Since the Volt was unveiled in January of 2007, many automakers have subsequently begun their own electric car programs. The most advanced so far is Nissan’s with its all-electric LEAF to be launched in late 2010.
Other automakers to commit to EVs have included Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, Mitsubishi and many others.
The last holdout has been Honda, choosing instead to focus on hydrogen fuel cells and gas-electric hybrids for advanced technology.
However, a new report out of the Nikkei suggests this last domino has fallen.
The report states that Honda is building an all-electric prototype that will be unveiled at the Tokyo Motor Show in October. The vehicle will be the size of a mini car, and likely a highway capable city car.
Apparently the company has been developing the car in secret and has not set a release date. The only timeline given is that the cars will be launched in the US sometime prior to 2015.
Source (AP)
This entry was posted on Saturday, August 22nd, 2009 at 9:42 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:43 am)So Honda finally gave in. Electrification is coming. The more the merrier.
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:48 am)Good to see Honda getting in the game.
We will soon see an EV truck offering from Korea as well. Access to low cost batteries. And a history of light truck production. This is the competitors best chance to catch the Volt. By going directly into the EV truck market.
=D~
+7
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:54 am)Obviously, electric is the way of the future and the future is now. It’s great that the Volt is leading the parade. GO VOLT! GO gm!
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:00 am)We are going to see some great choices to come in the electric car. I never thought I’d be saying that in my lifetime!
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:20 am)So besides GM, which major auto manufacturer is NOT working up a BEV?
Anyone .. . .
anyone . . .. .?
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:23 am)It may have been a more bitter pill for Honda to swallow than for others.
I read somewhere (maybe comments on this site) that Honda considers itself a maker of engines, more than a maker of cars. They make engines from boat engines to lawn mowers, the common theme in their produce line is the engine, and currently that’s an ICE.
Anyway let’s welcome Honda to the party the more competition the better.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:25 am)Which major auto manufacturer of EV is offering over 300 miles of range?
=D~
+6
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:28 am)Its been fun hanging around here the last two years watching the the auto companies shift to the electric cars , I agree the speed has been simply amazing Its hard to believe that my 5 yr. old son could be driving a car that he never has to stop at a gas station and has never heard the term OPEC .
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:32 am)Let’s hope it’s an EREV Type of machine… then they can keep making the engines that they have become so good at making. I like GM, but I love Honda.
-1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:35 am)If you mean plug in hybrids : quite a few.
If you mean series plug in hybrids: then only a handful, including GM.
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:38 am)One of the selling points of the Honda generator is quiet operation. Sounds like a good “fit”.
=D~
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:42 am)It would be fun to see an article that shows all the EVs now being planned as real products with real release dates. And a few paragraphs of overview on each one.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:44 am)Hello Bolivia, our new friend! Oops, your friends are already Asian? Then let me introduce you to our military…
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:48 am)Dollars to donuts, Honda’s EV announcement will not be a series hybrid.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:50 am)http://www.pluginamerica.org/plug-in-vehicle-tracker.html
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:51 am)The report says it is an “all electric”. I take from that no ER-EV, no generator, no ICE.
My GUESS is that Honda being last to the game (at least publicly) only had time to do a BEV. While if I’m right in post #5 an ER-EV might have fitted better with them being engine makers.
That likely means no deal for me, not when the competition includes the Volt.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:53 am)Most all of us familiar with this site and the EREV concept know about the issue of range anxiety with pure EV’s. What I haven’t heard from the makers of those cars is about cold weather operation of their batteries.
Isn’t the Volt’s ICE going to kick in immediately in cold weather to heat the battery? How are the EV’s going to deal with that issue or will people only drive them in areas where the temps only drop so far?
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:54 am)An all-electric PROTOTYPE? Well that means just about nothing. Before 2015? That means they don’t even have to start a real program until sometime in 2010.
No doubt Honda has been working on the electrification of the automobile for quite some time but I hope they are just holding their cards close to the vest. If they wait until 2015 they will be a generation behind.
+5
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:56 am)“The more the merrier” —I agree! However, I have to wonder if most companies simply want to get “a hand in the game” because the simplicity of a BEV keeps their initial risks & development costs to a minimum. Meanwhile, the added complexity of an E-REV and the huge risk of infringing GM’s multitude of patents is a technical & legal quagmire that I think most companies are already secretly wading into. And in several more years many if not most will also offer vehicles with some means of range extension.
One of the intriguing and somewhat non-credible aspects about BEVs is that (using GM’s $1,000/KWh as the present cost of Li-Ion batteries), most companies so far seem to think they can sell a BEV for less than (or equal to) what GM can sell the Volt for. Since ~32KWh is about the smallest battery a highway-capable BEV can use, that means the Volt’s ICE/Gen would have to cost ~$16,000 —i.e., as much as its battery— which I believe is roughly 2:1 too high for the Volt’s ICE/Gen.*
*But then I’ve always believed GM has also overstated the cost of the Volt battery by ~2:1, and that they’re going to surprise the automotive world with an MSRP for the base Volt that’s more like $32,000 than $40,000!
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:56 am)Wouldn’t have believed all this recent news a few years back. It is so encouraging. Now we just need a charging infrastructure, solar cells on homes, and better powerplants (I say mostly Nuclear).
The best thing is that the Volt is mass-produced and really works for most people. BEVs will mostly do great fleet work for a few years until the infrastructure is there and average people can buy them. Excepting, of course, those on this site who are already able to use a BEV (jealous of you but no way I can for a number of years).
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:56 am)If Honda were smart, they would do an E-REV instead of a BEV. With all their experience with generators, world class engine design and quality reputation, they would kill Volt sales and do an end run around Toyota. Fortunately for GM, Honda now seems to have pretty uninspired leadership and they just seem to follow Toyota’s lead. Toyota’s working on a EV, so follows Honda.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:00 am)Agreed. Unfortunately we only have GM and Mitsu (think it was them) on the boat right now, but more will come if the Volt succeeds.
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:00 am)Frank D
ABSOLUTELY! The more choices the better (and the less pressure on getting one of those first Gen Volts).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:01 am)If it came to that, we could just develop our own massive Lithium reserves…
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:02 am)jeff j
From your lips to God’s ear.
That’s a great thought about your son. We always want our kids to be better off than ourselves.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:03 am)Like for the other major auto makers this is “back to the future” for Honda as well… this year is exactly 10 years since Honda canceled their BEV program that produced the Honda EV Plus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_EV_Plus).
Found an interesting tid bit while trying to remember and had to look up what Honda’s offering was when California’s ZEV mandate had teeth. I was using sherry boschert’s *2006* book “plug-in hybrids: the cars that will recharge america” and starting at the bottom of page 201:
“Bloomberg News and CNNMoney.com ran separate stories on June 23, 2006 saying GM is developing a plug-in hybrid that will get more than 60mpg, citing unnamed sources inside the company. Publicly GM spokespeople declined to comment, but they didn’t deny it. The car may be shown at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2007 and could be for sale a year later. Another GM insider told EVWorld.com editor Bill Moore that GM not only was investigating plug-in hybrids but was taking another look at electric vehicles.”
Of course it was the Volt concept that was shown, the only misinfo was about when the vehicle would become available.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:06 am)Carcus1
Good link. It’s been a while since I’d visited there. I wish they had the Volt in the masthead though. They seem to have accurate info though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:10 am)“Good to see Honda getting in the game.” Right! And one reason is that Honda has an excellent record for styling cars with broad public appeal. Sorry, Nissan, but IMO the LEAF’s styling will present a major public acceptance problem.
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:11 am)David,
Cold will likely be a big issue with EV’s and Erev’s. The Volt shouldn’t need to be “engine warmed” if it’s plugged in though – it’s self warming from the electricity (I think).
-16
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:11 am)(click to show comment)
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:11 am)global warming
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:16 am)Was it just me, or were others getting anxious when the new article was posted a little later than usual? LOL. I need my FIX!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:21 am)When my younger son annouced about 2 years ago that his next car would be electric, I just smiled and shook my head at the naivete of youth.
Now I have to confess to being amazed by his foresight. Oh well, “Out of the mouths of babes…”
At least he inherited the family tendency to keep cars running forever, so maybe his 2000 Jeep will actually last until the happy day arrives.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:21 am)With their world leadership in small engines and generators.. plus their well earned reputation for quality and value.. you wonder why they suddenly got stupid and are offering a BEV and not an EREV..
God I miss Statik and his cold doses of reality.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:24 am)No problem. Just send in the CIA and replace the President. They did it right next door, and look how well it turned out.
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:27 am)Noel
Our family is in the same situation with 2 vehicles with a total of a third of a million miles on them. We’ve been blessed that duct tape hasn’t (yet) been necessary. We ARE, however, running short on bailing wire…
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+6
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:29 am)I respect Honda, but I love GM. We were at the Monterey Historics last weekend, and the awesome automotive heritage of GM was there for all to see. I didn’t see any Hondas, LOL.
I only wish that GM could learn how to use that heritage to inform its modern cars and marketing. There is an abiding love in this country for our automotive heritage, but the same people then go out and buy imports. How sad.
+6
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:31 am)ccombs,
I’m sure you meant to say WHEN the Volt succeeds (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:38 am)Herm,
Amen to missing statik. He could provide links like nobody’s business.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+11
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:40 am)Uh-oh. Riled up the Honda fans! Got to be careful. Don’t want them seeing Honda red! Silly Lyle, clearly if Honda is last to the table on something, it must be for a clever calculated reason. Soon their conservative lack of inspiration will allow them to take over the world!!
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:40 am)Let’s hope that that 60 mpg was equally prescient.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+7
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:51 am)Honda already has an EV — it’s the FCX Clarity. Replace the fuel cell with a battery pack and viola, you have a BEV.
Other than GM, Honda is/was probably further along the EV path than any other major.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:56 am)honda can’t afford the EREV technology as well as the other car companies trying to show that BEV is a way to go even charging infrastructure is still a dream…they simply have no time for EREV technology, GM has written their name all over EREV already…
-2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:01 pm)Yahh, Go Honda.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:08 pm)I’ve resisted the urge to buy Honda over the years. But I have to say, I’ve always considered them the gold standard in automotive quality. Having said that, I don’t think there’s any doubt that the big 3 have closed the gap over the past 10 years.
The “buy domestic” is an issue I struggle with. In this day of “globalization”, an international company like Honda has plants all over the world (including two in Ohio, one in Indiana, and one in Alabama. GM — all over as well (including Japan). I get confused just thinking about it.
But if it came down to “values”, that would be tough. Would my values tell me to buy from an international company that manufactures in the U.S. or from an international company that is government owned?
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:11 pm)I thought the Clarity is an EREV, with a fuel cell instead of an ice genset.. if that is the case then they are further along than even GM.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:14 pm)silly Combs
-1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:18 pm)nasaman:
I have to agree with your comment about “getting a hand in the game”.
To be a bit more blunt, announcing a prototype BEV, with the car to be released in 2015, seems to me to be a good, cheap, way to try to put a bit of “green” patina on the old corporation. “Greenwashing”, IMHO. And yes, a nice simple BEV is a lot easier and cheaper way to “greenwash” than going through the more complex and expensive development of a PHEV, even though the latter is a much more “real car”, again IMHO.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:21 pm)Yeah, plus STP, Bardahl and Marvel Mystery Oil, LOL. What was that magic stuff on the infomercials a few years ago? “Slick 50″? Where’s “Slick 50″, now that we need it. Send me a case right away!
+5
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:23 pm)The 2009 CR-V uses the Honda 2.4L with mileage estimated at 20 mpg city, 27 highway. The CR-V is Honda’s first in-house SUV. Prior to its arrival in ’96, Honda offered the Passport, which was a rebadged Isuzu Rodeo.
The Honda EV Plus was the first battery electric vehicle from a major automaker with non lead acid batteries. About 340 or so EV Plus models were produced and released. The EV Plus was taken out of production in 1999 when Honda announced the release of its first hybrid electric vehicle, the Honda Insight. The EV Plus was made to meet California Air Resources Board requirements for zero-emission vehicles, the same as General Motors’ new EV1, and to serve as a test bed for the pancake-style motor later used in Honda hybrids.
=D~
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:24 pm)Tagamet,
I agree that when the Volt or even an EV is plugged in it will be “self-warming”, but what then when you drive to your work in Nebraska in the dead of winter and it sits outside for 8 hours in the bitter cold (not plugged in?)
That’s why I moved to California in the first place!
best,
David
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:28 pm)Noel,
LOL, I’d forgotten about Slick 50! When I get the oil changed I do get the oil for geriatric vehicles, but that’s probably aimed more toward ancient citizens than ancient vehicles.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:31 pm)“Further along than GM”
Not.
The Honda Fuel cell program is in its infancy compared to project driveway. Look up the numbers of vehicles and how long they have been on the road. Project driveway already had 100 Chevy Equinox Fuel cell vehicles on the road before Honda delivered their first vehicle. Hondas plans include a total to be built that is less than GMs fleet that is on the road.
This does not include GMs other little EV project. The EV1.
GM is not behind on this.
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:33 pm)I knew it.
Honda killed the electric car!!!
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:34 pm)David,
Yeah, I spent an eternity in Omaha (2 years), and there were only 2 seasons – midwinter and midsummer. It changed seasons overnight.
And yes, parking at work without a plug in that cold will definitely need an engine warmup OR incredible insulation to hold the heat from the drive to work.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:35 pm)It was my understanding, based on an interview with one of the GM execs, that they were indeed developing an EV, but that it would come after the Volt.
Honda has a parallel hybrid and a fuel cell vehicle, so they are just filling out their lineup with an electric vehicle – no biggy. I see so many manufacturers losing their shirts pursuing EV’s right now, especially if they aren’t offering a high mileage ICE or hybrid.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:35 pm)More competitions means lower prices for the consumer. AND hopefully, some companies will step up and allow consumers to outight purchase an electric vehicle, without a lease requirement.
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:36 pm)If this were a poker game, my initial reaction would be that GM should ‘fold’. But after another cup of java, I now think GM should ‘raise’ and come out with the VOLT in 2011 and the All-Electric Cruze in 2012. Either way, the ‘pot’ is big enough for the consumer that we all win.
-1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:36 pm)PUMA
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:43 pm)Kia Soul (EV?)
Notice the sharp trailing edge on the wheel flairs. Looks like an EV.
http://garfwod.250free.com/kia_soul.jpg
=D~
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (12:56 pm)Suffering a Summer bout with a cold Carcus 1. Thought that I would “drop” by. Yes, makes my head spin too. Not surprised by anything that those Nipponese do actually. Suspected that a “Yamoto Battleship” was being hidden from prying eyes. The game is afoot! Now back to bed and reading and sleeping. Stay in contact: lwesson@hotmail.com
Regards— Higgins, The Lads and Mr. Death
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:11 pm)Charging infrastructure – here we’re talking about industrial sized banks of cheap sodium-sulphur batteries where gas stations used to be?
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:13 pm)Well maybe if GM sells enough cars it can pay us back and we can exit the “ownership” role. Maybe it’s a fantasy, but it sure would be nice.
i would also suggest that the international companies have traditionally had much cozier relationships with their respective governments than US manufacturers have had. Which has a lot to do with the onset of the current crisis, IMHO.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:15 pm)Did you happen to see the article yesterday on current ocean temperatures aroungd the world? Wait for it.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:16 pm)CorvetteGuy:
Man, I sure hope so.
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:19 pm)NO!!!!!! The Clarity is NOT an EREV. It is just an electric motor connected to a fuel cell. All the tech is in the fuel cell and the hydrogen storage. To be an EREV you must have a credible battery only range which is then Extended by a generator device. No battery range with the Clarity. The whole issue with BEVs and EREVs is the battery. And GM has done the best job of any of the car manufacturers on that point. Anybody can hook up a motor and a controller to a driveline. You can buy some really good ones from BRUSA off the internet and build your own EV. Only problem is, your battery system will suck compared to the Volt, even if you do an excellent job. This really is all about the batteries. The other problems have been adequately solved technically for quite a while.
As for fuel cells, GM’s fourth generation fuel cell is powerful enough, small enough, and CHEAP enough to make for a mass market car. But we still have no hydrogen production system that is economical and no distribution network and no cost effective storage solution. Don’t really expect to see fuel cell cars in large numbers until a cost effective liquid fueled fuel cell is developed.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:27 pm)Hey Higgins,
Sorry you’re under the weather. Best stay off your feet for a few days and off the running shoes for a few days longer than that.
If, however you cannot find the motivation to arise in the allotted time, one of these individuals should be able to provide inpiration:
http://www.freewebs.com/manwomans/Mr%20Death%20Tats/Death%20Does%20Hollywood.jpg
+7
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:28 pm)Honda has always considered itself as an engine manufacturer that was building a car around their main product. They did good at that and became successful as a car manufacturer.
That they did not want to go the BEV way sooner is no surprise. It was not a clever way to avoid PR spectacle, au contraire. It’s just that they would not jeopardize their main product (ICE) before they really felt they need to go a different way.
The fact that they start to act now is just one more sign that the winds of change are really blowing. They don’t want to be caught completely offguard.
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:45 pm)Sadly I think regulation is one of those things keeping EREV from other manufactures. A BEV can have whatever warranty they please. An EREV must meet much more stringent standards.
+6
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:48 pm)“The fact that they start to act now is just one more sign that the winds of change are really blowing. They don’t want to be caught completely offguard.”
__________________
Totally agree with this.
I doubt any of the majors with market share to lose ‘want’ to go towards BEV, but the fact that virtually all are “getting in position” is remarkable. It makes one wonder if this whole electric car fringe thing couldn’t snap over into mainstream much faster than any of us are anticipating.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:58 pm)I don’t think they gave in, they simply were not telling the true.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (1:59 pm)“LEAF’s styling will present a major public acceptance problem.”
Maybe in the US. But certainly not elsewhere in the world. Japan and Europe has a preference for hatchback cars. They sell well in some provinces of Canada as well.
The Versa is just a variation on the Renault Megane, a hotseller in France.
Worldwide, they will have a lot of customers for that car. And the interior space is surprising, you should try and sit in one, you’d be amazed.
-2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (2:03 pm)Not to name any names but some people have maintained that it was a mistake to get excited about the Volt and to consider that GM was “leapfrogging” anything; that other, possibly more nimble, manufacturers would, inevitably, join in with their own product announcements and might beat GM to market.
On the horizon, we have:
The Leaf
The iMiev
The Honda
The BYD e6
The PHEV Prius
and probably others that I’ve forgotten. For all the ballyhoo, GM’s product isn’t appreciably closer than many others.
+5
Aug 22nd, 2009 (2:39 pm)Buy American and you won’t regret it.
-2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (2:57 pm)Don’t worry about Honda, they are already selling tons of Insights at $20k. They were smart enought to go after the affordable green market segment at the perfect time. Now they are making profit, which after all, is the purpose of a car company.
-2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (2:59 pm)Honda is not stupid. There is a reason every other car manufacturer is NOT building and EREV. They aren’t profitable. And the “green” consumer wants a BEV. You don’t think they do market research before making these decisions.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (3:01 pm)Here it is. Oceans hottest since we started recording.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090820/ap_on_sc/us_sci_warm_oceans
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (3:04 pm)The fuel cell program was just a carrot by Bush to keep green peace and others off his back while he did absolutely nothing to help the country with our “addiction to oil” (his words no less).
The Japanese naively bought into it too, apparently, when they looked at their outrageous fuel prices and thought they might get stuck licensing the technology from a greedy American company who jerks them around, similar to Toyota getting jerked around by Chevron who has the patent for the NiMH batteries that they use in their hybrids.
-1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (3:05 pm)[...] and communicating most the Chevrolet Volt automobile car. Here is the example post: Honda Finally Gives in: Will Unveil Electric Car This Fall | GM … Posted in Uncategorized | Tags: a-certain-number, about-the-chevrolet, and-discussion, [...]
Aug 22nd, 2009 (3:16 pm)The last two vehicles that I bought that needed engines, (I resell) had slick 50 stickers on the back windows.
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (3:20 pm)I think they did very recent market research and that resulted in an O CRAP MOMENT. And now the fastest way to catch up is to go BEV. However I firmly believe they are going full speed with their own E-REV. And to stick my neck way out I think the 2015 date is actually their target date for an E-REV.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (3:24 pm)Thanks for the link, Carcus1.
After looking all of them over, I like the Volt more and more.
Happy trails to you ’til me meet again.
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (3:32 pm)Look at the specs on Altairnano’s lithium titanium oxide battery. The problem of extreme cold temperatures will be solved by others in the near future. None the less, GM has the right idea in Volt engineering; just one more sign that GM is on the right track.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (3:53 pm)You’re right that the Clarity is not an EREV. FWIW I don’t think Herm was just saying it was, just that he thought it was.
But I don’t see the FCX Clarity as being “just an electric motor connected to a fuel cell” any more than a Volt is “just an electric motor connected to a battery and a genset”. There is a lot of technology in both the motors and the drive trains both on the efficiency and performance sides. Most posters on this site are looking forward to the superior drive of the Volt, and, while I haven’t driven a Clarity, those who have say its handling and performance are outstanding. (Hint to Lyle: Maybe you need a road trip to LA). There are a lot of technological challenges in getting EV drive trains operating efficiently and well.
FWIW I think that Nissan may have the best battery technology at the moment if you’re looking at performance and cost. But keep in mind that GM is not really in the battery development business and it hasn’t suggested that this will change.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:16 pm)Most automobile manufacturer’s have long been developing EV’s. this should be obvious from the EV1, RAV4, etc. Just like GM, they all have been moving along with development. GM decided to come out with an early announcement of the Volt; smart planning IMHO; get the public’s attention and backing for when they start selling them. Honda and the others don’t really have to announce early to get into the market; just do the advertising close to introduction of their models. GM in so many ways is doing the industry a big favor by its early announcement by getting consumers ready for EV.
As far as the BEV and EREV comment, IMHO, I believe that they are just jumping ahead of GM, or so they think.
Looks like battery technology is moving fast forward and a BEV with 150 mi. AER will be possible in a few years. When you look at where the majority of buyers are located (that being urban areas, there decision to offer BEV’s first makes sense. They target engineer of the electric’s now and then incorporate their expertise in ICE to produce an EREV later. GM, have taken the other track, and with their flex-fuel concept, have looked ahead to the day when other fuels will power the extended range engine; when the world supply of petroleum dwindles and we are forced to use bio fuels or some other fuel.
The advantages of electrical propulsion over carbon based engines is obvious; as far as pollution, both CO2, NOx, etc, and waste heat. IMHO, the real advantage to electric lies in the fact that no energy is used when the vehicle is stationary, the ability to recover some of the energy through regeneration, and its immediate torque. Together with the technological advances in solar cell generation of electricity will assure us all of a source of energy that is cheap as long as the sun shines. Running our ICE engines while stuck in a traffic jams and at stop lights/signs is stupid. EV,s will eliminate this and many other problems.
Hope you all do not mind the tirade but be sure I will go into this one ever chance I get. I hope it’s not to late for us to reverse global warming effect of our wasteful way of life.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:20 pm)The car buying public is finicky..
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:30 pm)You forgot the BYD F3DM, its a serial BEV similar to the Volt, but the engine can also drive the wheels directly at hwy speeds.. it should make happy those that worry about mpg in charge sustaining mode. Cost is $16k in China, 62 mile electric range (probably 30 at american speeds). It is on sale now but only to government agencies.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:32 pm)Goes along with what I said in a post above this one. I repeated a lot of what you say here, Jeff.
Thanks for the info on the Honda-EV-Plus; just goes to show that they all have been planning on selling EV’s. It just wasn’t the right time until now. If they were talking about 60 AER back then, you can bet we will see higher numbers now. GM just put things into a natural order; give us EREV first and then a BEV. A lot of the development cost for the Volt can be used in the BEV design.
Its not at all surprising that others would go directly to BEV rather than EREV. Right now, the market for BEV will be city drivers. The way I see it, there is a place for extended range vehicles and I for one believe that we will find the Volt to be a perfectly acceptable vehicle for cross country trips.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:32 pm)Honda will produce a smooth, elegant, sophisticated car. It will be a good car that will raise the bar for the rest of the industry.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:37 pm)LEAF’s styling is a bit funky, but I like it
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:37 pm)GM would blow EVERYONE’S mind if they somehow got the sticker price down to $32,000 for the 2011 Volt. No doubt about it. Toyota and Honda execs would freak out. So would OPEC, Big Oil, and the Wall Street oil schemers.
With the $7,500 tax credit, that would make the Volt price tag around $24,500. An affordable car for most people. Who knows, maybe the government will revive “Cash for Clunkers” in 2011 and the price could go down another $4,500. Imagine getting a Volt for $20,000.
Then GM would have a REALLY big problem. Ramping up their production facilities fast enough to keep up with demand … especially if gas prices are up over $4/gallon again. I’m sure Fritz and Bob Lutz dream of “nice problems” like that.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:39 pm)Synthetic oil, as from Mobil, actually works.
Still need frequent oil changes, though, to get rid of the dirt.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:42 pm)I guess honda has seen the writing on the wall, to quote the biblical phrase. Now the race is on to produce the best range extended electric vehicle. If the playing field is level, Ford, GM, and
Chrysler should do ok. That means no outrageous union demands or better still no demands at all, and no government interference.
We’ve tried it both ways, sociopaths running the auto business and sociopaths running the auto unions, neither has worked for the better of the workers and the country.
It’s time to invent a third way where the workers have an interest in the car companies doing well. Each union member should be required to buy stocks in the companies each year and the board of directors should come from the union and the owners.
This way there’s an incentive to make the companies prosper for the share holders and the workers.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:48 pm)but it is better.
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:49 pm)Yep, just buy American. There is NO tangible difference in quality anymore between foreign and domestic. And Buick, Mercury, and Cadillac, just to name a few, are in or at the top in many JD Powers quality and satistfaction surveys.
The PROFITS however, go to the foreign owned company, if that’s what you buy, even if the car is made in America.
And the point was correctly made that foreign governments (especially Japan) have a history of not only giving MASSIVE aid to thier companies, but shutting out competition from American companies.
Isn’t a little turnabout fair play, especially during our economic time of need?
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:51 pm)oh yee of little faith
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:52 pm)Honda is wild about hydrogen and fuel cells. Hydrogen fuel cells may well be on the way, but I bet you don’t see many of them until 2020. I think hydrogen fuel cells will probably used first for delivery trucks like Fedex and UPS have. The big companies can afford a small fleet of them at least. Fleet sales of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will reassure the public that they are safe and won’t blow up like the Hindenberg blimp.
GM better keep up with their R&D on hydrogen fuel cells though. Never know when a big breakthrough might happen that will dramatically lower the cost of the technology. Cost, making the fuel cell last 150,000+ miles, and infrastructure are the main problems with fuel cells. Once you hear that Honda can mass produce a $40,000 Clarity fuel cell car, GM better be ready to respond with something similar in a year or two.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:58 pm)Ed M
Guilty as charged – but it was brief.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 22nd, 2009 (4:59 pm)that’s one possibility I guess- hard to predict something I think won’t happen even on a moderate scale for at least 15 years.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:00 pm)I am to cautious to say when, although I think it highly probable.
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:00 pm)GM has “leapfrogging” successfully here. The Volt and all its Hype is something to get excited about. They announced their program ahead of everyone and have clearly shown through persistent and continued effort, the first EREV. Modern development techniques allow manufactures to bring their products to the market much quicker than in the past, as with GM’s parallel development of related segments of the Volt. It takes years of development to come out with a new innovative product. Once the components are designed, it takes several years to manufacture the machinery to make the car.The reason for all the excitement expressed here is because GM is taking a leadership position with regard to EV. Looking back at the historical account, we can see many of the automotive manufacturers efforts to develop an EV spans decades. It’s safe to say that many of them have been working towards the day when we can finally see them at dealer’s showrooms. And I am glad to see that Honda like all the others are in the game. We all can compare the Volt to what the other companies have come out with and make a judgment about the individual products. It seems to me that we know a lot more about the Volt than other EV’s! Thanks to Lyle!
There will be a few start-ups bringing their products to market before GM sells the Volt; I feel a lot safer considering purchase of the Volt than I do about the others. GM is a world leader in auto manufacturing. They back their warranties. They have closed the gab on quality. And the Volt is one awesome looking vehicle.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:07 pm)Like any bleeding edge tech, I think the price will initially be sky high, but it’ll also fall just as dramatically. The number of available vehicles will be low as well (initially), which also contributes to a high price tag. Just my guess. My HOPE is that GM has the, ahem, “confidence” to put a decent number of vehicles on the road that first year.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:24 pm)Perhaps Honda perfecting the BEV systems firstly might be their proper order of development before adding in the genset.
Have you ever heard a Honda 3000iu generator run?
I almost didn’t one day, and I was standing twenty feet from it.
GM can make engines run quietly too.
I was at an antique car event about 11 years ago where, as the various old vehicles came into the parking lot area where they were to be judged in a very minor antique car “club” I used to be affiliated with.
Coming toward me was a 1949 Pontiac. It came closer and closer. I became more and more amazed, until it was within 20 feet of me when I became absolutely astonished.
The engine was running, but the car made NO SOUND WHATSOEVER, excepting for the tiny pebbles on the pavement that the tires drove over!
GM can make a nearly-completely silent engine like that, so, I am convinced that the same can be done for the Volt.
Honda makes a generator that runs with the noise of a cat’s purr about two feet from you (20 feet from it). E-REV would not at all be a problem for Honda to make, it would seem to me.
But Honda is a small auto company as I was told by the salesperson that sold me my ’05 Element (in ’05). They likely will indeed need all of those five or six years to put an E-REV on the road, but you can surely bet that they will be going E-REV eventually like GM is doing.
For me, this is not a competition to see who is first (or who is best) it seems to me.
It is a competition to get all OEM’s to focus squarely right here on this extremely valuable site, so that all the distracting “huff ‘n puff” marketing and false-belief-systems “bs” regarding electrification that the generally nontechnical and uninformed-media “pools” on this internet, can be appropriately discredited, reduced to a minimum, and ultimately eliminated altogether.
That is critically-needed so that highly responsible Boards of Directors can begin to see that the various discussions here from professionally-minded and dedicated thinkers might allow them to focus on not only what is seriously and feasibly- appropriate for their customer, but when and how to move forward toward E-REV like GM is doing it. (Pardon another run-on sentence).
Welcome Honda to electrification and ultimately E-REV.
+3
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:28 pm)You’re right Tall Pete! Most of the world will accept the LEAF’s styling —but it’ll not be a hit in the US, where styling has ruled for at least since the 1950s —the LEAF’s “Catfish nose” (not my description, but one I agree with) will make it very likely to fail here in spite of its great interior & OK rear end styling.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:30 pm)Charlie H,
Those same nameless people said that the Volt would never be produced. I suspect that they were wrong about that, too.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:39 pm)______________________________________________________
“The only timeline given is that the cars will be launched in the US sometime prior to 2015″
2014 – 2010 = 4 years behind everyone else ….That’s a LONG TIME!!!
Honda has just confirmed that they plan to sit out the start of the Electric Car Revolution.
______________________________________________________
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:53 pm)we need to get used to the styling of the nose of a pure BEV.. after all there is no ICE under that hood and it will look different.. probably all BEVs will end up looking like larger versions of the iMiev.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:53 pm)A bank of Sodium Sulphur batteries of 1 Megawatt size could power 500 homes when used in conjunction with massive wind turbines (which only produce power when there is enough wind). These huge battery banks will provide the power to hundreds of homes when the wind is not providing power to the grid.
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2008/03/sodium-sulfite.html
Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:55 pm)dont put synthetic in old cars that have used dino oil for a long time.. it may loosen all the crud and clog up the oil passages. I got a bad scare doing that once.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (6:01 pm)a recent announcement about generating hydrogen from urea is very interesting.. a cartridge containing 5lbs of solid urea has enough hydrogen to give you a range of 2400 miles.. both Honda, Toyota and GM promise that they can bring the cost of the fuel cells down to practical levels with mass production. Very practical for a range extender.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (6:12 pm)Be still my beating heart.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (6:26 pm)I am inspired!!! Cough!———-and reminded of a story at a time building some bridge at a well tempered and most personal 102º. I thought that I was back home in England when Lord Dancepole introduced me to some, well, ah, most interesting gifted companions in his rather, elite company. The Nipponese thought of my delirious smile as a sign of my contentment helping their glorious Emperor Hirohito. Now back to bed and rest and maybe falling back to a faint smile. “Ahhh, you rike the electric HONDA!!!!”———Higgins & Co. …thank you!
Aug 22nd, 2009 (6:49 pm)Funny.
Might be time for a little quinine. I’m just about to head out in search of some, myself (mixed in appropriately, of course).
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (8:22 pm)So, to summarize:
1. BEV, pure electric vehicles, are easier to design and manufacture
2. They are beautifully simple designs that have fewer parts
3. Battery manufacturing plants are springing up worldwide
4. GM holds so many patents on EREV that no car maker may want to make an EREV
5. They are fun to drive, instantly accessing the max torque from a dead stop
6. Every major auto maker is now on board with making a pure electric vehicle
This is a win, win situation for the American (North American) people and the environment. It took a long time to get here but I am very glad we’re finally here.
Goodbye foreign oil addiction! Goodbye to paying the salaries of terrorists!
Aug 22nd, 2009 (8:30 pm)Honda has the wildly sucessfull Insight and this coming out next year:
http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-z/
They won’t be sitting anything out….
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:21 pm)“Sometime ****prior**** to 2015″ … would likely include periodic announcements along the way.
You can’t rush designing-in dependability, which GM and Honda are both very well known for in their designs.
It’s all pretty exciting.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:25 pm)WOW, when you put it that way…
I have 600K on the three vehicles that I currently own!
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:28 pm)There is no question Honda is top notch in quality.
My issue is with not liking the styling / design coupled with very expensive parts and difficultly of repair. Honestly I don’t understand the Honda fans.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:31 pm)I can’t put my finger on the quite right now, but I’ve heard from one of the Volt engineers that the Volt will indeed heat or cool the batteries when plugged in.
If the Volt is left outside in the extreme cold unplugged, it will start the ICE immediately at power up. Warm up will be quick because any extra ICE capacity will be directed to the electric heaters. Once up to temp the ICE will shut down and the car will continue on battery power.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:34 pm)They may be finicky.
But I expect the price of fuel WILL rebound when the economy picks up and we’ll be back to $4 gas. That’ll drive people to EVs. I bet the EREV will prove far more popular than the BEV.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:39 pm)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNar81i4CWs
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:41 pm)Actually they’re not:
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/29/honda-insight-sales-withering-with-competition-from-prius/
The Insight is only a few thousand less than the Prius.
Having driven both, I maintain the Prius is worth every penny penny of that difference.
It appears the buying public agrees…
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:42 pm)Matthew_B
That just goes to show that there is always someone worse off! If we pool our vehicles before Monday, we could almost get a Volt for the Clunker’s cash. I suspect that it doesn’t work that way….
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:46 pm)Unfortunately two of my vehicles don’t qualify because they’re way too fuel efficient.
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:54 pm)Matt,
If there just has to be a difference in mpg, maybe you can get a Hummer!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:59 pm)Matt_B
That sounds right. A very fancy bit of engineering.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:32 pm)So then the efforts of Bob Lutz to bring the VOLT to market has been a positive, if not exactly profitable.
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:33 pm)Re: my comment above in the footnote (at 10:56 am on 8/22) that “….I’ve always believed GM has also overstated the cost of the Volt battery by ~2:1″ (i.e., at $1k/kWh or $16k for the completed battery).
I just noticed this evening that CNET REVIEWS, based reportedly on an analysis of GM’s new Brownstown battery factory production capabilities & remarks by Fritz Henderson, also estimates the Volt’s battery will cost $8k (not $16k).
/ http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10311119-48.html
+4
Aug 22nd, 2009 (10:38 pm)elegant, oh kind of like the new insight, haven’t heard anything elegant about that POS yet. lmao!!!!
+2
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:14 pm)omnimoeish,
Yes, well said.
That’s why they call them FOOL SELLs. They are meant to deceive us.
+1
Aug 22nd, 2009 (11:36 pm)LRGVProVolt,
I agree, and also point out something to consider, which I hope GM (and others) will do to ease apprehension and acceptance of EVs.
An ICE has a maximum efficiency of 20%. In other words, an ICE automobile may be 200 to 300 HP, but only 40 to 60 HP are delivered to the wheels as torque.
By contrast, a typical “off-the-shelf” electric motor of any type (without exotic materials) has an efficiency between 90% and 96%.
So, the equivalent HP needed by an EV, to produce the same torque as an ICE automobile, is 45 to 67 HP (at 90% efficiency) and only 42 to 63 HP (at 96% efficiency).
Electric motors cannot (and should not) be equated with the same HP ratings as an ICE without taking into account an ICE’s low efficiency and conversely an electric motor’s high efficiency.
Likewise, gasoline has a specific energy of approximately 47 MJ/kg, but only 9.5 MJ/kg are delivered to the wheels as torque. Therefore, an electrical energy storage medium (ultracapacitor, batteries, etc.) would only need to reach a specific energy of 10.6 MJ/kg for an electric motor with 90% efficiency or 9.9 MJ/kg for an electric motor with 96% efficiency.
The EV trumps an ICE vehicle, except for electrical energy storage. The good news, as you pointed out, is that electrical storage technology is rapidly changing for the better.
An ICE has the advantage of a high-energy density fuel found in petroleum (the 47 MJ/kg I mentioned earlier), but cannot fully take advantage of its entire energy content…and never will.
Barring a breakthrough in thermo-electric conversion, we’ve squeezed as much performance from an internal combustion engine as we ever will.
In fact, an ICE’s system performance (20%) is pathetic compared to that of an electic motor (90% to 96%), and that’s something most people don’t fully comprehend. Therefore, the auto companies need to point that out.
Likewise, if there is ever a breakthrough in “room temperature” superconductivity (273 K or higher), an electric motor’s mass will plummet for the same performance, making an EV all the more attractive.
Many people wrongly think that an ICE automobile is using most of the energy content in gasoline, when nothing could be further from the truth. So, we consume tremendous amounts of gasoline to move us from point A to point B.
Don’t get me wrong. After 100 years, the ICE is a marvel of engineering, but it’s been the only game in town…until now.
We’re witnessing the advent of something that is going to profoundly change the world – the introduction of mass-produced electric vehicles for personal use that has, until now, been hindered by the lack of progress in the development of massive electrical energy storage.
For comparison of specific energies:
Clock Spring (or Torsion Spring) = 0.0003 MJ/kg
Standard Capacitor (0.3 F to 0.6 F) = 0.002 MJ/kg
Lead Acid Battery = 0.11 to 0.18 MJ/kg
Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) Battery = 0.22 to 0.43 MJ/kg
Lithium Ion Battery (Present Energy Density) = 0.4 to 0.6 MJ/kg
Lithium Ion Battery (Predicted Energy Density) = 0.54 to 0.9 MJ/kg
Ultracapacitor (31 F from EEStor, 2008) = 1 MJ/kg
Lithium Ion Battery (with nanowires) = 2.54 to 2.72 MJ/kg
Gasoline Benchmark (20% ICE system efficiency) = 9.9 to 10.6 MJ/kg
Lignite Coal = 14 to 19 MJ/kg
Bituminous Coal = 23 to 35 MJ/kg
Ethanol = 27 to 30 MJ/kg
Gasoline = 46.5 to 48.3 MJ/kg
Methane (Natural Gas) = 50 to 55.5 MJ/kg
Hydrogen = 143 MJ/kg
Enriched Uranium (3.5% U235 in Light Water Reactor) = 3.456 TJ/kg
Nuclear Fission (of U235 in Nuclear Power Plants) = 88.25 TJ/kg
As you can see, massive electrical energy storage reaches far beyond automotive applications.
Electrical power generation will be able to take advantage of nighttime (off peak) energy storage, where today, coal and nuclear power plants cannot throttle back sufficiently to match the dropoff in baseload demand.
In other words, the steam turbine (and generator) spins, whether or not there’s load to match generation, and presently we can’t shut these plants down to conserve that energy (in coal or uranium). Typical “blackstart” times are the following:
Natural gas-fired (Combined Cycle) Plants: 30 minutes
Nuclear (Fission) Plants: 5 to 8 hours
Coal-fired Plants: 8 to 10 hours
Another point to consider is that it doesn’t matter whether we’re discussing a Toyota Prius or a Dodge Durango SUV. They both have the same efficiency when in ICE mode exclusively – maximum 20%, but more often than not 17%.
The issue of the ICE auto versus the EV hinges on mass, energy density/specific energy (MJ/kg), utility (end use), and system efficiency (20% vs. 90% to 96%).
The EV will eventually win over those apprehensive about range.
To think, we currently burn fuel to go get fuel, whereas electrical energy is readily available everywhere hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from the generation source…in a millisecond, and has been for more than 60 years thanks to rural electrification.
People will have the freedom to use their electrical energy for moving to a “desired” location, as opposed to making a “required” trip to a filling station to get the energy needed to go to their “desired” location.
The smart money is on the EV (all variants).
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:00 am)Honda are known for their quality. if nothing else, you know the car will be well made. though i cant say much for their time line… 6 years from now?
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:28 am)Very nice Carcus1! The sound of rippling water, the tring of a harp, and wind chimes: I’ll add the link to my desktop so I can listen now and then. Thanks!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:37 am)This one looks like a two seater! Pretty nice looking design at that. I agree they won’t be sitting out for long but if they are starting now to product that EREV it will take four or five years to finally put it on the market. It just takes that long to design, engineer, and build or convert a plant to produce it. No doubt it doesn’t take any decent manufacturer long to catch up to the leaders.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:42 am)Give it time CorvetteGuy, it will be profitable in a few years, maybe sooner!!!
-3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:00 am)Sure Honda wants a piece of the BEV market. Honda doesn’t
want to miss out on selling to idiots who believe that ultra
expensive batteries which take hours to recharge are the way
to go instead of fuel cells.
The FCX Clarity is a true electric car, people need to get that in their heads already. The gas/electric Volt is a hybrid, it is neither a gas car nor is it an electric car because it burns gas.
Toyota came out with the first successful hybrid, did it not? The
Insight may be ugly, but wasn’t it a successful car for Honda that
GM essentially didn’t compete with? In 2015, nobody will want a
BEV or an EREV because fuel cell cars will be available and
more likely than not there will be more hydrogen refueling infrastructure by then. A fuel cell car at a decent hydrogen refueling
station can be recharged/refueled in 3 minutes. That car then has
a range of between 200 and 500 miles roughly. Between 200 and 500 is not 40 thank you very much.
The technology to collect hydrogen from water and other sources
potentially is maturing rapidly. Electrolysis is not the only way thank
you very much. The Chinese are experimenting with catalysts that
attack the oxygen in water to release the hydrogen. Hydrogenase, which is found in blue green algae, can be used to release hydrogen from water. Use a hydrogen carrier such as a metal hydride, hydrnol, etcetera depending on your needs once you have
hydrogen. There is a lot of wind capacity where wind mills alone could be used to produce all the hydrogen that is needed by a hydrogen economy because wind mills often generate when there is low demand.
The Volt will be in the $40k range. When the first fuel cell car hits
the market in 2015, it will be in the $30k or less price range. If fuel cell cars were mass produced today, they would be in the $50k price range.
If Honda is bothering at all with BEVs and EREVs then it is a truly sad day. BEVs barring a LOT of breakthroughs are a waste of time and money, same for EREVs quite frankly. Honda should focus 100% on getting the Clarity beyond the prototype stage and into the hands of millions of people.
It disgusts me that people are so deeply prejudiced against fuel cells. It disgusts me a lot.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:02 am)“The Honda Fuel cell program is in its infancy compared to project driveway. Look up the numbers of vehicles and how long they have been on the road. Project driveway already had 100 Chevy Equinox Fuel cell vehicles on the road before Honda delivered their first vehicle. Hondas plans include a total to be built that is less than GMs fleet that is on the road. ”
Uh, no.
Lets assume that the fuel cell equinox is actually comparable to the Clarity (which it really isn’t), or that Honda wasn’t leasing the FCX in 2005, or building the original FCX in 1999, and just deal with your claims. Clarity leasing began July 2008. GM hoped to start rolling out the first of the 100 project driveway noxes out by fall of 2007. But they didn’t hit the target.
Someone named Lyle at GM-Volt.com pointed out that they didn’t even start until 2008:
http://gm-volt.com/2007/10/17/the-garage-doors-have-opened-on-project-driveway/
No idea when (or if) they actually hit 100.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:14 am)“No battery range with the Clarity.”
It does have a battery:
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/battery.aspx
I’m having trouble tracking down the size, but I’m sure Honda could manage to put more of them in if that would make you feel better about it.
I find it strange that you think that they hydrogen fuel cell is trivial but the battery is some monumental leap. Perhaps it is because you think silly things like “…. GM’s fourth generation fuel cell is… CHEAP enough to make for a mass market car.”
Uh, no. Apparently GM has a 35KWh battery in their noxes… that alone makes it EXPENSIVE… forget about the actual expensive parts.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:24 am)Thanks for the personal attack. But I guess at least you didn’t just click the ‘negative’ and move on. Sour grapes.
I guess there was nothing in my post that could actually be refuted?
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:29 am)Who says GM is not working on a BEV….Lyle’s good, but he doesn’t know everything….I bet they are.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:44 am)With NGMCO having the new battery R&D center it’s a certainty that they are working on pure EV. And as CGuy mentioned, it could be a BEV Cruze.
=D~
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:56 am)Wouldn’t that cost a lot more to develop than a BEV option for the Volt?
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:05 am)“To think, we currently burn fuel to go get fuel, whereas electrical energy is readily available everywhere hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from the generation source…in a millisecond, and has been for more than 60 years thanks to rural electrification”
_______________________________________________________
Now if they would just pull that amazing infrastructure the last 20 feet to the curb.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:26 am)from Green Car Journal. “The Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell was given its 2008 Green Car Vision Award®,2 the first time the magazine has recognized a limited production vehicle for its forward-thinking technologies. The Equinox Fuel Cell won the award over several nominees, including the Honda FCX Clarity and Toyota Prius Plug-In.”
Everything I have read has been very positive on the Equinox Fuel Cell program and from what I can find, GM did finish all 100 of its Equinox Fuel cell vehicles. They officially announced limited deliveries in Nov 2007 and began a bigger rollout in the first quarter of 08.
The FCX has won design awards too but it is not somthing where Honda is way out in front on this one.
On the Honda Website, they list June 2008 as a first delivery.
I saw a video of one of the deliveries last summer and the reporter stated that the production of FCX was now goint to be limited to 24 hand built vehicles. Probably a casualty of the recession.
The honda press room still states that 200 should be built. I am not sure which total # to believe. Most of the press statements on the Honda site are dated.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:37 am)I disagree. Aerodynamic performance is very important today because the battery technology has not yet matured. In 2015 it will be a whole new ballgame in terms of electric range and price.
/We are in a transition period but it is unclear whether it will last 2 years or 10. The fact is that 300 mile electric range at reasonable cost is coming. When is the only question.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:39 am)I’ve always loved the idea of fuel cell and battery tech to drive our cars. I think eventually we might even see a fuel cell range extender once onboard storage is improved. I have a similar opinion of the battery only option.
Others find the infrastructure for either one to be a challenge, but that is a capital and legislative challenge not a technological one. Based on what reports I’ve seen, the battery seems to be finally coming into its own. It think the adoption of hydrogen is directly related with the speed with which batteries increase in range. The slower batteries advance the more likely hydrogen fuel cells will begin to replace gasoline and diesel range extenders. I do not see this happening before 2020 though and only then if gasoline prices top $10.00 gallon here in the US.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:36 am)GTX at 11:11 on Aug 21.
I don’t think we can compare all company pathways and development pathways in the same ways and timelines.
It was a stroke of well-timed brilliance for GM to “think out of the box” for very many reasons, in addition to the fact that they had no other choices to be open to educate Voltec.
Volt is not anything like anything else in automotive history.
So, GM had no choice but to start an open set of revelations regarding what it is. Media always told me “NO,YOU ARE TOO TECHNICAL”, when I would offer to provide them with technical “psa’s” about potentially financially-devastating DIY practices. They were not only unappreciative, they actually seemed to indicate that I would somehow threaten their advertising revenues, it seemed.
To educate the public as to what the Volt technology will need for us to understand about it, from the “real customer/real public” perspectives, has been happening on this site, and, only on this site.
Since battery technologies have briskly advanced in the last 18 months, there is not likely anything inaccurate with what Honda has represented regarding what was current 18 months ago in the context of then.
It seems to me that all different companies are at all different stages of experimental involvement based on what compounded (and entrenched) developmental pathways they had previously been convinced to follow.
I know of one company that democratizes its development cycle. The problem that can happen with that is that your potential to get ten times as many “too many cooks spoil the broth” scenarios, especially when none of those cooks knows what has previously gotten to go into it, will go into it, and/or even if the consumer wants “broth” in the first place.
The general direction of electrification is the race to cut carbon. Air temperature going up too high kills crops. Ocean temperature going too high to kill fish ultimately. Too much media has, and still does, goes toward consuming ourselves out of our very existence in producing carbon, all too often for frivolous production of just too many things.
We had better focus on what the real race is about, and it is for our very existence. As President Clinton said, “We had better learn the lesson of Easter Island”. While Easter Island was named for a reason I do not know, the tragedy was that there was a population of an estimated 250,000 inhabitants that starved to death from obsessive-compulsive leadership that ultimately burned everything in sight for their rituals, INCLUDING THEIR FISHING BOATS!!
Carbon dioxide is burning our “fishing boats” rather quickly. The various non-technical leaderships in office worldwide are inadvertently distracting our attention away from that with political rituals of comfortable-denial, with commercial as well as their fiduciary pressures to sell something; product, ideology, etc.
Where Honda Motors needs to do it their way without a distracting public involvement, it is simply because that is the way that it needs to work for them. The “last” are not at all likely to be the “worst” as far a BEV is concerned.
Bottom line for carbon-friendliness IMTO:
WTW = What’s the Warranty?
GM, from my technical perspective, is looking like the E-REV BEST, and, based on the 10yr./150,000 mile warranty package, they are going to be, as well as stay, the VERY best at E-REV.
Electric horsepower of a different color.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:36 am)It’s great to see that the EV-1 team’s knowledge and experience hasn’t gone to waste. Back then, GM probably just didn’t have the backbone to fight against big oil with the EV-1. It couldn’t have been just battery range because they had developed a type of EREV technology for the EV-1 before they crushed them all. Flash forward to recent history when big oil was the loudest voice calling for GM bankruptcy (or being scrapped for parts). The oil companies have time and again shown us that they are enemies of freedom and a healthy economy, enemies of the auto industry, enemies of our children.
/Welcome to the fight against big oil’s controlling our economy.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:20 am)Ed, you definitely are onto something here but you don’t have all the info yet.
See the movie called The Corporation and you’ll see who the true sociopath is.
Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:29 am)@CorvetteGuy, Lutz’ efforts a net positive? Absolutely, regarding the Volt at least.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:30 am)GTX at 11:11 on Aug 21.
I don’t think we can compare all company pathways and development pathways in the same ways and timelines.
It was a stroke of well-timed brilliance for GM to “think out of the box” for very many reasons, in addition to the fact that they had no other choices to be open to educate Voltec.
Volt is not anything like anything else in automotive history.
So, GM had no choice but to start an open set of revelations regarding what it is. Media always told me “NO,YOU ARE TOO TECHNICAL”, when I would offer to provide them with technical “psa’s” about potentially financially-devastating DIY practices. They were not only unappreciative, they actually seemed to indicate that I would somehow threaten their advertising revenues, it seemed.
To educate the public as to what the Volt technology will need for us to understand about it, from the “real customer/real public” perspectives, has been happening on this site, and, only on this site.
Since battery technologies have briskly advanced in the last 18 months, there is not likely anything inaccurate with what Honda has represented regarding what was current 18 months ago in the context of then.
It seems to me that all different companies are at all different stages of experimental involvement based on what compounded (and entrenched) developmental pathways they had previously been convinced to follow.
I know of one company that democratizes its development cycle. The problem that can happen with that is that your potential to get ten times as many “too many cooks spoil the broth” scenarios, especially when none of those cooks knows what has previously gotten to go into it, will go into it, and/or even if the consumer wants “broth” in the first place.
The general direction of electrification is the race to cut carbon. Air temperature going up too high kills crops. Ocean temperature going too high to kill fish ultimately. Too much media has, and still does, goes toward consuming ourselves out of our very existence in producing carbon, all too often for frivolous production of just too many things.
We had better focus on what the real race is about, and it is for our very existence. As President Clinton said, “We had better learn the lesson of Easter Island”. While Easter Island was named for a reason I do not know, the tragedy was that there was a population of an estimated 250,000 inhabitants that starved to death from obsessive-compulsive leadership that ultimately burned everything in sight for their rituals, INCLUDING THEIR FISHING BOATS!!
Carbon dioxide is burning our “fishing boats” rather quickly. The various non-technical leaderships in office worldwide are inadvertently distracting our attention away from that with political rituals of comfortable-denial, with commercial as well as their fiduciary pressures to sell something; product, ideology, etc.
Where Honda Motors needs to do it their way without a distracting public involvement, it is simply because that is the way that it needs to work for them. The “last” are not at all likely to be the “worst” as far a BEV is concerned.
Bottom line for carbon-friendliness IMTO:
WTW = What’s the Warranty?
GM, from my technical perspective, is looking like the E-REV BEST, and, based on the 10yr./150,000 mile warranty package, they are going to be, as well as stay, the VERY best at E-REV.
Electric horsepower of a different color.
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:03 pm)Whoever said it would never be produced, those people are likely tob e wrong. But not necessarily.
And those who said GM would face competiton, that they didn’t own any key enabling tech to give themselves a true strategic market advantage; they were right.
And the people who said GM would go bankrupt first, they were right, too.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:06 pm)Charlie H
It sounds like you remain unconvinced that the Volt’s wheels will ever hit the showroom floors. Even statik backed away from that stance and in the end only questioned “when” not “if”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:09 pm)GM leads in hype only. It turns out that plenty of other manufacturers were working diligently on their vehicles, just without the committment to yammering about them that GM has shown.
“Leadership” will be producing a cost-effective car in quantity. Right now, GM is on track for none of that.
Everybody trails Toyota in gas-electric drivetrains, which is exactly what describes the Volt. Over a million sold. That is leadership.
-2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:54 pm)I’ve never been troubled by whether or not GM would actually build it, I have always felt it was a waste of time and money. Bankrupt companies should build cars that will sell profitably. That is not the Volt.
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:43 pm)You may not want to share that with any 2008 Accord owners:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Accord/2008/brakes/premature_brake_wear.shtml
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:31 am)What do you mean 2020? Batteries are not maturing the way fuel
cells are. The amount of platinum in modern fuel cell stacks is equal to the amount that is in a catalytic converter. Fuel cells are small enough now to put them in compact cars. It might take till 2020 for fuel cell cars to replace a significant portion of the gas cars on the road, but it will take that long because of roll over for anything to replace a significant portion of the gasoline based cars. People often don’t buy new cars and when they do they tend to stick with them for at least 2-3 years or longer depending on their philosophy.
Barring an unforeseen abandonment by the automakers of fuel
cell technology, FC cars will be commercially available in at least
the thousands in 2015. If fuel cell cars were mass produced
today, they would probably cost $50k a piece. The automakers
need 6 more years to get the cost down.
So far, batteries are needed by both fuel cell cars and BEVs, but
batteries are NOT competing with fuel. Hydrogen is the only fuel
one can burn that will not harm the environment. I assume that
fuel cells are recyclable and unlike batteries, fuel cells do not seem
to contain hazardous materials.
I will not be surprised if we say $200/barrel OIL in the next 6-10 years where hybrids are still overly dependent on it.
If hydrnol or something similar allows the use of a liquid fuel in hydrogen cars that is stored at standard temperature and pressure
and the price is right, I think fuel cell cars will roll out rapidly. Questions still remain about the process to generate and recharge
hydrnol as well as the feasibility of using it with fuel cells because fuel cells are fairly cold compared to internal combustion engines.
There would be fuel cell cars in every state being tested today if it
weren’t for the fact that there are very few stations to fill up at outside of California. There is not a shortage of ways to get hydrogen, many of them very attractive. Unfortunately, I fear that a lot of the available approaches are stuck in the lab. A little funding from the Obamanation in the white house would help with this. It’s a shame that it took Congress to get funding for fuel cell research and infrastructure development restored.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (5:50 am)I feel sorry for them, though many openly admit they bought a Honda knowing Hondas reputation for quality. I would say they used low quality brake pads for this model, usually they last from 18 to 60k depending on the quality – given most suffered problems from 18 to 25k, I’d be saying the quality was pretty poor, and have the pads changed to higher quality ones.
Its a shame the people in the blog are also being ripped off for simply changing brake pads – this is not a failure with the”brakes” , its simply the “brake pads”, its actually quite easy to do, and the brake pads themselves are pretty cheap (about $60 (AU) for 2 medium quality rear brake pads, obviously cheaper if its for a dealership or an auto shop).
Personally i have no hesitation in buying a Honda, generally speaking their quality is very good (accord break pads aside).
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:08 am)I don’t understand – “…20 feet to the curb”?
The electrical transmission and distribution infrastructure is all the way into our homes. There isn’t another 20 feet, unless an electrician installs a dedicated circuit at a location of one’s choosing.
Then, it becomes a personal matter of preference removed from the utility’s responsibility – like installing a dedicated circuit for a hot tub or landscape lighting.
We’re wired and ready for EVs today.
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:25 am)While I don’t expect Honda to wait until 2015, I do think it is a good decision for them to make. An October unveiling is just around the corner. Good article, Lyle. Keep it up.
Aug 25th, 2009 (1:01 am)I respectfully disagree with the whole notion that plug in cars are worth it in any way shape or form. Have you ever driven the Honda FCX Clarity? How can you judge a car you have never driven? Even
if you would buy an expensive green car that could only be green for 40 miles per charge, will others also buy it? How many? I think demand for hybrids is going to get softer as the batteries get bigger because of the law of diminishing returns.
Aug 25th, 2009 (4:52 am)I believe the people who are bored with just getting another BMW will buy the electric car. Something new, something cool, and at the same price.
=D~
Aug 29th, 2009 (3:15 am)Let’s say that you are right Dave. People who can afford BMWs will buy the Chevy Volt. It’s great that there are people who will buy the Volt, but how many people can if they have to be capable of buying a BMW? Any green car that is not mass produced and mass purchased is a failure. The purpose of a green car is to reduce negative impact on the environment from automobiles.
In order to do that, green cars must be both affordable and a
reasonable alternative to more conventional cars and trucks.
GM has made it clear that it expects the Gen I Volt to be a failure.
The reality is, the large 16 kwh battery is very expensive. More
expensive perhaps than a smaller battery coupled with a fuel
cell and hydrogen tank. The fuel cell Volt can go further without
burning gas than the gas/electric hybrid Volt can. Why is a site devoted to the Chevy Volt not one where people can discuss
the more promising fuel cell version? The Gen II Volt might just
be the fuel cell version because of economics.