We recently heard about the engineering work GM has ahead of them in optimizing generator mode operation.
A concern that has been considered for a long time is whether the car will have power limitations in that mode.
The car will have a 100 MPH top speed 110 kw electric motor. The generator can develop 53 kw and the battery even in charge sustaining mode can act as a significant power reserve, but to what extent and for how long?
I had the chance to discuss this with Tony Posawatz, the Volt’s vehicle line engineer.
When the Volt goes into generator mode and the battery is at 30% state of charge, will the car drive any differently?
No. The car will not drive any different. Its the same electric motor that’s driving it.
But the amount of power is less coming from the 53 kw generator than the 110 kw than the battery can output .
Yes. We do baby our battery, but we always leave reserve. If you were to do multiple wide-open-throttles, eventually you’d limit that reserve a little but no one does that.
Let’s say you are on the highway or let’s say there’s a Volt police car, going 90 MPH in generator mode and it stays there, can you keep staying there indefinitely?
At some point and time you will exceed the reserve.
So since the advantage of the Volt over BEVs is being able to go on those long trips more than 100 miles which are usually highway drives, will you be limited on the highway?
If your in normal driving condition even 75 MPH and stuff, not an issue. It is only the less than 1% conditions that you would have some power limitations. The first installment of Volt is not for everyone, just for most people. We never claimed that the Volt is the solution for every application. We do think it will be compared to other alternate propulsion vehicles it will be the vehilce that will most easily be a first car or a no compromise car.
+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:09 am)Of course there are power limitations, the range extender ICE is only 75hp.. and power mad Americans need at least 200hp.. I dont know what for, I guess they need to tow horse trailers with a midsize sedan at 75mph down the highway.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:14 am)Volt Police car? Hmm, I know the Volt will accelerate like a bat out of hell but…
Have a good day everyone!
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+3
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:14 am)Agreed, but 75 mph continuous is no slouch.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:21 am)Why not have a switch such that if you are going on a long highway trip, you switch at the outset to generator mode rathre than initially burn the battery for 20-30 miles. This would save the entire battery power as a reserve, and possibly eliminate any power restrictions later in the drive. most people taking trips know the length of a trip ahead of time, and perhaps anything over a 3+ hour trip might be better in generator mode entirely, having plenty of reserve power as needed on the highway.
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+3
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:22 am)So in my truck I have more than 200 hp, and sometimes I need it. The Volt is a nice small car, used in a different way for different purposes. Its power seems more than adequate for what it is and does. Excellent design.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:23 am)Of course the Volt will have some power limitations. Re-read our Pikes peak discussion while.
Tony’s point is right on, however. I believe most drivers will never see such a situation.
Those who do will see it only in rare instances.
The Volt will be fine. My old 93 Escort Wagon with 88 HP, had similar issue. When hauling the family on vacation with “stuff” on the roof rack, I could not maintain 55 mph up the mountains west of MD/DC on route 70. I could still hit 85 mph on the downslopes however.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:24 am)it is perfectly adequate for doing 100mph on level ground..
http://www.greentechhistory.com/2009/08/weve-got-35-times-more-horsepower-in-our-cars-than-in-our-power-plants/
“Let’s simplify a bit and say that cars are 55% of the fleet and light trucks 45%. The average new car has 247 horsepower now and had 110 hp back in 1980. Let’s just say the average car has about 200 horsepower. The average light truck’s got 236 horsepower now, up from 138 in 1980. Let’s call that an average of 210. Do the math. 51 billion horsepower sitting in our driveways.”
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+11
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:25 am)The first installment of Volt is not for everyone, just for most people.
—————
That’s an elegant way to describe it, and accurate too.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:25 am)Sounds to me like an admission of power fade in certain circumstances.
The “power fade” issue is specifically why Ford said they passed on EREV.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/06/exclusive-ford-says-no-to-e-revs-and-explains-why/
/ I personally, wouldn’t consider this a deal breaker at all, as long as I had adequate warning from the gauges. But I do wonder how much of a liability this could be for GM, as I can’t think of another example of any type of car on the road with “power fade” as a possibility right out of the factory. I can imagine the lawyers jumping all over this when a merging into traffic incident comes about.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:26 am)The Volt Police Interceptor featuring remote shutdown protocols for offending vehicles courtesy of OnStar! That would be a real police interceptor. Leaves no shrapnel on the highway.
On second thought. Yikes!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:28 am)Lyle, this post was about Volt behaviour when the ICE/generator is supplying most of the power. It’s nice to hear that GM engineers are working hard to make the 2 modes of operation as equivalent as possible.
The question ” Will the Volt Have Power Limitations on the Highway?” should also be answered for when the battery is supplying most of the power. There has been some discussion that at highway speeds the Volt may feel a little anemic when passing, and so will only “feel like a 6-cylinder” car a city speeds.
Perhaps the question can be re-phrased something like this: “The Volt has been said by GM engineers to feel like a 6-cylinder car. Will that be true both at city and highway speeds?”
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:33 am)Add,
Where lawsuits are concerned, it’s the 1% you have to worry about.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:42 am)herm,
I kinda thought that you were an American. Not that it matters, except to throw us all in ANY one group (tough to show sarcasm in a post, methinks).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:44 am)I completely agree,,, with a twist. I think that the operater should be able to select “Trip mode” like you suggest. but the generateor instead of running normally, immediatly starts running at its most efficient mode possible. which will no doubt produce less power than you are using on the highway, until the battery achieves 30% SOC, at which time it would operate normally. this means that the enerator would probably be running at its most efficient RPM for >150m before the battery runs down to 30%. It would be interesting to see what kind of MPG’s it would get in that mode. I would assume more than simpy driving on all electric for 40m and then generator for 110m.
Thoughts?
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:47 am)The Volt should not have trouble merging on the hwy, merging is a momentary thing.. but if you tried to merge for 10 minutes in a row then you would deplete the reserves in the battery… short of a racetrack you will never see those conditions
Power Fade is different, it is simply when you run out of oomph to go faster on the hwy.
The Volkswagen Vanagon was famous for low power.. many of them would top out at 55-60mph on the hwy.. they had from 50-70hp in a draggy shoebox shaped body. Cant think of any other modern american car with 70hp or less besides the old Volkswagens. The diesel Rabbit pickup truck had 50 hp. The Tata Nano has 33hp.. and it would be considered underpowered in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_2_(T3)
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:49 am)My old ‘64 VW Beetle sounded like a washing machine and had about the same power on hill as a washing machine, but it would drive up a wall in the snow (great traction). The point is that it was FUN TO DRIVE! I think the VOLT will be that much fun and a LOT more.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 21st, 2009 (7:54 am)Have you driven up a hill in an economy powered 4-banger? Or, perhaps you’re concern is experiencing power fade halfway through a passing manuever? This could be an issue if it happens without warning.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (7:54 am)Yes I am an American, but I like efficiency.. can you imagine if the average car had kept a constant 110hp from the 80s?.. with modern ICE tech all those car would have been getting gas mileage in the 40mpg range today.
The beauty of the Volt is that you can get both performance and efficiency, even in the famous charge sustaining mode.
Yes, I do appreciate the Camaro with a 304hp V6 and still gets 29mpg on the hwy.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:00 am)Maybe we should start a “Buy an efficient car” campaign then. Certainly the Volt would qualify.
Sorry, I need coffee. Back when I reach human status.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:00 am)One way to do it, the switch just moves the charge sustaining mode up from 30% to perhaps 50% or even all the way up to 80%.. and it attempts to keep it there… but in reality this has extremely limited applications and lots of potential for “abuse”. You SHOULD slow down when going up Pikes Peak.
The switch should reset when you shut the car down.
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+3
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:01 am)______________________________________________________
Rare ER limitations are better than needing a tow truck:
Lyle, those were excellent questions you pitched to Tony Posawatz…also Tony did a good job in answering the questions sufficiently to give us a better understanding of performance under the ER mode.
I’d personally would prefer to be in a Volt at mile 200 under ER mode with some performance limitations (that only become apparent under rare circumstances) than to be in a BEV at mile 100 on the side of the road with a depleted battery waiting for a tow truck.
I wonder if AAA roadside insurance will exclude covering BEV’s running out of juice?
______________________________________________________
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:01 am)“Power Fade is different, it is simply when you run out of oomph to go faster on the hwy. ”
_____________
You’re trying to argue semantics on this?
If so. I think you’re wrong. “Power fade” means that the amount of available power diminishes or “fades”. Fade means to start with one thing and then diminish to something less.
In any regular ICE car it would mean that there’s something wrong. The car needs to go to the shop. (i.e. car owner to mechanic: “sometimes, it just loses power”)
“Under powered” is not having enough power. But on an underpowered car the same amount of HP is available at any time . . . in some scenarios, it’s not enough. The underpowered car behaves the same way in any given scenario, it does not switch personalities.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:02 am)The sister car would be the Chevy Electra Interceptor.. big electromagnets in the front that would lock on an offending car and slow it down..
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:03 am)For normal driving conditions, the draw going to the electric traction motor will be less than the gen/set output capacity. However, under heavy acceleration or going up a sustained grade at high speed, you will be able to draw all the gen/set can provide, plus suck on the battery reserve. But if the duration is short enough, the reserve will handle it, and then when demand drops off because you reach cruising speed or the top of the grade, the gen/set will replenish the battery back up to about 30% SOC. For example, say I floor board the Volt and accelerate up to 75 MPH. This would take perhaps 15 seconds. Lets say the draw for this period of acceleration was 90 Kw, and the gen/set only provided 50 kw. This would only pull down the reserve, (40 kw for 15 seconds) by less than 1 kwh, and so you could do this over and over, perhaps a half dozen times. Unless you live 35 miles from a long steep grade and then drive up it daily, power fade is not going to be a problem. I think the Volt has a great design, the problem is GM needs to get the cost down. But the steps to reach that goal have not been presented.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:07 am)jdenn,
I thought that the gen was already engineered to run at the most efficient speed for the demand at the time. During a trip the demands will change a lot and the genset should adapt automatically tho the differing demands for the most efficient mileage.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:07 am)As has been mentioned before, navigation could assist the VOLT in maintaining enough charge for the long hill climbs, especially on the interstate highways. When the decision is made to charge at the next overnight stop, the driver could switch back to city mode to use more battery power. However, if the driver is NOT planning on plugging in, then the reserve could be available for the next day.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:10 am)Sorry, did not intend to argue semantics, I see what you mean.. the Volt should be able to maintain the full 53kw genset output all day long.. so it would not be a “power fade” but just insufficient power… people may get used to the reserve and miss it when its gone but that is all it is.
Perhaps a big red light should light up when you are exceeding the 53kw for a prolonged time and you get down below half of the reserve, then it starts blinking and a sliding needle starts moving down towards empty.. that should be enough of a hint to slow down and to prevent suits.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:12 am)I do like the idea of the generator being manually turned on for long trips when I anticipate going 300+ miles or just for maintenance like changing the oil. I don’t want to have to drive 40 miles before I can go to the quickie lube.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:14 am)Yes it is. Sadly, I am one of those people that it is not for.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:16 am)I wonder if On Star could know you are heading for a trip through the mountains and ask you if you wanted the Gen set to come on at 40-50% rather than 30%.
This power fade does concern me regarding my trips up I-81 and the mountains of PA. It would not be a deal breaker but it is of concern.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:18 am)I think Carcus1 is referring to power fade as when the Battery reserve gets depleted and your max power goes from 110KW to 53KW. It could more reasonably be expected to happen after some time up a steep grade at 70+mph and then you try to pass someone. This could be a concern if you are on a two-lane highway and you’re trying to pass a semi or group of cars.
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+13
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:19 am)Here’s the difference: What we have today are gas engines that have a max horsepower, and they can run at that max power continuously for a long time.
With an EREV, the max horsepower always comes from the battery and electric motor, even when the gas engine is running. So the gas engine only has to provide average horsepower, or maybe a little more than average, but certainly not max power. So this allows them to use a more efficient gas engine with less max power.
In reality, 75hp is a lot for for average power. I think you will be able to go 90 MPH continuous. The real issue has more to do with quick acceleration, going uphill fast, and hauling heavy loads. This is where you need max power. And for a compact car like the Volt, 150hp max is no slouch.
Bottom line: If you drive like a total madman, accelerating hard and hitting the brakes all the time, weaving in and out of lanes, cutting people off, then the Volt may not be for you. But for the rest of us, the Volt will be just fine.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:21 am)CDAVIS
That is an excellent question. My thought, maybe one free tow per year. I think most BEV owners will be careful and not need a tow any more often then ICE drivers do now. [after they get use to the limitations]
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+6
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:22 am)Power Fade? NO WAY! Ford was mistaken about this (their marketing people instead of their engineers were most likely quoted).
Brian Beckman, a California physicist, did what he called a ‘back of the envelope’ (but accurate) calculation of highway speed vs horsepower needed for a Corvette with a drag of 0.30 & frontal area of 20 sq ft *…..
Beckman found that the ‘Vette needs 74.2 HP to sustain a speed of 120 mph (on level ground), withOUT low rolling resistance tires & with a higher Cd*A than the Volt. And the ‘Vette lacks the instantaneous torque available for acceleration, passing or hill climbing that the Volt’s battery & traction motor provide.
Therefore, the Volt will be able to easily cruise all day long at 80 mph without ‘power fade’!
* http://phors.locost7.info/phors06.htm
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:25 am)Rashiid
What makes this unacceptable to you. I was hoping you and I would both be early adopters.
Really wsorry to hear this.
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:29 am)For a compact car like the Volt, 150 hp max will feel noticeably more powerful than 220 hp in a truck.
As an example, the Tesla Roadster has 248 hp, and that does 0-60 in less than 4 seconds. But that’s a very small 2-seater with a carbon fiber body.
Horsepower is relative.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:29 am)Most of the “power fade” issue will have to do with (be eliminated by?) the size of the buffer zone when running in CS mode. GM has hinted but not told us the exact amount — and are likely still working this out.
I contend that the anticipated 30% SOC will not allow for enough buffer zone to get away from power fade issues. Or at least, not far enough away for the lawyers to be happy. But of course, there are so many variables and unknowns in this equation, that the “CS buffer zone window” probably won’t be known until the volt is finalized, and even then may very well change with revisions after that.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:32 am)/Beckman also found that his ‘Vette needs only 31.3 HP to sustain 90 mph
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:33 am)As an aside, I saw my first actual SmartCar while driving out of NYC on our visit there. There were 4 lanes across and it was passing me! It had one diminutive person in it, but *I* was going between 65 and 70 at the time (and it didn’t pass “slowly”)(lol). Impressive speed, but TINY car.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:33 am)Personally I think this issue is being blown way out of proportion. I don’t think people really understand the power requirements of traveling at different speeds. I have a 300hp modified cobalt ss supercharged and one of my modifications is a digital gauge which plugs into the obd2 port and communicates with the computer of the car in order to get performance data. One parameter which I usually monitor is calculated horsepower. Granted this isn’t 100% accurate but it is a good indication. In order to hold a constant speed of 100km/h (about 60 mph) my cobalt which is less aerodynamic than the volt will be, and probably of similar weight requires approximately 25-30 horsepower (18.65kw – 22.38 kw). Now if I am on a freeway doing 140km/h (87 mph) that goes up to approximately 40 hp (29.84kw). Both of these numbers are well within the capabilities of the volts ICE (75kw). Maintaining a constant speed requires very little horsepower. Accelerating to that speed in a reasonable amount of time does and that is what the battery reserve is for!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:34 am)Sounds good.
A very simple switch as the driver can be able to force the volt to get to Charge-sustaining-mode. Makes sense imo.
I see a big advantage in it as you can keep “battery-exclusive” mode, aka the standard automatic mode, for city/parkings driving, and “charge-sustaining” mode for highway and outter city driving. That mode will have as effect to activate the charge-sustaining mechanism at the current battery SOC, and not necessarily after battery depletion.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:36 am)2 different drivetrains for 2 different applications. BEV buyers will not be purchasing with the intention of driving longer distances on the highway than their batteries supply.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:38 am)It is set to run at the most efficient speed for the demand at the time…. but wouldn’t it be more efficient “over time” if it ran at the most efficient speed. Period?.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:47 am)jdenn
I may not be understanding the question, but whether it’s running efficiently is determined by the demand at the time – not some average, or the most efficient speed of the genset emgine when not under any demand.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:49 am)old man, I think it is my 101 mile daily commute and having to charge it twice a day or run the ICE approximately 60 miles per day.
Either way, I don’t think the Volt was made for this style of driving.
Your thoughts?
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:54 am)I guess i don’t understand generator efficiency, i just assumed (incorrecly probably), that the generator would be able to produce more electricity per gallon of gas at a lower rpm than at a stressed higher RPM. IF that were true, i tought that you could get further on less gas if you allowed the generator to kick on early for long trips and set it at the most efficient rpm, not tying it to the speed of the car until 30% SOC.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:55 am)Good aerodynamics are your friend!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:56 am)I bet your Escort Wagon didn’t have a coefficient of drag like the Volt. It will take less power to keep the Volt at highway speed. That 53 kw from the generator equals 72 horsepower, which should keep the Volt going quite fast without touching the battery. Tesla’s power chart says their car needs 50 kw to maintain 100 MPH. If the Volt is similar speeding down the highway should be no problem.
Hills are the problem, of course. But as near as I can figure, doing 70 MPH you won’t need the battery up to a 6% grade. At 50 you could handle up to an 11% grade.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:56 am)The original spec on the Volt was (and still is I hope) that it would cruise all day at 100mph, in charge sustaining mode, on level ground..
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:58 am)jdenn,
Surely one of our engineer devotee’s will have the answer for us (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:59 am)ugly little things, and I feel shame when I say that.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (8:59 am)Yes. My reading of the post suggests the issue will only appear while cruising at high speeds and then passing even faster.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (8:59 am)The Conejo Grade (AKA Camarillo Grade) is a 2 mile stretch of steep freeway climb located in Ventura County California.
A six cylinder car can maintain 60-65 mph throughout the climb at about 4000 rpm. A four cylinder car will slow to 50 mph at mid climb unless the engine is pushed to 5000 rpm. Big rigs will normally use the far right lane and loaf along at about 35-40 mph.
The reported performance of the Volt falls into the “normal for a six cylinder car” range. If all the traffic is slowing anyway, then a Volt doing 65 mph isn’t a problem.
I live 40 miles North of the Conejo Grade. Here is a good photo.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Conejo%20Grade.jpg
=D~
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:00 am)I remember having a 1975 Mustang 2 with a 4 cyl. that could barely make it up a hill………….
I am not really worried about the Volt.
And I am not one of those 1% that drive like wild people!!!
I like the idea of a “trip mode” switch. That would solve most of the problems mentioned.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:00 am)very interesting.. how fast can you cruise before it hits 74hp?
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:00 am)Using that logic, sounds like an inline 4 cylinder with 100 hp in the ‘vette should be about 25.8 HP of overkill.
Not that I get in to the degrees and titles thing, but if you were wondering:
“Gioia received her Bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of Michigan and her Master of Sciences in Manufacturing Systems Engineering from Stanford University.”
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=21922
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:01 am)I’ve said it before, I think the NAV system should be integrated.
Set your destination (say Kelowna BC, from Calgary AB, about 650 km over and around Mountains with a couple large climbs and corresponding long downhill bits.
Let the computer decide when and how to manage the power useage.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:01 am)Rashiid
Tough choice, Pro Volt side is the hope for employers installing plugs, even if they charge a monthly fee. Might be worth the time to discuss with your employer.
Other wise I am out of ideas that make the Volt a Better idea than the Cruze.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:07 am)You could just ask OnStar to turn on the generator, couldn’t you?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:08 am)We have lots of them here in Calgary, but sales seem to have fallen off hard since they made the ‘foolish’ decision to discontinue the diesel (70mpg, but it sounded like a tractor) and go to the frankly not very efficent gas engine.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:09 am)Yes, better example of the limitation than my “merge”.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:11 am)Actually it was a convertible and the driver was cute, so I didn’t actually gag. My wife did call it cute – until a pickup truck pulled onto it’s back….
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:13 am)It really comes down to the MPG in CS mode for you.
If it hits the 50-60mpg that I expect then you are looking good.
The $40k cost thing for Gen1 doesn’t make real sense to anyone, but I want one anyway! (I don’t get the impression money is the main issue for you.)
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:15 am)The results in a collision at that speed in the SmartCar will be equally impressive… The “diminutive” person in it had an equally diminutive intelligence driving it at those speeds IMHO.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:15 am)Why not just put in a more powerful generator and call it done?
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:16 am)“or let’s say there’s a Volt police car”
When did the General announce plans to market VOLTs instead of Impala Police Cruisers? Or Camaro Police Interceptors?
Bad boys. Bad boys.
Whatcha’ gonna do?
Whatcha gonna do
when the VOLT comes through?
Bad boys. Bad boys.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:19 am)CBK,
She’d have pretty much had to choose to stay off superhighways then, because all of the traffic was bumper to bumper and FAST.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:20 am)I think you are right about the power reserve calculations.
A modern automatic transmission ‘learns’ it’s drivers habits and patterns and changes to suit.
I don’t see any reason why a Volt couldn’t know that when ‘MRR’ is driving to allow more buffer than when MissusRover is driving because she is a much more efficent driver.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:20 am)On Friday August 21, 2009, 10:11 am EDT
VIENNA (AP) — Oil prices hit their highest level this year on Friday as traders looked past a mixed batch of U.S. economic data to focus on a strong rise in China’s bellwether stock index.
Benchmark crude for October delivery was up $1.29 to $74.20 a barrel by afternoon European electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Earlier in the day it hit $74.48, the highest level so far this year.
S&P up 17.78 to 1025.15
=D~
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:21 am)To me, this power fade issue isn’t about EREV vs. BEV, it’s about series plug in hybrids vs series/parallel plug in hybrids.
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+5
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:30 am)Actually, ICE torque (and HP) curves are inferior to those of a well-designed electric motor ….thus ICE HP ratings need to be considerably larger than today’s traction motors to achieve equivalent overall performance.
And as to degrees, my long experience supervising talented engineers & scientists in the US space program has convinced me that a “piece of parchment” (degree) is no promise of faultless reasoning.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:30 am)For Mr. Herm and his distaste for ‘Power Mad Americans’
BMW M3 (Germany) 414 h.p.
BMW M5 (Germany) 500 h.p.
Mercedes-Benz C 63 (Germany) 451 h.p.
Mercedes-Benz SL 63 AMG(Germany) 518 h.p.
Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren (Germany) 617 h.p.
Bugatti Veyron EB16.4(France) 1001 h.p.
Lexus LS (Japan) a measly 380 h.p.
Lexus LS HYBRID! (Japan) 438 h.p. (A little more like it!)
(For all you Infinity and Acura owners, for give me, wife is calling me to breakfast) but I”m sure they make similar cars.
I bet you could smash a horse’s ass up against the tailgate with one of these bad boys!
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:33 am)Which unless your on a track you would be breaking the law in 99.9% of the US, I don’t see this as being a problem at all.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:41 am)They could but it will probably need to get better efficiency then a Prius or Insight for the MPG focused public.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:41 am)Yeah if people are really that concerned have them drop a 3.1L V-6 in there. 175 hp to match up with that 110 kW battery.
Fuel economy would suffer but power to spare.
(I’ll be fine with a 4-banger myself)
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+6
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:44 am)2010 Fusion Hybrid…
I have one… Averaging 5.4 L / 100 KMs
Approximately 52 MPG Canadian.
Seats 5 Costs approximately $30 – $34,000 based on options.
So far I am finding it a GREAT car as I drive anywhere from 75 KMs to 250 KMS per day “on the job”…
In just a month I have saved approximately $100.00 in gas savings alone…
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:48 am)Much faster than any law abiding citizen concerned with efficiency would need to
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:51 am)The Volt is a better idea for you than for someone who drives only a few miles a day. The more you can utilize the battery the better off you’ll be. Depending on your drive you should be able to displace a gallon or more of gas a day. That’s significant.
It would also be super if you could charge charge at work. That type of opportunity charging would displace even more gas, and is in fact a wonderful opportunity. This probably wouldn’t work where you are because the distances means you’d be crossing service areas — and it’s no big deal given the cost of electricity — but where I am the utility is working on an adapter for chargers that allows you to bill your home account for electricity used to charge anywhere in the County. Eliminates the concern by the person or entity providing the electricity that you’re free-loading.
That said, you may have other concerns such as the safety of commuting in a small car over long distances. I think you’ve mentioned it before but I can’t remember what car you use now for the commute.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (9:55 am)In this case the torque of the motor would be more important to maintaining your speed than engine RPM. The advantage of the volt is that it can use it’s high torque electric motor to climb the hill without having to drop a gear and increase RPM and hence engine output. It all depends on two things the algorithm controlling the variable frequency drive of the motor, and the thermal limits of the motor it’s self. The funny thing about electric motors is they have a “synchronous speed” which they are trying to maintain which is a function of the frequency of the power fed to them. Loading a motor will cause it’s speed to decrease, the motor will then in fact generate more torque to try anc “catch up” to it’s synchronous speed.
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-3
Aug 21st, 2009 (9:59 am)It probably helped Ford’s decision that they were able to build a reasonably economical HEV, where GM has failed and was forced to explore other options.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:09 am)Also,
When you look at HP for an engine, it is usually associated with 5500-6000 rpms. I never drove my car that hard. I was usually in the 3000-3500 rpm range going up a hill because I did not want parts to start falling off. The point is, I was probably only generating 50 HP.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:19 am)Yes, it looks bad for the bad boys,
they used to worry about the electric chair,
now they must watch for the electric car,
but whatcha gonna do,
bad boys, bad boys
And just picture the huge lights on that dude
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:20 am)“A modern automatic transmission ‘learns’ ……. ”
______________________________
Good analogy/suggestion.
If the volt “learns” that a driver is continually getting dangerously close to/into the bottom of the “CS buffer zone window”, the volt would then start to expand the window (at the sacrifice of some fuel efficiency, as the ICE will now have to work harder/longer to maintain a bigger window).
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:38 am)nasaman says Beckman found that the ‘Vette needs 74.2 HP to sustain a speed of 120 mph (on level ground), withOUT low rolling resistance tires & with a higher Cd*A than the Volt
This is NOT what he found. What he calculated was that the Corvette needed 74.2 hp to overcome air resistance at 120 mph.
You’ve overlooked the fact that we still have to consider drive train losses, the hp needed to overcome rolling resistance, and, if we’re going uphill, the energy needed to overcome the gravitational force (you’ve accounted for the last factor by assuming level ground so no quibble there but it’s the factor assumed by the Ford spokesperson). If you look at the table you’ve taken the 74.2 hp number from, you’ll notice that the table says you need 145 hp at 150 mph. Here is what Beckman has to say about this, keeping in mind that the Vette has a top speed of 150 mph:
We know that our Corvette example car has about 240 hp, so about 95 hp must be going into overcoming rolling resistance and the slight braking forces arising from internal friction in the drive train and wheel bearings.
Given that at lower speeds, say 70 mph, drive train losses and rolling resistance will make up a larger percentage of the power needed to move the Volt, and adding to that the additional power needed to move the not inconsiderable mass of the Volt up a hill, and it’s reasonably clear that power fade could be an issue under some (I’d say unusual) circumstances.
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:41 am)I currently drive a 2002 Hyundai Elantra with almost 200,000 miles on it.
I was thinking that charging the battery twice a day is going to cut down on it’s 10 year 150,000 warranty. I have no doubts about the 150,000 miles, but 10 years might be cut to 5. Cost of ownership would be much higher at this point if the battery is actually “cooked” in that amount of time.
Note: I currently park in a garage at both home and work.
At work, I park under a 110 plug. I could probably tap into that.
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-1
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:42 am)This article sent up some major red flags for me, especially comments like “eventually you’d limit that reserve a little but no one does that.” and “At some point and time you will exceed the reserve.” That sounds like they are already trying to lower expectations for the Volts performance. I know I take a lot of trips in the mountains where you are definitely at full throttle for long periods of time, at high altitudes. I will have to see some indpendent performance tests by someone like road and track before I consider buying now. Especially a $40k+ vehicle…
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Aug 21st, 2009 (10:44 am)Yeah. Wait for it. $100/barrel is coming, probably sooner than we think.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (10:44 am)EREV is ideal for police car application. Use an oversize generator and a 200 hp electric motor (or two 100hp for AWD). More than half of police pursuits involve getting up to full speed from either a slow coast or a full stop. And most end within 5 minutes. So what if the car only achieves 35 mpg with the bigger generator. My guess is most now get about 20 mpg at best.
Another great use of EREV is ambulance. An ambulance crew is called each hour or two. They race to the victim, usually within 20 miles. They return to the hospital for another hour or two.
=D~
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:45 am)This is a non-problem, IMHO.
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:46 am)I know the Canejo well. I’ve been going over it for decades. Do you remember what it was like in the late ’70’s and 80’s when most people’s cars struggled to get over that thing floored and overheating at 55mph? As you’d be struggling with your new car, some guy driving a car from the 60’s or even 50’s would blow right by you. Now everybody goes up and over with ease. No, I’ll take today’s cars over the ones we had in the 80’s any day.
Speaking of the Canejo grade, just imagine the nice charge you’ll get travelling north bound and going down the hill!
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-2
Aug 21st, 2009 (10:53 am)Your bottom line is wrong, if you’re hitting the brakes you’re re-generating. It should say “If you drive like a total maniac on the highway, accelerating through traffic, and cutting people off”
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:04 am)DaV8or, I used to say a prayer and regrip the wheel before charging the Canejo grade with my old Opel Cadette. We always made it, but the engine got pretty hot.
=D~
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-1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:08 am)Not sure if anyone will actually read this, but Chrysler experimented with a Voltec like concept in the late 90’s called Intrepid ESX (and later versions, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Intrepid_ESX). This concept used a 3cyl turbodiesel.
I know diesel technology is not foreign to GM and its getting wider acceptance of late because of better emissions controls. In this application, diesel just makes more sense. It produces more power so you can push a bigger generator more efficiently with less fuel consumption. And you can use biodiesel, I shouldn’t have to go into detail why biodiesel is a preferred fuel, but it is and hey fellow American’s, its DOMESTIC. Which means local product from local workers, no outsourced call center will be producing this stuff for your use!
It used to be that diesel and gasoline were byproducts of the “lighting fuel” industry, now “lighting fuel” is the byproduct of the diesel and gasoline industry. When will it stop? Baby steps yes, but this technology has been around longer than the ICE.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:09 am)Adam my friend I believe you are focusing on the ‘negatives’.
Is it possible that on a long say 20 mile climb of a mountain pass you might hit the battery reserve limit and have to slow down to the speed limit?
Yes.
Having said that, the $40k number is for the Gen 1 car, the price will drop with Gen 2.
If bottom line performance is your main goal then you are not talking about a hyper efficent car like the Volt anyway.
Buy the Camaro that you really want and all is well.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:11 am)The Volt is not the chosen one. It’s just a cool EV that happens to be able to go long distances.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:12 am)My worst case scenario would be a visit to the in-laws (okay, let’s just assume I mean for driving the Volt, that is).
That’s a 500 mile drive. I would probably be there a week, driving around town without charging. (Don’t see me asking to plug-in at their house.) Then another 500 mile drive home.
Realistically I’m looking at 1,000 miles in generator mode between charges — most of that on interstate highways at speeds around 70-80 mph.
My simple question: Is that doable?
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+6
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:14 am)There is a limit to the power recovered during regeneration, very aggressive driving will end up being much less efficent than driving smoothly.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:17 am)We have Dodge Charger Popo’s here. On top of that, they trick the Charger out with Cold Air Intake and Electric Turbo chargers and whatever else can be done.
Talk about bad boy’s who’s really the bad boy’s? I see them pull over Camaro’s, mustang’s and Vette’s all the time on this known long 2 mile straigt strip as I cruise by in my 96 Saturn putputtin along laughing.
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-2
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:17 am)I’d agree there
Switch it to diesel, and give it a beefier generator. No more power problem, and the possibility to recharge while you drive. I for one would like to see it able to recharge while driving, then turn off the generator once a high enough charge level it reached
In my opinion, the generator should be powerful enough to completely power the vehicle while accelerating with the lights and a\c on.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:17 am)For all you Infinity and Acura owners, for give me, wife is calling me to breakfast) but I”m sure they make similar cars.
Actually Honda has stayed true to its mission of making cars using small efficient engines so Acura doesn’t have a similar car. Small is relative of course, but the largest engine Acura makes is a V6 which generates “only” about 300 hp. Not in the class with the cars you’ve mentioned. Plenty of power though.
What’s funny here is that all this power is for cars driven by people who are what, over 65 years old? Granted I have a neighbor who is under 50 and drives a M6, but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone under 50 drive a Mercedes in years.
And what does all this power do for you? When you get to a stop light the fastest car off the blocks is invariably an “underpowered” Scion driven by a 20 something!
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+3
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:18 am)Looking at Conejo Grade on a map I see it climbs 735 feet. For a two mile stretch of road that’s an average 7% grade.
Raising a 4000 lb car 735 feet takes 2.94 million foot pounds which is 1.1 kwhr of energy. But that doesn’t all have to come from the battery, the generator supplies most of it.
If you’re driving at 65 MPH the drag on the car should be about 20 kw leaving about 30 kw from the generator for climbing. It will take 110 seconds to drive those two miles, so:
110 sec * 30kw = 3300 kj = 0.916 kwhr
So the battery would have to provide 0.19 kwhr or 1.2% of the battery capacity. As long as they allow you to dip a couple percent into that reserve 30% SOC the Volt will do just fine on Conejo Grade. If they allow you to drain it down to 20% you could do eight times better, 6000 feet of, at that speed and average grade.
Heavier grades would be more taxing, but how many really bad grades go on for miles at interstate speed? If the Volt can’t dip into the reserve that far, maybe there does need to be a mode where you can tell it to reserve an extra 10 or 20 percent so you can climb five or ten thousand feet.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:20 am)For those that think their modern car has too much HP, try this; Attach a small piece of wood to the bottom of your accelerator that only allows you to depress the pedal half way. That way you’ll have the 110hp of the good ol’ days and save a lot of gas. I suggest tapping it on rather than screwing it, because you’ll probably soon be taking it off.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:21 am)If I were in your situation, I would buy the cheapest vehicle with the best mileage rating I could get for the money and run the wheels off it before purchasing another. Probably the same reasoning you did when you purchased your current 2002 Hyundai Elantra. You are putting 28,000 miles on it per year. The Volt would be a very expensive vehicle for your commute car, in my opinion. A better “fit” may come available in a few years or at least we can hope so.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:22 am)I don’t want a Camaro. Is it too much to ask for to have performance AND efficiency? I mean Telsa is able to deliver that in spades. Unfortunately Tesla is way out of my budget. But I was hoping Volt could deliver a little of both….
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:24 am)There have been several discussions on this point over time.
It is multipronged issue but the main points are…
1) The US public just isn’t ready for diesel in the mainstream.
2) This little 1.4 litre gas engine was already in their inventory, is proven and removes one area of uncertainty
In the future the Voltec platform has been designed to use any number of possible engines for it’s genset.
Diesel has not been ruled out.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:24 am)The key word there is level. Most folks don’t notice when they’re not on level ground. Even slight grades dramatically increase the need for horsepower. The Volt can’t satisfy this need if you are already pushing the wind out of the way at a steady 70 mph. It will just slow down on even gradual inclines. Hey, it’s underpowered. Get used to it!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:26 am)“Opec’s GREED will herald the end of the oil age”:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6802501.ece
“The usual forecasts, based on extrapolation of past trends, do not see electric cars or non-fossil fuel power plants having a really big impact for another 20-30 years. Imagine, though, the effect on INNOVATION of oil at $100-200 a barrel, of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Chinese (and Japanese, European and America) engineers trying to do for solar power and for car batteries what has been done in the past decade for mobile phones and computers.
Then, the usual forecasts will turn out to be wrong — as usual. The oil age, which began in earnest a century ago in America, will be at an end.”
We need “POWER TO THE PEOPLE” ! Power for the gasoline consumer. In just a few years, people all over the world will not HAVE TO buy nearly as much of this product called gasoline. People will have a CHOICE.
In the early years, cars like the Volt will be pricey, but by 2015 or so, I bet super high fuel efficient vehicles will be widely available for most people …. 100 mpg+.
When OPEC, Big Oil, and Wall Street oil market schemers jack up the price of oil, people with ultra efficient cars like the Volt will go around bragging about how FEW gallons of gas they have to buy in a month or in a YEAR. It will be a great way for people to laugh back at OPEC … flip THEM a bird. We won’t NEED their damned oil nearly as much as we used to. That’s what it feels like to have independence.
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:27 am)Rashiid,
I hadn’t heard any limitations on the number of charges/day for a new battery to be covered under warranty. Why wouldn’t you just get a free new battery if you got a Volt?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:30 am)Per Tony Posawatz: The first installment of Volt is not for everyone, just for most people. We never claimed that the Volt is the solution for every application. We do think it will be compared to other alternate propulsion vehicles it will be the vehilce that will most easily be a first car or a no compromise car.
This sums it up nicely. At $43K the Volt will be too pricey for most. As a small car it’s best suited for commuting rather than long haul drives. Those are limitations. On the plus side, it will be an EV. Yeah!
Just depends on what you need, what you want, and what you can afford.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:36 am)Tag,
With Rashiid’s yearly mileage it would be less than 6 years before he exceeded the 150,000 mile warranty. If the battery was still in great condition at that time he could just continue piling mileage on to it. If not, the Volt would prove really expensive.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:41 am)Been asking the boss to try a Fusion for one of our new company cars. He just picked up a second Matrix in 6 months.
=D~
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:42 am)And weight is the deciding factor most times. More horse power offsets more weight. Less weight requires less horse power. Funny how that works out. Now adding special requirements like hauling or pulling things require more horse power, but again that is weight being added in either of two ways. Added onto the vehicle for hauling things or added weight pulling against the vehicle for pulling things. Weight versus horsepower is always a balancing act. Makes you wonder how the auto companies ever balance the two out against each other.
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+2
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:42 am)WOW,
You’re right I didn’t do the math. With that mileage ANY vehicle would be out of warranty, but of course they wouldn’t have that battery. Maybe the Volt would get dramatic CS mpg? I know that doesn’t help with the warranty, but it’d still bear on the cost of operation.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:45 am)Greetings Mr. Amul… my fellow 100+ mi commuter (106mi for me)…
I have had the same concerns as you regarding reality of owning a Volt with the excessive commute. Plus, I wouldn’t have a ‘garage’ at work and I dont know of any current exterior plugs, but I’m pretty confident that when the time draws near I could lobby to get something installed here at work. Not sure about shelter part but electricity should be doable…
Also hoping that my current car makes it to….oh say mid to late 2011….currently in an ‘01 3-series w/ 170k miles on it… so maintenence can be quite scary. I switch up w/ the wife too and use her ‘05 Vue every other wk or so to sort of distribute the mileage load.
Who knows lots could happen between now and then….
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+5
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:46 am)I don’t get this statement “40K$ doesn’t make real sense to anyone”. People are buying BMWs and Porsches and Mercedes that cost at least that much, sometimes even more. Only to have a conventional automobile.
We are talking about a new kind of car here, a distinction that some people will be willing to pay for. Everybody ? Certainly not. But it will make sense for enough people to get to Gen2 and beyond.
A revolution cannot start if we keep thinking – falsely – that it can’t be done and that it doesn’t make sense to anyone.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:48 am)Ah but all those (except SLR and Veyron) are performance variants of normal cars. i.e. you can buy the 3 series with a 114hp 1.6 diesel engine, the C class with a 136hp 2.0 diesel etc.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:50 am)Good info LandKurt, thanks.
=D~
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:50 am)Rashiid Amul, I think you have a great opportunity to test the limits of the car if you can plug your car at work. It would mean 80% of your commute would be electrical and cheap.
When oil prices go up again, it will make a lot of sense to switch to the Volt.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:50 am)They absolutely have to make an option to turn the ICE on right away or after say 10% of discharge (to allow for regeneration). If you are planning a long drive there is no use of cycling the battery to 30%. Lets say I plan to drive to the airport and I am going to Australia for 2 weeks diving. I have about 200 miles drive to the international airport. There is no point for me to use EV mode and then let the car sit in -30F with depleted battery. Or if I drive to Boston, I could drive on the ICE and only go into EV mode once I am there to keep the air clean. Of if I am going to the mountains and want to keep some extra cushion for passing power. I also need and electric outlet from the generator to use as a back up for my house. If I have that option the extra 10K premium would be totally worth for me. I think GM is not taking the whole advantage of the great power train they’ve developed. Maybe the aftermarketers will fill in the gaps.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:53 am)OK, the Volt will do 100mph on the flat all day long.
Seems like pretty good performance to me.
Dunno about where you live, but I can guarantee a long talk with a Mountie were somebody to try that around here since the limit is either 100 or 110kph. (~66-70mph)
A Tesla is about 100 miles short on range for my most common highway trip assuming one were to leave the AC off.
It is also a two seat exotic sports car that costs most of $150k.
There really is only Electric drive in common to compare the two with.
I don’t mean to be nasty, but it would be pretty rediculous of me to get upset with Subaru because my Impreza wagon couldn’t keep up with my friends Ferrari 355. The Impreza is a sporty fun car but it doesn’t compare with the F-car performance wise. This doesn’t make the Impreza a failure.
It is the same with the Volt.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:54 am)Has anyone actually ridden in a Volt IV on a 6 percent grade while in charge sustaining mode? Oh, that’s right, GM won’t even let anyone ride in a Volt while in charge sustaining mode on flat ground! What a silly question. Hey, I wonder why they won’t?
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:55 am)Yes.
I’ll have a similar situation, with the exception that the father-in-law will be all over the Volt checking it out!
He’d likely put IN a 220v for us!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:58 am)Rashid,
The warranty is 10 year or 150,000 miles, nothing about how many charges.
With only charging at night and having a 100 mile commute, the daily cost to commute is about a wash or better than a 50mpg car. Now it’s just about if you WANT the car is it worth the extra money.
Car vs Volt
Round Trip Distance to Work 100
Current Vehical mpg 50
Volt mpc 35
Volt mpg 40
Vehicle Fuell $ per gallon $2.50
Electric $ per charge $0.85
Car cost per day $5.00
Volt cost per day $4.91
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Aug 21st, 2009 (11:58 am)“The US public just isn’t ready for diesel in the mainstream.”
Somebody has to make the change, why not GM. I mean if efficiency is the whole idea here, a Diesel genset would’ve been the biggest winner. I mean cmon, BMW is even onboard with this new model that gets 57.4MPG. Why is regular Gas even still considered if a non hybrid diesel get’s as much as a Hybrid Prius? Granted it was a EU test so I would guess it would get maybe 55MPG US test.
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/21/frankfurt-preview-2010-bmw-320d-efficient-dynamics-edition-57/
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (11:59 am)Speaking of BMW fuel efficiency:
Frankfurt Preview: 2010 BMW 320d Efficient Dynamics Edition, 57.4 mpg (U.S.)
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/21/frankfurt-preview-2010-bmw-320d-efficient-dynamics-edition-57/
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Aug 21st, 2009 (12:13 pm)i dont get it, why speed up to 100 mph? if the speed limit is 65mph?…the Volt is not designed for maniacs on the road…..
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Aug 21st, 2009 (12:21 pm)Another point to consider.
We all, or nearly all believe the cost of batteries will drop quite a lot in the next 6 years.
Still tough decision
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Aug 21st, 2009 (12:24 pm)Shock, …Along that line, I would like to see the Cadillac version with a stronger Electric Motor. And be capable of a Super Sport mode using energy from the ICE and a full Battery.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (12:26 pm)YES!!!!!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (12:34 pm)Let’s compare those number under your scenario, 1000 miles in the Volts theoretical/claimed 50MPG vs the 2010 Prius (john1707070101010….still can’t remember his tag) real life 54MPG.
Volt: 1000/50 = 20.0Gallons
Prius: 1000/54 = 18.5185Gallons & no “Asking to plug-in” anxiety.
2010 BMW 320d: 1000/57.4 = 17.421Gallons & no “Asking to plug-in” anxiety.
This is where one has to ask if the Volt is really for you? Especially if you always take longer than 100miles per day.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (12:35 pm)All of you bring up interesting points.
There is a lot to consider.
My wife could drive the Volt though, since she is a stay-at-home mom.
She would hardly use gas (unless she forgot to plug it in) and the car battery should last way beyond the 10 years.
Thanks guys.
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+1
Aug 21st, 2009 (12:40 pm)EU driving cycle. Be closer to 35/45 in the United States, which is fantastic still. But I dislike Autoblog reporting EU cycles as “US”
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Aug 21st, 2009 (12:55 pm)Or alternatively, they are telling it like it is….
Engineers aren’t marketers.
Seriously though, you have to be driving like a jack-ass to limit your performance. Flooring the speed up montain roads.
Could it happen? Yeah, get 4 300 lb adults in your car plus 300 lbs of equipment and go ski-ing in the middle of winter through dry roads trying to get thier ASAP.
And this will happen to a normal person…… lless than once every 10 years?!?
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Aug 21st, 2009 (12:56 pm)Interesting comments. I’m wondering though if perhaps this debate relates to the prior one about generator operation if one considers a more realistic problem. Take, for example, a person driving from San Francisco to Tahoe (essentially 0′ elevation to about 7900′ elevation at the pass) or maybe an easier problem Fresno to LA (200′ to ~4000′ at the pass). In both cases, the battery is down to the “sustain” level prior to beginning a climb at 55 mph (Tahoe) to 70 mph (Tejon pass to LA). If that “sustain” level is 30% of charge, is that enough to provide normal power through the pass?? If not, since this level is essentially set by software, shouldn’t there be a “mountain driving” mode which allows the generator to try to sustain the charge at say 50% (whatever level is needed to provide adequate power to the top of the pass without causing battery damage?? Does anyone know if GM is considering the possibility of an alternate to the normal charge sustaining mode??
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:06 pm)I raised that question before. My travel for vac, and the Volt is designed for long range right?, is from Central CA to Southern CA (Anaheim) and my concern is after driving 5 hrs on CS mode and passing dozens of slower cars and freight trucks, then I hit the Grapevine through Tejon Pass, somewhere that 30% buffer is going to get burned and you’ll be stuck with a 71.08HP (53KW) putt putt going up through and past Valencia. Now here’s what I see happeniong, since the Genset is designed to sustain only at 30% SOC, somewhere after that buffer is gone, a percentage of that running 53KW genset will HAVE to be used recharge the batt packs SOC up to 30% WHICH means that you will actually grossly encounter that “Power Fade” they were talking about above.
I this scenario, brake regen is going to be marginal because to get an object in motion you have to expell energy and you can NEVER recover no more than 60% of that energy.
I think GM’s response was basically that in a Pikes Peak scenario, you will experince this “Power Fade”, so it’s expected.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:12 pm)lol….
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!
I know a someone who told me a story that he did that to his car to prevent his son from dragg racing it in the streets.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:19 pm)Lucky you guys, my inlaws live here in the same city…..damn.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:21 pm)And remember, HP is measured from the Engine typically.
Depending on your transmission, you may have been seeing significantless less HP at the wheels.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:23 pm)OK, I knew what I meant but on re-reading my post I wasn’t very clear.
To buy an economy car (the Volt is all about saving gas/the world when you get right down to it right?) paying $40k really doesn’t make much sense at all in the context of saving money.
I happen to think the price premium for the leading edge technology (car 2.0 if you will) in the Volt is worth it.
With all due respect, someone who buys a BMW, MB, or Porsche is not doing so for the gas mileage no matter what the car returns.
These cars have different factors inciting people to buy them.
The Volt ’saving the world’…
BMW et al, ‘damn I look good!’
Neither is wrong as far as I’m concerned, just different.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:26 pm)“Seriously though, you have to be driving like a jack-ass to limit your performance. Flooring the speed up montain roads.”
Why you wanna call my wife that?????…..lol
My wife drive’s like a battouttahell.
“Could it happen? Yeah, get 4 300 lb adults in your car plus 300 lbs of equipment and go ski-ing in the middle of winter through dry roads trying to get thier ASAP.”
It’s more like pack 2 adults and 2 kids with all their luggage into the car and drive 370 miles (one way) to Disneyland and back. That’s way more common and it will happen.
See my reply in #24.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:32 pm)Sadly those BMW models do not get to NA.
The smallest gas engine is the 2.3 litre inline 6 @ 200 hp
Only the 3.5 diesel is available.
http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/newvehicles/3series/sedan/2008/carconfigurator/configurator.html
MB does not offer a diesel in the C class in Canada at least. (I likely would be driving one now if they did.)
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:37 pm)Photos of early Volt interior mockups show a button labeled “Hold.” It was speculated here (and I hope it’s true) that this feature allows you to run the range extender before the battery reaches 30% state of charge, so as to save AER for later in a trip.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:40 pm)A BEV with a depleted battery is the ultimate ‘power fade.’
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:45 pm)Ahoy Captain!
I personally am completely onside with diesels but the sales numbers don’t lie. I spent 5 weeks in Europe a couple years back driving a number of different diesel powered cars and they were fantastic, excellent on fuel and lots of power!
I’d LOVE to see a diesel option for the genset, but I understand why GM is going gas for Gen 1. (One less scary change!)
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:47 pm)LOL! yep love my mother-in-law and enjoy visiting them but can drive 6 hours home and definately have space!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:47 pm)Ummm yes and no. For the most part, when a car understands its power requirements and is insolated, efficieny tends to be close together regardless of rpm. IE Gasoline–> Power efficiency.
This is hard to see with a normal car, because of the gearing and RPM shifting.
As I have said in the past. The idea of allowing a User to choose when to use thier battery is only really an efficieny boost for those that know -exactly- when to turn on thier battery power. If you leave even 1 kWh extra in the Battery, you have most likely shot any efficiency gain you were attempting to gain.
In this case, Simple is Better
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:47 pm)pgmikes,
Very good! You took the time to really calculate the cost while I did a “seat of the pants” calculation. I like yours much better.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:48 pm)Good point. But I think that if an alternate mode existed (to try to keep the battery at a higher level of charge, say 50%), then a driver anticipating this condition could switch to that mode enough in advance of the grade so that you could build up that extra reserve. If CARB is the problem here (and I’m only guessing that) they should consider that this minor flexibility would make the car a whole lot more attractive to many people. I’m guessing at depletion of the battery in these hill climbing trips, but GM really needs to make sure a San Fran-Tahoe trip or Central Valley to LA (or vice versa) trip can be handled well or it will significantly impact the market. This is not a couple of cars going to Pike’s Peak (a more severe challenge), this is millions of vehicle trips per year.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:49 pm)IF the 320d hits these shores it would be very tempting to me as much as I like the Volt.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:49 pm)It sounds simple to add a larger engine and generator (and mechanically, it could be since the power path is electrical); but the larger engine/generator would be heavier, which in turn requires more power to carry, needs a larger space (larger body, larger frame, larger radiator), depletes battery charge faster, burns more fuel (requiring a bigger gas tank), etc. You would quickly cascade into an area of diminishing returns.
I think it’s significant that the first engine designed from scratch to go into an EREV is projected to have less displacement than the 1.4 going into the Gen I Volt.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:49 pm)No need to be anxious about asking to plug in. Just behave like a Prius or BMW and do it all with gas like you has no choice.
BTW X-Prize Blog is whining about the 230 mpg EPA number and flogging their MPGe calculation.
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/21/auto-x-prize-throws-water-on-gms-230-mpg-claim-offers-mpge-cal/
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:50 pm)I bought my son a ‘94 Nissan Sentra 1.6 auto…
No drag racing worries!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:50 pm)While this would work some of the time. Unless the car also analyzed traffic patterns and weather conditions, the NAV system wouldn’t consistantly return better results than the “Use Battery ASAP” approach. Since the type of trip your talking about occurs, maybe 6 times a year for the average person, and the fancy NAV system would probably save at best 1 gallon of gas, and at worst cost 1 gallon of gas… Saving between 0-6 gallons of gas a year for all the extra software, testing, and risk seems like low reward.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:52 pm)This is the reason I like the idea to link in the NAV system, it would ‘know’ there is a big hill coming and could bump up the ‘buffer’ to suit.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:54 pm)MuddyRoverRob, I agree!
But I might be able to add something for the bystanders.
Not only does some of the energy (30%? maybe less in the Volt?) heat the battery as you recharge. I say this because readers who first start reading about hybrids seem to think that the regenerative system creates energy, which is, of course, impossible. It’s a lot less inefficient than conventional brakes (which turns the car’s kinetic energy into heat) to stop, but maintaining a steady speed is still more efficient, just so long as you’re cruising in one of the engine’s sweet spots.
Also, conventional hybrids are limited by the size of the electric motor as to how hard they can regeneratively brake — you can really feel it if the brake discs/drums are rusty. In a 2nd-gen Prius, it may take 4-5 stopsigns before you do enough mechanical braking to rub the rust off the brakes, whereas in a more conventional vehicle will usually wear the rust off of the brakes as I tap the brakes when I’m done backing out of the driveway. (On my Ranger, this tap also automatically adjusts the brake shoes.)
So, Greg Woulf, regenerative braking won’t really compensate for aggressive driving. But it won’t hurt your efficiency as much as it would on a conventional version of the same car. And, yes, I’ve verified this experimentally in a market-leading hybrid.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:55 pm)“It will just slow down on even gradual inclines. Hey, it’s underpowered. Get used to it!”
Only if you simply MUST travel at 100 mph. At the far more reasonable, but still exceeds every speed limit, 80 mph, the Volt will grin at grades up to 3-4%… without dipping into the battery
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Aug 21st, 2009 (1:57 pm)That’s not how I understood the thread. I thought they said basically the same thing Pasawitz is saying here: “you may experience some power limitations”. It did not say you “will” experience it. Driving 55mph or 70mph, I don’t think there is any scenario that you will experience power limitation unless you accellerate hard then slam on the brakes several times in a row.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:00 pm)Sure it would, if the top speed was desired to be 120 mph with an accerelation of around 8+ seconds.
Back in the real world, people expect a Vette to have max speeds over 175 mph, and 0-60 times in the sub 5 range. Thus the much higher power of the cars.
I also found the Ford explanation great. “We feel that you will get power fade if you go 0 to Max, coast to brake and repeat 4-5 times” Ummm… great, don’t make an EREV dragster. Translation: We don’t have the RD cash to bet on two horses. So we are going to make excuses why we aren’t following EREV
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:05 pm)I personally am on the highway much more than 6 times a year but get that not everyone is.
You are likely somewhat right about in city driving, but that wasn’t the subject of the post.
What was being discussed was ways the Volt could ‘pad’ it’s buffer to allow for geographical ‘challenges’ such as Mountain passes on long drives. I think a NAV system is a natural tool to use here, it has a map and your route, assuming it is a GOOD map with elevation changes it seems pretty straight forward that one could compute the energy needed over the next 50 km or so.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:12 pm)Electric motor ~ heat.
Interstate 15 from San Diego to Las Vegas features a mean 6 mile grade at 5% called the Halloran pass. Motor homes have been known to catch on fire and melt at the roadside, uncountable radiator hoses have burst, unfocused drivers have run out of fuel. Winter temperatures are 50f-70f. Summer temperatures are 70f-110f. Just 70 miles South of Death Valley.
Will the battery cooling system have a branch to a cooling coil for the electric motor? Or is all cooling via airflow? Will the nose of the Volt louver open for cooling assist?
=D~
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:14 pm)It would be nice to hear how many charges the battery can take over the term of its warranty. But I believe that charging twice a day would shorten its projected life span of ten years. How much is the question but even if we figure it proportionally (150,000 miles in in just over five years – N.Riley above), the cost of a new battery will most likely be down from its current replacement cost.
As I said here in posts before, feedback on current research indicates the weight and size of batteries will reduce over the next few years and thus the cost of a direct replacement. On the other side, a battery pack of the same size would mean more power and greater AER and/or longer life span. Even same size packs with greater capacity will probably cost less than the current pack.
You should consider the reduced maintenance cost of an EV over an ordinary ICE car in your evaluation of whether it is affordable. I’m sure you have considered this factor. Save on gas, save on cost of maintenance, and anticipate lower cost of a replacement battery in the near future. GM has indicated that the battery should still be usable after 150,000 miles; just won’t give the same AER. Even with 80% degradation over ten years, there should be plenty of performance left in the battery. It will be interesting to hear what more GM says about battery performance after the warranty expires.
Good luck Rashiid Amul.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:16 pm)Also in that photo you can see the haze to which vehicle emissions contribute generously.
That’s something the Volt will reduce – haze from emissions.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:18 pm)The genset for an EREV ambulance should have a diesel turning a hefty generator. It will power quite a lot more than a motor driving the wheels (all that medical equipment).
Perhaps a separate Li/Ion pack would be provided to run the medical equipment (lower voltage, less peak power but more energy storage).
A Voltec-derived emergency vehicle should also have a surge buffer of high-performance batteries or ultracapacitors which can be recharged from the engine (yes, I said recharged) expressly to prevent the kind of power fade described in the article. Being capable of many more cycles, a 1kwh buffer could be charged and depleted hundreds of times over a shift. I’d expect a conventional Li/Ion traction battery to be little used, except for a police cruiser to have a ’stealth mode.’ These kinds of vehicles are seldom in a garage long enough to take a charge, so asphalt-ripping performance over long periods (in a kind of ‘charge sustain mode’) will be the overriding design concern.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:19 pm)“To buy an economy car (the Volt is all about saving gas/the world when you get right down to it right?) paying $40k really doesn’t make much sense at all in the context of saving money.”
Perhaps it will boil down to just this some day, but I disagree completely that EV’s are or should only be about saving money. For a lot of people it is about (sing along since everybody should know this tune by now): not burning oil, not sending $300B+ overseas every year, not relying on less than freindly countries for a resource vital to our economy and self-defense, reducing particulate pollution, reducing noise pollution, decoupling performance from significant cost/weight increases, drivetrain longevity, insurance against gas price volatility, etc.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:20 pm)You are right of course!
But there wouldn’t be nearly as many posts if we let it lie!
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:22 pm). . . front mounted taser cannons to disable any vehicle’s electrical system and strike fear into the hearts of all miscreants who behold them.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:22 pm)I DID add saving the world too..
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:29 pm)She’s got an MS from Stanford, so I now agree with everything she said
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:31 pm)To have an engine recharge a pack as you drive, you would need much more expensive batteries which can stand more cycles over their life than the ones going into the Volt.
I think an excellent compromise would be to have a small surge buffer of (much more expensive) high-performance batteries (such as some being worked on now at places like MIT), or ultracapacitors, of maybe 1kwh capacity between the motor and the rest of the traction/electrical system.
Your engine or battery would try to keep this ’surge bucket’ topped up halfway at all times for that sudden energy spurt you need for performance (and to accept regeneration from even an extremely hard stop). This would allow a relatively small generator and modestly powerful battery to perform like a sports car, with no loss of efficiency.
Unfortunately, it is not yet economical to provide this kind of surge buffer (but it could be available soon).
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:38 pm)Of course a limiting factor for the almost infinite hill climb with an ICE is that the oxygen gets thin, and then ICE only vehicles suffer from power fade too!
I’m confident that the GM engineers have made sensible choices.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:39 pm)That will be like my situation by the time I can get the chance to purchase a Volt I will be retired and driving a lot less. When I am driving it will be short distances around town. I suspect my wife would put most of the miles on the car. We would use it maybe a dozen times a year for longer out in the country trips of around 120 miles round trip with one or two 1200 to 1500 round trip vacation miles thrown in. For most of my driving, now and later, a good BEV with 100 MPC would do OK for me. Except I want to trim down to having only one car (Volt) and one truck. Maybe not even the truck. I still want to travel around the country some after retirement, so having the range extending mode of the Volt is a necessity.
My commute is only 20 miles round trip. Not exactly anywhere similar to Rashiid’s or Murray’s. I had a brother-in-law that commuted about 120 miles round trip daily for about 20 years. He bought a new Nissan Sentra and drove it until he put about 300,000 miles on it. He would then sell it to someone in the community for a few hundred (or whatever he could get) and then go out and buy himself another Sentra. He bought the cheapest “good” car he could find that he felt would hold up and still give him good mileage. It worked out real good for him.
If you, Rashiid, want to buy a Volt to be a part of the “new revolution”, then you should do it. If the battery is still good at the end of the first 150,000 miles, great. If not you can upgrade the battery or just run it mostly as an ICE car and hopefully get 40 – 50 MPG. Not a bad assumption, I would think.. After all, money is not the only thing to be considered. I say that if you want it, go for it.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:40 pm)I just don’t think transitioning to diesels in NA makes sense. For one it would require a greater diesel supply and put stresses on refineries. It also takes so much $$ to modify them to pass US emissions regulations that they are not worth it. Just wait till HCCI comes out and we’ll have nearly diesel-like engines using clean gas, without the added cost and weight of particulate filters/etc. Give it 5 years or so to come out (maybe in EREVs…), and another 10 to fall in price. By then we’ll be glad we didn’t bother switching to diesel.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:42 pm)It would not reduce your total lifetime cycles one iota and in reality you would get more out of the battery than drivers with less use. Batteries lose capacity from the calendar as well as cycles and misuse. The more cycles per day the less that is lost to the calendar. It is likely Rashiid will get 170+K from the battery as long as 150K is legit for the 10 year warranty period. Then the battery doesn’t die but the range starts to shrink.
Let’s say Rashiid only gets 150K before he wants a replacement. If his alternative choice would average 35mpg, this is 4258 gallons of gas savings. This doesn’t seem like a bad proposition to me, especially when you consider what gas and batteries will likely cost when a replacement batter pack is needed.
Those with excessive commutes and opportunity charging at the office are the ideal customer for the Volt. This is one of the scenarios that makes the most financial sense for an EREV or BEV.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:50 pm)It doesn’t make sense to protect the battery like this.
In this case you will have wasted a lot of money for a battery with little use. Kind of like pre-purchasing 15K miles for a lease and only driving 5K.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:51 pm)DonC, “Just depends on what you need, what you want, and what you can afford”
If it has comfortable seats I would use it for long hauls, if I do any, and short commutes as well. I can’t afford to send more friends and family as troops shoring up our petroleum supply lines.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (2:54 pm)LRGVProVplt,
While I certainly agree with you about the reduction in cost and size of the battery and the likelyhood of an increase in the power reserves of the future battery, don’t you think the newer, future batteries may not function under the older Volt’s Battery Management System and the Volt’s overall systems programming? In other words, it may require a lot more than a simple battery replacement. The Volt may have to undergo some hardware upgrades and reprogramming (installing a new operating system and BMS) to name just a few things. We may not know what all may have to be considered until we “cross that bridge” sometime in the future. A lot of unanswered questions. It would be like trying to install a new modern Windows operating system and business software on a 1990 desktop. It may be a job too big to do. With computers, we just “throw them out” and replace them with a new, modern machine. With the Volt, we may have to do the hardware and software upgrading along with a new battery. I wonder if GM has thought about that? I bet someone there has, but I will also bet there is no solution at this point in time. Too many unknowns still exist. Right, GM?
“Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.” Nice and thanks, “Roy”.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (3:01 pm)Rashid:
You’d better figure more for the electrical costs (like double it)…here in CT we pay ~$0.20/kWh.
I’m pretty much in the same situation (75 mile round trip commute), but my company has already agreed to install an outlet for me to charge during the day.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (3:01 pm)The one caveat to “not transitioning to diesels in NA” is the possibility of perfecting the algae-to-biodiesel fuel technology in the near term. This would completely change the rules (availability of fractions from refining crude becomes irrelevant), and would make a transition to diesel not only possible but imperative to displace imported petroleum.
It should also be noted that the algae could be grown using CO2 from coal burning electrical plants, and that the resulting biofuel would burn with much cleaner results than the choking soot clouds we’re more familiar with from diesel engines today.
And yes, it’s more likely to take longer than the proponents think to iron out the kinks in the plan and ramp it up to significant levels.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (3:03 pm)Rashiid
With greatest respect, I think you have the argument backward. It is those drivers who go more than 40 miles each day who get the greatest benefit from the Volt. That is, they (and potentially you) get the whole benefit of the whole big battery every day. Pikers like me, at only 15 miles a day, “lose” most of our battery investment.
You are in the catbird seat.
rb
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Aug 21st, 2009 (3:05 pm)Carcus1,
I suspect GM is not still working out as much as we may think. I believe they don’t want to let too much out that their competition can use. I can’t say I blame them. They surely do have a lot of things to still “test and fine tune”, but the basics are done and are being improved as best as they can by now. Of course, I could be wrong. I am sometimes.
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Aug 21st, 2009 (3:07 pm)“why speed up to 100 mph?”
All I can tell you is … people do.
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