Aug 20

Charging the Chevy Volt

 

Recently GM revealed the production charging equipment that will come with the Volt when it can finally be bought.

There will be a portable 120 V unit (R) that can be plugged into any standard receptacle. It will be able to recharge the car fully in 6 hours at 12 amps or 8 hours at 8 amps.

The other device option (L) is a 240 V stationary wall-mounted unit that has to be installed in the owners garage per code. This unit running at 16 amps can recharge the Volt in 3 hours.

Both utilize a newly ratified interface or coupler standard called SAE J1772, that provides durability, communications, and safety functions and well as universal usability among EVs.

The Volt charging units are very robust and designed to withstand even a complete dunk in a bucket of water. As well, there is a flashlight at the tip for finding the receptacle on the car even in the dark.

Furthermore, importantly, the system is designed so the car cannot drive when it is plugged in. The Volt also has a small LED bulb on the top of the dash that flashes when the car is charging so you can tell from a distance.

I actually proposed to GM that they offer a optional charger also capable of 240V 48 amp charging. At that rate, the Volt could be recharged in about 45 minutes. This would be a great feature for those who want it, and would help to encourage infrastructure development as people could recharge their Volts a rest stops in as much time as it takes to have dinner. It would be a great marketing tool as well.

Volt exec Tony Posawatz poured a little water on my enthusiasm.

“Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.”

Anyway you too can have a chance to ask questions directly of Gery Kissel, GM’s engineering specialist who developed the Volt’s charging equipment right here below on a live webchat at 2PM EDT:

This entry was posted on Thursday, August 20th, 2009 at 7:34 am and is filed under Charging. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 339


  1. 1
    Tagamet

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:41 am)

    Another milestone!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    NPNS!!


  2. 2
    Ken

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:46 am)

    Ok – if the Volt can handle the 220v @ 48 amps then it sounds like a business opportunity for an aftermarket charger. Any EEs out there that would like to collaborate on one? Ken.


  3. 3
    jdenn

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:47 am)

    3 hours? Thats great. Are there any smart people here who can confirm or deny that charging is not linear? i.e, getting that last 10% of charge takes longer than say, the middle 10% of charge?


  4. 4
    Joe

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:48 am)

    The reason the higher amp charge is no supported, I believe, is not for safety reasons. Both are of the same voltage so both are equally dangerous. The reason is, fast charges are traditionally harder on batteries.


  5. 5
    Herm

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:50 am)

    Lithium manganese spinel chemistry can handle 1 hour full charging routinely, faster for partial charges… apparently it is a limitation of the built-in charger. You should still plug it in every chance you get.


  6. 6
    Neutron Flux

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:56 am)

    Thats amazing this post is less than 3 minutes old & already 5 posts as if we are powered ourselves by the Volt. And I thought for once I might see a virgin post by Lyle. Flashing light bulb on the dash, don’t you mean LED. Light bulbs are so 20th century.


  7. 7
    Thomas Gilling

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:57 am)

    Will GM provide replacement’s if they break, or if it breaks the car will GM fix my car? If so do we know the price?


  8. 8
    frankyB

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:00 am)

    Where I think there is a business opportunity is to have some form of prepaid/credit card/cellphone recharge station.

    That could easily answer the need for existing parking in building. I know I would use it. If you can pay for a 14$-20$ parking place, you can easily afford an extra 5$ to recharge. You pay the full 5$, for 1hr or for 8hrs, keeps the model simple for everyone. Create a genuin business opportunity as over time, the infrastructure/installation cost needed can be paid back. This is also where the 48AMP would make more sense.

    If the locking system is to hard to do (to make sure no one else use your “juice”) just assign specific parking place for green car distant enough from each other so the cable is not long enough to reach it (easy solution).


  9. 9
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:01 am)

    Since you have to modify the car, it may void the warranty..

    Either provide an external access point to the 400v DC bus for an external charger or beef up the existing on-board charger or add a second heavy duty on-board charger.. plus some changes to the software.

    Someone will have the honor to be the first person electrocuted by a Volt :)

    The mod I would like to see is an inductive charging pad to be placed on the garage floor.


  10. 10
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:02 am)

    Thonas G
    Lets just get the car produced and on the road first. Or maybe that’s a good question for the chat this PM.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  11. 11
    RamZ

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:02 am)

    So using the fast charge, will it shorten the life of the batteries at all? It must heat up more but if the battereies are cooled optimally will that control battery life?


  12. 12
    Shock Me

     

    Shock Me
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:04 am)

    45 minute recharges would place opportunity charging at restaurants, cinemas, rest areas, grocery stores, and malls.

    180 minute recharges limit opportunities to home, hotels, theme parks, camp grounds, and regional malls. (and of course other recreation destinations such as bars, dance clubs, casinos, and pool halls)

    Hopefully public recharging can be done securely and be resistant to theft and vandalism over so long a period of time.


  13. 13
    Herm

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:06 am)

    That is true if we were charging the full 16kwh of the battery pack, but since all we are charging is the 50% in the middle then we pretty much get nearly perfect linear charging.

    You will get that non-linear effect when charging the Nissan Leaf, that one uses 70% SOC discharge/recharge..


  14. 14
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:08 am)

    RamZ,
    I’m no expert, but I think the “jolt” chargers that charge in 30 minutes – like the LEAF- could shorten life. Hence the shorter warranty of 5 years on the LEAF. Someone will (please) correct me if I’m wrong on this.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  15. 15
    Herm

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:10 am)

    Cooling is essential to prolong life.. but 1 hour charges are considered normal for lithium batteries. Most of the heating effects occur when the battery is nearly fully charged or discharged.. the Volt battery never sees that by design.


  16. 16
    KUD

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:13 am)

    That is what I was thinking as I read it. If it isn’t outrageously priced I would buy it.


  17. 17
    NASA-Eng

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:14 am)

    For what it’s worth I would LOVE the 48 amp charger. I just had my electrical service upgraded and my Oven/Range is a 50 amp circuit. 48 amps would be a little close, but it’s not like you couldn’t have that added or run in parallel with your Oven/Range. A simple Selector Switch in your garage, laundry room etc. could be used so it’s not a big expense to add in without having to increase your total House Power. A friend of mine added 100 amps (House Standard is 200 amps) So obviously that becomes no issue if you have a work shop or just want the extra power. 48 amps of the100 amps to a work shop could easily be doubled up as your car charging station.

    I think your correct Lyle to believe this is the way of the future. On a Saturday come home from running errands, plug your volt in and 45 minutes later your powered up again.

    I firmly believe if the car takes hold it, GM will quickly partner with a nationally recognized restaurant and offer fast fill charging stations…

    Todd


  18. 18
    Herm

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:14 am)

    “Hopefully public recharging can be done securely and be resistant to theft and vandalism over so long a period of time.”

    Inductive pad charging would take care of all that.. now is the time for the Feds to setup a pad standard, before the market gets flooded with 20 different brands of BEV.

    Note that this is not your traditional electric toothbrush charger, but a high efficiency wireless power transfer over a distance of about 1 foot.


  19. 19
    Tagamet

     

    Tagamet
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:14 am)

    Herm,
    Well put.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  20. 20
    Brian

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:16 am)

    There is a saftey issue 48 amps off a single circuit is a lot of current off a house hold SEP(service entrance panel). If your house wiring is not in great shape things could start getting hot. Even 12amps for 6 hours in some cases things could get a little warm. A little forthought needs to be applied to where you plug the thing in to. For example: I don’t know why it keeps popping the circuit beaker its only a 200 foot long extension cord, “directions” didn’t have time to read them!! I can make anthing work its under warranty.


  21. 21
    Thomas Gilling

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:27 am)

    I understand that you want to have the Volt go into production, but thing’s have to be though out before hand. We cannot have Dave buy his Volt and then by acting like a complete Dave break his charger or even worse his car and then have no replacement or anyone to mend it. Of course a simple solution to this is to not let anyone with the name Dave buy a Volt.


  22. 22
    nuclearboy

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:28 am)

    And another good subject article from Lyle.


  23. 23
    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:30 am)

    Are you kidding? Tony Posawatz said, “Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps”; he also said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.” There’s no need to modify the car and void the warranty. This does look like an opportunity for after market, Ken.

    I like the fact that GM has considered including the light on the plug’s end and the indicator lightbulb on the top of the dash.

    Go Volt!


  24. 24
    old man

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:31 am)

    My wish is that a plug in 220/240 volt cord could be optional. I have a 220 plug at my house and one of my sons in law has a 220 Volt outlet.

    I agree with all those who see an opportunity make fast charging stations. Those who own parking lots could start with a few spots and expand as needed. Most would pay twice what the juice cost rather than to pay 4+ times the cost for gas.


  25. 25
    kdawg

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:32 am)

    From Lyle’s article – “Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.”
    ————-

    Greg Ciesel (on the GM site) said the Volt charger can only accept about 3300W, and also commented other interesting things.

    First
    “You will have two options to charge the Chevy Volt. You can plug it into a 120V outlet or use 240V. Using 120V the on board charger will use 1,200 watts, which is about the maximum power available from a standard household outlet. This will charge the Volt in about 8 hours. We expect many people will want to use 240V for charging because it will charge the Volt in less than 3 hours. At 240V the charger will draw 3,300 watts.”

    Then

    The Chevy Volt charger is designed to accept a wide range of voltages from below 120V to above 240V and 50 / 60 Hz power to accommodate global usage. The Volt charger will be available with different plug configurations, including the most common plug configurations used in Europe for 230V. The charger design is limited to 3.3 kW and does not go up to 400V so it will not support charging at 43 kW. We realize there is interest in charging at rates above 3.3 kW and we are investigating this. One thing to consider is I would not expect 400V 3 phase 63A power to be available in a residential area but it could be available in a commercial area to allow a customer to charge while visiting a store, restaurant or other location. The cost, mass and size of a charger that operates at 43 kW would likely be off board the vehicle.


  26. 26
    RB

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:33 am)

    “The Volt charging units are very robust and designed to withstand even a complete dunk in a bucket of water. As well, there is a flashlight at the tip for finding the receptacle on the car even in the dark.”
    ————————

    Good engineering. Some days will be sunny, but surely not all.


  27. 27
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:35 am)

    Herm,
    The cars on the receiving end need that tech built in too. Gen I probably won’t have it, so the Feds need to get the standard for both sides of the equation developed first – THEN implemented (publicly, or privately).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  28. 28
    RB

     

    RB
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:36 am)

    ““Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.”
    ——–
    Good decision not to offer from the factory. Among other things, the wire for 48 amps is going to be bigger and harder to handle. So this capability is possibly an after-market opportunity, but taking advantage will require some planning to do smoothly and well.


  29. 29
    LRGVProVolt

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:40 am)

    The last little percentage of charge must be slowed down to get to 100% without damaging the battery cells; this is why the pack can be charged the lesser amount of time. GM has thought the whole battery pack and charging circuitry out very well. I believe its the last 10% on both ends that effects battery life. On the low low end, GM provides additional discharge to assist in generator mode when necessary. On the upper end, it looks like they are providing additional assurances that the battery will be protected during charging.


  30. 30
    Zel

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:41 am)

    Not fair! Wait! I do go by David/Zel…….never mind.


  31. 31
    Tagamet

     

    Tagamet
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:41 am)

    old man
    The could have really fast chargers at brothels too (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  32. 32
    kdawg

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:41 am)

    i want an external 10KW charger, that has multiple types of connections. I can plug it into 120V 1PH, 480V 3PH, DC, whatever.
    It would probably cost a lot, but i could charge my car in under an hour. I’d throw the “universal” charger in my trunk and use it when necessary.


  33. 33
    RB

     

    RB
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:42 am)

    “..since you have to modify the car..”
    ———–
    That’s not clear. Maybe gm gives access, possibly even though the standard connector.


  34. 34
    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:45 am)

    Joe, I agree but there will be individuals who will acquire the higher amperage charger when it is available. Besides with the SAE J1772 coupler there shouldn’t be any danger as long as the owner doesn’t go tinkering with the wires.


  35. 35
    Brian in canada

     

    Brian in canada
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:47 am)

    Theft prevention? Does it lock onto the car?


  36. 36
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:47 am)

    Great Lyle,

    I kwow people that will be interested across the Atlantic Ocean where some questions about standardization are still open.

    Regards,

    JC


  37. 37
    David

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:47 am)

    LOL, exactly. Forgot to mention: “I cannot understand why my 100 foot extnsion cord burst into flames…All I was doing was charging my car with 95 feet of the extension cord stil tightly wound around the storage reel/spool!


  38. 38
    RB

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:51 am)

    Some particulars of interest are —>

    Does either unit come with the car at no extra charge, or is the post saying that one (or the other) will be available for purchase?

    And, how long is the cable, on each one?


  39. 39
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:52 am)

    That’s just not all that optimistic Tag!

    Welcome back!


  40. 40
    DonC

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:52 am)

    I believe someone from GM has said the charging isn’t linear. They didn’t exactly say this of course. What I remember being said is that you could get an 80% charge in about 45 minutes using the 240 line.

    Maybe someone else can remember more exactly or provide a cite. And it’s a great question for the Q&A.


  41. 41
    Tagamet

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:56 am)

    Muddyrover,
    Actually at a certain age “quick” IS optimistic! (lol).
    Glad to be back and yet another first post too!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  42. 42
    Shock Me

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:58 am)

    Yes. We only read what the battery is capable of accepting not whether the hardware between the interface port and the battery is capable of handling that much power.

    Would be a very useful feature though if possible.


  43. 43
    Dave G

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:58 am)

    First, thanks Lyle for giving us the production charger details. This is really important, and has been discussed relatively little.

    As for the 240 volt 48 amp 45 minute charging possibility, yes we always knew the batteries could go that fast, but when you say “encourage infrastructure development”, I interpret this rolling blackouts. That’s the only way to get power companies to change things. And in this scenario, I’m worried that plug-in cars could get some negative press…

    For these reasons, many plug-in experts are urging that people only plug in at night, when electrical usage is much lower. And if you only plug-in at night, then then there is no advantage to 240v charging, and the higher power draw would be worse for the grid. So it would be better to charge both at home and away from home using the 120v option.

    How many 120v vehicle charge cords are provided with the Volt?

    How much do they cost if you lose or break one?


  44. 44
    Schmeltz

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:03 am)

    I think the looks and the operablility of both chargers are done well. And I strongly agree with Lyle on the 240V – 48 Amp charging ability–GM needs to make the car as flexible as possible. It is E-Flex afterall–LOL!


  45. 45
    Van

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:03 am)

    Not first generation, but I expect we will all have a charging plate on the floor of our garage, and wheel blocks to assure alignment, Just park it and when the time is right for the lowest cost juice, the car will recharge automatically. But that is down the road a tad. :)


  46. 46
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:03 am)

    Wow. Charging up your Volt in 45 minutes. THAT is something that will be very attractive to people. I bet a whole new sub-industry gets created in the next 10 years … upgrades of home electrical systems. THAT will create lots of jobs for electricians in the new “green economy” that’s coming in the next few years. The local colleges better start gearing up to train more of them.

    I’m sure it’ll be fairly expensive to get the upgrade in your house at first but there still should be a good sized market of people with the money to do it. It will probably add value to your house if you ever sell it. Same thing for other household products like “Energy Star” water heaters, A/C heat pumps, etc. You might even see tax incentives and discounts. Who knows?

    There will be plenty of people who want to make sure their pure electric car or E-REV gets fed ELECTRONS as often as possible instead of that crude, 20th century, old fashioned, polluting product we call gasoline.


  47. 47
    max_headroom

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:07 am)

    “It will be able to recharge the car fully in 6 hours at 12 amps or 8 hours at 8 amps.”

    Does the user decide this and how? Via software?

    Just curious.

    Thanks


  48. 48
    DonC

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:08 am)

    Yes more watts are harder on the batteries so you’re doubtless right that in an effort to protect “The Diva” they’ve limited the amperage. However more amps would be more dangerous as well. Volts by themselves are not per se dangerous, which is why tasers can use such extremely high voltages without inflicting permanent harm.


  49. 49
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:08 am)

    Herm,

    As much as the inductive pad seems like a great idea in theory, in practice they tend to be pretty inefficent.


  50. 50
    DonC

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:12 am)

    You pay the full 5$, for 1hr or for 8hrs, keeps the model simple for everyone.

    Apparently public chargers will use the flat rate without respect to time in order to avoid the state prohibitions against “selling electricity”. (Once the government creates a monopoly it has to protect it).


  51. 51
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:13 am)

    I haven’t read the standard, but usually there is a ‘negotiation’ between the charger and the battery controller which defines the current flow.

    It seems that it would be quite possible to build a ‘robust’ 48 amp charger that would do the job nicely.

    I bet GM would even work with that company to ‘certify’ said charger.


  52. 52
    LRGVProVolt

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:14 am)

    Ok, second attempt to post this message. I hope I don’t cancel like before. lol

    Altairnano is a company that produces a lithium-titanium oxide battery using nano technology. Their battery does not have the problem with thermal run-away that typical computer batteries have had. Additionally they work at extreme climate temperatures at both ends of the scale. They can be charged in under 15 minutes without the slow-down in charging that other lithium-ion batteries have. GM probably did not consider them as they are a relatively new company and do not have the capability to produce their cells in sufficient quantities that GM wiil need down the road. Phoenix Motorcar planned to use their batteries in a rather nice looking SUT and future SUV.

    My point is that the technology is advancing quickly with all the research for better materials as result of investment in this industry.
    As I have said before, over a short time GM will be able to upgrade the battery pack of the Volt and give owners greater AER.


  53. 53
    N Riley

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:14 am)

    Some of the same questions I was preparing to ask. I bet there are no answers to them at this time. Too early, I suppose, for GM to commit to a price and such. I certainly would want a charge cord/station in the Volt and one in my garage. I would not want to open the hatchback each night to take one out to plug it into the receptacle prior to plugging it into the Volt.

    I also hope the Volt is designed with a storage area (lock down) for the cord and its equipment to be stored in the back of the Volt.


  54. 54
    Gordon Green

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:14 am)

    Questions for Gery Kissel.

    I wonder if GM will be providing this charger equipment to apartment owners?

    Will the tenant pay for kWh used? How will the cost be assessed? Does this equipment have the ability to talk to software to determine this? Or will a flat surcharge on all rents be needed to cover the added cost for those who use the Volt charger?

    Is GM thinking this through?


  55. 55
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:17 am)

    I’ll go out on a limb and guess that the 120v comes with the car and the 220 will be extra.

    I’ll get both.


  56. 56
    DonC

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:18 am)

    You’re right of course that a 1C charge is always considered normal, but 3C or 4C charges do put less stress on the battery. (Note that even a one hour charge for the Volt would still be 2C since only half the pack is used.) However, it’s the discharge rate which is the bigger issue for EVs.

    More broadly, I can understand why the engineers decided to err of the side of caution on charging. The Volt after all has a very fast charge system — it’s called the genset!


  57. 57
    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:19 am)

    It’s probably an option at purchase time! Standard would have the 110 v unit. There was an article awhile ago that told how long the cord is.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  58. 58
    DonC

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:24 am)

    I think the standards bodies should be allowed to do their work and the federal government should stay out of as much of the process as much as possible. It could play a role in moving things along — and perhaps intervene if there is too much squabbling — but private parties are better positioned to actually write the standards.

    From what I’ve seen the standards are moving along fairly nicely so at this point things would best be left alone.


  59. 59
    N Riley

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:26 am)

    My thinking exactly. Let the after-market handle it since it would installed in a physical location and not something you would probably want to carry around in the Volt. More suitable to quick charge stations at malls and such.


  60. 60
    LRGVProVolt

     

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:27 am)

    I believe that thee last 10% of the charge must be done slowly for the batteries to equalize properly. So the charger must put less electricity in over the final charge period.


  61. 61
    DonC

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:27 am)

    Tagamet says The could have really fast chargers at brothels too (g)

    I notice everyone draws from their own personal experience …. ;-)

    Actually that was very funny.


  62. 62
    LRGVProVolt

     

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:33 am)

    Thanks kdawg for saving me time looking at GM website.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  63. 63
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    MuddyRoverRob
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:33 am)

    I’m sure it’ll be called a ‘service charge’ for the use of the equipment and then they can charge the line rate for the juice.

    Fair actually.


  64. 64
    N Riley

     

    N Riley
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:36 am)

    I would expect the 120V equipment will be included, but you could opt for the 240V equipment instead. It will be like a lot of optional equipment, the dealer will have the faster charger available and will swap out the slower charger for the small sum of $???.??.


  65. 65
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:38 am)

    LOL!

    I give you that!

    .. saying ‘first’ could get you lots of negative votes you know… ;-)


  66. 66
    N Riley

     

    N Riley
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:40 am)

    Tag,

    You meant to say “Well put, I think” didn’t you.


  67. 67
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:45 am)

    I figure those new house based sodium-sulfur batteries will play into this as well. At ~$2k for 20kw you will be able to store a good amount of power at home.

    I see having two of them, 1 for the Volt and one for the household requirements.

    Stick a couple solar cells on the roof and a wind generator in the back yard and you have an ‘almost’ off grid operation.


  68. 68
    Jackson

    +2

     

    Jackson
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:45 am)

    I would think that the 120V cord would come with the car, period.

    If you wanted the 240V charger, or a second 120V cord, you’d buy that from the dealer.


  69. 69
    N Riley

     

    N Riley
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:45 am)

    I agree there needs to be a “standard” set-up, but it can be done without the Feds being integral in the process. The auto companies, electrical industry and electrical suppliers know much better than the government what can and should be done. The Feds should act only if no industry action is being taken.

    Herm, since you are a champion of inductive charging pads, how much would that type of equipment cost on the vehicle and on the pad versus what GM is introducing? Cost must be a consideration.


  70. 70
    Tagamet

    +2

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:46 am)

    Muddy and Donc
    Thanks. When I can’t laugh at myself, I’ll rollup my blanket and quit.

    Noting that I had a “first” post, in the 13th thread should minimize the neg votes. If not, I’ll consider the source(s) (G).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  71. 71
    N Riley

     

    N Riley
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:48 am)

    Someone else may partner with that nationally recognized restaurant, but I would be surprised if GM did. Just my opinion.


  72. 72
    Jackson

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:48 am)

    Let’s not forget that the Volt’s pack has an active cooling loop (and will no doubt have an electric coolant pump and an electric fan on it’s radiator / heat exchangers). If the battery starts to heat during charge from any source, I’d expect this system to activate to protect it.


  73. 73
    N Riley

    +1

     

    N Riley
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:51 am)

    I thought brothels were fast chargers already.


  74. 74
    Jackson

    +1

     

    Jackson
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:54 am)

    This isn’t all bad news. A charger to handle higher voltages/currents would be a lot heavier and larger than the stock unit, and very few people would actually use it. Why condemn everyone to carry that extra weight around?

    … so looks like there would have to access to the DC bus to get a quicker charge than 3 hours. The issue remains: will GM allow this access, and under what circumstances? This seems to get us back to the ‘quick charge’ scenarios where something automatic accesses the dangerous contact points from underneath the car.


  75. 75
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:55 am)

    I bet the Volt comes with the 120v charger as part of the car.

    As for negotiating charging rights in some apartment building, that really isn’t GM’s job is it?

    If you are in this situation you will need to talk to your landlord to negotiate the terms. I’m sure most property management companies will see the advantages of the ‘green halo’ and will work with you.

    My Volt will live in my garage happily plugged in at 220v.


  76. 76
    texas

     

    texas
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:56 am)

    The chargers look very nice. Maybe too nice? I don’t want people walking away with such nice, shiny items. Can we use a “sleeper” cord that is ugly, covered with paint and can be used with the charge cover locked? Just a thought for Volt 2.0. I saw a few charging systems for European EVs and some had this locking cap (with a space for only the cord, not the plug). The public charging stations also had such a locking system. Anyone wanting to steal your cord would only end up with the wire sans plugs. Funny but not useful to the thief.

    Other than that, Everything looks great and thank you GM for following the latest standard.

    Can someone ask Gery about the communications capabilities? Perhaps what is GM’s game plan for connection to smart-grids?

    I know this is a further out but was there any communication with Better Place so the Volt can be compatible with their coming charge points (Hawaii and California so far)? Probably not.

    P.S. Nice touch for including the flashlight.


  77. 77
    D.

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:57 am)

  78. 78
    Jackson

    +4

     

    Jackson
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:00 am)

    I believe commercial units in public places will lead the way.

    Unless something like this comes along:

    http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html

    It may not matter what size the service in your home is if you can deliver the necessary charge from a separate in-home battery system.


  79. 79
    Jackson

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:02 am)

    Welcome back, Tag; you were missed.


  80. 80
    texas

     

    texas
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:05 am)

    Man, Altairnano? Wow, haven’t heard that name in a long time. Too much talk, not enough walk? Did they go out of business yet? Anybody got the 411 on them?


  81. 81
    Jackson

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:08 am)

    Thank you (also posted here at #19).

    The link is more relevant to this thread; if you store energy slowly at your house, you can theoretically release it at a higher rate to charge an EV quickly.

    Perhaps someone could come up with an integrated charger / battery system just for this purpose.

    You could also literally charge an EV using solar PV arrays on your house (instead of selling the energy to the utility during the day, and replacing it at night when you charge).


  82. 82
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:09 am)

    Thread 13 is DEFINATELY the funniest so far today!


  83. 83
    David

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:09 am)

    I know this isn’t directly related to charging, but I’ve read in other posts that the car & battery can be conditioned using plug power in very cold/hot weather to bring the cabin & battery closer to normal room temperature and avoid having to drain the battery to do the conditioning. Does anyone know if there will be some kind of remote control or remote signaling so a person could tell the car to start conditioning itself (say, from inside a house), without having to go to the car, open the door, and press some kind of button inside the car?


  84. 84
    MuddyRoverRob

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:18 am)

    Yep!

    Solar powered Volts in a realistic fashion.

    I like it!


  85. 85
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:18 am)

    That might just be a good question @ 2pm today… ;-)


  86. 86
    CorvetteGuy

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:19 am)

    Okay math wizards! I need your help.

    I’m working on a ‘Flash’ style calculator for our company’s website for the VOLT. I would like it to show the consumer actual savings: cost of gasoline vs cost of electricity.

    The gasoline part is easy, but what is the best way to calculate cost of electricity? I want customer to be able to enter cost of electricity per unit (kWh ?) and then miles driven on daily commute and total miles driven per year. Then it will show cost per day, and cost per full charge, and cost average per year of electricity.

    A little help with the proper formulas fir that and I’ll work on gitten’ ‘er done.


  87. 87
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:26 am)

    It seems to me that if the failure is due to a manufacturing defect then warranty would cover replacement.

    If you run over the charger and break it you buy your own replacement.


  88. 88
    GM Volt Fan

    +2

     

    GM Volt Fan
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:33 am)

    That’s a really good article about Ceramatec’s new sodium-sulphur battery. What is amazing it the PRICE of this battery, its service life and its energy density. They need to get their battery on the market SOON. :)

    http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html

    “Ceramatec says its new generation of battery would deliver a continuous flow of 5 kilowatts of electricity over four hours, with 3,650 daily discharge/recharge cycles over 10 years. With the batteries expected to sell in the neighborhood of $2,000, that translates to less than 3 cents per kilowatt hour over the battery’s life. Conventional power from the grid typically costs in the neighborhood of 8 cents per kilowatt hour.”

    These kinds of batteries will be popular for Volt owners that live in areas that don’t get a lot of sunshine for their solar panels too. People could get their electricity from their solar panels when available OR get their electricity from the grid at night when the power companies start offering those cheaper rates (5 cents per kilowatt or whatever). The battery would get its juice at night off the grid (or solar panels during the day) and have the Volt charged up by 7 am for the new day of driving. If people come home from work at 5 pm with only 5 miles of electricity left, they could simply get a 45 minute “quick charge” from the sodium-sulphur battery and go out on the town for dinner or whatever.

    This kind of battery would be very much NEEDED too in order to prevent people from overtaxing the grid by doing quick charges at the same time at say 5:30 pm after work. You can’t put a strain on the grid when you are getting your juice from your sodium-sulphur battery sitting in your garage. It’s like an “electron fuel tank”.


  89. 89
    chevonly

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:37 am)

    This is another example of GM engineering, a fact they do not seem to want to get accross to Joe sixpack, many GM vehicles have battery run down protection. I have tested this system by accident on three different occasions and it works great, but do they ever advertise this great feature NO NO NO, I cannot understand why not?????


  90. 90
    Jackson

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:37 am)

    Paging Captain Jack; Captain Jack Sparrow, your presence is needed on gm-volt.com…


  91. 91
    Joe

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:43 am)

    True with what you are saying if the current is very very low, but we are referring to the “Chevy Volt” here. One can get kill just as easily with 5 amps versus 20 amps at 240 volts. So it is the voltage that is dangerous. An example is with an arc welder. Current is very high and voltage is, at a safe level, below 30 volts and yet is safe..
    Any voltage above 50 volts with the current equal to the Volt battery current drawing capacity would start getting dangerous.


  92. 92
    Bearclaw

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:44 am)

    Can someone ask if there is going to be a lock on the power cord so no one walks off with it while i’m parked in a public garage.


  93. 93
    Jackson

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:50 am)

    A grid centered on the idea of distributed energy storage (either in your house, at the substation or where the electricity is made) would be a huge, revolutionary change. It would remove the need for spinning reserves, take away the limitations of alternative energy sources’ intermittency (and end-users’ intermittent usage patterns), and have the reserve to deal with sudden, unexpected demand; all with no increase in actual delivery capacity.


  94. 94
    Jackson

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:55 am)

    Did you notice that they listened to our suggestions for a coiled charging wire, and a visible charge indicator light in the Volt?


  95. 95
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:00 am)

    By zipcode perhaps? But the amount fluctuates and you’d have to differentiate between peak and off-peak and any discounts over a fixed amount.


  96. 96
    solo

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:04 am)

    The big story here is G.M. will be setting the standard for charging electric cars if they are the firstest with the mostest. The G.M. (SAE J1772), standard could well become the charging standard for electric vehicles, making G.M. the lead authority on electric and partially electric vehicles. Assuming the SAE J1772 is flexible enough to allow for super fast charging of cars at roadside charging stations, it could go a long way to making electric vehicles marketable.


  97. 97
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:05 am)

    Yes storing energy from your PV arrays during what would be peak grid charges while you are away from home during the day . Take some off the top for whatever needs power 24/7 in the home and save the rest (if any) to supplement off-peak grid energy used while you are drawing greater power in the evenings.

    Then PV arrays in parking lots at work places could reduce peak hour grid draws associated with daytime opportunistic charging of EVs

    Love it..


  98. 98
    frankyB

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:08 am)

    Good point but you can get away from that by saying it’s a recharging fee, making it a flat fee with no link to electric cost actually make this clear. And remember, this is the regulation in the USA but necessarely in other countries. I’m thinking global here ;-)

    Many model can be apply here, either the building pay for the electricity, the parking company or a 3rd company that rent “space” in the parking.


  99. 99
    KUD

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:11 am)

    Currently all I have is 110 in my Garage, BUT I will convert to 220 shortly after the first time I pulled my Volt into aforementioned garage.


  100. 100
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:12 am)

    From the following statement…
    “Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.”

    We can derive the following with what we know.
    We know there are approx 3 seperate packs of 96 cells at 3.5VDC that gives us the 336VDC pack voltage.
    We also know that LiMn chem doesn’t ever like to charge more than 1C, same goes for LiFePO4. The statment above tells me that 48A/3=16A. This tells me that each 3.5VDC cell is 16AH and each sub pack of 96 cells = (96 * 3.5) * 16 = 5376KWh which equates to a complet (5376KWh * 3) = ~16.1KWh pack.

    So now we know the following…
    Cell Voltage: 3.5VDC
    Cell AH Rating: ~16AH
    Sub pack KW: ~5376W


  101. 101
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:12 am)

    Be much simpler for me at access fee of $2/8hr plus the normal fee for occupying the spot. $5 is too much just for plugging in.


  102. 102
    mikeinatl.

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:13 am)

    Thanks Jackson,

    That is a great article for anyone who is a fan of electric cars and their potential. Very exciting game-changing technology with far reaching implications.

    For those who have not read it yet, please take the time to do so.

    http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html


  103. 103
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:13 am)

    There is one on the market that is 95% efficient, and is in the kw class. Thats not too bad for the convenience of automatic charging.


  104. 104
    KUD

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:13 am)

    Me to. I am waiting for 1Bog.org to come to DC for my Solar System. I just love the Idea to not only not use Gasoline, but to use my own E-Juice.


  105. 105
    DonC

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:16 am)

    Good point. GM has said the battery will be fully conditioned whenever it’s plugged in. Sometimes I forget about this since it’s unusual to have a liquid cooling system for batteries during the recharge cycle.


  106. 106
    N Riley

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:17 am)

    Really interesting link. A great read. I hope this gets kicked into high gear and people can get complete systems installed to create most of their own power needs. Thanks.


  107. 107
    Dave G

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:19 am)

    LRGVProVolt,

    The Volt’s battery pack will handle 220v w/48 amps, but the Volt’s battery charger will not. The battery charger is part of the car. The thing on the end of the cord is just a connection to the charger, not the charger itself.


  108. 108
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:21 am)

    Jackson,
    LOL, let’s hope he replies in a “gentlemanly manner”
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  109. 109
    N Riley

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:22 am)

    Yes, that was noticed. I wonder what else they have “picked-up” from us.


  110. 110
    Tagamet

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:24 am)

    Sorry things went THIS far off topic, but the laughs are all good. The 2 O’CLock chat should be interesting, but I’m seriously having a tough time coming up with an er, probing question.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  111. 111
    matt_b

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:25 am)

    There’s always crack heads after the copper.

    A nearby RV storage area was hit and they stripped the wiring and copper propane piping from a bunch of the RVs.


  112. 112
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:28 am)

    If you really want to store you PV power and use it completely for home use even at night, I would just buy a bunch of LiFePO4 cells from http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP400AHA. 8 of these will store over 10KWh of power. 16 of these and you can almost go “Off Grid”. Of course you will need the auto tranfer switch. I thought about doing this when I had a Solar guy come out and give an estimate. I don’t like how the utility companies wont pay you for over producing. Bastards.
    Did I also mention that you HAVE to stay connected to the utility company and still pay a “Connection fee”. WTF?


  113. 113
    N Riley

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:31 am)

    Yes, I agree that $5 is too high a cost for just plugging in. At that cost you are approaching the cost of gasoline to go 40 miles. If the average cost to a homeowner is $.03 per mile, to go 40 miles is $1.20. A charge station’s price should not too greatly exceed that to make it cost effective for vehicle owners to want to plug-in rather than burn fuel to get home. Of course, full EV owners will not have the choice of burning fuel on the way home and would be willing to pay higher fees to plug-in. The fast charging stations envisioned by most of us would serve EV owners much more than EREV owners. IMO.


  114. 114
    matt_b

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:31 am)

    Maybe someone with more knowledge will chime in…

    I’d suspect that the batteries are not being self equalized. I would think that they have active circuitry to maintain proper balance between the modules.


  115. 115
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:32 am)

    Hey Captain:
    For my math question (#24 above) does that mean that the VOLT uses 16 KWH per full charge? I checked my electric bill. The highest cost per KWH shown is $0.17 — so (16 * 0.17= $2.72 per full charge) is that correct?


  116. 116
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:33 am)

    Note that the thing we see in the picture at the top of this article is a fancy charge cable.. the true charger is internal to the Volt and can only handle about 3300 watts, 220v at 48amps is 10kw


  117. 117
    Flaninacupboard

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:33 am)

    I’ll miss the chat, so could some ask, what about Europe? will we have a 230v 13 amp (normal household) plug, or a stanalone charger thing?


  118. 118
    Herm

    +1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:35 am)

    GM addressed this by not even trying to charge above 80%.. this prolongs battery life…


  119. 119
    Herm

    +1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:37 am)

    A123 also can also routinely handle 4C charging, but GM did not select them either.

    Unlike what everyone thinks, I dont think 30 minute charges are really needed.. and apparently GM agrees with me.


  120. 120
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:39 am)

    what about if you drag the cord for 14 blocks behind your car?.. will the warranty cover it?


  121. 121
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:41 am)

    Nope. It will by design only use 8KWh max. The other half is for allowance of cell degradation in performance. The unused 8KWh is just a buffer and theoretically not use till called upon during time.


  122. 122
    N Riley

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:41 am)

    Captain Jack probably has a ton of experience he could relate to us on this subject of brothels being fast chargers. Maybe even worth the cost, too.

    This just proves that we will use any subject matter to get “off track” of the current topic. But, it is all good.


  123. 123
    matt_b

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:43 am)

    Does anyone know if they will have a waterproof unit?

    I don’t have a garage, but I’d really like to be able to charge at 240V.


  124. 124
    Herm

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:48 am)

    its a mass production item, made in the millions.. used in most of the BEV sold in the US and maybe the world (speaking fictionally here).. and all identical. Both the receiving and transmitting antennas must be tuned identically or it wont work.. it must be made to an universal standard.. thus mass production.

    I’m guessing $19.99 and its made in Vietnam, and most of the cost is in the raw materials used… perhaps the only universal component used in a car.


  125. 125
    old man

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:49 am)

    Tag

    at Brothels?

    At my age they would have to be really fas————NEVER MIND


  126. 126
    stas peterson

    +3

     

    stas peterson
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:52 am)

    GM is conforming to the standard SAE J1772. Its up to Better Place to do the same; not for GM to adapt to a a non-conformant Better Place idea. Especially since Better Place doesn’t exist yet, and so a non-comformant plug is not a de facto standard, already widely, in place.

    As far as a 48 amp 220 charger, many national wiring codes, do NOT ALLOW a plug conection for anything exceeding 16-20 amps @220 v. They require a fixed connection instead. So all these codes would need to be changed, if possible at all, and that might take years.


  127. 127
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:53 am)

    it depends what kind of wall socket you plug it in.. either a regular 110vac or a 220vac socket.. the Volt will automatically switch once you do so.


  128. 128
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:54 am)

    Gordon, this thing is just a charger cord.. the real charger is built internally in the Volt.


  129. 129
    Tagamet

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:58 am)

    old man
    With that sense of humor, you’ll live to be a VERY old man.
    See you at the chat.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  130. 130
    DonC

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:59 am)

    Electricity is sold per kWh. Few people will know what their actual rate and this can be tricky. I think that the average rate across the US is $.10 so you could use this as the default, but it does vary and in some places there are special low rates for charging EVs.

    You might want to give them a check box that would let them charge at work or during the day. Most likely a lot of people will have that opportunity.

    Also note that the number of kWh per mile should be 25 or 4 miles per kWh. That’s different than the “up to 40 miles” range. The range is battery to wheels while the efficiency is plug to wheels, the latter accounting for charging losses.

    From a marketing standpoint rather than looking at a cost comparison I’d go the Dave K route and just look at the amount of gas used. That is a little tricky because you have to let them define a “typical day” and you’d have to guess at the MPG in charge sustaining mode. But if you let them define their driving pattern you could give them a very good idea of how much gas they’d be using.

    Also from a marketing standpoint I’d concentrate on the luxury drive of the car. Absent unusual circumstances this technology will not pay for itself in Gen I even with the government rebate, and going down the cost comparison route is a loser. You don’t sell Corvettes like this and there isn’t any reason to sell Volts like this either. There are plenty of people — mostly guys — who will buy Volts because of the tech, and they are not going to be seriously worried about the cost.


  131. 131
    stas peterson

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:59 am)

    Its obvious that you don’t know how a standard is developed. Having done so, it goes as follows. Representatives from interested parties, join together to create a draft proposed standard. That is all voted on by committee members, usually representing their own firm’s viewpoint, or preferences. So I am sure that all the automakers were present and voting on the SAE J1772 plug, and so it isn’t a GM standard at all. It might even be a standard that GM opposed.


  132. 132
    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:00 pm)

    Neal,

    Not to be a fuddy-duddy about this, but maybe they thought of it on their own. Having said that, we do have a lot of good ideas around here (some real clinkers, too) ;-)


  133. 133
    David

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:01 pm)

    MRR, you or anyone else can feel free to ask the question (and take credit for doing so!) I won’t be available at the time of the web presentation.


  134. 134
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:05 pm)

    lol…
    Brothels, there’s a few close to Reno NV, been to them for a bachelor parties. Technically you can “Over Charge” your Volt there. Old Bridg, Wild Horse and Bunny to name a few. Wild horse had the best “Ambiance”, if ya kno what I mean….

    You can go 0-60 in a drop of a G-String!!

    And there are no TaTa Nano’s there either!


  135. 135
    DonC

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:06 pm)

    Nice! Very nice. Post of the day.

    I guess the remaining big “unknown” is that while we know the cells are connected in some form of serial and parallel we don’t know that configuration.


  136. 136
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:09 pm)

    Hmmm, interesting.

    I haven’t seen that one, have you got a link?


  137. 137
    stas peterson

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:09 pm)

    The battery may be able to handle it but might not like it. Or rather, the high charging current may deleteriously affect the battery lifetime.

    That lifetime is being extended by extraordinary and heroic measures even now, to meet California rules. Otherwise you end up with a Nissan Leaf, whistling by the graveyard with a proposition that you have to replace a very expensive, multi thousand dollar battery in five years, in effect making the Leaf, a “dispose-a-car”.


  138. 138
    MuddyRoverRob

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:12 pm)

    Aw heck.. I say we take credit!

    ;-)


  139. 139
    MuddyRoverRob

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:14 pm)

    The car isn’t supposed to move with the plug in place so in that case you are at least in for repairs to the no-drive safety bits!


  140. 140
    texas

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:16 pm)

    “Especially since Better Place doesn’t exist yet, and so a non-conformant plug is not a de facto standard, already widely, in place.”

    You mean like Volts and Volt chargers? I think we can all agree that there is almost no charging infrastructure in the U.S. (at least any that is smart-grid compatible). Better Place does, however, already have over 6000 charge points installed in Israel. Yes, I know the U.S. is not Israel but they seem to be much further along (No Volt chargers installed yet). My concern is that the SAE J1772 standard is not forward thinking enough. That’s why there is a few billion dollars about to be granted for U.S. smart-grid research and development.

    The more standardization the better, unless the standard is substandard. ;)


  141. 141
    Cranky Geek

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:20 pm)

    Six HOURS ! That long time cuz.

    EEStor won’t take near this long.


  142. 142
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:21 pm)

    Yup, just a couple hours work to add it.


  143. 143
    The Eye

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:23 pm)

    Doesn’t look very durable to me and my eyesight is very good, so good that my nickname is Eagle Eye.


  144. 144
    texas

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:24 pm)

    Are you saying you would not want quick-charge capability if the price was the same? I would. Having reasonably priced EVs that could be quick-charged in around 5 minutes would allow the world to get off of oil for personal transportation. Not too shabby, eh?

    We are still waiting for that great battery. Yes, they are getting better but current technology has more cost, less life, less energy density, less all-weather reliability, longer re-fill time, etc. When customers compare to the proven ICE, it’s going to be a tough sell.


  145. 145
    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:24 pm)

    I believe that’ll be part of the menu functions on the center dashboard display. It’s been mentioned before that a charging schedule can be set there, so it seems only natural to have something like “charging rate” or “charging amperage” on there, too.


  146. 146
    Jackson

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:24 pm)

    That doesn’t really address the 6 vs 8 hours depending on the amperage available at the 110V plug, which is a separate issue from the 110V – 220V automatic switchover (first I’ve heard about this difference at 110V).


  147. 147
    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:25 pm)

    Indeed, fascinating technology and a good article. Thanks for posting, man!


  148. 148
    Herm

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:27 pm)

    PBP may offer a plan that you can buy prepaid minutes to charge your Volt using their chargers and parking spaces.. they have stated that any electric car will be able to use their chargers.. but not how you would pay for it.


  149. 149
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:28 pm)

    You are completely right, lithium cells are not self equalizing.. unlike nimh or lead acid.


  150. 150
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:30 pm)

    From the article…
    “The company calculates that the battery will cram 20 to 40 kilowatt hours of energy into a package about the size of a refrigerator, and operate below 90 degrees C.”

    Size of a refrigerator? Maaaaan, if you bought 16 of these http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP400AHA you can have the size of 8 24 packs of MGD that has the capacity of 23.04KWh for $7K


  151. 151
    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:30 pm)

    The car end will mate in a rain-safe way. For the wall end, you might need something like this:
    http://www.drillspot.com/products/300548/Intermatic_WP1220C_2G_Flexguard_Cover

    Note: this example is “110v only,” since the 220v version is installed, not plugged in. Without a place to install it (e.g. garage), you might be out of luck on the 220v version.


  152. 152
    Johnny Rotten

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:31 pm)

    NOT WATERPROOF !

    This will be extremely dangerous if used outside in the elements. (calling Seattle…)


  153. 153
    Jackson

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:33 pm)

    “I don’t like how the utility companies wont pay you for over producing.”

    This varies by location and company. I believe State law can require that the utility company buy back excess power from home alternate energy systems, though seldom at the price you would pay.

    “I would just buy a bunch of LiFePO4 cells”

    That is the kind of thing you would have to do at this moment. If the batteries in the linked article are developed, they’ll be a lot cheaper in the first place; and won’t compete for Lithium supplies with EVs in the second place (however much Lithium there is, it’s cost is certain to fluctuate as vehicle volumes increase).


  154. 154
    JEC

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:34 pm)

    Very true. You can actually be killed by only a few milli-amps! So, you need sufficient voltage to create the current, and since the impedance of a human is fairly high (varies wildly, depending on things like perspiration, environment, path to travel,….). Thats why you can touch a 12V car battery and not even feel it, even though a car battery has 100′s of cranking amps available.

    So, touching a 240V with 10 amps capacity or 1000 amps will not make any significant difference in the outcome. Your impedance will limit the current to significantly less then either capacity.

    Now, you would have more danger in being injured by arcing, caused by a short to another object (Like the metal on you car, if car has a ground path). Then the short-circuit capacity determines just how much of an arc you generate. Typically high amperage circuits have higher short-circuit capacity, but not always.


  155. 155
    stas peterson

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:34 pm)

    Please disabuse yourself of the idea from the green nincompoops that Solar is pollution free. It generates enormous amounts of Thermal Pollution due to its abysmal inefficiency.

    Even worse are climactic effects from the Albedo Reduction from the cumulative effect of the all the solar cells used worldwide. It makes CO2 Global Warming look like a kid’s pea shooter in comparison. You can demonstrate easily that the Global Warming effects are 10,000 times as bad as CO2, without any of the benign effects of CO2 free fertilization for the Plant Kingdom, that is greening the Planet.


  156. 156
    Betty Boop

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:36 pm)

    I bet a full twenty minutes of intense engineering went into these devices.

    I believe i see a label, yes indeed, i do.

    Fisher Price :-)


  157. 157
    Shock Me

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:41 pm)

    Looks like our Troll’s mom let him him sleep in today. Welcome back ye of the multiple personalities none of which are clever! :)


  158. 158
    Hammer Time

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:46 pm)

    Hammer not liking the color theme on those cords.

    Hammer also need longer cord so you can’t touch this.


  159. 159
    LazP

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:55 pm)

    With all the different (many probably great) suggestions here, if GM were to listen to you guys, the Volt would never arrive. Gradually an appropriate infrastructure will develop. Currently the most likely standard infrastructure is what already widely exists will be most useful for GM and that’s home owners with garages. For their use, over night recharge at 120V is the easiest and most convenient. I predict these people will be the most likely customers initially.
    All you knowledgeable EE-s I like your contributions to these issues and I am learning a lot for your comments. Faster recharge down the line will make the 230 mpg projection obsolete; That number will be much higher.


  160. 160
    Shock Me

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (12:56 pm)

    Hammer you have too much time on your hands and should stop touching it so much.


  161. 161
    Noob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:00 pm)

    Can that cord reach the basement ?

    Gotta go, I hear Mom coming down the stairs !


  162. 162
    Loboc

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:01 pm)

    Just make it turn off if unplugged. Put in another buck after re-plugging.


  163. 163
    kdawg

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:14 pm)

    My name is Kdawg Slowski. So i would like my battery to take as long as possible to recharge.


  164. 164
    Gery Kissel's blog

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:15 pm)

    Gery Kissel: Good afternoon everyone. Gery Kissel here…

    2:01 [Comment From Tagamet ]
    Will the outlet need to be totally IN a garage, or simply “out of the weather”. I have an enclosed 220 outlet that’s totally enclosed against the weather (for a hot tub), but slightly outside our garage.

    2:01 Gery Kissel: All of our EVSE equipment is made to withstand all weather conditions.

    2:02 [Comment From ysfbuy ]
    Top GM battery scientist revealed that battery won’t last long, why is that?

    2:03 Gery Kissel: Not sure who you are referring to. Volt battery life is 10 years or 150,000 miles as a vehicle with an afterlife for other uses.

    2:05 [Comment From Jackson ]
    Under what circumstances would GM allow access to the Volt’s DC power system for an external charger able to supply (for example) 240V @ 48 amps? A 45 minute recharge could jump-start (sorry) public charging initiatives.

    2:06 Gery Kissel: The current Volt does not accomodate offboard DC charging.

    2:06 [Comment From Mark Bartosik ]
    Does the unit that plugs into the receptacle communicate with the charger in the Volt (e.g. to indicate max current draw). And if so, is this using an industry standard protocol?

    2:07 Gery Kissel: Yes, the EVSE does communicate with the Volt and will indicate max curent draw among information. It is J1772 compliant.

    2:07 [Comment From MuddyRoverRob ]
    I’m assuming the 220v charger will be an additional cost over the price of the car.

    2:08 Gery Kissel: We haven’t priced either the 120 portable or 240 wall charger yet. One will come with the vehicle. Which one we have not decided yet. Could be user choice.

    2:09 [Comment From RDP ]
    How long will the portable charging cord be?

    2:09 Gery Kissel: 20 feet.

    2:10 [Comment From old man ]
    Can a simple 220 volt plug in type cord be used rather than the one that needs to be hard wired?

    2:11 Gery Kissel: The national electrical code says that fix mounted 240V EVSEs must be hard-wired.

    2:12 [Comment From seaquake2 ]
    Will the charge plug (end that goes into the volt) have some form of lock on it? So if I live in a development with no garage and have to charge it in my driveway some kid or someone can’t come up at night and unplug it out of spite?

    2:12 Gery Kissel: We’re looking at that but nothing right now.

    2:13 [Comment From Rick Hearn ]
    Gery, in the past GM has stated the Volt charge rates would be 1.2 kW at 120V and 3.3 kW at 240 V. The wattages in your blog post are a little higher. Are the old wattages obsolete?

    2:14 Gery Kissel: The earlier numbers are what the vehicle is set to do. The recent numbers are what the EVSEs are capable of, which are slightly higher than the vehicle.


  165. 165
    Loboc

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:15 pm)

    And, it could be portable to give a ‘tank full’ to a dead EV.


  166. 166
    matt_b

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:21 pm)

    Someone beat me to it in the chat.

    The 240V unit is weatherproof. Whoo Hoo!


  167. 167
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:25 pm)

    I have believed for some time now that charging at higher than 240 v 16 amps would not be supported by GM simply because in the form most jurisdictions adopt the NEC it would not be legal to install residential circuits that charge at a higher rate.

    I have never seen claims that a battery of 16 kWh would be harmed by a charge of as little as 240 v 48 amps.


  168. 168
    steel

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:36 pm)

    You know, this whole “rolling backout” myth is just that. A myth.

    By and large, the power grids of most states are designed with more than 10% margin. Even on hotest or coldest days. It would take a simply awesome number of plug-ins, all pluging in at one time to cause massive enough power draws to lead to rolling blackouts.

    Consider 240 v * 48 amps. Thats only 11.5 kW.

    State of California Electric System Today would have a -minimum- availble extra generator of ~2000 MW or 2,000,000 kW…. enough to serve 175,000 Volts! (Though in reality, ~100,000 Volts might be enough to cause the rolling backouts)
    http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

    And California in Summer in the Afternoon is one of the lowest margin states….


  169. 169
    Japanese hater

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:45 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  170. 170
    steel

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:46 pm)

    This is actually up in the air. GM has stated repeatly that the goal is 40 miles on 8 kWh. However, I wouldn’t blame them if they go to 9kWh to ensure 40 miles AER. But thats from the Battery. Most chargers are ~85-95% efficient at taking Wall Power to Battery Power. (the 220V one will likely be slightly more efficient than the 110V)

    A good conservate estimate would be 10-11 kWh on your bill for a full charge.


  171. 171
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:50 pm)

    Automatic selection, I’ll bet the farm on it. Would GM want the liability of fires created by overheating from folks plugging their 110V cords into 240V outlets with a convenient adapter left by a previous tenant?


  172. 172
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:56 pm)

    What was the problem with lithium-titanium oxide, was it lower energy density or shorter life span any one remember?


  173. 173
    Loboc

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:57 pm)

    Lol. EEStor again. I’m from Missouri. Ya gotta show me.


  174. 174
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (1:58 pm)

    From Lyle, “The Volt also has a small LED bulb on the top of the dash that flashes when the car is charging so you can tell from a distance.”


  175. 175
    steel

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:00 pm)

    I’d just like to say again.

    The Volt is expensive, but if you get the government rebate,

    The price of a Volt will likely be between the Cost of a Loaded Civic/Corolla and a Loaded Camry/Accord V-6. Very similar to a loaded Camry/Accord I4.

    Projected Fuel Cost for 150,000 Volt Mile –> ~6,000 dollars
    Projected Fuel Cost for 150,000 Camry V6 Miles –> ~20,000 dollars
    Projected Fuel Cost for 150,000 Camry I4 Miles –> ~17,000 dollars
    Projected Fuel Cost for 150,000 Civic I4 Miles –> ~15,000 dollars

    IE, I think it would be very worthwhile to show that the cost of the Volt, in the long term, is not that of a “Luxury” Car, but within that of a “typical family sedan”.


  176. 176
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    The chat is done.
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    NPNS


  177. 177
    Larry

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    The Volt battery pack is designed to deliver 400A and probably take that much from regenerative braking. The problem is probably that the Volt internal charging circuit cannot handle that much current, regardless of how big the external charger is.


  178. 178
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    Very good info from the live chat. Was hoping we would get to the question several posters had on the role of the ICE in the charging system.


  179. 179
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    This chat was really valuable.
    I learned a lot.
    Especially “reading between the lines”, about what specifically is and is not going to likely happen regarding charging.
    Thank you Mr. Kissel.


  180. 180
    N Riley

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:08 pm)

    Many very interesting questions were asked of Gery Kissel and I think he did a good job of answering them. I would like to be able to see all the questions that were asked along with the ones that were answered. Is it possible to do so? Maybe Lyle could publish those as a post and we could all read them and generate quite a bit of discussion. It would prove to be very interesting, I bet.

    How about it, Lyle. The questions and answers are probably stored somewhere on the Cover It Live servers or on yours.


  181. 181
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:10 pm)

    Sounds like the plugin/charging system will be very robust.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  182. 182
    Jackson

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:10 pm)

    That must’ve been an edit. It didn’t say “LED” when I first read it. I knew that must be what he meant.


  183. 183
    steel

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:11 pm)

    I believe when these were first announced that it was a “button”, but I am sure its software controlled somehow.


  184. 184
    Bill Marsh

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:12 pm)

    “the system is designed so the car cannot drive when it is plugged in”

    Good for them. I was wondering how soon it would be before my wife would try to drive off with the plug in. Now I won’t have to worry about that.


  185. 185
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:13 pm)

    Well other than slipping and falling, probably not.


  186. 186
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:14 pm)

    I had to “tone-down” my question twice. But I understand why I needed to do so. The duplex outlet replacement question was originally related to aspects of charging that are not at all the responsibility of GM or the SAE standard. (It was about weak wiring (eg., aluminum) that might [gradually] run the load terminal going into an old/loose duplex plug socket too warm, but other comments addressed my same question very nicely, yet indirectly. But I am really glad to have all those facts now. Thanks again, Mr. Kissel.

    (Got to get back out to work. Later all!!)


  187. 187
    N Riley

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:15 pm)

    No, you only have to worry about her NOT plugging-in.


  188. 188
    jeffhre

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:20 pm)

    Sure it was, right, right, uh huh!!!


  189. 189
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:21 pm)

    Right you are, but they are saying it’ll be near $2k not $7k…

    That’s a game changing price difference.


  190. 190
    Jackson

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:21 pm)

    You haven’t taken into account the time it will take to actually get a straight answer out of EEStor. Charge times could then approach infinity.


  191. 191
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:22 pm)

    Well then she’d just run out of gas quicker I guess.

    If she forgets both the vehicle remains safely in the garage or driveway.


  192. 192
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:23 pm)

    Matt,
    He said that it’s good for all weather conditions. You don’t even need a garage.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  193. 193
    Tagamet

     

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:26 pm)

    Bearclaw
    He said not so far, but they are thinking about it.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  194. 194
    Tagamet

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    Tagamet
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:29 pm)

    I tried several times for a “guess” as to when V2G might arrive, but no answers to those questions. (Shrug). On the whole there were some really good questions asked/answered. I’d have liked to see one from Statik, but none of them were more than 2 paragraphs (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  195. 195
    MuddyRoverRob

    +1

     

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:30 pm)

    The chat was actually somewhat dull once the burning questions were answered…

    q) Am I going to get an instant afro if it rains?
    a) nope

    q) How many bux?
    a) not sure yet.

    Good engineering doesn’t leave a lot to talk about!
    Looks like good work from here Gery!


  196. 196
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:33 pm)

    Update post live-chat

    Guess not!


  197. 197
    Jackson

     

    Jackson
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:35 pm)

    From the chat it seems clear that GM isn’t saying “never” to the idea of an external charger to support higher charging rates (“not on this version of the Volt,” “No standard has been established”), but they’re not going to be the ones who push things beyond adoption of the SAE J1772 standard.

    I expect public charging will appear in extremely limited quantities / locations, and be limited to 220V@16A, at most.

    This gets us into another “chicken and egg” problem: No fast charging stations until there are enough electric cars / electric cars won’t support fast charging until there are enough stations.

    This is the kind of standoff which has retarded vehicle electrification for at least 30 years: “No one wants to build an electric car until there are proper batteries / no one wants to develop proper batteries until there are electric cars.”

    In order to keep history from repeating itself, I’d suggest that somebody blink. In this case, only allowing for the possibility might be sufficient. Maybe just include a dealer-removable panel for installing whatever direct-to-DC interface is eventually standardized.


  198. 198
    Jason Strongarm

    +2

     

    Jason Strongarm
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:36 pm)

    Drop the racist hate. There is no room for that kind of thinking on this site. You may need to see a counselor ASAP.


  199. 199
    MuddyRoverRob

    +1

     

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:39 pm)

    Fear not Stas… I’ll plant a couple tree’s and water them with a pump run by the panels.


  200. 200
    kdawg

     

    kdawg
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:40 pm)

    I thought this was interesting from Endgadget (even if a bit dated)
    ————

    The SAE J1772 Task Force-developed charging system, based on an initial design by supplier Yazaki, is now at Underwriters Labs for certification. That’s scheduled to be done by the end of May and, if all things go according to plan, it can be adopted for use in the next few months. Speaking to Autoblog Green, General Motors’ Gery Kissel listed his company, Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Tesla among those participating or supporting the standard. He also said the we-swear-it’s-coming-this-year Chevy Volt should be equipped with the new plug, and Tesla’s reportedly pledged to adopt it for current plans and retrofit its older models. Things are starting to look up for the EV industry.


  201. 201
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:41 pm)

    LOL, that’s why the charger is on board and will over ride / not allow charging when it senses dangerous divergence from safe practices, ie stupid stuff!!!


  202. 202
    Sonny Lame

    -1

     

    Sonny Lame
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:42 pm)

    Warning about quick charge boyfriends.

    Run for the hills if she says her previous boyfriend was named BOB !

    Believe me you cannot compete with the Battery Operated Boyfriend.


  203. 203
    kdawg

     

    kdawg
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:42 pm)

    I probably submitted 8-10 questions.. a few got answered.
    One that did not was the one about leaving my car plugged for long periods of time. If its -20 in Michigan, and i’m going on a 2 week vacation to Hawaii, should i leave my car plugged in? Or will is suck tons of juice trying to keep the battery warm for 2 weeks? Would it be better to just plug it in when I returned home? Would any damage be done to my battery due to the cold weather? What role would the ICE engine play if it wasn’t plugged in?


  204. 204
    kdawg

     

    kdawg
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:44 pm)

    I also asked about linear charging. if i get 100% in 3 hours, does that mean I’ll get 33% in 1 hour, or would it be more like 50%?

    Edit: I guess this would apply more to charging at 120V, since at 240V the charger is limited to 3.3KW


  205. 205
    Jackson

     

    Jackson
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:44 pm)

    Per the chat, there’s a button on the plug one can use to select the lower amperage rate when not on a dedicated 110V circuit (as at another house you’re visiting). This probably just sets a flag for the on board charger to make the selection.


  206. 206
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:46 pm)

    I just don’t see using the really expensive Volt battery to run my house.

    It seems to be a false economy to me.

    Now if these low temp sodium-sulfur batteries see the light of day I’m all in.


  207. 207
    max_headroom

    +1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:47 pm)

    I got my answer from the webchat:

    Gery Kissel: The 8-amp charge rate is available in case you are plugged into a non-dedicated circuit. It is selected by push button on the cord set.


  208. 208
    kdawg

     

    kdawg
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:47 pm)

    deleted


  209. 209
    kdawg

     

    kdawg
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:48 pm)

    I would like the option to buy the car w/out the GM charger, and possibly shop around for a 3rd party SAE J1772 compliant one.


  210. 210
    Bearclaw

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:49 pm)

    Thanks Tag


  211. 211
    Mike-o-Matic

     

    Mike-o-Matic
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:50 pm)

    Amendment: According to Gery Kissel in the webchat (see replay above), the 8amp charge rate is selectable by button press on the charging adapter.

    IMHO, this doesn’t inherently mean the Volt itself can’t be used to select the rate also, but it’s nice to know that at least it’ll be “so easy a caveman can do it” by having a button right on the charge cord. Otherwise I would foresee people regularly popping their breakers on nondedicated circuits, and getting frustrated because of it (although, c’mon people, just wire up a new breaker/outlet… it’s a 40k car… support it properly, eh?).


  212. 212
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:55 pm)

    Maybe that will be one of those exciting OnStar functions to stay tuned for.

    Coming SOON! Holiday MODE


  213. 213
    Tagamet

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:55 pm)

    Yes, the chat was a bit dry, but as you said, good engineering doesn’t leave much thrillin left to be done.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  214. 214
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:56 pm)

    I’m thinking that it’s a smart charger so plug it in and go get a tan.

    There is a good chance it’ll run the genset to keep the battery pack topped up and warm if it isn’t.


  215. 215
    kdawg

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:57 pm)

    Or just tax gas so that it becomes much cheaper to go electric.


  216. 216
    Tagamet

     

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:57 pm)

    Muddy,
    V2G isn’t all about running the house. It’s still a project in development, but could be profitable for people who end up with extra renewable energy.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  217. 217
    Tagamet

     

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:58 pm)

    Never a problem.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  218. 218
    matt_b

     

    matt_b
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (2:59 pm)

    Where did you get that idea?

    In the article, it states that the 120V system is totally waterproof.

    I asked about the 240V system, and Gery answered that the 240V charger is also.


  219. 219
    Jackson

     

    Jackson
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:02 pm)

    WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JESSE?!!!


  220. 220
    Jackson

     

    Jackson
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:05 pm)

    Oops, I think I’ve been calling V2G “P2P” by mistake for about a weeks’ worth of posts. Darn.


  221. 221
    Glorious Bastard

    -2

     

    Glorious Bastard
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:08 pm)

    Those plugs look large and may take a Kung Fu grip to wrestle them into the correct orientation. But I think I can handle them. The petite old lady with a touch of arthritis might struggle.


  222. 222
    CarlosG

    -1

     

    CarlosG
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:09 pm)

    Shop till you drop. I think Nissan will be having a sale in early 2010.


  223. 223
    Jackson

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:10 pm)

    You’ll be hard-pressed to find such for several years, I predict. The first cars to use them will have cords made by their respective manufacturers; but I wouldn’t expect an aftermarket source until there are at least half a million compliant cars on the road.

    When you can find a generic SAE J1772 cord at Wal-Mart, we’ll have passed an extremely important cultural milestone.

    ;-)


  224. 224
    Jackson

     

    Jackson
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:15 pm)

    If you leave a Volt untended and unplugged in a closed garage, will the ICE being run (for maintenance or whatever) build up CO2 to poisonous levels?


  225. 225
    Jackson

     

    Jackson
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:19 pm)

    I think he meant 80% of the available range, not the whole battery pack.

    I also recall hearing something of the kind; apparently there is some non-linearity even using half pack’s native capacity.


  226. 226
    Eletruk

     

    Eletruk
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:20 pm)

    J1172 allows for 15KW charging as specified, or 220VAC @ 70A, so just using the standard J1772 would allow for quicker charging without any modifications to the Volt. Just that somebody needs to build a J1172 PCS (Power Control Station) that can provide 70A, and I assume from this article that GM isn’t planning on providing that. Time for those old Avcon PCS manufacturers to get back into the the business (if any are left).


  227. 227
    Joe

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:21 pm)

    Most places, one would go with the Volt, would not have enough capacity to charge enough cars simultaneously. The infrastructure for big transformers is not there, although the power companies can generate enough power,that does not solve the problem. The best way to handle this dilemma is by having more outlets with a lower voltage thus allowing more cars to be charged simultaneously. Most Volt drivers will not need a quick charge anyhow because most will not expend enough to warrant it.


  228. 228
    Jackson

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:24 pm)

    The government solution: drop a giant boulder on both sides of a standoff, and try to assemble something less efficient than either from the resultant floor sweepings.

    A better gov’t intervention scheme would be helping to establish a standard for interfacing EVs with external chargers; preferably by just saying “do it.”


  229. 229
    CaptJackSparrow

     

    CaptJackSparrow
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:26 pm)

    That’s true, you pay more for less in size but equal in power density.

    Hmmmm….
    Put some wheels on that refrigerator and a PWM and DC Warp 9 Motor and you’ve got a greater than 100 MPC fridge…..
    :-)


  230. 230
    CaptJackSparrow

     

    CaptJackSparrow
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:29 pm)

    I’ll do better, I’ll get a license to gro marryJowanna and plant an acre for “Medicinal” purposes and grow all year long. That’ll clear some carbon from the air.


  231. 231
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:33 pm)

    Oh I absolutely agree with the concept, just not with using the Volts battery.

    Use a cheaper storage method like sodium-sulfur (yes this has me excited!) and I’m completely onside.


  232. 232
    MetrologyFirst

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:35 pm)

    I agree.

    Being employed at a “federal standards organization” , our primary job at standards meetings is to make sure they stay on course and hopefully on time, and to make sure that no one company can dominate the technical specs and gain an unfair advantage over another company not at the meetings.

    It is clear that companies know more about what is needed in the marketplace. We just make sure the standards are not written too narrow as to include, for example, “proprietary materials or processes”.

    It has happened before.


  233. 233
    Herm

    +1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (3:52 pm)

    Hell will freeze over in the coming Ice Age (the one we have been delaying with all the CO2) before GM lets you hook up V2G, its their pocket where the warranty is coming from.


  234. 234
    Vegasguy

    -1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:05 pm)

    There is no need for an electric car anymore!
    The government is making fuel from sea water.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17632-how-to-turn-seawater-into-jet-fuel.html


  235. 235
    Wankel Jones

    -8

     

    Wankel Jones
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:07 pm)

    You want to be sure you are buying quality cables. Therefore suggest you look into a good pair from Toyota, Honda, Ford or Nissan. All should be readily available well before the Volt hits the road in late Novemba’10.


  236. 236
    sparks

    -2

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:07 pm)

    This is great news! I was hoping the Volt could be charged, as I’m running low on liquid cash these days. I’ll charge mine to Mastercard!


  237. 237
    Danny O. Danny

    -1

     

    Danny O. Danny
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:09 pm)

    Charging maxed out at 3.3kw , WTF.
    When did Rapid Charging leave the table. This not good. I tell you not good from down under.


  238. 238
    Carcus1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:22 pm)

    Juts tell the wife you’ll take care of the plug in duties.


  239. 239
    Bruce

    -3

     

    Bruce
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:29 pm)

    Like you can get a straight answer out of GM? What’s the MPG in gen mode?


  240. 240
    Carcus1

     

    Carcus1
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:35 pm)

    Wow.

    It started sounding too good and my eyes glazed over. I’ll have to read that one again after a nap and a fresh cup of coffee.


  241. 241
    Carcus1

     

    Carcus1
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:36 pm)

    Price still holding around $340/kwh . . . . nice.

    / with all this mandatory j1772 stuff being thrown around, home built may be the best way to go if you want to stay out from under “the man”.


  242. 242
    Carcus1

    -1

     

    Carcus1
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:40 pm)

    Same old GM.


  243. 243
    Jack Hole

    -6

     

    Jack Hole
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:43 pm)

    Cords are for fools. Drop the Cord.

    This is reVolting, Cordless charging is here already.

    I charge my Pre without a Cord.

    Protest this now all you Volt Tetherheads.

    It’s time to officially launch the Lose The Leash campaign.


  244. 244
    Keith

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:43 pm)

    I don’t really care if it is not efficient , plugging in all the time sucks . I just want to come home and go into the house and relax and have my supper .
    I want inductive charging run by a timer that does it all automatically . I just want to use my car , not become a slave to plugging the darned thing in every time I come home , to hell with that idea .


  245. 245
    DonC

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:48 pm)

    You can get a Camry SE V6 OTD for $26K with zero % financing. Even with the rebate the Volt OTD would be $35.5K. So you have to make back roughly $10K.

    Not so easy to ever make this back. If all your electricity were free and you never used any gas in the Volt it would take you over six years to make up the difference, and while you did this you’d also have to be making back the cost of money, which, depending on your rate could well double that difference. Your figures more or less show this. (150K miles probably takes 13-15 years since cars as they age and have more miles on them are driven fewer miles per year). Most people want a paybacks in 6 months, maybe 18 months. Fifteen or even ten years is too long a time horizon.

    Plus the Camry is a much larger car than the Volt. If you used the Corolla for sure you will never be able to make the difference back.

    Volts won’t be price competitive until Gen II with the rebates still in place or in phase out mode. That would be the sweet spot from a price perspective.


  246. 246
    Carcus1

     

    Carcus1
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:51 pm)

    BTW, my house is rigged for a LOT more than 3.3kw. You should SEE those breaker boxes!

    OOOOHHHHH oh oh oh oh o ho h h oh oh!


  247. 247
    GM Volt Fan

    +1

     

    GM Volt Fan
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (4:52 pm)

    One thing I hope GM or some third party company does is make the charging cord fairly long and RETRACTABLE like you see on vacuum cleaners.

    GM should work with 3rd party companies that make high quality charging accessories. Maybe by 2012 or so, there will be a bunch of things you could buy to make plugging in your Volt at night just a little easier. Face it, a lot of people might be forgetful about plugging it in (like with their cell phones) or just plain too lazy … if it means untangling an aggravating extension cord or whatever.

    Maybe by 2013, there will be WIRELESS charging systems available. That’s the ultimate in convenience. Just pull into the garage and a light comes on the dash of your Volt saying “set to charge” or “charging now” or whatever.

    Til then, I hope there will be high quality, durable, “user friendly” charging cords that you can retract. Maybe by 2011, you’ll be able to quick charge your lithium ion battery weed eater with the same retractable cord system. Maybe your electric lawn mower too. I see a bright future for charging systems in the next 10 years that’s for sure.


  248. 248
    DonC

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:10 pm)

    However, I wouldn’t blame them if they go to 9kWh to ensure 40 miles AER. But thats from the Battery. Most chargers are ~85-95% efficient at taking Wall Power to Battery Power. (the 220V one will likely be slightly more efficient than the 110V)

    The “up to 40 mile” range, or 8 kWh for 40 miles, is as you’re suggesting battery to wheels not plug to wheels. For plug to wheels, we know that the City cycle will use 25 kWh / 100 miles. Given that the ranges for the City and Highway cycles are the same and that the chargers are the same, you’d expect the Highway cycle to also use 25 kWh / 100 miles.

    So 4 miles per kWh. The Utility Factor (UF) for a 40 mile EV range is roughly 62%.

    Slide 25, http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf


  249. 249
    steel

    +1

     

    steel
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:16 pm)

    No offense, but just because its a “standard”, doesn’t mean it will be become standard in the marketplace.

    GM has commited (apparently) to adopting the SAE J1772 plug as thier standard plug. Which may lead it to be the standard plug in the market car makers must use. However, SAE doesn’t determine this…. the marketplace, often set by the first mover, does….

    Which is a fancy way of saying, you misinterperted the intent of his post and the meaning of “standard”.


  250. 250
    ccombs

     

    ccombs
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:17 pm)

    RB: “Some days will be sunny, but surely not all.”

    Except if you live in sunny Los Angeles.

    Although I might be able to handle a bit of rain if it meant living in a non-bankrupt state…


  251. 251
    ccombs

     

    ccombs
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:29 pm)

    Agreed. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here with Gen I. We have a bit of time in the next few years to figure all this out (especially by seeing what works and what doesn’t in practice).

    PS. I saw “Tagamet” in the pharmacy yesterday…clever name.


  252. 252
    GM Volt Fan

     

    GM Volt Fan
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:33 pm)

    There’s going to be a bunch of technologies coming down the pike in the next 10 years as far as charging goes. Smart charging that integrates with the smart grid via GM’s OnStar system, etc.

    http://bioage.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4fbe53ef0120a5045aa8970b-popup

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/bellino-20090819.html#more

    Allowing your Volt’s battery to interact with the smart grid and give it some juice when its needed might drop your electricity bill a good bit. Then you might be driving your Volt for 1 cent per mile instead of 3 cents per mile. Driving today’s old fashioned, 20th century, loud, polluting, internal combustion engine cars costs you maybe 15+ cents per mile. I’d much prefer to pay $4 in electricity for a 400 mile road trip vs. $60 in gasoline for a 400 mile trip. Who wouldn’t ?


  253. 253
    ccombs

     

    ccombs
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:36 pm)

    A worldwide standard, or at least a set of broad geographical standards, seems like it might be a wise option before plug-ins proliferate and we have a haphazard cell phone charger-esque mess on our hands.

    PS. Jealous of you getting to charge your EREV (Ampera?) with 240 volts and an 80% nuclear power mix. At least presumably, judging by your name.


  254. 254
    DaveP

     

    DaveP
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:44 pm)

    Hmmm. I just saw kind of a related thing over at greencarcongress about how GM envisions interacting with the “smart grid”:

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/bellino-20090819.html#more

    Frankly, I don’t want all my smart systems in my home making their own decisions about how to interface with the grid (or worse, having the power company make those decisions for me).
    I want all my devices to coordinate locally with each other based on choices that I make.

    I’m working hard to create and coordinate my own smart systems in my house (Just added the furnace onto the network to join the weather station and solar system :)

    For example, when the power grid goes down during the day and I’m producing more power than I can put into the house batteries or use, I would want to go ahead and charge the car using my otherwise wasted power.
    My local control system can sense that condition and make that decision but the corporate grid control system can’t make the right choices for me.


  255. 255
    Tagamet

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:45 pm)

    ccombs,
    Yes, the darn drug company stole my “handle”. I may have to change it to cimetidine. That doesn’t quite roll off the tongue as easily as Tagamet though. I’ve used Tagamet for *decades*. Literally.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  256. 256
    ug

     

    ug
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:45 pm)

    Toshiba has its own Altair-nano type batteries. I believe they have finally started making them–initially for use in electric bikes. The energy density isn’t there yet. It would still be great for low-mileage EV conersions compared to lead and the lifecycles should beat LiFePO and Lithium Manganese. So there is still promise there. It just hasn’t been in the news lately.

    It’s a pretty pricey bike.

    http://www.harborcountrybike.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ST9TAILWIND&click=2


  257. 257
    Tagamet

     

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:50 pm)

    I’d hope that they didn’t cut a deal with a specific company, because that’d hinder universal acceptance. Wouldn’t it?
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  258. 258
    steel

     

    steel
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (5:56 pm)

    Yep.

    Although an AER of 40 miles equates to a UF of 65.5%, see Slide 24 for that explanantion.

    I think the issue is… we have really unclear estimates from GM about where the 230 MPG number is based on…. Is it, as suggested, normal City Cycle UDDS SAE J1711? Or what? Does 25 kWh/100 miles equate to the SAE J1634 testing procedure? (Really good!) or is it the SAE J1711 procedure? (Not so good)

    But as you say, I based the 10 kWh per charge on the 4 miles per kWh from the testing with an extra “fudge” factor for aggressive/non-optimal driving.


  259. 259
    ug

     

    ug
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (6:05 pm)

    Well, gee. If you are nit picking solar panels I don’t know why you are reading about the Volt, which surely causes more damage to the environment during manufacturing.


  260. 260
    steel

     

    steel
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (6:23 pm)

    Mmm…

    #1. A Navigation + Leather V6 Camry MSRP is above 32,000. I am assuming, potential unfairly, that the 43k+ Volt will include navigation and Leather. 150,000 Miles MSRP + Fuel = 52,000

    #2. A Navigation + Leather Civic MSRP is above 24,000. I can’t even do this to a Corolla. = 39,000

    #3. A Navigation + Leather I4 Camry MSRP is above 29,000. = 46,000

    Volt? Initial Price 43k. MSRP + Fuel – 7.5k = 42,000

    A 300 dollar a year premium over that Civic and 400 dollars a year less than that I4 Camry. IE the Cost Premium is not like going to a 35,000 dollar Audi A3/A4, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes type premium C-Class car. The Volt will be a small premium over a normal C-Class car (configured similarly). Which is why its a Chevy and not a Caddy.

    But unless this point is made somehow, the Press and the buying public at large will react : “No one wants a 40,000 + Civic!” or “I can get a fully loaded Camry for less than that!”

    I think many people would be willing to pay 300 dollars a year to use next to no gas. If the perception is 1,000 dollars a year to use next to no gas…. the market shrinks and public opinion is harsher.


  261. 261
    LazP

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:02 pm)

    you meant CO not CO2. CO2 is never poisonous but too much of it might suffocate you.


  262. 262
    Noel Park

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:09 pm)

    So does that mean that I have to hire an electrical contractor and get a permit to install the 220v plug? I can’t just plug it into the dryer receptacle? Great!


  263. 263
    Newman

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:17 pm)

    Altair-nano batteries;
    Very fast charge 10mins.
    Super long life 20,000 cycles.
    Energy density only average around 110wh/kg but more of that battery capacity can be used compared to other lithium tech.

    High cost is another reason I think GM wasn’t interested.

    Here’s some earlier info.
    http://green.autoblog.com/2007/05/07/autobloggreen-qanda-altairnano-ceo-alan-gotcher/

    AeroVironment Quick Charge verification of Altair-nano batteries.
    10 mins enough for for 2 hours driving at 60mph.

    http://green.autoblog.com/2007/05/30/aerovironment-successfully-quick-charges-altair-nanotechnologie/


  264. 264
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:18 pm)

    I asked that in the live chat and he said retractable cords had durability issues.


  265. 265
    Dave G

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:22 pm)

    That would be 100,000 plug-ins. The Volt is not the only plug-in. There will be PHEVs, EREVs, and BEVs, with multiple vehicles in each class. GM is said to be announcing 3 more plug-ins (a PHEV and 2 more EREVs) by the end of this year.

    I believe things are really ripe for plug-ins. The SUV = status symbol equation is fading fast. More people are connecting the dots between foreign oil money and terrorism. With gas prices over $4/gallon last summer leading to a near economic collapse, the financial problems associated with oil dependence are painfully obvious. Put that together with a growing concern over global warming, and I see plug-ins as the next big thing.

    So 100,000 plug-ins in California in 5 years seems about right…


  266. 266
    Dave G

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:29 pm)

    By the way, the EV1 used induction, but that was a paddle.


  267. 267
    Dave G

    -2

     

    Dave G
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:31 pm)

    Mark my words, rolling blackouts in 5 years…


  268. 268
    Xiaowei1

     

    Xiaowei1
     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:53 pm)

    I can see some practical jokes coming with this one – super glue the plug in, so the owner can’t even cut the cord to drive away…


  269. 269
    Xiaowei1

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (7:56 pm)

    the price would still have to compete with gas, or you wont bother to charge the car up.


  270. 270
    old man

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:00 pm)

    Cord less at home should be doable BUT, I don’t want to haul around the floor half of an inductive system when I go on holiday.


  271. 271
    old man

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:02 pm)

    My feeling exactly. However this is not GM’ doing. It is a code thing.


  272. 272
    Shock Me

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:21 pm)

    Stas,

    Were you planning on carpeting the earth in PVs? Cuz I’m pretty sure it would take a lot of them to have a measurable effect.


  273. 273
    JEC

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:27 pm)

    Well, unless you do your laundry in the garage, I would think you would need to add a dedicated 220 outlet.

    Running a long extension cord would not be advised.

    Yes, most likely you will need to pull a permit to have this installed. Some municipalities allow you to perform your own electrical work some do not. If you do it yourself, the inspector will likely be a hard a$$, and you better hope you followed the code to letter.

    I would guess it would run you $300-500 to get a dedicated drop installed. I would recommend a dedicated, w/o the hassle of tripping breakers because the wife decides to blow dry her hair while your car is in charge mode.

    BTW: If I were adding a dedicated drop, I would up it to handle 50 amps, so that when the quick charge becomes available, I am ready to go. This will probably jump the price up quite a bit, since all the electrical components jump in price once you exceed the more standard 15 or 20 amp outlet. Probably $1,000+ if installed by a contractor.


  274. 274
    Herm

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:38 pm)

    I really should not use the term “inductive charging”, what we really are talking about is wireless power transfer.. more akin to radio than a transformer.. but it really is all electromagnetism.


  275. 275
    Jackson

    +1

     

    Jackson
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:42 pm)

    GM has got actual prototypes people have ridden in, after a program lasting half as long as EEStor’s. What have we gotten from EEStor? Endless repititions of particle purity and another property or two which may be meaningless in an actual device which has not been forthcoming.

    You cannot compare GM’s openness on the Volt with the endless half-truths of EEStor which could be settled with a working protype at an independent lab.

    There is much more evidence of real product at GM than at EEStor; which has yet to reasonably dissuade most observers from idea that the company is just a front for pump-and-dump charlatans.

    I regret that I have but one negative vote to bestow on Bruce.


  276. 276
    Herm

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:42 pm)

    I’m sure the nissan/nec battery will last longer than 5 years, that is just the warranty term. Probably it all depends on how often you do a full cycle.. 100 miles a day will get you 5 years, 50 miles a day will do 10 years or something like that.. perhaps a total life of 180k miles before it hits 80% degradation.


  277. 277
    Herm

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:47 pm)

    Literally the pack will not be charged above its 80% fully charged point.. probably to about 3.95v per cell instead of 4.2v.

    Most of the non linearity is above 4.0v but its all a guess without actual real data… the only lithium-manganese-spinel cells I have played with are the ones used in the Milwaukee power tools.


  278. 278
    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:47 pm)

    Not yet.


  279. 279
    Shock Me

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:51 pm)

    The only way to solve the chicken or egg problem is to start with something that isn’t quite a chicken. Hence the Volt. Part velociraptor part hawk.


  280. 280
    Jackson

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:52 pm)

    Quick charging has never, ever gotten to the table. It’s all been at the level of ‘what if’ and speculation.

    I do think we need to leave a chair open for it’s arrival.


  281. 281
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:54 pm)

    but the cost will not be same.. it will be more expensive because those specialized charging stations will be rare and cost more.

    Lets do a thought experiment.. you Texas get your Nissan Catfish II and you use it for your daily driving.. at night it goes back to your garage.. how often would you actually plug it into your fast charger?.. probably never, you would always choose the slowest rate that was practical. You would only do a 30 minute charge when you are traveling long distances in between cities.

    There will be fast charge stations built in the middle of cities, but they will not be successful as a business. Same thing with PBP, the battery swap stations are just there for peace of mind, few people will actually use them.


  282. 282
    Jackson

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:57 pm)

    Well, I guess you told me.


  283. 283
    Herm

    +1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (8:59 pm)

    They are tough batteries but costly.. dont know if the cost can be brought down with mass production.. cobalt is not a cheap material unlike lithium or iron.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/2782411/Cobalt-price-soars-as-stockpiles-run-low.html


  284. 284
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:08 pm)

    I dont buy the 10kw charger as being too heavy.. maybe a 10lbs more and most of that would be the thicker wires needed to carry the higher currents.. cost should not be too bad either. Perhaps GM should make it an option instead of the 3kw charger?

    This is a transformerless switching power supply, efficient and light weight.


  285. 285
    Dan Petit

    -1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:08 pm)

    Dave G.

    The reason why I don’t think that we will at all have rolling blackouts in 5 years is that Smart Meters will be installed everywhere. The reason for that is that if you have a huge home and are completely careless with how much electricity you use, or you have a huge demand surge, YOU ARE GOING TO PAY VERY DEARLY.

    Escalated cost ramp-ups per both total kilowatt hours, in conjunction with a sudden demand at any time will certainly
    economically KILL any unwise usage patterns whatsoever, altogether, it seems to me. (Mark my words: They shall pay.)

    Got 13 mansions that are A/C’d ? There ought to be a combined-owner-usage-factor-WORLDWIDE, whereby, if someone does not live there in the other 12 mansions, and, the AC is just on when no-one is living there, then you ought to multiply 13 times kilowatts FOR ALL THOSE LOCATIONS, times demand surge factor as a one-time (AT LEAST) penalty to get their attention. The idea is that large users must be held accountable for frivolous usages. The rest of us are held to rate increase steps that are difficult to pay when we have no control over the record-breaking heat loads on our residential air conditioning systems.
    Frivolous users should be held accountable because WE are the ones who have to pay an unfair proportion of THEIR DEMAND and PEAK generation capacities in OUR bills and residential property taxes with the issue of bonds, etc., while WE are the ones who are buying the CFL’s and cutting demand as much as possible.

    “Soak the power-frivolous rich?” In this one situation, I say YES
    ABSOLUTELY!


  286. 286
    Herm

    +1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:11 pm)

    I will p*e*e on those trees for you Capt, free fertilizer, doing my part to save the planet.


  287. 287
    Herm

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:12 pm)

    I was thinking the same thing..


  288. 288
    Loboc

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (9:59 pm)

    It shouldn’t be that big a deal to install a 220v dedicated circuit hardwired into the charging set. It’s no different than hardwiring into a plug for your electric range. It’s just a different device.

    Fortunately, I am only 5 feet from the mains in the center of the sidewall of my garage :) That 10ga copper is not cheap. And the newer code specifies 4 not 3 conductors. Even then, a permitted/inspected installation is around $500 in my area.

    The problem is all the other 220v stuff (pool pump, hvac, range, water heater, dryer, etc. plus all the 110 circuits) There may not be enough room in the mains to add another circuit without going over the 200amp entrance capacity.

    Oh well, I always wanted a 400amp entrance anyway so I can run the shop without shutting down something else (about half the cost of a Volt to do that job). Or, I could switch out the dryer, water heater and range to gas. Probably a much better solution as gas is much more efficient for heating.

    Come to think of it, the kitchen already has gas for the range even though this one is electric. hmmm… That’s on the other side of the opposite wall in the garage.

    OK. 10k for a new Wolf then. 40k for the Volt. Reuse the range’s circuit. Makes everybody happy.

    Did GM ever decide if they are doing a charge port on both sides of the car? I never got a good answer on that one. Lyle?


  289. 289
    koz

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:04 pm)

    Cracker Barrel.

    Been saying it for 3 years.


  290. 290
    koz

     

    koz
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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:07 pm)

    Is that where 5 minutes keeps coming up?


  291. 291
    Xiaowei1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (10:25 pm)

    The US government is having the hardest time in the world trying to reform its health care system; I cannot see the same government putting taxes on petrol to force it over $4 a gallon without the sky somehow falling in.


  292. 292
    nasaman

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:05 pm)

    I just noticed that two industry luminaries asked Gery Kissel questions in the chat, both of whom he recognized……

    Chelsea Sexton at 2:16 (Executive Director of Plug In America)

    Akio Toyoda at 2:41 (New CEO of Toyota)

    Sorry I was away today, but glad to see this site has become such a magnet to key people in the industry (in addition to GM executives)! My kudos to you, Lyle!


  293. 293
    Dave G

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:10 pm)

    This could be done with metal contacts in the bumper or under the car.


  294. 294
    Carcus1

     

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    Aug 20th, 2009 (11:12 pm)

    Really don’t understand the “grid’s gonna break” fear of quick charging.

    Even if you assume electric cars start selling in high volume.

    Quick charging is just a convenience option that would be used very infrequently. Most people are not going to go to the expense of having quick charge capability in their homes. This will just be a nice feature that’s available at the mall or grocery store – whatever.

    Q. What percentage of cars are travelling more than 40 miles a day (or even 60 or 80 or 100) and would need a quick charge?
    A. Less than 20%

    Q. Of that 20%, how many will be BEV’s?
    A. Very very few.

    While grid planning for electric cars is maybe something to think about for long range planning. It’s a non-issue in the next 10 or 20 years.

    Just plug your car in when you get home. When you get up, it’s ready to go. The grid’s ready. I’m ready. Bring on the electric cars.

    Oh, and if you research how much capacity has been added to the grid over the past 20 years in this housing boom. It has by far exceeded any imaginable demand from electric cars in the next 20.


  295. 295
    DonC

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (12:10 am)

    Well you have two different sized cars, and we have no idea what options the Volt has, so it’s difficult to get a very good comparison. I pulled the Camry prices from the Edmunds Camry “Prices Paid” Forum, and I don’t know if the cars mentioned by posters there had the leather option or not.

    Having said that, the SE is probably a favorable but not realistic comparison to the Volt. If you look at the Edmunds Forum you’ll notice that most of the Camrys which are selling are the 4 Cyl models priced between $20K and $24K. If we use that as the comparison model, which we probably should, then the Volt is more like $15K more, which means it’s virtually impossible to make up the original price difference through lower gas prices and running costs.

    Personally I don’t like these comparisons because the vehicles are so different. But one thing which should be very clear is that the Volt at $43K is not a Super Saver Special. It’s a relatively expensive car.


  296. 296
    DonC

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (12:25 am)

    I thought it fairly clear that the 230 MPG was for the City Cycle which will be in place for 2010 models. The 25 kWh / 100 mile number is for the same Cycle.

    These numbers are for J1711 not J1634. J1634 is for BEVs. It generates an MPG(e) number but not an MPG number. J1711 is for PHEVs, which is the class into which the Volt fits, and uses two numbers — MPG and kWh/100 miles. GM says that for the Volt those numbers will be: 230 MPG City and 25 kWh / 100 mile City.


  297. 297
    DonC

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (12:31 am)

    I just assumed that Akio Toyoda was a put-on.


  298. 298
    Matthew_B

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (12:44 am)

    Is it really Akio Toyoda?

    I have my doubts…


  299. 299
    Carcus1

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (12:48 am)

    Prolly right. I just felt like doggin’ GM for a sec.. . . . and bragging about my breaker boxes.


  300. 300
    Steel

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (12:57 am)

    I guess I see this “perfect” commerical in my head
    1/5 the gas of the prius
    unlimited daily range
    Driving dynamics better than a Jetta TDI

    All for less than a comparably equiped Camry.

    Like or not people compare cars based alot on price and a 40,000 car will be compared to a 3 series BMW. It’s tough to convince someone that a Chevy is worth the same as a BMW or Lexus… You don’t really get a second chance at a first impression, and I think the Volt needsto be seen as a Toyota/Honda/Ford class car… And it’s ten year costs show it is…..


  301. 301
    Keith

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (1:38 am)

    Inductive charging is the only way to go .
    Think about it , we all hate going to the gas station even if we only go once a week or every ten days .
    Don’t give me this crap about efficiencies , I just don’t care about that , none , zero , zip .
    Now think about going to the plug in station , even if it is at home EVERY DAY for as long as you own the damned car . Walking under the plugged in cord , having to stop and put things down and pick them up again EVERY TIME you walk through your car port or garage .
    A car over induction charger is the only way to have more freedom from being a slave to the stupid car .
    I want freedom from my car , not an extra commitment to it . PLUG IN SUCKS , PLUG IN SUCKS , PLUG IN SUCKS .
    I want the Volt technology , but I sure want to be released from having to physically get involved with putting the energy into it when it can be done automatically with modern technology .


  302. 302
    Keith

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (2:02 am)

    I agree with you . A plug-in cord just seem to be so backward and inconvenient for something that is supposed to be “futuristic” .


  303. 303
    Darius

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (3:11 am)

    You will be not able pushing more than 8 kwh into the battery therefore the max charging power is less than 9 kwh.


  304. 304
    Darius

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (3:58 am)

    Those are prospects on synthetic fuel. But you have to spend lot of electricity when making it from sea water.


  305. 305
    mmcc

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (4:28 am)

    Excellent webchat… great info. I had two 240v circuits added to my garage last year in anticipation of the Volt. With Idaho Power rates at around $.06/KWH it will only cost around $.50 for a full charge.


  306. 306
    Herm

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (5:01 am)

    You dont need to cook a turkey at midnight either.. anyways I prefer the taste of food cooked on a gas range… and water should be heated with gas, lots cheaper that way.


  307. 307
    Greg Simpson

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (5:07 am)

    While I agree he meant to say CO, CO2 is somewhat toxic. It is dangerous at levels well below the smothering range.


  308. 308
    Mark Z

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (5:15 am)

    What about the electric rates in Southern California? How many will plug their VOLT or other BEV into the wall socket that is already at a tier 5 rate. Do you realize what those rates are? Open the .pdf and learn the shocking truth on page 21. Yes, that is 30.7 cents per kWh for the estimated Oct 1, 2009 rate.

    http://www.epa.gov/region/waterinfrastructure/training/energy-workshop/docs/0623/2009-spring-rate.pdf

    Now look at page 31 and see the trend. The rates are not going down. Now I know that Edison will certainly offer a low charge rate for EV, but how many will actually do the work to get that lower rate? If you are at a friends home, are they at tier 5 already? How could you ask them to plug in when the cost is almost 31 cents a kWh?

    These are serious questions that need to be addressed before shipping the majority of the VOLTS to these ridiculously high electric rate states. Perhaps the EPA sticker should be adjusted for the area the car is sold in.


  309. 309
    koz

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (5:45 am)

    People need to take their fingers out of their fingers out of their ears and quit saying “NAA, NAA, NAA…”. There are a lot of good things (for EVs, EV owners, the grid, and power utilities) that can be achieved with V2G and V2HOUSE, and no of those scenarious need materialy affect the life of a consumer owned battery.


  310. 310
    koz

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (6:00 am)

    I want one of these http://teslafounders.wordpress.com/2009/08/18/the-roadster-foundry-mobile-charger/#comment-6436 for the Volt and 240V outlets at highway stops and destination parking. This is a charge cord developed by THE founder of TESLA.


  311. 311
    Loboc

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (6:44 am)

    I like the engineering thinking that the car won’t operate with the cord plugged in.

    This could also be a problem. A dongle could be designed to disable the Volt merely by plugging into the charge port! Dang analog hackers.


  312. 312
    Tagamet

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (7:22 am)

    koz,
    Haven’t you ever said “my battery is dead – I need a quick jump?” (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS!


  313. 313
    Dan Petit

     

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (7:28 am)

    steel,

    Thank you for the 150,000 mile fuel cost projections. Those are really helpful also for investors to fully appreciate what GM is doing.

    I have a hunch that Volt may be more like “under $4,000″ for the 150,000 miles at no more than $36 a month for gas for 95% of owners at $3.60 a gallon for gas averaged over the next ten years, annualized Winter-no-AC/Summer-with-AC driving at 48 miles a day (18,000 miles a year). (Pardon the run-on sentence).

    Gas above $3.60 would again collapse the world economies. Cost of gas is again progressing that way anyway. People can not plan long-term budgets anymore with any reliabilities with all these “cost, supply, demand” financial games that are being played against everyone.

    Therefore, FAR, FAR more investments must be directed toward E-REV type vehicles BY ALL OEM’s!.

    OEM’s that are not going this way like GM are very seriously risking the anger, ire, and increased disgust from their customers who will shockingly come to these feelings when Volt comes out in November of next year.

    A possible reason for a maximum cost of $3.60 a gallon I would think, is that it may turn out that non-gasoline use by Volt, BEV’s and alternative fuels may suppress the demand and cost of gasoline as we go through those ten years.

    Petroleum financial gaming is always going to be played to extract money from us, it seems to me. But there will be absolutely no acceptable excuses from/for OEM boards of directors (some of whom may likely get fired), when more and more of their customers begin to email them increasingly fervent demands for E-REV, and, their shareholders hold them to their indecisive technical incompetence.

    On another topic. If that truly is mrtoyoda coming here, it would seem to me that those statements reflect a very emotionally-needy individual. If it is not mrtoyoda, it is someone who is a very pretentious and emotionally-unfulfilled individual.
    Very sad in any case, if Toyota is indeed coming out with E-REV, which Toyota ought to be proud of. If they are indeed proud of their product, they ought to be generously genuous about it with the public mutual-congratulations to GM for Voltec as well. This philosophy would elevate Toyota up nearly as technologically-high as is GM with Voltec.


  314. 314
    Joe

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8:03 am)

    Dave G says

    “As for the 240 volt 48 amp 45 minute charging possibility, yes we always knew the batteries could go that fast, but when you say “encourage infrastructure development”, I interpret this rolling blackouts.”

    ***********************************************************************

    What I interpret him saying is….. the power companies can easily provide power for millions of Volts, but the “local infrastructure” for the quick charging is not there. Why? Businesses, restaurants, work places, sub divisions, etc, are constructed with transformers only large enough to handle the lesser charge with not much overcapacity. To provide power for the higher amperage (say 50 amps) will require larger transformers. By simply adding these higher amperage outlets would be against the NEC and would also blow fuses on the transformer. A new infrastructure will have to be built for the 50 amp quick charge. Unless the government help out with the costs, it will take time for this to happen.


  315. 315
    Joe

     

    Joe
     Says

     

    Aug 21st, 2009 (8:10 am)

    “Chelsea Sexton at 2:16 (Executive Director of Plug In America)

    Akio Toyoda at 2:41 (New CEO of Toyota)”

    *********************************************************************

    Do you think this was a joke? I find it hard to believe these guy were who they claim to because of their questions.


  316. 316
    nasaman

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (8:51 am)

    You may very well be right, but Gery Kissel certainly played it with a straight face (‘course, he may have been laughing like a hyena off line!)


  317. 317
    Noel Park

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (10:29 am)

    Actually yes, we do the laundry in the (attached) garage. Welcome to California. Since we switched to a gas dryer, the 220v dryer outlet is sitting there dong nothing, about 5 feet from where the Volt will park.

    I wonder what happens when I cut the end off the cable and screw on a dryer plug, LOL. Come to think of it, maybe that’s the aftermarked opportunity, hehehe.


  318. 318
    N Riley

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (10:41 am)

    Either a “quick jump” or a “quick hump”.


  319. 319
    Prompter Bob

     

    Prompter Bob
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    Aug 21st, 2009 (10:47 am)

    What about a charger for people who park in a driveway and not a garage? Can the high-voltage charging station be installed outdoors?


  320. 320
    Tagamet

     

    Tagamet
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    Aug 21st, 2009 (11:08 am)

    Same thing! (lol)
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  321. 321
    steel

     

    steel
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    Aug 21st, 2009 (11:40 am)

    Only one problem. EPA 2008 “City” results are actually a blend of different cycles. My readings of SAE J1711 doesn’t specifiy the mixture these must be done in. I am also confused by this quote from the press release

    “Under the new methodology being developed, EPA weights plug-in electric vehicles as traveling more city miles than highway miles on only electricity. ”

    How is that relevant to a discusion of EPA City. Wouldn’t the new methodology for City of course use City miles?!? Or is this a hint that city AER will be higher than 40 miles? (See below for that confusion) Or that the “combined” score will be 60% or 70% city rather than 55%??

    Okay, here is my confusion over the 25 kWh/100 miles (Which would be units of a J1634 test btw, not MPGe)

    The draft SAE J1711 use Utility factor for BOTH Gas and Electric.

    http://www.che.ncsu.edu/ILEET/phevs/plug-in_2008/2A-2_PHEV%20Testing.pdf

    Lets assume a UF of 0.7 for the “city” cycle. SAE J1711 figure of 25 kWh/100 miles, leads to a CD mode electric usage of 35 kWh/100 miles!

    Even if I take .8 as the charging efficieny, thats still 28 kWh/100 miles from battery during CD mode. If GM is sticking to 8 kWh per charge, thats an AER of only 29 miles! Which would never qualify it for a UF of .7. But lower utility factors only lead to worse and worse kWh/100 miles numbers and thus even lower AER.

    Worse, if I follow the curve in Slide 25 of the ANL presentation, I do get a UF of ~.63, which means to get 230 MPG I must have a CS mode of 85 mpg!! If I follow slide 24, its a more reasonable 62 mpg, but thats still very high mpg. If I go with 50 mpg as the CS mode, then by slide 25 I need an AER of 70! Slide 24, I only need an AER of 45, which is believable…. but shouldn’t slide 25 be the right slide to use??

    Furthermore, when I look at the actual draft government instructions for testing plug-ins… SAE J1711 and SAE J1634 are both mentioned. SAE J1634 when the recharger has been disabled.

    In conclusion, I can see the framework, but without some actual details, this gets a little fuzzy…


  322. 322
    steel

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (11:54 am)

    31 cents per kWh?? I would say people will start demanding off-peak reduced rates and stick to off peak!

    But at 31 cents per kWh, I get 150,000 fuel costs at roughly 11,500 dollars. Or an MRSP (43k) + Fuel – 7.5 at 47k.

    Still very reasonable compared to a similar I4 Camry. I guess its choice, space or using 1/7th the gas and probably something like 1/2 to 1/3 the emissions (California is 60% natural gas, high nuclear and high renewables, which means the C02 per mile is around 1/2 that of a Prius, so probably 1/3 that of the I4 Camry. Pollution is tough to quantifiy)


  323. 323
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (12:54 pm)

    That’s just a “dumb switch,” the processing power will be on board in the silicon located with the charger.


  324. 324
    EVO

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (3:14 pm)

    False analogy. You don’t recharge broadband bytes at a later time and EV recharging is the opposite of broadband use as your charging is done when you aren’t actively using your vehicle (sure, an oversimplification, but the discussion of in road and other on the fly charging schema can be a major topic post for the generation 9 Voltec pickup truck launch in the era of President Mrs. Y.E. Yang).

    If you are asleep at the time at home, why would you care or know, fast or slow, and timed for an optimal grid load smoothing / consumer preference combination? All full when you wake up is what counts. Try that with any gasser that’s on fumes when you get home the previous evening.

    Just showing that personal experience beats false abstract analogies, so don’t bust my chops too bad.

    :)


  325. 325
    Bob Grimm

    -1

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (3:14 pm)

    Cost per mile Electric vs. Gasoline

    115 V @ 12 Amps for 6 Hrs = 8.3 KWh @ $0.14/ KWh = 1.16
    115 V @ 8 Amps for 8 hrs = 7.4 KWh

    8.3 KWh @ $0.14/ KWh = 1.16 Tier I
    8.3 KWh @ $0.27/ KWh = 2.41 Tier III

    7.4 KWh @ $0.14/ KWh = 1.04 Tier I
    7.4 KWh @ $0.27/ KWh = 1.99 Tier III

    Assume worst case unless you use no other electricity

    Electricity
    $2.41 / 40 miles = $0.0603 / mi

    Equivilent mileage @ $2.90/ Gal for gasoline
    $2.90 / $.0603 = 48 miles / equiv gallon

    Not hardly 200+ MPG. I for one do not trust anyone who cannot perform basic math


  326. 326
    Larry McFall

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (3:51 pm)

    Sounds like an essential piece of equipment that would be part of the package. Providing you want to charge the batteries by plugging them in to an external source. Keep up the good work and make us US Americans Proud that we’ve got a GM.


  327. 327
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2009 (2:47 am)

    Hi ccombs,

    Thanks, some précisions.

    I’m from Belgium where in my own house I may use 220V/16amp as a normal household plug. I also have a plug at 480V/32amp in the kitchen but I need to install a new line to get a similar plug in my garage.

    I already asked my Opel garage to get an Ampera as ssoon as they will be available. But they cannot say which kind of charger will be available.

    I kwow there are progresses on a common norm in W. Europe (The E.U.) because, as you said, the authorities do not want a repetition of what happened with the cell phone chargers (They decided a few months ago to unify the chargers for the new phones however).

    Regards,

    JC


  328. 328
    cjohn1

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2009 (5:01 am)

    Where is the plug-in located on the Volt?


  329. 329
    Me (Ricky Bobby)

     

    Me (Ricky Bobby)
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    Aug 22nd, 2009 (8:28 am)

    240V will be a dealer add on to finance for five years! Oh yea and you have to get a qualified electrician to install it or we won’t give you the code to make it work!


  330. 330
    Me (Ricky Bobby)

     

    Me (Ricky Bobby)
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    Aug 22nd, 2009 (9:03 am)

    I don’t want to compete, I want to help BOB. There is more than one entrance!

    Just ask my smokin’ hot wife Carly…..


  331. 331
    NZDavid

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2009 (7:08 pm)

    Well that would suck!

    /I wanna change my name to Statik II


  332. 332
    NZDavid

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2009 (7:10 pm)

    For me it’s simple 230 V cable and that’s it. Our power regs allow us to plug in so no hard wiring required. :-)


  333. 333
    NZDavid

     

    NZDavid
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    Aug 22nd, 2009 (7:17 pm)

    And here I was thinking you just used Tagamet for your patients, shortly before giving them the consultation bill!

    /Just funning with ya.


  334. 334
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 22nd, 2009 (7:23 pm)

    NZDavid,
    The Bill is best preceded by a sedative. POST bill is the Tagamet (lol).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  335. 335
    Tagamet

     

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Aug 22nd, 2009 (7:27 pm)

    Keith,
    You’re joking aren’t you?
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  336. 336
    Roy

     

    Roy
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    Aug 26th, 2009 (4:35 pm)

    Infrastructure improvement may not mean “The Grid” it may mean the very local questions of transformer and or conductor loading on the scale of the particular home or residential block. It may be necessary to upgrade the Service Entrance on the individual home. Some older houses only have 60 amp supplies coming in from the utility. Even if the homes have 100 or 200 amp services they may not have the extra capacity to wire a dedicated 50 amp circuit. I work in the Engineering department of an electric utility and am responsible for these issues. Usually we “Peak” at around six o’clock in the afternoon. By 10 o’clock we are far enough off peak to handle even large additional loads. I don’t think night time charging will be a problem for us unless plug in cars replace conventional vehicles unexpectedly fast.


  337. 337
    Roy

     

    Roy
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    Aug 26th, 2009 (6:53 pm)

    A few thoughts: I work for a rural electric coop. Changing out residential power transformers takes less than an hour in most cases. Most of our customers are on individual transformers. The conductors to the house and the Service Entrance size are going to be the biggest problems for our customers. We do not charge for increasing the size of the transformer or the lead in conductors when the customer is increasing their load. The meter and breaker panel at the house is the customers property and they must deal with that. This is where the customer can see real expense if they want to charge at 230 volts and 50 amps.

    If our customers stay with 120v charging I do not think most of them would have to upgrade.

    We are usually at about 75% of our peak demand by ten o’clock in the evening. Unless an awful lot of people buy electric vehicles and insist on plugging them in when they get home from work at six o’clock, I do not expect problems with generation capacity in the short term. Those states and cities where the citizens have not allowed power plants to be built may have real worries.

    Equipping houses with demand meters would be very easy physically. Politically it could be a problem.

    Most of our power lines are built with a 30 year expected life. That implies that at least 1/30 of the lines are rebuilt in any given year. If electric vehicle penetratration takes 30 years to reach 100 perecent ( it aint gonna happen) I think we could keep up


  338. 338
    hank

     

    hank
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    Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:51 pm)

    It’s a $40k car so my question why isn’t the 220 volt charger built into the car. In looking at the charging station it just looks to be an over priced outlet. This looks like GM is working hand-in-hand with the energy industry so they can keep picking our pockets. I was reading an article on smart energy control. They were talking about being able to instantly raise and lower electricity prices based on demand, kind of reminds you of gas stations doesn’t it? Why is GM trying to makes it more costly for us to drive an electric car? Remember the demise of the EV. GM does not want the car on the market hence the external charger and price. GM had the patent for the best battery out there that could make the Volt go 200 miles on a charge. They sold it to an oil company. Thank goodness it expires in 2014. At the current design and price the volt will die from foreign competition. Well it just shows greed runs America. Thanks for letting me vent.


  339. 339
    hank

     

    hank
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    Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:05 pm)

    Common since shows for an electric car to fit into society it needs a universal way to charge. The most logical choice it to have a built in charger and use an every day extension cords for the connection. Yes they even make a 220v high amp extension as well. Now if your worried about driving away with the cord still attached don’t, the car can sense the power is connect and not allow it to move until it’s unplugged. By doing things the smart way all you need to do is put in a dedicated outlet in your garage. If a business wants to provide the same they can and they can attach a pay station to charge by the KW used. They can even put in solar and make a bigger profit. We all know the energy consortium doesn’t like this concept, too bad, It’s better for us and the environment.