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Charging the Chevy Volt
Recently GM revealed the production charging equipment that will come with the Volt when it can finally be bought.
There will be a portable 120 V unit (R) that can be plugged into any standard receptacle. It will be able to recharge the car fully in 6 hours at 12 amps or 8 hours at 8 amps.
The other device option (L) is a 240 V stationary wall-mounted unit that has to be installed in the owners garage per code. This unit running at 16 amps can recharge the Volt in 3 hours.
Both utilize a newly ratified interface or coupler standard called SAE J1772, that provides durability, communications, and safety functions and well as universal usability among EVs.
The Volt charging units are very robust and designed to withstand even a complete dunk in a bucket of water. As well, there is a flashlight at the tip for finding the receptacle on the car even in the dark.
Furthermore, importantly, the system is designed so the car cannot drive when it is plugged in. The Volt also has a small LED bulb on the top of the dash that flashes when the car is charging so you can tell from a distance.
I actually proposed to GM that they offer a optional charger also capable of 240V 48 amp charging. At that rate, the Volt could be recharged in about 45 minutes. This would be a great feature for those who want it, and would help to encourage infrastructure development as people could recharge their Volts a rest stops in as much time as it takes to have dinner. It would be a great marketing tool as well.
Volt exec Tony Posawatz poured a little water on my enthusiasm.
“Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.”
Anyway you too can have a chance to ask questions directly of Gery Kissel, GM’s engineering specialist who developed the Volt’s charging equipment right here below on a live webchat at 2PM EDT:
August 20th, 2009 at 7:41 am
Another milestone!
Be well,
Tagamet
NPNS!!
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August 20th, 2009 at 7:46 am
Ok – if the Volt can handle the 220v @ 48 amps then it sounds like a business opportunity for an aftermarket charger. Any EEs out there that would like to collaborate on one? Ken.
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August 20th, 2009 at 7:47 am
3 hours? Thats great. Are there any smart people here who can confirm or deny that charging is not linear? i.e, getting that last 10% of charge takes longer than say, the middle 10% of charge?
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August 20th, 2009 at 7:48 am
The reason the higher amp charge is no supported, I believe, is not for safety reasons. Both are of the same voltage so both are equally dangerous. The reason is, fast charges are traditionally harder on batteries.
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August 20th, 2009 at 7:50 am
Lithium manganese spinel chemistry can handle 1 hour full charging routinely, faster for partial charges… apparently it is a limitation of the built-in charger. You should still plug it in every chance you get.
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August 20th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Thats amazing this post is less than 3 minutes old & already 5 posts as if we are powered ourselves by the Volt. And I thought for once I might see a virgin post by Lyle. Flashing light bulb on the dash, don’t you mean LED. Light bulbs are so 20th century.
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August 20th, 2009 at 7:57 am
Will GM provide replacement’s if they break, or if it breaks the car will GM fix my car? If so do we know the price?
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:00 am
Where I think there is a business opportunity is to have some form of prepaid/credit card/cellphone recharge station.
That could easily answer the need for existing parking in building. I know I would use it. If you can pay for a 14$-20$ parking place, you can easily afford an extra 5$ to recharge. You pay the full 5$, for 1hr or for 8hrs, keeps the model simple for everyone. Create a genuin business opportunity as over time, the infrastructure/installation cost needed can be paid back. This is also where the 48AMP would make more sense.
If the locking system is to hard to do (to make sure no one else use your “juice”) just assign specific parking place for green car distant enough from each other so the cable is not long enough to reach it (easy solution).
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Since you have to modify the car, it may void the warranty..
Either provide an external access point to the 400v DC bus for an external charger or beef up the existing on-board charger or add a second heavy duty on-board charger.. plus some changes to the software.
Someone will have the honor to be the first person electrocuted by a Volt
The mod I would like to see is an inductive charging pad to be placed on the garage floor.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:02 am
Thonas G
Lets just get the car produced and on the road first. Or maybe that’s a good question for the chat this PM.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:02 am
So using the fast charge, will it shorten the life of the batteries at all? It must heat up more but if the battereies are cooled optimally will that control battery life?
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:04 am
45 minute recharges would place opportunity charging at restaurants, cinemas, rest areas, grocery stores, and malls.
180 minute recharges limit opportunities to home, hotels, theme parks, camp grounds, and regional malls. (and of course other recreation destinations such as bars, dance clubs, casinos, and pool halls)
Hopefully public recharging can be done securely and be resistant to theft and vandalism over so long a period of time.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:06 am
That is true if we were charging the full 16kwh of the battery pack, but since all we are charging is the 50% in the middle then we pretty much get nearly perfect linear charging.
You will get that non-linear effect when charging the Nissan Leaf, that one uses 70% SOC discharge/recharge..
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:08 am
RamZ,
I’m no expert, but I think the “jolt” chargers that charge in 30 minutes – like the LEAF- could shorten life. Hence the shorter warranty of 5 years on the LEAF. Someone will (please) correct me if I’m wrong on this.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Cooling is essential to prolong life.. but 1 hour charges are considered normal for lithium batteries. Most of the heating effects occur when the battery is nearly fully charged or discharged.. the Volt battery never sees that by design.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:13 am
That is what I was thinking as I read it. If it isn’t outrageously priced I would buy it.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:14 am
For what it’s worth I would LOVE the 48 amp charger. I just had my electrical service upgraded and my Oven/Range is a 50 amp circuit. 48 amps would be a little close, but it’s not like you couldn’t have that added or run in parallel with your Oven/Range. A simple Selector Switch in your garage, laundry room etc. could be used so it’s not a big expense to add in without having to increase your total House Power. A friend of mine added 100 amps (House Standard is 200 amps) So obviously that becomes no issue if you have a work shop or just want the extra power. 48 amps of the100 amps to a work shop could easily be doubled up as your car charging station.
I think your correct Lyle to believe this is the way of the future. On a Saturday come home from running errands, plug your volt in and 45 minutes later your powered up again.
I firmly believe if the car takes hold it, GM will quickly partner with a nationally recognized restaurant and offer fast fill charging stations…
Todd
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:14 am
“Hopefully public recharging can be done securely and be resistant to theft and vandalism over so long a period of time.”
Inductive pad charging would take care of all that.. now is the time for the Feds to setup a pad standard, before the market gets flooded with 20 different brands of BEV.
Note that this is not your traditional electric toothbrush charger, but a high efficiency wireless power transfer over a distance of about 1 foot.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Herm,
Well put.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:16 am
There is a saftey issue 48 amps off a single circuit is a lot of current off a house hold SEP(service entrance panel). If your house wiring is not in great shape things could start getting hot. Even 12amps for 6 hours in some cases things could get a little warm. A little forthought needs to be applied to where you plug the thing in to. For example: I don’t know why it keeps popping the circuit beaker its only a 200 foot long extension cord, “directions” didn’t have time to read them!! I can make anthing work its under warranty.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:27 am
I understand that you want to have the Volt go into production, but thing’s have to be though out before hand. We cannot have Dave buy his Volt and then by acting like a complete Dave break his charger or even worse his car and then have no replacement or anyone to mend it. Of course a simple solution to this is to not let anyone with the name Dave buy a Volt.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:28 am
And another good subject article from Lyle.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Are you kidding? Tony Posawatz said, “Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps”; he also said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.” There’s no need to modify the car and void the warranty. This does look like an opportunity for after market, Ken.
I like the fact that GM has considered including the light on the plug’s end and the indicator lightbulb on the top of the dash.
Go Volt!
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:31 am
My wish is that a plug in 220/240 volt cord could be optional. I have a 220 plug at my house and one of my sons in law has a 220 Volt outlet.
I agree with all those who see an opportunity make fast charging stations. Those who own parking lots could start with a few spots and expand as needed. Most would pay twice what the juice cost rather than to pay 4+ times the cost for gas.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:32 am
From Lyle’s article – “Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.”
————-
Greg Ciesel (on the GM site) said the Volt charger can only accept about 3300W, and also commented other interesting things.
First
“You will have two options to charge the Chevy Volt. You can plug it into a 120V outlet or use 240V. Using 120V the on board charger will use 1,200 watts, which is about the maximum power available from a standard household outlet. This will charge the Volt in about 8 hours. We expect many people will want to use 240V for charging because it will charge the Volt in less than 3 hours. At 240V the charger will draw 3,300 watts.”
Then
The Chevy Volt charger is designed to accept a wide range of voltages from below 120V to above 240V and 50 / 60 Hz power to accommodate global usage. The Volt charger will be available with different plug configurations, including the most common plug configurations used in Europe for 230V. The charger design is limited to 3.3 kW and does not go up to 400V so it will not support charging at 43 kW. We realize there is interest in charging at rates above 3.3 kW and we are investigating this. One thing to consider is I would not expect 400V 3 phase 63A power to be available in a residential area but it could be available in a commercial area to allow a customer to charge while visiting a store, restaurant or other location. The cost, mass and size of a charger that operates at 43 kW would likely be off board the vehicle.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:33 am
“The Volt charging units are very robust and designed to withstand even a complete dunk in a bucket of water. As well, there is a flashlight at the tip for finding the receptacle on the car even in the dark.”
————————
Good engineering. Some days will be sunny, but surely not all.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Herm,
The cars on the receiving end need that tech built in too. Gen I probably won’t have it, so the Feds need to get the standard for both sides of the equation developed first – THEN implemented (publicly, or privately).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:36 am
““Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.”
——–
Good decision not to offer from the factory. Among other things, the wire for 48 amps is going to be bigger and harder to handle. So this capability is possibly an after-market opportunity, but taking advantage will require some planning to do smoothly and well.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:40 am
The last little percentage of charge must be slowed down to get to 100% without damaging the battery cells; this is why the pack can be charged the lesser amount of time. GM has thought the whole battery pack and charging circuitry out very well. I believe its the last 10% on both ends that effects battery life. On the low low end, GM provides additional discharge to assist in generator mode when necessary. On the upper end, it looks like they are providing additional assurances that the battery will be protected during charging.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Not fair! Wait! I do go by David/Zel…….never mind.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:41 am
old man
The could have really fast chargers at brothels too (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:41 am
i want an external 10KW charger, that has multiple types of connections. I can plug it into 120V 1PH, 480V 3PH, DC, whatever.
It would probably cost a lot, but i could charge my car in under an hour. I’d throw the “universal” charger in my trunk and use it when necessary.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:42 am
“..since you have to modify the car..”
———–
That’s not clear. Maybe gm gives access, possibly even though the standard connector.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Joe, I agree but there will be individuals who will acquire the higher amperage charger when it is available. Besides with the SAE J1772 coupler there shouldn’t be any danger as long as the owner doesn’t go tinkering with the wires.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Theft prevention? Does it lock onto the car?
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Great Lyle,
I kwow people that will be interested across the Atlantic Ocean where some questions about standardization are still open.
Regards,
JC
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:47 am
LOL, exactly. Forgot to mention: “I cannot understand why my 100 foot extnsion cord burst into flames…All I was doing was charging my car with 95 feet of the extension cord stil tightly wound around the storage reel/spool!
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Some particulars of interest are —>
Does either unit come with the car at no extra charge, or is the post saying that one (or the other) will be available for purchase?
And, how long is the cable, on each one?
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:52 am
That’s just not all that optimistic Tag!
Welcome back!
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:52 am
I believe someone from GM has said the charging isn’t linear. They didn’t exactly say this of course. What I remember being said is that you could get an 80% charge in about 45 minutes using the 240 line.
Maybe someone else can remember more exactly or provide a cite. And it’s a great question for the Q&A.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Muddyrover,
Actually at a certain age “quick” IS optimistic! (lol).
Glad to be back and yet another first post too!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Yes. We only read what the battery is capable of accepting not whether the hardware between the interface port and the battery is capable of handling that much power.
Would be a very useful feature though if possible.
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August 20th, 2009 at 8:58 am
First, thanks Lyle for giving us the production charger details. This is really important, and has been discussed relatively little.
As for the 240 volt 48 amp 45 minute charging possibility, yes we always knew the batteries could go that fast, but when you say “encourage infrastructure development”, I interpret this rolling blackouts. That’s the only way to get power companies to change things. And in this scenario, I’m worried that plug-in cars could get some negative press…
For these reasons, many plug-in experts are urging that people only plug in at night, when electrical usage is much lower. And if you only plug-in at night, then then there is no advantage to 240v charging, and the higher power draw would be worse for the grid. So it would be better to charge both at home and away from home using the 120v option.
How many 120v vehicle charge cords are provided with the Volt?
How much do they cost if you lose or break one?
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:03 am
I think the looks and the operablility of both chargers are done well. And I strongly agree with Lyle on the 240V – 48 Amp charging ability–GM needs to make the car as flexible as possible. It is E-Flex afterall–LOL!
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Not first generation, but I expect we will all have a charging plate on the floor of our garage, and wheel blocks to assure alignment, Just park it and when the time is right for the lowest cost juice, the car will recharge automatically. But that is down the road a tad.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Wow. Charging up your Volt in 45 minutes. THAT is something that will be very attractive to people. I bet a whole new sub-industry gets created in the next 10 years … upgrades of home electrical systems. THAT will create lots of jobs for electricians in the new “green economy” that’s coming in the next few years. The local colleges better start gearing up to train more of them.
I’m sure it’ll be fairly expensive to get the upgrade in your house at first but there still should be a good sized market of people with the money to do it. It will probably add value to your house if you ever sell it. Same thing for other household products like “Energy Star” water heaters, A/C heat pumps, etc. You might even see tax incentives and discounts. Who knows?
There will be plenty of people who want to make sure their pure electric car or E-REV gets fed ELECTRONS as often as possible instead of that crude, 20th century, old fashioned, polluting product we call gasoline.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:07 am
“It will be able to recharge the car fully in 6 hours at 12 amps or 8 hours at 8 amps.”
Does the user decide this and how? Via software?
Just curious.
Thanks
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Yes more watts are harder on the batteries so you’re doubtless right that in an effort to protect “The Diva” they’ve limited the amperage. However more amps would be more dangerous as well. Volts by themselves are not per se dangerous, which is why tasers can use such extremely high voltages without inflicting permanent harm.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Herm,
As much as the inductive pad seems like a great idea in theory, in practice they tend to be pretty inefficent.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:12 am
You pay the full 5$, for 1hr or for 8hrs, keeps the model simple for everyone.
Apparently public chargers will use the flat rate without respect to time in order to avoid the state prohibitions against “selling electricity”. (Once the government creates a monopoly it has to protect it).
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:13 am
I haven’t read the standard, but usually there is a ‘negotiation’ between the charger and the battery controller which defines the current flow.
It seems that it would be quite possible to build a ‘robust’ 48 amp charger that would do the job nicely.
I bet GM would even work with that company to ‘certify’ said charger.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Ok, second attempt to post this message. I hope I don’t cancel like before. lol
Altairnano is a company that produces a lithium-titanium oxide battery using nano technology. Their battery does not have the problem with thermal run-away that typical computer batteries have had. Additionally they work at extreme climate temperatures at both ends of the scale. They can be charged in under 15 minutes without the slow-down in charging that other lithium-ion batteries have. GM probably did not consider them as they are a relatively new company and do not have the capability to produce their cells in sufficient quantities that GM wiil need down the road. Phoenix Motorcar planned to use their batteries in a rather nice looking SUT and future SUV.
My point is that the technology is advancing quickly with all the research for better materials as result of investment in this industry.
As I have said before, over a short time GM will be able to upgrade the battery pack of the Volt and give owners greater AER.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Some of the same questions I was preparing to ask. I bet there are no answers to them at this time. Too early, I suppose, for GM to commit to a price and such. I certainly would want a charge cord/station in the Volt and one in my garage. I would not want to open the hatchback each night to take one out to plug it into the receptacle prior to plugging it into the Volt.
I also hope the Volt is designed with a storage area (lock down) for the cord and its equipment to be stored in the back of the Volt.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Questions for Gery Kissel.
I wonder if GM will be providing this charger equipment to apartment owners?
Will the tenant pay for kWh used? How will the cost be assessed? Does this equipment have the ability to talk to software to determine this? Or will a flat surcharge on all rents be needed to cover the added cost for those who use the Volt charger?
Is GM thinking this through?
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:17 am
I’ll go out on a limb and guess that the 120v comes with the car and the 220 will be extra.
I’ll get both.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:18 am
You’re right of course that a 1C charge is always considered normal, but 3C or 4C charges do put less stress on the battery. (Note that even a one hour charge for the Volt would still be 2C since only half the pack is used.) However, it’s the discharge rate which is the bigger issue for EVs.
More broadly, I can understand why the engineers decided to err of the side of caution on charging. The Volt after all has a very fast charge system — it’s called the genset!
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:19 am
It’s probably an option at purchase time! Standard would have the 110 v unit. There was an article awhile ago that told how long the cord is.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:24 am
I think the standards bodies should be allowed to do their work and the federal government should stay out of as much of the process as much as possible. It could play a role in moving things along — and perhaps intervene if there is too much squabbling — but private parties are better positioned to actually write the standards.
From what I’ve seen the standards are moving along fairly nicely so at this point things would best be left alone.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:26 am
My thinking exactly. Let the after-market handle it since it would installed in a physical location and not something you would probably want to carry around in the Volt. More suitable to quick charge stations at malls and such.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:27 am
I believe that thee last 10% of the charge must be done slowly for the batteries to equalize properly. So the charger must put less electricity in over the final charge period.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Tagamet says The could have really fast chargers at brothels too (g)
I notice everyone draws from their own personal experience ….
Actually that was very funny.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Thanks kdawg for saving me time looking at GM website.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:33 am
I’m sure it’ll be called a ’service charge’ for the use of the equipment and then they can charge the line rate for the juice.
Fair actually.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:36 am
I would expect the 120V equipment will be included, but you could opt for the 240V equipment instead. It will be like a lot of optional equipment, the dealer will have the faster charger available and will swap out the slower charger for the small sum of $???.??.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:38 am
LOL!
I give you that!
.. saying ‘first’ could get you lots of negative votes you know…
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Tag,
You meant to say “Well put, I think” didn’t you.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:45 am
I figure those new house based sodium-sulfur batteries will play into this as well. At ~$2k for 20kw you will be able to store a good amount of power at home.
I see having two of them, 1 for the Volt and one for the household requirements.
Stick a couple solar cells on the roof and a wind generator in the back yard and you have an ‘almost’ off grid operation.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:45 am
I would think that the 120V cord would come with the car, period.
If you wanted the 240V charger, or a second 120V cord, you’d buy that from the dealer.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:45 am
I agree there needs to be a “standard” set-up, but it can be done without the Feds being integral in the process. The auto companies, electrical industry and electrical suppliers know much better than the government what can and should be done. The Feds should act only if no industry action is being taken.
Herm, since you are a champion of inductive charging pads, how much would that type of equipment cost on the vehicle and on the pad versus what GM is introducing? Cost must be a consideration.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Muddy and Donc
Thanks. When I can’t laugh at myself, I’ll rollup my blanket and quit.
Noting that I had a “first” post, in the 13th thread should minimize the neg votes. If not, I’ll consider the source(s) (G).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Someone else may partner with that nationally recognized restaurant, but I would be surprised if GM did. Just my opinion.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Let’s not forget that the Volt’s pack has an active cooling loop (and will no doubt have an electric coolant pump and an electric fan on it’s radiator / heat exchangers). If the battery starts to heat during charge from any source, I’d expect this system to activate to protect it.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:51 am
I thought brothels were fast chargers already.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:54 am
This isn’t all bad news. A charger to handle higher voltages/currents would be a lot heavier and larger than the stock unit, and very few people would actually use it. Why condemn everyone to carry that extra weight around?
… so looks like there would have to access to the DC bus to get a quicker charge than 3 hours. The issue remains: will GM allow this access, and under what circumstances? This seems to get us back to the ‘quick charge’ scenarios where something automatic accesses the dangerous contact points from underneath the car.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:55 am
I bet the Volt comes with the 120v charger as part of the car.
As for negotiating charging rights in some apartment building, that really isn’t GM’s job is it?
If you are in this situation you will need to talk to your landlord to negotiate the terms. I’m sure most property management companies will see the advantages of the ‘green halo’ and will work with you.
My Volt will live in my garage happily plugged in at 220v.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:56 am
The chargers look very nice. Maybe too nice? I don’t want people walking away with such nice, shiny items. Can we use a “sleeper” cord that is ugly, covered with paint and can be used with the charge cover locked? Just a thought for Volt 2.0. I saw a few charging systems for European EVs and some had this locking cap (with a space for only the cord, not the plug). The public charging stations also had such a locking system. Anyone wanting to steal your cord would only end up with the wire sans plugs. Funny but not useful to the thief.
Other than that, Everything looks great and thank you GM for following the latest standard.
Can someone ask Gery about the communications capabilities? Perhaps what is GM’s game plan for connection to smart-grids?
I know this is a further out but was there any communication with Better Place so the Volt can be compatible with their coming charge points (Hawaii and California so far)? Probably not.
P.S. Nice touch for including the flashlight.
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August 20th, 2009 at 9:57 am
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html
nice get, Jackson(previous thread)!
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:00 am
I believe commercial units in public places will lead the way.
Unless something like this comes along:
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html
It may not matter what size the service in your home is if you can deliver the necessary charge from a separate in-home battery system.
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Welcome back, Tag; you were missed.
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Man, Altairnano? Wow, haven’t heard that name in a long time. Too much talk, not enough walk? Did they go out of business yet? Anybody got the 411 on them?
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Thank you (also posted here at #19).
The link is more relevant to this thread; if you store energy slowly at your house, you can theoretically release it at a higher rate to charge an EV quickly.
Perhaps someone could come up with an integrated charger / battery system just for this purpose.
You could also literally charge an EV using solar PV arrays on your house (instead of selling the energy to the utility during the day, and replacing it at night when you charge).
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Thread 13 is DEFINATELY the funniest so far today!
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:09 am
I know this isn’t directly related to charging, but I’ve read in other posts that the car & battery can be conditioned using plug power in very cold/hot weather to bring the cabin & battery closer to normal room temperature and avoid having to drain the battery to do the conditioning. Does anyone know if there will be some kind of remote control or remote signaling so a person could tell the car to start conditioning itself (say, from inside a house), without having to go to the car, open the door, and press some kind of button inside the car?
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Yep!
Solar powered Volts in a realistic fashion.
I like it!
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:18 am
That might just be a good question @ 2pm today…
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Okay math wizards! I need your help.
I’m working on a ‘Flash’ style calculator for our company’s website for the VOLT. I would like it to show the consumer actual savings: cost of gasoline vs cost of electricity.
The gasoline part is easy, but what is the best way to calculate cost of electricity? I want customer to be able to enter cost of electricity per unit (kWh ?) and then miles driven on daily commute and total miles driven per year. Then it will show cost per day, and cost per full charge, and cost average per year of electricity.
A little help with the proper formulas fir that and I’ll work on gitten’ ‘er done.
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:26 am
It seems to me that if the failure is due to a manufacturing defect then warranty would cover replacement.
If you run over the charger and break it you buy your own replacement.
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:33 am
That’s a really good article about Ceramatec’s new sodium-sulphur battery. What is amazing it the PRICE of this battery, its service life and its energy density. They need to get their battery on the market SOON.
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html
“Ceramatec says its new generation of battery would deliver a continuous flow of 5 kilowatts of electricity over four hours, with 3,650 daily discharge/recharge cycles over 10 years. With the batteries expected to sell in the neighborhood of $2,000, that translates to less than 3 cents per kilowatt hour over the battery’s life. Conventional power from the grid typically costs in the neighborhood of 8 cents per kilowatt hour.”
These kinds of batteries will be popular for Volt owners that live in areas that don’t get a lot of sunshine for their solar panels too. People could get their electricity from their solar panels when available OR get their electricity from the grid at night when the power companies start offering those cheaper rates (5 cents per kilowatt or whatever). The battery would get its juice at night off the grid (or solar panels during the day) and have the Volt charged up by 7 am for the new day of driving. If people come home from work at 5 pm with only 5 miles of electricity left, they could simply get a 45 minute “quick charge” from the sodium-sulphur battery and go out on the town for dinner or whatever.
This kind of battery would be very much NEEDED too in order to prevent people from overtaxing the grid by doing quick charges at the same time at say 5:30 pm after work. You can’t put a strain on the grid when you are getting your juice from your sodium-sulphur battery sitting in your garage. It’s like an “electron fuel tank”.
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:37 am
This is another example of GM engineering, a fact they do not seem to want to get accross to Joe sixpack, many GM vehicles have battery run down protection. I have tested this system by accident on three different occasions and it works great, but do they ever advertise this great feature NO NO NO, I cannot understand why not?????
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Paging Captain Jack; Captain Jack Sparrow, your presence is needed on gm-volt.com…
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:43 am
True with what you are saying if the current is very very low, but we are referring to the “Chevy Volt” here. One can get kill just as easily with 5 amps versus 20 amps at 240 volts. So it is the voltage that is dangerous. An example is with an arc welder. Current is very high and voltage is, at a safe level, below 30 volts and yet is safe..
Any voltage above 50 volts with the current equal to the Volt battery current drawing capacity would start getting dangerous.
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Can someone ask if there is going to be a lock on the power cord so no one walks off with it while i’m parked in a public garage.
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:50 am
A grid centered on the idea of distributed energy storage (either in your house, at the substation or where the electricity is made) would be a huge, revolutionary change. It would remove the need for spinning reserves, take away the limitations of alternative energy sources’ intermittency (and end-users’ intermittent usage patterns), and have the reserve to deal with sudden, unexpected demand; all with no increase in actual delivery capacity.
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August 20th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Did you notice that they listened to our suggestions for a coiled charging wire, and a visible charge indicator light in the Volt?
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:00 am
By zipcode perhaps? But the amount fluctuates and you’d have to differentiate between peak and off-peak and any discounts over a fixed amount.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:04 am
The big story here is G.M. will be setting the standard for charging electric cars if they are the firstest with the mostest. The G.M. (SAE J1772), standard could well become the charging standard for electric vehicles, making G.M. the lead authority on electric and partially electric vehicles. Assuming the SAE J1772 is flexible enough to allow for super fast charging of cars at roadside charging stations, it could go a long way to making electric vehicles marketable.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Yes storing energy from your PV arrays during what would be peak grid charges while you are away from home during the day . Take some off the top for whatever needs power 24/7 in the home and save the rest (if any) to supplement off-peak grid energy used while you are drawing greater power in the evenings.
Then PV arrays in parking lots at work places could reduce peak hour grid draws associated with daytime opportunistic charging of EVs
Love it..
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Good point but you can get away from that by saying it’s a recharging fee, making it a flat fee with no link to electric cost actually make this clear. And remember, this is the regulation in the USA but necessarely in other countries. I’m thinking global here
Many model can be apply here, either the building pay for the electricity, the parking company or a 3rd company that rent “space” in the parking.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Currently all I have is 110 in my Garage, BUT I will convert to 220 shortly after the first time I pulled my Volt into aforementioned garage.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:12 am
From the following statement…
“Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.”
We can derive the following with what we know.
We know there are approx 3 seperate packs of 96 cells at 3.5VDC that gives us the 336VDC pack voltage.
We also know that LiMn chem doesn’t ever like to charge more than 1C, same goes for LiFePO4. The statment above tells me that 48A/3=16A. This tells me that each 3.5VDC cell is 16AH and each sub pack of 96 cells = (96 * 3.5) * 16 = 5376KWh which equates to a complet (5376KWh * 3) = ~16.1KWh pack.
So now we know the following…
Cell Voltage: 3.5VDC
Cell AH Rating: ~16AH
Sub pack KW: ~5376W
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Be much simpler for me at access fee of $2/8hr plus the normal fee for occupying the spot. $5 is too much just for plugging in.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Thanks Jackson,
That is a great article for anyone who is a fan of electric cars and their potential. Very exciting game-changing technology with far reaching implications.
For those who have not read it yet, please take the time to do so.
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:13 am
There is one on the market that is 95% efficient, and is in the kw class. Thats not too bad for the convenience of automatic charging.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Me to. I am waiting for 1Bog.org to come to DC for my Solar System. I just love the Idea to not only not use Gasoline, but to use my own E-Juice.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Good point. GM has said the battery will be fully conditioned whenever it’s plugged in. Sometimes I forget about this since it’s unusual to have a liquid cooling system for batteries during the recharge cycle.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Really interesting link. A great read. I hope this gets kicked into high gear and people can get complete systems installed to create most of their own power needs. Thanks.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:19 am
LRGVProVolt,
The Volt’s battery pack will handle 220v w/48 amps, but the Volt’s battery charger will not. The battery charger is part of the car. The thing on the end of the cord is just a connection to the charger, not the charger itself.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Jackson,
LOL, let’s hope he replies in a “gentlemanly manner”
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Yes, that was noticed. I wonder what else they have “picked-up” from us.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Sorry things went THIS far off topic, but the laughs are all good. The 2 O’CLock chat should be interesting, but I’m seriously having a tough time coming up with an er, probing question.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:25 am
There’s always crack heads after the copper.
A nearby RV storage area was hit and they stripped the wiring and copper propane piping from a bunch of the RVs.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:28 am
If you really want to store you PV power and use it completely for home use even at night, I would just buy a bunch of LiFePO4 cells from http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP400AHA. 8 of these will store over 10KWh of power. 16 of these and you can almost go “Off Grid”. Of course you will need the auto tranfer switch. I thought about doing this when I had a Solar guy come out and give an estimate. I don’t like how the utility companies wont pay you for over producing. Bastards.
Did I also mention that you HAVE to stay connected to the utility company and still pay a “Connection fee”. WTF?
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Yes, I agree that $5 is too high a cost for just plugging in. At that cost you are approaching the cost of gasoline to go 40 miles. If the average cost to a homeowner is $.03 per mile, to go 40 miles is $1.20. A charge station’s price should not too greatly exceed that to make it cost effective for vehicle owners to want to plug-in rather than burn fuel to get home. Of course, full EV owners will not have the choice of burning fuel on the way home and would be willing to pay higher fees to plug-in. The fast charging stations envisioned by most of us would serve EV owners much more than EREV owners. IMO.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Maybe someone with more knowledge will chime in…
I’d suspect that the batteries are not being self equalized. I would think that they have active circuitry to maintain proper balance between the modules.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Hey Captain:
For my math question (#24 above) does that mean that the VOLT uses 16 KWH per full charge? I checked my electric bill. The highest cost per KWH shown is $0.17 — so (16 * 0.17= $2.72 per full charge) is that correct?
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Note that the thing we see in the picture at the top of this article is a fancy charge cable.. the true charger is internal to the Volt and can only handle about 3300 watts, 220v at 48amps is 10kw
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:33 am
I’ll miss the chat, so could some ask, what about Europe? will we have a 230v 13 amp (normal household) plug, or a stanalone charger thing?
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:35 am
GM addressed this by not even trying to charge above 80%.. this prolongs battery life…
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:37 am
A123 also can also routinely handle 4C charging, but GM did not select them either.
Unlike what everyone thinks, I dont think 30 minute charges are really needed.. and apparently GM agrees with me.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:39 am
what about if you drag the cord for 14 blocks behind your car?.. will the warranty cover it?
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Nope. It will by design only use 8KWh max. The other half is for allowance of cell degradation in performance. The unused 8KWh is just a buffer and theoretically not use till called upon during time.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Captain Jack probably has a ton of experience he could relate to us on this subject of brothels being fast chargers. Maybe even worth the cost, too.
This just proves that we will use any subject matter to get “off track” of the current topic. But, it is all good.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Does anyone know if they will have a waterproof unit?
I don’t have a garage, but I’d really like to be able to charge at 240V.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:48 am
its a mass production item, made in the millions.. used in most of the BEV sold in the US and maybe the world (speaking fictionally here).. and all identical. Both the receiving and transmitting antennas must be tuned identically or it wont work.. it must be made to an universal standard.. thus mass production.
I’m guessing $19.99 and its made in Vietnam, and most of the cost is in the raw materials used… perhaps the only universal component used in a car.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Tag
at Brothels?
At my age they would have to be really fas————NEVER MIND
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:52 am
GM is conforming to the standard SAE J1772. Its up to Better Place to do the same; not for GM to adapt to a a non-conformant Better Place idea. Especially since Better Place doesn’t exist yet, and so a non-comformant plug is not a de facto standard, already widely, in place.
As far as a 48 amp 220 charger, many national wiring codes, do NOT ALLOW a plug conection for anything exceeding 16-20 amps @220 v. They require a fixed connection instead. So all these codes would need to be changed, if possible at all, and that might take years.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:53 am
it depends what kind of wall socket you plug it in.. either a regular 110vac or a 220vac socket.. the Volt will automatically switch once you do so.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Gordon, this thing is just a charger cord.. the real charger is built internally in the Volt.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:58 am
old man
With that sense of humor, you’ll live to be a VERY old man.
See you at the chat.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Electricity is sold per kWh. Few people will know what their actual rate and this can be tricky. I think that the average rate across the US is $.10 so you could use this as the default, but it does vary and in some places there are special low rates for charging EVs.
You might want to give them a check box that would let them charge at work or during the day. Most likely a lot of people will have that opportunity.
Also note that the number of kWh per mile should be 25 or 4 miles per kWh. That’s different than the “up to 40 miles” range. The range is battery to wheels while the efficiency is plug to wheels, the latter accounting for charging losses.
From a marketing standpoint rather than looking at a cost comparison I’d go the Dave K route and just look at the amount of gas used. That is a little tricky because you have to let them define a “typical day” and you’d have to guess at the MPG in charge sustaining mode. But if you let them define their driving pattern you could give them a very good idea of how much gas they’d be using.
Also from a marketing standpoint I’d concentrate on the luxury drive of the car. Absent unusual circumstances this technology will not pay for itself in Gen I even with the government rebate, and going down the cost comparison route is a loser. You don’t sell Corvettes like this and there isn’t any reason to sell Volts like this either. There are plenty of people — mostly guys — who will buy Volts because of the tech, and they are not going to be seriously worried about the cost.
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August 20th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Its obvious that you don’t know how a standard is developed. Having done so, it goes as follows. Representatives from interested parties, join together to create a draft proposed standard. That is all voted on by committee members, usually representing their own firm’s viewpoint, or preferences. So I am sure that all the automakers were present and voting on the SAE J1772 plug, and so it isn’t a GM standard at all. It might even be a standard that GM opposed.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Neal,
Not to be a fuddy-duddy about this, but maybe they thought of it on their own. Having said that, we do have a lot of good ideas around here (some real clinkers, too)
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
MRR, you or anyone else can feel free to ask the question (and take credit for doing so!) I won’t be available at the time of the web presentation.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
lol…
Brothels, there’s a few close to Reno NV, been to them for a bachelor parties. Technically you can “Over Charge” your Volt there. Old Bridg, Wild Horse and Bunny to name a few. Wild horse had the best “Ambiance”, if ya kno what I mean….
You can go 0-60 in a drop of a G-String!!
And there are no TaTa Nano’s there either!
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Nice! Very nice. Post of the day.
I guess the remaining big “unknown” is that while we know the cells are connected in some form of serial and parallel we don’t know that configuration.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Hmmm, interesting.
I haven’t seen that one, have you got a link?
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
The battery may be able to handle it but might not like it. Or rather, the high charging current may deleteriously affect the battery lifetime.
That lifetime is being extended by extraordinary and heroic measures even now, to meet California rules. Otherwise you end up with a Nissan Leaf, whistling by the graveyard with a proposition that you have to replace a very expensive, multi thousand dollar battery in five years, in effect making the Leaf, a “dispose-a-car”.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Aw heck.. I say we take credit!
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
The car isn’t supposed to move with the plug in place so in that case you are at least in for repairs to the no-drive safety bits!
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
“Especially since Better Place doesn’t exist yet, and so a non-conformant plug is not a de facto standard, already widely, in place.”
You mean like Volts and Volt chargers? I think we can all agree that there is almost no charging infrastructure in the U.S. (at least any that is smart-grid compatible). Better Place does, however, already have over 6000 charge points installed in Israel. Yes, I know the U.S. is not Israel but they seem to be much further along (No Volt chargers installed yet). My concern is that the SAE J1772 standard is not forward thinking enough. That’s why there is a few billion dollars about to be granted for U.S. smart-grid research and development.
The more standardization the better, unless the standard is substandard.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Six HOURS ! That long time cuz.
EEStor won’t take near this long.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Yup, just a couple hours work to add it.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Doesn’t look very durable to me and my eyesight is very good, so good that my nickname is Eagle Eye.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Are you saying you would not want quick-charge capability if the price was the same? I would. Having reasonably priced EVs that could be quick-charged in around 5 minutes would allow the world to get off of oil for personal transportation. Not too shabby, eh?
We are still waiting for that great battery. Yes, they are getting better but current technology has more cost, less life, less energy density, less all-weather reliability, longer re-fill time, etc. When customers compare to the proven ICE, it’s going to be a tough sell.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
I believe that’ll be part of the menu functions on the center dashboard display. It’s been mentioned before that a charging schedule can be set there, so it seems only natural to have something like “charging rate” or “charging amperage” on there, too.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
That doesn’t really address the 6 vs 8 hours depending on the amperage available at the 110V plug, which is a separate issue from the 110V – 220V automatic switchover (first I’ve heard about this difference at 110V).
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Indeed, fascinating technology and a good article. Thanks for posting, man!
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
PBP may offer a plan that you can buy prepaid minutes to charge your Volt using their chargers and parking spaces.. they have stated that any electric car will be able to use their chargers.. but not how you would pay for it.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
You are completely right, lithium cells are not self equalizing.. unlike nimh or lead acid.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
From the article…
“The company calculates that the battery will cram 20 to 40 kilowatt hours of energy into a package about the size of a refrigerator, and operate below 90 degrees C.”
Size of a refrigerator? Maaaaan, if you bought 16 of these http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP400AHA you can have the size of 8 24 packs of MGD that has the capacity of 23.04KWh for $7K
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
The car end will mate in a rain-safe way. For the wall end, you might need something like this:
http://www.drillspot.com/products/300548/Intermatic_WP1220C_2G_Flexguard_Cover
Note: this example is “110v only,” since the 220v version is installed, not plugged in. Without a place to install it (e.g. garage), you might be out of luck on the 220v version.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
NOT WATERPROOF !
This will be extremely dangerous if used outside in the elements. (calling Seattle…)
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
“I don’t like how the utility companies wont pay you for over producing.”
This varies by location and company. I believe State law can require that the utility company buy back excess power from home alternate energy systems, though seldom at the price you would pay.
“I would just buy a bunch of LiFePO4 cells”
That is the kind of thing you would have to do at this moment. If the batteries in the linked article are developed, they’ll be a lot cheaper in the first place; and won’t compete for Lithium supplies with EVs in the second place (however much Lithium there is, it’s cost is certain to fluctuate as vehicle volumes increase).
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Very true. You can actually be killed by only a few milli-amps! So, you need sufficient voltage to create the current, and since the impedance of a human is fairly high (varies wildly, depending on things like perspiration, environment, path to travel,….). Thats why you can touch a 12V car battery and not even feel it, even though a car battery has 100’s of cranking amps available.
So, touching a 240V with 10 amps capacity or 1000 amps will not make any significant difference in the outcome. Your impedance will limit the current to significantly less then either capacity.
Now, you would have more danger in being injured by arcing, caused by a short to another object (Like the metal on you car, if car has a ground path). Then the short-circuit capacity determines just how much of an arc you generate. Typically high amperage circuits have higher short-circuit capacity, but not always.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Please disabuse yourself of the idea from the green nincompoops that Solar is pollution free. It generates enormous amounts of Thermal Pollution due to its abysmal inefficiency.
Even worse are climactic effects from the Albedo Reduction from the cumulative effect of the all the solar cells used worldwide. It makes CO2 Global Warming look like a kid’s pea shooter in comparison. You can demonstrate easily that the Global Warming effects are 10,000 times as bad as CO2, without any of the benign effects of CO2 free fertilization for the Plant Kingdom, that is greening the Planet.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
I bet a full twenty minutes of intense engineering went into these devices.
I believe i see a label, yes indeed, i do.
Fisher Price
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Looks like our Troll’s mom let him him sleep in today. Welcome back ye of the multiple personalities none of which are clever!
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Hammer not liking the color theme on those cords.
Hammer also need longer cord so you can’t touch this.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
With all the different (many probably great) suggestions here, if GM were to listen to you guys, the Volt would never arrive. Gradually an appropriate infrastructure will develop. Currently the most likely standard infrastructure is what already widely exists will be most useful for GM and that’s home owners with garages. For their use, over night recharge at 120V is the easiest and most convenient. I predict these people will be the most likely customers initially.
All you knowledgeable EE-s I like your contributions to these issues and I am learning a lot for your comments. Faster recharge down the line will make the 230 mpg projection obsolete; That number will be much higher.
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August 20th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Hammer you have too much time on your hands and should stop touching it so much.
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Can that cord reach the basement ?
Gotta go, I hear Mom coming down the stairs !
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Just make it turn off if unplugged. Put in another buck after re-plugging.
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
My name is Kdawg Slowski. So i would like my battery to take as long as possible to recharge.
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Gery Kissel: Good afternoon everyone. Gery Kissel here…
2:01 [Comment From Tagamet ]
Will the outlet need to be totally IN a garage, or simply “out of the weather”. I have an enclosed 220 outlet that’s totally enclosed against the weather (for a hot tub), but slightly outside our garage.
2:01 Gery Kissel: All of our EVSE equipment is made to withstand all weather conditions.
2:02 [Comment From ysfbuy ]
Top GM battery scientist revealed that battery won’t last long, why is that?
2:03 Gery Kissel: Not sure who you are referring to. Volt battery life is 10 years or 150,000 miles as a vehicle with an afterlife for other uses.
2:05 [Comment From Jackson ]
Under what circumstances would GM allow access to the Volt’s DC power system for an external charger able to supply (for example) 240V @ 48 amps? A 45 minute recharge could jump-start (sorry) public charging initiatives.
2:06 Gery Kissel: The current Volt does not accomodate offboard DC charging.
2:06 [Comment From Mark Bartosik ]
Does the unit that plugs into the receptacle communicate with the charger in the Volt (e.g. to indicate max current draw). And if so, is this using an industry standard protocol?
2:07 Gery Kissel: Yes, the EVSE does communicate with the Volt and will indicate max curent draw among information. It is J1772 compliant.
2:07 [Comment From MuddyRoverRob ]
I’m assuming the 220v charger will be an additional cost over the price of the car.
2:08 Gery Kissel: We haven’t priced either the 120 portable or 240 wall charger yet. One will come with the vehicle. Which one we have not decided yet. Could be user choice.
2:09 [Comment From RDP ]
How long will the portable charging cord be?
2:09 Gery Kissel: 20 feet.
2:10 [Comment From old man ]
Can a simple 220 volt plug in type cord be used rather than the one that needs to be hard wired?
2:11 Gery Kissel: The national electrical code says that fix mounted 240V EVSEs must be hard-wired.
2:12 [Comment From seaquake2 ]
Will the charge plug (end that goes into the volt) have some form of lock on it? So if I live in a development with no garage and have to charge it in my driveway some kid or someone can’t come up at night and unplug it out of spite?
2:12 Gery Kissel: We’re looking at that but nothing right now.
2:13 [Comment From Rick Hearn ]
Gery, in the past GM has stated the Volt charge rates would be 1.2 kW at 120V and 3.3 kW at 240 V. The wattages in your blog post are a little higher. Are the old wattages obsolete?
2:14 Gery Kissel: The earlier numbers are what the vehicle is set to do. The recent numbers are what the EVSEs are capable of, which are slightly higher than the vehicle.
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
And, it could be portable to give a ‘tank full’ to a dead EV.
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Someone beat me to it in the chat.
The 240V unit is weatherproof. Whoo Hoo!
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
I have believed for some time now that charging at higher than 240 v 16 amps would not be supported by GM simply because in the form most jurisdictions adopt the NEC it would not be legal to install residential circuits that charge at a higher rate.
I have never seen claims that a battery of 16 kWh would be harmed by a charge of as little as 240 v 48 amps.
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
You know, this whole “rolling backout” myth is just that. A myth.
By and large, the power grids of most states are designed with more than 10% margin. Even on hotest or coldest days. It would take a simply awesome number of plug-ins, all pluging in at one time to cause massive enough power draws to lead to rolling blackouts.
Consider 240 v * 48 amps. Thats only 11.5 kW.
State of California Electric System Today would have a -minimum- availble extra generator of ~2000 MW or 2,000,000 kW…. enough to serve 175,000 Volts! (Though in reality, ~100,000 Volts might be enough to cause the rolling backouts)
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html
And California in Summer in the Afternoon is one of the lowest margin states….
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
This is actually up in the air. GM has stated repeatly that the goal is 40 miles on 8 kWh. However, I wouldn’t blame them if they go to 9kWh to ensure 40 miles AER. But thats from the Battery. Most chargers are ~85-95% efficient at taking Wall Power to Battery Power. (the 220V one will likely be slightly more efficient than the 110V)
A good conservate estimate would be 10-11 kWh on your bill for a full charge.
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Automatic selection, I’ll bet the farm on it. Would GM want the liability of fires created by overheating from folks plugging their 110V cords into 240V outlets with a convenient adapter left by a previous tenant?
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
What was the problem with lithium-titanium oxide, was it lower energy density or shorter life span any one remember?
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Lol. EEStor again. I’m from Missouri. Ya gotta show me.
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August 20th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
From Lyle, “The Volt also has a small LED bulb on the top of the dash that flashes when the car is charging so you can tell from a distance.”
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
I’d just like to say again.
The Volt is expensive, but if you get the government rebate,
The price of a Volt will likely be between the Cost of a Loaded Civic/Corolla and a Loaded Camry/Accord V-6. Very similar to a loaded Camry/Accord I4.
Projected Fuel Cost for 150,000 Volt Mile –> ~6,000 dollars
Projected Fuel Cost for 150,000 Camry V6 Miles –> ~20,000 dollars
Projected Fuel Cost for 150,000 Camry I4 Miles –> ~17,000 dollars
Projected Fuel Cost for 150,000 Civic I4 Miles –> ~15,000 dollars
IE, I think it would be very worthwhile to show that the cost of the Volt, in the long term, is not that of a “Luxury” Car, but within that of a “typical family sedan”.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
The chat is done.
Be well,
Tagamet
NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
The Volt battery pack is designed to deliver 400A and probably take that much from regenerative braking. The problem is probably that the Volt internal charging circuit cannot handle that much current, regardless of how big the external charger is.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Very good info from the live chat. Was hoping we would get to the question several posters had on the role of the ICE in the charging system.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
This chat was really valuable.
I learned a lot.
Especially “reading between the lines”, about what specifically is and is not going to likely happen regarding charging.
Thank you Mr. Kissel.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Many very interesting questions were asked of Gery Kissel and I think he did a good job of answering them. I would like to be able to see all the questions that were asked along with the ones that were answered. Is it possible to do so? Maybe Lyle could publish those as a post and we could all read them and generate quite a bit of discussion. It would prove to be very interesting, I bet.
How about it, Lyle. The questions and answers are probably stored somewhere on the Cover It Live servers or on yours.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Sounds like the plugin/charging system will be very robust.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
That must’ve been an edit. It didn’t say “LED” when I first read it. I knew that must be what he meant.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
I believe when these were first announced that it was a “button”, but I am sure its software controlled somehow.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
“the system is designed so the car cannot drive when it is plugged in”
Good for them. I was wondering how soon it would be before my wife would try to drive off with the plug in. Now I won’t have to worry about that.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Well other than slipping and falling, probably not.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
I had to “tone-down” my question twice. But I understand why I needed to do so. The duplex outlet replacement question was originally related to aspects of charging that are not at all the responsibility of GM or the SAE standard. (It was about weak wiring (eg., aluminum) that might [gradually] run the load terminal going into an old/loose duplex plug socket too warm, but other comments addressed my same question very nicely, yet indirectly. But I am really glad to have all those facts now. Thanks again, Mr. Kissel.
(Got to get back out to work. Later all!!)
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
No, you only have to worry about her NOT plugging-in.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Sure it was, right, right, uh huh!!!
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Right you are, but they are saying it’ll be near $2k not $7k…
That’s a game changing price difference.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
You haven’t taken into account the time it will take to actually get a straight answer out of EEStor. Charge times could then approach infinity.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Well then she’d just run out of gas quicker I guess.
If she forgets both the vehicle remains safely in the garage or driveway.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Matt,
He said that it’s good for all weather conditions. You don’t even need a garage.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Bearclaw
He said not so far, but they are thinking about it.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
I tried several times for a “guess” as to when V2G might arrive, but no answers to those questions. (Shrug). On the whole there were some really good questions asked/answered. I’d have liked to see one from Statik, but none of them were more than 2 paragraphs (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
The chat was actually somewhat dull once the burning questions were answered…
q) Am I going to get an instant afro if it rains?
a) nope
q) How many bux?
a) not sure yet.
Good engineering doesn’t leave a lot to talk about!
Looks like good work from here Gery!
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Update post live-chat
Guess not!
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
From the chat it seems clear that GM isn’t saying “never” to the idea of an external charger to support higher charging rates (”not on this version of the Volt,” “No standard has been established”), but they’re not going to be the ones who push things beyond adoption of the SAE J1772 standard.
I expect public charging will appear in extremely limited quantities / locations, and be limited to 220V@16A, at most.
This gets us into another “chicken and egg” problem: No fast charging stations until there are enough electric cars / electric cars won’t support fast charging until there are enough stations.
This is the kind of standoff which has retarded vehicle electrification for at least 30 years: “No one wants to build an electric car until there are proper batteries / no one wants to develop proper batteries until there are electric cars.”
In order to keep history from repeating itself, I’d suggest that somebody blink. In this case, only allowing for the possibility might be sufficient. Maybe just include a dealer-removable panel for installing whatever direct-to-DC interface is eventually standardized.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Drop the racist hate. There is no room for that kind of thinking on this site. You may need to see a counselor ASAP.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Fear not Stas… I’ll plant a couple tree’s and water them with a pump run by the panels.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
I thought this was interesting from Endgadget (even if a bit dated)
————
The SAE J1772 Task Force-developed charging system, based on an initial design by supplier Yazaki, is now at Underwriters Labs for certification. That’s scheduled to be done by the end of May and, if all things go according to plan, it can be adopted for use in the next few months. Speaking to Autoblog Green, General Motors’ Gery Kissel listed his company, Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Tesla among those participating or supporting the standard. He also said the we-swear-it’s-coming-this-year Chevy Volt should be equipped with the new plug, and Tesla’s reportedly pledged to adopt it for current plans and retrofit its older models. Things are starting to look up for the EV industry.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
LOL, that’s why the charger is on board and will over ride / not allow charging when it senses dangerous divergence from safe practices, ie stupid stuff!!!
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Warning about quick charge boyfriends.
Run for the hills if she says her previous boyfriend was named BOB !
Believe me you cannot compete with the Battery Operated Boyfriend.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
I probably submitted 8-10 questions.. a few got answered.
One that did not was the one about leaving my car plugged for long periods of time. If its -20 in Michigan, and i’m going on a 2 week vacation to Hawaii, should i leave my car plugged in? Or will is suck tons of juice trying to keep the battery warm for 2 weeks? Would it be better to just plug it in when I returned home? Would any damage be done to my battery due to the cold weather? What role would the ICE engine play if it wasn’t plugged in?
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
I also asked about linear charging. if i get 100% in 3 hours, does that mean I’ll get 33% in 1 hour, or would it be more like 50%?
Edit: I guess this would apply more to charging at 120V, since at 240V the charger is limited to 3.3KW
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Per the chat, there’s a button on the plug one can use to select the lower amperage rate when not on a dedicated 110V circuit (as at another house you’re visiting). This probably just sets a flag for the on board charger to make the selection.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I just don’t see using the really expensive Volt battery to run my house.
It seems to be a false economy to me.
Now if these low temp sodium-sulfur batteries see the light of day I’m all in.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
I got my answer from the webchat:
Gery Kissel: The 8-amp charge rate is available in case you are plugged into a non-dedicated circuit. It is selected by push button on the cord set.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
I would like the option to buy the car w/out the GM charger, and possibly shop around for a 3rd party SAE J1772 compliant one.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Thanks Tag
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Amendment: According to Gery Kissel in the webchat (see replay above), the 8amp charge rate is selectable by button press on the charging adapter.
IMHO, this doesn’t inherently mean the Volt itself can’t be used to select the rate also, but it’s nice to know that at least it’ll be “so easy a caveman can do it” by having a button right on the charge cord. Otherwise I would foresee people regularly popping their breakers on nondedicated circuits, and getting frustrated because of it (although, c’mon people, just wire up a new breaker/outlet… it’s a 40k car… support it properly, eh?).
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Maybe that will be one of those exciting OnStar functions to stay tuned for.
Coming SOON! Holiday MODE
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Yes, the chat was a bit dry, but as you said, good engineering doesn’t leave much thrillin left to be done.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
I’m thinking that it’s a smart charger so plug it in and go get a tan.
There is a good chance it’ll run the genset to keep the battery pack topped up and warm if it isn’t.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Or just tax gas so that it becomes much cheaper to go electric.
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Muddy,
V2G isn’t all about running the house. It’s still a project in development, but could be profitable for people who end up with extra renewable energy.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Never a problem.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Where did you get that idea?
In the article, it states that the 120V system is totally waterproof.
I asked about the 240V system, and Gery answered that the 240V charger is also.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JESSE?!!!
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Oops, I think I’ve been calling V2G “P2P” by mistake for about a weeks’ worth of posts. Darn.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Those plugs look large and may take a Kung Fu grip to wrestle them into the correct orientation. But I think I can handle them. The petite old lady with a touch of arthritis might struggle.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Shop till you drop. I think Nissan will be having a sale in early 2010.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
You’ll be hard-pressed to find such for several years, I predict. The first cars to use them will have cords made by their respective manufacturers; but I wouldn’t expect an aftermarket source until there are at least half a million compliant cars on the road.
When you can find a generic SAE J1772 cord at Wal-Mart, we’ll have passed an extremely important cultural milestone.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
If you leave a Volt untended and unplugged in a closed garage, will the ICE being run (for maintenance or whatever) build up CO2 to poisonous levels?
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I think he meant 80% of the available range, not the whole battery pack.
I also recall hearing something of the kind; apparently there is some non-linearity even using half pack’s native capacity.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
J1172 allows for 15KW charging as specified, or 220VAC @ 70A, so just using the standard J1772 would allow for quicker charging without any modifications to the Volt. Just that somebody needs to build a J1172 PCS (Power Control Station) that can provide 70A, and I assume from this article that GM isn’t planning on providing that. Time for those old Avcon PCS manufacturers to get back into the the business (if any are left).
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Most places, one would go with the Volt, would not have enough capacity to charge enough cars simultaneously. The infrastructure for big transformers is not there, although the power companies can generate enough power,that does not solve the problem. The best way to handle this dilemma is by having more outlets with a lower voltage thus allowing more cars to be charged simultaneously. Most Volt drivers will not need a quick charge anyhow because most will not expend enough to warrant it.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
The government solution: drop a giant boulder on both sides of a standoff, and try to assemble something less efficient than either from the resultant floor sweepings.
A better gov’t intervention scheme would be helping to establish a standard for interfacing EVs with external chargers; preferably by just saying “do it.”
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
That’s true, you pay more for less in size but equal in power density.
Hmmmm….
Put some wheels on that refrigerator and a PWM and DC Warp 9 Motor and you’ve got a greater than 100 MPC fridge…..
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
I’ll do better, I’ll get a license to gro marryJowanna and plant an acre for “Medicinal” purposes and grow all year long. That’ll clear some carbon from the air.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Oh I absolutely agree with the concept, just not with using the Volts battery.
Use a cheaper storage method like sodium-sulfur (yes this has me excited!) and I’m completely onside.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
I agree.
Being employed at a “federal standards organization” , our primary job at standards meetings is to make sure they stay on course and hopefully on time, and to make sure that no one company can dominate the technical specs and gain an unfair advantage over another company not at the meetings.
It is clear that companies know more about what is needed in the marketplace. We just make sure the standards are not written too narrow as to include, for example, “proprietary materials or processes”.
It has happened before.
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August 20th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Hell will freeze over in the coming Ice Age (the one we have been delaying with all the CO2) before GM lets you hook up V2G, its their pocket where the warranty is coming from.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
There is no need for an electric car anymore!
The government is making fuel from sea water.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17632-how-to-turn-seawater-into-jet-fuel.html
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
You want to be sure you are buying quality cables. Therefore suggest you look into a good pair from Toyota, Honda, Ford or Nissan. All should be readily available well before the Volt hits the road in late Novemba’10.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
This is great news! I was hoping the Volt could be charged, as I’m running low on liquid cash these days. I’ll charge mine to Mastercard!
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Charging maxed out at 3.3kw , WTF.
When did Rapid Charging leave the table. This not good. I tell you not good from down under.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Juts tell the wife you’ll take care of the plug in duties.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Like you can get a straight answer out of GM? What’s the MPG in gen mode?
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Wow.
It started sounding too good and my eyes glazed over. I’ll have to read that one again after a nap and a fresh cup of coffee.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Price still holding around $340/kwh . . . . nice.
/ with all this mandatory j1772 stuff being thrown around, home built may be the best way to go if you want to stay out from under “the man”.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Same old GM.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Cords are for fools. Drop the Cord.
This is reVolting, Cordless charging is here already.
I charge my Pre without a Cord.
Protest this now all you Volt Tetherheads.
It’s time to officially launch the Lose The Leash campaign.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
I don’t really care if it is not efficient , plugging in all the time sucks . I just want to come home and go into the house and relax and have my supper .
I want inductive charging run by a timer that does it all automatically . I just want to use my car , not become a slave to plugging the darned thing in every time I come home , to hell with that idea .
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
You can get a Camry SE V6 OTD for $26K with zero % financing. Even with the rebate the Volt OTD would be $35.5K. So you have to make back roughly $10K.
Not so easy to ever make this back. If all your electricity were free and you never used any gas in the Volt it would take you over six years to make up the difference, and while you did this you’d also have to be making back the cost of money, which, depending on your rate could well double that difference. Your figures more or less show this. (150K miles probably takes 13-15 years since cars as they age and have more miles on them are driven fewer miles per year). Most people want a paybacks in 6 months, maybe 18 months. Fifteen or even ten years is too long a time horizon.
Plus the Camry is a much larger car than the Volt. If you used the Corolla for sure you will never be able to make the difference back.
Volts won’t be price competitive until Gen II with the rebates still in place or in phase out mode. That would be the sweet spot from a price perspective.
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
BTW, my house is rigged for a LOT more than 3.3kw. You should SEE those breaker boxes!
OOOOHHHHH oh oh oh oh o ho h h oh oh!
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August 20th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
One thing I hope GM or some third party company does is make the charging cord fairly long and RETRACTABLE like you see on vacuum cleaners.
GM should work with 3rd party companies that make high quality charging accessories. Maybe by 2012 or so, there will be a bunch of things you could buy to make plugging in your Volt at night just a little easier. Face it, a lot of people might be forgetful about plugging it in (like with their cell phones) or just plain too lazy … if it means untangling an aggravating extension cord or whatever.
Maybe by 2013, there will be WIRELESS charging systems available. That’s the ultimate in convenience. Just pull into the garage and a light comes on the dash of your Volt saying “set to charge” or “charging now” or whatever.
Til then, I hope there will be high quality, durable, “user friendly” charging cords that you can retract. Maybe by 2011, you’ll be able to quick charge your lithium ion battery weed eater with the same retractable cord system. Maybe your electric lawn mower too. I see a bright future for charging systems in the next 10 years that’s for sure.
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
However, I wouldn’t blame them if they go to 9kWh to ensure 40 miles AER. But thats from the Battery. Most chargers are ~85-95% efficient at taking Wall Power to Battery Power. (the 220V one will likely be slightly more efficient than the 110V)
The “up to 40 mile” range, or 8 kWh for 40 miles, is as you’re suggesting battery to wheels not plug to wheels. For plug to wheels, we know that the City cycle will use 25 kWh / 100 miles. Given that the ranges for the City and Highway cycles are the same and that the chargers are the same, you’d expect the Highway cycle to also use 25 kWh / 100 miles.
So 4 miles per kWh. The Utility Factor (UF) for a 40 mile EV range is roughly 62%.
Slide 25, http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
No offense, but just because its a “standard”, doesn’t mean it will be become standard in the marketplace.
GM has commited (apparently) to adopting the SAE J1772 plug as thier standard plug. Which may lead it to be the standard plug in the market car makers must use. However, SAE doesn’t determine this…. the marketplace, often set by the first mover, does….
Which is a fancy way of saying, you misinterperted the intent of his post and the meaning of “standard”.
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
RB: “Some days will be sunny, but surely not all.”
Except if you live in sunny Los Angeles.
Although I might be able to handle a bit of rain if it meant living in a non-bankrupt state…
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Agreed. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here with Gen I. We have a bit of time in the next few years to figure all this out (especially by seeing what works and what doesn’t in practice).
PS. I saw “Tagamet” in the pharmacy yesterday…clever name.
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
There’s going to be a bunch of technologies coming down the pike in the next 10 years as far as charging goes. Smart charging that integrates with the smart grid via GM’s OnStar system, etc.
http://bioage.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4fbe53ef0120a5045aa8970b-popup
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/bellino-20090819.html#more
Allowing your Volt’s battery to interact with the smart grid and give it some juice when its needed might drop your electricity bill a good bit. Then you might be driving your Volt for 1 cent per mile instead of 3 cents per mile. Driving today’s old fashioned, 20th century, loud, polluting, internal combustion engine cars costs you maybe 15+ cents per mile. I’d much prefer to pay $4 in electricity for a 400 mile road trip vs. $60 in gasoline for a 400 mile trip. Who wouldn’t ?
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
A worldwide standard, or at least a set of broad geographical standards, seems like it might be a wise option before plug-ins proliferate and we have a haphazard cell phone charger-esque mess on our hands.
PS. Jealous of you getting to charge your EREV (Ampera?) with 240 volts and an 80% nuclear power mix. At least presumably, judging by your name.
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Hmmm. I just saw kind of a related thing over at greencarcongress about how GM envisions interacting with the “smart grid”:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/bellino-20090819.html#more
Frankly, I don’t want all my smart systems in my home making their own decisions about how to interface with the grid (or worse, having the power company make those decisions for me).
I want all my devices to coordinate locally with each other based on choices that I make.
I’m working hard to create and coordinate my own smart systems in my house (Just added the furnace onto the network to join the weather station and solar system
For example, when the power grid goes down during the day and I’m producing more power than I can put into the house batteries or use, I would want to go ahead and charge the car using my otherwise wasted power.
My local control system can sense that condition and make that decision but the corporate grid control system can’t make the right choices for me.
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
ccombs,
Yes, the darn drug company stole my “handle”. I may have to change it to cimetidine. That doesn’t quite roll off the tongue as easily as Tagamet though. I’ve used Tagamet for *decades*. Literally.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Toshiba has its own Altair-nano type batteries. I believe they have finally started making them–initially for use in electric bikes. The energy density isn’t there yet. It would still be great for low-mileage EV conersions compared to lead and the lifecycles should beat LiFePO and Lithium Manganese. So there is still promise there. It just hasn’t been in the news lately.
It’s a pretty pricey bike.
http://www.harborcountrybike.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ST9TAILWIND&click=2
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August 20th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I’d hope that they didn’t cut a deal with a specific company, because that’d hinder universal acceptance. Wouldn’t it?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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