AND 
Volt Runs Without Gas Though Needs it Occasionally, Can’t Run Without Battery
Since the Volt is at its core and electric car, people often ask whether it will be able to run without any gas in its tank.
According to Volt vehicle line engineer Tony Posawatz, “the VOLT can run without gas since it is an EV.”
Here’s how he explains it:
We will provide many tips to customers on how they can get the most out of their VOLT as we continue the education process, work our demo programs and train our dealers and customers at the point of sale. For example, we will recommend that they keep some gas in their tank to avoid range anxiety and if they are always driving in EV, we want to make sure that once every month or so, we can perform a maintenance run on the engine (for keeping the engine parts lubricated and the gas from getting stale).
This will be done automatically for the customer because of the intelligence built right into the car. We don’t want to have the customers worry about putting additive in their gas tanks like snowmobilers and boaters have to. If the customer runs primarily in EV mode, we would also suggest that they not keep their tank full. That’s a lot of extra mass to carry around. Prior to a long trip is the right time to gas up at one of our countries 170,000 gas stations.
As to whether the car can run without its battery he says “the VOLT can run with an injured battery but not without a battery in the car.”
Finally Posawatz declares “the VOLT is a very smart car, it will be the smartest device on the smart grid of the future.”
August 19th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Lyle
I really like the photo. Even with the skin off it shows that the engineers have an eye for detail. And dang, that battery is well protected, about as centered in the car as could be.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:04 am
That point should be driven home.. first of all the Volt is an electric car.
some other news:
Coda lowers the price, $32k after the fed tax credit.. uses a 33.7kwh battery
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/18/ev-club-members-get-first-rides-in-coda-automotive-electric-seda/
See this thread in the forums for a possible range extender using urea :
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3248
Off I go to flush the stupid radiator in my truck, had to replace my water pump.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:07 am
All of that info makes sense and is what we would expect.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Do we know what the drive train details are? Front , rear, one motor with differential, 2 motors (one on each wheel) etc??
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Very high tech stuff in that photo above. Is it any wonder the first Volts will cost 40 grand?
This is a whole new world of driving being invented. The Volt will get unbelievable (for many) mileage, will be silent, will accelerate like the devil, and will move the whole driving experience up several notches.
I believe GM is creating an entirely new era of motoring for the world.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:14 am
I think one major point needs to be driven home. LEAF and other pure EV companies keep “knocking” the volt because it is not pure EV. I would simply ask them. If nissan built a 100m pure EV and a EREV with a 100m AER which do they think would be “better”?. they keep claiming that the LEAF is better than the Volt because it uses no gas, but thats simply because it doesn’t have the optino to use gas. This car is such a game changer, i just hope that GM is able to sell the benefits to the consumer.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Though i’d post here so a few will see it:
MPGs on Genset. Presumption, 35% efficient ICE, 95% efficient genset (if anyone can find data on the 1.4 engine or the genset that would be great), 36.6kwh in a gallon(US) of gasoline. Precalculated power requirements (8.5kw gets 40miles at 40mph, scales up to 53KW at 100mph [when squaring the speed], which we know is vehicle max speed and genset max output, so happy they are close) for the Volt:
30mph = 4.8KW = 76.4MPG
40mph = 8.5KW = 57.3MPG
50mph = 13.3KW = 45.8MPG
60mph = 19.1KW = 38.2MPG
70mph = 26KW = 33.7MPG
80mph = 34KW = 28.6MPG
90mph = 43KW = 25.5MPG
100mph = 53.1KW = 22.9MPG
So not great news. but, maybe there will be a nice suprise about the efficiency of the 1.4…
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:17 am
One 110 kW motor, front wheel drive.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:18 am
The article’s comment about the Volt being the “smartest device” may be in response to this article about Ford:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/ford-charging-20090818.html#more
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Yes we do and welcome to the site, you have to be new to ask this question
Front wheel
1 Electric Motor and 1 Generator (only one option for the moment: gas)
No in-wheel motors.
As for the differential, I don’t think you will need one since it’s an electric motor.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:23 am
we want to make sure that once every month or so, we can perform a maintenance run on the engine (for keeping the engine parts lubricated and the gas from getting stale).
Well that seems dumb to me. If there’s no gas it can’t get state. In order to keep the ICE lubed they only need to spin the generator and run the oil pump for 10-20 seconds each time the car gets plugged in.
KISS GM.
NO Plug, NO sale.
/I’m prepared to take that glider off your hands GM, for a discount, off course.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:25 am
For sure, you would have to feel pretty safe sitting in the rear.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:25 am
Living in an area of the US that gets snow, some type of limited slip differential is a plus. I keep hoping that the manufacturers will put a motor at each wheel. If one slips, reduce the poer to that wheel. Want 4WD, add 2 more motors.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:25 am
Nice approach, thanks for the perspective. I believe I recall where the Volt’s power consumption @ 60 MPH is around 21 kW, so your effort appears to be slightly optimistic, but certainly in the ballpark.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:26 am
You are not alone in this line of thinking.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:35 am
I like this view of the Volt too ….and it raises a question or two in my mind.*
And regarding the comment in the intro above, “the VOLT can run with an injured battery but not without a battery in the car”, my thoughts are…..
1) Obviously, the battery is needed to spin up/start the ICE & to provide continuous ignition to it
2) The battery (& the wiring to it) should be sufficiently robust —as well as redundant internally— that it doesn’t constitute a credible single-point failure
3) Therefore, even if the battery were severely injured, the Volt’s ICE/GEN should be able to operate normally, allowing continuous safe driving
* Why is that steel platform between the rear wheels so high ?
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:43 am
I read the next sentence to mean the engine running is part of the software and will not require a visit to the dealer.
I don’t know how it will be handled by those who have NO gas in the tank but do think your idea is a good one that could be incorporated into the software by reading the how much is in the tank. I would expect a warning bell or flashy thing to alert you to this problem. even tho you do this on purpose.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:44 am
I would like to share your excitement, but I believe the real new era of automotive belongs to BEV, or more specifically to pure EVs. I see the E-REV VOLT approach as a very promising transition between full ICE and full BEV, and I’m already convinced it will globally fulfill it’s aims.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:45 am
I agree with you. Spinning the Motor should lube everything. I see myself keeping a couple of Gallons in it for emergency’s, but hope to not use it.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:49 am
I agree with you. I wonder if it will be batterys with many miles and rapid charge or will it be batterys with few miles but induction charging from the highway?
Right now E-REV is the way for most of us to go EV.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:51 am
That photo shows just how revolutionary the design is. Other than the four wheels and the steering wheel, little else looks familiar. I expect this vehicle will quickly catch the Prius in sales, even at a price premium.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Yeah, obviously there must remain some functionality in the battery to get the genset started.. its the only way to get it and the car going.
Apparently there is some ability (parallel internal connections) in the battery to bypass bad modules, or perhaps what they do is severely curtail performance when they detect an overtemperature condition or out of spec voltage in one of the modules.. the second is probably the most likely way to do it.
The battery acts like a buffer for the genset.. can the car move with no buffer at all?.. probably so but with much lower acceleration.
Make no mistake, the battery can be a single point failure node… I think GM understands reliable wiring very well.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:53 am
The hold ups on wheel motors are two fold.
Weight and cost.
Welcome to the scrum!
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:54 am
I see myself hitting the pump about once every 6 months, maybe….GREAT!
I just wish they would hit the road early and in large enough supply to guarantee me the chance to get one!
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Why is that steel platform between the rear wheels so high?
Not sure. BUT I have a guess. With the gas cap moved to the other side, I wonder if the tank is under there.
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August 19th, 2009 at 8:55 am
The photo brings to mind some of the conceptual art and engineering around the Fuel Cell solution. The concpet was that everything you need to drive and control the car was contained in a module that would be the base plaform for whatever body style you want to put on top — almost like my son’s RC cars with interchangeable bodies on top of the electic motor/tires.
I thought at the time that there would be no way to get to that level of modularity, the engineering that has gone into the Volt has laid the groundwork for just such a concept.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:05 am
You and I are on the same page. I will nearly use no gas except when on holiday. 3-4 times a year. I look foreword to forgetting which side of the car the gas cap is on!!!
Trouble is I need the Volt asap in order to start forgetting where that money hole is.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:07 am
There is a differential since they only use one motor to drive both wheels.
The Volt reuses the case of the FWD Mode-2 hybrid transaxle, it contains the two motor/generators along with the differential gearing and probably some step down gearing. The Volt transaxle is bolted to the 1.4l 4 cylinder engine like all front wheel drive car presently do.
The first motor/generator is 112wk or 150hp, likely nominal efficiency of 95%, average efficiency of 90%.. this motor/generator drives the wheels and also recovers brake energy (and stops the car) when it acts like a generator.
The second motor/generator is connected directly to the engine, it is 50kw or 67hp… its main function is to generate electricity, its second function is to act like a motor and start the engine. There is no mechanical, gear or clutch connection between the two motors.. the second motor and the engine could be completely removed and the Volt would still work fine.
The Volt will use normal FWD driveshafts and CV joint boots.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Dang! That’s beautiful. Anybody have the urge to strip off the Volt sheet metal and weld up a very light steel tube body? I wonder what the weight of the chassis in the picture is. Imagine the improved performance if you just bolted on a seat.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Lawrence my friend, until somebody builds a battery that can power a car at -40c for at least 50 miles with the heater blowing hard the BEV stays as no more than a niche vehicle.
EREV works with todays technology and can be the primary family car.
A BEV cannot be and will not be for forseeable future…
Please understand that I get that if those unicorn powered magic ultra capacitors ever appear the game could change.
I’m not holding my breath on that one.
Hmmm, this is one of those I’m likely to get negative votes for my comment moments isn’t it?
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Can the Volt run without a battery? Who would ask such a question?
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:15 am
I will absolutely use the genset at least weekly, there is NO WAY I’d by an electric car without it.
My gas tank will be at least half at all times.
(When it comes to gas, particularly in the winter; a fuel tank is half empty.)
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:18 am
The Volt Atom eh?
http://www.arielatom.com/
Quite the thing!
not great in the rain though..
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:20 am
WHOA!!! Did anyone else notice the last sentence of the Posawatz quote? He specifically mentioned “smart grid”
I asked a question about that functionality in the last Q&A, but it unfortunately didn’t get pushed on by the moderator. Is this a confirmation of planned Vehicle to Grid or grid-interactive (load leveling / time of use) charging technology?
Lyle – Please get us more info on this!
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:22 am
You had to start up yesterdays subject all over again
The electrical path in charge sustaining mode is 4 steps long, probably each step is 95% efficient.. thus electrical path efficiency is 81%… but these are best guesses, almost nothing is known of what is GM is using.
BTW, the previous generation of the Prius had a electrical path efficiency of 70%.. but it was only two steps.. battery-inverter-motor.. the new generation has improved that efficiency by increasing the working voltage to 500vdc. The Prius has no charge sustaining mode and does not use the electrical path (mostly) at highway speeds.
36% efficiency for the engine is wildly optimistic dont you think?
The Tesla Roadster has similar power requirements at high speed as the Volt, from their charts we can see it requires 15kw to run at a constant 60mph on level ground.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:23 am
…..I wonder if the tank is under there.
I’m sure it is —and the height of that rear platform leaves plenty of room for a full-size spare AND at least a 15-gal tank —maybe GM will surprise us with an extended range in CS mode!
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:25 am
For the ICE to remain reliable it will have to be run at least once a month. Mechanical devices degrade over time and a monthly run check will be prudent. It is not realistic to think you could put gas in the vehicle once a year and have the ICE be reliable. If you want an EV don’t purchase an EREV.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:27 am
So, is there an “Official” wait list yet?
One where, if I sign up, GM will send me their “education process” newsletter? Weekly? Monthly?
The only one on the ball here is Lyle.
And General, it’s not too early to send a small POS piece to the dealers on the approved list.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:29 am
they probably will also spin up the fuel pump to stir up the gas in the lines and tank.. the injector valves may stick if not operated periodically I think, not sure about that. Definetely a good idea to only use “Top Tier” gasoline in the Volt.
http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html
There will be lots and lots of people that will not need the gas engine for months, perhaps years at a time.. thus GM has to address this issue. Normally its not a good idea to let an ICE sit idle for a long time.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:30 am
I assumed that statement was in response to someone who asked what happens if the battery pack were to completely fail.
This makes the Volt better than current cars in this fashion, you will have a hard time limping a conventional car home with a broken transmisson. I’ve had a car ‘lose’ a gear in the transmission and it was nearly undrivable. The Volt with a ‘wounded’ battery would run the genset and drive normally.
Either of these failures were they complete would mean a ride on a tow truck in most cases. Dead Trans or Dead battery.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Nah Muddy…you got it right….EREV will indeed be a transition to BEV but the amount of time it will take (sans the aforementioned unicorn-magic capacitors) to complete the transition to full BEV on a massive scale will in this poster’s opinion be significant….dare I say decades…and I just did.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:32 am
That’s where the T part of the battery is.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:35 am
According to earlier posts from Lyle, there is also a backup 12V battery to allow you to jump other cars. I presume this could also be used to jump the gen of the Volt itself if the main battery were critically low or damaged.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:39 am
I got to stare at this ‘de-robed’ Volt at the NY auto show earlier this year and it is pretty darn cool….in fact as someone who isnt all together giddy about the production design of this car, I spent *way* more time in front of the guts than the fully clothed version that was spinning around on its turnstile.
I thought alot about what you say here…then I walked over to the Converj and felt more satisifed
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:41 am
…Smartest device on the Grid…
That remains to be seen. Brash statement that may come back to haunt this doofus. I would bet that Ford electrics will be connected to the Grid first and will be every bit as smart (prolly smarter) than the Volt.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Interesting price drop on the Coda. As the first EV to be reasonably priced it should find at least some interested parties. The 32 kWh pack is also generous — you can actually believe the car will get the claimed 100 mile range. (As opposed to say Nissan with a 24 kWh pack or the iMiev with a 16 kWh pack — the pixie dust contenders).
Too bad the shell is so plain. Maybe for Gen II they can spruce it up. Or perhaps they can hook up with Tesla and get the Model S body. The Model S is a sweet design that gives you a ton of space.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Brash statement which may come back to haunt scooter.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Not just weight, but “unsprung weight,” I think was the issue.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am
—
the VOLT is a very smart car, it will be the smartest device on the smart grid of the future
—
Thats a stupid statement for GM to make. As smart grid matures it is quite obvious that even the dumbest car in the future will be smarter than Volt.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:50 am
The Volt’s 12V battery is used only for accessories like power windows, A/C, power steering & the audio system. It apparently wasn’t practical to use it as a backup starting battery.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:53 am
On the subject of needing to operate the ICE once a month… first the electric motor could rotate the engine with valves open and gas off to lub everything periodically, and with the sealed gas tank (of secret size
) the gas will not go stale for months.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:54 am
My bad.
I stand corrected!
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Can someone remind me – how Volt works in CS mode ?
Does the genset charge the battery from which the motor will draw power – or does the genset directly power the motor …
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:56 am
It might be a brash statement, but that doesn’t make Tony Posawatz a doofus. Name calling not necessary here.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Great argumentation, go on
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:57 am
What happens if you can buy a gallon of biofuel for $1.00? I can get this now if I’m willing to spend $9K for the machine that turns the solid pellets made from brewery waste into E100, and there are so many possibilities that it’s hard to imagine that one or more of them won’t work out quite well. This is one reason I really like the fact that the Volt is Flex capable — best of all worlds. And it’s the reason I’m sorry that Chen’s proposal to force all cars to be Flex capable got shot down so quickly. Five hundred bucks a car is a small price to pay for having a vehicle fleet that can run sans petroleum. Isn’t the Boy Scout motto “Be Prepared”?
Don’t get me wrong. EVs are great fun and charging off the grid is very cost effective. But biofuels are definitely coming in the near future — in some ways they are already here — and liquid fuel has so much going for it that my guess is we’re never going to see the end of “gas” stations. They may not be selling gas but they’ll be there dispensing liquid energy.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:57 am
No, the “T” of the battery has to be under the arched cover just ahead of this high platform.
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August 19th, 2009 at 9:58 am
The Calgary auto show is pretty backwater as these things go.
No Volts in sight last year.
With the rollout coming next fall I’m hoping to see one next spring.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:01 am
“36% efficiency for the engine is wildly optimistic dont you think?”
Not really. I found this paper examining the gen 1 prius, and it’s tested at ~37%. For GM to be equal to this is a reasonable expectation, to beat it (even by a couple of percents) will be very nice indeed.
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/2.pdf
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:02 am
crap, comment was aimed as a response for a troll post, which I can’t find anymore and not a new topic. sry.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:05 am
maybe GM will surprise us with an extended range in CS mode!
Since they seem worried about customers having too much gas in the tank, I wouldn’t hold out too much hope on this one. I think I read somewhere (autobloggreen?) that it would have an 8-10 gallon tank.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:07 am
There is no direct power link between the genset and the electric motor. The genset is only there to keep the battery at a sustained level of charge (and not recharging back to full) after it’s “customer” depletion (which might be initially at 30% SOC).
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:07 am
It would look just like our 1917 Chevy Speedster. Which finished 11th in its race at the Monterey Historic Automobile Races last weekend, I might modestly add.
The basic principles never change:
Keep It Simple Stupid
Simplicate and add lightness
What ain’t there don’t give you no trouble.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:09 am
PS: We also got to see the Fisker do a few hot laps around Laguna Seca. Nice looking car, and the Ecotec engine sounded pretty good too. Out of my price range, but still pretty impressive. And I haven’t been a Fisker booster, by any means.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:10 am
I believe it is better to simply let the genset start and heat up properly for a couple of minutes. Simply moving parts is not enough, especially during cold winter. Additionally, you have to ensure the engine will likely to turn on properly when you are in the real need of it.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:14 am
+1. Well done. Carry on.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:15 am
I love that picture too!
When I look at it, the part I wonder is why they don’t do rear wheel drive?
Front wheel drive is done for simplicity and weight. No drive line with it’s resulting hump, no energy wasting right angle gear. But front wheel drive stinks from a handling perspective.
But if the car is all electric drive, they could do rear wheel drive with only the extra weight of 8 feet of cable. Plus a straight drive axle would be simpler with no CV joints.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:15 am
I had the same thought. The famous “skateboard” comes to life. Who would’a thought?
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:17 am
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC
I have been thinking about the test fleet and said drivers. Once GM is satisfied with the reliability of the Volt and puts them in the hands of a select few my idea may be of value.
The test driver would drive from one large Chevy dealer to the next and at each stop the dealer would have contacted potential buyers of the cars arrival. Dealer might say “ride in the Volt in extended range from 10:00AM till 11:00AM or ride in the Volt in EV range 3:00PM till 4:00PM. Questions will be taken between showings”. The driver has a satalite phone to make contact with GM engineering for the more teck type questions.
This would get people in the show room and possibly result in some sales of standard type vehicles.
DISCLAIMER:
The fact that I am a retired Machine Tool sales person who is comfortable talking to large groups made up of technical and nontechnical people does not mean I am trying to stack the deck in my favor.
SMILE
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Frankly I don’t understand the BEV fans coming to this website.
We’re here because we’re fans of the EREV. I want to own one, and wish I could now instead of 14 months from now.
There are plenty of BEV fan websites out there. Perhaps those would suit you better.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:21 am
My Cavalier just broke, so I know what you mean with money hole. I am driving the Wife’s car and she is driving our CUV (Vacation Car). So I am trying to hold on for the Volt. GM hurry up please
.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Michael:
Thank you. Plus I’m pretty confident that Mr. Posawatz is right. That’s a pretty impressive piece of hardware in the photo, in any case.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Amen. That’s the most important question of all, IMHO.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:24 am
That only works if you can totally purge the fuel system.
A tiny little bit of gas would be even worse than a few gallons because what little is left behind would lose the volatile components. If you don’t use it much, put a gallon in there and add Stabil. It will keep the gas fresh for at least a year.
The sealed system should help a lot with keeping it fresh. I wish all cars went with totally sealed instead of using the evap system so many do.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:25 am
“interchangeable bodies on top of the electric motor / tires.”
That would be a great idea for GM. They called it the “skateboard.”
I’d like to see GM put the Volt’s engineering into a GMC 1 ton pickup. Even if they could only give it a 25 mile AER it would revolutionize the work truck industry.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Hey I would stack it in my favor. What ever it takes to get my VOLT
.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:28 am
You could actually get away with just two motors with differentials. You could do four but you could get 4WD with traction control without having the added expense of four motors. If you could get the controller and motor costs down sufficiently you could probably do it for the same cost of two motors the differentials, but currently I think it would add quite a bit to the cost.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:31 am
To keep the independant rear suspension you still need CV joints.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:32 am
I doubt we’ll see vehicle to grid from a EV / EREV anytime soon.
The batteries are the most expensive part of operating the vehicle, and unless the power company is willing to pay a MASSIVE price for the power, you’d be a fool to give them any power back.
What I would expect to see is time of use control of the charger. The infrastructure is already in place with many utilities for other reasons.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Some people don’t want or need the option to use gas. We are all heading for BEVs in the future, that is clear. Some are ready to jump straight to that, while others want to ease into it with a transitional car like the Volt. There is nothing wrong with the Leaf, Tesla, or Volt. Its just personal preference.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Sorry about the minus. It was suppose to have been a plus. Sometimes my humor is taken poorly and I was glad you got it.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:36 am
I agree partially. Using biofuels (without regarding how it has been produced) in 35% energy efficient ICE is a bit disturbing. Alternative liquid fuels are very promising for now. But these are like battles are for wars.
Everything is, imho, about talking energy efficiency. From how you collect it, how you do store it, and how you do transform it. And I see electrification in automotive industry as the best candidate.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:36 am
It’s OK. For us old men those buttons are a little small
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:37 am
He hasn’t seen the Tesla S yet. Rumor has it that is a pretty advanced device….
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:37 am
There is no “better” car. Everyone’s needs are necessarily going to be different.
If the Volt design works best for you then buy a Volt.
If a pure electric vehicle that can go up to 100 miles between charging works well for you then buy a Nissan Leaf or one of the other fine EVs that are coming out in the near future.
If you have the money to buy an EV that gets more than 100 miles on pure electric drive, I am jealous but go right ahead and get the vehicle that works best for you.
There is no single right answer. It’ll be a very personal choice.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:43 am
I had a fairly long post on this general subject a while ago suggesting all GM light trucks be 2 mode.
There would be some serious reengineering to allow heavy duty trucks to be powered this way. It is absolutely ‘do-able’ though!
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Interesting. Must have been a recent change. This was back in late May that Farah was saying there would be a special 12V that could be used for jump starts.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Come on… give him a break!
Considering that the ’smart grid’ is really no more than an idea at this point let him add a little hype. There is no damage done and they are working toward the right goals, right?
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:49 am
The 12V battery can be used to jump start another conventional vehicle, but they’ve recently said it can’t be used to start (or jump start) the Volt itself.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Exactly right.
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Is anyone concerned about that convient gas station located 2 miles from our home may turn out to be 20 miles or more once gas stations start to go under becuase of lack of business?
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:57 am
I do surf on those BEVers fansites, the same as I do here, and I believe some of us do as well. Simply for the sake of enlarging the scope of knowledge.
I’m not a troll, not a BEV terrorist, not a gm-fan, not american. I’m here to share my opinions the same way you do, because I’m interested in technology, especially in automotive industry.
Everyone is free to agree or not on any statement or opinions. But when it gets to make people feel they should pack their stuff because their opinion doesn’t fit consens…
Sorry for my bad english
Now, enjoy negative voting
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August 19th, 2009 at 10:58 am
I think many of us are BEV fans but don’t think they are ready yet due to that range thing. I am a strong supporter of BEV when there times comes for them to be the only car owned and acceptable for any type of trip.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Yes that was the one I was referring to.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Actually, I think it’s more likely refering to a paper presented by GM’s Bellino & summarized at….
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/bellino-20090819.html#more
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:04 am
I’m sure Mr. Posawatz can spell better than Scooter too: i.e. “probably” not “prolly”.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:08 am
It’s time for that new game show: “Who Wants To Drive A VOLT?”
Winner gets to be one of the few beta testers!
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I think the person asking that question would want to know if gasoline + generator + electric motors could get them home if the battery dies somehow.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Independants maybe, but not the corporates.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:13 am
No, I certainly am not concerned. Convert them into parks.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Why supply the company high-priced power from gas? Why would they buy it? Why run down the fuel in so small a gas tank?
I think this is really more of an opportunity for the power company to credit time on the battery for load leveling purposes and perhaps to supply emergency power to the home when the power goes out.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Wow those are buttons? Guess I need bifocals now.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:19 am
.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Also informative post to go with the picture.
Answers lots of earlier questions.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Several will already be closing due to the new and expensive requirements related to below ground fuel tanks.
But yes this will almost certainly happen over time if those retail establishments don’t adjust their business model to include biofuels, charging points, and something for patrons to spend money on while they wait to recharge.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:20 am
That’s a long way off.
If that were to happen though it likely means that technology has gotten to the point were they might not be needed at all.
My kids ‘might’ have to deal with that, but more likely the grandchildren.
I believe the Volt is the first real step toward that goal though.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Any ideas why a self-jump wouldn’t be possible? Or is it just extremely unlikely that one would need to do it?
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:25 am
You dont need to put the motors in the wheels. The motors could be mounted in the rear where the rear differential is. I think it would be great to have an independent motor for each wheel, but you just made the electrical/sofware engineer’s life hell.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:26 am
no single best answer, but there are answers the cover larger percentages of the population.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Better yet, anybody have the urge to strip off the ICE genset and drop in a capstone 30kW gas turbine?
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:30 am
(click to show comment)
August 19th, 2009 at 11:31 am
A strength of the gm-volt blog is that many different perspectives are given, most thoughtfully and well. One does not have to be any particular color to be welcome here.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Lawrence,
You are competely welcome to contribute here.
Alternative viewpoints intelligently and politely shared are a great way for us all to learn.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Just more things that need maintenance. The Volt will require twice (or more) maintenance than a regular car and much more than a Prius.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:34 am
That they are, but you gotta use that dang curser thing to hit them.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Agree, great post
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:34 am
The Machine Tool world is interesting.
Did you have any contact with Moore Special Tools stuff (the earlier tools – pre 1980, pre CNC)? I’m not familiar much with their current machine tool lines, but we use their measuring machines almost exclusively. They are the best in the world, if you can keep them maintained properly.
What did you sell?
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:36 am
And I will be glad to give my assistance to those making the selection process.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:36 am
I heard it would be a 6-gallon tank.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:37 am
old man –> Are you in NC? If so, where?
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:37 am
NOPE, rather I look forword to it. My Volt will be charged and ready to go.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Just curious on the Fisker, did they demonstrate the range extended mode?
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:38 am
“…dealers on the approved list.”
———
and which ones are those?
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:39 am
TAG, WHERE ARE YOU? I miss your constant good cheer as much as I miss Statik.
Good grief, bet your the next guest poster. SURE HOPE SO!!
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:40 am
…the smartest device on the smart grid…
Oh puleeez. This guy is so full of himself, a narcissist of epic proportions.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:40 am
It seems to me that the Volt will be smart enough to start the genset to top up it’s battery (to the depletion point) if it became dangerously low without intervention.
Of course in a perfect world it’s sitting plugged in and this wouldn’t be an issue.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:42 am
This article is why I think at some point GM will put out a full BEV. But I doubt they will do that until ranges of 300 miles appear in the same battery volume and the infrastructure for opportunity charging is built out a bit more.
The presence of a range extender allows the existing gasoline infrastructure to be used until the charging point is brought to the curb. Even after such an infrastructure exists, the range extender can act as an emergency (automotive) backup in the event of power failure.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:42 am
In CS mode the genset powers the motor directly. If there is surplus electric power and the battery is below its minimum state of charge of about 30% the genset also recharges the battery to 30% (but not beyond). Even in CS mode the battery supplies energy to meet any deficit of the moment, as in passing, so there is no loss of performance.
Or at least, that’s how it has been described.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:42 am
EV done right.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Most of the country lives in snow part of the year. FWD is much better in the snow as well as all the advantages you already listed. The Volt is being designed as a family car, not a performance car. Trust me, I too wish it could be RWD, as I love a good handling car and live in California, but GM made the right decision for this vehicle. What is possible for the future would be a performance version of the Volt that is AWD.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Hmmm… interesting thought!
Much like a 60’s Jag had inboard disk brakes.
THAT is a darn fine idea that totally solves the unsprung weight issue! The motors could sit in the space usually filled by the differential.
Damn you… now you have me thinking!
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:45 am
So looks like gasoline will be required to run a Volt.
Ha ha… I thought so..definitely a Hybrid and not an EV.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:47 am
“Presumption, 35% efficient ICE,..”
—————
Even 25% would be optimistic.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Dueling hyperbole alert! Approach with caution.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Wondered when our pet troll would appear.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:49 am
It really may be more in line with KISS to start the ICE from time to time. There is really no need for a whole separate protocol simply to avoid an occasional ignition and operation for a few minutes.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Yeah that will be funny sight. All those Volts carrying all that dead weight. Prolly by the time G stations start disappearing the Volt will be a long lost bad memory.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Actually, the Volt does need, and will have, a differential with the single motor. I too hope it is a limited slip design.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:50 am
One might use gasoline so infrequently it might be for sale in gallon jugs at WalMart
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Succinct and to the point. Bravo!
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Hey old man you used the words GM and reliability in the same sentence. That is quit a leap of faith and blind assumption. You funny guy.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Wow!!!
You seem to have no idea of how the Volt works. OR, just maybe–you are a troll.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Maybe it already is a 15 gallon tank . . . and the ’surprise’ is the CS mpg.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Tag went on vacation. Will be back in 3 or 4 days.
Just to see if I can help –>
Volt development is going great. Wonderful post.
Volt will be available by July 4 2010.
Widely available by November 2010 if not before.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Yes, Salisbury. Its a bit north of Charlotte and south of Greensboro.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:55 am
As you can see at least two posters disagree on this point. Looks like a teachable moment.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:55 am
And to further advertise this leap forward in the evolution of driving, they need to make the Caddy Converj! It could offer an incredibly refined/sporty driving experience and would not have to make any of the compromises the Volt had to for maintaining affordability. And I doubt it would take nearly the amount of effort normal powertrain development takes, since it simply would be an amped-up version of the Volt chassis.
Rich man’s car, I know, but looking at how much goodwill the CTS has generated for GM in general I think the Converj would be a boon. Not sure how much they’d actually sell at $70k or so, but it would provide a “coolness” halo for Voltec technology. I can see people warming up to buying other cheaper Voltec vehicles just because they are associated with the Converj. Just don’t alter the design one bit, it already looks aerodynamic enough and the 2-door design is crucial (maybe it would work with four door if the back 2 are semi-hidden like in the spark).
PS. I am normally not all that worked up about auto design, but I have a man crush on the CTS. I always look at it when driving, and it’s gonna make me crash one of these days. Granted, I am an extreme cheapskate and would never think of buying anything other than a bare-bones peoplemover, but in another life I would drive a CTS…at least until the Converj came out.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Why yes I have considered swapping in a small turbine.
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August 19th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Can’t wait to read about the first Volt to have its ICE seize up. That should make the late night talk show circuit.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
In addition to the gas tank, you also have the rear suspension components and the ICE muffler. I’m also hoping that they are engineering this platform with an eye to the future, so that platform may also cover a second motor for future AWD versions of Voltec.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Troll
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
lol…read up on electric drive.
How about that extremely complex HSD system?
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
You need to take a better look at the Prius, Jack. I see a battery, tires, shocks, hinges, power windows, A/C, brakes, and an ICE and all its accessories there too.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
In the early eightys I sold Moore as well as many other U.S. machine tools. I have sold, Moore, National Acme, Monarch, Bullard, Brown and Sharp and many others from around the world. To name a few Citizen, Miyano, Hitchi Seiki, Daewoo.
Interesting story, I once used a Moore jig grinder as a measuring machine to prove the accuracy of a Brown and Sharp CMM that I was selling. No one questions the accuracy of a Moore.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I protest! As the resident young person and Southern Californian on this blog, I am compelled to inform you that “prolly” is indeed an accepted spelling of “probably” nowadays. OK, so it sounds ridiculous but you’d start using chat language too if you chatted online a lot. I gave up on my “I’ll always use proper English even while chatting” stint a long time ago.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Intelligent, well thought out, and well articulated viewpoints of all types are highly valued. I believe you meant “alternative to EREV and the Volt concept” rather than removed from mainstream thought. Seems to me discussion of BEV and EREV go hand in hand. You can also bet your bottom dollar that if BEVs do catch on well (when IMO), there will be GM Voltec minus genset offerings of them. GM and EREV only enthusiasts should realize the synergistic positives of supporting both approaches.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Because I am curious what is the cost of these turbines?
Fuel usage?
At 30kw you would be held to about 75 mph sustained top speed, but that’s still ok.
Need input… (Johnny 5)
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Does your mom let you stay up that late?
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Thanks RB!
I feel better now!
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
That’s why a series diesel generator electric drive freight train can’t run without a battery in the train. Or not.
Perhaps they mean, as we currently configure it?
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
A self jump would require a converter that can return the 12V back to the 350V battery pack voltage. This is an extra part that would only be needed if you ran the pack totally dead.
About the only scenario I can think of where this could happen would be to run the car out of gas and they keep trying to start the engine. At some point the pack will go into protect mode.
This does happen with the Prius, and they have the up converter so you can get the car running again. With the Volt, you could plug it in for a few minutes until it has the juice to start the ICE.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I think you guys all missed what is really under that back platform.
The electric drive is just smoke and mirrors, but there to keep the government bosses happy and to get them good press coverage.
Hidden under that platform is a cage with two squirrels on rollers that will actually spin the wheels. When you press the accelerator pedal, treats are dropped and the squirrels start running to get them. When you press the brake pedal, the treats go away, and the squirrels stop. To get reverse, a picture of a mean dog pops up, and the squirrels run the other way!
The T shaped pack holds all the treats necessary for 10 years or 150K miles….
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
True enough on the CV joints. They’d be less range of motion CV joints though.
But rwd would still be cool.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Fortunately the Nissan LEAF doesn’t have to worry about MONTHLY VOLT MAINTENANCE !
That is actually quite sad, hopefully the dealer can help you.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Yeah they are really putting one over on us huh? That battery and electric motor is just for show, right? Either that or you don’t know that hybrids are a subset of EV.
I much prefer the term EREV since it denotes the primary function of the Volt drivetrain’s various components. But I’m OK with PHEV also. When the production Prius finally gets a plug I’m OK with being called a PHEV. But then I would demand something like numeric suffix that communicates its full speed AER.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I certainly understand why no AWD now. GM needs to get the Volt out ASAP, and anything extra only creates more risk.
But in the future AWD with very limited power on one end sure would be nice.
I have heard Toyota does that with some of their hybrid minivans.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I look forward to the first YouTube video of someone taking apart a Volt!
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Having a high platform like that allows a car to have fully flat surface when the rear seats are folded down. Similar to a Prius type design.
I for one prefer to have a completely flat surface, as most of the large items I carry, need to be (or nearly flat). Also, not too much space can be gained by the lower platform hieght anyway. Not too much distance from the rear of the wheels to the rear of the car..
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
You got to remember my many, many comments about my 99 buick with 191,000 miles on it.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
The right-front wheel bearing is also a single point of failure.
In most automobile failures (crashes) it is the interface between the driver’s seat and the steering wheel that is at fault. Cars are very reliable. Humans, not so much.
Fortunately, you will be merely inconvenienced (as in most cars) if something fails. You are taxiing, not landing.
I think that a 288-cell – 5-module – fully-monitored battery would have a lot of redundancy built in. You would get plenty of warning if something is failing.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Yes the Leaf should hold up rather well as long as you dust it. Not like you can take it anywhere.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Are you paid per post or is it more of an hourly thing?
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Better use some GAS regularily, otherwise don’t get a Volt and don’t be so stupid.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
It wouldn’t be a problem to either the EE or firmware engineers. GE locomotives and Siemens light rail cars have individual axle controls with wheel slip control. In a locomotive this is done because of the weight transfer from the leading axle to the trailing axle in each truck when pulling hard. Doing this gets them another 20% in traction.
The simple mode would be to run each motor in torque control mode, with equal torque to each axle with a speed difference limit. Advanced mode would be to do stability control where the torque is adjusted to help the car turn.
The problem is the extra cost of two inverters, two motors, and two gear reducers. A differential is just so much cheaper. The cost / benefit ratio works out on a $1mil light rail car or a $3 mil diesel electric loco. Not so on a $40K car already above target price.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
I don’t agree with the statment that the Volt runs on gas “occasionally”. If you take on a full charge and full load of gas, then drive until the car stops you will have spent the vast majority of the time running on gas.
The time on electric only is relatively short compared to the full range of a tank of fuel. Most of the Volt’s range is gas powered.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
If they are using an existing transaxle as the base, there may already be an aftermarket LS differential that would fit.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
That would be careless and just plain stupid. Stupid is as Stupid does. Take GM’s advise and run that Gas engine regularly and often. You have been warned.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
I was under my wife’s subaru last night checking the brakes and did a boot inspection while I was dirty. 220000km and going.
Of course on a subaru’s suspension they are actually quite high angle joints. It has lots of suspension travel.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I have been trying to research for a while how cheaply a small ~30kW turbine could be manufactured for but I am still unsure.
As far as fuel usage, it would be much less. GM (contrary to their argument that range anxiety killed the EV-1) made an EV-1 prototype that had a gas turbine range extender in the trunk. It got 60-100mpg in range entending mode.
Besides more efficient, it is smaller, lighter, smoother/vibration free, quieter, more versatile (ie run variety of fuels), maintenance/lubrication free (depending on the design) and just downright more elegant of a solution.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
That is very impressive mileage for a GM product , perhaps even a record, seriously. I would think about contacting the folks a Guinness.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
“”If the customer runs primarily in EV mode, we would also suggest that they not keep their tank full. That’s a lot of extra mass to carry around.”
____________________________________
/kidding aside, that seems like a rather “out of sync” comment if the volt truly has a 6 gallon gas tank. Topping off a 6 gallon tank is not going to add “a lot of extra mass”
//(given the 300 mile range we’ve been hearing lately: conspiracy guy thinks it’s another clue that the Volt’s CS mpg isn’t so sweet)
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Old man,
This is just another sudo for our troll.
Likely best to ignore them.
My ‘98 Malibu is just fine as well.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
One of the proposed uses of EV interaction with the grid is to supply power back to the utility at times of high demand. The energy doesn’t come from the gas engine, only from the battery. The battery would be recharged during off peak.
I already mentioned the problem of cost. Add to that the problem that the peak demand is occurring just as people are getting home from work with their depleted battery pack. There’s just not the energy to help out.
Waiting to charge until the middle of the night makes sense so long as you’re not going to take the car back out that evening. This could be done with pricing alone. Tell people that if you wait to charge when the utility says OK and we’ll do it for 80 cents vs. charge right away for $2, and many will pick the cheap charge most of the time.
The one place where pushing power back would be nice is during power outages. If you could use the volt to keep your freezer running, that would be a neat additional feature.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Looks like Volt owners will be kept on a very short leash by the Vendor and Dealer. Can you say frequent maintenance. Wow.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Right now I live 14 miles from the nearest gas station. It does take a bit of adapting, but it isn’t that much of an inconvenience.
I think we all should look forward to the day when most people live 20 miles from a station because gas use is so rare.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
60 miles further than a Volt is enough for me.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Take an engine, exercise it monthly yet never rack up long hours…
Standby generators do that and last decades. I suspect you’ll be waiting a long time.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Of course.
The genset is started off the main pack using the generator as the starter, if the pack is ‘dead’ there is no start.
Your bike wouldn’t move with a dead battery either, there is no conspiracy here my friend.
A plug and charge would likely solve the problem.
I suppose one could ‘bodge’ on a kick starter…
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Take the 72 volt starting battery out of a locomotive, and it won’t work either.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Suddenly the Leaf has 500-mile, on-board range? Good to know.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
I think it’s because they are going to show a 1000km range per a tank. (like the VW Tdi’s)
/Hey Tag is away and RB has done their bit to be Tag-ish today!
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
http://www.weblife.org/humanure/images/writersblock.jpg
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
I never said that there was a conspiracy. I’m just happy to jump all over sloppy statements, that’s all, so that GM can continually improve its messages to consumers.
My bike shares more in common with a Volt than with the current Prius, that’s for sure. Why else do you think I’m here, cheerleading the Volt? I know from personal experience exactly how awesome 100% electric drive can be.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Doing what you suggest (driving until the tank is empty) only happens occasionally for most people.
The reference to occasional gas use is for those who exceed the all-electric range of 40 miles in a single trip not those who exceed the full extended range with gasoline.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I spent some time years bad in the airline industry and the overriding issue with turbines was the incredible cost.
I believe the reason EV-1 died was cost related, it cost twice as much to build as they could sell it for. A turbine driven genset would have made a bad cost situation that much worse.
You REALLY don’t want to leave a turbine sitting and not running for extended periods of time. Internal corrosion would be a huge problem.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
test
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
You are right of course, but I had visions of an electric hotrod dancing through my head!
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Yes, the Volt is a typical gasoline car with an electric motor shoehorned in for some extra torque. If you drive beyond 20 miles you will be using a lot of gasoline for sure.
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
The gas tank is 10 gallons in size .
That fact was published in the announcement that the Ontario government will provide $10,000 for Canadians living in Ontario for the purchase of a GM Volt .
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August 19th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Good stuff. Keep those quotes (and videos) coming!
I was on youtube last night and saw a bunch of Volt videos I hadn’t seen before. Search on ‘Volt Lutz’ for some interesting ones.
Y’all make me laugh every day (in a good way).
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I see no reason to believe it would be frequent at all, even in comparison with other vehicles. Compared to regular ICE vehicles the engine and brakes on the volt will likely require less maintenance simply because they are not strained as often. Compared to an electric-only vehicle, it’s quite likely the occasional use of the genset may preserve battery life.
And that, to me at least, is pretty cool. Maybe even wow.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Hear about the Buick crossover cancellation? They promised we’ll see the PHEV powertrain in another vehicle with “no delay”. I’ll wager there will be a bit of delay, but it will be a much better car. GM cannot afford to mess up a single car.
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/08/reports_from_the_front.html
This is a really good sign from GM (although I can’t believe this sort of consumer testing wasn’t the norm already for auto companies!).
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Disagree. Poor statement. He should get some backlash for it. Stupid is as stupid does.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
You got that right.
Moore’s lead screws and motion ways are works of art. Hard to get that kind of craftsmanship anymore.
I current develop our capability using two Moore M48 CMM’s. Only a few of these ever made, and we now have two. Probably the best CMM’s ever built, bar none. Are not using the old Allan Bradley controllers, though. We went to a modified Leitz controller. It works really well with the laser scales on the M48’s and our collection of goofy probe designs. Rooms that control temp to 0.005 deg C helps too.
Cool to talk with a guy familiar with the measuring business.
“Old” does not necessarily mean “outdated”!
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
A simple and correct solution.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
That nice photo has been available on GM’s media site for months. Here is a video that was recently posted by ChevroletVoltAge which is much more illuminating in my opinion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7T0m1Z2FO4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fwatch%5Fpopup%3Fv%3Dg7T0m1Z2FO4&feature=player_detailpage
For example, if you freeze the video at 5 seconds in (just before the silver Power Electronics Module appears) you get a clearer view of the motor housing than I have seen from any other source. It really does look closely related to the front wheel drive 2 mode hybrid transmission. I asked Jon Bereisa whether this was a coincidence and his reply was ” It is danged deliberate.”
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I disagree. In a typical gasoline car the engine drives the wheels directly wasting a good deal of the energy content of the gasoline as heat.
Also the electric motors on the Volt provide ALL the torque.
And while your all-electric operational radius is 20 miles, using gas won’t begin until after 40 miles. If your destination is within 440 miles, I wouldn’t consider 6-8 gallons “alot” of gas since the typical gasoline car has from 10-15 gallons.
Alot must be one of those newfangled metric units of measure.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
And the squirrels are in cages so the drivetrain doesn’t “multiply” out of warranty.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
GM
I will be a Volt tester !!
I currently have the 2010 Fusion Hybrid and could do a daily / weekly / monthly comparison of stats on each car for you..
All kinds of roads and weather conditions here in Central Alberta Canda…
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Are you from Raleigh?
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Oh my, this gas use issue is going to be a headache. Why don’t they just program it to run the ICE automatically, maybe it really is a noisy motor or gets really bad mileage. I smell something fishy in Detroit (or is it Denmark).
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I didn’t say he shouldn’t get backlash if you think it’s brash. I wasn’t even defending his statement. I just don’t see where ones’ backlash is more impressive with name calling.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Although this might be a troll I’ll answer anyway.
You are telling us that you drive greater than 300 miles every day?
Man… it sucks to be you!
Most normal people drive considerably less each day (most less than 40 miles) and will plug in at night so their Volt will run Electric most of the time.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Those are the big questions we are all waiting to have answered by GM!!
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I just laughed out loud!
Just don’t let PETA know…
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Rear wheel drive would take up space that would otherwise be used as a trunk, space for a fuel tank and the possibility that one or both rear seats could be folded back for cargo space. Also I suspect it provides a crush zone for the battery in the event of a rear end collision where as putting an electric motor and associated controls could possibly interfere. Just my thoughts!!
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
That gets me to my favourite question about the Volt:
)
what if a ‘naive’ driver runs out of gas when in CS mode?
(”OMG! I forgot I’d swapped my car with my wife’s…”
With a standard car, I’d personally call a friend to bring me some gas to at least make it home (should be cheaper than a tow truck, lol), but would this strategy work with the Volt?
The ICE would also need, other than gas, a bit of electricity to start, I guess – which I assume should be left in the battery – but would it then be able to power the electric motor and let me drive (hopefully) home?
Or, in case of no direct link between ICE and electric motor, would the ICE be able to build up a minimum recharge in the battery (supposing it is not damaged), in a reasonable time, and get me moving again?
I say: don’t underestimate the power… of customer misuse
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I keep hearing people talking about power outages.
I don’t remember the last time ours went out, it’s definately been a while.
Rather than beating up the expensive Volt battery if you are REALLY concerned about it why not setup a stationary battery bank in your house and charge it with Solar and wind power?
You get power outage protection and a ‘free’ charge for the Volt each night.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
It’s odd that people give me a negative check mark for stating a factual statment…
I’m not saying I personally drive that far every day. I drive about 80 per day.
My point was that when you look at the range of a car and the percentage of time on gas vs electric throughout that range, the gas mode is much greater. If you introduce a time variable to the mix (ie, “daily”) it complicates things.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Ian Wright gave me a ride in the X1 ( http://wrightspeed.com/x1.html ) a few years ago. Fun acceleration. We didn’t get to go on any twistys though. The lack of screen made my eyes water like crazy.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
500 Mile BEV $20 – 33K I guess I want one of those
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Yep. I guess I have to go back and check. I’m sure Lyle has written about this …
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
EVO… Keepin’ us honest!
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Damp and dank under that rock ain’t it!
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
The engine was running all the time I saw/heard it, if that answers the question.
They may have run it around on the battery/batteries, but we were up at the media center and missed it if so.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Above troll is not the *REAL* Jackson. Accept no substitutes.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Oh, like GM did years ago with the GM EV-1?
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=2545
And there was a program maybe 6-7 years ago where they were looking at turbines for serial hybrids as well. I can’t remember the name of the program though. Any GM employee lurkers out there that can comment?
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Correct! This is the same logic that applies to home gen sets. It is programmed to do a self check periodically, mine does it once per month. Starts up, runs for a defined period of time and shuts down. I can check this as being completed locally at the panel or it can send me an e-mail
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
There is a rather funny video of Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear in an Atom.
Truly a classic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Sure it will. Just make sure the diesel is running first.
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Leave it to BEVers.
(queue music)
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August 19th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Thanks for this phenomenal video, Cab Driver ….and for your enlightening interchange with Jon Bereisa!
This same video paused at 14 secs shows plenty of space exists between/under the muffler, the 12V battery & the suspension components —so why not use a normal-size gas tank to achieve CS ranges much longer than 300 miles to answer the 750 mile Fusion Hybrid hype?
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
All of our cars are rear wheel drive, but I recently did a driving school at Willow Springs in the little Toyota front wheel drive coupes they use for the Long Beach Grand Prix celebrity race. Their handling makes our old rwd Corvettes seem like steam locomotives.
The Cobalt SS has humiliated rwd sports cars such as the Honda S2000 and awd cars such as the Subie WRX and the Mitsu Evo in recent comparison track tests. I agree that rwd is a better underlying configuration, but modern chassis engineering can do near miracles with fwd. The volt will be just fine for anything but racing.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
There’s some merit to the argument that the only vehicles that aren’t already part electric are those that have hand crank and kick starters.
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectrica.htm
“The decline of the [all] electric vehicle was brought about by…
[the rise of partly electric vehicles with ] the invention of the electric starter by Charles Kettering in 1912 [which] eliminated the need for the hand crank.”
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
The real problem with smart grid, P2P or anything like it is the assumption that essentially portable (and expensive) battery systems are going to sit in one place for extended periods.
Even if they offer you a high price for the power they take, they’ve still cycled your battery whose lifetime is measured in total number of cycles. The only way this could possibly work is if the power company actually owned the battery and leased it to you.
I don’t read a lot of sympathy on this site for battery leasing.
The smart thing for the power utilities to do is invest in their own kind of stationary battery, which doesn’t have to use expensive Lithium Ion technology to accomplish the same kind of ends; and not be perpetually at the mercy of a gazillion car drivers who suddenly decide they have to go somewhere.
Fortunately, there has been at least some interest in Sodium-Sulfur type batteries, both for utility use and for homes.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Um… read the dang article before posting.
“…we want to make sure that once every month or so, we can perform a maintenance run on the engine (for keeping the engine parts lubricated and the gas from getting stale).
This will be done automatically for the customer…”
It will be really nice when we start using our VINs as our identity!!
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
You forgot:
LJGTVWOTR
NPNS
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Hi Keith, can you find the link to that announcement. It would be big news and would establish that the Volt would get at least 30 MPG in CS mode, because of the oft stated 300 mile range.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
George V. Higgins’ Boston characters used to say “prolly” back in the 50’s and the 60’s. “The Friends of Eddie Coyle”, “The Digger’s Game”, “Kennedy for the Defense”, etc., etc., etc. Pretty common Boston dialect, I assume.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Didn’t think it sounded like you!
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
228,000 on my 2000 S-10 and running just fine, thank you very much.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
VERY GLAD TO KNOW THAT.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Could be a shocking debut.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I very much like the idea of an affordable stationary battery and Sodium-Sulfur looks like it ‘might’ just be the ticket.
Because you have to keep them really warm I’m thinking underground in a thick foam box could be a good implemention.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
If you plug in every night, your 80 mile trip is almost half electric. How often do you go to the gas station? With a Volt, you can cut that number of trips in half.
If you plug in every night, and your employer allows you to plug in at work, you may find yourself making that trip to the gas station every 6 months.
The difference is that “every night” verses however often you buy fuel. This doesn’t seem all that complicated to me.
You mention the percentage of time spent running on gas, but this is only a factor when you drive further than you typically would without recharging. How often will that be? Yes, it will happen. But I think you’re overstating the proportion of gasoline-based travel under real-world conditions for most commuters.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
That is an interesting question!
My guess is that the car would ‘know’ it’s out of petrol and would warn the driver to pull over safely on battery. It should not allow you to run the battery dead.
Once the ‘jerry’ can of gas is put into the tank you would ’start’ the car, it would self-check, find out it now has gas and would start the genset automatically. Depending on how low the battery pack got it ‘might’ run the genset fast until minimum charge is achived.
Off you go.
Not really much different than now, car stops, pour gas into tank, restart car.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Imperial gallons or US gallons
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
O MAH BAD!11!11!! OMG WTH LOL I GU3S I GOT PWNED
!1!1!!! OMG LOL
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Steven,
Phrases like ” ….most of the Volt’s range is gas powered….” are so misguided, it can only indicate to me that you either have no idea how the Volt is intended to be used or are trying to disparage the car by spreading sillyness.
Phrases like “…If you take on a full charge and full load of gas, then drive until the car stops….” are clearly scenarios that are intended to mask the Volt’s capability.
When you say: “I don’t agree with the statment that the Volt runs on gas “occasionally”….”, you are indentifying yourself as someone who knows so little about the Volt, you can not be taken seriously.
You not comprehending the concept of the Voltec chassis, why the AER is 40 miles, does not make the Volt any less impressive. It makes you look uneducated and unprepared for a reasonable discussion. Especially here.
Sorry.
As far as “complicating things”, YES! most innovative technology is mildly complicated. In function and in implementation. How YOU view it sort of depends on your definition of “complicated”.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Yes, torque/speed control & sychronization is standard stuff built into drives (and servo controllers, something i’ve been thinking about on the side), but someone would have to engineer it for a custom machine/controller that will see many different scenarios. Didnt say it was impossible ( [cliche]with enough time & money everything is possible), but it would much more complex that what Volt currently is. And KISS usually works out best for problem prevention.
The price of drives/controllers has gotten very low in the last few years (for example under $1000 for a 10hp drive). I dont know if a gearbox would be needed. It would depend on the motor/drive size and what 0RPM torque could be achieved. Not sure how cheap GM could get its electronics if buyiing them in 10,000 blanket orders…. or what a rear differential cost them. It would probably make sense to have independent motors for the front wheels too. They could probably have 1 controller for all 4 motors.
I like to hear from any DIY’ers here, they would know first hand.
Cost & engineering aside, I still think it would be “neat”, and would also give me AWD.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Yikes!! There coming out of the walls today!
Yesterday too, for that matter…….
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Yeah, cause if it was an EV I wouldn’t be able to go long distance without stopping every “100″ miles. Good thing the car lets you know there’s an engine by turning it on once a month otherwise we might all have self imposed range anxiety!
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
“Even 25% would be optimistic”
Maybe 25% is optimistic for a standard ICE, but the Volt has an Atkinson cycle ICE (like the Prius), which is more efficient.
But unlike the Prius, the ICE in the Volt is not physically connected to the drive train, so it can run at only a few set RPMs that are optimized for efficiency. Therefore, I would expect efficiency exceeding that of the Prius.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Or it could behave like my Prius when it runs out of gas and go into possessed mode. EVERY warning light came on, complete loss of power, one headlight on, one off, door locks wouldn’t work, power wouldn’t turn off or on, and everything electrical just freaked out as it drained what was left of the battery.
Pretty shitty design for a hybrid that you are NEVER supposed to let get fully drained (battery). Other than that the cars been great (60K miles)
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Funny. Hmm I smell troll.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
That sounds reasonable to me, too.
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Yep it’s off topic that GM is cancelling the “Buick/Vue plug-in” they so recently announced …..but its still “Electrifying News”!
My hope is that they make it available as part of the deal with Roger Penske so it will be “born again” as the plug-in 2-mode Vue as well as a GM brand. I’ll buy one in a heartbeat!!!
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August 19th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Right.
OK, I’m going to remove this “Warning High Voltage” cover…(screen goes black.)
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August 19th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Note that my post has a “gravatar.” If name-spoofing continues, I’d encourage bona-fide posters to find a unique image file and pay a visit to gravatar.com.
http://en.gravatar.com/
The thumbnail image is keyed when you post if you have logged in as a user with a real email address on file, here (and on other sites, too). It’s unlikely that our multi-handled trollster will be willing to leave a real email address to activate a gravatar.
And to think that initially, I thought gravatars were a waste of time.
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August 19th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
OK, however to be fair to the board your post felt and sounded a lot like our resident trolls work.
Lets take your commute;
Right now you drive 80 miles (glad I don’t!!) burning gas for all 80 miles, right?
With a Volt you would (assuming you cannot charge at work) drive half as far on gas. without knowing the CS mileage of the Volt and what you currently drive I can’t quantify the saving as yet.
However, if you could arrange charging at work you could at least in theory drive the whole way AER. (in practice with the AC or heater on you will likely run the genset a little bit each way.)
Without more details I can’t be much more definate of course.
Of course it’s complicated! For example my total normal commuting distance is roughly 35 km a day or 175 km a week so I will stay well within the AER. Assuming I didn’t have any long evening errands it’s quite possible I wouldn’t burn any gas at all during the week. How do we calculate that for gas mileage? I’m going with “pretty darn good”. (infinate!)
Of course it isn’t quite that simple in the real world and Monday nights I just commited to getting my son to a function 45 km one way, so add 90 km to my Mondays driving. 125km driving is well beyond the AER of the Volt in a single day so I will run the genset in CS mode for about 60 km of that.
I’m willing to bet that this will average to a much better gas mileage than whatever either of are driving currently gets.
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August 19th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Sad that we have to go to such lengths isn’t it?
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