Now that GM has announced the Volt will average 230 MPG in city driving, we are interested in knowing more.
When the Volt concept was first unveiled in January 2007, GM said the car would get 50 MPG average when it was in generator mode based on computer simulations.
We understand the car will get up to 40 miles of pure electric driving from a fully charged battery, and that the average city driver will average 230 miles of cumulative driving on a gallon of gas, but what will the average fuel economy be in charge sustaining mode?
When the battery reaches a roughly 30% state-of-charge, its 1.4 L 4-cylinder engine will fire up, spin a generator, and produce electricity.
That electricity will purely be used to power the 110 kw electric motor, though the battery will still have that 30% hearty buffer and contribute to driving power demands as necessary. Furthermore, any braking, coasting or downhill opportunities will allow the recapture kinetic energy into the battery.
Clearly this series-hybrid design differs considerably then the typical power-split architecture of today’s modern hybrids like the Prius. It is of great interest to see how much fuel economy it can attain.
I recently asked Volt line engineer Tony Posawatz whether the production Volt would still get 50 MPG like the concept was promoted to. He said “that was just the concept,” though he didn’t specify what the real car will get.
Frank Weber when asked the same question said the story would eventually be told, but not right now.
So with this uncertainly why not a little speculation? What will the series hybrid mode fuel economy be? And how important is that number to us?
What HVAC Mode of Operation Do You Plan to Use in Your Chevy Volt?
- Low Power (slow to heat and cool cabin, more pure electric range) (45%)
- Normal Power (faster heating and cooling, less pure electric range) (40%)
- Doesn't Matter (15%)
Total Votes: 1,452
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+13
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:51 am)As long it’s more than the Prius.
+10
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:52 am)It will be a great dissapointment if it is not close to the 50 Mark.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:00 am)First, I just love that picture of Einstein superimposed in front of Voltec electricity numbers!! That really “hits” home the physics of change that I believe electric drive will attain for us.
All the numbers-crunchers ought to save that one for a wall poster. (I am). That picture ought to be made available by Lyle instead of the “T”-shirts when we contribute to his marathon fund raiser for stroke research. (I would need one in time for my talk at the Renewable Energy Roundup on Sept 26th-ish of next month).
So VERY much will depend on how you drive your Volt in the attainment of MPG’s. If I am able to test one, I will strictly adhere to the most normally-gentle driving characteristics the traffic pattern requires, so that automated feedback can be properly acquired. No temptation to “racing” will at all be entertained whatsoever if other drivers at stop lights somehow indicate the “let me see what it’ll do” impulse.
(But I would not go irritatingly-slow to artificially increase the numbers either, just keep pace with a normal acceleration rate of the other vehicles).
I am going to print out this above picture on my low-res printer. But, it would be a great idea Lyle, if you could set up your own link of all these TERRIFIC Volt pictures that folks who donate to your cause could access from, say, Kinko’s, for them to print out large poster size pictures for us.
Do you think that would work?
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:02 am)I vote for “I dunno” variant
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:03 am)I think it will be a number around 40-45 mpg.
This is based on nothing more than my relatively uninformed engineering judgement in response to the poll question.
I assume the same number for both highway and city.
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:06 am)Good PS edit of AE & chalkboard! I am thinking lower 40′s for real world average driver based on average use of AC & other electricity using devices. 48 maybe downhill or in Florida during hurricane season headed out of town or maybe on a calm day with one person (under 200 lbs) with everything non essential turned off. I personnally although would love it, just don’t see 50 MPG except under laboratory ideal conditions. I hope I am proven wrong! The ICE has been around a long time & other than the first Honda Insight has not really achieved it in normal driving.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:06 am)It has to be better than Toyota or Toyota is going to have a field day with their advertising on the Prius . So GM runs 40 miles on electricity , big deal , what does it get on gasoline ?
+7
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:11 am)You’re absolutely right, Joe! The “sticker wars” (arguments as to what the EV & EREV window stickers should show as “mileage” or “efficiency”) will hopefully be resolved so as to include both CITY & HWY figures for the Volt in CD mode. And both numbers MUST be better than those for the much less expensive Prius!*
*If not, GM will suffer significant lost sales to Toyota!
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:12 am)Actually i tend to agree with you.
If a 1.4L generator in the Volt being used to power an electric motor cannot do one better than the Prius, then GM is still playing catchup with the Prius’s 10 year old technology. It should be Remembered both cars at this point would only be using regenerative breaking to assist their respective motors.
+6
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:13 am)With great aerodynamics, the highway mileage will probably be great at 55-60 mph. But with the Volts weight approaching 4000 pounds it will be tough for the Volt to beat the Prius in charge sustaining mode if the generator isn’t off at least part of the time. GM has repeatedly stated that the generator will not completely recharge the battery, but that some extra electricity will be sent to the battery in charge sustaining mode. I think the Volt will get about 45 mpg when the generator is on and the car is being driven in a typical city setting. But if the generator produces 25 kW and the car needs 15 kW to tool around at 35 mph and stop at the occasional red light… After 8 or 10 minutes of use the generator will shut off and the Volt will go back to all electric mode, maybe for 2 or 3 minutes, but maybe for 4 or 5. If the latter, the Volts mileage could be quite impressive, in 60-70 mpg range. Something that even the Prius will not be able to achieve, because it is a gasoline powered car with a tiny electric motor to assist it.
And the Volt haters will still scream that GM is cooking the books…
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:15 am)Volt weight = 3520 lbs. Prius weight = 3042 lbs. It will be intersting to see if the Volt can match the Prius MPG with the extra 500 lbs of weight. Even if the Volt comes in a bit less – say 45 MPG that’s not a big deal since most Volt commute drivers will be in the AER.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:16 am)My guess of 50-60 mpg is based on my style of driving and the highway milage I get with the old Buick. In addition to the style of driving I think and hope that the constant load [ force required to rotate ] the engine will experience will add to the milage. The major changes in force required to rotate will be to the electric motor. And this change will be buffered by the battery. A set of nearly constant sweet spot ICE speeds should surprise us!
+6
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:17 am)“GM said the car would get 50 MPG average when it was in generator mode based on computer simulations.”
If the simulations predicted 50MPG when the car was shaped like a brick I would assume it has to be significantly better now that aerodynamics have been optimized.
This is of course assuming that simulations were well thought out systems level models as opposed to .04 second simulations done in Bob Lutz’s head.
If it was a Bobo simulation I just hope the pink tie wasn’t too tight that day!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:17 am)I’d be glad to drive a Volt from Michigan to Florida if GM wants some real world data.
-2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:21 am)Better than ideal (downhill w/tailwind) 50+mpg
Ideal conditions (flat road, 50degrees, no wind, going 45mph) ~48mpg
Real world ~40mpg
my guestimate based on all that i’ve learned.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:24 am)I agree completely.
It is a very important point to me since my commute is 101 miles daily.
If I can charge at work and get 50 MPG for the 21 miles of generator use, I will be happy. Especially since I don’t really believe I will be getting 40 miles out of the battery while on the highway, with A/C, headlights, and radio all turned on. I’m thinking (hoping?) 35 miles.
+6
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:24 am)I believe it will be higher than 60. Take an efficient small engine, driving asmall load , (comapratively to movingt he entire auto) tuned to maximum efficiency at specific RPMs that will always run in a steady state…
gonna be high…
I looked at a Honda generator designed for an HVAC app, it produces a steady 1.2 Kw 24/7, tuned to max efficiency at a specific RPM and is rated at 90% efficient (so much so, it condenses (it runs on natural gas) they had to modify the exhaust design to handle condensate.
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:26 am)it just HAST TO BE above the 50mpg mark. We all know it.
Everything else would be a PR desaster – although the basic goal is never to use the ICE mode.
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:28 am)Presumably we should think of charge-sustaining as having both a city and a hwy value, as charge-sustaining will encompass both. My guess is 28 city 38 hwy for combined EPA of about 32 mpg. That’s somewhat better than the current Cobalt, to which the Volt is similar in size. The Volt is more aerodynamic, a plus, but heavier, a minus, and the electric drivetrain is going to introduce some losses (a minus), perhaps overcome by some buffering possibilities (a plus). My guess is that the plusses and minuses largely offset each other.
So, to me 32 combined is a good result, not a bad one. What is special about the Volt is the plug-in capability, not charge-sustaining mode.
People who want to compare to Prius can compare the Volt’s mythical 230 mpg rating, the perhaps-to-be “official EPA value,” rather than an ICE or charge-sustaining value.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:30 am)I do agree with that. It better beat the Prius.
-17
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:38 am)(click to show comment)
-12
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:41 am)(click to show comment)
-17
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:44 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:45 am)And I will volunteer to drive it from CT to Olympic National Park, via Colorado.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:46 am)I’m with you. I don’t know how anyone can post anything more than a guess on this one. Granted, many folks are much more educated in their guesses on this type of issue than I. But that does not change the fact that no one (outside of GM’s Volt team) really has enough data to do more than guess at this point.
-9
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:47 am)Volt no make 40 miles with gas or electric. Not True advertising and misleading public put bad face on GM. Obama not true Joker. Joker face belong on GM. Fuzzy math invented at GM. No Einstein needed.
+9
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:47 am)Starting early No Name eh?
Cold under the bridge?
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:49 am)I think you are a little confused. There is no “assist” in the Volt’s scheme. In both cases the regenerative brakes put power to the battery. In the Prius’es case the Electric motor that uses the battery is an assisting motor to the primary gas engine. This is not the case with the Volt. If you are claiming that Prius was some invention of the electric motor or regenerative braking, then I suggest doing some additional research.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:50 am)Im with Mitch,
I have been hypermiling my Dodge Grand Cherokee some just to see what I could do, and one thing you learn is that the acceleration is what kills your mileage.
With the Volt, All the acceleration is handled by the high efficiency Battery/Motor configuration. This allows the Engine to slowly ramp up to meet the AVERAGE demand.
I think if GM does it right it could be in the 60s. This would mean using the battery alot as a buffer, and recharging it to some minimum SOC to have it available again.
Highway miles at 70 mph will be lower I believe in the 45-50 range.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:52 am)Sounds like a Dummy Vote.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:52 am)It depends on how well GM markets. If they convince the average Joe that they will get through 75% of their days using NO gas, then the MPG in charge-sustaining mode becomes much less important – even irrelevant. Early adopters can also change public perception by spreading the word.
This is where this web-site could play a huge roll after introduction of the vehicle – by collecting and sharing real-world information regarding electrical miles and amount of fuel used under various conditions. If Lyle can be careful about whose data he lets in (to keep out plants and spoilers) then this site could become a valuable source of information for educating the general public.
Lyle might want to start with the first few thousand on the wait-list for a project of this type. Just a thought. No guilt Lyle if you don’t want to take on another job.
+7
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:53 am)I do not agree. There will be a large number of people,who would still be able to take advantage of the initial 40 or so miles of “discount” with the Volt as opposed to the Prius. That is a very attractive advantage that not other car will have other than a BEV with its own limitations. Volt steel has this “Ace in the hole.”
Volt is the only car where you’l have the advantage of a pure BEV and the ICE. Even with less then great mileage in ICE mode it should not be worse then a comparable sized ICE. If the Volt does have great mileage in ICE mode that is extra plus in my opinion.
+7
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:54 am)Okay folks … This one shouldn’t be that difficult. In charge sustaining mode the Volt will operate (in broad terms) just like any other non-plugin hybrid on the market. The prime mover will be gasoline but there will be a battery in the mix to smooth out the supply and demand battle that the engine/generator and the electric traction motor will be constantly fighting. This simplified explanation is exactly how all hybrids work.
Therefore, if we assume that the engine/generator/traction motor setup is at least as efficient as the PSD arrangement in the Prius, we can expect at least 50 MPG in CS mode. Having personally driven thousands of miles in Honda Civic Hybrids, Priuses and my wife’s Honda Insight, I feel comfortable that in the Volt, MPG averages in the 50s should be no problem. My prediction: the average Volt driver will achieve right at 50 MPG and that most of us here will likely average between 50 and 60.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:54 am)You forget that the Volt will really be competing against the nextgen plug-in Prius not the old 50 MPG Prius of today. The new improved Prius will surely pounce on the Volt something fierce. It might be painful for Volt fans to watch that commercial. woot.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:54 am)I’m with you old man.
I think the optimized engine speeds are going to make for very good (prius besting) on genset mileage. (This is actually pretty important for me, I did 1400km last weekend…)
Before I draw fire I do think Toyota deserves a lot of credit for the rather impressive (if homely) 2010 model.
+6
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:55 am)I think to be a viable option to the Prius, the Volt must get close to the Prius’ 50 MPG. Don’t forget, the initial cost of the Prius is almost half that of what the volt is projected to cost.
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:56 am)My guess is between 43 and 48 in “standard” mode on both the EPA city/hwy cycles. I still think there will be an “economy” mode that will get higher ratings, hopefully for GM’s sake at least matching the Prius at similar levels of performance.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:56 am)BUT I WILL VOLUNTEER TO DRIVE IT WHEREVER,HOWEVER, AND WHENEVER THEY WANT ME TO.
May sound a bit like begging. IT IS!!
SMILE
-3
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:57 am)Look for GM to announce something like 80 MPG or similar outrageous number since the EPA doesn’t do “independent testing”. More monkey math from Government Motors. The more I listen to the New GM the more I disbelieve anything that comes out of their pie hole.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:58 am)I feel your pain.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:59 am)I needed your comedy break!
Thanks!
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:59 am)I think you are a bit pessimistic but I understand your point.
I think the optimised engine speeds will make a huge difference in efficency.
Of course the 230mpg is a bit of a stretch, of course if one were to commute 5 days a week without starting the engine the average gas use is going to be pretty darn good!
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:03 am)Me wish get they close to Prius PRICE too. But dream me just.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:04 am)Keith.
40 miles electrical IS a big deal for someone, who need not drive more per daily recharge.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:05 am)My bet is that the Volt could be setup to match the Prius MPG numbers in CS mode, but that GM will not do that in order to gain performance and to avoid operating in a manner that is too “weird”. I still think they’re likely to have an “economy” mode that will get very close to Prius MPG at similar levels of performance.
Have you seen the MPG numbers for Google’s stable of plug-in Prius vehicles? They have serious problems in city driving. The reason is that they need to start the engine quite often to support the power requirements of the drivers and (I’m guessing) to keep the emissions system warm to lower CO and NOx levels, all when there is plenty of energy left in the batteries. The power split design is truly great, probably unbeatable, for a non-plugin, but there are issues for a plugin version.
+8
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:06 am)I went online and “built” my own Prius with all of the options I think the VOLT will have… MSRP = $35,644
One of my sales team went to the local Toyota dealer and they told him $5,000 over MSRP and possibly a 24 month wait list for the latest model.
Wait list aside, I’ll take the bigger, quieter, more comfortable VOLT. The price argument doesn’t seem valid to me anymore.
+7
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:07 am)Well GM’s Chevy Cruze (on the same platform as the Volt) which will also use the 1.4L engine with a turbo charger is expected to get close to 40mpg.
The Volt will use the same 1.4L engine but without turbo. It will run in more efficient modes. Will not run through a transmission. But the car will be heavier. So I honestly believe that 50mpg is very possible. Might even be able to exceed that.
GM hasn’t finished the final programming for the charge sustaining mode so they are probably very reluctant to give a number for the FE.
+8
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:07 am)I don’t plan using gas that often, so it doesn’t really matter to me. So the few time I’ll use it in charge sustaining mode is not that important for me. If it gets 40 mpg or more, I’ll be more then happy.
+11
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:09 am)I heard they were going to paint it with lead paint that will probably chip off and fly in the mouths of babies too.
I do like the option of baby seal leather appointments in the interior, however.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:11 am)You misspelled your own name. your missing the “a” “s” “S” before your last name. You need to replace the “Jack.”
-7
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:13 am)I can’t wait to get my hands on some ChiCom built EV that will surely be better than the Volt.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:14 am)I agree, Dan! ….Lyle, your photoshop of Einstein at the blackboard is a masterpiece!
And Dan, we’d all like to read your paper from the Renewable Energy Roundup next month. How about posting it in the gm-volt.com forum?
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:18 am)I agree. I am sure most people voted without any educated knowledge as opposed to voting with “hoped for mileage”. I know I did. I have no knowledge that would tell me what MPG the Volt will get, but I do know that I would like to see it get at least between 50 and 60 MPG. More than that would always be greatly appreciated by all.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:19 am)To the suddenly appearing trolls here:
The very inexpensive first 40 miles rules!
You only achieve this with a BEV but without the Volt’s flexibility.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:19 am)Exactly.
+9
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:22 am)“GM will never catch the Prius.”
So the Prius suddenly uses no gasoline, has no “monster” four-banger, and apparently farts sunshine instead of nitrogen oxides.
If the carbon saturation theory holds any weight it appears I can also kill you with my Volt.
Dude I am so buying one now!
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:23 am)“Any form of energy can be transformed into another form, but the total energy always remains the same.” Because the ICE has a large amount of energy loss (heat, friction,ETC), compared to an electric motor, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/atv.shtml , is why, as we all know, vehicles will powered by motors.
My question is: How will GM overcome the energy lost coming from the transfer of mechanical energy to electrical energy? We all know the ICE will have to be extremely efficient.
What technology will GM use in the Volt and will they use some of it in the Cruze ?
–an engine that will operate only in it’s sweet spot?
–turbocharge engine?
–HCCI
–regenerative braking
Do you know of any other technologies?
A
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:26 am)You are missing the real point of the Volt. Most of your driving will probably be done while using no gasoline. The Prius cannot touch that and may not be able to come close to it even after Toyota adds a plug to it. I don’t see the comparison to the Prius except that we all seem to recognize the Prius as the most economical vehicle on the mass market today. So what! It is a great vehicle, but it is not a Volt.
+7
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:28 am)Although you are right in reality, the public perception is what is important here.
The on genset gas mileage number is the one that the un-informed public will be looking at. (most people out there)
To make this MORE tricky they are ALREADY programmed to think “Toyota good” and “Chevy bad”…
It HAS to be a good/excellent number or the competition will spin it to sound like the car is a failure.
The 230 mpg number is dangerous because although it should be very possible for most people to achive this there will be a few who will not due to driving habits/patterns and THEY could potentially be very vocal in their dissatisfaction.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:30 am)Absolutely.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:31 am)As i’ve said in previous posts, the way to get more savings is to be able to charge twice a day. 40 miles AER isn’t as good as 60 or 70.
If you charge while at work, or if you charge at home during the middle of the day before going out for more errands (drop kids off at school, run errands, charge car, pick up kids at school, go to activities etc.).
I assume the battery warranty of 10 years 150,000 miles will allow charging twice a day. Average of 15,000 miles a year is 41 miles a day. Achieving 150,000 miles of AER compared to a car that gets 40 miles per gallon is a savings of 3750 gallons. If the average gas prices over those 10 years (2012-2021) is $5, and the savings per gallon is $4, then you are saving $15,000 on your fuel cost.
I am quite confident gas will be over $5, and I can average well over 50 AER (with a daily recharge).
I would rather have a SUV where 50+ AER would have even greater fuel cost savings when compared to a SUV ICE.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:34 am)With all the sudden negativity here even by some regulars. Whether it achieves all that is claimed or expected, the Volt is the greatest current automobile concept out there. This one time I feel that the mileage guessing game on this site is a disservice to the Volt and not providing any true new insight to the progress of this car. An awful lot of “energy” is wasted on the guessing game.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:34 am)Am I correct in thinking that once the ICE kicks in in charge sustaining mode that the Volt’s range is unlimited so long as you stop to get more gasoline?
If so, this means that the electricity that the generator creates will always equal or exceed the demands of the car? How can they anticipate that with any precision?
This is an issue that GM has not been sufficiently clear about. A lot of people think that the “range extender” extends range to only the 300-mile mark and that after that you have to stop for several hours to charge the battery. This precludes long trips.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:35 am)Perhaps, but it WAS requested by somebody here a while back.
Actually I think it’s pretty interesting to see the results from this fairly well informed group.
There is a divide in opinion about the genset mode, some of us think they are keeping an ace up their sleeve and others are a bit more pessimistic about what is going on.
Interesting stuff Lyle!
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:36 am)I don’t know what the milage will be, I don’t think GM knows yet. The milage is very dependant on the software that controles the genset and that is still being worked on. The volt design has several advantages over the Prius but it also weighs 500 pounds more. Little wonder that GM is still scratching their heads on what the best balance is. I have to agree with those of you that suggested multiple modes that the driver can choose from. One of these modes could maximise the milage for PR sake though it may seldom be used in practice.
I wish people would quit saying that a Prius is half the cost of a Volt. This is simply not true – just ask anyone who has bought a real Prius. After the tax rebate the costs are not that far apart given a real world Prius.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:37 am)He DOES have a point… were I in Toyota’s marketing team that’s how I’d approach it.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:38 am)BillG
You want to bet that they will not do that. You must not have read many of the posts on this website supporting their 230 mpg announcement under the appropriate conditions.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:40 am)An excellent explanation of why GM MUST deliver >Prius MPGs in the CS mode!
PS: My post at 8:11 above wrongly refers to the CD mode. To restate it corrrectly, “….include both CITY & HWY figures for the Volt in CS mode”.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:42 am)If the electric transmission loss is kept reasonable 10-15% volt should get extremely good MPG in CSM. In essence it will be better then hypermiling Fusion hybrid (60-70 MPG). If they tune this thing right and make ICE turn off when it is not absolutely needed they should be able to get close to 100 mpg in city with defensive driving and 60-70 mpg highway at 50 mph and possibly 50-60 mpg at 75 mph. The bigest unknown now it the transmission loss but I can not imagine it to be much worse then mechanical transmission loss if anything it sould be much better.
My bets
1. City defensive driving 100 MPG
2. City regular driving 70 mpg
3. Highway 50 MPH – 70 mpg
4. Highway 75 MPH – 55 mpg
-5
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:47 am)Moo Cow…
PLEASE take an english course.
At least then your trolling wouldn’t be ‘quite’ as painful.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:49 am)I thought you had that backwards, but did not want to point it out. Thanks for doing the correction yourself. You are a “stand up” gentleman.
+7
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:50 am)“Itsgonna get ugly for the Volt really fast..”
Seeing as you are talking about the Prius..I assume that the “it” in the sentence is referencing the Prius…Are you are confirming that the Prius will get uglier…wow..now THAT is an engineering challenge…
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:50 am)Actually there is an “assist” in the Volt’s scheme. They have told us repeatedly that while in battery depleted mode the ICE will supply the power needed to drive the car, but the battery will also be tapped to assist in high power driving situations, like passing, climbing hills and accelerating from a stop. This is a key puzzle piece in understanding how it is that in charge sustaining mode, the Volt will still get around 50 mpg. As anybody who drives a Prius will tell you, your gas mileage is the worst during starting from a stop, climbing hills and passing other cars. These are exactly the times when the Volt’s ICE will get an “assist” from it’s sizable battery.
-4
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:51 am)I hope it is high or I think the Volt will have a hard time selling against othe high MPG rated hybrids. When you think of the MPG on a per tank basis, you will basically be getting whatever the generator mode MPG is, plus 1 “free gallon” for the 40 mile electric mode. If generator mode MPG is low, that will be negligible. So if the gen mode MPG was 40, you would get around 45MPG per tank. Not enough to justify the price tag.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:52 am)I agree! Thanks Lyle for the chuckle.
+8
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:53 am)Many of the comments here are way off base.
First of all the ICE in the Volt does not have to move 3520 lbs; it is only driving a generator that doesn’t weigh anywhere near the whole vehicle. it’s the electric motor that drives the vehicle not the ICE. GM engineers have designed newer internal combustion engines that get much better gas mileage and pollute far less. The ICE will be very efficient driving that “little” generator.
Second. the ICE wont be used that much unless you travel greater distances than 40 miles. Depending upon distance traveled, the ICE will not be subject to the ware and tear of your usual ICE vehicle. Drivers will find that they will be able to charge their EV,s along the way on trips; charge stations are already being designed and built to provide the EV user with opportunity to charge their battery while stopping at restaurants or just parking on the street. Municipalities are considering and in some cases have already built them in specified areas of the city.
Obviously, those making trash talk about how the Volt will never catch the Prius”, etc. are in for a rude awakening! And Lazp, you are right – “The first 40 miles rules”!
-7
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:56 am)Beating the Prius will absolutely NOT happen, as I have explained in the forums. The ICE-Transmission-Wheels drivetrain is more efficient than the ICE-Genset-Controller-Electric motor-Wheels drivetrain for steady highway driving.
Second, how about we get more scientific and get a graph of miles per hour of steady driving vs. miles per gallon? There can be several runs performed and the results can then be averaged and plotted. This way it can be compared to different hybrid drivetrains.
My prediction is that when driving at 70 mph the Volt will get 30 mpg or less and at least 5 mpg less than what the Prius gets.
Does anyone else want to put down their specific predictions? Like an office pool?
Finally, I have to say that I still think the Voltec drivetrain is excellent and has many advantages, just like an electric-diesel locomotive and a mining truck. I think that even though the Volt will not get great pure highway mileage that the typical use of the Volt will prove to be amazing. Most people that buy the Volt will have much more city driving and a reasonable distance to work. Some may only use a few tanks of gas a year!
We need to be realistic and each new potential Volt owner should take the time to evaluate what their driving patterns are to see how much the Volt will save them. For me, I just about get off of gasoline. What about you?
So, feel free to pile on the negatives. I have my reasons why I’m predicting low mpg at high speed, steady highway driving. What are your reasons for thinking they will be so much higher than the simple and most used drivetrain?
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:56 am)Tom:
No. you can driver as long as you want but your mileage will revert to the value of what you get from the ICE. The 40 initial electric mileage since charging will factor in your total miles driven at whatever mileage you will be getting (50mpg?) Essentially you are driving an ICE.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:57 am)To my understanding the gen. will kick in at 30% voltage remaining in battery pack , And will run at a RPM range that was been tuned for Max GPH (Gallons per hour) , So how far you drive does not matter .. What I am trying to say is this car should get a rating like a air plane Gallons per Hour ,, not gallons per mile . If the engine rpm’s stays the same and the engine burns 1 gallon a hour then if you are on the highway traveling at 75 mph then your gas mph would be 75MPH , but if you are slugging around the city and only go 35 miles then you would have a mph of 35 ( of course this engine would shut down in stop and go traffic so you would need to be watching the hours of operation that the engine is actuelly running).
Just food for thought…..
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:58 am)I’ll be pleasantly surprised if they get over 50 MPG with the engine they’re using. They can only optimize the current engine so far; because they either didn’t want to take the time or the money for the first gen for a specialized engine. Hopefully in the second get they will go with their original plan of using a specialized 1 liter turbocharged engine. Designed around the particular needs and capabilities offered to them with the series hybrid.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:58 am)I’d really like to see 50+ miles/gal but really, how is GM going to pull it off?
Probably I think closer to low 40’s because….
The Prius’ ICE energy is transmitted via a direct mechanical connection to the drive train = minimal losses.
The Volts ICE energy has to go through a generator and electronics and then to the electric motor – all those stages unfortunately mean around 15 to 20% losses.
The Volt has around 500 extra pounds in weight to carry around compared to the Prius
On the plus side:
The Volt has some fixed rpm bands, which may be a little more efficiently tuneable than the Prius.
The Volts battery will also be able absorb all the regenerative braking energy available.
The Prius only has a small battery and can and does top that battery out on occasion e.g. when going down a mountain. When this happens the regen. is disabled and all braking energy is wasted via the conventional friction brakes or by using the engine brake (the “B” setting on the shifter). The Volt would be a big winner in this instance.
The only way I can think of that the Volt can really make up ground on the Prius is if its aerodynamics are way better, but I am a little doubtful that this is the case.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:59 am)I believe the saying is along the lines of “Idle hands are the devil’s work”…
In the absence of actual news people will make their own.
An on genset test drive review by Lyle would go a long way toward calming concerns I bet.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:00 am)I have to agree as well.
These numbers – 40 mile AER and 50 MPG have been tossed around for almost three years, and are pretty much set in concrete.
They have to make those targets, and in the real world, not some rigged test with a 50 pound driver, and a 200 mph tailwind…..
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:02 am)Jake’ll get him.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:03 am)I agree.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:04 am)All indications are that the genset will make sufficent power to run the car as long as you feed it fuel.
The genset only needs to make the average power required of course, it can dip into the battery for uphill bits and can regen on downhill bits. The genset can generate more power than required on a flat road so it can drive the car and charge the battery at the same time.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:05 am)I think if it gets 40-50 mpg in a realistic setting that should be good enough. Obiously, 50 or better would be fantastic. I can’t see it getting over 50 mpg in city driving though. But I just want to re-iterate that unless you are an NYC taxi driver you shouldn’t need more than 30 or so all-electric miles per day anyway. If you do then that is a lot of city driving.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:05 am)Generator mode MPG doesn’t have to beat the Prius; it just has to come close. The Ford Fusion Hybrid doesn’t beat the Prius in MPG, but refinement and size still make it a hot seller and a critical favorite.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:06 am)nasaman:
I think you put too much emphasis on the Volt – Prius comparison.
If anything, GM/Chevy needs to differentiate those two models as much as possible.
GM advertising:
We have an electric car with a 40 mile range using the batteries and a gasoline engine backup to extend that range as needed.
They don’t…..
JMHO
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:06 am)With your betting pool can I also specify how far I am driving between charges? 40,50,60,70,100 miles between charges vs. any car other than a BEV. I am arguing that even with a less than great ICE mileage one can have a great overall mileage car depending on ones driving requirement. Yes some people will be perfectly be happy with a BEV alone with its limitations.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:07 am)FUD. Watch out for Jake.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:12 am)It sounds to me like Toyota is using the same FUD consultants as BIG INSURANCE and BIG PHARMA. It doesen’t have to be true, as long as you yell it long enough and loud enough.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:13 am)It will all depend on what test is used. If it’s nice and slow with lot’s of stops and starts and includes the 40 miles of battery charge and the length of the test is not that long than it could do it.
If it’s flat out at 70 mph and the clock starts AFTER the electric charge is depleted then no, it won’t make it.
However, as I explained above, it won’t matter for most drivers as the typical mpg will be amazing. If any of you have long commutes to work and will be driving at 85 mph then just forget the Volt and buy a good, aerodynamic diesel car. Oh, you might also want to consider moving closer to work because the cheap fossil fuel era is just about over.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:14 am)Everyone needs to specify the average speeds on the hwy.. the epa hwy cycle averages 48mph.. long distance hwy driving often averages 65mph even when you do 70mph.
5mph makes a huge difference in mpg at hwy speeds.
My guess?.. 50mpg at average speeds of 60mph
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:17 am)40+ MPG Highway
50+ MPG City
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:18 am)______________________________________________________
Lyle Asks:
“What will the series hybrid mode fuel economy be? And how important is that number to us?”
——–
My guess…
Sticker:
MPC (Miles Per Charge) City: 43
MPC (Miles Per Charge) Hwy: 39
ER-MPG (Extended Range MPG) City: 41
ER-MPG (Extended Range MPG) Hwy: 37
My ER-MPG numbers are lower than what my EREV Volvo/TATA friend predicts…he predicts ~49City, ~45Hwy. He is an engineer I’m not…but it’s just hard for me to believe the Volt can get a combined high 40s…it would be a sensational achievement for GM if they were somehow able to squeeze out those high ~40s numbers.
A masterful Graphic Lyle!…
That graphic is outstanding on so many nuanced levels both in meaning and graphic detail ( I just noticed the Voltec MPG related chalk math above the “Chevy Volt = 230MPG”.) You just raised the bar big-time…how will you ever out do that graphic? Please consider puting a link to a larger photo below the photo.
______________________________________________________
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:19 am)Thank you for making an apples to apples comparison. I was really getting tired of the comparisons of the most stripped down econo model to the Volt.
Sure you may not need all of the features the Volt is offering but it’s still only far to compare it to another care that has equal features.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:21 am)Texas, I value your opinion but think that the optimised engine speed possible in the Volt will turn around your arguement.
Even in my conventional AWD 2002 Subaru Impreza TS wagon 5 speed driving at an optimal speed returns really incredible gas mileage.
My best number was 12 litres used to cover 300km.
I’m not a hypermiler, heavy but steady traffic forced a very steady 80 kph for that drive. I was quite shocked at the result.
(At speed the car is normally closer to 20 litres for that drive.)
The Impreza is an excellent car, but has never been particularly good on fuel. The obviously pretty optimial engine speed made a truly dramatic difference in economy.
I think this will be the norm for the Volt.
+6
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:22 am)On a per tank basis – I will recharge that battery more than once. Given the the typical consummer drive cycle you are likely to recharge the battery 32 times before using up the gas in the tank.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:24 am)Agreed…see my post 12
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:24 am)Add Me To The T-Shirt List!!!!
But you should add Bob Lutz’s picture as well – maybe with an eraser in his hand to “correct” the math!!!!
HAHAHAHAHA!
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:26 am)And it is fun to stick your neck out and know there is no price other than pride to be paid.
I also enjoy the trools that would rather eat dog droppings and call them brownies than to say anything good about the Volt.
Some seem to think my old buick will do as well on the open road as the Volt will in CS mode.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:27 am)I wonder if GM asked Lyle to get a feel for what we think or want…..
It could happen…..
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:28 am)______________________________________________________
Does the Ajax Edit Comments Tool have a bug w/ Internet Explorer 8?
Lyle, FYI…since I upgraded to Internet Explorer 8, I noticed that the text box in the Ajax Edit Comments Tool keeps automatically scrolling up therefore making it almost impossible to edit any text below a first sentence.
______________________________________________________
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:30 am)I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT.
-13
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:31 am)(click to show comment)
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:32 am)How much over MSRP on the Volt are you guys going to do? How long do you think the wait for a Volt will be? It could look worse than what’s happening over at Toyota. IMO, mark ups and long waits could kill the Volt’s much needed early momentum. GM needs to be ready to build them to match demand and get them to people at MSRP if they hope to have the Volt be a game changer instead of just a limited run exotic novelty like the SSR was.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:34 am)Definitely a compromised engine choice. Remember that Maximum Bob never wanted that engine in the first place. The Volt was supposed to be GM’s response to the Tesla Roadster and NOT the mighty Toyota Prius.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:34 am)It won’t happen all the time.
I have IE 8 and it has happened to me just a few times.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:35 am)It seems to me the only thing that matters is the definition of the fuel mileage test and what will be printed on the car’s sticker.
+7
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:37 am)GM can do a heavily advertised contest “How Many Gallons of GAS Did My Volt Use This Summer”.. the actual numbers can be verified with a computer readout at a dealership.. the first 230 winning contestants get $10k and get their faces plastered all over a tv ad.
That contest would be huge publicity..
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:39 am)jeff j,
I believe that the ICE will turn off when you are at a stop sign or traffic light so that you wont be wasting gasoline. Besides that the greatest fact about EV is the efficient use of energy. When any of the above stated conditions exist or when at a standstill in a traffic jam, no electrical energy is being used. If we shut the ICE down at these times, no gasoline is used either.
Little has been said in these posts about regen. The way this works is really neat. When the electric motor is turning using the batteries energy, or that created by the generator, a magnetic field builds within the motor. Whenever, you slow down, or come to a stop, that electric field calapses. This causes a reverse flow of current within the circuitry. Electric components redirect this flow in the proper direction to recharge the batteries. In this way, electrical energy is recaptured.
These a few of the ways electric drive is superior to the ICE.
-7
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:42 am)Drop your racist hate and step away from your pewter for the benefit of mankind. You will be reported to the proper authorities.
-5
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:48 am)Maybe 40 MPG if they be lucky. The Volt is very HEAVY for its small size. Add 4 hefty Americans (i believe most Americans are obese from latest medical studies), crank up the A/C and add a little head wind and get on your knees and pray for 30 MPG.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:50 am)I think this car is of such importance to GM that they will not allow price gouging. How do you stop it? Simple, GM starts a web site showing all the dealers who are not gouging and incourage customers to go there.
Delivery becomes a long wait.—-I HOPE SO!! That would mean the Volt is a run away winner and the price will come down sooner rather than later
-8
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:53 am)The Toyota Prius is SMOKIN’ HOT right now. We can’t keep’em in stock. Toyota Dealers welcome all Obama stimulus dollars. Yeah Baby. I am looking at my biggest bonus this year at my dealership. We also sell the white hot Corolla for those non-hybrid types that got Clunker Cash.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:53 am)Now THAT’s positive!
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:53 am)Are you kidding? You must have missed the post here where Mr. Lutz wants to sell the first batch of VOLTs on eBay. He wants to cut the dealers out of the equation, at least for the first batch, as an ‘experiment’.
I can’t wait to read the CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) reports from eBay. Many believe GM is “too big to fail”… I believe eBay is “too big to give a rat’s A$$ about Customer Satisfaction”. THEY will not be the ones the customer returns to for any reason in the future, so they have NOTHING to lose. And don’t forget… early bidders on VOLT may end up paying FAR MORE than what a dealer would do.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:55 am)You got it, but Bruce B’s thoughts are what GM’s marketing is up against.
-2
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:56 am)Try the first 100 miles dude. The LEAF rocks !!!
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:57 am)The on genset gas mileage number is the one that the un-informed public will be looking at. (most people out there)
I’m a little confused why you or nasaman think the Prius comparison would be an issue. My impression is that no one will ever see the CS MPG number.
From what I’ve read the sticker will display separate kwh/100 mile numbers and separate MPG numbers. The important bit is that my impression is that the MPG numbers are derived using the PHEV methodology previously discussed, which credits the PHEV with the EV range when calculating MPG. Using this technology the City number for the Volt will be the 230 MPG number previously released, and GM has said the MPG number for Highway and Combined will both be in triple digits.
So I’m thinking any comparison of MPG will be, as it should, very favorable to the Volt. The Prius has MPG numbers of about 50 MPG in all modes. So it seems like the Volt’s MPG numbers will at least double the Prius’. Are you suggesting that in addition to the MPG using the PHEV technology there will also be MPGs for CS mode? I haven’t seen that anywhere but I’m hardly an expert. Have I missed something here?
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:01 am)That’s a cool idea!
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:03 am)It simply does not matter as long as it is not an aberration. The key point is the zero consumption for the first 40 miles. This is what will sell the Volt. Let’s be honest here; a person that can afford a car in the 30K-40K range can easily afford to pay for the gas.
The car will attract buyers, at least initially, on two main points in my view. First because it offers a totally unique and cool drive train technology that falls squarely in the environmental mindset. Second, because it (hopefully) offers a very refined driving experience. GM has no margin for error on the last one – the perception of quality/feel of the Volt will be critical for its success.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:03 am)I thought he was Grover from Sesame Street. Or Yoda with a bad hangover.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:03 am)I wontl be able to charge every night. Maybe every 3 nights I could take on a charge. I have a weird schedule and I’m in different places some nights. So the per tank estimate is closer for me.
Also if you were on a trip or vacation with the car, you might not charge for a week. So these MPG scenarios are important.
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:07 am)The Leaf rocks? Thats the shaking of the driver who tried to actually go 100 miles
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:07 am)Wait till the next election cycle when that subject comes up. Say it again: How many billions of dollars with that stupid program did he send OUT of the U.S. Economy by giving it to foreign automakers?!!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:11 am)It is really hard to say. We don’t have all the facts to make a judgment and there is nothing to compare with the Volt. The Prius is a different technology.
Given the last topic, it appears GM is pulling out all the stops to get it right. I think we are in for a very nice surprise — 50+ MPG is CS mode, perhaps even 60 – 70 MPG.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:15 am)Who cares? If you believe the GM banner, it’s apparently 23 mpg, as the smiling outlet clearly states.
If it’s 100% electric drive, such as the Volt is, with its built in strong acceleration, smooth and quiet peformance, expect:
Around 25 kWh / 100 miles (ca. 100 mpge) for the EPA window sticker. That’s the main thing consumers will see, if they even care.
Example: 2009 mini E EPA window sticker rated at 33 / 36 city / hwy kWh / 100 miles (102 / 94 city / hwy mpge).
http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/6559
mid 200s or higher for CAFE MPG, which is for automaker credits, not consumer information.
Example: 2008 Tesla Roadster CAFE rated at 244.0 MPG.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/07/corporate-average-fuel-economy-figure-for-tesla-motors-2440-miles-per-gallon.html
while in full EV mode.
If you want the most clarity on an EREVs efficiency as well as maximum efficiency, just use the extended mode as little as possible.
Also, what’s a plug in Prius, which is not 100% electric drive as currently configured, unlike the vehicles listed above, got to do with anything? That’s comparing apples and oranges.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:16 am)Thanks for the helpful insight.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:17 am)The power out of that “little” generator must be able to drive the car. That means it must put out enough power to drive the car and it must be cranked with even more power since the conversion from mechanical to electrical energy has some losses (ie: not 100% of energy is converted).
Therefore, turning that little generator to make the car run down the highway after the battery is down will require more power from the engine than simply driving the wheels from the ICE directly.
You cannot get something for nothing.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:17 am)“If so, this means that the electricity that the generator creates will always equal or exceed the demands of the car? How can they anticipate that with any precision?”
They can measure with extreme precision what all the components are making or consuming.. they do an average for the last few minutes and crank up the genset accordingly.. they also monitor battery state and adjust the charge level. The genset can take minutes to respond, very gentle.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:17 am)DonC,
What Nasaman and I are talking about is how the competition is going to spin the numbers.
Here on gm-volt.com we KNOW that the genset efficency is not as important as the AER, but the general public likely don’t.
SO… IF the Volt’s genset were to return say 37 mpg for arguments sake I STILL would get fantastic average mileage in the city since I will rarely exceed the AER during the week. IF you were Toyota’s marketing people you would tell the world that the Volt ONLY gets 37 mpg and that you are MUCH better off getting a Prius…
For this simple point alone the genset mileage absolutely needs to be 50 mpg. Even though in reality it won’t make much difference to most drivers most of the time.
I voted 50-60mpg in the poll.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:18 am)Interpolating respected engine performance from the Smart Car and its .7 L turbocharged 3-cylinder engine – with all peripheral loading; roadway variations, power brakes and steering dash electronics and HVC – 40 mpg must be an absolute minimum. And ensure not being overrun (pun) by competition. I’m in the 17% that voted 30-40 mpg. Imagine a 27.57 gal. tank means a true 1000 miles between fill-ups and if necessary between charges.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:18 am)You are correct. In fact, the site: http://www.camaro5.com did that very same thing about dealers gouging on 2010 Camaros. One reason why I’ve been ordering them for customers at MSRP (v6′s only).
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:18 am)Your point is a good one but $35.6K seems on the high side. Not everyone wants every option available, especially on a commuter car. I’d suggest the comparison is more like $28.5K Prius versus a $43K Volt. If you add the above MSRP premium to the price of the Prius you still get to $33.5K, which means that with the MSRP premium the prices are about the same. But keep in mind that a few years from now, when the Volt is being produced in numbers, the backlog for Prius orders will be gone and you won’t be adding that $5K to the Prius’ MSRP. (The 24 month wait seems extreme).
Having said that, comparisons using a Prius prices at $21K are silly. That basic $21K version of the Prius just represents a nervous reaction of Toyota to the Insight. The model has not even been released yet, and when released it will only be for fleet sales. You’re not going to see it in a Toyota showroom.
-4
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:21 am)The cruze may get 40 MPG highway there is no way it will get combined 40MPG I stake my life on it.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:25 am)Texas,
Two quick points, The ICE-Transmission-Wheels drivetrain is more efficient than the ICE-Genset-Controller-Electric motor-Wheels drivetrain for steady highway driving.
1) Does that mean the electric assist of the Prius has no controller to induce losses, 2) Transmissions induce losses, the Prius transmission is efficient, but the Volt doesn’t have one.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:25 am)Off topic but way cool.
The Leaf will let you control charging with your iPhone. Also the car may have an open source API for 3rd party developers to make apps for it. Do this GM!
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/08/controlling-electric-cars-nissan-leaf-with-apple-iphone.php
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:26 am)Texas,
Two quick points, “The ICE-Transmission-Wheels drivetrain is more efficient than the ICE-Genset-Controller-Electric motor-Wheels drivetrain for steady highway driving.”
1) Does that mean the electric assist of the Prius has no controller which would induce losses, 2) Transmissions induce losses, the Prius transmission is efficient, but the Volt doesn’t have one.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:26 am)Yes, that’s what I posted as well. I think people just read my first sentence, hit the negative button and move on. lol. That’s cool.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:29 am)Engineering issues and arguments aside, I’d say that when Tony Posawatz says “that was just the concept,” you have a pretty good idea that we’re not going to see 50 MPG during CS operation. If we were looking at a higher number I’d think the response would be more like “that was what the model projected but you always like to improve on the model.” The tone from both Posawatz and Weber seem to be telegraphing a lower number than some might be expecting or hoping for.
Personally the number isn’t of any importance to me, and I doubt that it will matter much to the general public. They’re going to focus more on the City/Highway/Combined MPG numbers. (I don’t think they’ll care about the kWh/100 mile number because a kWh is so cheap relative to what the price of gas).
//OT: I’ll second/third/fourth the compliments about Lyle’s graph. That is one very clever and funny Photoshop job.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:29 am)I don’t know about you but I drive for hours with the cruise control set at around 70 mph. I don’t drop below 65 mph unless there’s an emergency. Am I alone here? Then again, I don’t travel long distances that much. So, the Volt is perfect for my daily driving.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:32 am)A lot of us stopped using ebay a long time ago.
Even if I WERE in California I wouldn’t go there.
If the dealers don’t rip off the customers (charge MSRP) and actually perform with actual customer service (call when there is a delay and let the client know what is happening, silence is unaccepable) I will be a happy guy.
This is a wide spread industry problem not a GM specific one.
Car dealers usually make the customer feel like they have been ripped off. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I haven’t come across one in a while.
In my experience Subaru, Land Rover, BMW, Chevrolet, Chrysler, and Ford Dealers have been this way.
I don’t like Honda or Toyota so haven’t entered their dealerships to find out.
(No wonder I run my cars for a long time…)
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:33 am)Muddy,
While I agree with all of you (including Nasaman and DonC) I believe the genset MPG needs to be much greater than 50 because Toyota will be coming out with a plug-in Prius soon after (if not before) the Volt is introduced. I assume the plug-in Prius will be rated at much higher MPG numbers than the non-plug-in version on sale at present. Toyota will still be in a good PR position to battle for the minds of those who will not bother to actually use their brains to check things out for themselves. That lack of brain usage is partly to blame for Toyota, Honda and the rest to have gained such a sales position versus our on auto companies. People will always take the easy way out and let others do their thinking for them – at least the majority of people will. I am sorry to have to say such a thing, but sometimes the truth has to be said. IMO.
Edited: I did not intend to not credit Toyota, Honda and the rest for making superior autos for the past several decades. That certainly helped make it a “no-brainer”.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:36 am)Is the CVT + power split actually considered a transmission.
Lyle,
…Help! Slow connection. Sorry for multiple posts, functions aren’t working in the browser due to connection.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:37 am)Alex…..The transmission you are referring to is called “motor speed controller”…and as you know, with no mechanical involved. Very little power is lost with such a device. GM will most likely use a AC/3phase motor rated at 360 volts. Such a motor is ideal for cost and efficiency. By using a “speed controller” that controls hertz rather than voltage gives it instant torque starting from 0 rpm versus controlling the voltage. This setup gives it a big plus over the efficiency of a mechanical/hydraulic transmission.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:38 am)You are very likely correct, but those are stakes that one should not just throw out carelessly. You could come up short one day and the winner may just want to collect.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:38 am)Does that mean a driver needs to drive in the exact ICE sweet-spot? What if they want to drive at 75 mph instead of 60 mph (or whatever the optimal speed for the ICE is)? You see, you can’t just keep the ICE at the optimal load when the load changes.
There will be some voodoo magic using the computers but the fact is that the power output of the generator is going to need to match the power demands of the vehicle at whatever speed the driver wants to cruise at. That is why I ask for a graph of mpg vs. mph for long distances (after the battery is depleted).
I bet the resulting graph is going to be very surprising to many posters here. Let’s put up three lines, one for the Volt, one for the 2009 Prius (same size ICE) and one for the 2010 Prius (bigger ICE). Are posters up for the challenge or do I just get more negatives? The test seems fair to me.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:39 am)MRR says “I think the optimised engine speeds will make a huge difference in efficency.”
———————————-
That used to be a greater plus in my mind than it is now. The goal now seems to have shifted to being (or at least sounding) just like a “normal” car. I understand why, but one cannot optimize everything at the same time.
Incidentally, I don’t think of 32 mpg as pessimistic because it is more than most cars now achieve. The Volts main focus is not on high-mileage ICE performance, an important but still secondary mode of operation. It will be a considerable achievement if gm reaches 32 combined in CS mode in a vehicle that has so many design aspects controlled by what’s needed for the all-electric miles.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:40 am)I think you’re on absolutely the right track here (though I’m sure you meant 230 MPG rather than 23 MPG in the banner). GM is going to be pushing the 230 MPG number — and perhaps the triple digit Highway and Combined MPG numbers — and the MPG in CS mode will be buried and/or lost in the shuffle.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:40 am)It will be very easy to calculate the CS mode MPG when I get my Volt and drive it from NJ to FL.
I’ll fill up the tank and note how many gallons went in, in case GM doesn’t tell me the size of the tank.
After my first 40 miles or when I see the RPMs start to register, I’ll put the Volt on cruise control at 60 mph. When I go through half a tank, I’ll have a good idea of what the MPG is based on the distance I traveled in CS mode. Of course that will be highway mpg but that’s what I feel matters most for the Volt.
NPNS!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:40 am)Yes, I agree, as I have posted. Voltec is going to be amazing for most drivers.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:41 am)Although if these ‘other’ places are fairly consistant you can likely arrange plug availability right?
If you cannot then maybe there IS a better scenario for you, the Buick CUV maybe or a nice Cruise might be better.
Maybe even the Prius might work out better if you cannot regularly plug in.
You DO have to think this through, the value of the Volt IS the plug in.
On vacation I can plug in at the in-laws place without issue but public charging stations do not exist in my area as yet.
Having said all this I still bet for the 50-60 mpg range while on genset.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:42 am)Let’s face it Hybrids are just what they are Hybrids. The Volt is a pure electric, with a generator.
The Gen one volt is just the beginning. GM could in theory shut down two of the cylinders in the 4 cylinder ICE. Why not? They do it on the V8. It might operate a bit rough but with a balance shaft they could in theory safe fuel. Generate less heat loss.
The word hybrid to me is low tech or an intermediate technology. It’s a mix of technology.
I am an engineer and know that the general public has been bamboozled by Toyota advertising to think hybrids are hi-tech. When in reality they are not at all.
In 1960 when tube technology was not up to snuff with transistor they had Hybrid TV sets.
Where you had half Tubes half Transistors.
Now TV sets are full solid state.
No matter how Toyota spins the new prius its simply an intermediate technology.
GM needs to educate the public on how much more efficient an electric motor is.
Old commercials of the past used to educate owners and we need to get back to basic theory.
With the ability of using high efficiently gas turbines and other sources to charge the battery GM has a platform for the future.
With a high efficiently turbine in GEN2 volt it could have the ability to really make a difference. GM needs to form a contract with GE turbines.
GM also needs to look at using the heat from the ICE engine in cold months to heat the interior and to use heat pump theory when the AC load becomes strong.
Just my ideas!!
-4
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:42 am)If it’s lower than the Prius then they’re hosed. For those driving longer distances, the cost of the Volt is a turn off compared to a $23,000 base Prius. Which car really saves you on gas on an all petrol run? Set AER aside the Volt Loses.
GM better get those numbers up.
Sure AER is the attractive part but let’s say you range anxiety mongors forget to plug in more times than you should. You’re basically driving a less efficient on ICE vehicle than a base model Prius tha get ovr 50MPG (per john101010101….sorry bro, I cant remember your tag).
I can see people being lazy to plug in and just use it for the Genset mode gettin inferior milage.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:42 am)You are a busy little troll today…
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:45 am)We “know” from the 230 discussion that the Volt uses 25KWh per 100 miles in the tested city cycle and that the highway efficiency should be lower (30-35 KWh per 100 miles?). What we need to know is the efficiency of the generator. How many KWh per gallon will the Volt’s ICE/Generator provide? That gives you KWh per gallon and it is an easy calculation to get effective MPG for the Volt.
The generator efficiency should only vary with the set point GM decides to use as the generator is not directly pushing the Volt. If the optimal set point is at high RMP and high electic generation, then GM should run the generator at this single optimal set point to get maximum KWh per gallon. Sure, they could gradually ramp up to the optimal RPM to avoid harsh transitions, but that won’t impact efficiency much. If this setting generates more power than needed, the excess can charge up the battery a little bit before shutting down the ICE and reverting to full EV mode for a couple of miles. The need for multiple set points arises when the optimal set point is at low RMP and low electical generation. In this case, they will have to run at non-optimal set points when the power requirements are above the amount generated at the low RPM/low power set point. I think this is what GM is grappling with. Their choice of ICE/Generator was apparently made based on availability and cost as opposed to otimizing power generation efficiency. Hopeully, they will rectify this in Gen II Volts.
All that being said, when can I get me one of these Volts!
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:45 am)This topic has spurred quite a discussion. More negative than I would have imagined. Why is that?
Why is it that the fuel mileage in CS mode is this important? I just don’t get it. The only time we would even care is if we have already driven out our battery range. It would also have to be by a significant amount to have a real impact on the overall “trip mpg”.
How many people will do this on a routine basis? 5%?
If you do drive 100 + miles daily, and can’t intermittently charge during the day, the Volt maybe is not for you. Period.
For the other 95% of the public, this discussion is simply irrelevant. If GM has to concede 5% to the turbo deisels and the Prii, they should.
In fact, to avoid having to explain this to stupid people who don’t understand the Volt’s advantages, find this info out up front and then SHOW them where to buy what they need. After all, the Volt’s “overall mpg” will be astronomical for the other 95%. They don’t need to expend extra cost and energy making the case to the 5% daily extra long mileage drivers, who would only end up angry anyway and likely feel they were “snookered”. And obviously make a big fuss about it – and give GM an undeserved black eye in the media.
Afterall, people/media look for any way possible to paint GM in a bad light. Why should GM serve them up on a platter? If you drive more than 100 miles a day and can not intermittently charge during the day, GM should not even let you buy a Volt.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:45 am)I put all of my calculations in the forum section. If you challenge the values, feel free to put up your estimations there so we can hammer out the details.
+6
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:46 am)The champ of what ??
Ugly design? dullness? Boredom?
That was comical……..
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:47 am)If you can run a normally aspirated engine at it’s sweet spot most of the time, a turbocharged engine will not do any better. Plus the fact that GM has already said such an engine would weight as much, because of it’s additional associated components.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:48 am)#17 Lee –> I hope what you say turns out to be the case, but I doubt it. The Prius is a wonderful design, and HSD is a wonderful way of combining gas and electric. The Volt also has a wonderful design and a major part of that is the AER. When one excludes the all-electric portion of the Volt’s design, the remainder, considered alone, is likely to be still very good but much closer to present vehicles.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:48 am)The Volt will handily beat the MPG numbers of the plug-in Prius because the Prius will still be using the ICE during the City and Highway cycles. You can see that in some of the papers which have published findings about the MPG for the Hymotion plug-in Prius.
This is actually what the methodology for PHEVs was designed to do — compare different PHEVs. I think it does a great job of that. Where the methodology gets weird is when you compare the MPG numbers you get from it with the MPG numbers for conventional ICE vehicles or standard (not plug-in) hybrids. That’s something of an apples and oranges comparison.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:48 am)Absolutely!
I strongly believe Frank and team have a gas mileage ace up their sleeve that they are waiting to play closer to rollout.
I think that 50+ mpg is well in hand.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:48 am)If they can convince people that they will hardly ever use gas, they might just go down the street to buy a Nissan LEAF. Sure they can’t go on road trips, but someone with a $40,000 Volt probably has a second car anyway for road trips.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:53 am)Not to worry brother. I’m not buying any cars on ebay. No way, no time, no how.
-9
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:53 am)39 MPG.
Okay, i just pulled that number out of my stinky butt however it should be as good a guesstimate as any of you smarty pants can make.
Take me to your house.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:54 am)CDAVIS,
Your post just clarifies the situation GM is in with this car. Assume the sticker does say exactly what you posted. Numbers ranging from high 30′s to high 40′s. Then walk over to a Prius and see a sticker that has two numbers, 50 and 50 (or whatever they are).
I don’t think the public is smart enough to realize what they are looking at. Where is the visual advantage for the Voltec?
How does this show the Volt gets better “fuel mileage” than the Prius? This is marketing 101.
For all the negativity generated days ago, the 230 MPG number (or something similar) is what needs to be on the window somewhere.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:54 am)But the argument has always been “Range Anxiety” and ho the Volt relieves that.
“How many people will do this on a routine basis? 5%?”
If the volt can’t deliver to this promis then it shouldn’t be advertised and boasted that it can.
“Why is it that the fuel mileage in CS mode is this important? I just don’t get it.”
Because there is the rest of the 20% that travel more than the 80% that don’t. Also many will use it it as their primary vehicle for commute and/or long vacation trips. If the Volt can’t deliver this then Why advertise and boast about it?
“For the other 95% of the public, this discussion is simply irrelevant. If GM has to concede 5% to the turbo deisels and the Prii, they should.”
I understood the design was for the 80% of the market that did not drive over 40miles on a per day bassis. This leaves 20% not 5%. Hence the range extender.
“They don’t need to expend extra cost and energy making the case to the 5%”
lol….
That’s the 5% that can pool together for a class action lawsuit claiming GM misinformed or advertised/lied on their promis of what they bought. Sucks a$$ but it’s the truth. There’s always a stuipd frivoulous lawsuits that a lawyer will take on, especially if they want to make a name for themself.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:56 am)To me the opportunity with the Volt is to expand the market into a broader segment of car sales, not to subdivide the small percentage that is Prius sales.
That is, Volt has to appeal to some of the 98%, not the 2% who have already made their choice.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:57 am)IF you were Toyota’s marketing people you would tell the world that the Volt ONLY gets 37 mpg and that you are MUCH better off getting a Prius…
I don’t think Toyota is going to spend much effort arguing about official MPG numbers. In fact I don’t think any manufacturer sees much benefit to talking about anything other than the benefits of their models. Prius Fanboys maybe but not Toyota.
An important point to keep in mind is that the Prius is doubtless a better buy for people who don’t drive much. Someone driving a hundred miles a week is never going to use the Volt battery fully enough to justify the expense. Some people here think that if you drive more than 40 miles a day then the Volt isn’t a good idea, but in fact the more miles you drive the more you utilize the battery, and the more you utilize the battery the better the better the Volt is at displacing gasoline.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:58 am)nasaman — It doesn’t seem to me likely that the sticker is going to show any separate numbers for CD mode. The point of the sticker, right or wrong, is to have a few composite numbers, and for Volt that is going to be 230 city, whatever hwy, and 125+ combined.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:00 pm)Jim I on staying away from Volt vs Prius —> I completely agree. Rather than try to divide up a small percentage of total sales, the opportunity of the Volt is to attract peope from the other 98%.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:01 pm)DonC on “never see” —> Yes, you are right.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:03 pm)Reread my argument, CaptJack.
The issue is the negative effect on “overall fuel mileage” based on a low CS mode MPG.
My point is that the only way this even matters is if you drive WAY over 40 miles per day, and can not intermittantly recharge.
20% don’t do this, drive WAY over 40 miles per day. I bet only 5% do, and also are unable to recharge intraday. You and I are talking apples and oranges.
To your argument: the Volt will deliver exactly what it is advertised to deliver, and the conditions required for making the claim will be revealed as well. Just like any other car.
I don’t see how GM can be held responsible for fuel mileage (lower OR higher) if the Volt is used outside of those conditions. Just like any other car.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:03 pm)That’s a fair question.
Of course if you drive 75 mph here I can all but guarantee a nice chat with a Mountie! (They don’t generally have much of a sense of humour about the whole thing!)
This is of course a lot of guesswork since we really don’t have solid numbers but I’ll take a stab at it.
So running at 75 mph, I really don’t know what a volt will draw so lets guess 30kw OK? (I remember the 53 kw @ 100 mph number from someplace but can’t find the reference right now.) For the purposes of this example the actual number doesn’t really matter.
Lets say there is a ‘sweetspot’ that makes 33kw at say 2500rpm and another that makes 28kw at 2200rpm. (Once again guessing because we don’t have numbers but I think it makes sence even if the numbers are off.)
The genset runs at the 2500 rpm until the battery hits say 35% and then slows to 2200 rpm and slowly blends in a little extra from the battery to give a steady 30 kw output. The near silent genset makes this unobtrusive. When the battery hits 30% it would go back to 2500 rpm and the cycle continues.
My semi educated guess.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:03 pm)“The Volt is a pure electric, with a generator.”
The Volt is a “Series Hybrid” by principle and operates as so. It’s a Hybrid, multiple sources of propulsion either direct or indirect.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:08 pm)I think that the genset pedal ‘follow’ is going to be from one ‘sweet spot’ to another and I remain optimistic about efficency numbers.
You are right too that 32 mpg is nothing to scoff at, but for marketing purposes it has to be at least as good as the Prius on the genset.
Time will Tell!
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:09 pm)The difference is that I LIKE Grover and Yoda!
-3
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:12 pm)With this, what is up?
Swollen, my head is.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:12 pm)I agree. It will be lost in the shuffle, since to most people, it is irrelevant.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:14 pm)“The Volts ICE energy has to go through a generator and electronics and then to the electric motor – all those stages unfortunately mean around 15 to 20% losses”
But remember that those are electrical losses, and not load / efficiency losses on the ICE. the ICE drive the gen set..period. not the wheels, not the car, not the (fill it in)..JUST then gen set. If it produces 50kw at maximum fuel efficiency, you have 50 kw. Electrical transfer losses to the electric motor is negligible (less than .5%), it is the conversion loss from electric motor to drive that is higher. and those losses are there EVEN IF THE ICE IS OFF.
so if you can drive 100 miles 50kw @45MPH, your MPG is 100 (totally random out of my a$$ #s to examplify)
It must be remembered..
1- the ICE does not drive the car, just the GENSET
2- the energy losses are from the ELECRTIC motor to the drive.
3- those lossesa re there ALL THE TIME. it does not magically increase when the ICE is running. The ICE simply replaces the cord in your garage, providing power to the battery
4- power losses from gen set to batt, batt to motor will be less than 0.5% at ALL TIMES.
whe you factor all this in…the ICE can be VERY efficient.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:16 pm)Only 2% of the Cash-For-Clunkers claims made so far have been paid.
What happens to every dealer if the gov’t decides to turn on a dime and cancel?
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:17 pm)But GM’s value proposition and main selling point of the Volt is the range extender!! What you are arguing for is a BEV by saying you should not drive past 100 miles a day. The Volt can be driven as a normal car, that means anyone can and should buy it.
If you want to drive all electric and will never go past 40 miles without charging, why in the world would you buy a Volt and not a way cheaper BEV?
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:18 pm)This is a repost of a reply..everyone is commenting on electrical conversion losses…
Remember….that those are electrical losses, and not load / efficiency losses on the ICE. the ICE drive the gen set..period. not the wheels, not the car, not the (fill it in)..JUST then gen set. If it produces 50kw at maximum fuel efficiency, you have 50 kw. Electrical transfer losses to the electric motor is negligible (less than .5%), it is the conversion loss from electric motor to drive that is higher. and those losses are there EVEN IF THE ICE IS OFF.
so if you can drive 100 miles 50kw @45MPH, your MPG is 100 (totally random out of my a$$ #s to examplify)
It must be remembered..
1- the ICE does not drive the car, just the GENSET
2- the energy losses are from the ELECRTIC motor to the drive.
3- those lossesa re there ALL THE TIME. it does not magically increase when the ICE is running. The ICE simply replaces the cord in your garage, providing power to the battery
4- power losses from gen set to batt, batt to motor will be less than 0.5% at ALL TIMES.
whe you factor all this in…the ICE can be VERY efficient.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:20 pm)not the same Mitch (me ) as post 12 and a few replies in cluding a repost at (the current) end here
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:20 pm)With Toyota, it’s not the options that people necessarily want, but what is made available for sale that counts. When the troll(s) come with their infamous $25K Prius comparisons, I usually (when I care) tell them to take it if they can find it.
Toyo doesn’t make money selling stripped-down cars to Americans (anymore).
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:21 pm)You understand you actually loose more energy in mechanical component of a car then you loose generating electricity? Only a fraction of the energy of an ICE is sent to drive the weals. All the rest is lost in eat, friction, etc…
It is actually more efficient to use an electric motor. This means the over all energy efficiency is higher in a REV.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:22 pm)Compare “average” energy requirement to “peak” energy requirement, and you may find that you can get by with very little from the ICE at any given moment. The battery isn’t shunted off when it’s 40 miles is done; it’s still there to buffer the generator for starts (and recover energy from stops).
-3
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:23 pm)Charge sustaining mode?
Is that the new politcally correct term for gasoline sucking/pollution spewing mode
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:24 pm)CaptJack,
This is silly.
“Set the AER aside”??? Did you actually type this? You can not do that if you want to have a real discussion about the Volt. Sorry.
Your tone is negative on the Volt because of “lazy people” not plugging it in? Really??
There are lots of ways to disparage the Volt, but simply “setting aside” the advantages of the VOLT to make an inferior comparison to a Prius is rediculous.
By that token, I will have to say my Blazer is a better car than the Prius. Setting aside the fuel mileage, I get more people in it, more stuff in it, its faster, and its 4WD. The Blazer is the clear winner!
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:25 pm)You could be right, but I think that GM will be MUCH better off if that door is closed.
Right now Toyota pretty much has the ultra efficency market to itself, since the Insight is a disapointment in every review I have seen.
The Volt is going to have them on their toes.
It’s quite possible Toyota could go negative in their ad campains.
It works in politics doesn’t it?
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:27 pm)I think that the Volt should have the same or better performance as other $40K + vehicles.
Chevy Volt’s MPG in Generator Mode is important; however for the cost, the Volt should have the acceleration of comparable priced vehicles. Also if a lower MPG in Generator Mode could protect the battery pack more, my vote is to lower it. 40-40-40 has good ring to it…of course like everyone else let’s hope the price is less than 40 ($40K).
40 AER 40 city/ 40 highway
The Prius has user selectable performance modes to select your style of driving. The Volt could have same thing.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:27 pm)What’s the MPG of a Prius if you take the battery out?
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:27 pm)Like cycling the RPMs? I bet that would be distracting. Then again, I don’t know how those software guys will run things. Cycling the battery like that for hours seems doable but how does that effect battery life? Will we know for 5 years? There is also some efficiency loss when storing energy in the battery and then extracting that energy. Nothing is for free.
Anyway, I guess we will need to have the car in our hands to do the testing and do the comparisons. Frank? You got one to spare?
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:28 pm)Don’t forget the Volt’s improved aero (vs. Cruze).
Plus, if we’re talking CS mode on the highway… although it may happen less often, there may be a bit of regen braking benefit as well.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:30 pm)ME TOO
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:30 pm)True, but I am not sure the Prius will not be a little roomier than the Volt due to the leg room in the back and the use of the full width back seat. I have found the leg and head room very good on my multiple Prius test drives. We will have to wait and see just how roomy the Volt is. The Volt will be the better vehicle once you overcome the higher price and think about the long term fuel savings, etc.
+6
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:31 pm)Patrick,
You also need to reread my post.
I did not say you should NOT drive past 100 miles per day.
I said if you “routinely” drive past 100 miles per day.
The range extender is exactly that, a range extender. It is used to alleviate any and all range anxiety issues. For all lengths of drives, any day, anywhere, anytime.
If you intend to use the range extender during a significant part of your drive, on a DAILY BASIS, perhaps the Volt is not for you.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:32 pm)I have a 9.8 mile 1 way commute. I think I will blow the 230 MPG away.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:35 pm)I feel so USED!!!
hehheh.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:35 pm)I am not too sure that the fossil fuel was ever “cheap”. Even when I was a little kid and gasoline was about $.29/gal the cost to fill up a tank still took a lot out of your weekly budget. During those time a lot of people worked for less than a $1.00 per hour. I can remember some wages paying less than $.50 per hour. It is all relative, I suppose.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:35 pm)I believe I have read on this site (not recently) that the next engine will be one designed from scratch for use as the generator of an EREV. Displacement was to be 1 liter (no other information was available). This was cited as “Gen III,” but they have since said that improvements to Voltec would not be released in literal generational models, but would be gradually incorporated (with priority given to those improvements which lower costs for the same performance benchmarks).
Even so, I’d expect something so radical as a change of engine would be segregated over a model year, when it is ready.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:36 pm)Correct. Its called a deadband. That way your ICE can stay at the sweet spot for as long as possible. Of course there will always be some Pike Peak scenario that wont allow for that, but most of us will only need extra power from the battery during short accelerations.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:37 pm)Er, did you look at the banner? It clearly states 23 MPG, with a smiling outlet stating it. Very clever of GM.
http://www.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.1362294.1250024899!image/1102937549.jpg_gen/derivatives/display_600/1102937549.jpg
The not so subtle point there is that the MPG metric is old toast, last century’s game.
What matters from here on out is 100% electric drive, however you want to configure/fuel/energy carry it. If you got 100% electric drive, you’re the sh!t. If you don’t got it, you ain’t got jack sh!t.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:37 pm)Me too, but at a lower speed of 50 MPH.
Although I drive much farther than you do on a daily basis.
I am still amazed at how much gas I save doing that speed.
Prior to last summer, I was regularly doing 80- 90 MPH.
But with the gas prices and my intense dislike for Middle Eastern governments, I have slowed down.
The Volt is so important to many people on so many different levels.
I truly hope it gets over 50 MPG with the ICE on. This cars needs to be really impressive.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:37 pm)The varible that we do not yet know is what the efficency gains will be by decoupling the engine from the wheels so it can run at optimised speeds.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:38 pm)True the Cruze will be 40mpg hwy. But the way the Volt is run the hwy and city numbers should be close. And the hwy numbers from the Cruze are more relevent than the city when comparing to the Volt because the Cruze doesn’t have regen braking and it’s engine doesn’t shut off when stoped.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:39 pm)Nothing different there, Muddy. About usual for our group. It is that way with most groups, I guess. Optimist and pessimist. They inhabit all groups.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:39 pm)I suppose you could be right. Stranger things have happened, I bet.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:41 pm)I do not think so. The Prius motor still needs to move through the RPM range to move the Car. That is something the VOLT will not have to do. Even in the city the VOLT in CS mode will be like cruising down a straight hiway in Cruise Control.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:43 pm)Texas,
I have thought about moving closer. But I work on Connecticut’s Gold Coast. The houses here are triple and quadruple the price I paid for mine. Trust me, it will take a lot of fuel to make up for $500k – $750K.
And unfortunately, there aren’t any jobs in between where I live and where I work.
But I really really really want a Chevy Volt.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:43 pm)>> The 1.4L will get crappy mileage
>> atrocious emissions
Proof, or GTFO.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:44 pm)No matter how Toyota spins the new prius its simply an intermediate technology.
———————————————————————————–
Hmmm….the Prius went on sale in 1997 in Japan…so 12 years already…making a profit as I understand now. The Volt is not even released yet…and is speculated to cost significantly more…and at a loss to GM. While most people could pay 1-2 times more for a cell phone (think iPhone), it is a totally different story with cars.
Somehow I think that the Prius will continue to do just fine for years to come…unless a significant breakthrough in cost of electrical energy storage occurs. In which case Toyota’s HSD is scalable to plug-in…which is already being worked on.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Baby seals! Can’t beat ‘em!
Oh wait, you CAN… it’s not very nice though.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:45 pm)Hey, if begging works, go for it.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:47 pm)OK, Old Man. You win the begging contest. Hands down!
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:49 pm)Dodge Grand Cherokee? WHAT? I thought Jeep made those.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:52 pm)“If the carbon saturation theory holds any weight it appears I can also kill you with my Volt.”
———————————————–
Shock, we should be so lucky. Way to tell him.
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:53 pm)no…but if you need a frame of reference…
it is similar to the prius almost ANY time you dirve it over 30 MPH, or need quick acceleration……
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:54 pm)You guys know you can put whatever you want in the Einstein chalkboard generator right?
http://www.hetemeel.com/einsteinform.php
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:55 pm)MuddyRoverBob, I think you have nailed how the generator and the electric motor are going to interact, both in highway and city CS driving. I don’t think the passenger will be able to tell when the generator powers up and down on the highway, the difference will be so slight. I also think that it is possible that the generator will shut off entirely in low load situations, like if you are driving 35 mph for more than a few minutes. But as soon as you accelerate away from a stop sign or climb a hill, the gen will come back on.
Lithium Ion batteries don’t have memory effect problems like NiCad batteries did, so charging and depleting from 30% to 35% shouldn’t cause undue wear on the battery.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:55 pm)The new modern engines are pretty darn smooth, I bet all you would notice in the cabin at 75 mph would be the tach changing (assuming there IS a tach of course) There will still be road and wind noise.
You are right of course we can’t take this discussion much farther without a real world test.
With all respect my friend I hope you are wrong on this point and the on genset mileage is 50-60 mpg!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:57 pm)I think that’s why it would be great to integrate the NAV system into the logic. That way IF Pikes peak is on your route the car can prep for it.
+6
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:57 pm)I still think this conversation shows people don’t have the right idea. If you are driving any significant number of miles on the ICE, you probably shouldn’t buy the car. The ICE on the Volt should be used for conditioning the battery, doing those few extra miles that you didn’t plan for, and occasional long trips.
The idea should be to maximize the AER by charging during the day. Charge at work. Charge at home between errands, but try and plan your day to finish at 30% charge so you can charge overnight with the cheaper electricity.
The whole point of the volt should be to minimize using the ICE, but have the ICE to condition the battery and provide a buffer OCCASIONALLY.
Start getting your work places to install charging stations.
Aug 18th, 2009 (12:59 pm)Certainly!
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:01 pm)My family will be happy with an EREV Orlando achieving 45mpg ICE with an initial 35 miles battery range. A four seat sedan is a tougher sell for us.
As far as the Volt goes. I stick with my aforementioned guesstimates. Electric motor drive, wind tunnel tuned, low roll resistance tires, “sweet spot” E-support system, small fuel tank, lack of transmission unit.
Initial battery range 38-60 miles
highway mpg (70mph) 50-56 miles
__________________
Here’s some food for thought. The world of yachts has gone though heavy R&D over the years. Trying to get more and more speed from the hull. One innovation used in America’s Cup racing was a fish scale type coating for the hull with produced about a 1/2 mph increase over the standard smooth plastic surface. Another huge innovation was the winged keel.
Why use a winged keel? Because the winged keel creates a small amount of lift. In effect, making the boat lighter. And therefore faster.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see NGMCO work a bit of lift into the final design of the Volt.
yes we can?
=D~
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:03 pm)Also notice the difference between 50mpg and 40mpg is really pointless. If you drive 10,000 miles in a year, you are talking about a difference of 50 gallons of gas (or $125). The RE-mode MPG number is only important if you want to remove most of the battery from the Volt to reduce its cost and just basically have a car the runs in RE mode all the time.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:03 pm)Stop it, you’re hurting me.
=D~
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:05 pm)I get 27 MPG in my AWD RAV4 with 3rd row seats carrying 4 people and gear at 70 MPH. The Prius gets well over 40 MPG (I have a friend with a 2009 Prius that claims 50 MPG in those conditions). I’ll go with 43-47 MPG in CS mode even at 70 MPH.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:06 pm)I would like to hear more about Volt Gen 2 genset. What is under consideration?
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:08 pm)Look, I’m a good example.
CASE 1: I drive 100 miles per day for my commute. Without recharging intraday, thats about 60 miles in CS mode. If MPG in CS mode is ~40mpg, then I will get ~67mpg daily with a Volt. Certainly great, but not a significant improvement over, say a homely Prius.
CASE 2: Now if I can recharge during the day, which I WILL, now I’m going ~80 miles electric and ~20 miles in CS mode. Using 40mpg for CS mode, I will get the equivalent of ~200mpg on my daily commute with a Volt. No range anxiety ever.
That’s a screaming deal for me. Even in the first case its a deal, just not a screaming deal.
CASE 3: You drive 150 miles per day, no intraday charge. 110 miles in CS mode will deliver a daily equivalent of ~54mpg with a Volt. Should this person buy a Volt?
The point is should GM try to sell a Volt to people following case 1, case 2 AND case 3? Or should they send the case 3 people elsewhere? What about case 1?
It is a serious matter of educating your customers so they know EXACTLY what to expect with a Volt.
I don’t see anything wrong with sending people who are not in the targeted purchase population somewhere else. Especially if it avoids serious potential negative publicity from uneducated consumers. GM may even come out looking super customer-oriented.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:08 pm)Interesting piece from yahoo auto…
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/107535/volt-vs-prius-which-wil-be-cheaper-to-drive??mod=family-autos
=D~
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:13 pm)I don’t know if my daily drive were over 100 miles, I would still drive a Volt. I’d do my best to charge at night. Then I would either move closer to my work or see if I could plug in there.
People living in rural areas where one family member commutes to a nearby city for work could still benefit since 40 of the first 50 miles is electric.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:13 pm)WOW… we really are going down the rat hole now aren’t we?
We have genset mileage guesses from 23 mpg to 100 mpg!
The frustrating bit is that even Frank and team can’t yet know exactly where it will end up!
I’m almost missing the ‘fairy dust’ and ‘unicorn horn’ chats!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:14 pm)Exactly right.
This has been a disheartening conversation today.
Lots of education still needed.
And a recognition that the Volt will not be ideal for everybody. Just like any other car.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:15 pm)Is there no data from Fisker on their Karma w/essentially the same concept as the Volt? What is their MPG in RE-mode?
This is all i find on the website:
A fully-charged Karma burns no fuel for the first 50 miles. Venture further and the gasoline engine turns a generator to charge the lithium ion battery. Once the 50-mile electric range has been exceeded, the car operates as a normal hybrid vehicle. This balance of electric and gas range makes it entirely possible that Karma drivers who charge their car overnight and commute less than 50 miles a day will achieve an average fuel economy of 100 mpg (2.4L/100km) per year.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:16 pm)Actually, back in the 80′s and early 90′s, gas was less than a dollar a gallon. So, during that period it certainly was relatively cheap.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:17 pm)Of course, but comparisons are inevitable.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:22 pm)OT.
Gm to make a $4000.000 micro car…
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/4000DollarCarFromGM.aspx
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:24 pm)THAT is cool!
Lyle you still rock!
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:26 pm)intersting link..but I see they are comparing the base prius and not one similarly equipped.
at least they say even the Prius may not make sense versus say a Cobalt XFE…
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:27 pm)The author forgot to mention the Volt also charges from regenerative braking. He also didnt make the comparison between the driving experience of a Volt and a Prius. What’s the payback period on a Lexus?
-4
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:28 pm)I believe that at highway speeds, 60 to 70 mph, on level ground, the ICE will run constantly. They have already mentioned the difference between the max output of the generator (smaller value) and the max input of the motor (larger value). This tells us that they have already optimized the engine/generator size for the target “cruise” velocity (the theoretical optimal speed) when they chose the non-turbo version of the ICE. So, in theory at least, it will have to run steadily (and toward the top end of its RPM range) to maintain highway speed.
Given this steady state case, there is just no way that the Volt drivetrain design is going to be as efficient as the Prius/Insight designs. The direct mechanical coupling of the Prius/Insight designs is always going to be more efficient than the engine/generator/motor design of the Volt.
And nobody seems to be hearing this so I’ll repeat it yet again; why do you think that GM is not reporting the MPG in CS mode? Why have they not let reporters ride in an IV during CS mode? Why have they not turned an IV over to any outsider for a technical evaluation? The only plausible answer is because the news isn’t that good!
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:29 pm)he has a jeep and a caravan..cross polination = new breed of 4×4 minivan, the dodge grand cherokee!!
the red heaedd step child
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:32 pm)The way the poll is presented is inadequate. The charge sustaining fuel economy will be different between city and highway driving.
City – I’d guess about 45mpg
Highway – Looking at GM’s numbers and the size of the tank, I think we’re looking at 38 to 39.
The poll would also have, I think, a radically different profile if it was broken down to 34 or less, 35 to 44, 45 to 54, 55 to 64, 64+
An even better way to do this would be to allow people to enter values directly. That would tell us a lot about expectations for the Volt.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:34 pm)Remember, if the battery ever gets too full for some reason (like if you are on a really long downhill with the ICE running) from excess juice being generated by the ICE, it can always shut off, and then restart once the battery drops down to 35%. It will not burn more gas then is necessary.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:36 pm)Wow, N. Riley. You remember 29¢ ?
The cheapest I remember is 40¢.
I think that was sometime in the very early 1970s.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:39 pm)GM needs two things
A wind generator port option for 3k on the front to charge the battery.
If you live in a windy area CA coast by the end of the work day you will have a full charge.
Think of the wind blowing by your car when its parked.
Second
Inductive charging. A coil you drive over in your garage so you dont have to plug in.
Sure there will be some minor loss but its easy and fast….
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:40 pm)For electric motors, weight is not that much of an issue, at least not as much as aero drag. The Tesla weighs way more than the ICE Lotus Elise sister car, but it still destroys it in speed.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:41 pm)You guys are all grim today. Is it still Monday somewhere?
I picked ‘doesn’t matter’ because it just doesn’t.
The Volt DOES NOT compete with the Prius and comparison to any econo-box is a waste of time. It competes with other $40k+ 4-door sedans like Lexus, Mercury, Volvo and BMW (and others).
Anyone who pays $40-$50k for a car is not so concerned about absolute mileage in some crazy-theoretical-imaginary trip. They are more concerned about service, excitement, service, exclusivity, service, TCO, service, residual value and customer service.
I am thinking that the first-gen Volts will be collector’s items and will APPRECIATE in value unlike almost all other cars. GM should go with Harley’s plan and guarantee future trade-in value equals initial cost.
And to close…
The Volt DOES NOT compete with Prius. They are in totally different pricing classes.
Just give/sell/lease me a Volt and I will run some tests for y’all!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:42 pm)OK, I think have an interesting varible in this scenario.
During the week with the exception of Thursdays when there is extra driving the Volt could run full electric all week.
On the weekends we fairly routinely drive to the mountains hiking/skiing/etc.. minimum 300 km, max about 1400 km.
(Did the 1400 km loop last weekend with the 3.1 litre Chevy Malibu on about 70 litres of gas sticking to the speed limit using cruise.)
The Volt will be our primary car, I expect it will do much better.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:43 pm)So millage is a function of storing energy
Use the energy around you.
GM should think about solar….. option I know would take a week to charge
— Shocks of the car generate heat put magnetic in them to generate electricity. So the more bumpy the road the more electricity you produce.
– Wind generator option. If you live in a windy areas use the energy to charge the battery.
– Bicycle petals in the back seat for your kids lol…
Keep the kids in shape on long trips and charge your battery!!
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:48 pm)So figure how many miles you do AER. To buy a volt as opposed to some other $40,000 car, you better drive 15,000 miles a year AER or you are not making a good decision.
The folks that can charge during the day and maybe get 20-30,000 AER will be the winners.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:49 pm)KUD is spot-on. The Volt’s engine/generator is a highly tuned machine specifically designed to eek every last kilowatt hour out of every drop of gasoline burned. That’s not the case with the HSD system. HSD inherently requires that the engine operate at less-than-optimal ranges to provide peak power during periods of peak demand. The efficiency losses due to the non-optimal RPMs are enough for a few MPG, so it’s easy to assume that the Volt will be at or above the Prius. That’s the design and the reason for a few chosen sweet-spot RPMs and power levels. When engine power output is perfectly matched to driving load through electronics and buffered by the battery, great things will happen.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:54 pm)Me too. I don’t know how to interpret GM’s statements, are they being coy or are they trying to hide something that they know the public will jump on like idiots to proclaim the Prius’s superiority? I can see their statements either way. It would be AWESOME if “that was the concept” means, “Lyle, the concept was a brick. We get way more than 50 mpg now”. I can kinda see this because aero dominates on the hwy, but then again I don’t know why they would be so secretive if the number was really high.
I voted 40-50 mpg, but I really have no idea. If it is in the high 40s I don’t think it would be that bad for GM. Having a CS mpg a lot less than the Prius would be a disaster. Even though it may never be displayed on the window sticker, (which will just have kWhr/100 miles and an electric/CS combo number for the hwy) it would come out eventually.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:56 pm)I would say: “For god’s sakes! Pass the vasaline at least!”
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:58 pm)I have said it before. I will say it again. I would be happy to pay double or triple, maybe, over the MSRP for a Volt with serial number 000001. Order it for me, Corvette Guy.
Aug 18th, 2009 (1:59 pm)______________________________________________________
MetrologyFirst,
I understand your concern that consumers often only consider surface information when making a buying decision and often fumble when tasked to compare an apple against an orange.
I understand GM’s desire of finding a Volt mpg metric (such as the 230mpg#) that a consumer can put up against the Prius mpg #.
BUT…there is no escaping the fact that the Volt’s “actual” mpg is HIGHLY variable (infinity mpg to ~40s mpg.) completely relative to the average daily distance that a prospective buyer drives.
KISS is the best approach to overcome this challenge; give out the minimum relevant information required to make an informed decision. Discard all other non essential information (such as the 230mpg#) that may further complicate the analysis. I believe that GM may have thought it was applying KISS with the 230mpg# (because it reduced the comparison against the Prius to a single #) but the fallacy with that approach is that the 230mpg# has zero “actual” buyer relevance in terms of an informational metric.
A prospective Volt or Prius buyer will demographically be a higher educated and informed consumer that is more inclined to put into proper context the Volts dual #’s (Miles Per Charge & Extended Range Miles Per Gallon) against the Prius single MPG number. Throwing the 230mpg# at that more thinking and educated consumer IMHO works against GM.
______________________________________________________
-5
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:02 pm)I am surprised that solar is not mentioned at all. My experience with solar panels on my camper has been that a significant amount of electricity can be stored. And I’m not even using highly efficient batteries like the Volt. The added benefit of this is that the car we be charging for free (or sans plug) while it is not in use. Obviously it would increase the time before the generator will be required to turn on. I feel the plug station idea is lunacy.
I fully expect for the solar panels to be the next phase, but of course these companies are going to slowly rollout these upgrades so they can keep profiting in phases. This is the same backwards thinking that put our country in this epidemic in the first place. They only decided to release this vehicle after they went bankrupt. Thoroughly disappointing… I hopefully a competitor will quickly release such an upgrade asap to cut off GM’s sales and punish them for their laziness.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:03 pm)Other than giving buyers a down payment at taxpayer expense, allowing foreign owned auto companies to participate in the Cash for Clunkers program is the biggest mistake I see in the program. I can understand the need to stimulate the car dealers, the auto suppliers and the auto companies, but giving away taxpayer money to foreign owned auto companies is a disgrace. And I own three Japanese vehicles (which I paid for without any taxpayer money). I do not plan on purchasing any more foreign owned auto company vehicles in the future. It will be a Ford, GM or Chrysler vehicle for me from now on. Assuming they stay in business, of course.
-12
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:05 pm)(click to show comment)
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Seems odd calling the Prius “mighty”. Maybe in sales, but not mighty in any other way.
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Does the Prius engine turn off at every stop? What kinds of losses are associated with constantly restarting an engine? If it doesn’t turn off, where does all the energy go?
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:17 pm)“APPRECIATE”?????? yeah, because we all know the first electrical appliance, i.e. first generation iPhone, is worth when the better models come out. I’m sure it will be worth more when they come out with the model that has solar panels that allows for more mileage and recharge when the car is off.
-3
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:19 pm)The Ford Transit Connect (available early next year !) and other upcoming Ford electrics will “talk” to the National Grid according the Department of Energy and 24 electric co-ops who have been optimizing Ford EVs for upcoming rollouts.
Of course everybody knows the Nissan LEAFs will all be “connected” (Borg style).
The Volt will be connected via OnStar but in a much more limited and less intelligent fashion.
Go FORD !
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:21 pm)I’m not so sure we can just forget about combating the Prius. If the CS mpg is not ~50, the only way to defeat hypothetical Toyota negative ads would be to preemptively hit them BEFORE the Volt is sold with real-world consumer test data from the pre-prod fleets. How about giving a Prius and a Volt to all of the SAME drivers and testing them for a summer with a randomized swap halfway (I pity those who will have to swap from Prius to Volt rather than the other way around). That way you can really negate all the arguments “oh they just had different pools of test drivers”, etc and prove conclusively that the Volt massively reduces fuel use. The price/mpg argument may be harder to combat. Volt ads should not purely emphasize cost savings, but rather the benefits of reducing fuel use for other ends (environment/foreign oil, etc) and of course the refined, fun driving experience.
Most people here know that comparing the Prius and Volt makes little sense. However everyone in the general public that I talk to instantly gravitates toward that comparison. C’est la vie.
And just to clarify, I wish the Prius well, I just think it is the last step in the evolution of the auto. Voltec is the next.
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:23 pm)It absolutely does NOT compete with Lexus, BMW etc. Those buyers want performance and luxury, something the Volt is not going to offer.
Like or not, the Volt will compete soley in the “green” car category, with the like of Prius, Insight, Tesla, etc….
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:24 pm)I think it was 30 years or so ago that I came across two little factoids and began thinking about the future of automobiles.
1) At highway speed, an aerodynamic car may only need 5 horsepower to overcome friction to maintain that speed (is that even true?)
2) The engine in the average car has been tuned to produce the range of speeds required for driving, which affects efficiency at any one speed. An engine designed to run at one speed could be much more efficient than a car’s.
Later I read an article about a tinkerer who put together a car from lead-acid batteries and the auxiliary power unit from an airliner; in essence, a prototypical, ‘stone age’ forebear of the EREV concept.
By 20 + years ago, I was telling whoever would listen that the job of creating the energy needed to be separated from the job of propelling the car. With a small battery to buffer output from a constant-speed, tuned-for-efficiency generator engine, one could realize tremendous fuel savings for reasonable performance.
I imagined that one would never have a battery good enough for long periods of electric-only travel, and that a battery would be much better able to handle the constant cycling than they in fact (still) are.
Eventually, I realized that only some kind of super-capacitor would be feasible (no one was talking “ultra” back then, much less anything like EEStor), and I let the idea slip to the back burner.
Still, after many theoretical, thought-experiment trips in this imaginary car, I came to imagine that great mpg figures might be possible.
On the engine side there would be
- no wasted idling
- no sudden take-offs and acceleration
- no engineering trade-offs made to get a range of rpms
- smaller / less weight
On the car side there would be
- regenerative braking
- greater performance
- accessories also sized for single-speed without a need to function over a range of rpms
In the future there could be
- engines only capable of steady speeds, such as turbines, which couldn’t be considered for automotive use, before
- fuel cells
- eventually, with an electric power train, super-batteries.
The battery would only be needed to provide the difference between the generator’s power and the required load, with the power used made up from the difference when less load is required.
When I first heard of the Volt, I thought that my dream car had at last been realized. In fact, the kind of battery really able to function this way has to be so large with today’s technology that it makes no sense not to plug it in for lengthy electric-only travel — a bonus.
I still think that the car I imagined decades ago will someday be built, when smaller batteries are made which can handle the cycling to be buffers.
Perhaps it is because of these old dreams that I am hoping that the Volt will get 60+ mpg in ‘charge-sustaining’ mode; if not now, then in a few years (I voted for 60 – 70).
Having said all that, “your mileage will vary.” I think 60+ mpg will come with cruise-control set on a flat highway at 65 mph; with a lot less realized when constantly gunning it to show off the Volt’s acceleration!
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:25 pm)Me too.
-7
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:26 pm)The ICE will get no more than 40 MPG under ideal conditions.
If anyone doubts this numba I hereby challenge you to a cage match. You do not want to make me hurt you.
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:26 pm)I think the efficiency of a series hybrid isn’t understood by the average driver. I’d guess the Volt will be over 50 MPG.
Surpassing expectations is the only way to justify govenment involvement. If it doesn’t have some stellar MPG, then we the tax payers shouldn’t be footing the bill!
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:31 pm)I think in the real world, it will range between the civix and toyota hybrids.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:31 pm)Of course the genset will run constantly when on the highway past AER. That’s why I can live with a Volt!
The difference from Prius/Insight is that the genset is free to run at optimal speeds rather than those set by the drivers foot.
I think the efficency numbers are going to fantastic.
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:33 pm)I am one of those who would prefer to purchase my Volt from a good dealer. I have purchased my last 4 cars from the same dealer [unhappy to report they were cut by GM]. but I can understand why, they were in an old building and the Chevy dealer has a new one on the main drag. If I have a problem I want to be able to be face to face with a local dealer.
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:34 pm)I wish you had given this additional explanation as part of your other comment. Maybe you would not get any negative votes then. I understand your reasoning, but the Volt could still prove to be a very good vehicle for even your situation. Especially as more charging stations come on line.
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:34 pm)There was a news report that Gen mode was 62 MPG
How much Gen mode charges the battery while powering the motors, how long the ride in Gen mode and how much the software flips back and forth from Gen to battery during the ride is the question…
With the ability to manually put ICE in the sweet spot and cruise on a trip…that we will see soon…Spin the ICE slow and have a simple gearing to spin the Gen faster would be cool.
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:37 pm)Until you try to turn it…
NOTHING else turns like an Elise.
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:41 pm)Oh my, solar charging again.
Do some research Josh (this has been covered here months ago).
Not possible ON a car.
And what do you call significant??
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:43 pm)can you link Vincent? I had not heard of that one…
-12
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:45 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:50 pm)I calculated that at 40 miles/day* 6days/week for 10 years @ 30 MPG @ $4.00/gal it would cost you $ 16,640.00 in gas. Guessing the cost of electricity for that many electric miles is less that $1000.00 so you have a roughly $15,000 advantage in a Volt over spending the money on gas & buying a ICE car @ 30 MPG. Assuming that ICE car that gets 30 MPG sells for 14K that takes you to 29K @ $4.00/gallon not counting maintenance. Hypothetical VOLT cost $37,500.00 – $7,500.00 federal tax credit = 30K. Also provides insurance against Oil shortage/ war shortages & equivalent price spikes and 1 hour waits in line for gas not to mention benefit to environment. Now can I sell my green credits for fuel not burned to Al Gore for green cash, thats what I want to know? Any mileage over ER is more money saved if MPG in Volt >30. Figuring in less maintenance cost, Volt should be at least an equal cost investment @ $4.00 / Gal. to an ICE. Value of showing off, being green & quiet = Priceless.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:50 pm)The current solar technology does not generate anywhere near the power required to run an electric car with the surface area available.
Solar on the roof of your house feeding a ‘base station’ battery or back to the grid? sure. Add a wind genny for good measure too.
On the car? ‘Maybe in a few years’ but don’t hold your breath.
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:50 pm)Troll
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:53 pm)Pedals for the co-pilot/ wife would be my first choice!! Something to focus on, other than the driver!!!!
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:53 pm)Jacob
No, thats the I’m not stuck beside the road because I drove furthur than the battery could go mode.
Dang, if some arn’t desparate to say something negitive about the Volt.
-2
Aug 18th, 2009 (2:57 pm)Metrology First
Don’t let it get you down. I try to find humor in some of the more idiotic post. Can you imagine those trolls saying some of their statements in the open where all could see them.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:02 pm)I don’t know why a portable wind generator couldn’t be developed which produces 110V for the existing charge port. By the time you took it out, extended it, locked it or whatever to keep it from blowing over / being stolen, it might end up being more work than most people are willing to fool with, in all but the windiest places.
Still, if EV penetration takes off, I’m sure some aftermarket, on-the-web kind of guy will step up with a unit (or plans, at least).
Inductive charging is also frequently discussed here, but IMHO I think that this also requires a degree of EV penetration that we won’t see for a few years.
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:04 pm)I won’t hold my breath, but I won’t say “never.” It will take “high performance” solar cells of a kind which don’t exist outside NASA getting a whole lot cheaper to happen (think of the solar cells on the Mars Exploration Rover as an example).
Even then, it will take more than a day to recharge an EREV 40 completely, IMO.
+7
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:05 pm)To all the troll here today…(to Proud Mary)
Got a good job with Toyota
Nissan and Honda will want me too
All I got do, is surf the Gm volt site
Make up stupid name and fling some poo
Chorus:
Poor English make them hurlin
Stopping stupid posts is for what they’re yearnin
Trollin,trollin, trollin on the volt site…
Posted lots of crap in august
All because GM made the claim
230 Miles..the firstMPG triple digits
can’t let them have that claim to fame
(repeat Chorus)
If you come down to the fan site
Bet your gonna laugh your old asses off
Look at the stupid names,
the trolls have been choosin
And the ineptitude they use when they scoff
(repeat Chorus)
Trollin (oh yeah)
Trollin (obviously yeah)
Trollin on the volt site…
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:05 pm)Off Topic, but for those electric motorcycle ppl on here, have you seen this one? Kinda makes the Zero S look like a moped. We’ll see if it becomes a reality.
http://www.ridemission.com/
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:05 pm)Roger Ramjet
You flunked math? right? I mean basic arithmatic.
+5
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:08 pm)As has been discussed many many times here, anyone buying the Gen 1 Volt is doing so for personal pride or because they CAN.
It is NOT a financial decision.
By Gen 2 or 3 finances will come into play, but the Gen 1 cars will be snapped up as fast as they build them. Those buyers KNOW they are paying a premium to pave the way for less expensive Voltec’s down the road.
The Gen 2 and later cars will be less expensive and will be profitable.
Somebody bought a $20000 TV so I could get mine at $1200.
If I can get one I’ll buy it I see it as my turn to break trail.
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:20 pm)I think GM should make this little hooptie meet NA crash standards and sell it here. The DIY Electric folks would have a field day on this. 4Grand and rip out the ICE and drop another 7G in worth of electricals and batteries and you have an inexpensive BEV
If they sell it here, I would buy it in a heartbeat for $4G and do exactly whay I said.
Better yet, sell just the shell (No ICE components) for $3G.
Many DIY’rs are waiting for the Tata Nano.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:23 pm)“Lots of education still needed. ”
I think it’s more like, lots of trolls.
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Your numbers are way off at nearly every calculation point. Its been posted on this board before that you would have to drive the Volt for nearly 27 years to make up the extra purchase price over something like Honda Insight.
We all agree the Volt is great, but we will pay a premium to drive it. It’s not a money saver no matter how you slice it.
-4
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:26 pm)Trolling aside, he may be right. If the genset MPG comes in at 40 or so, the Prius could have a strong argument for a better overall mileage car.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:29 pm)There are many here that do drive WAY over 40 miles per day. Many drive 100miles as they typically post (alos say why a BEV will never work for them) and that’s more than 5% of this boards population. I wouldn’t bother asking today though, too many trolls scramblong around like Roaches for food scrap.
Where’s My ShotGun!
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:33 pm)“The mileage is very dependant on the software that controls the genset and that is still being worked on.”
I agree. See the current discussion on greencarcongress about “sawtooth” on-and-off cycles (essentally doing hypermilers’ surge-and-glide method electrically, using battery or ultracap as a buffer). It would be very efficient, but possibly annoying. The other extreme would be to emulate a “normal” car as much as possible. Or — and this is the beauty of the Volt design — they could program it to any desired compromise between the two. Even make it user-selectable: if I want max MPG and can accept weird-sounding, let me press a button for that!
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:34 pm)Jackson, as usual you are right on the money.
There is a big difference between getting enough power to run some LED lights in a camper and enough to run a car.
I have LED lights in my camper too.
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:35 pm)Two thumbs up!!
-7
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:38 pm)Yeah, it looks like Toyota has 3 of the top 5 slots in Clunker sales. I think the people have chosen Quality over MPG.
Toyota == Quality
The truth shines when spending your own money. GM you are still in the doghouse. Until you bring something to the table you will stay in the doghouse and live off the scraps.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:39 pm)Technically when you are in CS mode, there is really no AER, right?
I thought the real discussion was on the CS mode?
As for lazy peeps, trust, there will be, not a whole lot but there will be, about 5%. Even the ones to drunk to remember to do so.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:42 pm)Who cars about ICE mileage. The whole point is to use the Battery on this Hybrid. ICE is just a fallback if your math skills fail you when you have exceeded your 20 mile bubble and need to get back to the hacienda.
Get it ? (I thought so)
No charge for the lesson.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:46 pm)FINDING a good dealer is the challenge!
Face to face availability is not optional.
-5
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:46 pm)More important is can the Volt get 40 miles on electric only with “normal” driving and NOT on some GM circuit near Detroit under sterilized conditions. The 40 miles is a dubious claim that still remains unproven.
J Steele
The Auto Authority
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:52 pm)MRR –> “comparisons are inevitable”
–
Yes among insiders, but not among buyers at large.
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:53 pm)54.0 MPG average as of 5,498 summer miles from my 2010 Prius.
CS mode comparisons to that are inevitable.
Hope that the estimates don’t become a subject of regret.
Real-World data is the only solid way to properly support Volt.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (3:53 pm)You got that right Captain, they be thick as thieves today!
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:00 pm)Stuff the Volts whizzy bits into the little shell and you have a real sleeper…
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:00 pm)Can you say Lexus ?
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:05 pm)I don’t see where your comment should be causing you to get negative votes. You only stated the obvious. I am not a Prius lover nor am I a Prius hater. I want a Volt as soon as I can get one. Come on, people. Give others a chance to make a comment mentioning the Prius without hitting the negative vote icon. It’s all good, as they say.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:06 pm)Josh,
Whoever gets Volt ser #1 has a million dollar car.
Whoever has iphone ser #1 likely has a pretty valuble bit of history there too.
Please do the math on solar panels cost and effectiveness and then you are welcome to rejoin the group discussion.
They do not currently make sense. Someday, maybe.
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:08 pm)How far do you commute Brian?
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:08 pm)Tom
You are correct on all points. In particular, you can drive on forever without recharging if you continue to put in more gas.
Of course, in CS mode the ICE cannot supply exactly the right amount of electricity to match use, but a small portion of battery capacity is used as a buffer, so that on the average over time the ICE will supply exactly what is used. In that way it does not require anticipation so much as judgment as to the present battery status versus 30% charged, the target. That could mean changing the rpm from time to time, or in some cases turning off the ICE from time to time.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:08 pm)I’ve been an electrcian for 35+ years, you are absolutely right, these are old ideas, in 10 years these cars will be antiquated. This is just the beginning. I hope the volt will be built better than the sorry 2008 Cobalt that I am driving.
-6
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Even at 50 mpg i don’t think the Volt will challenge the next Prius. I still have nightmares about Toyotas jumping fences during my deep sleep cycles.
Your favorite mechanic,
Mr. Goodwench
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Did you ever think it might be Internet Explorer 8 and not Ajax?
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:10 pm)We are not sorry, for your information. We just recognize something better coming along soon.
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:13 pm)I know a lot of people who would be pleased to get 30 MPG under those conditions today. Again, it is not the MPG, but the number of miles you can go without using any gasoline versus the miles driven using gasoline. Must commuters will use very little gasoline on a daily basis, if any at all.
-7
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:13 pm)Woohoo. Nice real world results. Looks like the bar just got raised some more over the Volt. That poor 1.4L is like so struggling right about now.
We deal in the here-and-now, those Volt numbers are just virtual nonsense that have no real world existence.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:13 pm)Brian, to your credit you are at least bringing some thought to your arguments.
I say again as I have several times, everyone who buys a Gen 1 Volt will pay a premium for the priviledge of bringing in the next wave of automotive technology.
We all know it.
Even as they prep the Gen 1 model for production there are people working in the background on the Gen 2 car to reduce the costs (hopefully dramatically) so the later cars can cost much less and be proftable.
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:14 pm)We are in complete agreement!
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:23 pm)I guess I stop too many times, I cant average more than 65mph no matter how much I hurry.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:26 pm)It will require a separate 20 amp branch circuit to recharge any electric car battery pack. Super heavy duty extention cords (#10 awg) with marine type connections that are waterproof also will be necessary (according to the NEC for outdoor services). In my experience as an electrician, there is very little extra capacity in exising electric panels with few, if any extra breaker space available. How many employers will pony up for the expensive electrical upgrades to accomadate recharging employee’s automobiles so they don’t have to buy gas?
Very few, I think. Don’t count on recharging at work, folks.
-2
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:33 pm)Respectfully, I disagree.
If you take your $40-50k and go out to buy a car, it certainly won’t be a Prius unless you are buying two of them.
It might compete against Tesla since the ‘S’ will be similarly priced. A Merc MKX starts at 38k. A BMW 328i starts at 35k. What would be your motivation to buy a Volt instead unless it had similar/superior features and capabilities?
If Volt can’t compete in the $40-50k range, no matter what the technology, it won’t compete at all. It will just be a high-dollar low-demand player in it’s own little realm. Nothing wrong with that, but, most of us won’t see one if that happens. At that point it is an SSR or CrossFire.
As far as collector value, I wouldn’t compare a throw-away electronics device to an automobile. Take a look at ’60s Corvettes for examples. I wonder what an EV-1 would go for at auction today if any had survived? A cassette Walkman, not so much.
Recent bids:
S84 1968 Corvette L88 Convertible 430 HP, 4-Speed $200,000
S85 1967 Corvette Convertible Bill Mitchell, 427/400 HP, Automatic $300,000
http://www.corvetteblogger.com/index.cfm/2009/8/17/Corvette-Auction-Results-Mecum-at-Monterey
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:35 pm)Cool…except for the low, low price of $68,995. The Volt sounds inexpensive when compared to this rocket.
+4
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:36 pm)huh?
The Volt offers superior performance characteristics with maximum torque off the line and instant smooth, seamless near linear acceleration at all times, all in complete luxury quiet within its AER, thanks to 100% electric drive. No BMW or Lexus offers that, not even the much more expensive existing Lexus or forthcoming also much more expensive BMW 6 and 7 series or Merecedes CLS power hybrids, none of which have 100% electric drive.
You’re right that the Volt doesn’t compete with Lexus and BMW. It crushes them. Volt provides performance off the line torque, instant acceleration at all times and luxury quiet at a lower cost, with 100% electric drive, which leaves BMW and Lexus in the dust.
Sheesh, please purchase a test drive in a Tesla Roadster Sport Edition today or in a Fisker Karma S (once Valmet changes over from those obsolete Porsches) to get a real world clue.
I’m reading again where you said that Tesla doesn’t compete on performance, so it’s soley a “green” car. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Don’t bother with a top speed rejoinder. The average US commuter that uses interstates faces an average maximum speed of 48 mph and has to contend near destinations with stop signs, red lights, 90 degree turns in intersections and heavy traffic. The perfromance that’ll matter most them to them is off the line torque feet (torque pound feet divided by the weight of the vehicle, a measure of power to weight) and 0-30 mph times for block to block driving in luxury quiet within a reasonable commute distance, all of which 100% electric drive, and thus the Volt, excels in.
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:36 pm)DonC,
Just look at Toyota’s Prius commercials. They are all about “green” thinking and driving. They don’t stress MPG, as you pointed out. They do stress the environment. GM should be able to take a note from the Toyota Prius commercial handbook and develop commercials that do similar things for the Volt.
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:37 pm)Good question. I certainly don’t know.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:42 pm)I have to disagree with you there, if anything it’s the opposite.
Buyers tend to bunch cars together by type, and the Volt and the Prius are going head to head for the consumers interest without question. Buyers at large think prius first when they think green, this makes complete sense since it really is the poster child of ‘green’.
Gen 1 Volts will of course be more money, but there is a good group of people ready to step up there.
Gen 2 will have to compete for the dollars and I think GM will get the costs under control (now that the UAW loses profit if it tries to bump labour costs) and Gen 2 will be the mass break out of electric transportation.
But all along even after Toyota changes to an EREV Prius they will be compared to the Volt by consumers.
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:42 pm)MuddyRover–I agree. I voted more than 70 combined. Looking at the DOE website
http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/phev/phevtestplan.pdf
where the government shows how they test Plug-ins, I think City will be in the 246MPG range and Hiway will be in the 124MPG range.
From what I can tell, after every exercise, the unit can be charged a certain number of hours. If that is so, you are always starting each exercise with a charged battery which means the first 40 miles of a hundred mile
hiway test is electric.
Also for those wanting the test to be run, the government will not test a PREPRODUCTION UNIT. IT HAS TO BE A SALABLE UNIT.
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:42 pm)I was born in January 1944. I was a little pup sitting on my grandfather’s knee when his truck was being filled-up and I remember the price. Still you put $5 or $6 of gas in a truck in 1951 and that $4.50 to $5.00 was a hunk of money for most “poor” people. My grandfather was land rich but money poor. Like most farmers back then.
Aug 18th, 2009 (4:46 pm)As a Prius driver, I agree wholeheartedly! Beat the Prius in an apples-to-apples competition, and I’ll be very happy about putting together plans to replace it.
I’m in this to save gas, not to root for any particular team.
Aug 18th, 2009 (5:15 pm)If you do kill one, they are best when baked.
Tastes just like bald eagle.
Aug 18th, 2009 (5:25 pm)That would be a great test, if you can please repeat it at 55mph and 65mph, for at least 100 miles each.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (5:43 pm)Forget the environment. I really just want to “squeal” the tires! LOL
Actually the great thing about the Volt is that you can do both!
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (5:49 pm)So you want us to drop [not count ] our AER miles when we compare our MPG to your Prius. If we do that the Prius might win the MPG rating. Ofcourse many of us might have to travel 40-50 thousand miles to get up to 5498 of CS mode driving.
The problem is, when I calulate MPG I measure the gas I have used to get from point A to point B. On most days with the Volt the MPG will be infinite.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (5:52 pm)Why is it that the fuel mileage in CS mode is this important?
Cause some people can’t stand prosperity. Not content to get an average of 230 MPG or 150 MPG or whatever triple digit it ends up being during the course of a year, they need to get that MPG for every mile they drive.
Basically I’m with you. I don’t get why it matters. And the process of coming up with elaborate scenarios wherein the Volt won’t get triple digit MPG is completely beyond me. The MPG figures are always an average of what MPG you can expect over the course of a year. That’s why fueleconomy.gov gives you yearly costs and the yearly carbon footprint. It just so happens that most people haven’t figured this out, and, without thinking about it, have made the mistake of thinking that the MPG numbers are valid for every trip they take rather than valid for their average of trips taken over a year.
Aug 18th, 2009 (5:55 pm)I’ll take the bait.
Sigh, ready for how to know which is better at what?
I choose for actual performance and value that satisfies my real world daily vehicle use, not subjective looks.
The Mission One motorcycle is already a reality (it was at TTXGP and AMA events already), and no, it doesn’t make the Zero S supermoto motorycle look like a moped. The Mission One motorcycle makes the Zero S motorcycle look like the Zero S offers superior off the line and any time acceleration performance and a reasonable range and top speed at a much better value, a much price and a lower weight (which matters a lot to motorcyclists, esp. when they are female).
Trade offs in electric motorcycles include:
* Price: If you live in California, you can purchase 14 (yes, that’s fourteen) Zero S motorcycles for the MSRP of one (yes, that’s 1) Mission One motorcycle.
* Top speed versus range: The Mission One motorcycle offers a higher top speed which, as we all know on this site, will drastically reduce your all electric range if sustained, especially as motorcycles have much worse aerodynamics (Cd, not CdA) than a car. The Mission One reports a top speed of 150 mph and a maximum range of 150 miles. Pick one, but not both, as your total range will fall dramatically under a sustained high speed. Even a real world 100 mile range at an average 45 mph would be excellent, but you certainly pay to get it, it that’s what it really ends up at in the real world or daily commuting. The Zero S offers at least 55 mph and 50 mile range in actual typical riding conditions, perfectly adequate for interested folks’ real world daily use conditions.
* Torque versus Weight: You can’t tell performance without both, for some kind of power (or torque, in this case) ratio. The Zero S offers 60 pound feet while the Mission One reports 100 pound feet of torque (they have the metric backwards on their site, but its still 66% more). That tells you absolutely nothing about their relative performance, though, as increased vehicle weight lowers your performance, The Mission One fails to report its weight (a very critical oversight, why you’re about to see). With over three times the range (150 miles versus 50 miles) reported for the Mission One, the power pack must also weigh at least three times as much to get that increased range. The Zero S power pack weighs about 100 pounds, so the Mission One pack weighs around 300 pounds, a 200 pound weight penalty. The Zero S weighs 225 pounds, so the Mission One must weigh around that plus the extra range pack 200 pound weight penalty, or around 425 pounds, an 89% increase in weight (that’s assuming that the Mission One frame is at least as efficiently constructed as the Zero S frame, which was designed by an ex NASA aerospace engineer with frame design awards, using lightweight aerospace strong aluminum). A 66% increase in torque and a 89% increase in weight means that the Mission One has a lower torque to weight ratio, for slower off the line launches. Also, to get the higher top speed, the Mission has to have a taller gear (unless they’ve gone with easily shreddable/locking multiple gears, for addiotnal weight and maintenance penalties), which will further slow its off the line launches. The extra weight also means that the Mission One will be more awkward to handle and less maneuverable.
Here’s the recap:
The Zero S offers superior off the line performance, excellent handling and maneuverability in real world conditions and a perfectly adequate top speed and range for those interested in purchasing it for real world use, all at an unbeatable price value.
The Mission One offers you higher absolute top speed or longer maximum range, if you are willing to spend the additional price to get that.
Yep, I actually did my research before choosing my ride.
My Zero motorcycle continues to offer me the best performance at the lowest price within my personal criterea for an adequate range for real world daily use and convenient top offs, largely due to the manufacturer understanding what Colin Chapman figured out for race cars. There is absolutely a hard core set of weight / performance / range / price trade offs for consumers of electric vehicles. Figure those out and figure out your REAL WORLD daily vehicle use patterns and prefernces and you’ll then make the best possible choices in electric vehicles, I guarantee.
How far is your daily commute to work, kdawg? Mine’s less than 40 and my BEV (which is NOT the larger, higher range Model S) AER is 40, so I’m golden.
There’s simply no close analog in the four wheeled world.
Mission One compared to the Zero S.
The Mission One motorcycle:
Slower off the line and not as snappy instant acceleration at speed.
Longer recharge time at any same % of one charge range.
Much, much more expensive.
Much heavier.
More awkward and worse handling at lower speeds.
Higher top speed (312% of the average real world commuting speed possible in moderate traffic).
Longer single charge range, which would be frequently unused.
Which do you prefer?
I suspect that the slightly over the top plastic bits bolted to the Mission One only for visual purposes account for about $20,000 of the price increase.
BTW, you can subject the Brammo Enertia to a similar performance to price analysis against the new Zero DS. Guess which bike is the best value there?
I’m all for more electric choices, but sometimes the best value really does stand out.
Disclaimer: I currently own neither a Zero S nor a Zero DS.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:00 pm)Bingo! I don’t understand why buying a BMW 7 Series just because you want to is OK but the Volt has to be some kind of “Super Saver Special”. I want one because it’s totally cool and the EV drive train should provide a fantastic ride.
However, we need to concede Tom’s basic point that the more you utilize the battery the more economic sense the Volt makes.
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:19 pm)Rashiid,
Greetings from the other side of the country!
Let me know when you get to Olympic National Park, cuz that’s the view out my window!
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:22 pm)What’s with all the trolls being out today with the ridiculous screen names?
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:23 pm)If thats you thinking, buy a BEV. We want extended range, that’s why we want a Volt.
-4
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:24 pm)N Riley :“That lack of brain usage is partly to blame for Toyota, Honda and the rest to have gained such a sales position versus our on auto companies”
We once had a project lead who wanted to go into the focus testing room to point out all the ways the test users were “doing it wrong”. They didn’t understand, therefore it wasn’t his interface that was the problem, it was the user being stupid. (Our suggestion was to cut the guy up into a million pieces and give piece of him to every customer so the piece could ‘explain’ what they were doing wrong.)
So… N Riley, are YOU gonna go around to every single household and convince the car-buying customer that the American-built cars they bought were NOT lemons, and that the Japanese or other manufacturers’ cars they bought thereafter were NOT reliable?
Actually, just try convincing my wife to even consider an American car after that epic, EPIC disaster of a car she bought in the mid-eighties from a “reputable American manufacturer, not those shady Japanese ones” (he father’s advice). Twenty-five years on, suggesting an American car is like asking if she wants bathe in rattlesnakes.
To say nothing of all of my friends and family of my generation — we’ve all had such rotten experiences with American cars, and such good experiences with nearly un-killable Japanese cars, that we’ve all formed brand loyalties with Toyota and Honda because they have yet to let us down.
Calling them “brainless” just alienates you from them.
-4
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:33 pm)I wouldn’t listen to solar advice from the posties on this site, they have a Lithium attitude and are mostly inside-the-box old school thinkers.
Many new high density energy storage devices are on the way. Most of the advanced breakthroughs are taking place in U.S. universities right now, not in some shiny new battery lab in Detroit.
In Summary the auto monkeys on this site are clueless to the latest alternative energy devices such as solar and wind. Look elsewhere.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:35 pm)This just in:
NEW YORK (AP) — All three U.S.-based automakers are doing a better job of satisfying their customers than they were a year ago, according to a recent survey.
General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group LLC all posted significant gains in this year’s American Customer Satisfaction Index released Tuesday by the University of Michigan.
“Although the future will obviously be challenging for Detroit, the rise in customer satisfaction provides a much needed improvement in competitive standing,” Claes Fornell, the University of Michigan business professor who heads the annual survey, said in a statement.
Fornell said keeping customers happy is key for the automakers, especially at a time when less people are buying cars, because they will be more likely to come back the next time they need a new vehicle.
GM’s Cadillac and Toyota’s Lexus brands tied for first place in the survey with scores of 89 out of 100. That marked a 4 point increase for Cadillac from its 2008 results and a 2 point improvement for Lexus, which also ranked first in last year’s survey.
GM’s Buick brand, Honda and Ford’s Lincoln Mercury vehicles all received an 88. The Lincoln Mercury score marked a 5 point increase over its results for the previous year, while Buick’s score rose by 3 points.
BMW received an 87, while Mercedes, Toyota and Volkswagen each got an 86. Volkswagen’s increase of 5 points, or 6.2 percent, marked the biggest jump from the year before.
Hyundai received an 85, while the Chrysler’s namesake brand rose 4 points to 84. GM’s Saturn brand also got an 84.
The Chevrolet and Ford brands rose by 4 points and 3 points respectively to 83, while GMC fell by 1 point to 82.
Dodge, Kia, Mazda and Pontiac all received an 81. Jeep and Nissan, fell to the bottom of the pack with a 79 and 78, respectively. Nissan was one of the few brands to post a decrease from the year before, falling 4 points, or 4.9 percent.
The overall automotive industry’s score was 84, up from 82 the year before.
There were over 11,000 telephone surveys conducted and about 5,500 for the auto industry in the second quarter of this year, asking respondents to rate their satisfaction of the vehicles on a scale of zero to 100. At the industry level, the margin of error is plus or minus 1 point. At the company level it is plus or minus 3 points.
_____________________________________________
I wasn’t consulted during the survey, but I drive an ’04 Cadillac and it is, indeed, a very satisfying car. Easily the best car I have ever owned!
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:39 pm)Right on bro, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Volt owners will Never Ever recover the extra upfront cost of this expensive hybrid. An extremely expensive Chevy.
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:51 pm)OT but some people here to follow GM. For anyone interested here’s a short piece about the new product from GM. It was on autobloggreen.com so it must have some relevance for EVs?
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/17/at-witz-end-a-sneak-peak-at-the-new-gm-s-critically-importa/
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (6:54 pm)The Einstein pic is posted in my cubicle. Go Volt!
I love this site. It’s so full of trolls and real people. Makes me laugh every day!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:14 pm)Great. When someone has 2,000 MPG over 10,000 Summer miles from a 2012 Volt… what will you say? (1 gallon a month to circulate the ICE)
CS mode mileage doesn’t really compare to well to typical driving mileage. 230 MPG is what SAE J1711 predicts the average driver will get over average driving. Thats better to compare to you 5,000+ miles than something that only occurs after 30+ minutes of driving (City Driving, 40 miles should last a good 60+ minutes)
Nor is it fair to compare Prius mileage to the driving style of someone who never uses the ICE on the Volt.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:22 pm)If you are an invaluable and irreplaceable employee, then, maybe they absolutely would if the logistics in doing it were favorable. And, more employers are looking for “good examples” where they can directly prove they care about both employees as well as the environment, it seems to me.
More work for you hard working electricians to go buy the Volts you deserve!
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:39 pm)However, if what you want is to get nattered to death day and night by moronic half-baked troll drivel by the ton, this is your destination!
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:41 pm)I realize that mine is the minority position, but I stand by it.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:42 pm)______________________________________________________
Breaking News!
Toyota claims that they may have a 600 mile BEV inside 10 years.
Toyota Said to Achieve 10-Fold Lithium-ion Battery Breakthrough:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1034384_toyota-said-to-achieve-10-fold-lithium-ion-battery-breakthrough
______________________________________________________
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:42 pm)You’re talking to yourself again, “no name.”
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:45 pm)The sad thing is, I think 90% this troll volume is actually the output of maybe three people with access to multiple IP addresses.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:48 pm)About 50% of it is one guy we’ve nick-named “no name.” If you watch carefully, you can see him ‘talk to himself,’ starting a thought under one name and finishing it with the next (in a pathetic attempt to create the illusion of a negative consensus).
Ridiculous names that you see only once, and lame one-dimensional expressions of disgust and disdain are his hallmark.
He also likes voting multiple times using his many personnas.
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:49 pm)Yup,
Made the thread to me
Aug 18th, 2009 (7:54 pm)Maybe I could get permission from Lyle to forward the audio if I don’t get heckled (lol).
I was able to get some Volt pictures already courtesy of this site.
I really need about 10 more stunning ones. Einstein was terrific!!
The battery pack would be terrific too, especially where there was that cutaway to see the electronic boards in the upper area of one of the sections.
The black Volt was stunning, and you could really get the perspectives of the beautiful lines of the sculpture.
A “ten o’clock” position of the front left corner also at about “11 o’clock high” would also be stunning.
A ventral view would have the audience transfixed as well.
The Range Extender/Motor compartment would capture the techies in the audience once and for all I think, and, I also already have the pack “front-connections/terminus” download courtesy of Lyle.
I will be enlarging all of them to something like 18by24.
Hey, have you guys/gals checked to see if you have some extra coin around to get over to Lyle’s marathon charity? (Even a little means so much!)
It would be really cool to see your names there.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:01 pm)“But remember that those are electrical losses, and not load / efficiency losses on the ICE”
What you say would be true if the generator, electronics and electric motor are 100% efficient but they’re not.
Generally the most efficient these days are in the low to mid 90s
Comparing a 50mpg Prius with a supposed 50mpg Volt.
Electrical losses are still load/efficiency losses
i.e. Kw out will be less than Kw in.
For example:
You have 2 internal combustion engines each with say 55kw output.
One of them has a direct mechanical coupling to a dynamometer (Prius example) you would measure around 55kw output.
The other ICE is connected to a generator, the output of which is directed via power electronics to an electric traction motor, which in turn is connected to the dynamometer (Volt example).
Each of those stages in the Volt example has electrical losses (heat mostly).
Assuming a generous 95% efficiency per stage, you would likely end up with around 47Kw measured at the dynamometer, a potential loss of around 8Kw in the Volt example.
As Scotty said; “you canni change the laws of physics”
)
The Prius also has the same electrical losses in EV mode when the ICE isn’t running but that’s a different issue.
I personally can’t wait for the volt, as I really want one.
All I’m trying to do is get down to the nitty gritties.
-5
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:06 pm)“That lack of brain usage is partly to blame for Toyota, Honda and the rest to have gained such a sales position versus our on auto companies.”
What a stupid thing to write… you must have dozens of Toyotas!
Just kidding… sort of… that was pretty stupid.
Honda and Toyota simply have the better product the majority of the time. You can see that you are wrong in how GM does make inroads when they don’t build ugly uncompetitive crap.
If you still doubt, take a look at the last gen-Malibu compared to the current.
When the Prius sells better than the Volt it will be for many reasons. If sheep are buying cars because they are sheep, they will be buying the “230 MPG” Volt. It is easy to demonstrate that the Prius is the better car for pretty much everyone. And please don’t shoot the messenger… “one-up-Toyota-demand-for-efficient-cars-is-inflated-gotta-sell-what-people-want-Volt-is-a-compromise-Lutz” pretty much ensured that they weren’t building the “right” car for anyone but GM PR.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:10 pm)The Prius gets 50 MPG. My guess is that the Volt will get slightly less than that in range extender mode.
But as Lyle asks: Does it really matter?
No. It doesn’t really matter. If the Volt got 45 MPG in range extender mode, the 40 miles of all-electric range would still produce over 200 MPG EPA. In addition, my own calculations show the EPA estimate for average MPG to be somewhat conservative. I calculated over 300 MPG average. The point is that 40 miles AER covers the majority of daily driving, so the average MPG numbers will be very high regardless of the MPG in range extender mode.
So here’s the real question: Will the Volt really get 40 miles of all-electric range?
My guess is: Yes. This has always been the primary design goal, GM will do everything possible to meet it.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:12 pm)I think the Volt will get 70+mpg on the generator in the city, and 50+ on the hwy.
As far as pay back for the Volt at the price it is now $35k ish, I don’t think you’ll make it back in 10 years. It’s close though, for people that drive even a little bit over the average, but not mostly highway.
Do you get paid back for driving a Cadilac, a Jaguar, a Porsche or any other car? A car is worth what people are willing to pay. There’s no doubt that every year of Production for the Volt will drop the cost, and hopefully the price.
Buying the 1st year Volt might not save you money, but you won’t be losing too much over another car even if you don’t drive a lot.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:17 pm)Hermant, I understand where your numbers are coming from, but I am not sure that you are right about the genset running constantly at highway speeds. The ICE is tuned for a max of 53 kW, which is much lower than what the I4 produces in its normal iteration, so the 53 kW probably is running at a pretty efficient RPM. The aerodynamics of the Volt are supposed to be in the ballpark of the Prius, and a normal compact car needs less than 25 hp (33 kW) to maintain 60 mph. So what will the Volt and the Prius need to do 60 mph? I am not an engineer, but I would guess that they would be able to do 60 mph with 30 kW fairly easily, and 70 mph with 36-38 kW.
My point is that if you are cruising at 65-70 mph the genset will not be strained at all to be generating 45 kW, in fact the passengers probably won’t even be able to tell that it is on. So if the car needs 37 kW (and this is at 70 mph not a more efficient 60 or 65 mph) and the genset is producing 45, around 20% of the time the genset will be off so that the battery pack level won’t exceed 35%. So 60 mpg is not out of the range of possible outcomes. 55-60 mph the mpg will be even better, although when you get above 70 mph your mileage will come down fast.
I don’t think the genset will have to run steadily below 70-75 mph, and that means that the already tuned for efficiency ICE will get even better mileage. But Volt drivers that want better than 50 mpg performance will have to be satisfied driving at 62-65 mph, I would imagine.
Now in town, the genset could be off even more often, and the mileage there could be outstanding.
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:18 pm)These inflated house prices are coming to an end (already down by a lot). Those inflated prices can only remain if we have vast amounts of cheap oil so people can transport themselves and goods around. I hope must of us know by now that the cheap and stable oil era is over.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:18 pm)I sure hope that you are right on this . Logically speaking it makes sense . The wait is so hard though , it would be easier if we knew the answers now .
Lyle should call this site “The Volt Guessing and Speculation Site”
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:25 pm)The generator can circulate the ICE easily, you don’t need gas to do that.
+3
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:28 pm)That is exactly how GM came up with it’s 230 mile MPG figure in the first place. So the average of 15,000 miles of driving should be 230 MPG.
The more I look at it, the more I agree with DonC’s gallons per year concept.
-3
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:30 pm)GM has claimed near 40 MPG for Cruze. That is almost certainly highway. But take a look at the Cobalt XFE to put that in perspective. First, it is rated at 37 highway and only 25 city. To even get those ratings they use low rolling resistance tires which result in horrible handling and SUV-length stops.
Not only that, here is what Edmunds wrote about it:
“Though we followed the advice of the shift light almost exclusively over the course of a thousand miles, we achieved a worst tank of 22 mpg, a best tank of 29 mpg and an overall average of 25 mpg. Ever since the EPA’s new testing rules went into effect this year, it’s been uncommon for our overall average to fall short of the EPA’s combined figure, but it did this time.”
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=134506/pageNumber=1?synpartner=edmunds&pageurl=www.edmunds.com/new/2009/chevrolet/cobalt/101028090/roadtestarticle.html&articleId=134506
Volt, Cruze, etc…. take anything GM says about a future product with a grain of salt. That applies to 40MPG Cruze, 50MPG Volt, 230MPG Volt, under $30K, up to 40 miles AER, etc., etc.
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:32 pm)Hey kdawg,
Thanks for that link! You rock!
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:36 pm)nuclearboy,
The power needed to drive the generator should be far less than that needed to drive full weight of the car. My point was that the greater mass of the vehicle would require far greater energy consumption than what would be needed to to run the generator. I don’t remember what year Fiat sold their little four banger but they ran full out RPM,s and were very efficient for that time. They were small so that the ICE didn’t need to pump out so much energy. Also, look at the railroad electromotive engines. They run diesel engines to drive electrical traction motors to hall those long high mass loads down the track. There must be some reason that they use electricity instead of internal combustion engines: Don’t you think? The electromotive engines are much more efficient, with lower loss than ICE.
frankyB’s and Jackson’s comments above noted and agreed with. When you crank regen into the formula, the EV has far better efficiency over the ICE. That electricity recovered from the collapsing magnetic field of the motor upon slowing down, is then available when the vehicle needs more power to accelerate, unlike the ICE that just produces a lot of heat that isn’t utilized. This is particularly important when a vehicle first starts to move from a state of rest. The initial coefficient of rest is higher than after the vehicle is moving: that power saved through regeneration is then available for when the vehicle starts to move again. That is why, engineers are using supercapacitors in electrical vehicle design now; supercapacitors with their ability to discharge large amounts of energy in a short period of time allows the motor to provide sufficient tork upon startup to get heavy loads moving, when it is most needed to overcome that higher coefficient of friction. An ICE doesn’t have these capabilities; it only generates more heat loses to get the heavy vehicle moving. Perhapes we will see future gen Volts that use supercapacitors; especially if EEStor is for real!
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:52 pm)Now that’s funny!
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:54 pm)One more …. I looked at the link that Joe gave above on the efficiency of the ICE. At the same wesite, you can find this link:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/evtech.shtml
on EV’s: “Electric motors convert 75% of the chemical energy from the batteries to power the wheels—internal combustion engines (ICEs) only convert 20% of the energy stored in gasoline.”
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:55 pm)I’d bet that the Voltec recharge function could most certainly sense the amperage-availability of any outlet with some sort of optional extension cord. This is how it might work.
The grid generally has a minimal fluctuation in available voltage.
Where there might be some increase in resistance at any outlet from heat, or, a very simple plug which senses heat, there could easily be a small sensing circuit in the plug to tell the Volt two things.
1. The temperature of the load terminal, and, the rate of increase of temperature of the load terminal.
2. The voltage at the load terminal, and, the rate of change of voltage at the load terminal in millivolts declining. (As a function of predictable-heat-resistance increase, not of surge-demands (lowering voltage) that are more temporary)
These could all very easily be designed within a ground-fault-circuit-breaker plug, so that the optional cable could send an interrupt/decrease-request signal to the Volt without doing the interrupting, which could have the Volt request a lowered rate of amperage.
That could also be the exact same circuit needed to help prevent a contribution to a brownout load.
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:57 pm)48.5MPG combined
Read it and weep.
Aug 18th, 2009 (8:59 pm)These would be extremely expensive lithium cells, the materials are grown one atom at a time.. perhaps the cost will come down after the singularity.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:11 pm)—
So here’s the real question: Will the Volt really get 40 miles of all-electric range?
—
Absolutely.
But the reality is – it won’t. They have already said 25 kwh/100 miles – which comes to 32 miles / charge (i.e. 8 kwh).
If the travel is mostly highway – it could be worse. That could be the real problem for GM … (and Nissan too, if their range goes below 80).
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:16 pm)huh?
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:19 pm)The million (or multi-billion) dollar question.
I am VERY curious on how efficient you can make the ICE-GENERATOR-BATTERY combination.
It would not be a difficult estimate if you knew the ICE would only run at a single speed and would did not have the battery buffer. But, when you take into all the variables and how much “assist” can the battery provide, for all the different loading profiles, things get convoluted.
How, efficient can you really make this mechanism GM?
I am really excited to see the results, either good, bad, or so-so. In my book this will be what could really make this car special.
Also, on a secondary thought, if driving a generator to run the car is really that efficient, than why not build a car that has a smaller battery and a smaller generator, that run nearly continous. This mpg of this type of setup could be excellent, but that depends upon how efficient this type of arrangement really is.
Is it to early to take a “Wait and see” attitude?
-4
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:21 pm)Volt will likely average no more than 35 mpg — I’m talking city/hwy combined 2008 epa standards. (I could even foresee it dipping into the 20′s, but if you get to that point I think GM goes with plan B).
Primary reasons:
1. Generator / electrical control / motor — efficiency losses
2. 3500# car
3. The ICE GM is using just isn’t that efficient to start
It matters.
There are competing technologies out there for your plug-in dollar.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:25 pm)John, on an average day, how far do you drive?
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:26 pm)I agree that CS MPG is an important issue for the Volt, but not so much for competitor’s marketing fodder or at least not directly. The problem will be all of the automotive press. There is such a huge inertia of EV’s are foolish, efficiency is for wimps, greenies are out of touch, etc, etc. There is a large contingent that fawns all over new tech and green everything, but there is also this large opposing mindset that is going to grasp at anything to try to tear down a new EV. The Volt will be tested by the media and CS MPGs will be part of all of the reviews. The technophobic sloth crowd will latch onto the CS MPGs if they are low and not let go. Many of the weak minded, techno un-savvy crowd and technophobic leaners would bite on this FUD. The competition would also be sure to use this to their advantage. This would hurt GM’s efforts to proliferate Voltec and ramp up production to high volumes.
That said, GM just needs to be in close proximity (>45MPG combined) to avoid much of this opposition, IMO.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:27 pm)40 miles on the official epa city and hwy cycles.. on approved standardized testing facilities.
Cant get more fair than that.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:31 pm)Yeah but what do you want more?.. extended range or electric range?
Many people seem to be fixated on extended range that they will seldom use. You have to make a decision on what is most important, depending on your long term driving patterns.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:36 pm)I was researching electric motor cycles for a couple days. I saw the Zero S and the Bramma. Then I ran across the Mission One. I like powerful toys, but I dont have $68K to drop. Actually the $10K (-$1k back from the Fed), still doesnt justify me buying the Zero S. It would take me 10+ years to break even. I actually did buy a moped last summer and have put 1600 miles on it now. It gets over 80mpg and is fun to drive w/a top speed of 45mph. I’m still toying w/the idea of an electric motorcycle, but w/the economy the way it is, and living in a state where i can only use it for 1/2 the year, i dunno. I looked at a Vectrix last summer, and almost pulled the trigger, but went w/the moped instead. Some poster here said he just picked up a Vectrix but I haven’t heard his review yet.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:39 pm)I agree with you in regards to a large percentage of the current Prius buyers. The ones that won’t consider the Volt will be the ones that can’t afford it or need 5 seats. Most of the rest will probably look at both and, IMO, the Volt will greatly outshine in nearly every area. I don’t believe CS mpg will be an issue for many in this group as long as it’s greater than 40. The bigger issue is the longer term goal of attracting the rest of the buying public and the MPGs need to compare better to win over this group IMO.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:39 pm)Real world data is nice, but we need more than 1 sample point. For every person that owns a hybrid that says they get X+20 mpg, theres another that says they get X-20 mpg.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:51 pm)even 20 years ago you could tune a fixed rpm ICE to very high economy.. to the bare edge of detonation by playing with compression and ignition/valve timing.. imagine what you can do today when the Volt’s computer can vary the load on the ICE millisecond by millisecond, with sophisticated knock and other sensors, with variable valve timing and fancy direct fuel injection… yes, 60mpg is very possible.
If the tuners figure out how to break the Volts programing.. you could even see much higher mpg rates.. by ignoring durability and pollution concerns.
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:58 pm)This is exactly why I’ve been lobbying for a cruise control setting for an optimized generator output power mode in addition to velocity based cruise control.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (9:59 pm)“There are competing technologies out there for your plug-in dolla”
Which? And how would they do better than 35/2x?
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:00 pm)It’s the “racist” guy again.
He’s funny!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:02 pm)“Inductive charging is also frequently discussed here, but IMHO I think that this also requires a degree of EV penetration that we won’t see for a few years.”
There will be lots of aftermarket inductive chargers available.. the market demand will increase greatly with the incoming flood of BEVs . Heck you and I could make one.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:03 pm)It’s the ‘Monkey math” guy again.
He’s funny!
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:04 pm)Pulease…distracting by feathering between 2200 and 2500 RPM at 70MPH? You are being facetious, correct?
Yes, there are losses to energy passed through the battery, but since only a low rate will be excess and flowing through the battery this is a minor issue.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:07 pm)I think the 8 kWh figure is wrong, along with the subsequent calculations. The battery is 16kWh, with an operating range of 90 – 30% charge (60% range). 60% of 16kWh = 9.6 kWh, which with 0.4 kWh regeneration (braking) during city driving, gets us to 40 miles AER.
+2
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:07 pm)Great post N. Riley. I agree totally.
And thanks for coming overt to the American side!
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:07 pm)I wish someone did this years ago …
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:11 pm)I see it the other way. If you are more educated then you should be able to understand the 230mpg#. Besides that it is only one of a number of things that buyer will consider; first being what their daily round trip mpg travel will be.If over 70% of the population drives less than 40 miles, why would they be so concerned about what the Volt gets when it uses the ICE gen mode?
Only those who will be traveling over 40 miles would consider this extended range mode important. These individuals would then analyze the figure thrown out on gasoline consumption, and make a decision on what hybrid to buy. They would also consider factors like maintenance, comfort (including the pure quiet driving experience of the Volt), and all the others that a buyer considers. The biggie will be that first 40 miles AER. IHMO, when the consumer realizes that as battery technology advances, giving us cheaper, lighter, and longer lasting batteries, the existing Volts can be upgraded when needed. There will be people who will drive 150,000 miles in less than ten years,the life of the battery warranty, so that they will be able to replace their battery with one that gives more power or is lighter reducing the total vehicle weight. In addition, as GM analyzes performance data on the Volt electric drive system, they will be able to take advantage of improvements they find in adjusting the software to increase overall performance. These factors will play well with advertising and dealer sales pitches. The re-engineering of future generations of the Volt will be far less costly and will allow GM the ability to enhance the quality of the Volt overall. Although the initial cost to GM to engineer the Volt was very expensive, IHMO, the consideration initially made will have better return in upgrading the Voltec drive system and the Voltvariants. As technology advances, GM should easily be able to bring those advancements to the EVERs they product. Eventually, the ICE will no longer be needed but for the short term it provides the best mix of AER and extended range as the nation moves from fosil fuel to green energy.
The success of GM will depend upon how well its potential customers perceive EREV’s advantages when compared to other hybrid vehicles.
Therefor, their advertising and promotion of the Volt has to be clear and concise. If we look at the current line of GM vehicles, and compare them to their competitive class vehicles, we can judge GM on how far they have come from the old days with its failures to meet customer needs; such as reliability and quality. GM has come a long way since those less successful days. Vehicles with better gas milage, good looks, performance, and amenities, will insure the future success of GM. Much of what you see in the showrooms today were in progress well before GM went through bankrupcy as well as the development of the Volt. I, for one, do not beleive that GM has been given the credit they deserve for what we are seeing today. GM is creating the new future of the automotive industry and will reclaim its place as world leader in automotive development and sales.
The Volt, Converj, and the Electric Buick Crossover offer us a window into the future of GM and its drive toward providing futuristic vehicles. They are all some very Awesome vehicles.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:12 pm)You, the driver, are by far the best NAV system for this. If GM’s engineers see some benefit to altering the CS mode control algorithms for steep climbs, then they just need to create the setting for the driver to choose or inputs to be entered. Personally, I would pefer it as a setting just like an “I’m 3 miles from home” setting to get the battery to a max depleted SOC for when I reach my home plug-in.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:15 pm)CDAVIS,
Try Firefox 3.5 and be assured of pleasant browsing.
Happy Trails to You, ’til we meet again.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:16 pm)“The cruze may get 40 MPG highway there is no way it will get combined 40MPG I stake my life on it.”
Arent we talking about CA, as in HWY CS, miles 41+ so 40mpg is easy.
I guess there could be HW and CIT CS.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:25 pm)I would like to see this but to customize battery SOC for the commute to and from work.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:25 pm)Li Cui is working on 10x anodes at stanford and Toyota is working on batteries wih 10x cathodes. Li’s may be ready in 4 to 5 years and Toyota’s may be ready in ten years. If Li’s anode and Toyotas cathode would work in the same cell…
That would make one heck of a battery, half the size of the Volt battery with 250 miles range. Or 1/3rd the Volt battery with 100 mile AER!!!
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:27 pm)exactly what you said DonC
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:27 pm)I agree that it will be very difficult for GM to noticably improve on the Prius’ highway MPG for Gen1 with an I4, unless they have been sandbagging the CdA number or they have an ICE efficiency trick up their sleeve. I do think the can be very close. What does the Prius’ power output vs thermo efficiency curve look like? In other words, given standard conditions how efficient is the engine operating at various speeds. Is it at or near max efficiency for 55-70mph? I bet you the Volt’s genset wiil be. It can be for a much wider range of speeds and condiitions.
This is why I think the Volt wil be a little better than the Prius in city CS mpg.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:28 pm)It makes perfect sense . . . . like this:
http://picture-funny.blogspot.com/2007/03/crying-child.html
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:36 pm)Wouldn’t a plug in prius have extra battery weight as well?
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:38 pm)TRUE, but 50 sounds sooooo much better than 40. I think a good percent of people in the market would agree.
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:40 pm)Off topic: Toyota is going to Sanyo for about 10,000 lithium battery packs per year, to supplement their supply for Panasonic. So the question is not whether Toyota plans to have a Plug-in Prius to counter the Volt, but how many different Plug-ins will Toyota be offering in 2011. My guess is four.
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:46 pm)……………
-1
Aug 18th, 2009 (10:57 pm)its a mighty engineering achievement.. Toyota really hit a technical homerun with the latest version… and it looks great.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:03 pm)going to have to agree with Koz/Muddy River
I’d even go a step further.
Most buyers compare wide ranges of cars to each other. Buyers typically say “what can I afford with what I want to spend” and believe it not, many actually think about the long term costs of a car.
I think the Volt makes an unique value proposition, but then I am “insider”.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:18 pm)“It doesn’t seem to me likely that the sticker is going to show any separate numbers for CD mode.”
Actually, we have no clue what the sticker will look like. We don’t even know for sure what 230 MPG is…. or the 250 Wh/mile.
Its based on SAE J1711 methodology, yes. But what cycles? City?
Personally, I think its counterproductive (and counter-intuitive) to have City/Hwy SAE J1711 calculations… as under the city cycle, I would need to be driving more than 2 hours to reach CS mode, which is a heck of alot of driving in one day. Conversely, SAE J1711 numbers don’t make that much sense for the Highway. Most people will burn through the 30-40 AER in under 30 minutes… making the CS number actually mean something for someone driving long distances. I hope that the final sticker has just 3 numbers
“Combined” MPG SAE J1711
“Combined” Electric at Wall SAE J1711
CS EPA 2008 Highway
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:20 pm)But thats the idea of Voltec. Your engine should always get HWY mileage.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:28 pm)If you do it please don’t show it to anyone but enthusiasts. It will convince the general public that electric cars are little crap vehicles and that anyone selling an EV for “real” car prices is a scammer.
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:37 pm)MuddyRoverRob
I laughed at those guys that bought the $20,000 TVs. I guess now it’s just my turn to be laughed at.
+1
Aug 18th, 2009 (11:42 pm)Whilst DaV8or answered the first part of your comment, I’m not sure I understand the last part of your post, “If you are claiming that Prius was some invention of the electric motor or regenerative braking, then I suggest doing some additional research.” I most certainly am- it was a great move to capture otherwise lost kinetic energy and put it back into the drive chain by first storing it and then using it in an electric motor as required. It would seem Toyota has quite a few patents around this, so this leads me to believe that without electric motors, batteries, and regenerative breaking, there would be no synergy drive and Prius as we know it – Even the name is Latin meaning “to precede”. The idea was to be ahead of all other cars as a benchmark of what is to follow. as stated, these technologies allowed the Prius to exist as we know it, otherwise it would just be a fairly aerodynamic car. Perhaps I am confused and you can point me to research which clearly states otherwise.
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:00 am)texas… I would presume your from Texas?
Where I live, it is nearly impossible to drive on the highway above 65 mph. Even the friggen car pool lane often has someone traveling barely above 60 mph in it.
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:07 am)The latest news on the Vectrix: they are going to file for bankruptcy. Sad since I thought it is a very nice looking bike and very affordable.
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:11 am)It wouldn’t surprise me if as the battery technology improves that GM would be able to increase the AER. GM has stated they intend to lower the price as the technology results in lighter and smaller battteries. They may find, however, that consumers want the greater range.
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:16 am)Check out other articles here and in the news. GM,s mules got 40 miles AER and in some cases better.
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:29 am)If you look to one side with blinders on, you wouldn’t have noticed that GM mules have been tested and gave real world results. But time will tell! Lets see what information Lyle posts here in the future. Then we can accurately state what’s real or imaginary.
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:29 am)Captain ,
I agree with you ,
I can see a Class Action Law Suit against GM for false advertising too .
Seems to be too much wild undocumented tossing around of outlandish mileage claims.
-2
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:45 am)9 years of data is just a click away.
900 posts have included the link.
Haven’t tried it yet?
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:57 am)They already have a racing BEV that has six wheels, a real monster car
With all sorts of technological developments in the battery arena, the issue of extended range MPG will be less and less important as more AER miles accrue.
Signs of recovery: CNN just announced that GM has added new jobs. For those of you keep bashing the government investment in GM with our tax dollars, talk to a GM employee who has been called back to work. Be glad our government has bailed GM and Chrysler out. We can see both companies recovering from the recession putting Americans back to work. The investment of your tax dollars will result in huge payback when they sell their GM shares in the near future.
Happy trails to you, trolls, until we meet again.
Aug 19th, 2009 (1:07 am)“It must be remembered..”
“1- the ICE does not drive the car, just the GENSET”
Yes it does, indirectly – In Charge Sustaining mode all the energy to propel the Volt has to come from the ICE via the generator+electronics+traction motor whilst burning gasoline.
“2- the energy losses are from the ELECRTIC motor to the drive.”
Agreed, also including the losses from the generator and power electronics.
“3- those lossesa re there ALL THE TIME. it does not magically increase when the ICE is running. The ICE simply replaces the cord in your garage, providing power to the battery”
Yes but we’re talking about CS mode only.
The Volts ICE has zero mechanical connection to the drive train, thus the mechanical energy output from the ICE is converted to electrical energy and therefore must incur losses, which will have to be made up for by burning more gasoline.
“4- power losses from gen set to batt, batt to motor will be less than 0.5% at ALL TIMES.”
You’re assuming unrealistic numbers of 99.5% efficiency.
Real-world figures are more likely to be <95% for the Generator 95% for the control electronics and about 90% for the induction Motor = 81.23% of the original ICE output available to drive the wheels.
Comparing a vehicle rated at 50mpg with direct mechanical coupling driving the wheels (Prius) to a Volt, which will have to make up for conversion losses, by burning more gasoline to achieve the same mileage; I think it will be a very challenging process for GM.
In CS mode (long distance travel) I’m hoping for mpg in the low 40s, but 50mpg is highly unlikely unfortunately.
Aug 19th, 2009 (1:17 am)Your camper has big roof surface are therefore it is reasonable using solar. Maybe Voltec van would be more suitable for solar panels. And the price is still very high.
Aug 19th, 2009 (1:26 am)GM claims that Volt will be serise free. It’ luxury add.
+2
Aug 19th, 2009 (1:38 am)The only thing Volt should be compared to is other similarly priced cars period.
Generally speaking the more you pay for anything , the higher the price is the better the quality .
By comparing the Volt to the Prius just gives the impression of lowering the quality of the Volt .
We all know that GM is working their buts off to make the Volt the highest quality car ever produced by Chevrolet , a new chapter and a new beginning of quality cars from a proudly American founded company .
From now on all cars made by GM will be the best quality that technology can produce .
Compare quality with quality and price with price
size and color doesn’t matter here .
A Volt is a $40,000.00 high tech luxury car , it is not a $25,000.00 go to work in car .
Aug 19th, 2009 (4:12 am)True dat if beaking is kept within regen range (which should be broader than the Prius’ because of the much larger battery) AND without the huge aero losses.
This is why the Volt will outperform the Prius in CS city MPG.
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (4:46 am)The Volt is not designed for not plugging in regularly, so neither should the MPG nor marketing be geared toward this unintended audience.
Aug 19th, 2009 (4:59 am)You should believe your engineering friend rather than your gut when it comes to an engineering issue.
Aug 19th, 2009 (5:42 am)zipdrive,
I have been there a couple of times.
You are so lucky. What a beautiful place you live at.
I’ll be sure to say hi when I am in town.
I will take you for spin in the Volt.
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (6:23 am)The only thing Volt should be compared to is other similarly priced cars period.
Generally speaking the more you pay for anything , the higher the price is the better the quality .
By comparing the Volt to the Prius just gives the impression of lowering the quality of the Volt .
We all know that GM is working their buts off to make the Volt the highest quality car ever produced by Chevrolet , a new chapter and a new beginning of quality cars from a proudly American founded company .
From now on all cars made by GM will be the best quality that technology can produce .
Compare quality with quality and price with price
size and color doesn’t matter here .
A Volt is a $40,000.00 high tech luxury car , it is not a $25,000.00 go to work Prius .
Aug 19th, 2009 (6:23 am)First lets get one thing straight, I have no idea what the hell I am talking about and really am just throwing out ideas. That said, I will now continue on…
” There must be some reason that they use electricity instead of internal combustion engines.”
On trains, perhaps this is because trains need very high torque at zero speed to take off. Electric motors provide this. Try clutching an ICE to get a 100,000 ton train moving from a dead stop.
“Electric motors convert 75% of the chemical energy from the batteries to power the wheels—internal combustion engines (ICEs) only convert 20% of the energy stored in gasoline.”
These numbers are not what I am getting at. I am looking at the simple problem of the Volt travelling down the road at 65 mph with a battery that is “empty” (at 30%). At this time, we are at a steady state condition where the Engine runs (at its rated efficiency) to turn the generator which spits out electrons to the motors which turn that back into mechanical power to turn the wheels.
THe comparison I am making starts at the output shaft of the motor. Engine efficiency is upstream of this and will affect the Volt or the standard car in the same way in my simple minded example.
What is more efficicient?
1. Torque from the engine used to drive some gearing in a standard transmission tied directly to the drive shaft/
or
2. Torque from the engine used to crank a generator which generates electricity and then sends this electricity to a motor which in turn spins a shaft tied directly to the drive shaft.
In case 1, you already have torque on a shaft and you can get this to the wheels pretty directly. Case 2 is fairly indirect.
The question should be… What has more loss, a standard transmission or the mechanical power to electric to mechanical power of case 2.
Now I know that we might be able to get the engine to be more efficient in the Volt but it is also true that auto engineers could optimize the engine in a standard car to be most efficient at some highway speed.
I think the answer is not as obvious as your post implies. Also, re-read line one of the post to keep this all in perspective.
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (6:32 am)People who cannot plug in regulary are probably wasting their money if they buy a Volt.
The Cruze or a standard hybrid would make more sense in this type of scenario.
Aug 19th, 2009 (6:34 am)If you do something else also, called “diagramming sentences”, you might be surprised to find out who it likely might be.
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (6:40 am)(clicked the wrong button to edit).
I use “diagramming sentence structure” to determine if someone is being aversive, unethical, etc, and, it can really save you a lot of unnecessary involvement with situations that would never go anywhere ever. (Especially here where “handles” are utilized.)
That way, it is really easy to consider it all as “irrelevant background noise” that one need not ever respond to or bother with.
Aug 19th, 2009 (6:53 am)Don’t you “handle” playing cards, CJS?
Lyle called, and my hand is good, IMO of course.
+2
Aug 19th, 2009 (7:14 am)Toyoda knows the Volt has leap frogged them and they are trying hard to catch up. I still believe they are putting their backs to the wall in an all out effort to come up with an E-REV car as close to NOW as they can.
Aug 19th, 2009 (7:23 am)Yeah, the poster who was buying one mentioned that, but said he got a good deal. Hopefully others will pick up the torch. I’m sure Honda has something in progress.
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (7:24 am)It takes about 12 HP to cruise a full sized car at 60 MPH. You don’t have to figure too long to figure it’s going to be pretty high. The Prius mechanical approach is dinosaur relic type stuff.
Aug 19th, 2009 (7:36 am)What I want the EPA to determine is:
What is the actual all electric mileage achieved in hot and cold weather (With A/C or heater running)
What is the gas fuel economy for city and highway driving in charge sustaining mode.
With this information we have what we need to make educated decisions about how this vehicle will work for us.
Aug 19th, 2009 (7:40 am)Place your bets!
Aug 19th, 2009 (7:44 am)MY GUESS is the ICE will nearly allways be running in a sweet spot. I think the control of the ICE speed will be a result of battery SOC and not MPH. As the battery SOC drops the ICE will move up to the next sweet spot and stay there till the SOC has regained enough energy and will then drop back to a lower sweet spot.
Aug 19th, 2009 (8:04 am)Hey Dan,
Did you go to a Catholic school like me? We had to diagram sentences till we were blue in the face. Actually, I was quite good at it.
I do a similar thing to what you mentioned, ie. if a sentence isn’t structured reasonably well I skip it because the intelligence is just not there and so it’s not worth reading.
People who can’t think straight also usually can’t construct sentences that others can read easily. I know there are exceptions since there are madmen out there who can write well. It’s just a general rule I use when I’m reading stuff here. It saves me time and I can get to the good posts faster.
Aug 19th, 2009 (8:26 am)1- the ICE does not drive the car, just the GENSET”
Yes it does, indirectly – In Charge Sustaining mode all the energy to propel the Volt has to come from the ICE via the generator+electronics+traction motor whilst burning gasoline.
This is the point tho..the ICE only drives the genset..the losses fromthe ICE to move the car are not applicable because it is INDIRECT. The losses to drive the car will NOT affect how efficently the ICE uses fuel is my point.
“2- the energy losses are from the ELECRTIC motor to the drive.”
Agreed, also including the losses from the generator and power electronics.
No denying that
“3- those lossesa re there ALL THE TIME. it does not magically increase when the ICE is running. The ICE simply replaces the cord in your garage, providing power to the battery”
Yes but we’re talking about CS mode only.
The Volts ICE has zero mechanical connection to the drive train, thus the mechanical energy output from the ICE is converted to electrical energy and therefore must incur losses, which will have to be made up for by burning more gasoline.
Again I agree.. with 0 connection, but not with must burn more fuel
“4- power losses from gen set to batt, batt to motor will be less than 0.5% at ALL TIMES.”
You’re assuming unrealistic numbers of 99.5% efficiency.
Real-world figures are more likely to be <95% for the Generator 95% for the control electronics and about 90% for the induction Motor = 81.23% of the original ICE output available to drive the wheels.
I think you mis understand. I am not talking genset efficiency here.. I am saying that if the genset makes 100 kw output, 99.5 will be delivered to the electric motor. How the motor converts it does not affect the ICE, the loss of conversion from electrical source (be it battery or ICE/genset) will be there regardless.
The ICE uses gasoline. 1 gallon is 114000 btu. = 33.4 Kw. We see that the volt will go 100 miles on 25kw if the ICE / genset is 50% efficeint, then that equals 1.5 gallons, or 66 miles /gallon of gas.
The total overall point I was making is that the factors many people cite weight of the vehicle, drag, etc..has NO impact on ICE..that affect the electric motor and its conversion of energy to motion, and affect it at all times, whether the ICE is running or not.. the only loss the ICE EVER experiences is converting fuel to electricity
Aug 19th, 2009 (8:32 am)Right N.
Thanks,
JC
Aug 19th, 2009 (9:06 am)Until we solve the multiple problems with hydrogen fuel cells and hydrogen infrastructure, I’m hoping that GM is going to have an small, super quiet, inexpensive, lightweight, ultra efficient IC engine in Generation 2 of the Volt that can use gasoline, E85, algae “biogasoline”, etc.
Perhaps it will be a “free-piston engine”. You might see Volt 2.0′s IC engine getting 80-90 mpg in generator mode.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/10/free-piston-engines-efficient-plug-in-hybrid-cars-electric.php
“The first few series plug-in hybrids (like the GM Volt and Fisker Karma) will use regular 4-cylinder gas engines as generators, but free-piston engines could potentially change all that someday: 1) They have very low friction, 2) only one moving part, 3) are about 50% efficient (about TWICE as good as gas engine and better than diesel), 4) and they generate electricity directly.”
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/21442/
Aug 19th, 2009 (9:45 am)Let me chime in with congratulations on the graphic! I actually had started to look at the formula on the chalkboard, just for laughs. For a second or two I was amazed that Einstein had actually been concerned with Wh/gal!
Aug 19th, 2009 (10:40 am)Toyota has patents on the refinements of the technology, but the fundamental concept of the Prius powertrain with the power split planetary gear set was patented by TRW in 1972.
Aug 19th, 2009 (11:23 am)If you live in OK, it’s another 50% off the 10k.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/incentives/
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/progs/ind_state_laws.php/OK/HEV
You never break even on a vehicle, so your negative thinking escapes me. Get one if you want one, don’t get one if you don’t want one. Since you sound like a fence sitter, performance electric drive probably isn’t for you. If you ride a Zero S like a moped, it’ll likely rip out from under you and dump you on your a@@ – it’s a serious performance machine with hard core torque to weight.
I put over 9,000 miles a year on my kitted Zero X.
Aug 19th, 2009 (11:33 am)I’m almost at break even on my scooter. I’m not worried about getting dumped, rode motorbikes my whole life. I read that it cost $5000 to replace the battery and they only have a 2yr warranty. That scares me too.
-2
Aug 19th, 2009 (11:37 am)9.6KWH for 40 miles of driving. Let’s see, my last electric bill showed 66KWH for the month. If I only drive the car 40 miles per day, that’s 7×9.6 or 67.2 KWH per week, not taking into account charger losses. That’s already per week what I’m using per month, so my electric bill is going to quintuple. That means I’m going to be spending somewhere over $300 per month. Also, if the electric company doesn’t have enough power to handle warm days now, how are they going to handle a portion of their customers drawing almost 10KWH per day?
Aug 19th, 2009 (11:44 am)And another takes its place:
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/27/former-tesla-science-director-joins-scooter-maker-start-up/
Bankruptcy simply means that other (or the same) folks will ultimately be using any and all of their worthwhile tech in other applications, while others will continue to put out similar products, having learned valuable lessons from Vectrix’s business model mistakes.
http://www.pluginamerica.org/plug-in-vehicle-tracker.html#2%20&%203%20Wheel%20Vehicles
Look for updates once a month at the above link.
BTW, mopeds, scooters, and motorcycles are very different vehicles.
There are also a bunch of hybrid two and three wheelers in development and launching, some by major OEMS, such as Honda, Piaggio (#1 in Eurpoean sales) and Peugeot.
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1022083_peugeot-hymotion-hybrid-motorcycle-goes-on-sale-in-2010
None of this is news. I often get the impression that most of the folks on this board (and GM) are pretty behind the curve in knowing what’s happening in the growing electric vehicle markets, a nice green shoot in this sour economy.
Aug 19th, 2009 (12:11 pm)What does break even mean to you? Vehicles are not an investment.
Unless you’ve ridden performance electric motorcycles, so that you understand how much torque to weight they have off the line and when you throttle aggressively, you should be worried about getting dumped by one. BTW, all of them come with algorithm options to dampen the electric drive capability for all gasser newbies to get used to the superior performance. These machines are emphatically not your moped.
I’m sorry that electric vehicles scare you. Why are on this site, if that’s the case?
Aug 19th, 2009 (1:56 pm)Break even means its paid for itself. That’s pretty plain & simple. And vehicles are most certainly an investment. I dont know why you would even consider that they aren’t. Essentially every purchase you make in your life is technically an investment.
I’m not worried about getting dumped at all. Heck, even Jay Leno didn’t crash.
And electric vehicles dont scare me in the least, its the cost. I’m on this site because this is a Volt site. The Volts batteries have a warranty for 10years/150K miles, and GM did/is doing extensive testing. When i hear the CEO of Zero simply say “Oh, its $5000 to replace the battery pack”, that frightens my pocketbook. If my $10K bike ends up costing me 20K after 6 years, no thankyou.
Don’t be so defensive. Sorry if I hit a nerve.
Aug 19th, 2009 (2:41 pm)huh?
No vehicle pays for itself, thus the concept of depreciation. Please talk to an accountant if you think that a vehicle is an investment (with some very, vary rare exceptions). I “consider that they aren’t” because the US IRS considers that they aren’t. If you want to argue with the IRS, be my guest.
No nerve hit at all. I don’t feel defensive at all. I’m sorry that you think that I am.
You are not Jay Leno (or maybe you are?).
I’m also sorry if you think that $5 k in OK for a high performance motorcycle is a high cost. It just plain isn’t.
I’m glad that the Volt offers such a good warranty. Maybe you should buy a Volt? The off topic thread was about electric motorcycles, not your gasser moped and not the Volt. If you want to talk about the Volt, please start a new post thread that’s not about electric motorcycles.
Last, performance electric motorycles have one similarity to the Volt, which is performance 100% electric drive. Can you say the same about your gas moped?
Aug 19th, 2009 (2:55 pm)5 (in OK) plus 5 (extra power pack in 6 years, if you want one) = 10, not 20. It’s not like the original power pack will be useless, it’ll just have a slightly lower range (if mine is any guide so far, about the same as the OEM listed range).
Aug 19th, 2009 (3:04 pm)Paid for itself (i’ll make up an example)
If it cost me $10/day to take a cab to work, but I buy a bicycle for $100 to use instead, after 10 days the bicycle has paid for itself.
I dont live in OK. The electric bike could cost $50, but if it didnt make financial sense, or i couldnt justify it w/some type of reasoning, i still would buy it. I will buy a Volt as soon as its possible for me to do so.
I brought up the Volt in this thread beacause you asked why I was on this site. Beause its a site about the Volt.
What my “gasser” moped has in common with the Volt is the reduced amount of oil it uses compared to typical means of transportation in my area. 80mpg is nothing to sneeze at and every bit helps.
Aug 19th, 2009 (3:22 pm)Fair enough. I’m glad that we agree to agree.
BTW, my feet have already paid for themselves.
+1
Aug 19th, 2009 (3:37 pm)Bullshit.
First
66kWh a month is way too small, even for a 1 bedroom apartment with no heater or air conditioning. That works out to be around 90 W of continous draw. Less than the applicance vampire loads for most places. If your 66kWh was average for a whole year, that works out to less than 1,000 kWh per year. The Average US household, according to the DOE, uses 11,000 kWh, so your using less than 10% the power of the average.
Lastly, you say “quintuple”, which impies your current electric bill is around 60 dollars for 66kWh. A rate per kWh of around .91 dollars. The US average is .11, so your paying 9 times the average as you bill???
No. I bet you used 660 kWh for a month and payed around .10 cents per kWh.
Second
Don’t confused Energy with Power. 10kWh per day is easily obtainable in even the most hardpressed states, by simply running their power systems all day. California is a good example of this. Thier nightimes loads are significantly less than Summer/Mid Day loads. So at night, they shut off some thier Natural Gas Turbines (Which produced 60% of thier power). California could easily generate extra 10 kWh of energy per person each day. Just not a the peak time since the power margin is fairly low (~5%)
Aug 19th, 2009 (3:59 pm)I always thought that was a point most people missed.
The Volt doesn’t need to be cheaper to operate than a 15,000 Stipped Civic or a 21,000 stripped Prius.
The Volt needs to be priced to be compeditive…. which if the MSRP is around 42,500 (for a “loaded” Leather, Nav, etc car) it will be. Right between a loaded Civic and a loaded Accord….
Aug 19th, 2009 (4:05 pm)Well… the latest reporst seems to indicate that GM will force a gas cycle every now and then… you know to ensure clear fuel lines and the like.
Aug 19th, 2009 (4:15 pm)I think cost will ultimately be more important.
I would take a 30 AER over a 40 AER, with the 3/4 battery discount * warranty costs.
40 – 50 AER really is a sweet spot, since a battery needs to be so large to have the required power draw and reserve. Not much to be gained going to 60+ for most people except extra cost to the battery.
Aug 19th, 2009 (4:19 pm)If GM was including a 12+ gallon tank, I would be less concerned about the CS mode. But since they are going with a scainty 6-7 gallon tank… it concerns me. I want to be able to travel ~300 miles on a tank of gas, with 350 being preferable. If I can’t, it starts to limit the usage of a Volt… course I really dislike other people filling up my gas tank, so the ability to travel from California to Washington without having to stop for gas in Oregon has an unatural appeal.
Aug 19th, 2009 (7:42 pm)14 years ago approx. GM had the all electric Impact that ended up being marketed only as a lease vehicle with the new name being EV1. The limited production vehicles cost 1/4 million each (incl. reseach and developement) for 50 vehicles.
GM tried to get the get the per unit cost down in the $30,000 range for selling purposes and failed. Therefore they leased them for about 2 years total and then shredded the cars and the program.
They proved that they could build an all electric car. They set the all electric land speed record with the Impact (adding batteries and a rear cowling that tapered to a point) of 153 mph if I recall.
I drove this vehicle. It was a beautiful car. Fast, rode nice, air conditioned, the works.
It was either 2900# or 3100# depending on whether they had the 1500# or 1700# battery pack.
At that time it was estimated that the mpg (cost of electric using coal fired plants) was 130mpg.
All of this talk about the Volt doesn’t include any cost of electricity in the 230mpg statement. It wrongly implies that you will use one gallon of gas for every 230 city miles therefore getting 230 mpg. That statement assumes that you will be getting free electricity to charge the batteries every day for the 40 “free” miles on a charge.
This is a very gross misstatement or statement.
GM needs to talk real figures including cost of electricity. As mentioned there will be huge variables depending on driving habits and city vs. highway (elec. vs. gen powered), so this will be difficult to narrow down and submit an average real figure of mpg.
If the all electric Impact/EV1 only got 130 calculated mpgs, then the hybrid elec/genset Volt will get considerably less than that. (and electric prices have risen considerably in the last 14 years)
And people will still not be able to afford to buy one. My guess is that you can buy the biggest gas guzzler SUV and be more cost effective in all around usability and cost per available seat in the vehicle.
Aug 19th, 2009 (8:06 pm)EVNow Reply:They have already said 25 kWh/100 miles – which comes to 32 miles / charge (i.e. 8 kWh).
————————————
Your calculations are flawed.
Remember that the 25 kWh/100 miles figure does not correspond to what is stored in the battery. Rather, 25 kWh/100 miles is what comes out of your home electrical outlet.
If we assume the charger is 90% efficient, and the battery itself in charging mode is 90% efficient, then the amount of charge actually being stored in the battery is 20 kWh/100 miles, or 8kWh/40 miles.
Aug 19th, 2009 (9:41 pm)TRW and 1972 is not a lot to go on, and I was unable to find the referenced patent as it was issued before 1975 and requires more data (I did try to briefly sift through other patents looking for a reference but none was forthcoming)
This does not change the Prius being born out of the need to store kinetic energy to use latter (be they implementations or advancements in current technology). Actually it was not my point to say “that Prius was some invention of the electric motor or regenerative braking”, it would be closer to say “without the regenerative braking and electric motor there would be not Prius (among other components)”.
Simply, the Prius we know was born because these technologies allows storage of otherwise lost energy. Take them away, and it’s not the Prius, it’s something else (generally speaking, a rose without its thorns will go by another name). The goal was to store energy, not to try just use a split planetary gear set; or for that matter a battery, or regenerative breaking, or an electric motor, wires, aerodynamics, and a host of other parts required that would fall under “etc…”, but take away a fundamental part that cannot be replace with another idea so readily, and you no longer have a Prius, you have something else. At the end of the day, the idea was to store kinetic energy lost when slowing down whilst breaking to assist the motor at take off. Without the regenerative breaking and use of an electric motor, this would not have happened in the way it did so they are fundamental to the design. Without them, you don’t get the Pruis, you get an underpowered car with a split planetary gear set that serves no purpose. Without seeing the patent you mentioned, I cant say how much it was used in the design, how to improve or invent another solution. But I do know without a battery, electric motors, or regenerative breaking, good luck with storing energy (rubber bands aside).
Aug 19th, 2009 (11:35 pm)I wasn’t able to search and find the patent.
But I did find the reference to the paper where they published the design:
G.H. Gelb, N. A. Richardson, T.C. Wang, B. Berman, “An Electromechanical Transmission for Hybrid Vehicle Powertrains,” SAE paper no. 710235, Jan. 1971
Aug 20th, 2009 (8:52 am)If GM doesn’t know who else knows. The 50MPG fiqure sounds good but this lately 230 crapoela needs to stop. How about GM doing some test and fiqure out how much MPG the Volts gets in it is running on the Internal Combustion Engine. I can do that for GM if I get a big bonus.
Please do not insult our intelligence as to the purely operating on battery MPG. With my limited intelligence I would guess 40 MP ON No Gallons.
Aug 20th, 2009 (10:28 am)Man i wish audi still makes the 1.2 tdi A2…
it could easily do 70 MPG. And that’s a 5 doors 5 seater with a good trunk were a person could fit in.
( i did the km/liter conversion… some even did 40 kilometers on 1 liter of diesel )
That car had all the luxery you have in a modern car.. and what you could expect from an audi. Tiptronic shift system, climate control… whatever you can imagen. It was fucking ahead of it’s time…. such cars do we need. Not these battery powered cars. We need to go to more efficient engines and lower weight ( ah ye the chassis of the audi was fully made of aluminium ) and had a CW of 0,25
Anyway.. it’s always the costs were the consumer will look at..
I always make calculation with lineair craphics to see how in how much years a car has cost me. And what kind of luxery points it will get.
y = years * cost/year + cost of car
With the GM volt the cost of the car will be very high. But what abouth the weight?? here in europe that’s a very interesting point. You pay for the weight of the car every month. Or you pay nothing if the car is lower then 110 co2 grams. And with diesel 90 co2 grams.
just saying… GM got it all wrong with electric. I love electric but the battery’s aren’t there YET !!!
Aug 20th, 2009 (6:25 pm)One possible unintended consequence of the debate over the real world mpg between the Volt and Prius is that savvy consumers will realize that the mileage difference between the Volt and Prius really doesn’t matter. The real issue is gallons per mile (or gas/electric cost for their annual driving). The annual cost difference between, say, 30mpg and 50mpg, is surprisingly small… only $400/year for someone driving 10,000 miles per year. That’s equivalent to a car payment difference of only $25/month. Heck, some consumers would pay that much more just to get the car color they want.
Consumers won’t just be comparing the Volt to the Prius. It will also go up against the new Ford Fusion Hybrid, which is getting rave reviews, costs $12k less, and will have thousands on the road a year before the first Volt is sold. AND, it must compete against the Leaf, which is going to get the hard-core greenie buyers. As one of my two family cars, I’d take the Leaf over the Volt even if they were the same price.
After the initial flurry of purchases, the Volt is going to be hard to sell, in my opinion.
Aug 24th, 2009 (12:06 am)Yeah, but what about the sound system?
Aug 25th, 2009 (10:50 pm)What part of “miles per gallon” confuse you ?
You know they are talking about ‘gallons of gasoline’, right ?
You don’t have to include the cost of electricity, or diesel, or coal, or coffee, in the calculations of “MPG”.
And it is not GM that “needs” to do anything (“GM needs to talk real figures including cost of electricity. As mentioned there will be huge variables depending on driving habits and city vs. highway (elec. vs. gen powered), so this will be difficult to narrow down and submit an average real figure of mpg.”)
This is the EPA’s job. That’s what they’ve been doing for decades. Did you think those MPG figures on the windows of new cars did not “depend on driving habits” BEFORE ?
The EPA is trying to come up with some “reasonable” way to compare electric/plugin hybrids. GM was merely using the EPA published testing process to arrive at 230 mpg. The EPA has not yet finalized the test, they claim, nor have they yet measured the Volt for themselves. But in the end, it is the EPA’s test, not GM’s.
After Peak Oil, if they have to start rationing gasoline to people, you will be VERY interested in MPG (of gasoline). Who cares if your giant SUV has 10 available seats if your weekly ration of gasoline is used up ? How cost effective is a 6,000 pound paper weight ?
Aug 26th, 2009 (11:50 pm)We also “know” that the Volt uses 8kWh to travel 40 miles, which gives 0.2kWh per mile; therefore, 20kWh per 100 miles for the AER.
Is this 40 miles in the city, highway, or both ? It is already ‘more efficient’ than the city energy/mile above, and you say the highway efficiency should be lower… hmmmm.
We also “know” that the Volt will use a 1.4 liter 4 cylinder engine, the same as the Chevy Cruze.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2011-chevrolet-cruze1.htm
But the Cruze has only two engines, 1.8 liter 4-cylinder at 138 hp, and 1.4 liter turbocharged 4-cylinder at 140 hp (and gets about 40 mpg on the highway, with the turbo).
Yet, the Volt will not be turbocharging their 1.4 liter. And it will be used to drive a 71 hp generator (53 kW), so most likely they will be running the 1.4 liter in an Atkinson cycle, to maximize efficiency (energy per gallon of gasoline) at the expense of power. This is how they run the gas engine in many hybrids.
The key to being able to use a small, very fuel efficient gas engine in a hybrid (the Volt is a series hybrid, after the AER is over) is to have an energy buffer, to handle peak power needs, while keeping the *average* power requirements low with good aerodynamics, low rolling resistance tires, low weight, etc…
The Volt has a huge advantage over other hybrids – it’s very large battery (for comparison, the Prius only has a 1.3 kWh battery, of which they only use 40% state of charge band, or 0.52 kWh). So, just 3.25% of the Volts battery State of Charge equals what the Prius uses for its entire energy buffer.
I hope GM uses this combination of VLB (very large battery) and very fuel efficient 71 hp gasoline engine to deliver the tricky combination of 150 hp and great fuel efficiency. If they can hit 60 mpg as a series hybrid (after the initial plugin charge is gone), PLUS offer the 40 miles all electric, PLUS offering more HP than the Prius, they could have a grand slam.
Even at 50 mpg as a series hybrid (what GM calls ‘charge sustaining mode’), the 150 hp is more than the Prius’s 134 maximum hp, and with the all-electric range for commuting and doing weekend errands, this car is a home run.
I like grand slams, and home runs.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:33 pm)I think the MPG in ‘charge sustaining mode’ is a very important number, and I also think the Volt will do very well in this measurement.
The Prius used (until the 2010 model) a 76 hp gasoline engine, which could drive a generator to power the electric motor or charge the batteries, or drive a transmission straight to the wheels.
The Volt has a 71 hp gasoline engine which never worries about transmission losses to the wheels, nor worries about power and torque to the wheels: just powering a generator to make electricity for the electric motor or batteries.
I think there is a very good chance the ‘charge sustaining mode’ MPG will be 50 to 60 mpg. Which would make the Volt superior to the Prius for long road trips, and superior for short commutes and errands. The Volt should flaunt this number, if, as expected, it is very good.
The only factors that might limit that mpg number is the weight of the Volt (it is said to be 3520 pounds, while the Prius is 2932 pounds, and the Chevy Cruze is 2750 pounds), and the 150 hp performace of the electric motor (which although nice, takes more power than the Prius’ old 110 hp performance with the 76 hp gasoline engine). But if the Chevy Cruze is getting 40 mpg (highway) with a 1.4 liter 4 cylinder turbo, the Volt should be getting 50 or 60 mpg with the non-turbo 1.4 liter fuel sipping 71 hp engine.
It only takes about 20 hp to maintain highway speeds against wind resistance, friction, and to power the radio,lights and air conditioner. The large battery should allow the Volt to have 150 hp available in most situations, while still getting the great fuel efficiency of a 71 hp Atkinson cycle gas engine.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:42 pm)Recently GM revealed the production charging equipment that will come with the Volt when it can finally be bought.
There will be a portable 120 V unit (R) that can be plugged into any standard receptacle. It will be able to recharge the car fully in 6 hours at 12 amps or 8 hours at 8 amps.
The other device option (L) is a 240 V stationary wall-mounted unit that has to be installed in the owners garage per code. This unit running at 16 amps can recharge the Volt in 3 hours.
Both utilize a newly ratified interface or coupler standard called SAE J1772, that provides durability, communications, and safety functions and well as universal usability among EVs.
The Volt charging units are very robust and designed to withstand even a complete dunk in a bucket of water. As well, there is a flashlight at the tip for finding the receptacle on the car even in the dark.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
I think charging the volt for 8 hours at 8 amps shouldn’t be too much for a workplace outlet – as long as you can park close enough to an office window, and bring your own heavy duty power cord.
Having the employer put in the 240V 16 amp charging stations is a lot more problematic, agreed.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:13 pm)You think a serial hybrid with a 71 hp gas engine and a huge peak-power battery will get LESS mpg than a Chevy Cruze with a turbocharged version of THE SAME 1.4 LITER engine (which gets 40 mpg highway) ?
‘size of the tank’ ? Are you worried about the extra 7 pounds of each gallon of gasoline ?
I think the only reason the Volt mpg numbers won’t be in the 60′s for city and highway is because of the weight (the Volt is about 600 pounds more than a Prius) and the performance (150 hp is 16 hp more than the Prius, so the electric motor could use extra energy from the battery, which will require the generator to run a bit more).
The Toyota Camry Hybrid has a 147 hp gas engine (2.4 liter 4-cylinder), it delivers 192 hp peak with the electric motor added to the mix, and it still manages to get 33 mpg highway.
And you estimate 38 to 39 mpg for the Volt ?
I think you are way off, and don’t know what serial hybrids are capable of.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:41 pm)No, it’s not a “luxury” car.
It is a new-technology car, but one that is deemed important enough to the nation that it is given a $7,500 tax break.
And GM has not said it is $40K – there is still more than a year left before pricing is announced, and they have already hinted that a big part of that $40K possible price is the warranty to cover the batteries for 10 years/150,000 miles. If another year+ of battery testing convinces GM that the batteries are solid and will easily last 10 years/150K-miles, they might lower the price.
If GM prices at $37K, then with the tax break, the Volt will be $29.5. For the first 10,000 (first year of production).
That $7.5K tax break is for the first 250,000 cars (but includes the Tesla, etc) – so, for production of 10,000, then 60,000 Volts (the second year) and 60,000 more Volts (the third year, 2013), it’s possible the first 3 years of Volt production will get a $7.5K tax break.
By the 3rd year, maybe GM will get the price down to $32K (they hope to use energy saving parts on the Chevy Cruze and other models, so economies of scale kick in faster: energy saving radios, headlights, wipers, airconditioners, blinkers, heaters, etc – helping the fuel economy of their other models in a win/win situation).
At $32K, with the tax break that is $24.5K.
$24,500.
That is not a “luxury car”, that is the future of automobiles.
And by 2014, who knows how cheap li-ion batteries will be, and how cheap the warranty for 10 years/150K miles will be priced.
And the Volt might have an aluminum-foam-alloy chassis by then, or carbon-fiber-epoxy parts, making it 1000 pounds lighter… who knows. Gasoline might be $5/gallon. They might ramp up production to 200,000 units/year, and sign long term contracts with battery companies to get 16kWh 200 pound batteries at $2000 each for another 1 million batteries (a nice $2 billion contract for some company; well, the cells, since GM builds the battery modules).
3 years of fairly low production numbers with subsidized prices will open the doors to a new family of low cost, 21st century cars.
Aug 28th, 2009 (12:05 am)I was thinking the same thing, about powering the car by pedaling (well, not while driving, but my kids are very young…)
http://www.econvergence.net/electroacc.htm
This generator allows you to hook up a good bicycle that you are comfortable on, and generate about 320 watts (200 average, 320 if you are in shape)
Figure 3 hours of pedaling for 1 kWh.
So, 24 hours of hard pedaling to charge the Volt for one 40 mile ride (without worrying, for now, about an inverter that allows you to step up the voltage to 120 v, etc) – it gives a good sense of how much energy we command with electrical outlets and gasoline.
I remember a scene in the movie “Soylent Green” with Charlton Heston riding a bike to power his apartment for the day…
+1
Sep 6th, 2009 (2:28 pm)The cars the Volt will be competing against will be the Chinese BYD compaines hybrid, which is already on the market in China and is almost exactly the same design as the Volt (Warren Buffet has 10% of BYD) .
The other will be the Volvo Recharge, with PML light weight inwheel 24 phase motor/electric brakes. Chrysler will have model out as well.
I believe the Volvo is the next generation design, no transmision or mechanical brakes, except for parking.
The Pious design is is so out of date now, good at the time but things have moved on. Toyota and Honda just don’t get it.
These types of BEVs are part of the grand plan to move away from oil, where the electric to charge them can be generated from Coal to Solar and moved around on High Voltage Direct Current super grids. The day will come when you won’t be able to buy a direct drive ICE car. Just think of the Volt as the begining of the Paradym shift in car design and stop worrying about how many miles to the gallon, its the electric range that matters.