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Poll: What Will the Volt’s MPG in Charge Sustaining Mode be?
Now that GM has announced the Volt will average 230 MPG in city driving, we are interested in knowing more.
When the Volt concept was first unveiled in January 2007, GM said the car would get 50 MPG average when it was in generator mode based on computer simulations.
We understand the car will get up to 40 miles of pure electric driving from a fully charged battery, and that the average city driver will average 230 miles of cumulative driving on a gallon of gas, but what will the average fuel economy be in charge sustaining mode?
When the battery reaches a roughly 30% state-of-charge, its 1.4 L 4-cylinder engine will fire up, spin a generator, and produce electricity.
That electricity will purely be used to power the 110 kw electric motor, though the battery will still have that 30% hearty buffer and contribute to driving power demands as necessary. Furthermore, any braking, coasting or downhill opportunities will allow the recapture kinetic energy into the battery.
Clearly this series-hybrid design differs considerably then the typical power-split architecture of today’s modern hybrids like the Prius. It is of great interest to see how much fuel economy it can attain.
I recently asked Volt line engineer Tony Posawatz whether the production Volt would still get 50 MPG like the concept was promoted to. He said “that was just the concept,” though he didn’t specify what the real car will get.
Frank Weber when asked the same question said the story would eventually be told, but not right now.
So with this uncertainly why not a little speculation? What will the series hybrid mode fuel economy be? And how important is that number to us?
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August 18th, 2009 at 7:51 am
As long it’s more than the Prius.
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August 18th, 2009 at 7:52 am
It will be a great dissapointment if it is not close to the 50 Mark.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:00 am
First, I just love that picture of Einstein superimposed in front of Voltec electricity numbers!! That really “hits” home the physics of change that I believe electric drive will attain for us.
All the numbers-crunchers ought to save that one for a wall poster. (I am). That picture ought to be made available by Lyle instead of the “T”-shirts when we contribute to his marathon fund raiser for stroke research. (I would need one in time for my talk at the Renewable Energy Roundup on Sept 26th-ish of next month).
So VERY much will depend on how you drive your Volt in the attainment of MPG’s. If I am able to test one, I will strictly adhere to the most normally-gentle driving characteristics the traffic pattern requires, so that automated feedback can be properly acquired. No temptation to “racing” will at all be entertained whatsoever if other drivers at stop lights somehow indicate the “let me see what it’ll do” impulse.
(But I would not go irritatingly-slow to artificially increase the numbers either, just keep pace with a normal acceleration rate of the other vehicles).
I am going to print out this above picture on my low-res printer. But, it would be a great idea Lyle, if you could set up your own link of all these TERRIFIC Volt pictures that folks who donate to your cause could access from, say, Kinko’s, for them to print out large poster size pictures for us.
Do you think that would work?
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:02 am
I vote for “I dunno” variant
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:03 am
I think it will be a number around 40-45 mpg.
This is based on nothing more than my relatively uninformed engineering judgement in response to the poll question.
I assume the same number for both highway and city.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Good PS edit of AE & chalkboard! I am thinking lower 40’s for real world average driver based on average use of AC & other electricity using devices. 48 maybe downhill or in Florida during hurricane season headed out of town or maybe on a calm day with one person (under 200 lbs) with everything non essential turned off. I personnally although would love it, just don’t see 50 MPG except under laboratory ideal conditions. I hope I am proven wrong! The ICE has been around a long time & other than the first Honda Insight has not really achieved it in normal driving.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:06 am
It has to be better than Toyota or Toyota is going to have a field day with their advertising on the Prius . So GM runs 40 miles on electricity , big deal , what does it get on gasoline ?
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:11 am
You’re absolutely right, Joe! The “sticker wars” (arguments as to what the EV & EREV window stickers should show as “mileage” or “efficiency”) will hopefully be resolved so as to include both CITY & HWY figures for the Volt in CD mode. And both numbers MUST be better than those for the much less expensive Prius!*
*If not, GM will suffer significant lost sales to Toyota!
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Actually i tend to agree with you.
If a 1.4L generator in the Volt being used to power an electric motor cannot do one better than the Prius, then GM is still playing catchup with the Prius’s 10 year old technology. It should be Remembered both cars at this point would only be using regenerative breaking to assist their respective motors.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:13 am
With great aerodynamics, the highway mileage will probably be great at 55-60 mph. But with the Volts weight approaching 4000 pounds it will be tough for the Volt to beat the Prius in charge sustaining mode if the generator isn’t off at least part of the time. GM has repeatedly stated that the generator will not completely recharge the battery, but that some extra electricity will be sent to the battery in charge sustaining mode. I think the Volt will get about 45 mpg when the generator is on and the car is being driven in a typical city setting. But if the generator produces 25 kW and the car needs 15 kW to tool around at 35 mph and stop at the occasional red light… After 8 or 10 minutes of use the generator will shut off and the Volt will go back to all electric mode, maybe for 2 or 3 minutes, but maybe for 4 or 5. If the latter, the Volts mileage could be quite impressive, in 60-70 mpg range. Something that even the Prius will not be able to achieve, because it is a gasoline powered car with a tiny electric motor to assist it.
And the Volt haters will still scream that GM is cooking the books…
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Volt weight = 3520 lbs. Prius weight = 3042 lbs. It will be intersting to see if the Volt can match the Prius MPG with the extra 500 lbs of weight. Even if the Volt comes in a bit less – say 45 MPG that’s not a big deal since most Volt commute drivers will be in the AER.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:16 am
My guess of 50-60 mpg is based on my style of driving and the highway milage I get with the old Buick. In addition to the style of driving I think and hope that the constant load [ force required to rotate ] the engine will experience will add to the milage. The major changes in force required to rotate will be to the electric motor. And this change will be buffered by the battery. A set of nearly constant sweet spot ICE speeds should surprise us!
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:17 am
“GM said the car would get 50 MPG average when it was in generator mode based on computer simulations.”
If the simulations predicted 50MPG when the car was shaped like a brick I would assume it has to be significantly better now that aerodynamics have been optimized.
This is of course assuming that simulations were well thought out systems level models as opposed to .04 second simulations done in Bob Lutz’s head.
If it was a Bobo simulation I just hope the pink tie wasn’t too tight that day!
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:17 am
I’d be glad to drive a Volt from Michigan to Florida if GM wants some real world data.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Better than ideal (downhill w/tailwind) 50+mpg
Ideal conditions (flat road, 50degrees, no wind, going 45mph) ~48mpg
Real world ~40mpg
my guestimate based on all that i’ve learned.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:24 am
I agree completely.
It is a very important point to me since my commute is 101 miles daily.
If I can charge at work and get 50 MPG for the 21 miles of generator use, I will be happy. Especially since I don’t really believe I will be getting 40 miles out of the battery while on the highway, with A/C, headlights, and radio all turned on. I’m thinking (hoping?) 35 miles.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:24 am
I believe it will be higher than 60. Take an efficient small engine, driving asmall load , (comapratively to movingt he entire auto) tuned to maximum efficiency at specific RPMs that will always run in a steady state…
gonna be high…
I looked at a Honda generator designed for an HVAC app, it produces a steady 1.2 Kw 24/7, tuned to max efficiency at a specific RPM and is rated at 90% efficient (so much so, it condenses (it runs on natural gas) they had to modify the exhaust design to handle condensate.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:26 am
it just HAST TO BE above the 50mpg mark. We all know it.
Everything else would be a PR desaster – although the basic goal is never to use the ICE mode.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:28 am
Presumably we should think of charge-sustaining as having both a city and a hwy value, as charge-sustaining will encompass both. My guess is 28 city 38 hwy for combined EPA of about 32 mpg. That’s somewhat better than the current Cobalt, to which the Volt is similar in size. The Volt is more aerodynamic, a plus, but heavier, a minus, and the electric drivetrain is going to introduce some losses (a minus), perhaps overcome by some buffering possibilities (a plus). My guess is that the plusses and minuses largely offset each other.
So, to me 32 combined is a good result, not a bad one. What is special about the Volt is the plug-in capability, not charge-sustaining mode.
People who want to compare to Prius can compare the Volt’s mythical 230 mpg rating, the perhaps-to-be “official EPA value,” rather than an ICE or charge-sustaining value.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:30 am
I do agree with that. It better beat the Prius.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:38 am
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:41 am
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:44 am
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:45 am
And I will volunteer to drive it from CT to Olympic National Park, via Colorado.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:46 am
I’m with you. I don’t know how anyone can post anything more than a guess on this one. Granted, many folks are much more educated in their guesses on this type of issue than I. But that does not change the fact that no one (outside of GM’s Volt team) really has enough data to do more than guess at this point.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Volt no make 40 miles with gas or electric. Not True advertising and misleading public put bad face on GM. Obama not true Joker. Joker face belong on GM. Fuzzy math invented at GM. No Einstein needed.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Starting early No Name eh?
Cold under the bridge?
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:49 am
I think you are a little confused. There is no “assist” in the Volt’s scheme. In both cases the regenerative brakes put power to the battery. In the Prius’es case the Electric motor that uses the battery is an assisting motor to the primary gas engine. This is not the case with the Volt. If you are claiming that Prius was some invention of the electric motor or regenerative braking, then I suggest doing some additional research.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Im with Mitch,
I have been hypermiling my Dodge Grand Cherokee some just to see what I could do, and one thing you learn is that the acceleration is what kills your mileage.
With the Volt, All the acceleration is handled by the high efficiency Battery/Motor configuration. This allows the Engine to slowly ramp up to meet the AVERAGE demand.
I think if GM does it right it could be in the 60s. This would mean using the battery alot as a buffer, and recharging it to some minimum SOC to have it available again.
Highway miles at 70 mph will be lower I believe in the 45-50 range.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Sounds like a Dummy Vote.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:52 am
It depends on how well GM markets. If they convince the average Joe that they will get through 75% of their days using NO gas, then the MPG in charge-sustaining mode becomes much less important – even irrelevant. Early adopters can also change public perception by spreading the word.
This is where this web-site could play a huge roll after introduction of the vehicle – by collecting and sharing real-world information regarding electrical miles and amount of fuel used under various conditions. If Lyle can be careful about whose data he lets in (to keep out plants and spoilers) then this site could become a valuable source of information for educating the general public.
Lyle might want to start with the first few thousand on the wait-list for a project of this type. Just a thought. No guilt Lyle if you don’t want to take on another job.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I do not agree. There will be a large number of people,who would still be able to take advantage of the initial 40 or so miles of “discount” with the Volt as opposed to the Prius. That is a very attractive advantage that not other car will have other than a BEV with its own limitations. Volt steel has this “Ace in the hole.”
Volt is the only car where you’l have the advantage of a pure BEV and the ICE. Even with less then great mileage in ICE mode it should not be worse then a comparable sized ICE. If the Volt does have great mileage in ICE mode that is extra plus in my opinion.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Okay folks … This one shouldn’t be that difficult. In charge sustaining mode the Volt will operate (in broad terms) just like any other non-plugin hybrid on the market. The prime mover will be gasoline but there will be a battery in the mix to smooth out the supply and demand battle that the engine/generator and the electric traction motor will be constantly fighting. This simplified explanation is exactly how all hybrids work.
Therefore, if we assume that the engine/generator/traction motor setup is at least as efficient as the PSD arrangement in the Prius, we can expect at least 50 MPG in CS mode. Having personally driven thousands of miles in Honda Civic Hybrids, Priuses and my wife’s Honda Insight, I feel comfortable that in the Volt, MPG averages in the 50s should be no problem. My prediction: the average Volt driver will achieve right at 50 MPG and that most of us here will likely average between 50 and 60.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:54 am
You forget that the Volt will really be competing against the nextgen plug-in Prius not the old 50 MPG Prius of today. The new improved Prius will surely pounce on the Volt something fierce. It might be painful for Volt fans to watch that commercial. woot.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:54 am
I’m with you old man.
I think the optimized engine speeds are going to make for very good (prius besting) on genset mileage. (This is actually pretty important for me, I did 1400km last weekend…)
Before I draw fire I do think Toyota deserves a lot of credit for the rather impressive (if homely) 2010 model.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:55 am
I think to be a viable option to the Prius, the Volt must get close to the Prius’ 50 MPG. Don’t forget, the initial cost of the Prius is almost half that of what the volt is projected to cost.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:56 am
My guess is between 43 and 48 in “standard” mode on both the EPA city/hwy cycles. I still think there will be an “economy” mode that will get higher ratings, hopefully for GM’s sake at least matching the Prius at similar levels of performance.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:56 am
BUT I WILL VOLUNTEER TO DRIVE IT WHEREVER,HOWEVER, AND WHENEVER THEY WANT ME TO.
May sound a bit like begging. IT IS!!
SMILE
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Look for GM to announce something like 80 MPG or similar outrageous number since the EPA doesn’t do “independent testing”. More monkey math from Government Motors. The more I listen to the New GM the more I disbelieve anything that comes out of their pie hole.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:58 am
I feel your pain.
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:59 am
I needed your comedy break!
Thanks!
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August 18th, 2009 at 8:59 am
I think you are a bit pessimistic but I understand your point.
I think the optimised engine speeds will make a huge difference in efficency.
Of course the 230mpg is a bit of a stretch, of course if one were to commute 5 days a week without starting the engine the average gas use is going to be pretty darn good!
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Me wish get they close to Prius PRICE too. But dream me just.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Keith.
40 miles electrical IS a big deal for someone, who need not drive more per daily recharge.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:05 am
My bet is that the Volt could be setup to match the Prius MPG numbers in CS mode, but that GM will not do that in order to gain performance and to avoid operating in a manner that is too “weird”. I still think they’re likely to have an “economy” mode that will get very close to Prius MPG at similar levels of performance.
Have you seen the MPG numbers for Google’s stable of plug-in Prius vehicles? They have serious problems in city driving. The reason is that they need to start the engine quite often to support the power requirements of the drivers and (I’m guessing) to keep the emissions system warm to lower CO and NOx levels, all when there is plenty of energy left in the batteries. The power split design is truly great, probably unbeatable, for a non-plugin, but there are issues for a plugin version.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:06 am
I went online and “built” my own Prius with all of the options I think the VOLT will have… MSRP = $35,644
One of my sales team went to the local Toyota dealer and they told him $5,000 over MSRP and possibly a 24 month wait list for the latest model.
Wait list aside, I’ll take the bigger, quieter, more comfortable VOLT. The price argument doesn’t seem valid to me anymore.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Well GM’s Chevy Cruze (on the same platform as the Volt) which will also use the 1.4L engine with a turbo charger is expected to get close to 40mpg.
The Volt will use the same 1.4L engine but without turbo. It will run in more efficient modes. Will not run through a transmission. But the car will be heavier. So I honestly believe that 50mpg is very possible. Might even be able to exceed that.
GM hasn’t finished the final programming for the charge sustaining mode so they are probably very reluctant to give a number for the FE.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:07 am
I don’t plan using gas that often, so it doesn’t really matter to me. So the few time I’ll use it in charge sustaining mode is not that important for me. If it gets 40 mpg or more, I’ll be more then happy.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:09 am
I heard they were going to paint it with lead paint that will probably chip off and fly in the mouths of babies too.
I do like the option of baby seal leather appointments in the interior, however.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:11 am
You misspelled your own name. your missing the “a” “s” “S” before your last name. You need to replace the “Jack.”
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:13 am
I can’t wait to get my hands on some ChiCom built EV that will surely be better than the Volt.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:14 am
I agree, Dan! ….Lyle, your photoshop of Einstein at the blackboard is a masterpiece!
And Dan, we’d all like to read your paper from the Renewable Energy Roundup next month. How about posting it in the gm-volt.com forum?
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:18 am
I agree. I am sure most people voted without any educated knowledge as opposed to voting with “hoped for mileage”. I know I did. I have no knowledge that would tell me what MPG the Volt will get, but I do know that I would like to see it get at least between 50 and 60 MPG. More than that would always be greatly appreciated by all.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:19 am
To the suddenly appearing trolls here:
The very inexpensive first 40 miles rules!
You only achieve this with a BEV but without the Volt’s flexibility.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Exactly.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:22 am
“GM will never catch the Prius.”
So the Prius suddenly uses no gasoline, has no “monster” four-banger, and apparently farts sunshine instead of nitrogen oxides.
If the carbon saturation theory holds any weight it appears I can also kill you with my Volt.
Dude I am so buying one now!
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:23 am
“Any form of energy can be transformed into another form, but the total energy always remains the same.” Because the ICE has a large amount of energy loss (heat, friction,ETC), compared to an electric motor, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/atv.shtml , is why, as we all know, vehicles will powered by motors.
My question is: How will GM overcome the energy lost coming from the transfer of mechanical energy to electrical energy? We all know the ICE will have to be extremely efficient.
What technology will GM use in the Volt and will they use some of it in the Cruze ?
–an engine that will operate only in it’s sweet spot?
–turbocharge engine?
–HCCI
–regenerative braking
Do you know of any other technologies?
A
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:26 am
You are missing the real point of the Volt. Most of your driving will probably be done while using no gasoline. The Prius cannot touch that and may not be able to come close to it even after Toyota adds a plug to it. I don’t see the comparison to the Prius except that we all seem to recognize the Prius as the most economical vehicle on the mass market today. So what! It is a great vehicle, but it is not a Volt.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Although you are right in reality, the public perception is what is important here.
The on genset gas mileage number is the one that the un-informed public will be looking at. (most people out there)
To make this MORE tricky they are ALREADY programmed to think “Toyota good” and “Chevy bad”…
It HAS to be a good/excellent number or the competition will spin it to sound like the car is a failure.
The 230 mpg number is dangerous because although it should be very possible for most people to achive this there will be a few who will not due to driving habits/patterns and THEY could potentially be very vocal in their dissatisfaction.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Absolutely.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:31 am
As i’ve said in previous posts, the way to get more savings is to be able to charge twice a day. 40 miles AER isn’t as good as 60 or 70.
If you charge while at work, or if you charge at home during the middle of the day before going out for more errands (drop kids off at school, run errands, charge car, pick up kids at school, go to activities etc.).
I assume the battery warranty of 10 years 150,000 miles will allow charging twice a day. Average of 15,000 miles a year is 41 miles a day. Achieving 150,000 miles of AER compared to a car that gets 40 miles per gallon is a savings of 3750 gallons. If the average gas prices over those 10 years (2012-2021) is $5, and the savings per gallon is $4, then you are saving $15,000 on your fuel cost.
I am quite confident gas will be over $5, and I can average well over 50 AER (with a daily recharge).
I would rather have a SUV where 50+ AER would have even greater fuel cost savings when compared to a SUV ICE.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:34 am
With all the sudden negativity here even by some regulars. Whether it achieves all that is claimed or expected, the Volt is the greatest current automobile concept out there. This one time I feel that the mileage guessing game on this site is a disservice to the Volt and not providing any true new insight to the progress of this car. An awful lot of “energy” is wasted on the guessing game.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Am I correct in thinking that once the ICE kicks in in charge sustaining mode that the Volt’s range is unlimited so long as you stop to get more gasoline?
If so, this means that the electricity that the generator creates will always equal or exceed the demands of the car? How can they anticipate that with any precision?
This is an issue that GM has not been sufficiently clear about. A lot of people think that the “range extender” extends range to only the 300-mile mark and that after that you have to stop for several hours to charge the battery. This precludes long trips.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Perhaps, but it WAS requested by somebody here a while back.
Actually I think it’s pretty interesting to see the results from this fairly well informed group.
There is a divide in opinion about the genset mode, some of us think they are keeping an ace up their sleeve and others are a bit more pessimistic about what is going on.
Interesting stuff Lyle!
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:36 am
I don’t know what the milage will be, I don’t think GM knows yet. The milage is very dependant on the software that controles the genset and that is still being worked on. The volt design has several advantages over the Prius but it also weighs 500 pounds more. Little wonder that GM is still scratching their heads on what the best balance is. I have to agree with those of you that suggested multiple modes that the driver can choose from. One of these modes could maximise the milage for PR sake though it may seldom be used in practice.
I wish people would quit saying that a Prius is half the cost of a Volt. This is simply not true – just ask anyone who has bought a real Prius. After the tax rebate the costs are not that far apart given a real world Prius.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:37 am
He DOES have a point… were I in Toyota’s marketing team that’s how I’d approach it.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:38 am
BillG
You want to bet that they will not do that. You must not have read many of the posts on this website supporting their 230 mpg announcement under the appropriate conditions.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:40 am
An excellent explanation of why GM MUST deliver >Prius MPGs in the CS mode!
PS: My post at 8:11 above wrongly refers to the CD mode. To restate it corrrectly, “….include both CITY & HWY figures for the Volt in CS mode”.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:42 am
If the electric transmission loss is kept reasonable 10-15% volt should get extremely good MPG in CSM. In essence it will be better then hypermiling Fusion hybrid (60-70 MPG). If they tune this thing right and make ICE turn off when it is not absolutely needed they should be able to get close to 100 mpg in city with defensive driving and 60-70 mpg highway at 50 mph and possibly 50-60 mpg at 75 mph. The bigest unknown now it the transmission loss but I can not imagine it to be much worse then mechanical transmission loss if anything it sould be much better.
My bets
1. City defensive driving 100 MPG
2. City regular driving 70 mpg
3. Highway 50 MPH – 70 mpg
4. Highway 75 MPH – 55 mpg
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Moo Cow…
PLEASE take an english course.
At least then your trolling wouldn’t be ‘quite’ as painful.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:49 am
I thought you had that backwards, but did not want to point it out. Thanks for doing the correction yourself. You are a “stand up” gentleman.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:50 am
“Itsgonna get ugly for the Volt really fast..”
Seeing as you are talking about the Prius..I assume that the “it” in the sentence is referencing the Prius…Are you are confirming that the Prius will get uglier…wow..now THAT is an engineering challenge…
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Actually there is an “assist” in the Volt’s scheme. They have told us repeatedly that while in battery depleted mode the ICE will supply the power needed to drive the car, but the battery will also be tapped to assist in high power driving situations, like passing, climbing hills and accelerating from a stop. This is a key puzzle piece in understanding how it is that in charge sustaining mode, the Volt will still get around 50 mpg. As anybody who drives a Prius will tell you, your gas mileage is the worst during starting from a stop, climbing hills and passing other cars. These are exactly the times when the Volt’s ICE will get an “assist” from it’s sizable battery.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:51 am
I hope it is high or I think the Volt will have a hard time selling against othe high MPG rated hybrids. When you think of the MPG on a per tank basis, you will basically be getting whatever the generator mode MPG is, plus 1 “free gallon” for the 40 mile electric mode. If generator mode MPG is low, that will be negligible. So if the gen mode MPG was 40, you would get around 45MPG per tank. Not enough to justify the price tag.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:52 am
I agree! Thanks Lyle for the chuckle.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Many of the comments here are way off base.
First of all the ICE in the Volt does not have to move 3520 lbs; it is only driving a generator that doesn’t weigh anywhere near the whole vehicle. it’s the electric motor that drives the vehicle not the ICE. GM engineers have designed newer internal combustion engines that get much better gas mileage and pollute far less. The ICE will be very efficient driving that “little” generator.
Second. the ICE wont be used that much unless you travel greater distances than 40 miles. Depending upon distance traveled, the ICE will not be subject to the ware and tear of your usual ICE vehicle. Drivers will find that they will be able to charge their EV,s along the way on trips; charge stations are already being designed and built to provide the EV user with opportunity to charge their battery while stopping at restaurants or just parking on the street. Municipalities are considering and in some cases have already built them in specified areas of the city.
Obviously, those making trash talk about how the Volt will never catch the Prius”, etc. are in for a rude awakening! And Lazp, you are right – “The first 40 miles rules”!
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Beating the Prius will absolutely NOT happen, as I have explained in the forums. The ICE-Transmission-Wheels drivetrain is more efficient than the ICE-Genset-Controller-Electric motor-Wheels drivetrain for steady highway driving.
Second, how about we get more scientific and get a graph of miles per hour of steady driving vs. miles per gallon? There can be several runs performed and the results can then be averaged and plotted. This way it can be compared to different hybrid drivetrains.
My prediction is that when driving at 70 mph the Volt will get 30 mpg or less and at least 5 mpg less than what the Prius gets.
Does anyone else want to put down their specific predictions? Like an office pool?
Finally, I have to say that I still think the Voltec drivetrain is excellent and has many advantages, just like an electric-diesel locomotive and a mining truck. I think that even though the Volt will not get great pure highway mileage that the typical use of the Volt will prove to be amazing. Most people that buy the Volt will have much more city driving and a reasonable distance to work. Some may only use a few tanks of gas a year!
We need to be realistic and each new potential Volt owner should take the time to evaluate what their driving patterns are to see how much the Volt will save them. For me, I just about get off of gasoline. What about you?
So, feel free to pile on the negatives. I have my reasons why I’m predicting low mpg at high speed, steady highway driving. What are your reasons for thinking they will be so much higher than the simple and most used drivetrain?
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Tom:
No. you can driver as long as you want but your mileage will revert to the value of what you get from the ICE. The 40 initial electric mileage since charging will factor in your total miles driven at whatever mileage you will be getting (50mpg?) Essentially you are driving an ICE.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:57 am
To my understanding the gen. will kick in at 30% voltage remaining in battery pack , And will run at a RPM range that was been tuned for Max GPH (Gallons per hour) , So how far you drive does not matter .. What I am trying to say is this car should get a rating like a air plane Gallons per Hour ,, not gallons per mile . If the engine rpm’s stays the same and the engine burns 1 gallon a hour then if you are on the highway traveling at 75 mph then your gas mph would be 75MPH , but if you are slugging around the city and only go 35 miles then you would have a mph of 35 ( of course this engine would shut down in stop and go traffic so you would need to be watching the hours of operation that the engine is actuelly running).
Just food for thought…..
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:58 am
I’ll be pleasantly surprised if they get over 50 MPG with the engine they’re using. They can only optimize the current engine so far; because they either didn’t want to take the time or the money for the first gen for a specialized engine. Hopefully in the second get they will go with their original plan of using a specialized 1 liter turbocharged engine. Designed around the particular needs and capabilities offered to them with the series hybrid.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:58 am
I’d really like to see 50+ miles/gal but really, how is GM going to pull it off?
Probably I think closer to low 40’s because….
The Prius’ ICE energy is transmitted via a direct mechanical connection to the drive train = minimal losses.
The Volts ICE energy has to go through a generator and electronics and then to the electric motor – all those stages unfortunately mean around 15 to 20% losses.
The Volt has around 500 extra pounds in weight to carry around compared to the Prius
On the plus side:
The Volt has some fixed rpm bands, which may be a little more efficiently tuneable than the Prius.
The Volts battery will also be able absorb all the regenerative braking energy available.
The Prius only has a small battery and can and does top that battery out on occasion e.g. when going down a mountain. When this happens the regen. is disabled and all braking energy is wasted via the conventional friction brakes or by using the engine brake (the “B” setting on the shifter). The Volt would be a big winner in this instance.
The only way I can think of that the Volt can really make up ground on the Prius is if its aerodynamics are way better, but I am a little doubtful that this is the case.
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August 18th, 2009 at 9:59 am
I believe the saying is along the lines of “Idle hands are the devil’s work”…
In the absence of actual news people will make their own.
An on genset test drive review by Lyle would go a long way toward calming concerns I bet.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:00 am
I have to agree as well.
These numbers – 40 mile AER and 50 MPG have been tossed around for almost three years, and are pretty much set in concrete.
They have to make those targets, and in the real world, not some rigged test with a 50 pound driver, and a 200 mph tailwind…..
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Jake’ll get him.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:03 am
I agree.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:04 am
All indications are that the genset will make sufficent power to run the car as long as you feed it fuel.
The genset only needs to make the average power required of course, it can dip into the battery for uphill bits and can regen on downhill bits. The genset can generate more power than required on a flat road so it can drive the car and charge the battery at the same time.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I think if it gets 40-50 mpg in a realistic setting that should be good enough. Obiously, 50 or better would be fantastic. I can’t see it getting over 50 mpg in city driving though. But I just want to re-iterate that unless you are an NYC taxi driver you shouldn’t need more than 30 or so all-electric miles per day anyway. If you do then that is a lot of city driving.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Generator mode MPG doesn’t have to beat the Prius; it just has to come close. The Ford Fusion Hybrid doesn’t beat the Prius in MPG, but refinement and size still make it a hot seller and a critical favorite.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:06 am
nasaman:
I think you put too much emphasis on the Volt – Prius comparison.
If anything, GM/Chevy needs to differentiate those two models as much as possible.
GM advertising:
We have an electric car with a 40 mile range using the batteries and a gasoline engine backup to extend that range as needed.
They don’t…..
JMHO
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:06 am
With your betting pool can I also specify how far I am driving between charges? 40,50,60,70,100 miles between charges vs. any car other than a BEV. I am arguing that even with a less than great ICE mileage one can have a great overall mileage car depending on ones driving requirement. Yes some people will be perfectly be happy with a BEV alone with its limitations.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:07 am
FUD. Watch out for Jake.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:12 am
It sounds to me like Toyota is using the same FUD consultants as BIG INSURANCE and BIG PHARMA. It doesen’t have to be true, as long as you yell it long enough and loud enough.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:13 am
It will all depend on what test is used. If it’s nice and slow with lot’s of stops and starts and includes the 40 miles of battery charge and the length of the test is not that long than it could do it.
If it’s flat out at 70 mph and the clock starts AFTER the electric charge is depleted then no, it won’t make it.
However, as I explained above, it won’t matter for most drivers as the typical mpg will be amazing. If any of you have long commutes to work and will be driving at 85 mph then just forget the Volt and buy a good, aerodynamic diesel car. Oh, you might also want to consider moving closer to work because the cheap fossil fuel era is just about over.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Everyone needs to specify the average speeds on the hwy.. the epa hwy cycle averages 48mph.. long distance hwy driving often averages 65mph even when you do 70mph.
5mph makes a huge difference in mpg at hwy speeds.
My guess?.. 50mpg at average speeds of 60mph
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:17 am
40+ MPG Highway
50+ MPG City
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:18 am
______________________________________________________
Lyle Asks:
“What will the series hybrid mode fuel economy be? And how important is that number to us?”
——–
My guess…
Sticker:
MPC (Miles Per Charge) City: 43
MPC (Miles Per Charge) Hwy: 39
ER-MPG (Extended Range MPG) City: 41
ER-MPG (Extended Range MPG) Hwy: 37
My ER-MPG numbers are lower than what my EREV Volvo/TATA friend predicts…he predicts ~49City, ~45Hwy. He is an engineer I’m not…but it’s just hard for me to believe the Volt can get a combined high 40s…it would be a sensational achievement for GM if they were somehow able to squeeze out those high ~40s numbers.
A masterful Graphic Lyle!…
That graphic is outstanding on so many nuanced levels both in meaning and graphic detail ( I just noticed the Voltec MPG related chalk math above the “Chevy Volt = 230MPG”.) You just raised the bar big-time…how will you ever out do that graphic? Please consider puting a link to a larger photo below the photo.
______________________________________________________
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Thank you for making an apples to apples comparison. I was really getting tired of the comparisons of the most stripped down econo model to the Volt.
Sure you may not need all of the features the Volt is offering but it’s still only far to compare it to another care that has equal features.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Texas, I value your opinion but think that the optimised engine speed possible in the Volt will turn around your arguement.
Even in my conventional AWD 2002 Subaru Impreza TS wagon 5 speed driving at an optimal speed returns really incredible gas mileage.
My best number was 12 litres used to cover 300km.
I’m not a hypermiler, heavy but steady traffic forced a very steady 80 kph for that drive. I was quite shocked at the result.
(At speed the car is normally closer to 20 litres for that drive.)
The Impreza is an excellent car, but has never been particularly good on fuel. The obviously pretty optimial engine speed made a truly dramatic difference in economy.
I think this will be the norm for the Volt.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:22 am
On a per tank basis – I will recharge that battery more than once. Given the the typical consummer drive cycle you are likely to recharge the battery 32 times before using up the gas in the tank.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Agreed…see my post 12
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Add Me To The T-Shirt List!!!!
But you should add Bob Lutz’s picture as well – maybe with an eraser in his hand to “correct” the math!!!!
HAHAHAHAHA!
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:26 am
And it is fun to stick your neck out and know there is no price other than pride to be paid.
I also enjoy the trools that would rather eat dog droppings and call them brownies than to say anything good about the Volt.
Some seem to think my old buick will do as well on the open road as the Volt will in CS mode.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:27 am
I wonder if GM asked Lyle to get a feel for what we think or want…..
It could happen…..
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:28 am
______________________________________________________
Does the Ajax Edit Comments Tool have a bug w/ Internet Explorer 8?
Lyle, FYI…since I upgraded to Internet Explorer 8, I noticed that the text box in the Ajax Edit Comments Tool keeps automatically scrolling up therefore making it almost impossible to edit any text below a first sentence.
______________________________________________________
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:30 am
I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:31 am
(click to show comment)
August 18th, 2009 at 10:32 am
How much over MSRP on the Volt are you guys going to do? How long do you think the wait for a Volt will be? It could look worse than what’s happening over at Toyota. IMO, mark ups and long waits could kill the Volt’s much needed early momentum. GM needs to be ready to build them to match demand and get them to people at MSRP if they hope to have the Volt be a game changer instead of just a limited run exotic novelty like the SSR was.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Definitely a compromised engine choice. Remember that Maximum Bob never wanted that engine in the first place. The Volt was supposed to be GM’s response to the Tesla Roadster and NOT the mighty Toyota Prius.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:34 am
It won’t happen all the time.
I have IE 8 and it has happened to me just a few times.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:35 am
It seems to me the only thing that matters is the definition of the fuel mileage test and what will be printed on the car’s sticker.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:37 am
GM can do a heavily advertised contest “How Many Gallons of GAS Did My Volt Use This Summer”.. the actual numbers can be verified with a computer readout at a dealership.. the first 230 winning contestants get $10k and get their faces plastered all over a tv ad.
That contest would be huge publicity..
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:39 am
jeff j,
I believe that the ICE will turn off when you are at a stop sign or traffic light so that you wont be wasting gasoline. Besides that the greatest fact about EV is the efficient use of energy. When any of the above stated conditions exist or when at a standstill in a traffic jam, no electrical energy is being used. If we shut the ICE down at these times, no gasoline is used either.
Little has been said in these posts about regen. The way this works is really neat. When the electric motor is turning using the batteries energy, or that created by the generator, a magnetic field builds within the motor. Whenever, you slow down, or come to a stop, that electric field calapses. This causes a reverse flow of current within the circuitry. Electric components redirect this flow in the proper direction to recharge the batteries. In this way, electrical energy is recaptured.
These a few of the ways electric drive is superior to the ICE.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Drop your racist hate and step away from your pewter for the benefit of mankind. You will be reported to the proper authorities.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Maybe 40 MPG if they be lucky. The Volt is very HEAVY for its small size. Add 4 hefty Americans (i believe most Americans are obese from latest medical studies), crank up the A/C and add a little head wind and get on your knees and pray for 30 MPG.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:50 am
I think this car is of such importance to GM that they will not allow price gouging. How do you stop it? Simple, GM starts a web site showing all the dealers who are not gouging and incourage customers to go there.
Delivery becomes a long wait.—-I HOPE SO!! That would mean the Volt is a run away winner and the price will come down sooner rather than later
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:53 am
The Toyota Prius is SMOKIN’ HOT right now. We can’t keep’em in stock. Toyota Dealers welcome all Obama stimulus dollars. Yeah Baby. I am looking at my biggest bonus this year at my dealership. We also sell the white hot Corolla for those non-hybrid types that got Clunker Cash.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Now THAT’s positive!
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Are you kidding? You must have missed the post here where Mr. Lutz wants to sell the first batch of VOLTs on eBay. He wants to cut the dealers out of the equation, at least for the first batch, as an ‘experiment’.
I can’t wait to read the CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) reports from eBay. Many believe GM is “too big to fail”… I believe eBay is “too big to give a rat’s A$$ about Customer Satisfaction”. THEY will not be the ones the customer returns to for any reason in the future, so they have NOTHING to lose. And don’t forget… early bidders on VOLT may end up paying FAR MORE than what a dealer would do.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:55 am
You got it, but Bruce B’s thoughts are what GM’s marketing is up against.
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Try the first 100 miles dude. The LEAF rocks !!!
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August 18th, 2009 at 10:57 am
The on genset gas mileage number is the one that the un-informed public will be looking at. (most people out there)
I’m a little confused why you or nasaman think the Prius comparison would be an issue. My impression is that no one will ever see the CS MPG number.
From what I’ve read the sticker will display separate kwh/100 mile numbers and separate MPG numbers. The important bit is that my impression is that the MPG numbers are derived using the PHEV methodology previously discussed, which credits the PHEV with the EV range when calculating MPG. Using this technology the City number for the Volt will be the 230 MPG number previously released, and GM has said the MPG number for Highway and Combined will both be in triple digits.
So I’m thinking any comparison of MPG will be, as it should, very favorable to the Volt. The Prius has MPG numbers of about 50 MPG in all modes. So it seems like the Volt’s MPG numbers will at least double the Prius’. Are you suggesting that in addition to the MPG using the PHEV technology there will also be MPGs for CS mode? I haven’t seen that anywhere but I’m hardly an expert. Have I missed something here?
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:01 am
That’s a cool idea!
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:03 am
It simply does not matter as long as it is not an aberration. The key point is the zero consumption for the first 40 miles. This is what will sell the Volt. Let’s be honest here; a person that can afford a car in the 30K-40K range can easily afford to pay for the gas.
The car will attract buyers, at least initially, on two main points in my view. First because it offers a totally unique and cool drive train technology that falls squarely in the environmental mindset. Second, because it (hopefully) offers a very refined driving experience. GM has no margin for error on the last one – the perception of quality/feel of the Volt will be critical for its success.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:03 am
I thought he was Grover from Sesame Street. Or Yoda with a bad hangover.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:03 am
I wontl be able to charge every night. Maybe every 3 nights I could take on a charge. I have a weird schedule and I’m in different places some nights. So the per tank estimate is closer for me.
Also if you were on a trip or vacation with the car, you might not charge for a week. So these MPG scenarios are important.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:07 am
The Leaf rocks? Thats the shaking of the driver who tried to actually go 100 miles
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Wait till the next election cycle when that subject comes up. Say it again: How many billions of dollars with that stupid program did he send OUT of the U.S. Economy by giving it to foreign automakers?!!
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:11 am
It is really hard to say. We don’t have all the facts to make a judgment and there is nothing to compare with the Volt. The Prius is a different technology.
Given the last topic, it appears GM is pulling out all the stops to get it right. I think we are in for a very nice surprise — 50+ MPG is CS mode, perhaps even 60 – 70 MPG.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Who cares? If you believe the GM banner, it’s apparently 23 mpg, as the smiling outlet clearly states.
If it’s 100% electric drive, such as the Volt is, with its built in strong acceleration, smooth and quiet peformance, expect:
Around 25 kWh / 100 miles (ca. 100 mpge) for the EPA window sticker. That’s the main thing consumers will see, if they even care.
Example: 2009 mini E EPA window sticker rated at 33 / 36 city / hwy kWh / 100 miles (102 / 94 city / hwy mpge).
http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/6559
mid 200s or higher for CAFE MPG, which is for automaker credits, not consumer information.
Example: 2008 Tesla Roadster CAFE rated at 244.0 MPG.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/07/corporate-average-fuel-economy-figure-for-tesla-motors-2440-miles-per-gallon.html
while in full EV mode.
If you want the most clarity on an EREVs efficiency as well as maximum efficiency, just use the extended mode as little as possible.
Also, what’s a plug in Prius, which is not 100% electric drive as currently configured, unlike the vehicles listed above, got to do with anything? That’s comparing apples and oranges.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Thanks for the helpful insight.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:17 am
The power out of that “little” generator must be able to drive the car. That means it must put out enough power to drive the car and it must be cranked with even more power since the conversion from mechanical to electrical energy has some losses (ie: not 100% of energy is converted).
Therefore, turning that little generator to make the car run down the highway after the battery is down will require more power from the engine than simply driving the wheels from the ICE directly.
You cannot get something for nothing.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:17 am
“If so, this means that the electricity that the generator creates will always equal or exceed the demands of the car? How can they anticipate that with any precision?”
They can measure with extreme precision what all the components are making or consuming.. they do an average for the last few minutes and crank up the genset accordingly.. they also monitor battery state and adjust the charge level. The genset can take minutes to respond, very gentle.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:17 am
DonC,
What Nasaman and I are talking about is how the competition is going to spin the numbers.
Here on gm-volt.com we KNOW that the genset efficency is not as important as the AER, but the general public likely don’t.
SO… IF the Volt’s genset were to return say 37 mpg for arguments sake I STILL would get fantastic average mileage in the city since I will rarely exceed the AER during the week. IF you were Toyota’s marketing people you would tell the world that the Volt ONLY gets 37 mpg and that you are MUCH better off getting a Prius…
For this simple point alone the genset mileage absolutely needs to be 50 mpg. Even though in reality it won’t make much difference to most drivers most of the time.
I voted 50-60mpg in the poll.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Interpolating respected engine performance from the Smart Car and its .7 L turbocharged 3-cylinder engine – with all peripheral loading; roadway variations, power brakes and steering dash electronics and HVC – 40 mpg must be an absolute minimum. And ensure not being overrun (pun) by competition. I’m in the 17% that voted 30-40 mpg. Imagine a 27.57 gal. tank means a true 1000 miles between fill-ups and if necessary between charges.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:18 am
You are correct. In fact, the site: http://www.camaro5.com did that very same thing about dealers gouging on 2010 Camaros. One reason why I’ve been ordering them for customers at MSRP (v6’s only).
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Your point is a good one but $35.6K seems on the high side. Not everyone wants every option available, especially on a commuter car. I’d suggest the comparison is more like $28.5K Prius versus a $43K Volt. If you add the above MSRP premium to the price of the Prius you still get to $33.5K, which means that with the MSRP premium the prices are about the same. But keep in mind that a few years from now, when the Volt is being produced in numbers, the backlog for Prius orders will be gone and you won’t be adding that $5K to the Prius’ MSRP. (The 24 month wait seems extreme).
Having said that, comparisons using a Prius prices at $21K are silly. That basic $21K version of the Prius just represents a nervous reaction of Toyota to the Insight. The model has not even been released yet, and when released it will only be for fleet sales. You’re not going to see it in a Toyota showroom.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:21 am
The cruze may get 40 MPG highway there is no way it will get combined 40MPG I stake my life on it.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Texas,
Two quick points, The ICE-Transmission-Wheels drivetrain is more efficient than the ICE-Genset-Controller-Electric motor-Wheels drivetrain for steady highway driving.
1) Does that mean the electric assist of the Prius has no controller to induce losses, 2) Transmissions induce losses, the Prius transmission is efficient, but the Volt doesn’t have one.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Off topic but way cool.
The Leaf will let you control charging with your iPhone. Also the car may have an open source API for 3rd party developers to make apps for it. Do this GM!
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/08/controlling-electric-cars-nissan-leaf-with-apple-iphone.php
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Texas,
Two quick points, “The ICE-Transmission-Wheels drivetrain is more efficient than the ICE-Genset-Controller-Electric motor-Wheels drivetrain for steady highway driving.”
1) Does that mean the electric assist of the Prius has no controller which would induce losses, 2) Transmissions induce losses, the Prius transmission is efficient, but the Volt doesn’t have one.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Yes, that’s what I posted as well. I think people just read my first sentence, hit the negative button and move on. lol. That’s cool.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Engineering issues and arguments aside, I’d say that when Tony Posawatz says “that was just the concept,” you have a pretty good idea that we’re not going to see 50 MPG during CS operation. If we were looking at a higher number I’d think the response would be more like “that was what the model projected but you always like to improve on the model.” The tone from both Posawatz and Weber seem to be telegraphing a lower number than some might be expecting or hoping for.
Personally the number isn’t of any importance to me, and I doubt that it will matter much to the general public. They’re going to focus more on the City/Highway/Combined MPG numbers. (I don’t think they’ll care about the kWh/100 mile number because a kWh is so cheap relative to what the price of gas).
//OT: I’ll second/third/fourth the compliments about Lyle’s graph. That is one very clever and funny Photoshop job.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:29 am
I don’t know about you but I drive for hours with the cruise control set at around 70 mph. I don’t drop below 65 mph unless there’s an emergency. Am I alone here? Then again, I don’t travel long distances that much. So, the Volt is perfect for my daily driving.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:32 am
A lot of us stopped using ebay a long time ago.
Even if I WERE in California I wouldn’t go there.
If the dealers don’t rip off the customers (charge MSRP) and actually perform with actual customer service (call when there is a delay and let the client know what is happening, silence is unaccepable) I will be a happy guy.
This is a wide spread industry problem not a GM specific one.
Car dealers usually make the customer feel like they have been ripped off. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I haven’t come across one in a while.
In my experience Subaru, Land Rover, BMW, Chevrolet, Chrysler, and Ford Dealers have been this way.
I don’t like Honda or Toyota so haven’t entered their dealerships to find out.
(No wonder I run my cars for a long time…)
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Muddy,
While I agree with all of you (including Nasaman and DonC) I believe the genset MPG needs to be much greater than 50 because Toyota will be coming out with a plug-in Prius soon after (if not before) the Volt is introduced. I assume the plug-in Prius will be rated at much higher MPG numbers than the non-plug-in version on sale at present. Toyota will still be in a good PR position to battle for the minds of those who will not bother to actually use their brains to check things out for themselves. That lack of brain usage is partly to blame for Toyota, Honda and the rest to have gained such a sales position versus our on auto companies. People will always take the easy way out and let others do their thinking for them – at least the majority of people will. I am sorry to have to say such a thing, but sometimes the truth has to be said. IMO.
Edited: I did not intend to not credit Toyota, Honda and the rest for making superior autos for the past several decades. That certainly helped make it a “no-brainer”.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Is the CVT + power split actually considered a transmission.
Lyle,
…Help! Slow connection. Sorry for multiple posts, functions aren’t working in the browser due to connection.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Alex…..The transmission you are referring to is called “motor speed controller”…and as you know, with no mechanical involved. Very little power is lost with such a device. GM will most likely use a AC/3phase motor rated at 360 volts. Such a motor is ideal for cost and efficiency. By using a “speed controller” that controls hertz rather than voltage gives it instant torque starting from 0 rpm versus controlling the voltage. This setup gives it a big plus over the efficiency of a mechanical/hydraulic transmission.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:38 am
You are very likely correct, but those are stakes that one should not just throw out carelessly. You could come up short one day and the winner may just want to collect.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Does that mean a driver needs to drive in the exact ICE sweet-spot? What if they want to drive at 75 mph instead of 60 mph (or whatever the optimal speed for the ICE is)? You see, you can’t just keep the ICE at the optimal load when the load changes.
There will be some voodoo magic using the computers but the fact is that the power output of the generator is going to need to match the power demands of the vehicle at whatever speed the driver wants to cruise at. That is why I ask for a graph of mpg vs. mph for long distances (after the battery is depleted).
I bet the resulting graph is going to be very surprising to many posters here. Let’s put up three lines, one for the Volt, one for the 2009 Prius (same size ICE) and one for the 2010 Prius (bigger ICE). Are posters up for the challenge or do I just get more negatives? The test seems fair to me.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:39 am
MRR says “I think the optimised engine speeds will make a huge difference in efficency.”
———————————-
That used to be a greater plus in my mind than it is now. The goal now seems to have shifted to being (or at least sounding) just like a “normal” car. I understand why, but one cannot optimize everything at the same time.
Incidentally, I don’t think of 32 mpg as pessimistic because it is more than most cars now achieve. The Volts main focus is not on high-mileage ICE performance, an important but still secondary mode of operation. It will be a considerable achievement if gm reaches 32 combined in CS mode in a vehicle that has so many design aspects controlled by what’s needed for the all-electric miles.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:40 am
I think you’re on absolutely the right track here (though I’m sure you meant 230 MPG rather than 23 MPG in the banner). GM is going to be pushing the 230 MPG number — and perhaps the triple digit Highway and Combined MPG numbers — and the MPG in CS mode will be buried and/or lost in the shuffle.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:40 am
It will be very easy to calculate the CS mode MPG when I get my Volt and drive it from NJ to FL.
I’ll fill up the tank and note how many gallons went in, in case GM doesn’t tell me the size of the tank.
After my first 40 miles or when I see the RPMs start to register, I’ll put the Volt on cruise control at 60 mph. When I go through half a tank, I’ll have a good idea of what the MPG is based on the distance I traveled in CS mode. Of course that will be highway mpg but that’s what I feel matters most for the Volt.
NPNS!
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Yes, I agree, as I have posted. Voltec is going to be amazing for most drivers.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Although if these ‘other’ places are fairly consistant you can likely arrange plug availability right?
If you cannot then maybe there IS a better scenario for you, the Buick CUV maybe or a nice Cruise might be better.
Maybe even the Prius might work out better if you cannot regularly plug in.
You DO have to think this through, the value of the Volt IS the plug in.
On vacation I can plug in at the in-laws place without issue but public charging stations do not exist in my area as yet.
Having said all this I still bet for the 50-60 mpg range while on genset.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Let’s face it Hybrids are just what they are Hybrids. The Volt is a pure electric, with a generator.
The Gen one volt is just the beginning. GM could in theory shut down two of the cylinders in the 4 cylinder ICE. Why not? They do it on the V8. It might operate a bit rough but with a balance shaft they could in theory safe fuel. Generate less heat loss.
The word hybrid to me is low tech or an intermediate technology. It’s a mix of technology.
I am an engineer and know that the general public has been bamboozled by Toyota advertising to think hybrids are hi-tech. When in reality they are not at all.
In 1960 when tube technology was not up to snuff with transistor they had Hybrid TV sets.
Where you had half Tubes half Transistors.
Now TV sets are full solid state.
No matter how Toyota spins the new prius its simply an intermediate technology.
GM needs to educate the public on how much more efficient an electric motor is.
Old commercials of the past used to educate owners and we need to get back to basic theory.
With the ability of using high efficiently gas turbines and other sources to charge the battery GM has a platform for the future.
With a high efficiently turbine in GEN2 volt it could have the ability to really make a difference. GM needs to form a contract with GE turbines.
GM also needs to look at using the heat from the ICE engine in cold months to heat the interior and to use heat pump theory when the AC load becomes strong.
Just my ideas!!
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:42 am
If it’s lower than the Prius then they’re hosed. For those driving longer distances, the cost of the Volt is a turn off compared to a $23,000 base Prius. Which car really saves you on gas on an all petrol run? Set AER aside the Volt Loses.
GM better get those numbers up.
Sure AER is the attractive part but let’s say you range anxiety mongors forget to plug in more times than you should. You’re basically driving a less efficient on ICE vehicle than a base model Prius tha get ovr 50MPG (per john101010101….sorry bro, I cant remember your tag).
I can see people being lazy to plug in and just use it for the Genset mode gettin inferior milage.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:42 am
You are a busy little troll today…
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:45 am
We “know” from the 230 discussion that the Volt uses 25KWh per 100 miles in the tested city cycle and that the highway efficiency should be lower (30-35 KWh per 100 miles?). What we need to know is the efficiency of the generator. How many KWh per gallon will the Volt’s ICE/Generator provide? That gives you KWh per gallon and it is an easy calculation to get effective MPG for the Volt.
The generator efficiency should only vary with the set point GM decides to use as the generator is not directly pushing the Volt. If the optimal set point is at high RMP and high electic generation, then GM should run the generator at this single optimal set point to get maximum KWh per gallon. Sure, they could gradually ramp up to the optimal RPM to avoid harsh transitions, but that won’t impact efficiency much. If this setting generates more power than needed, the excess can charge up the battery a little bit before shutting down the ICE and reverting to full EV mode for a couple of miles. The need for multiple set points arises when the optimal set point is at low RMP and low electical generation. In this case, they will have to run at non-optimal set points when the power requirements are above the amount generated at the low RPM/low power set point. I think this is what GM is grappling with. Their choice of ICE/Generator was apparently made based on availability and cost as opposed to otimizing power generation efficiency. Hopeully, they will rectify this in Gen II Volts.
All that being said, when can I get me one of these Volts!
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:45 am
This topic has spurred quite a discussion. More negative than I would have imagined. Why is that?
Why is it that the fuel mileage in CS mode is this important? I just don’t get it. The only time we would even care is if we have already driven out our battery range. It would also have to be by a significant amount to have a real impact on the overall “trip mpg”.
How many people will do this on a routine basis? 5%?
If you do drive 100 + miles daily, and can’t intermittently charge during the day, the Volt maybe is not for you. Period.
For the other 95% of the public, this discussion is simply irrelevant. If GM has to concede 5% to the turbo deisels and the Prii, they should.
In fact, to avoid having to explain this to stupid people who don’t understand the Volt’s advantages, find this info out up front and then SHOW them where to buy what they need. After all, the Volt’s “overall mpg” will be astronomical for the other 95%. They don’t need to expend extra cost and energy making the case to the 5% daily extra long mileage drivers, who would only end up angry anyway and likely feel they were “snookered”. And obviously make a big fuss about it – and give GM an undeserved black eye in the media.
Afterall, people/media look for any way possible to paint GM in a bad light. Why should GM serve them up on a platter? If you drive more than 100 miles a day and can not intermittently charge during the day, GM should not even let you buy a Volt.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:45 am
I put all of my calculations in the forum section. If you challenge the values, feel free to put up your estimations there so we can hammer out the details.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:46 am
The champ of what ??
Ugly design? dullness? Boredom?
That was comical……..
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:47 am
If you can run a normally aspirated engine at it’s sweet spot most of the time, a turbocharged engine will not do any better. Plus the fact that GM has already said such an engine would weight as much, because of it’s additional associated components.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:48 am
#17 Lee –> I hope what you say turns out to be the case, but I doubt it. The Prius is a wonderful design, and HSD is a wonderful way of combining gas and electric. The Volt also has a wonderful design and a major part of that is the AER. When one excludes the all-electric portion of the Volt’s design, the remainder, considered alone, is likely to be still very good but much closer to present vehicles.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:48 am
The Volt will handily beat the MPG numbers of the plug-in Prius because the Prius will still be using the ICE during the City and Highway cycles. You can see that in some of the papers which have published findings about the MPG for the Hymotion plug-in Prius.
This is actually what the methodology for PHEVs was designed to do — compare different PHEVs. I think it does a great job of that. Where the methodology gets weird is when you compare the MPG numbers you get from it with the MPG numbers for conventional ICE vehicles or standard (not plug-in) hybrids. That’s something of an apples and oranges comparison.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Absolutely!
I strongly believe Frank and team have a gas mileage ace up their sleeve that they are waiting to play closer to rollout.
I think that 50+ mpg is well in hand.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:48 am
If they can convince people that they will hardly ever use gas, they might just go down the street to buy a Nissan LEAF. Sure they can’t go on road trips, but someone with a $40,000 Volt probably has a second car anyway for road trips.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Not to worry brother. I’m not buying any cars on ebay. No way, no time, no how.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:53 am
39 MPG.
Okay, i just pulled that number out of my stinky butt however it should be as good a guesstimate as any of you smarty pants can make.
Take me to your house.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:54 am
CDAVIS,
Your post just clarifies the situation GM is in with this car. Assume the sticker does say exactly what you posted. Numbers ranging from high 30’s to high 40’s. Then walk over to a Prius and see a sticker that has two numbers, 50 and 50 (or whatever they are).
I don’t think the public is smart enough to realize what they are looking at. Where is the visual advantage for the Voltec?
How does this show the Volt gets better “fuel mileage” than the Prius? This is marketing 101.
For all the negativity generated days ago, the 230 MPG number (or something similar) is what needs to be on the window somewhere.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:54 am
But the argument has always been “Range Anxiety” and ho the Volt relieves that.
“How many people will do this on a routine basis? 5%?”
If the volt can’t deliver to this promis then it shouldn’t be advertised and boasted that it can.
“Why is it that the fuel mileage in CS mode is this important? I just don’t get it.”
Because there is the rest of the 20% that travel more than the 80% that don’t. Also many will use it it as their primary vehicle for commute and/or long vacation trips. If the Volt can’t deliver this then Why advertise and boast about it?
“For the other 95% of the public, this discussion is simply irrelevant. If GM has to concede 5% to the turbo deisels and the Prii, they should.”
I understood the design was for the 80% of the market that did not drive over 40miles on a per day bassis. This leaves 20% not 5%. Hence the range extender.
“They don’t need to expend extra cost and energy making the case to the 5%”
lol….
That’s the 5% that can pool together for a class action lawsuit claiming GM misinformed or advertised/lied on their promis of what they bought. Sucks a$$ but it’s the truth. There’s always a stuipd frivoulous lawsuits that a lawyer will take on, especially if they want to make a name for themself.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:56 am
To me the opportunity with the Volt is to expand the market into a broader segment of car sales, not to subdivide the small percentage that is Prius sales.
That is, Volt has to appeal to some of the 98%, not the 2% who have already made their choice.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:57 am
IF you were Toyota’s marketing people you would tell the world that the Volt ONLY gets 37 mpg and that you are MUCH better off getting a Prius…
I don’t think Toyota is going to spend much effort arguing about official MPG numbers. In fact I don’t think any manufacturer sees much benefit to talking about anything other than the benefits of their models. Prius Fanboys maybe but not Toyota.
An important point to keep in mind is that the Prius is doubtless a better buy for people who don’t drive much. Someone driving a hundred miles a week is never going to use the Volt battery fully enough to justify the expense. Some people here think that if you drive more than 40 miles a day then the Volt isn’t a good idea, but in fact the more miles you drive the more you utilize the battery, and the more you utilize the battery the better the better the Volt is at displacing gasoline.
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August 18th, 2009 at 11:58 am
nasaman — It doesn’t seem to me likely that the sticker is going to show any separate numbers for CD mode. The point of the sticker, right or wrong, is to have a few composite numbers, and for Volt that is going to be 230 city, whatever hwy, and 125+ combined.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Jim I on staying away from Volt vs Prius —> I completely agree. Rather than try to divide up a small percentage of total sales, the opportunity of the Volt is to attract peope from the other 98%.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
DonC on “never see” —> Yes, you are right.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Reread my argument, CaptJack.
The issue is the negative effect on “overall fuel mileage” based on a low CS mode MPG.
My point is that the only way this even matters is if you drive WAY over 40 miles per day, and can not intermittantly recharge.
20% don’t do this, drive WAY over 40 miles per day. I bet only 5% do, and also are unable to recharge intraday. You and I are talking apples and oranges.
To your argument: the Volt will deliver exactly what it is advertised to deliver, and the conditions required for making the claim will be revealed as well. Just like any other car.
I don’t see how GM can be held responsible for fuel mileage (lower OR higher) if the Volt is used outside of those conditions. Just like any other car.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
That’s a fair question.
Of course if you drive 75 mph here I can all but guarantee a nice chat with a Mountie! (They don’t generally have much of a sense of humour about the whole thing!)
This is of course a lot of guesswork since we really don’t have solid numbers but I’ll take a stab at it.
So running at 75 mph, I really don’t know what a volt will draw so lets guess 30kw OK? (I remember the 53 kw @ 100 mph number from someplace but can’t find the reference right now.) For the purposes of this example the actual number doesn’t really matter.
Lets say there is a ’sweetspot’ that makes 33kw at say 2500rpm and another that makes 28kw at 2200rpm. (Once again guessing because we don’t have numbers but I think it makes sence even if the numbers are off.)
The genset runs at the 2500 rpm until the battery hits say 35% and then slows to 2200 rpm and slowly blends in a little extra from the battery to give a steady 30 kw output. The near silent genset makes this unobtrusive. When the battery hits 30% it would go back to 2500 rpm and the cycle continues.
My semi educated guess.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
“The Volt is a pure electric, with a generator.”
The Volt is a “Series Hybrid” by principle and operates as so. It’s a Hybrid, multiple sources of propulsion either direct or indirect.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
I think that the genset pedal ‘follow’ is going to be from one ’sweet spot’ to another and I remain optimistic about efficency numbers.
You are right too that 32 mpg is nothing to scoff at, but for marketing purposes it has to be at least as good as the Prius on the genset.
Time will Tell!
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
The difference is that I LIKE Grover and Yoda!
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
With this, what is up?
Swollen, my head is.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I agree. It will be lost in the shuffle, since to most people, it is irrelevant.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
“The Volts ICE energy has to go through a generator and electronics and then to the electric motor – all those stages unfortunately mean around 15 to 20% losses”
But remember that those are electrical losses, and not load / efficiency losses on the ICE. the ICE drive the gen set..period. not the wheels, not the car, not the (fill it in)..JUST then gen set. If it produces 50kw at maximum fuel efficiency, you have 50 kw. Electrical transfer losses to the electric motor is negligible (less than .5%), it is the conversion loss from electric motor to drive that is higher. and those losses are there EVEN IF THE ICE IS OFF.
so if you can drive 100 miles 50kw @45MPH, your MPG is 100 (totally random out of my a$$ #s to examplify)
It must be remembered..
1- the ICE does not drive the car, just the GENSET
2- the energy losses are from the ELECRTIC motor to the drive.
3- those lossesa re there ALL THE TIME. it does not magically increase when the ICE is running. The ICE simply replaces the cord in your garage, providing power to the battery
4- power losses from gen set to batt, batt to motor will be less than 0.5% at ALL TIMES.
whe you factor all this in…the ICE can be VERY efficient.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Only 2% of the Cash-For-Clunkers claims made so far have been paid.
What happens to every dealer if the gov’t decides to turn on a dime and cancel?
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
But GM’s value proposition and main selling point of the Volt is the range extender!! What you are arguing for is a BEV by saying you should not drive past 100 miles a day. The Volt can be driven as a normal car, that means anyone can and should buy it.
If you want to drive all electric and will never go past 40 miles without charging, why in the world would you buy a Volt and not a way cheaper BEV?
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
This is a repost of a reply..everyone is commenting on electrical conversion losses…
Remember….that those are electrical losses, and not load / efficiency losses on the ICE. the ICE drive the gen set..period. not the wheels, not the car, not the (fill it in)..JUST then gen set. If it produces 50kw at maximum fuel efficiency, you have 50 kw. Electrical transfer losses to the electric motor is negligible (less than .5%), it is the conversion loss from electric motor to drive that is higher. and those losses are there EVEN IF THE ICE IS OFF.
so if you can drive 100 miles 50kw @45MPH, your MPG is 100 (totally random out of my a$$ #s to examplify)
It must be remembered..
1- the ICE does not drive the car, just the GENSET
2- the energy losses are from the ELECRTIC motor to the drive.
3- those lossesa re there ALL THE TIME. it does not magically increase when the ICE is running. The ICE simply replaces the cord in your garage, providing power to the battery
4- power losses from gen set to batt, batt to motor will be less than 0.5% at ALL TIMES.
whe you factor all this in…the ICE can be VERY efficient.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
not the same Mitch (me ) as post 12 and a few replies in cluding a repost at (the current) end here
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
With Toyota, it’s not the options that people necessarily want, but what is made available for sale that counts. When the troll(s) come with their infamous $25K Prius comparisons, I usually (when I care) tell them to take it if they can find it.
Toyo doesn’t make money selling stripped-down cars to Americans (anymore).
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
You understand you actually loose more energy in mechanical component of a car then you loose generating electricity? Only a fraction of the energy of an ICE is sent to drive the weals. All the rest is lost in eat, friction, etc…
It is actually more efficient to use an electric motor. This means the over all energy efficiency is higher in a REV.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Compare “average” energy requirement to “peak” energy requirement, and you may find that you can get by with very little from the ICE at any given moment. The battery isn’t shunted off when it’s 40 miles is done; it’s still there to buffer the generator for starts (and recover energy from stops).
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Charge sustaining mode?
Is that the new politcally correct term for gasoline sucking/pollution spewing mode
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
CaptJack,
This is silly.
“Set the AER aside”??? Did you actually type this? You can not do that if you want to have a real discussion about the Volt. Sorry.
Your tone is negative on the Volt because of “lazy people” not plugging it in? Really??
There are lots of ways to disparage the Volt, but simply “setting aside” the advantages of the VOLT to make an inferior comparison to a Prius is rediculous.
By that token, I will have to say my Blazer is a better car than the Prius. Setting aside the fuel mileage, I get more people in it, more stuff in it, its faster, and its 4WD. The Blazer is the clear winner!
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
You could be right, but I think that GM will be MUCH better off if that door is closed.
Right now Toyota pretty much has the ultra efficency market to itself, since the Insight is a disapointment in every review I have seen.
The Volt is going to have them on their toes.
It’s quite possible Toyota could go negative in their ad campains.
It works in politics doesn’t it?
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
I think that the Volt should have the same or better performance as other $40K + vehicles.
Chevy Volt’s MPG in Generator Mode is important; however for the cost, the Volt should have the acceleration of comparable priced vehicles. Also if a lower MPG in Generator Mode could protect the battery pack more, my vote is to lower it. 40-40-40 has good ring to it…of course like everyone else let’s hope the price is less than 40 ($40K).
40 AER 40 city/ 40 highway
The Prius has user selectable performance modes to select your style of driving. The Volt could have same thing.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
What’s the MPG of a Prius if you take the battery out?
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Like cycling the RPMs? I bet that would be distracting. Then again, I don’t know how those software guys will run things. Cycling the battery like that for hours seems doable but how does that effect battery life? Will we know for 5 years? There is also some efficiency loss when storing energy in the battery and then extracting that energy. Nothing is for free.
Anyway, I guess we will need to have the car in our hands to do the testing and do the comparisons. Frank? You got one to spare?
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Don’t forget the Volt’s improved aero (vs. Cruze).
Plus, if we’re talking CS mode on the highway… although it may happen less often, there may be a bit of regen braking benefit as well.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
ME TOO
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
True, but I am not sure the Prius will not be a little roomier than the Volt due to the leg room in the back and the use of the full width back seat. I have found the leg and head room very good on my multiple Prius test drives. We will have to wait and see just how roomy the Volt is. The Volt will be the better vehicle once you overcome the higher price and think about the long term fuel savings, etc.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Patrick,
You also need to reread my post.
I did not say you should NOT drive past 100 miles per day.
I said if you “routinely” drive past 100 miles per day.
The range extender is exactly that, a range extender. It is used to alleviate any and all range anxiety issues. For all lengths of drives, any day, anywhere, anytime.
If you intend to use the range extender during a significant part of your drive, on a DAILY BASIS, perhaps the Volt is not for you.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I have a 9.8 mile 1 way commute. I think I will blow the 230 MPG away.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
I feel so USED!!!
hehheh.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
I am not too sure that the fossil fuel was ever “cheap”. Even when I was a little kid and gasoline was about $.29/gal the cost to fill up a tank still took a lot out of your weekly budget. During those time a lot of people worked for less than a $1.00 per hour. I can remember some wages paying less than $.50 per hour. It is all relative, I suppose.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
I believe I have read on this site (not recently) that the next engine will be one designed from scratch for use as the generator of an EREV. Displacement was to be 1 liter (no other information was available). This was cited as “Gen III,” but they have since said that improvements to Voltec would not be released in literal generational models, but would be gradually incorporated (with priority given to those improvements which lower costs for the same performance benchmarks).
Even so, I’d expect something so radical as a change of engine would be segregated over a model year, when it is ready.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Correct. Its called a deadband. That way your ICE can stay at the sweet spot for as long as possible. Of course there will always be some Pike Peak scenario that wont allow for that, but most of us will only need extra power from the battery during short accelerations.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Er, did you look at the banner? It clearly states 23 MPG, with a smiling outlet stating it. Very clever of GM.
http://www.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.1362294.1250024899!image/1102937549.jpg_gen/derivatives/display_600/1102937549.jpg
The not so subtle point there is that the MPG metric is old toast, last century’s game.
What matters from here on out is 100% electric drive, however you want to configure/fuel/energy carry it. If you got 100% electric drive, you’re the sh!t. If you don’t got it, you ain’t got jack sh!t.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Me too, but at a lower speed of 50 MPH.
Although I drive much farther than you do on a daily basis.
I am still amazed at how much gas I save doing that speed.
Prior to last summer, I was regularly doing 80- 90 MPH.
But with the gas prices and my intense dislike for Middle Eastern governments, I have slowed down.
The Volt is so important to many people on so many different levels.
I truly hope it gets over 50 MPG with the ICE on. This cars needs to be really impressive.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
The varible that we do not yet know is what the efficency gains will be by decoupling the engine from the wheels so it can run at optimised speeds.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
True the Cruze will be 40mpg hwy. But the way the Volt is run the hwy and city numbers should be close. And the hwy numbers from the Cruze are more relevent than the city when comparing to the Volt because the Cruze doesn’t have regen braking and it’s engine doesn’t shut off when stoped.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Nothing different there, Muddy. About usual for our group. It is that way with most groups, I guess. Optimist and pessimist. They inhabit all groups.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
I suppose you could be right. Stranger things have happened, I bet.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I do not think so. The Prius motor still needs to move through the RPM range to move the Car. That is something the VOLT will not have to do. Even in the city the VOLT in CS mode will be like cruising down a straight hiway in Cruise Control.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Texas,
I have thought about moving closer. But I work on Connecticut’s Gold Coast. The houses here are triple and quadruple the price I paid for mine. Trust me, it will take a lot of fuel to make up for $500k – $750K.
And unfortunately, there aren’t any jobs in between where I live and where I work.
But I really really really want a Chevy Volt.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
>> The 1.4L will get crappy mileage
>> atrocious emissions
Proof, or GTFO.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
No matter how Toyota spins the new prius its simply an intermediate technology.
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Hmmm….the Prius went on sale in 1997 in Japan…so 12 years already…making a profit as I understand now. The Volt is not even released yet…and is speculated to cost significantly more…and at a loss to GM. While most people could pay 1-2 times more for a cell phone (think iPhone), it is a totally different story with cars.
Somehow I think that the Prius will continue to do just fine for years to come…unless a significant breakthrough in cost of electrical energy storage occurs. In which case Toyota’s HSD is scalable to plug-in…which is already being worked on.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Baby seals! Can’t beat ‘em!
Oh wait, you CAN… it’s not very nice though.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Hey, if begging works, go for it.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
OK, Old Man. You win the begging contest. Hands down!
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Dodge Grand Cherokee? WHAT? I thought Jeep made those.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
“If the carbon saturation theory holds any weight it appears I can also kill you with my Volt.”
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Shock, we should be so lucky. Way to tell him.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
no…but if you need a frame of reference…
it is similar to the prius almost ANY time you dirve it over 30 MPH, or need quick acceleration……
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
You guys know you can put whatever you want in the Einstein chalkboard generator right?
http://www.hetemeel.com/einsteinform.php
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
MuddyRoverBob, I think you have nailed how the generator and the electric motor are going to interact, both in highway and city CS driving. I don’t think the passenger will be able to tell when the generator powers up and down on the highway, the difference will be so slight. I also think that it is possible that the generator will shut off entirely in low load situations, like if you are driving 35 mph for more than a few minutes. But as soon as you accelerate away from a stop sign or climb a hill, the gen will come back on.
Lithium Ion batteries don’t have memory effect problems like NiCad batteries did, so charging and depleting from 30% to 35% shouldn’t cause undue wear on the battery.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
The new modern engines are pretty darn smooth, I bet all you would notice in the cabin at 75 mph would be the tach changing (assuming there IS a tach of course) There will still be road and wind noise.
You are right of course we can’t take this discussion much farther without a real world test.
With all respect my friend I hope you are wrong on this point and the on genset mileage is 50-60 mpg!
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
I think that’s why it would be great to integrate the NAV system into the logic. That way IF Pikes peak is on your route the car can prep for it.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
I still think this conversation shows people don’t have the right idea. If you are driving any significant number of miles on the ICE, you probably shouldn’t buy the car. The ICE on the Volt should be used for conditioning the battery, doing those few extra miles that you didn’t plan for, and occasional long trips.
The idea should be to maximize the AER by charging during the day. Charge at work. Charge at home between errands, but try and plan your day to finish at 30% charge so you can charge overnight with the cheaper electricity.
The whole point of the volt should be to minimize using the ICE, but have the ICE to condition the battery and provide a buffer OCCASIONALLY.
Start getting your work places to install charging stations.
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August 18th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Certainly!
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
My family will be happy with an EREV Orlando achieving 45mpg ICE with an initial 35 miles battery range. A four seat sedan is a tougher sell for us.
As far as the Volt goes. I stick with my aforementioned guesstimates. Electric motor drive, wind tunnel tuned, low roll resistance tires, “sweet spot” E-support system, small fuel tank, lack of transmission unit.
Initial battery range 38-60 miles
highway mpg (70mph) 50-56 miles
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Here’s some food for thought. The world of yachts has gone though heavy R&D over the years. Trying to get more and more speed from the hull. One innovation used in America’s Cup racing was a fish scale type coating for the hull with produced about a 1/2 mph increase over the standard smooth plastic surface. Another huge innovation was the winged keel.
Why use a winged keel? Because the winged keel creates a small amount of lift. In effect, making the boat lighter. And therefore faster.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see NGMCO work a bit of lift into the final design of the Volt.
yes we can?
=D~
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Also notice the difference between 50mpg and 40mpg is really pointless. If you drive 10,000 miles in a year, you are talking about a difference of 50 gallons of gas (or $125). The RE-mode MPG number is only important if you want to remove most of the battery from the Volt to reduce its cost and just basically have a car the runs in RE mode all the time.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Stop it, you’re hurting me.
=D~
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
I get 27 MPG in my AWD RAV4 with 3rd row seats carrying 4 people and gear at 70 MPH. The Prius gets well over 40 MPG (I have a friend with a 2009 Prius that claims 50 MPG in those conditions). I’ll go with 43-47 MPG in CS mode even at 70 MPH.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I would like to hear more about Volt Gen 2 genset. What is under consideration?
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Look, I’m a good example.
CASE 1: I drive 100 miles per day for my commute. Without recharging intraday, thats about 60 miles in CS mode. If MPG in CS mode is ~40mpg, then I will get ~67mpg daily with a Volt. Certainly great, but not a significant improvement over, say a homely Prius.
CASE 2: Now if I can recharge during the day, which I WILL, now I’m going ~80 miles electric and ~20 miles in CS mode. Using 40mpg for CS mode, I will get the equivalent of ~200mpg on my daily commute with a Volt. No range anxiety ever.
That’s a screaming deal for me. Even in the first case its a deal, just not a screaming deal.
CASE 3: You drive 150 miles per day, no intraday charge. 110 miles in CS mode will deliver a daily equivalent of ~54mpg with a Volt. Should this person buy a Volt?
The point is should GM try to sell a Volt to people following case 1, case 2 AND case 3? Or should they send the case 3 people elsewhere? What about case 1?
It is a serious matter of educating your customers so they know EXACTLY what to expect with a Volt.
I don’t see anything wrong with sending people who are not in the targeted purchase population somewhere else. Especially if it avoids serious potential negative publicity from uneducated consumers. GM may even come out looking super customer-oriented.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Interesting piece from yahoo auto…
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/107535/volt-vs-prius-which-wil-be-cheaper-to-drive??mod=family-autos
=D~
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
I don’t know if my daily drive were over 100 miles, I would still drive a Volt. I’d do my best to charge at night. Then I would either move closer to my work or see if I could plug in there.
People living in rural areas where one family member commutes to a nearby city for work could still benefit since 40 of the first 50 miles is electric.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
WOW… we really are going down the rat hole now aren’t we?
We have genset mileage guesses from 23 mpg to 100 mpg!
The frustrating bit is that even Frank and team can’t yet know exactly where it will end up!
I’m almost missing the ‘fairy dust’ and ‘unicorn horn’ chats!
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Exactly right.
This has been a disheartening conversation today.
Lots of education still needed.
And a recognition that the Volt will not be ideal for everybody. Just like any other car.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Is there no data from Fisker on their Karma w/essentially the same concept as the Volt? What is their MPG in RE-mode?
This is all i find on the website:
A fully-charged Karma burns no fuel for the first 50 miles. Venture further and the gasoline engine turns a generator to charge the lithium ion battery. Once the 50-mile electric range has been exceeded, the car operates as a normal hybrid vehicle. This balance of electric and gas range makes it entirely possible that Karma drivers who charge their car overnight and commute less than 50 miles a day will achieve an average fuel economy of 100 mpg (2.4L/100km) per year.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Actually, back in the 80’s and early 90’s, gas was less than a dollar a gallon. So, during that period it certainly was relatively cheap.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Of course, but comparisons are inevitable.
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
OT.
Gm to make a $4000.000 micro car…
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/4000DollarCarFromGM.aspx
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
THAT is cool!
Lyle you still rock!
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
intersting link..but I see they are comparing the base prius and not one similarly equipped.
at least they say even the Prius may not make sense versus say a Cobalt XFE…
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
The author forgot to mention the Volt also charges from regenerative braking. He also didnt make the comparison between the driving experience of a Volt and a Prius. What’s the payback period on a Lexus?
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I believe that at highway speeds, 60 to 70 mph, on level ground, the ICE will run constantly. They have already mentioned the difference between the max output of the generator (smaller value) and the max input of the motor (larger value). This tells us that they have already optimized the engine/generator size for the target “cruise” velocity (the theoretical optimal speed) when they chose the non-turbo version of the ICE. So, in theory at least, it will have to run steadily (and toward the top end of its RPM range) to maintain highway speed.
Given this steady state case, there is just no way that the Volt drivetrain design is going to be as efficient as the Prius/Insight designs. The direct mechanical coupling of the Prius/Insight designs is always going to be more efficient than the engine/generator/motor design of the Volt.
And nobody seems to be hearing this so I’ll repeat it yet again; why do you think that GM is not reporting the MPG in CS mode? Why have they not let reporters ride in an IV during CS mode? Why have they not turned an IV over to any outsider for a technical evaluation? The only plausible answer is because the news isn’t that good!
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August 18th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
he has a jeep and a caravan..cross polination = new breed of 4×4 minivan, the dodge grand cherokee!!
the red heaedd step child
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