GM has invested over $1 billion and significant human capital developing the Voltec propulsion system that will power the Chevy Volt.
When the company first announced it had changed the name from E-Flex to Voltec, and that it would be doing its own pack assembly in house, it came to me that selling Voltec to other automakers might be a good business plan.
At the time I actually asked Bob Lutz about it and he said that GM actually hadn’t thought about it at the time.
It seems they are thinking about it now, at least a little.
According to GM CEO Fritz Henderson he, “wouldn’t rule that out if the opportunity were to arise.”
Though the opportunity apparently isn’t there yet, and he also doesn’t expect it to be too promising in the future.
“I wouldn’t necessarily see that as a large revenue stream,” he said.
GM has recently opened a 160,000 square foot battery pack assembly plant in Brownstown Michigan where the T-packs both for the Chevy Volt and its European sister the Opel/Vauxhall Ampera will be made.
Of course before GM sells Voltec to any wanting automakers, they will have to “actually get (Voltec) into production ourselves,” said Henderson.
It is widely known that GM themselves will not be making profit on the first or maybe even seconds generation Volts.
“The cost of Generation I technology is relatively high, so we need to get it down to Generation II,” said Henderson. “That’s our focus today. I don’t rule out anything in that regard (selling electric-vehicle technology).”
Source (Wards Auto, subscription)
This entry was posted on Sunday, August 16th, 2009 at 8:56 am and is filed under Financial, Voltec. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:02 am)After spending a Billion on it, I kind of doubt they will be selling it to companies that sell cars in competition with GM. I think the comments on price reductions on Gen II is the important part of this interview. Wish they were confident enough to name a probable date of the Gen II vehicles.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:08 am)Toyota has done this successfully. They just sell one Gen older than they have fielded.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:09 am)ziv,
I’d love that too, but lets get Gen I on the road first! (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+10
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:13 am)Lyle
Thanks for getting Statik to do the guest Op-Ed. Great job by both of you.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:19 am)“I’d love that too, but lets get Gen I on the road first! (g)”.
Tag,
Somehow, I thought you might say that.
George
=D~~~~
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:22 am)George K,
I’m getting to be a broken record, but it’s a message that’s been true for a long time now.
Be well,
Tagamet
PS My Father-in-law was a George K too!
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+4
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:29 am)Right, Tag! ….and Ford’s drive train engineers & patent attorneys have found ways to improve on the older Prius technology without infringing on Toyota’s patents OR their licensing agreements with Toyota —example?
—the 2010 Fusion Hybrid!
….And GM’s new battery plant will be supplying 8KWh batteries to the 2011 Buick/Vue plug-in CUV, plus this vehicle will also get the Volt’s smaller, more efficient traction motor control & battery charging electronics, which should give them some inter-divisional practice in sharing the Voltec technology.
/Lutz & Fritz aren’t admitting it, but they’re well aware how profitable GM’s licensing of intellectual property rights were during the first 100 years of their history!
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:29 am)Tag
“PS My Father-in-law was a George K too!”
There’s a coincidence. So was my father.
George
=D~~~~
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:45 am)George K,
Maybe we are half brothers! (lol). (Way off topic)(g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-6
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:49 am)Wait a minute, why NOT sell it now?
As it is, the Volt is a risk, no garuantee to make money (or even that it will work in the real world, if you are pessimistic). Selling unproven technology is a great deal for GM, expecially if they don’t expect to make money on it for years. If the Volt is mostly a media showboat (and we all know that), then what is the harm to the bottom line? GM is not going to be making money off this tech until 2018, nor having any significant volumes. So who cares about competition in a tiny volume side market? This would be like coca-cola selling the secret recipe to diet carrot juice…can’t hurt ‘em.
Of course, if other auto companies want to buy even longer shot, even less-proven technology, they can plop some money down for some Eestor vaporware.
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+3
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:55 am)Uh, shouldn’t the headline be using the word “Licencing”, rather than “Selling”? I can’t imagine GM selling the technology outright.
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-3
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:58 am)e-mail address change
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+3
Aug 16th, 2009 (10:01 am)anyone notice how thick those yellow power cables are?.. 150hp worth of juice flows thru them.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (10:13 am)When Stephen Jobs came back to his floundering and dying company, the wise and well payed experts that were sinking the ship had sold rights to others to manufacture Macs with their software program to make some quick money. Thus Apple Computer was in direct competition in making it’s machines with others. There was an argument that Mac should only do software like Microsoft but Jobs had something else in mind. He wanted Apple Computer to have sole rights to making it’s own hardware in conjunction with the software. Innovation and quality control were to be in house. He bought the start up companies and that was that. (I am certain that other details are there)
In short, Jobs turned Apple around and has gained a significant market share increase. He said that in a market full of Chevy’s (see Microsoft) there was room for Mercedes… . Apple has led the way in elegant machines and software.
GM, having spent a tidy sum in Voltec development is likewise like Apple building product all in a very competitive market. It seems penny wise and pound foolish to offer competitors Voltec technology whether it is 1st gen or 5th gen. Keeping this in house would be in the long range, more reasonable. Short range thinking has gotten GM and others in a rather sticky wicket. It is presumptuous of me to assume that there has been some learning in this economy for such a huge and successful company.
Regards! Higgins and The Lads, Zeus & Apollo
PS: Like Statik, there comes a point of saturation overload. Writing a book and training for my 29th marathon is demanding and takes a great deal of attention and so I seldom lurk and then join into the maelstrom of comments. Maybe after the book comes out. Oh, and I am not going to sell the intellectual product of my book to other authors. One, they might be better writers! LOL!
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:18 am)So profitable that GM stayed solvent? Wrote a piece down below.
Regards!—-Higgins & Co.
PS: Maybe NASA can make a quick buck by selling intellectual property, oh, say to the Red Chinese.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:20 am)Is that a white IVER in the background?
The Voltec ad campaign is more about image rebuilding than selling cars at this point. And no one is going to believe NGMCO will sell the rights to manufacture any portion of the technology to anyone soon.
There is a good chance that NGMCO will be the ones buying technology and board seats from others. You’ll see.
Am I right Statik?
=D~
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (10:25 am)I’m encouraged by the photo above. It looks from this angle that the battery will be loaded from underneath the car. Is it possible that the batteries will be upgradeable this easily, in the future?
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:31 am)What do we know to be true about Volt generation-II and how it might differ from generation-I?
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:35 am)We learned several months ago on this website that the battery pack and its replacement will indeed be loaded from underneath the car. The photo above and others we’ve previously seen verifies this.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:36 am)Yellow things – flex conduit for control cables.
Yes it’s a bottom loader – New pack ~~~> New car?
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:41 am)I do not see a problem with licensing Voltec to GM’s spin-off companies, such as Saturn and Opel. I think by January 2010 we should get some actual information concerning the cost of second generation lithium-ion batteries. Perhaps they will have double the energy (240 Wh/kg vice 120 Wh/kg) but similar production cost, thus halving the cost per kwh.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (10:45 am)Marcus at 10:25am,
It seems to me that since the newer battery ought to be smaller, that it might be possible if the electronics and other design parameters are set up in Gen1 to accommodate the better batteries/different designs of Gen2/3 battery pack/electronics/etc., (which is my hope if I were able to get a Gen1), and, it works out that the warranty- replacement pack is this type of upgrade, if it would indeed work for GM and the customer.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:47 am)The photo above is very interesting. It appears to show a covering on the top and sides of the battery pack? Is that covering part of the Volt interior (i.e. carpet, insulation, etc.)?
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (10:52 am)Ok, I have battery/electric range on the brain………..forgivable I suppose since that is what makes the Volt unique. Static and few others, myself included, have talked about how much gas-free driving the Volt will actually provide when taking into account driving habits, use of AC, etc.
Isn’t it true that GM says going forward they plan to focus on making the batteries smaller and lighter rather than increasing the electric range from 40 to say, 60 miles?
Seems to me that if they have that option to decide to go one way or the other, they should be able to insure a robust 40 mile range under ALL circumstances pretty confidently in future generations.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:02 am)I like that angle, that perhaps the newer battery could have marketing advantages somehow for perhaps a 50 mile range on electric with AC duty-cycle ramp-up. (25% in the morning drive, peaking to 100% duty-cycle in the hot afternoon drive home).
I think that would be astounding, but, then again, the cost for having the genset in the Volt would not be as much as a “return on investment” if battery production costs are not somehow able to be brought down for Gen2/3, (but it could work exactly the other way too regarding costings).
In any case, it will all be a fascinating unfolding of how technology and market evolve best for GM and the rest of us.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:10 am)I had the same thought, but I suppose we here know what he meant by it. If this were mainstream media speaking to the uninformed, we could cry foul, but here it’s… meh. That being said, a name change would still be appropriate
.
NPNS!!! =D~~~
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:14 am)Estero,
Other than the fact that they will follow Gen I, NOTHING is known to be true about Gen II or III. Some things have been discussed as POSSIBLE, but if you want to discuss them just ask. I type REALLY slowly, so I try to minimize keystrokes.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:17 am)Estero,
I think it’s insulation, but that’s just a guess. I don’t think that the battery (or it’s carpet) would be exposed to the interior.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (11:18 am)Right, it would be great to say the Volt WILL go 40 miles guaranteed under all circumstances and then have the hyper-milers calling in bragging about their 50+ miles, etc.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (11:21 am)I’d hope that if Gen II was able to shrink the battery size that they’d make the car a 5 seater – remove whatever is interfering with the middle backseat. That would increase it’s prospective population of buyers.
JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:27 am)jdsv,
Thanks for posting that. It saved me a lot of typing and hits the nail about the laid back attitude we TRY for here.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+2
Aug 16th, 2009 (11:37 am)it would be nice if a range was an option.. make the internal configuration of the battery pack modular so you can order in increments of 10 miles.. lets say starting at 10 miles and going up to 100 miles if possible.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:38 am)Estero–Looking at the battery, I see a horsecollar (Spongy) at the engine compartment end. It appears to be intended to shield the passenger compartment from ICE heat. The Corvette used to have the same thing to isolate Transmission & Engine heat from your right foot.
I also see a heat shield on the side of the tunnel gapping about 1 1/4″ from the floor pan.
The battery and ICE will probably all be raised at the same time to the underbody. That way many of the connections can be made before installation. In the field repairs would allow separation before dropping.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:39 am)yes I think its insulation.. the whole pack fits in an enclosed tunnel from some of the pictures I have seen.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:39 am)There is no way on God’s green earth GM would or should “sell” Voltec technology outright. They did that with the EV1’s NiMH battery technology and that ended up being the mia culpa to end all for several reasons, not the least of which is the PR of who they sold it to (in 20 years, I and many people will still remember GM for that), but it also set the electric car effort back at least 10 years (GM had a prototype Voltec EV1 back in 1999). They also would’ve made bank off Toyota and Honda’s NiMH use in their hybrids, instead Chevron controls the patent.
If you mean licensing, the reason Volt’s will command such a premium for the first few years especially is because there is nothing else like it no matter how much you are willing to pay (ok, except the Fisker Karma but who knows how well such a complex vehicle will be engineered by a start up company in less than half the time the Volt’s been in development and it costs twice as much).
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:43 am)even better, get rid of the tunnel completely and put the cells under the whole floor of the car.. like Nissan is doing with the Leaf. Gives the car a whole lot more inside room, similar to a FWD car compared to the tunnel in a RWD car.
Apparently this T-Pack is a legacy design from the old EV-1 BEV, and that shape came from using bulky lead acid batteries, maybe.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:45 am)AND I think they need to get that 5th seat! (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:45 am)it looks like the pack is easy to replace, besides the fact that it is heavy and large.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:47 am)Almost every car maker already has a PHEV project going on. Not sure any of the big boys will buy the technology from GM.
Also, it seems GM’s batteries are expensive. Nissan indicated their batteries cost less than $500/kwh – infact GM’s 16kwh battery and Nissan’s 24 kwh battery might cost about the same.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:51 am)Given their start of the new battery factory, I’m not at all sure how easily large format changes can be accomplished (such as mimicking the LEAF format). It sounds like the initial format(s) is pretty well “fixed” as far as shape. No? Help me out here.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-6
Aug 16th, 2009 (11:53 am)I stated weeks ago that the tech is so valuable that the government might mandate it sale or license. I believe that Chrysler would be the first most likely customer, as they paid for GM’s other hybrid systems.
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+2
Aug 16th, 2009 (11:59 am)jason,
How is it any more valuable than say the Toyota or Tesla tech? I’m all for the Volt, but I’m definitely against the govt stepping into an area such as mandating that an American company license it’s technology. Then again, I wasn’t “for” the govt buying a major share in GM either. Go figure. (Let the rants begin – at least it’s on topic).
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:23 pm)I fear that a wide flat battery will be difficult to protect during the crash test. Wide and long steel sheets are prone to bending. Just my opinion. Could be wrong.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:27 pm)Nissan has less battery to worry about regarding battery life mandates so they can make theirs cheaper. JUST A WAG
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Aug 16th, 2009 (12:33 pm)It always look easy when you have the car hoisted and all the other parts are not installed. I imagine, once the battery is installed, then all the other underbody components, that access will not be as easy as one may believe. Also, you will note how they have the car on stands, since you cannot use a standard lift, which would interfere with battery insertion location. So, you will need to go to a specialty shop that can hoist the car, and still provide access as depicted. I assume not many shops will have this capability, at least for quite some time.
/Just removed a knock sensor from my 1996 Altima. Took me 2 1/2 hours including trip to hardware store to get the 12 mm wrench (I seem to have lost one, and of course that was the one). This sensor would be a 1 minute job if only the engine were installed, but then you put in the rest of the goodies, and unless your plasty-man, you have no easy way to torque that bolt off.
BTW: I was just wanting to remove and test the sensor, since diagnostics said it was bad. But, I ended up cracking the darn thing as I tried to wrench it out. Ordered new one on-line for $71, NAPA wanted $184!
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+4
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:36 pm)That Ford is using Toyota technology is something of a myth. Both the Ford and the Toyota technology came from earlier pioneering work. Both companies extended the technology independently. After a legal spate which indicated that neither were going to be big winners, they agreed to cross license their patents. At this point it’s hard to know if Ford is using Toyota technology or Toyota is using Ford technology. Basically the cross licensing allows both companies to develop without worrying about legal issues.
Software control technology may be somewhat different.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:38 pm)Good luck with that marathon. Twenty-nine? That is one huge number. You must be in terrific shape. Come back when you finish up.
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+3
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:38 pm)If this quote holds true, “I (Fritz Henderson) wouldn’t necessarily see that as a large revenue stream,” selling the Voltec technology without making a significant large amount of money, does not any financial sense to me. Why sell the technology to a competitor, just to have them grab sales from GM? It makes even less sense when GM has a big lead on this technology.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (12:41 pm)1. It will be less expensive.
2. It will be less expensive.
3. The battery will be smaller.
4. it will be less expensive.
5. The genset may use a different ICE technology or use a smaller purpose built engine
6. It will be expensive.
7. The battery will be less expensive
8. It will be less expensive.
9. The body won’t change much if at all.
0. The range won’t change
It will be less expensive. it will be less expensive. it will be less expensive.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:41 pm)Maybe they want to sell their technology because they did the math and EREV may not be the way to go. Especially in a couple years.
As has been discussed before, for example comparing the volt to the Leaf, it is mostly the economics and also the range anxiety factor.
The biggest point of any EV will be HOW MAY GALLONS of GAS you can replace with electricity. That is the math that matters. That is why the issue of can you get 30 or 40 miles with the VOLT is a deal breaker. Simple math if you average 30 miles a day electric that is 10,950 miles of electric driving a year. If you average 40 miles a day that is 14,600 miles a year electric.
These posters that say ‘i only drive 20 miles a day’, they wouldn’t be replacing much gasoline would they? So they would not be the early adapters because it would cost them too much until the electric cars cost the same or less than the gas ones.
Eventually the cost, and the range won’t be issues (lower cost technology with future generations and convenient rapid charge stations will make all electric cars superior to all gas cars). But for early adoption (2011-2015 models), to make the math work you need to replace as much gas as possible for the extra cost of the vehicle relative to a gas car.
So even if the Leaf cost as much as the volt, and even if you could only count on 70 miles per charge on the leaf versus 35 miles per charge on the Volt, you would have the potential to displace more gas with the Leaf.
Do the Math, lets say conservatively as World Oil Production slips and demand increases, that the cost of a gallon of gas is $4 a gallon more than the equivalent amount of electricty (say $5 a gallon plus). So if you displaced 1000 gallons of gas a year saving $4000 as opposed to displacing 500 gallons a year saving $2000, you can see how much ahead you are with more electric range and quicker charging.
So in summary what I’m looking for is the most electric range relative to the extra cost of the vehicle (to a comparable ICE car), along with the options for charging.
I believe charging at the office is viable for me and for many people. Charging at work alone will be maybe the biggest issue to make these cars affordable. Remember these cars don’t make sense for people that only drive 20 miles a day until the costs come down. But if you drive 30 miles to work and can charge your car there, then come back home and have miles for extra trips.
Remember Lyle’s example of getting to work, and then having to turn around without charging the vehicle. This is why you need enough range to get to work and back, even if you can charge it at work so that when you leave work on a normal day you have extra range.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (12:41 pm)GM has mentioned, I believe that the next generation would do away with the T and just be a straight pack.
I do not think the T-pack is legacy, but based upon the need to pack as many KW as possible in the space available. You cannot make the pack longer, since it would interfere with the axles. Making it flatter and wider is an option, but that has its own set of problems.
Battery size has decreased dramatically (see the original T-pack that the green goblin demo’ed a few months ago). The original T-pack was at least 30% larger and was encased in metal (stainless?).
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Aug 16th, 2009 (12:47 pm)I had the “pleasure” on driving a Pontiac G6 all last week while on vacation.
It is the first Pontiac I have driven since my 1986 Pontiac Sunbird disaster.
About the G6
It sucked on gas.
The ignition switch kept locking in the off position.
The lights stay on after the car is turned off.
It handled poorly in the Smoky Mountains.
The doors kept locking every time I took the car out of Park.
I truly hated this car and it helped me remember exactly why I haven’t bought an American car since 1986.
As quickly as possible, let’s get a very reliable Chevy Volt on the road.
Make it a good one, GM. Please don’t use any of the past practices of making crap cars. The Volt must be SPOT-ON.
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+3
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:53 pm)Ford has never bought the Prius technology. This is just a misconception. It seems very few in the media can ever give American’s credit for car it’s car technologies. Click on link below.
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/03/once-more-with-feeling-ford-does-not-use-the-toyota-hybrid-syst/
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Aug 16th, 2009 (12:53 pm)What the government gives it can take. Patents are government created monopolies which contravene both free market and democratic principles. Nothing wrong with enforced licensing, especially since the courts have so expanded the scope of patents beyond what was originally contemplated. The government does it all the time in the defense area.
Basically since patents represent government intervention in the free market, it’s hard to argue that the government should never, regardless of the circumstances, stop intervening or ratchet back its intervention.
FWIW I agree with your point that neither Voltec nor hybrid technology requires that to happen at the present time. I do, however, think that, among other things, the requirement for “non-obivousness” should be more rigorously enforced and that injunctions should also be reserved for truly extraordinary situations.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (12:54 pm)Excellent point!
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+2
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:58 pm)I’m sure they meant ‘licensing’ which is a form of a ’sales transaction’.
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-2
Aug 16th, 2009 (12:59 pm)Many have suggested that the auto manufacturers could make more money becoming fabricators. Licensing the Voltec technology would be one step in that direction. Just off the top of my head, Fisker, Tesla, and Aperta could use such licenses, and none of these car makers remotely threaten GM’s overall business success.
I could also see some benefit accruing to GM if it formed a cross licensing arrangement with Honda for both Voltec and hydrogen technology.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (1:01 pm)The price of the car will be the same.
The price of the car will be the same.
GM will start to make a profit.
The price of the car will be the same.
The price of the car will then go up.
GM will start to make a little more profit.
The price of the car will go up some more.
GM ‘might ‘ payback all those government loans.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (1:03 pm)It certainly couldn’t be loaded from inside the car.
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+2
Aug 16th, 2009 (1:09 pm)Here is something of interest. My feeling is this will be used in Gen II.
http://www.examiner.com/x-3721-Detroit-Automotive-Technology-Examiner~y2009m6d11-Imagine-an-HCCI-engine-in-a-Chevy-Volt
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (1:09 pm)From the videos I remember the primer being white. So it may just not have been painted yet.
Yeah you’re right about Voltec being more about image than sales at this point. But that’s more or less what Toyota did with the Prius and what Nissan is doing with the LEAF and what Honda would like to do with FX Clarity. If you’re only going to make 10,000 cars in the next two years because the technology is so expensive what else are you going to do?
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Aug 16th, 2009 (1:11 pm)Great cite. That’s the one I would have liked to have used! As for the WSJ, what is up with their reporting about cars?
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Aug 16th, 2009 (1:13 pm)I think the tank like structure of the pack is even more impressive! It shows the lengths GM is going to protect its “DIVA”.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (1:24 pm)Of course a struggling company should be open to other offers/approaches.
Really fun stuff this new tech is–can go soooo many different directions. And I sense developments will occur much faster than most people think–this is big business, with competition all over the board–between researchers, companies, even countries.
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+4
Aug 16th, 2009 (1:38 pm)Thanks for correcting/clarifying what I said, Don & Joe! You’re both right that what Toyota & Ford did was cross license to avoid legal fights —more power to ya, Ford (I’m impressed by the Fusion Hybrid & its superiority to the Prius, Lexus, etc hybrids from Toyota)!!!
/(hums a stanza or two of Yankee Doodle Dandy)
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Aug 16th, 2009 (1:40 pm)It would be cool to have a version of this to power a home when solar can charge the batteries.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (1:41 pm)I own a G6 and for the money, it’s a good car. It get’s great gas mileage. On the highway, the computer usually gives me a readout of about 34 mpg. The lights stays on at night to light your pathway and then goes off…. it works just like many other cars. The doors lockup if it’s configured that way. I guess, you don’t know this. This writeup is just a putdown on GM. You’ve got to compare an apple for an apple. Anyhow, fear not, this car will not be made for much longer.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (1:44 pm)Aren’t the lights, locks programmable…check your manual
Hi altitude and smokey mountains = crap mileage for anything and most likely 20 miles on battery
Thin air, low power unless it’s a turbo or supercharged.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (1:47 pm)Hey, GM can license the tech to whoever they want to, BUT..
I really don’t want a repeat of the 90’s. It would be unaccecptable, in my opnion, if they were to sell the voltec technology outright to one of the oil companies.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (1:48 pm)Well said Tag. Agreed.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (1:56 pm)“/Lutz & Fritz aren’t admitting it, but they’re well aware how profitable GM’s licensing of intellectual property rights were during the first 100 years of their history!”
**************************************************************
This is true to a certain extent, but the timing has to be right….before this can work to GM’s advantage. Licensing when the Volt just comes out, would be of a bad choice. Give the Volt sale momentum before. We know that the competitors cannot infringe on GM’s patent so let them sweat a little before licensing it’s technology.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (2:17 pm)Each cell is about the size and shape of a thick magazine, so the most efficient way to pack them together is like books on a shelf.
Right now the pattery pack consists of 3 separate strings of these cells connected in parallel. I could easily see a LOT of cost savings by going to a single string of even larger format cells. Same energy, 1/3 the number of cells (although larger an more expensive each), 1/3 the electronics and plumbing (same caveat), 1/3 the assembly labor. The result *should* be 50% savings in cost.
The resulting pack would be a very large rectangle, but It seems just the right size to hide completely under the rear seat – leaving plenty of leg room for a 5-seater.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (2:25 pm)Not only do I agree “let’s get gen 1 on the road first” but I also look at the statement in the post “It is widely known that GM themselves will not be making profit on the first or maybe even seconds generation Volts.” and think “Can you give us some detail on that?”
The latter question “Can you give us some detail…” is a term of art used in professional accounting. It means basically that someone has made a statement that the professional accountant is having a hard time believing, but rather than simply say “I don’t believe it” she asks for the detailed numbers underneath the summary. So gm’s “loss on the Volt” might be true in some sense, especially if they are putting everything except the kitchen sink into the expense side, but we need some detail to understand and be convinced. Until then ….
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Aug 16th, 2009 (2:31 pm)It was a rental, so I didn’t have access to the manual.
Joe, it was not a put down of GM. It was simply reporting what I thought was a piece of junk. The avg MPG was 25.1 and that included many many miles of coasting.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (2:35 pm)DonC asks “As for the WSJ, what is up with their reporting about cars?”
—————-
There may be a couple of things. The main one is that the WSJ is a financial paper at its core, so they tend to judge autos by the likely profitability, rather than, say, fun to drive. They do not see the Volt as nearly as likely to be as profitable as compared to an ICE car that costs less to build but has more focus on greater gas mileage.
The other thing that affects WSJ reporting on cars is that the WSJ is by its nature skeptical on everything. It produces some great stories because of that. But that skeptcism does mean that the WSJ car reporter tends not to be the kind of go-with-the-pack great-new-car type of gearhead that writes most other auto reporting. He’s going to go to the Volt demo doubting that it is really any better than the Cruze, profit wise, not elated that he gets to be first to ride in a Volt.
So if you are convinced that the Volt (or whatever) is a great new car, it is good to read the WSJ and find out why not. But you don’t want the WSJ to be your only source of information on cars — there is after all a place for enthusiasm too (smile).
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+3
Aug 16th, 2009 (2:38 pm)Biodieseljeep says “Why not sell it now?”
————————
Good question. If things don’t go well, now is the best time. Conversely, if you believe in Voltec and you are right, later on is going to be better. My guess is that gm has not yet received an attractive offer — companies with big money would rather wait and see how the customers respond.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (2:41 pm)I’m looking at the total battery size (in terms of kwh) – not calculating “usable” kwh.
The cost that has been associated with Volt is $8K for the 16kwh pack. Nissan’s 24kwh is in the same price range.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (2:43 pm)Herm says — “Anyone notice how thick those yellow cables are?”
—————————————
Probably a substantial thickness is insulation rather than conductor. A big concern has to be how the cables will stand up to the weather over time.
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-7
Aug 16th, 2009 (2:45 pm)You may have only spent a billion dollars on Volt but that is NOT the true cost because you had to brutally rape the American Tax Payer for $80 billion just to keep your sorry asses employed.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (3:45 pm)DonC
I thought that it was 10K then 60K the second year?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (3:46 pm)I like that idea. I checked and it would cost ~$15k to install an NG 43Kw generator for my home. Having 8Kw battery (UPS) in addition would be sweet.
Also, you could defer the grid cost to nighttime rates by using battery during the day.
A Silverado mobile generator would be much nicer than a stationary one though
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Aug 16th, 2009 (3:51 pm)Like I said, there is nothing that we KNOW TO BE TRUE about Gen II (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+3
Aug 16th, 2009 (3:54 pm)Hate to say this, but, 80 billion is peanuts compared to the trillions spent annually. Even as a grant, it would be money well spent. Although, I expect that this LOAN will be paid back during the IPO.
It is better to keep UAW (yeah I said that also) and ancillary folks employed than continue the downward spiral.
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+4
Aug 16th, 2009 (4:45 pm)When GM talks about having invested a billion dollars into the Voltec technology, I wonder how much of that cost to bring the Volt to its current status was left with the “old GM” and how much was transferred to the “New GM.” If that development cost was cleared away with the bankruptcy proceedings, then why won’t GM be making a profit when the Volt gets into the showrooms?
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (4:48 pm)I’d love to see that used, BUT it’s A) Less bullet-poof than a traditional engine, B) adds another layer of complexity separate from the battery/software that may still have issues to be addressed, and C) is more expensive – for an already expensive vehicle. I wish they’d try V2G in Gen II, but that’s a personal bias. If our all electric home loses power, we’re really in a pickle. If I could power the house from the car we’d be ok – and we could even drive it out to get some more gas!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (4:55 pm)old man
I agree that a flat pack probably wouldn’t be as physically robust in a crash. Kinda like the difference between a sheet of plywood vs a log.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (5:03 pm)old man,
I’d make the same WAG guess that Nissan can go cheaper with the battery if it only has to last half as long under warranty. It also may lend some credence to the earlier speculation that GM was building in the price of a whole replacement into the Gen I Volt battery.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (5:09 pm)The “too big to fail” argument has proven false in all these cases. We should let private business take care of itself. We ended up paying the $80 Billion and they just filed bankruptcy anyways. If they would have done it right off the bat it would have saved us taxpayers all that money for the same outcome.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (5:12 pm)tom,
One thing that you are leaving unaccounted is the fact that people buy “green cars” for more reasons than cost effectiveness. Many, many of them are right here.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (5:15 pm)Rashiid,
Trust me – it did sound like a GM put down. Just providing feedback.
Peace.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (5:18 pm)DonC,
I’ll admit to be lost by this post. I mean they DO fabricate vehicles. Why cut in someone else? Or are you saying that GM should also build Fiskers, etc (in addition to OUR Volt). Call me business clueless.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (5:20 pm)Vincent,
That’s been discussed for Gen II – maaaaybe Gen II.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 16th, 2009 (5:22 pm)______________________________________________________
Licensing = Good.
GM licensing the Voltec Platform (including manufacturing Voltec components for 3rd party car makers) will result in lowering the cost of the Chevy Volt through economy of scale, increasing GM’s profits, and further supporting the Electric Car Revolution.
______________________________________________________
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Aug 16th, 2009 (6:13 pm)Jim F…if development cost was cleared away
—————–
Good point. That is one place where we need some detail.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (7:03 pm)What, exactly, does anyone think GM has to sell?
Electric drive? Old news.
Bringing a generator along in an EV to recharge? Old news.
Exactly what is the intellectual property that would be the basis for a “sale?”
Algorithms, maybe, but without a Volt on the street, there’s no way to prove the algorithms are any good. In the most recent Volt video, Weber is still talking about tuning it. If that’s the case, right now there’s not much to sell.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (7:24 pm)Tagamet;
My main reason to go all electric is not to be Green. I want the money I spend fueling my car to support my countries economy, not Iran’s and Venezuela and Saudi Arabia etc.
But I still have to justify my purchases because I have a family to support. I can’t just buy a $40,000 car when a $20,000 car will serve my family just as well.
To make an electric car make sense economically I need to plan to optimize the savings. By charging my car at work I can come home and use the same car for family activities in the evening.
What I really want is a full sized van that I can go 40 miles electric with EREV and charge it day and night, or go with the 100 mile range all electric. I do drive a lot, but in many trips.
Today is Sunday but i’ve been in and out all day, went to baseball field, to the park to hike and buy corn and fruit then just got back from Ice Cream shop. We like to go go go, it is the American dream.
Don’t want to be stuck at home all day when gas reaches $20 a gallon.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (7:56 pm)For those of us who are married the EV buying experience is a committee decision. Kid raising is somewhat associated to marriage so 2 seats will not meet family needs. And, as mentioned above, value is important.
The Volt is a very good first step toward being green, being able to go over 100 miles per trip, and being able to satisfy most needs of the family.
The EREV crossover provides the magic combination of range, family friendliness, pride of Country, long term economy, and safety.
The question, at least in my mind, is who will provide the first 300 mile family/boat hauler? Sooner with EREV (2012?), or later with a full BEV (2016?).
=D~
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Aug 16th, 2009 (8:09 pm)Both. Up to 400 or so Amps needs to be able to flow through the mains.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (8:13 pm)So true. Selling Voltec tech to another company is an ugly baby that only a this year’s profit obsessed WSJ writer (mother) could love. GM’s only path to heathly long term profitability is through innovation and design, much like Apple.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (8:20 pm)Like you say, lets get over the hurdles first, but it might be a good idea to lease Voltec engineering if it’s overwhelmingly popular with car buyers. It would add some variations to the Chevy Volt that haven’t been thought of by GM and might advance battery science faster. Otherwise the Voltec patents will run out and it will be free for all anyways.
I would guess that right now GM is rapidly developing gen II which will likely be a big advance over gen I. I guess the electric car from the 19990s was gen I and the Volt is gen II, so GM will be working on gen III. If they are they’re not saying much about any breakthroughs.
Cute kitty.
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+2
Aug 16th, 2009 (8:24 pm)Tag, you are correct. They have to get the tech right and “road hardened”, along with more calendar on the batteries before getting too extended. Even if they are profitable from day one, 10K the first year is a wise amount to produce.
Notice I wrote “if they are”. I’m not buying hook line and sinker GM’s droning about losing money at $40K. Not saying they are laughing to the bank but they were talking more about $35K up until the tax rebates came onto the picture. I was born, just not yesterday. As they creep over $37,500, they start to lose me. It better have a non-stereotypical Chevy fit and finish to justify higher pricing to me, especially since it looks like there will be other plug-in options available. I will not fall prey to GM’s marketing or crying poor.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (8:24 pm)Thanks Tagament…I didn’t know that. Sweet.
I don’t read all the posts. Good to know.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (8:29 pm)So how much do you think a Chevy compact hatchback EREV sedan can be sold for once they ramp up volume and pent up demand is satisfied? And after the $7500 tax rebates expire?
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Aug 16th, 2009 (8:40 pm)Ahh..ahhh..ahmenn! 40M or so people in hurricane exposed Southeastern US AGREE with you!!!
I hope they are planning this but I don’t believe so. It is not a development issue. Engineering V2Home for emergency backup is really not a big deal. This would not take much effort at all. I think it is more of a logistics and risk management issue for GM. How can they be sure the house-side is setup properly so that there isn’t risk to the homeowner or workers on the grid? How do they insure some neuron deficiant homeowner doesn’t fall prey to Darwin by firing it up in the garage? I believe these are the issues preventing V2Home in Gen1 and they will be there for the duration until GM wakes up and realizes this is a $10K value add for basically FREEEEE! They can charge for this and/or certify dealers to sign off on the house-side installations or something to tap into this embedded Voltec value. This isn’t even touching on non-battery intensive V2G potential. That does require other things to happen first and has little value until those things are in place.
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-1
Aug 16th, 2009 (8:41 pm)Why wouldnt you have thought about using battery technology as a separate profit center? Tesla Motors has already been down that road and I know you follow them closely.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (8:42 pm)The lights stay on for a period after the engine is off as a convenience feature. They can be turned fully off with the switch immediately. The car also features daytime running lights.
The doors lock automatically when the car is out of park as a safety feature. They keep you or your children from opening the door and falling out while the car is in motion. They also all unlock automatically when the car is placed in park as a help when your passengers are debarking.
The better question is why you drive without lights and go out the doors when it is moving.
Sounds like problem is in the driver’s seat. Mileage could suck since I’ve never driven it, but given your other goofy problems with it your assertion is a bit suspect.
Also the ignition switch locks when the car is not in the park position. Idiot.
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-1
Aug 16th, 2009 (8:49 pm)Why wouldnt GM have thought about using battery technology as a separate profit center? Tesla Motors has already been down that road and I know they have followed them closely. Admit it, the only reason for a motor in the GM-Volt is they dont have the battery technology to do it any other way. GM is still playing catch up. -Ned
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Aug 16th, 2009 (8:54 pm)Well…it will not be made as a Pontiac for much longer but it is being rebadged as a Chevy I believe.
Rashiid, I don’t know about the gas mileage or the locking ignition switch but the rest are settings or intentional safety features.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:00 pm)Proven? $80B? Before bankruptcy? Strike three, Yoourrrr OUT!
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:01 pm)I have a problem with it, well maybe a couple of problems. First off, they’ll want to sell it on eBay, and second, it’s just like computers.. State of the art for about a week. they could of done this years ago, but gas guzzlers were too important.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:10 pm)Ned,
Its not technology and GM is not playing catch up here. GM could build a bigger battery but then the car would cost almost as much as a Tesla. ICE engines are a much cheaper.
GM is selling at a point where you get the electric car but you don’t need the huge battery and this makes the car much cheaper than the TESLA. This in turn opens the car up to a much larger group of potential customers (Although It it not too tough to make a car that is more affordable and practical than the TESLA).
There is room for both in the market but GM is tapping into a wider market space. More efficient and more sporty than the Prius but not wtih the uniqueness and high cost of the TESLA.
TESLA’s market is basically limited to very rich people who can afford to buy cars like a toy.
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+1
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:17 pm)Suzuki to Sell Hybrid Car in North America in 2011, Nikkei Says
By Norie Kuboyama
Aug. 16 (Bloomberg) — Suzuki Motor Corp., a Japanese carmaker, will start selling a hybrid sedan in North America in 2011, the Nikkei newspaper reported, without saying who provided the information.
The entry by Shizuoka prefecture-based Suzuki, which has lagged behind Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. in environmentally friendly cars, may prompt price competition, the report said.
The sedan is equipped with a next-generation hybrid system jointly developed with General Motors Corp., the newspaper said.
To contact the reporter on this story: Norie Kuboyama in Tokyo at nkuboyama@bloomberg.net.
A little bit of an eye opener for some people .
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-1
Aug 16th, 2009 (9:20 pm)That is simply not a reasonable assertion. It may be more accurate to say NO ONE has the battery technology to do it in any way at all.
All current solutions are compromises to accommodate the lack of a dense enough energy carrier to replace gasoline.
Use of an ICE or other range type extender is necessary to offset the expense and weight of a battery-only solution in a mobile application.
It will be necessary until the plugin infrastructure exists for opportunity charging in all the places it is needed in the same way that the multitude of gasoline pumps permits long range travel beyond the current onboard fuel capacity.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:29 pm)Sorry to hear you’re “running out” on us Higgins, . . . what a drag.
I’d like to train for a marathon someday, but I can’t find my running shoes.
I think they might be buried under a bunch of pizza boxes in the garage — behind my dusty bicycles – — beside the ski boat with the dead battery – — right next to the dirt bike that’s got two flat tires and one varnished carburetor . . ..
…
…… ..
…
ok. I have GOT to quit spending so much time on the internet.
anyway,… always enjoy your posts!
Let us know when you’re published. Maybe I can drive down to a Houston Barnes & Noble for the book signing.
Cheerio, LWessonhiggins
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:39 pm)Tagamet says: I’d love that too, but lets get Gen I on the road first!
———————————-
As I’ve said many times before, development works like a pipeline. By the time they get to pre-production (IVER) runs, the vast majority of the design is complete, and many of the Volt Gen1 developers have moved onto other projects.
If we want to see GM shipping other EREVs by 2013 model year, including the Gen2 Volt, GM will probably have to start working on those projects now.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:43 pm)Right.
I still think that GM will make money on each Volt sold initially, but it will be quite a while before that covers their NRE costs.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (9:53 pm)This comes from EVWorld.com
Here is the link
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=21583
Suzuki to Sell Hybrid Car in North America in 2011, Nikkei Says
By Norie Kuboyama
Aug. 16 (Bloomberg) — Suzuki Motor Corp., a Japanese carmaker, will start selling a hybrid sedan in North America in 2011, the Nikkei newspaper reported, without saying who provided the information.
The entry by Shizuoka prefecture-based Suzuki, which has lagged behind Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. in environmentally friendly cars, may prompt price competition, the report said.
The sedan is equipped with a next-generation hybrid system jointly developed with General Motors Corp., the newspaper said.
To contact the reporter on this story: Norie Kuboyama in Tokyo at nkuboyama@bloomberg.net.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:26 pm)Anyone GM sells this tech to becomes a potential competitor.
Anytime you have a technological edge, you do the utmost to keep it.
I mean jeez guys, this is Basic Business 101 here.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (10:47 pm)If you own the means for making a drivetrain you could sell a portion of that capacity to companies like Fisker.
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:14 pm)At $40K very rich people are the same market for the Volt. And the Tesla and Volt are not that far off with the Tesla S projected price of $49.9k
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:17 pm)The final prices remain to be seen. But it seems clear the Model S will have a $10K premium or more depending on the range.
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-3
Aug 16th, 2009 (11:21 pm)Your argument for the fifth seat in a Volt makes about as much sense as adding two doors to a Camero or Mustang because you have two children and they each need their own doors .
Take note ;
The Volt is a four door four person car , if you want to have more seating room look elsewhere and stop crying about it here .
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Aug 16th, 2009 (11:21 pm)NGMCO will not lose money on the Volt.
For one it is an image booster. What is this worth in overall sales? Second, it takes pressure off the tougher CAFE standards. The high mpg rating on the Volt will offset the profitable big truck line. Future Cruze and Cruze-like vehicles will cost less to produce. The competition will sell less cars. NGMCO will be viewed as “a leader”.
Skeptics have shared their view on the Volt. Saying the steering wheel will never get into the hands of the public. Until this happens, the benefits will not be recognized.
=D~
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+2
Aug 16th, 2009 (11:25 pm)Sun leaping,
LOL.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 17th, 2009 (1:01 am)Ya think? I can hear the trolls now: “But wait, I thought Japanese automakers would have nothing to do with lowly GM?” Lol.
Innovation has come from GM more often than not, they have just failed to capitalize on it.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (1:37 am)Unfortunately NASA can’t sell anything. Since it is a Government agency that operates on appropriated funds it’s not in the business of making money.
And even if it did make money the cash would go into the treasury’s pocket…not NASA so there is no incentive to make money.
As for the Voltec technology, the batteries themselves don’t cost that much to make…the billions of dollars were paid for salaries of the marching army of people that have been working on it for the past several years, as well as the factory they are building.
The actual materials and labor to assemble the battery and the Volt are minuscule, (certainly not much more if any compared to a regular car). That’s why things get cheaper over time not because of some fairy magic.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (1:49 am)Let’s say you are Tata Motors and you want an electric car and don’t want to drop a Billion to build one. You would prefer instead to buy/License the Voltec technology from GM.
Now I know that GM and Tata do share market space in India, but seriously, the infusion of cash…today could offset the potential loss of revenue downstream.
I learned a long time ago NEVER to give a manager a choice to trade future money for present money. They will take the “money now” option every time, (even if it hurts in the long run).
Twenty years from now the present managers will be long gone and no one will remember who sold the Voltec technology, meanwhile the people who sold it are retired on a private island somewhere with all the cash they made from the sale.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (4:41 am)I don’t drive automatics. I only own standard shifts.
My kids don’t fall out of the car when driving. Maybe you have stupid kids?
The ignition has a problem. Sometimes the key would work, sometimes not. I have been driving for 30 years.
The car was in park when I tried starting it.
It there any other way to start this car without the transmission being in park? I don’t think so.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (4:42 am)Thanks Tag,
I didn’t mean for it to come off that badly.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (4:46 am)As for this article, I’m mixed.
I think GM could corner the market with this technology.
Yet, they really need to make money and drive the cost down.
Perhaps licensing this technology is a good thing.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (4:57 am)Agreed. We are assuming $40K.
But an expensive price tag turns the Volt into a niche.
I hope that can be avoided eventually.
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+1
Aug 17th, 2009 (6:31 am)Nice picture of the battery install at pre production.
It’s all on track as even Dr Spock’s son is installing the pack on the right.
Looking real forward to driving one in Australia eventually …….
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Aug 17th, 2009 (6:34 am)I didn’t notice that.
You had me cracking up.
Good one.
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+1
Aug 17th, 2009 (6:38 am)The public will have their pick of at least 7 assorted highway able electric drive vehicles in 2012. Prices ranging from $25,000 to $109,000. Each having strengths and weaknesses. Could this be what the Mayan’s prophesied as “The Shift of the Ages”?
It is foretold that the completion of the Precession brings regeneration of Earth, offering awakening to all open, willing hearts. Many peoples spoke of these last days of the Great Cycle, including the: Maya, Hopi, Egyptians, Kabbalists, Essenes, Qero elders of Peru, Navajo, Cherokee, Apache, Iroquois confederacy, Dogon Tribe, and Aborigines.
=D~
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Aug 17th, 2009 (6:50 am)IDK Dave K.
A Precession would indicate a very major shift.
I think something like a Atomic war or Alien attack.
I think the shift to electric cars is too minor of an event to qualify.
However, time may tell us differently.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (7:11 am)What I’m suggesting is that you didn’t have it in park.
You can rag on GM and Pontiac for not making it clear whether you are in Park.
If you let your kids drive they don’t fall out because they are holding the steering wheel
Most of my kids have tired of fast cars and fall out of perfectly good airplanes instead. Their mother thinks it’s insane and possibly stupid. But then again my youngest daughter has just passed 30 minutes in free fall.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (8:53 am)Thank you Carcus! Don C Koz! Not going away away but I was finding myself buried a bit too much like the time I found myself neck deep in quicksand, fortunately I had one fee hand to use my trusty whip…, the muck however made a mess out of my Webley I’m afraid.
Keep in contact Lwesson@hotmail.com
Have to go!——-Higgins & Co.
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Aug 17th, 2009 (8:57 am)Thanks, ok shape as work…, life has gotten in the way of the Atlas body. The marathon puts the fear of God in me. Posted a note to you chaps down below.
Cheers! Higgins
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Aug 17th, 2009 (8:59 am)Just joshing about really selling NASA tech. Tongue in cheek mind you. My Lord, the Red Chinese!
Higgins
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