Aug 10

Are Pure Electric Car Programs Having a Negative Effect on Volt Marketing?

 

When the Volt concept was first debuted it caught the world by surprise and was cause for inspiration. Sure there had been the EV-1 and the Tesla Roadster was in prototype stage, but most of the US population was not well exposed to the idea of electric cars.

Since the Volt subsequently garnered so much attention and good will, it has undoubtedly contributed to most of the major automakers announcing their own electric car programs, and launching marketing machines to match.

Some such as Nissan with its LEAF EV are particularly promoting pure electric cars. This could affect potential Volt buyers.

As an example, I was speaking with a well-educated and knowledgeable friend who currently drives a Camry hybrid. He explained to me that he wouldn’t want a Volt because of its 40 mile range. I of course explained the virtues of the car, the ability to drive limitlessly when needed, and the ability to avoid range anxiety.

He replied, “Yes but I don’t want to use any gas at all.”

Though he has a good point, the infrastructure doesn’t exist yet to drive electric cars exclusively and the Volt is an effective solution to begin weaning the country off of oil at this time

Yet it has dawned on me that all the marketing being done by those companies who are planning pure electrics without range extenders maybe having a negative effect on perception of the Chevy Volt.

I had the chance to discuss this with GM’s Director of EVs and Hybrids, Bob Kruse.

In bringing the Volt to market, despite all these years there are still people focused on range and I wonder if the carmakers going with pure electrics are making it harder to market the Volt?
Let me give you some perspective. In battery electric vehicles we talk about range anxiety. Voltec was done to mitigate that. We were able to do that with conventional technology. 78% of the US population drives less than 40 miles per day. Competitors are talking about pure battery electrics with a hundred of miles of electric range. Pick any technology and I can assure you several things. A 200 mile battery will cost more than a 40 mile battery, a 200 mile battery will weigh more than a 40 mile battery. When you’re balancing a vehicle you want to optimize around a particular solution. So heavier vehicle needs more chassis structure, bigger brakes, etc. We say mass begets mass. We have optimized the Volt and the Volt’s battery around this 40 mile promise. That’s with the assumption that the vehicle is going to be connected to the power grid once a day. Remember the first brick cell phones? One of the things that enabled cell phones to get smaller is battery technology. These all had NiCads at the time. You charge your phone once a day. You could buy a phone that you only had to plug in once a week, but you have to carry around this brick. Would you make this trade off? First generation technology is very expensive so why would you want more battery than you are going to use once a day? Why would you want to carry around and push around more battery than you need once a day.

Could people be misled about the Volt by looking at the marketing of the other carmakers pushing pure electrics and just focusing on range. I’m wondering if GM has a mechanism to educate people?

I’ve had this conversation with lots of reporters. Its analogous to a flat screen TV. What is the diagonal? 52 inch. It replaced something with a 25 inch diagonal. So if you spent all this money on a flat screen television could you imagine only using a quarter of it and displaying a 25 inch picture on it? If you buy a 200 mile range electric vehicle and your only going to drive 40 miles a day that’s the equivalent of watching a 25 inch picture on a 52 inch TV.

Its important as we look to moving to vehicles that don’t use petroleum and with the convenience of refueling in your garage. Part of the reason our gas cars have 400 mile range tanks is that its inconvenient to go to a gas station. With a Volt you don’t have to go to the service station and many will never go because they can have their needs met by plugging in once per day.

Part of what we have to do with the Volt is we have to balance being innovative and first to market with the expense of first generation technology. Could we have put a bigger battery in the Volt? Yes. Would it have cost more? Yes. Would it have weighed more? Yes. Would it have helped 78% of the customer who drive less than 40 miles per day? No. Its very important as we regularize electric vehicles that we balance them properly. You’ve seen and driven some of the west coat start up EVs with more EV range than the Volt. You recognize what those cost. We’ve not announced the price of the Volt but there’s orders of magnitude between them. As we’re trying to regularize and make these available to larger and larger consumer groups this is a very key point.

Maybe we will be judging this wrong and people will brag ‘I have a 200 miles EV and you only have a 40 mile EV’

What if people look at it at the surface and they miss GM’s message?
This is perhaps one of the disadvantages of talking so much about this so early, but the other thing I think you will find is that the consumer is really smart. They do make trade off decisions in fuel economy and the cost of the vehicle. Look what happened to hybrid sales when gas was $4 or so a gallon versus when it was $1.50 a gallon. That’s the marketplace working.

This entry was posted on Monday, August 10th, 2009 at 6:44 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors, E-REV, Marketing. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 462


  1. 1
    jason M. Hendler

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:48 am)

    No


  2. 2
    Jim I

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:50 am)

    I think Bob Kruse is correct. At this time, most of the people have no idea how these cars are going to work. As the release date gets closer, GM will start the advertising blitz to get people up to speed.

    And once the Volt is really available in showrooms, people will be able to really understand the differences between a BEV and an E-REV.


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    nuclearboy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:55 am)

    Bob’s argument is all over the map. I think I understand the Volt and I got bored following this argument.

    I would assume that GM is getting a clear and coherent (very short) story together to sell the benefits of EREV. I don’t think Bob’s answers are ready for prime time yet.

    Drop the TV analogy. Forget about weight (not many people know or care what their car weighs). Focus on cost, convenience, total range, and gas usage vs a typical car.


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    NZDavid

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:57 am)

    I think education will be a big deal. Having said that pure EV’s are for people with multiple cars who will NEVER need to go anywhere at anytime.

    The Volt is for people, like me, who mostly can get where they want to go in EV mode, but still need the extended range that can be provided by the Volt.

    I explain the Volt to friends by saying it’s like a Prius but better because you can drive for 40 miles on battery only. I have noticed that most people are not as interested in the Voltec system as I am.

    NO Plug, NO sale
    LJGTVWOTR


  5. 5
    Gsned57

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:00 am)

    I think he was right in that this is the risk in laying your cards on the table so early. All the other car manufacturers know how you’re playing and can adjust accordingly. On the other hand, I never cared a crap for GM cars in the past and the Volt has more or less gotten me into the showroom. I think the engineering solution that the volt represents is about as perfect as you can get for today’s technology. I would be admiring any company that came along with this car. GM was first and has my attention.


  6. 6
    Jeff

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:01 am)

    The side by side pictures makes me think the caption could be…”The Volt brings the electric vehicle appearance into the mainstream”. The LEAF is so fulgy.


  7. 7
    Tagamet

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:01 am)

    He states a 400 mile range in the tank!
    And we KNOW that a ton of education needs to be done to mitigate the “40 miles and dead” misunderstandings.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  8. 8
    Radio Man

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:05 am)

    The Volt is by far the best solution right now. When recharging can take place in 30-minutes or less then all electric vehicles will be the best solution. Until that time…Go Volt!


  9. 9
    BillR

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:12 am)

    Unlike Bob, I don’t give the average consumer as much credit as he does.

    I would guess that in the first few years, a lot of different cars will sell to the early adopters; E-REV, PHEV, and BEV. The mainstream buyer will sit back and wait to see how each fares, read reviews, talk to owners, and wait for the price to come down.

    Within 2 or 3 years, a real market preference will begin to be established. So the question becomes, which type will the mainstream buyer prefer?

    I still believe BEV will be a tough sell to the mainstream folks, as it forces too many compromises (range anxiety, cold/hot weather operation limitations, expensive battery replacement).


  10. 10
    Exp_EngTech

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:17 am)

    Many years (10?) will pass before the AVERAGE CONSUMER will be able to buy a cost competitive BEV that features good range and quick charging capability.

    Until then, the market will gradually transition to the E-REV platforms.

    Currently, the only people even looking at BEV’s are early adopters with money to burn. It’s all about range anxiety and extreme costs now.


  11. 11
    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:19 am)

    This is soooo easy. GM just has to focus on the range extender. Just make a commercial with a comical sad song, showing someone stranded on the roadside with a drained electric car… in front of a gas station. Someone hands them a red gas can, and they shake their heads in exasperation. Someone stops to help them with a jumper, and they shake their heads in frustration. They are shown trying to drag an extension cord from the gas station bathroom to their electric car in the pouring rain but it’s too short. Finally, the tow truck shows up and hauls their sorry ass home.

    Extra bonus points if it’s a mom with two young kids in the back seat…


  12. 12
    David K (CT)

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:23 am)

    “Part of the reason our gas cars have 400 mile range tanks is that its inconvenient to go to a gas station.”

    I took it to mean all GM cars in general (I got excited at first too).


  13. 13
    Tagamet

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:23 am)

    I agree that the 2 to 3 year sorting out period will do some of the “education” for us (and GM). Given the limited production in the first year, they’ll almost be demo models for the general public to see and learn from the owners that they are the real deal (I hope).
    All the more important for GM to get some early models to our lunatic fringe, er I mean our enthusiasts. (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  14. 14
    Dave K.

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:24 am)

    How many of you own or have owned a PSP? Was it an ad that got you to shell out $200? Or was it a PSP owner boasting about it’s cool features?

    It’s the same with cars. I owned a Ford model which wasn’t particularly sexy or muscular. But after I had modified it, I heard comments like, “I don’t care for these but I like this one”.

    The real marketing of the Volt won’t start until people outside of GM are holding the steering wheel. And from the latest buzz, this reality is not far off.

    =D~


  15. 15
    FME III

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:24 am)

    Brilliant! I hope the marketers at GM save this for their ad campaign.


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    RamZ

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:27 am)

    Range anxiety is a real drawback. I love my 2000 Ford Ranger EV but range anxiety really makes it impractical as an only car. I had a Harley Davidson motorcycle once with a “Peanut Tank” which gave it a range of 100 miles. It drove me nuts having such a short range. I finally sold the bike.

    The E-REV utility will shine through.


  17. 17
    FME III

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:31 am)

    Are Pure Electric Car Programs Having a Negative Effect on Volt Marketing?

    In a word, Yes.

    But once both cars are out and in use, I believe the answer will be “No.” In fact, I think the pure BEV programs will suddenly put the Volt’s advantages in sharp relief, and these BEVs will actually be good for marketing the Volt.

    Why? I fully expect that the Leaf, just like the Mini-E, will not be able to deliver its 100 mi range for most drivers. And then, the Volt’s ability to go for an unlimited range will suddenly be appreciated by those who think they never want to buy gas again.


  18. 18
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:33 am)

    Dave K (CT)
    I reread it and you’re probably right. It was a generic statement. Still, the Volt is one of GM’s cars….
    It’ll be interesting how they handle the range in the tank if they are really using 230 as the mpg….
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  19. 19
    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:35 am)

    ” I have noticed that most people are not as interested in the Voltec system as I am.”
    —————————————————————————-
    Reasons:
    - Price
    - Not for sale yet (with memories of EV1 life span)

    Most people will question GM’s commitment to EREV even after the Volt is offered for sale. A silly question (but still asked) might be : If I buy a Volt, will GM be able to repossess my vehicle to crush it? Hence, GM’s openness about the development of the Volt. GM gets to make many comments that can be construed as a commitment to EREV.

    A big one…not leasing the battery pack.

    However if it becomes possible to be the ONLY owner (no leased involved) of a Volt, a question remains: Will GM sell EREV (or EV) vehicles for more than 10 years?


  20. 20
    FME III

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:36 am)

    I agree that most people can’t be bothered with the details. Letterman truly was representative when he thought that the Volt only had a 40 mile range. And you know that Nissan will play to that ignorance in its advertising.

    For these folks, the Prius analogy is useful.


  21. 21
    Tagamet

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:37 am)

    Throw in grandma on a walker and a three legged dog and it’d be perfect (lol).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  22. 22
    Joe

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:43 am)

    They are many dreamers out there who think pure electrics are the answer. I can not imagine having pure electrics on the highways without causing major traffic jams. People are people and they will forget or purposely chance in getting from point A to point B w/o enough power left in the battery. I believe situations like this could happen often enough as to make them illegal on major highways. Time will tell.


  23. 23
    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:46 am)

    Well said…

    The media will show that the practicality of the Volt outweighs the pure EV. Someone in the media needs to do a cross country trip with the LEAF and Volt ASAP…or just a family road trip vacation. :)


  24. 24
    MDDave

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:48 am)

    The one point that I think is going to be hard to communicate to the public is the advantage of a 40 mile battery with EREV over say a pure BEV with a 100 or 200 mile battery.

    A 200 mile capability and no need for gasoline sounds great until you consider that 3/4 of that very expensive battery will go unused the vast majority of the time. And as if that’s not bad enough, 200 miles is woefully inadequate for most road trips. Even if you plan a multi-day trip, 200 miles is much less than most people would want to drive in a day. And you would still need to find a plug at each stop, which isn’t always going to be easy–you would basically have to go begging for electricity.

    Frankly, I don’t know why anyone would want a 200 mile battery at this point in time. If quick charge stations become a reality and battery prices fall to 1/10 of what they are now, it might make sense, but not until then.

    So, while these may not be complicated ideas to grasp, they don’t come to most people without a little bit of explanation and thought. I bet that when most of us first contemplated buying an “electric car” the advantage of a 40 mile battery didn’t come to us immediately either. So, how does GM sell these ideas in a short catchy way?


  25. 25
    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:49 am)

    Cue the music from Nation Lampoons Vacation.

    Holiday Roooaaaaaad……


  26. 26
    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:02 am)

    Yup. And what makes it worse is that it takes hours to recharge a stranded BEV (after towing it somewhere) but only 5 minutes to refuel a gas car with a portable 5-gallon jug on the side of the road.


  27. 27
    Tim

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:03 am)

    (click to show comment)


  28. 28
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:04 am)

    I wonder how the fielding of 5000 all electric Nissons and under a thousand EREV/hybrids will effect this issue. Seems like there is a message there. I know what *I* think it is, but comments”
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  29. 29
    GM Volt Fan

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:07 am)

    One thing to think about with “pure EVs” coming out in the next 5-10 years is IF the scientists and engineers come up with a super battery that can recharge a battery back to full capacity in maybe 10 minutes. The range anxiety for pure EVs isn’t so bad if you can recharge it quickly.

    Then, if the range is still relatively low, the problem becomes CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE if you want to go on longer trips … like driving around town on a shopping spree to 2-3 regional malls or something.

    I think once pure EVs can quick charge in 10 minutes to 150+ mile capacity and they are relatively lightweight and (most importantly) AFFORDABLE ….. THEN they become serious alternatives to ER-EVs like the Volt. We’ll just have to “get our popcorn ready” like T.O. says, sit back and see how the battery technology evolves.

    The future for batteries and other “energy storage devices” looks pretty bright to me. I hope to see a LOT of stories with headlines like this one. “Battery prices cut in half” … “Battery weight cut by 60%” … etc. These will be the headlines we should get excited about.

    http://www.freep.com/article/20090808/BUSINESS01/908080345/Mass-production-expected-to-lower-battery-costs–weight

    “If you think about lithium-ion” batteries, “most people don’t know that only 25% of the weight is actually storing energy,” said Ric Fulop, founder and president of A123 Systems Inc., a battery supplier. “I think there is significant room for improvement to take that from 25% to 50% over the next decade … and costs should come down by more than half.”


  30. 30
    nasaman

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:08 am)

    I disagree ….and well-designed hybrids will inevitably have an even larger impact on Volt marketing!

    From the topic intro above…..

    Lyle: “….I was speaking with a well-educated and knowledgeable friend who currently drives a Camry hybrid. He explained to me that he wouldn’t want a Volt because of its 40 mile range.”

    Kruse: “Maybe we will be judging this wrong and people will brag ‘I have a 200 miles EV and you only have a 40 mile EV’.”

    Other car makers have had a LONG time to study the marketing of electrified vehicles since the Volt was announced. An early-entry example of this is the Fusion/Milan twin hybrids for 2010 from Ford, who are exploiting their excellent range of >700 miles, which will clearly and unmistakeably hurt Volt sales!!!

    ATTN GM: Lutz, Kruse, Farah, et al: I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again…..

    GM should initiate an emergency design/manufacturing task to increase the Volt’s range to ~750 miles for extended trip travel!

    This could be done, for example, as follows: 1) Assume a standard gas tank size of 6 gallons is used now; 2) Find space for an “extended trip” tank of 9 gallons. This spare tank could be filled from a separate filler line and be “Y-connected” into the fuel line to the engine thru a normally-closed solenoid valve the driver could open when needed by pressing a button on the dash. Resulting range: 40 mi (EV mode) + (15 gals x 50 mpg ER mode) = 790miles.

    And GM, if you don’t do something to get the Volt’s total range up to something like this, you’ll be fighting an unwinnable marketing battle with the Fusion/Milan hybrids & their successor models as well other maker’s future hybrids designed to compete with them!


  31. 31
    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:19 am)

    The “Wagon Queen Family Truckster” can be part of the road test too.

    Some quotes from the movie for your enjoyment…it brings up the question of Volt or LEAF availability in the 1st model year as another reason for less interest in the Volt.

    Clark: Ed, this is not the car I ordered. I distinctly ordered the Antartic Blue Super Sports Wagon with C.B. and optional rally fun pack.
    Car Salesman: You didn’t order the Metallic Pea?

    Car Salesman: I know what must have happened. It didn’t come in. Now I can get you the Sports Wagon; the only problem is that it may take six weeks. I owe it to myself to tell you that if you’re taking the whole tribe cross-country, the Wagon Queen Family Truckster is the way to go. You think you hate it now, but just wait until you drive it.


  32. 32
    TALLPALL

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:22 am)

    This is precisely the reason we have dealers with showrooms and Salesmen. The Marketing will get people into the showroom, the job of education really belongs to the salesman. If you have a good enough product with value then you can sell it.

    ER-EV should be an easy enough sell.. It just makes sense….

    At least for the next 10 years until fast chargers are in abundance..


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    jdenn

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:28 am)

    Do you mean “Fugly”?


  34. 34
    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:33 am)

    Sorry, but I have a deep and abiding lack of faith in humanity.

    Any plan which depends upon the intelligence and sense of the American Public for success is doomed.

    Progressive-Fascists have not killed America, just like the buzzards haven’t killed that road-kill ‘possum they’re eating.

    Sorry to be so blunt, but my experience is that the sheep herders usually win.

    (I’ll save someone a reply) So what am I doing here?

    Some things you work for and believe in despite your ‘better’ judgment — because it’s a worthy effort in it’s own right. And you could be wrong, just this once.


  35. 35
    Dan Petit

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:43 am)

    jason M. Hendler at 6:48am

    I really agree “no” is the answer for us on the WL.

    There was a phrase my Biology teacher frequently used to say:
    “The environment selects”.

    While cost and cost recovery are a primary issue, building out a public knowledge base in having the public understand what they are potentially going to buy is of utmost importance to justify cost as well as to fulfill cost recovery.

    Therefore, “The environment selects” all different situations for not only success, but more so, it selects for failure far more often than most people know in these times of marketing “spin”.

    For many of us, if we are able to somehow get a Volt, it represents an environmental philosophy to repair the environment. It seems to me that marketing is usually at direct opposition to environment, since it promotes the mass extraction of resources out of the earth, producing CO2.
    But the environment is certainly not at all “technically-purist”,
    from the viewpoint that Lyle’s well-educated friend “does not want to use any gasoline at all”. (Though highly meritorious at first thought, that must be weighted against, (to use for example), my 8 or so estimated Volt gallons of gas per month/160 pounds CO2 instead of 80 or so gallons of gas per month/1,600 pounds of CO2 per month for ICE, as in my case)……VOLTec “off the shelf” reliability,

    as compared with very high likely (IMTO) financial risks of BEV’s
    *******************************************************
    that do not have the 10year/150,000 battery warranty.
    *******************************************************
    I think replacement BEV batteries will directly and indirectly cost more carbon, and LOTS more money, than the 8 Volt gallons per month, Removal and Replacement infrastructures, etc.

    “The environment selects”.
    Whoever selects BEV’s had just better only select one that
    has the same packaged protections as GM.
    Otherwise, those who sincerely believe that they are well-informed technologically are in for serious potential hits to their finances, as the marketing departments of BEV’s “spin” all manner of distractions to prevent BEV buyers from “holding their toes to the fire”, when a gently and “properly(?)” used BEV has a battery degradation situation whereby the BEV “fitness of merchantability” (which is a grossly ill-defined “standard” as of now), fails. (“Proper-use” had better be well-defined, AND TAUGHT, by an OEM, or, prevailing public understandings of “fitness of merchantability” will prevail against them somehow later on.)

    BEV buyers will not buy Volts of course. That’s certainly ok.

    “The environment selects” for survival those things that perform the most efficient usage of it, by those who are most “overall savvy” in the many logical (even up to the “last minute” covariables) by which they select.


  36. 36
    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:54 am)

    Batteries are perfectly fine now in terms of durability and cost, but of course it will only get better.

    Infrastructure is just charging plugs in every parking space, nothing too really complicated and we can begin this by changing construction codes to make sure power is available at every parking spot.. just like the amount of parking area, grade, drainage and so on is specified today in the zoning of many communities. Entrepreneurs desiring to make a quick buck will electrify the parking lots across the USA in short order.

    What do I call infrastructure?.. not just a charging plug in every parking space, that is un-stoppable, but It would be neat if every spot had a below-the-ground inductive charging pad.. just drive up to the mall and your car starts charging automatically when you park.


  37. 37
    W B Kerr

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:59 am)

    Sorry that you think “intelligent people” only watch FNC and CNN, but I happen to think that that I do not fit your idea of intelligent. Happen to be a 72 year old retired aero engineer that cut my teeth after graduating cum laude from a top engineering school , developing the SR-71 (Blackbird) engine.
    Hope you have done as many things to get us off our “oil dependence” as I have. 5000 watt PV system on our residence, drive 30 mpg auto’s, a 20 mpg small diesel powered RV coach.

    Certainly I ,understand the Volt EREV compared to the EV cars and will make a decision on which to buy as soon as there are some production data and choices of production models.

    I watch FNC and CBS to see both sides and make my on decisions on which biased reporter to believe. Hope you have open enough mind not to be herded in with the hard (always) right crowd.


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    Ray

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:01 am)

    You got that right. I have had my 2010 Fusion Hybrid for almost 3 weeks now… I have travelled 1800 KMS.. and have filled up twice… the first time was when I picked the car up ( it only had a 1/4 tank full) and the 2nd time was 4 days ago.. and the gauge (upper right corner of the dash) still says I have 455 KMS LEFT TILL EMPTY.
    I have had great success in using the throttle and brakes on this car to keep the car in it’s EV (battery mode) for 5 – 7 kms at a time… the last instance I left my local 711 and drove home (about 5 KMS and slightly downhill most of the way) and I averaged 2.1 KM/100 KMS.. That’s 108 MPG Canadian…You truely have to drive this car to appreciate the milage it is capable of. ! And this is with the car not even “broken in” yet… On most new vehicles that takes about 10 – 16000 KMS…


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    CDAVIS

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:05 am)

    ______________________________________________________
    Defend EREV vs. BEV
    or offer Both.
    Which move is smarter for GM?

    Irrespective of the merits of an EREV vs. BEV, GM not offering a BEV version of the Volt (at a time when several major car manufacturers will be offering BEVs) will put GM in the position of having to constantly defend the merits of EREV vs. BEV.

    Then years from now when GM does offer a BEV version of the Volt (which it’s just a matter of time), it will be perceived that GM was from the very beginning wrong about it’s stance of being “anti-BEV” and that GM decided to reluctantly join the BEV club…perception is reality. If GM allows it to play out this way, GM will ironically voluntarily surrender its current position as being a major market leader in the Electric Car Revolution…perception is reality.

    Bottom Line: GM has the option of spending marketing bandwidth (a finite commodity) defending why an EREV is better than a BEV or spending that finite marketing bandwidth promoting a BEV Volt.

    That is why I hope 230 = 230 BEV Volt.

    A 230mile BEV VOLT would also make Lutz happy…he from day one wanted a BEV Volt…
    ______________________________________________________


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    kdawg

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:07 am)

    I think the market will decide. It may take a few years (2 or 3), but once the juice is loose, and everyone can truely compare all the different options, i think the EREV is going to easily beat the pure BEV.

    What will accelerate this ofcourse is just getting the cars out there and letting the watercooler conversations happen.


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    Schmeltz

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:08 am)

    It seems to me that it is really too early to determine what the actual marketing hurdles will be with the Volt or the Pure BEV’s out there. And maybe, this is a better question to ask when the Volt and other pure BEV’s are actually being sold say 5 years down the road. I don’t really think GM will have that difficult of a problem selling people on the virtues of their EREV platform regardless. The Volt appeals to a much wider swath of people than the best, pure Ev’s with the longest ranges available. I wonder also if word of mouth about little range anxiety horror stories will do the marketing work for the EREV idea? Does everyone remember Lyle’s experience with range anxiety and the Mini EV? That experience alone will probably make him appreciate the security of the EREV all the more. You can’t plan for things like a power outage to happen. Now scale that to a city full of pure BEV’s, say even a relatively small quantity of 10,000 EV’s needing a charge and having no power available. Think about it…10,000 people who can go nowhere. Now that would be a mess! This is where an EREV is invaluable. Even in a situation that is far, far less dramatic like “Oh crap, I forgot to plug-in the darn EV last night!!!”, at least you could get where you need to go for that day with an EREV. I’m probably preaching to the choir but I agree with Kruse that most people should be able to understand the limitations of a prue BEV and buy what’s most appropriate for them.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:09 am)

    Argh, I meant “Comments???”
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:10 am)

    You started off asking good questions, until you suggested that cable news (and Fox News in particular) has anything to do with intelligence.

    -1, unnecessary partisan politics.


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    Jim in PA

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:12 am)

    Maybe. Unless he meant is so f**ing bulgy. It is kind of squat.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:12 am)

    Fulgy: noun, 1. The deliberate uglification in a design for the purpose of branding, in the belief that branding is more powerful than aesthetics: “That new Nissan LEAF is just fulgy.”

    see also: fugly, ugly, nissan

    citation needed


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    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:15 am)

    It’s great to see a numbers-based post from an actual hybrid driver!


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    old man

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:15 am)

    I think BEV will take some sales away from E-REV [at first] Then that range factor will hit home. There will be stories of power outages, I forgot, I couldn’t get to see mom at the hospital till the next day because I had to charge the &%))_&^$#@ car.

    In addition to this thought, I believe the battery guarntee will Not be ten years with a BEV program.

    I agree with others that the add campaign shoud focus on the extended range feature of e-rev.. The ending of said adds might say something like ” The Volt will get you there no matter where—- there is”


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:16 am)

    Very cold and very hot climates will follow after another 10 years.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:20 am)

    I don’t think having an extra tank is a good idea, assuming there is enough space to do so. It would require too much unnecessary hardware (another tank, a normally closed electric valve with a manual bypass, an extra inlet for filling up, hoses, larger brakes etc). A larger tank might be a better idea, space permitting. Keep in mind, with the extra weight, the Volt might not get the 40 miles as promised by GM. For that reason, GM could not advertise the Volt with 40 miles of battery driving. I guess, putting an extra tank is not as simple as adding a tank and a electric valve.


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    nasaman

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:20 am)

    ….and the rave reviews the Fusion/Milan 2010 hybrids have been getting (as well as their touted 700 mile range) certainly aren’t hurting sales, either ….right?


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:22 am)

    The one point that I think is going to be hard to communicate to the public is the advantage of a 40 mile battery with EREV over say a pure BEV with a 100 or 200 mile battery.

    Given the number of cars they’re planning to produce in the beginning, I bet they’ll sell out to entheusiasts before they need to do any mass education.

    For the 2nd-generation Volt, though, this might be a big issue.

    There’s probably plenty of time to get these cars out into the wild before that has to happen. Marketing is nothing, until the product backs it up.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:25 am)

    Maybe one of you engineers out there can answer this question. If I only have a ten mile round trip communte and I fully charge my 40 MPC battery, is it better to recharge every night even though I don’t have to in order to keep my battery full or should I run my battery down lower and in that case have fewer charge cycles? Would doing this extend my Lithium Ion battery? I ask this as I’ve seen many comments talking about the battery losing charge after so many charge/discharge cycles. In this case it would seem smart to charge every four days (for example) to have fewer charge/discharge cycles and thus extend the batter life. Anyone know this answer?


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:26 am)

    Yeah, I’m anxious to hear what the “to do” will be about tomorrow. It’s GOT to be “big”. Maybe a BEV version, maybe the mpg, who knows. I suspect the latter is more likely, simply because a BEV Volt would in effect be competing with itself. Tough to promote/educate re the “down-sides” of all electric when you’re fielding one. Also the govt is fielding 5000 BEV’s and less than a 1000 Erev/hybrids. I think they’d have advertised funding for more BEV’s from GM if they were about to release one.
    As Lyle says, “stay tuned!”
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:26 am)

    Then show a Volt sail by, and somehow show the transition from Electric gasoline.


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    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:27 am)

    offer the genset as an option in the Gen IV Volt and let the customer decide.


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    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:30 am)

    I think you’re underestimating the ability of an average driver to coast to the shoulder.

    I’ve done this dozens of times in the beat-up old gasoline cars that I used to drive when I was in and just out of college… Never caused a traffic jam, neither.

    It’s a little premature to consider banning electric cars that can keep up with highway traffic from the highways.


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    nasaman

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:31 am)

    Remember that a gallon of gas weighs about 6.2 lbs, so another 9 gals (IF YOU FILLED THE TANK) would weigh under 60 lbs. You’re right that adding another tank, etc might not be the best way to get up to 15 gals ….but increasing the Volt’s presummed 6 gal tank to a more normal-sized 15 gals would add insignificant tank weight.

    /also remember that aerodynamic drag has a much greater effect on the Volt’s EV (and ER) range than weight!


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    Mike_FL

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:34 am)

    I don’t see myself owning a pure electric until battery cost and charging time are significantly improved. Until then I believe pure EV will be a money pit. On the other side of that the money pit may be necessary to brute force the advances in things like battery cost and charging time.


  59. 59
    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:35 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:38 am)

    You guys would get really excited if he had said 400 miles AND a 2 gallon gas tank :)


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:39 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:40 am)

    No, this is GM-VOLT. Anti Democrat/Leftist/Progressive comments are NECESSARY politics. Anything in the other direction are UNNECESSARY.

    On other words, IOKIYAR.

    See other examples like “Politics stops at the water’s edge” where it’s unacceptable to criticize the President when the President is overseas… When the President is Republican. Now that we haz a commie muslim not-born-in-America fascist ACORN concentration death-camp organizer, it’s a Republican duty to publicly tell our allies and trading partners to not trust Barry Hussein.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:40 am)

    I agree that the three most important bullet points for Volt marketing need to be: no range anxiety, no range anxiety, no range anxiety. I’m not sure I’d go with your commercial — too negative. Maybe something like “the only electric car you can drive anywhere” or something. (Obviously I’m not an ad guy).

    In any event, the answers Bob Kruse gave above were terrible. Way too long and too involved. For example, I totally understand what he’s saying about battery usage but the average person would just say: “Huh”. And talking about manufacturing costs is always a loser. Consumers care about the purchase price, period. They couldn’t care less about your costs. (In his defense, Bob Kruse was answering Lyle’s questions so he wasn’t thinking of giving technical answers rather than marketing material.)

    Finally, I’m not sure the problem is marketing against BEVs. How many of these will there be and what percentage of the market will they be? Ninety-nine percent of drivers in the market for a car will be thinking about a conventional ICE vehicle, and the Volt has the ability to capture everyone of these sales (if they make enough of course). BEVs just don’t have that opportunity. In this regard, if the Volt does have the 230 mpg number, GM should just use it, use it, and use it some more. It should be the highest mpg number for many years, and, as a single (mis)understood number, it can be used effectively together with the lack of range anxiety — “at 230 mpg it gets far and away the best mileage of any car in the world that can go anywhere”. (Lame I know but like I said I’m no ad guy).


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    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:41 am)

    A 230 mile BEV is another incentive for more development of a “better battery”…so I’m all for it if it can make a profit. However it is still impractical for most people. Until a battery could be charged in 10 minutes or less without degrading the life of the battery, BEVs are for the enthusiasts.

    A 100 mile BEV with very fast charging capability (less than 10 minutes) is significantly better than a 230 mile BEV with a 8 hour charge time for most applications.

    These BEV’s better be designed for easy towing. :) A better term than range anxiety is “Charge Time Anxiety” (CTA).


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    Schmeltz

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:41 am)

    Just wanted to add something our Insurance guy once said, “You never really appreciate insurance until you need it.” So true. The EREV is like good insurance.


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    DonC

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:43 am)

    Word of mouth is mathematically not workable (it dies out). But your point is well taken. PR needs to be a big part of the launch. We’ll see how our friend Bob Lutz handles this.


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    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:48 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Jason M. Hendler

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:49 am)

    I made my first answer brief, because I love, love, LOVE to be first.

    I have no doubt that GM’s first year’s production will be sold out. Once that first year’s fleet is traveling ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, because it is not range limited, then more people will understand how the vehicle works. I expect some rental companies will offer them, allowing people to “test drive” the vehicles, and appreciate the performance / efficiency.


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    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:51 am)

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    DonC

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:59 am)

    At this point I think anything EV helps everything EV. IOW awareness is so low that every article or story helps all manufacturers in the space. Nissan and GM together plan on making about 200,000 vehicles available in NA. That’s not a huge number given that the market for new vehicles should be around 13,000,000 total sales.

    Plus early adopters frequently get multiple copies. They often don’t get just one. For example, I know a guy who has a Tesla that wants to buy a Volt. I can see getting both a LEAF and a Volt.

    Now at some point there will be a big winner. I believe that will be EREV. Others might think it will be BEVs. But to get to the point where you can separate winning from losing EV technologies you have to have a lot of EVs on the road, and in accomplishing that every EV — regardless of any stripe — counts.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:02 am)

    Orgasmic pops to mind (lol)
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    RickW

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:08 am)

    Don’t forget that you can buy TWO(2) Nissan LEAFs for the price of one Volt. That could translate into 200 mile daily range ! woot.


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    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:09 am)

    Oh Tim Tim Tim…. You MUST watch Fox News. Your entire discussion (rant?) on news viewership is an exercise in sleight of hand. By stressing the viewership stats of “cable news” you are obviously hoping that nobody catches the glaring ommission of where most people get their TV news; the big three networks. Anyone who has a TV knows there is no real difference between cable and network TV anymore in terms of access, etc., and that any REAL news stats have to include the prime time numbers of the big three networks:

    NBC Nightly News: 7,800,000
    ABC World News: 6,800,000
    CBS Evening News: 5,600,000
    FNC: 3,055,000

    That squeak you just heard was Fox News (and all other cable news shows) being squashed under the foot of network news. Now THAT’S a comprehensive picture of the market deciding.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:11 am)

    You are confusing the mean “average” with the mode. If I drive 20 miles Monday thru Friday and then drive 110 on Saturday and 105 on Sunday then my mean is 45 miles per day. At which using your logic you would conclude that a Volt is worthless to me as it wouldn’t get me to where I need to be with out using gas, where as the LEAF would have twice the daily range I need. Obviously that is not true. The mode (most occuring number) is only 20 miles. I could do that daily with either vehicle with no gas. But on the weekends only the Volt would complete my trip without leaving me stranded. The LEAF would come up short both days.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:16 am)

    The one tank is the way to go. I suppose by making the tank from a 6 gal to a 15 gal tank would not change the 40 mile range significantly. Yes, it would be great to travel 750 miles on a tankful!!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:20 am)

    It is obvious to me and many other that the Volt is interim technology on the way to full electrics. Hopefully Volt owners will become addicted to electric propulsion that their next vehicle will be a pure electric. True believers of course will opt for a pure electric from the start. This is just how it is.


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    Mark M

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:26 am)

    ” the infrastructure doesn’t exist yet to drive electric cars exclusively”

    Really??? I have a power plug in my garage. Everywhere I need to drive is within about 20 miles of my house. I’d say the infrastructure is definitely in place for me to drive an electric car exclusively.


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    texas

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:29 am)

    I’m not worried that the BEV will take over and kill any chance for the Volt. For one, a BEV without quick-charge infrastructure in place is simply not as convenient as a standard car, not to mention it’s more expensive. Thus, the market will be tiny.

    The Volt gives people that green feel and let’s them power up in a non-OPEC way and yet the concept is as convenient as a normal car. Thus, the market will be bigger. However, the high cost will of course reduce the market substantially. Should still be much bigger than for a pure BEV with no infrastructure.

    Let’s face it. Gas in America right now is very cheap. Most people have forgotten about the high gas prices of last summer. If they didn’t, they are blaming the speculators or some bank related nonsense. They have no knowledge of global petroleum production or limits. None at all and the U.S. media and government are not helping one bit. Don’t want to scare the natives.

    We still have the same reasons why we are not driving EVs today as we had before. The batteries suck. Compared to black gold they are too heavy, too expensive, don’t last long and take hours to fill up. Why would people switch? To be greener? Yeah, maybe a few tree huggers.

    I don’t agree with the analogy as to why people would not want a 200 mile EV range. Look at cars today. They have 400 mile range and you don’t ever hear of someone saying, “I’m not going to fill up the tank because why would I want to lug around all that heavy fuel.” Do you?

    If we had a good, high-density power storage device like what EEstor is hoping to spring on the world then we would all love to have 300 miles of EV range. Currently, 300 miles of EV range weighs about as much as the car and costs even more! It’s not the range but the shear weakness of the energy storage technology.

    So, the Volt is a great start towards electrification. It has all the convenience and green cool. It will be affordable to enough Americans (for now) and will give people an alternative energy vehicle that they can buy from a trusted company. If the price of oil shoots up by late 2010 then the Volt is going to sell like hot cakes. If oil drops back to $40 and we slip more into recession then not many people are going to be buying any kind of new car.

    One thing for sure, the SUV and ego truck are dead (RIP). The only way forward is electrification. GM should have both the Voltec and a pure EV model ready to compete against the many new models that are going to be available from their competition.

    Who really knows when the batteries will get better. Could be 10 years from now or the year of the Volt. GM needs to be ready with all of the electrification technology. Controllers, battery management systems, battery and interior cooling and heating solutions, electric brakes and steering systems, very energy efficient accessories, LED lighting, charging systems, EV maintenance experience, etc. ready for full production.

    The electrification transition could be snail pace or moon race. Unless there’s some other super technology that comes along, electrification is the direction we are going. GM needs to be fully prepared to own the market.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:30 am)

    One thing that Tesla has shown is that a startup company can come on the scene and in a short time make a pure BEV, that is PROFITABLE. Clearly that shows there is a market for these vehicles, even at staggering 100K prices. With all these car makers in bankruptcy and shedding money every day, this shows EV technology is not only viable in the real world, but as a business model.

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/07/technology/tesla_profitability/?postversion=2009080716


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:32 am)

    Great definition…examples would be the Volkswagon Beetle and Toyota Prius. It remains to be seen if the LEAF can be “fugly”, but popular. Somehow I doubt it…

    For all the Prius fans (I’m a fan too…just not an owner). If the Prius was not a hybrid, would you still have bought it? The Beetle claim to fame was/is…inexpensive to buy, operate, and maintain. And just looked different…hence the cult following. The 2010 Prius has become less fugly…and maybe fugly is too strong of a word for it.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:33 am)

    Roll ad ,
    Two men sipping their morning coffee (split screen ) Reading the paper , both men walking out of the kitchen into the garge and unpluging their GM Volt & Nissan Leaf both men narrowly avoiding running over paper boy and the kid’s toys in the drive way , At bottem of screen miles traveled starts clicking up at the 40 mile mark( the screen on the volt side cuts away to show the ICE gen cuting in) (The Leaf screen shows a pic of the LCD power level) pic comes back to both drivers and miles traveled quickly jumps up to 100 – 150 (pic of Leaf LCD power EMPTY) . Split screen ends with a tow truck loading up the leaf as the Volt drives by with the Leaf driver shaking his head !!!!!! GM VOLT never stops moving, Until you want to stop moving !!!!


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    texas

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:34 am)

    Amen!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:35 am)

    It will definitely hurt the Volts sales.

    When the average consumer looking at the specs of 2 cars sees:

    Volt: 40 miles electric range for $40K+
    Leaf: 100 miles electric range for $25+

    Doesn’t take a marketing wiz to see which car the non-techincal general public will lean towards.


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    jeffhre

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:42 am)

    A prius analogy would be good for people that drive or considered buying a Prius, a hybrid or other electric. For most others with all the publicity surrounding these types of cars recently, it would take a lot to get them interested.

    I would go so far as to say anyone that hasn’t thought about buying one of these electrified vehicles yet, has a demonstrated lack of interest. Who knows what would possibly change that ( (six dollar a gallon gas)?


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    texas

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:43 am)

    lol. Good! Yes, the new Nissan Leaf does look like a catfish. I couldn’t believe it! I was excited to see what it was going to look like and want the BEV to succeed. Unfortunately, I feel it will fail because of it’s looks more than for it’s technology. I think they need to hire a new lead (leaf) designer.

    Still, I want Nissan to push forward with their electrification plans. Just change the design a bit. What were they thinking? Ugh.


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    Schmeltz

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:43 am)

    Agreed. Word of mouth often holds more weight with people than even the best marketing can accomplish. This works both ways of course. They have to get the Volt right the first time or there won’t be a second chance at this.

    No pressure. LOL


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    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:46 am)

    The question is: will all electric cars be able to freely coast, or will the wheel coupling to the motor (so handy for regenerative braking) prevent them from doing it? I am sure they will have a “neutral” gear setting that would let them coast, but it won’t be on during normal driving, and I bet 99% of people in the situation don’t think of switching to it as they lurch to a motor-assisted stop in the middle of the road.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:47 am)

    Announcer:

    “What happens when your battery-electric car runs out of electricity:”

    Montage which includes pushing the car out of a busy intersection as horns blare, sitting on the side of the road as it rains (cut to inside with screaming kids and unhappy wife), tow truck arriving.

    “What happens when the Chevrolet Volt runs out of electricity:”

    Close up of instrument panel with indicator lighting up to show that range extender has started. Cut to satisfied driver, cut to Volt continuing down the road.

    “Chevy Volt: It keeps moving until you want it to stop moving.”

    (I liked that suggestion as an ad-line jeff j)


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    old man

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:48 am)

    E-REV has got to be a marketing/advertising persons dream come true. The vast majority of buyers will be consumers who suffer from range anxiety to one degree or another. Your adds can be a cold snowy night [how many miles will the heater use?], a trip during a heavy rain, [how many miles will the wipers use?] A hot muggy day in Fl. [Again how many miles will the air conditioning use?]
    Then we could just take the Volt and 3+ BEV and a road trip and use computer graphics on a map to show where each one died. At the end of each add or during the add a voice would say, ” I wonder if there is a charging station any wheres near here?”


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    Jeff

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:48 am)

    The EREV is like good insurance.
    ——————————————-
    Another great comment. A twist…make sure you get roadside assistance insurance with a BEV. The chances of needing a tow dramatically increases…if not you, a family member or friend that borrows the vehicle will need the tow.

    Heck when fast charging batteries come on the market…tow trucks may have electrical generators installed so no tow is necessary.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:49 am)

    ” If you buy a 200 mile range electric vehicle and your only going to drive 40 miles a day that’s the equivalent of watching a 25 inch picture on a 52 inch TV.”

    That’s a poor analogy.
    It would be more like,

    “with a 200 mile range electric vehicle and you’re only driving 40 miles a day, that’s like watching HBO 4 to 5 times longer before paying the cable bill…”


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    Phoney Baloney

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:51 am)

    Like a Volt will never fail. Get real you old geezer. I will send you an email of the first Dead Volt in the middle of the road. Rest assured it will happen. Give me a physical break already. You need to tone down your rhetoric.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:52 am)

    Funny but do we want to make people fearful of EVs? GM is likely to have an EV model of their own soon. Perhaps we should just concentrate on the freedom, the clean, green, home-grown power, new technology feel.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:52 am)

    Has anybody on the board seen anything about “230″ except in the post here on Saturday? I haven’t. Speaking of PR.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:55 am)

    How could you be sure that banning electrics won’t myopically include the Volt, for which it wouldn’t make sense (remember, when we talk about bans, we’re talking about the intervention of government).


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    Phoney Baloney

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:56 am)

    You got that right. Maximum Bob wanted to make a Tesla killer but the GM Board (who have been rightly fired) refused support. So what we have as a result is a severely compromised Volt design. NOT what Mr. Lutz dreamed of at all.


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    texas

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:56 am)

    Yes! Now this is a very positive message. Do the EV thing then go visit grandma or go on the family vacation.

    Chevy Volt – Change the world one step at a time.


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    FME III

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (10:57 am)

    Good start, but let’s refine it by making sure the uninitiated viewer realizes that it’s an electric car:

    “Chevy Volt: The electric car that goes as long as you want it to.”


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:02 am)

    You can be sure that the General is already aware of that and they are already making plans for their own BEV. They’ll be watching to see how successful the LEAF is very closely. (if they are not, then the billions in bailout truly was a waste.)

    You can bet your Twinkies if that car skyrockets in sales, they’ll yank the ICE extender out of a Voltec and stuff it under the hood of the Cruze (or other appropriate small chassis) and play “catch up” once again. Leaving the mighty VOLT with it’s extended range to compete with luxury hybrids from Toyota, Lexus, and others like I’ve already mentioned here many times.


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    old man

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:05 am)

    So you think the adds would work as well as I do? [smile]

    And do not read my post #30, You may suffer road rage even tho not driving.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:07 am)

    Any recharging infrastructure beyond a simple plug would have to be standardized across all makes of EV. That will have a chilling effect on entrepreneurs; only the mega-size NV Phillips / GE / LGs of the world will be players. Ditto any system which merely makes certain that the right person is billed (if power is not provided as an incentive for going to the customer hungry business that the parking space is in front of).


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    MetrologyFirst

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:08 am)

    MDDave,
    I completely agree with this. A 200 mile range battery is a silly concept considering current battery technology and AVAILABILITY of cells. Why have all that unused battery capacitiy sitting around, DOING NOTHING? It certainly is not helping get us off oil.

    Spread that around in multiple vehicles, like the Volt, and you get much more impact with the same battery resources.

    Battery supply is the holdup right now, and in the near future for real mass production of these vehicles. The Volt has it right.

    If the consumer has truely become more offended by the concept of wasting resources, GM should pull a fast one here and use a marketing campaign centered around how WASTEFUL it is to drive around in a car with a 200mile range battery, just to keep it from coasting to a stop. The whole idea of that sounds sort of self centered, to me.

    Argue that the pure EV with the 200 mile range battery is the 2010 Battery EQUIVALENT of the gas hog Hummer!

    That will stir up some emotions.


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    MetrologyFirst

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:09 am)

    Excellent.


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    engineer

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:13 am)

    This should be labeled, “Is the Voltec electric car program having a negative effect on EV marketing?”

    Because the other auto manufactures are shooting themselves in the foot here.

    “We’ll sell you a car that you can only use for 100 miles a day, and then you have to wait a minimum of 8 hours to do that again.”

    That doesn’t make a good idea as a car, cars were made with the idea of “freedom” and “mobility” in mind. EV’s, personally, are neither; they limit where you can go and how much you can do it. The volt on the other hand is the perfect compromise.

    “We’ll sell you a car that you can use anytime anywhere, and if you allow it to charge the night before you can do the first 40 miles of that trip using no gasoline.”

    To me that’s a much more interesting and usable concept, it promotes my mobility as well as freedom to do what I want. GM is just saying, “Hey, we notice a lot of people only drive 40 miles a day, why not make that more economical for them?” Its the same idea as a hybrid, or much more efficient car, it does the same thing as other cars, but it does it better.

    To me that’s marketing genius, make it do the same thing, but better. And pure EV’s are a marketing disaster (sorry EV lovers), yes it does the same thing as other cars, except it can only do 1/2 of it a day.

    Doesn’t sound too appealing, huh?


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    FME III

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:14 am)

    I don’t think you’ll get a lot of peple arguing against your core point: that the Volt is an interim step. People who have been reading this blog for a long time know that GM execs have said as much themselves.

    And yes, true believers wil opt for pure electric — and have to live with the consequences of their choice.

    For those of us who would rather not worry about range anxiety when suddenly we have to make an unexpected trip somewhere, the Volt is the preferred alternative under the current state of the art.


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:16 am)

    ““I’m not going to fill up the tank because why would I want to lug around all that heavy fuel.” Do you?”

    lol….
    YES I DO.
    I’m a cheap bastard and why cary the extra weight? Isn’t that what GM said? Caryy dead weight?lol…..
    I rarely ever “fillerup”, i’m always below half tank for the whole week and fill up my Saturn on Sunday.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:16 am)

    And what about the millions who live in apartments?


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    Dave K.

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:18 am)

    Someone is packing green LEAF in a 2 hose hookah.

    =D~


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    FME III

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:19 am)

    I’d take Nissan $25k price with a huge grain of salt. Remember, at this stage of the Volt’s development, it was gonna cost $29k

    And also remember, that $25k may only be possible by not including the battery — which will be a separate leasing charge.


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    WK4P

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:20 am)

    I’ve never quite understood this fascination with range on a ICE car. My butt and bladder only have a range of about 300 miles, why do I need a car that can go twice that far?


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    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:20 am)

    There are a lot of people that have 2 cars in their house.. and they only drive 10 miles a day, even the Leaf would be overkill for them.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:20 am)

    Some of what you suggest only holds true if the BEV is the only vehicle in the household. With a car of this type, I seriously doubt that will be the case.

    From the comments posted here over the last year, it seems like most buyers of a BEV or EREV will be a 2nd family auto.


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    Brad G

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:27 am)

    OFF TOPIC:

    WHY do all pure EV’s always end up looking like bugs???


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    Schmeltz

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:28 am)

    OK…now say you have a neighborhood power outage, or driving home low in charge and discover you have to take a detour amounting to more mileage than you have available, or you simply forgot to plug the car in at night…we can all think of stressful possibilities here. Just seems easy to be cavalier about the range issue until you’re actually posed with a situation that requires extraordinary measures.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:28 am)

    Charging it every night will be the same as charging intermittently. Life of Li Ion batteries is measured in terms of full charges because the batteries aren’t affected by differently by having a full charge at one time or several partial charges spread out over a longer time period.

    One full charge after using full capacity equals one charge discharge cycle. Partial use and charge is not equal a rated charge discharge cycle.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:29 am)

    Tag Line:

    Introducing the Chevy VOLT. A ‘Real-World Electric Car’ that won’t leave you stranded.


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    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:29 am)

    “Any recharging infrastructure beyond a simple plug would have to be standardized across all makes of EV”

    This is something the gov can do.. same way that gas filler nozzles are standardized.


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    nasaman

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:31 am)

    Ever think of two guys (not gals) needing to get from California to Florida ASAP? I’ve done this many times, and there are numerous stretches of open highway where my grown son and I could pull off, briefly hide behind a tree then swap drivers! :) (But seriously, it’s more about answering the Fusion/Milan Hybrids & future hybrids long-range marketing pitches!)


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    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:33 am)

    Not all pure EV’s look like bugs. Some look like things that eat bugs.

    =D~


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    Flying Frog

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:37 am)

    Pure Electrics FTW !


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    Mark M

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:39 am)

    Well, an asteroid could hit the earth in the middle of my commute too, but I’m not going to worry about that either. Guess it all boils down to this: some people worry about things like range others don’t.

    I drove a motorcycle as my primary vehicle for 5 years in every possible scenario. An electric car doesn’t give me anxiety at all.


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    omnimoeish

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:40 am)

    Hehe, I like it, make sure to show the LEAF guy’s cars getting stuck in some SUPER inconvenient place, like on the Bay Bridge, or going up an on ramp, or in the middle of the freeway with no shoulder. That’s why I’ll never get an EV-100.


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    Mark M

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:41 am)

    They shouldn’t buy BEVs.


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    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:43 am)

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    Tim

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:44 am)

    Jim in PA.

    Anyone who has NOT been living under a rock for the last 15 years knows that network TV in general AND network news specifically have been suffering and in decline for many years. This has also been the case with newspapers and other antiquated means of gathering information.

    Please name your ratings source and include a non-partisan link like I did! Trending is also important to consider while you conduct your research.

    Without 3rd party corroboration, YOUR “numbers” are worthless.

    I know that making up numbers is like redistributing wealth… it makes Progressives FEEL good. Unfortunately, its also like a cocaine high now where there is ALWAYS a price to pay once people discover what you’ve really done and the party is over. Time and time again, history has shown that the repercussions can be catastrophic. (by by Soviets)

    You real name wouldn’t be Stephen Glass, would it?


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    Peacmakr

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:45 am)

    The pictures at the head of the article really answer the question: would any rational American choose the ugly son of an anteater over the beautiful Chevy Volt? I think not. There may be a few irrational econuts who would, but even rational econuts realize they occasionally have to take a trip to an nearby city and don’t want to have to stay overnight to charge their battery. Setting econuts aside, how many rational human beings live more than a 40 mile round trip from where they work. My guess is very very few, and those who do won’t mind using a little gas to get the recently reported 230 mpg (see the earlier post). I think GM has it spot on for rational people who care about the environment and want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.


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    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:45 am)

    Mr Lutz wanted a 400hp 1960′s throwback that he can put a $40,000 price tag on. Because that’s all he makes.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (11:46 am)

    YOU personally are on the hook for nearly 40k in taxes because of all the money being spent on bailouts. ME TOO! And you. And you. And you too.

    It’s just plain numbers. If the government says I owe more to help pay off the national debt, where’s my VOLT? Where’s yours? We paid for it without being asked if we wanted to, right!???

    It’s not anti- democratic or anti-republican to want Uncle Sam to get his hand out of my pockets. It doesn’t feel good and he didn’t buy me dinner first!


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    nasaman

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:03 pm)

    PS: We’ve driven this almost 3,000 mile CA-FL trip so often together in this way that I know about 700 miles between gas stations/truck stops/hot meals is ideal (for us). :)


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    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:07 pm)

    2nd vehicle…I’ve noticed that trend too. A vehicle labeled as a 2nd vehicle is not a mainstream, high volume vehicle…and neither is $40K+ vehicles.

    Another thought, will labeled “2nd vehicles” like the Corvette lose sales to BEVs or EREVs? They share a key market demographic…people that can afford a $40K+ vehicle as a “2nd vehicle”…or even as a primary vehicle.


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    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:07 pm)

    Heh. Looks like you got a -1 demerit for using logical math. People like that HATE common sense. It makes them very angry.


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    DonC

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:10 pm)

    Keep in mind three major ponts:

    1. The deficit was primarily driven by George Bush and the Republican Congress. They started with the biggest SURPLUSES in history and turned them into the largest DEFICITS in history. Basically they cut taxes and then started trillion dollar wars and, when questioned, said that “deficits don’t matter anymore”. (Exact words of Dick Cheney). The really bad thing about these deficits was that they made no economic sense whatsoever. In fact during these years the US should have continued running the surpluses that it had at the end of the Clinton years.

    2. The recent additional deficit spending is defensible on two fronts. One is that they were necessary to prevent a bad recession from turning into a depression (which they seem to have done). Two is that they were necessary to spur necessary investments. Note that, if properly done, in the end both will more than pay for themselves so the addition to long term deficits is minimal or negative.

    3. In the medium and long term, on the outlay side, the deficits will depend on Social Security, Medicare, and Defense. Everything else is a rounding error. So if you want to talk about “government hands in my pocket” you need to substantially decrease spending in at least one or more of these areas. Jumping up and down about outlays of inconsequential amount — like new grass on the Mall — may make for good talk radio but it’s meaningless when actually trying to cut the deficit.


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:11 pm)

    ”If you buy a 200 mile range electric vehicle and your only going to drive 40 miles a day that’s the equivalent of watching a 25 inch picture on a 52 inch TV.”

    This is a very very poor comparison. Stupid if you ask me. Apply the same principle to the Volt.

    ”If you buy a 300 mile EREV vehicle and your only going to drive 40 miles a day that’s the equivalent of watching a 25 inch picture on a 52 inch TV.”

    Here’s why, you’re lugging around the Genset around 100% of the time. Same principle goes for a BEV with a larger battery.
    When I say Genset, it is assumed that all parts of it that requires it to wor, gas tank, exhaust & muffler, ICE, Generator, starter, 12V battery, etc. All add up weight to about 450lbs or more.
    Comparing range of a BEV to a Gas powered anything is just plain stupid. Apples and Chicken wings comparison, it’s just obsurd.
    So by principle of his anology, it’s like having a 16KWh batt pack but you are only allowed 8KWh of it. Same friggin anology applied. So by his priciple this is not a good thing. No matter how you look at it, it has always been stipulated you can only get to use 8KWh.

    Here’s another idiotic comparison…
    ” A 200 mile battery will cost more than a 40 mile battery, a 200 mile battery will weigh more than a 40 mile battery.”

    First, he’s masking the size of the 40 mile battery by saying it’s only 40 miles. Most folks will assume it’a a smaller battey, smaller range = smaller size right? Actual weight is twice the 40 mile battery which is really an 80 mile battery. So yeah DUH! a smaller batt pack is less in weight. So wtf is his point?

    His description of why cells phones were so big is all bullsh|t too. Battery was not the factor. It was the RF electronics and the efficiency of the trancievers. As time wen along the size and efficiency of each power trancievers shrunk as well as the other components shrank with less power requirements and others went full integrated into two single module. The Nicad only shrank because power requirements shrank not the other way around. He’s full of sh|t.

    “They do make trade off decisions in fuel economy and the cost of the vehicle. Look what happened to hybrid sales when gas was $4 or so a gallon versus when it was $1.50 a gallon. That’s the marketplace working.”

    Doesn’t he know yet that if I can’t afford a Volt at $2.00/gal I wont be able to afford one if gas was $10.00/gal? What’s hard to understand this? How do gas prices dictate the sell price? I know, supply and demmand…. I’m sure it will for the .1% of the population but the rest can’t afford it now and wont aford it when gas is $10.00/gal. This applies to a vast majority of buyers. Those on this site a nowher close to the vast majority.


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    Tim

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:12 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:12 pm)

    I don’t care if a company’s officers believe in unicorns. If they make a product that serves my interests, I will buy it.

    To answer your question, even in the absence of global warming, reduction in petroleum use has other environmental benefits in that is leads to reductions in numerous pollutants. And if you ignore the environment completely, you could probably also understand why any patriotic American would want to starve the Middle Eastern dictatorships of oil revenue.

    I won’t bother to down-rate your comment, even though it fails on so many levels.


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    Joe Destiny

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:13 pm)

    Series Hybrids like the Volt are destined to be a niche market only as the overwhelming majority of EV marketplace will be pure electrics (ala Nissan, Tesla etc) or Parallel Hybrids (ala Ford, Toyota etc). Hopefully GM will learn a hard lesson when the Volt goes the way of the Railroad by using outdated Train technology.


  137. 137
    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:16 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Chris

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:16 pm)

    WB, if everyone was as thoughtful of the world as you, we would not have a problem. It is amazing how silly people can be. I also watch both kinds of news to make good judgements. The Volt, Leaf, and anything that gets us off of oil is a GOOD thing. Finally having a president who sees that and is trying to steer us in the right direction is a good thing that Reps and Dems should understand (but trying to score political points seems to be more important). Regardless of what you think of Obama and his policies, at least he is trying to solve huge root problems which have been neglected for a generation or more. Some of his methods may be tough to swallow but at least the problems are finally being addressed. I saw Sen Colburn say on Fox “what do mean you are going to take away my RIGHT to drive a gas guzzler if I want to”. That kind of talk shocks me, and tells me he is out of touch with our problems. Having the “right” to keep us addicted to oil? Having the right to pollute if I feel like it? What does that say about us? Imagine how good a shape our economy would be in if we were not sending nearly a trillion overseas for oil and fighting wars to ensure our access to it. Where is that arguement from those who want the “right” to have gas guzzlers and still want low taxes and less government spending. I’m writing this from my fourth year in Afghanistan by the way. Wake up gas guzzlers, think about our future!


  139. 139
    jeffhre

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:17 pm)

    Don’t forget the chics with hairy legs comment!!

    Hey, you know what, if you really want quotes to bury someone with, instead of talking about cars, don’t waste your time here, go to gossipchannel.com


  140. 140
    DonC

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:17 pm)

    Fox? You’ve got to be kidding me. The median age of Fox viewers is 65?

    http://www.pensitoreview.com/2009/05/05/average-age-of-fox-news-viewer-is-65/

    Fox is the channel for the old, the white, and the men. But mostly old. For most people Fox is to news as Lawrence Welk is to music.


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    Joe Destiny

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:18 pm)

    Since apartments are usually clustered together they have the unique advantage of MANY electric outlets concentrated in a small space making them ideal charging locations. Get Real Man. I hope you just had a case of Brain Freeze when you asked such a dumb donut question.


  142. 142
    Tom Harwick

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:19 pm)

    Lyle: “….I was speaking with a well-educated and knowledgeable friend who currently drives a Camry hybrid. He explained to me that he wouldn’t want a Volt because of its 40 mile range.”

    Kruse: “Maybe we will be judging this wrong and people will brag ‘I have a 200 miles EV and you only have a 40 mile EV’.”

    —————————————————————————-
    As long as we are speaking hypothetically, 200 vs 40 is a problem for the Volt, because only the educated consumer would be aware of the reasons why the Volt is a superior transportation solution for most people.

    But when people are in the showroom, making an actual purchase decision, 200 mile range at $100k vs 40 mile range at $40k is a completely different debate.

    Very few people would spend $100k on a car, but there are millions who could spend $40k if convinced they are getting good value.

    The real problem for the Volt is the $25k 50 mpg Prius. Unless GM can find a way to sell the Volt for under $29k, or gas goes to $20/gallon, the Volt will not go mainstream.


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    Herm

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:20 pm)

    ” I can not imagine having pure electrics on the highways without causing major traffic jams.”

    I guess if people are morons they can cause traffic jams.. but they will have to really work at it. BEV will be setup to slow down once the battery gets to a certain level, and probably even slower once the battery gets even lower.

    Even today people get stranded on the hwy with no gas and a flashing low fuel light.. its not the end of the world or a major cause of traffic jams.


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    Joe Destiny

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:22 pm)

    They will ALWAYS be playing catsup. Its the GM way. The $80 billion raped from taxpayers did not buy them new brains and a new way of thinking. Same GM peoplel…same dirty tricks..


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    newbie

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:23 pm)

    i totally agree!…always half full tank on short trip… but i’m not cheap… im SMART


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    DonC

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:25 pm)

    I guess both guys and gals could use one of those contraptions used by the female astronaut accused of killing her rival and not even leave the car!

    But seriously, I don’t think that range is that big of a deal for the Volt. The Fusion is a much larger car. If the Volt is sold as a commuter car that can go 40 in EV mode, and the advertising and PR is constantly pointing out that 80% of the days you go 40 miles or less, wouldn’t switching gears and talking about 600 mile ranges be distracting, potentially getting in the way of the primary message?


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    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:25 pm)

    You very sad little man. Is the altered reality of wingers so bad that now they think Fox News is more watched than the networks? Here’s a nice graphic showing how deluded you are: http://www.journalism.org/node/1363

    If you can “prove” otherwise, I will humorously check your Photoshopped sources. Think about it… 3 million people watch Fox News in a country with 300 Million people. So if 1% of the people are watching FN, do you think MAYBE the other millions are getting their news elsewhere? (Hint: This is where you irately challenge me to prove that the US has a population of 300 Million, or some similar crazy stunt)


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    jeffhre

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:28 pm)

    Toyota plans on having fuel cell cars out for model year 2016 ( let me save you a comment HERE : 2015/2016 for fuel cells – yeah right!!!!)and they say a great deal of breakthrough progress has been made in just the past year. In 2017 GM could just bolt them onto Volts instead of an ICE range extender. Electric cars are a flexible enough platform to just go with the flow in terms of new technology. Just bolt your new power source on to the chassis and keep going electrically.


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    Joe Destiny

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:28 pm)

    Get your head out of the sand buddy. Have you ever heard of the Nissan LEAF ??

    Affordable ? – YOU BETCHA

    Do I have money to burn ? NO

    Checkout the LEAF, I think this is the car you have been waiting for. Car 2.0 is here !


  150. 150
    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:30 pm)

    its the latest japanese car design fad.. a friend just bought a mazda with a smile on the front of the car. I like the way a Prius looks so dont ask me for aesthetic advice.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lWnJEx1aTgA/SeMt_cbEksI/AAAAAAAAAs8/yiad0DBK_bU/s400/2010+MazdaSpeed3-11.png

    http://media.photobucket.com/image/2010%20mazdaspeed3/Rich125678/2010-Mazda3-Sedan.jpg


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    DonC

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:31 pm)

    The environment is one are many reasons you may like EVs. On the economic front, you may realize that oil imports account for 70% (or something) of the current accounts deficit, and that eliminating or reducing oil imports strengthens the US economy. You may realize that the particulate pollutants from ICE engines endangers your health and drives up health care costs, thus adding to the deficit. You may not like sending dollars to countries that are hostile to US interests or don’t like spending trillions of dollars and countless lives protecting our oil supplies.

    Do you really think many people care what Bob Lutz thinks about global warming? Most people don’t seem to care what Nobel Prize winners think.


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    Tom Harwick

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:33 pm)

    It is obvious to me and many other that the Volt is interim technology on the way to full electrics. Hopefully Volt owners will become addicted to electric propulsion that their next vehicle will be a pure electric. True believers of course will opt for a pure electric from the start. This is just how it is.
    ———————————————————————–
    In the same way, the Boeing 777 Dreamliner is an interim step on the way to time machines. If time travel is ever perfected, and made cheap, there will be no Dreamliners in the sky. But we do not know if the needed technical advance will ever occur.

    If we can get cheap 200 mile batteries, no one would ever want an E-REV. But we really do not know if there will ever be cheap 200 mile batteries. We just have to wait and see.


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    Vincent

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:34 pm)

    Beautiful job on the Blackbird. Jaw dropping engineering!

    Can you give us a hint on what being developed now and whats to come


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    DonC

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:34 pm)

    I see that tomorrow — “08-11″ –GM is announcing their partnership with E-Bay to sell cars over the internet. I hope the “230″ number isn’t related to this — like 230 participating dealers or something. That would be a letdown.


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    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:36 pm)

    Judging by the closest thing I can get my hands on (a 2nd-generation Prius), you can shift in to Neutral and coast. The Prius coasts so well in Neutral that I’ve never had the patience to coast it to a stop. It coasts better than any car I’ve ever driven, including my Jetta TDI.

    There’s light regenerative breaking when you let off the gas pedal in D(rive), so that normal people can drive the car without being freaked out by how well it coasts. It coasts about the same as a normal small car in D, and makes every effort to slow down in B (which is intended for descending long grades).

    I imagine that any mass-market electric car with a low CD would have a similar setup.


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    nasaman

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:36 pm)

    Don, the female astronaut didn’t kill another one –it was simply a battery-type accusation (but not Li-Ion! :) ). And the Volt’s range in ER mode (on gasoline) is guaranteed to be raised by any potential buyer, right?!?

    /…and I stopped wearing diapers at a very, very early age! lol


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:37 pm)

    ROFL!!!!

    Post Script: What if you were too tired to get gas, I bet that asteroid could “mess you up” in an ICE car. Oops I mixed up my analogies :)

    SECOND TRY

    If you were too tired and lazy to fill up your ICE the night before, gas pumps won’t work during a power outage. Maybe you could plug the gas pumps into your 25 kWh BEV battery pack that you didn’t forget to plug in the night before, if the asteroid doesn’t wipe you out first!!!!!


  158. 158
    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:38 pm)

    Well, I do have to give the troll kudos for sticking with one, highly accurate screen name.


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    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:39 pm)

    While hilarious…total derogatory ads about the limitations of BEVs to EREVs is not helpful, and will be considered such by enthusiasts and tree huggers (sorry guys…I like this term). I offer a script change…the EREV driver gives the driver of the drained BEV an umbrella and a ride home. During the drive, the EREV driver mentions that her 2nd vehicle is a BEV and the tow truck experience has happened to her also. The BEV driver gives a sigh of relief like he is not alone in his quest for a better auto industry and world. Make it a love story…the EREV driver is a single woman…and the BEV driver is a single guy. Emotions and new car purchases can not be seperated.

    GM does not want to trash talk a BEV since they may offer one in a few years. It is the same as Lutz’s comments on hybrids years ago.


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    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:39 pm)

    the two men drive past a gas station with long lines of people struggling to get their weekly 2 gallon ration of gas, the Volt dies at mile 40 and the Leaf keeps on going to save the day… cue the flag and the music.


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    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:40 pm)

    I love sarcasm! ;-)


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    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:41 pm)

    Yes, it is a lovely sleek car.. probably would still get great gas mileage.


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    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:42 pm)

    I realized long ago that I had the choice of having my pocket picked for social programs, or having my pocket picked to send my friends to Iraq on false pretenses. Changed me from being a “conservative” to being a “liberal” right-quick.


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    omnimoeish

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:42 pm)

    I agree. If GM’s decision to go EREV-40 is truly a superior system to a BEV-100, it won’t take long for it to become known no matter how much marketing money either company throws at it, and what the public thinks is greener.

    One thing to note though, it will be newsworthy to talk about a friend of a room mate’s uncle who got stuck on the 405 during rush hour because his LEAF only has the equivalent of 3 gallons of gas.

    It won’t exactly be newsworthy to talk about how a friend of my room mate’s uncle saves 1/10th of a gallon gas more a day in his LEAF than a Volt owner saves around the water cooler.

    Basing one’s purchase decision on the system alone will eventually prove to be in the Volt’s favor. The price is going to be a deciding factor too, as it always is, and judging by Nissan’s vague pricing indications, the Volt might cost a lot more.


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    StevePA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:47 pm)

    “Sheeple” because they watch a particular network? If anyone suffers from a lack of intellectual horsepower and independent thinking it would be the individual who labels or pigeonholes someone on such a narrow, ignorant basis.


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    Jeff M

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:47 pm)

    Ah, been a while and I see Lyle is still at it trying to pit one type of EV against another, with of course his view that there is only one solution for all which of course is the series hybrid (aka range extended), and all others like pure EV’s are not the solution for anyone.

    The truth is of course one size does not fit all… and that’s a good thing. The more EV’s regardless of type is better for all of us EV proponents be it GM fanboys or those of us who want choices. More EV’s on the road will provide a bigger market for charging stations (so more will be installed), reduce emissions in congested urban areas, reduce oil imports, etc etc etc

    Let’s address some of the misinformation above from GM’s EV/Hybrid marketing department….

    First is that Lyle specifically mentioned the LEAF pure battery EV pitting it against the Volt series battery EV hybrid… yet GM’s marketing guy starts comparing the Volt to a hypothetical 200 miles/charge BEV as that works better to exaggerate the comparison….

    The Volt has a 16kwh pack (even though it only uses 1/2 the capacity)… the LEAF has a 24kwh pack (close to the 26kwh NiMH pack the 3rd gen GM EV-1 used). Yes, it’s 50% more raw capacity than the Volt’s pack so we can probably guess it weighs about 50% more…. the Volt’s pack I think weighs 375 pounds so the LEAF’s may be about 187 pounds heavier….

    … however the that extra battery pack weight is offset by the Volt’s internal combustion engine’s *and* generator’s weight, as well as factoring in a full gas tank (~ 6 pounds/gallon). Pretty much a wash imho… will be interesting to compare the curb weights of each vehicle when both are available.

    The Volt has only 4 seats… the LEAF is a 5 seater, which may affect some potential customers.

    Just as the Volt is less complex (mechanically) than a conventional vehicle (and imho is also less complex than a parallel hybrid though I know some Prius experts will disagree), and hence should have less maintenance costs, a pure battery EV is even less complex and should in theory have even less maintenance costs. The Volt still has a lot of the baggage of an internal combustion engine (engine oil and filter, coolant, spark plugs, air filter, gasoline that may need to be stabilized, etc) and on top of that has a generator, not to mention integrating that with the battery system, etc.

    The Volt is definitely more mass market than a 100 mile range pure BEV but as should be expected it’s not a one size fits all. Pure BEV’s are a better fit for lots of fleet applications, look at Southern California Edison which has the largest EV fleet in the USA (and maybe the world?) as an example.

    A big factor is *still* going to be the prices of the options at the time someone is shopping for a new car. The LEAF is expected to be $30k, the Volt $40k+ (both I believe are before any tax incentives).

    Bottom line, give me choices we all win including GM!


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    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:48 pm)

    Also, the lady can mention her slight feeling of remorse for not plugging the Volt in for the last several nights in a row…hence the reason for being at the gas station. And the guy replies…”but then we would have never met each other”…the lady smiles says “you are right…things happen for a reason”. Ahhhh! how sweet!


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    LandKurt

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:50 pm)

    Yes, any electric car is going to push the “no gas ever” feature (which really means no backup). The Volt is a compromise, and that will bother some people. How about an ad featuring a guy who says that nearly all his driving is less than 40 miles, but when he goes further it’s beyond 100 or 200 miles. He drove 1000 miles this month and only used 7 gallons of gas (or some-such) and he did not get stuck by the roadside on his one 250 mile trip.


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    omnimoeish

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:51 pm)

    Texas says the LEAF looks like a catfish. I gotta agree.


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    omnimoeish

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:52 pm)

    I agree, hopefully the Ford Focus EV changes this situation.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (12:53 pm)

    GM is apparently not counting on the Volt going mainstream over the first 3 years, based on their announced production plan.

    After 3 years, who knows? The limited Volt release will probably work well enough to prove out the economies of scale, and the validity of the market.

    No one expects the Volt to even make money for GM, at first. The hope is what can become of the idea ‘down the line.’ It’s when economies of scale kick in that mainstreaming becomes possible.

    It’s possible that once the government tax credit expires, the Volt’s price will be lower than or equal to the former after-tax-credit price (which will likely not be true for any BEV available at that time). Anything which helps BEVs to come down in price after that will help EREVs more. BEVs will be under pressure to offer greater and greater ranges to combat range anxiety, which will offset the ever lowering costs of the batteries.

    The EREV will have no such moving target, lower prices should have an immediate effect on the price of the car. This is GM’s announced plan for the Volt.

    The only fly in this ‘wait for it’ ointment may be GM’s ability (or lack thereof) to ‘hang in there’ with other kinds of cars long enough for this to happen. IMO, I don’t think they can without finally playing the ‘strong hybrid’ game with Ford, Toyota and Honda; which they still seem reluctant to do.


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    Vincent

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:00 pm)

    No one can make a good judgement from any news feed really….
    Not being rude at all…Just saying how it is.
    Many are aware and sadly many are not aware that add dollars and politics shape the news. My friend is from another country. The reports here never match the real deal going on there.

    News just programs the masses. Sorry….shades of truth maybe…sad huh…


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    Mark M

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:01 pm)

    Guess you’ve never seen a Tesla Roadster or Tesla S?


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    Jerry

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:15 pm)

    Guess looks are in the eye of the beholder. Looking at the pics at the top, the Volt looks like my neighbor’s 95 Dodge Stratus. On the other hand, I kinda like the looks of the Leaf.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:17 pm)

    Isn’t Nissan talking about using GPS and cell phone information to let you know where charging stations are combined with readouts on remaining miles in their limited release areas? That would replace range anxiety with the knowledge of when you can go and how long it will take.


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    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:22 pm)

    TMI, big guy, TMI…

    We’ll have to start calling you “Viagra” instead of “Tagamet,” if you do that again!!


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    Noel Park

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:23 pm)

    No s**t!


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:24 pm)

    Tesla is essentially the exception that proves the rule. How many times will you see entrepreneurs with gazillions guaranteeing they will put up gobs of their own money, and match investors, and vow to keep their own fortune at risk until the company is profitable? That’s pretty much the opposite of how things usually happen.


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    Noel Park

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:24 pm)

    What about the liberation of Iraq? They put flowers in the barrels of our rifles, right? Ditto Afghanistan.


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    Noel Park

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:25 pm)

    Amen brother, preach on!


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    JAyCeeGrandPrairie

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:26 pm)

    I have not seen anyone mention this yet, but I may be overlooking it. The reason I am still lloking at the Volt versus a current BEV is that like the cell analogy used, when newer technology is developed it can be deployed on older devices. i.e. The Volt is a BEV. When a better battery comes around, the battery in the car can be replaced and if it is good enough (think lithium -air or other quick charge high capacity battery) the gas consumption part of the car can be remove, reducing the weight and giving even more of an increase to the battery distance. Thus a nice current balance between now capacity/capability and future proofing.


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    Noel Park

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:28 pm)

    I think that this is a non-problem. GM has the right concept. People will figure it out soon enough. Range anxiety is real. I really feel that Nissan, Mitsu, et al, are going down a blind alley.


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    Murray

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:28 pm)

    I am so in the same boat as you!


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:28 pm)

    Well, that’s a pretty obvious plug. Go start your own blog, JD.


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    Bruce

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:29 pm)

    Just came back from Tesla in Menlo Park, Ca. A gorgeous 4 door sedan (looks a like a Jag) coming up in 2011, 50K, no gas, 45 minute charge with 220v, low maintainence and 250mi on a single charge. My solar panels are ready-now thats green.


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    Noel Park

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:29 pm)

    That sounds like it will be fun to watch.


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    Crap Load

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:30 pm)

    ..effect on Volt Marketing?..

    WTF, When did GM get a Volt marketing department. What dungmaster is head of this “Volt marketing” branch, department or whatever they are calling it this week ?

    As Bob would surely say: This sounds like a crock of s$@T.


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    Murray

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:30 pm)

    Beetle, Prius, Leaf …. they aint got no alibi…


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    jeffhre

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:31 pm)

    That’s like buying $5000 of toilet paper and filling up your garage until you can’t park your car in it, when you can only use one roll for your “tiny little always in the gym butt” at a time anyway :)


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:33 pm)

    “Isn’t Nissan talking about using GPS and cell phone information to let you know where charging stations are combined with readouts on remaining miles in their limited release areas?”

    That sounds like an app GM could easily copy :-) … as a part of OnStar. :-(


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:36 pm)

    “If we can get cheap 200 mile batteries” and can recharge on the road in a reasonable time, “no one would ever want an E-REV.”

    “But we really do not know if there will ever be cheap 200 mile batteries” that can function in extreme temperature environments. “We just have to wait and see.”

    Fixed that for you.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:37 pm)

    Isn’t Nissan saying that a a few fast charge stations will be scattered around the few limited geographic areas of the Leaf’s roll out for an 80% charge in about 30 minutes, and the charging spots will be on the Leaf’s (or leaves) GPS devices?


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:37 pm)

    The news programs in other countries is also biased. As long as there are human beings writing or even observing the news–it’s going to be biased. Whether the bias is worse in America than other countries–that I don’t know. But I’ve seen prominent European news sources that got basic facts wrong. Basically, it depends on the country in question. But I’d want studies before I assumed that they were automatically much better than we are.

    We do still have freedom of speech in America. While much of the news has a partisan slant, there is still investigative reporting. Governor Blagojevich didn’t get away with selling Obama’s senate seat at least partially because of the Chicago Tribune. To me, that says that to some extent our system still works. Not as well as it should, of course. But it does work.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:38 pm)

    Aesthetics are not rational!!!!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:39 pm)

    LOL!!!!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:45 pm)

    I completely agree with you. Freedom doesn’t give you the right to trample over other people’s rights. When people’s behavior has negative consequences for other people, then they need to compensate them people for that behavior. That very principle is what our whole system is based on.

    In this case, a gas tax of say $2.00 a gallon (phased in slowly) would work admirably. If you want to drive a gas guzzler, fine. But you need to compensate the rest of us for it.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:47 pm)

    The difference is that the Tesla will not be mass produce and the Volt will. That makes a huge difference.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:48 pm)

    I think it comes down to the stupid consumers that judge fuel economy based only on how many miles you get on a tank (i.e. tank size doesn’t seem important to them).

    This is a silly argument. Just because Ford is doing their usual slight of hand doesn’t mean that everyone else should dumb down to their level. And it certainly doesn’t mean that GM should overly complicate the fuel system of the Volt.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:52 pm)

    We don’t know the price of the battery for the Leaf so this not a fair comparison.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:52 pm)

    How much extra fuel do you really think a full tank uses over a half-tank? Anyone seen any studies on this?

    I guess it would depend on how much fuel you waste (not only yours, but anyone you keep waiting who is idling) filling up twice as often


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:53 pm)

    Mike-O
    TMI? I get the gist of what you’re saying, but I don’t know that acronym. If I took the handle Viagra, My wife might collapse and break a hip (lol).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:53 pm)

    Uh oh. I forgot about Ebay. I think you’re right, Don.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:57 pm)

    The hard part is going to be communicating “…the advantage of a 40 mile battery with EREV over say a pure BEV with a 100 or 200 mile battery.” and then making sure the consumer doesn’t take the argument to the logical conclusion and buy a non-plug hybrid.

    As I recall, the Insight uses 1/27th the battery of the Volt. How does a 16KWh x 27 = 432KWh battery strike you relative to the Volt?

    At least with the BEV you can talk about how there is no ICE. That is a great talking point that may distract from the inefficient use of the battery. The Volt won’t have that advantage.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:58 pm)

    Jackson, lol, play nice! The guy(?) must have missed the Leaf thread here (or not).
    I agree that the ambient temps will have a huge effect on the initial rollouts of BEV’s, but at least they could warm up from the plugin process.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (1:58 pm)

    GM’s current position is that the Volt will always have 40 miles of All Electric Driving — period. They hope that smaller lighter batteries will cost less in later versions.

    I too hold out hopes that early Volts can be retrofitted with later batteries in order to get higher AER, but without GM’s OK it’s not likely to happen. The firmware which controls the car’s behavior would need to be updated to let it ‘know’ that more capacity is there (and perhaps that more of the base capacity can be safely used).

    That’s not to say that the Volt’s operating system couldn’t be “hacked” by someone, but they should give up all hopes of future GM service if they do.

    That’s not to say that GM won’t change it’s mind and give a later Voltec vehicle a higher AER; but that won’t help early Volt adopters: the format of the new battery would likely be different; and in any case, GM is better served by your buying a new car over your extending the life of an old one.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:00 pm)

    ”If you buy a 300 mile EREV vehicle and your only going to drive 40 miles a day that’s the equivalent of watching a 25 inch picture on a 52 inch TV.”

    *************************************************************************

    No, that’s equivalent to never having to buy gas again


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:03 pm)

    GM: We picked 40 miles because is enough for 78% of daily commuter’s needs. That is why 100 Miles is so little it isn’t worth considering.

    GM: A smaller battery is better because more people will use it more of the time. That is why we use a batter 27 times the size of the Insight and 10(?) times the size of the Prius. And that is why you should buy a Volt instead of a hybrid.

    The Volt has a number of compromises that GM has attempted to ignore/gloss over. There is no doubt they will be exploited.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:03 pm)

    It may not be a blind alley, insomuch as the BEV’s day is coming, eventually (right before hydrogen, lol). I do feel that it’s yet another ‘false dawn’ for the (pure) electric car. The technology, the economics and the infrastructure simply aren’t ready, yet.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    Wow, and I thought that *I* was sappy. (lol). Cue violins (or EHarmony ad.)
    Oh, and I do think that GM has no real need to create enemies among environmentalists. We need to keep in mind that MOST of us are already fanboys (and girl).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:05 pm)

    “What dungmaster is head of this “Volt marketing” branch, department or whatever they are calling it this week ?”

    I dunno, take a look in your load.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:06 pm)

    When you can tell us more, or post a link, drop around again.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:08 pm)

    I think we are talking about a pure electric vehicle here. The Volt will travel long distances just like the way we are all accustom too. Not so with the all electrics. I would never travel with a pure electric except for around home.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:09 pm)

    Good idea. My guess using DaveG’s Volt mileage chart is that most months your man will drive about a thousand miles and use about 3.1 gallons of gas!!!!!!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:09 pm)

    Jackson, I’ve seen it referred to on other “green” sites, but haven’t personally seen the winking receptacle “in the wild”.
    Definitely will tomorrow!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:12 pm)

    Are you implying that Maximum Bob is not right up there in the thick of it with Nobel Prize winners?


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    Shock Me

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:13 pm)

    I think it is pretty clear he has no experience organizing death camps. I think his training is much better suited to organizing things like the Warsaw Ghetto or Thersesenstadt. Just saying…

    Also he’s more of a very young Lenin or Trotsky than a Hitler or Stalin.

    I doubt he’s Muslim since he doesn’t appear to believe in anything. And who cares where he was born if he was a child of the Daley machine?
    ;)


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    Jason M. Hendler

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:14 pm)

    In my experience, laying your cards on the table is a great way to freeze your opponents. For a long time, they will dismiss your approach as lunacy. Then, as support grows for your approach, they start to criticize it in an attempt to undermine your success; meanwhile, they attempt something 180 degrees in the other direction. Finally, when their approach fails, they copy your approach, but too late to impact your initial sales. I know this is all counter-intuitive, but it works, just as it is working for GM now, because only in the last couple of months have competitors started announcing their own E-REV offerings.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:15 pm)

    … not if rapid recharge BEV’s cost $50K or more …


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:16 pm)

    DonC,
    Obviously GM needs to promote the Volt, but why do you think that word of mouth has limits? Maybe it’s the small town rearing, but cars get around to be seen (and asked about) a LOT. I didn’t do any ads about my shrinkery and had people driving 2 hours each way – just from word of mouth. And I quit that after 14 years with a waiting list.
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    PS I used to get calls that went: Hi this is Wanda Sue, I think you worked with Billy Bob. I’d say I’m sorry but I can’t say. Then Wanda would say, But he SAID you did! I’m sorry, but I can’t SAY. Then Wanda Sue would ask for an appointment.
    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:17 pm)

    The fact that creative, intelligent people build the best spy gear and things that go boom is what helps keep your freedom to sit at home and watch the large-breasted teleprompter readers on Fox.

    You may not be thankful that their efforts makes your ungrateful life one with freedoms, but I am.

    If we lose sight of that, then we should start learning to speak Chinese.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:22 pm)

    Why would anyone even consider buying a GM wannabee of a Toyota Prius? It’s just another marketing scheme that will certainly backfire like the Vega did years ago. Stick with the Japanese for quality vehicles. GM doesn’t have the ability, knowledge, or desire to build anything of quality, and they certainly continue to way over price everything they are trying to sell. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:23 pm)

    What if your on the highway with a traffic jam, bumper to bumper…..where this scenario is most likely to happen, how are you going to pull the side of the road? Unless you are a magician, you will end up tying the traffic even further. Believe me, this will happen with pure electrics!!!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:23 pm)

    It could also be said that the difference is Billy Durant started GM 100 years ago and Tesla started in 2003.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:24 pm)

    You can’t be serious about carrying around extra weight in fuel. A few gallons is nothing on the large scale of mpg. Maybe we should all weigh under 125 lbs. as a way to mandate better fuel economy. If you want a lighter car, buy one.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:25 pm)

    CNBC had a brief interview with Lutz this morning, and the reporter asked him about tomorrow’s announcement of the Volt’s MPG figure, and if it would be much higher than anyone would’ve thought. Lutz wouldn’t give the number, but said that indeed it would be a really big number. I think we now know for sure what the 230 commercial is all about. I still don’t buy a MPG figure for cars such as the Volt – it will be as meaningless as the little progress bar on your computer whenever you install or upgrade software.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:25 pm)

    OK. I agree that Bush’s deficits were completely irresponsable, and the cause of half our national debt. Right now, we’re paying about 500 billion in interest on that debt, which I regard as a complete waste of money. And he’s the reason we have to beg China for money.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/29/us/politics/29sanger.html

    But Clinton’s surpluses were temporary and illusiary. Yes. He balanced the budget when he came in. I give him credit for that. But the surpluses were the result of the tech bubble, and were gone before Bush even took office. Besides, Clinton had the advantage of much lower medicare spending–Americans were younger, and a lot of expensive treatments hadn’t been invented yet. And he also had higher tax receipts since proportionately more of the popluation was pre-retirement.

    Between with dot.com bust and 911–if Bush had run those surpluses, we would have a had a crisis much sooner. What I think happened is that Bush came in, took one look at the economic situation, and said “not while I’m president.” Or rather, Cheney did. Bush isn’t smart enough. So he did everything possible to goose the economy. He increased the deficits. Lowered interest rates. And loosened credit standards. And he almost made it the full eight years.

    Of course, that ultimately made the ultimate crisis a lot worse. But, in fairness, it’s not like everything was great when Bush took office. And, unfortunately, it looks to me like Obama may be repeating Bush’s mistakes. As in spending too much on consumption to help the economy right now. And too little on investments for America’s future.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:26 pm)

    ER-EV confusion is ridicuous. How about just compare GM to Toyota and let the latter company worry about the EV debate. Anyone who seriously considers purchasing anything that GM is trying to sell might need to make a trip to the local neighborhood psychiatrist.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:28 pm)

    This is not feasible. Too much current is involve with this theory.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:29 pm)

    (sniff)
    I sure miss Walter Cronkite.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:29 pm)

    Needing a back up system is hogwash. If it weren’t, we’d all have 500 gallon fuel tanks on our vehicles. Redundancy is only needed on the space shuttle. If you can only go 40 miles, so be it. Buy something else and stop trying to make GM’s volt into something that it is not. They’ll do that for us, just watch how it flops.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:30 pm)

    Who would be stupid enough to buy one? After all, it’s a GM (failed, bankrupt company).


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:31 pm)

    Do you know if the Nissans need a proprietary charger at home? The charging stations are not compatible with the Volt so I was wondering if someone might actually be discouraged from buying both. I didn’t express this so well, but do what you can to help me understand.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:33 pm)

    If you don’t mine waiting hours and paying $100 an hour!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:35 pm)

    Right. Exactly.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:35 pm)

    Range is a feature that some people value. Increasing it doesn’t mean Ford is using slight of hand. It means they’re making a better car. What’s wrong with that?

    Yes. Some people might wrongly conclude that it means the car is more fuel efficient. But that’s not a reason to not increase the size of the gas tank!


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    Shock Me

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:35 pm)

    I submit you were never conservative if you accepted it was the right of either one to pick your pocket for either alternative.

    That being said I’m happy we have proof Saddam was bluffing and your friends and mine (at least most of them) will be able to come home soon. I’m so proud of the job they’ve done. Counter-insurgency is a very nasty business with very little payoff for the investment. My fondest hope is the President of peaceful Iraq will one day call us fat and stupid and start treating us like Europeans do.

    I’d much rather have paid for daycare centers for the children of solar cell installers or wind turbine erectors, but one less bully is nice.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:35 pm)

    There’s a little more to it than the size of a nozzle, but yes; govt will have to be involved to assure a single standard across the board.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:36 pm)

    You can buy 2 Honda Fits for the price of one of these GM volt things and have 40 mpg and the equivalent of 600,000 miles of trouble free driving. Do the math, do the cradle to grave carbon footprint analysis, and you’ll soon see that there is really no good reason to even think about buying one of these overpriced electric behemoth versions of the Chevy Vega, especially from a bankrupt, dead, government and union owned company. Stick with the Japanese for years of trouble free and bankrupt free driving. Hmm.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:36 pm)

    Not for me. I want a car with great gas mileage, and if the first 40 miles are electric, that’s a plus. Go Volt Go!!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:37 pm)

    If I recall they bitched and whined like citizens of a democracy should.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:38 pm)

    Have you ever seen a brand name car that never failed!! No, you give us a break.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:38 pm)

    Must be a union hold-over or something to even think about the viability of anything GM tries to sell. My advice – give the vette away and buy an Infinity or Lexus. Faster, better, safer, more reliable, and best of all not overpriced union junk. Hmm.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:39 pm)

    I think I’ll leave it to the marketing wizzes to see which of the cars sales pick up steam. After they are released and we can verify their sales records!!!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:40 pm)

    People used to say they’d never ride in a horseless carriage. Get with the program buddy.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:40 pm)

    I would charge it when it has only only ten miles left in the battery.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:41 pm)

    Sure, we can spread FUD about anything. As my cohorts said often when I was eight years old – it’s a free country.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:41 pm)

    …30 miles remaining … 8 miles remaining … 46 miles remaining … 2 miles remaining …

    Let’s just hope Microsoft doesn’t have much (if anything) to do with the Volt’s software!


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:42 pm)

    That depends on if you consider having an extra car “affordable.” It might work for some people. But definately not all. And IMHO, the Volt will work for more than the Leaf.

    But I could be wrong. We’ll find out in about three years…


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:43 pm)

    I think we are talking about commuting, but if we are not, good luck with your Leaf on long trips. If you know what I mean.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:44 pm)

    I’m tired of this range stuff. If you want range, I guess you’ll need to buy a trailer and mount either a 15kW generator on it, or mount 50 extra batteries. Get with the program and figure out that electric vehicles are electric vehicles, with limited ranges, just like gasoline vehicles. How about Let’s Just Keep the Volts’ Wheels off the Road”. There’s a thought. Hmm..


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:44 pm)

    Whoa, maybe not. Take a look at (#47) coffeetime’s post below.

    PRE “230″ REVELATION REMINDER:

    I’ve been saying for some time that mileage in charge-sustain mode was going to end up topping 50mpg by quite a bit (no, not as much as 230mpg, lol).


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    Timaaayyy!!!

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:45 pm)

    Hot news day on this blog–lots of political venting.

    Back to the Volt: I like GM’s marketing of it so far–not too much too soon. And this site, overall, has been great.


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    Frank

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:45 pm)

    How about just not buying any Volt? Hmm..


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:46 pm)

    Give up on Corvettes!!!???

    Blasphemy!!!! ;)


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:47 pm)

    … uh, that rationale works equally well for Nissan’s ‘Cup -O- Noodler’ too. Do we really think that the Leaf will be future-proofed with a new battery when the alternative is that you buy a new Leaf?


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    Frank

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:47 pm)

    The only thing you’ll be able to bolt onto the GM Volt is more than likely just overpriced replacement parts. The Vega lives on.


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    Altazi

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:47 pm)

    An even better choice: None of the Above. Vote Libertarian.


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    Ken Grubb

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:48 pm)

    By and large, people have a very limited and often skewed understanding about hybrids, plugins, E-REVs, and EVs. Some degree of confusion will perhaps, just maybe, cause them to start asking questions and obtaining answers.

    The future is EVs, I’m sure of that. But hybrids, plugins, and E-REVs are gonna be with us for some time to come.

    If anything, I suspect that pure EVs are gonna put off a lot of people who look at the choices and are gonna be swayed by the strength of the E-REV argument.


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    Frank

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:49 pm)

    Nissan has it figured out, just as Toyota does. GM? Nope.


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    Eat This Pie

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:52 pm)

    I don’t think the 100 mile range “pure electric cars” will hurt sales of the Volt one bit.

    1. They are only going to make 10,000 of them year one then 50k or 60k year two so there will be plenty of pent-up demand for the Volt.

    2. The costs are going to be pretty close unless Nissan really makes a play to own the market here – which they could easily do if they priced their 100 mile EV at $29k or less.

    3. The Tesla, iMiev, etc., are much more expensive than the Volt so they are putting themselves into a much smaller niche (the green and cash laden crowd is getting smaller these days – at least the cash laden part, far more people are on board with green than ever before).

    4. GM and the range “fear mongers” here and elsewhere are doing a pretty good job of trying to frighten the sheep into sticking with a gas powered car. Just as planned. Never mind that you haven’t driven more than 100 miles in a day in the past 6 months to a year (I haven’t in over 2 years, my wife 1 1/2 years).

    5. People forget so easily how much pain they were in with $4 gas. They’re buying all those gas guzzler SUVs and pickup trucks again. I wish I could be so easily distracted – - Ooh, what’s that shiny thing over there???

    and finally, 6. GM will see the writing on the wall and increase the AER of the Volt and Orlando erev models to 60 miles or more by model year three.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:53 pm)

    There happens to be a psychiatrist on this board; let me show you him.

    Tag?


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    Jesse

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:57 pm)

    Your comments are very offensive and I sense a racist tone. You may want to seek counseling to correct your bad behavior. I have seen bad parenting produce people of your ilk before.


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:58 pm)

    You are posting too quickly, Frank. Please slow down.


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    RickW

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:59 pm)

    You are obviously uneducated.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (2:59 pm)

    You are posting too quickly, Frank. Please take it easy.


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    MetrologyFirst

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:00 pm)

    So your saying the Insight or Prius are better solutions, ………… or else a BEV? Really??

    Wow, talk about confusing……….

    Must be hard to continue to promote everything done by Honda and Toyota while putting down all things GM.

    All solutions are compromises. You simply have to choose how to lose.

    The arguments against the Volt are getting weaker IMO….. the battery/gas advantages of the Voltec approach do not need to be rehashed again.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:01 pm)

    Increased gas prices change the supply and demand equation for the Volt. If you can’t afford a Volt at a buck fifty for gas, you can’t afford it at 10 bucks either.

    Some folks will sacrifice (too much in my opinion) to get Volts they can’t afford if gas goes to 10 bucks but more often folks will look at their late model Tahoes, Mercedes, Tundras BMW’s and Escalades and say, do I want to replace this with another one when gas is 10 bucks – to heck with that.

    When I was in Palm Springs, this spring, I saw a bunch of trendy folks taking their Prius to eat at fancy restaurants. I could just imagine the Palm Springs area Toyota dealer asking himself, what the heck am I gonna do with all these Mercedes and BMW’s folks are trading in for the Prius.

    CorvetteGuy what will your shop do if you have that problem when the Volt comes out?


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    Roger Daily

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:02 pm)

    EEstor and be done with this ERev nonsense. ;-)


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    stuart22

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:03 pm)

    I wouldn’t worry too much about EV’s. They are the good, wholesome girl that everybody admires but nobody wants to date. The Volt is also good and wholesome, albeit a bit less perfect, but the big deal with her is she’ll let you go a lot further with her before she has to be taken home.

    Lyle’s friend is simply playing the ‘yes, but’ game. These kind of people usually harbor some stubborn notion that prevents them from talking sense until forced to open their wallets and fork up. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s anti-GM; anti-USA auto companies, and therefore don’t hold your breath waiting for him to come around to reality.

    Reality: the Volt allows consumers an easy way to switch over from gasoline to electric power without any change in driving habits; pure EV’s force consumers to reevaluate their driving habits and make drastic and in some cases impossible changes.

    Once these hit the market, reality will prevail.


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    Roger Daily

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:04 pm)

    I’m with Bob on this one. :-)


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    jeffhre

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:04 pm)

    Why would anyone be hopeful that anyone efforts to get us off of overseas oil would fail.

    Oh yeah, that’s right, only have a short time till the rains send ‘em back under the bridge.


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    Jocko

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:05 pm)

    Totally off topic, but that’s is so cool that you worked on the SR-71. Dude I was totally obsessed with that plane when I was a kid. I still have a model of it around somewhere. Very entertaining seeing one in Transformers too. Hehe.

    Well anyhow I just had to let you know that you are officially the man! Awesome!


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:07 pm)

    Betcha that one comes in at over $40k.
    I wish I could afford one.


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    David K (CT)

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:07 pm)

    I agree that the extra weight of the fuel in inconsequential.

    Driving moderately is really the only major impact one can have for saving fuel.

    But, last year, when gas was $4/gal., I do remember ordinary folk talking about never filling their tank and even filling in the morning or evening for fear or not getting as much because of the vapor loss from the heat. Oh Boy!

    Ya know, I agree that all these items may have some effect, but they are extremely negligible.


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    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:08 pm)

    If the statistics are correct that 78% of people drive under 40 miles per day, chances are that you won’t see the Volt owner waiting in those long lines. People will begin to plan their day better so that they can accomplish the daily tasks of going to work, to shop for consumables, etc., in between home and our place of work. The great thing about electric drive is no energy is used when we are stopped at a street light or stop sign, or in long lines at that gas station or on the highway with tie-ups because of accidents on the expressway. It baggles my mind that people leave the engine running for no good reason wasting all that gasoline and its cost. Go Volt! Electric drive is the way to go.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:08 pm)

    Excellent. I don’t generally watch TV news but I have seen CBS, NBC, and Fox News when they have actual footage of events. I prefer C-Span’s non commentary style but they don’t have the budget to point their cameras in all the places where I’m interested in looking (if I want up skirt cam of some Hollywood starlet I’d rather pay the fee than watch TMZ).

    The information provided by TV news from all networks is normally of so poor a quality or so trivial the issue of editorial and journalistic bias seldom rises to any great level interest for me.

    Still one can glean nuggets of info in between the Harvard drive-bys.

    I’ve also found TV news useful during severe weather and I’m sure sports scores are of interest to someone unable to watch the contest.

    I would be interested to see a geographic distribution of the various viewership numbers given the expense of cable and its adoption rate. Because of how analog and now digital broadcasts behave I wonder how much geographic features impact share in different markets among groups where cable is still a luxury.

    Compared to when I grew up even those current network numbers are pretty pitiful. Maybe everyone is watching Oprah, John Stewart, Dr .Phil, or American Idol?


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    jeffhre

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:09 pm)

    Toyota played the long range development waiting game with the Prius and now says it’s a mid level profit maker for them.

    Hopefully the new GM will continue to develop it’s offerings and not leave them as orphans.


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:10 pm)

    “Reasonable” doesn’t mean instantaneously, or even the 6 minutes of a gas pump. Anything faster than 220VAC in your garage would be significant.

    The plug at every parking place scenario doesn’t even imply abnormally high currents, you’d just charge the same rate as at home for the time you are parked there.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:10 pm)

    Hey, C Load….

    That’s a new name to these here bloggin parts

    Statik, is that really you in disguise?!
    It sounds like you.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:12 pm)

    I won’t believe it until it’s on a window sticker and sittin’ in the showroom.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:12 pm)

    Oh, sh|t.


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    Tagamet

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:18 pm)

    Schmeltz,
    Not only will you not be “stuck” in a power outrage, but Gen 2 or 3 may allow you to run the car and plug in the refrigerator (or TV, or computer) Whatever’s most important to the homeowner. They sure would come in handy in an emergency.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:19 pm)

    I had a model of it, too.


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    coffeetime

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:19 pm)

    My bet’s on Mr. Fusion (to power the flux capacitor) – either that or Helium 3 (must see the movie “Moon” for that to make sense).


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:21 pm)

    I wish the Libertarians really had a chance.

    Of course there are liberal (free pot, no motorcycle helmets) and conservative (fair tax, don’t take my money to cover someone else’s lack of responsibility) Libertarians, too.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:21 pm)

    Sounds like the Tesla Model S. Here is a quote from ABG that might be of interest: “Customers will also be able to buy the 160-mile pack and rent the long range [300 mile] pack for a trip.”

    If I had $50,000 to spend on a car ($49,900 after the $7500 rebate) the Tesla Model S would definitely be the car I’d buy. So long BMW. Bye-bye Mercedes. So long fully loaded domestic pickup truck (which comes out to around $44k to $46k depending on options). So long Mustang Cobra, Corvette, etc., pricey muscle cars – - you’ve just been replaced.

    Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/

    Another quote: “They are finalizing the warranty, and expect it to be 3-4 years for the car and 7-10 years for the battery pack. They expect replacement battery packs to come in at “well under $5000″ according to Elon.”


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    MetrologyFirst

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:22 pm)

    Nothing like spending extra time driving “off your intended route/out of the way” just to get recharged. Another compromise you have to make with the LEAF………

    With the Volt this is not necessary……….


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:23 pm)

    Slow down, Frank. You’re gonna explode.


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:26 pm)

    Hmm, indeed. A couple of us actually have Fits, and while mileage is good for a gas-only vehicle of this size, it doesn’t even approach 40 mpg. Has the Fit been out long enough for more than 8 of them to have gone 300,000 miles?


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    MetrologyFirst

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:26 pm)

    No, its an excellent analogy.

    Why pay the money for a 52″ TV and only watch a show on 25″ of it?

    Why pay for DAILY wasted capability.


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    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:29 pm)

    No an erev uses gas, ESPECIALLY in the cold. It will use gas right off the bat.
    A BEV will not. This is the principle so don’t retort with any range garbage.


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:31 pm)

    You are humming because you don’t know the words? Hmm..


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    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:32 pm)

    Cue the flag and drape it over the Leaf at 200 miles. Play taps. Show the Volt driver (now having found gas) stopping to pick up the Leaf driver because the recovery tow truck was too busy hauling other Leafs.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:32 pm)

    You think Don is right! Uh Oh, good thing Statik isn’t posting :) I’m just kidding, you bright guys saw a lot of common ground, over time.


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    jeffhre

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:34 pm)

    OK great point!! Except it completely ignores the fact that Lyle’s primary ride is a pure EV Mini.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:35 pm)

    Probably it’s “no-name.”

    Statik: Gone, but not forgotten.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:37 pm)

    Let’s Just Get The Volt’s Wheels On The Showroom Floor! ;-)


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    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:38 pm)

    Most on this site speak about the VOLT like it’s the only “E” vehicle GM will have to offer so therefore it will fail against other types of EVs.

    GM borrowed a bunch of money they will probably never be able to pay back, so the first Voltec needs to be a hit, at least with the Washington crowd and maybe Hollywood.

    Sure, the Palm Spring crowd will have fun seeing who is the greenest. They can afford to. What really matters is getting the costs down and range up for the 2012-2013 model years. That’s when we should ask how GM is doing and if it has been a successful recovery.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:40 pm)

    It’s a blind alley confined to some limited exploratory geographies, lit with GPS showing the charge locations and a few “quick charge” sites.

    With them going down the “blind alley” it will shed some light on what the future could look like for the rest of us.


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:40 pm)

    Why do we have commentary like the above, now?

    Because, “That’s the way it is.”

    Cronkite died of shame.


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    ccombs

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:44 pm)

    Agreed.

    At first I was annoyed at the comment streams degenerating into a war of political ideologies, but then I stepped back and realized how beautiful it was. The Volt is loved by rabid right and left-wingers and everyone in-between. You’re not going to find many conservatives posting on the “west coast EV startup” blogs, for instance.

    Chevy marketing really needs to emphasize that the Volt is a car that brings people together of all different stripes (leaving out the caveat “who have 40k to drop on a car”). It is a car for *everyone* (read, everyone who has 40k). I still think they need to make an endearing commercial with a hippie who buys the Volt for environmental reasons and a stereotypical backwoods conservative who wants to get off foreign oil (with “why can’t we be friends” playing in the background). Now that Bob “screw PC” Lutz is in charge of marketing, this may have a chance…

    PS. In other news, I think I may have convinced a skeptical father to take a chance on the Volt gen II or so when he retires…

    PPS. Maybe the commercial should show the hippie and hick falling in love and having two (really confused) children who are sitting in the Volt’s backseat as the car hits 150,000 miles while retaining 40 AER :)


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:48 pm)

    “With the Volt this is not necessary……….”

    I would’ve said it was “optional.”

    I think that standard-current charging at parking spaces might be offered on the basis of EREV penetration alone, once the numbers are right. Ironically, this will benefit mainly the BEV.

    Just another reason not to pit one electric approach against the other.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:48 pm)

    lol….
    Then whay all the argumentative speculation of the Volt’s tank size?

    Personally if 1 gallon of gas weigh ~6.3gal and if I did not fill 6 gallons in I save a ~37lbs. How much weight from an SUV? if half a tank wighe 8 gallons ~50.3lbs.

    Why carry more crap for than you need for the few round trips of your work commute?
    This is in ptrol not battery.

    In the Volt, you are carrying 75% more of what you need in battery weight AND the Genset and all it’s normally required parts for an ICE. Adds weight and if you only go 40 miles then it’s dead weight.


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    ccombs

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:50 pm)

    Ummm… I have driven more than 100 miles 4 times in the last 2 weeks. Sure it’s not typical, but I expect that to happen frequently enough that I will not be getting a pure EV anytime soon, regardless of how much I like some of them (like the aptera).


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:52 pm)

    Jackson that is really funny :-) but probably true :-(


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    Jackson

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:52 pm)

    (Shhh, I’m hoping to goad him back. Hydrogen is next).
    ;-)


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:55 pm)

    There’s a movie called “Moon”?

    I do know what helium 3 is, though. It’s likely the only thing actually valuable enough to bring back from the moon (would make fusion easy enough to be economically practical).


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:59 pm)

    “I wonder if there is a charging station near here?” … and the answer is YES. There is always an electrical outlet near here.

    The better question you’ll soon be asking is “now that half the cars in America are electric and so many gas stations have gone out of business: is there a gas station anywhere near here?”

    I say “Good riddance to bad rubbish.”


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (3:59 pm)

    “Once these hit the market, reality will prevail.”

    Correct.

    When a Volt at $43,000.00 and a BEV 100 AER at $30,000.00 is available. I will choose the BEV. The BEV has it’s purpose and achieves full relief not “Partial” relief of petrol, i.e, I will not have to go buy pterol at the gas station.

    A BEV is a vehicle with a purpose. If you want to go offroad, you buy an offroad 4wd something, if you want to drive20 miles round trip with no gas, you get a BEV.


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    Shock Me

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:02 pm)

    Well for one thing I can’t refine my own gasoline. So I’ll take electric, cellulosic ethanol, biodiesel, or even hydrogen.

    Besides the globe will warm no matter what we do when the sun goes super nova. I say we get smart and keep the rockets ready.

    Plus gasoline is smelly. So aside from electrocution and that crispy critter smell, I’d say electric is all upside once it has the infrastructure.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:02 pm)

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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:03 pm)

    eestor….
    here we go again……


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:06 pm)

    In one continuous run or stop off?

    In the past 3 months I have not driven more than a single 24 mile run round trip. A BEV freeway capable is in demand here.


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    Shock Me

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:06 pm)

    This will be extremely doable in complexes where the landlord owns the parking area and a great amenity to draw in new renters in competitive markets. But I think he was talking about their availability today.


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    DonC

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:07 pm)

    I have to agree with you. Early adopters may be willing to put up with headaches but most people just won’t want the hassles of a BEV.


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    Shock Me

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:07 pm)

    In all fairness you can at least PUSH a motorcycle.


  317. 317
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:08 pm)

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
    I totally agree. If they did, you have to click the “Start” button to stop….. :-P


  318. 318
    DonC

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:10 pm)

    I’ve got the money but the Tesla is not on my list. To begin with, it won’t be $50K if it appears. More like $65K+ after rebates.

    More importantly, I’m not a fan of using a zillion laptop batteries. The larger format batteries that GM and Nissan are using make a lot more sense. With so many cells there are just too many failure points and too many cells to monitor.

    As for anything Elon Musk says … whatever.


  319. 319
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:12 pm)

    Joe,

    Monthly Pontiac GTO sales from 3/06 – 1185
    Monthly hoped for Model S sales 2012 – 1670

    I just picked one out of a hat that was close enough for comparison purposes. Pontiac was a mass market OEM brand. Tesla has mass market aspirations.


  320. 320
    Eat This Pie

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:15 pm)

    Entrepeneurs never put up their own money till their business becomes profitable??? Wow. You are so wrong. That is how the overwhelming majority of companies get started.


  321. 321
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:15 pm)

    Once all the smoke clears (i.e. when the initial price gouging/ gubmint rebate stuff) is over, the market will decide and it will decide in favor of which is the most electric bang for the buck.

    The Leaf will settle down into a low $20k’s price range, with upgrades available for more AER. The volt will struggle to get into the mid $30k’s. (IMO)

    The volt will require some maintenance, the Leaf will require almost none.

    In the end the customer will have to ask himself how real is range anxiety, and how much he will pay to relieve the fear of being stranded.

    P.S. I’ve had to call for a tow 4 times in my driving life (so far). All four instances could not have happened to a BEV (2 radiator hoses, 1 tranny, 1 ignition control module) This does not include the many, many times 2 hands and a toolbox has got me going. . . again, all these shade tree repairs were on items that would not have been there to break on a BEV. (Broken fan belts, clogged fuel filters, dead starter (oil leaked onto it), water pumps failed, exhault leaks, o2 sensors etc… etc….etc…..)


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:16 pm)

    Martin Weeg,

    Perhaps together they will bring so many new potential buyers to the market (market expansion) that each product and several others will acquire more potential buyers and sales potential from the efforts.


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    DonC

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:20 pm)

    Doesn’t sound anything like statik. He would have never said anything remotely like this. Rather than spew a series of insults he would have explained why “friggin Bob Lutz” was messing up, maybe with a few snide remarks. But nothing like this.


  324. 324
    Jim I

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:21 pm)

    TMI = Too Much Information…..

    Just thought you should know!

    :-)


  325. 325
    DonC

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:23 pm)

    There may be a sweet spot for buying a Volt Gen II. Let’s assume that GM can indeed get the price down to the $30K. Let’s also assume that it can release the Gen II before it uses its 200K allotment of $7.5K rebates. Lots of numbers but basically we’re talking about a $23K EREV. That would be sweet.


  326. 326
    Jim I

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:27 pm)

    I stopped by my local Chevy dealership today to ask about getting on a waiting list for the Volt.

    The salesman thought I was from Mars. All he wanted to talk about was “clunkers”. So I asked to speak to the general manager. He said, “I was wondering when this would happen.”. So he started a folder titled “Volt Prospects”, and put my name and phone number as #1 on the list.

    It is kind of sad really…..


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    DonC

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:43 pm)

    Thanks. I saw that. I so want the E-bay thinge to be wrong. It’s OK if they announce it but on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being very exciting, I’d give the E-bay announcement a 1.

    FWIW I think the idea is that the 230 mpg would rely mostly on the EV mode and that the mpg when in charge sustaining mode would be around 50 mpg.


  328. 328
    Noel Park

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:44 pm)

    Thanks DonC. I agree.


  329. 329
    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:44 pm)

    I submit you were never conservative if you accepted it was the right of either one to pick your pocket for either alternative.

    When I realized that there was no alternative to having my pocket picked, I gave up on that front. I tried being a Libertarian for a while, but being part of a fringe group has its disadvantages.

    So, given all of that, I had to choose: war, or social services for people less fortunate than myself. I’ll take the social services, thankyouverymuch, and I feel good about that decision.


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    DonC

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:48 pm)

    Not sure exactly what you mean. If the cars are plugged in then for both vehicles the battery will be conditioned by the grid, so to speak. If the cars aren’t plugged in then I can imagine other conditions in which the EREV genset will condition the battery, but I’ve always thought that was supposedly an advantage.


  331. 331
    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:51 pm)

    Analogies…I love ‘em.

    You guys are dancing around the real issues here…Price, Perfromance, and Price. A mainstream high volume new cars are around $20K, but we will use your lowest number of $30K. If the price($30K) was the same for a BEV 100 AER and a Volt, the Volt wins due to performance.

    What matters…
    Is their a higher chance that momma will be stuck on the side of the highway with kids in the backseat because she has more pressing matters on her mind than plugging in a vehicle EVERY SINGLE night?

    C’mon guys…if you forget gasoline the night before…so what? Just get it in the morning. Not an option with a pure BEV. It is called Charge Time Anxiety (CTA). How much is no CTA worth to you?


  332. 332
    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (4:58 pm)

    I would never travel with a pure electric except for around home.

    I think everyone agrees on that point, even the people who want BEVs.

    The fact is that different people have different usage patterns for their vehicles, and different needs. So, just ’cause it won’t work for you doesn’t mean it won’t be ideal for someone else with different goals.


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    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:00 pm)

    That brings up the question and it may have been covered before. Will the Volt keep the battery warm in really cold conditions when charging?

    My point was basically that the Volt was designed to start the genset to warm the batt pack when it’s cold. I would think even if it was plugged, then unplugged to leave the house, that the genset would kick in to keep the micro climate ideal for the LiMn cells.


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    DonC

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:06 pm)

    Nah, the opposite. The vast majority of serious scientists think global warming is real and that the science is good. There are, however, several parts to this. First there is the question of whether human activity is increasing the C02 the atmosphere. Then there is the question of whether this will lead to the warming. And then there is the question of whether this will be bad or good.

    I was just saying that people don’t believe “global warming” is real. If they did then they’d be more concerned. And given that they aren’t buying into the idea of global warming, even when you have experts saying that it is, I can’t see anything Bob Lutz says as making any difference whatsoever.


  335. 335
    Jerry

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:11 pm)

    I wont believe it until someone puts in one gallon of gas and drives the Volt 230 miles.


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    Luke

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:14 pm)

    The LEAF and the Volt are different tools for different jobs. The age of one-size-fits-all is over.


  337. 337
    Jerry

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:14 pm)

    Charge time anxiety? Range anxiety? I think you guys just need to stay at home and maybe take some anti anxiety meds. Us adventurous types will be out driving our BEVs without a care in the world.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:16 pm)

    OK I’m slow, but Why?


  339. 339
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:22 pm)

    There will never be a $30k VOLT.
    There could be a $25 to $29k Cruze with a Gen 2 Voltec drivetrain, or with luck, a full BEV system.

    When GM succeeds in increasing the AER or decreasing their overall costs on the battery pack, that does not mean VOLT price will drop. Everyone here knows the first ones off the line are being sold at a loss. No, they will keep the same price and try to make a profit. Some… Small… Profit.

    Show me an all-electric Cruze around $25k. I’ll take it.
    Better yet, a BEV conversion kit for my Vette for around $15k.
    That would be really cool.


  340. 340
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:23 pm)

    Show the stats on entrepreneurs that have put 100 million of their own dollars into starting a car company, (starting long before any investors signed up-I’ll omit this one to make it easier). Long list?


  341. 341
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:25 pm)

    That’s where personal responsibility needs to come in. For my purpose a BEV will charge at home and at work. Moma’s not driving it. It’s purpose is for my commute. Our ICE car will be for whatever. Family school and wifes work is all within 24 mile of home and work. The BEV has it’s specific puropse and nobody is out of reach of the 100 AER. So it doesn’t suite you, big friggin deal, don’t get one. But don’t assume that because it doesn’t suite you or your range anxiety it’s a bad idea or not for the general public. I know many that would buy one and are waiting for one and indicate they want to use no gas. Some drive over 40 AER and yet still desire a BEV. There’s a large market for a BEV and when they start coming, the market will show what was really needed. The Volt and a BEV commuter have differen’t market demographics.


  342. 342
    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:30 pm)

    Well thats true.. how about a different ending.. both eco warrior drivers go past the gas station, the Volt driver is worried that someone took up his parking spot with the charging plug at work.. and perhaps not allowing him enough juice to make it back home.. he may have to do some horse trading at lunch time to borrow a couple of cups of gas.. meanwhile the Leaf driver knows he has enough to get back to his own home and his own charging infrastructure (plug) .

    Yeah, I know.. dont get a job writing ads :)


  343. 343
    Joe

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:35 pm)

    Let’s see if Tesla can last as long as GM.


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:38 pm)

    Once nice thing about the Prius is that it’s socially acceptable to take it to some fancy place with the in-laws, where most people are “expected” drive luxury cars. Take a Prius, and they think you’re properly greenwashed — and not a cheapskate who prefers to drive a well-worn hatchback.

    Suits me fine! That car just keeps saving us money…. :-)


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    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:40 pm)

    Thanks, Jim I.
    That’s JUST enough information.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:42 pm)

    Capt re battery warm up:
    Yes.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  347. 347
    Herm

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:43 pm)

    I wonder who will be the first one to blog carrying a portable generator in the trunk of his Leaf.. I have two of them, I might be tempted to get a small utility trailer just to get the picture published :)


  348. 348
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:46 pm)

    Sadly,
    I went to several and all plead ignorance (successfully). Static diod the same – with the same results. To be fair I made my rounds a while back, but come on, people.
    Sheeesh.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  349. 349
    Bob G

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:48 pm)

    There must be a thousand places on this web site where people discuss the benefits of the EREV technology in the Volt over the parallel hybrid technology in the Prius. And the discussion about quality is popular also.

    Perhaps “Frank” is lazy, cannot read, or is just trolling.


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    Eat This Pie

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:48 pm)

    Looks nice. It kinda reminds me of the Volvo Recharge concept car from a couple years back?


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    Joe

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:52 pm)

    If the EPA ratings are high for the Volt, I hope Toyota and the rest don’t cry foul because the formula applies to all. GM did not cry foul when the Prius got rated so high.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:53 pm)

    Oh, fiddle smiddle, get with the program, humor impairment never helped anybody.


  353. 353
    Joe

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:54 pm)

    Where is Statik?


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    Herm

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:57 pm)

    This mindset of superfast recharges is a leftover of 100 years of ICE cars, why would you want a fast charge when you can charge it in the convenience of your home?.. why would you want a 200 mile range when you are going to charge it the moment you get home?

    Yeah, yeah… you want to go visit aunt Petunia every couple of years and she lives 300 miles away.. take a Greyhound.


  355. 355
    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:59 pm)

    I got the impression that plugging in will handle all conditioning needs for overnight parking. Don’t know how I got this impression, but I definitely don’t recall anything on extended parking while plugged in, say at an airport parking lot as an example.


  356. 356
    Exp_EngTech

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (5:59 pm)

    I saw “Moon” Saturday.

    An interesting movie. Better than I expected.

    If you’re into Sci-Fi, go see it.

    It will make you think about the future.


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    Herm

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:00 pm)

    $6 a gallon gas will make a lot of people think..


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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:06 pm)

    Hydrogen is clearly the next big thing, electric cars clearly can’t compete ;) In a city with cold winters, say like Toronto for example, using batteries would be futile except for going down the street and back.

    Jackson – Hope that helps:)


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:14 pm)

    Jerry,

    Add some conditions though. If they drive 44 miles each day and park the car to get a good nights rest, repeating this until they get to 230 miles, it fits your conditions as stated at 5:11 pm


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:18 pm)

    I’ll take Mr. Fusion as my 1st choice any day :)


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:23 pm)

    Jeff,

    That’s great progress, we’ve worn you down to “charge time anxiety” from range anxiety. Be careful before you know it you’ll be saying in a trance-like-zombie voice BEV’s are good, BEV’s are good…

    Great name by the way; casual and fun loving, yet still powerful and authoritative.


  362. 362
    Jeff

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:25 pm)

    That’s where personal responsibility needs to come in.
    ————————–
    No doubt…my faith in the general public is less than yours when it comes to planning daily transportation around life’s events and the tolerance for occasional departures from the norm.

    Scenario for a family: Forgot to plug in last night 50 miles AER left since you had some errands last night. Commute into work 10 miles one way…go out to a lunch meeting with the guys 10 miles round trip…teacher calls from school with sick kid 10 miles to school (wife is not answering cell phone or is unavailable)…10 miles to doctor’s office…and hopefully just 10 miles to pickup the prescribed meds and back home.

    Just “plug in” (pun intended) any events in the above scenario that could happen to you. I’ve driven well over a 50 miles in one day due to unforeseen events…I do not have any of the mentioned responsibilities except errands and lunch with the guys…and live within one mile of work.

    Hey…everyone is different. But I would call a person a BEV enthusiast that would accept this challenge in stride. Maybe more exist than I know. :)


  363. 363
    Bob G

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:25 pm)

    If the Volt doesn’t go at least 40 miles at typical highway speeds (60-70 MPH), then it could be a problem.


  364. 364
    Exp_EngTech

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:27 pm)

    LauraM wrote:

    “Governor Blagojevich didn’t get away with selling Obama’s senate seat at least partially because of the Chicago Tribune.”

    Hmmmm…..
    You seem to forget that the Trib “plowed the field” for Obama in the Senate run by taking out Ryan.


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    Joe

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:27 pm)

    Batteries lose a lot of power when cold. Let’s see how well these batteries, from other companies, last w/o proper conditioning. GM’s battery pack is built to last. The extra money that GM is spending to control the battery environment, is a wise investment. These other companies batteries will not last in harsh environments.


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    Bob G

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:33 pm)

    I cannot wait for the day that fast charge stations are more common than gas stations. This will make pure BEVs preferrable. Meanwhile, I’ll want an EREV.


  367. 367
    YOKAHAMA MAMA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:37 pm)

    THE VOLT IS MUCH TOO HEAVY.
    MUST CARRY WEIGHT OF HUGE GAS ENGINE.
    MUST CARRY WEIGHT OF HUGE GAS TANK.
    TOO MUCH WEIGHT = POOR HANDLING.
    VOLT IS LITTLE CAR THAT DRIVE LIKE A TANK.
    VOLT NO GOOD WITH 40 MILE ELECTRIC RANGE.
    VOLT MUCH TOO PRICEY. CANNOT JUSTIFY PRICE. YOU CRAZY.
    LYLE HAS MINI WITH NO RANGE PROBLEM. NO DEAD MINI. YOU CRAZY.
    VOLT NOT WORTH EXTRA COST FROM MINI SMART, LEAF.
    VOLT MAKE NO SENSE FOR YOKAHAMA MAMA.
    VOLT BE NICHE ONLY. NO VOLT FOR MASSES.
    BOB MAXIMAN NEED ORIGINAL VOLT CONCEPT BACK.
    TESLA S SHOULD HAVE BEEN VOLT. TOO BAD GM.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:37 pm)

    Good point a lot of mainstream players in the market will do a tremendous amount to build up awareness and confidence.


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    Herm

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:38 pm)

    they all use different plugs, should not be too hard to make or buy adapters. I want the inductive charging pad that goes on the garage floor..


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    old man

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:39 pm)

    In time that will be correct. But, now is not that time.


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    Bob G

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:41 pm)

    The 787 is the Dreamliner, not the 777.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:43 pm)

    I was under the impression that the Nissan charging stations that are being built with govt funds could NOT be used with the Volt. I thought that the Amps were too high. Shrug.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  373. 373
    Bob G

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:44 pm)

    Instead of 230, what if it is 23 and a plug (i.e., an electric car for $23,000)?

    Naaaa … too good to be true.


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    Herm

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:50 pm)

    This would be a perfect DARPA project, develop an efficient and inexpensive wireless charging system (the regular electric toothbrush charger type is in-efficient) that the whole country can standardize on, and dont charge royalties to the manufacturers.

    Here are my ideas for the Darpa competition:
    1. Below the ground pad, deep enough to be vandal proof.
    2. Automatic metering of power and billing.
    3. safe.
    4. efficient, around 95% is reasonable.
    5. low copper content to discourage theft.

    The second Darpa contest can be to develop wireless power transfer for a MOVING car.


  375. 375
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (6:56 pm)

    Hey Tag,

    The charging station plug ought to be the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) industry standard specification (fits all).

    A charging station anywhere ought to have that same plug.

    The Volt will automatically sense what voltage is available and adjust for it.

    Available Amps, if higher than what the Volt needs, would be just fine.

    On another item.

    Tag,
    Do you know WHAT TIME the news conference is going to be tomorrow? It was not listed in yesterdays thread.


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    Jerry

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:02 pm)

    Nice, Volvo puts out a great product so I’m sure this BEV will be no different.


  377. 377
    LauraM

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:04 pm)

    I think corvette drivers tend to be mainly interested in looks, power, and performance. And they’re mostly in the income bracket where the price of gasoline doesn’t matter.

    Some Corvette drivers might be tempted by the converj though if GM can get 0-60 to under 7 seconds. I would think that the instantaneous torque would appeal to them…


  378. 378
    Bob G

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:06 pm)

    It’s amazing how much you know about the Volt! Please share with us the data that you used to reach your conclusions.

    - How much does the “much too heavy” car weigh?

    - How much does the “huge” gas engine weigh?

    - How many gallons fit in the “huge” gas tank?

    - What is “poor” about the handling? Lyle drove it and came to a different conclusion.

    - What is the price?


  379. 379
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:06 pm)

    Dan,
    I asked Lyle directly and he said “8:30 or 9:30 Eastern”. The news tonight said they’d be announcing sales on Ebay (That doesn’t sound “big enough” for all the hub-bub).
    Can’t wait until tomorrow,
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Jerry

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:07 pm)

    Ok, let me amend that. I wont believe it until someone puts in a gallon of gas an drives 230 miles nonstop.


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:11 pm)

    Tag,

    That was AM or PM?


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    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:15 pm)

    8AM Eastern.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:16 pm)

    Bright and early (AM).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:18 pm)

    Doesn’t E-Bay get something like 10%? I’ve never used it.

    I wonder how many of what types of vehicles will be placed there?


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    Lev

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:19 pm)

    Well-said


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    Jim in PA

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:20 pm)

    Personally, I keep my hair tightly cropped and my nails clipped short to ensure the very best hyper-miling. I also have kept all my very skinny ties from the 1980s, unlike you heavy wide-tied gas guzzlers from the 1970s. And finally, I find that I get very good fuel efficiency when I keep my tires pressurized above 175 psi. Anyone who does less than me may as well be making sweet love to Osama Bin Laden!


  387. 387
    solo

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:22 pm)

    I said it before and I’ll say it again.

    Electric vehicles will be a nitch market and will never be a major player until

    A: you can drive one 350 miles without recharging.
    B: You can recharge it at a station of some sorts in 5 minutes.

    Until then, there aren’t enough urban yuppie tree huggers in the country to make it a mass market car. No sane man is going to put his wife and kids in a car that can’t be refueled on the road and doesn’t have a reasonable range. Few people are going to spend 20, 30, 40 grand on a car that can’t be taken on an extended drive on the weekend. I know many many people here think otherwise, but even if gas goes to 4 or 5 dollars a gallon, people need range. They can’t change their lifestyle so dramatically to make a short range electric car usable.

    Remember, the people here on this web sight do not represent the majority of the population. We (us guys and gals who follow this blog), are excited about the Volt and other electric-ish cars for a variety of reasons. But most people could care less and they are not willing to spend a huge amount of cash on a car that is less capable than a cheaper car. That is why the Volt type vehicle makes so much since. I wish Nissan well but they will not sell their electric only car with a real world 50 to 75 mile range to hoards of people.

    Someone mentioned that electric cars will be much more reliable than gas/diesel powered cars. I say they have the POTENTIAL to be more reliable but car makers will do their engineering magic, and components will only be built to last 100,000 or so miles. Motor bearings, brushes, controllers, batteries, wiring, etc will all need to be replaced at some point.


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    Jim in PA

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:29 pm)

    Kinda like Toyota dissing lithium batteries until about 6 months ago….


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    Brian

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (7:38 pm)

    I agree. I don’t need 700 miles and I would never buy a car based on this issue alone. I have a Solara that gets me 400 miles on a tank and that is more than enough. I just took a trip across Florida and there was a gas station every 30 miles. Even when I drive across Arizona and New Mexico, there is never a longer stretch than 100 miles without a gas station. There were tradeoffs associated with the tank size on the Volt to include weight and space. I think their strategy and decision was sound.


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    Exp_EngTech

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:03 pm)

    LauraM wrote:
    “….But you need to compensate the rest of us for it.”

    Compensate the rest of us? Compensate? Pretty scary talk.

    Ahh……
    Speaking of “Rights”….do you believe Healthcare is a right ?


  391. 391
    Geronimo

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:04 pm)

    What a joke: pointing out Australian Rupert Murdochs Fox News as an example of “the American sprit of self-dependence, rugged individualism and courageous entrepreneurship.”

    Murdoch’s corporations News Corp. just lost $3.4 billion in the fiscal year ended June 30. Looks like his ‘news’ is not succeeding in “The Market”. His rightwing opinions are not making him money in the West anymore, perhaps his new ventures peddling leftwing opinions in China will net him better profits.


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:04 pm)

    Sounds like a job for “Mythbusters.”


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    250 volts

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:05 pm)

    Misguided or misinformed, it’s a horrible affliction to go thru life with either


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:08 pm)

    I was responding to “Joe Destiny” (“JD”), not the lead commentor for this sub-thread (once again, this multi-threaded spaghetti is excessively confusing).


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    250 volts

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:08 pm)

    Tsk, tsk, tsk Why must we take the political road ???


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    stuart22

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:14 pm)

    Just see what happens when put up/shut up time comes for them…. when the decision is to be made to plunk down on the table $20K of their savings for something of marginal utility, with only 30% of the range of the cars they are used to driving and which takes 30 times longer to refuel. Some bargain, you betcha! My guess is that no more than 5% of the BEV chest beaters would push their stack of bills across the table into the sweaty hands of the salesman.

    Me – I’ll spend the extra $$ for the convenience and security and long range offered by the Volt.


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    Me Here

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:16 pm)

    in the winter, with the heat on, up and down hills? At 50% SOC and one more errand to run? Maybe AAA will have a special BEV membership at twice the price … I don’t mean to be cross, but ‘without a care in the world’ is a BOLD statement …


  398. 398
    Dave G

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:20 pm)

    solo says: Electric vehicles will be a nitch market and will never be a major player until
    A: you can drive one 350 miles without recharging.
    B: You can recharge it at a station of some sorts in 5 minutes.

    —————————————-
    I agree. And I agree with your other points as well.

    And I’ll go one further: It is not possible to charge a BEV-350 in 5 minutes.

    In order to do that, you would need half mega-watt connection. This is a huge amount of power. It’s not possible to make this type of connection safely, even in dry weather. When it’s raining or snowing outside, it gets even worse. If there is an inch of snow stuck to your car, dripping all over the place, it doesn’t matter if the charging station has a roof or not.

    Many people say that new technology can sole this problem, but this problem has to do with simple physics. Technology won’t solve it. The dream of fast-charging stations everywhere – that’s a nice dream, but it will never happen.


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:21 pm)

    He’s made what he claims is ‘the last sign-off’ (though he might pop up for the occasional landmark event, he said).


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    Jackson

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:22 pm)

    See, statik? We’re all agreeing with DonC! See what happens when you go away?


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    Exp_EngTech

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:25 pm)

    “Died of shame.”

    Pretty Funny!

    Most people didn’t know the real Walter.

    There was that “Norman Cousins” Award……


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    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:37 pm)

    Voluntary retirement. It was taking up too much of his time.

    You must have missed his Opus. It’s in this thread, top-level post #3:
    http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/04/image-black-volt-center-stack/


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    Volt45

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:39 pm)

    Not to mention that if fast charging stations are built for convenience of use, they will add to daytime peak use, necessitating expansion of power generation capacity, not making more efficient use of the capacity we have. (And I don’t think solar or wind will cut it yet.)
    This is not exactly “environmentally friendly.”


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:45 pm)

    Jason,

    I agree with you and Jim in PA.

    And add it’s like Toyota announcing they will have a low cost fuel cell car in 2015. It also freezes consumers and gets them thinking I shouldn’t get a 30 to 45 thousand dollar car in 2011 because something low cost and much better could be out in 2015.


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    Me Here

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:46 pm)

    can’t be 230 dealers, note the plug …


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    Volt45

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:46 pm)

    Electricity merit badge.
    I remember and recognize it.


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    canehdian

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:52 pm)

    I think the main problem is GM marketing the volt as an EV..
    I mean, sure it uses only electric drive, but deep down, it is still a hybrid.
    (it contains the components of a gas car along with the electric car)

    They shouldn’t be focusing on calling it an EV, and more on it being a hybrid which doesn’t use gas for the first 40 miles.

    That is, if they want to have the masses understand.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:52 pm)

    “Chevy Volt: The electric car that goes as long as you want it to.”

    Groan… I suppose taste in prose is in the ear of the beholder :)

    NPNS


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    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:54 pm)

    Broken caps-lock much?

    Stop shouting please.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (8:58 pm)

    Frank,
    I agree with one thing, yes please do the cradle to grave analysis, I’d really like to see that.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Aug 10th, 2009 (9:09 pm)

    “What if your on the highway with a traffic jam, bumper to bumper”…..Regen would likely get you better miles than you expected in your addled extreme range anxiety state.

    I don’t get why you have so much fear on behalf of people that feel a BEV would work for them, are smart enough to tell the difference, and organized enough to have the confidence to integrate a BEV into their daily driving needs.


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