A mysterious viral advertising campaign has surfaced on television and the Internet this week, which has been further amplified over the blogosphere. In fact, flickr, facebook , YouTube, and blog sites have surface around it.
A simple green background shows the number 230, with a winking electric outlet instead of the zero. Below is the date 8-11.
AdAge determined that the source of the campaign is none other than GM, but the automaker and its ad agencies won’t say what it means.
Speculation has varied on its meaning from the MPG of the Buick plug-in to the MPG of the Volt or even something to do with charging at 220V.
GM is holding a press conference in Detroit on August 11th, and yes I will be there.
Reports quote sources as saying the number will be the Volt’s official MPG rating, but how they came to it remains a mystery; highway, city, average, none of the above? And if so how was it calculated? The EPA city cycle is 11.04 miles, the highway cycle is 10.26 miles. The car goes 40 mile without any gas, and 78% of drivers drive less than 40 miles per day (utility factor). Do your own math.
Here’s my guess:
I heard of a method to determine the MPG of an EREV; first the car is driven from a full battery until it reaches charge-sustaining mode, then one more cycle is driven. If we use the highway schedule, the first 40 miles are electric. One more cycle is 11 more miles. If the Volt gets 50 MPG in charge sustaining mode, it will use .22 gallons of gas for that 11 miles. Thus 51 miles/.22 gallons = 231.8 MPG.
We can have fun guessing for now, but be sure to logon to GM-Volt.com on Tuesday morning and we will have the answer as soon as it hits.
Plus, if you have any questions you want me to ask the Volt team and execs while I am there, leave them in the comments.
Source (AdAge)
[UPDATE: The method referred to to measure the efficiency of an EREV is far more complex and still under development. Though my calculation came out similar the methodology GM actually used to determine the MPG was different. See this post.]
This entry was posted on Saturday, August 8th, 2009 at 8:20 am and is filed under Advertising, Efficiency, Marketing. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Aug 8th, 2009 (8:22 am)Exciting times! I have my thinking cap on for questions to be asked.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (8:36 am)Maybe release date of Monday March 29th – 230 days from now?
$23,000 Price? Under-promise, over-deliver! 8/11 release date?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (8:39 am)23. It’s the dreaded 23 again! This is not good. For those who do not know what I’m talking about go out and rent the move 23. Just be careful.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (8:47 am)Wrong marketing pict selection, a NEMA 5-15R is not for 230/1/60
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (8:50 am)Very cool.
Being the marketing guy and not an engineer like most of you here, I would say that the smiley face “zero” plug is an indicator that the number 230 is the estimated cost of electricity per year that the VOLT will use on average. (if I’m wrong I know it won’t take long for someone to post the math for it.)
I recall there was a posting here that the new EPA window stickers would show a new formula for MPG and electricity cost. I think the number 230 will be the latter.
Place your bets!
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Aug 8th, 2009 (8:51 am)texas,
I saw the ads for that movie and that was spooky enough. This receptacle looks pretty friendly though (g). And it winks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (8:52 am)What’s a NEMA?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (8:58 am)To do the math, a critical piece is missing. Once the battery is depleted, what are the city and highway mileages running on the ICE range extender?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (8:59 am)The National Electrical Manufacturers Association or NEMA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA
http://www.nema.org/prod/pwr/connect/
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:01 am)Another smiley face plug
http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/images/logo_mieux_consommer.gif
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:02 am)Corvetteguy,
This sounds reasonable. At least Tuesday’s not too far away.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:03 am)Lyle, you could ask how the energy grants/recent board meetings have changed their plans for early Volt roll out as far as time frame and numbers. Some of us are dreaming of being one of the first 500 who get to be one of the Volt beta testers (as I’m sure you are too). They’ll probably not have a comment, but maybe.
I’m also still curious if they’ll ever offer a 110V outlet in the Volts, giving the user experience a whole new feel when they can charge their mobile devices, mp3 players, laptops, etc. etc., all this for just a couple of dollars worth of hardware…
This might be clear to others, but are the Volts going to be able to access the same “quick charge” stations that Nissan is building in preparation for their EVs (the ones that you mentioned recently) and if so, what is GM doing to further this cause? We heard they are working with utility companies, whatever that means, are they just “raising awareness” or something while Nissan is actually making tangible progress? (reeks of old GM allowing the Japanese to be the leader in their own country)
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:04 am)Thanks! Learn something new everyday.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:09 am)omni,
All great questions! The “if” the public will get to be beta testers (as opposed to just GM employees), and the “if yes”, how would they be chosen? The “drool factor” on this is enormous! (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (9:10 am)230 could easily be the MPG for the Volt, calculated on an average American’s yearly usage.
I know I will get at least that much based on my 35 mile round-trip commute to work, and a few trips a year to the airport when my kids visit.
The government (EPA, etc.) has all kind of statistics for driving, and they can figure this stuff out.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:14 am)Here is another link of interest:
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090807/CARNEWS/908079985
My speculation is that the Volt will have an EPA highway rating of 230 mpg. Now let me explain why I believe this.
See this analysis that I put in the forum some months ago:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2541
In one link, two engineers from NREL (National Renewable Energy Laboratory) described a methodology for determining equivalent gas mileage for plug-in vehicles. I examined how the Volt would likely compare, and determined an overall composite fuel economy of 148 mpg.
However, I have revisited my calculations to see if the Volt could achieve 230 mpg. If the Volt in the mild highway cycle (average 48.3 mph) only needs 135 Wh/mile, and GM has overdelivered on the battery pack (10 kW usable), this equates to ~75 miles AER. Since most drivers drive less than this each day, the test equates a Utility Factor (UF) of 0.7 for this AER value (think of it as a probability of whether you will drive gas-free on any given day).
Next, with a 36% efficient ICE, the 33.44 kWh in a gallon of gasoline converts to 12.04 kWh. So at 135 Wh/mile, this equates to 89 mpg.
Thus highway mileage is determined by driving one electric cycle until the ICE kicks in (75 miles) and then driving the same distance in CS (charge sustaining) mode. At 89 mpg for 75 miles, gas consumption is .84 gallons. However, there is also the utility factor that comes into play, and preliminary calculated mpg is 89/(1-UF) or 89/0.3 = 297 mpg. The EPA has determined that this is not an accurate rating, and has reduced it by 22% to reflect real world figures.
Thus the rating becomes 230 mpg!
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:16 am)Does anyone here know how soon the EPA does their mileage testing before a vehicle’s release? I’m trying to figure out if the timing is right for that 230 mpg guess (whether that testing would have been done yet).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (9:21 am)It must mean I will get a Volt, because 230 is the exact A/C current used here, and Europe, and Japan, and Australia.
Seriously, I think it has something to do with the Volt’s charging capabilities.
As to questions. I will spend 90% of my year NOT using any gas at all. Can the car be programed so the generator turns the ICE over for 10 – 20 seconds every time I plug in to recharge, in order to keep it lubed?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:22 am)The volt will not be rated at 230 mpg.
If the numbers were meant to convey a short recharge cycle they would be 220 8pm-11pm (3 hours).
An NGMCO ‘green’ campaign to produce 23 plug in models by 08/2011.
=D~
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:23 am)Oh, and just a note to newbies on this site – you can figure out your mileage on any given trip with the Volt by using this formula:
MPG = 50XM/(M-40)
The “50″ is the supposed MPG Volt when it is in range-extending mode.
The “40″ is the all electric range after charging up.
M is the miles you travel on your trip – just put in the figure.
So, let’s say you travel 55 miles after charging.
50 x 55 = 2750
55 – 40 = 15
2750 divided by 15 = 183
183 is your MPG for that trip.
Again your mileage my vary, depending on how you drive.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:23 am)BillR,
And I thought *I* was the resident optimist (g). Freeing up 2 more KWh on the battery is an interesting hypothesis (and you may be totally correct), but it’d take the whole series of “if’s” to come out with the 230. Can you imagine the sales pitch that that would make though!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (9:27 am)NZDavid,
There was talk of the engine running occasionally automatically while the car was in motion, to avoid fumes in a garage (I think).
See, I told you miracles could happen. Let me know when your beta arrives (lol). They could “sell” a whole nation!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-1
Aug 8th, 2009 (9:27 am)I don’t think this particular promotion is thinking about the range extension part of it.
While it is true that the ICE will eliminate “range anxiety”, (which I still believe is only a temporary condition based on a fear of the unknown), for advertising purposes I am very sure that GM will be focusing on the “average daily work commute” for 78% of Americans.
The main concept of EREV is running the car on electricity. And THEN it just so happens to have a range extending ICE. If the GM marketing people are worth their paychecks, they will be hammering the “uses no gas for your daily commute” phrase in every TV and radio spot until your sick of hearing it.
“Perception is Reality”. When it comes to the masses, if you hear it on TV often enough that something is really great, eventually they will start to believe it. How else do you think Obama got elected President?
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (9:28 am)Note also that the closer your miles traveled is to the “40″ the closer your MPG is to infinite.
To make the point, in the above 55 mile trip you get 183 MPG, but if you travel just 5 miles less, ie. 50, you get:
50 x 50 = 2500
50 – 40 =10
2500 divided by 10 = 250
Your MPG for the 50 mile trip would be 250.
Calculate for a 45 mile trip and you get a whopping 450 MPG!
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (9:31 am)I’m also still curious if they’ll ever offer a 110V outlet in the Volts, giving the user experience a whole new feel when they can charge their mobile devices, mp3 players, laptops, etc. etc., all this for just a couple of dollars worth of hardware
Excellent question. I too maintain that GM should do this as a marketing strategy, as NO other platform can do this as of right. For a normal ICE it would involve a new heavy duty alternator. For a pure BEV it would diminish range to much. Nope for any road warrior the EREV is the way to go.
In the event of a power outage, I could plug my fridge into it for several hours a day to keep things frozen. etc.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:32 am)I knew one of you would post the math why I was wrong. (see above)
Us car guys just can’t count above 10 without taking our shoes off ‘ya know’d.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:35 am)If you take the 50mpg suggested for the Volt on the ICE, divide it by the percentage of time it might use the ICE (22%), you come up with 227mpg. This assumes the Volt will get 50 mpg and you drive it on battery power 78% of the time, which is close to how I would be driving it.
Spotter
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (9:37 am)I think the Volt may have two plugs so it can use both charges. I know it can sense the charge, but the plugs are different, no?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:37 am)The question I would like for you to ask is, How often will we at Gm-volt.com get updates regarding the 500 test Volt drivers opinion on their driving experience? Daily is most likely out of the question but I would hope at least weekly.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:43 am)my 2010 Fusion Hybrid does have a 110 Volt outlet … Not sure on the rating for it… I assume you could charge your laptop and other small units (don’t think the hair dryer will work tho)
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (9:44 am)the ICE can also crank over without fuel being injected, just to lube it up..
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:46 am)Yep there was. But I want the generator to turn the ICE over without using ANY fuel. It seems a simple algorithm to do it each time the car is plugged in would fit the bill just nicely.
NVPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:48 am)HA! Your tears sustain me.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:54 am)“However, I have revisited my calculations to see if the Volt could achieve 230 mpg. If the Volt in the mild highway cycle (average 48.3 mph) only needs 135 Wh/mile, and GM has overdelivered on the battery pack (10 kW usable), this equates to ~75 miles AER. ”
By GMs definition the Volt can do 40 miles in the hwy cycle with 8kwh of battery capacity, thus it consumes a round 200 w/mile.. also GM is never going to open up the battery capacity past 50%.. unless they are getting really good news in the battery testing dept.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (9:58 am)OH God, here we go again.
230 is prob the MPG. I really wish they would just separate the #’s, or list it as Gallons per mile. If u want to 40 miles, 0 gallons.. and so on.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:00 am)While you’re at it Lyle, just ask it you will be one of the 500, and you can report to us directly.
And have you given any thought to what the Volt users section of the website will look like?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:05 am)If i add 230 days to 11 August, i get 29 March 2010. I wonder if it represents some sort of count-down to release to Manufacture dead-line for volt.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:06 am)I think its the exact opposite. The main concept of a BEV is running on electricity. The main concept of a EREV is the extended range. So I would argue the MPG in extended mode is the most important thing.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:06 am)I should have specified a normal household 15Amp outlet.
For me that would be at 230 Volts as well. Heck, I could run my hot water system off it (only draws 9Amps continuous).
Still points to the Fusion Hybrid for including a plug.
NO Voltec Plug, NO Sale
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-2
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:07 am)Electricity isn’t free, you can’t leave that out of your equation.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:09 am)Didn’t the ugliest car on the planet have one? (Aztec)
If the Volt doesn’t have one just get a power inverter and plug it into the cig lighter. They cost about $25 for a 250 watt inverter that will power your laptop, mp3 or other small electronics.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:11 am)Good point kdawg.
The last few Volt photos we have seen show temporary rear spoiler configurations and a racing nose dam up front. We saw a comment posted 6 months ago saying NGMCO is pleased with battery performance. And another, 2 months ago, stating that NGMCO is meeting the battery range goals.
Mr. Henderson said his company will listen closely and act quickly. This is why I feel the “23 plug in 8-11″ ad means “twenty three plug in models in the showroom August 2011″. I would have guessed 12 models, but 23 is doable with a focused effort. Can you think of a better way for NGMCO to take the lead and hold it?
=D~
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:13 am)90% sounds pretty good. What’s your MPG? Assuming 40mi/50mpg, I’m sitting at 314mpg,without adding KWh equivalents but scheduling far more long trips than I make (since I may be more apt to take them with the Volt).
Anyway, it wouldn’t be the end of the world for the ICE to kick on every couple days. An occasional lubing never hurt anybody.
And the press conference? They’re going to announce 230mpg and the 500 consumer test fleet. Lyle gets a call during the read, and… you can guess the rest. LGTVWOTR!
NPNS!!! =D~~~
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:19 am)Since the main selling point is the EREV lets figure the mileage on a 400 mile trip. Assuming 45MPG in ICE mode.
The total MPG for the trip is 50 MPG. No where close to the 230 number.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:30 am)I know it is beating a dead horse, but please ask them if a sunroof will be an option? MANY hate the fact that cars like the Prius & the Insight offer no sunroof just to eek out a few more mpg, or ev range.
The EV shouldn’t be about sacrifices, but options. Please ask if it will be optional for those who would want it, and not be trapped under a carpeted dull roof.
Thanks!
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:34 am)- 230 MPG for the Volt
- 230 miles range with full charge and fuel tank for the Volt
- 230 days until release of the Volt
- 230 dealers that will sell & service the Volt for 1st model year
- 230 pre-Production Volts built
- 2:30pm is time of GM press conference on 8/11
- 230 dollars of electricity per year average for Volt
- 230% more MSRP for Volt than the Prius (sorry hardcore Volt fans)
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:34 am)Remember the SAE J1772 EV conductive charge coupler?
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/16/plug-standard-needed-for-electric-car-charging-cord-interface-sae-j1772/
http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/saej1772/
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/sae-hybrid-standards-20090423.html
I hope only “1″ standard will emerge, no need for another Beta\VHS battlefield:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/elektromotive-mennekes-20090515.html
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+6
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:35 am)Drop your racist tone.
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-13
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:36 am)(click to show comment)
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:37 am)In the eyes of GM engineers, this is a very minor problem to solve. They are many good and easy solutions to this problem.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:37 am)If you are right, then I hope the “230″ is the miles-per-gallon based on the new EPA testing parameters.
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-18
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:38 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:40 am)Now that the govt is involved, we can be certain it’ll be uniform, er, well it could happen…(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-1
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:44 am)- 230 billion dollars more needed for GM bailout (hey…not sorry on this one…and supposedly GM started this guessing game.)
- 230 days until GM pays back all government loans (a more positive outlook)
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:46 am)Using ALL my body parts I can count to 20 and 1/2!!
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-4
Aug 8th, 2009 (10:47 am)Who said anything even remotely racist?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (10:53 am)>> 230 miles range with full charge and fuel tank for the Volt
Boy, I sure hope not. That’d mean either lousy RE-mode mileage, or a REALLY tiny fuel tank.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (11:03 am)CorvetteGuy … “range anxiety”, (which I still believe is only a temporary condition based on a fear of the unknown).
It may be the NGMCO big wigs have alerted the dealers to throw in a good word for pure EV’s. This is understandable as NGMCO will be driving down BEV Street in 6-8 years.
In the meantime… trust me CorvetteGuy, range anxiety is not fun. Especially when it costs $30+ to own.
=D~
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-5
Aug 8th, 2009 (11:07 am)“Plus, if you have any questions you want me to ask the Volt team and execs while I am there, leave them in the comments.”
_______________________
Nissan has chosen their manufacturer for the ‘quick-charge’ station equipment. Has GM done the same yet? And, if so, who is it and what is the estimated cost for each station? Do you think the government will be assisting dealerships with the cost of one of those?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:11 am)I agree…
40 AER ? city/ ? highway MPG
AER (all electric range) should be part of the EPA rating. MPG should be using ONLY the energy source that is measured in GALLONS.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:12 am)Obviously the main point of an electric car is that you dont use gas.. doh!.. in the Volt you do use some once in a while but thats not important.
230 is the mpg equivalent of the Volt most of the time (in electric mode 78% of the time), probably an official EPA number that will be announced on tuesday. .. then more endless rehashing of this topic will happen again. God knows how they calculated it.. I could care less.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:14 am)I think you got it right..
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:18 am)- 230 tons of reduced carbon emissons for 1st model year fleet.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:19 am)I think it is GM promoting a charge supplied at 230 Volts
110 Volts common household voltage in USA
220 Volt line for charging the car . The same as the hot water tank and running the A/C .
115 Volts and 230 Volts are common in Canada
110 Volts and 220 Volts are common in USA
Both are 60 cycles and what will work on one will work on the other I think the difference is the number of windings in the residential step down transformer outside of the house .
230 Volts is a little stronger than 220 Volts too and the car would charge up a little sooner on 230 Volts , but not much sooner .
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (11:27 am)I’m a bit surprised no one has commented yet on our well-informed editor’s guess, as he explained it above….
“Mike Duoba from Argonne National Lab devised a method to determine the MPG of an EREV; first the car is driven from a full battery until it reaches charge-sustaining mode, then one more cycle is driven. If we use the highway schedule, the first 40 miles are electric. One more cycle is 11 more miles. If the Volt gets 50 MPG in charge sustaining mode, it will use .22 gallons of gas for that 11 miles. Thus 51 miles/.22 gallons = 231.8 MPG.”
Lyle, I’m “throwing my hat in your ring” for the following reasons: 1) Your facts & assumptions are clearly plausible; 2) I’m guessing you might have reached Mike Duoba or someone else at ANL (or GM) that offered this answer or at least good clues leading you to it; 3) I know you well enough to believe you wouldn’t make a WAG just to “seed” the blog discussions here; and 4) I’ve read thru a presentation by Duoba dealing with the procedures for determining the MPGs of E-REVS across the industry on an “equal playing field” basis ….and your guess doesn’t seem to conflict with anything in his presentation*
*http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf
[BTW, my question for GM next Tuesday is whether the Volt's accelerator pedal will allow the driver any kind of INSTANTANEOUS increase in torque to safely handle 2-lane hwy passing situations?]
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:28 am)Lyle if they are giving an official mpg, please ask GM what the Volt’s gas mileage is when it runs in charge-sustaining (ICE) mode.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:34 am)CorvetteGuy
“The main concept of EREV is running the car on electricity. And THEN it just so happens to have a range extending ICE. If the GM marketing people are worth their paychecks, they will be hammering the “uses no gas for your daily commute” phrase in every TV and radio spot until your sick of hearing it.”
I agree. 40 is the number! This will be compared to ie, PHEV Prius etal (bytheway, which I drive), which will have a range much shorter, ie 18 miles. So that is what people will be comparing first. Then, they want to know what is overall or city/highway miles afterwords, second. By the way, trying to educate people on e-rev vs parallel hybrid is a long uphill journey.
out of town. really slow connection.
As Tag would say it: LJGTVWOTG
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:34 am)If its not important why not have it be a BEV? The Volt is a hybrid, not an electric car.
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+4
Aug 8th, 2009 (11:38 am)Here’s a question for you to ask the Volt team:
What is the MPG in generator mode?
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (11:43 am)nasaman,
That all makes sense so that can’t be it (lol). Seriously, 230 mpg? Isn’t it really 50mpg in your statement above? It seems like one of those formulas that read “insert miracle here” and then the end result. The voltage seems like a pedestrian solution, so that might be it, but I doubt they’d flood the wave with ads about that. And then there’s the 8-11…..
PS I hope they are having Lyle out there to pick up a certificate that’s “Good for one VOLT (vehicle)”. One man CAN make a huge difference.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (11:46 am)I just want a USB port for charging devices and communicating to the cars computer and audio system.
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (11:47 am)Your lips to God’s ear on all counts. Can you imagine putting up with US for over 2.5 years AND publishing over 1000 articles here. I can’t. No one deserves one more than Lyle.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (11:49 am)We have 120/240, I thought it was the same for the US?
That’s also a pretty lame advertising campaign, lol. “We are rated 10 volts higher!”
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Aug 8th, 2009 (12:02 pm)Single phase 120/240VAC is standard in the US, also.
Amusing that the receptacle in the graphic is a NEMA 5-15R, for 120VAC only.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (12:05 pm)_____________________________________________________
230 = an EV Chevy Volt?
(EREV Chevy Volt) – (ICE) + (more battery) = EV Chevy Volt w/ 230 miles AER
_____________________________________________________
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:05 pm)It could be. Solar panels and windmills eventually pay for themselves
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Aug 8th, 2009 (12:08 pm)36% is a little high on the engine efficiency, don’t you think?
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:19 pm)From the article: Mike Duoba from Argonne National Lab devised a method to determine the MPG of an EREV; first the car is driven from a full battery until it reaches charge-sustaining mode, then one more cycle is driven. If we use the highway schedule, the first 40 miles are electric. One more cycle is 11 more miles. If the Volt gets 50 MPG in charge sustaining mode, it will use .22 gallons of gas for that 11 miles. Thus 51 miles/.22 gallons = 231.8 MPG.
———————————————-
This seems like a silly way to calculate gas usage.
The Volt gets 40 mile of all-electric range (AER), so let’s call that an EREV-40. If they came out with an EREV-80, does that mean people would typically drive twice as far? I doubt it. Or if they came out with an EREV-20, will people drive half as much? No.
The amount of miles people drive per day doesn’t really depend on what type of car they’re driving, it depends on their typical driving pattern.
For example, using a typical driving pattern of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
for a total of 11,390 total miles per year, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year …….. MPG
EREV-80 ……………. 22 ……………………… 513
EREV-40 ……………. 37 ……………………… 311
EREV-20 ……………. 98 ……………………… 116
Prius ………………… 228 …………………….. 50
30 MPG car ………… 380 …………………….. 30
20 MPG car ………… 570 …………………….. 20
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Aug 8th, 2009 (12:21 pm)Racist??? Are you kidding? How did you get racist out of that comment?
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:29 pm)I don’t know anything about 230 either.
All I can say for sure is that it comes between 229 & 231
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-1
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:32 pm)Don’t think so…becuase altough it would be a smart move for GM to make, GM is able able to make that kind of bold move.
Why a 230 mile EV Chevy would be a Smart Move:
* GM not nitching itself to only EREV.
* Although EREV will appeal to many consumers, EV will also appeal to manty others…why not get both types of customers?
* GM offering a EV Chevy Volt requires almost zero additonal development cost.
* GM escapes an EREV vs. EV label…becuase it offers both.
* Tesla Model S (advertising a 230 miles AER) is getting a BUNCH of cash deposit pre-orders.
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:32 pm)It has to be 230mpg, why would anyone care (and why would GM call a press conf.) to announce something related to 230v?
78% of US pop, 230m? As in for 230m people, no gas used in daily commute.
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-12
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:36 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:37 pm)Using Mike Duoba’s method:
Vehicle ……………… MPG
EREV-80 ……………. 414
EREV-40 ……………. 231
EREV-20 ……………. 141
So his method implies that the amount of all-electric range matters less. But when you actually calculate gas usage using a typical driving pattern, the amount of AER matters a significantly more.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (12:38 pm)Beating a dead horse is illegal in NYC. I will refer this case to the AG for possible prosecution. Beware that you do not have to be or live in New York for the long arm of the law to grab you and server justice. Drop the Animal Hate.
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:39 pm)Question: How will they pick the people who get to test the 500 test vehicles?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (12:43 pm)Typo Corrrection:
“GM is able able to make that kind of bold move.”
should read
“GM is NOT able able to make that kind of bold move.
Sorry about that.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:44 pm)“if you hear it on TV often enough that something is really great, eventually they will start to believe it. ”
Absolutely – how else could “compassionate conservative” or “Iraq war” etc could have been sold.
TV is the undoing of democracies.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (12:45 pm)Nice idea: I could mean the range of a new plug-in vehicle under electric power, that would definitely be something I’d buy if it was cheaper than the range extended model I REALLY want.
It could also be how many miles you get before the battery has issues and Bob Lutz appears in a cloud of smoke with his lawyer familiars to silence your heresy when you try to complain on the net.
Or it could really be , as has been suggested, the MPG rating, though that seems incredibly high. 100 MPG is considered the holy grail, so a 230 MPG number would be…unheard of, really. Unless they’ve equipped a solar roof that REALLY charges the thing on top of the best efficiency out of the range extender anyone’s ever seen, I think it’s a long shot.
I’ll be very curious about this! I’d love a 230 MPG car. Or a 230 mile electric. Heck, just give me a normal Volt and I’ll quit griping.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (12:46 pm)Question: Will GM engage with cities/states to get a charging network in place – like Nissan – or perhaps join forces with Nissan on this ?
Question 2 : Will the pricing of Nissan Leaf affect Volt’s price ?
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+4
Aug 8th, 2009 (12:50 pm)_________________________________________________________
Good points you made except that I beleive GM can be that Bold…they were Bold in doing the EREV Volt…at some point GM will put out an EV Volt…it’s not if but when…
_________________________________________________________
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:00 pm)230mpg is what can, charitably, be termed a [i]lie.[/i]
Can I put 2 gallons of gas in the vehicle, charge it and drive from The Twin Cities to Madison, WI, and back?
If the car truly gets 230mpg, sure (it’s 240 miles, you’d have 20 miles left over). But we all know that someone who tried this would end up getting stuck near Osseo on the first leg of the trip.
It’s a new kind of car, the old measurements don’t apply any more. Misleading the consumer isn’t going to win GM any business or the EPA any friends.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:02 pm)It costs me $.08 including taxes and fees cents per kWh. My total electricity bill is about $15-20 a month here in Corvallis Oregon, and that’s with me forgetting to turn the lights off a lot. If I charged 8kWh every day, it would cost me about $20 more a month.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix has a 110V outlet standard.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (1:09 pm)GM has stated they are not working on a BEV at this time.
Take it for what its worth (but i believe them).
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:11 pm)So 51 miles is the highway schedule??? What an odd # to choose to use.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:15 pm)Not likely. Why would GM want to make a big deal about THAT?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:15 pm)ARCH
How goes geothermal?
RB
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:22 pm)If the EPA city cycle is 11 miles, and if the Volt goes 40 miles electric, and then 11 more on gas, then that leaves about 4 miles to get back home. For those last 4 miles, does the driver walk? pushing the car? pushing at what speed? If the driver comes home without the car, does the test score still count? half-credit?
/ this is the most silly topic we have ever had
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:23 pm)The Prius does offer a sunroof. But it’s the solar gizmo and it’s fairly expensive, $3.6K. In theory, you can get it on a Group 3 Prius, base price $23K but I’ll bet you can’t find one with sunroof but without Nav for an additiional $1.8K, for a total of $28.4K.
I sure do like having a sunroof, but $28.4K is a little much.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:31 pm)Maybe it’s 230 smiles, for everyone on gm-volt, 23 for Tag for optimism.
Or maybe it 230 switches for all our bad behavior. Statik where are you?
Or maybe it is 230 miles to Kalazamoo, where all GM is going on vacation.
Or maybe …
/ Is all this dreamed up by new marketing maven Maximum Bob?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:34 pm)I drive 48 miles a day. The first ~40 technically would be on electric.
Then, how much gas related to my monthly driving might I need if I am ending up using gas for 8 of those miles, six days per week, (Sunday being all electric <40)?
Technically, if the range extender gets say 50 mpg, then the gallon ought to last the whole week (only going to church on Sunday is within the 40 electric miles).
Technically only 4 gallons a month is what I ought to need for gas. But, of course, the EPA test cycle might also have the AC running, and then, I might need 50% (as a function of 10% more total energy used for the AC) of more gasoline.
Maybe it is essentially about 6 gallons of gas into 1500 miles a month which would get close to that “What is 230?” number.
The point to that would be to estimate your monthly gasoline bill of 6 gallons times the price per gallon.
Likely, we may have to price the monthly gas bill at more like 7 or 8 gallons to adjust for irregular days when we go more than 60 to 70 miles.
I like that a lot.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:35 pm)I agree with you agreeing with Lyle! But perhaps for a slightly different reason. To me it’s a marketing question. You don’t call a press conference and spend time generating publicity for a mundane announcement. It needs to be for something you intend to carry on with for a while. The Volt’s MPG number would fit the bill, especially since it’s such a great number.
Being able to reduce the MPG to a single number is important, albeit, as Dave as pointed out, potentially misleading. Consumers like a single number. This gives it to them.
Two questions:
1. Does the X-Prize goal of 100 mpg, which seemed challenging when it was announced, now seem a bit limp with the Volt and the LEAF?
2. How long until the Prius 50 mpg number starts looking lame?
As for the accelerator question, I believe Greg Ceisel has answered that in the affirmative.
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-1
Aug 8th, 2009 (1:41 pm)The Volt battery can’t handle the quick charge. Greg Ceisel has said the wattage would be too high. (Can’t remember the exact number but it’s around 3000 watts). The quick charger Nissan uses wattage far above this.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (1:45 pm)GM itself says the Volt is not a hybrid, but an electric car with a supplemental generator to be used if your battery dies, they call it Extended Range Electric Vehicle… you could remove the generator and the car would still drive fine, dont try that with a hybrid since they need two sources of power.
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-8
Aug 8th, 2009 (1:45 pm)MPG WTF !
I thought the Volt was an ELECTRIC car .
I’m outa here you nutballs.
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-3
Aug 8th, 2009 (1:47 pm)Raspberry says the Volt has a massive carbon footprint so the question is:
Who will pay the Volt’s Carbon Tax ?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:47 pm)All the more reason for the VOLT of all vehicles to have one if GM is already including them in other vehicles.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (1:51 pm)Friggin Bob Lutz? Other than the substance of the announcement, which is obviously important, the next most interesting aspect of this campaign is …. the campaign itself. This is pretty interesting and more innovative than what we’ve seen from GM in the past. Lutz promised more use of the internet and more inventive PR, and perhaps this is the first step in that direction. If it is then kudos to him.
If they can match the Nissan web site for the LEAF I’ll be even more impressed.
While on the issue of web material, I wish GM would cut the elevator muzak on the video showing things like making the IVERs. You need a more hand held rougher cut. These things are cheesy. Smiling faces with happy music. Yuck. No one wants to watch a video which is so obviously an ad, plus the polish reduces the credibility of the content and strikes me as being very 1970s-ish. The hand held vidoes done by the guy who works for GM are WAY more interesting and credible. (Keep in mind I know nothing about advertising).
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-6
Aug 8th, 2009 (1:58 pm)It’s pitiful. Don’t even think about it. Last I done heard was around 41 MPG. That is very bad for a direct injection 1.4L 4 banger. The engine is the SAME used in the Chevy Cruze, it was NEVER designed for electric generator only use.
An extremely compromised choice to cut corners and stick it to those unsuspecting owners.
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-2
Aug 8th, 2009 (1:59 pm)Smoke and Mirrors.
Smoke and Mirrors.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (2:01 pm)I think you’ve identified a breakthrough! Here is the actual text from the autoweek article:
Once the battery pack’s charge reaches a minimal level, the gasoline engine kicks in. But it doesn’t drive the wheels, it just turns a generator that supplies power to the electric motor.
OMG. Is this the FIRST time I haven’t seen the engine “charging the batteries”? They got it right!
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Aug 8th, 2009 (2:02 pm)To me, it seems that under your logic the only mpg. number that should be used is what the Volt gets during charge sustaining mode. And that would be grossly misleading as all drivers will do better than that and I expect my yearly mpg. will be close to 300 mpg. I agree with you E-REV is new and old ways of deternining mpg. will not work. We will have to average.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (2:03 pm)The power outlet face is so cute! How come all those people in the pictures get T-shirts… I want one. I like this campaign, it’s fun…
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-6
Aug 8th, 2009 (2:04 pm)I sense a racist tone in your comments. I hope you don’t bring this attitude to your workplace.
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-1
Aug 8th, 2009 (2:07 pm)You guys are nutz. With the teaser photo released a few days ago, this ad campaign is most likely an official announcement for the new plug in Buick CUV. It probably has nothing to do with the Volt. 230 is probably the number of days until you can buy one and/or maybe the number of gallons of gas you will save in a year.
Based on the combined mileage of the current Saturn V6 Vue at about 20mpg, if the new plug in cot a combined mileage of about 32mpg, that would be a savings of about 230 gallons of gas in a year.
32mpg combined is on par with the Escape Hybrid and the advantage with the Buick will be the bigger size, more powerful engine and the ability to tow a fair amount. Hell, maybe they are going to call it the Buick 230.
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-2
Aug 8th, 2009 (2:07 pm)The LEAF will be HALF THE PRICE of the Volt.
Think low 20s max.
The Volt will be low to middle 40s min.
The LEAF is a fully electric car while the Volt is only a Hybrid (similar to the Prius except with the older series-hybrid design)
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (2:15 pm)I generally agree with your point. Still, I think you have to somehow account for the range.
What struck me in your post was how meaningless those MPG numbers get.
If you tell a consumer they could get a 513MPG car or a 311MPG car I’m sure most consumers would think the 513MPG car was vastly (60%+) better. But based on your driving pattern that extra 200+MPG would only save 15 gallons/year!
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (2:20 pm)Speaking at least for myself, I wouldn’t want a sunroof if one were offered. The less sunlight coming in = the less the A/C has to work to keep the car cool.
/live near Atlanta
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Aug 8th, 2009 (2:24 pm)I don’t think it’s likely this soon, either; but if a Chevy EV is going to be announced Aug 11:
Chevy Volt + Buick CUV + Chevy EV (all using the same large format Li/Ion LG cells) = lower cost per cell = we all win.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (2:27 pm)Further, you clearly need a simple metric for comparing Apples to Apples. What if Hyundai hits the market with it’s EREV, with a different figure for AER and a different MPG in Charge Sustain mode? What’s a quick and simple number for efficiency comparison?
If you want to compare an EREV’s number to an ICE’s, you might just as well be comparing Apples to Grapefruit.
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-1
Aug 8th, 2009 (2:28 pm)I will not be a party to your race-baiting !
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (2:30 pm)“Who will pay the Volt’s Carbon Tax ?”
I vote for Crack Whore.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (2:32 pm)Let’s not forget to take into consideration the amount of fuel that is used to produce the electricity that will power the volt, for the first 40 miles.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (2:48 pm)12,000 miles driven per year
12,000 miles / 365 days = 32.8 miles per day
365 recharges a year x $1 per charge = $365
Total cost for 12,000 miles = $365
$365 / $3.33 per gallon = 109 (would be*) gallons
12,000 miles / 109 gallons = 110 miles per gallon*
110 mpg* using electric recharge only.
___________________________________________
If a driver totals 16,000 miles per year (4000 more miles @ 45 mpg ICE) our total gallons of used gasoline (actual) jumps to 83 + 109* = 192.
12,000 miles / 192 gallons = 62.5 mpg
This is a quiet, comfortable, well optioned, luxury appointed (leather ~ gps), 6 cylinder performance, American pride in ownership vehicle.
To be available soon in a higher riding crossover version.
=D~
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Aug 8th, 2009 (2:52 pm)Stop with the race-baiting already. Just give it a rest.
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-5
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:00 pm)The stench of GM Sheep has overwhelmed this site. No objectivity can be found here. Mr. Goodwrench was recently found helping that sheep cross his fence. Uh huh.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:01 pm)How does the news of 23 plug in models in GM show rooms August of 2011 earn a minus 1 rating?
=D~
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:04 pm)The main seeling point of an EREV is that you can still drive after the battery range of 40 miles is used up.
No one calculates MPG based on a 400 mile trip.
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-4
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:05 pm)Another reason why the LEAF is superior.;-)
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:11 pm)Different people consider it different ways.
For example, if your primary consideration is energy Independence, less money for terrorists, or the economy, then the amount of fuel used to produce electricity doesn’t matter, since this fuel is all domestic.
And if your primary consideration is global warming, electricity offers the possibility of renewable, zero emission fuel sources in the future.
With this in mind, I believe merging kWh into the MPG figure sort of defeats the whole point, which is to migrate from oil to electricity.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (3:11 pm)JHoover,
We all want to see the big picture. Please present the downside.
=D~
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:14 pm)The MPG for the Volt would not be calculated on someone’s arbitrary long trip.
Be sensible.
The AVERAGE american drives a certain amount each year. Some long trips, some short. MOST people (over70%) drive less than 40 miles per day on average.
The Volt’s
MPG rating needs to speak to average folks. No one is interested in your arbitrary trip.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:22 pm)Totally agree about the sunroof – as do many others who do not post here. Also ,what about a convertible version? … I know, wishful thinking. LOL. Anyone have a hack saw I can borrow?
Hope to see the new aggressive GM. Go Volt go!
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+4
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:23 pm)Yes, good point.
Gallons Per Year (GPY) is a much better way to rate plug-ins than MPG.
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+3
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:32 pm)A racist tone? Are you kidding me? Exactly what do you think is racist? AFAIK there isn’t a race called “1970s-ish”.
Seriously, I pity your co-workers if you take this attitude to your workplace!
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:33 pm)You’re right Don, “….it’s a marketing question. You don’t call a press conference and spend time generating publicity for a mundane announcement.” And it certainly helps that GM will be able to quote a recognized authority from our nation’s original national laboratory —Argonne National Labs— a man directly involved & responsible for this entire MPG rating by the EPA.”
BTW, I would encourage eveyone here to carefully read the presentation by Mike Duoba at Argonne (the link is in my post above) before you make your guess or criticize Lyle’s!
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Aug 8th, 2009 (3:41 pm)Major Consensus Items of J1711
Do not combine fuel and electricity into a composite MPG Result
Report both MPG and AC Wh/mi (from plug) separately
Baseline charging assumption: 1 charge per day
Missed charge = Opportunity charging
Retain “Utility Factor”method of combining depleting with sustaining
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf
=D~
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-2
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:46 pm)http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-distribution/japan-intends-to-expand-hydrogen-highway-system-for-whole-country/
In the end, it looks like only our President is interested in an electric car fleet. Japan is building up a hydrogen highway system. Since government run GM and Chrysler could be doomed the future big car makers might force hydrogen on us.
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-5
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:48 pm)And Obama also decreed: “He who has nothin’ should have less, and that which he has shall be taken from him”.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (3:49 pm)How many daily recharges will actually be on YOUR bank account?
Savings accrued from work place recharge and other field plug in opportunities. Actual out-of-pocket on pure electric may be closer to $200 per year.
$200 / $3.33 gallons* = 60 gallons (consumer cost•) for 12,000 miles
12,000 / 60• = 200 mpg•
=D~
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+3
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:50 pm)We all dream of electric sheep. So do androids.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (3:51 pm)The LEAF price of $20k includes only the cost of the car and not the battery which you have to lease and would itself cost $20k dollars if not more. So you’re making a car payment and a lease payment that would be roughly equivalent to the car payment on a volt. An electric car is much simpler and cheaper to produce than a series hybrid. The batteries just cost you an arm and a leg if you want it to have any type of range and/or highway capability.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (3:55 pm)We stopped telling Polish jokes a long time ago…
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (4:04 pm)Lyle, I’d like you to ask GM why they chose Chevrolet instead of Cadillac or maybe even Buick for the Volt. Had the Volt been a Caddy, GM could have priced it at $50K and there still would have less bother over its sales price. At the miniscule projected production volumes in the first year or two the Cadillac Volt would have still sold out.
GM could have then used the time to find the way to lower the cost of a completed vehicle, and then let the technology filter down to the Chevrolet level when GM felt it could be profitable there.
This approach – introduce new technology/product at the highest levels first, filter it down to lower levels later – was successfully followed several times during GM’s heyday in the post-WWII period……high-compression OHV V-8 engines; automatic transmissions, 2-door hardtop body style; 4-door hardtop body style all came to market in the upper product levels of GM, and came to Chevy and Pontiac a couple of years later.
As it is now, with the Volt as a Chevy, there is a lot of resistance because of its high price. Resistance which could have been avoided had the Volt been a Cadillac, or even a Buick.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:08 pm)Sounds like you are a perfect candidate for a BEV, not the Volt. Why drag around the extra weight, complexity, and cost of the EREV?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:21 pm)You’ve listed some important factors from page 13 of Duoba’s ANL presentation, Dave. Thanks!
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (4:32 pm)It was -2 when I read it, so I bumped it up to -1. No idea why it got *any* negatives.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (4:35 pm)old man,
Great question about the feedback. GM could use OnStar (ducks and covers) to gather the data and Maaaaaybe publish it. They may more likely want to keep those cards close to the vest though. A single car (Lyle’s) would give the board SOME idea though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:37 pm)Dave K,
Wasn’t one of the criticisms that GM had too MANY models? 23 MORE seems over the top. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:39 pm)Yeah, I posted that above. Twwo great minds with a single thought.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:39 pm)Yeah, except I was always telling Poolish jokes!
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:43 pm)Jackson,
I’m with you on this one. I like the shade. Then again, the AC in my Jeep doesn’t work anyway!(lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:45 pm)Islander,
A convertible would kinda defeat the idea of reducing drag, I think.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-1
Aug 8th, 2009 (4:46 pm)Republican butthurt is strong today. Scratch that, when are they not? Butthurt + crazy = Repuiblicans.
Angry mobs at town halls screaming about Barry Hussein’s healthcare is gonna grind up grandma! End of life counseling is HITLER! Secret Mooslim Socialist Terrorist — born in KENYA! I’ve got the “born in Kenya not US” official birth certificate!1!11!!
Seriously, man up Nancy.
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (4:47 pm)Seems that so far Obama has signed off on tax cuts for 98.6% of all working households (working households being defined as households filing income taxes).
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/obama-has-cut-taxes-for-986-percent-of.html
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:50 pm)Lyle-
I’d like you to ask the GM execs, engineers and designers if they are are actively planning any sport or performance driving versions for the Voltec platform. The novelty of electric driving will wear off in a short while. Please don’t let this turn into a discussion of instant torque. That alone does not make a performance car. Possibly even an SS Volt as one of the trim levels that might have different programing and different suspension and handling characteristics. Hopefully not just bigger wheels a few body pieces and some stickers.
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+2
Aug 8th, 2009 (4:51 pm)Jackson,
If GM offered all three, they’d run out of complainers (did I say that out loud?)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (4:53 pm)Spin,
Answer: First you need to be willing to donate a kidney… (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (4:58 pm)Lets hope they are clever enough to use an electric oil pump to do that and no combustion needed at all. Just like a turbo oil timer that cools the turbo bearings. Nothing new….but clever application.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (5:17 pm)stuart,
Initially, the Volt was to sell for “comfortably under 30K” which would be a sweet spot for wide acceptance – hence a Chevy. The battery technology turned out to be far more expensive than anticipated (along with several other parts) so the price has gradually risen. There is still hope that they may pull a rabbit out of their hat and break that 30K mark.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (5:18 pm)I think it could be the miles per gallon the average driver will get with the volt.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (5:20 pm)RB,
Thanks, I’ll take all the smiles I can get! Each one is priceless.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (5:24 pm)Tag,
There has been talk of plug in hybrids from GM for some time. Also mention of a Cruze which is expected to get 39 mpg. A Converj EREV. Possible Orlando EREV. And perhaps a sport plug in.
Now the truth…. Have you seen one? Where are they?
GM needs to produce or risk back sliding into the former gas guzzling, Union striking, Escalaide pushing image which brought them down.
Recent ads boast…
GM> We have more models over 30mpg
Toyota> We have more models over 35mpg
…others boast of resale value
…others of long term cost of ownership
If GM doesn’t act quickly in the PR department then they will see the Leafs, Roadsters, Focus, Aptera, Phoenix, and other models dominate the green sales market. GM must follow their talk with actual internet or show room availability.
Would be Volt sales are already taking a hit. Camaro’s are selling like hot dogs at a Dodger game. Fit, Yaris, Fusion and assorted Korean offerings face little competition. BYD stock is rising.
And most costly of all, time is passing. The question is not having too many models or not. The question is, “How thirsty will they be for gasoline”?.
=D~
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Aug 8th, 2009 (5:34 pm)nasaman,
The Douba article is a very interesting read. Is the “Utility factor” pretty much as BillR describes it below? I’m not doubting Bill, I just didn’t see a definition in the article.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-6
Aug 8th, 2009 (5:47 pm)Now that the government is involved – we may never see the car on the road. Obama will probably think it costs too much and is not fair that poor people will have to buy gas.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (5:54 pm)Wouldn’t that make you fellas really busy at work?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:05 pm)Resistance equals Lyles’ 48,000 wait list long before the car is presented to general public?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:06 pm)jeffhre,
Three couches, no waiting, line forms on the left…. I’d be very busy with anyone depressed about missing out, present company included (Moi)…. Then again, I DO have a spare kidney.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:08 pm)jeffrhe,
You should know by now that I am immune to reality. You won’t phase me a bit with facts (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (6:11 pm)If the “main concept” was running on extended range why would a $10K battery pack be involved. That’s nuts…just leave out the battery and have a 50 or 60 MPG vehicle running on a generator.
The concept is battery. No Fuel. E range if you need it.
GM sure has an education challenge ahead of them…
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:14 pm)Enough Ladies.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:16 pm)Maybe it means GM will have 23 plug in models by August 2011.
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+6
Aug 8th, 2009 (6:25 pm)We’ve come under a lot of concentrated troll attacks, this is the first time I’ve seen one following a theme of racism.
You cafeteria trolls have really gotten a wrong number.
Over the past two years, the bona-fide, longtime members of this board have found that the idea of an EREV (Volt in particular) has been supportable over an extremely broad range of world-views and economic brackets. It is only the most deranged of imaginations which can possibly put the odor of race on our comments.
If this is not a purely random attack, and is somehow in response to criticism of President Obama’s policies, I would make the following observations:
All presidents have faced opposition. This is part and parcel of the dialogue of a politically diverse people. If you were to oppose a policy of Barack Obama, it would not follow that this must have been the result of a racist attitude.
If you were to allow Barack Obama to get away with any policy in silence, solely because of the color of his skin, would it make you any less a racist?
I’m not wasting my time here if I’ve let site visitors know that today’s negative commentary is largely one of an external influence, and that the race angle is something new.
For that external influence, I do realize that responding to you is a waste where you are concerned; but then again, I’m not really writing to you. Please leave us in peace and let us help Get The Volt’s Wheels On The Road.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:27 pm)The UF is defined on slide 24 in the article. AFAICT, it’s a fraction, with the numerator being all the miles driven in EV mode and the denominator all the miles driven. So if you and I were the only two drivers, and you drove 40 miles and I drove 50 miles, then the UF = (40+40)/(40+50) = .8888.
The actual numbers of miles driven comes from the DOT 2001 survey. FWIW I had never done the calculations, but I’ve read/heard that the Volt’s number would probably be over 200.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:32 pm)Tag – Glad you liked the Douba/ANL presentation, which defines UF on page 24. (You’ll note on pg 24 that the Volt’s 40 mile AER is taken as the normal depleting range).
Regarding BillR’s independent analysis in #9 below, his references differ from the ANL presentation I cite above, yet he also concludes 230 mpg is correct —which IMO lends a bit more credence to Lyle’s (& my) guess that 230 mpg is the correct answer that GM will announce next Tuesday.
PS: Dave G in #1 above also says he gets 231 mpg using Duoba’s method
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:32 pm)Possible. I’d bet against it and in favor of Lyle’s guess. The problem with a number for electricity is that it’s really squishy. Not only is it based on an assumed driving pattern like the mpg number, it’s also based on an assumed cost of electricity. That really varies a lot.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:36 pm)That’s great. That is a very low use rate. Obviously you don’t have any teenagers in the house!
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+3
Aug 8th, 2009 (6:39 pm)Lets not forget the fuel used to produce the electricity that powered the refinery that made the gasoline!
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:40 pm)Only one?
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:40 pm)Good decision. I’ve had a sunroof on every car for years. Every once in a while – like once every two or three years — I open it and remember why I don’t do it more often.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:43 pm)The good thing is that while it may be a lie, as you suggest, it will be the same lie for everyone. It’s like playing sports in the rain — the weather is the same for both teams.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:53 pm)DonC and nasaman,
Thanks for the direction(s). That chart looks so clear until its not (lol). I’m pretty sure that my eyes will stop bleeding by Tuesday.(just kidding). The one question I have for you is WHEN do vehicles get tested? If they already HAVE been tested, can they REtest. It would bear on what they COULD say on Tuesday. They could always say that the “estimated” mpg is….(as in “their” estimate). And then again, maybe it’s not this at all!
PS I was amused by the chart that said (no matter what GM says, the Volt is a phev) lol.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (6:56 pm)Spin “Only one?”
Per week.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 8th, 2009 (7:06 pm)Lyle
What time is the press conf?
Thanks and safe trip,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 8th, 2009 (7:48 pm)Multiple sources have said Battery for car costs about $10K.
Nissan has said lease for battery + electricity charge <= gas expense per month.
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Aug 8th, 2009 (7:54 pm)I believe it will do an “engine conditioning” cycle or something like that if the engine hasn’t been run for a while. Also, if your gas is really, really old, it’ll run the engine to burn it off until it goes bad.
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