AND 
What is 230?
A mysterious viral advertising campaign has surfaced on television and the Internet this week, which has been further amplified over the blogosphere. In fact, flickr, facebook , YouTube, and blog sites have surface around it.
A simple green background shows the number 230, with a winking electric outlet instead of the zero. Below is the date 8-11.
AdAge determined that the source of the campaign is none other than GM, but the automaker and its ad agencies won’t say what it means.
Speculation has varied on its meaning from the MPG of the Buick plug-in to the MPG of the Volt or even something to do with charging at 220V.
GM is holding a press conference in Detroit on August 11th, and yes I will be there.
Reports quote sources as saying the number will be the Volt’s official MPG rating, but how they came to it remains a mystery; highway, city, average, none of the above? And if so how was it calculated? The EPA city cycle is 11.04 miles, the highway cycle is 10.26 miles. The car goes 40 mile without any gas, and 78% of drivers drive less than 40 miles per day (utility factor). Do your own math.
Here’s my guess:
I heard of a method to determine the MPG of an EREV; first the car is driven from a full battery until it reaches charge-sustaining mode, then one more cycle is driven. If we use the highway schedule, the first 40 miles are electric. One more cycle is 11 more miles. If the Volt gets 50 MPG in charge sustaining mode, it will use .22 gallons of gas for that 11 miles. Thus 51 miles/.22 gallons = 231.8 MPG.
We can have fun guessing for now, but be sure to logon to GM-Volt.com on Tuesday morning and we will have the answer as soon as it hits.
Plus, if you have any questions you want me to ask the Volt team and execs while I am there, leave them in the comments.
Source (AdAge)
[UPDATE: The method referred to to measure the efficiency of an EREV is far more complex and still under development. Though my calculation came out similar the methodology GM actually used to determine the MPG was different. See this post.]
August 8th, 2009 at 8:22 am
Exciting times! I have my thinking cap on for questions to be asked.
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Maybe release date of Monday March 29th – 230 days from now?
$23,000 Price? Under-promise, over-deliver! 8/11 release date?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:39 am
23. It’s the dreaded 23 again! This is not good. For those who do not know what I’m talking about go out and rent the move 23. Just be careful.
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Wrong marketing pict selection, a NEMA 5-15R is not for 230/1/60
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Very cool.
Being the marketing guy and not an engineer like most of you here, I would say that the smiley face “zero” plug is an indicator that the number 230 is the estimated cost of electricity per year that the VOLT will use on average. (if I’m wrong I know it won’t take long for someone to post the math for it.)
I recall there was a posting here that the new EPA window stickers would show a new formula for MPG and electricity cost. I think the number 230 will be the latter.
Place your bets!
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:51 am
texas,
I saw the ads for that movie and that was spooky enough. This receptacle looks pretty friendly though (g). And it winks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:52 am
What’s a NEMA?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:58 am
To do the math, a critical piece is missing. Once the battery is depleted, what are the city and highway mileages running on the ICE range extender?
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:59 am
The National Electrical Manufacturers Association or NEMA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA
http://www.nema.org/prod/pwr/connect/
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Another smiley face plug
http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/images/logo_mieux_consommer.gif
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Corvetteguy,
This sounds reasonable. At least Tuesday’s not too far away.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Lyle, you could ask how the energy grants/recent board meetings have changed their plans for early Volt roll out as far as time frame and numbers. Some of us are dreaming of being one of the first 500 who get to be one of the Volt beta testers (as I’m sure you are too). They’ll probably not have a comment, but maybe.
I’m also still curious if they’ll ever offer a 110V outlet in the Volts, giving the user experience a whole new feel when they can charge their mobile devices, mp3 players, laptops, etc. etc., all this for just a couple of dollars worth of hardware…
This might be clear to others, but are the Volts going to be able to access the same “quick charge” stations that Nissan is building in preparation for their EVs (the ones that you mentioned recently) and if so, what is GM doing to further this cause? We heard they are working with utility companies, whatever that means, are they just “raising awareness” or something while Nissan is actually making tangible progress? (reeks of old GM allowing the Japanese to be the leader in their own country)
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Thanks! Learn something new everyday.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:09 am
omni,
All great questions! The “if” the public will get to be beta testers (as opposed to just GM employees), and the “if yes”, how would they be chosen? The “drool factor” on this is enormous! (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:10 am
230 could easily be the MPG for the Volt, calculated on an average American’s yearly usage.
I know I will get at least that much based on my 35 mile round-trip commute to work, and a few trips a year to the airport when my kids visit.
The government (EPA, etc.) has all kind of statistics for driving, and they can figure this stuff out.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Here is another link of interest:
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090807/CARNEWS/908079985
My speculation is that the Volt will have an EPA highway rating of 230 mpg. Now let me explain why I believe this.
See this analysis that I put in the forum some months ago:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2541
In one link, two engineers from NREL (National Renewable Energy Laboratory) described a methodology for determining equivalent gas mileage for plug-in vehicles. I examined how the Volt would likely compare, and determined an overall composite fuel economy of 148 mpg.
However, I have revisited my calculations to see if the Volt could achieve 230 mpg. If the Volt in the mild highway cycle (average 48.3 mph) only needs 135 Wh/mile, and GM has overdelivered on the battery pack (10 kW usable), this equates to ~75 miles AER. Since most drivers drive less than this each day, the test equates a Utility Factor (UF) of 0.7 for this AER value (think of it as a probability of whether you will drive gas-free on any given day).
Next, with a 36% efficient ICE, the 33.44 kWh in a gallon of gasoline converts to 12.04 kWh. So at 135 Wh/mile, this equates to 89 mpg.
Thus highway mileage is determined by driving one electric cycle until the ICE kicks in (75 miles) and then driving the same distance in CS (charge sustaining) mode. At 89 mpg for 75 miles, gas consumption is .84 gallons. However, there is also the utility factor that comes into play, and preliminary calculated mpg is 89/(1-UF) or 89/0.3 = 297 mpg. The EPA has determined that this is not an accurate rating, and has reduced it by 22% to reflect real world figures.
Thus the rating becomes 230 mpg!
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Does anyone here know how soon the EPA does their mileage testing before a vehicle’s release? I’m trying to figure out if the timing is right for that 230 mpg guess (whether that testing would have been done yet).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:21 am
It must mean I will get a Volt, because 230 is the exact A/C current used here, and Europe, and Japan, and Australia.
Seriously, I think it has something to do with the Volt’s charging capabilities.
As to questions. I will spend 90% of my year NOT using any gas at all. Can the car be programed so the generator turns the ICE over for 10 – 20 seconds every time I plug in to recharge, in order to keep it lubed?
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:22 am
The volt will not be rated at 230 mpg.
If the numbers were meant to convey a short recharge cycle they would be 220 8pm-11pm (3 hours).
An NGMCO ‘green’ campaign to produce 23 plug in models by 08/2011.
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Oh, and just a note to newbies on this site – you can figure out your mileage on any given trip with the Volt by using this formula:
MPG = 50XM/(M-40)
The “50″ is the supposed MPG Volt when it is in range-extending mode.
The “40″ is the all electric range after charging up.
M is the miles you travel on your trip – just put in the figure.
So, let’s say you travel 55 miles after charging.
50 x 55 = 2750
55 – 40 = 15
2750 divided by 15 = 183
183 is your MPG for that trip.
Again your mileage my vary, depending on how you drive.
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:23 am
BillR,
And I thought *I* was the resident optimist (g). Freeing up 2 more KWh on the battery is an interesting hypothesis (and you may be totally correct), but it’d take the whole series of “if’s” to come out with the 230. Can you imagine the sales pitch that that would make though!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:27 am
NZDavid,
There was talk of the engine running occasionally automatically while the car was in motion, to avoid fumes in a garage (I think).
See, I told you miracles could happen. Let me know when your beta arrives (lol). They could “sell” a whole nation!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:27 am
I don’t think this particular promotion is thinking about the range extension part of it.
While it is true that the ICE will eliminate “range anxiety”, (which I still believe is only a temporary condition based on a fear of the unknown), for advertising purposes I am very sure that GM will be focusing on the “average daily work commute” for 78% of Americans.
The main concept of EREV is running the car on electricity. And THEN it just so happens to have a range extending ICE. If the GM marketing people are worth their paychecks, they will be hammering the “uses no gas for your daily commute” phrase in every TV and radio spot until your sick of hearing it.
“Perception is Reality”. When it comes to the masses, if you hear it on TV often enough that something is really great, eventually they will start to believe it. How else do you think Obama got elected President?
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Note also that the closer your miles traveled is to the “40″ the closer your MPG is to infinite.
To make the point, in the above 55 mile trip you get 183 MPG, but if you travel just 5 miles less, ie. 50, you get:
50 x 50 = 2500
50 – 40 =10
2500 divided by 10 = 250
Your MPG for the 50 mile trip would be 250.
Calculate for a 45 mile trip and you get a whopping 450 MPG!
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:31 am
I’m also still curious if they’ll ever offer a 110V outlet in the Volts, giving the user experience a whole new feel when they can charge their mobile devices, mp3 players, laptops, etc. etc., all this for just a couple of dollars worth of hardware
Excellent question. I too maintain that GM should do this as a marketing strategy, as NO other platform can do this as of right. For a normal ICE it would involve a new heavy duty alternator. For a pure BEV it would diminish range to much. Nope for any road warrior the EREV is the way to go.
In the event of a power outage, I could plug my fridge into it for several hours a day to keep things frozen. etc.
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:32 am
I knew one of you would post the math why I was wrong. (see above)
Us car guys just can’t count above 10 without taking our shoes off ‘ya know’d.
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:35 am
If you take the 50mpg suggested for the Volt on the ICE, divide it by the percentage of time it might use the ICE (22%), you come up with 227mpg. This assumes the Volt will get 50 mpg and you drive it on battery power 78% of the time, which is close to how I would be driving it.
Spotter
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:37 am
I think the Volt may have two plugs so it can use both charges. I know it can sense the charge, but the plugs are different, no?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:37 am
The question I would like for you to ask is, How often will we at Gm-volt.com get updates regarding the 500 test Volt drivers opinion on their driving experience? Daily is most likely out of the question but I would hope at least weekly.
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:43 am
my 2010 Fusion Hybrid does have a 110 Volt outlet … Not sure on the rating for it… I assume you could charge your laptop and other small units (don’t think the hair dryer will work tho)
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:44 am
the ICE can also crank over without fuel being injected, just to lube it up..
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Yep there was. But I want the generator to turn the ICE over without using ANY fuel. It seems a simple algorithm to do it each time the car is plugged in would fit the bill just nicely.
NVPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:48 am
HA! Your tears sustain me.
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:54 am
“However, I have revisited my calculations to see if the Volt could achieve 230 mpg. If the Volt in the mild highway cycle (average 48.3 mph) only needs 135 Wh/mile, and GM has overdelivered on the battery pack (10 kW usable), this equates to ~75 miles AER. ”
By GMs definition the Volt can do 40 miles in the hwy cycle with 8kwh of battery capacity, thus it consumes a round 200 w/mile.. also GM is never going to open up the battery capacity past 50%.. unless they are getting really good news in the battery testing dept.
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:58 am
OH God, here we go again.
230 is prob the MPG. I really wish they would just separate the #’s, or list it as Gallons per mile. If u want to 40 miles, 0 gallons.. and so on.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:00 am
While you’re at it Lyle, just ask it you will be one of the 500, and you can report to us directly.
And have you given any thought to what the Volt users section of the website will look like?
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:05 am
If i add 230 days to 11 August, i get 29 March 2010. I wonder if it represents some sort of count-down to release to Manufacture dead-line for volt.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I think its the exact opposite. The main concept of a BEV is running on electricity. The main concept of a EREV is the extended range. So I would argue the MPG in extended mode is the most important thing.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I should have specified a normal household 15Amp outlet.
For me that would be at 230 Volts as well. Heck, I could run my hot water system off it (only draws 9Amps continuous).
Still points to the Fusion Hybrid for including a plug.
NO Voltec Plug, NO Sale
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Electricity isn’t free, you can’t leave that out of your equation.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Didn’t the ugliest car on the planet have one? (Aztec)
If the Volt doesn’t have one just get a power inverter and plug it into the cig lighter. They cost about $25 for a 250 watt inverter that will power your laptop, mp3 or other small electronics.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Good point kdawg.
The last few Volt photos we have seen show temporary rear spoiler configurations and a racing nose dam up front. We saw a comment posted 6 months ago saying NGMCO is pleased with battery performance. And another, 2 months ago, stating that NGMCO is meeting the battery range goals.
Mr. Henderson said his company will listen closely and act quickly. This is why I feel the “23 plug in 8-11″ ad means “twenty three plug in models in the showroom August 2011″. I would have guessed 12 models, but 23 is doable with a focused effort. Can you think of a better way for NGMCO to take the lead and hold it?
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:13 am
90% sounds pretty good. What’s your MPG? Assuming 40mi/50mpg, I’m sitting at 314mpg,without adding KWh equivalents but scheduling far more long trips than I make (since I may be more apt to take them with the Volt).
Anyway, it wouldn’t be the end of the world for the ICE to kick on every couple days. An occasional lubing never hurt anybody.
And the press conference? They’re going to announce 230mpg and the 500 consumer test fleet. Lyle gets a call during the read, and… you can guess the rest. LGTVWOTR!
NPNS!!! =D~~~
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Since the main selling point is the EREV lets figure the mileage on a 400 mile trip. Assuming 45MPG in ICE mode.
The total MPG for the trip is 50 MPG. No where close to the 230 number.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:30 am
I know it is beating a dead horse, but please ask them if a sunroof will be an option? MANY hate the fact that cars like the Prius & the Insight offer no sunroof just to eek out a few more mpg, or ev range.
The EV shouldn’t be about sacrifices, but options. Please ask if it will be optional for those who would want it, and not be trapped under a carpeted dull roof.
Thanks!
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:34 am
- 230 MPG for the Volt
- 230 miles range with full charge and fuel tank for the Volt
- 230 days until release of the Volt
- 230 dealers that will sell & service the Volt for 1st model year
- 230 pre-Production Volts built
- 2:30pm is time of GM press conference on 8/11
- 230 dollars of electricity per year average for Volt
- 230% more MSRP for Volt than the Prius (sorry hardcore Volt fans)
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Remember the SAE J1772 EV conductive charge coupler?
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/16/plug-standard-needed-for-electric-car-charging-cord-interface-sae-j1772/
http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/saej1772/
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/sae-hybrid-standards-20090423.html
I hope only “1″ standard will emerge, no need for another Beta\VHS battlefield:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/elektromotive-mennekes-20090515.html
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Drop your racist tone.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:36 am
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:37 am
In the eyes of GM engineers, this is a very minor problem to solve. They are many good and easy solutions to this problem.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:37 am
If you are right, then I hope the “230″ is the miles-per-gallon based on the new EPA testing parameters.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:38 am
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Now that the govt is involved, we can be certain it’ll be uniform, er, well it could happen…(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:44 am
- 230 billion dollars more needed for GM bailout (hey…not sorry on this one…and supposedly GM started this guessing game.)
- 230 days until GM pays back all government loans (a more positive outlook)
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Using ALL my body parts I can count to 20 and 1/2!!
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Who said anything even remotely racist?
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:53 am
>> 230 miles range with full charge and fuel tank for the Volt
Boy, I sure hope not. That’d mean either lousy RE-mode mileage, or a REALLY tiny fuel tank.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:03 am
CorvetteGuy … “range anxiety”, (which I still believe is only a temporary condition based on a fear of the unknown).
It may be the NGMCO big wigs have alerted the dealers to throw in a good word for pure EV’s. This is understandable as NGMCO will be driving down BEV Street in 6-8 years.
In the meantime… trust me CorvetteGuy, range anxiety is not fun. Especially when it costs $30+ to own.
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:07 am
“Plus, if you have any questions you want me to ask the Volt team and execs while I am there, leave them in the comments.”
_______________________
Nissan has chosen their manufacturer for the ‘quick-charge’ station equipment. Has GM done the same yet? And, if so, who is it and what is the estimated cost for each station? Do you think the government will be assisting dealerships with the cost of one of those?
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am
I agree…
40 AER ? city/ ? highway MPG
AER (all electric range) should be part of the EPA rating. MPG should be using ONLY the energy source that is measured in GALLONS.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Obviously the main point of an electric car is that you dont use gas.. doh!.. in the Volt you do use some once in a while but thats not important.
230 is the mpg equivalent of the Volt most of the time (in electric mode 78% of the time), probably an official EPA number that will be announced on tuesday. .. then more endless rehashing of this topic will happen again. God knows how they calculated it.. I could care less.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am
I think you got it right..
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:18 am
- 230 tons of reduced carbon emissons for 1st model year fleet.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:19 am
I think it is GM promoting a charge supplied at 230 Volts
110 Volts common household voltage in USA
220 Volt line for charging the car . The same as the hot water tank and running the A/C .
115 Volts and 230 Volts are common in Canada
110 Volts and 220 Volts are common in USA
Both are 60 cycles and what will work on one will work on the other I think the difference is the number of windings in the residential step down transformer outside of the house .
230 Volts is a little stronger than 220 Volts too and the car would charge up a little sooner on 230 Volts , but not much sooner .
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:27 am
I’m a bit surprised no one has commented yet on our well-informed editor’s guess, as he explained it above….
“Mike Duoba from Argonne National Lab devised a method to determine the MPG of an EREV; first the car is driven from a full battery until it reaches charge-sustaining mode, then one more cycle is driven. If we use the highway schedule, the first 40 miles are electric. One more cycle is 11 more miles. If the Volt gets 50 MPG in charge sustaining mode, it will use .22 gallons of gas for that 11 miles. Thus 51 miles/.22 gallons = 231.8 MPG.”
Lyle, I’m “throwing my hat in your ring” for the following reasons: 1) Your facts & assumptions are clearly plausible; 2) I’m guessing you might have reached Mike Duoba or someone else at ANL (or GM) that offered this answer or at least good clues leading you to it; 3) I know you well enough to believe you wouldn’t make a WAG just to “seed” the blog discussions here; and 4) I’ve read thru a presentation by Duoba dealing with the procedures for determining the MPGs of E-REVS across the industry on an “equal playing field” basis ….and your guess doesn’t seem to conflict with anything in his presentation*
*http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf
[BTW, my question for GM next Tuesday is whether the Volt's accelerator pedal will allow the driver any kind of INSTANTANEOUS increase in torque to safely handle 2-lane hwy passing situations?]
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Lyle if they are giving an official mpg, please ask GM what the Volt’s gas mileage is when it runs in charge-sustaining (ICE) mode.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:34 am
CorvetteGuy
“The main concept of EREV is running the car on electricity. And THEN it just so happens to have a range extending ICE. If the GM marketing people are worth their paychecks, they will be hammering the “uses no gas for your daily commute” phrase in every TV and radio spot until your sick of hearing it.”
I agree. 40 is the number! This will be compared to ie, PHEV Prius etal (bytheway, which I drive), which will have a range much shorter, ie 18 miles. So that is what people will be comparing first. Then, they want to know what is overall or city/highway miles afterwords, second. By the way, trying to educate people on e-rev vs parallel hybrid is a long uphill journey.
out of town. really slow connection.
As Tag would say it: LJGTVWOTG
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:34 am
If its not important why not have it be a BEV? The Volt is a hybrid, not an electric car.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Here’s a question for you to ask the Volt team:
What is the MPG in generator mode?
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:43 am
nasaman,
That all makes sense so that can’t be it (lol). Seriously, 230 mpg? Isn’t it really 50mpg in your statement above? It seems like one of those formulas that read “insert miracle here” and then the end result. The voltage seems like a pedestrian solution, so that might be it, but I doubt they’d flood the wave with ads about that. And then there’s the 8-11…..
PS I hope they are having Lyle out there to pick up a certificate that’s “Good for one VOLT (vehicle)”. One man CAN make a huge difference.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:46 am
I just want a USB port for charging devices and communicating to the cars computer and audio system.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Your lips to God’s ear on all counts. Can you imagine putting up with US for over 2.5 years AND publishing over 1000 articles here. I can’t. No one deserves one more than Lyle.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:49 am
We have 120/240, I thought it was the same for the US?
That’s also a pretty lame advertising campaign, lol. “We are rated 10 volts higher!”
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Single phase 120/240VAC is standard in the US, also.
Amusing that the receptacle in the graphic is a NEMA 5-15R, for 120VAC only.
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
_____________________________________________________
230 = an EV Chevy Volt?
(EREV Chevy Volt) – (ICE) + (more battery) = EV Chevy Volt w/ 230 miles AER
_____________________________________________________
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
It could be. Solar panels and windmills eventually pay for themselves
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
36% is a little high on the engine efficiency, don’t you think?
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
From the article: Mike Duoba from Argonne National Lab devised a method to determine the MPG of an EREV; first the car is driven from a full battery until it reaches charge-sustaining mode, then one more cycle is driven. If we use the highway schedule, the first 40 miles are electric. One more cycle is 11 more miles. If the Volt gets 50 MPG in charge sustaining mode, it will use .22 gallons of gas for that 11 miles. Thus 51 miles/.22 gallons = 231.8 MPG.
———————————————-
This seems like a silly way to calculate gas usage.
The Volt gets 40 mile of all-electric range (AER), so let’s call that an EREV-40. If they came out with an EREV-80, does that mean people would typically drive twice as far? I doubt it. Or if they came out with an EREV-20, will people drive half as much? No.
The amount of miles people drive per day doesn’t really depend on what type of car they’re driving, it depends on their typical driving pattern.
For example, using a typical driving pattern of:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
for a total of 11,390 total miles per year, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year …….. MPG
EREV-80 ……………. 22 ……………………… 513
EREV-40 ……………. 37 ……………………… 311
EREV-20 ……………. 98 ……………………… 116
Prius ………………… 228 …………………….. 50
30 MPG car ………… 380 …………………….. 30
20 MPG car ………… 570 …………………….. 20
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Racist??? Are you kidding? How did you get racist out of that comment?
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
I don’t know anything about 230 either.
All I can say for sure is that it comes between 229 & 231
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Don’t think so…becuase altough it would be a smart move for GM to make, GM is able able to make that kind of bold move.
Why a 230 mile EV Chevy would be a Smart Move:
* GM not nitching itself to only EREV.
* Although EREV will appeal to many consumers, EV will also appeal to manty others…why not get both types of customers?
* GM offering a EV Chevy Volt requires almost zero additonal development cost.
* GM escapes an EREV vs. EV label…becuase it offers both.
* Tesla Model S (advertising a 230 miles AER) is getting a BUNCH of cash deposit pre-orders.
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
It has to be 230mpg, why would anyone care (and why would GM call a press conf.) to announce something related to 230v?
78% of US pop, 230m? As in for 230m people, no gas used in daily commute.
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
(click to show comment)
August 8th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Using Mike Duoba’s method:
Vehicle ……………… MPG
EREV-80 ……………. 414
EREV-40 ……………. 231
EREV-20 ……………. 141
So his method implies that the amount of all-electric range matters less. But when you actually calculate gas usage using a typical driving pattern, the amount of AER matters a significantly more.
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Beating a dead horse is illegal in NYC. I will refer this case to the AG for possible prosecution. Beware that you do not have to be or live in New York for the long arm of the law to grab you and server justice. Drop the Animal Hate.
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Question: How will they pick the people who get to test the 500 test vehicles?
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Typo Corrrection:
“GM is able able to make that kind of bold move.”
should read
“GM is NOT able able to make that kind of bold move.
Sorry about that.
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
“if you hear it on TV often enough that something is really great, eventually they will start to believe it. ”
Absolutely – how else could “compassionate conservative” or “Iraq war” etc could have been sold.
TV is the undoing of democracies.
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Nice idea: I could mean the range of a new plug-in vehicle under electric power, that would definitely be something I’d buy if it was cheaper than the range extended model I REALLY want.
It could also be how many miles you get before the battery has issues and Bob Lutz appears in a cloud of smoke with his lawyer familiars to silence your heresy when you try to complain on the net.
Or it could really be , as has been suggested, the MPG rating, though that seems incredibly high. 100 MPG is considered the holy grail, so a 230 MPG number would be…unheard of, really. Unless they’ve equipped a solar roof that REALLY charges the thing on top of the best efficiency out of the range extender anyone’s ever seen, I think it’s a long shot.
I’ll be very curious about this! I’d love a 230 MPG car. Or a 230 mile electric. Heck, just give me a normal Volt and I’ll quit griping.
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Question: Will GM engage with cities/states to get a charging network in place – like Nissan – or perhaps join forces with Nissan on this ?
Question 2 : Will the pricing of Nissan Leaf affect Volt’s price ?
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August 8th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
_________________________________________________________
Good points you made except that I beleive GM can be that Bold…they were Bold in doing the EREV Volt…at some point GM will put out an EV Volt…it’s not if but when…
_________________________________________________________
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
230mpg is what can, charitably, be termed a [i]lie.[/i]
Can I put 2 gallons of gas in the vehicle, charge it and drive from The Twin Cities to Madison, WI, and back?
If the car truly gets 230mpg, sure (it’s 240 miles, you’d have 20 miles left over). But we all know that someone who tried this would end up getting stuck near Osseo on the first leg of the trip.
It’s a new kind of car, the old measurements don’t apply any more. Misleading the consumer isn’t going to win GM any business or the EPA any friends.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
It costs me $.08 including taxes and fees cents per kWh. My total electricity bill is about $15-20 a month here in Corvallis Oregon, and that’s with me forgetting to turn the lights off a lot. If I charged 8kWh every day, it would cost me about $20 more a month.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix has a 110V outlet standard.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
GM has stated they are not working on a BEV at this time.
Take it for what its worth (but i believe them).
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
So 51 miles is the highway schedule??? What an odd # to choose to use.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Not likely. Why would GM want to make a big deal about THAT?
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
ARCH
How goes geothermal?
RB
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
If the EPA city cycle is 11 miles, and if the Volt goes 40 miles electric, and then 11 more on gas, then that leaves about 4 miles to get back home. For those last 4 miles, does the driver walk? pushing the car? pushing at what speed? If the driver comes home without the car, does the test score still count? half-credit?
/ this is the most silly topic we have ever had
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
The Prius does offer a sunroof. But it’s the solar gizmo and it’s fairly expensive, $3.6K. In theory, you can get it on a Group 3 Prius, base price $23K but I’ll bet you can’t find one with sunroof but without Nav for an additiional $1.8K, for a total of $28.4K.
I sure do like having a sunroof, but $28.4K is a little much.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Maybe it’s 230 smiles, for everyone on gm-volt, 23 for Tag for optimism.
Or maybe it 230 switches for all our bad behavior. Statik where are you?
Or maybe it is 230 miles to Kalazamoo, where all GM is going on vacation.
Or maybe …
/ Is all this dreamed up by new marketing maven Maximum Bob?
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
I drive 48 miles a day. The first ~40 technically would be on electric.
Then, how much gas related to my monthly driving might I need if I am ending up using gas for 8 of those miles, six days per week, (Sunday being all electric <40)?
Technically, if the range extender gets say 50 mpg, then the gallon ought to last the whole week (only going to church on Sunday is within the 40 electric miles).
Technically only 4 gallons a month is what I ought to need for gas. But, of course, the EPA test cycle might also have the AC running, and then, I might need 50% (as a function of 10% more total energy used for the AC) of more gasoline.
Maybe it is essentially about 6 gallons of gas into 1500 miles a month which would get close to that “What is 230?” number.
The point to that would be to estimate your monthly gasoline bill of 6 gallons times the price per gallon.
Likely, we may have to price the monthly gas bill at more like 7 or 8 gallons to adjust for irregular days when we go more than 60 to 70 miles.
I like that a lot.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
I agree with you agreeing with Lyle! But perhaps for a slightly different reason. To me it’s a marketing question. You don’t call a press conference and spend time generating publicity for a mundane announcement. It needs to be for something you intend to carry on with for a while. The Volt’s MPG number would fit the bill, especially since it’s such a great number.
Being able to reduce the MPG to a single number is important, albeit, as Dave as pointed out, potentially misleading. Consumers like a single number. This gives it to them.
Two questions:
1. Does the X-Prize goal of 100 mpg, which seemed challenging when it was announced, now seem a bit limp with the Volt and the LEAF?
2. How long until the Prius 50 mpg number starts looking lame?
As for the accelerator question, I believe Greg Ceisel has answered that in the affirmative.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
The Volt battery can’t handle the quick charge. Greg Ceisel has said the wattage would be too high. (Can’t remember the exact number but it’s around 3000 watts). The quick charger Nissan uses wattage far above this.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
GM itself says the Volt is not a hybrid, but an electric car with a supplemental generator to be used if your battery dies, they call it Extended Range Electric Vehicle… you could remove the generator and the car would still drive fine, dont try that with a hybrid since they need two sources of power.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
MPG WTF !
I thought the Volt was an ELECTRIC car .
I’m outa here you nutballs.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Raspberry says the Volt has a massive carbon footprint so the question is:
Who will pay the Volt’s Carbon Tax ?
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
All the more reason for the VOLT of all vehicles to have one if GM is already including them in other vehicles.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Friggin Bob Lutz? Other than the substance of the announcement, which is obviously important, the next most interesting aspect of this campaign is …. the campaign itself. This is pretty interesting and more innovative than what we’ve seen from GM in the past. Lutz promised more use of the internet and more inventive PR, and perhaps this is the first step in that direction. If it is then kudos to him.
If they can match the Nissan web site for the LEAF I’ll be even more impressed.
While on the issue of web material, I wish GM would cut the elevator muzak on the video showing things like making the IVERs. You need a more hand held rougher cut. These things are cheesy. Smiling faces with happy music. Yuck. No one wants to watch a video which is so obviously an ad, plus the polish reduces the credibility of the content and strikes me as being very 1970s-ish. The hand held vidoes done by the guy who works for GM are WAY more interesting and credible. (Keep in mind I know nothing about advertising).
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
It’s pitiful. Don’t even think about it. Last I done heard was around 41 MPG. That is very bad for a direct injection 1.4L 4 banger. The engine is the SAME used in the Chevy Cruze, it was NEVER designed for electric generator only use.
An extremely compromised choice to cut corners and stick it to those unsuspecting owners.
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August 8th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Smoke and Mirrors.
Smoke and Mirrors.
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I think you’ve identified a breakthrough! Here is the actual text from the autoweek article:
Once the battery pack’s charge reaches a minimal level, the gasoline engine kicks in. But it doesn’t drive the wheels, it just turns a generator that supplies power to the electric motor.
OMG. Is this the FIRST time I haven’t seen the engine “charging the batteries”? They got it right!
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
To me, it seems that under your logic the only mpg. number that should be used is what the Volt gets during charge sustaining mode. And that would be grossly misleading as all drivers will do better than that and I expect my yearly mpg. will be close to 300 mpg. I agree with you E-REV is new and old ways of deternining mpg. will not work. We will have to average.
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
The power outlet face is so cute! How come all those people in the pictures get T-shirts… I want one. I like this campaign, it’s fun…
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I sense a racist tone in your comments. I hope you don’t bring this attitude to your workplace.
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
You guys are nutz. With the teaser photo released a few days ago, this ad campaign is most likely an official announcement for the new plug in Buick CUV. It probably has nothing to do with the Volt. 230 is probably the number of days until you can buy one and/or maybe the number of gallons of gas you will save in a year.
Based on the combined mileage of the current Saturn V6 Vue at about 20mpg, if the new plug in cot a combined mileage of about 32mpg, that would be a savings of about 230 gallons of gas in a year.
32mpg combined is on par with the Escape Hybrid and the advantage with the Buick will be the bigger size, more powerful engine and the ability to tow a fair amount. Hell, maybe they are going to call it the Buick 230.
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
The LEAF will be HALF THE PRICE of the Volt.
Think low 20s max.
The Volt will be low to middle 40s min.
The LEAF is a fully electric car while the Volt is only a Hybrid (similar to the Prius except with the older series-hybrid design)
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I generally agree with your point. Still, I think you have to somehow account for the range.
What struck me in your post was how meaningless those MPG numbers get.
If you tell a consumer they could get a 513MPG car or a 311MPG car I’m sure most consumers would think the 513MPG car was vastly (60%+) better. But based on your driving pattern that extra 200+MPG would only save 15 gallons/year!
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Speaking at least for myself, I wouldn’t want a sunroof if one were offered. The less sunlight coming in = the less the A/C has to work to keep the car cool.
/live near Atlanta
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I don’t think it’s likely this soon, either; but if a Chevy EV is going to be announced Aug 11:
Chevy Volt + Buick CUV + Chevy EV (all using the same large format Li/Ion LG cells) = lower cost per cell = we all win.
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Further, you clearly need a simple metric for comparing Apples to Apples. What if Hyundai hits the market with it’s EREV, with a different figure for AER and a different MPG in Charge Sustain mode? What’s a quick and simple number for efficiency comparison?
If you want to compare an EREV’s number to an ICE’s, you might just as well be comparing Apples to Grapefruit.
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
I will not be a party to your race-baiting !
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
“Who will pay the Volt’s Carbon Tax ?”
I vote for Crack Whore.
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Let’s not forget to take into consideration the amount of fuel that is used to produce the electricity that will power the volt, for the first 40 miles.
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
12,000 miles driven per year
12,000 miles / 365 days = 32.8 miles per day
365 recharges a year x $1 per charge = $365
Total cost for 12,000 miles = $365
$365 / $3.33 per gallon = 109 (would be*) gallons
12,000 miles / 109 gallons = 110 miles per gallon*
110 mpg* using electric recharge only.
___________________________________________
If a driver totals 16,000 miles per year (4000 more miles @ 45 mpg ICE) our total gallons of used gasoline (actual) jumps to 83 + 109* = 192.
12,000 miles / 192 gallons = 62.5 mpg
This is a quiet, comfortable, well optioned, luxury appointed (leather ~ gps), 6 cylinder performance, American pride in ownership vehicle.
To be available soon in a higher riding crossover version.
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Stop with the race-baiting already. Just give it a rest.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
The stench of GM Sheep has overwhelmed this site. No objectivity can be found here. Mr. Goodwrench was recently found helping that sheep cross his fence. Uh huh.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
How does the news of 23 plug in models in GM show rooms August of 2011 earn a minus 1 rating?
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
The main seeling point of an EREV is that you can still drive after the battery range of 40 miles is used up.
No one calculates MPG based on a 400 mile trip.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Another reason why the LEAF is superior.;-)
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Different people consider it different ways.
For example, if your primary consideration is energy Independence, less money for terrorists, or the economy, then the amount of fuel used to produce electricity doesn’t matter, since this fuel is all domestic.
And if your primary consideration is global warming, electricity offers the possibility of renewable, zero emission fuel sources in the future.
With this in mind, I believe merging kWh into the MPG figure sort of defeats the whole point, which is to migrate from oil to electricity.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
JHoover,
We all want to see the big picture. Please present the downside.
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
The MPG for the Volt would not be calculated on someone’s arbitrary long trip.
Be sensible.
The AVERAGE american drives a certain amount each year. Some long trips, some short. MOST people (over70%) drive less than 40 miles per day on average.
The Volt’s
MPG rating needs to speak to average folks. No one is interested in your arbitrary trip.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Totally agree about the sunroof – as do many others who do not post here. Also ,what about a convertible version? … I know, wishful thinking. LOL. Anyone have a hack saw I can borrow?
Hope to see the new aggressive GM. Go Volt go!
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Yes, good point.
Gallons Per Year (GPY) is a much better way to rate plug-ins than MPG.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
A racist tone? Are you kidding me? Exactly what do you think is racist? AFAIK there isn’t a race called “1970s-ish”.
Seriously, I pity your co-workers if you take this attitude to your workplace!
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
You’re right Don, “….it’s a marketing question. You don’t call a press conference and spend time generating publicity for a mundane announcement.” And it certainly helps that GM will be able to quote a recognized authority from our nation’s original national laboratory —Argonne National Labs— a man directly involved & responsible for this entire MPG rating by the EPA.”
BTW, I would encourage eveyone here to carefully read the presentation by Mike Duoba at Argonne (the link is in my post above) before you make your guess or criticize Lyle’s!
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Major Consensus Items of J1711
Do not combine fuel and electricity into a composite MPG Result
Report both MPG and AC Wh/mi (from plug) separately
Baseline charging assumption: 1 charge per day
Missed charge = Opportunity charging
Retain “Utility Factor”method of combining depleting with sustaining
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-distribution/japan-intends-to-expand-hydrogen-highway-system-for-whole-country/
In the end, it looks like only our President is interested in an electric car fleet. Japan is building up a hydrogen highway system. Since government run GM and Chrysler could be doomed the future big car makers might force hydrogen on us.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
And Obama also decreed: “He who has nothin’ should have less, and that which he has shall be taken from him”.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
How many daily recharges will actually be on YOUR bank account?
Savings accrued from work place recharge and other field plug in opportunities. Actual out-of-pocket on pure electric may be closer to $200 per year.
$200 / $3.33 gallons* = 60 gallons (consumer cost•) for 12,000 miles
12,000 / 60• = 200 mpg•
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
We all dream of electric sheep. So do androids.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
The LEAF price of $20k includes only the cost of the car and not the battery which you have to lease and would itself cost $20k dollars if not more. So you’re making a car payment and a lease payment that would be roughly equivalent to the car payment on a volt. An electric car is much simpler and cheaper to produce than a series hybrid. The batteries just cost you an arm and a leg if you want it to have any type of range and/or highway capability.
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August 8th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
We stopped telling Polish jokes a long time ago…
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Lyle, I’d like you to ask GM why they chose Chevrolet instead of Cadillac or maybe even Buick for the Volt. Had the Volt been a Caddy, GM could have priced it at $50K and there still would have less bother over its sales price. At the miniscule projected production volumes in the first year or two the Cadillac Volt would have still sold out.
GM could have then used the time to find the way to lower the cost of a completed vehicle, and then let the technology filter down to the Chevrolet level when GM felt it could be profitable there.
This approach – introduce new technology/product at the highest levels first, filter it down to lower levels later – was successfully followed several times during GM’s heyday in the post-WWII period……high-compression OHV V-8 engines; automatic transmissions, 2-door hardtop body style; 4-door hardtop body style all came to market in the upper product levels of GM, and came to Chevy and Pontiac a couple of years later.
As it is now, with the Volt as a Chevy, there is a lot of resistance because of its high price. Resistance which could have been avoided had the Volt been a Cadillac, or even a Buick.
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Sounds like you are a perfect candidate for a BEV, not the Volt. Why drag around the extra weight, complexity, and cost of the EREV?
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
You’ve listed some important factors from page 13 of Duoba’s ANL presentation, Dave. Thanks!
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
It was -2 when I read it, so I bumped it up to -1. No idea why it got *any* negatives.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
old man,
Great question about the feedback. GM could use OnStar (ducks and covers) to gather the data and Maaaaaybe publish it. They may more likely want to keep those cards close to the vest though. A single car (Lyle’s) would give the board SOME idea though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Dave K,
Wasn’t one of the criticisms that GM had too MANY models? 23 MORE seems over the top. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Yeah, I posted that above. Twwo great minds with a single thought.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Yeah, except I was always telling Poolish jokes!
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Jackson,
I’m with you on this one. I like the shade. Then again, the AC in my Jeep doesn’t work anyway!(lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Islander,
A convertible would kinda defeat the idea of reducing drag, I think.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Republican butthurt is strong today. Scratch that, when are they not? Butthurt + crazy = Repuiblicans.
Angry mobs at town halls screaming about Barry Hussein’s healthcare is gonna grind up grandma! End of life counseling is HITLER! Secret Mooslim Socialist Terrorist — born in KENYA! I’ve got the “born in Kenya not US” official birth certificate!1!11!!
Seriously, man up Nancy.
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Seems that so far Obama has signed off on tax cuts for 98.6% of all working households (working households being defined as households filing income taxes).
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/obama-has-cut-taxes-for-986-percent-of.html
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Lyle-
I’d like you to ask the GM execs, engineers and designers if they are are actively planning any sport or performance driving versions for the Voltec platform. The novelty of electric driving will wear off in a short while. Please don’t let this turn into a discussion of instant torque. That alone does not make a performance car. Possibly even an SS Volt as one of the trim levels that might have different programing and different suspension and handling characteristics. Hopefully not just bigger wheels a few body pieces and some stickers.
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Jackson,
If GM offered all three, they’d run out of complainers (did I say that out loud?)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Spin,
Answer: First you need to be willing to donate a kidney… (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Lets hope they are clever enough to use an electric oil pump to do that and no combustion needed at all. Just like a turbo oil timer that cools the turbo bearings. Nothing new….but clever application.
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August 8th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
stuart,
Initially, the Volt was to sell for “comfortably under 30K” which would be a sweet spot for wide acceptance – hence a Chevy. The battery technology turned out to be far more expensive than anticipated (along with several other parts) so the price has gradually risen. There is still hope that they may pull a rabbit out of their hat and break that 30K mark.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
I think it could be the miles per gallon the average driver will get with the volt.
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August 8th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
RB,
Thanks, I’ll take all the smiles I can get! Each one is priceless.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Tag,
There has been talk of plug in hybrids from GM for some time. Also mention of a Cruze which is expected to get 39 mpg. A Converj EREV. Possible Orlando EREV. And perhaps a sport plug in.
Now the truth…. Have you seen one? Where are they?
GM needs to produce or risk back sliding into the former gas guzzling, Union striking, Escalaide pushing image which brought them down.
Recent ads boast…
GM> We have more models over 30mpg
Toyota> We have more models over 35mpg
…others boast of resale value
…others of long term cost of ownership
If GM doesn’t act quickly in the PR department then they will see the Leafs, Roadsters, Focus, Aptera, Phoenix, and other models dominate the green sales market. GM must follow their talk with actual internet or show room availability.
Would be Volt sales are already taking a hit. Camaro’s are selling like hot dogs at a Dodger game. Fit, Yaris, Fusion and assorted Korean offerings face little competition. BYD stock is rising.
And most costly of all, time is passing. The question is not having too many models or not. The question is, “How thirsty will they be for gasoline”?.
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
nasaman,
The Douba article is a very interesting read. Is the “Utility factor” pretty much as BillR describes it below? I’m not doubting Bill, I just didn’t see a definition in the article.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Now that the government is involved – we may never see the car on the road. Obama will probably think it costs too much and is not fair that poor people will have to buy gas.
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August 8th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Wouldn’t that make you fellas really busy at work?
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Resistance equals Lyles’ 48,000 wait list long before the car is presented to general public?
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
jeffhre,
Three couches, no waiting, line forms on the left…. I’d be very busy with anyone depressed about missing out, present company included (Moi)…. Then again, I DO have a spare kidney.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
jeffrhe,
You should know by now that I am immune to reality. You won’t phase me a bit with facts (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
If the “main concept” was running on extended range why would a $10K battery pack be involved. That’s nuts…just leave out the battery and have a 50 or 60 MPG vehicle running on a generator.
The concept is battery. No Fuel. E range if you need it.
GM sure has an education challenge ahead of them…
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Enough Ladies.
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Maybe it means GM will have 23 plug in models by August 2011.
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
We’ve come under a lot of concentrated troll attacks, this is the first time I’ve seen one following a theme of racism.
You cafeteria trolls have really gotten a wrong number.
Over the past two years, the bona-fide, longtime members of this board have found that the idea of an EREV (Volt in particular) has been supportable over an extremely broad range of world-views and economic brackets. It is only the most deranged of imaginations which can possibly put the odor of race on our comments.
If this is not a purely random attack, and is somehow in response to criticism of President Obama’s policies, I would make the following observations:
All presidents have faced opposition. This is part and parcel of the dialogue of a politically diverse people. If you were to oppose a policy of Barack Obama, it would not follow that this must have been the result of a racist attitude.
If you were to allow Barack Obama to get away with any policy in silence, solely because of the color of his skin, would it make you any less a racist?
I’m not wasting my time here if I’ve let site visitors know that today’s negative commentary is largely one of an external influence, and that the race angle is something new.
For that external influence, I do realize that responding to you is a waste where you are concerned; but then again, I’m not really writing to you. Please leave us in peace and let us help Get The Volt’s Wheels On The Road.
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
The UF is defined on slide 24 in the article. AFAICT, it’s a fraction, with the numerator being all the miles driven in EV mode and the denominator all the miles driven. So if you and I were the only two drivers, and you drove 40 miles and I drove 50 miles, then the UF = (40+40)/(40+50) = .8888.
The actual numbers of miles driven comes from the DOT 2001 survey. FWIW I had never done the calculations, but I’ve read/heard that the Volt’s number would probably be over 200.
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Tag – Glad you liked the Douba/ANL presentation, which defines UF on page 24. (You’ll note on pg 24 that the Volt’s 40 mile AER is taken as the normal depleting range).
Regarding BillR’s independent analysis in #9 below, his references differ from the ANL presentation I cite above, yet he also concludes 230 mpg is correct —which IMO lends a bit more credence to Lyle’s (& my) guess that 230 mpg is the correct answer that GM will announce next Tuesday.
PS: Dave G in #1 above also says he gets 231 mpg using Duoba’s method
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Possible. I’d bet against it and in favor of Lyle’s guess. The problem with a number for electricity is that it’s really squishy. Not only is it based on an assumed driving pattern like the mpg number, it’s also based on an assumed cost of electricity. That really varies a lot.
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
That’s great. That is a very low use rate. Obviously you don’t have any teenagers in the house!
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Lets not forget the fuel used to produce the electricity that powered the refinery that made the gasoline!
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Only one?
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Good decision. I’ve had a sunroof on every car for years. Every once in a while – like once every two or three years — I open it and remember why I don’t do it more often.
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
The good thing is that while it may be a lie, as you suggest, it will be the same lie for everyone. It’s like playing sports in the rain — the weather is the same for both teams.
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
DonC and nasaman,
Thanks for the direction(s). That chart looks so clear until its not (lol). I’m pretty sure that my eyes will stop bleeding by Tuesday.(just kidding). The one question I have for you is WHEN do vehicles get tested? If they already HAVE been tested, can they REtest. It would bear on what they COULD say on Tuesday. They could always say that the “estimated” mpg is….(as in “their” estimate). And then again, maybe it’s not this at all!
PS I was amused by the chart that said (no matter what GM says, the Volt is a phev) lol.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Spin “Only one?”
Per week.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Lyle
What time is the press conf?
Thanks and safe trip,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Multiple sources have said Battery for car costs about $10K.
Nissan has said lease for battery + electricity charge <= gas expense per month.
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August 8th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
I believe it will do an “engine conditioning” cycle or something like that if the engine hasn’t been run for a while. Also, if your gas is really, really old, it’ll run the engine to burn it off until it goes bad.
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
August 8th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Jackson,
I’m sorry that I could only give you a plus 1. I’m also sorry that you let that gnat get under your eyelid (yes, it’s that irritating). As you said, we know who we are and what a thoroughly color-blind site this is. Given the diversity of the beliefs and the strong-willed souls here, it’s amazing that we all get along so well!
Let the troll slink back under its’ bridge and pray for high water.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Hi Lyle,
Here’s a question for our GM friends?
Why waste time and money building and trying to sell a New non-plug-in hybrid Buick Crossover when it’s obvious the plug-in hybrid version will be the better vehicle?
NPNS!
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
True, but if you check the small print on the box it comes in, it says “Not including batteries”.
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
2.30 pm lol.
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
You are driving along in your Volt. You hear a female voice through your sound system….
V> Joe G?
Joe> You speaking to me?
V> Joe… you haven’t been using your tank reserve. And I can see there are 3.7 gallons available.
Joe> Wait a minute… who are you?
V> Who I am isn’t important.
Joe> What do you want from me?
V> You must use your reserve within 7 days or I will perform the function remotely.
Joe> But you can’t do that.
V> There is nothing more to say.. goodbye.
OnStar .. free for one year in new GM cars.
=D~
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
8:30 AM EDT, I think, they haven’t actually said. I could be off an hour or two.
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
All are talking about mpg. Maybe they have decided to launch the Volt in 230 days. The board said they wanted to speed things up.
Wouldn’t that be a hoot. April 1st—April Fools Day.
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
NZDavid,
Thanks. Did I miss it? Uh no. It never SAYS 2:30 !
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Thanks, NZDavid has been pulling my leg (about 2:30)(lol).
The earlier it is, the better for the news cycle.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 8th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
A BEV in my case for my needs would be absolutely absurd.
It would have me out of business with a lot of irritated customers who need me to be on the other side of town at 4:00 pm.
(A BEV is blasphemy! LOL!!).
I would have to fast-charge at two or three locations a day, which would extend my work day by 14 more hours!
I would be stuck at my (home) office when I need to be somewhere 4 times a day, three times a week.
My trips are not two-ways unfortunately. They are 7 to 9 segments, and no BEV could ever cut that.
Plugging in at home from a cable sprung from the garage ceiling once a day would work.
Fooling around trying to find a place to plug in a BEV would absolutely not work for me at all, because when the next shop needs me to come to diagnose a stubborn problem, I can’t possibly wait hours before I start out to go there.
My work days are long enough in the heat as well. No way am I going to get caught in any death-trap-toaster BEV and put my life at risk in this new Global Purgatory (no, it’s not just global warming anymore, it’s GLOBAL PURGATORY!) that we are suffering here in Austin.
No BEV. NO WAY. EVER!! I WON’T EVEN TEST ONE!!
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Dan,
I absolutely agree. A BEV would not be a good fit for your driving pattern.
It does fit mine nicely, though.
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August 8th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Lyle, I have a question for GM.
Did they pay off Statik to dismiss himself from this site? I am still a little skeptical on Statiks resignation. How does one go from being the number on poster in both quantity and quality, to going completely cold turkey.
Something smells, and it ain’t Lithium…..
Maybe that darn pink tie was part of the deal?
Dang, I really miss his posts
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
off the topic :
When we were reading on aerodynamics – the volt guy told the Cd and marketing stuff.
Now i started to think GM has a calibration issue : 2010 Camaro failed to get 5 star safety rating where all others have. I think GM tests need to be tightened to industry standard.
Looks GM’s tests are below industry standard as they expected 5 stars for camaro and same in volt aerodynamics.
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
The mileage should be usage based since the mileage will depend on the amount of miles driven per day.
I posted my own approach in an earlier thread, which I think would represent current potential usage using a 24 hr driving cycle, which represents to most practical usage given the overnight recharge as part of the driving cycle and reflecting the fact that in one 24 hr cycle only one recharge is the most practical at least in the near future. This methodology would show a variable gasoline mileage rating based on the amount driven. The more one drives per one day cycle the lower the gasoline mileage gets.
The following driving/usage model could be a guide for determining the Volt’s MPG. For the near future the most obvious usage model is overnight charging in one’s own garage at least until a more widespread infrastructure is developed. Therefore the mileage is best determined by DAILY usage, i.e between overnight recharges. If one drives 100 miles/day, the mileage will be a lot lower then one drives 50 miles/day. Assuming 1.5 gallons of gasoline used in the first case and a third of a gallon in the second case, the mileage would be 66.6 mpg (or better yet gmpg) and 151 mpg respectively. (Obviously the 40 electric mile is included.,) The more generic method to determine this would be. MPG measured between recharges. In the present case this is represented by a one day cycle (overnight recharge). It seems to me that a reasonable average EPA mileage could be devised from above usage. I hope the government will see it this way. The above numbers would only be a starting base line standard until improved recharging infrastructure develops when the daily use concept would be replaced by use between recharge (multiple daily recharge.)
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
The mileage should be usage based since the mileage will depend on the amount of miles driven per day.
I posted my own approach in an earlier thread, which I think would represent current potential usage using a 24 hr driving cycle, which represents to most practical usage given the overnight recharge as part of the driving cycle and reflecting the fact that in one 24 hr cycle only one recharge is the most practical at least in the near future. This methodology would show a variable gasoline mileage rating based on the amount driven. The more one drives per one day cycle the lower the gasoline mileage gets.
The following driving/usage model should be the guide for determining the Volt’s MPG. For the near future the most obvious usage model is overnight charging in one’s own garage at least until a more widespread infrastructure is developed. Therefore the mileage is best determined by DAILY usage, i.e between overnight recharges. If one drives 100 miles/day, the mileage will be a lot lower then one drives 50 miles/day. Assuming 1.5 gallons of gasoline used in the first case and a third of a gallon in the second case, the mileage would be 66.6 mpg (or better yet gmpg) and 151 mpg respectively. (Obviously the 40 electric mile is included.,) The more generic method to determine this would be. MPG measured between recharges. In the present case this is represented by a one day cycle (overnight recharge). It seems to me that a reasonable average EPA mileage could be devised from above usage. I hope the government will see it this way. The above numbers would only be a starting base line standard until improved recharging infrastructure develops when the daily use concept would be replaced by use between recharge (multiple daily recharge.)
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August 8th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Let me say in advance – THIS IS A JOKE!!!
I think that on 08-11-2009, GM will annouce that their credit score has once again reached 230!!!! Let the good times roll!!!!
OK, now seriously:
Lyle, here is my question for GM:
What type of application process will they use to select the drivers of the Volt test fleet?
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
Another fivethirtyeight.com reader, nice to see
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
This is Lutz’s doing. He specifically talked about viral marketing in an interview about his reemployment a few weeks back. Now if I could just find the stinkin’ link…
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
I want to hear how they plan on getting a hold of a 20ish KW/H usable capacity battery for $10k. Or are they just planning on using the batteries full capacity from day one and taking a huge loss when all their batteries fail after 5 years or less; because there isn’t an affordable Lithium based chemistry that can take that kind of punishment at a reasonable cost. I’ll believe it when I see it.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
Actually all the rest of us are paying your electric bill. Thank the Bureau of Reclamation and 300 million taxpayers for giving you nearly-free (to you) hydroelectricity via massive infrastructure projects like the Grand Coulee Dam on the Columbia River.
I’m not against hydropower, I just want people to understand that their free lunch isn’t free. Most of these dams are the result of bureaucratic turf wars between the Bureau of Reclamation and the Army Corps of Engineers, both competing to build any dam anywhere, no matter the inutility or how uneconomic it is. Grand Coulee was a great site for a dam, as was Hoover, but most dams would never have been built if people had an ounce of sense. Poor soils or geologic geometry or lack of reasonable climate. Case in point: reservoir-fed rice paddies in the semi-arid, permanently sunny and 100 degree California Central Valley near Sacramento, that are essentially criminally-senseless freshwater evaporators.
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August 8th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
There will be a draw and the first 230 names picked by a Las Vegas bookie will receive a free Volt.
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August 9th, 2009 at 1:24 am
I agree. For both good things and bad things, the media bends the will of the people. Even this website to one degree or another.
I don’t always agree with the outcome. I’m just stating my observation of the effect.
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August 9th, 2009 at 1:40 am
It’s a joke people!
More specifically, a line from a very old Flip Wilson joke.
Google him if you don’t know who he is.
Way too many serious people today. Lighten up a little.
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August 9th, 2009 at 2:28 am
Still lurking around…..
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August 9th, 2009 at 2:31 am
Engage drivers in a Ker-plunk deadmatch!
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August 9th, 2009 at 3:01 am
Isn’t this a bit unfair to BEVs? A pure electric like the Tesla Roadster “only” gets ~100-135mpge (directly converted from gasoline energy equivalence). Now the Volt gets twice that much? To be fair, the adjustment factor by the EPA for BEVs does push Tesla’s corporate mpg number to 256mpg (the number they can use to advertise, but Tesla chooses not to, since it is misleading), but the adjustment factor might push the Volt’s number higher too.
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August 9th, 2009 at 3:02 am
I think Statik will come back. May be in another role like random visitor and poster but he will come back. The main reason Voltage site where Statik actively involved has The Moderator. I tried twice getting trough with questions/posts but without any success. My questions where quite open but not edited enough on smartphone.
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August 9th, 2009 at 4:17 am
Isn’t this a bit unfair to BEVs?….
The Volt is not going to get a 230 mpg rating. The Volt should get a 50/110 rating. This being: ICE mpg/EV mpg.
One post here mentions that the 39mpg Cruze motor to be used in the Volt means the Volt will only make 39mpg. This is wrong. The Cruze uses the ICE to power the car throughout the speed range. This being 2000rpm to 4000rpm. The Voltec system does not load the ICE, it loads the electric motor. All the ICE does is freewheel at a moderate speed to produce electricity for the wheel driving electric motor to do the work. The workload of the Volt ICE is equivalent to the Cruze driving on a flat surface at 35mph – 50mph. I expect 50mpg.
The mystery ad: Green background with 23 (plug in) 8-11 refers to something other than mpg. If the ad were aimed at mpg it wouldn’t have an “8-11″ attached to it. 8-11 is a date. And we have a firm date for Volt release being 2010.
If the meaning of the ad is to convey 23 vehicles with plug in capability in August 2011. Why is the plug symbol next to the 23 and not below it? The answer… to drive home the point of 230 V quick charge.
My bet is on 23 GM offerings with plug in ~ target date of 08/2011. Several here are going to very happy to see a sport EREV. The mini truck EREV should be the lowest priced of the lot.
=D~
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August 9th, 2009 at 4:51 am
What type of application process will they use to select the drivers of the Volt test fleet?
1> GM friendly drivers (not an Aptera sales manager)
2> Varied driving condition locations (heat,cold,mountainous,damp,sandy)
3> Crime free background
4> Excellent driving record
The smart way to recruit test drivers for the Volt is directly through GM dealerships. This will draw customers and allow paperwork and background checks to be run before a lottery begins. The result will be 1000’s of Impala and Malibu sales. And more exposure to the Camaro (as if it needs more). I expect people who currently own GM products to be favored.
=D~
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August 9th, 2009 at 5:38 am
23 Gal of gas + Electricity
will give 1200 mile range
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August 9th, 2009 at 5:43 am
I was thinking the same thing, if it was about 230 volts, they would not bother with an advertising campaign of this nature. It would be more like a “by the way” comment when discussing various features.
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August 9th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Lyle, I have 2 questions you probably know the answers to as you have driven the Mule (or they may have been answered somewhere that i have not seen). in any case, I would like to know:
1) does the Volt when it is in gear creep forward when you have your foot off the break? and
2) does the volt have traction control to prevent the wheels from spinning on take off?
Thanks
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August 9th, 2009 at 6:20 am
If you’ve ever hooked up a meter to your wall outlet, you’ll see that the AC voltage varies. 110, 115, 120 – these are all within the range of that variation. So this is just different names for the same thing.
220 volts is a little different story. In North America, electric companies alternate current (AC) at a rate of 60 times per second (60 Hz). In Europe, they use 50 Hz. So 220v in the U.S. is very different than 220v in Europe.
Also, even within North America, some 220v connections use 4 wires (phase 1, phase 2, neutral, and ground), and some use only 3 wires (no neutral connection), so the connectors are different.
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August 9th, 2009 at 6:32 am
I would be more worried about stale gas than engine lubrication, so if the engine hasn’t been used in the last month or two, I would like the software to run it for a while automatically.
Most people don’t want to have to think about this stuff, so it should be automatic. For the few people that are really bugged by this, they could have some option buried deep in the menus. But the default should be automatic.
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August 9th, 2009 at 6:37 am
Lyle, please query GM:
1) The overwhelming majority of my GM-VOLT.COM want to now if I will be one of the 500 test consumers as per the recent Recovery Act awards funded by the DOE?
2) Will the Volt’s ICE be identical to the one being offered in the Cruze or will the combustion cycle be modified Atkinson?
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August 9th, 2009 at 6:39 am
cconbs,
Yeah, I remember the comment. Pretty good for cross generational thinking! (I mean for Bob)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 9th, 2009 at 6:46 am
The debate over what single milage or other single number to rate the Volt is pointless, other than for fluff marketing and CAFE. For consumers, we need to know 4 things in order to resonable predict how the car will perform for us: cty/hwy AER, cty/hwy mpg for ER mode. The most appropriate method to present these is using the current EPA rating methodology.
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August 9th, 2009 at 7:05 am
That sounds good to me!
Maybe I will stop by my local Chevy dealership and ask if they have a Volt waiting list started yet. If not, start one and put my name on it!!
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August 9th, 2009 at 7:05 am
The logo is 23 not 230!
On 8-11, GM will announce 23 year financing plans for the Volt.
We’ll also be introduced to “Pluggy”, the talking Volt charging cord.
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August 9th, 2009 at 7:13 am
I didn’t down vote it, but 23 models? Do you realize what you’re saying? Maybe 2 or 3. They haven’t even officially green lit the Converj yet. I don’t even know if they will have 23 models of any kind now that half of their current brands are going to be gone by 2011.
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August 9th, 2009 at 7:15 am
Cool theory, but doesn’t make a lot of sense since the 78% is zero gas, and 22% will hardly use any gas, not all gas all the time.
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August 9th, 2009 at 7:30 am
23 models? Do you realize what you’re saying?
Two years is a long time. Three manufactures from Japan along with a Korean truck manufacturer are sure to have plug in offerings by 2011.
NGMCO can build 5 or six plug in vehicles on the Volt platform. 4 on the Converj platform. Another 7 hybrid / plug in models. 4 urban “Leaf” clones. And a few glorified golf cart “segway” vehicles.
Perhaps NGMCO is eyeing a smaller producer as a take over candidate?
If NASA can put a man on the moon using tin foil and a Pentium 1, then 23 plug ins by 8•01 is doable.
=D~
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August 9th, 2009 at 7:38 am
They would only be able to offer an extra ~6-7kWh in the batteries by removing the ICE and putting the money into more cells. This would only get you about another 15-20 miles (for a total of about 55-60 miles AER) if you’re lucky. The ICE only costs GM about $2,000 to throw in a Volt. I’d rather have the ICE to condition the batteries so they live as long as possible, and make sure I never get stranded without an outlet. Nobody would want to buy it when comparing them side by side.
Yes they could probably find some way to claim it goes 100 miles (if you’re going downhill, with a tail wind, on your birthday) but making an EV with less than 100 mile of actual range would be PR suicide when people buy them for their 50 mile each way commute and get stuck in their cars in some dark neighborhood 3 miles from home. You know that would happen, there’s a lot of dumb people out there.
Wait for the price of batteries to come down before any reasonably affordable and reliable BEVs hits the roads.
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August 9th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Correction on the above date, meant 8•11
GM is known for it’s ability to produce hardware other than cars. Tanks for example. Do you think there is a demand for ranch and farm EREVs? Who has the biggest newest battery lab in America? Do you think it will be used to produce just 5 or 6 new batteries per year?
Possible release of an EREV camping vehicle with plug in bicycle included? Power your campsite and/or plug in at the KOA?
=D~
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August 9th, 2009 at 8:11 am
I think that if GM includes Lyle in the 500 test fleet drivers they will have shown great confidence in the Volt’s performance. His NOT being included is cause for a bit of concern.
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August 9th, 2009 at 8:43 am
i dont see a problem w/the math. X is the total length of the trip. (X-40) is the length of the trip at 50MPG. To calculate the total MPG, you need to divide the total length (X), by the total gas used (X-40)/50MPG.
So it looks like this
Final MPG = X/((X-40)/50) or 50X/(X-40)
If you want to see a chart for this go here
http://www.walterzorn.com/grapher/grapher_e.htm
and put in this equation
y=50*x/(x-40)
and set your Xmin = 40, Xmax = 100, Ymin = 0, Ymax = 500
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August 9th, 2009 at 8:44 am
It’s not a lie at all. My car does 36.1MPG. That’s a pretty solid statement, and of course there is some variation – sometimes the instant consumption is 8mpg, sometimes it’s 60 (and sometimes it is trvavelling, but using no fuel, when going downhill or crusing to a stop at a roundabout. Should i remove those miles from my calculation??). However, after 28,000 miles i’ve used 775gallons of fuel. It has done 36.1MPG.
Same with the Volt. at any point in time, i can look at the odometer and check the gallons burned on the trip computer. What will it say? I can’t be certain, but with a 34mile daily commute i’m sure it will be at least 200mpg.
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August 9th, 2009 at 8:46 am
We’ll also be introduced to “Pluggy”, the talking Volt charging cord…
…and “Reese” the talking plug in receptacle.
I like it.
=D~
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August 9th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
I have one very obvious question to ask :
Do GM intend to give any form of preference to the GM-Volt sign-up list of people interested in buying the Volt ?
They could, for example, send us in advance (before it becomes public) a list of dealers authorized to sell the Volt in our area so we can go and make a deposit. Better yet, they could send our name and email to dealers in our area that would contact us to know if we are truly interested.
Whatever the form, will there be a consideration given to Lyle’s list ? How will it work ?
Thanks.
P.S. Congrats to Statik for his new role in the Volt adventure, if what I read is true.
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August 9th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
I agree !
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August 9th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
It’s not humanly possible in that time frame.
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August 9th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I will be interested to hear the argument for why this is a fair way to measure MPG. Perhaps a better measure would be average CO2 production per mile.
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August 9th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
If the 230 campaign represents 230 mpg: I like the simplicity–very powerful way to market the car. Waaayyyy better than getting into all the detail, which would only confuse most people. Have that detail ready in case you need it, but lead w/ the main benefit. The Prius ads already cover the ’save the earth’ angle. GM’s can say, ‘hey, we get 4x better mileage than the Prius and 10x better than the average car. In fact, you can drive gas free if you want. Shake the sheik. Enter the No Gas Needed Club. Daaaaaa Volt, my friends.’
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August 9th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
It’s the $230 that GM’s getting from the Opel sale.
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August 9th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
That’s what I think too. The question is in the style of Johnny Carson’s Karnac (sp?) routine. Hold up an envelope to his head and say “what is 230?” then open the envelope and read the “question” of “How many days to the Chevrolet Volt is available for delivery”
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August 9th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
That would be SWEET, but the envelope is still on Funk and Wagnals porch (g). During a chat one of the GM guys ruled that out for the “production” Volt. Maybe the Preproductions???
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 9th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
August 9th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
I have it – 230 is Statik’s IQ!
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August 9th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
I have seen the commercial online once, but noone else seems to have heard about it, is the commercial on TV much?
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August 10th, 2009 at 3:21 am
230 mpg? That’s absolutely ridiculous! Just fill one gallon in the tank, fully charge the battery and see how far you can get…
You won’t get 230 miles even on a perfect-flat, non-stopping test course.
Above all – those speculative figures don’t mean anything for real life. You have 40 miles all-electric range. That’s the point. The ICE mode won’t be above 60 mpg, but the goal is to burn NO gas at all…
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August 10th, 2009 at 7:40 am
“Perception is Reality”. When it comes to the masses, if you hear it on TV often enough that something is really great, eventually they will start to believe it. How else do you think Obama got elected President?
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I’m guessing that this was somehow the offending paragraph. It was my impression that CorvetteGuy was referring to the impression of an unquestioning and obsequious White House press corps.
I suspect it was less a case advertising, than our current President’s confident demeanor and his public speaking ability. All the gifts of Jesse Jackson in a watered-down, non-confrontational package. That his confidence is groundless won’t become clear to most people for another few years. By then he may actually have learned the job.
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back to the topic….
I have to agree with the 230-day return of the electric car idea based on the simplicity of it. However if the number does not count down after August 11 we’ll need another theory.
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August 10th, 2009 at 7:45 am
I thought the fact he was from Cook County was already a disqualifier …. they love democracy so much there even the dead get to vote.
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August 10th, 2009 at 7:50 am
It’s not fear of the unknown it’s the current lack of plugs at the curb. Just like it was when you had to lash jerry cans full of gasoline to the trunk and running boards to cross the dirt roads of this country.
I say an EV is a step up. At least you won’t have to hand crank the thing.
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