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Poll: VOLT vs LEAF
As soon as the Nissan LEAF electric car unveiling hit the wire, comparisons with the Volt began. It will be of interest to see what we here at GM-Volt.com think. Here’s a run down, with a poll at the end.
Design
Sure the Volt isn’t what its concept was but its no slouch either. Its a taught upright rakish car with a broad aggressive grille and stout sharp looks, though some people consider it plain-looking. The LEAF looks like the Versa cousin on which its nearly based, though its has a bit of a frilly swirl to it and a narrow nose straddled by two bulging bubble-like head lamps and an “oddly concave back end” as one writer put it. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so decide for yourself.
Interior
Both cars showcase their technology in the dash. Both have dual LCD screens and a unique shifter. LEAF went with a mouseball type, where as the Volt has a pull down lever. LEAF has a bright, white, airy appearance whereas the Volt has a sporty interior. LEAF gets a 3rd passenger in the back row, Volt cannot. Both have sizable hatchbacks for storage.
Performance
LEAF has top speed of 87 MPH and unknown 0 to 60 though one reporter guesses “high sevens”. Torque is 280 Nm. Volt does 0 to 60 in 8.5 seconds, has a torque of 370 Nm, a top speed of 100 MPH and can squwak the wheels. Volt likely weighs more and both will have a low center of gravity. Ride and handling in either car is unknown.
Connectivity
The Volt is connected to a central monitoring station in Detroit via GM’s tried and true satellite-based OnStar. LEAF is connected to a global monitoring center through an unknown connection system.
Range
This is where the cars differ drastically. The Volt will travel 40 miles on electricity. That will be on both highway and city driving at a moderate temperature. Expect AC and heat to cut into this somewhat, but certainly with careful driving, people are likely to be able to get more EV range. LEAF is said to get 100 miles of range but most experts think this is an exaggeration and will be significantly reduced by HVAC and aggressive driving. I can say that is likely based on my personal experience having logged more than 2000 miles personally in a MINI E, and getting closer to 70 miles of range with a 35 kwh pack.
The key advantage to the Volt is it can continue to be driven without limit beyond 40 miles due to its gas range extender and the fact that there are gas stations everywhere. LEAF dies at 100 miles. To recharge it you’ll have to wait 16 hours if you are away from home. There are no $45,000 high voltage public fast chargers now, but Nissan has teamed with a company called eTec to get 250 installed in 5 major US regions.
With LEAF long road trips are not possible.
Batteries/Warranty
Both cars are using lithium-ion manganese batteries. Nissan’s formulation are very large laminate cells of which the car contains 88 total making up the 24 kwh pack. The pack will discharge much more deeply than the Volt and not have the same thermal management protection, especially in cold weather where operation is particularly abusive to the cells. Volt can turn on the ICE if its too cold to warm the pack first. Volt will also offer 10 year 150,000 mile warranty and Nissan has not said what it would offer, though Mark Perry director of product planning at Nissan told me “We’re going to do a very competitive warranty and we haven’t announced it yet.”
“Think about if form a consumer standpoint,” he says. “How long to people keep cars?, who keeps a car 10 years or 150,000 miles? Our aim is mass acceptance then, whatever than number happens to be.”
Environment/Efficiency
The LEAf as a pure electric car will never use any gasoline, which is what Nissan is heavily promoting calling it a pure zero-emissions vehicle. This attribute is also the car’s limitation. Volt can use gas or E85 if necessary, but for 78% of the population’s daily drives it will use no gas at all.
Price
It seems clear the Volt will retail around $40,000 including the batteries which are not likely to be leased. The LEAF will likely retail around $30,000 plus a separate battery lease. Since the battery costs at least $10,000, monthly cost of ownership should be similar.
Rollout
Nissan has announced it will roll out 5000 LEAFs in 5 geographic regions beginning at the end of 2010. Those cars will be sold to consumers through selected dealerships. Buyers will have to qualify and will be required to provide feedback for a study. Volt rollout plans have still not been announced though sources tell me they too will initially be in a limited geographic distribution. GM has all but stated 10,000 cars will be built in the first year of production.
So which do you prefer and why? – Here are the poll results collected over a 24 hour period:
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:12 am
Personally, I think the Leaf is ugly; although, it may appeal to a much different group. I’ve been following the Volt for over 2 years, so I can’t wait until one is sitting in my garage.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:19 am
After reading the post I think I know which car Lyle favors. (smile)
For me, the Leaf is going to be available where I live years before the Volt. Actually it is unclear that the Volt with its limited build numbers will ever be available through the reputable local Chevy dealers (we have a couple who specialize in big talk but no performance.) So, for Lyle there may be a choice, but for me there’s not a choice.
Besides, I like the Leaf, which has plenty of range for my use, and I like its lower price.
/Interesting that this is 2nd post when posted and will descend to post 100 or so by this afternoon as the sub, sub-sub etc insertions into post 1 take over.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:19 am
I need either 25 miles (commute and errands) or 200 miles (visit family on the weekend) range. For me 100 miles is just 75 more than I’ll ever need for a commute but not nearly good enough to do my weekend trips. I can’t justify 30K plus a car lifelong lease for a pure commuter vehicle.
I do like that the leaf has 3 seats in the back but other than that I’ll stick with the volt or better yet the EREV Orlando that may only get 25 miles AER if it has the same battery as the volt.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:19 am
The the Leaf battery, I suspect, will be problematic, but thanks for the competition Nissan.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:23 am
First, I hope. It is a shame that GM doesn’t make both and EREV and pure BEV. That way they could put a lock on both markets and please everyone. It seems that with the technology they have, it would not be hard to put a larger pack and take out the ICE. Don’t you think?
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:23 am
Nobody really knows which one will be cheaper so I can not see anyone basing their decision on price.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Joe says its not reasonable to base a choice on price at this time.
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I agree, but availability is another matter.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:31 am
I agree. The Volt is a more attractive car.
I don’t relish the thought of being towed when the battery runs out of juice. Shoot, I drive a standard shift now and have had to pop start it a few times.
For me, Voltec is the clear winner.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:33 am
100 mile range with a 24kwh battery? Who’s driving? On what schedule. I’ll believe it when I see it. I’d like to see what the CD will be on the leaf, and gross vehicle weight.
Point is… Volt has concrete plans, we’ve seen IVERs and mules and EDVs. Where are Nissans vehicles? I think GM is way ahead on the actual vehicle development, and they have the evidence to back it up.
I wouldn’t be surprised if GM does eventually produce an EREV and BEV. I think as technology advances we will see lots of applications of the Voltec RESS.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:42 am
My household could use one of each. I would buy the more functional, better looking, and better warranteed American one first. Hopefully there will be a viable US auto BEV option available when it comes time for the second car.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:45 am
The Volt and it’s children will blow the leaf away. Period. (It’s early – more when I’m awake).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:50 am
The Leaf has all the characteristics that contributed to the killing of EVs: Ugly, limited range, expensive…
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:54 am
One Hundred Five degrees is what it was yesterday.
The return trip home from work in the Leaf might have you going slower and slower in the breakdown lane. And, if there was a really slow traffic jam that lasted an hour, at 105 degrees, most Texans would not want to become “Texas Toast”, nor would they want their BEV battery cells to become “Texas Toast”.
I find that it is a strong clue of the severe limitations of Leaf when the Volt 10 year 150,000 mile warranty is “dissed”.
“Who keeps a car ten years anyway” = “[Don't even expect us to come anywhere near 10 years, and, you know the PSP battery swap thingy? Well, we're going to make a killing on you by selling the heck out of battery packs to you, and justify that by telling you you didn't have to buy gas. That's all our money now, OURS!!]”
“([LOL,LOL,LOL)]”
Not likely would Texas be one of their “regions”.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:57 am
Your daily commute of 25 miles will not stress the battery in your Leaf at all, it should last a long time as a result. The weekly 200 mile trip is going to be a problem for you.. that is too often to rent a car or a range extending trailer.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:57 am
The Volt fits my personal application the best and that is what I would choose over this BEV. I will say further though that if the competition was the Volt vs. say a “blue star” Tesla that would look gorgeous like the Model S, with a 250 mile range or more, than I wonder if the numbers would skew a lot further apart? But that is another poll for another time.
I do have to give Nissan a lot of credit here. I really like the approach they took with the Leaf in that it is a purebread through and through. They are not making apoligies for it either–take notice? Nissan is approaching it like “here is a pure BEV, it is what it is, take it or leave it”. I have to admire that approach because it is a bit of a gutsy stand to take. A public charging infrastructure will help support the pure BEV’s as they come available in the future, but for the now, the EREV is the best idea going IMO.
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August 7th, 2009 at 6:59 am
I said it before and I say it again:
With a top speed of 100mph/160kmh the Volt is unsellable in Europe – especially Germany.
But I’m sure Opel will add a few mph/kmh for the Ampera
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:01 am
I’m a pragmatist and I could never accept the limited range of the LEAF; I’m also a great admirer of beautifully-styled cars and I could never live with the “CATFISH I” as someone here aptly named the Nissan the other day! [What ever happened to the guys that styled the handsome Altima?!?]
/….but as Lyle & many others here know, a choice between yesterday’s Buick plug-in CUV and the plug-in Volt would be very tough for me (I guess I’ll simply have to own both)!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:02 am
I sure would like to see and maybe test drive some of these cars before I am asked to choose…….
But based on specs alone, I prefer the Volt!
Go GM! Go GM Volt Team!
NPNS
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:05 am
Very well put!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Love the term Texas Toast. I hadn’t heard that before, but then again 100 degrees rarely comes up in conversation in Penna.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:11 am
But 100mph is pretty much a non-issue in North America, though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:11 am
I have another Idea for Volt, but, it is (if I do say so myself), a pretty good one that I want only for Voltec.
I need a way to share it confidentially. Would “TellFritz” be the proper way?
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Suddenly have a craving for French toast. Thanks Dan!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Some thoughts as requested by Lyle:
range:
for the moment, its the generator that wins me over. 120 to 160 km (75 to 100 miles) is plenty of range, but this should be considered as 60 to 80km as you have to factor in a round trip (lest you can charge when you get to your destination, and wait for the car to be fully charged). Pure electric is great, but knowing I can drive my 60km down the coast and not worry if I can make it back is pretty darn important.
Cargo space:
The volt seems to have more cargo space, with the Leaf looking like it could not even hold a pram or a week’s worth of shopping. perhaps its just the camera angles, but the space looks quite small. the extra seat for the 3rd child is very good, as is the ability for everyone getting into the back to climbing though the one door closest to the curb. I can live with a 4 seat car, though 5 would be nice for the safety of entering the car alone.
Battery:
I for one would want a battery that will last as long as possible – if it was only 5 years, you’d kill the resale value very quickly. in the alternative with leasing, there is no way I would lease a battery, it just does not make sense to have a complicated agreement covering ongoing fees over use of the car once you have paid so much already – this fee would never end; even after 10 years when you would in all likelihood still be using the same battery in the Volt. I also know GM has put a lot of thought into their batter, so I know it will last quite some time in any climate
Looks:
I actually prefer the Volt, but I think the Volt just sits too low to the ground. I’m afraid a speed bump will damage the underbelly or front end of the car.
I was most impressed with the interior design of the Leaf dashboard, but the ball thing for the shifter was a bit over the top – a bit too geeky for me at this stage. That said, I can’t say I’m over impressed with the shifter in the Volt either, or its central control panel. I’ll have to try this to know which feels the best but overall the Volt still probably wins out for me.
Navigation system:
I have no idea what Onstar is like with GM, I don’t even know if it is offered in Australia as I had never heard of it before coming to this web site. If there is a subscription required, just give me a Navman and be done with it! if whatever Nissan offers is the same as Onstar, then this isn’t a factor. Actually I’ve found the Navman pretty much is all I need as I can take it with me, use it in any car, it’s very functional and easy to use. I’ve used a biuld in navigation system, and I can’t say I was overly impressed. It was a huge added expense and still didn’t beat the Navman. I may be proved wrong though.
Front wheel drive:
I am really put off with the Volts front wheel drive. The city I live in is very hilly, and when it rains, it pours! This is very bad for traction. snow and ice may be more cooperative with front wheel drive, but rain is not, and it rains more than it snows. But if there is traction control built in, it won’t be a problem and front wheel drive will be just as good as back wheel drive. I’d put up with this for an electric car, but if the option was to have rear drive, I’d seriously consider this. As stated however, if traction control was there, this would not be a problem.
Over all, it is still the Volt that wins for me. In order of important – the lease alone of a battery would kill the deal as would battery longevity, then it would come down to range, front or back wheel drive, cargo space, internal features, and lastly looks – though I’d still want to drive something that at least resembles a car!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:18 am
It’s more of a monthly to bi-monthly 200 mile trip and then 3 times a year we go on a 400 mile (each way) trip. For this reason I’d much prefer an EREV over a pure BEV. I’d be fine recharging a BEV every 300 miles if it only took 15 minutes or less. I don’t think we’ll be there for quite some time though.
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:18 am
Tag says Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
——————————
Yes indeed
GM seems to be losing its electric-car focus these days. So many different products, just like the old GM.
LJGTVWOTR.
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Except that the Volt has to be available at more than a few selected celebrity sites, in reasonable numbers, or it is not going to blow anything away.
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Nissan:
“Think about if form a consumer standpoint,” he says. “How long to people keep cars?, who keeps a car 10 years or 150,000 miles? Our aim is mass acceptance then, whatever than number happens to be.”
___________________________________________
This argument is ridiculous. The value of the car especially the resale value will depend on that expensive component, the battery. The long warranty is a must.
I do not think the comparison between an EREV and BEV makes much sense. EREV should win hands down for most people. If not then EREV-s existence is hardly justifiable unless one can justify the BEV as a second car.
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:21 am
The pack is part of the Chassis and for the space they allotted I think they’re cramming all the cells they can into that pack. If they wanted to replace the engine with batteries it would be a major undertaking because you’d need an entirely differnt pack and environmental system in that new location. I think if you want a Volt Bev just make sure you charge it every day and don’t drive over 40 miles.
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:22 am
RB,
Not sure how to read your post. Is it positive or negative?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:23 am
I prefer the Volt for the following reasons:
-looks (my personal preference), Leaf is FUGLY
-range extender for long trips (required for myself)
-it’s a Chevy (I do not buy Japanese cars)
-warranty (I do not trade in every 3 years like some lucky folks)
-suits my needs (I don’t care about 5 seats versus 4)
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:23 am
only one car in your family?
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:23 am
RB,
Agreed, but “Patience, Grasshopper” (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:30 am
The Volt wins easily. The Volt looks a whole lot nicer and is an extended range vehicle so you can own just one vehicle for all of your needs instead of 2 (1 LEAF and 1 regular ICE car for longer trips).
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Should we be surprised by the poll results? It’s like going to Rush Limbaugh’s website and polling people if they like McCain or Obama. lol.
Yes, I picked the Volt!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:35 am
It’s a bias question to ask here… I don’t need a survey to know the result, the Volt.
If the LEAF had the same follow up site and the same question would be ask there, the result would be in favor of the LEAF.
Both car are good as they are removing us from our addiction to Oil.
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:37 am
Chris,
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!
Be well,
Tagamet
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:40 am
The biggest limitation with both vehicles…price.
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:41 am
Schmeltz,
I agree about the Model S comparison. That would be interesting. Especially if the price of BOTH of them came down (but the Tesla has farther to drop to become “accessible”).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Is there any indication as of yet as to true Volt AER? Lyle noted that his MiniE he is getting only 70 miles of the stated 100 miles. Although the Volt says 40 is that under optimal condition. Are we really looking at 35 or 30 true electric?
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August 7th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Interestingly I have a question.
I thought GM has a 10yr/100,000 mile warranty because of legal requirements..why don’t the BEV’s we see talked about here..
I am curious as I really do not know the answer.
Mitch
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:00 am
My preference for the Volt Erev over the Nissan BEV is the same as my preference for the EREV concept over the BEV concept.
Until BEVs are capable of providing 2-300 miles range with 5 min recharge I will remain a EREV proponent.
The specific concern I have regarding the Nissan is the almost cavalier attitude they seem to have to battery maintenance and management. I suspect it will have the same acceptance the Chinese BEV FD3M has had and the same problems as well because of the lack of management of the battery.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:04 am
The (latest) funds released will buy 5000 Nissons and fewer than 1000 Gm and Ford’s. 12.500 level 2 charging stations (240 V) will be installed in the States of Washington, Oregon, Calif, Arizona, and Tennessee(?). I can understand the left coast, but why Tennessee?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:15 am
The Smart seems to sell well. But I do agree mainland Europeans drive very fast on the highways (between radar traps). Last time I was there, our driver was doing 180kmh, it was snowing outside and people were still overtaking us! but we were also overtaking many others too. If 160kmh is sustainable, then this will still sell quite well in Europe.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Since neither of these vehicles are as yet available, its pointless to compare them.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:19 am
I guess the maker of the gas guzzling Armada decided to turn over an new leaf and make a BEV.
It is my beleaf that the batteries will be compromised by hot and cold temps, deep discharge, and aux loads (like on 105 F days in Texas). It will be interesting to see what their leaflet claims.
I’m sure it’s a releaf to see competition in this market segment, but personally my beleaf is that the Volt will leave the Leaf in the dust.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:21 am
I don’t think this is a Mac vs PC site. There is plenty of criticism towards both GM and the Volt. We are quite objective and features do matter. It just happens that most people here prefer the generator concept over range which cannot exceed 200 to 300 real miles. If they can get fast recharge and 300 miles, no need to lease the battery (though this is speculative) and all at the same price or better than the Volts (presumably 40k), you’d find many more people picking the leaf. A model S at the Volt price would see the Volt lose its popularity pretty quickly.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:24 am
I love the concept of an all electric being my everyday car but range is the problem.
A Leaf’s city cycle range of 100 miles is great, but I don’t drive in a city, I use freeways where the Leaf probably gets 80 miles or less.
I drive more than 100 miles on the freeway several days a week, so the Volt wins… But if an all electric with a real freeway range over 120 miles were offered, I’d probably switch.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Volt looks like a substancial car while the leaf looks like a city car.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:33 am
If you’re a 2 car family then you normally have 2 needs. You need 1 small commuter car and 1 “family/road trip” car.
In my mind I don’t see the leaf as a small commuter and pure EV kills it as a family/road trip car. So for me it’s the Volt as the “family/road trip” replacement car.
With that being said whenever I need to replace my current small commuter car I want the replacement to be an EV since range is not an issue.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Dan P, I feel your pain! Here in Houston where the muggy air is beyond torture, I had gills put in just to breath the air. Lived in Austin, the, ah,”Friendly City” for nearly 10 years. The, “Keep Austin Weird” crowd will clamor for the Nissan. I agree, the heat issue is there but this crowd does not think too deeply.—> Shallow waters… in many lakes now. So I would assume that there will indeed be Leafs running down The Drag, Congress Ave., Lamar…
(Lived once on the street with a bizzillion Christmas lights) W37th? It is getting all too remote to remember clearly. First writing job, I had a column that I called, Planet Austin in ‘91/92 in Sour Grapes Magazette. Now Planet this Planet that everywhere. LOL! Fell like Cap’tn Jack.
Regards! Higgins & The Lads
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Steve Martin:
I think GM will be extremely happy to have your endorsement of their car.
sidenote/ My family loves your Father of the Bride movies!
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Unfortunately, I have a family of 5 which illuminates the volt for me. Excluding that it only seats 4, I would choose the Volt. At least I will be able to use the Leaf for my commute, city driving.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:40 am
“The specific concern I have regarding the Nissan is the almost cavalier attitude they seem to have to battery maintenance and management. I suspect it will have the same acceptance the Chinese BEV FD3M has had and the same problems as well because of the lack of management of the battery.”
How do you know this?.. perhaps they did a better job than GM did but you wont know about it because they have not been talking about it endlessly for the last 2 years.
Both Nissan and BYD make batteries, so they probably know something about them.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:42 am
If cost of ownership works out to be the similar as Lyle says, the Volt defiantly wins this comparison. The option to be able to put gas into your electric car and drive it as far as you want is the biggest reason. If the Leaf was $15,000 plus battery lease, I would consider it.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Yes, around 30 miles range at average speeds of 65mph. You will get 40 miles at average speeds of 48mph and with the ac off, that is the so called EPA hwy cycle.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Good point. But, what if they just removed the ICE, and kept the battery and environmental design pretty much the same? Maybe it could be a little bigger on a bigger platform, or new battery technology will allow more kWh in the same format. You’d have to decide what to do about warming/cooling the battery without the ICE, but it’s probably doable. I wonder how much cost could be driven out by removing the ICE – not that it would be enough to make a difference for many people, but I’m just curious.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:45 am
I’m lucky in that we have two cars. I could get a BEV for my daily commute – approx 25 miles total – then we can use my wife’s ICE for long commutes (she refuses to even think about new tech for her car). The only time this wouldn’t work is when I take a long trip by myself, which happens once, maybe twice each year.
I don’t know which I would prefer. I want to see more research to demonstrate that driving an electric vehicle (whether pure electric or hybrid) actually produces less pollution when you factor in production and energy production/transmission.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Well said.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:48 am
I wish the Volt’s interior was more attractive, I hate the Mobile Phone in it. And wish there was more wood and leather. If you going to pay for a car that expensive you expect luxury’s. You can get wood as an option on a European Chevrolet (Daewoo) you should be able to get it on a car like the volt at no extra charge.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Thanks that makes sense.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:52 am
I believe that GM will come around on the BEV (and higher-range EREVs), but not for awhile. They’ll have their hands full enough building in the ’sweet spot’ niche that they’ve chosen, for a decade.
Assuming things go as we hope; when they do get around to it, I think their expertise in the Volt will make these vehicles instant successes.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:52 am
The VOLT specification fits my driving requirements just fine.
Who keeps cars 10 years and drives them over 300,000 miles ?
I for one do, our previous GM products required a lot of maintenance to accomplish this. The VOLT with no transmission, regenerative braking, and hopefully high reliability components should eliminate the need to constantly replace brakes, belts, transmissions, water pumps, motor mounts, fuel pumps and sensors.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Suppose the Leaf sells for $25k including the battery?.. we just dont know since Nissan is being coy about the cost, a well equipped compact (Sentra) could mean $15k, and several sources have mentioned $10k for the battery. They are gearing up for a larger first year roll out than GM so perhaps they are counting on mass production savings.. also the pure BEV is a simpler car to build and design. They probably are not including the warranty cost of a second battery in the price either.
Then put in the $7500 tax credit.
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Patience? Fergedaboutit! We’ve had the tech to make electric cars since the early 20th century.
If only we’d kept up on the tech since then…
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Volt wins, no doubt. But I need a 5 seater. I will have to wait for the Orlando(hopefuly!)
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Jackson,
80% coverage is a biggie sized niche, but I know what you mean. If there had never been an EV1 (and the baggage that came with it) GM may have waited decades for the battery tech to evolve to where a straight EV like Teslas would even be considered. JMO,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 8:59 am
For me leasing is the killer. The range is fine on on the Nissan, but if I have to have monthly car payments no deal.
By the way running out of electricity in the batteries is not a call the tow truck event usually have plenty of warning and you have lots of alternatives. Not the least of which is stopping at someone’s house and asking if you can plug in for a lot of I’ve never had anyone say no go I haven’t had to do it very often.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:01 am
I think Nissan is going overboard with the “helping the environment” thing by naming the car “Leaf”. Nissan should know that the benefits to the environment are only ONE reason why people will buy cars like the Volt. Besides, I can’t really visualize telling people at a party that I drive a “Leaf”. I don’t mind having a green car, but naming the car a Leaf? That’s overkill. I don’t want to be THAT much of a green car guy. Just having a lightning bolt or the word “electric” on the exterior should be enough. Rename this Leaf car something else.
There will be plenty of people who will buy electric cars like the Volt because they want to help America become independent from Middle East oil and helping the fatcat oil sheiks get even more disgustingly rich than they already are. These same oil sheiks might be helping to fund terrorist groups, trying to build nukes, and who knows what else.
T. Boone Pickens was right that America is stupid to be importing over $700 billion of oil every year. It would be MUCH better for America and our job market to have that same $700 billion used to create ELECTRICAL energy for cars. Plenty of American jobs will come from that. Homegrown electrical energy is much better for America than getting polluting gasoline energy from Middle East fat cat oil sheiks. Electric powertrains are just more efficient than mechanical internal combustion powertrains. Pennies per mile for your energy when you drive using electricity.
Let’s face it, the electric cars themselves will be very nice by themselves. There will be plenty of people who will like that instantaneous torque, the smooth, transmission-free acceleration, etc. Others will like the absence of noxious tailpipe pollution and less NOISE pollution. People have been buying luxury cars for decades because they want a car that is “library quiet” instead of one that sounds like a Harley half the time.
There’s lots of reasons to “go electric” besides just the environmental benefits. When I get my Volt, I’ll tell people about the benefits of “going electric” instead of just the “going green” stuff.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:01 am
I agree it is a stupid argument. I keep a car 10 years or more, with a lot more miles. This moron is catering to the ‘three-years-and-out’ crowd, a disposable car if you will.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Brent,
You mean the tech that moved a small tin can around dirt roads – before freeways? I see it as the tech developing to BEGIN to met the demands modern living now make. The glass is always at least half full!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:09 am
frankyB
I take it you weren’t here when the showed the difference between the concept volt and the production volt. LOTS of wailing and gnashing of teeth. It wasn’t pretty (I’m referring to the discussion there (g)).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Jeff,
Personally I think price is a huge issue, but the Mb>limitation is range (the Volt HAS no range limit as long as there’s a gas station within a few hundred miles.
JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:17 am
BillR,
Come on, Bill. Leaf them alone. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:17 am
I was actually, that doesn’t change the fact that the Volt has a large fan base here (I’m one of them), this type of survey will always generate the same results.
And to answer to Xiaowei1, that was not the comment I made, if this is what you read from it.. may be that’s what you see.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:17 am
Difficult to compare concepts as they change before delivery.
The Volt is in pre-production and is still being tweaked. The Leaf doesn’t have anything real to show us yet other than test mules that look like refrigerators on wheels.
Let’s see what Car & Driver and other auto magazines and e-zines have to say when these cars are actually shipping.
I was born in Missouri. Ya gotta show me!
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:19 am
It all depends on the overall offer… if all EREV-BEV are in the same range, that’s means that’s pretty much what you will have to pay to go green and off Oil. And so far, there isn’t much offer from larger car builders that is under that price.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Polls can always be interpreted in different ways.
There are always factors that make you say, “well it depends on…”
Let’s do the poll again:
Which do you prefer…
Based on Price? >
Based soley on AER? >
Based on a 20 mile commute? >
Based on a 50 mile commute? >
If you’re 18 to 29 years old? >
If you’re 30 to 49 years old? >
If you’re 50 or older? >
If it were the 2nd, 3rd (or ONLY) vehicle in the family? >
If the financing payment were $400 – $600 – $800 per month? >
If you had to Lease the battery pack? >
You get the idea…
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Yep, that’s the tech. However, the ICE was in the same shape as the electric at the time. Imagine where it would be if we had kept up on it as we had pursued the ICE!
The cup is not even 1/4 full, and it won’t be – even the introduction of the Volt won’t make much of a difference. The cup will start to fill once either a hybrid electric/ICE (like the Volt, not the hybrid ICE/electrics on the roads today) or a BEV is available at a price and with enough availability that the common citizen can get one.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Actually more like asking Boston Red Sox fans if they like the Red Sox or the Yankees!
Seems to me though to be a false choice. Because of range restrictions only the Volt will work for an “only” car. IOW for EVs it’s the only car I can see replacing a Cobalt or a Corolla in a family that only owns one car. Given that the LEAF’s range will be well under a hundred miles, I also see the Volt as the only possibility for someone with more than one car available who has a longer commute they intend to use the EV for. So while either car may be direct competitors if you have a very short commute which allows either to work, in most cases this won’t be the case.
More importantly, if you have several cars, say three cars for only two drivers or for two primary drivers, then the cars can be complementary. Use the LEAF for your local trips, the Volt for the longer EV trips, and the larger ICE car for road trips. Europeans have long used different vehicles for different purposes, and NA is moving in the same direction. So I can see someone having both a LEAF and a Volt.
What seems clear though is that the Toyota Prius has one more year as the reigning “Green Queen”.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:29 am
The volt is not the best environmental concept. It was primarily conceived to alleviate the classic electric vehicle range anxiety argument. The volt is going to be produced by a company that has a 100 year history of building internal combustion engines, they don’t know how to sell anything else. The volt sounds like it was designed by Chevron a company that would hate to have a 100% electric car on the road.
With a 100 MPC EV I could sell my gas burner and live oil free. For the one trip a year where my destination is 325 miles away, I can take all that money I didn’t pay OPEC and rent a Prius and still have a fatter wallet.
GM can do a lot better than 40 MPC. The 1999 EV1 had an EPA rating of 140 MPC on “inferior” NiMH batteries. GM had its chance to be the world leader in EV’s. They crushed it because the lawyers said it was a good idea. Destroying electric cars certainly wasn’t good for America. It was a bad idea all the way around.
As for me the LEAF has a better body style. I need cargo capacity not just passenger capacity. And the LEAF is going to be cheaper than the VOLT in the long run. I’m not paying terrorist nations to try and kill me and my friends.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:38 am
>> What ever happened to the guys that styled the handsome Altima?!?
Maybe they got lost on the way to the wind tunnel? :-O
Seriously though, I have no idea of the Altima’s drag ratings, I’m just in a scrappy mood this morning
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:39 am
I had to vote for Volt, but being a Chevrolet service manager may have influenced that vote just a little????
Tom
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Of course price is the #1 determination before all other things are considered. If you can’t afford something you can’t afford it, so all other arguments are irrelevant.
I have read that the Leaf should be in the lower $20k range so we shall see. Even at $30k, the Leaf is 25% less than the Volt and affordable to millions more people that the $40k+ Volt. That could be the difference between a hit, and a footnote in car history.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:43 am
So where are you? I’m in San Diego so the LEAF will definitely be available before the Volt. But I didn’t think you were in one of the LEAF roll out cities/areas.
Generally speaking the production numbers seem to favor the LEAF everywhere. GM is planning for 12,000 by 2012. Nissan is looking for more like 50,000 by that time. After that it looks like GM is thinking along the lines of 60,000/year whereas Nissan is thinking more like 150,000/year. I do wonder, however, about the LEAF in cold weather areas. That battery might be problematic.
You have to hand it to Nissan. It’s going all in. GM is doing more of a tippy toe approach. The advantage for GM is that it can cut its losses more quickly. The advantage for Nissan is that the larger numbers can drive costs down.
I’d like to see GM increase the production numbers and accelerate Gen II. It looks to be a great car and it would be a shame if it were eclipsed. Though in the longer run some competition should benefit both consumers and the larger goal of moving to a different energy platform than petroleum.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:44 am
It is less for a family wanting to replace a Cobalt or a Corolla than one wanting to replace a 3 series or A4.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:45 am
“How long to people keep cars?, who keeps a car 10 years or 150,000 miles?
Good question. Lets have a poll to answer this one. If you currently have or in the past have owned a car where the odometer showed >150000, please click thumbs up (positive response). If not, click thumbs down (negative). That will tell us if its somewhere above or below 50%. It kinda sucks but is the best option for a quck strawman poll other than what Lyle can do…
/I clicked positive – my current everyday car is a 1996 Pontiac Sunfire that I bought new and now has 170,000+ miles on it.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Run it through Lyle and he probably can get it to the right people. Lyle has amazing access to these guys. If your idea is a great one, I hope you get some sort of credit for it. Good Luck!
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Tag:
Tennessee is NissanLand. There largest factory is located in Smyrna (Spelling?), and their headquarters I think is somewhere near Nashville. That’s my best guess.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:57 am
There are many studies demonstrating this. Not sure why you think it’s not established. Questions about the “green” value of EVs is a talk radio/Fox News thing, very similar to the “Birther” movement. Some wing nut gets on one of the shows and makes something up, then it gets repeated by other shows, and suddenly something which is obviously loony becomes “a legitimate question” over which people can “hold different opinions.” This entire process has been summed up as: “Is the World flat? We report. You decide!”
Moreover, in reality the published studies greatly overstate the pollution generated by an EV. If you charge your EV at night, you’re using electricity which otherwise would go to ground — IOW wasted. Since the pollution generated by this electricity will be created whether you charge your EV or not, from an economic standpoint that pollution can’t actually be ascribed to the EV. The pollution doesn’t vary with the EV charging so that charging is not “variable” pollution, just as the cost of generating that electricity is not a “variable” cost for the utility. The studies that have looked at the pollution attributable to EVs haven’t really taken this approach. They’ve assumed that the electricity consumed by the EV is in fact incremental and would not have been produced otherwise.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:58 am
“You have to hand it to Nissan. It’s going all in. GM is doing more of a tippy toe approach. The advantage for GM is that it can cut its losses more quickly. The advantage for Nissan is that the larger numbers can drive costs down.”
It can drive cost down quickly, and thus lowering the cost further.. Nissan may be getting ready to out-GM GM in automotive mass production, at the dawn of the BEV age.
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Schmeltz,
Nisson must have a great lobby.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 9:59 am
For me, the choice is simple.
Volt is made by GM, an American company.
The LEAF isn’t. And it’s ugly. Bingo.
I will only own the Volt.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:01 am
The name still kills me….
Ladies and gentlemen, Nissan is proud to announce the vehicle that will change not only the industry but the world. Our paradigm changing, zero emission, (drum roll please)…………………….
NISSAN LEAF!!!
Next year we will have two more wonderful EV’s to follow……
The Nissan Mushroom and Nissan Oregano, and we won’t stop until every food seasoning is accounted for!
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Yes Nissan Regie is going all in… . Into Bankruptcy reorganization. They almost didn’t make it through the last recession. I am waiting for that shoe to drop, when even mighty Toyota is losing more money than GM or Ford ever did.
Nissan is a technological laggard, in electric drive. The Leaf is a pathetic BEV offering, no different, nor any more advanced, than any of the hundreds of designs going back a hundred years. Its a “City car” for for a World where cities have no place to recharge. Its also a “B” segment car and even smaller than the Honda hybrid that was launched amid tremendous fanfare, and is now dying in the marketplace when actually confronted by the Prius,
This might be the platform for a “Better Place” battery-swapping routine that will fail in any place that is not a small island, unto itself.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Isn’t there already a Cinnamon? Er, no, wait, that’s a Cimmeron.
Never mind (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:07 am
First of all, you have to think it was Lutz. Friggin Bob Lutz. And of course you also have to think of John Laukner. And many more people inside GM who fought to get the program approved, most of whom we’ve probably never heard of. In an organization like GM getting a new program like this established takes a lot of effort unless you have someone at the top with vision. (Not to be overly critical but Wagoner, for all his good qualities, did not have vision and riverboat gambler mentality that Goshen seems to have).
And of course in part this site, which helped those champions by holding GM’s feet to the fire when it would have been easy for it to take its feet out. So hats off to Lyle as well (and to posters like yourself Tag).
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Is it positive or negative?
ROTFLOL. Only an optimist would ask this question!
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:11 am
There are quite a few people here who have expressed a preference for BEVs. So, I’m actually surprised that the LEAF isn’t doing any better than it is.
Personally, I think the LEAF is strikingly ugly. Hopefully, it looks better in real life. And that’s going to hurt sales. I know some people think the Prius is ugly and that hasn’t hurt sales. But, IMHO, there’s no comparison. But then again, I think the Prius is attractive, so maybe I’m not a good judge.
But aside from all that–100 miles range (with probably 70 miles real world) is much too short for me even if I’m just using it as a commuting car. Even if my commute winds up being 20 miles each way, I’d be much too nervous dealing with that kind of limited range. And I want to be able to stop along the way, and do errands without going home and plugging in first. Plus keep extra charge on the battery at all times as a buffer.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:13 am
I’ll be very surprised if GM does not have a high-speed surprise for it’s German friends, sometime during the next decade.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:13 am
DonC
Well put and thanks for the complement! I owe it all to statik (lol) without him as a foil, I feel like one hand clapping.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Didn’t Lyle just post above that it was going to be 5,000 LEAFs vs. 10,000 Volts year one?? It sounds like there will better availability for Volts than there will be LEAFs. I don’t know about Nissan “going all in”, remember GM went “all in” about a decade ago. The car didn’t work out, so it was canceled. Not the end of the company. (Don’t anybody even dream of saying the EV-1 would have saved GM. That will only make you look silly.)
Bottom line is, Nissan is banking that people are willing to pay around $30k for a mission specific electric commuter car that requires you to lease the battery. GM is banking that people are willing to pay $40k for an electric car that is not so mission specific.
I’ll go for the car that is made in America, allows me to go where ever I want just like the car I have now, Looks like a car not a Catfish and comes fully prepared with a Plan B installed.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:14 am
The CARB regulations only require PHEVs to be sold with the battery warranty. There are no similar requirements for a BEV. The Volt has an ICE/genset so it’s technically a PHEV. The LEAF is obviously a BEV. Hence GM has to warranty the Volt battery but Nissan doesn’t have to warranty the LEAF battery (for 10/150).
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:16 am
This is really a LEAF program and the LEAFs will be built in Tennessee (Smyrna). So Nissan will get some local support for the charging infrastructure there.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Dissing the Ten Year Warranty from GM is one thing, but that is based on meeting a government regulation. If you don’t meet the regulation, you can’t sell it.
The Leaf may not even be available for sale in the US if it doesn’t carry that much of a Warranty… And they don’t even appear to know that. A Century late and Tens of $k dollars too much… Sounds like whistling by the Graveyard for a technological laggard in electric drive.
A shame too, as I have owned Nissans in my past.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:18 am
The LEAF will be cheaper and, more importantly, available in more numbers. So for the first couple of years you have to believe that LEAFs will outsell Volts.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Hey, “It could happen!” (lol). Only a pessimist (or worse a realist) would miss the positive spin. My motto is “when in doubt, see the positive, When you’re certain, try HARDER to see the positive”
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:22 am
The Volt is a much more versatile car than the Leaf, and ofcourse my #1 choice. I applaud the Leaf & Nissan for pushing NEV’s closer to true cars ppl can drive everyday. Keep up the good work. However, I don’t really care how many Nissan says they are going to sell, until they are sold, that # is meaningless. Right now, I dont see a huge market for 100mile range (if you’re lucky) BEV’s. Especially ones that don’t have thermal management, and basically can’t be used in winter for 1/2 the country. Keep working at it though, and as battery tech evolves, we will get there.
Lyle, after putting 2000 miles now on the Mini, i’d like to hear your perspective (again). Could you live with that car for the rest of your life, as your only car? Will you be driving it this winter?
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Makes sense. It always comes back to $ (or votes). Sigh.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:22 am
if both of those cars are scaled correctly in that picture than the volt is definitely the choice for me. It looks like a car, not a little wind up toy.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:22 am
By the way, they’re extending cash for clunkers. The senate just confirmed the extra $2 billion approved by the house.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/business/07clunker.html?hp
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
+1 i keep my cars, currently driving a 1998.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
I understand the point and agree that on a price basis you’re looking more at a BMW 3 Series than a Corolla. But I’d also guess that a family that can afford a BMW 3 Series probably has more than one car so it would have more flexibility — it could have two cars, one for shorter hops and one for longer hops. It’s the family/person who only has one car that will need a Volt if they want an EV.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:29 am
DonC,
The fact that the govt is buying them 5 to 1 over others kinda helps too. 5000 would be half of the Volt’s initial run.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Only if people actually buy them.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Pretty expensive for a self-propelled Kleenex, at that.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:34 am
I’d like to vote for the Leaf with Capn Jack Sparrows ICE wagon available.
PS the Leaf is so ugly it might make me look a little better,
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Are you still “wild and crazy?”
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:36 am
I find it interesting that the areas they’re targetting for the roll-out don’t have either a) a Tesla dealership (except for Seattle), or b)are considered likely rollout places for the Volt based on GM’s general comments. In fact, other than Seattle, they haven’t included any of the places Tesla listed for potential dealerships: Miami, Denver, or Atlanta.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog3/?p=58
So Nissan is, IMHO, mostly targeting places where they’ll be the only game in town. That doesn’t spell “cheap” to me. At least not in the beginning.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Later versions of the Volt are projected to have a smaller battery (due to expected improvements in the cells) which will allow opening up the rear seating for three.
Most likely, you are going to have to wait for volumes to ramp up, and costs to drop anyway; so stay tuned.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Limited Range is the deal breaker for me too.
Today i’m driving to the UP of Michigan or about 500miles one way. Last weekend i drove to Detroit, or about 200 miles round trip.
Before that was Pittsbugh. Next weekend is Louisville.
I don’t want to rent a car every weekend. Or even have to worry about range when driving around during the week, or worrying about where I can find a plug.
I’m patient though, and confident in the progress of technology so that in my life, I will be driving a BEV at some point.
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Or, a later Volt
(see my reply to Larry Morris, #30 above)
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:44 am
I think this tells us a lot about Nissan’s true motives where the engineering itself is concerned. They’re looking for a halo car to help their sagging sales / possible bankruptcy proceedings. I wouldn’t look for a positive outcome for the Leaf, moving forward (I meant to do that).
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August 7th, 2009 at 10:47 am
I admire GM for developing the Volt…hopefully producing it in mass quantities. I would say the same for the Nissan and LEAF. However, I wonder (like others) if these cars will become Edsels of this generation.
Does GM, Nissan, (and the general public) have the willpower to get and keep these type vehicles in production?
Yet another Prius comparison…Toyota somewhat quietly released the Prius into the US. And their advertising seems small compared to the Volt which you can not even buy yet. Will GM stand behind their VoltTec tech like Toyota has with HSD for years to come? GM is calling EREV/VoltTec leapfrog tech…maybe…but for how long?
Other poll questions…
How long will GM produce VoltTec vehicles?
less than 5 years
5 – 10 years
greater than 10 years
How long much longer will Toyota produce HSD vehicles (10+ years already)?
less than 5 years
5 – 10 years
greater than 10 years
I predict that hybrids will become accepted as a new powertrain type on a large scale if the new CAFE laws become reality. Then EREV to follow but not for many years…unless laws get really tough or a breakthrough in electrical energy storage occurs. So can 2 Mode and BAS compete with HSD (Toyota, Ford, Nissan)?
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:01 am
I watch fox news and CNN (mostly internet news but I’ll flip to them every so often). I don’t recall them ever saying EV’s do more damage than good. In fact I just saw a report this morning on ECO-Tricity (I think that was it) that I though was a pretty good one. I also fell in love with the Zero-X electric dirtbike from a fox news video with Neil Seiki (my first choice BEV if my wife would let me). I haven’t seen it but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the pundits bad mouthed EV’s, but again I’ve never seen it.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:01 am
I always see tons of Smart Cars in Europe. Those can’t even go 100mph. I also see lots of scooters. Maybe you are just thinking of driving on Germany’s Autobahn?
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Lyle’s comparison is about as impartial as a Fox news story!
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:05 am
250miles @70mph in Michigan winters with a $40k or less price and i’m sold on a BEV.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:07 am
The advantage the Leaf has over the Volt is sticker price. And some may prefer the circular cutouts on the wheels. I think they look good.
How many times will a Leaf owner come back from a short drive and discover a need to drive across town? A new Leaf will sit next to the house with insufficient battery energy to go anywhere. Yes, I know, there is always the Metropolitan Bus line.
Range anxiety: I have experienced this first hand in a GEM. And Lyle has his experience documented on his Tesla Roadster test drive. There is a moment where your math brain kicks in and the relaxed electric drive feeling switches to energy conservation mode. In lay mans terms, it really sucks. One can argue that the anxiety is worth never having to add to their local air pollution. But why … when the Volt and Orlando are available?
Yes Orlando. NGMCO will offer an Orlando style EREV to compliment the lower riding Volt.
=D~
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:07 am
I voted for the Volt.
I aint leasing JACKSH|T!
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Isn’t LEAF an acronym? Someone help me out here, does anyone remember what it was?
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:10 am
“I predict that hybrids will become accepted as a new powertrain type on a large scale if the new CAFE laws become reality. Then EREV to follow but not for many years…unless laws get really tough or a breakthrough in electrical energy storage occurs. So can 2 Mode and BAS compete with HSD (Toyota, Ford, Nissan)?”
BAS+ can compete but not 2-Mode, no way!…
GM’s 2-Mode electric transmission has 5 clutches, this will be a repair and maintenance nightmare.. the Toyota HSD system is also expensive to repair but at least it is much simpler (no clutches at all) and has proven bulletproof during the last 10 years.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am
+1 here bro. I have a 97 Saturn SL2 I drive every day for commute and a 2002 Exploerer I H8 and both are over 150K miles, due to ling vacation drives.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:12 am
DonC, will the Leaf actually be less expensive after purchase plus leasing fees for the battery?
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Range anxiety: I have experienced this first hand in a GEM.
Your GEM doesn’t use Lithium Ion batteries of the same weight of the LA (lead acid) cells. If you swap them out with LiFePO4 cells of equavalent weight, you will more than double your range. I know, I’ve done it before on someone elses “Golf Cart”.
It was a “Pimp my golf cart” kind of thang.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Thanks for the info Laura.
I was going to clunk my 2002 Explorer yesterday but I just couldn’t seem to get myself to do it. I just h8 the thought of having a car payment.
Iknow, cheap bastard.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Brent, the answer to the problem of reducing polution is the move to green energy. The United States of America is now the world leader in electric production by wind power and more and more communities are finding that they can efficiently produce electricity by wind turbines. I plan on producting my own electricity by installing solar arrays. The savings realized through owning an EV will offset the costs of installation of the solar arrays. With the technological developments in solar and wind power that are occurring now, the cost of changing to green energy will pay for itself in short order. To continue using petrol for energy will lead us to another depression with countries like China and India rapidly developing their economies and therefore raising the demand for petroleum. With peak production having already past (2008), the cost will be untenable. Our only real choice is to move as rapidly as possible to green energy and IMO, owning my own solar production makes perfect financial sense.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Nissan is going to have the 5000 demo LEAFs on the road by the end of 2010. Other than 500 demo units, Volts won’t actually be available until 2011. By 2012 GM (Henderson) has said they’d like 12,000 Volts on the road. By 2012 Nissan expects to have 50,000 + 5,000 demo units on the road.
I don’t think GM went “all in” with the EV1 at all. The car was only ever available in two states, CA and AZ. Plus the quantities were very limited. I’m not criticizing that, just saying it wasn’t the type of bet Nissan is placing.
As for price, my guess would be that a LEAF will be $37.5Kish and Volts will be $43Kish.
Keep in mind that the LEAFs will be built in Tennessee so they will also be “American Made”.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Let’s not forget ABC, NBC, and CBS which we all know are completely unbiased.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:22 am
LEAF, Aztek what’s the diff…..
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:24 am
You don’t plan production with that kind of scale if all you’re interested in is a halo vehicle. Nissan is expecting this to really take off.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:32 am
CaptJ.. If you swap them out …
I understand what you are saying. My point is that the Leaf will get 100 miles range (maximum). The GEM maybe 20 miles range. Regardless if you run low on battery at 85 miles (Leaf), or at 18 miles (GEM). The “what have I gotten myself into feeling” carries equal weight.
When the Nissan Leaf was first announced I gave Nissan credit for getting in the game. Numerous people posted comments regarding looks, range, size, and price. It was evident that “just 100 miles” wasn’t worth the stress to most.
=D~
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Come to think of it you’re right. Considering GM is only putting out 500 for their RC1 release and Nissan is going to spit out 5000 for their RC1 release, I too think it’s more than a halo hooptie. I think they’re pretty serious. Also, I bet the batt pack is going to be very similar to the better place batt pack they are using in their Versa EV there.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:32 am
[Warning... brief rant coming...]
You know Dan, you reminded me of my initial, irritated reaction at reading that quote:
>> Mark Perry director of product planning at Nissan
>> [...snip...] “who keeps a car 10 years or 150,000 miles?”
IMO, that’s just outrageous! Even if the *original* owner doesn’t keep it that long, most cars have a string of owners. Look around you — 15, 20, even much older cars are rollin’ every day. Sure, they may not all be gorgeous (rust, dents, etc.) but they still serve their basic function. They may be all their owners can afford; without them, those people are on the bus, bummin’ rides, or just plain immobilized. And MOST of those people are not the original owners of their cars!!
I’m sick of our “disposable society” mentality, and I think Perry’s comment is the pinnacle of such foolishness. It’s as if he’s saying “might as well assume our product will be a heap of useless junk after only seven or eight years… But no problem, we’ll sell you another one!”
Just crazy.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:33 am
I have absolutley no range anxiety. In my daily commute I drive the same 18 mile round trip loop that I have for 15 years. That is what I will use a BEV for, as well as local trips to the stores I go to, all within a 10 mile range.
There are a lot of people that range anxiety is a non issue and a BEV will work perfectly to drive gas free.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Yes, the Volt looks better than the leaf. It also sounds better but that is not going to secure a spot for GM on the worlds smartest Electric Car Manufacture. You can’t compare prices of a vehicle with battery lease packages especially if the consumer has to come up with $10,000 more.
How about GM reduce the cost of the Volt and if it takes leasing the Battery Package to stay competitive, then do it. I think leasing the battery with the possibility of an upgrade as technology is improved is a great idea. Better than selling the vehicle as a complete package with the consumer needing to upgrade at a much higher cost and besides, how long is the warranty going to be on the Battery Package?
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Agree – personal driving needs / patterns require the Volt’s range in my case.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Clicked thumbs ups any way I have a 2000 Buick with 80K I plan to keep it running until a VOLTEC-based Buick roadster or sedan arrives. (Hoping for a roadster)
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am
I see some biase towards Volt here. That’s OK, no problem with that. The problem is that the question posed is wrong. Preference of one car over the other will have nothing to do with the car itself but rather it’s use. If user has only one car than Volt wins easily. But if the user has more than one car and only one of those cars is used for daily commuting to work than Leaf is the better choice for such commuting, or I should say more practical car. In other words, teh car that suites your needs better is the beter car.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Wow. after 2 hours, its back to nuetral, with at least 3 known positives (and 3 implied negatives). Keep the votes coming.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Not only that, but it’s still useful, right? Shame to crush anything only 7 or 8 years old, that’s still got some life left in it.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Productions plans, like the specs, are subject to change.
We ourselves frequently speculate on whether or not the announced Volt volume numbers will actually turn out to be lower (or higher) than actual production.
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August 7th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Lyle : new posts are missing twitter update
.
Leaf is expected only $20000 not $30000 , With battery its expected to be 30k but that is ofsetted by 10k rebate. so final price on hands may be leaf : 20k and volt : 32500 .In this case i think leaf has an advantage.
On performance : Volt will have advantage but remember toyota does not offer any fun to drive cars and still sells as no:1 auto maker of world. so more people may buy Leaf as the range extender part of volt is unknown : no mpg numbers , no performance numbers etc.
Second volt is more for office going crowd – who travel only 40 miles a day , not a sales person etc – leaf is also addressing the same. – they don’t care on much fun to drive factor and most are believers of imports. Volt will have to break the belief.
Things are getting tough
.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
I’m biased against any lease. It’s either all or nothing.
Now if the LEAF was for a FULL purchase, no lease, I would buy the LEAF. It will replace my 97 Saturn SL2 as the commuter.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I personally think Nissan has the best styling in the industry at the very least they are the ones being copied. So the Leaf has nice lines a cross between a Porsche and VW Beetle.
As far as the technology no I would not by a battery only car and I am tired of all the 4 door cars. Take a walk in the parking lot and look at all the crappy designs people drive to work. Not looking at the name plate you would be hard pressed to figure out who made the car. I dont see one I would really want to own.
I am still waiting on GM to come out with a commuter/sports diesel or electric motor design. Where I can get the style I like and drive it to work and back getting fantastic mileage 45+MPG and switch to 0-60 around town driving on the weekends.
why cant we have a 50 MPG sports car?
With an upgrade plan to purchase software/hardware updates to improve performance say a year or two after the sale when the technology improves?
It could be just a matter of snapping a module on the electric motors and a software update in the future…
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
The LEAF would work fine for me as long as there is no LEASE of any type to own the vehicle. If so then sell me the LEAF w/o the batt pack and I’ll build my own.
But I understand what your saying. A “Real” 75 mile range will more than suffice for me. My route to work has my kids schools in the path. My wife works within 15 miles of me. If an emergency were to happen, I will always be in range. Also, we have charge sockets at my building and our other building. I just may fall in a small percentage of one of the lucky ones.
Now if only a GEM was allowed on faster city streets….
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Twitter is under a denial-of-service hack attack for the second day in a row.
http://status.twitter.com/post/157191978/ongoing-denial-of-service-attack
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
This poll is like choosing between porterhouse steak and Nissin Cup-O-Noodles, where both are the same cost, and where there may not be either steak knives or hot water at my location for some time to come.
Nissin? Maybe I should say Nissan! Perhaps they should rename LEAF the “Cup-O-Noodles.”
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
If range anxiety isn’t an issue for you, I would think you would forego the weight and expense of the genset. Therefore, the Volt was NEVER for you. But to argue about fuel savings when your longest trip a year is 325 miles makes no sense. With either the Volt or the LEAF + Prius, you’d have just paid OPEC a less than twenty bucks for that long trip.
The better argument would have been the total cost of the LEAF + Prius solution compared to the Volt-only solution. The answer would be how often per year you exceed the operating radius of your vehicle. With the Volt at 20 miles and your LEAF at 50 the problem becomes destination recharge or refuel. If you NEVER go more than 50 miles from your home outlet in a day the hopefully cheaper LEAF is an easy choice. But after 50 you need to look for recharge opportunities since you won’t make it home.
If you go more than 50 in the Volt you are almost certainly beginning to burn some gasoline. If you dislike that idea the option is the same, looking for those recharge opportunities ten miles sooner.
The more chargers that get installed near your most distant local destinations the easier you will feel about either vehicle if you can’t bring yourself to use gas. Just because the Volt can use gas doesn’t mean you have to. I totally understand leaving the ICE behind if you never have to use it though.
For your needs the Volt is 100% electric. But I’m totally behind you dismissing it based on looks alone, even though I think the LEAF is fugly.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
LEAF:
Limited range. High price. limited internal volume. Foreign manufacture. Availability = 0 (at this moment).
Aztec:
High range. Low (used vehicle) price. Cavernous internal volume. Domestic manufacture. Availability = substantial (but dropping as time moves on).
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Put the same electric powertrain but slightly beefed up in a 2010 Maxima body, and you’d have a winner, without the expense of designing a full new car inside and out.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Nah.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Technically after a tranny rebuild of $3000.00 it’s still good. The catch is we need the same type of vehicle 4WD something and those only qual for $3000.00. It would’ve been a wash. So I might keep it and get the tranny rebuilt. This is our long range vacation car.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Thanks Don.
Does anyone know the requirements for a BEV? should be an indication of the expected life, and will apply in a lease application?
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Between us, the Leaf looks like what a frog would turn into in a Transformers movie.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
“But I’d also guess that a family”
I think your focusing on the wrong statement.
I think its more “Cars per Household” type of deal. I say that because the average size of a US household is around 2.5 people. A large percentage of households are 2 people or less… And I find it difficult to concieve of households of 2 or less have more than 2 cars or have space/income/time for a pure commuter car.
IE, out of the 200 million + register cars in the United States, I would think significantly less than 50 million could be replaced by the Leaf. I mean, it has to be a situation where a ~30,000 dollar car is acceptable to only be used as a commuter car….. so they have to be rich, and need multiple cars, and be “green” (IE the Leaf will likely be a premium over a Corolla unless people drive -Alot-)
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
I would buy the Nissan “Leaf” as it would be perfect for my needs at half the range.
If I wanted to go beyond its range often then I would buy a Honda generator and run the 220 Volt line to the charger and double or triple the range.
If I found that heating the car from the battery used up too much power I would leave the “Honda” generator in for the winter too.
I guess that makes it a EREV Leaf doesn’t it.
I should add I like the overall looks , but the front end could be somewhat better looking as something just doesn’t look quite right from my perspective.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Leashed to Environmental Anchor For life?
Let’s Everyone All Forget there is a world beyond 50 miles from home?
Local Electric Alcohol (& grocery) Fetcher?
Leaving Environmental, Affluent Families stranded
Several sources insist it means: Leading, Environmentally Friendly, Affordable but that would be LEFA wouldn’t it?
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I love that GM is finally doing something innovative and I hope that the Volt does everything advertised incredibly well and becomes a platform for GM’s reemergence. The day we can go into a GM dealer and buy a car because it is the best all-around choice, not just because it is “American” (my Xterra was made in Tennessee and many “American” cars are made in Mexico or Canada…) will be one of the greatest days in my car-loving lifetime. Given all this, though, you guys need to just stop pulling each other’s collective pud. Both cars have big positives and big negatives. This article exaggerates the negative aspects of the LEAF and embellishes the (often rumored) positives of the Volt. My commute is about 22 miles each way and just about every errand I run can be accomplished by adding less than 20 miles to that number. So, the 100 mile range is perfect for me. I own an Xterra that will be for camping trips, a motorcycle for performance, my wife has a Prius for her daily driver and for our road trips, and I hope to add an all-electric for everything else, including my commute (taking the place of the Xterra). The LEAF is the prefect city driver and that is what I am looking for.
Evaluation from someone who is biased toward an all-electric with a range of greater than 80 miles:
Design: The Volt is unfortunately not even remotely similar to the sweet ride they showed as a concept. Now, it just looks pretty good for a plain family sedan. The LEAF looks like the spawn of a catfish and a Versa and this makes me sad. Advantage: Volt.
Interior: Both are adequate and I am sure will be comfortable and have enough numbers and graphics and gadgets to satisfy anyone that cares. Advantage: Toss-up
Performance: The LEAF will probably outperform the Volt in this category, mostly because the Volt is going to weigh a great deal more due to having both ICE and electric systems and the mechanics and electronics to mate the two systems. Advantage: Toss-up. Neither car is designed for performance. If you want performance, you should buy a motorcycle.
Connectivity: OnStar versus “unknown connection system?” Come on. Both systems will work just fine. Advantage: Toss-up. Would communication protocols really be a factor in your decision?
Range: This is incredibly subjective. If someone wants to use the vehicle for their daily commute and city driving, the added cost and complication of the Volt is a negative. If someone wants to use the LEAF for cross-country road trips, the range is a huge negative. Should a soccer mom justify choosing an SUV with 4WD over a mini-van by saying it can go off-road if she will never go off-road? This depends entirely on what you want. For me, 100 miles of all-electric is more important than 40-mile electric plus range extending capabilities.
Batteries/Warranty: Not announced by Nissan yet, so this is a moot point.
Price: This is where the bias of the article really shined through. Nissan has not announced anything other than that the LEAF will be priced similarly to an ICE C-class sedan. Everything else is speculation. Just as your $40,000 price tag for the Volt is very optimistic, your $30,000 + leased battery is very pessimistic. Nothing has been announced; at least wait for the facts before you crap all over them.
Rollout: The LEAF exists in a form that is nearly production ready. The Volt does not. Nissan has announced 5,000 cars will be sold to individuals in 2010. GM has not announced anything. There is nothing to compare until GM tells us their plans.
Maintenance: Not even those of you that already drank the Volt-flavored Kool-Aid can give this one to the Volt. I do my own ICE maintenance from top to bottom. It’s usually fun, but it is also expensive, time-consuming, and can be a complete pain in the ass. For those that pay someone to do their maintenance (real maintenance, not just oil changes), the cost is astronomical. A pure electric requires a very small fraction of the maintenance that an ICE vehicle has. Advantage: LEAF
Reliability: No ICE in LEAF. Advantage: LEAF
Final analysis: I am a realist. The LEAF will do what it says and nothing more, and will PROBABLY be significantly cheaper than the Volt, based on the added complexity of the Volt. There is no getting around the fact that from an engineering perspective, the Volt is a LEAF, plus a normal ICE car and has all the complexity of both, plus more! You can’t get twice as much out of an engineering problem for the same cost on the first try. Trust me, as an electrical engineer, program management tries to get us to do this every time and there are just limits to what can be done with the trade-offs of cost, schedule, features, and performance. If GM pulls this off, I will be incredibly excited, but I am not holding my breath, because they really blew it when they did not move forward with research they had started with the EV-1. As raw and problematic as that car was, imagine what the Volt would be like if the morons running GM at the time had allowed it to be in development for the last twelve years instead of the last two. Here is to seeing the LEAF and the Volt being wildly successful and ushering in a new era in which we no longer have to buy oil from our enemies to get to work each day!
Fire Away!
Martin B.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
I wonder what the results would be in a Nissan site?
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Oh no you di ent!!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!
OMG ontflmao.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
“As for price, my guess would be that a LEAF will be $37.5Kish and Volts will be $43Kish. ”
Until we know the #1 bonus cost driver, the Battery Warranty and Battery Sale, I think we need to qualify those
Leaf, Battery Lease: ~20,000 or less, IE equivalent to the gasoline car without the engine and gas tank. Hitting a higher number than this is fail in my mind, unless the cost of the Battery lease is offset. Battery Lease on a 24 kWh LG pack would be around 200 a month with restrictions or 250 month for “unlimited miles”.
Leaf, Battery Sale, 5 year warranty: ~35,000 (Based on 24 kWh LG pack)
Leaf, Battery Sale, 10 year warranty: ~45,000
Since Nissan makes thier own packs, maybe they can reduce battery costs by 10-25% fairly easily….
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
I meant in disirable apperance.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
SOo…….
IF (big IF) GM actually sold the Volt as only a BEV, then the requirement of the 10/150K is not required? So if I bought one THEN had GM put the genset in, would they still have to warrant the 10/150K? The genset didn’t come OEM. Jus pokin around on this.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
If it was cheap enough I would buy a LEAF to commute and KEEP my Buick for the road trips it loves so very much.
But holding two insurance policies and a car payment plus renting a garage with outlet in my apartment complex would likely make up the difference.
For my needs the better plan is get a Volt and use the insurance and gas savings on the garage rental.
I can’t make a case either way until I see the price delta. But I anticipate being very grumpy about either monthly payment when it exceeds my current gas use.
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August 7th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
“If you charge your EV at night, you’re using electricity which otherwise would go to ground — IOW wasted.”
Not true. At times of low demand, the *capacity* to generate more power is there, but instead of generating power just to waste it, the plant operates at a fraction of its rated power (and consumes correspondingly less fuel).
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
“I don’t know which I would prefer. I want to see more research to demonstrate that driving an electric vehicle (whether pure electric or hybrid) actually produces less pollution when you factor in production and energy production/transmission.”
A big problem with such studies is where the electricity comes from. And if your consider C02 a pollutant.
If you consider C02 a pollutant, Hybrids and EVs decrease pollution no matter the source of electricity. If your lucky and get electric power from Hydro, Nuclear, or Wind, EVs decrease air pollution to single digit percentages of ICE cars.
Only when you get 100% power from Coal is Hybrid a better option than EV for air pollution.
If you don’t consider C02 a pollutant, the issue is more cloudy. Hybrids and EVs are still likely better than most ICE cars. But if you get 100% Coal power, and C02 is not a concern, a modern low emissions ICE car (year 2008 and after), will be better than an EV. (Check out NOx emissions etc from coal plants)
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Mike, unfortunately that is the case for many. I know of a lot of folks who trade in their cars right after it’s paid off or if the latest and greates comes that they have to have. That’s just society in general. That’s why most are in debt over their ears. They nevver really own their car(s). That bug the shit outta me too. If I took a poll around my place I would say 90% will have traded in a car that they never completely paid for and got the pink. It’s even a highr percentage for the younger 21-30 year olds.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
My industry is prone to layoffs when contracts get awarded to different companies. Though the workforce contains most of the same people we often have to shift to different companies following the awards. I wish I could be certain that I’d be driving to the same place everyday. My current company has moved me to three different office suites in three years and another move is imminent this September. If they or the contract move across town or to a neighboring suburb there goes my very short less than 10 mile commute.
I’d love a BEV anyway since 80% of my driving is stop and go dense city traffic.
I say bring on the BEVs. Someone will buy them.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
It seems to me that none of these technologies will dominate, but none of them are going to go away either (assuming that BEVs and EREVs make it into production). We’ll just have lots of choices, and responsible people will have to get used to analyzing their needs and picking the right tool for the job.
I also think gas prices are going to go up steadily over the long-term, which will provide motivation for people to conserve when they have the opportunity.
My post is a little weak on the justification for my prediction… But that’s a long essay and I’ve gotta get back to work. Plus, there are a lot of implications to cover.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
“We’ve had the tech to make electric cars since the early 20th century.”
Maybe so, but the technoilogy to make *practical* electric cars is new.
Affordable, efficient, and reliable power electronics are a recent technology (i.e., IGBTs in the 1990s). Also, batteries with reasonable energy density (i.e., Lithium Ion in the 1990s) are just as recent.
Maybe if we had been focusing on this problem for the last 100 years, these technologies would now be more advanced.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Agreed. But the financially unsound thinking you’ve described, is a separate problem altogether.
What I was getting at is this: At least those trade-ins you mentioned will wind up owned by a used-car buyer. Mr. Perry makes it sound like their product would be completely used up and ready for the scrap-heap, and that’s “A-OK” because c’mon, “who keeps a car that long anyway.”
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
One last question… What website are you doing the voting on?
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Ummm….
Too long to read bro.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
If you still have an arrow through your head, modern trauma surgeons can clear that right up for you, nowadays!
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Considering you can get replacement 1.5-2.0 L I4 for less than 2,000… can’t imagine the Volt’s engine + Stuff costs more than 4,000 (Large Quanitiy, Pre-Profit, etc)
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
On this one, at the bottom of the article above.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Enjoy the sun!
Here in Seattle, the only way to tell that it’s summer is to look at the calendar. Friggin 60 degrees, overcast and drizzle. No end in sight. I have to put up tarps and heaters for my outdoor party!
But back to the topic: For a car company to tell me that 10 years is a long time will kill the sale every time. My wife’s car is going on 22 years and mine on 15. Sure, we can afford new ones, but we are happy with these.
By the sounds of things, GM is being careful to ensure that my Volt will be just as good to me. Not so for Nissan: deep discharge and no battery management spell trouble IMHO.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
I wouldn’t worry too much about the LEAF battery pack. The Volt will stress out the pack more than the LEAF, both because the Volt will require more charge/discharge cycles and because the C rates will be higher. With respect to the latter, if both the Volt and the LEAF accelerate from 0-40 in x seconds, then the cells in the LEAF pack will experience something like 1/3C the C rate the cells in the Volt will experience (8kWh/24kWh).
PHEV applications are just much harder on the battery than BEV applications.
Also, if you want to go down the warranty or maintenance route, BEVs are much simpler and should therefore require less repair and maintenance. For example, you will have to change the oil on the Volt at some point, not so in the case of the LEAF. I don’t think this will be a big deal in the case of either vehicle though, just like I don’t think the LEAF battery will have to be replaced after 5 years.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Localities compete for jobs by providing tax breaks, infrastructure freebies, and so forth. Sometimes it’s symbiotic, sometimes not. This is the sausage behind what the few competent politicians that exist say on the stump…
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Oh.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
At times of low demand, the *capacity* to generate more power is there, but instead of generating power just to waste it, the plant operates at a fraction of its rated power (and consumes correspondingly less fuel).
That’s simply not true. You can’t turn baseline off — which is why it’s called baseline. Basically you don’t stop the river if it’s hydro and you don’t stop a nuclear plant just because demand is low. If you doubt that, here’s a real time report of the supply and demand for electricity in CA. You can watch this every day of every week. What you’ll see is that there is monstrous amount of wasted electricity. All that extra electricity goes to ground.
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html
You’re talking about generating plants like natural gas which come on line to fulfill peak demand.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
We can’t know how many didn’t buy because the Prius is ugly. We only can know how many like the looks or care nothing whatsoever about them.
I agree that the LEAF is ugly. But with 70 miles real world it would meet most of my in town needs.
But the exceptions are pretty major.
I could make it to the airport to pick up out-of-town guests but might not make it back home on a hot day.
I can’t visit the large regional mall or buy anything there because my monthly finance payment with insurance and garage approaches the level of my rent.
I can’t drive them to Disney or Universal without booking a hotel room for all of us while I wait to charge up.
But I can, at least, commute using no gas, which allows me to keep a job and pay more rent for an apartment close to work and a larger car payment for a car I can never travel in with out a better job to pay for a generator trailer or rental car.
Did I mention the LEAF is ugly too?
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
There is a major feature of vehicle operation that always seems to be taken for granted or ignored when we consider electric cars. That feature is the heater. Heat is often written off as a waste of energy up until now because we are currently using inefficient ICE vehicles that generate far more heat than is required. As soon as you go to a full electric vehicle though you have the opposite problem. You are now forced to find a replacement source of heat to warm the cabin or defog a window for a good part of the year. Coming from Canada this is an especially inportant consideration.
I think one of the stongest and most under-recognized advantages of the voltec approach is the ability to produce extra heat when desirable to do so without draining the battery. Electric heaters are a huge drain on batteries for any electric vehcle that doesn’t have an engine to supply heat. This will make the volt a much more attractive product than the leaf in real world consumer use.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I believe I’ve heard the blond guy on what I think is “Fox & Friends” say it several times, and I’m not exactly a regular Fox viewer. When I click on either Fox or MSNBC my stomach usually begins to reflexively churn, which causes my hand to twitch, changing the channel.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I like the Volt’s attitude.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Oh forgot to mention there isn’t a dealer for either one in round-trip range.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
“Fire Away!”
I would agree the header is biased towards the Volt. But your pretty Bias towards the Leaf. Lets examine some critical points.
“My commute is about 22 miles each way and just about every errand I run can be accomplished by adding less than 20 miles to that number.”
You give the Leaf alot of Bonus points for having the ability to meet this need. Yet all we know of the Leaf is that it has 100 miles on LA4. A gentle driving cycle that likely produces some of the best results for an Electric. If your “44 mile” commute is done at 75 mph, you may find that a Leaf can barely get you there and back again or not leave you with room to do those 20 miles of errands. Until it is know how the Leaf performs on the 2008 EPA cycles, or we have a similar chart to this http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
I think the advantage for Range has to go to the Volt. Only the Volt has said it will do everything your Xterra does currently. The Leaf may or may not.
“Performance: The LEAF will probably outperform the Volt in this category”
Whoa, slow down there. The Volt has around 150% of the motor of a Leaf. This category is clearly a winner for the Volt. Power to Wieght and Torque to Wieght should both favor the Volt.
“Rollout: The LEAF exists in a form that is nearly production ready. The Volt does not. Nissan has announced 5,000 cars will be sold to individuals in 2010.”
From the Leaf we have seen a production intent proto-type. From the Volt we have seen actual integration autos. No where has Nissan said 5,000 Leafs will be sold to individuals in 2010. It is has in “late” 2010, in upto 5 markets, some Leaf’s will be provided for Lease/Sale/Rent/etc. And up to 1,000 will be provided to those 5 markets only before 2012 general production in the United States. I would say its a toss-up. From GM we have a schedule, numbers, and a history of milestones. From Nissan we have flashy promises that rely on other companies. IE, It would be unless to provide the cars before the other company puts in the charging infrastructure. Nissan could have a Mini-E type lease arangement in place in December of 2010 and be fulfilling that press release.
Lastly, Warranty. Until we know what Nissan does, the advantage is clearly the Volt. GM has said repeatly it intends to sell you a battery with a 10 years/150,000 warranty. Nissan is total mystery.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
How about both ?
I’d like Leaf for my daily commute and an ERev for daily commute + long drives.
The main attraction with Leaf for me is that I can be oil free even on weekends – whereas with Volt most of my weekend journeys would involve some oil use.
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
http://mydocs.epri.com/docs/public/000000000001015325.pdf
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
I think so. My guess is about $5K less expensive. Not sure if that’s a big deal given the price of these vehicles to start with. They’ll both be considerably above the average car purchase price.
Personally if both were available I’d opt for the Volt. Just more flexible. I kinda like the faster acceleration in the LEAF though, mostly because it would be fun to surprise people. (Cheap tricks …).
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August 7th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
$30K + battery for Leaf not “very pessimistic”.
What Nissan has said is that the total cost will be similar to a compact car. The initial price of the car will be like a gas can and then, Battery lease + electricity charge <= Gas per month.
Let us take Sentra – Nissan’s compact car in the US. It goes upto $22K. Add in the $7,500 tax rebate and you are at $30K.
I think $30K is a good estimate for Leaf. If you want to be conservative, you’d put it at $25K to $35K.
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August 7th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Good point electroman….
I had wondered if the Voltec system is savy enough to use the heat generated from normal battery drain to warm the cabin. I know this is asking a lot from R&D. GM development has previously mentioned that the leather seats will be heated from within.
“If you can find a job you love doing, you’ll never have to work another day in your life” -Mark Twain
The techs must be having a ball working on the Volt. Huzzah!
=D~
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August 7th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Please step referring to OnStar as a “satellite” system. It uses a ground-based cellular data network (e.g. Verizon), not satellite.
I’m sure GM marketing is happy to let you keep making that mistake (”satellite” has a lot more “gee whiz” power to it), but it’s incorrect.
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August 7th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
I can’t get over how ugly the Leaf is. I have never had that response to a car (or SUV) before. To me, generally, a car is a car. Yes. Some cars are better looking than others, but it wouldn’t affect my buying decisions. (I think the corvette, for example, is gorgeous. So is the Camaro for that matter. And the Mustang. But I would never buy either one.) But this? Is something else. It’s worse than the Aztek. It’s in a league of its own.
But who knows? Maybe people will think it’s so ugly it’s cool? It works for UGG shoes.
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August 7th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Much of the discussion so far concerning LEAF vs Volt is centered on which costs less (either to buy outright, or to use).
This misses the main economic point.
With the exception of a very few people in city centers, a BEV will always be a second (or more likely third) car, due to it’s inherent limitations. Reducing the price of a BEV does not really address this, and increasing it’s range only mildly mitigates it. It’s possible to argue that a ridiculously large range would make a BEV more attractive, but you very quickly come up against the limit of what level of recharging can be supported with standard electrical service. For that matter, how many urban dwellers have their own indoor space next to an outlet?
A Volt could easily be an only car (though at first, I expect it will be a second or third, if only for being priced out of the range of most single-car buyers; but that will change as costs drop).
So, if you’re wealthy enough, you can buy several mission-specific cars, as someone said; but most drivers are not so economically blessed. Which is cheapest? The Volt, if you have to figure the cost of not only the BEV, but an ICE backup car (or conventional hybrid).
The only thing which could really upset this state of affairs is public charging. Regardless of announced plans, this simply isn’t going to be as universally available (for many years) as the plug in your garage, and the gas station down the street.
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August 7th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
I honestly am hoping both the Volt and the LEAF are wild successes and the technology and success of battery-based vehicles accelerates to the point that everyone will be excited to buy an all-electric BEV. No matter what, I look forward to getting more concrete numbers from GM and Nissan so we can make a real comparison of real data in the coming year!
Looking forward to one day soon charging my LEAF (or my Volt) with my solar array…
Martin B.
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August 7th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
I also hate the idea of a car payment. I’d never buy a car I couldn’t pay cash for. But that’s just me. I hate the very idea of taking on debt in whatever form.
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August 7th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Here in Austin, we use 49% of our power mix as natural gas.
There is very little waste at any time. The grid in Texas, being 95% independent of all other states, is controlled so very tightly and precisely, that decisions are made to within the hertz cycle time frame of one-sixtieth of a second to throttle-up or throttle-down.
What natural gas does is allow for the immediate throttle-up OR immediate throttle down of megawattage.
There are advancements for the grid which are coming on line fairly quickly in Texas (and likely Nationwide) with immediate demand feedback (as well as limited residential HVAC coordinated compressor cycling), which will closely tighten the fluctuations via Smart meters as well as Smart HVAC thermostats.
Many of these measures will be more widely put into place by utilities Nationwide (and they had better get up to speed about this) so as to make sure that both BEV and EREV demands would be properly balanced, anticipated, controlled, and, if need be, in a brownout potential, greatly reduced or delayed for several hours if needed.
So, in the case of very hot days where peak demand from 3pm to 10pm would delay recharging, BEV owners must no forget to plug in every night in order to get that 8 full hours maximum-available recharge time, or, they may not have power reserves, and be at risk for getting stuck when they also have to use their BEV AC on the way home (that next hot day) with only a 20% or 30% SOC.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Don’t know about the world but Nebraska is pretty flat. Thank heaven for Colorado I guess.
Also off-peak charging will alleviate the need to build more capacity but it won’t eliminate it. If the roadside chargers are deployed in numbers to make range anxiety a thing of the past for EVs it is certain that some of that on-peak load will increase as people plug in at work or at their daytime destination, or at lunch along the interstate.
If the world were rounder maybe we could coast more? ;P
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I’d prefer the Leaf. I’d like to prefer the Volt but GM doesn’t have a history of quality production behind it.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
OnStar uses Sattelites for GPS, othwerwise it’s just a Cell phone for the car.
Again, if the Sattelites get updated to where OnStar’s gps is not compatable just like in the past, you’re pretty much stuck with an expensive cell phone in the car. But doesn’t everybody have a cell phone?
Sure they might be able to find your car if you accidentally drive into a tree in the woods if the sattelites are out but with just the cell towers it will take them much longer to triangulate your coordinate but only if the are at least 2 towers within range. But again, they can do the same on a cell phone and some/many now come with GPS.
In light of this, it looks like even if you have a cell phone with GPS, do you really want a cars phone with it’s seperate GPS too? Why? An additional bill $$$ for what?
Onstar is crap I don’t need, JIMHO.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
I just got bailed out of my 86 Vanagon (parents bought it new). I’m an engineer and could easily have bought something before now and actually would have kept the Bus if not for Chrysler and the fed giving me so much for it. The odometer stoped at 153,000 miles 8 years ago. I plan on driving all my future cars into the ground.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
I don’t use OnStar. I have a dash mounted GPS. Here’s what I found on how OnStar works.
The key to the success of OnStar’s signaling device is a well-crafted satellite system. It is similar to what is used in a lot of wireless technology. This satellite system is able to pick up signals from almost anywhere, which allows OnStar representatives to track calls like an operator in a cell phone company. It is also allows OnStar representatives to diagnose vehicle problems and send signals to do pertinent things like unlock a car door. This satellite system is basically at the core to the communication that goes on with OnStar representatives and their clients.
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4564226_onstar-work.html
=D~
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
And one more scary Nissan thing.
Although it was years ago, does anyone remember what the
“statistical average stated many years ago that someone keeps a car?”
It was said years ago to be
**********************
2 and a half years.
**********************
Scaaaaarreeeeee.
Enter PBP, stage right.
“Have we got a deal for you!!”
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Who keep their car more than 10 years? Lots of people!
My GMC truck is a 97 with over 250,000 miles on it!
Not one major problem with it!
Go GM, you make great cars.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
lol….
Yeah, when I first read that I got a little offended.
But after a beer at lunch, i’ve settled down.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Correction, wasn’t the GPS, it was the transition to digital on low orbit telecom infrastructure.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Definitely. BEV fits my needs (and future needs), but this is damn ugly.
Hopefully the new (”focus”) BEV ends up looking nice. Ford STILL hasn’t shown their new model yet, or confirmed that the EV fill be an actual Focus and not a different body.
Oh, and battery leasing = no thanks. I’d like to own my car.
Only problem with GM is the default install of onstar and satellite radio. You can leave those off, thanks.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
I disagree that a BEV can’t be a primary vehicle. If you live in a large metro area and most of the things you do are in a 10 mile radius you will be fine.
But even to your point that you need 2 vehicles: you could buy 2
cars, a BEV like the Leaf and a regular ICE car backup for still less than the price of one Volt.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I agree that there will be a wide range of options, probably through the middle of the century. I expect there will be more options than we know about now, long before then.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I hope the Volt does well, but my wife and I have a few cars and after driving the Mini E for a couple months, we are sold on all electric. “Pistons? We don’t need no stinking pistons!”
If for some reason we went down to 2 cars someday, then the Volt would be one of them. The other would be battery only, although I shudder at the thought of buying a Japanese car. But if they are the first, then, well, we’ll see. Ford is mumbling about a battery only car.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
The issue I have with OnShit is that it is “Embeded” hardware integrated into the car of which you do not have the option to not buy. Sure you can not sign up for the service but it’s still dead weight crap that will still draw curren in the car of which I never wanted the OnShit in anyway. How much does this OnShit hardware cost and why can’t one buy a car without it? Is the hardware FREE?
Second, telecom carrier protocols will eventually change. It went from analog to analog & Digital (Dual Mode) and straight digital then the modulation schemes evloved from AMPS to PCS to TDMA to GSM to CDMA and to now EVDO and the next of which I can’t divulge.
I own my cars longer than the use of the first 3 protocols I listed were in use. This would mean I bought crap that would eventually be “Depricated” if you will.
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August 7th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
lol…
Aw man, a BEV can be your only car. How often does one go out of their cars ICE range? We take vacations far away. At times I would rather rent an SUV so the wear and tear is on someone else’s car then I return it. That shouldn’t be an issue. So if one were to take such a priciple of buying the volt for it’s Looooooong range then I guess I need to buy a Gates Lear Jet so I can take my vacation to Disney World Florida, right?
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Mitsubishi Mirage 264,000 miles, clutch wore out, gave it away. I should have kept it. 36mpg down from 42mpg when new.
97 Tacoma 137,000 Will be given to a good home when I buy an Electric. Only getting 23mpg because of ethanol in gas.
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Well, my car is 10.5 years old and happens to have just rolled past 150K miles just a couple of weeks ago. With one exception I’ve never kept a car for less than 100K miles.
Adding to that, what would trade-in be on the LEAF if it’s common knowledge that the manufacturer doesn’t expect the battery to last beyond the warranty?
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
No worries… just thought I’d been misunderstood.
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
The anticipated BEV Focus, right?
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
There is no clear cut answer for me.
I’m going to chose the vehicle that I can BUY without ANY battery lease. The lease is the perfect spot where the companies can just recall them at any moment and you’re stuck without a way to power your car.
I either BUY out, or WALK out..simple as that.
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
The claimed 100 mile range is a joke. As you mention, this is the range using LA04, which would be perfectly appropriate if you were driving around LA in 1964 but has no relevance today.
We don’t, however, need go guess that much about the range. At most you’ll be able to use 80% of the battery pack (you need to reserve at the top for regen and you can’t fully discharge without damaging the battery). We also know that a US06 drive cycle using a car similar in size to the Volt/Malibu/LEAF would be 390 wh/mile. We also know that a median drive cycle would use about 300 wh/mile.
So the average driver will probably see a range of 65 miles. An aggressive driver maybe 50 miles. Without a lot of wind or driving rain and certainly not in cold weather.
There is a reason why Nissan really wants those public chargers.
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
With hydroelectric, you let less water through. With nuclear, you push the rods down a little. With fossil fuels, you burn less. Dissipating megawatts to ground would be tremendously destructive and wasteful.
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
One issue…gotta have 5 seats.
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Rain in Australia?!
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
The Blue Oval has bee quite on this lately.
I like Fords approach, just retrofit a “Shell” and plop in the batt pack and elctric motor and controllers etc….
I bet they’ll make $$$ on the first batch.
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August 7th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
It may be possible since the Leaf will much more aggressively cycle the batteries than the Volt (I’ve head 80% vs the Volt’s 50%). Overall I think it will be an excellent fleet vehicle and will sell well in Japan, but in the US it will struggle until larger, longer-lasting packs become available. I’m partially basing this asessment on the fact that even though I would consider myself fairly obsessed with electric-drive vehicles (at least compared to the general populace), I would never own one at this point even if I had the money due to its limitations. I imagine that I speak for the majority in saying that Voltec “wins” the popularity contest. For now at least. Yes, you can tell me about how fast-charging stations and rental range-extender trailers will soon make owning only a BEV possible, but for now they simply don’t exist, and gas stations do. I look forward to when they do exist and BEVs predominate, but that time is not now.
In any event, why can’t we all be friends and hope that both cars (and the ford focus ev) succeed
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August 7th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
I agree about the follies of building consumer electronics (with a 1-3 year lifecycle) into automobiles (with a 10-20 year life cycle).
And I don’t like the idea of a stranger in an office somewhere else being able to determine my location, unlock my doors, disable my ignition, and otherwise control my car. I can see a few benefits for such capabilities, but far more ways in which they can be abused, either maliciously or accidentally.
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August 7th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Press release:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/08/06/nissan-to-begin-retail-sales-of-leaf-ev-next-year-in-five-major/
The $99.8 million grant to eTec, which will be matched by regional project participants for a project valued at approximately $199.6 million, is for installation of approximately 2,500 charging stations in each of the selected markets – Tennessee, Oregon, San Diego, Seattle and the Phoenix/Tucson region. The project also involves the deployment of up to 1,000 Nissan LEAF zero-emission vehicles in each market.
I count 5 markets for a total of 5000 LEAFlets…….
“The Nissan LEAF will launch in the United States in late 2010.”
So lets apply our definition of what “Launch” is here at GM-Volt when GM says ‘our launch date is….’. So they are launching in 2010 is this not considered the date it goes on sale?
Personally I consider this the sell date, I dunno guys, WHAT SAY YOU?!?
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August 7th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Yeah, I expect only 70-80 mile range “Real”. Those numbers are usually calculated figures of power to weight and CD with tire resistance etc….
Either way, this will more than work for me. Even at 50 miles “Real” it would work.
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August 7th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
I live in Canada. So a BEV like the Leaf, unless it has a “block heater” for the batteries, would be useless. Assuming that the Leaf has one, it still would NOT be my choice. I’m not rich like some folks who buy 2 or 3 vehicles, and if the purchase p