Lets face it, new technology first generation automotive lithium-ion batteries are very expensive. It is this cost that will make the initial adoption of electric cars slower and less widespread than we would like. GM has positioned the Volt to have the least batteries, and thus the least expense possible, yet will still tip the scale at around $40,000.
Nissan which has unveiled its LEAF EV appears to be leaning towards leasing the battery separately from the car. They recognize this could reduce monthly cost of operation, and safeguard the company from its batteries which are unlikely to last 10 years/150,000 miles.
“We haven’t decided yet,” says Mark Perry Nissan’s director of product planning. “From a leasing standpoint the pros are a lot.”
The Volt, however, is designed to pamper the batteries very carefully and will be guaranteed for 10 years/150,000 miles. Over months of speculation the idea of leasing the batteries has occurred to GM too.
I recently had the chance to speak to Ed Peper, before he became former manager of Chevrolet, who explained that the company appears to be moving away from separately leasing the battery from the car.
“All the research that we’ve done says at this point consumers don’t want to separate the two,” he said. “This idea or notion of financing the battery separately from the vehicle, that’s not how people buy things and they don’t really want to do that.”
“No, they want to buy the vehicle,” he said.
There is also the issue of whether consumers could qualify for the $7500 tax credit if the battery isn’t purchased.
Consumers “want a commitment,” said Peper. “They want to buy the Volt and then have the ability to get the $7500 tax credit.”
Finally, asked if GM is leaning away from the separate battery lease idea Peper confirmed “that’s where were leaning towards,” though still cautions “we have not come to that final conclusion yet.”
And yes that’s a close-up photo I shot of the business end of a real Volt pack.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, August 5th, 2009 at 6:04 am and is filed under Battery, Financial. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+8
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:21 am)I know it was said yesterday that the battery in a BEV or EREV is akin to the gas in the gas tank, but to me it’s more an integral part of the car, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable leasing something I depend on so much if I had purchased the car. Now, if I leased the car too, I wouldn’t mind it.
+3
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:25 am)There ARE a lot of pros that argue in favor of leasing batteries, although I for one would not want to do so.
Not having thought through the logistics involved with leasing the battery, my first impulse is to ask, why not offer both options?
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:25 am)Damn Straight ED!
“All the research that we’ve done says at this point consumers don’t want to separate the two,” he said. “This idea or notion of financing the battery separately from the vehicle, that’s not how people buy things and they don’t really want to do that.”
Make it an option if there is a business case for leasing the battery but for me I won’t buy a car where I have to lease anything! The last thing I want in my life is more monthly payments
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:26 am)Radio Shack had a “Battery Club” where you were entitled to 1 free battery per month…….
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:28 am)complex looking business end……..I am guessing that the red plugs are for hot/cold coolent in/out from ice or external radiator
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:29 am)Nice photo. Those are good sized temperature control in/out lines at the bottom.
NGMCO and the Obama White House really need to get the tax credit changed to an instant rebate. This simple reformat will boost EV sales considerably. The benefit being more sales of green vehicles with less involvement of government office manhours. The downside is a little less tax revenue collected by Uncle Sam.
=D~
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:31 am)Nissan has made a mistake with their “bate and switch” marketing tactic.
“Hey, we’re going to sell a 100 mile BEV!”. “We forgot to mention that the price does not include the B in the BEV.”
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:34 am)“had the chance to speak to Ed Peper, before he became former manager of Chevrolet,”
————————————————
What has Ed Peper become now?
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:38 am)Like GLV, most people will feel more comfortable owning the battery as part of the car, I imagine.
For me, I’m really not sure. Buying the battery may place one at greater risk of a 1st generation battery problem, though maybe that’s covered by the warranty. For the general public, it may make it much harder to sell Volts because of the higher initial price, but I guess that will be offset by the rebate, for a while.
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:41 am)Dave K, re photo: What are the orange things at the top?
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:56 am)There has been a lot of talk and planning about the power utilities buying used batteries at the end of their lives and using them to store off peak power for times when more power is required , ( cheaper than building more power plants and all locally stored energy )
Here is an idea that could cut the full price of the battery out of the equation completely .
Have the power companies buy the battery from the Volt buyer at the time of purchase , when the battery reaches a set state of degradation the power company takes the battery off the Volt owners hands and installs a new one .
The benefits , GM would not have to worry about the warranty of the battery
The Volt owner wouldn’t have to pay for the battery and warranty costs or worry about it either .
The power companies would know how many batteries they would own and be able to plan for their placement in buildings and homes .
The Volt owner would not have to be concerned about future costs or warranty of the battery .
etc , etc .
This would be a win , win , win situation for the Volt buyer , GM and the power companies .
This sure would solve a great many of the problems associated with cost of the electric car , battery warranty , and battery replacement .
End result the Volt sold at a cheap price that everybody who is working or who has an income could afford to buy one .
It could truly become the “peoples car” of the 21st century .
To take this thinking farther the same thing could easily be done with other manufacturers of other battery powered cars including Pure Electric’s .
The utility companies have already said that they want the used batteries and they have the money to implement this program . I bet they could get additional funding from the government under some existing program too .
Just think about the possibilities , North America could have millions of Electric and Extended Range vehicles in a few short years instead of decades .
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:57 am)The “T” battery has a deep recess half way back. The right side orange connection is probably to the back half. right = rear
=D~
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:58 am)I’ll make a guess….. top two in orange – charge in 110/220. Middle – power out to motor controller. Red caps – coolant. Three between those – control connectors. …but of course, that’s just a guess.
…if you kiss me Ricky Bobby I will leave NASCAR forever.
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:00 am)I don’t know if this is updated.
http://media.gm.com/us/chevrolet/en/company/exec_bios/peper.html
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:12 am)I vote for buying not leasing.
What if I don’t make payments on the lease and they try to reposes my battery. Not good. Would anyone ever buy a car and lease the engine. I don’t think so.
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:13 am)If they lease the battery pack separately, it is a deal breaker for me. And what are you really saving? So you have two payments, instead of one that will add up to the same amount. Plus, if you lease the batteries, that payment never ends………
No thanks.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:19 am)It seems to me that if you are worried about battery life, there is a very easy solutions that fits into the current business model of all car manufacturers. Lease the car for 3 or 4 or 5 years. People do it all the time. Nothing new. Why would this be any different.
I plan to lease the car for 5 years, I’m almost guaranteed not to have any battery problems in the first 5 years, then it is GM’s problem after that.
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:19 am)Batteries not included*
(It’s “bait and switch” BTW)
+8
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:22 am)I don’t see how this is a win for the power companies. They buy a brand new battery and let the Volt owner use it for free for 10 years. Eventually, the power company gets back a used battery with 10-year old technology and a rapidly degrading capacity. And then they are on the hook for buying another new battery for the Volt owner. That doesn’t sound like a good deal to me. Why wouldn’t the power company just buy the battery and eliminate the Volt owner from the equation? At this point, it’s not even clear how long these batteries will last–hence the “lease-versus-own” discussion.
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:24 am)to GM: I want to buy my Volt and the battery too! NO LEASE! Bad idea!
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:36 am)I still don’t quite understand why Li/Ion batteries are so expensive. The raw materials really shouldn’t cost all that much. The control electronics shouldn’t be that expensive either. Granted the R&D costs are quite high but the amount of R&D costs that you have to get with each unit drops rapidly with volume production. Spend $100 million on R&D, sell only 10 units and you have to charge at least $10 million per unit (Think NASA Apollo). Sell 10 million units and you only have to charge $10. (Think iPhone).
I have no idea what the R&D costs for the Volt battery pack are but GM is planning on selling 100,000 packs. If the R&D was $100 million, than that translates into $1000 per pack. The rest of the cost would be parts and labor.
+8
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:38 am)Nissan has made a mistake with their “bait and switch” marketing tactic.
“Hey, we’re going to sell a 100 mile BEV! for $25,000”. “We forgot to mention that the price does not include the B in the BEV – that’s another $20,000.”
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:38 am)I can’t see myself locked into an agreement to pay a monthly fee for a battery for 10 years. What happens when I latter sell the car in years time?
I suspect in 10 years when the battery is no longer at its peak, it could still be reconditioned. To many things can transpire over such a period. I would not lease a battery; I would want to own it, even if I had to pay 8k up front instead of over a 10 year period.
I am one of the biggest fans of the Volt, but i can categorically say I would not buy a Volt if I had to lease the battery. I would want to own the car outright.
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:42 am)LOL – those homonyms get me everytime.
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:43 am)I will not buy a Volt if the battery has to be lease. I don’t like any sort of monthly payments!
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:48 am)Agreed, and after 5 years GM would have a history of battery life and would either know their testing results were valid or not so valid.
BUT, I fear GM would charge a hefty monthly lease payment for those first few years. [cover their butts]
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:49 am)Good guess — perceptive.
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:50 am)I agree!
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:53 am)Thanks — the link lists him as “Chevrolet General Manager” so it may not be up to date.
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:59 am)There are literally 2 or 3 things that would dissuade me from getting a Volt and leasing the battery would be one of them.
Somehow it seems lonely here, without the “dark side of the mtn” providing balance.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:03 am)Battery related but still, a bit off topic. THAT BATTERY IS REALLY PROTECTED!! Look at the thickness of the steel around it as well as the insulation. I think the shape of the battery is a plus as it will be much more dificult to protect a large flat battery due to the protective cage wanting to crumple during a crash.
+4
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:09 am)First, the Volt is useless without the battery pack. So it is a risk to buy the car and then lease the battery, because if your lease expires without a renewal option or the lease rate triples after the initial 4 year term, you won’t be a satisfied owner.
If GM had no faith in their battery pack, then the obvious option is to lease the vehicle and assume the maintenance costs (ala EV1, Mini).
However, the fact that GM is leaning towards the outright sale, indicates to me that they are satisfied with their lab tests, prototype performance, and IV road tests to date. This is good news IMO.
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:14 am)VP Biden will be handing out $2.4 Billion in battery pork today in Michigan. Kewl.
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:15 am)I understand that the battery pack enclosure is part of the frame.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:19 am)I agree that the power out to the motors is probably the middle connection (under the two orange connections). However, I would think that the charge would come back through this same connection, either from regen braking or grid power.
Since we are guessing, I will guess that the top orange connections are for diagnostics, with two separate circuits to independently test the battery condition (since circuit boards are shown at the top of the battery pack in cataway views).
The lower connections with the red plugs are coolant supply and return.
The lower 3 middle connections are somewhat a mystery, but I will venture a guess of temperature monitoring along with electrical element heaters to condition the battery on cold days.
+3
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:19 am)interestingly, if Nissan is leasing the battery, and selling the car at 25k, no battery, and the volt is 40k WITH the battery, and a battery is 8-10k (say 9 for avg) 25+9=33k add the ICE, extra controls and software to integrate the 2 (more complex system than the Nissan BEV), and it seems that even Nissan’s pricing is similar to the volt (napkin math here)
Personally its like
Salesman “Congratulations, here is your car!! ”
New Owner “It wont do anything”
SM “oh..to drive it will require a lease as long as you own it for the battery..its a battery car, need one? come back in and we’ll do that paperwork too”
NO” I though I bought the battery!!’
SM” no no no..the battery is not part of the car..the car needs it though..like gasoline in a regular car, except you can only get it from us..on a lease”
NO. “But you said my payments were $xxx.xx/month!!”
SM ” and they are..the battery is different tho..its about $xxx.xx per month additional..”
NO:” but I dont want an extra monthly payment… I can’t afford it!!”
SM ” No problem..we can have it towed to your place until you can!! No charge”
NO ” take it back..I don’t want it”
SM “Sorry, but you have a contract…:”
Sorry…I pay for FUEL (gasoline / electricity) after I buy. The storage unit for the fuel IS part of the car…
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:19 am)Leasing makes sense for people who really can’t afford 40,000, but really want to do their part to adopt the new technology and benefit the country (i.e. no more oil money to our enemies, lets give our money to Americans that build cars and generate electricity).
I assume in the case of a lease, the $7500 would go to GM, so a 3 year/36,000 mile lease might cost $400-500 a month? This would be a great way to make it affordable for me.
But of course this is a gamble for GM to lease cars, because if the demand for these cars isn’t there, then they would be stuck with the cars after 3 years. After all we know, by then second generation cars will be better and cheaper.
The flip side is if GM assumes that in 3 years there won’t be any more government rebates, applying that $7500 to the cost of just the first 3 years would allow them to lease the car and make some money.
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:28 am)Just an observation from the Voltage site. Britta Gross answers a question from Capt. Jack and Statik about “Plug-In Ready”,
“No doubt, we’ll have wildly enthusiastic customers and Volts will be flying out of the dealers’ showrooms. But how many early Volt buyers (early adopters) are there? A few thousand? Tens of thousands? We want to cause a major transition to electric vehicles to occur – after all, we’re investing a lot in this. It will take hundreds of thousands of vehicle sales to have any meaningful effect on the environment and on oil dependency. So we have to think further ahead about the things that prevent mainstream America from buying a Volt.”
Her entire post (#27) can be read here (Charging the EV Movement in the Voltage Forum).
http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=7&func=view&catid=12&id=111&limit=20&limitstart=20
This suggests to me that GM wants to go mainstream with Voltec and wants to get to high sales volumes with this technology.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:30 am)I suspect that the competition will find a way to reduce cost to the consumer. The leasing of the battery issue may be away of GM doing that. $40,000 plus is going to put a lot of prospective customers out of the market.
GM has to remember that the success of the first batch of Volts will become the draw-in tool for future marketing of the vehicle. If people love them they take others rides and provide the selling mentality for future sales.
GM needs to keep their heads on straight and have a good sound strategic approach to the future and not, just on the present. GM and, yes!, the Union took the mentality of the [present greedy] approach in, over abundance of money in the pocket mentality in the near past that got them into the debacle.
This new technology is the saving grace for GM as they are demonstrating they can adopt to the future otherwise, internal combustion (i.e., Oil Burners) engines are of OLD technology and time to move on.
-3
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:34 am)” They recognize this could reduce monthly cost of operation, and safeguard the company from its batteries which are unlikely to last 10 years/150,000 miles.”
Actually Lyle, according to Better Place, Nissan expects the batteries to last 200,000 miles.
http://www.betterplace.com/company/video-detail/transforming-transportation-globally-part-3/
Lets not forget that Nissan has invested over a billion dollars (more than the current development costs of the Volt) into just battery development. They own their battery technology and I’m sure they will “pamper the batteries very carefully” just as GM will. With 100 mile range, the batteries on average will also see less deep discharge cycles than the Volt battery. I have nothing against the Volt, but I also don’t assume that GM has a superior battery or battery management compared to Nissan.
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:52 am)Off-Topic:
“GM board orders faster new vehicle rollout”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090805/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_board_chairman_1
Doesn’t mention the Volt, though, unfortunately for all of you that have been demanding a faster rollout.
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:52 am)Can I lease a battery w/out buying a Volt?
Aug 5th, 2009 (8:56 am)I miss him too, Tag.
R.I.P. Statik. Wherever you are in the great heaven above.
+4
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:03 am)The electric power industry is researching giant sodium-sulfur type batteries for their own use; I believe that these will be ready long before there are significant numbers of used EV batteries.
It should be remembered however, that an old EV battery may be almost ideal for people to use at home; either to buffer wind or solar, or to buy power cheaply from the grid off-peak to use later.
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:11 am)The blocky shape will also help to limit thermal transfer from the environment; less surface area to battery mass. The flat, underfloor batteries so often cited by other manufacturers would be extremely difficult to thermally insulate, as well as protect.
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:13 am)In the Q & A portion of the site NIssan put up for the LEAF a nissan representative specifically stated that the battery was expected to last 5 yrs so I doubt they’re expecting to get 200,000 miles out of their battery.
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/?=tqd.ev.MCR.aug09evrevealem.OTH
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:16 am)Leasing the batteries might be a good idea for corporate or company owned fleets: it would just be another budgeted item without risking the unknowns of long-term battery life.
On the other hand, would the Volt be sought as a fleet vehicle as much as the current king of the hill, the Ford F-150? You can carry four people in a Volt vs two in the Ford, but very little ‘stuff.’
Here’s where the proposed EREV Orlando-variant could turn out to be an unexpected plus.
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:36 am)Me too. I don’t want to have to deal with monthly payments of any kind. That’s just one more thing I’ll have to think about. And I like to keep my life as simple as possible.
+3
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:39 am)Yes; I totally agree. If I buy a Volt and I am able to own the battery–as opposed to leasing it–I will consider keeping it for home use after it is no longer useful in the car.
Having said that, I really can’t see the utility companies utilizing millions of half-depleted batteries cast off from BEV owners. It just doesn’t make sense to me. If there becomes a real need for utility companies to utilize this type of electricity storage, they would most likely come up with a more cost-effective, predictable, scallable, and reliable method of storing electricity during off-peak times.
+3
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:41 am)The Volt is already on a fast track. I don’t think they can get it to market any sooner than November.
My guess is that Whitacre is worried about next year when they won’t have any new vehicles due to the temporary R&D/product development shutdown. So he’s fast tracking some of the cars they had postponed. I think it’s probably a good idea.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:43 am)As a financial advisor, I always tell my clients leasing is financial suicide. Of course so is financing a $40k car. If you can’t afford the car in full, don’t buy it. Its pretty simple, yet most of my clients are convinced they can afford it with the “payment mentality”. When I break it down for them on paper and show how much they lose to depreciation and interest, they usually get the point. I usually recommend buy a couple year old, late model car, as much as they can afford for cash.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:44 am)Anybody else here notice that white sticker near the middle of the picture?
I know, I know ….. this is a pre-production unit and things will change.
The sticker reads …. “FET GATE FIX W/ Daughter Board”.
It brings back some memories for me. Several years ago I worked at an Engineering firm where we developed all types of control electronics for consumer exercise equipment. One was a motor control system for treadmills. It used Pulse Width Modulation and a big FET (Field Effect Transistor) to control power to the DC treadmill motor. I did validation testing of the software. I needed to prove that a relay would open up to cut off power to the motor if there was over accelleration or an over speed condition sensed by the microprocessor. I would intentionally bypass the FET with a contactor to simulate a catastrophic short of the device. I had to have someone running on the treadmill at various speeds to duplicate real world use when I bypassed the FET. This test was a lot of fun to perform and watch.
I’m quite sure GM has all the possible bugs worked out of the Voltec control system.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:47 am)Our family always buys used, so the Volt will be our first new car – ever. We’re on the other end of the scale, keeping cars and running them until they get too expensive to fix. Our two vehicles have over a third of a million miles on them, but both still get over 20 mpg. I assume we’ll be keeping the “original” Volt for many years (and loving every minute). Bottom line is “no lease for me” – not the car OR the battery.
JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:47 am)I won’t buy a car that I have to continue paying on after I have paid off the car. What is GM going to do, come and jack up my Volt and take the battery if I don’t pay the lease? Lease is a bad idea for the general consumer. If the battery was designed to last 10/150 as we’ve been told, then in half that time the price of a new battery is estimated to be 50% of original cost. That means at 10 years when I do need a new battery, I may pay a max of $4000.00 for it, most likely less. Let’s see 4000/10 years – $400.00 a year plus electricity – I’m still way ahead over driving my SUV on gasoline, especially over a 10 year period.
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:51 am)Now THAT’s an interesting question. Anyone with solar or turbine power would be interested.
Hmmmmm.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:52 am)Thanks for the reference. Interesting that they quoted such a low lifetime in years. Still, I doubt that the GM will be able to do any better than Nissan in terms of battery life. I guess that figuring in an extra battery in the upfront cost of the Volt is about the same as Nissan suggesting the battery will last about 5 years. Lets hope both companies far exceed their expectations.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (9:57 am)cooter,
Kewl?? Statik would have provided a link (g). Just joshing you.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:01 am)I can answer that with, DUH!
It’s the freaking price. They want to go mainstream as quickly as possible? Make the price a mainstream price. EREV is a no brainer when you take price out of the equation for the consumer.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:02 am)BillR,
From your lips, to God’s ear. Comforting the buying public about the reliability of a battery is clearly going to be an uphill struggle for starters!. If there is any sense of “you might want to lease the battery, “just in case”. That shouldn’t even be an option, because it’s sends the wrong message.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:05 am)Interesting idea Keith but too many practical issues. The biggest one may be that there so much uncertainty about what will happen in the the future, and the technology is moving so fast, that the he utilities wouldn’t want to make a commitment on the front end so far out. Jackson has pointed one issue, which is the technology, but there would be many questions. Questions questions like is using the battery feasible, how much battery would be left, etc. etc..
My guess is that the battery will be used in the car until it is junked, at which point it will either be recycled or end up as a backup battery system in a home or business.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:08 am)I want to own all of my car and hopefully one day make my own energy for this car too. Also I hate leases.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:10 am)I think he’s General Manager Cadillac Sales.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/07/gm-fills-board-shuffles-execs—doesnt-change-much.html
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:12 am)Good point. Their commitment to selling the car, rather than leasing the car means they have to be pretty satisfied with their engineering and the test results.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:19 am)Keeping in mind that you can normally buy a car which you’ve leased for a price established on the front end, leasing a vehicle like the Volt would give you the option of trading it in for the next generation or buying it. (The monthly payments depend on the acquisition price, the price at the end of the lease, and the interest rate). For me the lease is preferable but it just depends on whether the financing or the leasing deal is better. I’ve always bought the car at the end of the lease period so it ends up working out about the same way. (Paying cash never seems to make much sense).
One issue with all this talk about cutting the price with each generation is that this will hurt the resale for the earlier generations, though that hasn’t hurt the Prius resale that much. However, in CA this may have been due to the fact that the first generation Prius were able to get HOV stickers, and those have value!
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:20 am)Yes, this lease issue would always get him wound up!
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:21 am)Good point!
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:22 am)Lease on the batteries is one of the things that MOST appeals to me about the Nissan Leaf. A few years down the road, if something better is available, they could swap batteries and voila, a 250 mile range EV.
With the Volt, because it’s an EREV and not an EV, there is less appeal for a leased battery. However, if I were in the room and partaking in the discussions, I would not dismiss the merits of battery leasing, even in an EREV.
A 40 mile AER Chevy Volt with the potential to turn into a 60 or 80 mile AER Chevy Volt in a couple of years makes it more appealing to early adopters as well as widing the field of potential new Volt buyers.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:22 am)Lease? I don’t know about that.
However, I think a new home battery market might become an option for someone like LG Chem, looking to maximize a return from large-format Lithium Ion cell development.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:24 am)Also if you use the car for business it’s frequently advantageous and invariably easier to write off lease payments. You just take the lease payments and multiply by the percentage of miles used for work. If you buy the vehicle then you’re stuck with a lot of calculations or counting miles at not so hot rates.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:26 am)I think this is the consensus for the board, and I agree.
Then again, this situation reminds me of another: Once when I was looking for a place to live, someone mentioned a condo. When I looked into it, I found that not only would I have to buy my unit, I would also had to pay after-the-purchase fees for the full time I would live there. “Why would anyone do that,” I wondered.
The point being, that millions of people do.
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:29 am)She actually said it’s the “freaking price”. She just used corporate speak rather than your more plain language. Basically GM wants to push for more subsidies so the price comes down.
-13
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:33 am)(click to show comment)
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:34 am)I think that the battery lease only works if it is relatively easy to change out the battery. If it is like changing an engine then forget it. But if I mechanic can do it in 1-2 man hours, then perhaps I might want to lease the battery for two years and have the option to then install and lease the next gen battery that will likely be lighter, cheaper, or provide more range.
I think that most people want to own the battery, but we also hate upfront costs. For me, the $40,000 price tag is the deal breaker. Although I know that the operating costs will be low, it is almost impossible to get over the sticker shock. However, if you can knock $8,000 or more off the price and the salesman carefully points out that the battery lease + electricity will be on par with 35 mpg at $2.75/gallon (I’m just making an educated guess here), then suddenly I’m starting to think that I can afford this car.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:37 am)I recall statik observing that the sale of GMAC to one of the bailed-out banks meant that there was very little funding available to power leases (pre BK, wouldn’t know where it stands, now).
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:38 am)Jackson,
You’re right. I was thinking “inside the box” of buying a Volt and leasing the battery or just leasing the battery. Kdawg’s post mentioned leasing and that’s what my head wrapped around.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
+3
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:42 am)Geez fellas, he’s preserving some of his time, he’s not dead.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:45 am)I think some the advantages mentioned in this subcomment, must be lessons learned from the EV-1 program. Considering this: although the chemistry and size of the battery changed between EV-1 and now, the basic, blocky T-shape is almost the same… just scaled up.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:47 am)I think that there would need to be a lot of language at the start of such a lease to specify what the ‘upgrade’ policy would be. Someone would have a financial investment in the leased batteries to protect. Maybe it’s cynicism (hey, someone has to try and step up in statik’s absence), but I imagine there will be some protection for the leassor at the expense of the leassee (you’ll have to pay something extra, somehow or other, to just upgrade from a still-working battery, even it it isn’t still working as well).
GM has stated that later Volts will still only get 40 miles AER with a smaller pack. If it is physically possible to put a newer pack in an older Volt, there will be some benefit from lower weight, but this won’t extend to a 50% range improvement. Our best hope is that GM changes it’s mind and decides to offer such an old pack with new cells expressly for this purpose, or someone finds a way to offer improved range in the same-size pack as an aftermarket item.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:51 am)Why not do both? That way the customer has the choice. I’m guessing they would like to put that expensive and unproven battery on lay-away. The monthly payment will be less than what they pay for gas anyway.
I think Nissan is going to show that the leased battery or the Battery Place model is going to be very popular. Buy your EV today for only $20,000 and then end up paying less per month to drive. Makes perfect sense. It’s also much harder to qualify for a $40,000 loan than it is for a $20,000 loan. The subsidy should work for either because in the end they both cost the same. If the government only pays for the owned model they are hurting the other business models. That’s unfair, if you ask me. They are deciding, not the market.
I agree that the Pros are many. You don’t have to worry about the battery going bad, the temperature you drive it at, what you are going to do with it when it does go bad, etc. They will take care of all the details for the weakest link (by far) of the whole vehicle.
A well designed EV should last for a million miles, if you don’t take into account the batteries. If you lease the batteries for 5 years you can just get the net new technology for the next 5 years, and so on.
I think when people realize just how easy these EVs are going to be to maintain they will see the light about not buying the battery.
Either way, let’s do both!
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:51 am)I’m sure you can find him over at the Voltage site if you miss him that much. He probably didn’t have time to blather/whine/pontificate on two sites concurrently, or he saw the Voltage site as a better option to continue his good work.
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:58 am)I don’t know that much about batteries–but wouldn’t you be better off with a battery pack optimized towards home use? Instead of one optimized for the Volt?
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (10:59 am)GM then would shut off or restrict operation using On Star.. but you are right, that would be a sticky one.
In any case, many of these $40k plus cars are leased..
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:01 am)If you read my post #20, I am willing to sacrifice to do my part to bring on the new technology and not use OIL. Leasing might be a way to afford it, it all depends on the leasing deal. I’d hate to have to buy a chinese electric car if thats all I could afford.
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:06 am)Yeah, I dont understand it either.. these are mass produced items.. $1000 for a motor?.. its not a complicated device, it does not need high tolerances fabrication or assembly. Most likely manufactured in Viet Nam.
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:09 am)Probably, but I was thinking that the maker of the cells might benefit more from developing such a pack than an automaker who has to buy the cells in the first place for cars.
Actually, the requirements for the Volt are probably more rigorous than for a house, which is another reason why a used EV battery would make more sense than a new one (in addition to the cost difference).
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:09 am)If gas is $2.75 a gallon in 18 months, then not only will GM be out of business but so will our government. Because the only way gas isn’t over $4 a gallon in 18 months is if we are still in recession, and that means our government after spending all that money, and not getting growth in the economy to increase tax revenues, will be about to collapse.
Lets not forget why most of us are even reading this website. Because we know the world is changing, and we either move quickly to a new energy paradigm, or our economy will collapse. So we need to move on with the new economy, generate our own energy, and power our cars, home and business with our own energy from our own economy.
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:09 am)Starting from the top….
Looks like the first 2 orange 2pin connectors may be “Charge” connectors.
Below them is the 2pin connector with a warning sticker with a picture of statik falling which is most likely the 336VDC connector out.
Below that, are most likely the BMS control interfaces for the three sets of 96 cell in series sub packs.
The bottom two round large “F” connector types with red “Remove Before Flight” caps are probably the micro climate control fluids in/out.
That’s my SWAG an i’m stickin to it.
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:11 am)The Prez is speaking in Indiana about hybrid and electric tech funding.
Oops, he just shifted to health care. Sorry.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:11 am)but would you get a bigger tank for your ICE car if its available for better range?
my thought is GM will not keep 2 styles of batteries, but always design backwards compatible. Battery fails under warranty..in goes the new one, it has better capacity..quick software update to take advantage of new AER..out of warranty…buy a new volt.
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:12 am)but leasing 25k for the car, and 10k for the battery is ok (35k)
then take 2 loans for a volt at 20k each…
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:15 am)lol….
If they lease anything, any part of the Volt. The EV-1 ghost will haunt GM till they are dead.
GM, if you are reading this, Leasing any part opens bad wounds for you. Doing so means you learned jacksh|t from the past and will losse a high percentage of your cutomers. No matter how much any State/City/County is “Plug-in-ready”, you’ve shot yourself in the a$$ if you lease anything. I for one will not lease kacksh|t from you.
I wonder what Chelsea Sexton ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Sexton) thinks about this. What do you thing plug in America would say?
lol. wow, to even consider this is a joke.
OK, ok, I know some of you will want to lease the car in whole and that’s fine if that is an option but do make it mandatory for a leass of any type.
-2
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:40 am)The government should extend CARS to apply to only the Volt once it comes out. It would make the car more affordable, ensure sales for GM, and boost replacement of IC vehicles. Only issue might be that for most people driving a “clunker”, they might not be able afford it even at $28k.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:43 am)We can carry six in our leased 4 door F-150! (more if you want to ride in the bed ):) I REALLY like the Orlando as an option. A 1/2 ton truck would be nice too. I know that would be expensive, just looking forward to when parts get cheap.
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:48 am)Funny, that is what I said earlier!
…. shake and bake…..did you see that?….that.. just.. happened!
-2
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:54 am)All that Nissan has said is that the total cost of ownership is similar to a well equipped compact car.
Only when the price details are announced we will know how much they have kept their word.
One possibility is base price of leaf (without battery) = price of a similar gas car and
Lease on battery + electricity charge = gas cost on a monthly basis.
This would make their “total cost of ownership is similar to a well equipped compact car” true.
Its not like they first said it would cost in the 20′s and now they are saying it will cost $40K
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:06 pm)Scenario 1.
Hey thats my battery please dont take it repo man how will I get home.
Scenario 2.
Well Volt buyer you qualify for the car but you need another 5K down to qualify for the battery pack.
Scenario 3.
What do you mean my trade is is worthless? Well Volt owner your battery lease is up and the car is basically a shell with no “engine”
It’s worthless with no propulsion. After all it’s a generator and an electric motor. ows that workin for ya?
Scenario 4.
Well I turned in my batteries early so I couls lease the new extended range cheaper lighter battery pack. Sorry your still liable for the early adopter over pirced battery pack. you still owe $5,000 for the old pack. We can not help you till you pay it off or buy the new pack cash.
-2
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:06 pm)Or buy a Honda Insight for $20k and be done with it…
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:12 pm)If you only want a car for a limited time period, it makes sense to lease a car. That way, when the lease is up, you don’t have to sell it, or worry about depreciating values. You can just turn it in. Sometimes people are willing to pay a substantial premium for that convenience.
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:15 pm)Or just give customers three options, to match the customer’s needs/wants:
1. Buy the whole car outright
2. Least the whole car
3. Buy the car but lease the battery
Then, let the market sort it out.
Personally, I’m leaning toward leasing my first electric vehicle — not because I think it’ll be a bad vehicle, but because I fully expect to upgrade in 3 years when the next generation of battery technology makes it into mass production. I’m consciously deciding to get on an upgrade treadmill until the technology stabilizes — and a lease can make the costs predictable, even if I’m paying a bit of a premium for being able to unload the car with a predictable amount of depreciation when I want to upgrade.
OTOH, there is the risk of an EV1-style fiasco….
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Well then YOUDAMAAN!!!
Go Ricky, Go Ricky…..
Love the name bro!
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:23 pm)I would like to be able to buy the Volt without a battery warranty. My initial cost is greatly reduced as I am personally assuming the risk of the $10k battery replacement cost without being forced to pay for a battery warranty that I might not need. I can they simply buy a replacement battery if and when it needs to be replaced.
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:42 pm)My question wasn’t in regards to home use. I was thinking more for use my own electric vehicle. (or a competitor using it in theirs)
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:46 pm)I have friends that lease all the time. They have the $ to buy cars, but they dont want to own cars. They want something new every 1 to 2 years, that is reliable and maintenance free. You pay a premium for the convenience of leasing and getting to drive a new car, but if thats what you want, I dont see a problem with it.
I keep my cars for years, so i ofcourse buy them. But i dont knock ppl that dont want to do that. How often do you replace your cell phone? Laptop? etc.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:51 pm)It has always been the plan to reduce the size of the battery post-Gen I in order to get 3-across seating in the back. This will commit GM to (at least) two physical formats for the foreseeable future. The later pack will only be possible with better (yet to be developed, but expected) cells. It seems like a fairly simple matter to recondition an old format battery with new cells. The trick would be the firmware, which would be difficult for any aftermarket supplier to accommodate, I agree.
It’s possible that GM may end up putting new cells in the old-style pack anyway in order to make a larger kwh pack for a larger Voltec vehicle such as the CUV.
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:58 pm)Condo fees pay for building maintenance. And salaries (the doorman, handyman, etc.) If you want amenities like doorman or a pool or an exercise room, there’s no other way to do it. If you own your own house, you probably have to pay to have people come and fix the room/mow the lawn, etc.
Paying a monthly fee for a battery is completely different. It’s not like the battery need maintenance. If it did, I could see paying a monthly fee for a services contract (which would be analogous to the condo fees), but I would consider that a major barrier to the widespread adoption of electric cars.
Aug 5th, 2009 (12:59 pm)but if the battery fails in 2 years, you may complain in forums.. and you may also sue anyways.. how do we know you wont do that?
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:01 pm)The arrangement with GM will probably preclude LG Chem from providing cells (remember, GM is building the pack themselves), but there are other large-format Li/Ion players poised to enter the business. Obviously, the preferred model for any cell maker would be to supply units to a bona-fide auto manufacturer. Whether any of them would play to the DIY market is unknown, but my guess is later rather than sooner, or never (and are you going to DIY your own pack?).
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:06 pm)If you can hold your nose for a pale knock-off of the hybrid status-quo Prius, and can actually find an Insight equipped to sell at $20K, go for it.
I’ve already decided to get a ‘bridge’ car to the Volt, since it looks like I won’t get a shot at Gen I; I opted for an efficient, well-equipped non-hybrid for quite a bit less than $20K (saves money for The Day)
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Lyle,
Three braking news:
1. 2,6 billion funding for battery advance.
2. Juka mauntain project close (newclear waste reprocessing) and 9 billion investmet sending to the trash.
3. US participation in the ITER cancelatio.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:13 pm)… and their cars were 6 – 10 inch long plastic toys made in China …
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:21 pm)That goes to prove my point. The stripped down model is ALWAYS sold first then your left with the higher trims. I h8 that sh|t. An you people think i’m nuts to want them to offer my ghetto strip model.
Sheesh.
fyi, I too need a bridg car till I can get the Volt. Don’t know what to get yet.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:22 pm)My guess is that if a compeitors wanted to use the VOlt battery pack, they’d probably have to come to some arrangement with GM (which I’m sure they could do). I doubt LG’s contract with GM lets them make the battery pack for anyone else. But I would think that a competitor could come to their own arrangement with LG if they were willing to modify the pack a bit.
But I tend to doubt they’ll make it available for home builders. I would think there’d be too much potential liability. But you never know.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:27 pm)I imagine that includes the Cruze and the Spark, or whatever it will be called.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Dude, tha batt pack is probably soo damn proprietary that it would take you years to be able to “interface” with it.
But you gat ahold of one lemme know!!!
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:31 pm)Since we’re all guessing… Two orange connectors are “+”, the big black connector is ground, the three little guys are data, and the two red caps are cooling/heating.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:37 pm)They seem to always skirt around the question on what they consider is “Plug-in-ready”. I’m surprised they haven’t killed my account yet.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:38 pm)Worse, I think the typically leases involve some kind of restrictions etc. Thats the part I dislike about leases. And an “unlimited miles/no restrictions lease” I see as being very expensive for these batteries. Thats one of the reasons I would never go for a car lease. Feeling like someone else has decided how I will use my car.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:38 pm)Leasing the battery wouldn’t be so bad if the cost wasn’t excruciatingly high. But if its anything like leasing phones in the old days, it will cost an arm and a leg over the life of the battery. I can lease my modem for my computer for $5 a month, year after year or buy it outright for $60.
There is one advantage to leasing, As batteries continue to upgrade, as I think they will, leasing would be a quick way to get a better battery.
i don’t think anyone will want to be driving around with a 2010 battery in 2020. Leasing may also reduce initial purchase costs.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:38 pm)I agree with you, GLV. I would rather own the complete vehicle unless I was leasing the complete vehicle. I don’t see GM offering leases until the initial demand is met. When that will be I am not really sure. I guess when sales fall off and dealer stock starts building up. Leasing then would make sense from a marketing standpoint. That, to me, is the only time leasing ever makes sense for an auto company.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:39 pm)Absolutely, there is no reason the utility would need to choose the same type of battery that a car buyer would want. Their batteries will be stationary. They can, and probably should be massive. They MUST last nearly forever both calendar wise and cycle wise. If they chose a high temp liquid salt system, it could be effective for them because of the self insulating properties of being large (surface area to volume ratio). The engineering requirements and economics are both different.
For the Volt:
electrical cost at $.10/kWh is $.02/mile
battery cost is ~$10,000/150,000 =$.07/mile
batteries cost 3.5 times what the energy from them is worth.
This is absolutely a non-starter for a utility. Quadrupling the cost of electricity won’t sell. They must have a different solution. But it works great for cars because an electric drive train is about 5 times more efficient than an internal combustion engine and petroleum is getting to be a premium cost energy source. You can save money and the world with electric cars. You will go broke trying to sell electricity from the same batteries. Except for special case of peak levelling.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:42 pm)I’ll venture a guess that the 2 orange 2pin connectors are safety interlocks to enable / disable the High Voltage output for the Drive Motor.
1. One to sense charging port use.
2. One tied into the air bag system.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:46 pm)Sorry, Keith, but I thing you are batting at the ball and still missing it. Even if the power companies would purchase old batteries, they don’t want to purchase 10,000, 50,000 or whatever that year’s production of Voltec vehicles would be, not including the other batteries in other vehicles. They would want to purchase a few here and there as they needed them at the most. Using them for home electrical storage would be a better application for those with wind or solar generators. Most home owners could charge them at night as they would charge their EV and use the power to supplement their daytime electrical use. Better think on this one some more. You are looking at the problem with the right thought, but your field of vision is much too broad.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:49 pm)Lee Iacocca once said that’s it doesn’t matter if you make a mistake but it’s unacceptable to make the same mistake twice. Or something to that effect.
I believe GM made that mistake once. I don’t think they need a reminder of not doing it again.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:50 pm)Assuming that I want to drive a 1st generation plugin vehicle for 3 years, then upgrade to whatever technology is available in 2014.
The question is:
1. Will the batteries and cars sold in 2014 be better than the ones sold in 2011?
2. Will the market be flooded with EVs and PHEVs with better batteries than the original Volt in 2014?
3. How much would 1 and 2 cause an original Volt to depreciate?
So, if the market is going to be flooded with great PHEVs and EVs in 2014, then leasing makes sense — the leasor takes any hit beyond what we agreed to up-front. OTOH, if demand for plugin vehicles will be so high that I can sell my 3-year old Volt or Leaf for close to what I paid for it (like the market in used Prii[0]), then buying outright makes sense.
I guess I’ll need a bunch of numbers before I can rally make this decision.
[0] But the used Prius market isn’t a great model, since the Prius hasn’t significantly obsoleted itself.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:53 pm)Those are the two major issues — energy and health care — that we’ll need to fix if we expect to enjoy higher growth rates. You can’t have good economic development unless you have a well educated, mobile, and healthy work force, and you can’t keep much of the fruits of your labor if you’re energy costs are very high and you’re spending most of your energy budge abroad.
So good priorities would be health car, education, and energy. Those would be my priorities and they all seem linked IHMO.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:54 pm)Texas,
See my comment below. Leasing of the complete will be offered when it is advantageous to GM. Initially GM will be in the driver’s seat in relation to selling all of their production. Leasing of only the battery could be offered and may very well be offered. As Lyle stated in the article, GM has not come to a final decision. I see advantages to leasing the battery, but it makes all the components of owning the vehicle much more complicated. Taxes, titles, insurance to name just a few things. Doing something like this will be going down a path I am not sure has been trodden before. What are the legal implications of doing this type of sale where you sell the vehicle but lease the battery? Do some states have laws that may prevent tihis? GM, hopefully, is doing a lot of research on this and I am sure they will reach a decision that is advantageous to them and works fairly well for the customer. Let’s hope so.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:57 pm)When the warranty is over in 10 years, the cost of a new battery will not be 8K or 10K but rather 1000 to 2000 dollars.
If your car is still in great shape, it might be interesting to buy a new one and keep your car longer.
If not, you can still use the old depleted battery until your car dies. You might not have 40 miles of electric drive each day but it’s an old car. Who cares ? When time comes, you’ll change it for a brand new one. Planned obsolescence at its best.
There even might be availability of a second hand market to buy a used battery cheap. People will have accidents in electric cars. Parts will be available.
I’d rather not lease the battery and pay each month forever.
Aug 5th, 2009 (1:59 pm)I came to the same conclusion also.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:04 pm)Yes, those seem to be the choices GM would need to allow for. I am still of the opinion that GM would not offer to lease the complete car until sales start to drop off. Leasing the complete car causes someone to have to deal with the vehicle at the end of the lease and that cost money. A straight up and down sale is preferred by any auto company. Leasing the battery? I don’t know. I understand the reasons and they are good ones.
Personally, I would rather lease the complete vehicle or purchase the complete vehicle. Two options that would be easy solutions to most customers and would not involve the possible side-effects of owning the vehicle while leasing the battery. I just don’t know other than that.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:05 pm)Good come back!
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:06 pm)I have a question for everyone. Especially for those who say the price of gas will dictate the sucess of any efficient car.
If I can not afford the Volt now when it is $2.90/gal what makes you think that I can afford the Volt when it is $10.00/gal?
Seriously, exactly how would one be able to purchase the Volt at 40K whether gas is $2.90/gal as opposed to $10.00/gal? How does it even dictate the price of the Volt?
Even better, how does a State/City/County that’s plug-in-ready make it affordable for anyone?
lol….
Imma post on the Voltage.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:07 pm)That is what I thought they were also. The electric plug looking connector at the middle left is probably the power plug. The other connectors are a mystery to me. Some are for communications with the electronics on the packs to the main computer system, but I am not too sure what some of them are for. One day, I am sure, we will know. But speculation is all we have now.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:10 pm)I was thinking they were the cables connectors for the charger to the packs. I did not say that very well. Power input cables as to opposed to the one power output from the battery. But, I am just guessing.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:11 pm)Me (Ricky Bobby)
I would say you made a very good guess. My thinking was running that way also.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Seems more like “anyone’s guess” today. Everyone who has made a stab at guessing the purpose of the connectors have made sensible sounding guesses. We can’t all be correct. Interesting, to say the least.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:16 pm)It is much too early in the game to determine just what Nissan is going to do. Even if the do offer a BEV without batteries, we don’t know that it will be a bad decision. Just not enough information to make any kind of intelligent decision on our part at this time. Same for GM and the Volt.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:20 pm)Right. So many “legal” things to consider for GM and the customer. I believe GM will off the Volt for sale as a complete unit. Later as Volts become popular, production is up and sales start to flatten out, GM will offer leasing the complete vehicle as a sales tool the way it has always been intended in the past. I will be surprised if GM sells the Volt and leases the battery. Nissan might do it, though/ Different people, different environment, different thinking, different experiences. And on and on.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:21 pm)You probably would be offered the option to purchase the battery at the end of the lease.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:25 pm)Tag,
This is where one of the Prius lurkers would speak up and say since your family likes buying used vehicles, you should hold off buying a new Volt to wait a couple of months. Then go down to the nearest Toyota dealer and buy a Volt that has been traded in on a Prius by one of dozens of unhappy Volt owners.
I just thought I would beat them to it this time. How do you like them apples?
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:27 pm)Please clear up the term “HOV stickers”. I don’t know what you mean.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:29 pm)Business owners are very familiar with the lease v buy proposition. I don’t think most retail customers would be comfortable with leases even if that is how they pay for their homes.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:30 pm)My thoughts also, Mike. I miss the old fella, but he is just lurking around and reading everything we have to say. Probably chuckling about some of the comments too. Good old Statik….
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:31 pm)A higher price of gas won’t make the Volt more affordable, but it does mean you’ll save more money on gasoline. Most people will be willing to pay more money upfront if it means they’ll actually save money later.
I’m not sure what people mean by plug-in-ready, but I think it means having charging stations available. That doesn’t affect affordability as much as convenience and usability of the car. However, if it increases your usage of the electric range of the Volt so that you can use more electricity and less gas, it might save you money. It might also increase some people’s willingness to have a BEV as their only car…
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:32 pm)Keith there is some merit there if you seperate out power producers and retail market utilities. Certainly there could conceivably be a market for tempering the variability of renewables from power producers, at the right price.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:33 pm)One thing for sure. GM certainly did not design the pack for any kind of quick battery swapping arrangement. I am sure it can be done, but by skilled technicians and not by some piece of automated equipment like that envisioned by a Better Place video.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:35 pm)Well, scaled down from the EV1 to the Volt. The EV1 battery was much larger and weighed, what, 700 lbs versus the 400 lbs of the Volt’s battery. Just think what gen 4 or 5 may look like.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:35 pm)Won’t make it any easier to purchase, just makes it more justifiable the higher the gas price goes. People are likely to pay more up front for a Volt than pay high prices for gas as they go along (whether it makes actual financial sense or not; who’s to say that it won’t be higher ‘next week,’ no matter how high it is ‘now’).
Then, there’s the whole spot-shortage issue that’s sure to come along with prices that high; a Volt in that environment could be the difference between driving and walking.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:41 pm)Lyle,
What is the likelihood that you could get GM to explain just how they are testing the IVers. They probably have a step by step plan for each car to follow. Drive it so many miles at this speed, then do this and then that. At a certain point I suppose they bring each car back into the lab and run more test on the battery and other components to see what they can find. Then its back outside for another series of test. Then more analysis. You can see the pattern I am wondering about. Surely this would not be hush-hush information and they might be willing to “discuss” their procedures with you to share with us. OR one of you GMers who are reading this blog every day might be able to post an article through Lyle. I believe it would be good information to share with us without hurting GM. Might prove a good PR step for GM. Couldn’t hurt – now could it?
-1
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:42 pm)Hmm, lets see. Wife has a Honda Civic and her monthly gas bill is less than the lease payment for the battery. Not even counting the increase in the monthly electric bill. Now the Volt is not looking so sharp in the garage. Just a thought…
Ken
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:45 pm)It means that you can use the High Occupancy vehicle lane without having an extra passenger. I can see buying a Prius for just that reason if I lived in LA. From what I’ve heard it reduced your commute time considerably.
I believe that BEVs still get the sticker. But, unfortunately, I don’t think the Volt will.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:45 pm)Yes indeed, scaled DOWN to the Volt. I didn’t word that so well.
BTW, it’s scaled even more than that… the EV1 battery (the first edition Pb-Acid version) was something like 1,100 pounds! I’ll see if I can find a reference.
EDIT: Hard to find, but the figure “1,175″ is alluded to in this post by Gary Witzenburg on ABG:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/15/at-witz-end-gm-ev1-the-real-story-part-iv/
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:46 pm)Don’t forget the gasoline she purchases each month if you are comparing cost. Any true comparison of the Volt against any number of fuel efficient gasoline cars (like your wife’s Civic) is going to be unfavorable to the Volt. Purchasing a Volt is more than trying to save a little money each month. If that were the case, we would all be purchasing the lowest priced KIA vehicles we could find.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:48 pm)I agree. I’ve said many times, there’s not a snowball’s chance in my backyard that I would lease any part of an electric vehicle from GM. I don’t think we have to go into any details there.
But, let’s assume that they at least are sensible enough not to make any closed leases (and even better allow an early buyout of the lease). Then what you’re really talking about is a deferable purchase with a monthly payment option.
Then the pertinent questions are:
1) do you still qualify for the tax rebate?
2) is your car licensing significantly cheaper?
3) is your sales/use tax significantly cheaper?
4) is your insurance cost affected?
5) how does the total cost compare vs. a car loan?
For me, I really want to just buy the car outright but I might be willing to dodge ~11% taxes on 10k worth of battery if the conditions are right. Not to mention that the 2% licensing is assuredly going up significantly in CA due to the lack of money. So, might be closer to 15 or 16% on 10k worth of battery. (And that 2% likely 6% licensing you have to keep paying every year. So, you could be saving hundreds of dollars per year in taxes alone).
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:48 pm)Not good. Would anyone ever buy a car and lease the engine. I don’t think so.
_____________________________________________
Would any one ever pay most of their expected gasoline costs up front…Given suitable incentive and a choice, yes some would, and buying the battery with the car is conceptually similar. ( http://www.gasolinegasoline.com/gasoline_fuel_banks.html )
+2
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:50 pm)I live in British Columbia where about 90% of the electricity sold by our public utility (BC Hydro) is hydroelectrically generated. Storage of electricity is not really and issue, as when more electricity is needed in the power grid, the “taps” are turned on, and when less is needed, they are turned off. Water in reservoirs behind a dam act as electricity “storage”.
Dumb question … instead of electric utilities who generate power from coal, natural gas, nuclear ,etc. investing in second-hand batteries for electricity storage – could they not just pump water (if available) into a man-made reservoir, then generate hydroelectric power as needed?
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:52 pm)N. Riley notes “I don’t see GM offering leases until the initial demand is met.”
—————————–
Keep in mind that leases are structured to be profitable, not neutral, so GM does have an incentive.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:52 pm)You make a good point, Tag. I just don’t think they will offer but one option initially and that is to purchase the complete vehicle. All of the first and second year’s production will sell as soon as they hit the showroom. Probably weeks before based on a waiting list. Only if the battery shows sub-par results in real-life use would GM seriously consider leasing the battery when they sell the vehicle. And even then, I am not sure that they would to do the two separately. They would more likely start offering full vehicle leases a few years before they really wanted to. As long as demand holds up and the battery performs as expected, GM will only sell a compete vehicle, battery included.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:54 pm)Edit died thanks to MSN Live Messenger, but here’s another citation of the 1,175 battery weight, found in a government PDF file. See battery section:
http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/genmot.pdf
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:55 pm)Some of us prefer to have gas, maintenance and insurance as our only payments. Battery leasing has been touted as the new analogy to gas payments.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:55 pm)I could live witheither option. If they show me the numbers, I can figure out what works for me.
If they really have the cost of a replacement battery figured into the price of each Volt, which I doubt, maybe leasing could be a way to not have to do that.
I agree with RB that it might be one way to deal with the 1st generation battery risk, although I think that the track record of the Prius has minimized that concern in the minds of many consumers. I know that it’s a different battery technology, but still it is a comfort that it has been essentially a non-problem with the Prius.
My question on leases is always the same. “What’s the APR?” They really don’t want to say, but they have to in the end. Usually, that puts an end to the lease option, LOL.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:57 pm)I remember Ed Peper came up through Cadillac, so it seems that after some “training” at Chevrolet he has gone home again
Thank you.
Aug 5th, 2009 (2:58 pm)Yeah, I can see all the smiling faces in the showroom now. Glee turns to gloom. And there will be salesmen and customers who fall into your category or stereotype.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:00 pm)I’m not sure what people mean by plug-in-ready,
lol, I don’t think GM knows either. They run around that question everytime. They seem to be stuck on rolling out to “Plug-in-ready” locations but wont precisely define what is or isn’t.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:02 pm)My ? = Scaled down.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:03 pm)Ditto! Tag did you start me on this ditto reply thing?
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:03 pm)GMAC was rescued by the feds (who injected big $ and made GMAC into a bank despite it not meeting various conditions).
So GMAC is back up and running.
They also have taken over the Chrysler leasing.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:04 pm)#41 Ken, Great thought, but here is another.
Everytime you buy petroleum fuel you increase the possibility of you or someone you know having to fight for it. (war). What can you afford to keep others safe from war. I don’t ever want my children going to war. Or yours.
I’m going to buy the first electric I can afford.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:05 pm)OK, here’s a link: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kewl
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:08 pm)Although I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Prius, I can’t imagine someone trading in a Volt to acquire a Prius. If that turns out to be the reality, even *I* might not want the Volt. Come to think of it though, some people turn in really great vehicles (from which our family has benefited). I’d just totally love the idea of our first new car being that cutting edge Volt. It may have to be Gen II or even Gen III, but God willing, I’ll live long enough to mark ” buy a new car” off my bucket list (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:10 pm)jeffre,
Yep, Ditto.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:13 pm)In my opinion, GM can sell every one of the first year’s production Volts at $40,000 without any real trouble. If they can manage to shave $3,000 to $5,000 off the second year’s production, they can probably sell those as well. The problem becomes more acute in the third year of production when volumes will be much higher and most of the early adopters will have become Volt owners. At that time GM will need to offer something to get customers in new Volts. Could be further price cuts (and should be). Could be offering leasing the full vehicle along with purchasing the full vehicle. Maybe another thing or two I can’t seem to get a handle on right this moment. I don’t see any real problems selling all of the production Volts for year one and two.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:15 pm)I meant a link to the PORK (and you knew that too)(lol).
Wow, Biden with 2+ Bil and Obama with 2+Bil in handouts. I hope it’s the same money (but the Obama money was in Indiana, not Michigan). At least Obama’s was going toward electricity R&D for transportation.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:17 pm)Wait a minute. Are you telling me that you have to buy that 10/150K Drivetrain Warranty?
lol….
Ok, that tells you how long it’s been since I bought a new car.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:18 pm)Sounds like the commercial with the kids being duped by the “fine-print”. GM definitely doesn’t need that.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Leasing a car doesn’t make sense for some one who can’t even afford a car with a battery. A car lease generally makes sense economically v. a sale for;
1) some one who can write the lease off for tax purposes,
2) some one that keeps cars for a short time and is a horrible negotiator for selling / trading in the old car,
3) some one rich enough to pay for the convenience of avoiding number two above.
It seems like leasing the battery for someone who cant afford it would be compounding their financial mistakes. And a lease makes sense then mainly for someone anticipating technlogical changes and wanting to take advantage of them, without being stuck with a battery that no one wants because they are rarely replaced, much like Prius batteries.
Prius batteries are piling up at junk yards and rarely sold new by dealers. With no market for used batteries anticipated, someone wanting to upgrade has a choice of junking a nearly new and expensive battery or buying a brand new high tech battery for a ten year old out of warranty car.
A term lease for batteries would allow an option to get that new and improved battery somewhere in between the extreme choices above for any one that craves, or has some use for, the newest tech.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:26 pm)This is one of those unanswerable questions that will only be answered sometime in the future. Both companies can test and speculate as to how long their battery will last, but the real-world experience of everyday drivers will sometimes come up and bite them in the “you know where”.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:26 pm)Agreed, price is the stickler, BUT the sheer volume of vehicle that will need to be put on the road is enormous if we expect to see even a modest reduction in foreign oil. We’re talking tens of millions of Volts (or other EREV’s/BEV’s). That will take time.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:27 pm)What’s to skirt in that question? Seems pretty obvious, or I’m missing something (as usual).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:29 pm)Seems like a good idea to me. Let’s get the Cruze out to market as early next year as possible. Same for any other fuel efficient vehicle that was delayed. And how about the Saturn Vue Plug-in. Get it into production next year. It was supposed to be on the market by now anyway.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:31 pm)I does seem like a good market for LG Chem to go into at some point. There should be a growing market for home batteries for storing home generated power.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:35 pm)Wow, that’s the kind of article that Statik would chew up and spit out. Come on statik, help us out here. What he really say?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:37 pm)Agreed.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:39 pm)You will never be able to justiify the Volt by looking at costs. If you compare a Honda Insight at $20k vs a Volt at $40k, its simply not ever going to make up for that extra initial cost. Even if gas was $10 a gallon and electricity was free for the life of both cars.
People want the Vot for a variety of reasons, but saving money is not one of them.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:40 pm)The use of used Volt batteries is being seen by electric utilities as a primo way to level power in large buildings. I doubt that they’ll end up in a landfill. They will find a good home (commercial or otherwise).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:41 pm)Ken 41… Look at the car buying experience as a marriage.
You make a choice and live with it ‘for better or for worse’. It is what you will see each day as you walk to your workplace parking lot. It may be comfortable and pleasant to be around. Or fall short of what you wanted. It belongs to you and is forever associated to you. It is what motivates you to work overtime. It’s fun to drive during the day and smooth and quiet at night. You wish you had more time to be with it.
circle one:
A> Prius
B> Yaris
C> Versa
D> Volt
=D~
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:42 pm)Why not take an EREV Orlando and use it as the basis for an EREV Orlando pick-uo. It would be a “mini-truck” that would meet the requirements of a lot of people. We don’t all need Ford F-150 trucks.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:47 pm)We should certainly hope so.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:48 pm)Felix Kramer of Calcars.ord has a good summary of the govt funds (being matched by private funds) at his (Kramer’s) site under “news archive”.
I was wrong to call them R&D, since they are apparently for “implementation”.
The program is known as “Recovery Act Funding Opportunity
DE-FOA-0000026 Electric Drive Vehicle Battery and Component
Manufacturing Initiative. Still to be announced are “Transportation
Electrification” and “Clean Cities FY09 Petroleum Reduction
Technologies Projects for the Transportation Sector”
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:49 pm)Yeah, i’m gettin that. My pieceof sh|t 2002 Ford Explorer needs another Tranny rebuild so I need a new car. I need to figure out what I am going to buy in the Volt interim.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:49 pm)Yes, its a convienence that you pay a premium for if you choose to go that route. But it is still a horrible waste of money over buying a similar car. All you have to do is work out the numbers both ways to see the actual amount you will lose with a lease. Leases were created as a financial instrument to make extra income for the manufacturers/dealers, not for the customers’ benefit.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:51 pm)“Look at the car buying experience as a marriage. “
Then can I trade my Wife in for a newer model?
YEEEEhaaaaWWWWWW!!!!!
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:52 pm)If GM would pay all vehicle maintenance cost for the Volt for those leasing the battery, it might be something to look at. But the devil is in the details once again. No one knows what GM is going to do yet or how they would formulate a battery lease contract if they were to offer one. We are left with our number one activity – speculation.
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:53 pm)Nuf ‘ said
=D~
Aug 5th, 2009 (3:54 pm)You forgto option “D”
D> TraderIn!!!
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:08 pm)“Prius batteries are piling up at junk yards”
[irony] Those things are chock-full of toxic Nickel. Seems like something needs to be done about junked NiMH batteries for environmental reasons. Maybe the govt should offer a buy-back program or something. [/irony]
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:10 pm)If nothing else, they’ll be recycled for the Lithium.
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:12 pm)No, our economy will not collapse just because we are still using petroleum products. Yes, the cost of doing so is heavy now and will grow even heavier in the future. I don’t remember at what price per gallon the economy will collapse at, but it is no where near $4.00 per gallon. If the price of gas climbs slowly, like it is doing now, people will adapt to it and will not be as upset as they were last summer. No one will be happy with $4.00 gas, but it is probably coming. But a collapsing economy, now you are being naive.
+1
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:13 pm)In addition to these, you also need a functioning economy; not one overwhelmingly burdened with government-invoked debt.
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:16 pm)Not even a good comparison even though I love my two Honda cars.
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:22 pm)Most dealers (especially Japanese auto dealers) will carry mostly top of the line or near top of the line models. Especially Toyota Prius dealers. They will have one or two lower end models come in a couple of times a month, but they really want to sell you that top of the line model. That is where they make a lot of extra money. It is just marketing 109.
I might suggest for you to try a new Malibu with 4 cylinder and 6-speed AT. If you can find one. Should be a good mileage car and provide a lot of room and comfort for several years. The Ford Fusion Hybrid would be good. Cost a lot more though. Lots of things to consider when buying a “gap car”.
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:24 pm)My ‘bridge’ car is a Honda Fit.
The salesman wanted badly to show me an Insight, but I declined.
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:32 pm)I don’t disagree that we need to move on health care. We have been trying to develop a comprehensive energy policy since the mid-1970′s and still don’t have one because of politics and lobbying.
In my opinion we are better off with no changes to our health care system rather than to rush into what is presently being proposed in congress. Obama is on record in 2003 and again in 2007 saying he was in favor of a one-payer system and that it would take 10, 15 or 20 years to eliminate employer sponsored health care coverage.
Now, before all of you jump down my throat, just wait a moment. I would like to see a “blue ribbon” commission to study our health care system and to make recommendations to the congress. I am not in favor of any of the proposed plans in congress as they now exist. We are rushing into something without trying to understand what is being passed. No one in the administration, congress, the media or the public knows what all is contained in those different bills. Plus, the republicans have been completely shut-out on any consideration of their bills or amendments How is that helpful. They have some damn good proposals. The democrats seem hell-bent to take us to a socialism one-payer health care system even though no one can find one any where in the world where it is successful in cutting cost and giving universal health care to citizens of all ages. IMO.
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:35 pm)The better question is, what constitutes a “Failure” to where the batt pack needs to be changed out?
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:42 pm)Pumped hydro is great when two storage areas with a sufficient height differential exist or can be created at a reasonable price. Here in Florida is not a practical option.
Keith has put a twist on something I’ve also suggested in the past. The viability of utility companies getting involved in the battery ownership or leasing for the Volt may not be able to be worked out because of the battery size and the EREV architecture. It starts to make a little more sense with larger battery BEVs. The way I see it being addressed (if they can make business sense out of it), is with a battery lease that either the utility agrees to residual buyout a certain price and minimum remaining KWh capacity. Perhaps the Utility might also be willing to participate as the leasing company with a similar end of lease scenario. If you price out a 12KWh battery, you will find that they cost a LOT.Battery prices will most likely be coming down in the future, but that is an unknown and utilities have to plan pretty far in advance for their power needs. I would be surprised if utilities do not get involved at some level with the secondhand plug-in EV battery market.
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:54 pm)Indeed and I’m sure the whole car will ultimately be offered for sale and lease (perhaps not the first year for a lease). The real question is whether the full rebate applies if the car is sold and the battery is leased and if a business case can be made to do this. IMO, it is a no-brainer for BEVs but gets a little more complex and less meaningful for smaller battery EREVs. I would like to see the utilities or “storage farms” get involved with the residual value of the batteries. X value for Y remaining capacity written into the lease. This would effectively lower the monthly cost of the lease.
Aug 5th, 2009 (4:59 pm)I wouldn’t worry too much about the EV1. That deal was a whole other animal. They have committed to too high a qty to do that. The market is mostly driving the show this time and car manufacturers are all in. The EV1 was not designed to be mass produced. It was designed to prove a point and it was DOA the instant CARB changed the rules.
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:01 pm)Agreed
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:10 pm)The Eye has gone out in Mordor
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:18 pm)Actually it is even more like the commercial where the guy is taking a scuba class and finds he has no air when he is underwater. Air is extra the instructor explains.
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:27 pm)They also seem unwilling to separate out there best path to market and this quasi-goverment GM position she is in. Only once the initial market demand from people with plugs at home is met will it start to matter for the Volt and other Voltecs. Seems to me, GM can continue to lobby governments (local, state, and federal) and utilities to get plug-in ready while releasing the Volt nationwide. The best impetus for change to infrastructure will be Volts on the road.
GM seems awfully confused about this issue to me, unless it is code for “we really need the PZEV credits in the CARB states so they will be getting the first Volts.”
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:30 pm)Nissan will also be allowing 70-80% of the battery capacity to be used.
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:34 pm)Maybe a new vehicle by year 5, the Volt II with exactly the features that were proven popular by gen I & II, and no more, 10 to 12% less battery capacity – the current 16 kWh capacity is slightly over engineered to agressively push out pack obsolescence, concessions / price reductions from suppliers ie electronics vs. old hydraulic systems and heat pumps vs. using ICE waste heat.
A boatload of proprietary knowledge to engineer costs down and ramping up for savings at scale, and the expected lighter, smaller, less expensive battery packs that are becoming incrementally available from technology and manufacturing advances.
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:35 pm)I must have missed that one, but it sounds about right.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:48 pm)Yes, absolutely a good idea for Cruze and one or two select others.
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:52 pm)This from Felix Kramer’s summary of the funds spoken of above:
” Deployment funds will put on the road 5,000 Nissan EVs, 220
Chrysler PHEV pickups and minivans, 378 trucks and shuttle buses by companies working with South Coast Air Quality Management District, 400 Navistar EV delivery trucks, 500 Chevy Volts for consumers and 125 for utilities, and 130 Ford Escape PHEVs.
(bold added)
Looks like a bunch of Volts coming out on our dime.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:57 pm)There is also a period of signicant financial risk to buying a car from when you first drive a car off of the lot until you have also gotten some value out if by driving. If you have an accident totalling the car in the initial stages of ownership the replacement value is significantly less than the purchase price. Leasees don’t have this risk.
Aug 5th, 2009 (5:58 pm)never thought of that… if GM can just shrink the “T” so it doesn’t take away a passenger seat, I think they may have a better long-term solution than flat battery packs.
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:10 pm)Isn’t that saying reversed?
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:23 pm)Battery makers will not work with the DIY market directly due to the scale required to make fab facilities feasible and their OEM committments. There may be wholesalers, distributers, importers or other intermediaries willing to fill the need. That does not get you a GM pack though, just the commodity cells.
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:29 pm)Yes, its a convienence that you pay a premium for if you choose to go that route. But it is still a horrible waste of money over buying a similar car.
________________________________
Absolutely agree!
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:31 pm)Remind me not to get on a treadmill when you’re in the room!!!
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:32 pm)Four or five states get 220V charging stations – 12,500 of them. Naturally, PA isn’t included.
It would make sense that the car companies saw this coming. That and the govt purchase of the vehicles themselves – 500 Volts for consumers and 125 for utilities:
“Deployment funds will put on the road 5,000 Nissan EVs, 220
Chrysler PHEV pickups and minivans, 378 trucks and shuttle buses by companies working with South Coast Air Quality Management District, 400 Navistar EV delivery trucks, 500 Chevy Volts for consumers and 125 for utilities, and 130 Ford Escape PHEVs.”
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:36 pm)I’d also love to know where the 500 “consumer Volts” are going from the announcement today!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:37 pm)my 2 cents opinion
For fleet & commercial cars: option between buy or lease the battery pack, may the fiscal treatment for leasing advantageous for cies, compared to personal use?
For personal use: buy or lease your Volt, batteries included.
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:39 pm)Captain ;
OFF TOPIC
Did you get any answers back from the Electric Truck site I sent you ?
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:40 pm)Which is the exact reason that I as a consumer would consider leasing it.
This doesn’t apply to normal cars, though — I know what the used car market looks like for a Ford Ranger, and I think I’ve got a pretty good idea what it will look like in 5-10 years.
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:41 pm)That means at 10 years when I do need a new battery, I may pay a max of $4000.00 for it, most likely less. Let’s see 4000/10 years – $400.00 a year plus electricity – I’m still way ahead over driving my SUV on gasoline, especially over a 10 year period.
__________________________
When will I need a new battery. When I don’t like the old one, when my EPA USO6 is 23.5 miles, when I can only use gas because the battery pack holds zero charge?
Just because I don’t like leases doesn’t mean my neighbor won’t want to replace his leased Volt battery every three years. He could even have a 9 kWh battery instead of my 16 kWh battery and get long just fine for the 3 years he had it.
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:42 pm)Here;s a link to the press release about the $ discussed today by Obama/Biden, et.al.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/24-Billion-in-Grants-to-Accelerate-the-Manufacturing-and-Deployment-of-the-Next-Generation-of-US-Batteries-and-Electric-Vehicles/
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:44 pm)All this talk of leasing the battery/not leasing the battery is moot.
If you are not interested in leasing the battery don’t: buy the car.
If you want to lease the battery then do that: BY LEASING THE CAR.
All this drama. You people are too much!
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:47 pm)Cool map of WHERE this money is going is here:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/recovery/pdfs/battery_awardee_map.pdf
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:48 pm)One guy’s typical commute range and performance is the next guys “give me my money back GM for this peice of crap failure of a battery.”
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:53 pm)The 1970′s, another energy cost shock, busting the economy meltdown for tag to ponder?
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:54 pm)List of who gets what is here:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/recovery/pdfs/battery_awardee_list.pdf
30.5 million for the 625 Volts (500 consumer and 125 for utilities. It’s on the second page of the summary.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:57 pm)Hey, who is going to reverse-engineer all those connectors in the picture.
The two red-capped couplings are obviously for liquid cooling, and the black connector with the red warning label looks like the main power, but what about the others?
Aug 5th, 2009 (6:58 pm)Yeah, it’s pretty sweet when you have printing press in the back of the house.
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:01 pm)Oh, I agree. But you’re still losing a lot less money total with the Volt with gas at $10.00 than you would be at $2.00 a gallon.
-1
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:03 pm)After reading a number of the posts here it is very easy to see that many of you haven’t a clue about much of anything and only post here because you can .
It also is obvious that many of you have never experienced purchasing a new car or done any leasing but still you want to shoot off your mouth and show how little you know .
Also by the language displayed here some of you will never earn enough money to ever be able to earn enough money to ever afford anything that that costs over $10, 000.00 but you think that others want to see or hear your worthless opinions .
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:03 pm)Neat in the short run, sucks in the long run.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS!
Aug 5th, 2009 (7:28 pm)Single payer works well in Canada, Britain, Europe, Japan, and Australia. At least it does according to anyone who actually has single payer that I’ve talked to. Statistically, they all spend less and have better outcomes.
That said, I agree with you about the republican amendments. I want to a)reform medical malpractice liability (cap payments for punitive demages, and/or require arbitration for all claims), b)simplify the paperwork needed to appy for medicare, and c)tax junk food. Reforming our entire agricultural system would probably also help.
Aug 5th, 2009 (11:05 pm)LOL
Aug 6th, 2009 (12:23 am)I think GM should sell it both ways. This is not uncommon with other products, especially tech. For example you can lease server space or buy it for a variety of products.
I could see a City, such as say San Jose, which has several Prius vehicles, buying the car but leasing the batteries. That would be very typical for fleet purchases, such as governments, companies, taxis, et al. And some people would do the same if they had the option.
But I agree the majority of private owners wouldnot seriously consider the battery unit lease and would simply purchase.
Aug 6th, 2009 (2:57 am)This is why I want a Volt in Australia.
Nissan can stick there battery leasing where the sun don’t shine
Thank you very much!
Aug 6th, 2009 (5:38 am)Years ago it was common knowledge that a Chrysler transmission was probably going to die before 100,000 miles and people still bought the cars. If GM gives us a 150,000 mile warranty on the battery, that is much better than any other warranty we get right now. They should sell the whole car, or lease the whole car, one or the other.
Aug 6th, 2009 (6:13 am)Phenominal, so ours are free!
White, please.
Aug 6th, 2009 (6:21 am)Wtf…WTF! We loaned Nissan $1.6B to build them here and now we’re gonna overpay for 5000 of them and at the same time only 625 Volts?
Aug 6th, 2009 (6:43 am)Those are excellent starts and essential to any healthcare cost reduction strategy. Equally important but much more difficult to tackle is having health insurance actually become “insurance” again, instead incredibly poorly performing group buying plans. Cash purchases should be required by law to be offered at the lowest price level charged by a provider. No more legalized scam where the hospital charges $10,000 retail and $4,000 to the insurance company while you pay 20% coinsurance on the $10k. Let me pay cash for the expenses I can afford and insure against the ones I can’t. This is what HSA plans were supposed to do and have done to a small extent, but it is way too cumbersome putting the insurer in the middle of all transactions. A cash tranaction is by far the cheapest to trasact without all of the insurer’s paperwork and processing, so it should be the cheapest to the consumer.
Aug 6th, 2009 (8:45 am)koz,
ANY color suits me!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS!
Aug 6th, 2009 (8:46 am)PDNFTT
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS!
Aug 6th, 2009 (8:50 am)koz
It sure looks like a huge inequity, and I agree that it stinks. Someone in the press will point it out (I hope). Or maybe someone here will ask at “the other gm site”.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS!
Aug 6th, 2009 (4:55 pm)Notice the left / right orange electrical lines at the top of the battery.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, these may manage energy to the front half / back half of the T battery. Does this system use the first half of the battery in “work” mode while the second half is being managed? Braking re gen combining with ICE generator over current to recharge the T battery half that is in “rest” mode?
The half which is in “work” mode giving it’s 15 miles of service. Then going into “rest” mode as the other resumes the power duties? This is a great way keep a handle on temperature control. And could extend the effective range of the vehicle past 400 miles.
As battery technology doubles and then redoubles the system will be much less in need of ICE support.
=D~
Aug 6th, 2009 (6:04 pm)[...] Image Credit: Volt battery pack via GM-Volt.com [...]
Aug 6th, 2009 (6:30 pm)The reason I mention the rest/work two mode EREV system is that I have worked with industrial equipment which couldn’t handle a 24/7 work load. The way we got around this is two have two systems on the ready. One doing all of the work. The other down for cooling and maintenance (if needed). These would cycle back and forth several times a day. We were able to lean on using one of the two systems for 24 hours straight when the other half went down for a serious repair.
Note: We have heard NGMCO mention “form/function” over and over again. This means they have found a formula which they like and are bent on using it wherever possible. What buzz word has NGMCO been repeating these last two years. The answer: two mode.
=D~
Aug 6th, 2009 (6:53 pm)wait, wait…don’t count me out…I was only kidding
any color, any place, anytime
Aug 6th, 2009 (6:55 pm)Sorry Koz, it was a limited time offer. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!!!***********NPNS!
Aug 6th, 2009 (7:45 pm)[...] Image Credit: Volt battery pack via GM-Volt.com [...]
Aug 6th, 2009 (7:45 pm)[...] Image Credit: Volt battery pack via GM-Volt.com [...]
Aug 6th, 2009 (7:54 pm)[...] Image Credit: Volt battery pack via GM-Volt.com [...]
Aug 6th, 2009 (8:07 pm)[...] Image Credit: Volt battery pack via GM-Volt.com [...]
Aug 6th, 2009 (8:31 pm)[...] Image Credit: Volt battery pack via GM-Volt.com [...]
Aug 6th, 2009 (11:59 pm)[...] Image Credit: Volt battery pack via GM-Volt.com [...]
Aug 21st, 2009 (2:32 pm)Actually in some areas of the northwestern US, storage of hydro generated electricity is a big deal because of minimal legal stream flow requirements. If rivers and streams must be at minimal flows to maintain them, then a nice flow for boating, habitat maintenance and fishing would make a picturesque scene, but interms of energy would be a complete waste at 2:00 am on a Saturday morning.
In situations like that something economical(?) could store much of a homes or towns daily electricicity needs during off hours, instead of unused power literarelly just running downstream.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:52 pm)The 2 orange colored connectors up top are for the manual disconnect safety levers used to help isolate the HV source during service/repair. They are made up of 2 pairs of connections. The larger pair connect strategically to points in the pack’s + to – to + (series wired) module to module bus connections and the pair of smaller 2 wire orange connectors under the larger terminals are part of what’s called the HV Interlock circuit. It’s a secondary safety system that consists of a current monitored series circuit that routes through various “access” covers and elements that further act to improve safety from unintentional exposure to the HV source.
The LARGE black connector in the middle with the hefty terminal technology (and the warning label) is the MAIN HV Source output to the underhood power electronics (inverter, converter etc)
The 3 black connectors near the bottom connect the pack’s electronic management system to the rest of the vehicle- 12V/, ground, various hardwired I/O, and CAN network.
And yes, the 2 quick-connect fittings shown temporarily capped are part of the pack’s cooling system
HTH
WopOnTour