Aug 01

Nissan LEAF Pure Electric Car Unveiled

 

Nissan has opened a new chapter in its ambitious plans to be a global leader in pure electric zero emissions vehicles.

At their new headquarters in Japan on Sunday August 2nd, the Nissan LEAF pure electric car was unveiled.

The car is a compact or C-class sedan with distinctive and special styling.  It is a 5 door hatch with seating for 5, and utilizes unique LED headlamps that use 10% as much energy as traditional headlamps.  The lights are also designed to slice the wind and direct it away from the side mirrors to improve aerodynamics.

The vehicle uses Nissan/NEC proprietary large format laminate batteries that total 24 kwh.  They power an 80 kw/280 Nm torque electric motor that gives the car a top speed of 90 MPH.  Charging is through a port on the front hood and takes 8 hours at 220 though is capable of 80% in 30 minute fast charging where available.

The car also has a wireless IT system that connects it to a global monitoring center 24 hours per day.

“Nissan LEAF is a tremendous accomplishment – one in which all Nissan employees can take great pride,” said Nissan President and CEO Carlos Ghosn. “We have been working tirelessly to make this day a reality – the unveiling of a real-world car that has zero – not simply reduced – emissions. It’s the first step in what is sure to be an exciting journey – for people all over the world, for Nissan and for the industry.”

Nissan plans to begin selling the car in the selected US markets in late 2010 and plans to build 50,000 in its first year of production.

Pricing has not been announced, but Nissan claims it will be comparable to a well-equipped gas powered C class sedan.

Nissan is hoping this car will serve as a realistic everyday car that will sere people’s needs without producing emissions.  It will of course like any limited range EV not be practical for all uses though Nissan claims this range will satisfy 70% of global and 98% of US drivers daily needs.

NISSAN LEAF NISSAN LEAF NISSAN LEAF NISSAN LEAF NISSAN LEAF NISSAN LEAF

nissan-leafport

This entry was posted on Saturday, August 1st, 2009 at 9:25 pm and is filed under BEV, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 332


  1. 1
    vincent

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (9:30 pm)

    Kinda Funky looking…”Fugly”
    I still don’t get why we gave them a grant….and why cash for clunkers isn’t only for GM, Chrysler and Ford. Bugs the Sheet outa me.


  2. 2
    Bruce

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (9:31 pm)

    If that’s under $30k it will be an absolute slam dunk. This is the first mass produced BEV the world has been waiting for.


  3. 3
    EVNow

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (9:32 pm)

  4. 4
    statik

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    statik
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    Aug 1st, 2009 (9:40 pm)

    You really have to take any potential offering from Nissan seriously, not necessarily because they have any ‘special’ talents, but they do have big battery capacity coming online (50,000) next year, and over 150,000 through the next.


  5. 5
    EVNow

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (9:48 pm)

    To my question on price NissanEVs tweeted me “All we can say for now is that the plan is to price it in the range of a typical family sedan.”

    Also, “Nissan’s CEO, Carlos Ghosn, says the LEAF is, totally neutral to the environment and cost of ownership will be comparable to a mid-size car”.

    I interpret that as no more than $30K – which would be low to mid 20s after rebates.


  6. 6
    statik

     

    statik
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    Aug 1st, 2009 (9:52 pm)

    I have to say I like the more conservative range given 100 miles (US LA4 mode) on a 24 kWh pack, and that thing looks pretty aerodynamic (although hard to tell)..diminensions are fairly hefty though (69wx61h)


  7. 7
    statik

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (9:58 pm)

    Well-equipped, family sedan/C Class to Nissan likely means something along the line of the Maxima family to me. Although the Sentra runs on something called the Nissan C platform, I can’t imagine price competitiveness with that, lol. (Sentra’s max out under 20K).

    FYI Maxima trim levels start right at $30,000 and move up to the sport package at $35,000 (they do offer a sport + premium at $36k). The most popular is the 3.5 SV, starting at $32,860.


  8. 8
    Peder

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:00 pm)

    had online chat through the leaf website,

    The USA Model will be sold with battery. They was earlier talk via the CEO of leasing the battery seperatly. That is goon nes that it will include the battery.

    Also said 2010, fleets first followed closly by consumers.

    This is looking very exciting!
    Cheers
    Peder


  9. 9
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:01 pm)

    Just got another tweet “It will be on the road in some markets in 2010 – we hope to have pre-ordering available online in the future.”.

    Volt or Leaf ?! I’m leaning towards Leaf …. it would ensure oil-free weekends too.


  10. 10
    Mark Z

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:03 pm)

    It’s not a design I would be happy with. The back end is not attractive. I will wait for VOLT with E-REV and Tesla model S with 300 mile range.

    How long before the crash ratings are available?


  11. 11
    EVNow

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:05 pm)

    Yes could be $35K. That would be high 20s after rebate.
    http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/07/nissan-prepares-to-launch-its-ev-provides-test-drives-in-mule-as-sample.html


    Word also is that the retail price of the EV will put it in Altima territory. Looking at the high end of the Altima lineup and adding a bit for the electic drivetrain and batteries, that would be somewhere in the mid $30,000s.


  12. 12
    jason M. Hendler

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:07 pm)

    I knew the Japanese weren’t sitting still. I wonder if they are withholding the pricing info until they are certain that they can make batteries cheap enough. Could they be buying market share, selling the vehicles at a loss?

    The vehicle still doesn’t overcome range anxiety, as there aren’t any rapid recharge stations around.

    Still, the US automakers must move quickly or they will not exist in 2015.


  13. 13
    eightzero

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:13 pm)

    First of the Volt or Leaf that becomes available for $30k or under will get a sale from me.


  14. 14
    statik

     

    statik
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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:15 pm)

    Re: EVNow and hearing it will be priced at the Altima level
    ———————–
    (EDIT: You edited around your post some…so my comments seem a bit skewed/unrelated, but I’m going to leave them ‘as is’ because I only have like 5 seconds of edit time, lol)

    That would be great, but is that possible?

    They start at $19,900 and top out on the 3.5/well-equipped, starting at $26,390. I mean, this is a 24 kWh battery too. If they could market a EV at the price in the US in 2010, I think the universe impodes. I mean, post rebate you would be looking at $19,000. I just can’t reconcile that math…at best I can stretch my brain out to believe $35-$36K but even that feels persnicky.

    Unless they mean ‘around’ as in, a few thousand more, like $29,000…and that also cooks/accounts the rebate in, so again, it is starting around 35-36K


  15. 15
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:16 pm)

    West coast will have rapid charging stations.


  16. 16
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:19 pm)

    West coast cities are committing to installing chargers. Hope the west coast corridor will get charged up ….


  17. 17
    carcus1

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:21 pm)

    Now we’re talking.

    I’m hoping that pricing hint means under $30k as well. If Nissan is serious about volume sales (and they appear to be) then I think they’ll have to keep it safely under 30 (after rebates).


  18. 18
    statik

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:21 pm)

    Indeed! No battery leasing…or pricey PBP nonesense.


  19. 19
    statik

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:24 pm)

    Wow, they announce it today, and they are already saying stuff like “we hope to have pre-ordering online in the future” Up until now, we really haven’t got even a whiff of anything talking about taking pre-orders.

    ‘Hope to” is still a long way from “you can,” but I don’t mind that kind of talk at all…especially since this vehicle fits my own personal criteria of “any EV I can buy with at least 4 seats that I can service within its electric range”

    Sound like Nissan is threatening to actually take orders…and that is something we have not heard from anyone state side yet.


  20. 20
    Jim I

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:24 pm)

    100 miles and then you get to stop, is just not enough………..

    Make my Volt sky blue metallic with a black center console and the upgrade to the LTZ trim package…………….

    :-)


  21. 21
    Peder

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:25 pm)

    This on the leaf page, so it looks like the battery Q is still up in the air. I’m guessing that a 24kw battery pack is in the 15k to 20 k range.

    Hope I am wrong and Nissan has made a huge price breakthrough on battery cost but……?

    34 minutes ago – Asked by @JoseFreireQ: Will the price include the battery pack? Or will there be an option to rent/lease the battery pack?

    A: Leasing vs. buying the battery isn’t ironed out yet. Looking at which options best meet our customers’ needs.


  22. 22
    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:28 pm)

    I first heard rumors of the electric Nissan car in November of 2008. While attending the L.A. Auto show (Nov 22, 2008) and asked Nissan directly.

    “Do you have any electric cars?”. The answer was a flat, “No”.

    There was another rumor floating around concerning Nissan and their electric ambitions. This being a network of charging stations located in Northern California.

    This adds up being that Northern California is very much a green vehicle loving society and that the day temperatures stay below 70 degrees. Perfect for battery maintenance.

    There is that date again, 2010. Seems the world will be flooded with electric vehicles within 16 months.

    =D~


  23. 23
    Anthony BC

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:38 pm)

    As Sean would say…. “And the game is on!”

    ONLINE pre-orders soon! Way to go Nissan! Keep them @ $30,000!

    GO EV !!!


  24. 24
    Luke

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:43 pm)

    I quite like the looks! I just hope you can put a removable roof-rack on there. But, then again, I like the looks of the Prius and pretty-much everything made by Subaru — so there’s no accounting for taste, I guess. :-)

    More range would be nice, of course, but it doesn’t make a big difference for my purposes until it’s 350 miles or so.

    Competition means that I win — between the Volt, plug-in Prius, plug-in Vue, and this Nissan Leaf, one of these things ought to work out.


  25. 25
    Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:46 pm)

    Still awaiting Toyota’s EREV announcement… (the “new and improved” Prius… You know it’s coming ;>)


  26. 26
    statik

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:47 pm)

    Best day ever (for us anyway) if someone can price a 5 seat car under 30K pre-rebate with a 24 kWh pack right out of the gate next year.


  27. 27
    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (10:57 pm)

    Here’s food for thought. Just dawned on me.

    I own stock in a company that distributes electric power. Last month they announced that they had reactivated two Northern California natural gas powered electric stations.

    Humm… This picture is starting to piece together.

    =D~


  28. 28
    Keith

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:02 pm)

    Your opinion Jim , to me 100 miles a week is more than I ever travel in a week and a car like this would suit me perfect . I would only have to charge it up on Saturday or Sunday night and I am good for the whole week .
    With the Volt I would have to charge it up two or three times a week if I wanted to go completely to electric power .


  29. 29
    Tray

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:03 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  30. 30
    statik

     

    statik
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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:06 pm)

    Further to Nissan’s press release, and just general diggin around…and to Lyle saying here it will be priced as a well equipped C Class/compact. Just looking over what Nissan’s other passenger vehicles actually are classed as:

    Maxima: Full size
    Altima: Mid Size
    Sentra: Compact
    —-
    Nissan does say ‘affordable pricing’ in their official press release, and they also say:

    “Pricing details will be announced closer to start of sales in late 2010; however, the company expects the car to be competitively priced in the range of a well-equipped C-segment vehicle. Additionally, Nissan LEAF is expected to qualify for an array of significant local, regional and national tax breaks and incentives in markets around the world”

    I don’t get it, does C-Class really mean well-equipped Sentra to them, or are they crossed up somehow? And they also say ‘additionally’ it is expected to qualify, as in, post pricing structure in the range of a C-segment vehicle.

    I really think someone at Nissan needs to do a little ballparking for us here.


  31. 31
    jdsv

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:07 pm)

    Agreed, I am quite embarrassed for the team that saw this car and said ‘I like the looks of that’. Don’t get me wrong, I’m ALL FOR the electrication of the automobile.. I just don’t want the image moving backwards because of goofy stuff like this.

    I’m not a fan of smiling cars, but many are. However, I think the Insect/Subaru/Robots (animated movie) look is still a bit extreme.

    Also: the endgame of drag is keeping the air close to it’s slip surface (or streaming naturally without split) and not generating turbulence. From this perspective, I sort of understand the thinking in the sloped waste-of-space rear end. Yay engineering. That being said, why the spoiler, and why does it pitch ‘upwards’ from the roofline? They were so close.. either give the space to the car or don’t. Maybe there was a headroom issue, but the middle ground here is still likely a lose-lose. Oh well, there are lots of funky (though useless) edges involved.. I suppose they know better, but I am skeptical – this seems like the product of impasse.

    Good luck, Nissan. NPNS, clown cars included. =D~~~ < :) ~~

    edit: upon further inspection, a top-down view may be more revealing to the true aero functioning of the spoiler. It may be okay, but.. it still looks ugly.


  32. 32
    jdsv

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:14 pm)

    @ Luke:

    ‘I quite like the looks! .. I like the looks of the Prius and pretty-much everything made by Subaru’

    So is there anything that will be able to stop you from hugging the first one of these you see? It is a perfect Prius-Subaru hybrid on happy juice.

    Just remember the Volt still loves you.


  33. 33
    statik

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:19 pm)

    jason M. Hendler Said:

    I knew the Japanese weren’t sitting still. I wonder if they are withholding the pricing info until they are certain that they can make batteries cheap enough. Could they be buying market share, selling the vehicles at a loss? The vehicle still doesn’t overcome range anxiety, as there aren’t any rapid recharge stations around.

    Still, the US automakers must move quickly or they will not exist in 2015.
    ==================
    This press release certainly does nothing to let us peg down a reasonable assumption on pack pricing, if anything it clouds it more. I’m starting to wonder if everybody is all over the map on it. If anyone stands to benefit from scale and building their own, it is Nissan. They are clearly the ‘leader’ in battery production and infrastructure coming online.

    ‘Late’ 2010 has gotten a lot busier in the last few weeks.

    Sidenote: If they are selling them later in 2010, but likely also taking pre-orders, I wonder what that means for timing on actually getting a MSRP out of them. Late spring?


  34. 34
    EVNow

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:23 pm)

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/08/01/2010-nissan-leaf-electric-car-in-person-in-depth-and-u-s-b/

    2010 Nissan Leaf electric car: In person, in depth — and U.S. bound

    30 mile charge in 10 mnts.


  35. 35
    statik

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:25 pm)

    EDIT: moved up into thread line


  36. 36
    Peder

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:26 pm)

    to disclose, I am a Mini-E Driver #183. So I have a bias,

    To me it does not have the “speed car” looks of the Tesla or Fisker or the “fun fast car” look of the Mini-E or the “hot family car” look of the model S or Volt.

    It looks a bit impish and teenager-y (my word)

    Hey Lyle, are you getting better range than 75 miles yet? I average 90-95 in mixed driving.

    Peder


  37. 37
    Dave G

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:27 pm)

    The best thing about this car is the plug port. It looks like they got this right. Notice how it has an outer door and another inner cover with a seal. I’ve been suggesting something like this for the Volt for quite some time.

    But in the end, this is a pure BEV, so sales will be low.


  38. 38
    statik

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:27 pm)

    If Nissan actually delivers/produces this (and they have the packs to do it), and if they can hold anywhere near the price they are hinting at, and with those specs (real world 100 miles on a 24 kWh pack)…I think the I-MiEV just moved down my list of EVs I most prefer to buy if I had a choice (that are also reasonably expected to be made available in 2010/2011).

    …a lot of ifs, I’ll grant you, but yet another automaker has put their ‘toes in the water’ and are threatening to make waves, and that can’t be bad.

    (It is a little odd looking, not sure why EV makers just don’t make the jellybean/Prius knockoff shape and be done with it…we don’t really need the Judge Dredd/neo future styling all the time)


  39. 39
    koz

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:33 pm)

    Probably useless swag but I’m putting it out there regardless:
    @$10k glider
    @$5-7k motor + power electronics
    @15-17k battery

    $30-34k total, so with incentive in place, I’ll go with $34k before and $26.5k after tax rebate (plus interim financing and sales tax increment to keep CJS happy, $27k-ish).

    This car is big enough and nice enough to sell in the US at this price IMO. It will find a nice market in urban multicar households that don’t require long range for both vehicles. This hits that target market pretty well if it debuts in this price range. The only shortcoming is they are about 4kwh light on the battery to be to keep 100 mile range for most of the “rated” life, IMO.


  40. 40
    Tray

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:35 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  41. 41
    James E

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:35 pm)

    I agree…Under 30k pre-rebate and I would put money down on it today. Thei is good news 10 yrs ago this was just a dream.


  42. 42
    carcus1

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:38 pm)

    We may all be surprised at how fast and how far the pricing on BEV’s will fall. There really isn’t much to them compared to an ICE car. Once the new battery factories start churning, prices could move south rapidly.


  43. 43
    koz

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:41 pm)

    80% battery window provides 20kwh available which concurs with Volts energy use for city cycle. This is believable but I do believe they will take a little highway range hit @15%, so I’ll guess 85miles. For “real” world, it will probably be in the 70hwy, 80cty range.


  44. 44
    Sam

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:43 pm)

    Ugliest car ever who would drive that thing


  45. 45
    Dave

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:45 pm)

    Oh my thats really bad


  46. 46
    Larry B

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:51 pm)

    Me too, 100 miles a day is way more than enough for me. Especially with none of the added complexity of an ICE engine. This is really looking like a strong contender.


  47. 47
    Larry B

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:52 pm)

    Someone that is tired of buying gas.


  48. 48
    statik

     

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:53 pm)

    Pretty hard to speculate on sales before you know the price.
    —-
    Just curious, what is low to you? 500/month?

    Is low relative to other cars out there? Or a perception how many Volts we think GM might sell? Or to how many other cars Nissan itself sells?

    For instance, Buick passenger car sales combined for the first six months of the year are 26,000 . Cadillac passenger total was 33,000 for the first half. Even at the low end of the spectrum GM has only sold 11,000 Aveos for the first 6 months of the year.

    GM had 24 active cars listed last month, if you strip out the ‘top 4,’ the remaining 20 sold, on average, 1,883 units…and GM is by far the largest seller in the USA, Nissan is about a third their size.

    Nissan’s Top 5 last month:
    Altima 16,350
    Sentra 5,834
    Versa 5,473
    Maxima 4,560
    Cube 2,137


  49. 49
    Larry B

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:54 pm)

    There is a ton of people that want a pure BEV and have no interest in a EREV. If the price is right, I don’t think you can assume sales will be low.


  50. 50
    statik

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:56 pm)

    I agree the bulk of the price is in the pack, if someone figures out a way to make them ‘on the cheap,’ that is good news for us, as the consumer.


  51. 51
    DonC

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    Aug 1st, 2009 (11:58 pm)

    As I mentioned in the last thread, the range is 100 miles under US LA4, which is the old city standard from the 1960s. Driving in LA today is closer to US06, which means that a good guess would be that a typical driver in LA or Atlanta would get about a 50 mile range in reasonable weather. Drivers who avoided freeways might get 80 miles in city driving in good weather (the current City cycle gives about 20% fewer mpg than US LA4). So the range would be similar to the i-Miev. Bigger pack at 24 kWh, giving you 5-6 more kWh, but it’s a larger vehicle so it more or less nets out to the same range. Some people can live with that, especially for a second or third car used for short trips or commutes. Some can’t.

    It does seem very real though, much more than the i-Miev, which Mitsubishi can’t figure out how to bring to NA. The other advantage for the Nissan is that it looks like you might be able to drive it on the freeway — the i-Miev just seemed a bit small to mix it up with SUVs and trucks going 70 mph. Finally, Nissan has a much better developed dealer network which should make the roll out easier.

    The roll out the cites/states are expected to be San Diego, Tucson, San Francisco, Oregon, Tennessee. Probably most/all of the 2010 sales will be to fleets.

    On balance kudos to Nissan for laying it on the line.


  52. 52
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:00 am)

    Depends on the price. If it’s the previously quoted $22K-$30K before rebates then all bets are off. But that pricing seems highly unlikely.


  53. 53
    Tagamet

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:01 am)

    Statik, you’re getting soft (and maybe drooling a tad). What happened to the service within range and range anxiety issues that were just being used to bump down the Volt today. WIll Nisson have trained centers by the release with this short a test period? (Shrug).
    I AM glad that there will be more choices springing up, but the trade off is the modest time that has been available for the kind of battery challenges thrown at the Volt by GM.
    The 5 passenger part is great, as is the BEV if you’re a risk taker and laid back enough (or medicated) so that the “I hope i have enough juice left in this puppy to get home” is less an issue.
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    PS Night for now.
    LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS


  54. 54
    statik

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:02 am)

    Yeah, that sounds about right to me too.

    I’m pegging the Volt in the low 30s on the highway, and simple math on the pack usage (assuming your 20 kWh) dictates you times that by 2.5, so 75ish sounds reasonable. (assuming again that the Volt and the Leaf have very similar weight/CdAs…which at first glance also seems reasonable)

    I think if it does use 20 kWh of the pack, that the city could hit the 100 miles fairly reliably.


  55. 55
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:03 am)

    In April of this year Nissan said it was aiming for $23K-$30K before rebates.

    http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/under-the-hood-with-nissans-electric-car-5991/

    Seems unlikely unless that lithium gel they’ve cooked up is something special.


  56. 56
    Peder

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:04 am)

    agree.

    in two car families this car will work, one suv for trips and shopping and one electric commuter.

    also agree on it needs a little more batts. both top end power and range are a little compromised. No way this car at 107 horses is going to be similar to a G35. at least not with three or four people in it.

    I’m guessing 0-60 in 9-10 seconds. which is fine for a commuter.

    net under 30k and it will sell well


  57. 57
    DonC

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:09 am)

    I’d agree that you have to take Nissan seriously but not because it has battery capacity. When a major manufacturer makes a big announcement and push like this then you have to believe the pieces are in place whether that is obvious or not.

    This seems like a very big bet. Good for them.


  58. 58
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:11 am)

    The autobloggreen article is estimating a replacement battery pack for the leaf at $10,000.


  59. 59
    statik

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    statik
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:11 am)

    Alright, if that is what is going on, the world makes sense again. A well equipped C-Segment car at Nissan is a Sentra, thats $17-18K. Tack on another 15-20K (as you suggest) and that gets us back to the $32,000-$38,000 range.

    I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread but I just can’t wrap my head around any sticker price under $35,000

    ——————-
    Just curious, where is this leaf page/chat hosted? Do you have a link? I wouldn’t mind checking it out.


  60. 60
    canehdian

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:12 am)

    I’m all for BEV’s (as well as EREV), but I agree, there is more to desire here in terms of the looks department :(


  61. 61
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:14 am)

    My guess is that it’s the real range. They’ve no doubt tested it. I’m not sure it’s “conservative” though. US LA4 is so mild no one uses it any more. Nissan probably thought they needed to find some drive cycle that let them announce a 100 mile range, and outside the silly (by NA standards) Japanese cycles LA4 was about the only one that did.

    A range of 100 miles for a 24 kWh battery pack suggests the Leaf will use 168 wh/mile. Compare that to GM’s claim for the Volt — 200 wh/mile. Seems that GM is being more conservative. Or is that realistic?


  62. 62
    koz

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:27 am)

    I believe they will be able to figure out a way to sell them “on the cheap” before they figure out a way to make them cheaply. I know this pains a lot of people to here it, but a battery lease model with a decent residual value backed up by a utility or an “energy storage provider” gets more butts in BEVs sooner. You can still pay much more up front and assume all of the residual value risks if you want. More choices, more better.

    Buy the car for @$17k and lease the battery for 5yrs for @$170/mo. Oh, and you still get the $7500 tax rebate.


  63. 63
    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:31 am)

    Mark Z: “The back end is not attractive”

    It looks characteristically Citroen to me. I wish I had a better grasp of their models, but a little googling didn’t turn up the Citroen model whose image I have in my head.

    The back end does seem to share a little bit of design family elements with the Nissan Cube, though. (I just saw a Cube for the first time in person yesterday. It’s a lot bigger than I imagined from just seeing the pictures)


  64. 64
    Eric E

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:35 am)

    I am stunned and very impressed. I think Nissan has been underestimated. Everything about this car is well executed:
    The interior is refined and modern, the unique exterior styling has cutting edge X-Gen appeal, the charging bay and indicators exude forethought, and the size is useful and practical.
    Other production EVs we’ve seen lately are either tiny (Th!nk City, iMiev) or impractical (2 seat Tesla, 4 seat Volt) or expensive. (Model S, Fisker Karma, Volt)
    This car puts Nissan in a segment of their own: 5 Passenger, C-Class, zero emission, all electric car that people can afford.
    Like it or not, we’re going to see many of these on the road soon.
    (while driving our Volt)


  65. 65
    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:35 am)

    The headlamps resemble those of a Lotus Elise. And 5-passenger? That is full of win.

    I’m not a fan of the notchback-hatch, but not for the aesthetics. It just looks like a waste of useful space.

    And though the Volt has called “shotgun” on my list of cars that scream WANT, this one is not far behind.


  66. 66
    koz

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:37 am)

    Something not mentioned that often is that the production BEVs (at least the better ones) will indicate approx KWh and range remaining. Drivers who screw up with their battery charge will always have the option to “turtle” and extend the range of their last 2kwh to @20 miles if the choose.


  67. 67
    FelippefromBrazil

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:39 am)

    I dont think the car is gonna be a hit in NA. Americans usually dont like hatch cars. Nissan should develop a sedan version of the Leaf, with a “Prius-like” back for the U.S. market. For the rest of the world markets, this design is fine.


  68. 68
    Zach

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:39 am)

    I’m impressed! The only thing I don’t like, aesthetically speaking, is the head lamps, but I realize they were designed “ugly” to reduce wind resistance.


  69. 69
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:40 am)

    Congrats on the mini-E. Hope you’re enjoying the ride!

    The Leaf isn’t going to have much of a range on the the freeway so it would be counterproductive to have it be a raging screamer that you couldn’t wait to take there.

    The reason Lyle isn’t getting the range you are is that his commute is on the freeway. Whether Nissan will admit it or not, the Leaf is not designed for high speed driving. It’s supposedly a world car, and, with the exception of NA where the distances are great and the pedal frequently goes to the metal, it should work well.


  70. 70
    DonC

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:48 am)

    The connectivity is really very advanced and appears to be quite useful. Quite a step beyond the simple in-car touchscreen. It would be great to have something like that on the Volt but, as Tag says, LJGTWOTR.

    Don’t understand though why the driver isn’t sitting on the right (left) side!


  71. 71
    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:51 am)

    OK… the car I was thinking of with the notched back is the Renault Megane. My bad.

    http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&sa=1&q=renault+megane&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10&start=0


  72. 72
    Peder

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:52 am)

    good stuff.


  73. 73
    Peder

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:01 am)

    Don just to just to compare a bit between the E and the Leaf as far as range.

    The Mini-E has a 35kw pack, usable 28.

    The car is heavy and has a high drag coe.
    range with 2400 miles on the car that I am experiancing is
    freeway 75mph-85mph 75 miles
    frewway 60mph-75mph 85 miles
    mixed city freeway 95 miles
    city 120 miles.

    The mini-e stated a range of 156 city in their media and talked about 100 miles on the freeway and 120 in the city real world. That is fairly close to what I am getting (if I would drive 65 :)

    I think the Leaf will be more aerodynamic but not much lighter than the Mini-E.

    from a 24 kw pack with better aero but a similaar weight I would guess a real world range of

    freeway 75mph-85mph 60 miles
    frewway 60mph-75mph 70 miles
    mixed city freeway 85 miles
    city 100 miles

    just a guess

    It looks like the 24 kw pack weight is 400lbs which squares with the 35kw Mini-Es pack weight being around 600 So I think the energy density is about the same per weight,

    .


  74. 74
    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:04 am)

    FelippefromBrazil: “Nissan should develop a sedan version of the Leaf, with a “Prius-like” back for the U.S. market”

    Wait, what? The Prius *is* a hatchback. Or am I missing something?


  75. 75
    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:11 am)

    In my gas Mini Cooper I’m getting 20-21 mpg. That thing is an aerodynamic sea anchor. That nearly-vertical windshield saves space but it’s a brick wall on the freeway.

    (Though the new generation has a much more efficient engine … I have generation 1 which uses the Chrysler/Rover “Tritec” gas-guzzling engine. It’s a good thing the Mini is so light… er, wait…)


  76. 76
    Eric E

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:16 am)

    Someone who is tired spewing pollution


  77. 77
    Eric E

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:22 am)

    Yo Tag-
    Ok…I think I got most of it figured out but help me with the rest.

    Lets Just Get The Volt _____ On The Road!!*****************_______?


  78. 78
    Ed M

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:45 am)

    Looks pretty close to the car that Homer Simpson designed just needs the glass dome on top. Maybe it looks better in a different color.


  79. 79
    Lurker

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:07 am)

    That is one terribly unattractive machine in any color imaginable.
    100,000 of those on the road will not make a measurable difference in global warming, oil price per barrel or the unfortunate ugly wars fought in the desert countries.

    Those that think it’s nice please do tell what in the world you drive now and your age. It’s got to be the Geritol Crowd with that Hawaiian shirt that shares the Wife’s Eye Glasses and hair cut. That’s so bad on so many levels.


  80. 80
    Greg Simpson

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:11 am)

    Nice looking car. If that was a real world 100 mile range, driving the freeways at 70 mph or so, I’d consider buying it. Unfortunately, I’m expecting it will end up going only about 70 miles on a charge.

    It’s better looking than the iMiev, with more interior space, and so far it sounds less expensive. I think Mitsubishi is going to have problems.


  81. 81
    steel

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:12 am)

    If they are leasing the battery/car, I could see in the range of a 25,000-30,000 dollar car. The interior is nothing too special, and Nissan already sells similar cars for leass than 14,000 (intro Versa). In fact, I bet the entire “shell” including the GPS etc costs Nissan less than 10,000.

    Let me clarify, I like the look of the interior. Better than the Volt anyway. But they are cloth seats and lining. Large amounts of the dash appear to be the same (fairily inexpensive looking) plastic and there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of additional molding etc.


  82. 82
    Marcus R (WL #5275)

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:15 am)

    Always thrilled to see another concept. Not sure about the look of it, though. Looks like the Murano got stuck in the wind tunnel too long. That said, if it’s reasonably priced it will be hard to ignore. Late 2010′s shaping up to be really exciting.

    Off-topic: Might head up to Chicago next week for the Tesla store opening (Its nice to dream) just to get a good look at the Roadster. Hope they’ve got the Model S on display too.


  83. 83
    omnimoeish

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:54 am)

    Give it time, I guarantee that within a few months of these EVs coming out, people will be hearing range horror stories all over the place. This is why Nissan is monitoring these cars I suspect. But it won’t be enough. If I wasn’t an extreme EV enthusiast and heard Lyle’s Mini-EV range scare, you couldn’t pay me to take that kind of constant risk while I’m driving, let alone successful well paid people who really won’t like playing Russian Roulette with their vehicles fuel supply while in congested areas of the city.

    There is a lot of pent up demand though, and most people don’t drive all that far to work so even 50 miles of actual range would be more than enough to get them there and back with AC/heat running.


  84. 84
    Herm

     

    Herm
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:55 am)

    I wonder what will happen with the upcoming Coda, out of business before they even got started.

    Youtube video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48x9baSuF0&feature=related


  85. 85
    FelippefromBrazil

     

    FelippefromBrazil
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (5:12 am)

    you’ re right… should have writen: “Nissan should develop a sedan version of the Leaf OR A HATCHBACK with a Prius-like back for the U.S. market.”


  86. 86
    ozonelevel

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (5:52 am)

    Looks like they are determined to make EVs so ugly no one will buy them…


  87. 87
    Herm

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:13 am)

    Yeah, aerodynamics are very important on a BEV that is intended to go on the hwy.

    Since weight does not affect range much in an electric, as long as it uses good tires, then it would not hurt range much if they made this car longer.. this would improve rear leg room and perhaps even get a long station wagon type cargo compartment with the rear seats folded… plus it would have more room for batteries along the bottom.

    If they reclined the seats a bit then they could lower the roof and thus reduce the frontal area further, a free range extension.

    I think there is a market for a long station wagon type BEV.. we just dont need another tiny car.


  88. 88
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:38 am)

    Eric E,
    No Problem:
    Let’s Just Get the Volt’s Wheels on the Road!! and No Plug/No Sale!
    I came up with the first one and when I wake up I’ll remember who did the NPNS one (Senior moment)
    I hope that they have both posted at the Volt Shop!
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS


  89. 89
    RB

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:42 am)

    I like it and look forward to the Leaf coming to the USA. True, the appearance is provocative, but that’s also distinctive :)


  90. 90
    Dan Petit

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:54 am)

    It seems that the “market” for it and other BEV’s will not now, or possibly even in the interim future be classified to be available either in the “A/C-Loaded Battery Purgatory” of the South’s heat (stuck in traffic from accident up ahead), or the
    “Static (lol) Frozen Cells” from Winter Storm power failure of the North.
    BEV’s are likely to only be Just made available in locations where there are moderate temperatures apparently.

    Voltec is the true “market everywhere” electric tech.

    I’ll bet that when NewGM stock becomes available, that it will “skyrocket” even faster (and solidly better) than any internet ISP.

    Then, perhaps there could be additional stock issues so that more Voltec production facilities can be funded.

    That’s what I say.


  91. 91
    texas

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:18 am)

    It’s true Catfish I is a bit fugly but maybe International tastes are different. This might be the Better Place Israel car and they might just like this style. International cars are a tough nut to crack.

    I look forward to seeing the other two models they will be showing soon. Love the charging port! If that’s a large hole in there you would be able to run the cable from the bottom of the car up though and lock the cover from the inside, like a gas cap. Brilliant!


  92. 92
    BillR

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:22 am)

    Interesting quote from their press release,

    “With a range of 100 miles on a full charge, Nissan claims its EV will suit the average commuting needs of approximately 80% of Americans.”

    Now GM states that 40 miles suits the needs of 78% of American commuters, so are only 2% in the 40 to 100 mile range (with the final 20% over 100), or does the LEAF actually have less than 100 miles of range in real world driving?

    I don’t know how Nissan plans to maintain their battery life, and this is of key consequence. Since the Volt needs abour 200 Wh/mile, if the LEAF used the same, this would equate to 20 kWh of the 24 available in the battery. Using this much battery day in and day out could lead to early battery failure.

    Perhaps the software will limit battery usage to about 50 miles per day (10 kwh) for commutes with up to 100 miles on a weekend. This provides the 100 mile range, but limits the deep discharge cycles to 50 per year.

    Again, I don’t know their strategy, but it seems that this may be a “buyer beware” situation, because from the linked photos of the batteries, they will be expensive to remove and replace. Of course, this may end up like the Mini, where the LEAF, or perhaps the battery pack, must be leased and will not be for sale.


  93. 93
    Luke

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:37 am)

    jdsv,

    Remember — none of these cars exist, as far as a member of the the general public yet.

    I’ll hug the first serious plugin car I see at a local dealership. Then I’ll drive them all, and decide what works best for me.

    P.S. It does help that our gasoline-powered vehicles are paid off high-mileage machines, so we don’t have to get rid of them if we buy a new daily-driver.


  94. 94
    Joe

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:51 am)

    I feel the same way as you do Vincent. We in the US have a way of self-destruction. I object in having my tax dollars subsidizing any foreign company. Now where does the profit go? Certainly not to the US. The Japanese are smarter in the sense they would never do the same in their country. Also, cash for clunkers should have only applied to American companies. I guess we do it because they would cry like hell if we did not include them. That would not deter me, though, if I had my way.


  95. 95
    BillR

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:53 am)

    So one might ask, what distinguishes the Volt from the LEAF?

    Obviously, E-REV vs. BEV. But now let’s go beyond that, and compare some other important aspects.

    Over 10 years ago GM built the EV1. Other than the fact that it was expensive, one of the main reasons it didn’t make sense was that GM couldn’t make the battery pack last for the life of the vehicle. And battery replacement in an EV is an expensive proposition.

    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/ev1_criticism.php

    So on a hot day, how does the LEAF cool its batteries? What about a -10F day after your car has sat outside at work all day long? If you drive aggressively for 40 to 100 miles (or til the battery is expended) every day, what happens to battery life?

    GM has devised answers for all these scenarios, and plans to offer a high tech battery pack that they can guarantee for 10 years/150,000 miles. Will Nissan do the same? This is where the plot thickens.

    For if at 75,000 miles the LEAF needs a new $10,000 battery replacement, this equates to an additional 6.7 cents per mile for your driving costs over 150,000 miles. So for me, the question is not can an electric car work (as many have proven they can), the question is one of cost and long term affordablity.

    And this doesn’t even bring the range anxiety issue into play, which is still a major concern for many of us.


  96. 96
    koz

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:01 am)

    Their have been a lot of blustery opinions given on this site for and against the market potential for BEVs (mine included). If this car MSRPs for <$35k with battery in 2010, we will have a reasonable answer by this time 2011. This won’t speak to the more refined, higher performance BEV market that Tesla’s Model S will address but it will give an indication of the more everyday market.

    I believe GM should change course now and offer a BEV option (in addition to the stsndard EREV) on the Volt soon. Even if they don’t, which I expect they won’t, I hope they play close attention and are openminded enough to change if the market is there.

    I think many BEV buyers would much rather pay $3k more for a 24kwh BEV Volt than the Leaf. Not that the relative price is that important to me personally. I will be buying from a NAM manufacturer regardless. If GM doesn’t offer one then Tesla, Ford, or somebody else will and they will get my BEV purchase.


  97. 97
    Luke

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:02 am)

    You’ve gotta remember that the torque curve for an electric motor is “backwards” from an ICE — maximum torque at 0 RPM.

    Being able to keep up with the a conventional car at highway speeds is different from smoking it at a traffic light on a road with a 35mph speed-limit. If I were to design an electric car, I’m pretty sure my first attempt would end up being a machine that could do a burnout, but couldn’t maintain 55mph.

    My 90-ish hp VW Jetta TDI weighed 3300lbs, and did really well in everyday driving, including highway merges. I wouldn’t have taken it to the autocross track or the drag-strip, but I could set the cruise on 80mph and drive over the Appalachian mountains like they weren’t there. Having peak torque (163 ft-lbs) available at 1900 RPM will make that happen. The only problem with the vehicle was that it was made by Volkswagen, and so it needed transmissions more frequently than it needed oil changes.


  98. 98
    Joe

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:12 am)

    The only way to go is with an Extented Range Electric Vehicle, period. Drivers will misjudge the distance, forget to charge them or get caught in heavier traffic then expected. Some drivers think they like the idea of a pure electric but wait and see. When the general public see many pure electrics stranded along the road, they will avoid buying them.


  99. 99
    nasaman

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:12 am)

    Bill, you quote the Nissan press release as saying, “With a range of 100 miles on a full charge, Nissan claims its EV will suit the average commuting needs of approximately 80% of Americans.”

    And Lyle at the end of this topic’s intro article says, “….Nissan claims this range will satisfy 70% of global and 98% of US drivers daily needs.”

    Can anyone here reconcile these obviously conflicting and/or exaggerated claims?


  100. 100
    Luke

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:18 am)

    What about leasing the whole car?

    I’m prepared to be an early adopter when it comes to electric vehicles… But the 2nd round with any technology is usually better. So leasing something like this car for 3 years (and keeping the Prius) might make sense, followed by buying a 2nd-generation plugin car.


  101. 101
    nasaman

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:19 am)

    I dunno fer sure, Texas, but I think Nissan hooked the homliest fish in the pond —Catfish I” is the perfect name and red necks will LUV IT!!!


  102. 102
    koz

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:20 am)

    It certainly doesn’t make sense for Europe or Japan who have shorter driving needs (and I assume India and China too). Maybe they are speaking geographically or more likely it’s just a mistake.


  103. 103
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:21 am)

    Not the official answer you’re looking for, but I’d say Peder’s guess down at 18 sounds about right:

    “freeway 75mph-85mph 60 miles
    frewway 60mph-75mph 70 miles
    mixed city freeway 85 miles
    city 100 miles”


  104. 104
    Luke

     

    Luke
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:27 am)

    Agreed — a 100-mile car isn’t for everybody.

    But it might be able to displace the majority of my driving, especially if we keep our existing paid-off high-mileage car around for road-trips.

    If you can only own one car and want to minimize oil consumption, the Volt probably would be the right choice. If you have a family-fleet and predictable driving needs, the leaf could offset an awful lot of trips to work and the grocery store, without reducing capability.


  105. 105
    an_outsider

     

    an_outsider
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:55 am)

    Is the LEAF ( Leading, Environmentally Friendly, Affordable, Family Car, dixit Motortrend) already iPhone/ compatible?
    http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/INTRODUCTION/DETAILS/EV-IT/

    More seriously, as Lyle stated: “The car also has a wireless IT system that connects it to a global monitoring center 24 hours per day.” make me wonder how this new monitoring/tracking technology trend being/becoming a bit personal life invasive? On request only? GPS disabling option? This should be an option. Telemetering may be good for car mfg to grab raw data but how far will it goes..?

    Otherwise, maybe except rear view, the LEAF looks very actual by Japanese car standard.


  106. 106
    statik

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:55 am)

    …must…not…discuss…range…with…DonC

    /happy place, happy place…and the urge passes

    (=


  107. 107
    Luke

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:57 am)

    http://www.gaywheels.com doesn’t have a review of the Leaf yet and I haven’t knowingly talked to any gay car enthusiasts yet today, so I’d reserve judgment on whether the Nissan leaf is a gay ride. The gaywheels car reviews are very well written and interesting, but they are a little light on the minivan reviews.

    One particular gay couple that I know are touring musicians. They play a show in New England one day and play a show in Utah a few days later, so a 100-mile car wouldn’t really work for them. They drive a Buick at the moment, so I guess Buicks qualify as a gay ride.


  108. 108
    statik

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:01 am)

    I agree with you, I just can’t see sub 30K here, and the more time with have with the press release, the more it feels like the price is quoted without battery.

    It is just too fantastical and Nissan is in bed with Agassi. I mean if Nissan is producing sub 30K cars with 24 kWh packs now, doesn’t that already serious wound Project Better Places business plan? They do have to get more than fair market value for the packs here to both make money and set up those ‘half-million’ dollar stations all over the place.

    /I feel a little, price reverse-switcharoo, with a PBP push coming behind it really soon.


  109. 109
    Todd

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:05 am)

    Ok, the front looks lke a mini-Prius. 8 hours at 220 volts! You mean I have to wait 16 for a full charge at 120? Satisfy 98% of daily US drivers needs, so only about 50 to 60 miles? The back is ugly! And who’s bright idea was it to put the chargeing port in the center up front?


  110. 110
    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:09 am)

    An EV with 100 mile range may be okay. The marketing of it is the hangup.

    Range anxiety is a stress not worth paying money to own. It’s like complaining about getting a Big Brother wrist chip implant. Then agreeing to pay $100 a month for mobil gps service.

    How will Nissan market this car? “It’s the newest thing on the road. More fun than anything you have ever driven. No gas station stops..ever!”

    Here’s the problem. This car will cost about $30k. In two years time the same $30k will easily buy an EV with twice the range. Battery technology is rapidly advancing. How will this car resell in 2015? My estimate is about as well as a Focus.

    It’s good to see Nissan getting into the business of electrification. But, EREV is the smart way to go.

    =D~


  111. 111
    RB

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    RB
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:10 am)

    DonC says “A range of 100 miles for a 24 kWh battery pack suggests the Leaf will use 168 wh/mile. Compare that to GM’s claim for the Volt — 200 wh/mile. Seems that GM is being more conservative. Or is that realistic?”
    ———————————–

    200 wh/mile is realistic for 30mph, but not even close for 70mph. One thing that is going to happen when EVs become widely available is that ordinary drivers will develop a much better intuition about the relationship between energy use and speed. That will be good.


  112. 112
    Todd

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:11 am)

    You know I’m seeing these BEV’s come out and I can only think of one thing – the companies producing them realize just how hard it is to design and build a true hybrid. In this area I give Toyota and GM high marks. Nissan is trying but their Insight doesn’t even match up to a Prius. I still see the Volt as bounding way ahead of any other hybrid even close to production. The Volt’s plug in with range extending serial hybrid design is by far the best solution for environmentally friendly and economically powered cars. As we all know, the best does not always win. GM is going to have to really educate and do a lot of marketing. If done right, GM will have a winner far ahead of anyone else for years to come. This latest entry by Nissan proves that they are clueless as to which way to go and are having difficulty improving the Insight to even the Prius standards let alone reach the Volt’s standards.


  113. 113
    statik

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:12 am)

    It is definitely not the ‘for sure’ reality range…otherwise they would estimate it based on todays standard. (With EVs that means you have to call BS on the highway portion straight away, lol)

    I know all the EV makers have to give out a number as a guess, but if I was them, I would just say that we expect it to get 100 miles in the city and leave it at that.

    At least this ’100′ is feasibly possible…as in, I want to get 100 miles out of my car today, and you could do it by toning your driving style down/being conservative, but still obeying the law and not driving everyone else on the road totally insane.

    If someone is quoting ranges on the Japanese cycle, I don’t think it is possible to hit that number, unless you are going to pretend you are leading a parade and are going to drive 25 miles slower than everyone else on the highway, and then run all red lights in the city maintaining speed, lol.


  114. 114
    zipdrive

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:12 am)

    Sure, it looks ugly in the pictures but, in all fairness, you have to see cars in the flesh to really get the idea about them.


  115. 115
    statik

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:16 am)

    …but will the USA model have the same price when it is sold with the pack?


  116. 116
    Arch

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    Arch
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:16 am)

    I would not put much hope or faith in rebates for the cars. Last year I helped a friend of mine install his heat pump. This year there is a
    30% rebate on the systems. There was limited rebate last year. My system is the same as my friends. The bids all came in 15% to 20% higher than last year. I do enjoy my new system and it still should pay for its self in 4 to 5 years. Just do not get your hopes up that the rebates are going to save you that much money. JMHO

    Take Care
    Arch


  117. 117
    Todd

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:18 am)

    I think your last statement is going to be the bigges problem with BEV technology. With the Volt even after 10 years if the battery does go bad, my car won’t stop working. A BEV, the owner is out of luck until that batter is replaced. I predict that about two years or possibley even less, the BEV market will fade away. Why? Because there will stories on the news about a BEV driver stuck on the side of the road clogging up traffic. Even if this is only 1 out of every 10,000 BEV owners that end up this way, these are the types of stories that make the news, and sales will drop. The only solution is rapid charge which we don’t have the infrastructure for or if doubtful solutions like EEStore claims they have can be produced really do make it to market. I don’t see either of these things happening.


  118. 118
    RB

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:19 am)

    statik said “Sidenote: If they are selling them later in 2010, but likely also taking pre-orders, I wonder what that means for timing on actually getting a MSRP out of them. Late spring?”
    ————————————————————–

    If they can really deliver late 2010, then MSRP and pre-orders are likely to begin in January. Tha way they have a block of real orders to use to excite the dealers and energize the training of service people.

    (Assuming, of course, they they get a lot of pre-orders.)


  119. 119
    statik

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:19 am)

    I’m liking your ‘black hole’ gravatar Eric.


  120. 120
    Luke

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:20 am)

    The problem with this kind of “connected” driving is that I can’t take my sysadmin’s tinfoil hat off when I’m driving.


  121. 121
    Luke

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:25 am)

    Yes, but by buying a plugin car, oil prices no longer affect me directly. (Though they will affect what I pay at the grocery store.) And it’s a step the right direction for global warming, oil wars, and so forth — someone’s gotta take the first step, it’s clearly not going to be you, so it might as well be me.

    Trek 7200. Toyota Prius. Ford Ranger. 30.


  122. 122
    Todd

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:26 am)

    Yeah, parked on the side of the road – dead battery! Go EREV! I really like the EREV idea. In future Volts there may be optional extenders, such as diesel, fuel cell or who know’s what. For those that want full BEV, how aobut adding in another batter pack to get 80 to 100 miles out of a Volt? The options are wide open because of the Volt’s power train design – a smart move by GM.


  123. 123
    Luke

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:26 am)

    So how would you make it look? Keep in mind that aerodynamic drag is a big deal.


  124. 124
    Todd

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:27 am)

    Then you’ll need to take care of the first problem, where your electricity is coming from to charge the thing!


  125. 125
    statik

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:28 am)

    The 10 year/150,000 warranty is being given by GM because they have to, not because they are good guys or because they have a wonderful product. If Nissan plans to sell this car in the US and in CARB states (California, New York, New Jersey, etc, etc) they also have to do the same.

    So technically, all those things you mentioned, are really not a concern at all, at least for 10 years, 150,000 miles. If Nissan screws it up, and they have to keep fixing/replacing the packs…that is on them. (This is also one of the main reasons we have so many EVs on the road today…oh wait, nevermind)

    Sidenote: I hate, hate the 10/150, and I’m the consumer, lol. No manufacturer selling the US is not over-building in the expected costs to hit this benchmark into the MSRP (as we know, GM is adding what they figure a entire replacement pack costs them in the math), and it also has made EVs inaccessible to the general public in the US.


  126. 126
    Todd

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:36 am)

    I’m from Northern California (above Sacramento) and no a BEV is not practical there. The distances in Northern and Central California area emense. Though flat, the drives are long and a BEV will not work. By the way, Northern California does get below 30 during the winter months, Central would be more accomodating if the distances were shorter, but both are farm country. How about getting stuck with a dead battery on some country road where maybe 10 people pass by a day. Hope your cell phone gets a signal or it may be a long wait.


  127. 127
    pdt

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:36 am)

    Peder:

    I’d be interested to know what the behavior of the Mini-E is in very cold conditions.


  128. 128
    Todd

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:36 am)

    Oh and I forgot, farmer John isn’t going to give up his Ford F150 for this thing!


  129. 129
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:38 am)

    It’s a good thing that this site exists. It is critical to truthfully-disclose, not just repeatedly, but dozens and dozens of times in dozens of dozens of different paraphrased ways, that electrification of the auto

    *************************************************
    has not the same usage standards as ICE
    *************************************************
    so that from a sheer practical, unbiased, unprejudiced most certainly, and comprehensive set of reasons based most strictly on * understood * facts, that

    to buy a BEV or E-REV requires a consumer to understand competely what they are buying and its limitations before buying it!!

    This is what I am trying to help provide here as a way of helping readers become able to have a “meeting of the minds contractually” regarding what to expect, as compared to what they already expect ICE-wise. (Some consider my posts are helpful regarding failure conditions and complexities).

    That way, when it is time for you to go to the OEM of your choice, you are more likely to be properly informed to be a savvy buyer.

    You know that phrase “What you don’t know won’t hurt you”?
    ***********
    NOT!!
    ***********
    The extremely valuable service Lyle provides us here is a way to provide everyone that valuable and truthful critique that likely will help prevent “Equipment Experiments” to be sold to you inappropriately or prematurely.

    While BEV is certainly on a brisk pathway, it has 100 years of internal combustion research to overcome, (which I think it will in 10 years at most, certainly). Until then, the teamwork to get there is E-REV.


  130. 130
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:39 am)

    Ummm… the Insight is made by Honda.

    Oh, and GM really doesn’t sell too many “true hybrids”, try Toyota, Honda, and Ford.


  131. 131
    pdt

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:42 am)

    80% charge in 30 minutes is ~35kW of power. That’s not going to happen at home. I’m trying to think of where this would be practical/useful.


  132. 132
    Dave G

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:54 am)

    Most of my friends are not plug-in enthusiasts, so they don’t know much about what’s going on in this space. But they are all keenly aware of BEV range issues. When I tell them about the Volt, they all immediately think it’s a pure BEV, and say something like: “What happens when it runs out of juice?” When I tell them the gas engine comes on after that, they say something like: “Oh, that would work.”

    A significant percentage of people posting on forums like this are willing to accept a pure BEV, but in my experience, this does not represent the general population.

    The general public is scared of pure BEVs, so sales will be low.


  133. 133
    BillR

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:55 am)

    Actually, the quote was from the MotorTrend article linked in #3 by EVNow.

    http://blogs.motortrend.com/6564081/green/driving-the-future-nissans-all-new-electric-vehicle/index.html


  134. 134
    an_outsider

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:00 am)

    I missed this “detail” this morning: availability to mass market 2012 ?!

    (motortrend, autobloggreen, etc)

    2012 sounds a bit disappointing to me after all…


  135. 135
    Larry B

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:03 am)

    This is all going to come down to price. If they price it right (high $20′s I’d say) they are going to have a major hit on their hands. If they price it too high (Tesla, Volt, Fisker) they will have a low selling enthusiast car.


  136. 136
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:04 am)

    koz,
    Is that “20″ mph or miles? If miles at what speed?. They better have a very strong back bumper if it mph.
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    LJGTVWOTR!!****************NPNS


  137. 137
    Dan Petit

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:07 am)

    Statik,

    Yes, it would be great to have an MSRP down by, 5k to 7k,
    but, here is a possibility for that.

    It may be that those funds could go to a better grade pack down the line, and, it is just not the case that
    “any ol’ set a batteries” can just be shoved up in there.

    This is the only way to do it. GM is the only one that might be able to retrofit Gen 3 batteries into Gen 1 Volts.

    It just ain’t going to be done by us shops in the aftermarket.

    We are not going to be able to help you “shop around”, “get a battery at a discount auto parts store” and install it for you.

    ************************
    Just won’t happen!!
    ************************

    I just closed contracting for the 140th diagnostics training/equipment contract and am still counting. I am up to 7 closings per week, just this last week. Trust me when I say that GM is dong the right thing with needing to cost-in that extra pack.

    OEM’s can not legally allow for outside services to be performed on their high voltage vehicles, it would be a horrendously gross exposure legally to safety. So, the very best of every practical way to do everything is the way GM is doing it. Build in the costs to achieve the consumer and industry expectations at 10 years 150,000 miles.

    There has just got to be some way for you to get into a Volt if you want one bad enough. (Somehow I have this overwhelming feeling that somehow you will get into a Volt if you really want one so badly).


  138. 138
    Canuk

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:12 am)

    Statik:
    I’m a fellow Canadian, and I live in the GTA like you. I agree with you that this new Nissan is the best EV to come out yet, in terms of being applicable to the needs of us here. I see that many Americans here seem to poo-poo non-American attemps at auto electrification — citing almost any lame reason to do so. However, for us as non-Americans, we have the “advantage” of not having to worry about shopping domestic (because we have no domestic auto companies). Therefore, we can enjoy shopping for the best product for our needs, regardless of who makes it.


  139. 139
    coffeetime

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:18 am)

    The front view reminds me of the Claymation cars used in a Chevron commercial, and looking at the rear using a side view reminds me a bit of the Murano. The best view? Without a doubt, the driver :-)


  140. 140
    carcus1

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:25 am)

    “So, the very best of every practical way to do everything is the way GM is doing it.”
    ________________

    Okay, this has GOT to be the mother of all fan boy statements.

    /did you double dose on your meds this morning?


  141. 141
    DaV8or

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:49 am)

    Isn’t Nissan hooked up with PBP? I mean they haven’t said anywhere yet that they are planning on selling you the battery. The car may be sub $30k and then you lease the battery from PBP. Then you can look forward to you monthly car statements just like your phone bill.

    No thanks. Volt for me.


  142. 142
    koz

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:50 am)

    True and there are no cars BEV, EREV, ICE or otherwise that work for everybody. That’s why there are so many models and so many options. The first BEVs only need to target the right markets with relevent products at appropriate volumes (e.g. 1500-2000 per year of Tesla Roadster, 10,000-20,000 per year Model S, 20,000 per year Volt BEV 24KWh HA!)


  143. 143
    Larry McFall

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:50 am)

    Not bad! The challenge is on. If you were going to put adversing out for the vehicle, I would have liked to know more about the vehicle.

    Watch out GM. The Asians are pretty inovative and so are the Europeans. I would think that GM with their VOLTEC concept would be putting out more information on marketing the concept. GM is pretty quite.


  144. 144
    koz

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:53 am)

    Not many places for a 100 mile BEV IMO. Maybe regional malls and theme parks. When they have a 200 mile option then rest stops, regional malls, highwayside restaurants, theme parks, etc.


  145. 145
    an_outsider

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:02 am)

    The iphone app in action (on prototype) @2:06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrNmplhx7ag


  146. 146
    DaV8or

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:13 am)

    Or something that just doesn’t look like a Mutant Ninja Turtle. I guess I’m not as totally desperate for an EV as some are on this blog. I’ll pass.


  147. 147
    statik

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:23 am)

    I’m not sure ‘many’ Americans that poo-poo it for solely that reason, there are some for sure. I find those with strong opinions tend to push their agenda just as strongly, and that tends to project a larger demographic than it really is.

    I think it is moreso people who just can’t imagine the ‘city’ lifestyle, those of us who ‘live and play’where we work…and those who feel that a useable BEV somewhow threatens the Volt. (In my opinion, the two can co-exist just fine for at least 20 years).

    Personally, if I can support a USA automaker I will, and I frequently do. Of the domestics, I support GM even more if I can, because GM is such a large part of the community/GTA where I live (more specifically Durham Region).

    Even though I complain a lot about of GM runs its business, and what I perceive to be a very incongruent lineup, I still throw my dollars behind them whenever I can. If a GM product is ‘close’ to what I want, I buy it, even if it may not be ‘the best’. In the last decade or so, just from GM I have bought a new Grand Am, Sunfire, Pursuit and a Safari for my business, and personally I have bought a G6. Cadillac STS, SRX

    Canada and the USA have a very symbiotic relationship, and it is in our best interest for our neighbours to the south to be successful. If I can’t buy ‘Canadian,’ I will do the next best thing and buy American (within reason).

    However, when it comes to EVs, I have no loyalty and I could care less where it comes from, because pollution, health, eco-awareness (I personally believe in climate change). My family and future generations health is more important to me than where a car is built.

    Borders get redawn all the time, countries come and go, morals and ideals are reshaped constantly…but we only get one shot with our health, the environment and how we leave the world for our kids.


  148. 148
    CorvetteGuy

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:25 am)

    Has anybody asked if the VOLT or any BEV can be towed behind a motorhome with all 4 wheels on the ground? Some of these small electric and EREV cars might do quite well with the MH crowd who still have them and can afford them if they can be. I am curious.


  149. 149
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:26 am)

    2.5 years away. That’s not very long.


  150. 150
    Peder

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:28 am)

    It is on the top of their Leaf website, the link says live chat, It is a very cool feature.

    Peder


  151. 151
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:29 am)

    “It will be on the road in some markets (CA, OR, WA, AZ, TN, NC) in 2010, with more states to follow.”

    Global availability in 2012.


  152. 152
    EVNow

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:31 am)

    We may have it along the I-5 corridor on the west coast – from San Diego to Vancouver, BC.


  153. 153
    Peder

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:33 am)

    So would I,

    We will have to wait a few months and then the 200 or so in the New York araea including Lyle can give us some real insight to that.

    I can tell you here in So-Cal, my 2007 Gem E4 does not like even 50degree weather. It takes about a 15% hit in range in the winter but that is a lead acid pack and a whole different car.

    It will be interesting tyo see real world and I am glad BMW put the Mini-E in both very cold and very hot (Like victorville) climates.


  154. 154
    pdt

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:51 am)

    koz, EVNow, or anyone else,

    Could you go into more detail about how this would work?

    Anyplace you have 10′s or 100′s of cars you have to multiply the power requirement by the number of cars. 10 cars is 350 kW, 100 cars is 3.5 MW. That’s quite a bit of power.

    On a highway corridor I see the same problem, besides the high power requirements at the stops, you get 80 miles range after stopping for 30 minutes, so you drive for a little over an hour, then stop for half an hour to charge up. I don’t see it.


  155. 155
    statik

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:02 pm)

    Dan, I’m not sure really why/how you got off on that tangent from my response about the warranty’s effect on the American landscape for EVs.

    I do think the statement you made that carcus1 referenced is a little over the top. I’ve said this before to you, but it is not a good ideal to deal in absolutes like that.

    You ‘could’ be right (although I don’t feel that is likely in this instance), but you leave yourself no outs, and you could paint yourself as a radical to a lot of people, and they won’t really take the time to appreciate your posts.

    For instance, the Volt was my number 1 choice, I had my reasons I felt that way, but I always left the door open for something better to come down the line. Then the I-MiEV came along and it did just that…it fit my needs better, so it became number 1. Now today, at first blush, it looks like Nissan can actually bring this to market at well, so this moves into top spot.

    There is always something better coming, there is always a way to do something better. I’m sure if you asked GM themselves if they were starting over today, would they do some things differently with what they know now? I bet they would say yes.


  156. 156
    Unni

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:15 pm)

    Yet another Prius (YAP) looks – I am not sure it only matters to aerodynamics but now the people perception is prius kind of designs are more aerodynamic than grill based designs.

    question to GM : You said people are over marketing the Cd, Now why all auto makers follow that shape for there cars ? Do this means that they really found something you missed in your reverse eng: process or R& D ?

    Another thing is now the international designs tend to make shapes like this – look at opel flextreme concept.

    If its aero or not that the future trend and all are working towards this style with one or 2 models. I think GM is still thinking of aztek and its failure than a global perspective. I think they have to do a aztek 2.0 with wind tunneling to fetch a couple of more mpgs and make people feel its aerodynamic.

    One more thing i noticed is Nissan has 2 charging ports : one for normal and one for high speed. Wondering the standards on those – as i see volt has only one and how high speed charging is handled in volt.

    Another question was how a hybrid will have better millage than ice in a high way cycle – I see Prius has 45 mpg high way- do this means that if no hybrid technology is used , still prius with same ice and body will fetch 45 mpg+ ? because i herd prius is only input split and it doesn’t have any effect on highway millage.

    Now question to GM is why Cruze is then only expected to 40mpg than 45 -50 mpg ?

    Sorry 2 many question :-) but curiosity


  157. 157
    koz

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:25 pm)

    I left out hotels too. Tesla already has their charger installed in some Central Ca hotels.

    How could it work and provide some practical benefit?
    -Destination charging (i.e. restaurants, regional malls, theme parks, etc) is self explanatory since people we be stopping for 1hr or more so 160 or more miles worth of charging could be provided with no inconvenience.
    -BEVs are not going to “spring” onto the market from one day to the next so demand will be for some time, so existing power is probably sufficient in most places for initial charger installations
    -Manage consumer expectations. First and 2nd gen BEV buyers should be sold on or expect to be taking 200 hundred plus mile trips in their BEV without severe limitations. As more charging stations come online then they just get the added benefits.

    As far as rest stops charging and 100 mile BEVs, I just don’t see it as being very practical as my earlier comment alluded to. But, when they get to 160+ mile highway range then it starts becoming a little more meaningful.


  158. 158
    carcus1

     

    carcus1
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:46 pm)

    Whoa!

    Check out this price reference from Business Week (AP):

    “Nissan has promised that the Leaf, which goes into mass-production as a global model in 2012, will be about the same price as a gas-engine car such as the 1.5 million yen ($15,000) Tiida, which sells abroad as the Versa, starting at about $10,000.”

    Scratch my “now we’re talking” comment from ealier in the thread . . . . NOW we’re talking!

    Nissan rolls out electric car at new headquarters
    http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D99QMQ2O0.htm

    /If Nissan can bring this to market for $15,000, you’re going to see lots of “anxiety” melt away.
    //That price seems a little crazy at this point, maybe in 4 or 5 years, but then again – - she’s reporting for business week, from Japan . . .


  159. 159
    jdsv

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:52 pm)

    I may be atypical and not fall under the umbrella you describe, but I don’t give two hoots about buying domestic. I have more family members gainfully employed by Toyota than any American auto manufacturer. And even if that weren’t the case, I wouldn’t put down a foreign product just for patriotic or semi-personal reasons.

    (Feel free to replace ‘need’ with ‘want’ if you must, grammar police):

    I need to have one and only one car. I must be able to plug this car into an outlet (yes, even though I rent an apartment). I need to be able to get to work using only electricity, driving 34 miles round trip at mostly interstate speeds. I must be able to drive 150 miles to see my nearest family.

    The first auto manufacturer to build such a car, price it so that I can break even within warranty from my 17 mpg vehicle, and sell it within 250 miles of me _wins_. I don’t care if the company is headquartered in Detroit or the moon.

    NPNS!!! =D~~~~


  160. 160
    an_outsider

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (12:59 pm)

    Maybe one day in the futur, the AAA/CAA emergency road assistance will also carry a quick charger to supply energy boost for those stalled on the road side with depleted batteries ?

    http://ww1.aaa.com/scripts/WebObjects.dll/AAAOnline.woa/4000/wo/8b37XpS39y63zb7mbFOmww/11.9.23.8.3.0.1.2.2.3.1.0.1.1.0.0


  161. 161
    stopcrazypp

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:02 pm)

    Your “friends” are also anecdotal evidence. The fact is none of us can predict sales numbers and customer perceptions until these cars are actually FOR SALE. So far it’s just our own opinions about perceived customer expectations.

    In my opinion, it rides a lot on price. If Nissan can get the car under $30k before tax credits, I think it has a chance to be a hit since that’s when it starts to hit the affordable range. Even under $40k, I think it will do okay, but obviously nearer to $30k or under is better.

    They estimate the battery replacement cost is $10k, which really is the best I have seen so far ($417/kWh vs the previous best $679/kWh for Tesla’s battery pack) and quite a big reduction in price in short time if it is true. At this cost, I think they can get it near $30k.


  162. 162
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:06 pm)

    Ran out of time on my edit, last add should read:

    //That price seems a little crazy at this point, maybe in 4 or 5 years, but then again – - Kageyama is an established writer for AP, reporting from Japan and Japanese is her native language, . . .price point is almost always the first thing asked on an automobile. . . .

    very interesting

    If this is truly where the battery/BEV prices are at, then Mitsubishi better hurry up and adjust the imiev prices accordingly. If they gather up too much $ from early adopter pricing, they’ll end up pissing people off and leaving a bad taste when the price gets cut in 1/2 less than a year later.


  163. 163
    MojoRilla

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:17 pm)

    Sure the only way to go is a range extended vehicle. I love having to lug an extra 600 or 700 pounds of engine, fuel, fuel tank, exhaust, etc around with me. I love oil changes, other maintenance, and emission inspections. I love not being able to drive in our HOV lanes because cars must be powered over 80% by non-gasoline sources.

    In short, range extended vehicles are the worst of both worlds, needing both an expensive and heavy battery and an internal combustion engine.

    This vehicle is not for people with 100 mile daily commutes, or who take 200 mile road trips every other weekend, but for those of us with 15 mile daily commutes it looks really promising.


  164. 164
    koz

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:18 pm)

    “If Nissan plans to sell this car in the US and in CARB states (California, New York, New Jersey, etc, etc) they also have to do the same.”

    This is not accurate. The 10yr/150,000 mile warranty requirement is for PZEV credits (or enhanced PZEV credits for plug-ins) but BEV qualify for ZEV credits so they don’t fall under this requirement. This is why the Tesla Roadster still qualifies for credits eventhough their warranty is much shorter.

    The battery warranty requirement is given in section C.3.2(d) under the PZEV defition.
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/levprog/cleandoc/clean_2003_zev_tps.pdf

    As an aside, I think it is idiotic for series EREVs like Volt to fall under this requirement. The 10yr warranty was originally included in the PZEV credits to ensure that HEVs like the Prius will still be operating like a PZEV for the whole 10 years. Since the Volts performance would be so severely affected by a much diminished battery, this seems like an uneeded hardship for this design.


  165. 165
    Larry B

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:42 pm)

    I said before if its priced in the 20′s it will be a hit. If its priced in the low teens, its going to be a huge blockbuster hit! They will have to beat buyer (like me) off with a stick!


  166. 166
    Schmeltz

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:48 pm)

    My late in the game thoughts on this:

    1. Bravo to Nissan for doing what they set out to do, build a pure BEV. I’ve been anticipating the arrival, and I think it is/will be a decent success story for this company.
    2. The looks aren’t for everyone. I’m really neither offended or drawn to the looks, but I think it will polarize a lot of other people.
    3. The EV drivetrain and flat Li-Ion cells look to be a well-thought out set-up. I like it.
    4. Nissan “Leaf”??? Can’t believe that is what they named it.
    5. My guess on overall cost is 35 grand. Here’s where it gets sticky. This car is will likely to be sold in the Better Place system. I know you don’t want to hear this Statik, but Nissan probably figures the best/only way to sell this car in mass is to lease the battery pack such as to BP. Just throwing numbers out, you could be looking at a Leaf “shell” of $20 grand, and X dollars/month BP contract in tandem or something. (Complete wag on my behalf everyone). Otherwise, for the people who wouldn’t go the BP route, Full price with battery pack included will probably be mid-30′s, to low 40′s. Ouch, I know. It’s fun to wag isn’t it.
    6. Bottom line…Unless Nissan knows a secret to making batteries on the cheap, this car will be expensive to buy outright, but more reasonable to lease the battery in the first 5 years. At the end of the day, for this guy, the Volt is the better solution. The 100 mile range just wouldn’t cut it for me. With that said, there’s no reason this car and the Volt can’t still be friendly neighbors.


  167. 167
    Lwesson

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:49 pm)

    Yes, like the original Volt prototype! RB I wrote in the metric comments a while back.

    Regards! Higgins & The Lads


  168. 168
    Mohsen

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:49 pm)

    Dont see anything seriously wrong with the styling. At least it is not the boring Chevy econo-imitation looks.

    I believe urbanites (the core market) will differ with those who find it unattractive.


  169. 169
    Mohsen

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:55 pm)

    Yes agree. If electric cars look just like their gasoline counterparts, then that would be a surrender to the anti-progressivist philosophy that says function has no role in form.

    I am looking forward to the time when EVs look radically different, given that they have no mechanical component above the waistline.

    This will happen when EVs outperform gas cars in all depts.


  170. 170
    Grant

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (1:56 pm)

    Here is one place where a solar roof makes perfect sense. Not for the charging option, though that would be a nice sell point, however impractical. In this case, a rooftop solar system would nicely offset any drain from the always-on electronics, such as that uplink it will have. That sort of thing takes power (if you don’t believe me, plug your wireless router into your computer UPS, by itself and watch the drain). I’d love to see a solar assisted one, simply so I wouldn’t have to wonder how much my data uplink was sucking my mileage.


  171. 171
    Lwesson

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    RB, one other thing. Your, ah, image reminds me of an astronomy book that I had as a child. On one page there was a depiction of what Martians might look like. Hummm? ——Higgins


  172. 172
    Lwesson

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:08 pm)

    Thank you Mohsen. A while back I made a comment about the beautiful/exciting concept car and was run over and then backed over. Whilst laying crushed on the ground, a regular site attendee pretty much told the staring crowd to move on, nothing to see here.

    Repeatedly, even from those in GM, there seems to be some hand wringing over the change in the Volt. Interesting to say the least!

    Higgins & Co.


  173. 173
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:09 pm)

    The design seems pleasant enough. I like it subjectively. Plus the design more or less tells you what the car is: It says “I’m a little guy with cool tech suitable for driving locally”.

    The worse mistake would be to make it look like a super car and then have it be severely range and speed limited. IOW this drive train in a Tesla S body would not be a good thing.


  174. 174
    Mohsen

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:14 pm)

    My SPOT emergency transponder uses 2 AA batteries, and can provide GPS downlink and satellite uplink every 7 seconds for 6 days straight.

    Now, that is 2 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 6 = 0.75 Wh per day. How many Wh does the Leaf have? 23,000?

    If the uplink happens twice a day, that is 518,000 years before the Leaf battery runs out.


  175. 175
    Studley Doright

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:15 pm)

    Supposed to be priced very close to the Nissan Versa, so you are looking at $20K or less. The First Affordable Electric Car for the Masses.

    Can you say Car 2.0 ?


  176. 176
    Lwesson

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:17 pm)

    Joe, are you a plumber per chance? I agree with you that it is odd that our Congressthings put our tax dollars towards foreign owned companies… . Again, the nauseating “Free” Trade crowd infest Wahsingtoon and sing praise for internationalist causes and corporate freedom to just use the U.S. Nation as some Earth Dirt from which to base their operations from, oh, and use its children to fight wars. Forgot about that.

    Interesting that in Japan, their government goes out of it’s way to support it’s industries.

    Expect more “fine performances”. Carbon Cap and Trade is yet another con scheme.

    Fine Regards!——-Higgins and the Lads


  177. 177
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:18 pm)

    Well, this low price thrill ride has ended rather quickly. Looks like Nissan is planning on the “L” word for the batteries, for initial customers, at least.

    Bummer.
    _______________

    “Mr Palmer [Nissan's head of product planning] said the Leaf, excluding its battery pack, would cost the equivalent of a small family car, and the company planned to enter into a multiple-year lease of its special lithium-ion battery pack with its first customers.

    Nissan said the total cost of running the car would be less than for a petrol-powered equivalent over the lease period.”

    Nissan turns over a new, green Leaf
    http://business.theage.com.au/business/nissan-turns-over-a-new-green-leaf-20090802-e5wm.html


  178. 178
    Studley Doright

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:19 pm)

    This car will be a worldwide hit. Finally a TRULY AFFORDABLE ELECTRIC CAR (~$20K) for everybody. It will be the Beetle of the 21st Century.

    Also, very importantly this is a ZERO-EMISSION VEHICLE (unlike the Volt).

    Go LEAF ! Go Nissan !


  179. 179
    DonC

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:25 pm)

    We have enough information to at least guesstimate the range of the Leaf. From published data we know:

    1. A “typical” car will use 390 wh/mile during the US06 drive cycle
    2. A “typical” car will use 280 wh/mile during the highway drive cycle
    3. A “typical” car sill use 220 wh/mile during a city drive cycle

    (If you like anecdotal reality checks, note that Lyle is using about 390 wh/mile for his freeway commute. He’s keeping up with traffic!)

    We also know that the current city cycle uses 20% more energy than the old city LA4 cycle. Hence:

    4. A “typical” car will use 176 wh/mile during the US-LA4 drive cycle

    Since we know that current LA driving is very close to US06 and that the Leaf will go 100 miles on the LA4 drive cycle, simple proportions suggest that the Leaf will have a real world drive cycle (in cites like LA and Atlanta) of (176/390) X 100 miles = 45 miles. That of course won’t be exact but it’s not a bad first approximation.

    That’s not a bad range for many commutes, especially IF you can charge at work or there are public chargers available. The limited range of the Leaf is why Nissan is so focused on public charging and working with local partners which will roll out public charging.


  180. 180
    True That

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:27 pm)

    The U.S. Government should be giving Nissan twice what they did. Nissan is going to electrify this country in spite of the Little 3. Nissan is committed to full electrification of the automobile while GM is not. Obama should have shut down GM and given that $80 billion of taxpayers dollars to Nissan. End of Story.


  181. 181
    Tree Hugger

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:31 pm)

    The LEAF will purify the polluted American auto industry. Go Nissan.
    BTW, Americans in Smyrna Tennessee are tooling up to make this revolutionary car.


  182. 182
    statik

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:32 pm)

    Got it, thanks…I was jumping from the microsite.


  183. 183
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:39 pm)

    Statik,

    If you believe that non-Voltec is right for you, then certainly go for whatever else.

    Many people listen to technical experience. Mine is neither immoderate, wrong, or radical. It is real, true, and without the “forward-looking” or hypothetical bullshit prevalent here frequently.

    I need not “leave myself and out” because I know GM engineering so well from analyzing it down through the decades;
    hands on;
    bleeding from the hundreds of cuts,
    burns from hundreds of burns,
    sweat from thirty seven years of Texas Summers, working on GM engines that are hotter still,
    and frustrations (where I learned in 1971 that I simply needed to try the obviously better “angle of attack” to solve any GM problem more easily).

    I view GM very respectfully because I know GM the hard way, the best way. Fast mouse clicking teaches no experience, nor conveys any experience ever, ever, ever.

    You have the goal of getting whatever comes out first as you posted a few threads back. You choose to post your personal decisions based on your own logic. Free speech is certainly a great thing, especially when you bring the humor.

    But your above commentary tells me that you’ve already decided completely and finally against the Volt, which is perfectly fine with me, (and others on the WL). That was just something that was not exactly revealed by you (although implied certainly).

    “Anything else but a Volt”, [because anything else is going to be better], is not what I expect that you mean here. And, I would fail to see the logic in any comparison whereby anyone else (OEM’s) has not even the slightest number of absolute technical design facts revealed as compared to Voltec, which technical facts are already being proven before our very eyes within all the videos shown here. The true contest is reality, not hypothesis or wit.

    So, while your humor is outrageously funny, maybe I ought to understand it more, and receive it more as a black humor.


  184. 184
    DonC

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:43 pm)

    Peder says “Don just to just to compare a bit between the E and the Leaf as far as range.

    Peder, I posted this above but in case you didn’t see it, we actually can guess what the range of the Leaf might be as follows:

    We know from published data:

    1. A “typical” car will use 390 wh/mile during the US06 drive cycle
    2. A “typical” car will use 280 wh/mile during the highway drive cycle
    3. A “typical” car sill use 220 wh/mile during a city drive cycle

    Note that these numbers track your and Lyle’s experience fairly closely. You and Lyle are using almost exactly the predicted 390 wh/mile when driving US06 and about 233 wh/mile, only a bit more than the predicted 220 wh/mile, when driving on what would be the current city driving cycle.

    However, the Leaf’s range is given for the old city cycle, which would be US-LA4. This doesn’t present a real problem in estimating because we also know that the current city cycle uses 20% more energy than the old city LA4 cycle. Hence:

    4. A “typical” car will use 176 wh/mile during the US-LA4 drive cycle

    At this point we have all the information we need. Since we know that current LA driving is very close to US06 and that the Leaf will go 100 miles on the LA4 drive cycle, simple proportions suggest that the Leaf will have a real world drive cycle (in cites like LA and Atlanta) of (176/390) X 100 miles = 45 miles. That of course won’t be exact but it’s not a bad first approximation.

    If we want to calculate what the range might be on any of the cycles, just take 70% of the 24 kWh pack, or 16.8 kWh, and divide it by the number of watts needed per mile for that cycle. Hence the highway would be 60 mile and your city driving would be around 75 miles. Not too shabby. Less than your mini-E but then again you won’t have to give the car back after a year!


  185. 185
    Grant

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:43 pm)

    For normal use, possibly, but I’m more worried about some of the other computer functions mentioned as I was googling more information, such as trying to act as an entertainment center, GPS, and notifying you of upcoming charge locations as you travel. It will definitely take some more wattage if they expect it to be used for passenger entertainment with extra screens.

    If they CAN keep it to basic functions, I will be both impressed and amazed.


  186. 186
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:49 pm)

    If Nissan is selling the Leaf for anything less than $40K, and if you can actually buy one, then all the start-ups are in trouble. But those are two big “ifs”.

    But if you just take what Nissan is saying at face value, this appears to be a bold move.


  187. 187
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:50 pm)

    Since Nissan makes their own batteries – they are better off than others like GM in this regard. May be they can make batteries for < $500/kwh …

    They do have a different recipe … Li-Manganese …


  188. 188
    statik

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:51 pm)

    I thought they had to build like a specific amout (as reflected as a percentage of sales) to qualify for that? Something like they had to have at least 11% of all sales to be a ZEV to get the alternate credits?

    I confess the whole CARB thing is a little confusing to me, and they keep putting out supplementary notes and adjustments, so I have practically given up on it.

    If you have a good handle on it, and can explain it out to me on how the credits specifically work and what the warranty requirements would be at certain thresholds, I would be grateful to hear it.

    If BEVs don’t have to hit this killer warranty threshold, that means they actually do have a huge pricing advantage over a EREV.

    Thoeretically, that would mean a EREV Volt at $40,000, would be $36,000 with the ICE stripped out, and then ANOTHER $8,000 stripped out because they wouldn’t have to cost in that full second pack. Right?

    Sometimes I swear the more you know…the less you know. I guess I’m going to have to sit down and read that whole PDF you sent just to understand it better….wish me luck, lol.


  189. 189
    Wally Kronkite

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:52 pm)

    Nissan LEAF is a 5-seater (Volt holds 4 dwarfs).

    Nissan LEAF is ZERO-EMISSIONS (Volt has ICE).

    Nissan LEAF is $20K (Volt is $40K).

    Nissan LEAF has 100 Mile Range (Volt can barely make 40 Miles).

    Nissan LEAF is Lightweight (Volt is extremely heavy).

    Nissan LEAF has Nissan Quality (Volt No Quality).

    Nissan LEAF is Widely Available (Volt made in limited quantities and available only at “select” dealerships).

    Nissan LEAF is the clear WINNER !
    ;-) + 1

    Even a caveman could figure this one out. Ha Ha


  190. 190
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:54 pm)

    “. . . . because I know GM engineering so well from analyzing it down through the decades
    hands on.
    blood from hundreds of cuts,
    burns from hundreds of burns
    , sweat from thirty seven years of Texas Summers working on GM engines hotter still,
    and frustrations .. . . ”
    _____________________________

    Somehow, this does not come off as an accolade for GM engineering. More like a grudging acknowledgment of steady work and income.

    Take it easy Dan. You’re not the only one with scarred knuckles here.


  191. 191
    DonC

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:54 pm)

    BillR asks So on a hot day, how does the LEAF cool its batteries? What about a -10F day after your car has sat outside at work all day long? If you drive aggressively for 40 to 100 miles (or til the battery is expended) every day, what happens to battery life?

    The battery pack is large enough so that the C rates and charge/discharge cycles won’t be a problem.

    As for temperature issues the answer would have to be: You plug it in. Once plugged in all problems are resolved, no? Nissan is very focused on building partnerships and rolling out these cars in places where the infrastructure is in place. When you think about the issue of battery maintenance the reason for the focus on charging infrastructure makes sense.


  192. 192
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:55 pm)

    The idea – atleast in Japan is to price the car exactly like a gas car – then lease the battery. The lease + electrcity charge per month would be similar to what you would pay for gas on a monthly basis.

    BTW, Leaf’s external dimensions are closer to Altima’s rather than Maxima or Sentra – though I’ve heard it compared to the small Versa.


  193. 193
    old man

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (2:56 pm)

    He better not in northern and central Calif. He will need it to tow his BEV. and will be muttering should have bought a Volt.


  194. 194
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:00 pm)

    statik says So technically, all those things you mentioned, are really not a concern at all, at least for 10 years, 150,000 miles. If Nissan screws it up, and they have to keep fixing/replacing the packs…that is on them. (This is also one of the main reasons we have so many EVs on the road today…oh wait, nevermind)

    Well it would be the reason why you might not be able to buy one of these guys — you’re at the wrong latitude! (Maybe global warming will solve this ….)

    Seriously, Nissan will roll this out in places with temperate climates and/or some public charging infrastructure.

    But I’d be happy killing the 10 year warranty so long as you knew you could buy a replacement pack. If you can plug the car in then you won’t have a big battery maintenance problem anywhere. If you can’t plug it in, and the climate isn’t temperate, they you can just keep buying batteries or … buy a different car.


  195. 195
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:02 pm)

    No. It is not compatible with Better Place system (see below).

    They plan to lease the battery in Japan – not in US.

    If the rebates come to about $10K – then the battery is taken care of. They can sell Leaf for the price of gas car + $10K.

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/242048/

    However, the car will not be compatible with the Quickdrop battery swap centres that alliance partner Renault has mooted for its new breed of EVs.

    “We don’t think Quickdrop centres are the right business model for Europe,” one Nissan executive told us.
    —-


  196. 196
    statik

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:03 pm)

    Up to page 4 of 41.

    …I hate CARB. Have I mentioned that before?


  197. 197
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:07 pm)

    Lease may be for other parts of the world. May not be for US.


  198. 198
    nasaman

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:09 pm)

    BillR, who initiated this thread, hit the bullseye when he said….
    “So on a hot day, how does the LEAF cool its batteries? What about a -10F day after your car has sat outside at work all day long? If you drive aggressively for 40 to 100 miles (or til the battery is expended) every day, what happens to battery life?

    “GM has devised answers for all these scenarios, and plans to offer a high tech battery pack that they can guarantee for 10 years/150,000 miles. Will Nissan do the same? This is where the plot thickens.”

    You’re absolutely right, Bill!

    I’m a 15-yr spacecraft battery specialist. There are hundreds of satellites orbiting Earth right now whose batteries will last for >15yrs —but ONLY because their batteries are tightly temperature controlled! I know, I know, they’re all state-of-the-art space-qualified batteries that cost more than a Tesla. But their specialized chemistry and/or raw material costs have almost NO effect on their cost —labor, life-testing, thermal-vacuum testing, etc, etc are the real cost drivers of spacecraft batteries. And the key to long life is tight temperature control, just as it is for earth-bound batteries! GM knows this & the Volt EREV was partially justified by the importance of having an ICE/gen to limit extreme cold or hot battery-killing thermal exposures. I seriously doubt if an EV’s batteries can be insulated well enough to prevent thermal extremes, so an EV’s battery capacity MUST allow for active battery heating/cooling to limit these extremes!

    In other words, an EV’s range anxiety effect can be worsened significantly if an LA BEV driver, for example, found himself forced to drive to (and stuck overnite) in Big Bear during very cold weather! No Kidding!!!


  199. 199
    DonC

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:09 pm)

    People don’t buy cars by calculating the dollars and cents of driving it. So why do this here?

    If your driving distances are relatively short, and you want an EV, and you like the idea of a simpler BEV rather than a more complex EREV, then it makes sense. I know people who would rather have this car than the Volt.

    Note that the Prius would be a better buy than either of these puppies, and that a Fit would be a better buy than a Prius. Like I said, people don’t buy cars based on calculating the cost per mile of their drive.


  200. 200
    EVNow

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:11 pm)

    The amount of info / marketing GM has done on Volt is perhaps unsurpassed in the history of automobiles.


  201. 201
    Dan Petit

     

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:16 pm)

    Experience is hard fought. Some benefit from it, some do not. Most want me to share it. Some do not.
    When sharing experience, sometimes you have to
    “not suffer the bullshit”,


  202. 202
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:19 pm)

    The point you need to keep in mind is that Big Bear, unlike space, has electrical outlets everywhere. As GM has mentioned, once the car is plugged in then all maintenance issues are removed because the battery is conditioned by the electrical current. So when you plug an EV (Leaf, Volt, whatever) in at your cabin and you have the same EV range as you would ordinarily have.

    It would be a bigger problem when going for hikes and having to park at the side of the road, but really the big issue for EVs in this regard is range. Big Bear is not all that close to LA.

    Another big problem with taking EVs to Big Bear is that for efficiency reasons none of these cars will be AWD and it really helps to have AWD when going to Big Bear in the winter. Plus you’re always hauling junk to and from the cabin so it helps to have a bigger car.


  203. 203
    koz

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:23 pm)

    I don’t know about a “good handle” on it. I guess it’s more like a “fair” handle for a non-lawyer, non-politician layman. Basically they have rules that defines what qualifies for the various levels of credit (ZEV, PZEV. Enhanced ATPZEV, ATPZEV). Then they have credit requirements for manufacturers based on volume. There are certain ZEV credit requirements that must be met but allow PZEV to offset some or I believe all of those ZEV credits with various amounts of the different PZEV credit. Basically the less potential emmission the great the credit (plug-ins count more than HEVs, longer range plug-ins count more than shorter range). There is a complicated formula to figure out what credits a manufacturer needs and what they will get for the volumes sold of the various credit classifications.
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/2008zevfacts.pdf.

    It is clear that only PZEVs are required to carry the 10yr warranty at this time but they keep updating the ZEV and PZEV definitions, adding cataegories and changing how the credits are applied. I doubt they will ever require a BEV, Fuel Cell, or other ZEV to carry a 10yr warranty because they have zero tailpipe emissions regardless of the state of the energy storage mechanism (battery or otherwise). For this same reason, I think GM should be pouring mega-lobbying into getting the rules amended so series EREVs aren’t required to carry a 10yr battery warranty either. Perhaps they would have to include a mechanism to disable the ICE if the battery falls below a certain capacity.

    Yes, I think the Volt could be offered for a significant savings sans ER components. I would peg the components costs higher and the baked in warranty costs lower but overall $10-12K sounds about real to me. Of course this may be partially eaten up by setting the BEV at a profitable MSRP. I also think they would be best served by adding some battery to be on par with the 100 mile BEVs. They could include 26KWh and be able to warranty 100 miles for 6yr/100,000 miles. This could be sold for @$36K and be at a little better profit(loss) position than the EREV Volt.


  204. 204
    old man

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:26 pm)

    Some thoughts.

    How big is this battery and what is its shape

    How is it warmed OR cooled after being parked for a long time?

    The Volt is suppose to be using only 50% of the battery. What percentage is the Leaf using?

    My impression from the photos. Will it hold a case of beer and a box of tooth picks in the trunk? AND if it is about the size of a Yaris, which I rented this week while on a bit of holiday. [ 5 passengers ] means you have 3 SMALL adults or young children in the back seat. I had 3 adults back there and the only thing good about that was I was not one of them.


  205. 205
    CarlosG

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:31 pm)

    The ride in the Nissan LEAF is extremely smooth and quite.

    Very Nice. :-)


  206. 206
    Wally Kronkite

    -7

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:33 pm)

    Nissan LEAF is a 5-seater (Volt holds 4 dwarfs).
    Nissan LEAF is ZERO-EMISSIONS (Volt has ICE).
    Nissan LEAF is $20K (Volt is $40K).
    Nissan LEAF has 100 Mile Range (Volt can barely make 40 Miles).
    Nissan LEAF is Lightweight (Volt is extremely heavy).
    Nissan LEAF has Nissan Quality (Volt No Quality).
    Nissan LEAF is Widely Available (Volt made in limited quantities and available only at “select” dealerships).

    Nissan LEAF is the clear WINNER !
    ;-) + 1

    Even a caveman could figure this one out. Ha Ha


  207. 207
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:40 pm)

    Nasaman,

    From Battery University:

    “To maximize service life, satellite batteries are kept at a cool temperature and undergo a very shallow discharge of only 10% before recharge. Nickel-based batteries in space also receive a periodic full discharge. This regime allows ten of thousands of cycles. Closer to earth, the ideal charge/discharge patterns cannot be scheduled; neither is the temperature always perfect. As a result, a replacement will be required sooner or later. ”

    Is the “10% shallow discharge” accurate?

    http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-36.htm


  208. 208
    Crystal

     

    Crystal
     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:41 pm)

    August 2, 2009

    Mark this date in your Calendar. History will show that this was the beginning of the mass electrification of the American auto industry (kicking and screaming).

    Thank you Nissan.

    August 2, 2009


  209. 209
    Herm

     

    Herm
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:43 pm)

    “I don’t get it, does C-Class really mean well-equipped Sentra to them, or are they crossed up somehow? And they also say ‘additionally’ it is expected to qualify, as in, post pricing structure in the range of a C-segment vehicle.”

    I think it means a well equipped Sentra, the Altima is a midsize car.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_car

    “Compact car is a largely North American term denoting an automobile smaller than a mid-size car, but larger than an international supermini variant, similarly recognized in much of the world as a “C-segment” (between B- and D-segment) vehicles. Compact cars usually have wheelbases between 100 inches (2,540 mm) and 105 inches (2,667 mm). The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) defines a “Compact” car as measuring between 100 cubic feet (2.8 m3) and 109 cubic feet (3.1 m3) of combined passenger and cargo volume capacity. “


  210. 210
    Magnus Python

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:44 pm)

    You just got to luv those highly-efficient and highly-aerodynamic headlamps. Props to Nissan.


  211. 211
    koz

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:47 pm)

    I feel your pain


  212. 212
    Mordeth13

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (3:48 pm)

    This is an awesome car. I will replace my Suzuki Swift with this beauty.


  213. 213
    CarlosG

    -2

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:02 pm)

    Nissan brought the goods this time baby.

    See it and weep. We are witnessing history in the making here.

    Somebody pass me a handkerchief please.


  214. 214
    Elvis Clinton

     

    Elvis Clinton
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:04 pm)

    Finally a pure electric. This will make a great second car. I cannot wait to see millions of these parked in American driveways. Sweet.


  215. 215
    koz

     

    koz
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:05 pm)

  216. 216
    Herm

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:06 pm)

    I think your numbers are good DonC..

    you come up with 176 wh/mile for the US-LA4 cycle, and Nissan says it will do 100 miles on that cycle.. from that we can work out a usable pack capacity of 17.6kwh.. thus Nissan is using 73% of the total pack capacity, and that is close to industry standards of 70% for usable capacity with lithium cells.

    I think your highway numbers are pessimistic, after all the Mini has the aerodynamics of a brick.


  217. 217
    Lance

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:10 pm)

    I will buy one. I drive 35 miles one-way to work. This is perfect. Sorry Volt fans but 40 miles just won’t due for me.
    As a bonus it appears very affordable. It’s a double win.


  218. 218
    Cindy Morgan

     

    Cindy Morgan
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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:12 pm)

    I think it looks cute. One hundred miles is not that bad. I can make that work no problemo.


  219. 219
    Islander

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:13 pm)

    I like the looks… No jellybean or wedge of cheese. The different technologies will appeal to different people depending on their budget, mission and life style. The more options the better for all.

    Voltec is for me. I can only afford one car and have multiple missions with occasional range needed. I wish GM would go buck wild and drop the tec in different cars – early. i.e. a small SUV like the size of a Honda CRV; a hot convertible; a sleek sedan and a pick up truck. … one can hope!

    Go Volt!


  220. 220
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:16 pm)

    One interesting aspect of the Leaf is the recipe for the battery. EVNow mentioned above that Nissan is using Li-manganese. That’s more or less the same type of polymer battery cell GM is getting from LG Chem. The cells also have the same shape and fit into the modules in about the same way. Seems like the there is a confluence of what batteries are considered optimal for EV use.

    My guess is that using manganese, which is a less expensive material, for the cathode cuts the price, thus making this chemistry the most desirable. The flat shape of the cells is also an advantage.


  221. 221
    Roger Dawtrey

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:19 pm)

    That LEAF plug is perfect. And in a great location. Nissan must have really done their homework on this car.


  222. 222
    EcoGeek

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:21 pm)

    They need a charging port in the back so you can tow a range extender if it becomes necessary. I’d much rather rent a towable generator every so often than to lug it around 24/7… that’s just my preference.


  223. 223
    nasaman

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:28 pm)

    You ask, “Is the “10% shallow discharge” accurate?” Yes, some spacecraft ground controller’s, as part of their battery reconditioning protocol, will discharge a battery by 10% or so in order to obtain a distinct “rollover” effect during battery “topoff” to be sure the battery has been fully charged while avoiding excessive exothermic self heating. I am not aware whether GM or other automotive battery users plan periodic battery reconditioning —but when the multitudes of patents the industry is filing become searchable, we’ll know the answer —so stay tuned.


  224. 224
    nasaman

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:32 pm)

    Don, all I can say is that I’ve driven from LA (Playa del Rey) to Big Bear many times in my motor home and I can never remember having an option to “plug in”, although I’m sure they exist.


  225. 225
    Dan Petit

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:35 pm)

    Hey Nasaman,

    Those are great facts to know. That also explains why, in the Chrysler charging system, which has a battery temperature sensor, (which tells the PCM what the battery temperature is for precise charging and charge maintenance), this would be why those batteries last 18 months to 30 months longer in those vehicles!!


  226. 226
    Lwesson

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:35 pm)

    RB, no offense but I just retrieved that very astronomy book last week and there was that face! Back then there was some silly notion of beings frolicking about on the Red Planet. Dates me! LOL! Me and H.G. Wells

    Provocative and distinctive.———Higgins


  227. 227
    Canuk

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:36 pm)

    Pretty reasonable point of view, Statik – take care for now, eh.

    Canuk.


  228. 228
    carcus1

     

    carcus1
     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:38 pm)

    Ok. I took the Battery U referenced to mean that the satellite batteries pretty much never got a deep discharge. They just used 10% or so of the total capacity (i.e. 90% SOC) and then got topped back off . . . and that’s how they achieved such a long battery life.

    /maybe we’re talking about 2 different things here ?


  229. 229
    nasaman

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:44 pm)

    Carcus1 — I can guarantee you that NO SATELLITES have been designed or launched that utilize only 10% of their full battery capacity. Launch costs (based largely on satellite/battery weight) are too high to justify such a severe constraint on battery operation!


  230. 230
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (4:55 pm)

    Hey Don C,
    Can the prismatic shape be recycled easier (than cylindrical of course), but, I was wondering if you knew if so, would the process just scrub and resurface/micro-grind the plates and the plates kept intact, to be reused, or, would the materials be totally melted down more aggressively for a recycling process?


  231. 231
    carcus1

     

    carcus1
     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (5:04 pm)

    What would you say is a typical Depth of Discharge that a 5+ year satellite battery system is designed for?


  232. 232
    DonC

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (5:14 pm)

    Not sure I’m following you here. I’m assuming that you’re driving to your cabin in a car. They all have electricity. Even if you took a motor home, wouldn’t you be able to plug in at the motor home park? I guess I’m not understanding the scenario.

    My point was that that as soon a you plug a BEV in then you don’t need to worry about the battery (as far as temperature is concerned). If you’re talking about just parking the car by the side of the road somewhere then you couldn’t condition the battery but range limitations seem a bigger deal than temperature. For example, there is no way that a Leaf could make it from LA to Big Bear in the first place. I would never try it.

    If you’re talking about temperature killing some of the range, yes of course. But again that seems more an issue of range than of conditioning since when it’s running the pack would be able to both heat and cool itself, assuming there was enough juice.


  233. 233
    DonC

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (5:16 pm)

    No idea Dan. Sorry. Generally when you recycle the battery you’re recovering the raw materials.


  234. 234
    HyperMiler

    +2

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (5:18 pm)

    Unfortunately, Leap’s battery has a spec life of only 62.5K miles, this is not a joke. Japanese reports say this battery is similar to i-MIEV’s battery in terms of technology and durability. http://www.eetindia.co.in/ART_8800579150_1800007_NT_8dcf4e82.HTM

    In the US, Nissan will probably have to lease the battery instead of selling it, since it is not possible to meet California warranty requirement with this battery.


  235. 235
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (5:26 pm)

    I sure hope that the Volt can be towed behind a motor home.

    I’m asking for the impossible to try to get a Volt in time for the Texas Renewable Energy Roundup in Fredericksburg TX in September of 2010, but I sure would like to show (a/my) Volt there ahead of time.

    I usually tow a 40 AER BEV to the Renewable Energy Roundup for someone in the Austin EV Club. (A group of extremely talented and capable EE’s who are working with Lith/ion cells.) (VERY capable EE’s indeed!).

    But that towing question did come to mind. Otherwise, I’m confident that at least I could get a volunteer to drive the Motor home while I drive the Volt. (I know I could get a waiting list of my own to drive my Volt to the Renewable Energy Roundup (lol/NOT!) if I were actually able to work that out somehow in ’10. (09-26th-ish-09 is the date for next month).

    This year, (Next month), of course, I will be co-hosting a talk about the all-around-design wisdom of Volt along with a speaker from Austin Energy. Lyle’s site has been invaluable for this years’ presentations of course.


  236. 236
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (5:44 pm)

    I could use a very large poster of a Volt. Does anyone know how I can get one, also, of the Battery, and the Range Extender/Motor compartment, as well as an Interior shot?

    If someone could be so kind to mail a set to my home address, I’d really appreciate it. I’m listed in the phone book.

    BTW the talk can be downloaded shortly thereafter.


  237. 237
    koz

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:13 pm)

    What CA BEV battery requirements are you referring to? CARB does not require a 10yr warranty for ZEV, only for PZEV. BEVs are ZEV.


  238. 238
    Joe

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:31 pm)

    It seems a great majority on this post is ready to switch from the Volt to this Nissan. I have never seem so many turncoats! I don’t know what the hype is all about especially when Nissan does not even give the price and specs. Furthermore, many on this site Volt site complain when GM does not give all it’s specs and yet, Nissan gets all this glory. Get real!!


  239. 239
    Lurker

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:40 pm)

    I didn’t say I would not purchase an electric car. I will clearly say I will not buy that terribly unattractive Nissan. I bet $100 bucks that the drivers do have the Hawaiian shirt, Geritol and the same hair cut as their partner. Clearly it’s that crowd that can easily be seen behind the wheel. Oil will and does touch every part of your life electric or not. Diesel to transport every single good you buy, Tractor tailors, Plastics, production Plants, heating your home, toothpaste etc. You can not escape it. I would love to see the looks on peoples faces when you say you drive a “Leaf”. They will say it must be that terrible unattractive thing in the parking lot.


  240. 240
    Reality

    +1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:45 pm)

    That car is dead before it even gets off the line.
    Say hello to the new Edsel.


  241. 241
    Joe

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (6:52 pm)

    Knowing Japan, they will probably dump these vehicles to the USA just so they can capture the market. We on the other hand, are stupid enough to subsidize their hybrids and junk for cash even though Japan has a closed car market. When will we learn?
    Only when we run out of money.


  242. 242
    Joe

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:02 pm)

    We sure have a weird one here!!!


  243. 243
    Tagamet

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:06 pm)

    Nice measured upbeat point of view, so who are you and what have you done with our statik? Seriously though, I agree with everything except the 20 years of coexistence, I think it’ll be longer as the erev is moved to larger and larger vehicles, the battery power marches along as well to support longer ranged BEV’s, and the public gradually accepts both. Note: “gradually” may well be every EREV and BEV vehicle that can be put on the road! There’s just quite a few vehicles out there.
    JMO,
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    LJGTVWOTR!!**************NPNS


  244. 244
    Herm

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:18 pm)

    “Nissan said the total cost of running the car would be less than for a petrol-powered equivalent over the lease period.””

    Very interesting, some rumors running around that the battery is $10k, how much is a 3 year lease for that?


  245. 245
    Joe

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:20 pm)

    Great perception Don C. I think most on this site are not mechanically oriented and don’t understand the mechanics of and electric car. GM is doing it the right way and the only way.


  246. 246
    Joe

    +1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:23 pm)

    Well said Dan Petit!!


  247. 247
    Eat This Pie

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:27 pm)

    “Watch out! – - The RANGE ANXIETY BOOGY-MAN’s gonna get you!”

    “Booga – Booga!”

    Is no one sick of the idiotic range phobia twaddle on this board???


  248. 248
    Joe

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:30 pm)

    Try explaining that to LEAF lovers. I think they have no clue.


  249. 249
    old man

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:35 pm)

    Are you telling us that a BEV can have an inferior battery as compared to the battery in an E-REV? That seems bassackwards to me.


  250. 250
    Joe

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:36 pm)

    Lyle’s site is good but is not a true pro GM site. I can understand why GM will or now has their own Volt site.


  251. 251
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:37 pm)

    Total wag, maybe $175/ mo. I plugged some numbers into a lease calculator. But it’s all a guess.

    My guess is just for the battery, not the car and battery.


  252. 252
    Joe

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:42 pm)

    Don’t you know that the Prius is a hybrid and the Cruze is not? the Cruze is expected to be the best in it’s class. Is that good enough for you?


  253. 253
    Gary

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:48 pm)

    I don’t know how such conjecture can be made at this point.


  254. 254
    Gary

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:50 pm)

    After the leases are up, will they all be crushed and soon thereafter everybody wil have a hate-on for Nissan? [Rolling Eyes]


  255. 255
    Peder

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (7:52 pm)

    Thanks Don for the formulas.

    I’m hoping I can keep it another year, but I am prepared to give it back. :(

    The Q’s of range anxiety has appeared many times, I think that is a multi answer Q depending on your situation.

    I have no range issues with the mini-E. We have a Ford Escape along with the Mini-E and the gem car. The Mini-E can handle both my wife and my commute so we alternate the fun. We then use the car for our errends and going out.

    In fact we are putting 150% of the miles on the Mini-E that we did on the ice car (2000 a month instead of 1500 a month) due to the fact that we use it more often, and sun power is cheaper that gas.

    It covers 98% of what we do including trips to San Diego, Ramona, Orange county and Temecula. The only time we need to take the Escape is for long trips (once every two three months) and large purchase shopping trips (more than five or six shopping bags).

    The gem car is for the beach and kayaking, trips tpo the store.

    So back to the LEAF, It would work for both of our commutes, give us four or five seats instead of two, but be a little less fun to drive.

    If you have a second car in the family for longer trips, range anxiety is no big deal and I think you will find that you will put more miles on your BEV like the LEAF than your regular gas car.


  256. 256
    Dave K.

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:18 pm)

    Merge onto the freeway. The traffic is flowing at 70mph. Drive for 15 minutes. Think about either turning electric drain items off, or heading back to the house. Arrive home with 15% of charge remaining. Wish you had bought an EREV.

    =D~


  257. 257
    koz

     

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     Says

     

    Aug 2nd, 2009 (8:52 pm)

    I’m telling you what the regs say. They are designed to reduce polution. ZEVs are considered zero pollution vehicles regardless of the state of its energy source. PZEV have a polluting energy source so they are treated differently. If they battery isn’t working properly then they will pollute more than they have gotten credits for. FWIW I don’t agree with series EREVs being subject to the same warranty requirements as a Prius but that is the way the current regs are written.

    I also don’t believe the traction automotive battery with a 10yr warranty in an EV is in any way necessarily superior to a battery with a shorter warranty. Actually, from a total battery cost perspective ($/mile for vehicle lifetime battery cost) the shorter warrantee has less baked in cost. Warrantees aren’t a gift from the Gods. They cost money and just like every other for of insurance, on average the consumer loses out. Everybody loves the warm, protective blanket of insurance but it costs money. The original purpose and only “real” value to it for the consumerbis to insure against costs that one cannot afford to bear.


  258. 258
    koz

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:05 pm)

    Twaddle- cool word.

    I especially love it when the BEV haters insist to the BEV owners that range anxiety is real and will be sure to “get ‘em”. I don’t understand how people with zero experience with something can be so cock-sure of their opinion that they know better about what others, that do have experience, would or should be feeling.

    How about we encourage all “comers” to take the road and let the markets decide. My guess is there is plenty to go around and both can be successful.


  259. 259
    Dave K.

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:19 pm)

    koz,

    No one hates the BEV. It’s the lack of range that is the concern.

    At a 30k price tag I think it best to go $5k higher for an extended range electric vehicle. Both systems have strong points. The main strength of the BEV is the total lack of exhaust fumes.

    I’m on my way to a Dodger game. I’ll need one recharge stop. I pull into the recharge station and find an open hook up. I connect, feed the timer a dollar, and wait 10 minutes for a peak charge.

    By saying, “Use your van for longer trips. And the BEV for short hops”. The clean air issue is a wash. Any hate in this?

    =D~


  260. 260
    Mike-o-Matic

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:20 pm)

    IMHO, while GM’s working on their site, this one remains superior in its simplicity and usability. GM’s new site has still got a lot of rough spots, despite their having a lot more $$$ to throw at it. It’ll no doubt improve… but in the meantime, cut Lyle (and/or his staffers, if he has any) some slack.


  261. 261
    Dave G

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:27 pm)

    Seems like they might have taken some of the boxfish research from Mercedes:
    http://www.dancewithshadows.com/auto/mercedes-benz-bionic-car-gallery.asp


  262. 262
    jdsv

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:44 pm)

    I agree. I expect that, to recoup costs (and protect their other enterprises), they’ll take full advantage of advertising the rebate. Why would they leave that factored out, when they are the first out of the gate, and every one of these they sell will get the rebate?

    Unless they go for broke and price it just below 30 to advertise it as such, we’re still probably looking at a low-30s automobile. That’s with battery and after rebate.

    One question : if the car is sold without the battery (to be leased or purchased separately), will the rebate still apply? How separated can these two become within the scope of the bill to still qualify for the rebate?


  263. 263
    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:55 pm)

    Good point Dave…

    Most of the new 40+ mpg ICE, hybrid, and EV vehicles fit the “fish” description in the looks department. If you check gm volt dot com 2008 threads you will find many people mention the fish-like appearance of the new cars.

    I am on record as calling the front of the Volt “carp-like”. This is not a put down. It’s part of the form/function fish CAD tack that car manufactures are stuck on.

    It’s time to introduce an EREV SUV (or EREV crossover). Just 30-33 miles of initial electric range is okay.

    http://garfwod.250free.com/chevy%20orlando%20rear.jpg

    =D~


  264. 264
    koz

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (9:58 pm)

    Pretty reasonable comments but your subdued bias shows in the van example. If the Volt would work for those longer trips then why pair the BEV with a Van? Why not a Volt, a Prius, or other high mileage vehicle? Even if it is paired with a Van for a couple of long trips per year, it still isn’t a wash for for most drivers. And if it is a wash for gasoline consumption then $5k savings is a lot for a lot of people.

    I’m not telling people that a BEV or EREV is better for them. I see benefits and markets for both. It is just annoying to see pot shots taken at either one without good merit, similar to your comments to Peder below. I only wish it was a US company announcing this and receiving $1.6B in taxpayer loans, but better Nissan than nobody.


  265. 265
    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:05 pm)

    Here’s a good picture of the front of the Volt.

    http://garfwod.250free.com/volt%2009-26%20011.jpg

    =D~


  266. 266
    Keith

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:30 pm)

    Can you imagine a AAA service vehicle coming to the rescue of a stranded Electric vehicle with a fully charged Super Capacitor that has twice the power that your car battery can hold and giving it a fast charge in 10 minutes , or until the power balances between the battery in your car and the capacitors in the service vehicle .
    Simple physics . Dial in the volts , dial in the amps set the cycles per second and press the “charge” button . By the time the receipt is written up your car is fully charged up and you are on your way again .


  267. 267
    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:45 pm)

  268. 268
    carcus1

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:51 pm)

    Off topic and hot off the press:

    IEA Economist Warns about World Oil Supply
    http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5634#comments_top

    “The IEA estimates that the decline in oil production in existing fields is now running at 6.7 per cent a year compared to the 3.7 per cent decline it had estimated in 2007, which it now acknowledges to be wrong.”

    This is out of character for an IEA wheel to speak this way, might see an oil price spike on this.


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    Keith

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (10:58 pm)

    Dan ,
    Don’t get upset , Canadians are independent free thinkers for the most part while Americans will follow directions usually . You are respected .
    Same people just different way of thinking .
    We all know that you have the skill and experience and wisdom and I might add the very best of intentions . Canadians just like to do things their own way , right or wrong , it is a Canadian thing .
    Example:
    Americans see GM cars made in China as Chinese cars , while Canadians see them as American cars made in China . Two totally different things . GM , Ford , and Chrysler cars made in Canada are American cars as Canadians see it , while Americans see them as FOREIGN CARS made in Canada .


  270. 270
    grat

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:03 pm)

    Yes, but the concept Volt was just that… a concept. With it’s low slung, wide appearance, flared arches and 20-inch rims, it was a formidable looking beast… so formidable, in fact, that it literally scared the air around it into having convulsions so hideous that the car may as well have been going sideways.

    They didn’t release drag numbers, but apparently they were really, really bad… something you don’t want with an electric vehicle at this point in time. When we get really efficient electrical storage and transfer technology, and we don’t care about drag, maybe that’ll be the 2019 Volt design.


  271. 271
    grat

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:07 pm)

    I’m not a BEV hater, but as a single guy, I have difficulty justifying a motorcycle and a car. I can’t justify two car-shaped vehicles, so any car I buy needs to be practical, and meet my needs– and if that need includes driving 130 miles to my mother’s house for an emergency, then a 100 mile BEV does not meet that need.

    An EREV will, a true hybrid will, and one day, I’m sure BEV’s will. Until then, I don’t have range anxiety– the car simply doesn’t fit my list of criteria for a car-shaped vehicle.


  272. 272
    EVNow

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:07 pm)

    Similar to Prius in size …

    Wheelbase 106.3 in (2700 mm) – Sentra 105.7, Prius 106.3
    Length 175.0 in (4445 mm) – Sentra 180.1, Versa 169.1, Prius 175.6
    Width 69.7 in (1770 mm) – Sentra 70.5, 68.7

    But since the battery is below the floor/seat – trunc has good space and depth.


  273. 273
    Dave K.

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:08 pm)

    hee hee… statik,

    Now I now know how you feel. I present a honest case for the negative of a question and earn a minus one for it.

    Will be fun to see which cars the gm volt dot com posters eventually buy. And to see the follow up reviews of these.

    Off to work now. See you all again soon.

    =D~


  274. 274
    EVNow

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:11 pm)

    Why would Prius be better ? After rebate Leaf will probably cost the same as Prius.


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    dudley

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:34 pm)

    You say “Leap’s battery has a spec life of only 62.5K miles” and mention “Japanese Reports”. Then, you cite an article from an Indian source title “ASESC starts Li-ion battery trial production”, which requires registration to view.

    Please cite more “Japanese Reports” to back up this “62.5K miles” limitation.


  276. 276
    Lurtz (Lawrence Makoare)

     

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    Aug 2nd, 2009 (11:41 pm)

    gravatar? black hole? …what?

    (running Firefox with NoScript, I’m guessing I’m missing something)


  277. 277
    sweets

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (12:09 am)

    Nissan has opened a new chapter in its ambitious plans to be a global leader in pure electric zero emissions vehicles.


  278. 278
    DonC

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (12:39 am)

    So back to the LEAF, It would work for both of our commutes, give us four or five seats instead of two, but be a little less fun to drive.

    Something like this would work for me as well because commutes are reasonably short and there would be more cars than drivers. But most people don’t have that flexibility and need one car to fulfill several functions. For these people the Volt makes more sense than a BEV. (I’d use the BEV like you use the GEM and the Volt like you use the Mini).

    Let me give you a scenario of how a BEV might not work for you. Let’s say that either the commute changes for both of you or you move somewhere which isn’t as close to your jobs. In this case something like the Leaf might become problematic whereas the Volt would (probably) not. Keep in mind that your Mini-E has a longer range than the Leaf and also that the Leaf is probably slightly underpowered for LA freeways.

    I love the simplicity of a BEV drive train in the abstract as much as the next person, and I really like what Nissan is doing here, but with current battery prices a BEV isn’t the most versatile option out there.


  279. 279
    Mark Z

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (12:51 am)

    Lurtz:

    Amazing you mentioned Citroen, because that’s what I thought when posting about the back end. But a Google image search of “Citroen” didn’t show what I remembered from European vacations many years ago. Today I typed “Citroen DS rear” in Google images and there are the roof lines I remembered. Typing “Mazda 5 rear” also shows a overhanging roof on some models. It’s just a personal choice and some will love it and others won’t.

    I find the front end of the Nissan Leaf most interesting. Depending on the angle and speed of the video, the personality of the car’s “face” seems to change. Most likely it’s based on the emotion of the viewer as well.

    Just like the Prius, I am sure that in time the Leaf will become a swan as gas prices rise and other paint colors are considered.


  280. 280
    Mark Z

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (1:12 am)

    Dave G: “The best thing about this car is the plug port.”

    The front center design will be appreciated if charging station installations are not standardized on the drivers side.

    Towards the end the video offered good instruction: Remember to open the main plug port door at the dashboard before getting out of the car!


  281. 281
    Herm

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (1:55 am)

    $15k for the car, similar to a loaded Sentra plus either a battery lease or purchase for an additional of $15k. Total $30k minus the federal $7500 tax credit.

    Battery cost ranges from $500 kwh (LG) down to $300 kwh for BYD so maybe Nissan’s cost is $12k to $7.2k, no idea on the cost of battery packaging, perhaps not as much as the Volt since the car has been designed from the start as a BEV.


  282. 282
    Martin

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (3:20 am)

    More competition ev = good.
    But for the life of me ….. why do americans want light colored lower trim?
    With shoe scuff marks a new car with light trim looks crap in under a week.
    Funny how Japanese now cater to american style / not euro practicality on internal designs…………………


  283. 283
    FME III

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (5:39 am)

    I’ll eat my hat it they get this car to market under $30k.

    GM was gonna do that with the Volt, too…. and then they started adding up the numbers.

    Given the size of the battery pack in the Leaf, it’s a tall order to bring the car in at that price.

    The X factor in all this is how they are going to account for warranty costs. We’ve all talked about GM having to include the cost of a replacement battery pack and the affect this had on in its price structure.

    And the second X factor will be:How much loss Nissan is willing to take to claim primacy from Mitsu in the BEV market?


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    FME III

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (5:58 am)

    All I can say is, God save the early adopters who plop down money on a pre-order for a Leaf, or an i-MiEV for that matter. There’s no way in hell I’d commit to buying a car without knowing how far it goes.

    And we won’t know the answer until the Leaf’s on the road with real drivers using it in real-world, daily driving.


  285. 285
    Herm

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (6:09 am)

    its mostly organic compounds and plastic with some lithium metal.. everything is so cheap its mostly not worth it to recycle.. I guess you could always grind it up, burn it and generate some electricity. Nothing is toxic so you could just bury it in a landfill.


  286. 286
    jdsv

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (6:11 am)

    Is the tow truck going to have zero emissions as well?


  287. 287
    Herm

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (6:17 am)

    “I’m a 15-yr spacecraft battery specialist. There are hundreds of satellites orbiting Earth right now whose batteries will last for >15yrs —but ONLY because their batteries are tightly temperature controlled! ”

    We all know temperature swings in space are extremely violent and severe, of course batteries in spacecraft have to be carefully insulated. No BEV will ever be exposed to anything that nasty, unless the car catches on fire while parked on the North Pole.


  288. 288
    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (6:49 am)

    I don’t think that is it at all, that shallow and simplistic characterization of Americans.

    Maybe I am different than many other Americans, but I do not see EV’s or E-REV’s as a commodity. People that treat nearly every product like a commodity, don’t really care deeply about respecting the manufacturer. People that treat nearly every product like a commodity don’t have any pride whatsoever in even the product they sell. That keeps that commodity-seller at a very narrow and shallow mindset in selling it or representing it, and most certainly, understanding it.

    Commodity brokers are what they are.
    Shoveling auto parts out the door with hearing the customer say “there is an oxygen sensor that is lean” (which 95% of the time, means it’s OK), and then, loading up a customer with anything remotely related to what someone said is a commodity broker, not an auto parts store.

    Americans do indeed have a different view than non-Americans. We take deep pride in what we produce. We treat the best of our products as a workmanship- philosophy, not a commodity or like dollars themselves.

    The Volt is a philosophy. A philosophy that runs to the deepest of American convictions that Americans know that to build something, you do not rape the environment to produce something that was not worth the carbon generated to produce it in the first place. (Like petroleum locked into sand).

    Total-carbon account for any commodity you wish, and you will then define the difference of what American-made means to us.

    Buying a tool that you can only use several times, then you must throw away is carbon-foolhardiness. Buy a well made American tool or piece of equipment, pay more, use it to the wise extent you need while taking extremely good care of it, and then, after you are done with it, get most of your money back for it on the internet, less the value of the work you performed. Someone else then does the same thing. Smart usage of the environment. VERY SMART.

    Making good products takes education. Education needs a decision to mentally commit to working your brain, not clicking a mouse. Forcing yourself to do something you “hate”, like learning CARB regulations, is learning, (and then having some “depth” for intellectual validity instead of a “sentence salad” all over the place).

    Calling people to their own self-discipline to learn is not something at all related to what a few people perceive as
    “forcing” any opinion on them. It is more that sentence-structures that fly all over the place from mouse clicks all over the place are a taxing expenditure of shallow meaning to spend time to read.

    When commodity brokers are not somehow able to put those facts(?) together for themselves in a compact manner, what’s that worth? To them or anyone else?
    (“Less being more” if the intellectual “due diligence”/effort was done in the first place.) Otherwise, it is not worth reading, and I ought to just click a minus vote on it, move on, down the thread.
    Maybe Lyle might have “voter registration” for us to see the areas of the World and their voting trends. That way, we could see the dynamics of how possibly various groupings of voters react, wisely or not.


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    Jim in PA

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (8:17 am)

    This really drives home the point that range anxiety isn’t the only technical shortfal of BEVs; the other technical shortfall is recharge time. If you do manage to make it home on your battery charge, it will then take 8 hours before you can hit the road again with a full charge.

    Contrary to the FUGLY comments above, it’s not a bad looking car. Although the drive range is not explicitly given in the article, I assume a 24 kwh battery gives about 60 miles of driving, since the Volt’s 16 kwh battery gives 40 miles. If so, if they can offer this somewhere in the 25k range, it will find its niche (albeit a small one).


  290. 290
    HyperMiler

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (9:10 am)

    Well that article is an exact word for word English translation of an original Japanese article. It is just happened to be hosted on an Indian site.


  291. 291
    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (9:20 am)

    I thought it was a little long winded and preachy myself, lol

    See ya later…you hoser.


  292. 292
    N Riley

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (9:36 am)

    I like the looks, generally speaking. It has a look of its own without resorting to the “bubble” look of some proposed EVs. It will be interesting to see how they price it and how it performs after it is in production. Its all good.


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    EVO

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (9:55 am)

    All the range anxiety twaddle about BEVs on this board got me thinking. So I went on a 320 mile road cruise this weekend with my 40 mile AER BEV. I admit, 320 miles in a weekend is unimpressive compared to the more than 500 miles of hard core off road riding in 24 hours of the winning team at the 24 Hours of Electricross, also using a 40 AER vehicle, but it just shows how silly the range anxiety boogie man argument is. Sure, you have to know what you are doing and plan ahead a little, but I enjoyed the brief drink at poolside when I topped off. Luxury resorts are especially accomodating of BEVs, as they’ve seen this coming for a long time and they are currently desperate for my hooch.

    There are way more electric outlets in the world than there are gas stations, and outlets are already more uniformly distributed than gas stations.


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    EVO

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (9:57 am)

    Why would “V6 like performance” be out out place in the Tesla Model S?


  295. 295
    EVO

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (10:08 am)

    Also:

    http://www.renewamericaroadtrip.com/

    If a couple of kids can drive a production BEV entirely across the US in a reasonable time (it was done with the EV-1, too, back in the day), you think you can manage to go the store and back for milk and a loaf of bread?

    Nothing against EREVs, though. Buy one if you want.


  296. 296
    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (10:46 am)

    Nissan actual said in their chat a ditty about performance:

    Q: What is the 0-60? What is the top speed?

    A: No exact 0-60 at this point, but it accels like a V6. We are targeting a top speed of 85 mph.

    Not really specific answer to anything, but I think it tells us they are looking at ‘decent’ performance, I don’t think a 0-60 around 9 seconds seems too far off.


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    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (10:50 am)

    I’m curious just to look over that data Don, it seems like a interesting read, what is the source/link on that? Who tested those numbers, and what analog where they using for a ‘typical’ car?

    …so many questions when it comes to electric vehicles.


  298. 298
    statik

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (10:53 am)

    That is the icon beside your name, basically a avatar, if you hit up the gravatar site, you can associate your email address with a picture…so I call it gravatar. Everywhere you use your email that has the function enabled, you get the little picture.

    Anyone who is anyone has one, lol.

    Go do it! — http://en.gravatar.com/


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    Luke

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (10:54 am)

    Then you owe me $100. Depending on the capabilities and prices of the other cars that are available in early 2011, anyway.


  300. 300
    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:03 am)

    I love you sharing, I value your input. I think maybe you misunderstand what I was saying. But even when you say something, it is still a opinion, albeit perhaps a very knowledgeable one, it is not the bible…when GM itself says something, (or Toyota, or Mitsu) it is not the bible, no matter what their conviction.

    When you say something like “the very best of every practical way to do everything is the way GM is doing it” it not only sounds radical, it stiffles every single other person’s opinion of something.

    I’ll give you a example, I was real confident that GM was going to fold up in 2008 and be forced into bankruptcy, I was also pretty sure it was going into some kind of gov’t help or GSB. However, I didn’t plow everyone under all the time and say 100% GM is going bankrupt and 100% the government is going to bail them out. I could have…and then if anyone challenged me say, “hey I know my s*** more than you do,” but if you do that you A) step on peoples toes/stifle the discussion, B) get portrayed as a radical/fanatic and C) people just skip over your posts entirely

    The fact is that no one can be 100% confident of the way the do something as compared to their peers, especially when they don’t have access to their peers work and therefore don’t have the ability to evaluate all the processes comparitively,

    As for myself and my commentary of “tells me that you’ve already decided completely and finally against the Volt, which is perfectly fine with me, (and others on the WL). That was just something that was not exactly revealed by you (although implied certainly” I don’t know where you got that impression, I have said all along that I will ‘choose’ my second EV purchase based on technical specifications and what I want…my first purchase (which could certainly be a Volt) is strictly base on who gets me a “4 seat EV that I can service inside its electric range” – basically I’m not waiting if something else is available.

    Additionally, I have always, always said that the Volt is the perfect second car for me after I have a BEV (which is my preference). BEV for the sub 100 mile trips, Volt for the extended range…and I have 3 cars at the moment, so I don’t see how the Volt (or another EREV platform) doesn’t make it into my stable at some point.


  301. 301
    Murray

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:04 am)

    Same here…much like Dan Marino…I’ll just drop back and pass


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    EVO

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:06 am)

    “acceleration that will launch it from zero to 30 mph faster than an Infiniti G37, thanks to 207 pound-feet of torque from its 80 kilowatt … electric motor.”

    Woot!

    Who wouldn’t want that?

    Cue Jalopnik.


  303. 303
    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:10 am)

    I finished it this morning.

    /I may be dumber


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    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:16 am)

    I still can’t completely figure out what they are saying on the formula for BEV credits and how that corresponds to the warranty on the vehicle. It seems at first blush their is a sliding scale, but then that complicates anything as to a industry standard, and would punish anyone trying to get into the market, as opposed to a established player…unless of course they make the EV business a wholly owned subsidiary, which in theory could invalid the whole CARB process.

    I say we just cheap out on trying to figure it out, and let fearless leader to the work:

    “Hey Lyle, use your status and shoot off some emails to all the BEV makers on what their warranty will be (or what they understand the minimum requirements to be) in CARB states would you, heeh”


  305. 305
    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:18 am)

    I probably won’t sit still very long if they were just selling them in CARB states long term…at some point I’d probably break my own ‘rule’ of ‘service inside its electric range’ and go skirt the system, get a applicable address/plate it there and bring it home. (Probably Florida as I am there once or twice a year)


  306. 306
    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:20 am)

    Just wanted to say thanks to Nasaman for wading in here…always nice to learn new stuff.

    (=


  307. 307
    informel

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:39 am)

    They said on the news this morning that this car will be available in north america next year at a cost of 15K.
    If they can sell it for that price, I will buy one (even if its ugly to me)for sure and forget about the volt.


  308. 308
    moahunter

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (11:47 am)

    statik Reply:
    August 2nd, 2009 at 12:11 am

    Alright, if that is what is going on, the world makes sense again. A well equipped C-Segment car at Nissan is a Sentra, thats $17-18K. Tack on another 15-20K (as you suggest) and that gets us back to the $32,000-$38,000 range.

    I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread but I just can’t wrap my head around any sticker price under $35,000

    ——————-

    I think what you are missing is that this vehicle won’t need a conventional engine, or gearbox. My take is that Nissan is basing this on the Versa, a practical family car (I own one). So,

    1. Take a $15,000 Versa (reasonable spec already)
    2. Remove gearbox, engine, belts, battery, etc. Perhaps save $4,000 (so we at 11k)
    3. Add some aerodynamic sheet metal / ground effects / fancy electronics, say 2k, – perhaps up to 13k
    4. Add electric motor drive train – perhaps 2k – up to 15k
    5. Add 10k batter – up to 25k. Retains same profit margin as Versa does.

    So, perhaps 25k before rebates. Looks like a winner to me, for a vehicle that has limited range, but can charge at home and cheap to fuel, and needs virtually no mainetance (aside from brakes).


  309. 309
    HyperMiler

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (12:39 pm)

    Battery not included.


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    Eat This Pie

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (1:30 pm)

    I think Nissan has some serious competition. ;-)

    Youtube video of an electric vehicle (Geo Metro) powered by a Black & Decker cordless drill. Just watch the video and you’ll have a laugh!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wneCRRb0Y5U


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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (1:36 pm)

    Just to get on record, I like the styling of the Nissan Leaf. I, too, do not really get why they called it that other than a leaf is green. And the car is green. Oh, I get it.

    Anyway, if the Nissan Leaf is priced right it will take off very well in the USA, Canada and Europe. Its success in Japan is also a given.

    As the Aussies say: Good on ya Nissan


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    statik

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (2:49 pm)

    Interest blog from Daryl Siru (Previously the CMO of Tesla Motors) and sometimes hanger around of this site (I believe):
    —–

    Sunday, August 02, 2009:

    Nissan’s first big mistake out of the blocks (Nissan LEAF)
    Like many, I waited with great anticipation for Nissan to unveil their electric car. Nissan has been the most outspoken of the majors in favor of electric vehicles and seem committed to the mass commercialization of EVs as a major thrust of their strategy. In addition to the car itself, Nissan has invested a lot of effort reaching out to utilities to prepare the ground for the infrastructure that will aid the adoption of electric vehicles.

    So with all this careful preparation and with the very large bet they are placing on EVs, why did they make such a major and avoidable mistake in how they are communicating the true range of their vehicle, the LEAF? This is a mistake that is sure to haunt them when they actually bring the vehicle to market, and could have a negative impact on EV adoption in general.

    The issue is one I have written about previously – the EPA range figures that are typically communicated by most EV manufacturers overstate the true range of the vehicle in daily use. That means that consumers who buy the car are bound to be disappointed when the range they experience is significantly less than what they have been told by the manufacturer.

    In my analysis, I point out that the EPA combined (a mix of city and highway numbers) number that an EV will post when tested with a new battery is more like an upper limit of the range you will experience. Unfortunately, Nissan has upped the ante of exaggerating the realistic range of their vehicle by using the LA4 cycle as the single number they quote, which is the same as what we refer to as “EPA City”, or “UDDS” driving cycle. As you can see below, this test cycle assumes an average driving speed of 19.59 mph and in the 22 minute driving cycle, it assumes you only break 40 mph once, for about 100 seconds, and never exceed about 58 mph.

    http://www.darrylsiry.com/2009/08/nissans-first-big-mistake-out-of-blocks.html
    —–

    It goes on a lot longer and is worth a read, and looksie at the charts.


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    statik

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (2:51 pm)

    Being first certainly does have its cost…usually that means buying before you drive.


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    Paul C from Austin

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (2:51 pm)

    I like it! Looks very nice for a small car that still has 4 doors. If they can truly deliver this car for under $30k- or better yet, $27k, before the rebate, they will have a huge winner on their hands (yes, assuming all the specs come out good). While most families will need an EREV, at least until a fast-charge infrastructure can be built along with a battery that can take it, most 2nd and 3rd cars in a family don’t really need the extended range- a pure BEV will be much simpler to maintain, and much cheaper in the long run. I am a big Volt fan, and of EREV in general, but only as an interim vehicle concept- a full BEV, however, is the end game we are going toward.


  315. 315
    statik

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (3:09 pm)

    I agree peak oil is coming, but the article is a little flawed.

    The problem is the article does not calculate the effect of the actual price of a barrel of oil into the production of the fields. We were ramping up like crazy through the second half of 2007 and into 2008. The numbers like 200 and the words, ‘barrel of oil forever’ were spoken daily and the fields were maxed out and expanded as quickly as they could….and new production was being brought online like crazy in places that were deemed ‘inaccessible’ due to the cost to extract it.

    Today, many fields are intentionally slowed and/or R&D and expansions have been put on hold.

    Check this out…in just Alberta alone (think oil sands), 100 billion, thats BILLION dollars worth of expansion was shelved in the last 12 months…that was new production, and a ton of it, ready to come online….only reason it stopped was the price per barrel.
    http://www.polarisinstitute.org/slow_down_development_of_alberta039s_oilsands_lougheed

    I think you’ll for the time being, that there is a lot more oil to be had out there when it is sell for $100/barrel, and a pantload more at $200/barrel.

    I think production/peak oil estimates seem to flow inline with this chart of the price of oil:
    http://www.durangobill.com/OilChart.gif

    You show me $159 oil, I’ll show you a extra 5-6 million barrels magically coming online by 2015.


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    EVO

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (3:23 pm)

    1. Despite Daryl Sirry’s rantings, interstate highways are, in fact, less than 1% of all road miles in the US, and many of them have gridlock traffic for a national commuting speed average of, gasp, 29 mph, max 48 mph when the interstes aren’t congested. Stay off interstates if you want to get better vehicle efficiency and have a scenic drive. Go Charles Kuralt style (dating myself here) On the Road.

    2. Until the Leaf shows up with the rest of the models here http://www.nissanusa.com/sav/index.html, with an option to price and purchase, it isn’t real.

    3, Nissan has been focusing more on performance, I agree. But it does take HUGE ones to name a vehicle LEAF when it accelerates faster than an Infiniti G37 V6 coupe and has 100% torque off the line. Will they now name their next entry level supercar (electric boost on demand, of course (see Ferarri)) BRANCH, as it’ll smack the Z and the GT-R?

    4. I’m still baffled by the automakers taking a luxury performance drivetrain (maximum torque, instant acceleration and super quiet) and offering it in their mainstream brand to us Joe SixPacks as an efficiency vehicle, but who am I to look a gift horse? Electric drive – buy it for whatever reason – keep it for the luxury and performance (the EV grin).

    5. Does the Volt launch (0-30 mph) quicker than the Leaf? Either of them clearly launch faster than lots of full gassers. For those who aren’t content with the Leaf beating an Inifiniti G37, here’s some enthusiast tuner food for thought:

    http://www.examiner.com/x-4824-Tampa-Sports-Car-Examiner~y2009m8d2-Tuning-review-Nissan-LEAF


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (4:48 pm)

    No one stifles conversation with the number of times anyone can post, (as you very well know with the number and the lengths of your posts).

    In addition, who are you to determine what content ought to be shared?

    You said yourself that technology is not your strong point, so, how can you say you can judge it, far far far less the specific content I teach technicians? In that you are not my peer, nor will you ever be.
    If there is someone else who you can find that you think would be (assuming that you have any idea of the depth of technology I teach), as well as the credentials of anyone else including their life’s “hands on” experiences, then, I would most certainly be highly honored to meet them.

    But the internet has apparently become a place for
    “lazy-linkage” “pearl casting”, which is a very maladaptive coping strategy that I sincerely fear is giving the younger generations an extremely grossly overinflated sense of ego, false intellectual achievement, false security, and many other things mal-adaptive.

    The problem with the internet is that there is just so much content that is all too easily thrown at readers without enough of a measure of reality, caution, or experience backing it, in true caring for the prevention of financial rip-offs, that, occasionally, the only way to get the point across is with unorthodox methods, which I try to use only as a last resort, to get a critical point across. (No way in an attempt to stifle conversation, but to stifle bs that is clearly harmful for the reasons above).

    The very reasons few others are direct, is that they have jobs that are dependent on a corporate structure that DOES get BLACKMAILED AND BLACKLISTED politically/environmentally by opponents of environmentalism, if their employees are direct in their statements.
    I post my name, (and yes, I lost three auto repair customers last week when I said something controversial), I post my name to put my credibility on the line. You do not. You just post “statik”, and, just keep posting and posting without a care in the world, as it comes across to me.

    This planet is yours more than it is mine. You are obviously far younger than I, so, from a time each of us likely has left to enjoy it, it is most certainly more yours.
    My generation has messed up your planet. My direct and controversial statements are meant to wake you up and get you to become more of an owner-steward of your own property.

    The site has moved on. While it is important for me to receive truthful critique and extract value from it, (which I value here more than anything else) thinking it over several days, it is likely few others will see what I post as to my reasoning.

    You say I am radical. You have said that twice. That is a reaction formation. Given that your philosophy is that of a competitor, I can say that I believe that you feel threatened by someone who is more technically rooted in experience than yourself.

    You may disagree with me for whichever reason you choose, but the corporate structure of the planet would have us all behave in such a way that we are actually in a situation that we are no better off than
    live yeast placed into a bottle of wine to make it champagne, with a little more sugar carbohydrates, and, that yeast merrily partying on into an increasingly-inebriated closed-systemic poisoning, drinking in our own “its all good” internet alcohol.

    If you believe that is radical, then, yes, by your definition it is.
    But it is your planet more than it is mine. I am doing what I can to assist in the curbing of carbon. I do not do it from a pompous egotistical mindset.
    The apple cart needs upsetting if they are one to another becoming rotten. The corporate structure with it’s protective veil of irresponsibility is clearly too slow to act and won’t act in time for you. That is what is the saneness of our governments are now attempting to do. To literally save us if it is not too late. So, in that, I am indeed a radical to help the government achieve its goals in helping you have a planet left.
    When the previous administration was in power, I had to shut up, and stay shut up, and was cautioned by the great brainwashed to shut up. (I did not). If they come back, I will again, no doubt be intimidated and my business blackmailed and blackballed if I do not shut up. That is the tool of conservatives, and, I have learned to use that as a way to control my business growth. I actually budget the needed slowness of my business growth (to prevent quality dilution) with a controversy-statement-budget. This has worked very well because I was/am forced to make it work very well. (Guess who decides to not call me, anti-environmentalists, which is ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY OK with me). But if they do call (yes I clearly get hints), I respect and serve them with the same genuineness as everyone else. They just need more time to conclude that folks like rush are wrong.

    But it is your planet. Work to not let ignorance screw it up for you.


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    Aug 3rd, 2009 (9:13 pm)

    Well, I’m sorry this turned out like this.

    Your entitled to whatever opinion you like…I appreciate your opinion, and I never actually called you radical, I was merely trying to help you perceive others perception (ala carcus1) of some statements like, well…this last one.

    That was my mistake, clearly it should have been a road that was not taken. I wasn’t trying to compete, or envoke a ‘whose smarter’ war. I’m not going to be drawn in by, ‘how I am threatened by you’.

    I at no point here questioned your expertise, I questioned your delivery and pointed out you may have a little bit of a ‘god-complex’ when/if you deal in absolutes, or at the very least it may be perceived that way…and in turn you may not be given the respect for the knowledge you have.

    If you can’t step back and look at these post and see what I am talking about, it makes little sense for me to continue to point it out to you.

    I’ll let you have any rebuttal comments or points you’d like to make and just leave it at that.


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    Me (Ricky Bobby)

     

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (6:28 am)

    Hey heres an idea I will give out for free….. Let’s put a gasoline driven generator on it so when the battery gets low, you can keep driving ;) Oh! wait, I will just buy a Volt when it comes out.

    ‘ I piss excellence’


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    Shock Me

     

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (7:17 am)

    I think they may certainly try that again. But with the Koreans, Indians, and Chinese tooling up it will cost them alot more to buy into the dominant position.


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    Shock Me

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (7:22 am)

    Maybe they find it easier on the butt for all those long drives. I’m not gay but that’s why I like my Buick.


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    Eat This Pie

     

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (12:06 pm)

    Every day I see several GASOLINE powered cars dead on the side of the road. Are they out of fuel? Or did the engine or transmission blow up?

    I’ll take an electric vehicle over a “terrorist funding” “gas addiction machine” any day! ! ! !

    This cover for the band Gasoline ‘s album DEAD MAN sums it up:
    http://www.freewebs.com/the_invisible_man-albums/Theory%20Of%20A%20Dead%20Man%20-%20Gasoline.jpg


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    Aug 4th, 2009 (3:32 pm)

    Here’s a Youtube video showing how easy it is to charge.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQe8LJSKH8I&NR=1

    I like this car already. Nissan definitely has a homerun here if it can keep the purchase price down and avoid battery lease gimmicks.


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    Aug 4th, 2009 (3:34 pm)

    Didn’t GM (the OLD GM) just cancel production of some of their hybrids? The Malibu hybrid comes to mind…


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    Aug 4th, 2009 (3:41 pm)

    That sucks Arch. Sounds like the company you went with is kinda unscrupulous, no?


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    rex

     

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    Aug 4th, 2009 (11:12 pm)

    Fully functional electric cars were made in this country over 100 years ago. Yet the GM alumni crowd on this website seem to be unable to see GM is dragging their feet bringing an eletric car to market. GM should be out in front of the world, but instread has idiots trying to convince themselves pure battery electric vehicles are unrealistic. Good job…..


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    Pat

     

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    Aug 8th, 2009 (6:57 pm)

    There is no shortage of stoopid people in US. The more you look more you will find… The whole idea of electric cars is that we have to adapt & buy smaller electric cars for work commute..Use the 2nd car for long trips or rent … Ofcourse the stoopid US folks forget that they were paying $5.50 a gallon not too long ago …well the reality is upon us the days of plenty are gone & the vast majority of working folks in US will be making $8-10-12/ hr … many jobs are gone overseas & will not come back … wall st will scam the stoopids again .& standard of living will continue downhill …
    Just look around folks who are supposed to be retired are working at Walmart, grocery stores just keep health insurance ..


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    Pat

     

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    Aug 8th, 2009 (7:04 pm)

    My bet is that Japanese, korean & Chienese will beat up the locals again in this game…GM, Chrysler are used to make big cars with heavy profits & so so quality ..Just look at Toyota, Honda & Korean cars well built, less maintenance & last longer ..Until GM Chrysler get lean, mean & focus on longer time frame ..they will lose again ..All CEO want is big salary, benifits…give little to workers & raise the share price to cash in their loot …they will fail again ..


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    randy

     

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    Aug 11th, 2009 (9:16 pm)

    gm, ford and chrysler are shitty. if i pay for a new vehicle, i don’t expect to do a lot of fixing…typical of gm, ford and chrysler.


  330. [...] Read this article: Nissan LEAF Pure Electric Car Unveiled | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt … [...]


  331. 331
    Dave K.

     

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    Aug 21st, 2009 (4:34 pm)

    What is up fish the fish CAD on these new BEV’s? Just take a TR7 and put a battery in it.

    http://garfwod.250free.com/Triumph%20TR7.jpg

    =D~


  332. 332
    Nissan Leaf « Hybrid or Electric? You decide…

     

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    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:31 am)

    [...] is the aerodynamic shape but the back end is more unique, not the typical teardrop.” Writing on GM-Volt.com, a fan site dedicated to the Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid, Don C wrote: “The design seems pleasant [...]