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Report: Mitsubishi Confirms it Will Launch Extended-Range Electric Car in 2010
People often ask if the Volt’s extended range architecture is such a good idea, then why haven’t all the other automakers opted to do it?
To date the only companies publicly embracing the design have been Chrysler, and Fisker though there have been unconfirmed reports Jaguar is working on it too. Other companies such as Ford, Tesla, Nissan, and Toyota have publicly dismissed the concept altogether.
Mitsubishi has now apparently decided to embrace the idea too.
According to a report out of the UK, Mitsubishi has confirmed its intentions to launch an extended-range electric car by the end of 2010.
Reportedly the vehicle will be a compact SUV similar in size to the Toyota RAV-4 and will use a drivetrain similar to the Chevy Volt’s Voltec system.
The vehicle will also share the 40 mile all electric range with a small possibly 3-cylinder 660 cc gas-powered range extender that would allow it to continue driving on gasoline and 200 miles or so. The range extender would act as a generator producing electricity for the motor just as in the Volt.
Mitsubishi claims it is confident it can make the 2010 deadline for the EREV as it is already in production of the lithium-ion battery powered i-MiEV electric car.
Mitsubishi sources describe the diminutive i-MiEV as ideal for crowded city driving such as in Japan and some places in Europe. Although they do plan to release the i-MiEV in the US in 2011, the company doubts it will sell in significant volumes due to its small size, though it is capable of 100 miles EV range and 90 MPH top speed. This is why the EREV would be needed.
It is likely the new Mitsubishi EREV will make its appearance at the Tokyo Auto show in the fall. Then Mitsubishi sources tell GM-Volt.com, “our plans will be made clear.”
Source (Register Hardware)
July 31st, 2009 at 6:15 am
Excellent news !
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:16 am
I guess a $47,000 micro-BEV isn’t so popular after all.
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:16 am
I welcome Mitsi-bitchy to the party, but am a little skeptical of their time line, as I suspect a lot of GM engineers working on the Volt are, too. I don’t think, from everything we’ve learned following this blg, that ER-EV is as easy to do as it sounds.
Am also anxious to see how thier little 660 cc engine does when that SUV needs to get up the hill. And what about aero and it’s effect on all-electric range… many many unanswered questions here.
Ultimately, it’s Mitsu’s entry falls short, it could just make the VOlt look all the better, and help change perceptions of GM.
But back to my original point: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I’m glad to see anouther OEM thinking ER-EV.
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:23 am
The interesting part I notice is that this will be a small SUV, something we haven’t officially seen or heard from GM in regards to Voltec.
I’m sure there is a market for an efficient, high mileage SUV if the price is right.
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:26 am
You have a real price, or just throwing out a ridiculously high number?
How about a linky?
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:29 am
YouTube video of Volt prototypes being built….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bztCah9wxS8
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:32 am
Funny. The Volt originally was specified with a smaller 3 cylinder engine.
I was one, who was not happy with GM moving to the larger, 4-cylinder, but I now admit I understand the EREV and how it is intended to operate. I actually wonder if the current 4-cylinder, has enough horsepower to perform as GM is claiming.
So, sounds like history will repeat itself. Looking for a Mitsu blog, so we can start the arguments all over again, about how big the ICE should be.
The more things change, the more they stay the same….
/I can envision the GM engineers sitting around, snickering at Mitsu, and the lessons it has yet to learn.
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:36 am
Typo alert: Should read “…if Mitsu’s entry falls short…”
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:38 am
Bill
The application of EREV and BEV make it difficult and somewhat impractical for only the smaller, aerodynamic vehicles.
To get a real advantage, your battery range, has to be reasonable, otherwise your just running the ICE for a majority of time.
There may be niche applications that could take advantage of EREV’s in a larger vehicle (ie: garbage trucks, busses), but for general use vehicles, I believe the EREV is a difficult sell. But, a small SUV or mini van may still be reasonable.
JMHO
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:39 am
Have you been talking to the Elbonians?
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:40 am
Normally I don’t jump “offsite” too much, but seeing the IVERs is pretty thrilling.
Competition only strengthens products (until the weak fall away or the public makes a very clear choice). It’s all good.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:41 am
Now this is a move I can respect. Even though the application is smaller than Voltec, the practicalities on not overworking a set of batteries shows the technological “wake-up call” that I’d been expecting for quite some time from non-GM OEM(s).
A few weeks ago, I saw a tilted Ford chassis BEV display with their three batteries, no Genset.
I think that either this is a profound mistake, or, Ford wants to do their E-REV engineering in “peace and quiet” without distractions (which would be understandable to me).
But E-REV reduces **TREMENDOUS** business-risk for the liabilities posed for excessively-frequent replacement of battery packs. And, if not ALSO all the battery related systems connections likely being design- intolerant of frequent change (more than once or twice a year), then, as well, the customers themselves will become intolerant of such a frequency of battery changes and the unacceptable inconveniences and safety risks imposed onto them.
(Battery changes at that frequency are not at all comparable to oil changes, as too much is unknown regarding connection-fatigues. Unknowns to safety are unacceptable). Hypothesizing that “safety will be designed in” can not be completely proven without the actual practice over years of testing, since depleted and worn-out batteries at lower voltages act differently than well electrically-maintained (via E-REV) ones.
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:45 am
I guess imitation is the greatest form of flattery. Bring it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:49 am
I had a motorcycle that was 900cc that really hauled, er, well it was powerful enough, but for a Rav3 size 600 seems REALLY small genset.
The Rav4 electric was/is pretty popular size vehicle though. If it’s well done it may fit Statik’s minimum purchase specs.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 6:58 am
Dan
I would believe that the EREV designs would be “harder on the battery” then a pure BEV.
The EREV battery is sized just right, so you maximize the use of the battery. A BEV battery would be oversized to reduce your range anxiety (not mine lol). Therefore the cycling of the EREV would be more often and typically deeper than a BEV, at least that seems to be a reasonable conclusion.
The use of temp control and other items, would apply equally to BEV and EREV, so this should be a non factor.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:00 am
Thats what I told the hotty at HOOTERS…but she made me remove my implants
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:01 am
It turns out that the videos are at “that other GM site”. I haven’t visited there, but it was mentioned on the autobloggreen site.
End of comment.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:01 am
man the volt must capture the market before mitsubishi could capture it. the volt should be a real success and mitsubishi should not enter the american market for their cars.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:08 am
He may have meant the other Mitsu rollerskate. IMEV?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:16 am
JEC
How could a BEV be cycled less often than an erev?. It won’t GO without a charge, while an erev will start right up if not pluged in overnight. I’m also doubting that BEV batteries will be oversized because they tend (at this point to be really small cars).
JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:19 am
I thought BYD was also developing an ‘EREV’.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:25 am
Fair enough, I thought it was common knowledge at this point, especially since Toyota also announced a $47,000 BEV.
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1021980_toyota-to-produce-up-to-30000-plug-in-hybrids-in-2012
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:25 am
Tag,
The EREV battery is sized to allow only a minimal range (by design) and therefore, you will likely use a larger percentage of the total capacity every time you drive it.
The BEV would actually be less deeply cycled, since it will have, typically a greater range than a EREV, and the famous >90% of all drivers, drive less than 40 miles, means on average you would use a smaller percent of the available battery in an BEV than an EREV.
When we say EREV, generically, like we say BEV generically, than you cannot say that the EREV battery is better controlled and protected than a BEV battery. The case may apply to the Volt, but we need to know what the BEV’s are doing to protect and control their battery, to make a fair comparison.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:26 am
Here is a recent story:
http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/clay-dillow/culture-buffet/byds-f3dm-sedan-reach-chinese-consumers-soon-west-will-have-wait
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:28 am
I believe an EREV SUV would maintain the performance and greatly increase the mileage of an SUV. It would be significantly more expensive than these mild hybrid SUV’s.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:30 am
Remember, the range extender just needs to maintain an average power output. The spikes in power needed for acceleration come from the battery, so its capacity and discharge rate is what is important to a vehicle’s performance.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:32 am
About 50% of the EREV bat is “reserved” isn’t it? I thought deeper cycling would shorten BEV life, but you certainly could be correct. You could well be right – I’m no expert in these things.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:32 am
Don’t worry sudaman. The car you see above is nowhere near the vehicle the Volt will be.
I do applaud Mitsu for making this decision though. They have to start somewhere. I wish them luck.
And I’ll bet Toyota and Honda executives are starting to get that sinking feeling that they are on the wrong side of the tracks.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:32 am
Note: This would be the case with current battery tech and cost, but in the future, all bets are off.
just saying..
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:34 am
Jason,
I understand that, but then why all the talk about the sizing of the genset? It’s important to get that battery set back within parameters once it’s “on the edge” of the depletion point, No?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:36 am
That’s my attitude exactly – the confirmation is 3 years late, but gratifying. Now show me whatcha got.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:44 am
Yes, they do make it sound easy, and I think many will try and fail. Also, because of GM’s patents, it will become even harder for competitors.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:46 am
Brought to you be the friendly people that brought you Pearl Harbor. ( They made the zero airplane ) Buy American!! (or at least GM)
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:51 am
Thanks for sharing!
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:51 am
Tag,
Your correct. The Volt uses only 50% of its capacity. But, we really need data on the BEV, related to percent use and all the protection that they will incorporate. Also, the chemistry differences need to be understood to make any specific statement on how “hard” it is on the battery, for any particular application.
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July 31st, 2009 at 7:55 am
Good points of agreement. It’s a good day then.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:01 am
Yes, over time the on-board gen/set will cut down on the deep cycles and thus could extend battery life due to deep cycles. But this “prolong battery life” benefit would not seem to belong to EREV exclusively, the same benefit would be derived from any series or parallel plug-in Hybrid. And it is conceivable, that the parallel design would provide a larger benefit, but time will tell.
Nevertheless, it sure is encouraging that another major OEM has opted for the EREV design vice parallel hybrid.
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:06 am
Now that Ford And GM make cars that are equal to or better than anything the Japanese make, according to many sources including JD Powers, Americans no longer have any reason to send their money overseas to buy a car.
Most Americans just haven’t woken up to that fact.
I know parts for cars are made all over the world. No car is 100% American. But if you buy from a foreign owned company, the PROFITS go overseas instead of staying here.
And buying a car from a foreign owned factory in America doesn’t help matters. The profits still go overseas, and the jobs they seem to create here are an illusion. Those jobs were merely shifted from American owned factories to foreign owned factories.
We, as a nation cannot keep doing this forever. We will go broke.
We must make our own cars AND make our own energy to run them.
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:10 am
Just because GM is very open about their development of the Volt doesn’t mean that other car companies are. Mitsu could well have been working on this car for as long as GM has been. Absolute secrecy is the norm in the auto industry and they are pretty good about keeping their secrets too.
GM openness about the Volt is a bit of an experiment for them and I believe that it has been a smashing success. It is just not the way things are normally done.
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:36 am
Pick a top speed for your vehicle (100mph seems reasonable). Your genset needs to be big enough to supply constant power for travelling at this speed, plus power your lights, heating, radio etc. The volt seems to require approx 53kw to travel at 100mph, and has a 53kw(71hp) genset. The ICE needs to provide at least 71hp, and at an RPM which is acceptable. If we look in GM’s portfolio, the 1L Ecotec has an output of 59hp at 5600RPM, the 1.2 has 79 hp at 5600RPM so it’s possible but may be a little uncomfortable (and probably not very economical). The 1.4 is rated 89hp at 5600, without seeing a graph i’m not certain what engine speed would give you 71hp, but a lot lower than 5600, maybe 3800-4000rpm. So still, not eaxctly economical, but driveable.
A 600cc engine with 50hp(37kw) would have an engine maxed (Very loud!!) out top speed of less than 85mph in the volt, even less in something SUV bodied.
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:43 am
Thanks flaninacupboard,
That helps a lot. Maybe they (Mitsu) are putting the genset on a trailer so the noise won’t be noticeable (lol) It’d definitely clear the neighborhood of cats.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:49 am
Ironic that Toyota isn’t embracing EREV as they an indomitable hybrid that can already run partially in all electric mode. Basically all Toyota has to do is add a bigger battery and a plug. I am sure they will (there are unconfirmed reports that they are releasing them for $47,000 as Jason M. Hendler already said).
Ford has the same thing with their Ford Escape Hybrid.
Also Lyle, I thought you announced a few weeks (or months?) ago that Honda was planning on making EREVs.
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:50 am
Very true.
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:50 am
ZipDrive
I gave you a plus and then thought, I think both companys will SURPRISE me with their soon to be announced E-REV cars.
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:51 am
OK, NOW I agree with you!
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:55 am
So, another fish jumps into the waters of EREV. All the better for us. Hopefully this will spur GM to get the job done, get it done right and before November 2010, if at all possible. We are pulling for you GM. I will bet that Mitsubishi will attempt to release their EREV before GM’s expected release. We will see.
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July 31st, 2009 at 8:59 am
Thanks old man! You may be right!
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:02 am
They can have their lead painted stolen designs in China.
There is NO WAY I’d buy a Chinese car.
If someone gave me one I’d say thank you and then sell it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:05 am
Yup.
It WAS announced at $47k usd (in Japan)
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:06 am
I agree. Whether that adds to GM’s success, I don’t know. What will add to GM’s success is to build a quality vehicle and over deliver on promises. Those two ingredients will make it difficult for other auto companies to successfully challenge GM.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:07 am
Tag my friend, there is nothing to be worried about, the ‘other site’ has some good videos and info, but the good discussion is all here.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:08 am
MuddyR,
If you sell it, sell it to an enemy. If you do that to a friend you just made a NEW enemy….
Just a thought.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:09 am
I guess that depends from which perspective you are looking at it from.
…excellent news for us, the EV buyer.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:10 am
Ewwww….
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:10 am
JEC, Jason is right on the price, and he was justified in thinking everyone knew about it — it’s been chewed on quite a bit.
In some ways this price is not so surprising given the notion that the first gen Volt will cost GM something in the same neighborhood and that Mitsubishi says that the $47K covers all costs. Both the i-Miev and the Volt have the same size battery pack, and while the Volt has the genset added, the I-Miev uses what have to be more expensive cells.
The first BEVs and EREVs are not going to be cheap to build.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:10 am
Agree on both points
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:12 am
<- Still surprised the i-MiEV isn’t called the Mitsubishi ZERO (emission vehicle)
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:13 am
At least they promote theirs with a more interesting color besides Silver or Black. C’mon Mr. Lutz… Get the boys in the paint shop to break out the leftover cans of Victory Red!!! Send the photos over to Lyle ASAP. The VOLT blogs need WAAAYYY more excitement.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:13 am
MuddyR,
You mistake my dyspepsia re the other site as fear. I just don’t like the whole CONCEPT of asking Lyle his opinion and then ignoring it after all he has done for them (a priceless contribution IMHO). They could just have easily gotten the same “good info” out through this site and chose not to do so. I won’t go there. This is probably best just dropped at that. No “hubbub” necessary.
Just my (morally correct) opinion,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:16 am
So if the iMiev and the Mitsu EREV are availble at the same time for the same price…. which one do you buy?
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:16 am
Are we still really pulling up dollar exchanges from Japan, where the government gives 15-17K in rebates? Of course it is more there, rebates are for manufacturers, not customers…regardless what they say.
Lets take the UK for example, the i-MiEV, cost? £20,000 to £25,000…thats a range of $33,000 – $41,000 USD (which was 30K to 37K before the dollar hit the crapper a couple weeks ago.)
As for demand, they bumped it up to a expected 40K annually from 30K. I’m going to wager that the i-MiEV is priced about the same here, $35,000ish, or whatever the Volt is minus 5K.
Source:
The firm’s already talking about annual iMiEV demand hitting the 40,000 mark sooner rather than later – up from 30,000 cars the last time a number was mentioned back in April.
Each iMiEV will cost between £20,000 and £25,000 ($30,844-37,800/€22,339-27,900), depending on the vagaries on the Sterling/Yen exchange rate.
The cost of each motor will include the outright purchase of the battery pack – so no leasing arrangements – which will come with a ten-year warranty.
Sales and servicing will be available nationwide from selected Mitsubishi dealers, who’ll join the iMiEV programme in much the same way as Mitsubishi performance car support is currently available from its Ralliart dealers.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/05/15/mitsubishi_imiev_uk_shipment/
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:20 am
No, customers buying my product is the sincerest form of flattery.
Imitation, unless you are very careful, will land you in court.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:22 am
BillR said:
“I’m sure there is a market for an efficient, high mileage SUV if the price is right.”
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And there lies the rub. We have seen how much aerodynamics is a big player in EV design when GM is worried about every little crease and fold in the sheet metal. An SUV, any SUV, by it’s very nature and packaging does not slice through the wind as easily as a sedan does. Therefore, the only way Mitsubishi can attain their advertised 40 mile AER, they will need a bigger battery than GM is using. We know bigger battery = bigger price. This vehicle will have to be significantly more expensive than the Volt.
I also question the 660cc sizing of their ICE. If they tune it like that of a modern motorcycle they might get 80-90 hp out of it, but it will have to scream like motorcycle to get it. This much horsepower is not enough for customers expectations of a modern SUV. In battery depleted mode, this SUV will way under perform and not have the seamless transition that GM is said to have achieved between the two modes.
Of course, only time will tell.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:23 am
This is called protectionism. I won’t argue about the good and bad effects of it in a globalized economy.
[...] We, as a nation cannot keep [...]
These are the choice you have in your own hands. Ppl want to have more and pay less.
So either you have one US made car or 10 chinese ones. Your choice, and no complains.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:24 am
I love the idea of such a small, limp-home ICE. Yes, the performance will not be as good but the weight of the ICE drivetrain will be considerably smaller and cheaper.
All I want is for the car to be able to hit max 60 mph on the highway. I just want the ICE to kill the range anxiety.
Come to think of it, what’s the minimum highway speed? I only need to go about 1 mph above that. Just so I don’t get pulled over. lol. I’m kidding, of course but for my city car it would more than good enough to be able to just hit 40 mph or so to get me to the next charge station. Range anxiety become range frustration. I bit of a pain in the ass but not any more so than sitting in traffic.
In short, I want a very small ICE drivetrain. Light and simple. I will be itching to rip it out as soon as batteries and infrastructure allow.
P.S. Could they possibly come up with a worse aero front end? Why not just rig a sail? lol.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:26 am
Or maybe the genset is just for limping home? Go 40 miles on electric at 85mph, then when the battery is gone, if you still need to go further, u can limp home at 45mph? We need a lot more data from Mitsu, which I doubt we’ll get.
Lyle, when do you get to test drive it
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:27 am
This is good news. The i-Miev was never going to work in NA and Mitsubishi never had any real plans to bring it here. The battery pack was just too small to expect it go very far at higher speeds. Lyle on his commute — which seems mostly interstate type driving — would probably get 35-40 miles. Those people who claimed otherwise just liked the car — it is kinda cute and the sport version is quite attractive — and believed what they wanted to believe, which was that the car might actually have a 100 mile range.
In fairness to Mitsubishi, the claimed range of 100 miles is on a Japanese drive cycle that wouldn’t be relevant in NA because it’s too mild. You can see that in the numbers given for other cars. Using the Japanese drive cycle the Prius is rated at 90 mpg rather than the 50 mpg using the US city drive cycle. When you start going 70 mph the world changes.
No doubt this EREV vehicle will have about the same pack size as the i-Miev but have the added genset. The only issue is that AFAIK Mitsubishi doesn’t manufacture any vehicles in NA, and shipping these kinds of cars around the world is not a competitive advantage. It’s better to have the battery manufacturing near where the vehicles sill be assembled and sold. So manufacturing the battery in Japan will be a disadvantage even though the battery cell technology may turn out to be among the best.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:27 am
EREV, hands down.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:27 am
What are you, 95 years old? Welcome to the 21st century!
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:28 am
THAT would have more than a few bad feelings associated with it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:30 am
Awesome news! Let’s hope the price will be affordable so this is a real contender. I have owned several Mitsus over the years and they have been great cars. I don’t think I ever had one repair on any of them, other than normal maintainence. I like the small form factor and hatchback shown in the picture.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:31 am
So far, other than the videos, you have not missed too much on that “other” site. I am sure it will improve eventually.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:31 am
If i park my BEV in the cold for 8 hours w/out a plug to plug in, how will they warm it before starting my car w/out an ICE? I think it will be very difficult (or take some great ingenuitiy) to protect BEV batteries from heat/cold w/out a plug. Current battery tech doesn’t like extreme temps.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:33 am
I’d buy one without a second thought if the price was right. Apparently Warren Buffet would too. Guess you’ve never shopped at Walmart?
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:33 am
JEC said: “Looking for a Mitsu blog, so we can start the arguments all over again, about how big the ICE should be.”
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You could start one, you know. I will bet Lyle could give you some good pointers and may even help you get started. When you get it up, let us know.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:34 am
We unfortunately have had to never say never. There was a time that I can remember, when the majority of Americans once said “I will never buy a Jap car!” There was also a time when the Hyundai was considered cheesy crap and most people dismissed it.
Sadly, with regards to the Chinese car, we may have little choice. Eventually, most of the major brands will no doubt end up manufacturing their cars there just like makers of almost everything else we buy already do. The computer you are typing on is no doubt made in China. We may still choose to buy a Chevy or Ford, but chances are, it will be Chinese made in the future.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:36 am
It’s going to have to be small so that you get a reasonable range on a modestly sized battery pack. A small CUV may not be such a hard sell though. We’ve moved from minivans to full sized SUVs and now to CUVs and small CUVs, and this seems to be is a small CUV. Basically different sheet metal on a small car platform.
Personally I think it’s a good idea because some people love the idea of being able to stick stuff in the back. This may prod GM to move forward with its small CUV EREV vehicle. The only issue is that these vehicles may not be capable of towing.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:36 am
I don’t know why would be skeptical of their timeline, the batteries are the issue here not the platform. If they were starting from scratch today, I’d say yeah, no chance.
GM has spend the bulk of its time testing, fidgeting with the packs…and Mitsu already produces and builds their own batteries, so I don’t see why they can’t do it.
The other issue is, who knows how long they have been working on it…can’t really say with any certainty.
It is no secret Mitsu has a lot of streeet cred in my book. They said we are going to produce a EV (with their own batteries) by a certain date and in a certain qualntity….and they have hit all their targets, and actually upped production.
To me, Mitsu has proven they can do it…and are the only manufacturer I give the ‘benefit of the doubt to.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:36 am
I think that’s where those 70 kwh batteries will come in.
A Voltec Silverado or Yukon would be an excellent candidate for this sort of driveline.
Likely a good size for a high performance 300+ hp voltec Camaro or Corvette as well…
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:37 am
Even if Toyota put a plug and bigger battery in their Prius, it still isnt an EREV. Its a PHEV. I know, i know, details. But that detail is one that is important to me.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:38 am
Fair enough.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:43 am
Thanks Muddy and N.Riley,
On to bigger and more pleasant topics!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:43 am
Not entirely correct. For a globally traded company like Ford or Toyota profits go to shareholders who may not necessarily be located in USA or Japan. Many Americans own Toyota as a part of their 401Ks for example. As far as the jobs are concern the manufacturing will be done in countries with cheaper labor costs unless the government puts up some form of artificial regulation. There is also one more thing – exporting manufacturing also exports energy consumption and pollution. Just a thought, but the amount of oil needed to build a car is about 10% of the oil it will consume during it’s lifetime driving on gas. In the case of Volt it actually may take MORE oil to manufacture than it will ever use in generator mode. Prius by the way takes 40% more energy (in form of oil) to build than Honda Accord. So to help achieve more oil/energy independence you really a looking into moving more manufacturing overseas especially low tech manufacturing with high energy requirements (like Li cells).
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:44 am
GM has plenty of incentives to get the Volt right. No need to worry on that front.
Also I very much doubt that Mitsubishi could release the new vehicle before the Volt comes off the assembly lines. Keep in mind that GM is already producing the IVERs while Mitsubishi is planning on releasing the production prototype this fall. it takes a certain amount of time to get a new car from conception to production, and If you start cutting that time down you run the risk of ending up with a vehicle you’re not totally proud of. No doubt the work on the i-Miev will give Mitsubishi a leg up, but it won’t shorten the time needed for all the numerous albeit pedestrian chores, such as tuning the suspension.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:45 am
A good point, I was somewhat second guessing that post…
I’ve just seen too much ‘junk’ come out of China, I don’t trust their manufacturing processes (if in doubt use something cheaper).
I truly believe that a LARGE factor in the fall of Nortel Networks was the move into China. Within MONTHS of setting up manuafcturing there ANOTHER Chinese company was building a product nearly identical for half the price. You can do that when you STEAL another companies property.
This sort of thing would land somebody in jail in NA or Europe but in China it is encouraged.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:47 am
I DO own two red cars…
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:49 am
kdawg said:
“So if the iMiev and the Mitsu EREV are availble at the same time for the same price…. which one do you buy?”
==========
Wow, thats a tuffie.
For me personally, obviously some pricing plays a roll, I’ve set a personal threshold of about 50K for my EV commuter car (at some point it just becomes nonsensical).
The ‘greenie’ in me still wants the BEV, but the small SUV platform is really appealing. (I really like the non-traditional EV…thats why I thought the Chrysler EREV van was pretty nice).
Fortunately my creedo can decide for me, “The first plug-in electric car available with 4 seats that I can service inside its electric range”…so the field is still wiiiiide open to all the players. (=
/somebody, somewhere start taking orders already, lol
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:50 am
I think GM almost has to have an official site for the car. That’s what successful companies do. At least IMHO. They have to have an outlet for official new releases, etc.
This site is independent, so it doesn’t serve the same purpose. And, I, for one, am happy about it. That’s why Lyle can run articles about Mitsubishi’s EREV and other EV alternatives, and give unbiased reviews of the Prius vs. the Insight. I’m looking forward to his Ford Fusion Hybrid review. You couldn’t get that on GM’s official site. I also trust his Volt test drives more because of it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:51 am
Groan!
Fishmahn
PS: I agree with MuddyRoverBob – bad connotations associated with it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:52 am
Uncontested re the govt sponsored theft.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:54 am
Thanks for the link. Nice to read about BYD and get updated.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:56 am
The other advantage of a BEV is that the larger pack means the cells discharge at lower rates. For example, given the same power draw, cells in a pack four times larger will discharge 1/4th as fast. That’s not affected by only using half the pack. For example, if you need to draw 8 kWh in half an hour from a 16 kWh pack then the cells are discharging at a 1C rate. For a 32 kWh pack the rate would be .5C.
As an aside, the need to avoid high power draws in order to protect the battery pack is one of the reasons why a “small pickup truck” isn’t well suited for EREV.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:56 am
Re: Shipping
(not going down the range road again…I don’t think either of us want that, lol)
Shipping is a added cost factor, no doubt. But I think that applies more to trying to sell $15,000 cars, not $40,000 cars. How much more is it to ship over producing it domestically? $700? I dunno, really.
I mean, right now they sell a Lancer at $13,040.
And I think the fact that Mitsu manufactures there own packs will afford them a significant cost advantage over GM 3rd party buying them.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:57 am
I can see that being OK for a City car.
The ‘limp home’ would at least allow me to not worry about my wife stuck in traffic running out of battery and getting stranded.
(No she is not a ‘princess’ but I’d worry)
I’d PREFER the full perfomance all the time Volt, but the limp home idea could be an acceptable second choice.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:58 am
We are in agreement on that. Problem is that I don’t think we, as Americans, are capable of “waking up” anymore. It will take a real “shocker” to give us enough jolt to move us away from our buying habits. We just came through one such shock (current government spending on bail-outs and stimulus) and are fixing to see two more arrive very shortly (cap and trade (tax?) and government enforced health care). If these don’t shock us awake, we are doomed to many more shocks down the road. IMO
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:58 am
At some point, China’s going to have to revalue the renmimbi. At that point, China will no longer be so attractive for manufacturers.
By the way, you can avoid a great deal of “made in China” if you pay attention. For some things, you really can’t. But there are a lot of things that are still made in North America and Europe–and it’s not that difficult to find them. You just have to look. Sometimes you have to be willing to spend more money, but not always.
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:58 am
LauraM
All good points, none of which lessen my dysphoria. I wonder why they asked Lyle to come out to discuss it.
It’s all good – I just don’t find a particle of desire to go there.
As you pointed out, there is much more to find here.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 9:59 am
Without U.S. manufacturing most may not be able to afford anything.
Service jobs in mass simply don’t pay very well and add nothing to our national ealth.
I can only hope we figure this out like most other countries have before it is to late. My GUESS would be that BYD will sell more cars in Calif. or NY Than in all of Europe due to the fact that they value their manufacturers.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:00 am
I haven’t. And unless something drastically changes in the future, I won’t. As far as Warren Buffet–I’ll believe that when I see it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:00 am
This is excellent news indeed. Competition in the EREV market will help everyone, GM included.
As for me, my creedo is “I will never buy a pure BEV.”
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:01 am
…but $30,000-$37,000 USD in the UK, where there isn’t 17K in rebates available
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/05/15/mitsubishi_imiev_uk_shipment/
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:01 am
I find that so depressing that I don’t have proper words to describe it.
I find it very sad that you have ‘given up’ though.
The really really sad part is that you are not alone.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:02 am
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:06 am
The difference is that war was known to all at the time as as war.
Some seem blind to the fact that we are now in a different kind of war, a trade war that some seem to have no idea of the potential cost to our very way of life.
If manufacturing is so unimportant then why are nearly all developing countrys trying to get into it?
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:08 am
Never is a long time, Dave. Dave? My circuits are acting “funny”. Are you working on them at present, Dave? Dave, I feel like I am getting sleepy. Is this the way you feel when you go to sleep? Dave? Dave?
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:09 am
I can understand why you’re focusing on the price but you need to focus on margins. The Japanese have historically exported the expensive luxury cars to the US but assembled the less expensive small cars here, which suggest it works to export expensive cars. But in this case expensive car equates with to “cars we can sell with big margins”. These EREV vehicles won’t have any margin, so in order to be competitive and not lose money you’re going to have to assemble close to the point of sale. It’s the margin which is critical, not the price of the car. But, as you point out, it can be done. It just won’t work very well if there is local based competition.
FWIW I think Mitsubishi has just conclusively answered the question of range though I never thought this a real issue.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:09 am
I agree. A smaller ICE on the range extender would probably be just as good, and save cost and weight. It may be that GM is just being conservative for the first release of the Volt.
But for me, the ICE needs to be there. I will never buy a pure BEV.
Actually, I just lied. This pure BEV interests me a lot:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s.php
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:10 am
Oh, please. I prefer to buy North American and European, but that has nothing to do with Pearl Harbor. That was sixty years ago. At some point, you have to let these things go.
But, as long as you brought it up, yes, the Japanese committed war crimes. No one can dispute that. But in becoming imperialists, they only followed the British/French/Russian example. Pearl Harbor was part of that.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:11 am
The only reason GM isn’t using the same set-up/3 banger is because they didn’t make one and they couldn’t afford to build one at the time, and/or still don’t want to build it now. The family 4 cyclinder they are putting in the Volt is only there because it is what is available.
It is kinda ironic that Mitsu is making this their engine of choice.
Personally, I could care less what the performance is after the 40 miles of electric drive is toast. As long as it can go 65 mph, I am tickled pink…and I pretty confident a 53HP turbo charged 3 can do the job. It isn’t going to be sporty by any stretch, but who cares.
I’m actually kind of excited Mitsu has announced this car, with this timeframe. I’m starting to feel like I may indeed get a EV at some point in the next year and a half, I’m all the way up to 50/50, from about 10%, lol.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:12 am
@ statik
I figured living in Toronto, you would have said EREV due to the colder climate. My question was basically assuming all things being equal besides propulsion design, which design do u choose, EREV or BEV? If your daily commute or driving habits exceeds the comfortable range of the iMiev, I also thought that would have played into your decision.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:13 am
I wonder how many more will jump out of the weeds before the end of next year?
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:13 am
But a small pickup IS good as a BEV???
I REALLY don’t get that one.
In an EREV truck, (actually any EREV) if the pack were ’stressed’ due to load the genset could fire up to smooth things out thereby protecting the pack.
A BEV would not have this luxury.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:13 am
Yup.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:14 am
Mitsubishi is saying the obvious, which is that the market for a very small EV with a battery pack not suited for high speed driving is vanishingly small in NA. It could be used as an extra car for running local errands and so forth, but there aren’t many people willing to pay a premium price for such a vehicle.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:16 am
I’m not going to lie…I threw up a little bit there
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:17 am
Not always.
My company outsources a lot of work/product, just because its cheaper. And i’m not talking about outsourcing to China, I’m referring to other places in the same city/state.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:18 am
Lets hope these autos are going to be available soon. I have a bad feeling about the situation shaping up between Israel and Iran. If Israel takes out the nuclear plants you will see oil at $200 dollars a barrel and $5 dollar a gallon gas will be cheap.
God Bless America.
Tom
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:23 am
True enough, it was a bit of a “Muddy” release!
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:25 am
Muddy,
Nothing wrong about elevating your spouse. Mine is “My Dear One” and we’re approaching (August) 38 years married to our first loves.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:26 am
Yes, EREVs are somewhat complicated, but that doesn’t really matter.
When I was younger, I took apart a VCR once. Those things were complicated! No wonder they cost over $400 when they first came out. But by the end, they were selling for $40, and everyone was making them.
In the end, what matters is demand. If most people want an EREV, then everyone will start making them, and they’ll get cheap.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:26 am
I know we knock a plug-in Prius, because Hymotion can’t seem to get it right…but I think Toyota could pretty easily make a plug-in 10 mile/20 mile option for the Prius and make it work, and get it to market really quick. (The Prius is already reverse engineered for it).
It isn’t the same thing, or as good…but will the public figure that out? And Toyota’s ‘extended range’ performance in the Prius is exceptional, so they might cancel out any differences in people’s minds.
I guess we’ll find out…they are supposedly making it a option. How much, how far (will to travel) and how many when it actually gets on the option sheet is the big question.
/I’d still much prefer a EREV/BEV hands down (if I had the choice)
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:28 am
if you buy the car, you are also buying the oil used to make it, no matter where it was made.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:33 am
We are (only) at 22 years, next week actually…
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:38 am
So, we always ask this, (and it is way down on my own priority list) but what do we figure the MPG in extended range is?
Mitsu is putting a 53 HP turbo 3 banger, similar ot what GM originally intended for the Volt in there. It has the right set-up/engine, but doesn’t look very aerodynamic. And until we get some specs it would be a total WAG. Just looking at it, I’d say it is like the i-Miev and riding on a much narrower platform than the Volt, but is a good half-foot taller.
Maybe 45MPG? (in the real world, not Japanese cycle)
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:43 am
“As for me, my creedo is “I will never buy a pure BEV.””
________________________
I suppose that is what sets you apart from most of the participants on this website. The vast majority seem to be fans of all cars electric and recognize that a BEV could work very well for a certain segment of the marketplace — even if it won’t suit them, personally.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:44 am
If that thing can make 45 mpg then my assertion that the Volt can do 50- 60 mpg feels pretty good right now.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:46 am
IMO the two different offerings should appeal to different buyers and give each set of buyers more confidence in the EREV concept, broadening the market for each car maker simultaneously.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:50 am
Tag,
Yours is a very understandable opinion. I am somewhat of the same mind, although getting access to some pictures and videos not currently available to Lyle is a plus. While I have not visited the “other” site since it was first announced, that doesn’t mean that I won’t check in from time to time. I just will not be in any particular hurry to do so. This is the site I am always in a hurry to get to and see what is posted here by Lyle and read the comments of the many people that I have come to “know” and respect.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:50 am
It’s been reported several times that Buffet likes the upside on the battery business and is not very excited about the car side of the venture. Who knows reports can be wrong, even if they all say essentially the same thing.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:51 am
The name’s already taken by a BEV manufacturer, anyway:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/
It’s a US company with US manufacturing, of course.
Like any original Zero was, their vehicles are light. high performance and highly maneuverable.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:52 am
“Not lying” and “not saying anything” are two distinct options. Sticking with the latter is sometimes the wiser.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:54 am
Correct. As usual.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:58 am
I agree, Muddy. I don’t understand DonC’s point of view. Maybe Don will expand on it some.
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July 31st, 2009 at 10:59 am
EREV compact SUV production is a good thing. Everyone knew we would be going there. And now that we have a world class player manufacturing these. The world will soon see several competitors rise to meet the challenge.
In 2006 the Honda Accord hybrid cost $35,000. It now Blue Books at $17,000. This is where Japan went wrong with their fuel efficiency program. And where GM stumbled with their “mild hybrid” program.
Sure buyers want more mpg, but not from a mechanical repair bill time bomb. And most hybrids cost $4000-$8000 more up front over non-hybrid to own.
Mr. Henderson has it exactly right when he says NGMCO must listen to the buying public and move quickly. We know NGMCO has a beautiful EREV compact SUV in the making. And that it will sell for much less than the initial offering price of Mitsubishi. Only hard core Japanese car fans will be willing to swim up to $47,000 for the Mitsubishi.
NGMCO still has the edge. Selling their new EREV SUV with the knowledge of the years of testing which have gone into the Volt is a reassuring sales point. And at $40k, in Liquid Red ~ White Hot ~ or Lutz Pink (metallic?) , it will be a very successful offering.
=D~
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:00 am
I agree I will never buy a BEV but I know others will.
The small size is a very big problem have any of you seen the photo of the smart car that was rear ended by a truck?
It is very sad
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:00 am
Yes, Toyota is traded on the New York Stock exchange as an ADR, but “foreign ownership” is only 3%. But it’s not just about profits. It’s about the R&D jobs, the engineering jobs, the management jobs, and the manufacturing jobs. And percentage wise, much more of those are in Japan than the US.
And I don’t see any advantage to becoming “oil/energy” indpendent, if we then become dependent on everyone else to manufacture our goods. During the auto hearings, Nardelli said that “we’ll be trading oil dependence for foreign technology dependence.” He’s right. And, IMHO, it’s much much worse.
If you want proof–look at Africa. They have the richest natural resources in the world. But they don’t have their own technology. Is that what you want to see happen to the US?
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:02 am
MidAmerican Holdings, a division of Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway, announced a $230 million investment in the company.
That gives MidAmerican a 10 percent stake in BYD, with the stated goal of developing storage devices for solar and wind energy, according to Bloomberg News, as well as improved battery technology for electric vehicles.
( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/01/buffett-buys-byds-battery_n_130928.html )
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:02 am
“Service jobs in mass simply don’t pay very well and add nothing to our national wealth.”
Really? I own a small service company. I employ 5 people inlcuding myself. Our customers are all over the world, mostly US, but our income goes to myself and employees who make an average of $85K each. They don’t seem to be complaining about bad pay and we certainy all buy things to add to our national wealth.
Am I part of the problem because we don’t manufacter anything?
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:03 am
It is true that Toronto has some pretty cold weather. Although being in the ‘golden horseshoe’ and the lake effect our weather is actually a lot milder than about a third of the US population.
My ‘commute’ to my business is only about 12 miles, but I only going in one day a week now, (huzzah!).
My wife likes her job, and will probably do it for awhile, so when I thought the real estate market might go bad in the future, I sold out of our larger place to a smaller place within walking distance (less than a mile) of her work a while back (back pats all around).
So both of us combined ‘commute’ between 12 (summer) and 22 (winter) miles total in a week. However, I do drive to Detroit a lot (Tiger games FTW…and of course the NAIAS), which is about 250 miles one way.
So really I don’t get a lot of value out of any of the current EV scenarios. And the platform is inconsequencial when it comes to what it can offer me.
I’d be better served with a NEV and a Prius. For me it is more of a emotional decision, as in, “Hey, I’m driving a car that never uses gas”
Really the Volt, I-MiEV or this Mitsu EREV all would get driven exaclty the same, and would do exactly same job for me (and use the same 16 kWh pack doing it), but the BEV is pure play on the gas usage/environment for me….a green statement. So that is what always draws me to it.
Sidenote: I wouldn’t be taking the Volt/Mitsu EREV to Detroit, or on long trips. I still like comfort, so I will continue to drive my 16MPG SRX pig on the longer outings. (/hypocite)
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:04 am
Europe actually has a growing trade deficit with China. Not as bad as ours, but they’re worried about it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:04 am
I do shop at Walmart, but at the same time I am very picky about my purchases. You have to pay close attention because cheaper prices can mean cheaper products.
LauraM, is the reason you don’t shop at Walmart because there are none close by, you only shop in upscale shops or because Walmart is not a unionized company? Just curious.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:08 am
Its ok, Dave G can buy whatever suits his needs. It is a big world, and it produces a lot of different types of cars. There is room for all kinds of ‘creedos’
/no biggie
…I could live with world domination of EREVs in the auto business, that would be a great thing too
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:08 am
N.Riley,
It’s good to hear that someone at least understands my stance. I’m not trying to be a wise acre, but I have a limited amount of time (I realize no one has an unlimited amount(g)), and just choose to spend it here. If I have computer access, I’m here or watching my email for comment notices.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR***************NPNS
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:08 am
Cap and Trade is good for the US economy in the long term since it will force us to put price on carbon sooner rather than later.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/opinion/05friedman.html?scp=1&sq=can%20we%20clean%20your%20clock&st=cse
As far as government health care–if the US government pays for employees health care, it removes a major cost from our businesses. That’s what Japan and Europe have been doing all along. We need to do it in order to remain competitive.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:10 am
Let me state for “the record “. When I said “Nice to read about BYD and get updated” did not mean I had changed my mind about not wanting to buy a Chinese automobile. I have not. Absolutely not! As I have said in the past, I would like to be able to buy everything I need from an American owned company with a “Made in America” label attached to it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:12 am
But in this day and age, 2009/2010, does it make since to have oversized batteries in cars just to make sure you don’t coast to a stop? These batteries and the technology is expensive and precious few are being produced currently (and in the near future). I think it is well understood that the battery supply is what is holding up increased production of BEV’s or EREV’s. Is all this unused battery capacity sitting in BEV’s really doing much to reduce the use of oil?
It just seems to me that smaller batteries, with a larger percentage of capacity being used everyday under strict control, is the most efficient way to use limited battery resources to reduce oil consumption. That is why I think the Volt is the clear current solution from the oil dependence AND range anxiety point of view.
Someday when 250 mile range, quick charge batteries are available by the millions, I’ll change my mind. But that is a long time coming.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:13 am
Yes it’s the patents. Look at Ford and their Hybrid. It’s not a Toyota as everyone thinks. Cross-License because of the patents.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:16 am
Lets call a truce on talking about the range of the i-MiEV for at least this thread . I don’t either of us want to turn it into one of ‘those threads’ We both know each other’s position pretty well (as I’m sure most of the ‘regulars’ here do as well, lol)
As for margins, on this vehicle I really have no clue. So many factors, then you have to add in Mitsu building its own packs.
What is the payback on all the R& D they have spent? What are the overheads/costs of building your own packs How much does it come down over time? What is the going forward price on lithium?
If you are comparing GM to Mitsu, GM is certainly paying a premium for their packs, LG isn’t working for free. A extra hand out generally means less margin…and is GM’s contract somehow set out on fair market value based on the raw cost of the pack. I know when I have a deal with GM, it is to make product XXX for XXX amount of time for XXX dollars.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:17 am
I assume you are not offering this explanation as an excuse for them? And, yes, history does matter. You should not let it stand in the way of becoming “friends” with other countries or doing business with them, but you should always remember your past history with them. Otherwise you may very well end up repeating a tragic portion of your history with a different result.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:17 am
Existing efficient, high mileage SUVs include:
Ford Escape Hybrid SUV
Mazda Tribute Hybrid SUV
Mercury Mariner SUV
Toyota Highlander Hybrid SUV
Lexus RX 450h (Hybrid) AWD SUV
VW Touareg TDI (Diesel) SUV (#1 and #2 at the Dakar Rally, ahead of all the gas guzzler Hummers).
Jeep Compass
Jeep Patriot
Subaru Outback Wagon
Let’s see, did I miss any?
SUVs are waaaaayyyyy ahead of pickup trucks and vans in high mileage offerings and the less bloated SUVs and CUV crossovers (including wagons) are really where the consumer action is.
The markets seem to be bifurcating. I’m going to lump decent efficiency unibody p/u trucks (few and not so great efficiency so far), SUVs, vans, CUVs, crossovers, wagons and hatchbacks into a category I call practical and everything else for personal transportation into a category I call obsolete abomination (OA). Decent efficiency coupes and convertibles I’ll call midlife crisis cougar specialty numbers.
You can tell I’m absolutely not an automotive expert.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:20 am
Excellent point, LauraM. The key is paying attention. Few people do. And you are right on the fact that the cost isn’t always more for US made products.
I have already addressed this in my buying. I will always opt for the US made or US company product, if cost is a reasonable tradeoff. Sometimes you just have to have principle.
I wish more Americans would put their money where their mouth is, particularly with cars.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:21 am
That is a good question, nasaman. Another is how many are quietly developing an EREV at this time? I am more of the opinion that there are several other companies (than the few we already know about) currently going about their business of putting the pieces together and hoping to get something out next year or very soon after.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:23 am
Of course, service jobs aren’t part of the problem. We need service jobs. And, given current technology, apparently we also need to compete with the rest of the world for them.
But manufacturing jobs generate service jobs not vice versa. If most of your customers are American, your service business probably depends on American manufacturing if you go far enough down the food chain..
To be technical–sale of natural resources also generates service jobs. But not to the same extent since there’s much less value added. And the US doesn’t have the natural resources of a Brazil or a Saudi Arabia. So we really can’t compete with them on that front.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:28 am
The flip side of that coin is that if Israel does not take out the nuclear plants in Iran and Iran does develop atomic weapons (which any sensible person has to agree is their goal) crude oil may very well rise to the same levels. Iran will be in a position to threaten their neighbors and force concessions in many aspects of life in the Middle East. Plus I don’t doubt their ability or desire to “wipe Israel off the face of the world” as they have threatened to do. And I believe they will attempt to do just that. Any nuclear testing and development by Iran will lead to tremendous tensions in the area and all prices of petroleum products will see the effect.
And yes, God Bless America. In that case we are going to really need it. Even more so than usual.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:31 am
Further to that, Mitsu itself said that it can cut the price of the entire car by more than HALF by the mid-2010s. That would indicate there is some benefit to building your own batteries, and building them on such a large scale…and a pretty sizeable margin being available in the pool as time progresses (especially if other EV makers are behind the curve for production)
Fair disclaimer: I’m more than a little skeptical on this particular Mitsu press release. (I believe them on the EVs/rollouts/timelines…not so much with pricing to the consumer). If they even manage to cut it by 20% by 2015 over the starting MSRP, I think that would be tremendous. It is a pretty over the top statement however to not expect them to drop the price by a decent percentage by 2015ish.
Article:
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June 22, 2009 (Bloomberg) — Mitsubishi Motors Corp., the maker of the i MiEV electric car, plans to cut the vehicle’s purchase price by more than half to less than 2 million yen ($21,000) as government incentives and tighter emission rules boost demand for fuel-efficient cars.
The company will cut the i MiEV’s price tag by the “mid- 2010s,” President Osamu Masuko said at the company’s annual shareholders’ meeting in Tokyo.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aJwG056AVwjI
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:32 am
Laura M – While I’m not so dismissive, I agree. Considering we were at war at one time or another with all the countries in which most of the remaining automakers are headquartered, the fact that Mitsubishi once produced under-armored yet highly maneuverable fighter aircraft more than 60 years ago is not enough to dismiss their current offereing which likely has as many compromises.
Do you stop buying Porche because it once designed tank turrets fired in anger at GIs? What about French companies that manufactured weapons used not long ago on U.S. Forces? And is current quality of Chinese goods really the primary concern when their political system is so at odds with ours (They also once shot at us in the place where Kias and Hyundais come from now)?
We don’t stop buying foreign goods because people once shot at us. We buy local goods because it directly benefits our communities, our neighbors, and our families. It keeps a strategic amount of manufacturing expertise here should problems arise in the global system.
But local manufacturers must not become dependent on this they need to be nimble and quick to respond to the market.
Buy local when you can but only when the offering is of superior quality and reasonable cost.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:34 am
I will agree with that, Muddy. I would be greatly surprised if it got much over 25 MPG. But I don’t think the final product is going to look anything like the picture as provided here. That “brick” would have a hard time even getting to the 25 MPG I would expect the final product to achieve.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:36 am
Here’s hoping you are correct.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:37 am
Call it what you will… the fact is we need to keep more jobs in the U.S. I’m well past tired of people who cry we are not playing by the rules if we bring manufacturing back to the U.S; that we are being protectionists. What is it called when other countries won’t allow U.S made products to be imported or sold into their country?
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:40 am
The Smart Car is kinda sad before being hit by a truck, don’t you think?
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:40 am
“It isn’t going to be sporty by any stretch, but who cares.”
The market, of which I’m part, that’s who. Let the all electric drive performance wars begin.
Americans will have an interest in which EREV with all electric drive with maximum torque at 0 rpm and instant acceleration at any time performs better, you betcha.
I don’t know if the thread has tackled this topic yet, but here are my metrics of choice for comparison or all electric drive vehicles:
Torque to weight ratio.
Higher torque for same weight or lower weight for same torque is better.
0-30 mph time from dead stop in top gear.
Lower time is better. Known as the Red Light or Stop Sign Grand Prix.
30-50 mph time at speed in bottom gear.
Lower time is better.
Turning radius.
Smaller radius is better for maneuverability.
Absolute torque at 0 rpm(foot pounds or pound feet preferred). Higher number is better within vehicle class (similar weight).
Braking is guaranteed to be good on any and every electric drive vehicle with regenerative braking.
- – - – - – - – -
What I could care less about because it tells me absolutely nothing about all electric drive vehicle performance in real world daily use:
horsepower
It’s torque that matters, not horsepower.
1/4 mile time
Faster than the speed limit and the folks going slower in front of you, so who cares.
0-60 mph time
How often do you do this at max acceleration in daily driving? Pretty much never. Aggressive freeway merging and bone head hooning is done at speed and the acceleration metrics I do like covers the rest.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:41 am
Coming from that standpoint, I can see why the iMiev would work well for you. You have a very unusual situation, one in which most ppl would probably not even buy an EV. But if its purely emotional or you just like cool gadgets, then what’s “best” takes a back-seat.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:42 am
GO Voltec Orlando!
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:48 am
Ha ha ha and so on.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:52 am
Don’t forget Nakajima “Kate” torpedo bombers brought to you by Fuji heavy industries (Subarau). Or the “Val” dive bomber that sank the Arizona brought to you from the town Aichi which is the home of, you guessed it, Toyota and the Prius.
Not forgetting anything here. But since Grumman doesn’t make cars, Buick will have to do for me until something with VOLTEC drive train arrives.
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July 31st, 2009 at 11:53 am
I guarantee Hyundai has something up their sleeve. Their ambition is to be the largest car company so I’m sure they aren’t just going to be waiting on the sidelines.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Puts me in the mind of “Rumpole of the Bailey”, and his wife Hilda, aka “She Who Must Be Obeyed”. Later abbreviated to “She Who Must”.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Short of GM allowing a credible outside source to drive the volt in RE mode, having another major auto manufacturer announce plans to produce an EREV is probably the best validation of “series hybrid” that we’ve seen.
/wonder if Lyle or his “peeps” (I assume Lyle doesn’t work alone on all this) has tried to contact Alun Taylor (author from Register Hardware) for additional details. From the article, “the 52bhp, 660cc turbo-charged three cylinder” appeared to be pure speculation.
//where is that BYD F3DM test drive?
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:06 pm
There is also the fact that with an SUV-style body, the solar roof, which the Karma proved workable for minor charging and taking the load off the car’s main battery for smaller loads like the A/C and stereo, could be utilized far easier on a longer roof line. While this would also preclude tie-downs without a cover, there are a great many people who buy SUV’s for the illusion of safety, not to haul cargo.
Give them EREV in an SUV body, ‘green it up’ with a supplemental solar system, and they’d stampede to it.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Yeah, if I was buying what ‘worked’ best form the EVs available (or potentially available I should say), at least from a dollars and cents/practically standpoint….cost of driving really isn’t a factor.
What EV I purchase is really a personal/emotional decision for me…well I hope it to be someday. (Right now, I’ll take just about anything).
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Did anyone mention that “Cash For Clunkers” has now run out of “Cash”? Supposedly, Congress is scrambling around trying to find some more “Cash”.
Whoop-dee-doo. Maybe this will become a permanent fixture, like 0% financing.
It really gives me a warm fuzzy feling to see my tax dollars subsidizing the sales of Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, et al. Mitsubishis, come to that.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:15 pm
-1, unnecessary name-calling. Don’t underestimate the competition.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:15 pm
I doubt you are going to find a big article/thread from GM on the new Mitsu EREV there.
/Lyle gives us the goods right across the board (all automakers) unapologetically
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:17 pm
That lasted for all of what? One week?
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Oops, I didn’t read down further…what LauraM said. Lyle gives us the whole spectrum.
/sorry Laura
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:20 pm
11 years last weekend for me…we stayed overnight in the city and saw a ballgame.
/I’ll keep her
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Why build a CUV, when you can build a lower profile Sport Wagon? (Since having a smaller cross-section is a trivial way to reduce drag.)
It could have the same interior cargo room, weight less, have less drag — and it would also have better access to roof-racks and would be easier to wash.
Of course, I only like this idea because I’m shorter than average, and I don’t like washing the roof on my compact pickup truck. Other people’s needs and tastes probably vary dramatically.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Never is indeed a very long time. Since I am retired and need one car for general use, my creedo is to buy whatever meets that need. BEV restricts one to the local area. EREV provides for longer trips to some extent. But, cross country travel will require a battery recharge infrastructure, which at this point doesn’t really exist. It will be developed gradually, but it will takes years.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:27 pm
All of the room between the frame-rails would make mounting the batteries easy. I’ve considered converting my Ford Ranger to electric drive, and it seems like attaching an electric motor directly to the differential would be the way to do it. There’s no reason the electric motor couldn’t be mounted between the rear differential and the bumper.
Once you remove the gas tank, transmission, drive shaft, and exhaust system, there really isn’t much between the frame rails — it would be sturdy, well protected, and out of the way.
Attach a hefty inverter to the traction battery with some 110V outlets and a couple of L6-30s, and you have a seriously useful machine.
Just ’cause a full sized electric / EREV pickup truck wouldn’t match my needs doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be super-cool. I’ll take mine once they scale it down to something like a 4wd S-10.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Having spent some time on the site I’d say Lyle need not worry. It’s what you get when an established corporation tries to do the internet. It just doesn’t work well because it has too many issues it needs to worry about, too many bases to touch, too many people who need to sign off on things, and so on.
FWIW most posters there are posters here, though I get the impression Capt. Jack is more appreciated here!
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:29 pm
I think for the most part, the average buyer of a electric vehicle is less concerned about performance than in just about any other segment in the auto business…except maybe the subcompact/econo-crapbox market.
EVs will some day be putting down gobs of power no doubt, but not so much right now. I don’t think anyone is going to be dancing in the streets touting the performance of a 82hp 3,500 lb Volt over a 53HP 2,800lbish (by the looks of it) Mitsu.
Generally speaking if your going to be putting down 40 grand on a small sedan and power is near the top of your list of wants…your likely going to look elsewhere.
I believe that more people will be concerned over what the ‘extended range’ MPG is, than the 1/4 mile timeslips to make there decisions here.
Those things I’m sure are important to you, and you will make up your decision based on your own factors, and I’m not trying to marginalize how you buy your car…but that is nowhere near top priority here. This is primarily electric range/’green halo’ land, with a sprinkling of lets get off oil, not use gas, be cheap to operate and drive around with some eco-smugness.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Reportedly the vehicle will be a compact SUV similar in size to the Toyota RAV-4 and will use a drivetrain similar to the Chevy Volt’s Voltec system :
Kool
4×4 for snow/high rain (rest time fwd or rwd – doesn’t matter )
Space for my weekend purchases and small family (4 people).
Zero emission commute to office ( Full EV grid power )
EREV for a week end trip.
Make sense.
Do GM also considering a Voltec V2 compact crossover ?
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
>> It really gives me a warm fuzzy feling to see my tax dollars subsidizing
>> the sales of Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, et al. Mitsubishis, come to that.
It’s actually a lot worse than that! Not only is it infuriating that my tax dollars are being used to subsidize ANY sale of WHATEVER new car, there’s bound to be gobs of abuse and fraud, accelerated landfill-cramming, and no doubt, many other problems I’m sure I’m overlooking.
Gotta love BIG GOVERNMENT… not!!!
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:43 pm
One problem I always have with citations like this is that they frequently say things that don’t seem to be necessarily accurate. The article says that Mitsubishi plans to cut the price by half by the mid-2010 (to be clear this is like 2015), but the quote upon which this claim is based doesn’t exactly say this. It only says that Mitsubishi plans to cut the price. More specifically, the quote is: “The company will cut the i MiEV’s price tag by the “mid- 2010s,” President Osamu Masuko said …”
My read is that Mitsubishi is planning to cut the price by 2010, just as GM is planning on cutting the price of the Volt by 2010. The fifty percent number comes from somewhere else and I take, like you do, with a grain of salt. What was said might have been along the lines of cutting the price of the pack and electronics by 50%, or he might have said that the price would be 50% of the current with expected rebates, or something else, and the writer just became confused. This happens all the time, and it’s why you still see things written about the ICE on the Volt recharging the batteries.
Basically you can’t believe everything you read, and I agree with your skepticism about this particular claim. I don’t think it’s a problem with the press release per se, however. My guess is that it’s a problem with the translation or the reporting. Something along those lines.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:44 pm
And I’ll bet Toyota and Honda executives are starting to get that sinking feeling that they are on the wrong side of the tracks.
____________________________
Hints at the situation being ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL aren’t constructive.
GM is also persuing BAS+ and TWO-MODE still.
Meanwhile, the market for a high-efficiency car priced in the mid-20’s is dominated by Prius… and we don’t see that changing for awhile. My average as of 4,516 miles (real-world driving, measured at the pump) is 54.1 MPG.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Isn’t the hybrid Tahoe without solar cells and a relatively minor electric (drive?) two mode over 70 k dollars? It seems like the stampede would have to flow from some very well heeled enclaves. More than 3% of the NA population?
If we’re talking about a RAV4 size then that I don’t anticipate much difference in hauling or room for solar cells.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:52 pm
That’s for a test starting with 50 cars and then expanding to 150 cars. For numbers like these the price is meaningless. It’s like trying to establish a price for the mini-E or the Honda FCX Clarity based on the current test lease prices. While this is not a lease the numbers are so tiny that the same principle of “test price” applies.
Once the numbers go up then you get a decent idea on pricing. My guess is that Mitsubishi is struggling to keep the price to under $40K. Those cells are very nice but they have got to be very pricey. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were paying $1000/kWh or more.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Cap and trade is also very good for some really big contributors to liberal democratic causes and campaigns. A lot of people and companies are going to really get rich using this program. While I am opposed to the current legislation in its current form, I am not opposed to some fair means of cleaning our air. If anyone is going to have to pay for CO2 credits I would prefer the money go to the government and be used to develop clean energy sources. It is a sad fact that Al Gore, while spouting the line he does and getting filthy rich in the process, will be a prime recipient of the cap and trade money bonanza. Al Gore is like the man who yells “Fire!” in a crowded theater while charging you to exit. He is a despicable man, in my opinion.
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Sorry, I think I misinterpreted your 1/4 mile metric there, and perhaps the intent of your post as well, my apologies…but you get my drift of where I was headed (albeit somewhat unprompted, lol)—as in today’s EVs… not so much with the performance in mind.
I’m sure someday there will indeed be a ‘affordable sport sedan’ electric vehicle market, that people will be comparing and making decisions on which EV to buy based on performance as well as things like range…but just not near term.
/have a good one
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July 31st, 2009 at 12:58 pm
If most people want an EREV, then everyone will start making them, and they’ll get cheap.
Eventually you are of course right. But in the near term, if 80% of the cost of the battery is the raw cost of the materials, then it’s difficult to predict quick price reductions because the cost of extractive materials go up with demand (think gasoline).
GM has said they’re looking to reduce the price of the Gen II Volt, but while some of that will come from the battery pack (including the electronics) some will also come from the genset and, in particular, the ICE.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Why are we going this route with no info. We don’t even know if that’s the final body style. Don’t let Statik suck you into the anti-matter zone of influence just because he’s bored with the comments. Never underestimate the power of the dark side of the force
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I agree, the press release has a certain unicorn-type feel about it…although I think it does give a good indication of which direction the price will be heading shortly after they are up to full production.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:04 pm
There’s a post about this at allcarselectric.com this AM.
Mike:
Yeah, plus the increase in fuel economy required to qualify is/was just pathetically small. I can see the public policy justification for the tax credits offered for Volt like vehicles which are true game changers, but this is just nothing but a bald faced subsidy for the car industry.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:07 pm
To honest, there aren’t any Walmarts near me. I’d have to make a special trip. But I wouldn’t shop there anyway as a matter of principle for several reasons.
The first is their role in moving jobs overseas. They account for more than 10% of the annual trade deficit with China all by themselves. More than that, they have forced many other companies to move jobs to China in order to compete. They also enforce quality reduction in many goods. It’s kind of like the effect McDonalds has on the beef sold in the supermarket. (Trust me, it’s not good.)
Secondly, I’m not a proponent of unionization. I think unions empower small groups at the expense of everyone else. The consumer. The taxpayer. Etc. And, in fact, I blame much of the US auto indutries problems on the UAW.
But that doesn’t mean I’m OK with mistreating employees. Walmart employees barely make minimum wage, and they work for one of the most profitable companies in the US. And I’ve heard way too many horror stories about forced unpaid overtime. And similar misuses of authority. If any company needs a union. It’s Walmart. It’s not like those jobs can go overseas.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Yeah, as the late, great, Jim Healy always used to say:
“They’re selling like cold cakes!”
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Has N-GM hinted at this lately, or did magic unicorn horn dust carried by an optimistic wind from Hogwarts Academy get sprinkled onto someones crystal ball?
Just askin’!
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:23 pm
You’re right. I shouldn’t have been so dismissive. I apologize to anyone I offended.
What I should have said is that I believe that we can’t hold onto the grudges of the past. When you hold a grudge, you only hurt yourself. That holds true for countries as well as people.
About buying local–the US is uncompetitive mainly because a)we’ve let ourselves become the debt fueled economy, b)we’re the reserve currency of the world c) foreigners like our debt (or at least they used to) and d)some countries (China/Japan/South Korea) subsidize their exporters, and our unsubsidized industries can’t compete.
We do have several advantages. Right now we still have the best infrastructure in the world. Unfortunately, it’s old and on the verge of falling apart. In which case, we’ll be at a competitive disadvantage instead of having a competitive advantage. We also spend the most on R&D have have the technological edge in many fields. But we’re losing our edge there to.
So, as an American, I do what I can to compensate by buying American. And from countries that trade relatively fairly with us. There’s nothing else I can do about it since our government refuses to take any action to protect us.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I read about a F3DM test drive, dont rembember where but it was not as sporty as a Volt, more like an econobox type performance.. they also clarified that the 62 mile all electric range is at a speed of 30mph, so it will probably be about half that at highway speeds, depending on drag and tires. BYD is disappointed on low sales so they are reducing the cost to $16k, apparently $22k is too high for the Chinese consumer.
The cost of gas is subsidized in China so there is not much demand to buy high mpg cars.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Now that is a stylish car! Probably much less aerodynamic than the Volt, but it will appeal to a different market segment.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Ah, a refreshing breath of fresh air. Thank you. Never fear! We understand our friend Statik and will continue to relish the many “whippings” he receives on this site daily. Right, Statik?
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:32 pm
He’ll probably have one before the rest of us!
Actually I’d buy a BEV. But you have to have the right setup for it, which at a minimum means having at least one other car. In Europe they have different cars for different purposes, and my guess is that in NA we’ll move in the same direction.
I’d like a short hop BEV, a longer commuter EREV, and an iCE for road trips. I used to want something like a Pesu for the short hops (http://www.flytheroad.com) – would that be fun or not — but I’m concluding that it has to have at least two side by side seats (like an Apera).
If you only have one car then if you want an EV mode then you’re going to want a EREV. Can’t see much of a way around that.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I think the EREV Orlando is a wish many on this site have been making lately. It is a great looking vehicle and I do hope GM will bring it out soon. It would only make it better, in my opinion, if it were offered in two flavors – with and without EREV.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:37 pm
You’re right. I was too dismissive. And, of course, attacking Pearl Harbor was wrong. But, I do think we should look at the Japanese actions in their context. Japanese industry was expanding, and they needed natural resources, and markets. We cut them off from American oil exports. So they attacked Pearl Habor. That’s what empires did back then. Britain fought wars with China in order to force China to open their market to British Opium. That wasn’t OK either.
The Japanese war crimes are a seperate issue. Their treatment of American POW’s was horrifying. And so was the use of Chinese comfort women. Etc.
But right now, Japan is a major US ally. Most of the WWII generation isn’t even alive anymore. Japan still looks out for its own economic interests, but you can’t blame them for that. We should do the same. But, of course, we don’t. At least not enough and not in the right ways. But that has nothing to do with WWII.
Of course, we should remember our history. HIstorical patterns tend to repeat. But the historical pattern I’m worried about right now is the decline of the Roman/Spanish/British/Dutch empires. And how we’re following in their footsteps. But that’s a completely different story.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I have not given up. I was just pointing out a inevitable truth. The vast majority of Americans really don’t care where there stuff comes from and purchase solely on price and quality. Country of origin is of little to no consequence. I personally spend way more than most people going out of my way to buy US goods and drive my wife crazy with my incessant label reading.
Case in point: I recently bought some saw blades for my business and did some research on the internet. I chose the brand I did based on the fact that people on line were saying that this company made their blades in the US. When the blades arrived, stamped right on them were the words Made in the Czech Republic. At least it wasn’t China. I really don’t know if anybody makes saw blades here anymore. I really don’t blame companies either, because this country has become very hostile to manufacturing and promises to become more so in the future. That is why I predict that in the near future nearly all cars and trucks will be made somewhere else.
Not giving up, just sad, pathetic fact.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Don’t worry about it. Maybe it’s just me, but I find it difficult to keep track of all the comments with the new format. There are definately advantages, but I miss posts all the time.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:47 pm
“EREV provides for longer trips to some extent.”
Wait… is this because the current Volt fuel tank is projected to only be around ~7 gallons, and thus uncomfortable for 2,000 mile trips? (6 stops for fuel rather than 4 or 5)
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:50 pm
As the packs get larger the cells are stressed less. Let’s just say you have a 15 kWh pack and a 60 kWh pack and you can use the entire pack. Let’s also say that you need to draw 500 wh/minute when pulling or hauling.
The cells in the first pack will discharge in thirty minutes, which is a rate of 2C (a full discharge in one hour is 1C), meaning that the cells will be discharged after half an hour. The cells in the second pack will discharge after two hours for a rate of .5C, which means the cells will fully discharge over two hours.
The C rate is critical for battery cell survival. The higher the C rate the shorter the cell life. And using only using a part of the pack doesn’t really help. It reduces the number of charge/discharge cycles but it doesn’t affect the C rate. (For example if you only used half the 15 kWh pack the cells would still discharge at the 2C, they’d just stop discharging after 15 minutes rather than 30 minutes). The only way you cut the C rate is to limit the power the cells need to generate, and the only way to do that is to limit the power needed by the vehicle. Since pickups can and will be used for hauling and towing loads that you can’t control, as a manufacturer you can’t easily limit the power demand.
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:51 pm
dont assume the aerodynamics are bad…
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Me too. I don’t like my tax dollars subsidizing GM and Ford’s sales either. But I accept it’s necessary under the circumstances. But Toyota? And Honda? And Nissan? It’s infuriating. And they spent a billion dollars on it! And now they’re putting more money into it?
That’s a billion dollars that could have repaired a bridge somewhere. Our our levies. Or reparing our water systems. Or our electric grid. Or been given to the DOE for energy research. Or been used to weatherize some buildings. I could go on…
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July 31st, 2009 at 1:51 pm
You got that right, Noel. It is a poorly designed tool to create sales for the auto industry. I would feel better about it if it were limited to Ford, GM and Chrysler. Our good congress and president can’t seem to do anything right except find ways to spend us into bankruptcy. Just look at what is coming down the pike next.
I am all for getting real “clunkers” off the road. But the qualifications were so loose it is stupid. But what else do we expect. When you send people to DC and let them exist in their own little world insulated from the things you and I must bear you can’t expect them to do any different. How about making congress, the administration, the courts and all government workers use the same retirement and health care system that they straddle the rest of us with? That would be a good start towards straightening out some of the mess in DC. This, of course, is just my opinion. Others will, I am certain, disagree.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:03 pm
No need to worry. There is plenty of money to go around to do all those things. Just you wait and see. Congress will pass the spending bills to get everything done. Never you fear. We can put our faith and trust in congress and the president to do what is right for America. If they need more money, the Federal Reserve will give it to them. Never fear. Never fear. Never…………
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:03 pm
whats the point if you dont make the batteries?.. It is a core techonology for a BEV manufacturer.. just like making engines is a core tech for a conventional auto manufacturer.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:04 pm
If you read Berkshire Hathaway’s yearly letter–at the 2008 shareholder meeting, he had the BYD plug in on display as the “car of the future.” So much for not shorting America.
http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2008ltr.pdf
That said, I seriously don’t see him risking his life by actually driving one of these things.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:06 pm
It is true that the UK price of $30,000 – $37,000 USD (at time of press) was for 200 vehicles (50 now +150 in 1st half 2010). It does also say, “Shipment numbers will increase if demand warrants it, of course.”
…I would assume most people interpret that as, ‘at the same price,’ not more available at $10,000-$17,000 more if the demand at $30-$37 is there.
/I guess we will just have to wait and see for the ‘definitive’ answer. We should know either way in a few months, I mean it does hit the public streets in mid 2010 in Europe. You figure they have to be taking pre-orders at least 3-6 months ahead of that.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:06 pm
How different is PHEV than EREV, really? I mean, as near as I can tell, the only fundamental difference is whether the linkage between the ICE and the wheels is a shaft or a wire.
I think what matters is being able to get to work and drive around town without using gasoline.
If you were to ask me (and you didn’t, but I’m a loud and opinionated short dude), I’d say that the battery capacity and the performance of the car in electric-only mode is what matters. That, and getting off of foreign oil. Or reducing CO2 emissions. Depending on your bent.
The details of the implementation are super-cool and I like to geek out more than the next guy, but in the big scheme of things, any reasonably efficient mechanism is acceptable. Since Ford and Toyota already have working systems that can combine the power mechanically, using that seems to make sense. Since GM didn’t have that working for small cars, trying a high-risk high-reward path seems like a winner for them. No matter who comes up with the no-oil-to-get-to-work vehicle, I win.
Currently, my no-oil-to-get-to-work vehicle is made by Trek.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:09 pm
jeffhre … crystal ball?
People who have followed the GM saga over these last three years know what was forecast and what has happened. I like Wags, it’s just that he wasn’t being honest when announcing the status of the (his) former GM. And I don’t buy his being ‘blindsided by the economy’ excuse. A stock price of $20 with 80 billion in the bank sank to $40 billion in debt and a stock price of $1.75 on his watch. This transpired in 3 years time.
We are still waiting on the 39 mpg non-hybrid for under $20k. And the beautiful new Camaro has just recently made it to the boulevards.
The truth is that we have seen 2 or 3 more truck/SUV models released in the last year. Still no new green cars (I don’t count the rickshaw vehicle). And we have seen an unyielding cash burn literally cause the former GM to evaporate.
This is why I believe Mr. Henderson is going to build on his refined Volt platform and offer a SUV type vehicle. What else can he mean when he says, “We will listen closely and act quickly”.
I am keeping the faith and wish to buy from NGMCO.
=D~
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Right.
So how in any way are the current crop of 40 mile BEV mini pickups ahead here?
I get that they work, people use them everyday I’m not disputing that in any way.
BUT, an EREV pickup WHEN it’s towing or hauling has the option to start it’s genset and NOT abuse its battery.
I absolutely expect the truck to run it’s genset when working hard.
It can run on the AER when un or lightly loaded.
I still think EREV would be easier on the battery pack.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:23 pm
EREV me?
http://garfwod.250free.com/chevy_orlando.jpg
=D~
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:29 pm
While not as likely true for Gen 1 Voltec, Gen 2 (or 3), if the A123 cells are used, ought not to have any problems with depth-of-discharge degradations. The last breakthrough with “electron lanes to funnel electrons down into and out of the nano-tubes” have this advancement of the A123’s, resilient against a quicker degradation as was described.
(I think it would be outstanding if the second pack for Gen 1 could actually be tech-upgraded to an A123 Gen 2 or 3 pack if it worked out that that would be very compelling for the customer at no additional cost when it is time.)
Although helping in the same way with BEV’s, I still think that there are many potentials with BEV’s even with that latest advancement that may ultimately prove more “business-risky”.
But I would not mind at all to be wrong on that.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Yep, I think 1/4 mile timeslips tell you nothing about electric drive vehicle daily performance, though 8 second times for electrics are commonplace.
I care about having a high performance car, not MPG. For that reason, the Volt’s for me. Apparently, it is also very efficient overall, but so what. You want most efficiency, put it in ECO mode (default?) and drive like a sane person. You want to crush a gas supercar off the line and in instant acceleration with it, go ahead.
“If your going to be putting down 40 grand on a small sedan and power is near the top of your list of wants…your likely going to look elsewhere.”
Huh? Why would I look elsewhere? The Volt offers maximum torque from 0 rpm up to about half the top speed, instant, seamless acceleration at any time and luxury quiet operation, which absolutely no 40 grand mass production small sedan currently can. State your case in detail with examples so we can see what you have in mind as a better luxury performing same price alternative.
“people will be comparing and making decisions on which EV to buy based on performance as well as things like range”
Yep, you just described me. I want the highest performance, most efficient, longest range, easiest/faster recharging electric drive vehicle for the least money. What do you expect – I’m a consumer.
The Volt offers better than V6 like performance as it’s also got maximum torque from 0 rpm up to about half the top speed, instant, seamless acceleration at any time and luxury quiet operation, all thanks to electric drive. I’ll buy it for those additional and best of class luxury performance qualities alone, thank you very much. It’s not my fault if it’s good for the economy, improves national security and saves the planet by accident in doing so.
In your example, “82hp 3,500 lb Volt over a 53HP 2,800lbish (by the looks of it) Mitsu” the Volt would win the power/weight contest, though I wish you would use meaningful torque, not meaningless horsepower. Score a big one for the Volt.
Don’t think for one minute that performance doesn’t matter to Americans (and others). Didn’t GM have a comment on vehicle power wars within the last couple of days? Electric drive is so efficient, it leaves huge room for performance wars while maintaining vastly superior efficiency relative to ICE direct drive.
BTW, just like any full gas supercar, most of which have a 50 mile or less range when run full tilt, if you want to extend your vehicle’s range, drive it in a reasonable manner.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I’m sorry about the way I put that DaV8or.
It’s the same here, I do my best to buy Canadian made things, but it can be very challenging.
I really can’t buy a car from a Canadian manufacturer, (Zenn just doesn’t count) so I’ll do the next best thing and buy one made in NA.
Maybe Magna will come through… With my Ampera…
WAY too much of our manufacturing is gone now too.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:35 pm
The sickest part of this is that “Cash for Clunkers” is going to be a drop-in-the-bucket compared to socialized medicine.
And for all its ridiculous expenditures, socialized medicine will arguably do a lot more harm than good.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:35 pm
The Orlando looks good, doesn’t it Dave K?
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Top view of the “Lectric”?
http://garfwod.250free.com/orlando_lectric.jpg
=D~
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Don’t forget us up here to the north of you, us Canadians totally burned down your White House in 1814.
…we could be back again at anytime.
/pls fear
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Makes it look even better IMO.
I could see it as an ICE only vehicle or as an EREV or as both. Take your pick. GM should offer it both ways.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Fair enough, and I actually don’t think it looks all that bad.
I DO own an SUV and I use it to pull trailers.
It isn’t good on gas but it has it’s uses.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:45 pm
You get no respect at all Noel.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Mostly unicorn dust, but if Mitsu is serious then GM could spin out an EREV Orlando in a shortish period of time since it is the same platform as the Volt.
I think keeping it EREV only would be simpler for the customer to ‘get’.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Wait, you reported the horsepower figures for the generators. That means squat for wheels to road acceleration.
You need to compare the torque and stats of the electric drive motor, controlled for vehicle weight, which is what matters, to compare.
Har-har. You almost had me there.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:51 pm
As much as I hate government deficits, etc., I think it’s worth borrowing money to fix our infrastructure. That’s legitimately investing as opposed to consumption. And we certainly need to do it.
The American Society of CIvil Engineers gave the US infrastructure a D. They said it will take 2.2 trillion to fix it. The 72 billion alloted in the stimulus plan will barely provide a band-aid..
http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2009/grades.cfm
I can’t think of anything that spells “third world country” more than broken down infratructure, bridges that collapse, levees that give way, and unreliable electricity. Katrina obviously didn’t teach anything.
By the way, I know that “third world country” isn’t the PC term. Apparently, it’s now “developing economy.” But we’re not developing. We’re decaying. There’s a huge difference, IMHO.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Wow, now that is a sidetrack if I have ever seen one.
However, I look forward to $200+ barrels of oil. Finally, I can look forward to having my own peronsal island made into the shape of a butterfly, or seahorse in Lake Ontario when we run out of things to do with all the money from exporting oil.
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July 31st, 2009 at 2:56 pm
All right, now I’m getting really off topic (not that I haven’t already)–but our health care system is already broken. The only reason it works as well as it does is because of government intervention.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/opinion/31krugman.html
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:00 pm
My personal reasons are that I like the fact that ONLY electricity powers the wheels in an EREV. There are tons of ways to create electricity, thus making the car very versatile. I also see it as a closer step to a pure BEV then those made by PHEV’s. Being an electrical engineer may have something to do with my opinion. If I’m stuck w/an EREV (which, with the current battery tech, I personally am) then I’d love to have some other practical means of a range extender instead of an ICE. I’m not going to say the “H” word, but anything that provides electricity is valid. And when the battery tech advances enough, just remove the range extender, and you have a BEV. The engineering is already done.
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Then get ‘em back by getting one of these Zeros:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/
All electric drive for performance torque, made in the US by a US manufacturer.
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:03 pm
There is an interesting conflict on that one.
On one side if you make your own cells then you control supply and production.
On the other side, you order from say LG for now, but then A123 has a new ’super’ cell that costs less so you buy some of those. Then there is a huge unicorn roundup and “the cell that cannot be named” appears. You now have the option to buy from there.
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:15 pm
EDIT: moved up to stay in thread line
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:15 pm
As to the Roman/Spanish/Dutch/British empires, I completely agree with you. I have often referred here to the works of Professor Chalmers Johnson. In the second book of the “Blowback Trilogy”, “The Sorrows of Empire”, he makes exactly that argument, in excruciating detail.
As to the transgressions of Japan in WW II, I haven’t forgotten, and it’s one of the many reasons I don’t buy their stuff if i can help it. Likewise Germany, come to that.
On the other hand, nobody’s perfect. I recently
finished “Retribution – The Battle For Japan”, by Max Hastings. He relates in detail the incendiary bombing of almost all of the cities of Japan, resulting in the death by fire of hundreds of thousands of civilians, many time those killed in Hirosima and Nagasaki.
He quotes no less a personage as Gen. Curtis LeMay as saying that, if the US had lost the war, “we would have been prosecuted as war criminals”. There’s an old saying to the effect that the victors write the history. I’m not excusing a single thing the Japanese did. I’m just saying that there’s enough blame to go around.
I can’t quote him exactly, but William Tecumseh Sherman famously remarked to the effect that :
“War is hell boys. It’s nothing but pure hell.”
Which means to me, among other things, that exposure to that hell often turns ordinary, respectable, people into monsters, either temporarily or permanently. And we are not immune, by any means.
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Jeffhre/N Riley:
I actually dont eat or drink, I get my nourishment from discontent, and red numbers beside my name.
—
That vehicle (as shown) definitely gets way more than 25 MPG with a 53 HP turbo 3 banger. The CdA couldn’t possibly be north of 7.5, I would think at the max.
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Granted, however the Chevy Volt’s facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/chevroletvolt) was updated fairly quickly to welcome another EREV to the party. It is officially GM-run, correct?
The best validation an engineer can get is for other engineers to agree that his* solution is the way to go. Granted, no-one wants a competitor taking market share, but with a tech as promising as EREV that is inevitable. In my view, it won’t be too long before Ford and Toyota have to change their tune and hop on the EREV bandwagon (although I’m sure they’ll stick with only PHEVs as long as they can**). GM simply has to produce superior product, not overly rely on being the first. Mitsu has a small enough market in the US that the Volt should not really be affected, but the bigger players will follow soon. Just my dos centavos.
*Or occasionally her. I wish it was “her” more often, although mostly just for my sake
**And of course PHEVs are better for some applications.
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Well, it lives on…awhile longer…well, maybe.
The House just passed a measure to put another 2 billion into it (although the Senate could beat that up some).
It blew through 250 mil of the first billion in only a few days…and their was a monster backlog on the books to be processed.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090731/ANA08/907319974/1033
…so I wouldn’t probably erase where you penciled in the $4,500 off your Volt
EDIT: Here is a non-subscription based link that is up now:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/31/report-house-approves-2-billion-more-for-cash-for-clunkers-se/
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
And this leaves us to do what? Live in the forest and contemplate our navels?
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:39 pm
I know, lol.
I just used what I had to work with…I have no clue what that Mitsu is bringing, or what the torque is on either. (Bad for comparison for sure…but what can you do right now? Best we can do)
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July 31st, 2009 at 3:40 pm
“Once depleted, a small petrol engine [...] will kick in. This will drive a generator, which in turn will power the electric-drive motors, re-charge the battery pack and keep you moving for another 200 miles or so.” My emphasis added
Motors, did they say MOTORS?!
I am a big fan of AWD and that is the natural conclusion if there’s more than one drive motor in an electric vehicle. I hope that wasn’t a typo.