We just heard from Volt lead designer Bob Boniface on a webchat and he was able to shed some light on issues related to the design of the Volt among other things. Some key information is as follows:
Ports
He confirmed the Volt will have two ports, one for gas and for for charging each on opposite sides of the vehicle. The charge port is in the front quarter, driver’s side.
Change from Concept to Production Form
The never ending questions of why the car changed from concept to production continued. Bob explained that the proportions between the two are drastically different because “the concept powertrain layout was completely different and pushed the front wheels far forward giving us the long hood we all loved.” This though produced a Chevy Tahoe-sized wheelbase of 116″ which as he put it “made drivability and maneuverability unmarketable.”
Coefficient of Drag
Boniface still wouldn’t publicly confirm the Volt’s CD, stating that “many of our competition quote grossly exaggerated aero figures that are not repeatable when we test their vehicles in our tunnel,” in particular to a reference about the Tesla Model S having a CD of 0.27.
“If I quote an actual GM derived tunnel figure,” he said, “it may not look impressive to you when, in fact, it is superior to most if not all of our competition.”
Finally he assures us “The Volt aero performance is second only to the EV1 in GM history.”
He also noted GM will test the 2010 Prius’ aerodynamics next week and says “I expect the Volt to stand up to the competition.”
Colors
He said “We will have a full range of colors,” but “you will have to wait until we get closer to launch to find out all colors.” Boniface also reported there will be more than one trim level and that GM may take customer feedback in determining color options.
Low Font End
It was noticed in the IVer video that the front end of the Volt appears precariously low to the ground, especially the air intake port.
Boniface explains “we took the Volt ride height down as low as possible without violating GM best practices.”
“The piece to which you are referring is a flexible airdam that sits fairly low to the ground (same height as Corvette airdam),” he writes. “This piece is a big aero enabler and should not be damaged by a hit to a curb.”
Future Voltec Vehicles
Boniface excites us with prospects for the future now that Volt design work is done. His team is “working on some other (secret) projects now,” he says.
Charge Sustaining Mode
Boniface decided to take a non-design question about why GM hasn’t allowed anyone outside the company to experience driving the Volt while in generator mode. He said “I have driven the mule in charge sustaining mode and, frankly, I don’t know what all the fuss is about.”
“It was remarkably smooth and quiet with a nearly seamless transition,” he said. “I think the team wants it to be perfect before letting others drive it.”
To make sure he was perfectly clear, Bob actually made a cameo appearance in our GM-Volt.com comments section, which by the way to my knowledge is the first time any GM executive has done so in the site’s history. He said:
This entry was posted on Wednesday, July 29th, 2009 at 10:00 am and is filed under Design, Voltec. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.When I said that I did not understand what all the fuss was about, I was referring to the internal fuss. Of course I understand that this is a critical part of the EREV experience and people are eager to understand this part of the puzzle. The point was that the transition is so good that I do not know why we do not allow people to experience it.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:02 am)Another great report, Lyle. What is in store for us in the next chat session? Maybe we can get some real update information on someone’s driving experience with the Volt in range extending mode. A good chat about that would go a long way to settle some issues.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:09 am)From the article:
Low Font End
It was noticed in the IVer video that the front end of the Volt appears precariously low to the ground, especially the air intake port.
Boniface explains “we took the Volt ride height down as low as possible without violating GM best practices.”
“The piece to which you are referring is a flexible airdam that sits fairly low to the ground (same height as Corvette airdam),” he writes. “This piece is a big aero enabler and should not be damaged by a hit to a curb.”
——————————————–
I asked this question of Bob Boniface. One that was answered of the many I asked.
Somehow I just don’t believe the statement about it should not be damaged. How many times have any of you seen cars with the lower air dam seriously damaged and “hanging” loose looking? Many times, I am sure. I suppose time will tell, won’t it?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:13 am)I am assuming the secret project he is working on is the new small car GM is to build in the U.S. Other than that, I don’ t have a clue.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:13 am)Thanks Lyle!
Beautiful car.
Anyone else think the space between the headlight and the marker light below it forms a lightning bolt? If it was intentional, it’s the most understated thing I’ve ever noticed from GM… The same company that gave us design language like ‘plastic underbody cladding’, horizontal-bar-though-grille, and a dictionary’s worth of typographically-illfitting acronyms and buzzwords on the back end of the car.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:17 am)I am glad Bob Boniface made a cameo appearance on the site yesterday to further explain his chat session statement about driving in charge sustaining mode (what we refer to a range extending mode). His appearance and explanation was greatly appreciated and welcome. I wish him all the luck in his secret project and I hope it will be fruitful and successful. Thanks again, Bob for your answers to our questions (when you were able to answer them directly without going beyond what GM allows).
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:22 am)finally putting to rest the long running suspicions on the charge sustaining mode.
One down, several more to go
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:30 am)I don’t know what all the fuss is about.
__________________________
It wrecks the promise of transparency.
Why hide information about the very aspect that makes Volt unique?
Of course, the moment someone does get to experience it, they’ll immediately see what the MPG gauge indicates.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:39 am)I read once where a fan dance is a series of calculated exposures. There is no reason not to disclosure the size of the gas tank in the existing IVERS, or let someone independent of GM drive the Volt from “full charge” (85% of charge) for 100 miles so the before and after performance could be compared. GM is not being transparent, they are timing the disclosures to sustain market interest, IMHO.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:43 am)I took his “secret projects” comment to mean more Voltec models, but of course he wasn’t specific, and maybe that is sub-conscious wishful thinking on my behalf too. I guess we can only hope?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:46 am)Maybe so, but I am sure they are trying not to give anything away to the competition. There is 17 months until the end of 2010. Plenty of time for the competition to use Volt information to create a response or put out negative comments to confuse the consumer. I think GM is correct doing it this way. Although, I don’t see why not release the size of the gas tank unless they have not yet determined the final size. If so, why not just say so.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:48 am)Agreed. That was an up-standing and friendly thing to do to provide clarification to the comment. Nice to have the GM guys drop in once and awhile like that, and hope it happens more often. Who knows, maybe Statik will get that pink tie sooner than he thinks?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:48 am)I think you’re right.
And I really can’t blame them.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:50 am)I particularly liked his bit about Coefficient of Drag. Of course we’ve only got his word to go by but CD isn’t something you’d get independently verified. I’ve wondered why we didn’t have a real number, but it seems like he’s saying the other guys lie and we’d rather not tell you anything than tell you a lie. I can live with that for now, but once the design is final I’d be curious to see a head to head comparison between the volt, EV1, and prius all using the same test at the same location.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:52 am)On my ‘92 and ‘97 Saturn SL2s, the front air dam was fairly low. It didn’t exactly drag on the ground when exiting the driveway, or leaving a parking lot onto the street. But it was low, and I did introduce each car’s air dam to a few parking-lot stops, and a curb or two (… or twenty
.
The thing is, that air dam was not “hard mounted”, but rather, it was clipped on in such a way that it had some room to flex. IIRC it even had a couple of springs attached to keep it pointed downward, but so that it could “give way” easily if contacted by a solid object.
Hopefully they can use (or even improve on) this concept for the Volt’s necessarily-low air dam.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:56 am)I’ll grant you this, it’s definitely a fine line to walk.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:59 am)I have owned a Pontiac Solstice since they first arrived. (car #51) It is the lowest car GM has ever sold, even lower than the Corvette. It has a little plastic air dam underneath, and I can tell you that now coming up on my forth year of ownership, that air dam is still hanging in there just fine. However, if you care about your car, you learn quickly to alter your driving habits. Enter and exit driveways slow and at an angle preferably. Slow way down to a crawl for speed bumps, and you will learn quickly not to pull up to the curb or wheel stopper when parking.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:59 am)JMO, but while a drag coefficient could be used to claim bragging rights, real-world AER and overall performance is going to trump all that. I wouldn’t care if it was a total brick aerodynamically, if I got 47 MPC at 65 MPH.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:10 am)I smacked my G6’s front air dam on the incline into my driveway probably about a couple dozen times, they are fairly robust…but I did eventually manage to obliterate it/cut it in half.
It (the air dam) is pretty flexible…but they can still very easily be severed if speed is applied to the collision (which is what happened to me when I busted mine, I was probably going 15 MPH)
Sidenote: I assume what we are looking at on the Volt, and on my G6 are basically the same thing. I probably have 3 inches more clearance on the G6.
Volt air dam:
http://www.motorauthority.com/content/thumbs/f/i/first_pre_production_chevrolet_volt_prototype_001-0625-950×650.jpg
Side, side note: I just got rid of it (G6) when I picked up the SRX, GM doesn’t take notice at all if it is missing, lol.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:14 am)So what is the MPG in generator mode?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:19 am)@Van
“they are timing the disclosures to sustain market interest, IMHO.”
lol, no offense but that sounds like “Hype Maintenance” well performed with academy awards to EEStor.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:26 am)“we took the Volt ride height down as low as possible without violating GM best practices.”
Aw man, my 97 Saturn hit’s that fron thingy all the friggin time. Whateva dude. Ditto for my co-worker who has a Vette. Don’t recall the year though. This is just gonna be the fact of life and ownership.
As for the CD, what’s the big secret? It’s not like GM is gonna change the aerodynamics just to get better values. If GM is so damn confident of how they designed / engineerd the Volt, then really why hide it? So the Model S thang has a low “Stated” CD, big friggin whop. And so what if they see what the Volt get’s and they redesign for even a lower CD? Big friggin whop. It’s not a race for the best CD value, just get the product out…..
Sheeeeesh….
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:27 am)To be true : I started getting bored on these chats .No real thing comes out.
Look at the chat answers ( I dont need to say its great because i am not GM PR )
:03
[Comment From David]
Hi Bob, Can you give us an approximate number of how many mpg the volt will achieve after the battery runs out?
2:04
Bob Boniface: When battery is depleted you should expect several hundred more miles running on engine generator.
–Question is on MPG and answer is bla bla
2:24
[Comment From Lyle Dennis, GM-Volt.com]
Hi Bob – you mentioned that car was “meeting aerodynamic performance,” what exactly does that mean, and are you able to tell us the actual CD at this point in time? Tesla mentioned its yet to be built mode S has a CD of 0.27
2:28
Bob Boniface: Hi Lyle. People may think we are skirting the aero issue by not quoting our tunnel figures. We are not. The fact of the matter is that many of our competition quote grossly exaggerated aero figures that are not repeatable when we test their vehicles in our tunnel. If I quote an actual GM derived tunnel figure, it may not look impressive to you when, in fact, it is superior to most if not all of our competition. It is very much like the horsepower race back in the 60s. The Volt aero performance is second only to the EV1 in GM history.
– Again no numbers or worse numbers or Gm machine calibration error. Or they dont have data to publish on toyota’s claims are false ( do you think they dont release data if they find its false ? they compare each car in advertisement to say GM cars are better )
2:28
[Comment From Paul]
Can you compare and contrast the Volt styling and aerodynamics against the 2010 Prius?
2:29
Bob Boniface: We plan to test the 2010 Prius this week and I expect the Volt to stand up to the competition.
Again : not done or fear to say ours is inferior. Please note : Only stand up to competition and not stand above competition.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:29 am)“Anyone else think the space between the headlight and the marker light below it forms a lightning bolt?”
Huh?
Whatcha smokin man? I don’t see it…
Whatever it is man you need to puff puff GIVE! so we can all see it!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:31 am)GM is not being transparent, they are timing the disclosures to sustain market interest, IMHO.
_________________________________________
What market interest? No one cares except at sites like this. GM is being so transparent that every one not on the “fringe” as Tag said, has moved on to the next next thing, 16 months before the car is even introduced. All advertising has been low key to non existent.
We should probably not take every thing GM does as a personal affront. Volts will eventually be available with full documentation and test drives even.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:33 am)Just a wild guess, but I’m thinking the complete absence of the air dam would probably reduce AER by a mile (at the very most). Do you think that’s a reasonable guess, Statik?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:35 am)I didn’t think about it in those terms but it makes sense. There is no underwriters labs crew checking for BS or even methodology differences that could give one car maker an advantage that doesn’t exist independent of their unverified tests.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:43 am)“We plan to test the 2010 Prius this week and I expect the Volt to stand up to the competition.”
Soooo…….
Did they go out and buy the Prius or did they rent one or did they call Toy and ask for one to “Test”?
Just curious.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:44 am)I have a 2000 Corvette with one of these air dams. It’s very pliable and the only thing I’ve seen is that it can get scratched up. Of course, if you hit anything with enough force it will break, The beauty of this piece is that it’s very easy to replace and is extremely cheap. I had to buy one when I bought my Vette and it was about $15. I’ve had the same one on since (I bought it about 6 years ago) then and have no issues at all. One more thing – I’ve lowered my Vette about 2 inches so I’m actually lower than the standard Vette and again, have had no issues.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:50 am)“Volts will eventually be available with full documentation and test drives even.”
Dude, the IV’rs have already been on the road. Where’s their test data?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:53 am)The game being playing is how Volt is portrayed.
ELECTRIC has been the theme for many enthusiasts and GM itself. They treat usage of the engine as a rare need, emphasizing the ideal of no gas at all rather than a dramatic reduction.
HYBRID is how the typical consumer sees Volt, an expensive way to dramatically reduce gas consumption.
Some of us would like an affordable option, where the battery-pack is much smaller. But that is totally dependent on the MPG in generator mode.
Each time the question is evaded, the belief that it could actually be competitive that way fades.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:55 am)Every manufacturer buys one or more cars released by every competitor and then takes them apart piece by piece to see what they can learn.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:58 am)Great article. But can execs stop saying things like “made drivability and maneuverability unmarketable”, and use normal English? Like “the concept design would’ve handled like a 1983 Malibu wagon”?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:03 pm)The one obvious point that everyone seems to be missing is that Bonifice’s answer suggests the transition from EV mode to ICE mode is going to be awesome. I say this because he thinks it’s fine as it is. If the engineers didn’t think they could make it much better — if they thought it was close to being as good as they could get it — they’d demonstrate it. it wouldn’t be a big deal. The fact that they want the time to make it better suggests to me that they think there they can improve it considerably.
So if Bonifice thinks it’s good, and the engineers think it can be significantly improved, that’s good news.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:04 pm)“HYBRID is how the typical consumer sees Volt,”
EXACTLY!
Many try and hide/redirect what it really is, like “it’s an EREV” or some sh|t like that but it’s design and priciple is a “Series HYBRID”!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:06 pm)
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:06 pm)Industrial Espionage by “Reverse Engineering”!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!!!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:07 pm)50 mpg is a good guess.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:09 pm)Nope…I don’t see it either.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)I don’t know why they would try to evade it. I thought that was the main selling point of the car is its long range. When you go on a 300 mile trip, the 1st 40 miles of electric isn’t nearly as important as the MPG in generator mode.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)” “many of our competition quote grossly exaggerated aero figures that are not repeatable when we test their vehicles in our tunnel,””
ie, they’re all fukin liars and they couldn’t possibly reach such a low cd, only we can.
Oh yeah, it took big balls to come out and say that.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)(click to show comment)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Eestor benefits through their disclosures because Zenn can do equity offerings. And they benefit further from spreading out those disclosures because it gives the stock time to absorb the new shares.
Unlike Eestor, GM doesn’t have a publically traded stock anymore. They could come out tomorrow and announce that they get 1000 mpg in charge sustaining mode, and it wouldn’t benefit them financially at all. At least not until they produce the Volt, at which point they’d have to actually deliver.
Right now, GM is playing a balancing act between PR (and transparency), and prematurely disclosing information to their competitors. I can see why they’re hiding the mpg in charge sustaining mode. If it’s bad, it hurts PR. And if it’s good, it makes Toyota nervous and they move up their plug-in Prius program.
As far as the size of the gas tank–that might depend on mpg in charge sustaining mode. So I can see why they wouldn’t want to disclose that either.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:14 pm)Strangely, I’m going to put myself in with DonC here.
I figure they have probably got it pretty much worked out just fine by now, I’d wager it might be a little on the irritating side still when operating under extreme scenarios…but I doubt that every comes all the way in line with a standard ICE. They have had a lot of time to be ‘persnicky’ with things like this over the past couple months, I’m sure whatever the experience is, it is more than acceptable by now.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:16 pm)GM is not the pioneer of that technique, but they certainly have it mastered…they have a huge facility to break down the competition.
/necessary evil
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:17 pm)Good to see that they are “testing” 2010 Prius. I think everyone here knows who the real competition is. BTW, when the Prius breaks wind it is awesome, shaved ice. GM wind tunnel will certainly have to be re-calibrated after seeing those Prius numbers.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:18 pm)My Corsa C has an air dam so low that I must be vey careful with curbs. I lost it twice in three years and each time the peoplei n the Opel Garage insisted to put it immediately in place (this was disinterested because my cars are under a general all care contract).
They didn’t give me numbers but said the mileage could be significantly severed.
I Imagine I will have to keep my habits with my volt or may ampera …
Regards,
JC NPNS
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:21 pm)“As far as the size of the gas tank…”
You know, I kind of wonder why we even care about it. Even if it were 1 gallon, it would get us to a station to charge, That is the reason it is a “Sereis Hybrid”, to eliminate Range Anxiety.
So if it is more than 1 gallon who give sh|t.
40AER + 50MPG = 90 miles to get you to where you need to go.
Any more miles than that, you are just burning just as much petrol as you would in a Prius.
So if you look at it in an “Energy consumption” aspect, the first 40AER you are a BEV and afterwards you are a Prius (50mpg).
OK don’t flame on me here about the technilogical diff of the Prius anf the Volt. I know them, it was just an example of power consumption and petrol consumtion.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:23 pm)I don’t understand why some posters around here get so irritated when GM doesn’t tell them exactly what they want to hear.
We have probably gotten more early info on this car than any other car ever developed. That alone is remarkable to me.
It is obviously in GM’s best interests to keep some things quiet for a while. Those here that don’t understand that apparently have other agendas.
In fact, I would argue GM has told us more than they should have; and did so too early.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:34 pm)Gonna post an ee store thing…
might get modded…
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:35 pm)EEStor information overload (not a typo) in leaked interview with CEO Dick Weir
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/29/eestor-information-overload-not-a-typo-in-leaked-interview-wit/
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:35 pm)It is in the internet warriors code.
…pretty standard fare
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:39 pm)Keep to the code matey!!!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:39 pm)We can only hope GM designs one that will stand up to a lot of abuse. At that height above the ground (or should I say lack of height?) it is going to get banged around a good bit. Maybe it will “sense” a hit coming and will shrink up out of the way. Just kidding.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:39 pm)I hear the Cd is already like .196 on the Volt (EV1 is .195), and it has a CdA of 3.99…so barely any effect at all. (just kidding)
(I would think a mile would be the top, top, maximum effect on the AER,and that would be under the most ideal/extreme of conditions)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:41 pm)Sounds like good advice. We can either take it or suffer the replacement cost. I think I will take the advice.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:42 pm)And some say the Chinese are bastards for doing such a thing….lol
I’m a “Pirate” dangit!!!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Did you install the air dam yourself? Even if the cost is low, if you have the service department do it, it will cost a good bit more. Hopefully we will alter our driving habits and watch out for those things that “go bump in the road or parking lot”.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Ditto here. I have worked with engineers and if you don’t take their toy away you’ll never get it to market. Their always their worst critic.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Those are true statements Met First. Technically GM doesn’t owe us any information. Name another car company that has been this open and forthright about a top-level secret car project with a revolutionary powertrain? GM has been more upfront than I could have imagined with this car. I mean, if someone on the Volt team hiccups, we know about it. Now, it has to be said that GM also benefits from the exposure they give this car and this project as well. There are certainly risks to being transparent, but hopefully the gamble pays off if the product ultimately meets or exceeds expectations.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:46 pm)Nice to hear from you Jean-Charles. I would take the Ampera over the Volt just because of looks. That is a great looking car. I was hoping to see a Saturn version of it sold in the U.S., but not now looks like.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:48 pm)You may be correct, but his job is designing not engineering. Not much telling what he is working on. All I know is that GM better get busy and come up with some real block-busters as fast as possible and they better have quality written all over them – if they don’t want to find themselves standing in front of another bankruptcy judge in a very short few years. Chapter 7 judge.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:48 pm)GM knows that if they let the public media drive an unfinished, un-perfected generator mode, they’ll never hear the end of the scepticism felt after people drive an un-refined product, and will have to waste lots of money on PR explaining to everyone that the production model’s generator mode is NOW perfected…
Allowing people to drive something that isn’t done would seem rediculous to an engineer.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:50 pm)What car are you talking about. Other than that, a lot of what you said had some truth to it.
Edited: Are you talking about the bottom edge of the headlight where it looks like a stretched out “Z” on the Volt? Maybe in a way you could call that a lightning bolt.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:52 pm)I don’t see it exactly that way, but I do see the contour of the underside of the headlight as a lighting bolt, very clearly, and have always seen it that way.
Oops, hold it, my bong went out. Got a light anyone…?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:53 pm)Statik:
I think Bob and his picture of the Volt (color) are there for you. hehe.
Seriously, he did pay you very respectable comment in the webchat!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:56 pm)It was good of Boniface. It would be great if a few other GM executives would do the same. But they are probably too busy.
Does Statik even wear a tie? If so, pink might just be his color.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:58 pm)Or maybe the next Voltec version will self-lower as the speed increases. This also will improve the aero, not to mention be damn cool.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:00 pm)I agree Mike
Let’s just let GM to their thing…
I’m sure Lyle will be one of the first ones there for the test drive/demonstration.
I just hope we don’t have to wait for the other journalists before Lyle can tell us about it.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:00 pm)Well yes, but…. Every once in a while I’ll be taking longer trips in the Volt, especially day trips, sometimes maybe cross-country. When I do, I don’t want to have to go looking for a gas station every 50 miles or so (and definitely don’t want to stop for a plug-in recharge)!!
When I buy a Volt I want to be able to use it like an ordinary car, i.e., short trips and long trips, without worry. If the Volt had only a one-gallon tank, its advantages over an all-electric (no range extender) vehicle would be quite diminished.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:03 pm)Same for my 95 and 02 Saturns. That’s not to say that there weren’t some awful grinding noises at curbs and stops, but aside from some presumed (invisible) roughness, there were no ill effects for either car.
If this really does become a problem, how hard (expensive) would it be to put some kind of actuator on the air dam to raise and lower it depending on the speed of the vehicle? Might this even increase AER from the current IVer design?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:04 pm)I just tried to place a reply directly under Mike-O-Matic’s SL2 comment, but it ended up where it did instead. This box was originally intended as a second attempt to post up there (now edited out). What gives?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:04 pm)IMHO, the Prius has set the bar extremely high and the Volt will have a difficult time reaching it.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Dude…you’re killin’ me today. lol
I went back and looked for the (what is it) lightning strike…I didn’t see it, at all!
I thought it was just me, being inept.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:09 pm)Oh, they have taken every nut and bolt out of that new Prius i am sure. They have sliced and diced Toyota cars and trucks for years, how do you think they have been improving their quality over the years ?
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+4
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:16 pm)Exactly. One of the main selings points of the EREV, to me, is to make it a dual purpose car. That way I don’t have to rent a car for weekend trips.
Also, I like having a margin of safety so that I can feel comfortable using the entire AER on most days. One gallon of gas isn’t enough for that. At least IMHO.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:16 pm)GM employee test drivers only. Nothing available for release to the “general” public. Soon I am sure Lyle will get a call. Maybe even Statik. And, don’t forget. Next spring Lyle and myself are going to get to keep one for 3 or 4 months. (I hope, I hope, etc, etc)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:17 pm)I gave up on wearing a suit and tie along time ago, but I’ll make exceptions for that one.
Truth be told, I’d probably end up framing it and putting it on my wall beside a shot of my Volt…that is if I can figure out how to get GM to sell me one. (I’m still holding out hope that I can not only get the tie, but also a personalized, derogatory message from Bob on it as well, heeh)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:17 pm)Yeah, that is why “beta versions” are never released to the public for evaluation and feedback. No one has asked for the “secret” final design number for the gas tank, only what the size of the preliminary tank is in the production intent vehicle. GM initially indicated the tank would be about 12 gallons, and would have more than a 600 mile range. Then it was suggested the tank might be cut to 6 gallons and the car would have more than a 300 mile range. An 8 gallon tank with a 400 mile range would be very similar to many ICE only vehicles with 12 to 18 gallon tanks. To not extend the range to a distance typical of other cars would seem odd to me.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:18 pm)Exactly what I was thinking. Makes sense to me.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:21 pm)I agree the size of the tank has little meaning when you are driving around town or very short distances beyond the AEV range. But if you want to go across country or from Dallas to Atlanta, having 5, 6, 7 or 8 gallons in the tank just let you drive until you decide to stop to stretch your legs and/or fill-up. I would not want to stop on a trip every 75 to 100 miles to top off a 2 gallon tank.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:22 pm)I’m going to go with the obvious response on the Cd/CdA question…as in, why doesn’t GM just use the same ‘flexible’ scale as well? However, I’m thinking they really just don’t want to tell us right now, and that is a reasonable excuse in their opinion. However, they should probably just say, “Hey, we aren’t telling you right now.” Boom, case closed…no internet speculation, and no slandering of others.
If other people lying is really the only stumbling block to us getting some Cd information, they could say something like, “We have tested the Volt and it has a Cd thats .01 lower than the Insight in our wind tunnel”…huzzah! Problem solved, and we get a little information. The actual number would be nice, but comparitive figures would be just about as good.
(Specifically, I think most of us would like to know the Cd, CdA in relation to that 2010 Prius they are testing next week)
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:23 pm)I’m sure that john1701a will be glad to loan his Prius to Bob for the week-end, provided it’s still in one piece when he gets it back!
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:24 pm)I think they are sitting on the secret that it’s actually quite a bit more than 50mpg in charge-sustaining mode, to prevent (as Laura M suggested) Toyota from feeling the need to move up it’s plug-in plans.
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:26 pm)For one thing, they’ll really have to scrub it down after the Prius breaks wind.
“As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever broke wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it.”
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:27 pm)I think you are correct. Bob Boniface seems to not find it unpleasant (not his words) so I suppose it must not be a big deal. But like most people we distrust things we are not sure of until we can see, touch and hear it ourselves. Even if Lyle drove the dang thing and said about what Bob did, I would withhold all my judgment until I experienced it first hand. Wouldn’t you?
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:29 pm)Agreed, but cmon, the tank size is whatever it will be. Who give’s a rat’s a$$ if it can go 300 – 700 miles on a full tank. Theoretically they only need to go 300 by fed requirement. By then, you’ll have to eat, piss and take sh|t dude. OR get a friggin ticket for going to damn fast to cover the 300miles in one sitting. Wouldn’t your ass cheeks fall asleep?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:29 pm)Hope that air dam will clear latters laying in the roadway. Here in Dallas I see latters falling off pickups hauling illegals (yea we got about a million of em crawling around D/FW metro area) to their construction worksites about once or twice a week.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:31 pm)The question keeps coming to mind about people’s experience with GM’s two-mode hybrid vehicles. Don’t they shut off at stop lights? When you start up do they make a “disturbing” sound or does it “jerk” the vehicle in some way? I have not heard of any problems. The Volt’s cabin is going to be insulated even more so than any other GM vehicle. Seems to me we would hardly notice the ICE coming on as long as it comes on at a low rpm and then slowly increases to the level they need it to run at given the need at the time. Just color me curious. Any one got some experiences they want to relate?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:34 pm)Actually that’s exactly the definition of a beta version. Something released to the public for evaluation and feedback.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:34 pm)Bob Boniface did say the Volt had the best second only to the EV1 in (and these are the key words) GM history. That is GM history. Not all manufacturers. So, we wait to see. It is going to be good and so what if the Prius beats it on paper by a little bit. Just look at the Prius against the Volt where it is really going to count.
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-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:35 pm)I’m pretty sure we hijacked a old thread ‘real good’ talking about that one recently…autoblog is just a little slow with getting that news out.
(As I recall it clearly sppoked the Unicorn population into believing their horns would soon be harvested)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:36 pm)The days of developing products in a dark room somewhere secret are long gone. Most companies want and seek out feedback during the development process now. The internet has only made this more possible.
The more information they can put out early in the process, the better it will be for them, and the end product will be that much better.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:39 pm)Truth about Cars is really starting to rag on GM for sidestepping the MPG questions:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-152-gm-still-dancing-in-the-dark/
(Of course being overly pessimistic is all they do…I love that site)
————————————-
Here is the article:
Once again, GM has dodged the question on the Volt’s ultimate flat-can fuel economy. From their FastLane Blog, a CoverItLive session with Bob Boniface, I read the following exchange:
[Comment From David]
Hi Bob, Can you give us an approximate number of how many mpg the volt will achieve after the battery runs out?
2:04 Bob Boniface: When battery is depleted you should expect several hundred more miles running on engine generator.
I imagine several people immediately pounded away on their keyboards with “How big is the gas tank?” But that question was never selected and the answer never offered.
The message from a few days’ ago (as blogged on TTAC): ”over 30mpg.” On an earlier CoverItLive session on FastLane, I noted that someone had asked, very specifically, about extended range fuel economy after battery depletion. He was cheerily told that GM expected the Volt to get an EPA score “in the triple digits,” which clearly includes the battery charge. I’ve seen the question asked clearly, elsewhere, and ignored.
When is GM going to stop dancing around and just answer the damned question? GM and the fanboys over on GM-Volt like to talk about how “open” GM has been about the Volt development process. But some of the most important items are buried in layers of obfuscation. As usual.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:40 pm)I say “more power to them”. Hopefully they can learn something useful that they can use. It certainly has been done to them over the years.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:46 pm)The range extender is a big selling feature of the Volt along with the ability to use mostly no gasoline on daily commutes for about 75% of the drivers in the U.S. We just don’t know what the MPG is going to be on generator mode, just yet. GM had mention 50 MPG at one point when they were talking about 40 MPC and another 400 miles on an 8 gallon tank. They withdrew the talk about an 8 gallon tank, but never quite refuted the assumed 50 MPG (400 miles divided by 8 gallons of gas in a full tank). Most of us assume it will be over 40 MPG and hope for anything over 50. Hope lives eternally.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:51 pm)That is right. Just get it done!
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+5
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:54 pm)Nissan’s EV-IT will soon be connecting millions of their plug-in vehicles to a global data center via mobile networks. Yes, these guys get it. Are you listening NEW GM ?
BONUS ALERT: It will be iPhone ready !!
Using Nissan’s planned iPhone application, drivers will be able to remotely monitor and control their vehicle’s battery charging, air conditioning and heating.
Does the mighty Volt have anything like this ? Ummm…let me think…NO!
Time for an OnStar upgrade…heeehee
Get ready for the future…it begins August 2nd…unleashing Car 2.0
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:57 pm)You must have swallowed your chop sticks. Keep on hoping. Both vehicles will be great ones to own, but I will make mine a Volt. I have already turned down the chance to purchase a Prius in 2007 and 2008. Just wasn’t satisfied with it being from Toyota. Gave me the creeps to think I might actually agree to purchase a Toyota vehicle just because it was a good high mileage hybrid. After thinking it over several days (both times) I told the Toyota dealer I was just not interested. But, the Prius is a good car – just not for me personally. Although I might purchase one for my wife if GM doesn’t come out with something to satisfy her.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:00 pm)No truer words have been spoken on this site. You know how some people are. You tell them a little and they expect you to let slip all the secrets you have so they can hash them around. You can never please all the people all the time (well you can’t please all the people any time). GM has done a remarkable job keeping us informed. I have to give them credit where credit is due.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:02 pm)Like the French car that used to do that. Don’t know if it still does or not.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:04 pm)Agreed.
I could give two sh!ts about the Cd. In fact if it has to look like a prius…I don’t want it (no offense).
Now maybe that’s not the way to be, but I’ll bet my Volt waiting list number that there are many more consumers out there that feel the same way.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:04 pm)I have not experienced any problem as long as I click on the correct “reply” tag. Maybe you just thought you were clicking on his reply tag.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:05 pm)It doesn’t need to be perfect, just half way work, at a good price. We don’t need a Cadillac Electroganza.
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-2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:05 pm)I would like to see this list of so-called GM Best Practices. Has it been approved by Dave ? (Letterman that is).
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+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:06 pm)Need to be a troll? There’s an app for that.
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:06 pm)Just stick it up against that perceived lightning bolt. That should do it. If not you probably are too far gone to notice it didn’t light.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:10 pm)Personally, I don’t see why Maximum Bob couldn’t accommodate you on both points. How about it Bob? You are still reading this site, aren’t you? If anyone deserves a derogatory message from Bob Lutz, its Statik. I couldn’t think of a better thing Bob could do for him. Except include the pink tie in the package.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:12 pm)Still looking for the secret ingredient
of prius and hybrids
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:15 pm)…just half way work…
Buddy Ro the Volt is the car for you.
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:15 pm)How do you think Toyota climbed up from making “beer can” cars and trucks to making world class vehicles? They all do it. The Japanese invented the practice. And perfected it also.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:16 pm)It would be really “sweet” if that were true. Let’s hope.
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-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:19 pm)Everybody is a genius, where were all these “engineers” when GM was designing it?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:20 pm)It does get weird though, if you start to reply, then click the “cancel” link.
Like, getting thrown the the bottom of the whole thread and the post text winding up in that posting form. This happens in FireFox 3… don’t know if it happens in IE7 or IE8.
Probably just your garden-variety coding boo-boo.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:23 pm)The Volt needs an iPhone interface to their PCM. Hopefully some apple/car geeks can create a hack for this. It shouldn’t be too difficult.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:23 pm)Even when the gen’l public gets a go, they may be subject to a nondisclosure agreement for a while… so who knows??!?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:24 pm)He did sidestep the question of gas mileage while in range-extending mode, though. Someone asked him specifically about MPG while in range-extending mode, and his reply what that the car would travel several hundred miles after exhausting battery power.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:27 pm)With software releases, you are correct. Not that sure about autos. GM is breaking a lot of new ground with the Volt and the public being informed about its progress.
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:28 pm)You people are all confused, the Volt is an electric vehicle first.. 0 gas needed.. wave as you drive past the lines of Prious owners at the gas station fighting over the last drops of gas.
That is the real reason the recent test drives were with the genset disabled.. they wanted to concentrate the publicity on the electric experience only.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:29 pm)Latters? Oh, you mean “ladders”. I would not want to run over a ladder even with my larger car. A truck, maybe.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:32 pm)I was hoping that someone would ask him why the Volt won’t have a full “belly pan” like the Cadillac Converj concept. I asked him 3 or 4 questions, but didn’t get a reply.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:33 pm)You got that right.
With 1.6 billion iPhone application downloads and counting somebody must want one.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:33 pm)Looks kinda like GM doesn’t want to answer the question, doesn’t it? I can’t say I blame them. Mostly because of what LauraM said earlier. It would give Toyota an edge and time to tweak the Prius some more. Right now Toyota probably thinks they are in “high cotton”. No use shaking their belief, I say. Not until much later in the process.
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:34 pm)I care about the size of the gas tank just about as much as i care about the ground clearance of the air dam, LOL. Non-issues, IMHO.
LJGTVWOTR!! Don’t Sweat The Little Stuff (DSTLS)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:36 pm)Maybe so. Maybe so. We don’t know just what interface GM will provide. Nissan is doing a big PR to try to steal some “Green” creditability. They need it, just like GM. We will just have to wait and see how things work out both companies.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:37 pm)Geez, I hope so but I’m not betting on it. After all, once the battery charge is used up and the Volt in running in generator-range mode, it will be lugging around the 375 lb. battery, which will be so much dead weight. That’s essentially two adult passengers. It will have to factor in on MPG.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:38 pm)Right.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:38 pm)If exhiliration was a disease….TTAC would be the antidote.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:39 pm)To me it’s the number 1 issue I need to know about the car. It’s an extended range vehicle, we need to know the mileage in extended range.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:40 pm)Somebody done got a bad case of Tunnel Vision.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:44 pm)And Toyota didn’t slice and dice GM’s cars? Who do you think invented the electric starter? The catalytic converter? And basically most of the innovations anywhere from 1920-1965?
And GM always knew how to improve their quality. It’s called spending more money per car. Something they didn’t have the luxury of with their union contracts, and the relative price of the dollar.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:45 pm)I meant Ladders, you know those steppy things that those little jumpin beans use to get on our roofs.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:45 pm)Actually, I doubt if the Japanese invented it, even though they are famous for being good at it. I’m thinking that Throg the caveman probably “reverse engineered” his neighbor Grog’s stone spear point when he saw how well it killed a Woolly Mammoth or a Mastodon, LOL.
I’ll bet that nasaman could tell us some stories about who “reverse engineered” the German V-2s after WWII.
Just human nature at work.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:45 pm)I think the typical consumer, and even the enthusiast won’t necessarily say “hybrid” when they see the Volt as much as they will say “$39,995!!!?”.
With gas being cheap, the Volt will fail much like the EV1 unless the price can be brought down to sensible levels. So gas needs to go up, or price needs to go down.
ATTN GM: Bring the price down. You can shave a bit off the price now that the majority of the R&D expenses have been covered by John Q Public since you went Chapter 11.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:47 pm)quick, patent that name!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:49 pm)As much as the EEstor “leaked interview” is entertaining reading, I cannot get my brain around the fact that, on the one hand, they are not busy producing a prototype ESU but a “pre-production” ESU and, in fact, are busy as bees getting the production line up and running, but on the other hand, they have yet to supply Zenn or anyone else with a custom-made, prototype ESU to tool around with to see how it compares with a bank of lithium ion battery cells. If this thing is so damn well protected by patents, what’s it gonna hurt?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:49 pm)I like these two comments:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
thalter :
July 29th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Again, people who focus on the MPG of a single mode of operation miss the point of this car.
That is like taking your car as asking what the MPG is idling at a stop light, or why you get better mileage going downhill than up.
psarhjinian :
July 29th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
“Again, people who focus on the MPG of a single mode of operation miss the point of this car.”
I kind of agree. I think it’s an interesting question, and one worth knowing the answer to if you’re going to buy the car, but it’s not really all that important…
…kind of like asking about the skidpad grip of a Corolla, or the cargo carrying limits of a Corvette.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:51 pm)GM isn’t copying the Prius and selling it in their home market in clear violation of Toyota’s patents. That’s a huge difference.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:56 pm)Actually, we didn’t have to reverse-engineer rockets after WWII. Instead we just brought all those original engineers to Alabama to “continue” V2 and other rocket development. BTW those same German engineers created the Space Shuttle and its Booster Rockets as well as Reagan’s Star Wars defense missile technology that is currently being used to defend Israel and the U.S. from BM attacks.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:05 pm)10 years from now they will still be working on providing a pre-production prototype.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:09 pm)Looking at it from their point of view, I can’t blame them either for not ’spilling the beans’, but I really can’t take that step further and see how Toyota would be worried, or make any alterations to the Prius because of it.
I seriously doubt the Volt as it stands now is any serious threat to the CdA that the Prius puts out…I mean, most of us have seen both of them in person, and well…you can just tell by looking at them.
Even if somehow the Volt was marginally better, I kinda doubt that would prop them (Toyota) to do a tear down/rebuild of a 8 week old platform just to eek out a slightly better number before the Volt comes out in limited production late next year (allegedly). I think if GM claimed a lower number, they would just /shrug…maybe mutter someing about electric propulsion, lol.
With production to the public coming in 488 days (according to Lyle’s clock), that really doesn’t leave enough time for anyone to do anything…and I think very few customers care/make their car purchasing decisions based on the Cd/CdA, at least not enough for another automaker to build/adjust a whole platform just to say it was ’slipperier that the Volt’
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:09 pm)As long as that gas tank can get you back home (i.e. 20 miles) you shouldn’t care. The idea here is to use ELECTRICITY. And you know that once you venture beyond your 20 mile bubble the Volt will be wasting gasoline to get your sorry butt back to the house for some more hospitable fuel in the form of ELECTRONS.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:13 pm)Nobody does that. They copy only pieces of it and “Bastardize” it for their own thing and call it “Mine!”.
I’ve been in mfgr for a good 10yrs and, yes that is what happens. Not cloning the product but getting the knowledge of it’s function/functions. We did it in two of the really big companies that shall not be named.
I R A Pirate!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:14 pm)None taken. I understand exactly how you feel. You want a car that looks like a car you want to drive and have parked in your driveway or garage. You don’t want a bubble car or one that looks like a stretched out lemon. The Volt is on the edge of being too Prius-like without being too far over the edge. I have seen some concept cars that were designed as new “modern” looking cars that did actually look good. But not many. I want a sleek car with 4 doors, a roomy trunk and room to seat 4 full sized adults or 2 adults and 3 children. The Volt meets most of these requirements except for the 2 adults and 3 children. Have to wait for the Orlando Voltec powered small SUV in about 2012.
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-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:19 pm)Bobby Boniduceface has got to be yanking my crank. Like GM has never grossly exaggerated its aero specs. Oh pulleeeeez. Give it to me hard. That hurt Bobby.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:21 pm)It was that Iced tea I got at Long Island……
P
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:25 pm)Man, here in CA, it’s the ripped off Diesl Truck “Re-treads” on the freeway. Their all over the friggin place.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:31 pm)gaters!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:36 pm)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS#Model_history
Citroen DS
WAY ahead of it’s time!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:37 pm)Does the same in IE8.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:40 pm)Ka-CHING! Ka-CHING! Ka-CHING!!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:40 pm)If it’s like the one on my Malibu it’s a couple small bolts and 5 minutes to remove.
I DID have the car on jackstands, it’s too low when on the wheels.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:43 pm)They were avoiding employment at GM because of the layoffs an BK….GENIUS!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:44 pm)THAT would be priceless!
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:45 pm)Troll
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:46 pm)Is that why “Unni” hasn’t been around?
lol…
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:47 pm)I saw GM old stock jump when Christmas in July post came on line .
Just a stupid idea but if you sold two high mileage Volt mules on E-Bay . How much do you think they would bring ?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:50 pm)LOL… you crack me up Captain!
You are absolutely right as well!
But jeez you are funny while you do it!
(Trying to get the sleeping butt cheeks vision out of my head…)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:50 pm)I’ve often wondered if you could actually fuel a vintage steam traction engine off those retreads and go from coast-to-coast (not very fast).
Retreads on the side of the Interstate are not just a California phenomenon, Cap’n.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:51 pm)And to climb over our border fences. I knew what you meant. I was just picking at you.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:52 pm)“I think they are sitting on the secret that it’s actually quite a bit more than 50mpg in charge-sustaining mode”
Technically they can adjust DC boost to whatever they want. They can make 80mpg if they really want. My guess is they are testing to find the best average setting/results. If it’s above 50MPG then they will tune down to 50MPG if it is a few below 50, then they will tune the DC boost (from batt pack) up to achieve 50mpg. When software controlls sh|t like this, it allows for much more flexibility.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:54 pm)Will a better CD on the Volt than the Prius worry Toyota? Nah.
Will better gas-only mpg prompt them to step up their plans? It could happen, IMO.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:56 pm)My experience reveals it is a complete non-issue, just a tactic to change focus. Sorry to be blunt. But the transistion only takes 1 second and it is the rest of the drive following that we still aren’t told anything about.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:59 pm)I really think this is the case as well.
Running the genset at optimised speeds will make it very efficent.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Maybe not in the US. But they do it in China all the time. They used to do it in India too, but I think they stopped now that India has its own biotech companies.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Jackson says “I think they are sitting on the secret that it’s actually quite a bit more than 50mpg in charge-sustaining mode”
———————————————————-
I just said 50 mpg because this is what the web site says the computer simulation predicts. Generally computer projections are, if anything, a bit optimistic but usually reasonably accurate. Assuming that the engine used in the simulation is the one actually used in the car, with GM’s experience my guess is that the simulation is close, though in actual practice it could be more or less.
In some ways once the Volt is in charge sustaining mode both are PHEVs, so even with different designs it wouldn’t surprise me if the results were similar. Eventually we’ll find out.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:12 pm)N Riley said:
“GM employee test drivers only. Nothing available for release to the “general” public. Soon I am sure Lyle will get a call. Maybe even Statik. And, don’t forget. Next spring Lyle and myself are going to get to keep one for 3 or 4 months. (I hope, I hope, etc, etc)”
——-
I’m getting a call? Woo-wee, time for you to take some time off Neal. (=
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:16 pm)uh huhhhh….
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:17 pm)Strictly speaking, I don’t think that “charge-sustaining mode” can take from the battery pack much more than regeneration can replace without damaging the battery. This is another factor to juggle (no doubt they’re more worried about pack longevity than a point or two of mpg).
My point on charge-sustaining mode being better than most people think is based on a couple of things:
1) If the generator is powering the motor from one of it’s fixed rpms, only the difference between load and capacity comes from the battery (or goes to the battery), less electrical losses.
2) The difference between having to supply every surge of power under every possible condition, and selecting from a series of most-efficiently-tuned rpms is likely to be much more significant than the typical hybrid system.
3) Don’t forget regeneration. “Lugging a heavy battery” during charge-sustaining mode effects acceleration, but regeneration means getting a fair amount of that energy back.
This combination in a small, aerodynamic car has the potential to be counter-intuitively large.
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-2
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:22 pm)I want one, but not at 40 grand!!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:26 pm)10 years from now, I expect that prototype will be on a museum shelf of false-dawn/scam technologies; somewhere between Joseph Newman’s energy machine and the original cold-fusion experiment.
I wouldn’t mind being proven wrong, but it’s going to take something significantly beyond anything we’ve heard from either Zenn or EEStor so far.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:26 pm)Van,
You say that like it’s a bad thing? (lol). I think they have to stop short of giving Toyota and Honda personal tours.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:28 pm)WATCH OUT _ This can’t be the real Statik. Either that, or the pink tie is too tight (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:28 pm)You must watch Bill O’Reilly on Fox. Pithy and an Opiner. Quite a combination.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:28 pm)Very true points Sparks/Laura. If it is going to be a EREV, I think most people will be assuming it can do everything, and go as far as a regular ICE…rightly or wrongly.
I think the minimum the Volt can get away with is a 6 gallon tank, which is probably what it was intended to get when they axed it down… considering how it was a 12 gallon double bladder system originally.
People expect the Volt (as a EREV) to operate within the same parameters of a standard car…and that is 350ish miles. Only having 1 gallon means stopping every 40-50 miles after your electric juice runs out…or if you didn’t plug it in the night before. The exceptionally ‘long trip’ metric seems to be one of the main cornerstones of justification for the existence of the EREV platform.
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Sidenote: If they can’t hit the 50 MPG claim, and end up with something more like 40 MPG, then they likely have to look at 8 or 9 gallons.
Which is likely why wouldn’t hear what the size of the tank is. Everyone knows the mantra of ‘over 300 miles of total range’ that GM throws around…and if GM says anything other than 6 gallons, everyone will immediately jump on the math.
ie) 8 gallon tank translates to 35ish MPG
(320ish miles – 40 AER = 280 on gas / 8 gallons = 35 MPG)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:29 pm)I’d give Lyle SOME credit, so I’d trust his opinion until I had good reason to doubt it.
JMO,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:31 pm)Assuming that they disassemble a Volt to check it out, I’d buy the PARTS.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:31 pm)To me Boniface’s comment about the variance between claimed and tested Cds was an eye opener, and leads me to think GM should not disclose the Cd. For them it will be tails I lose heads you win. Assuming that Boniface is being truthful, and I think he is, then what we have is creative specing. Happens all the time in all kinds of industries.
The problem is that if customers start reducing performance to a number, here it would be aerodynamic performance reduced to Cd, then if you release an accurate Cd and your competitors release an “creatively enhanced” Cd then everyone says your design sucks and you’re a moron. In this regard, I’ve seen people criticizing GM and the Volt based on a guesstimate of its Cd. In fact, Statik has used an off-hand remark by Lutz about the Cd to argue the superior range of “The Vehicle We Will Not Name”.
IMHO this means that GM should not release its Cd number. It has nothing to gain and a lot to lose. When the car is released it will go X miles (or X miles on Y watts) based on the EPA drive cycles. Since this number can’t easily be gamed it’s the number an honest manufacturer will want to use, despite the fact that these range numbers might prove disappointing in real world driving situations.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:31 pm)Guys… He said several hundred miles.
No need to go down a rat hole on this one.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:34 pm)Indeed Captain, I don’t see any real reason why you need greater than 300 miles range for a petrol engine.
Don’t get me wrong, sometimes it is nice/convenient, like if you want to just drive the I-90 for fun, and you often get 75+ miles between gas stations, so you have to pull over with still a third of the tank unused…but it is rarely ‘that’ big a inconvience.
/suck it up lazy people with unusual driving stamina
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:35 pm)We also have the occasional pickup truck bed liner. Bolt it in?? Why?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:37 pm)Belly pans create at least as many issues as they solve.
Cooling and access for maintenance are two big problems there.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:37 pm)No name’s got at least eleven alter egos, now! (currently showing 10+ votes).
Maybe Lyle (or a community volunteer) will need to institute a more rigorous procedure for membership (real email address to which a coded link is sent, etc).
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:39 pm)Capt,
What’s gained by decreasing the mpg to 50? Just like I think the release AER will be more than 40, I believe that the MPG will exceed 50. Then again, I believed that the release date would be Independence day and if ask wouldn’t believe GM would launch a competing site. Go figure.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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