We just heard from Volt lead designer Bob Boniface on a webchat and he was able to shed some light on issues related to the design of the Volt among other things. Some key information is as follows:
Ports
He confirmed the Volt will have two ports, one for gas and for for charging each on opposite sides of the vehicle. The charge port is in the front quarter, driver’s side.
Change from Concept to Production Form
The never ending questions of why the car changed from concept to production continued. Bob explained that the proportions between the two are drastically different because “the concept powertrain layout was completely different and pushed the front wheels far forward giving us the long hood we all loved.” This though produced a Chevy Tahoe-sized wheelbase of 116″ which as he put it “made drivability and maneuverability unmarketable.”
Coefficient of Drag
Boniface still wouldn’t publicly confirm the Volt’s CD, stating that “many of our competition quote grossly exaggerated aero figures that are not repeatable when we test their vehicles in our tunnel,” in particular to a reference about the Tesla Model S having a CD of 0.27.
“If I quote an actual GM derived tunnel figure,” he said, “it may not look impressive to you when, in fact, it is superior to most if not all of our competition.”
Finally he assures us “The Volt aero performance is second only to the EV1 in GM history.”
He also noted GM will test the 2010 Prius’ aerodynamics next week and says “I expect the Volt to stand up to the competition.”
Colors
He said “We will have a full range of colors,” but “you will have to wait until we get closer to launch to find out all colors.” Boniface also reported there will be more than one trim level and that GM may take customer feedback in determining color options.
Low Font End
It was noticed in the IVer video that the front end of the Volt appears precariously low to the ground, especially the air intake port.
Boniface explains “we took the Volt ride height down as low as possible without violating GM best practices.”
“The piece to which you are referring is a flexible airdam that sits fairly low to the ground (same height as Corvette airdam),” he writes. “This piece is a big aero enabler and should not be damaged by a hit to a curb.”
Future Voltec Vehicles
Boniface excites us with prospects for the future now that Volt design work is done. His team is “working on some other (secret) projects now,” he says.
Charge Sustaining Mode
Boniface decided to take a non-design question about why GM hasn’t allowed anyone outside the company to experience driving the Volt while in generator mode. He said “I have driven the mule in charge sustaining mode and, frankly, I don’t know what all the fuss is about.”
“It was remarkably smooth and quiet with a nearly seamless transition,” he said. “I think the team wants it to be perfect before letting others drive it.”
To make sure he was perfectly clear, Bob actually made a cameo appearance in our GM-Volt.com comments section, which by the way to my knowledge is the first time any GM executive has done so in the site’s history. He said:
This entry was posted on Wednesday, July 29th, 2009 at 10:00 am and is filed under Design, Voltec. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.When I said that I did not understand what all the fuss was about, I was referring to the internal fuss. Of course I understand that this is a critical part of the EREV experience and people are eager to understand this part of the puzzle. The point was that the transition is so good that I do not know why we do not allow people to experience it.
+4
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:02 am)Another great report, Lyle. What is in store for us in the next chat session? Maybe we can get some real update information on someone’s driving experience with the Volt in range extending mode. A good chat about that would go a long way to settle some issues.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:09 am)From the article:
Low Font End
It was noticed in the IVer video that the front end of the Volt appears precariously low to the ground, especially the air intake port.
Boniface explains “we took the Volt ride height down as low as possible without violating GM best practices.”
“The piece to which you are referring is a flexible airdam that sits fairly low to the ground (same height as Corvette airdam),” he writes. “This piece is a big aero enabler and should not be damaged by a hit to a curb.”
——————————————–
I asked this question of Bob Boniface. One that was answered of the many I asked.
Somehow I just don’t believe the statement about it should not be damaged. How many times have any of you seen cars with the lower air dam seriously damaged and “hanging” loose looking? Many times, I am sure. I suppose time will tell, won’t it?
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:13 am)I am assuming the secret project he is working on is the new small car GM is to build in the U.S. Other than that, I don’ t have a clue.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:13 am)Thanks Lyle!
Beautiful car.
Anyone else think the space between the headlight and the marker light below it forms a lightning bolt? If it was intentional, it’s the most understated thing I’ve ever noticed from GM… The same company that gave us design language like ‘plastic underbody cladding’, horizontal-bar-though-grille, and a dictionary’s worth of typographically-illfitting acronyms and buzzwords on the back end of the car.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:17 am)I am glad Bob Boniface made a cameo appearance on the site yesterday to further explain his chat session statement about driving in charge sustaining mode (what we refer to a range extending mode). His appearance and explanation was greatly appreciated and welcome. I wish him all the luck in his secret project and I hope it will be fruitful and successful. Thanks again, Bob for your answers to our questions (when you were able to answer them directly without going beyond what GM allows).
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:22 am)finally putting to rest the long running suspicions on the charge sustaining mode.
One down, several more to go
-9
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:30 am)I don’t know what all the fuss is about.
__________________________
It wrecks the promise of transparency.
Why hide information about the very aspect that makes Volt unique?
Of course, the moment someone does get to experience it, they’ll immediately see what the MPG gauge indicates.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:39 am)I read once where a fan dance is a series of calculated exposures. There is no reason not to disclosure the size of the gas tank in the existing IVERS, or let someone independent of GM drive the Volt from “full charge” (85% of charge) for 100 miles so the before and after performance could be compared. GM is not being transparent, they are timing the disclosures to sustain market interest, IMHO.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:43 am)I took his “secret projects” comment to mean more Voltec models, but of course he wasn’t specific, and maybe that is sub-conscious wishful thinking on my behalf too. I guess we can only hope?
+4
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:46 am)Maybe so, but I am sure they are trying not to give anything away to the competition. There is 17 months until the end of 2010. Plenty of time for the competition to use Volt information to create a response or put out negative comments to confuse the consumer. I think GM is correct doing it this way. Although, I don’t see why not release the size of the gas tank unless they have not yet determined the final size. If so, why not just say so.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:48 am)Agreed. That was an up-standing and friendly thing to do to provide clarification to the comment. Nice to have the GM guys drop in once and awhile like that, and hope it happens more often. Who knows, maybe Statik will get that pink tie sooner than he thinks?
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:48 am)I think you’re right.
And I really can’t blame them.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:50 am)I particularly liked his bit about Coefficient of Drag. Of course we’ve only got his word to go by but CD isn’t something you’d get independently verified. I’ve wondered why we didn’t have a real number, but it seems like he’s saying the other guys lie and we’d rather not tell you anything than tell you a lie. I can live with that for now, but once the design is final I’d be curious to see a head to head comparison between the volt, EV1, and prius all using the same test at the same location.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:52 am)On my ’92 and ’97 Saturn SL2s, the front air dam was fairly low. It didn’t exactly drag on the ground when exiting the driveway, or leaving a parking lot onto the street. But it was low, and I did introduce each car’s air dam to a few parking-lot stops, and a curb or two (… or twenty
.
The thing is, that air dam was not “hard mounted”, but rather, it was clipped on in such a way that it had some room to flex. IIRC it even had a couple of springs attached to keep it pointed downward, but so that it could “give way” easily if contacted by a solid object.
Hopefully they can use (or even improve on) this concept for the Volt’s necessarily-low air dam.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:56 am)I’ll grant you this, it’s definitely a fine line to walk.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:59 am)I have owned a Pontiac Solstice since they first arrived. (car #51) It is the lowest car GM has ever sold, even lower than the Corvette. It has a little plastic air dam underneath, and I can tell you that now coming up on my forth year of ownership, that air dam is still hanging in there just fine. However, if you care about your car, you learn quickly to alter your driving habits. Enter and exit driveways slow and at an angle preferably. Slow way down to a crawl for speed bumps, and you will learn quickly not to pull up to the curb or wheel stopper when parking.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:59 am)JMO, but while a drag coefficient could be used to claim bragging rights, real-world AER and overall performance is going to trump all that. I wouldn’t care if it was a total brick aerodynamically, if I got 47 MPC at 65 MPH.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:10 am)I smacked my G6′s front air dam on the incline into my driveway probably about a couple dozen times, they are fairly robust…but I did eventually manage to obliterate it/cut it in half.
It (the air dam) is pretty flexible…but they can still very easily be severed if speed is applied to the collision (which is what happened to me when I busted mine, I was probably going 15 MPH)
Sidenote: I assume what we are looking at on the Volt, and on my G6 are basically the same thing. I probably have 3 inches more clearance on the G6.
Volt air dam:
http://www.motorauthority.com/content/thumbs/f/i/first_pre_production_chevrolet_volt_prototype_001-0625-950×650.jpg
Side, side note: I just got rid of it (G6) when I picked up the SRX, GM doesn’t take notice at all if it is missing, lol.
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:14 am)So what is the MPG in generator mode?
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:19 am)@Van
“they are timing the disclosures to sustain market interest, IMHO.”
lol, no offense but that sounds like “Hype Maintenance” well performed with academy awards to EEStor.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:26 am)“we took the Volt ride height down as low as possible without violating GM best practices.”
Aw man, my 97 Saturn hit’s that fron thingy all the friggin time. Whateva dude. Ditto for my co-worker who has a Vette. Don’t recall the year though. This is just gonna be the fact of life and ownership.
As for the CD, what’s the big secret? It’s not like GM is gonna change the aerodynamics just to get better values. If GM is so damn confident of how they designed / engineerd the Volt, then really why hide it? So the Model S thang has a low “Stated” CD, big friggin whop. And so what if they see what the Volt get’s and they redesign for even a lower CD? Big friggin whop. It’s not a race for the best CD value, just get the product out…..
Sheeeeesh….
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:27 am)To be true : I started getting bored on these chats .No real thing comes out.
Look at the chat answers ( I dont need to say its great because i am not GM PR )
:03
[Comment From David]
Hi Bob, Can you give us an approximate number of how many mpg the volt will achieve after the battery runs out?
2:04
Bob Boniface: When battery is depleted you should expect several hundred more miles running on engine generator.
–Question is on MPG and answer is bla bla
2:24
[Comment From Lyle Dennis, GM-Volt.com]
Hi Bob – you mentioned that car was “meeting aerodynamic performance,” what exactly does that mean, and are you able to tell us the actual CD at this point in time? Tesla mentioned its yet to be built mode S has a CD of 0.27
2:28
Bob Boniface: Hi Lyle. People may think we are skirting the aero issue by not quoting our tunnel figures. We are not. The fact of the matter is that many of our competition quote grossly exaggerated aero figures that are not repeatable when we test their vehicles in our tunnel. If I quote an actual GM derived tunnel figure, it may not look impressive to you when, in fact, it is superior to most if not all of our competition. It is very much like the horsepower race back in the 60s. The Volt aero performance is second only to the EV1 in GM history.
– Again no numbers or worse numbers or Gm machine calibration error. Or they dont have data to publish on toyota’s claims are false ( do you think they dont release data if they find its false ? they compare each car in advertisement to say GM cars are better )
2:28
[Comment From Paul]
Can you compare and contrast the Volt styling and aerodynamics against the 2010 Prius?
2:29
Bob Boniface: We plan to test the 2010 Prius this week and I expect the Volt to stand up to the competition.
Again : not done or fear to say ours is inferior. Please note : Only stand up to competition and not stand above competition.
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:29 am)“Anyone else think the space between the headlight and the marker light below it forms a lightning bolt?”
Huh?
Whatcha smokin man? I don’t see it…
Whatever it is man you need to puff puff GIVE! so we can all see it!
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:31 am)GM is not being transparent, they are timing the disclosures to sustain market interest, IMHO.
_________________________________________
What market interest? No one cares except at sites like this. GM is being so transparent that every one not on the “fringe” as Tag said, has moved on to the next next thing, 16 months before the car is even introduced. All advertising has been low key to non existent.
We should probably not take every thing GM does as a personal affront. Volts will eventually be available with full documentation and test drives even.
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:33 am)Just a wild guess, but I’m thinking the complete absence of the air dam would probably reduce AER by a mile (at the very most). Do you think that’s a reasonable guess, Statik?
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:35 am)I didn’t think about it in those terms but it makes sense. There is no underwriters labs crew checking for BS or even methodology differences that could give one car maker an advantage that doesn’t exist independent of their unverified tests.
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:43 am)“We plan to test the 2010 Prius this week and I expect the Volt to stand up to the competition.”
Soooo…….
Did they go out and buy the Prius or did they rent one or did they call Toy and ask for one to “Test”?
Just curious.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:44 am)I have a 2000 Corvette with one of these air dams. It’s very pliable and the only thing I’ve seen is that it can get scratched up. Of course, if you hit anything with enough force it will break, The beauty of this piece is that it’s very easy to replace and is extremely cheap. I had to buy one when I bought my Vette and it was about $15. I’ve had the same one on since (I bought it about 6 years ago) then and have no issues at all. One more thing – I’ve lowered my Vette about 2 inches so I’m actually lower than the standard Vette and again, have had no issues.
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:50 am)“Volts will eventually be available with full documentation and test drives even.”
Dude, the IV’rs have already been on the road. Where’s their test data?
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:53 am)The game being playing is how Volt is portrayed.
ELECTRIC has been the theme for many enthusiasts and GM itself. They treat usage of the engine as a rare need, emphasizing the ideal of no gas at all rather than a dramatic reduction.
HYBRID is how the typical consumer sees Volt, an expensive way to dramatically reduce gas consumption.
Some of us would like an affordable option, where the battery-pack is much smaller. But that is totally dependent on the MPG in generator mode.
Each time the question is evaded, the belief that it could actually be competitive that way fades.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:55 am)Every manufacturer buys one or more cars released by every competitor and then takes them apart piece by piece to see what they can learn.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:58 am)Great article. But can execs stop saying things like “made drivability and maneuverability unmarketable”, and use normal English? Like “the concept design would’ve handled like a 1983 Malibu wagon”?
+4
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:03 pm)The one obvious point that everyone seems to be missing is that Bonifice’s answer suggests the transition from EV mode to ICE mode is going to be awesome. I say this because he thinks it’s fine as it is. If the engineers didn’t think they could make it much better — if they thought it was close to being as good as they could get it — they’d demonstrate it. it wouldn’t be a big deal. The fact that they want the time to make it better suggests to me that they think there they can improve it considerably.
So if Bonifice thinks it’s good, and the engineers think it can be significantly improved, that’s good news.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:04 pm)“HYBRID is how the typical consumer sees Volt,”
EXACTLY!
Many try and hide/redirect what it really is, like “it’s an EREV” or some sh|t like that but it’s design and priciple is a “Series HYBRID”!
-5
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:06 pm)[...] http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/29/chevy-volt-chief-designers-update/This though produced a Chevy Tahoe-sized wheelbase of 116″ which as he put it “made drivability and maneuverability unmarketable.” Coefficient of Drag Boniface still wouldn’t publicly confirm the Volt’s CD, stating that “many of our … [...]
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:06 pm)Industrial Espionage by “Reverse Engineering”!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!!!
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:07 pm)50 mpg is a good guess.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:09 pm)Nope…I don’t see it either.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)I don’t know why they would try to evade it. I thought that was the main selling point of the car is its long range. When you go on a 300 mile trip, the 1st 40 miles of electric isn’t nearly as important as the MPG in generator mode.
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)” “many of our competition quote grossly exaggerated aero figures that are not repeatable when we test their vehicles in our tunnel,””
ie, they’re all fukin liars and they couldn’t possibly reach such a low cd, only we can.
Oh yeah, it took big balls to come out and say that.
-13
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)(click to show comment)
+5
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Eestor benefits through their disclosures because Zenn can do equity offerings. And they benefit further from spreading out those disclosures because it gives the stock time to absorb the new shares.
Unlike Eestor, GM doesn’t have a publically traded stock anymore. They could come out tomorrow and announce that they get 1000 mpg in charge sustaining mode, and it wouldn’t benefit them financially at all. At least not until they produce the Volt, at which point they’d have to actually deliver.
Right now, GM is playing a balancing act between PR (and transparency), and prematurely disclosing information to their competitors. I can see why they’re hiding the mpg in charge sustaining mode. If it’s bad, it hurts PR. And if it’s good, it makes Toyota nervous and they move up their plug-in Prius program.
As far as the size of the gas tank–that might depend on mpg in charge sustaining mode. So I can see why they wouldn’t want to disclose that either.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:14 pm)Strangely, I’m going to put myself in with DonC here.
I figure they have probably got it pretty much worked out just fine by now, I’d wager it might be a little on the irritating side still when operating under extreme scenarios…but I doubt that every comes all the way in line with a standard ICE. They have had a lot of time to be ‘persnicky’ with things like this over the past couple months, I’m sure whatever the experience is, it is more than acceptable by now.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:16 pm)GM is not the pioneer of that technique, but they certainly have it mastered…they have a huge facility to break down the competition.
/necessary evil
-2
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:17 pm)Good to see that they are “testing” 2010 Prius. I think everyone here knows who the real competition is. BTW, when the Prius breaks wind it is awesome, shaved ice. GM wind tunnel will certainly have to be re-calibrated after seeing those Prius numbers.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:18 pm)My Corsa C has an air dam so low that I must be vey careful with curbs. I lost it twice in three years and each time the peoplei n the Opel Garage insisted to put it immediately in place (this was disinterested because my cars are under a general all care contract).
They didn’t give me numbers but said the mileage could be significantly severed.
I Imagine I will have to keep my habits with my volt or may ampera …
Regards,
JC NPNS
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:21 pm)“As far as the size of the gas tank…”
You know, I kind of wonder why we even care about it. Even if it were 1 gallon, it would get us to a station to charge, That is the reason it is a “Sereis Hybrid”, to eliminate Range Anxiety.
So if it is more than 1 gallon who give sh|t.
40AER + 50MPG = 90 miles to get you to where you need to go.
Any more miles than that, you are just burning just as much petrol as you would in a Prius.
So if you look at it in an “Energy consumption” aspect, the first 40AER you are a BEV and afterwards you are a Prius (50mpg).
OK don’t flame on me here about the technilogical diff of the Prius anf the Volt. I know them, it was just an example of power consumption and petrol consumtion.
+6
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:23 pm)I don’t understand why some posters around here get so irritated when GM doesn’t tell them exactly what they want to hear.
We have probably gotten more early info on this car than any other car ever developed. That alone is remarkable to me.
It is obviously in GM’s best interests to keep some things quiet for a while. Those here that don’t understand that apparently have other agendas.
In fact, I would argue GM has told us more than they should have; and did so too early.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:34 pm)Gonna post an ee store thing…
might get modded…
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:35 pm)EEStor information overload (not a typo) in leaked interview with CEO Dick Weir
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/29/eestor-information-overload-not-a-typo-in-leaked-interview-wit/
-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:35 pm)It is in the internet warriors code.
…pretty standard fare
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:39 pm)Keep to the code matey!!!
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:39 pm)We can only hope GM designs one that will stand up to a lot of abuse. At that height above the ground (or should I say lack of height?) it is going to get banged around a good bit. Maybe it will “sense” a hit coming and will shrink up out of the way. Just kidding.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:39 pm)I hear the Cd is already like .196 on the Volt (EV1 is .195), and it has a CdA of 3.99…so barely any effect at all. (just kidding)
(I would think a mile would be the top, top, maximum effect on the AER,and that would be under the most ideal/extreme of conditions)
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:41 pm)Sounds like good advice. We can either take it or suffer the replacement cost. I think I will take the advice.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:42 pm)And some say the Chinese are bastards for doing such a thing….lol
I’m a “Pirate” dangit!!!
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Did you install the air dam yourself? Even if the cost is low, if you have the service department do it, it will cost a good bit more. Hopefully we will alter our driving habits and watch out for those things that “go bump in the road or parking lot”.
+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Ditto here. I have worked with engineers and if you don’t take their toy away you’ll never get it to market. Their always their worst critic.
+7
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Those are true statements Met First. Technically GM doesn’t owe us any information. Name another car company that has been this open and forthright about a top-level secret car project with a revolutionary powertrain? GM has been more upfront than I could have imagined with this car. I mean, if someone on the Volt team hiccups, we know about it. Now, it has to be said that GM also benefits from the exposure they give this car and this project as well. There are certainly risks to being transparent, but hopefully the gamble pays off if the product ultimately meets or exceeds expectations.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:46 pm)Nice to hear from you Jean-Charles. I would take the Ampera over the Volt just because of looks. That is a great looking car. I was hoping to see a Saturn version of it sold in the U.S., but not now looks like.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:48 pm)You may be correct, but his job is designing not engineering. Not much telling what he is working on. All I know is that GM better get busy and come up with some real block-busters as fast as possible and they better have quality written all over them – if they don’t want to find themselves standing in front of another bankruptcy judge in a very short few years. Chapter 7 judge.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:48 pm)GM knows that if they let the public media drive an unfinished, un-perfected generator mode, they’ll never hear the end of the scepticism felt after people drive an un-refined product, and will have to waste lots of money on PR explaining to everyone that the production model’s generator mode is NOW perfected…
Allowing people to drive something that isn’t done would seem rediculous to an engineer.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:50 pm)What car are you talking about. Other than that, a lot of what you said had some truth to it.
Edited: Are you talking about the bottom edge of the headlight where it looks like a stretched out “Z” on the Volt? Maybe in a way you could call that a lightning bolt.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:52 pm)I don’t see it exactly that way, but I do see the contour of the underside of the headlight as a lighting bolt, very clearly, and have always seen it that way.
Oops, hold it, my bong went out. Got a light anyone…?
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:53 pm)Statik:
I think Bob and his picture of the Volt (color) are there for you. hehe.
Seriously, he did pay you very respectable comment in the webchat!
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:56 pm)It was good of Boniface. It would be great if a few other GM executives would do the same. But they are probably too busy.
Does Statik even wear a tie? If so, pink might just be his color.
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:58 pm)Or maybe the next Voltec version will self-lower as the speed increases. This also will improve the aero, not to mention be damn cool.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:00 pm)I agree Mike
Let’s just let GM to their thing…
I’m sure Lyle will be one of the first ones there for the test drive/demonstration.
I just hope we don’t have to wait for the other journalists before Lyle can tell us about it.
+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:00 pm)Well yes, but…. Every once in a while I’ll be taking longer trips in the Volt, especially day trips, sometimes maybe cross-country. When I do, I don’t want to have to go looking for a gas station every 50 miles or so (and definitely don’t want to stop for a plug-in recharge)!!
When I buy a Volt I want to be able to use it like an ordinary car, i.e., short trips and long trips, without worry. If the Volt had only a one-gallon tank, its advantages over an all-electric (no range extender) vehicle would be quite diminished.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:03 pm)Same for my 95 and 02 Saturns. That’s not to say that there weren’t some awful grinding noises at curbs and stops, but aside from some presumed (invisible) roughness, there were no ill effects for either car.
If this really does become a problem, how hard (expensive) would it be to put some kind of actuator on the air dam to raise and lower it depending on the speed of the vehicle? Might this even increase AER from the current IVer design?
-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:04 pm)I just tried to place a reply directly under Mike-O-Matic’s SL2 comment, but it ended up where it did instead. This box was originally intended as a second attempt to post up there (now edited out). What gives?
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:04 pm)IMHO, the Prius has set the bar extremely high and the Volt will have a difficult time reaching it.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Dude…you’re killin’ me today. lol
I went back and looked for the (what is it) lightning strike…I didn’t see it, at all!
I thought it was just me, being inept.
-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:09 pm)Oh, they have taken every nut and bolt out of that new Prius i am sure. They have sliced and diced Toyota cars and trucks for years, how do you think they have been improving their quality over the years ?
+4
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:16 pm)Exactly. One of the main selings points of the EREV, to me, is to make it a dual purpose car. That way I don’t have to rent a car for weekend trips.
Also, I like having a margin of safety so that I can feel comfortable using the entire AER on most days. One gallon of gas isn’t enough for that. At least IMHO.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:16 pm)GM employee test drivers only. Nothing available for release to the “general” public. Soon I am sure Lyle will get a call. Maybe even Statik. And, don’t forget. Next spring Lyle and myself are going to get to keep one for 3 or 4 months. (I hope, I hope, etc, etc)
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:17 pm)I gave up on wearing a suit and tie along time ago, but I’ll make exceptions for that one.
Truth be told, I’d probably end up framing it and putting it on my wall beside a shot of my Volt…that is if I can figure out how to get GM to sell me one. (I’m still holding out hope that I can not only get the tie, but also a personalized, derogatory message from Bob on it as well, heeh)
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:17 pm)Yeah, that is why “beta versions” are never released to the public for evaluation and feedback. No one has asked for the “secret” final design number for the gas tank, only what the size of the preliminary tank is in the production intent vehicle. GM initially indicated the tank would be about 12 gallons, and would have more than a 600 mile range. Then it was suggested the tank might be cut to 6 gallons and the car would have more than a 300 mile range. An 8 gallon tank with a 400 mile range would be very similar to many ICE only vehicles with 12 to 18 gallon tanks. To not extend the range to a distance typical of other cars would seem odd to me.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:18 pm)Exactly what I was thinking. Makes sense to me.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:21 pm)I agree the size of the tank has little meaning when you are driving around town or very short distances beyond the AEV range. But if you want to go across country or from Dallas to Atlanta, having 5, 6, 7 or 8 gallons in the tank just let you drive until you decide to stop to stretch your legs and/or fill-up. I would not want to stop on a trip every 75 to 100 miles to top off a 2 gallon tank.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:22 pm)I’m going to go with the obvious response on the Cd/CdA question…as in, why doesn’t GM just use the same ‘flexible’ scale as well? However, I’m thinking they really just don’t want to tell us right now, and that is a reasonable excuse in their opinion. However, they should probably just say, “Hey, we aren’t telling you right now.” Boom, case closed…no internet speculation, and no slandering of others.
If other people lying is really the only stumbling block to us getting some Cd information, they could say something like, “We have tested the Volt and it has a Cd thats .01 lower than the Insight in our wind tunnel”…huzzah! Problem solved, and we get a little information. The actual number would be nice, but comparitive figures would be just about as good.
(Specifically, I think most of us would like to know the Cd, CdA in relation to that 2010 Prius they are testing next week)
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:23 pm)I’m sure that john1701a will be glad to loan his Prius to Bob for the week-end, provided it’s still in one piece when he gets it back!
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:24 pm)I think they are sitting on the secret that it’s actually quite a bit more than 50mpg in charge-sustaining mode, to prevent (as Laura M suggested) Toyota from feeling the need to move up it’s plug-in plans.
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:26 pm)For one thing, they’ll really have to scrub it down after the Prius breaks wind.
“As a scientist, Throckmorton knew that if he ever broke wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it.”
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:27 pm)I think you are correct. Bob Boniface seems to not find it unpleasant (not his words) so I suppose it must not be a big deal. But like most people we distrust things we are not sure of until we can see, touch and hear it ourselves. Even if Lyle drove the dang thing and said about what Bob did, I would withhold all my judgment until I experienced it first hand. Wouldn’t you?
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:29 pm)Agreed, but cmon, the tank size is whatever it will be. Who give’s a rat’s a$$ if it can go 300 – 700 miles on a full tank. Theoretically they only need to go 300 by fed requirement. By then, you’ll have to eat, piss and take sh|t dude. OR get a friggin ticket for going to damn fast to cover the 300miles in one sitting. Wouldn’t your ass cheeks fall asleep?
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:29 pm)Hope that air dam will clear latters laying in the roadway. Here in Dallas I see latters falling off pickups hauling illegals (yea we got about a million of em crawling around D/FW metro area) to their construction worksites about once or twice a week.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:31 pm)The question keeps coming to mind about people’s experience with GM’s two-mode hybrid vehicles. Don’t they shut off at stop lights? When you start up do they make a “disturbing” sound or does it “jerk” the vehicle in some way? I have not heard of any problems. The Volt’s cabin is going to be insulated even more so than any other GM vehicle. Seems to me we would hardly notice the ICE coming on as long as it comes on at a low rpm and then slowly increases to the level they need it to run at given the need at the time. Just color me curious. Any one got some experiences they want to relate?
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:34 pm)Actually that’s exactly the definition of a beta version. Something released to the public for evaluation and feedback.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:34 pm)Bob Boniface did say the Volt had the best second only to the EV1 in (and these are the key words) GM history. That is GM history. Not all manufacturers. So, we wait to see. It is going to be good and so what if the Prius beats it on paper by a little bit. Just look at the Prius against the Volt where it is really going to count.
-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:35 pm)I’m pretty sure we hijacked a old thread ‘real good’ talking about that one recently…autoblog is just a little slow with getting that news out.
(As I recall it clearly sppoked the Unicorn population into believing their horns would soon be harvested)
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:36 pm)The days of developing products in a dark room somewhere secret are long gone. Most companies want and seek out feedback during the development process now. The internet has only made this more possible.
The more information they can put out early in the process, the better it will be for them, and the end product will be that much better.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:39 pm)Truth about Cars is really starting to rag on GM for sidestepping the MPG questions:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-152-gm-still-dancing-in-the-dark/
(Of course being overly pessimistic is all they do…I love that site)
————————————-
Here is the article:
Once again, GM has dodged the question on the Volt’s ultimate flat-can fuel economy. From their FastLane Blog, a CoverItLive session with Bob Boniface, I read the following exchange:
[Comment From David]
Hi Bob, Can you give us an approximate number of how many mpg the volt will achieve after the battery runs out?
2:04 Bob Boniface: When battery is depleted you should expect several hundred more miles running on engine generator.
I imagine several people immediately pounded away on their keyboards with “How big is the gas tank?” But that question was never selected and the answer never offered.
The message from a few days’ ago (as blogged on TTAC): ”over 30mpg.” On an earlier CoverItLive session on FastLane, I noted that someone had asked, very specifically, about extended range fuel economy after battery depletion. He was cheerily told that GM expected the Volt to get an EPA score “in the triple digits,” which clearly includes the battery charge. I’ve seen the question asked clearly, elsewhere, and ignored.
When is GM going to stop dancing around and just answer the damned question? GM and the fanboys over on GM-Volt like to talk about how “open” GM has been about the Volt development process. But some of the most important items are buried in layers of obfuscation. As usual.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:40 pm)I say “more power to them”. Hopefully they can learn something useful that they can use. It certainly has been done to them over the years.
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:46 pm)The range extender is a big selling feature of the Volt along with the ability to use mostly no gasoline on daily commutes for about 75% of the drivers in the U.S. We just don’t know what the MPG is going to be on generator mode, just yet. GM had mention 50 MPG at one point when they were talking about 40 MPC and another 400 miles on an 8 gallon tank. They withdrew the talk about an 8 gallon tank, but never quite refuted the assumed 50 MPG (400 miles divided by 8 gallons of gas in a full tank). Most of us assume it will be over 40 MPG and hope for anything over 50. Hope lives eternally.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:51 pm)That is right. Just get it done!
+5
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:54 pm)Nissan’s EV-IT will soon be connecting millions of their plug-in vehicles to a global data center via mobile networks. Yes, these guys get it. Are you listening NEW GM ?
BONUS ALERT: It will be iPhone ready !!
Using Nissan’s planned iPhone application, drivers will be able to remotely monitor and control their vehicle’s battery charging, air conditioning and heating.
Does the mighty Volt have anything like this ? Ummm…let me think…NO!
Time for an OnStar upgrade…heeehee
Get ready for the future…it begins August 2nd…unleashing Car 2.0
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:57 pm)You must have swallowed your chop sticks. Keep on hoping. Both vehicles will be great ones to own, but I will make mine a Volt. I have already turned down the chance to purchase a Prius in 2007 and 2008. Just wasn’t satisfied with it being from Toyota. Gave me the creeps to think I might actually agree to purchase a Toyota vehicle just because it was a good high mileage hybrid. After thinking it over several days (both times) I told the Toyota dealer I was just not interested. But, the Prius is a good car – just not for me personally. Although I might purchase one for my wife if GM doesn’t come out with something to satisfy her.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:00 pm)No truer words have been spoken on this site. You know how some people are. You tell them a little and they expect you to let slip all the secrets you have so they can hash them around. You can never please all the people all the time (well you can’t please all the people any time). GM has done a remarkable job keeping us informed. I have to give them credit where credit is due.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:02 pm)Like the French car that used to do that. Don’t know if it still does or not.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:04 pm)Agreed.
I could give two sh!ts about the Cd. In fact if it has to look like a prius…I don’t want it (no offense).
Now maybe that’s not the way to be, but I’ll bet my Volt waiting list number that there are many more consumers out there that feel the same way.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:04 pm)I have not experienced any problem as long as I click on the correct “reply” tag. Maybe you just thought you were clicking on his reply tag.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:05 pm)It doesn’t need to be perfect, just half way work, at a good price. We don’t need a Cadillac Electroganza.
-2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:05 pm)I would like to see this list of so-called GM Best Practices. Has it been approved by Dave ? (Letterman that is).
+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:06 pm)Need to be a troll? There’s an app for that.
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:06 pm)Just stick it up against that perceived lightning bolt. That should do it. If not you probably are too far gone to notice it didn’t light.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:10 pm)Personally, I don’t see why Maximum Bob couldn’t accommodate you on both points. How about it Bob? You are still reading this site, aren’t you? If anyone deserves a derogatory message from Bob Lutz, its Statik. I couldn’t think of a better thing Bob could do for him. Except include the pink tie in the package.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:12 pm)Still looking for the secret ingredient
of prius and hybrids
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:15 pm)…just half way work…
Buddy Ro the Volt is the car for you.
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:15 pm)How do you think Toyota climbed up from making “beer can” cars and trucks to making world class vehicles? They all do it. The Japanese invented the practice. And perfected it also.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:16 pm)It would be really “sweet” if that were true. Let’s hope.
-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:19 pm)Everybody is a genius, where were all these “engineers” when GM was designing it?
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:20 pm)It does get weird though, if you start to reply, then click the “cancel” link.
Like, getting thrown the the bottom of the whole thread and the post text winding up in that posting form. This happens in FireFox 3… don’t know if it happens in IE7 or IE8.
Probably just your garden-variety coding boo-boo.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:23 pm)The Volt needs an iPhone interface to their PCM. Hopefully some apple/car geeks can create a hack for this. It shouldn’t be too difficult.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:23 pm)Even when the gen’l public gets a go, they may be subject to a nondisclosure agreement for a while… so who knows??!?
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:24 pm)He did sidestep the question of gas mileage while in range-extending mode, though. Someone asked him specifically about MPG while in range-extending mode, and his reply what that the car would travel several hundred miles after exhausting battery power.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:27 pm)With software releases, you are correct. Not that sure about autos. GM is breaking a lot of new ground with the Volt and the public being informed about its progress.
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:28 pm)You people are all confused, the Volt is an electric vehicle first.. 0 gas needed.. wave as you drive past the lines of Prious owners at the gas station fighting over the last drops of gas.
That is the real reason the recent test drives were with the genset disabled.. they wanted to concentrate the publicity on the electric experience only.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:29 pm)Latters? Oh, you mean “ladders”. I would not want to run over a ladder even with my larger car. A truck, maybe.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:32 pm)I was hoping that someone would ask him why the Volt won’t have a full “belly pan” like the Cadillac Converj concept. I asked him 3 or 4 questions, but didn’t get a reply.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:33 pm)You got that right.
With 1.6 billion iPhone application downloads and counting somebody must want one.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:33 pm)Looks kinda like GM doesn’t want to answer the question, doesn’t it? I can’t say I blame them. Mostly because of what LauraM said earlier. It would give Toyota an edge and time to tweak the Prius some more. Right now Toyota probably thinks they are in “high cotton”. No use shaking their belief, I say. Not until much later in the process.
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:34 pm)I care about the size of the gas tank just about as much as i care about the ground clearance of the air dam, LOL. Non-issues, IMHO.
LJGTVWOTR!! Don’t Sweat The Little Stuff (DSTLS)
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:36 pm)Maybe so. Maybe so. We don’t know just what interface GM will provide. Nissan is doing a big PR to try to steal some “Green” creditability. They need it, just like GM. We will just have to wait and see how things work out both companies.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:37 pm)Geez, I hope so but I’m not betting on it. After all, once the battery charge is used up and the Volt in running in generator-range mode, it will be lugging around the 375 lb. battery, which will be so much dead weight. That’s essentially two adult passengers. It will have to factor in on MPG.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:38 pm)Right.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:38 pm)If exhiliration was a disease….TTAC would be the antidote.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:39 pm)To me it’s the number 1 issue I need to know about the car. It’s an extended range vehicle, we need to know the mileage in extended range.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:40 pm)Somebody done got a bad case of Tunnel Vision.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:44 pm)And Toyota didn’t slice and dice GM’s cars? Who do you think invented the electric starter? The catalytic converter? And basically most of the innovations anywhere from 1920-1965?
And GM always knew how to improve their quality. It’s called spending more money per car. Something they didn’t have the luxury of with their union contracts, and the relative price of the dollar.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:45 pm)I meant Ladders, you know those steppy things that those little jumpin beans use to get on our roofs.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:45 pm)Actually, I doubt if the Japanese invented it, even though they are famous for being good at it. I’m thinking that Throg the caveman probably “reverse engineered” his neighbor Grog’s stone spear point when he saw how well it killed a Woolly Mammoth or a Mastodon, LOL.
I’ll bet that nasaman could tell us some stories about who “reverse engineered” the German V-2s after WWII.
Just human nature at work.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:45 pm)I think the typical consumer, and even the enthusiast won’t necessarily say “hybrid” when they see the Volt as much as they will say “$39,995!!!?”.
With gas being cheap, the Volt will fail much like the EV1 unless the price can be brought down to sensible levels. So gas needs to go up, or price needs to go down.
ATTN GM: Bring the price down. You can shave a bit off the price now that the majority of the R&D expenses have been covered by John Q Public since you went Chapter 11.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:47 pm)quick, patent that name!
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:49 pm)As much as the EEstor “leaked interview” is entertaining reading, I cannot get my brain around the fact that, on the one hand, they are not busy producing a prototype ESU but a “pre-production” ESU and, in fact, are busy as bees getting the production line up and running, but on the other hand, they have yet to supply Zenn or anyone else with a custom-made, prototype ESU to tool around with to see how it compares with a bank of lithium ion battery cells. If this thing is so damn well protected by patents, what’s it gonna hurt?
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:49 pm)I like these two comments:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
thalter :
July 29th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Again, people who focus on the MPG of a single mode of operation miss the point of this car.
That is like taking your car as asking what the MPG is idling at a stop light, or why you get better mileage going downhill than up.
psarhjinian :
July 29th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
“Again, people who focus on the MPG of a single mode of operation miss the point of this car.”
I kind of agree. I think it’s an interesting question, and one worth knowing the answer to if you’re going to buy the car, but it’s not really all that important…
…kind of like asking about the skidpad grip of a Corolla, or the cargo carrying limits of a Corvette.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:51 pm)GM isn’t copying the Prius and selling it in their home market in clear violation of Toyota’s patents. That’s a huge difference.
Jul 29th, 2009 (2:56 pm)Actually, we didn’t have to reverse-engineer rockets after WWII. Instead we just brought all those original engineers to Alabama to “continue” V2 and other rocket development. BTW those same German engineers created the Space Shuttle and its Booster Rockets as well as Reagan’s Star Wars defense missile technology that is currently being used to defend Israel and the U.S. from BM attacks.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:05 pm)10 years from now they will still be working on providing a pre-production prototype.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:09 pm)Looking at it from their point of view, I can’t blame them either for not ‘spilling the beans’, but I really can’t take that step further and see how Toyota would be worried, or make any alterations to the Prius because of it.
I seriously doubt the Volt as it stands now is any serious threat to the CdA that the Prius puts out…I mean, most of us have seen both of them in person, and well…you can just tell by looking at them.
Even if somehow the Volt was marginally better, I kinda doubt that would prop them (Toyota) to do a tear down/rebuild of a 8 week old platform just to eek out a slightly better number before the Volt comes out in limited production late next year (allegedly). I think if GM claimed a lower number, they would just /shrug…maybe mutter someing about electric propulsion, lol.
With production to the public coming in 488 days (according to Lyle’s clock), that really doesn’t leave enough time for anyone to do anything…and I think very few customers care/make their car purchasing decisions based on the Cd/CdA, at least not enough for another automaker to build/adjust a whole platform just to say it was ‘slipperier that the Volt’
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:09 pm)As long as that gas tank can get you back home (i.e. 20 miles) you shouldn’t care. The idea here is to use ELECTRICITY. And you know that once you venture beyond your 20 mile bubble the Volt will be wasting gasoline to get your sorry butt back to the house for some more hospitable fuel in the form of ELECTRONS.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:13 pm)Nobody does that. They copy only pieces of it and “Bastardize” it for their own thing and call it “Mine!”.
I’ve been in mfgr for a good 10yrs and, yes that is what happens. Not cloning the product but getting the knowledge of it’s function/functions. We did it in two of the really big companies that shall not be named.
I R A Pirate!
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:14 pm)None taken. I understand exactly how you feel. You want a car that looks like a car you want to drive and have parked in your driveway or garage. You don’t want a bubble car or one that looks like a stretched out lemon. The Volt is on the edge of being too Prius-like without being too far over the edge. I have seen some concept cars that were designed as new “modern” looking cars that did actually look good. But not many. I want a sleek car with 4 doors, a roomy trunk and room to seat 4 full sized adults or 2 adults and 3 children. The Volt meets most of these requirements except for the 2 adults and 3 children. Have to wait for the Orlando Voltec powered small SUV in about 2012.
-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:19 pm)Bobby Boniduceface has got to be yanking my crank. Like GM has never grossly exaggerated its aero specs. Oh pulleeeeez. Give it to me hard. That hurt Bobby.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:21 pm)It was that Iced tea I got at Long Island……
P
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:25 pm)Man, here in CA, it’s the ripped off Diesl Truck “Re-treads” on the freeway. Their all over the friggin place.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:31 pm)gaters!
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:36 pm)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS#Model_history
Citroen DS
WAY ahead of it’s time!
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:37 pm)Does the same in IE8.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:40 pm)Ka-CHING! Ka-CHING! Ka-CHING!!
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:40 pm)If it’s like the one on my Malibu it’s a couple small bolts and 5 minutes to remove.
I DID have the car on jackstands, it’s too low when on the wheels.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:43 pm)They were avoiding employment at GM because of the layoffs an BK….GENIUS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:44 pm)THAT would be priceless!
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:45 pm)Troll
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:46 pm)Is that why “Unni” hasn’t been around?
lol…
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:47 pm)I saw GM old stock jump when Christmas in July post came on line .
Just a stupid idea but if you sold two high mileage Volt mules on E-Bay . How much do you think they would bring ?
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:50 pm)LOL… you crack me up Captain!
You are absolutely right as well!
But jeez you are funny while you do it!
(Trying to get the sleeping butt cheeks vision out of my head…)
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:50 pm)I’ve often wondered if you could actually fuel a vintage steam traction engine off those retreads and go from coast-to-coast (not very fast).
Retreads on the side of the Interstate are not just a California phenomenon, Cap’n.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:51 pm)And to climb over our border fences. I knew what you meant. I was just picking at you.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:52 pm)“I think they are sitting on the secret that it’s actually quite a bit more than 50mpg in charge-sustaining mode”
Technically they can adjust DC boost to whatever they want. They can make 80mpg if they really want. My guess is they are testing to find the best average setting/results. If it’s above 50MPG then they will tune down to 50MPG if it is a few below 50, then they will tune the DC boost (from batt pack) up to achieve 50mpg. When software controlls sh|t like this, it allows for much more flexibility.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:54 pm)Will a better CD on the Volt than the Prius worry Toyota? Nah.
Will better gas-only mpg prompt them to step up their plans? It could happen, IMO.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:56 pm)My experience reveals it is a complete non-issue, just a tactic to change focus. Sorry to be blunt. But the transistion only takes 1 second and it is the rest of the drive following that we still aren’t told anything about.
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:59 pm)I really think this is the case as well.
Running the genset at optimised speeds will make it very efficent.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Maybe not in the US. But they do it in China all the time. They used to do it in India too, but I think they stopped now that India has its own biotech companies.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Jackson says “I think they are sitting on the secret that it’s actually quite a bit more than 50mpg in charge-sustaining mode”
———————————————————-
I just said 50 mpg because this is what the web site says the computer simulation predicts. Generally computer projections are, if anything, a bit optimistic but usually reasonably accurate. Assuming that the engine used in the simulation is the one actually used in the car, with GM’s experience my guess is that the simulation is close, though in actual practice it could be more or less.
In some ways once the Volt is in charge sustaining mode both are PHEVs, so even with different designs it wouldn’t surprise me if the results were similar. Eventually we’ll find out.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:12 pm)N Riley said:
“GM employee test drivers only. Nothing available for release to the “general” public. Soon I am sure Lyle will get a call. Maybe even Statik. And, don’t forget. Next spring Lyle and myself are going to get to keep one for 3 or 4 months. (I hope, I hope, etc, etc)”
——-
I’m getting a call? Woo-wee, time for you to take some time off Neal. (=
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:16 pm)uh huhhhh….
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:17 pm)Strictly speaking, I don’t think that “charge-sustaining mode” can take from the battery pack much more than regeneration can replace without damaging the battery. This is another factor to juggle (no doubt they’re more worried about pack longevity than a point or two of mpg).
My point on charge-sustaining mode being better than most people think is based on a couple of things:
1) If the generator is powering the motor from one of it’s fixed rpms, only the difference between load and capacity comes from the battery (or goes to the battery), less electrical losses.
2) The difference between having to supply every surge of power under every possible condition, and selecting from a series of most-efficiently-tuned rpms is likely to be much more significant than the typical hybrid system.
3) Don’t forget regeneration. “Lugging a heavy battery” during charge-sustaining mode effects acceleration, but regeneration means getting a fair amount of that energy back.
This combination in a small, aerodynamic car has the potential to be counter-intuitively large.
-2
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:22 pm)I want one, but not at 40 grand!!
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:26 pm)10 years from now, I expect that prototype will be on a museum shelf of false-dawn/scam technologies; somewhere between Joseph Newman’s energy machine and the original cold-fusion experiment.
I wouldn’t mind being proven wrong, but it’s going to take something significantly beyond anything we’ve heard from either Zenn or EEStor so far.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:26 pm)Van,
You say that like it’s a bad thing? (lol). I think they have to stop short of giving Toyota and Honda personal tours.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:28 pm)WATCH OUT _ This can’t be the real Statik. Either that, or the pink tie is too tight (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:28 pm)You must watch Bill O’Reilly on Fox. Pithy and an Opiner. Quite a combination.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:28 pm)Very true points Sparks/Laura. If it is going to be a EREV, I think most people will be assuming it can do everything, and go as far as a regular ICE…rightly or wrongly.
I think the minimum the Volt can get away with is a 6 gallon tank, which is probably what it was intended to get when they axed it down… considering how it was a 12 gallon double bladder system originally.
People expect the Volt (as a EREV) to operate within the same parameters of a standard car…and that is 350ish miles. Only having 1 gallon means stopping every 40-50 miles after your electric juice runs out…or if you didn’t plug it in the night before. The exceptionally ‘long trip’ metric seems to be one of the main cornerstones of justification for the existence of the EREV platform.
—-
Sidenote: If they can’t hit the 50 MPG claim, and end up with something more like 40 MPG, then they likely have to look at 8 or 9 gallons.
Which is likely why wouldn’t hear what the size of the tank is. Everyone knows the mantra of ‘over 300 miles of total range’ that GM throws around…and if GM says anything other than 6 gallons, everyone will immediately jump on the math.
ie) 8 gallon tank translates to 35ish MPG
(320ish miles – 40 AER = 280 on gas / 8 gallons = 35 MPG)
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:29 pm)I’d give Lyle SOME credit, so I’d trust his opinion until I had good reason to doubt it.
JMO,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:31 pm)Assuming that they disassemble a Volt to check it out, I’d buy the PARTS.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:31 pm)To me Boniface’s comment about the variance between claimed and tested Cds was an eye opener, and leads me to think GM should not disclose the Cd. For them it will be tails I lose heads you win. Assuming that Boniface is being truthful, and I think he is, then what we have is creative specing. Happens all the time in all kinds of industries.
The problem is that if customers start reducing performance to a number, here it would be aerodynamic performance reduced to Cd, then if you release an accurate Cd and your competitors release an “creatively enhanced” Cd then everyone says your design sucks and you’re a moron. In this regard, I’ve seen people criticizing GM and the Volt based on a guesstimate of its Cd. In fact, Statik has used an off-hand remark by Lutz about the Cd to argue the superior range of “The Vehicle We Will Not Name”.
IMHO this means that GM should not release its Cd number. It has nothing to gain and a lot to lose. When the car is released it will go X miles (or X miles on Y watts) based on the EPA drive cycles. Since this number can’t easily be gamed it’s the number an honest manufacturer will want to use, despite the fact that these range numbers might prove disappointing in real world driving situations.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:31 pm)Guys… He said several hundred miles.
No need to go down a rat hole on this one.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:34 pm)Indeed Captain, I don’t see any real reason why you need greater than 300 miles range for a petrol engine.
Don’t get me wrong, sometimes it is nice/convenient, like if you want to just drive the I-90 for fun, and you often get 75+ miles between gas stations, so you have to pull over with still a third of the tank unused…but it is rarely ‘that’ big a inconvience.
/suck it up lazy people with unusual driving stamina
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:35 pm)We also have the occasional pickup truck bed liner. Bolt it in?? Why?
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:37 pm)Belly pans create at least as many issues as they solve.
Cooling and access for maintenance are two big problems there.
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:37 pm)No name’s got at least eleven alter egos, now! (currently showing 10+ votes).
Maybe Lyle (or a community volunteer) will need to institute a more rigorous procedure for membership (real email address to which a coded link is sent, etc).
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:39 pm)Capt,
What’s gained by decreasing the mpg to 50? Just like I think the release AER will be more than 40, I believe that the MPG will exceed 50. Then again, I believed that the release date would be Independence day and if ask wouldn’t believe GM would launch a competing site. Go figure.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:41 pm)Bruce,
I think the main selling point of the Volt is the fact that it won’t use any gas most days when you drive to work.
The addition of the range extender allows the Volt to be an everyday car.
Be green AND get to the mountains THAT’S smart!
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:42 pm)In consumer electronics the difference between number one and number two is large, very large. it’s frequently a winner takes (almost) all kind of contest. Right now the Prius is number one. When the Volt comes out it will be number two.
To the extent its sales are driven by the fact that it’s the number one “green”, Prius sales will be hurt. To the extent the Prius is just a good reliable car that gets great mileage, they won’t. It’s as simple as that.
For clues how this work out, I’d look at the respective sales numbers of the Insight and the Prius.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:42 pm)We’ve covered this time and time again.
The Gen 1 Volt is going to be expensive. Deal with it.
If you don’t like the price, then buy a nice Malibu and wait for gen 2 or 3.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:43 pm)Er, ever hear of Apple?
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:49 pm)LOL Harr harr!!
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:51 pm)An interesting question!
They would be a little piece of automotive history.
There are people out there who have lots of money and who like cars… Jay Leno would be in on that I bet.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:52 pm)Cool!
Wait for gen 2!
Whew! one more out of the gen 1 line so I can get mine!
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:52 pm)I’d rather run over the former than the latter.
-1
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:56 pm)I (not strangely) agree that there isn’t any benefit in GM giving out a number. It’s given the computer simulation number which was 50 mpg. I’m not sure what more people want until the EPA tests are completed. Toyota released the mpg numbers when the Prius was released. Can’t see why GM would want to do otherwise.
I also agree that Toyota is not going to respond to the Volt by modifying the Prius. To begin with it won’t matter in any event. The Volt is going to get something like a 250 mpg number. Would it matter if the Prius jumped a mpg or two?
I don’t agree that you can tell a car’s Cd by looking at it. Many surprises have come out of the wind tunnel, including the fact that sharp edges reduce drag more than rounded ones. You can of course tell the A by measuring it, but I suspect the A between these two vehicles won’t be all that different.
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:00 pm)To me your point of view illustrates the mistake that many make of thinking of a BEV as a city car. The idea is that a small BEV makes sense in a place like NYC because of congestion and parking issues. That’s true as far as it goes, but for me the main reason to have a car in Manhattan was to be able to leave on the weekends. And for that you don’t want a car that goes 60 miles.
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:09 pm)I always kind of thought the production Volt styling was closest to something like a Honda Civic.
http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/2007_honda_civic_si_coupe_si_product_shot_3_quarter_angle_front.jpg
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:16 pm)I agree with you on this point. we are down to the production intent model with minor tweaks. You’d think the gas tank size would have been worked out by now. at least this much could have been disclosed.
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:24 pm)Yes, the last thing we should be doing is punishing good behavior!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:25 pm)Nope. I can get around that. It’s more effort to try than to just letitgooooo….
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:26 pm)Hey,
Hands off the Unicorns.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:28 pm)Re tank size I asked (twice) but understandably was unable to get the info. Good for GM.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:32 pm)Geez, attacking them for prudent behavior. Who’d have thunk that could happen on the TTAC site.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:34 pm)Oh, Don…still big on randomly trying to call me down I see, lol.
It wasn’t a offhand remark I used…it was a DIRECT quote from him, that he used, on NATIONAL TV, STANDING in front of a completed production-protype shell that had been put through the wind tunnel, and I quote:
“….instead of having, I don’t know, a .43 drag coefficient, we had to get down to .27 .28, which is where we are now (on the production shell)”
Here is the video, you can watch him say it if you like, @ 44:30:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5331337021910564036&ei=ectwSpboEqXSrQKv05Bl&q=bob+lutz+charlie+rose
You can choose to believe it or not, but that is the BEST answer we have so far…I make no apologies for using it.
/sources and links are good friends of mine (=
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:34 pm)My Bonk-A-Troll ap is on the fritz.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:34 pm)“What’s gained by decreasing the mpg to 50?”
Future flexibility. They probably don’t want to go all out on everything all at once. 50MPG this year, 55 next by just tuning the additional DC boost from the batt pack. Then when batt cells get much better, they can tune up more. It give’s them room to grow.
Kind of like when Firewire came out. It was designed to run at 800mb/s but they dumbed it down to 100 I think then as the years went on they came out with 200mb/s the 400mb/s then 800. Basically milkin what they have to expand on.
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:37 pm)Well, it must not be as clear-cut as you say – these words come from Cadillac:
“An all-glass roof incorporates solar panels that help offset power drain from the vehicle’s accessories. Additionally, several aerodynamic and design efficiencies were incorporated to enhance the driving range, including:
* A full under-vehicle cover (belly pan)
* Minimal grille openings that reduce drag at the front of the vehicle
* Low-profile rearview cameras replace conventional outside mirrors to reduce drag
* Wheels are shaped to push air outward for smoother body side airflow
http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/experience/news_electric_vehicles.jsp
Jul 29th, 2009 (5:43 pm)Capt,
Was Firewire in the financial situation that GM is? They need the big bang up front.
JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:01 pm)Hi CJS, I will vote for that. California should outlaw trucks using retreads, I have no idea how many accidents they cause but you sure see sudden swerves to avoid the big pieces. I-40 is littered with them.
And a trucker friend of mine says they are a push, you pay a little less but get less mileage, no real savings.
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:15 pm)the idea is to not have to worry about long trips, or many short ones… but I’m slowly being convinced that the size of the tank is not that important as you presumable will be plugging in every night and will probably not see a gas station for many weeks on end.
I do not recall personally having to drive more than 300km (186 miles) in a single day. So although a 23 litre tank (about 6 gallons) seems quite small, 21.26 km per litre (50 mpg) should quite easily satisfy most people most of the time. This all comes down to the efficiency of the generator system, but there is no reason to think it won’t be as efficient as a Prius.
On a side note, the tank in the Pruis often cannot hold the advertised amount and in one case i read, being about 1/2 (I’m told this is due to the bladder used in the tanks and adverse cold weather conditions). Would this be the same for the Volt?
+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:30 pm)I agree it is tough to tell a car’s Cd by looking at, but what I said was, “I seriously doubt the Volt as it stands now is any serious threat to the CdA that the Prius puts out…you can just tell by looking at them”…big difference.
Guessing what a car’s Cd is, and guessing which of two cars have a low CdA are two totally different things.
It is hard to tell that a 94 Chevy Caprice has a lower Cd than a 2004Toyota MR2, (.34 vs .35), but it is pretty easy to know that the MR2 has a way lower CdA by looking at them together (5.8 vs 9.5)…and that is what I said.
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:40 pm)I’m curious if anyone has seen data from IVer’s released to media long before the cars are out for previous vehicles by any manufacturer.
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:48 pm)Unlike Eestor, GM doesn’t have a publicly traded stock anymore. They could come out tomorrow and announce that they get 1000 mpg in charge sustaining mode, and it wouldn’t benefit them financially at all. At least not until they produce the Volt, at which point they’d have to actually deliver.
_____________________
Unethical people in business or in other fields, seem to come to the conclusion that misleading press releases can help them, regardless of the actual benefits or costs.
Misleading press releases are IMO, ethical decisions not business case decisions. Misleading press releases, again IMO, tell you more about the people putting them out than about the companies affairs.
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:48 pm)Statik ol boy, I do think they would call you something.
Too bad you are hooked on black, on the grapevine I heard there is a planned Electrik Ark Blue model with a metal hair ball on the roof to discharge Statik.
Peace and Love.
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:52 pm)Did someone hijack Statiks handle again? Whoever you are it’s not like Statik at all
Jul 29th, 2009 (7:07 pm)Not even in the same BALLPARK.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
Jul 29th, 2009 (7:13 pm)You know it’s a tad more complicated than that. I don’t think you were serious but if you feel there is more than merely a hint of truth there to illuminate the point about declining resources due to rising legacy costs, google Deming. Or better yet, compare results of elementary schools based on dollars spent per pupil!
I know it’s tough to do things with shrinking resources, but leadership and entrepreneurship count for something too. When Walt Disney opened Disneyland there was a story going around that he didn’t have enough money to finish the landscaping. So he had his staff fabricate some labels. Then he labeled the weeds!!!! That’s getting the job done with the resources you have.
Roger smith had a vision of where to take GM but never changed the culture to accommodate it. Wags knew exactly where he wanted GM to go, but never put on the iron gloves worn by someone like Carlos Ghosn to take them there.
Jul 29th, 2009 (7:53 pm)Finally he assures us “The Volt aero performance is second only to the EV1 in GM history.”
http://www.gmeurope.info/press/intl/opel/en/2009_06_05_ecoFLEX/index.html
The Opel Insignia EcoFlex has a Cd of 0.26, so if the Volt is 2nd only to the EV1, then it must be lower than 0.26.
Also, Greg Cesiel in this interview states that the Volt’s Cd is not as good as the EV1, but states that it is close.
http://greenmonk.net/greenmonk-talks-to-general-motors-about-the-chevrolet-volt/
Jul 29th, 2009 (8:10 pm)Of course it’s not good to let your competition know everything that you are planning, as others have already stated.
But if GM has HCCI ready for the Volt (and maybe also the Cruze which they state will get excellent fuel economy), I project that the Volt might actually get a 60 to 70 mpg rating for highway conditions in charge sustaining mode.
http://www.motorauthority.com/opel-insignia-to-debut-hcci-sparkless-technology.html
Jul 29th, 2009 (8:25 pm)The system is designed to deliver the full 150HP. The genset is rated at only 53KW (~71HP), which means the rest of the 150HP is to be pulled from the batt pack and the remainig required is 78.9HP or 58.8KW. So yes, the additional power to deliver the 150HP will come from the batt pack by design.
This will be evident when you have traveled 100 miles already and you gun it to close off the speeding muscle car from passing you between that diesel truck.
Jul 29th, 2009 (8:40 pm)This is not a big deal, but your treatment of this makes the point. Looked at objectively, Lutz’s remark was quintessentially off the cuff. As you can see from the video, he actually PHYSICALLY waves his arms before giving an answer, which has to be about as good an introduction to a “hand waving” estimate as there has ever been. Then, as your quote indicates, he actually qualifies the number by prefacing them with the statement “I DON’T KNOW”.
How much less precise can you get? He’s explicitly saying he’s guessing and just giving some ballpark figures. He’s even told you that HE DOESN’T KNOW the number exactly. And yet, despite all these qualifiers, you treat the information like it comprises a solid number? On a 1-10 scale, with 10 being very solid and 1 being a joke, I’d give it a 6, mostly cause you can dance to it.
Moreover, your quote, while not inaccurate per se, is misleading because it leaves out all kinds of other information that contradicts it. As but one example, Greg Ceseil, who would be a lot closer the technical specifications of the car than Bob Lutz and therefore much more likely to have the precise numbers, has said that the Cd of the Volt will be “close” to the Cd of the EV1. Given that the Cd of the EV1 is generally reported to have been .19, if you wanted to selectively cite Ceseil then you could make the case that the Cd was .21 (.28 is not close to .19 but .21 sure is).
Here’s the interview. You can listen if you like. You’ll find the discusstion of the Cd starting at around 12:00 and the comparison to the EV1 at 13:35.
http://greenmonk.net/greenmonk-talks-to-general-motors-about-the-chevrolet-volt/
So you make my point. There is no benefit to GM in announcing the Cd. If they did announce the Cd, some people will take that and then compare it to all sorts of bogus numbers floated by other manufacturers or other sources, none of which can be confirmed and apparently most of which can not be duplicated. You’re doing something similar here and you don’t even have an official number, only an offhand comment.
/selectively cited sources aren’t friends of min (=
Jul 29th, 2009 (8:48 pm)…no doubt.
(=
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (8:49 pm)Clear if you take the time to actually read your post. Some people appear to know the answer, before the question is posed.
/just saying…
Jul 29th, 2009 (8:49 pm)You guys are so cynical…I can hardly stand it.
Jul 29th, 2009 (8:54 pm)Wow, he can jump into and out of character too.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:00 pm)Yes, if you do.
However, how often do you actually need the maximum horsepower rating of your conventional car’s engine?
If you’re not driving like Mario Andretti (or the typical driver of a German luxury car in Alpharetta, GA), it’s likely to average out to a relatively modest level of battery-charge (and replaced more slowly than the demand, if possible).
You can be sure that would-be electric drag racers will leave their mark in the Volt’s logging software.
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:02 pm)Don’t you boys make me pull over.
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:04 pm)First it’s ‘breaking wind,’ then it’s ‘number two.’
Just what are we coming to?
(=
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:06 pm)I didn’t say anyone would want to feed gator treads to a steam tractor, just wondered if it’s possible. It’s a sort of gedanken experiment.
Things can get pretty boring when you drive across country …
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:13 pm)Wow, you really can interpret things anyway you want can’t you.
Bob says, we had to get it down to .27 .28, and that is we are now, standing in front of the shell and you say, ‘erm…doesn’t count’. And for the waving his arms saying ‘I don’t know,’ he was refering to the ORIGINAL CONCEPT.
Then you hit me up with a Greg Ceseil interview and say, ‘well he doesn’t say any numbers specifically, but you could make a argument he means .21′
Well….no you can’t, because he doesn’t give us a statment at 13:00 of that interview, and this is what he says very clearly, “…what I can tell you is that it will be one of the most aerodynamically efficient vehicles out there”.
ONE OF THE MOST…not THE MOST, and as you know at the time of that interview, THE MOST efficient mass produced car was the Toyota Prius at .26. (Since passed a few months ago by the Mercedes E-class coupe at .24, .25 in the sedan). There is no way to interpret that statement at .26 or lower.
/selective reading and remembering I think is your thing
+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:33 pm)You think it’s easy to see the difference in the frontal areas? Let’s see:
Prius Dimensions: 58.7 X 68.7 X 175.6
Volt Dimensions: 56.3 X 70.8 X 177
So the frontal rectangle of the Prius is 4032.69 sq. in. and the frontal rectangle of the Volt 3986.04 sq.in. Bottom line: The frontal area of the Prius is larger by a grand total of 46.65 sq inches.
That’s doesn’t of course the end of the matter, but it’s certainly a good place to start. To my eye the Volt’s A will be a little smaller yet because the exterior roof line cuts in more, but that would just be a wild guess. I’m probably missing something, so perhaps you can help me out by explaining why you think there is such a large difference.
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:41 pm)They predict an increase in economy of 15%, so if the Volt gets 48mpg in charge sustaining mode then it would get 55mpg with the new engine.. and only 22% of the public would benefit from it since 78% drive less than 40 miles per day.
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:53 pm)of course Toyota’s “ace up the sleeve” is just to offer an option for a plug in pack, could even be third party if they dont want to spend too much money on it.
With proper use of the ICE they could even get 40 mile range with a much smaller pack than the Volt uses.. the customers wont pay too much attention that it always uses a tiny bit of gas to get those 40 miles.. they will just pay attention to the 40 mile range on the optional ($3999) plug-in pack.
For $4000 they could offer a 4kwh pack, assuming the existing pack is $2000 and modern lithium cells are $500 per kwh.. mix a bit of gas in and get 40 miles with that 4kwh pack.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:00 pm)maybe is time for cars to automatically adjust their ride height.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:18 pm)Resources matter. Yes. Some people can overcome the differential. But you have to admit it’s harder. And it gets harder the larger the difference in resources. And the resource differential between the American companies and the Japanese companies was enormous. If GM didn’t have legacy costs, they woudln’t have had more money for product development. They wouldn’t have had all that debt, and they wouldn’t have gone bankrupt–most of their debt was incurred when they had to fund their pension fund in 2003.
And the legacy costs wouldn’t be so huge (I don’t have the exact figure) if the unions didn’t negotiate retirement with full benefits at 48. It’s completely unsustainable to work for 30 years and get a pension and gold-plated medical benefits (not to mention life insurance) for 40 years.
I agree that leadership can make a huge difference. And some people have made enormous changes with limited resources. But I doubt anyone could have made enough of a change at GM. Not with the UAW in place with their work rules designed to reduce productivity. I’ve heard of Deming, and his methodology definately gave Toyota an advantage. But the domestic companies did try to copy his methodology–and the UAW fought them every step of the way. Notice that Ford’s headed towards bankruptcy even though they actually hired him, and they currently have a great CEO.
I agree that GM’s been lacking in terms of leadership. But I think Wagoner’s job was much harder than Ghosn’s, and I don’t think he was that bad given the obstacles he had to deal with. He did change GM’s culture, although not nearly enough.
By the way, after watching Jim Press and Fritz Henderson testify before congress about the dealership closings–I wish we had Jim Press at GM. I don’t know much about him except that he was sucessful at Toyota. Not so much at CHrysler, but he really didn’t have much of a chance since he started in late 2007. And, well, he just came across much better than Fritz did. Which is important given the huge public relations component of the CEO job.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:32 pm)Alrighty, lets keep going at it then…I didn’t say I think there is ‘such a large difference,’ what I said was that the Volt didn’t threaten the Prius’ CdA.
As for your ‘frontal area’ math, if they were both perfect rectangles that would make sense…but they aren’t:
Volt:
http://www.popsci.com/files/imagecache/article_image_large/files/articles/X11CH_VT005.jpg
Prius:
http://www.autoincar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/2010-toyota-prius-modelchange-5.jpg
Hard to tell the displaced area, but I can tell you the Prius’ roof in concaved, whereas the Volt is rising, so can probably wipe out a couple inches over the breadth of the car there…that is good for at least 100 sq inches. And GM has given no indication they have bettered the old generation Prius .26, which the 2010 Prius has.
Further to your frontal area math, what companies do when the underbelly is a mess is they put a big old air dam on the front, which is what you see happening in the Volt picture…note what is not on the front of the Prius, and its much higer clearance. So the Volt’s “frontal rectangle” is enlarged again over the Prius. Low aerodynamic drag does not require extremely low ground clearance.
If chassis components are streamlined there is no reason, beyond limiting exposure of the tires’ area, to prevent the airflow from passing under the car. Having air flow under the car can actually aid in eliminating lift-induced drag.
My conclusion is based on observation…and common sense.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:35 pm)what we do know is the car is always running on electricity (with the generator keeping the battery level at around 30%), so the take off should still provide instant torque as the electricity will be drawn from the battery with the generator then kicking in to keep the charge levels constant.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:37 pm)I agree with you about misleading press releases–but so far GM hasn’t issued any press release about the Volt’s mpg in charge sustaining mode misleading or otherwise.
My point was that spacing out press releases is clearly manipulative on Eestor and Zenn’s part. Their probably misleading press releases are about raising cash from equity offerings. (At least that’s what it looks like to me. I could be wrong. Disruptive technologies happen. And sometimes from the most unpromising sources. And I do think they are actually working on something. Although I doubt it will come to anything.)
But GM’s press releases are a completely different story. Unlike Zenn, they can’t hype the Volt and do an equity offering to raise cash. They’re issuing press releases as a PR measure. Period. They want the “green” contingent to know that they really are working on this car. And if we wait, they will build it. Spacing out the press releases doesn’t help them with that.
Jul 29th, 2009 (10:46 pm)Does reducing ground clearance REALLY reduce drag?
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/does-reducing-ground-clearance-really-reduce-drag-1783.html
Jul 30th, 2009 (12:46 am)I’ve cited the Ceseil interview several times before. It’s not exactly new. While not new, it was and remains the most authoritative statement about the Cd. You may think that .27 is “close” to .19 but, given the possible range would be .2 to .3, that seem highly unlikely.
Additionally, BillR just posted that the Opel Insignia has a Cd of .26. If we take Boniface at his word that the Volt has the lowest Cd of any vehicle in GM’s history other than the EV1, then the Volt would have a Cd lower than .26. Which is of course outside the range which Lutz tossed out.
I’m not sure how much room there is for interpretation here, but to the extent there is then we have two worlds. In your world a number “lower than .26″ means “.28″. In my world a number which is both “below .26″ and “close to .19″ means something like .22 to .24.
/fixating on statements of questionable importance which support your preconceptions while ignoring the preponderance of the evidence which doesn’t is, I think, your thing
Jul 30th, 2009 (12:53 am)Someone has reported that the Volt has a Cd = 0.301…or this is the value of one of the concept shells…anyone know?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient
Jul 30th, 2009 (1:03 am)The LAST (I believe I mean that in both senses of the word) GM we owned was a 2001 Alero and we managed to rip the dam pretty easily. It was stupidly low… I believe it even caught on those low concrete blocks they place in parking stalls at parking lots.
When I think of the clearance in a Corvette (as with any other high performance car) I think “borderline impractical”.
Jul 30th, 2009 (1:19 am)Doesn’t that exhaust pipe look overly low to the ground? I wonder if they had to do that because of the room used by the battery.
The looks are growing on me… but there are just way too many cut lines in front of the A-pillar… must be over 1/2 dozen.
Jul 30th, 2009 (1:25 am)statik says “And GM has given no indication they have bettered the old generation Prius .26, which the 2010 Prius has.”
——————————————————–
Really? Boniface just stated and reiterated that the Volt has the lowest Cd of any vehicle in GM history other than the EV1. The Opel Insignia has a Cd of .26. Not only is this “an indication”, it’s an explicit claim.
As for the frontal area, you’re completely reaching. The Prius has a larger frontal rectangle. That’s a fact. Claiming that you think the roof comes in more on the Prius is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. You can’t really tell from looking at two pictures. Plus, assuming you’re right and the Prius has an A which is 50 square inches smaller than the Volt’s, so what? That is insignificant and hardly the huge difference you claimed you could easily see. it could be 200 square inches and not really matter.
Finally, your new comments about the air dam and messy underbelly actually contradict what you’ve said before. You said before that you couldn’t tell the Cd by looking at a car but you could accurately estimate the cross sectional area. Now that it turns out that estimating the cross section isn’t so easy, and that the Prius has a larger frontal rectangular area, you now claim that you can accurately estimate the Cd by just looking at the vehicles. To support this new and contradictory claim, you now say that “common sense” tells us that the air dam demonstrates that the Volt has a high Cd (don’t ask me how you get to this one).
/seems like the classic case of a conclusion in search of evidence
Jul 30th, 2009 (2:17 am)From your reply which of the two companies would appear to act unethically.
If GM’ers were unethical would wouldn’t their press releases be used to gain any type of advantage, regardless if logically it seems the stock won’t reflect it in the short term.
It seems unethical people grab stuff because they can, not because in the long run what they gain enhances their company’s productive capabilities.
Jul 30th, 2009 (2:42 am)Exactly. Statik told us all two years ago GM was going under, so we couldn’t really call ourselves smart if we then raced up for a job we expected to lose soon.
On a related note, I saw the German finance minister on TV this morning. He said; if not for the state of the economy there is NO way Opel would have been bailed out.
It’s pretty close to what Statik said before Christmas about GM IIRC.
/Happy calling the shots from the sidelines.
Jul 30th, 2009 (2:47 am)http://twitter.com/EEStor_Updates
I am follower of that too
, and space channel too
Jul 30th, 2009 (5:17 am)I agree. Very nice reporting. I missed the whole thing, but it nice to read your synopsis. Thanks.
Jul 30th, 2009 (5:47 am)“we took the Volt ride height down as low as possible”
Ouch, that hurt. I am excited about seeing a truck or SUV EREV. A low slung car isn’t practical in California. It’s fine for the low-and-slow fart pipe cruiser “spark plate” crowd. But not for real world driving.
=D~
Jul 30th, 2009 (7:01 am)He said it was similar to a Corvette’s which on the C5 was a hinged, spring loaded piece that could take a curb hit easily and pop back into place. Not sure about the C6 but I assume it would be the same. It works great but I suppose anything could be broken with enough abuse.
Jul 30th, 2009 (7:47 am)I agree, but I also think it looks simular to other main stream cars.
An Altima, for example.
Jul 30th, 2009 (10:18 am)Is there any chance the Volt will have a bench front seat option? I have a family of four and sometimes when the grandparents visit, we do not want to take two cars. I also do not want to buy a three row SUV on my next outing. If you had a bench front seat it would not only expand your target market it would also be more interesting to law enforcement in community’s where the environment is a big concern.
Jul 30th, 2009 (11:12 am)Test…
Jul 30th, 2009 (11:36 am)A TEST
Jul 30th, 2009 (3:13 pm)I can see the Volt having a lower coefficient of drag over the Prius. The Prius is taller overall with high ground clearance; the bulbous mid section can’t help all that much either. The Volt is lower to the ground, has a lower roof height, and much more of a four-door coupe shape. The Prius is a miracle of aerodynamics for tall and boxy vehicles. I’m sure the Prius will have more interior room, but it’s not worth the hideous side profile.
Like I’ve said before it should be fine to have the Volt low to the ground. If you’ve been driving transportation appliances like Camrys and Accords your whole life then yes you will need to make some adjustments. You will need to take dips/inclines/gutters at an angle. You can increase your approach angle by moving the front wheels towards the incline by angling the front end of the vehicle off to the side. Speed bumps might possibly need to be taken at angles as well. You can set up the car at an angle with the front tire beginning to roll over the obstacle just as the front air damn is moving over the speed bump. You will need to use a bit more brain power as well, look for and remember where the curb is in relation to your vehicle at all times.
I feel really bad for those individuals that consider purchasing a vehicle based on the clearance if it’s’ front end air damn. Have you really never driven an exciting vehicle ever before in your life? Do you really doubt your personal driving skills that much that you can not trust yourself to negotiate curbs and inclines? Hopefully you can find comfort in knowing that there are indeed a large portion of sports cars with very low approach angles on the road at all times.
Jul 30th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Why California? Is it because you aspire for televised police chases that require a vehicle to jump curbs, still drive with deflated tires, and fly off freeway over passes with minimal damage?
Last time I checked other then the occasional earthquake, mudslide, or riot, Califor-nia is a fairly temperate state with good roads and highways.
Jul 30th, 2009 (6:27 pm)Bradyb …
Why California? Because this is where I do 95% of my driving. We have city drainage system troughs built into most intersections. Cars are grinding front metal all day .. every day. I sometimes wonder if my CR-V will negotiate of the dips without grinding. So far just one very minor scrape over 90,000 miles.
The Volt is going to cost $40,000 more or less. Won’t be willing compromise a whole lot at this price. The vehicle needs to function in the city environment and be dependable.
If I lived in Montana I wouldn’t buy a Tesla Roadster. Sure, it’s a great car. Lots of wheel spinning fun and only $115,000 out the door. But not the right vehicle for Montana.
California is over flowing with trucks and SUV. It’s safe to estimate the total combined mpg at about 20. There is great opportunity here for an EREV truck/SUV offering. And many willing to pay $40,000 for it.
=D~
Jul 30th, 2009 (10:02 pm)Agree! My Saturn has lost the front foil several times. Here we have a real “cow catcher”, choo choo and some assurance that all will be ok from engineers. Yes!!! Must be true, the Lads are barking.
And further. There seems to be, again, some self doubt about changing the beautiful prototype.
The Lads and I stand resolute!——Higgins
Jul 31st, 2009 (7:15 am)Yes, I did it myself. There are only a few bolts holding it on and due to the lowness of my car, I pulled it up on Rhino ramps. It took all of about 10 minutes to install it.
+1
Jul 31st, 2009 (10:27 am)I noticed that the car seems to be getting smaller, what size car will you end up with when it comes to market. Is there stlll some sort of priority list to buy the volt when it comes out? Who, what, and when? Who is in control of the list of potential buyers, you or the dealers? What will you or they charge for the car?When do you expect the car to really come to market.
Aug 3rd, 2009 (3:31 pm)I have been waiting for the Volt to come out. Now I am a little nervous. I live in the upper mid-west. Lots of snow here. If the front end is so low, will I be scrapping the snow drifts on the road? That could be a no go for me. I have to have a little clearance going down the roads here in the Minnesota – North Dakota region.
Aug 14th, 2009 (2:52 pm)Will I be able to drive a Volt from California to Maine?