Currently the Chevrolet Aveo is GM’s smallest production car in the US. Although low in price, sales aren’t terrific and the car is not popular. However, it is clear that small cars are a thing of the future, and GM has repeatedly said it would build them, and for the first time as a new company, actually make money on them.
We heard when the government brokered GM’s bankruptcy reorganization that the automaker agreed to build a new small car in the US for the US market, but did not announce what the car would be. Previously the Chevrolet Spark had been demonstrated and set for production, though with reorganization that has become more uncertain.
Today, new sketches have been released of a new subcompact or B-class GM car. The car will be called the Chevy Agile in South America where it will be released in the forth quarter of 2009.
It seems like the car is slated to replace the Aveo in the US in 2011, just as the upcoming Cruze will replace the Cobalt. Some reports speculate it will be called the Chevy Viva in the US.
In South America the car will be powered either by a 1.4 L 105 hp engine or an optional 1.8 L 129 hp engine.
“The Agile goes beyond a traditional hatchback,” said Carlos Barba, General Director of GM Design Mercosur. “It’s a car full of youth and a design that will surprise.”
Source (Autoblog)
GALLERY:
+3
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:11 pm)As EREVs come down in price, smaller cars will become unnessary.
Remember that nobody has ever mass-produced a 16kWh battery. Once EREV sales volumes start ramping up, manufacturing engineers will find hundreds of ways to cut costs. I believe the battery will cost 1/4 of what is does now within 6-8 years. They will also find ways to cut costs on other EREV parts as well (motor, generator, electric HVAC, etc.).
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Jul 28th, 2009 (8:16 pm)it is clear that small cars are a thing of the future,
——————————————–
Maybe, or maybe not.
What advantage would a customer see?
For sure they will see many disadvantages.
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Jul 28th, 2009 (8:18 pm)No Plug No Sale!
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+2
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:22 pm)Now, if GM actually made a small car that was of descent build quality (hello Honda?) and not horrible cheap like the Aveo, then they would sell big time. The main reason the Aveo sucks, is because it is so disgustingly cheaply made, and just feels so cheap.
Make a small car, and make it seem worthwhile like Honda & VW does, and you could actually sell them GM.
At least until EV’s take over the market.
Give it a try this time.
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:27 pm)I like the name. “Viva!”
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:31 pm)I hope that’s a real design sketch and not a rendering of some concept. It looks too good to be the final “real-world end result.”
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:49 pm)Fit buster?
Or, at the very least, Fit to be tied -!
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+5
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:49 pm)I have a $100 that says a 16kWh pack won’t be 25% of what it is today within 6-8 years.
Further to that, if the price did plummet that fast, you can be assured the death of the EREV platform would soon follow. That kind of pricing means you could have full BEVs sporting 70+ kWh packs on the cheap. I assume you extapolate it falling even furhter as time goes on as well.
70+ kWh packs translate into monster ranges, (even using DonC’s conservative ‘math,’ heeh). When electric ranges start hitting numbers like 300 and 400 miles, the EREV platform is in serious peril. Personally, I think it is 15-20 years before we start seeing anything like that kind of distance out of a afforable battery pack.
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Jul 28th, 2009 (8:50 pm)Love that VOLT like front end. Named after a paper towel, hopefully GM can wipe out the competition.
http://www.vivatowels.com/
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+2
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:50 pm)Will it have the fabled HCCI of the Cruze (perhaps in a smaller displacement)?
Will it have a five speed automatic?
(I’m still thinking “Fit,” though the concept looks more like a mini-Matrix: not a bad thing, if they can pull off the same kind of balance as the Honda).
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+5
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:54 pm)Some people (myself included) appreciate a well-designed small hatchback on it’s own merits. If it can have class-leading mpg, so much the better.
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-3
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:59 pm)Where is the hybrid version? The EV option?
I think they should call this the People’s Car 2.0. Supported and subsidized by taxpayers to fulfill union contracts. This car will not make money and the competition is going to be fierce for small ICE cars in the US. Soon China will be here.
So, I’m not too excited about this old technology and old business model that has already proven to be unprofitable. I think it will take a few more model failures for GM to realize that the ICE’s days at GM are over. Plain and simple. There is just too much capacity in the world for this dying technology. The faster they grasp this concept the better. OVER.
EVs, hybrids, public transportation, electrification infrastructure and possibly even renewable energy infrastructure (still time to get into that and since it ties neatly in with Car 2.0 they will have an advantage).
That’s the future. The faster they attack the more likely they will become one of the market leaders. You snooze you lose. Tesla is on it’s way. BP is moving quickly.
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-1
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:12 pm)Statik, as a Canadian you must surely appreciate the problems of extreme cold in Lithium Ion batteries (to say nothing of Lithium-taking Canadians).
I don’t think the high lattitudes are going to part with an EREV platform until EESTOR (or maybe hydrogen!!!) pans out (another major technology change, in other words).
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:13 pm)I’m afraid this market is pretty ambitious for GM, at least in North America. Clearly the subcompact market is where Hyundai/Kia has staked its claim, and they are very successfully running with it.
Lyle said in reference to this segment and the Aveo, “Although low in price, sales aren’t terrific and the car is not popular…” this is a relative statement, the price is low for GM, but not in relation to its competitors. The price point for GM to compete is $9,900. (The accent sells in Canada for $9,200USD, with 0% financing…hard to beat).
Hyundai accent gets a facelift itself soon (Verna everywhere else):
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SiaulFFIh1I/AAAAAAABzbs/u_Zf7J2Cj5A/s1600-h/Hyundai-Accent-Verna-13.jpg
Just having a clean-ish balance sheet doesn’t equal success here. And if you get much higher in the MSRP than you are throwing down against the Yaris and the Fit.
I think GM would be better served focusing on the compact/small sedan market before putting serious dollars behind this. Walk before you run, (imo)…unless they want to throw a pack in it and offer it as a BEV, Hyundai/Toyota/Honda won’t be offering one of those anytime soon (at least not in NA).
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Jul 28th, 2009 (9:13 pm)GM want to sell this small car like a hot cake? put the red light auto start stop and ultracapacitor to improve the fuel efficiency. fit and finish is very important too. I have the rental car G5 for 2 weeks. what a big disappointment about this car. cheap material, how can you compete with import small car? The sketches look good. good luck GM
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-4
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:14 pm)I better get Volt car I hate oil company use my money waste!
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:15 pm)“… instead of cloth?”
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Jul 28th, 2009 (9:18 pm)What if ESStor is real?
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+2
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:20 pm)It is clear that small cars are a thing of the immediate future.
Also, however good the mpg of a larger vehicle becomes (due to Voltec, strong hybrid or whatever), a small one will be better. It’s just physics.
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+3
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:27 pm)Question: Would 70+ kWh packs translate into 300-400 miles at 70 mph? With the air conditioning/heat on? And will it charge overnight? At most hotels?
Because unless it meets all those criteria–I’d rather have an EREV. Preferably with a 100 mile AER, but still an EREV. And I really doubt I’m the only one.
Besides, if you have 70 kWh, doesn’t that mean that the EREV platform will let you have a bigger car than a BEV? Personally, I don’t like huge SUVs. (Small cars are easier to park in Manhattan.) But most Americans do.
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+2
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:30 pm)I like small cars because that’s my taste. The smallest car that can do the work I have for it is what I’d like to have.
Plus, the easiest way to make a car more efficient is to make it smaller. So, if you can have your big car of acceptable efficiency, then I can have a small car of better efficiency.
The idea that small cars would be obsolete just because you could get an acceptable big car, well that just ignores a lot of people.
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:31 pm)Efficiency and cost, without sacrificing zippy handling?
I don’t see the advantages of big cars. Size for the sake of size is just a waste. I’d be all over those little European hatchbacks that can still tow a modest load — but I live in the USA, so we ship those cars over there and don’t sell them here.
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Jul 28th, 2009 (9:35 pm)I always thought that American car makers made their small cars as “something that you can drive until you can afford a real car” — meaning a bigger car.
Honda and Toyota started making real cars that split the difference, and so there are a lot of those cars have been purchased by my extended family over the years.
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:58 pm)Speaking of Viva… look you’re going to spend 20 bucks a month on paper paper towels anyway so…
HERE’S HOW TO ORDER:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwRISkyV_B8
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (9:59 pm)Don’t forget decent handling. One of the big attractions of a conventional small car is that they can be fairly nimble and fun to drive without breaking the bank, at least when compared to their big lumbering brethren.
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-7
Jul 28th, 2009 (10:02 pm)Holy Jesus Christ in a dump truck, Alex!
Where are you from?
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+2
Jul 28th, 2009 (10:09 pm)Crap, why do they keep renaming cars!? Why don’t they keep the Cobalt name. Great car, great name.
GM, please stop renaming your cars.
Ok maybe Aveo isn’t so great, but VIVA?
Come on. Why not name it SHAMWOW and have that Vince guy on TV sell them?
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-6
Jul 28th, 2009 (10:14 pm)Agreed. The name should appeal to all the “new’ Americans who came from south of the Rio Grande. I hope the gauges and controls are displayed in both English and Spanish. It will increase the marketability of the Viva.
Viva la Viva.
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+3
Jul 28th, 2009 (10:28 pm)If the “new” GM truly believes in the quality of their cars, they should offer a 10 year or 100,000 mile warranty on all their cars. Talk is cheap – let’s see GM back up its big talk with big action. If GM’s claims of improved quality are correct, an extended warranty would cost GM nothing. Of course, if their “quality” claims are just BS, it would bankrupt GM – again.
Atfer all, if GM doesn’t believe in their own quality, why should I ?
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Jul 28th, 2009 (10:32 pm)Well, according to DaveG’s rapidly declining battery pack pricing, if 70 kWh only gets you 250 miles at 70 mph with the A/c and radio blaring, wait another 2 years and you can probably get a 100kWh pack for the same price, lol.
I’m not saying it is real…or reasonable, but that kind of base commodity price, and wicked downward trendline would be radically destabilizing of the EREV platform.
Just thinking further out, and your reference of still wanting a 100 mile AER EREV over the 300-400 mil BEV of similar cost, I think big competition also comes from being hugely undercut by a 100 mile, 20 kWh BEV. You are talking about $1,800 pack (assuming todays $450/kWh reduced $90) chucked into a $6,000 Hyundai Accent frame…and them selling them at $9,999.
The Volt, with the pack (and related components) stripped out reasonably has a baseline starting cost north of $20,000…even if the pack is free (which is never will be), you are in different ballparks. That is the problem with ‘hella’ cheap battery packs (if that were a reality), the value gap widens because of the cost of the platform. (imo)
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+7
Jul 28th, 2009 (10:36 pm)What if the world really does end in 2012?
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+2
Jul 28th, 2009 (10:42 pm)I like small cars too. Small cars with big engines make be happy! This Chevy Viva with a 200hp super charged engine and a 6 speed manual could make me really consider it. Either that or a BEV with about 80-100 miles range for less than $20k.
I know, I’m dreaming on both accounts. ):-(
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Jul 28th, 2009 (10:42 pm)That is definitely a Cruze front end.
http://www.drivearabia.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/2010-chevrolet-cruze-1.jpg
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Jul 28th, 2009 (10:56 pm)Holy cow!! That Accent/Verna design frightens me! No way I want that bottom feeding sea creature lurking in my driveway! The Chevy Viva decidedly wins the looks contest, easily. As to meeting the price point, mileage performance and reliability of the Hyundai, TBD.
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Jul 28th, 2009 (10:57 pm)LauraM asks “Would 70+ kWh packs translate into 300-400 miles at 70 mph?”
—————————————————————-
70 kWh holds about as much energy as 2 gallons of gas, so what you’re asking is whether you can get 200 mpg. Probably not at 70 mph unless you have a very light vehicle with an almost abnormally low CdA. IOW maybe with an Aptera though that would be one very heavy Aptera.
If you want to replace oil as a transportation fuel at some point you’re going to have to use biofuels. You need only breakthrough — an at least one company GM has invested is claiming it has been made — and biofuels are a viable alternative to gasoline. And of course that means with biofuels you can have your SUV (though I understand you don’t want one).
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (10:59 pm)I think the genset part of E-REV takes care of the cold, no?
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Jul 28th, 2009 (11:01 pm)Statik,
Even if your speculation is true about very long range BEV’s it’d still leave room for human size vehicles and trucks to use the cheaper EREV platform – not necessarily their death. Even better it’d mean burning even less gasoline with the large people size cars and SUVs. No?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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Jul 28th, 2009 (11:02 pm)DITTO
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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Jul 28th, 2009 (11:04 pm)Maybe it winds up with a spring and skate key (just kidding!).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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-1
Jul 28th, 2009 (11:05 pm)I would hope so. The Fit has really nothing going for it except that it’s made by Honda. It isn’t that great to look at, doesn’t get stellar mileage for it’s class, isn’t the cheapest and is about the slowest car you can buy. A friend of mine finally got sick of life in the slow lane with no appreciable benefit and traded his on a Civic Si.
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Jul 28th, 2009 (11:07 pm)Since we’re betting, how about a wager on seeing biofuel at $2/gallon before we see $200/kWh. Not serious really but biofuels are promising.
What I find asinine about battery cost is that you’re essentially spending $15K on a container to hold less than a dollar of electricity. It’s like a fifty grand wine bottle.
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+2
Jul 28th, 2009 (11:23 pm)Your point about costs is well taken. I didn’t realize there was that much inherent cost to the Volt platform.
That said, then it’s actually lucky for me that batteries are expensive. (Well, sort of,–I’d much rather have everyone else in an electric car and breathe cleaner air than get my personal preference in a car..) But I, for one, would rather spend the $40,000 for the Volt as is, than $10,000 for the 300 mile BEV. But then again, I realize that most people don’t have that luxury.
However, I really think that regardless of battery price, EREVs will still have a role for the next ten or twenty years. People are going to take time to adjust to the idea of electric cars. And plenty of people don’t like the idea of buying new technology. And they’ll feel more comfortable in the Volt. And so will anyone who likes driving trips–at least until hotels start offering fast charging stations. Not everyone buys the $10,000 car. I can’t be the only one who’s willing to pay a substantial premium.
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (11:36 pm)Thank you for the information. Then I stand by what I originally said. i would definately go with the EREV. During many of my driving trips, we cover more than 200 miles in a given day. So even with a 70 kwh BEV, I’d need to rent a car for vacations. Or even weekend trips.
I agree that biofuels are a necessary contributer if we’re going to replace oil. Yes, BEVs are probably better for the environment, but biofuels can do things that BEVs can’t. The point is to find the best possible balance of inputs to maximize ultility while minimizing costs.
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Jul 28th, 2009 (11:46 pm)I think they should have called it The Iphone. Er, no wait, that won’t work. Shoot, just missed it.
Getting late (obviously).
Night,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (11:53 pm)They are sporty, four doors so easy access, and you can configure the seats in very convenient configurations.. lots of cargo space and legendary Honda reliability.. Honda hit a homerun with the Fit.. now if you want to talk Aveo, the dealers cant give these things away.
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Jul 28th, 2009 (11:55 pm)The question is, are they going to sell it for $10k, $15k or higher?
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+12
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:02 am)OK, lets look at how a 70kWh BEV would compare against a 16kWh EREV if batteries were 1/4 of the price they are today.
The CEO from CPI (the company that builds the Volt packs today) puts the Volt’s battery pack cost at $8K. He is also the one that predicts the cost going to 1/4 of what they are today in the next 5-10 years.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html
Specifically, he says:
• First … the ratio of end-of-life to beginning-of-life is 75%.
• Second, the AT application is sized for a 70% depth of discharge…
• Third …
• Fourth, a vehicle pack battery pack has non-cell costs such as a monitoring system.
All four of these items together justify a 2.5x premium for the AT application (or approximately $ 1,000/available kWh) …
From a historical perspective over the past 17-18 years the cost has come down by a factor of 15x. In the next 5-10 years we should be able to come down by an incremental 2-4x and we will have to do that to accelerate the penetration of the technology.
So this says that the Volt’s battery costs $8K ($1000/ available kWh x 8 available kWh). We can also use the figure of $500/total kWh, since he says the total to available ratio is around 50% (i.e. 75% of 70% from first 2 points above). That means a 70 kWh battery pack would cost around $35K today. This sounds about right, since we know the 53kWh Roadster battery pack costs Tesla around $23K, and that uses high volume consumer electronic chemistry.
Now if batteries were 1/4 of today’s prices in 6-8 years, then the Volt’s battery would cost around $2K and a 70kWh battery would cost around $9K.
We also know that the ICE range extender (ICE, radiator, exhaust, etc.), costs around $2K. Keep in mind that we are talking about the wholesale cost for GM, not the retail price you or I would pay.
So the Volt’s range extender and battery pack would cost a total of $4K, while the 70kWh battery pack would cost around $9K.
Bottom Line: If battery packs cost 1/4 of what they do now, the 70kWh BEV would still cost $5K more than an EREV-40.. Since BEVs have serious issues refueling for long trips, the EREV is the clear winner for me. I don’t think I’m alone here.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:26 am)First, we are already seeing ethanol competitive starting at around $2.50 a gallon, in the form of E10 and E15. So getting down to $2/gallon shouldn’t be too much of a stretch.
Second, When you talk about cost per kWh, you have to be very specific about what kWh figure you mean. The CEO of the company that builds the Volt battery pack today said it costs $1000/available kWh, and he made it very clear that the available kWh is only around 50% of the total kWh.
So if you want to talk about total kWh, then the price would be $500/total kWh today, dropping to $125/total kWh within the next 5-10 years (according to CPI). My personal guess is that it will be on the closer side of that range (6-8 years).
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+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:37 am)Sing it with me….
VIVA VIAGRA!!!!!
I couldn’t resist.
God Bless America!!!
http://www.americanbikinishop.com/images/patriotic/usa3lg.jpg
what? whaaaat??
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:38 am)Will it come with a call girl like he had. But I want to keep my tongue.
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-2
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:39 am)phukin Yoda maaaannn….
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+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:42 am)LauraM – Yes, I agree. All good points.
I’ll even go a few further.
• An EREV-40 will always be significantly less expensive than a comparabe BEV-250.
• An EREV-40 requires no additional new infrastructure.
• If all passenger vehicles were EREV-40s, and everyone used ethanol for the range extender, we would essentially eliminate gasoline.
• Fast charging a BEV-250 in 10 minutes is not safe. There is no safe way to make a 500,000 watt connection with rain or snow dripping all over the car. Technology won’t solve this. It’s simple physics.
• Battery swapping schemes aren’t viable because each battery pack must be customized to each type of vehicle in order to meet requirements for handling, crash safety, fault tolerance, etc..
For these reasons, I see EREVs as the primary vehicle type for the foreseeable future, not just a transition.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (12:49 am)That story sounds familliar…. maybe? could it be? the Volt concept?? To the almost jelly bean production.
(As an old(er) white guy) I think GM has a bunch of boring old white guys designing their cars with bow ties. I hope they got some new inovative blood in the design and development department ; ) And have the courrage to produce them.
As Grump said – Definately back the reliability claims with long warranties.
GM may have 9 lives but this one is the last for me. Go Volt!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:52 am)I think GM should just Punt on this model and sell it with the Volt batt pack and open the SOC to use up to 80% REAL to give it a minimum of 80MPC (Smaller lighter car) with a 5/50 warranty. Sell it as a simple commuter with my typical ghetto stripped down Trailer Park Maggot version but offer single individual product upgrades and not these damn friggin trim levels where you have to buy a bunchashit to get one thing in the trim you want.
AND NO ONSTAR!!!!!
That’s JMdHO! (just my Drunk humble opinion)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:35 am)With a real world 150 mile range the BEV is for me. For the occasional further range trip I would hire a range extender. EG:
http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm
If I was going to travel a long way each weekend I would probably buy one.
Hell, they even have one for CJS>
http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm
For everything on EV trailers see:
http://evmaine.org/html/ev_trailers.html
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:39 am)That’s what I say too.
NO plug, NO sale.
LJGTVWOTR
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (1:43 am)Most of the Canadian population is located close to the Southern border of Canada so experiences the same temperatures as United States , even Edmonton and Saskatoon have essentially the same temperatures as most of USA .
Where the temperatures are really different is in the far Southern US and the far North Canada .
Just so you know .
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-7
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:05 am)-7
Jul 29th, 2009 (3:40 am)+5
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:32 am)Viva is an old name in the UK, Vauxhall produced it in the 60s and 70s (Opel called it the kadett). This car seems to be based on the Vauxhall/Opel Corsa (although a little late, as the Corsa D was released in 2006) which is a good little car. If Ford do release the European Fiesta there could be some good competition between these two, especially if either side is smart enough to sell them with their (frankly excellent) diesel engines.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (5:29 am)don’t you think in 5 to 10 years the batteries will be able to deep cycle a lot better than they can now. I also read/heard somewhere (probably this site) that GM are already playing with packs that are 1/2 the size but deliver the same 40 miles by having deeper cycles and more density to each of the cells. On this basis alone, it would look like the price reduction is in line with expectations.
Further, in 6 to 8 years, we may have a completely different battery chemistry relying on nano technology, ultra capacitors, ESStor technology (though DaV8or might argue otherwise), or whatever… I would not limit my thinking to the current forms of battery technology.
For all our sakes, I hope the price does fall; and not just marginally.
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+6
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:08 am)The sport version of the Viva will be called the Bounty, the quicker picker upper.
=D~
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (6:48 am)“….I think GM has a bunch of boring old white guys designing their cars with bow ties. I hope they got some new inovative blood in the design and development department
And have the courrage to produce them.”
I agree, but with a caveat based on my discovery that Bob Boniface led the Opel Ampera’s design as well as the Volt’s….. It struck me when I learned this that GM senior management is very likely dictating certain features of Chevy designs (e.g., the double grill & the bow tie). And I understand why they do it for a car like the Viva (to identify it with the product line). But the double grill & Bowtie should NOT have been used on a car that clearly deserves to be set apart from the rest of the lineup! (Apart from its small ‘lightning’ insignia on the grill, the Opel Ampera doesn’t even remotely resemble the remaining Opel lineup.)
HEY GM: One of the best-looking, most distinctive American-made cars of the time was the 1982 Chevy Z-28 Camaro (it became the car used in the famed IROC races) …..AND THE BOW TIE, FAMILY STYLING & EVEN THE NAME “CHEVROLET” WERE NO WHERE TO FOUND ON THAT BEAUTIFUL CAR’S INTERIOR OR EXTERIOR!!!”
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (7:04 am)Well….the looks of the Viva are far, far better than the Aveo! If they stay true to the sketches, GM could move some metal with this design. Poor reputation from cars like the Aveo will be perhaps the most difficult hurdle to cross than even building the car they have shown us here at a profit. It will be difficult to make money off of this car with margins as tight as they are. The Koreans have the low end of this market sown up and the Japanese/Europeans have the higher priced small car market sown up. With that said, it is not impossible for a Detroit company to produce a competitive player in this field, but it is very difficult. They need something that stands out from the rest to garner people’s attention. A hybrid or an All-electric BEV would probably accomplish this better than anything. Sadly, I doubt GM has the money, resources, or even interest in doing that with all of the bigger fish they are frying at the moment. The Viva (as a normal gas driven car) may do OK for them, I just don’t think it is going to shake up the world.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (7:06 am)Finally, an awesome-looking small car made by GM.
I suppose ‘finally’ wasn’t the best word to use, because well… it won’t be in the US until 2011… but why???? If it’s available at the end of this year in other locations, why not here too? When are these car companies going to get it?
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+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (7:08 am)Dave, I want to thank you for your excellent condensation of this article — Dr Patil at CPI is a genuine authority & is probably largely responsible for winning the cell contract with GM.
I would only add that “AT” in your post means “automotive traction” and that the 3rd item in your list of four above is “Third… the AT market has more stringent requirements on the validation of the individual cells”
Thanks again for this insightful, accurate and highly credible post! Viva la EREV!!!
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+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (7:16 am)Excellent points Dave!
i think many people advocating BEVs are not looking at the problem of infrastructure. It’s huge!
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+4
Jul 29th, 2009 (7:23 am)And the 4-Wheel drive version will be called the BRAWNY.
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+1
Jul 29th, 2009 (7:28 am)We read you loud and clear Alex, wherever you’re from!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (7:29 am)Very patriotic!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (7:48 am)For any needing a fresh look, here’s “Boniface” studio’s Opel Ampera again….
http://www.netcarshow.com/opel/2012-ampera/1024×768/wallpaper_02.htm
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:12 am)DaveG said:
We also know that the ICE range extender (ICE, radiator, exhaust, etc.), costs around $2K. Keep in mind that we are talking about the wholesale cost for GM, not the retail price you or I would pay.
So the Volt’s range extender and battery pack would cost a total of $4K, while the 70kWh battery pack would cost around $9K.
Bottom Line: If battery packs cost 1/4 of what they do now, the 70kWh BEV would still cost $5K more than an EREV-40.. Since BEVs have serious issues refueling for long trips, the EREV is the clear winner for me. I don’t think I’m alone here.
=========================
Dave, the problem here is that GM says it can’t sell the Cruze for the same price as the Cobalt and make money, it has to ’start’ in the upper teens, and be decently equipped in the 20s.
I have no problem with you saying that under your ‘20% pack cost’ scenario the Volt’s pack is 2K and the 70 kWh BEV is 9K. But you are grossly underestimating the base line cost of the Volt, or any small ICE sedan built by GM…before electric components (let alone the cost of EREV components), it is certainly much more than the Cruze considering all factors (sans pack).
The problem is the same, other car companys can buid and sell entire cars at $10,000 with simple, straight forward ICE systems. The BEV setup is easier and cheaper (pre-pack) to build than a ICE, so even at 9K per pack your still looking at BEV in your scenario around $17,000 when they are in full production. Even the Cruze would be in the red at that price point, before we even get to the Volt’s EREV architecture pre-pack.
(Again, all of these assumptions based on a very ambitous lithium pack price structure…I am in no way saying any of this happens, just chewing the fat on a ‘what if scenario’ because it is entertaining)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:26 am)If an electric car can do, lets say 400 miles on a charge and your planned trip is 450 miles, after the 400 miles what do you do to finish your trip? Go in a motel just for fifty miles left and hope you can plug your car in?
Not for me and or for most people. In reality people want a car that’s is not so limited in range unless it can recharge in minutes instead of hours.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:31 am)GM sells this car now in China as a Buick, it has good quality interior materials and is quiet and looks to be a quality car overall. There is also a Volt sized Buick car sold here too , a sharp looking one I might add , typical Buick quality , (Chinese regard the Buick as a luxury car) The fit and finish is excellent and the interior materials are upper level quality.
The way I see it the auto companies (in United States and Canada) want to move the customers into more profit making larger cars so they make the smaller cars as cheap looking as possible so that people won’t buy them .
While in China nearly all cars are about the same size as the Volt , with a few exceptions , and most come with an engine of 1.8 liters or smaller (because of taxes on larger engines) .
If the auto companies want to sell cars in China must put a luxury interior in small cars because if they dont they wont sell any as the European made cars put quality in the cars that they sell in China .
Americans should tell the auto makers that they want smaller cars to have luxury interiors in all cars , not just top of the line models.
Make the companies built the cars that you want to own and drive or go out of business.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:39 am)DonC said:
70 kWh holds about as much energy as 2 gallons of gas, so what you’re asking is whether you can get 200 mpg.
===============
/your killing me, 2 gallons is going farther than a 70 kWh pack now?
Lets have a little give and take shall we?
What is the Volts AER with only using 8 kWh under that scenario then?
Even assuming a very ambitious 40MPG, at 2 gallons of gas, thats 80 miles range total on 70 kWh. Assuming the BEV only uses 75% of that pack, thats 52 kWh. The Volt only uses 8 kWh, so by your standard, under similar conditions, the Volt gets 15% of 80 miles range, thats a whopping 12 miles AER… make a case that justifies even the EREVs existence there?
Just basic financial math makes the Volt obsolete under that metric. The cost of 8 kWh energy is about a $1 today, and if that only gets 12 miles, that means the Volt’s electric mileage, on a cost basis, is akin to a large SUV or pickup truck.
I think you just made a case against any form of electric propulsion being adopted by the masses…and I also have to say that people building 70 kWh electric cars in the future (and now) are hella bad at getting results given your projections.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:44 am)LauraM asked
Question: Would 70+ kWh packs translate into 300-400 miles at 70 mph?
Let’s do it by the numbers. At 30, 50, and 70 mph a car with the frontal area and weight of the Volt will require 0.11, 0.17, and 0.26 kwh/mile if the car is absolutely perfect otherwise (nothing for losses, and nothing for accessories, and assuming level ground with uniform speed). These values come from computing the forces of rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag on a car with the Volt’s frontal area and weight.
Those Kwh/mile values would give this perfect Volt on a perfect road a range at 30, 50, and 70 mph of 75, 47, and 30 miles.
A real Volt (which will use accessories and will have energy losses in transmission) may do about two-thirds as well. (I think this is a realistic estimate, but still just an estimate.) That would give a real Volt these ranges, if 8 kwh are consumed, of
50 miles at 30 mph
30 miles at 50 mph
15 miles at 70 mph
(The first two are easy to remember).
These numbers are more-or-less consistent with GM statements to date.
So if the battery pack could be 4x that of the Volt, a realistic BEV range at 70 mph is about 60 miles, increasing to about 200 miles at 30 mph. So a Volt with 4x the battery (no space left for dog to fit in
) will not meet LauraM’s requirements.
Of course you all may wish to check my calculations. Maybe they are wrong at some point and need revision.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:49 am)No matter what, there will always be a need for gas/diesel only cars UNTIL a battery can be recharged in 5 minutes at a roadside station for the same price a tank of gas would cost. Even if the price of a battery comes down to the point where it is cheaper than a gas engine and transmission, few will buy it unless they can re-charge it quickly on a long trip.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:50 am)Honda made a profit last quarter !
AFAIK GM is still losing billion$ of the taxpayers dollars EVERY QUARTER !
Nice new GM. Very Nice.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:52 am)I have it from goode authority from ancient Central American stone cuttings that DaV8or’s query about the world ending in 2012 might be on the mark. Per Eeestor or Eore or whatever we need not look but once behind the curtain over in OZ and see the fraud perpetrated. Reminds me of an adventure…
Regards! Higgins and the Lads
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:53 am)Please refrain from using the words Quality and Buick in the same sentence !
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:53 am)That will make all Americans stand to attention.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:53 am)Grump. GM DOES offer a 100,000 mile warranty. Second best in the industry behind Chrysler that offers a LIFETIME warranty.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:53 am)As I listen to Elvis singing “Viva Las Vegas…”, I am wondering: Did GM finally hire some great automotive stylists, or did they just fire the old fart who was keeping the ones they already had down?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:56 am)Coming up with a small car ‘hit’ is similar to coming up with a pop-music hit: It’s seldom just a matter of mechanics. My wife (who is an expert in such things), tells me that the Fit is “cute” (and she almost barfed when she saw the Aveo).
It’s mainly an art of balance. You have to do a lot of things right. If you can get good utility, and good mileage, and good styling, and good several other things, most buyers will forgive it for not being the best available at any one thing.
There is a hard-to-define rightness about a small car (or pop music) ‘hit.’ The reason this is more true than for a larger car is that largeness gives you more to work with (consider styling for a suit vs for a really nice bikini). Size is also a purchase factor in it’s own right.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:57 am)Chevy Cobalt is a horrific car. Step away from your bong dude.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:57 am)Results are what matters here. And I suspect you wouldn’t have a Viva in your driveway if you have that kind of reaction to the Accent, heeh.
As a company, Hyundai is a sixth the size of GM, but small cars is what it does, and despites its small market share in NA (4%), it covers GM in pwnsauce here:
Hyundai Accent/Kia Rio June Sales:
10,607
Cheverolet Aveo June Sales:
2,217
As for mileage/reliability. Hyundai has a best in class warranty, new vehicle coverage for five years or 60,000 miles, and powertrain coverage for the first 10 years or 100,000 miles. There’s also a seven-year rust warranty, five years of 24-hour roadside assistance and a one year replacement parts and accessories warranty. 8/80 on emissions.
Mileage is 26/35
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
/if you want a new car, and you don’t want to spend much money up front or during its lifetime, this is your choice…and that is what the subcompact market is all about
Fair disclosure: My business has 2007 Hyundai Accent as a delivery/runabout car. 100,000 on it, probably spend about $600 so far in maintenance. (it does not get treated kindly, lol)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (8:59 am)No Volt use oil need more money for Volt less battery love oil.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:03 am)… well, half of them anyway.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:05 am)Bow Tie is for old men only. The Volt is an OLD MAN car. No Flash. Plain. Dullsville. The Volt IS your father’s oldsmobile. Just deal with it.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:05 am)Much of America will have the same temperature problem, and will need the range-extender as a source of heat. I mentioned Canada specifically only because that’s where Statik is from.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:07 am)What a big group of comments. After reading them, I must say I agree with everything everyone said. Completely, unabashedly and without one doubt.
For myself, I will stick with the EREV concept. I see it as the only workable solution for the next several decades. It only improves as the best choice as better, cleaner fuels are developed and batteries improve and get cheaper to produce. That’s not to say I would not purchase a BEV for around town and short trips. BEVs are appealing in many ways. Just not what you need for longer trips or unplanned driving over the battery’s limit. IMO.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:10 am)I bet this little puppy gets better mileage than that massive 1.4L Volt engine. Hopefully, one day GM will get it right and dump this total crap motor. This is a transplanted Cruze four-banger. It is NOT in anyway shape or form optimized for Electric Generation. Another reason the Volt is a compromised (not optimized) vehicle from the start. I would avoid this first gen model like the plague.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:10 am)True enough.
But lets still keep this in perspective.
In February in California the Captain ‘might’ see temps first thing in the morning in the ’40’s’ right?
It isn’t every day but we can and have seen -40 (same temp both systems) at that time of year.
I DO want to do my part to ’save the world’ but a BEV would be hard pressed to get down the driveway at that temperature.
The Volt would almost immediately start the genset but would be able to go.
EREV or ICE only.
BTW… In the summer it DOES get warm!
28c in my living room last night.
Very few people here have home A/C, and I’m not one of them… sigh.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:12 am)Point about the price of the cars aside, there are still other reasons why a BEV would not eliminate the market for E-REV. Price is not the only problem with batteries. As mentioned above range anxiety will still be an issue until we have a battery geometry that is not only cheap, but can rapidly charge, and charge stations have wide availability. Will this be the case in 6-8 years? Perhaps. It is possible depending on how committed we are to electric. Until we have this, E-REV remains the only platform that allows you to primarily drive electric while not sacrificing any range advantages of ICE cars.
So while the BEV may soon become cheaper, the customers may still want options depending on their lifestyle.
On the issue of will the price of the batteries cost that much? 6-8 years is a long time. Dave presented some excellent points. I will take your $100 in 6-8 years.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:15 am)I believe the street name for that is “Hot Rod”!
It’s something I hope our Voltec engineers have in store once the Volt is in the wild.
Volt SS, Chevy Solstice SS, convertable cruise SS..
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:16 am)Of course GM can’t use that song for the car since VIAGRA already has dibbs on it…. Or could they?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:17 am)The sport model of the Fit sells at over $17,000 USD. It’s extremely popular. If cost is your only option, there is already a wide-open field out there, as many have pointed out; but Honda actually turned a (minuscule) profit this past quarter (compared to across the board losses for most other makers).
The trick for GM is going to be finding the point at which basic attraction meets cost for the best sales. No, I have no specific suggestion other than “do a lot of things right” in the engineering and styling, to end up with a car people want to buy. I wish them luck.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:17 am)Eh? The Ampera has very similar styling to the Insignia and upcoming Astra I. Once the Ampera arrives the facelifted Corsa D will be out as well, and the whole lineup will have a similar look. I think maybe you’re forgetting that we’ve seen the Ampera a LOT earlier than we would a normal car.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:21 am)Xiaowei1,
Lots of good points here.
For the deep cycle issue, EREVs have 2 issues:
• battery life
• spare capacity
For example, if you live on top of a mountain, then you’ll start your trip fully charged (80% SOC for the Volt), and then use regenerative braking all the way down. Similarly, if the ICE is running (30% SOC for the Volt), and you’re at the bottom of a mountain, then you need the extra power from the battery for accelerating or traveling fast uphill. For these reasons, a BEV would probably require less spare capacity than an EREV.
As for battery size and weight, I believe this will decrease at a slower pace than battery price. Elon Musk (CEO of Tesla), says that historically, battery density has improved at a rate of 9% per year. This means that the battery size and weight would be cut in half every 8 years.
As for new battery technology, I believe A123 already uses nano technology, and that will probably increase in the years to come.
For EEStor, I believe the extreme purity levels required to produce these devices will make them very expensive. As a comparison, silicon computer chips are made from sand, so the basic raw material is literally dirt-cheap, but silicon chips and silicon solar cells are expensive because of the high purity levels required.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:27 am)Thanks for the feedback from the other side of the pond!
I drove a few cars the summer of 07 when we visited there and we were taken by the power and effiency of the new diesels.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:32 am)“Total crap motor?” What do you base this statement on?
This engine, in fact, is one of the highest tech engines in the world.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/09/gm-chevy-volt-engine-flint-michigan.php
Even Fisker Automotive has chosen the turbo version to power their new EREV.
http://earth2tech.com/2008/11/21/fisker-picks-gm-for-karma-engine/
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+3
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:34 am)No-name is trying a new tack. He’s sticking with a name for more than one post. Don’t be fooled. He’s still showing up with different screen names to undo negative votes.
(So far) Jack Hammer = Johan Krapowsky = Jack Russel
IMO
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:36 am)Yep, the Corvette and Camaro are definately old guys cars…
Thank goodness my kids tell me I’m an old guy!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:39 am)Very well put!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:42 am)hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:43 am)It seems Jack is our under bridge dwellers name of the moment.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:44 am)LOL! A troll with size issues… that’s FUNNY!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:46 am)Israeli company looks to use the Volt concept, though with a turbine engine. If you can iron out the demand peaks and valleys, a turbine will probably win over a piston engine. More reliable, flexible fuel, lighter weight, no cooling, and better efficiency at target RPM (oh…and more expensive). In variable demand they become less fuel efficient though. But when mated with a electrical storage system which allows frequent charge-discharge cycles to iron on demand….maybe.
http://wot.motortrend.com/6534415/technology/israeli-start-up-creates-turbine-powered-hybrid-from-a-toyota-prius/index.html
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+2
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:50 am)Small cars can be a hit, if they are cool enough to appeal to people. Look at the Mini. Fast, handles awesome, is a huge hit. They also hold their resale value very well.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:50 am)I think you totally misinterpreted my point. I wasn’t suggesting a standard vehicle with an ICE might get 200 mpg, I was just pointing out that while a 70 kWh battery pack is very expensive and heavy it doesn’t hold all that much energy — in fact it holds about the same amount of energy as you’d get in 2 gallons of gas. (And yes, the Volt presumably gets its 40 mile range on the energy equivalent of a quarter of a gallon of gas). The logic here is that it’s not reasonable to expect to go 400 miles at 70 mph using a 70 kWh pack. Another way to say this is that it’s unreasonable to expect to use only 125 wh/mile when you’re going 70 mph.
You can’t make the comparison you’re making between ICE ranges and EV ranges because EVs are more efficient, or, stated differently, ICEs are very energy inefficient — the vast majority of the energy they produce never gets to the wheels. Remember the Volt goes 40 miles on a quarter of a tank of gas, so the mpg on a straight energy basis would be about 80 mpg if you count the energy in the entirety of the pack or 160 mpg if you just count the amount of kWh used. But getting 80 mpg, or even 160 mpg for that matter, which is possible for a small car going at relatively low speeds, doesn’t translate into getting 200 mpg at 70 mph.
As for “making the case against any form of electric propulsion being adopted by the masses”, there is a reason why we haven’t seen EVs, and that reason is that it’s very difficult to make the numbers work. At the moment there is very little possibility that it will work absent government incentives.
Also note that an effective long range BEV would need a “battery” with a higher energy density to weight ratio than anything available at the moment. Something like a lithium-air at 13kWh/kg or EESTOR’s capacitor. Even putting costs aside, with current batteries the extra weight for the large pack exacts too large an energy penalty at lower speeds.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (9:57 am)To drive a BEV across Canada one would have to be VERY resourceful (and lucky!)
There are many several hour stretches across the country where there is a road and trees or prairie.
Even if there IS a town nearby I can all but guarantee there is no public charging station there.
Yes, you ‘might’ if you were extremely charming be able to talk someone into letting you plug in. How inconvenient is THAT when you still have 3000km to go to Vancouver?
BUT… they will have a gas station.
EREV is the only way I can even consider an electric car.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:03 am)This was posted late yesterday so I thought I’d cross post so Phil got some credit for following the site:
Phil Colley with GM Reply:
July 28th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
PS, still haven’t announced it yet
But you guys will certainly be some of the first to know when we do. And you’re probably right, maybe if we gave statik a little more flack sometimes, he wouldn’t send us novels for questions during the webchats 
[Reply]
Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet Reply:
July 28th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Still some surprises left then. Lots of chatter about that MPG #, and thought I might get at it vama marga (left-handed). Worth a shot.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
I still think it’s really neat that the GM people continue to surf this spot.
Be well,
Tagamet
PS Nice to see NZDavid posting too!
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:06 am)Dave, I’ve read this article before and I don’t think he’s saying that the Volt battery pack costs $8K is correct. I think he’s saying that the cost is more like $11K to $12K.
He says that the cost of a battery pack is roughly $500 per available kWh. But he expressly says this pricing is based on the application using 70% of the pack. If you apply these numbers to the Volt’s 16 kWh pack, you get $11,200.
You’re confusing his assumptions about what percentage of the pack will be used with what GM is actually going to use in the Volt.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:17 am)I LIKE my not all that big but maybe a bit lumbering Malibu.
It’s comfortable, reliable and gets about the same mileage as my wifes Subaru.
I have owned all kinds of cars over the years, ‘72 Datsun 1200 (first car!), ‘78 Capri, ‘80 Dodge Colt (mitsu mirage), ‘88 Calais, ‘87 Taurus, 87′ Toy pickup, ‘79 Park avenue, ‘95 Neon, ‘97 Land Rover Discovery, ‘02 Subaru, and of course the ‘98 Malibu. (I might have missed a couple)
The point is, although you are right that small cars DO handle very well for their size, they also ride rough. For me the midsize Malibu is a good choice, and the Volt will be an adjustment for me.
Although I bet my wife will LOVE the size of the Volt.
Like all things in life there are compromises to be made, and it’s crazy to say that one size should fit all.
(There is a political system for that sort of thing.)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:17 am)Right. I wonder how many Fits Honda will sell between now and 2011?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:19 am)More points:
You think that rain and snow are impossible to engineer around? How about a roof? Almost all gas stations already have them. You can have electronic communication to make sure the battery is receiving the coulombs of electricity being output by the charger, if the car stops receiving the electricity, it tells the charger to shut off. There are other ways to make it safe. Plug the car in, then hit the button to start the energy flow. There are already systems that can crank that much juice that fast so it’s not a matter of inventing anything.
About E10-E15 (10-15% ethanol) costing $2.50. That’s because they are taking money out of taxes to subsidize ethanol production. If you want to compare apples to apples. Compare the cost of E85 or E100 (right now more like $2.75 where I’m at) with no government subsidies. Even Brazil using the much more efficient source – sugar cane – with much more efficient production methods can’t make it as cheap as oil (they are only oil independent because they have their own heft oil reserves, they really don’t use that much ethanol, at least not as much as gasoline). And ethanol would be even more expensive if oil were to go up because the whole production (farming and manufacturing) process is highly oil dependent (uses almost as much oil as it replaces). Corn ethanol in the US was just Bush’s plan to use the energy crisis to appease his Republican cronies in Iowa and the farmer lobbyists. (for the record, I am a registered Republican but even I can’t deny that)
As far as when EREVs will become obsolete, interesting question. The fact is that even with a 300 mile AER from a BEV, there is still no way to go more than 150 miles away from home unless you have quick charging stations. No one wants to drive 300 miles (5 hours at 60 mph) and then spend the night in a hotel while it charges (it still wouldn’t even be half full in the morning). It all depends on the infrastructure.
This is one time when a temporary government subsidy could be useful. Just like the digital converters that the government offered “coupons” for, or cash for clunkers, the government could offer $5,000 or something for quick charge consoles to be set up (maybe between Jan 1 2013 – Jan 1 2014 when most of the automakers will be building EVs). Grocery stores, Wal Marts, hotels, gas stations, apartment complexes etc. could afford quick chargers and it would give people much more incentive to go electric when they could travel with them. So unless that happens, for anyone who needs to travel (outside sales etc.), EREVs will still be the only option.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:21 am)Yup.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:23 am)If EEStor is real I will faint out cold.
Once I wake up, I’ll be very happy to hear it!
I still hope but don’t much believe.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:27 am)Not to rehash old stuff (we do that a lot here), but what about owning a 300mile BEV, that, in the rare instance u need to tavel across the country, you rent a range-extender-trailer? And these already exist, we’ve all seen the photos, etc, but i’m thinking of something more compatible to say a Volt-like car.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:27 am)Yeah, hi David!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:28 am)Also another cool way to beef up demand for EVs is to build quick chargers at Rest Areas along the freeways. They are already right there where people need them while they’re on their long haul, and already have electricity to them. I imagine it would cost about $200 billion to install all of them (assume each quick charger costs $1,000,000 and we need 200,000 of them around the country), but afterwards it would save the country so much in oil costs (we are spending about $2 billion a day in oil so this would only be the equivalent of about 3.5 months worth of oil costs).
Of course big oil will never let it happen.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:29 am)NZ david.. i should have read your post before i posted above. We are on the same wavelength.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:31 am)I saw more Minis on the way home last night than I have ever seen in one day in LA. Something is definitely happening.
If the car is cool enough, you can also sell it for enough to make money. People seem to be quite happy to pay over $25K for a Cooper S.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:34 am)Are you saying 70KWH usable engergy, or just the size of the pack?
Volt = 8kwh usable = 40 miles AER
A 70Kwh car = 70/8 = 8.75 times the range of a Volt or 350miles.
To use Bob Boniface’s words, I don’t see what all the fuss is about.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:37 am)Not sure about your calc’s RB. All i can rebut with, is that GM said the Volt would get 40miles at highway speeds. So maybe they are talking 55mph, but i was hoping for 70mph.
Ahhh, if we only had some real-world data (I’m looking at you guys at the GM proving grounds)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:39 am)I am going to bet that the small car you see above is designed by one of the “Seven” college students GM hired a few years back for their “Design of tomorrow” targeted for the younger croud like the Scion clicks. I think they were originally tasked to model a “Shell” for the Hydrogen Skateboard. They had similar design styles like this.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:41 am)>> Will it come with a call girl like he had. But I want to keep my tongue.
CJS, it could have been worse, she could’a left his tongue intact and bit something else.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:41 am)Canada is colder than the US.
But your beer has more alcohol in it, so Yay!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:45 am)C’mon now, let’s not get short about this.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:51 am)NAPOLEAN!!!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:54 am)The Viagra is for the other half!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
TEN HUT!!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (10:56 am)I’m excited about all the battery technology I read about, however before I personally by a BEV i need:
1) A 250mile range min, even at -20 degrees and 70mph
2) Charge in 8hours max
3) Cost $40K max
Until these criteria are met, I’ll be driving ICE’s then EREV’s.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:02 am)A small car is great if you are not married or married with only one child. After having that second child a small car suddenly becomes too small for all the necessities you have to carry along on out-of-town trips to the in-laws or on vacation. I will grant you that a very small car like the Chevy Aveo is capable of handling a good bit of stuff as compared to a Chevy Traverse CUV. But the Traverse can carry more and pull more weight behind it also. It just all depends on your needs. I am not one to think very many people who drive the largest SUVs really need all that space. Most don’t. Many of the owners of those large SUVs have misconceptions as to why they think the need such a vehicle.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:05 am)Cute. Very cute…….
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:07 am)Nix on the Spanish part, Grump. We have too much of that now. If they want to come up here, let them come legally and then learn our language, etc. We should not change ourselves to suit them. Period.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:13 am)Just think of the wine bottle as a really expensive bottled water that you can refill almost endlessly. Come to think of it, you’re right – it’s asinine (lol).
PS The Aztecs are right about doomsday, so we really better get an early edition Volt!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:13 am)Thanks for the link, Nasaman. That is some of the best pictures I have seen of a very distinctive vehicle. I don’t think the Volt’s split grille stands out as much as the other Chevrolet vehicles being put forth. But, yes, I would prefer a more distinctive look to the Volt. Fisker Karma maybe?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:16 am)Enough that I bet GM wishes they were sales of their cars.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:18 am)It looks good and I do like the front end of it and on the Cruze. But I wish GM could come up with a better name. They could ask us to suggest some. Or reach back in their history and pull one out and reuse it. Just not Viva.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:23 am)DaveG
Although all your points are factually true, the likelihood of all cars being converted to ethanol in the foreseeable future is really remote (imo). For starters, clunkers will out-live all of us (look at Cuba). The institutional inertia of moving away from gasoline is another mountain to climb (or crawl around). I do believe that the technology will be accepted, but just at an order of magnitude more slowly. Besides, the Aztecs said we only have a few more years….(just kidding).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:37 am)Thank you for your comments. You are correct in many of your assessments. GM hopefully will finally get the message of putting quality into every vehicle they build – here or overseas.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:40 am)Jack Russel? Does that mean he is a dog?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:43 am)You’ve missed drive train losses. At higher speeds these would be considerably larger than the losses attributable to rolling resistance, and they exist at all speeds.
We have the actual watts per mile for the Tesla. At 70 mph it uses 300 wh/mile. The Volt will be heavier and its cross-section will be smaller, which would use more watts per mile, but its Cd should be lower and its drive train losses smaller, which means fewer watts per mile. So on balance using 300 wh/mile isn’t a bad SWAG.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:45 am)I wonder what the exhaust tailpipe looks like.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:47 am)Ditto…………
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:29 pm)Already, who started this thread hijack? heeh
For the record, I have reviewed everyone’s comments and unfortunately I have determined that I am right.
“i reject your reality and substitute my own”
http://thetvlegion.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/mythbusters1.jpg
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:33 pm)/flack jacket on Alex
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:52 pm)Sane regulations on legal immigration would be a good start toward allowing people to come in legally and on the terms of the host-country. Quotas that are a small fraction of the natural economically-driven migration are just going to be broken, as they are every day.
But no politician wants to take the positions necessary to actually solve that problem. One sure-fire solution would be that we should make crossing the border legally easy enough that there is no incentive to do it illegally for those who are just seeking work. That would solve the problem of illegal immigration (’cause it would all be legal), but I would be beyond surprised if the opponents of illegal immigration would accept it.
So, the status quo is just going to continue, until those who are involved can no longer afford it.afford it.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:57 pm)Spark is a brilliant name for smaller EV (or EREV) than the Volt. I’d hate to see it used up on an ICE vehicle.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (12:59 pm)I like the typical small-car ride.
I once test-drove a 1990s Chevy Lumina, and I took it off my list because it hit a manhole cover and I couldn’t feel the thunk in the seat of my pants. I felt like I was driving a couch, not a car — and I was afraid I’d be an inattentive driver if I bought the car.
But this is taste again. I’m glad you like the Malibu!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:09 pm)I loved my Jetta TDI — it was torquey, smooth, efficient, and fun to drive. Too bad it was made by Volkswagen, though. It wasn’t my father’s Volkswagen inside or out, but it sure spent as much time off the road for repairs as his old VW Bus.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:15 pm)You should read up on the Chinese Buicks. GM sells them with higher trim levels there than they do here, and I’ve heard that a Buick minivan is considered a kind of high-end corporate limousine.
Since minivans are mostly family vehicles here, though, I imagine that those high trim levels probably wouldn’t sell very to people who expect to find cheerios in the seats.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:31 pm)Based on precisely no knowledge whatsoever. Too bad we don’t have someone from one of the battery research labs on this site. One of the non-academic labs would be best. Unfortunately they probably wouldn’t be able to say much. Be nice to hear speculation from someone that actually took a Physics course.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (1:55 pm)A fair question.
The rehashing is part of what is cool about this group!
At todays prices a 300 mile BEV is a non starter, even if they could build it I couldn’t afford it. I don’t WANT that much battery in my EREV anyway the 16kw or perhaps in a few years 32kw battery pack and the GENSET will get me where I need to go using very little if any gas day to day.
Whether a range extender trailer is a good idea really comes down to the person and their lifestyle. If you only do a longish trip once or twice a year and you don’t pull a camper for said trip, then maybe the rented trailer generator could work for you.
Personally I do my best to get out of town a couple times a month at least with several 1200km round trips to the in-laws place throughout the year. I want my genset handy so will stick with an EREV (Volt!) for the forseeable future.
I DO see how a longer range BEV could work around town though.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:10 pm)I definately like a softer ride as I get a few years older.
My old Capri rode like a buckboard but it really carved the corners. The difference is that I don’t usually drive like that anymore.
Driving down the local concrete freeway in my son’s sentra is much like going to the carnival! The little thing bounces all over the place.
I didn’t realize the road was that bad… and I drive it everyday!
I do agree with you on efficency though, the Sentra burns less gas than my car.
Here’s hoping the Volt can give us the best of both worlds!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:20 pm)My problem is that I’m not buying a Korean car, or any other import. Including an Aveo. So GM’s decision to build (assemble?) this car here is a plus for me. My wife is probably going to get the Volt, but I could see one of these for the same use you have for the Hyundai. Assuming that the gas mileage is competetive.
My S-10 can’t run forever, and I’m not holding my breathe waiting to see a super efficient mini-pickup, as much as I would love to have one.
If it costs a little more, so be it. I can pay that much dues to try to do my bit for the balance of payments.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:21 pm)It’s a classic chicken and egg scenario.
The problem I see with your plan is not the vision.
The problem is convincing somebody to put their political career on the line over 200 Billion dollars which will NOT be well utilized for several years post system install because there are very few electric cars.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:39 pm)Out-live all of us?? I don’t know how old y’all are but I expect a good 80 more years out of this body with the medical tech that will be around in the future (even with current tech I very well could live that long, but then again I’m probably the youngest whippersnapper on this blog).
In any event the average lifespan of a US car is 17 years (standard fleet turnover). A fair number are brought to Latin America afterward but this won’t have a major effect.
I’d wager it wouldn’t take all that long to convert the majority of US gas stations stations to E10, with a gradual transition to E85 as more new flex fuel vehicles are produced.
Whether this makes more sense than just trying to have a very small petroleum usage is up for debate. Making a bunch of nuclear plants/wind farms to fuel ever larger batteries should make oil usage small enough that it won’t matter much for EREV passenger autos. HOWEVER, there’s gotta be something done about large trucks, and it’s there that biofuels might shine.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:47 pm)Will this be the “small car” that GM promised to build in the US?
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:51 pm)http://www.keiths.ca/
LOVE the Amber!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:53 pm)First, I would say that none of us here represent the average car buyer, since we are way too passionate about this stuff.
Second, the idea of a rented range extender trailer – I can see how it might work, but I don’t the the average Joe will ever go for it. Most people want less complexity in their lives.
Besides, with EREVs, you can use the ICE to warm the battery when its really cold outside. In other words, EREVs work in all climates.
Also, if I forget to plug in an EREV, it still runs on gas. Considering my typical frame of mind when I get home from work, I think I would be way more likely to forget to plug in one night than forget to buy gas once a month or so.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (2:59 pm)omnimoeish says You think that rain and snow are impossible to engineer around? How about a roof? Almost all gas stations already have them.
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Right. I’m driving through freezing rain and it’s stuck to my car, dripping all over the place. Now I pull in to a fast charging station with a roof. So what? I still have ice and snow all over my car.
We live in a real world. Charging a BEV-250 in 10 minutes will never be safe in all weather conditions.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:00 pm)300 or 400 mile range is meaningless if I can’t refuel in under a few minutes. It makes 400 miles my stopping point, not my refueling point. EREV still the way to go here (refuel and move on).
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:04 pm)Our friend Islander wants to get ‘excited’ about the look of his car, GREAT!
Get a Camaro! it’s HOT and this middle aged white guy thinks it looks fantastic.
I for one think the Volt looks a whole lot like a 5 door hatchback.
Since that’s what it is I have no problem with that. It’s also the reason it resembles the prius and insight and for that matter the MB R-Class and BMW X6. All are reasonably practical cars. (The last two could be practical if you were Brad Pitt…wonder if Angie sends him to Home Depot???)
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:06 pm)DonC says But he expressly says this pricing is based on the application using 70% of the pack.
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WRONG. He says:
• First … the ratio of end-of-life to beginning-of-life is 75%.
• Second, the AT application is sized for a 70% depth of discharge…
You can’t cherry-pick one or the other. You need to use both. 75% of 70% is 50%.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:19 pm)GM has struggled in this space for, well… ever!
They had the rebadged Suzuki Swift back in the 80’s and 90’s, Sprint, Firefly, Metro and it was a good competitor in it’s day.
The design looks good to me in a sketch build a good FUN SAFE reliable small car that the kids LIKE. Take a page from Toyota (Scion) and make it easily ‘customizable’ work out a deal with stereo companies so they can ‘pick’ their sound system, offer multiple shiny wheel packages etc…
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:26 pm)A YAPPY one!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (3:51 pm)DonC says “So on balance using 300 wh/mile isn’t a bad SWAG.”
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Presumably Tesla released this value for steady 70 mph speed on level ground with no accessories. The ideal value for the Volt under these circumstances (from my post above) is 260. Allowing 15% for drivetrain losses, which is a reasonable guess, gives 299 wh/mile.
So the SG is about equal to your SWAG. Nice work.
But, turn on the AC, add some speed ups and slow downs, add some hills, and one gets a more realistic estimate maybe another 20% higher.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:43 pm)My wife WILL NOT consider a BEV. Next case.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:46 pm)My goodness, you ARE young (good for you), but I’ll take the bet and would love to lose it. Just leave the money to my surviving family. If you’re worried about trucks, consider airplanes.
I never HAVE accepted that 17 year model because it’s a bi-modal curve. Many people trade in at 2 or 3 years and many others wait decades – and when THOSE are sold, they are bought by another person likely to drive the wheels off.
JMO,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS!
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:51 pm)Maybe I should send my yappy little Jack Russell over to check him out. He’s a pretty tough little guy. Just as soon nip ya as look at ya, LOL.
His name is Jake. It’s not for nothing that his nickname is Jake the Snake, hehehe.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (4:56 pm)Wasn’t it the Beat, before it was the Spark, before it was the Viva? There was another little one that was a sibling to the Beat, but I can’t remember its name.
They change the names several times before anything actually happens, LOL. Keeps us guessing, I suppose.
The front is a lot better looking thatn the Spark though. JMHO.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (5:18 pm)Actually, I really like these sketches of this alleged Viva. It is the best I’ve seen for this segment in North America for looks. I would put Hyundai and Toyota last for looks. Like I said above, put a healthy engine and a 6 speed manual in this thing and I might be really tempted.
As to the Aveo’s poor sales vs. Hyundai’s, how much of that is due to the fact that most people don’t want to buy from a bankrupt company and still further there are people that won’t buy from a bailed out company? It has been said in the automotive press that the Koreans are benefiting most of anyone from Detroit’s demise. It makes sense because traditionally, many domestic buyers were value minded. More bang for the buck. Hyundai and Kia definitely deliver that.
I completely agree on the Hyundai reliability and value. I also used to have a car that was made by Kia and it was ridiculously cheap to own and 100% reliable, I would recommend a Kia to anybody. I also think that whoever is doing the styling for Kia now is doing a decent job and is miles ahead of the parent company, Hyundai.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (6:06 pm)Even at 1/4 of the price you still have the weight of the packs, the problem of where to put them and you still are limited on the long trips because of recharge time. Until all of these issues are countered the erev will be the choice for a whole lot of consumers and will have a healthy market share.
Lower cost will mainly mean lower cost!!! Which will allow same or somewhat larger battery packs to compete in price with non-erev cars and trucks.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (7:29 pm)I have to say that I’m not too excited here. With as much backlash and fallout that GM gets, they present to us: A Sketch! Wow! Those government dollars that going to GM are really working their magic!!!!
Just like the initial concept sketches of the Volt, this one looks really cool…but it’ll change until it looks more plain and very similar to something that already exists…. a big yawn to sketches.
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Jul 29th, 2009 (11:13 pm)That’s for me as well.
Form follows function.
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Aug 1st, 2009 (8:25 pm)Gasoline is here to stay for at least 100 years. EREV is the way to go. Even if a 70 kWh battery pack existed it would take a week to recharge…not because of chemistry but because your house wiring can’t handle a larger current flow.
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Aug 7th, 2009 (12:41 pm)Looks like a smaller version of the Pacifica.
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Nov 25th, 2009 (4:20 pm)Thank you looking for details. It helped me in my assignment
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