AND 
Head to Head Test Drive: 2010 Prius vs 2010 Insight w/ Video
I consider myself a fan of fuel efficient vehicles. At this point the Volt seems the best thing coming, although within the next couple of years there will clearly be a plethora of options to choose from. This will include pure EVs, EREVs like the Volt, plugin hybrids, and standard hybrids both mild and strong.
Right now it isn’t really possible to walk into your local dealership and pick up an electric car, although you can get your hands on one with a lot of effort and money.
What we do have at our widespread disposal are state-of-the-art hybrids. Though GM for example has applied hybrid technologies to its large trucks like the Chevy Tahoe, and that serves its purpose, I feel focusing on the small light sedan and optimizing it for efficiency make the most sense to me.
From my work here on GM-Volt.com not only have I been given and continue to get unrestricted access to GM executives and engineers, but I enjoy access to executives and vehicles from all the automakers. A particularly fun perk is getting one-week test drives in some of the latest cars. I took this opportunity to test drive two of the latest mainstream hybrids, the 2010 Prius and the 2010 Insight. I will have the 2010 Fusion hybrid next week.
I compared the Insight and Prius side by side on several parameters, and offer a video of my impression at the end of the post.
I found the Prius to outperform the Insight in all areas but price. It is faster, more powerful, more solid and better handling. It has better interior space and technological nuances. Mostly importantly it got tremendous fuel economy. On a 6.5 mile course I was able to achieve 92.5 MPG in the Prius, with reasonable driving style and moving safely with the flow of the traffic. On another 12 mile course I obtained 81 MPG. The Insight could only achieve 62.5 MPG on that same course.
The Prius beings at $22,000 and the Insight at $19,800, making price the only parameter the Insight did better. Recent reports indicate Honda is scrambling to put out a mid-cycle engineering upgrade to the new Insight to address its shortcomings.
At the end of the day however, neither of these cars can be compared to the Volt. Though I have yet to drive the production model it will clearly be faster, more powerful, quieter, cooler and more high tech. Most importantly it will drive 40 miles without the use of any gas at all. Yes it will at first be more expensive, yet after rebates at $32,500 a Volt is only slightly more than a fully loaded Prius which is $31,770.
July 27th, 2009 at 6:33 am
Thanks for taking a whack and evaluating what’s available to the public right now, Lyle! I eagerly anticipate your inclusion of the Ford Fusion in this review after next week!
A quick question : are you allowed to let anyone besides yourself test drive these vehicles? It would be great to see 3/3 people rate one vehicle as best handling, etc. Of course it’s not your job, and you should be allowed to enjoy your car, so I’ll leave it at that.
..though for me it’s:
NPNS!! =D~~~
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July 27th, 2009 at 6:44 am
I wonder what Toyota and Honda are saying in their board rooms about the progress of the Volt. How worried are they that GM will score a home run on this?
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July 27th, 2009 at 6:53 am
Toyota has their own secret program should PHEV become popular, so far their open opinion is that it has limited appealing to the general public and technically it is not mature yet.
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:12 am
Whilst they are trying very hard to play down the Volt, this is a threat. That said, I think they will have quite a bit of time to catch up as the volt will be released in small quantities, and in stages (not all countries at the same time). This will allow others to evaluate the Volt, its acceptance, and the technology to potentially do one better. The price also allows leeway too, as 40k is not in everyone’s price range. Yes there is a subsidy, but the $7,500 won’t be around forever. even with the subsidy this still leaves a rather large gap between the Volt and the competition (base models), and is not going to be in every country.
The other manufacturers will adapt if they think there is the need, though hopefully the Volt will only benefit from potential competition.
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:13 am
A 92 mpg figure at 6.5 miles ought to be performed also at what would use a full gallon. The reason I mention this is because the fuel ratios can be skewed if you divide the 92 by the 6.5 and get a very low fraction of a gallon. It may work out even higher if the engine were fully warmed up, and certainly lower if the engine was cold from overnight.
The test comparisons ought to have me involved with utilizing a Genisys here in Austin, so that the baseline values could be fairly compared utilizing the external jump-drive feature of the Genisys, and, comparing not only about 10 4,000 dataframe recordings from an exact “service bay temperature from overnight” baselines, to an exact set of recordings of both vehicles.
Analysis of 6 concurrent waves of the major PIDs on a laptop after a 60 mile drive circuit around Austin both at the same time with two Genisys scan systems set up with jump-drives for recording comparisons would provide far more tightly controlled sets of datum.
This would be to confirm that there are no software hacks that unfairly represent a technical inconsistency anywhere.
I will be working this week with the State of Texas Recognized Emissions testing programs for just this sort of confirmation of a certain “non-factory” “non-OEM” aftermarket product utilizing the Genisys. (Only a Genisys at the 2007, not the 2008, but the 2007 upgrade level can reveal software compromises, irregularities, hacks, “mods”, damages from “mods” that always occur when they are “non-facory”, inferior aftermarket parts “junk” which rips off the consumer, and on and on.)
While it is understandable that an OEM would be reluctant to contact me (I’m in the phone book), because I regularly “blast” marketing inconsistencies (and just plain “bs”) here on this thread, (which forum I am very thankful for), the one thing I must always do is be strictly fair as well.
If overall, the usage of gasoline is so drastically reduced so as to set the stage for meaningful chances of survival of future generations, then I must fairly consider it.
While cost per month to the owner might be slight between a 60 mpg auto and a 90 mpg auto, there still is far less tonnage of carbon dioxide being set off into the atmosphere.
The competition here is for the survivability of future generations as far as I am concerned, not money or market or who’s “biggest” or “best”. Although Voltec is clearly what is the best set of technologies for practicabilities in the electrification transition.
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Thanks for the comparison test Lyle.
Leaves one wondering why it has taken Honda so long to get in the game. And why another Civic/Corolla/Prius/Focus clone? Where is the .400 hitter CR-V hybrid? Or the rugged Pilot EV?
Looking forward to the Ford review.
=D~
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:32 am
A Prius thread, with some Insight thrown it…this can’t end well, lol.
I myself have driven both of these vehicles and agree with Lyle’s assessment right across the board. I will add that the Insight fit and finish level did seem to be off compared to other Honda’s I have owned in my lifetome – Civic, Del Sol (well, the wife had this in our ‘youth’).
I think the last gen Prius would have given this Insight a run for its money, which is disappointing, I originally thought/hoped we would have a challenger to the crown, I even put a $500 deposit on one (well before we knew anything about the true nature of the Insight, or the new Prius).
The Insight badly needs some ‘retooling,’ and fast.
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:36 am
From the article: … the next couple of years there will clearly be a plethora of options to choose from. This will include pure EVs, EREVs like the Volt, plugin hybrids, and standard hybrids both mild and strong.
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Yes, this will be the competition. Here’s who will win:
• EREVs
• Strong hybrids
The fear of being stranded will prevent mass adoption of pure EVs. Plugin hybrids offer too little advantage to justify the extra expense and inconvenience. Most mild hybrids are more of a green marketing excercise than anything else.
By contrast, EREVs and strong hybrids offer real advantages with no compromises. The costs of both will come down over time.
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:41 am
PHEVs will fail – not enough benefit to justify the extra cost and inconvenience. EREVs like the Volt will easily beat PHEVs.
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Lyle said: “Recent reports indicate Honda is scrambling to put out a mid-cycle engineering upgrade to the new Insight to address its shortcomings.”
—-
I think Lyle is referencing a ditty from Autocar a week or so ago, here is the article:
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“Honda speeds up Insight Update”
Honda is fast-tracking an upgrade to the Honda Insight to counter the threat posed by the new Toyota Prius.
With the Prius now trumping the Insight’s 85mpg with 107mpg in the same Japanese test cycle, sources in the cars’ home market say Honda engineers are being put under pressure to improve the Insight and close the gap.
While economy will take priority, it’s believed that Honda will also take another look at the chassis to try to refine the Insight’s unsettled low-speed ride.
In the sales race, the Insight got off to a roaring start in Japan in the early part of this year. The Honda even became the nation’s best seller with 10,481 units in April, the first hybrid car ever to achieve that position in Japan.
However, things move fast in the fad-driven Japanese market, and the arrival of the new-shape Prius in May had a dramatic effect on the Insight’s sales, which fell to 8183 units. The car is also being outsold by the Fit (Jazz), 13,016 of which were sold in June.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle.ASpx?AR=241724
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Lyle,
You’re review wasn’t intended to be biased, right? Because when you give your opinion on looks, you’re being overtly biased. When you give your impression on ride, you’re being overtly biased. Your comment about the sound level, overtly biased. Offering a comparison of cars with a six thousand dollar (30%) price difference, overtly biased.
My point is this. You scored the two cars based upon what you like, personally. Nobody cares what you like. Nobody cares what I like. Unlike you, I think the Prius looks terrible from the rear end, like they ran out of redesign money and just shoved the project on to the next step in the manufacturing process. Unlike you, I think the muffled engine sound in the Prius is a huge disappointment. Hey, one man’s noise is another man’s concerto. I think that what you call a “solid ride” makes my butt sore after a significant drive. It just doesn’t matter what you think, personally. When you’re doing a comparison, stick to the objective facts, not the subjective opinions.
Is the Honda Insight 30% uglier (in my opinion, it looks better)? Is the Insight 30% less roomy? Is it 30% worse on fuel mileage? Is it 30% slower getting up to highway speed? Is it 30% less comfortable on a long drive? Is it 30% sloppier in a corner? If no, then why does the Prius cost 30% more out of my wallet? Now that’s a really good point of comparison. Given that, as a nation, we’re struggling to make our house payments, send the kids to college, pay our taxes, keep the cupboards full, save for retirement, why are we giving such a big “tip” to Toyota for the Prius?
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July 27th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Thanks Lyle, your analysis is consistent with other evaluations on the internet. The solar powered fan might make sense in Phoenix, but I look forward to the day all cars have “low E windows.” Hopefully the Volt will sport this technological advance from the get go.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Price will be the huge stumbling block…and to convince a Prius owner to switch to a Volt could be a hard sale. Some features of significant value are often overlooked…for instance the Prius…
- 10+ years of continued production sales to the general public of ONE hybrid powertrain type
- A million+ units in the field
The Prius HSD may be still new tech to some people, but after 10 years, it has established itself as a proven powertrain. The Volt will be for people willing to take a risk on the new GM…
- EREV is more expensive
- a company recently out of bankruptcy
- a company that offers several types of hybrid powertrain types (BAS, 2 Mode, EREV)…but models have not lasted long due to lack of sales volume…so the support from 3rd parties is almost non-existant
- a company that has admitted lackluster issues in the past
However, the Volt is an awesome vehicle…and it should sell well. But can EREV get to million+ vehicles in the field at a $40K+ price?
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:04 am
Sidenote: I appreciated your wardrobe change in the video Lyle, very Hollywood.
(0:10 vs 6:00)
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Having driven both vehicles myself and observing your reported gas mileage, I can say with great confidence that what you call “reasonable driving style” most others consider hypermiling to an extent many would find very annoying, stressful, agitating, slow, etc. It’s true that the Prius blows the Insight away in this type of driving in the city and stop/go traffic. A better comparison would be between the two vehicles in the manner in which regular people drive. You can find many such real world reported numbers on many blog sites; it looks like Prius low to mid 50’s, Insight high 40’s to hovering around 50 in city/highway mixes. Not quite the blowout that it appears when you take them to the extreme (very interesting that both are also beating EPA estimates by a healthy margin). Too bad the EPA doesn’t use a real test track so we could get even better estimates.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Dave G says strong hybrids and EREVs will win. I agree they are superior designs, but price is such an important factor, I’m really not sure they will be the winners in terms of numbers sold.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:17 am
If you can review or compare two products without your opinion then you are in a class of one. If you ask me if I think the ride of one car is better than the other I can only give my opinion. I have a hunch that mags like car and driver use the drivers opinion. If the review had said the ride is 30% stiffer with the prius you would have had no idea as to what that ment. Was it still sloppy on the road or is it like riding on a gravel road? 30% stiffer would only be helpful if YOU had driven only one of the cars and you compared it to your OPINION.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:18 am
Hermant argues against Lyle giving his opinions. I see things quite the reverse. Especially I like knowing Lyle’s opinion.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Talk about “form following function”! I’ld almost swear the doors are interchangeable on those two vehicles. I know I am completely biased but try as hard as I can to be objective I still think the Volt is significantly better looking then either of those cars.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:30 am
It seems to me that the hybrid fuel economy races has turned into a pissing contest not much different than the horsepower wars of years past. A manufacturer redesigns a car… so what do they do to improve it? Add more power. Mininal benefit to the consumer, but it helps sell cars.
Now the big thing is adding more fuel economy. If you go to http://www.mpgillusion.com, you’ll realize that if you increase a vehicle’s fuel economy from 90 mpg to 100 mpg, the yearly gas bill difference is relatively small. Again, minimal benefit to the consumer, but it helps sell cars. Going from 30 to 40 MPG will make a bigger difference in money saved.
Then again, 40 MPG to infinity MPG for the first 40 miles sounds even better.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Hi everyone,
I bought a Ford Fusion Hybrid 3 1/2 week and it has been impressive. My regular MPG on most suburban trips is between 55 and 67. My best mileage to date on suburban loop of 7 miles is 78.1 MPG (!). All in a car that is wider and much heavier then a Prius.
The biggest kick I get is driving at 45 just on electricity.
I’ll have a YouTube video up soon.
Richard
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:38 am
You cannot compare this Prius to the 2011 Volt. There will be at least one more upgrade to the Prius (possibly two) before the Volt released. The next generation Prius will be much less in cost than the Volt. And the most important factor of all and the main reason more people buy Toyota than any other make: QUALITY. You cannot underestimate the quality found in a Toyota. GM Quality…ummm…you don’t wanna go there believe me.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:39 am
It is true, a EREV will always cost more than a BEV. And a BEV more than a hybrid (at least for a very long time-decades). How much more…and how much value the customer associates with the benefit of a EREV, or a BEV over a hybrid will be the deciding factor on a numerical basis of how many sold.
It is very difficult to see past the first initial ‘wave’ of excitement/pent up demand for both EREVs and BEVs…what is the ‘going forward’ demand? Very hard to judge at this point, hopefully it is strong.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:47 am
The price you quote for Volt does NOT include Solar Roof. BTW, there are more advanced Solar Cells than those used in the Prius that would do a better job. Anyway the future plug-in Prius should also qualify for IRS rebate. Comparing similar 2012 models of the Volt vs. Prius you are going to find at least a $10K price differential in my opinion. The Volt will never be able to recoup this difference during its lifetime, hence the Prius will reamain on top. You heard it hear first. Nice try Chevy.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Nice reporting Lyle. Lucky you, you get to test drive all these cars.
When you said “At the end of the day however, neither of these cars can be compared to the Volt”, you were right in more ways than you mention – The Prius and the Insight are made in Japan.
The Chevy Volt will be made in America.
In these dire economic times, when so many of our fellow Americans are out of work, I think we should try to keep as much of our money within our own shores as possible. After all, isn’t the whole idea of all these high-tech vehicles to stem the tide of money flowing to foreign countries? Especially the ones who hate us?
Japan, of course, is our friend. They make excellent cars. But the American car companies now make vehicles that equal or exceed the quality of anything made in the world today.
So I urge anyone who is in the market for a hybrid or electric vehicle to wait for the Chevy Volt if you can. As Lyle said above:
“(The Volt) will clearly be faster, more powerful, quieter, cooler and more high tech. Most importantly it will drive 40 miles without the use of any gas at all”.
To this I would add – and it will be MADE IN AMERICA.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:54 am
You got 92 MPG in a real world Prius test drive. That is totally awesome. I will test drive the Prius this week and check out this beauty myself. I thought that 50 MPG was the max possible. OMG, this might be my next car.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Sorry, Charlie – er – Ray …. the link between “Toyota” and “quality” has long since deteriorated. Ford has surpassed Toyota in most measures of quality, and GM has drawn even – but don’t let facts get in your way of shilling for the Japanese !
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:00 am
The correct statement would be ASSEMBLED IN AMERICA. As most people know the major components such as the Battery (Asia) and Engine (Europe) are made outside America. Also many of the smaller components are made in Asia, Brazil, Canada and Mexico. Remember GM is a Global company. I would estimate the 2011 Volt is about 32 percent “Made In America” at best.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:05 am
If your only measure of success is price, then buy a bike. Consider the impact of $4/gallon …. or even $5/gallong gasoline on your calculations – wait, you didn’t bother to do any.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Pictures of the Nissan wireless charging station:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/gallery/nissan-ev-11-prototype/low/#5
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:11 am
hey all… Short up date on the 2010 Fusion Hybrid which I picked up last week…
I filled the tank on Wed. The travel indicator in the top right corner of the dash stated that I have 880 KMS till empty..
I have driven approximately 375 KMS on this tank and the travel indicator states that I still have 675 KMS till empty…
The fuel gauge is showing 3/4 of a tank left after 375 KMs… So far I am extremely impressed with the milage (2/3 of it in the city). The life time Kms/100 Liters is sitting at 6.1 right now… AND the car is not anywhere near being broken in yet… (less than 1000 KMS)
Loving the car so far…
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Drop the America First prejudice, it has no place in this age. This is 2009 and it is a Global Economy. GM will soon be selling most of it cars overseas and will also have most of its employees overseas. Not to mention that a portion of the Volts made in America will be Sold outside the country. And GM will be building addtional Volts (possibly the majority) in Europe and China as well.
BTW, you sound like a racist. Your last name wouldn’t be Gates would it ?
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Errr…. This is an online forum.
It is practically the mission of these places to ALLOW the sharing of your personal opinion.
Lyle’s opinion counts for a lot with most of us here. There is no requirement to AGREE with them, but I always RESPECT them.
Although I am not a huge fan of the prius, I did take a quick look at both the insight and the prius, and Lyle’s review says very much what I felt when looking at both these cars.
The insight felt cheap…
The prius felt like, well… a Toyota. (not my cup of tea but well made)
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:16 am
good morning no name.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:20 am
The Ford Fusion Hybrid R O C K S
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Off Topic.
Tesla Tussles.
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/news/canadian-press-car-article.aspx?cp-documentid=20889839
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Normally I would not bother to acknowledge a person like you, but this time I will.
Nothing in my post indicates any racism. I like the Japanese people, and their culture. I have been to Japan several times. In fact, my daughter lives in Tokyo, and has a Japanese boyfriend whom we love dearly.
Americans are the most generous people in the world – we are always finding ways to help those in distress around the world.
But now many of my fellow countrymen are in distress – out of work and hopeless.
Is it wrong to want to help them by boosting up our own economy first? After all, we can’t continue to afford to help people around the world if our own economy is in shambles.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:28 am
The Prius is the best hypermiler on the road. Once you hit 40 miles in a Volt its totally downhill against the Prius. So if you are willing to live in a 20 mile bubble around your house than the Volt wins. Otherwise the Prius punks the Volt silly.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Great link Herm. I was wondering how that would be set up.
I find it odd that one would have to drive OVER the cable though. (They have some little plastic hump thing that you can see in the bottom corner of the photo that is covering the cable).
Why not just have the cable come from the front area of the garage so you wouldn’t have to drive over anything with the wheels?
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:32 am
“Ford has surpassed Toyota in most measures of quality, and GM has drawn even”
References please.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Dave,
Some would call the Volt a PHEV. I think the sweeping generalization that PHEV’s will fail might be a bit over the top.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:38 am
statik says “a EREV will always cost more than a BEV. ”
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Actually this is backwards. Adding sufficient kWh to the battery pack increases the cost way more than adding an engine. The cost of the battery is in fact the raison d’etre for the EREV. The cost of a battery pack is linear, so doubling the size of the pack to 32 kWh from 16 kWh would drive the cost of the pack from $12K to $24K. Adding an engine can’t be more than a few thousand dollars.
For costs, it’s more like ICE<Hybrid<EREV<BEV. Not surprisingly, for numbers sold you’re probably looking at the same thing. The big deal for EREV is that it’s on the correct side of the 80/20 rule, meaning that it will give you 80% of the benefits of a pure EV with only 20% of the cost. (Well maybe the 80/40 rule). Very clever design, and the closer you look at it the more clever it appears.
Looking at the issue more generally, what is even more important is that the cars be reliable. Toyota has managed to do that with the Prius. No one gets in one in the morning wondering if they will be able to make it to work. Hopefully the Volt will be more like the Prius and less like the EV1 in that regard (not that the EV1 was bad but it had its issues). Enthusiasts will put up with things that ordinary drivers will not, and to drive numbers you need the ordinary driver.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Muddy,
Amen about the right to air thoughts here (although anti-Volts should be driven into the ground like tent pegs)(er, just kidding there).
Really, I’m loving the idea that Lyle has some creds with the other mfgs and it can only add to the thoughts here.
Be well,
Tagamet
PS Statik’s posts today add to the rumor that he’s actually Bob Lutz (hee hee).
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:40 am
You are making an unfair comparison of a maxed out fully loaded Prius at $31,000 vs a base model Volt with rebate at $32,750. I know this is a Volt fan site, but how about some amount of objectivity.
The base Prius is $22,000, the base Volt is probably $40,000, almost a 81% more expensive. That’s a pretty significant difference, especially in todays economy.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Absolutely, that looks more like “clone follows function”.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:44 am
That is just a frivolous lawsuit that will eventually be thrown out of the courts. Eberhard just got his feelings hurt when Mr. Musk kicked him to the curb for massive incompetence (cost overruns, missing deadlines, poor engineering mistakes, etc). Mr. Eberhard would have drove Tesla into the ground. Mr Musk, the true founder, revitalized the program and made it profitable. The next the Eberhard will do is take credit for the Model S, ha ha, he is a pathetic joke.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:51 am
LYLE:
I gave two people -1’s and one got a +2 and the other a +1. Just thought I’d mention a possible glitch.
Thanks for all you do.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Good Morning all our American friends. We watch Volt progress with much laughter. The Volt will price itself out of the market if it tries to match the advanced features of our next Prius. We have very much more surprises for the Americans. Thank Mr. Lyle for positive Prius review and we look forward to the head-to-head PRIUS vs. Volt review. It will be ugly for Chevy but you can pick up your pride from the asphalt and improve on a good first effort. For now we will enjoy our superior breakfast and hope GM is still up for the challenge from the world’s biggest auto maker.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:53 am
There is no such things as an unbiased review if opinion is considered as bias. A reviewer can only judge based on what they experience. In this context, Lyle could only be considered to be biased if he disliked Honda and was looking for a way to pan its product regardless of his experience, or if he especially liked Toyota and wanted to give its product a boost regardless of his experience.
With respect to the Prius and the Insight, many reviewers, perhaps even most, have arrived at the same conclusion as did Lyle. Honda just didn’t get the Insight right. it took too much content out of the car and saved too few dollars. FWIW this happens all the time. Getting the cost/performance mix just right is tricky. In a completely different context, witness the Cadillac SRX or the Saturn Sky, both great cars with weak powertrains.
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Hey Richard… If you don’t mind my asking what did they stick you for on price. I priced one recently and it was in the low 30’s. OUCH
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:55 am
But he stayed with the informal theme …
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July 27th, 2009 at 9:58 am
I doubt they’re too worried. They have other things to worry about right now. Like the recovery of the US and Japanese markets. And their poor performance in China. (For some reason all the manufacturers continue to believe that China will allow foreign manufacturers permanent access to the Chinese market.) Toyota’s still bleeding cash. I believe that Honda’s still making a profit, but it’s much much less than in 2007. They’re not worried right now about 2013–which is the earliest point at which GM will build enough to make a difference.
That said, I’m sure they’re taking note of GM’s progress. And if the Volt is a sucess, they’ll put out a plug-in Prius, which given the number of Toyota fans, will probably do pretty well.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:00 am
And geeeezzzzzzzz Barry you sound like a communist (but I’m sure your not). Apparently you missed his point, American workers making America’s economy better by “working” in America!! Just in case you needed a little clarification, but I’m sure you didn’t
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:00 am
I, too, am looking forward to the 2010 Fusion report. Most likely I’ll be getting a Fusion as who knows when the Volt will be available. Still, I think the Voltec system will be a game changer by it’s second generation.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:03 am
When Honda first announced plans to create a Prius competitor, I had hoped it would be a real competitor. Instead we got a very good little hybrid, for a gen 1 vehicle, but one that could not compete head-to-head with the Prius. It is not that I wanted Honda to knock the Prius off the top of the pile as much as I wanted Honda to be competitive. I, too, wanted to put down a deposit on the Insight. Once I saw the specs for the Insight and knew it was going to be even smaller than the at then current Prius, I decided to forgo the chance to purchase an Insight. Hopefully Honda can get their hybrid better engineered to really become a competitor. It is good to have a choice and not have to depend on Toyota for a real high mileage hybrid. Although I do think the Prius is a great vehicle, I just prefer some competition. It is all good.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Most reasonable people would consider your argument hollow ….. by the way, if you are going to hypermile, please stay off the interstate highways – especially the entrance ramps !
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:05 am
If by upgrade you mean small changes then yes, that will happen. But those won’t radically change anything.
As for quality, Toyota is still probably at the top. But realistically not by very much and certainly not for every model. As noted, most reviewers, including Consumer Reports, will say that the Fusion is more reliable than a Camry. Generally speaking most manufacturers are fairly even. The Volt will probably have a few more problems than the Prius. As a first generation vehicle that is to be expected. But it will also offer a lot more …
But you are right that quality is important. The Volt is a big opportunity for GM to capture a demographic that has proven elusive. Hopefully it won’t blow it by offering a car with poor quality. In this regard, if the trade off is between a higher price or lower quality, they need to worry about quality first and price second.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Troll alert ! I hope the raw fish and cold noodles were tasty – you are welcome to my portion as well.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Yes, I agree with you about the Ford Fusion. That is the one I want to see Lyle really go over good. I like the idea of the Ford Fusion and It will be interesting to see it compared to Lyle’s experience with the Prius and the Insight. I don’t think the Prius will be knocked off its mileage championship by the Fusion anymore than it was by the Insight. But it will be interesting to read Lyle’s report.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Between the two, ceteris paribus, my pick is the Prius.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Didn’t Nissan say they would price their BEV around the price of a standard car? If so, that would be much lower than an EREV or Hybrid. Or did I misunderstand Nissan?
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:12 am
I love how we are all clamoring to make the Volt’s price comparable to other models.
So a base Volt is only going to cost a little more than a fully loaded Prius – so what? Why is the base Volt model not compared to the base Prius for pricing? Its much more accurate to compare the base Prius is @ $22,000 with the base Volt being @ $32,500.
That also includes two assumptions:
1 – that the $7500 credit remains available to everyone and
2 – there is no dealer markup for a high demand vehicle
And really, in this day and age of squeezing every last $ out of the consumer, what are the odds of #2 not happening?
If the base Prius remains @ $22,000 and the base Volt turns out to be closer to say $36,000 – is it worth the $14,000 extra?
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Sounds great, Ray. Good luck with the Fusion and keep us in the loop.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:19 am
I guess we will see, I for one think that was ‘marketing’ and not necessarily based on reality.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Lyle said that the Insight is cheaper. Sometimes it’s worth spending extra. Sometimes it’s not. In this case, most people think it is. But if you’re on a strict budget, buy the Insight.
Actually, buy a Ford Focus, Chevy Cobalt or a Hyundai Elantra. They’re all a lot cheaper than the Insight. Or, better yet, buy a used car. That will be even cheaper. And you will probably never make up the difference in gasoline.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Somehow I don’t think either of them are too worried about the Volt based on GM’s past track record and the public’s love affair with Japanese vehicles. They know that no matter how good the Volt is stacked up against the Prius or Insight, the media and the public will thrash the daylights out of GM no matter what. Public sentiment is against American made vehicles and they don’t expect that to change. But, I say that GM has a chance to turn the tables on the imports if the public and the media will give them half a chance. GM has got to build quality and dependability into every vehicle or else they will lose from the git go. They are already running a long fifth place in most people’s minds and have been written off by a lot of others. It is GM’s do or die moment that will tell whether they succeed or fail over the next 3 or 4 years. That’s all the time GM has to turn things around. Maybe they can do it or maybe they can’t. Who knows.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Also, the $7500 rebate does NOTHING for your payments. At signing and what you finance is NOT affected by the $7500 rebate. So when one makes the comparison the rebate does not count WHEN YOU SIGN. Your loan will not reflect a -$7500 not will the price selling reflect a -$7500.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:22 am
The price of the VOLT will be a HUGE factor in sales, regardless of the price of gas at the time. A difference of about $4000 in amount financed is a change of $100 in payment.
If the average VOLT ends up $4000 more than the average Prius, it could be difficult close the budget payment buyer with “but it’s only $100 more per month than a Prius”. Not impossible. Just difficult.
The final price of the VOLT will surely boost other brands of hybrid economy cars.
On the other hand, if the fit, finish, and performance is there, selling a VOLT against a small Lexus, Audi, or Mercedes could be an easy deal…
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I think you certainly pointed out some of the problems facing GM. Whether they can overcome those problems is the real question. I do hope so.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I agree. I want to read the Fusion review also. Personally, the Fusion seems to hit the sweet spot in size and efficiency, and the same can be said of the Camry hybrid. I think the main thing holding people back on the Fusion and Camry hybrids is the higher price and lack of “Hybrid recognition”. That’s just my own un-scientific opinion though.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I’m really liking that Toyota Prius about now. Don’t know if the Volt can really hang with it. Just too many advantages of Parallel Hybrid over the older Series Hybrid model.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:28 am
You do realize that the US trade deficit in 2007 was $700 billion and growing? It’s down now because of the economy, but a) it’s still on track for over $300 billion (which is enormous in real terms), and b)there’s no reason to think it won’t go right back up if the economy recovers.
You don’t have to be a racist, or even an American to see that as a problem. It’s a massive imbalance that’s going to have to be corrected at some point. And, when it corrects, it’s going to be painful. For everyone. Not just the US.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Good luck on that waiting list.
I hear it is 9 months long.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:30 am
This thread is pretty ‘hodge-podgy’ so why not shoot out some into on Nissan’s unveiling out theretoday:
—-
NISSAN READIES ITS ELECTRIC VEHICLE PLATFORM
- All-electric car goes to market in U.S. and Japan in 2010 -
Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. today previewed its electric vehicle (EV) platform on a Tiida-based prototype to demonstrate the superior driving pleasure of a pure zero-emission vehicle.
The in-house developed electric motor delivers 80kW/280Nm for high response and powerful acceleration. Nissan’s unique motor control also contributes to the vehicle’s seamless acceleration.
The 24kWh laminated compact lithium-ion battery pack is placed under the vehicle floor for more efficient packaging, without compromising cabin or cargo space. The battery layout also allows smooth underfloor air-flow which helps reduce drag. Additionally, the regenerative brake system employed to recharge the battery during deceleration and braking extends the driving range to more than 160km*1 under a full charge.
(it has some fancy interface goodies too)
Autoblog has the story…and a video, worth a looksie.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/27/nissan-shows-off-new-versa-based-electric-vehicle-prototype/
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:30 am
I agree, Tag. Dave seems to be a little more pessimistic than usual of late. Sure, adding a plug and a larger battery is costly. I saw a report on the news yesterday where a university group had added a Hymotion battery pack to a Prius and achieved 170 MPG. The report said the car’s computer could not calculate the actual mileage because it wasn’t designed to calculate mileage that high, but that was the mileage they calculated based on their test.
So, I ask you. What kind of mileage on the Prius would justify the additional cost of such items as a plug and battery pack like that? I would certainly settle for those mileage numbers. I don’t remember the cost figures quoted, but it was over $10,000, I believe.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Although you sure sound like no name I’ll answer anyway.
The Volt starts it’s “hypermiling” by not using any gas at all for the first 40 miles while the prius heats up it’s catylitic converter to full temp long before that.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:35 am
The Volt will not meet my needs. Sorry, 40 miles just won’t cut it. I need at least 70 mile electric range, maybe the Nissan or BMW Mini will float my boat. Chevy might want to think about offering the Volt with different battery ranges (i.e. sizes or densities) to meet the needs of all potential customers. Don’t believe the basis for their 40 mile limit.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:36 am
LOL!
Since ABSOLUTELY NO ONE knows the actual price the Volt will carry when it hits showrooms statements like these are fairly pointless.
Particularly when there is no information on how a ‘base Volt’ will be equipped.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:37 am
I think it’s no name with their multiple personalities voting themselves up.
You get the page refresh when you vote.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:38 am
lol….
statik, you peepin Tom you…
yuk, bad picture.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:38 am
“So, I ask you. What kind of mileage on the Prius would justify the additional cost of such items as a plug and battery pack like that? I would certainly settle for those mileage numbers. I don’t remember the cost figures quoted, but it was over $10,000, I believe.”
Personally the MPG increase would need to be zero as long as the majority of my needs would be met in AER. I think the sweet spot is reflected in the Volt, but many would want/need less. Sooner or later we’ll have an ala carte menu where you could choose the AER mileage (and size of vehicle) based on your needs. At THIS point, all AER’s are golden.
JMO,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:39 am
A fair question.
I’m looking forward to the answer in 15 months!
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Actually the Volt (when it FINALLY goes on sale via eBay or whatever) will be much closer to the price of a new Tesla than that of a Prius. Also I believe the Volt does much more harm to the environment than the Prius. And don’t even get me started on the Volt’s massive carbon footprint…ouch.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:41 am
>> superior breakfast
He’s right! Sushi waffles rule!
Or not.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:44 am
If you don’t know that giving a review of one or more vehicles is nothing more than reporting on your experience then there is nothing more to be said to you. Your experience is nothing more than your opinion. Every reviewer gives his or her opinion. How else can you report on your experience. We humans are not computers that can just spit out numbers to represent comparisons. We judge by “feeling” and we state our feelings as opinions. If you have a better way, let us all in on it. You seem to feel that the Honda Insight did not deserve to come out on the short end of this review. I think it deserved what Lyle gave it. His opinion based on his experience with the two cars. Nothing more, nothing less. Hopefully Honda will address the Insight’s shortcomings soon. I, personally, love Honda vehicles much more that Toyota vehicles. But, in my opinion, the Prius is a much better vehicle for the money spent. Even with the higher price tag.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Absolutely!
Sadly we all look for the ‘big number’ rather than the ‘important’ number.
I think the 2 mode Silverado is actually the really significant ‘current’ hybrid because it makes a MUCH bigger difference in actual fuel usage.
I hope GM figures out how to drop the price difference between it and the ‘normal’ light duty Silverado. If they CAN then it would be possible to drop the conventional model and ALL Silverado’s would be 2 mode.
That would be a big saving in fuel!
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:53 am
No name just crossed the “needs medication” line then.
Thanks,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:55 am
That’s really the trick isn’t it!
At current showroom price estimates the Volt will be going up against the very good MB C Class. (This is the car I had been ‘coveting’ until I heard about the Volt.)
The quality and well built ‘feel’ absolutely need to be there.
This is why it’s so important to give the team the time to get it truly right.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Really tough to get crispy sushi waffles….
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:56 am
What I mean is that a BEV will always cost less than a EREV with the same or similar sized packs.
Of course a BEV is going to cost more if you double or triple the kWh on the pack over a EREV (sidenote: when did adding 16kWh of battery cells to a pack cost 12K?). By the same token a EREV with a 300HP engine is going to cost more than a BEV with 40kW pack. You just can’t just plunk in any random additional variance to make your point.
We were talking strickly about sales, as in which platform will sell more in the future….not which has better functionality, range or performance, those are all factors, but for most people, they will have a price range they start at, and EREVs may prove to be out of most people grasp, limiting sales.
I have no problem with stating the EREV has greater functionality over a BEV, I don’t dispute that at all…that doesn’t mean it will sell better. But it might…I dunno.
Going forward, the gap will only widen, the price of a ICE and the ‘extended range’ part of the EREV is very stable, fixed…however the price of the lithium battery packs are only dropping. Basically, the closest price comparison between a EREV and a BEV is right now…the gap can only widen going forward.
The issue with BEVs right now is range.
The issue for EREVs is starting platform costs.
Taking all electric components out of the Volt, the cost is probably around $22,000 (basic standard fair for ICE sedan), then you add the cost of electric propulsion and additional 2-mode components. Stripping out the electric component out of a pure BEV, you have a shell that costs probably around 8-10K, then you add in the cost of electric.
The difference in the base starting cost is the issue. That is what you have to make up for in value in the customers mind, with things like range anxiety, performance, etc. As lithium becomes cheaper it will only become harder to make that jump.
The Volt will never make more sense over a BEV than on the very first day, every subsequent day as lithium technology and pricing gets better, the BEV gets better.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Good! All the more Volts for us real people!
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:59 am
I really like this idea! My only concern is how close the receiver on the car is to the ground. Probably safe on most well paved streets but a little close for some country roads. jmho.
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July 27th, 2009 at 10:59 am
That’s a pretty sharp looking car. If they can come in under $30k, it might be my next car. And its a real BEV!
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:01 am
You ARE busy this morning no name!
(is it too wet under the bridge?)
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:02 am
It is very possible that the price of the Nissan EV could be competitive with an ordinary car. I would imagine it will start somewhere around the $25k range.
It’s basically going to be a $15,000 car (similar price to a 2010 Sentra) without the cost of the transmission and engine ($5,000) brings it down to $10,000, and throw in a $15,000 battery puts you back up to $25,000. There might be nominal other extra costs for battery management computers and the electric motor…
My guess is the Gen 1 Nissan BEV will start at $30,000, but then you’ve got a $7,500 federal tax incentive which will bring it down to a normal vehicle’s price range of $22,500-$25,000.
I don’t think they’ll be able to charge any more than $30,000 when they’ve got to compete with the Volt that has the “small” benefit of no range anxiety. After hearing Lyle’s range anxiety story in his Mini, and that’s just one guy who’s had an EV for 1 month, multiply the factors by millions of EVs that they are hoping to sell, and over 2-3 years…I guarantee there will be EV horror stories taking the country like wildfire. Right now only EV enthusiasts are driving EVs, so these stranded in your EV with no plug stories are laughed off, but when grandma or your Aunt Ida think an EV sounds “cute” and they buy one in a Nissan showroom and forget that they can only go the equivalent of 3 gallons on a full 8-10 hour charge, we’ll see how the Nissan BEV competes with the Volt.
I asked a lady at Toyota what was the most common problem with Priuses people were having. She told me their reliability is practically bulletproof, but a lot of people forget to put gas in them and call their roadside assistance for that, I asked why, she said she didn’t know but guessed it was because they think they are some perpetual motion machine or something.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:11 am
evidence oh under bridge dweller…
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Lyle,
Wardrobe is always important. You want to look like a very polished reviewer. I have to give you some minus points for lack of wardrobe thought. Just my opinion, mind you. And you know how opinions are. Everyone’s got one or more. Mostly more. But, still. I enjoyed the video. Good work.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:13 am
That’s a Nissan Versa.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:13 am
How do you know Lyle was hypermiling? I did not get that impression from his video or report.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:14 am
60.3 MPG is the average displayed for my current tank at 282 miles of mixed driving.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:14 am
I got it at $400 below MSRP which was right around $28,800 with delivery (I’ve got the invoice here somewhere if you want the exact figure). I ordered when the $3400 tax credit was in place so the net cost turns out to be $25,400. Hope this helps, let me know if any more questions I can help with. I am working on a YouTube review showing how you can drive it to get the high MPG figures.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Great for you. Give use the link and keep us informed.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Your right Bob, I hate the fact we always compare the Volt’s ‘maybe MSRP’ to the ‘done out to the 9s’ Prius.
Sure it ‘can’ be that expensive, sure the Volt will have a lot of twirrly things, but the fact remains that if you want a Prius for $22,000 you can get one. That puts it in most people’s price range, and they can CHOOSE to add options if they want.
If they force you to take a 8 way power seat in your Volt, that doesn’t mean it automatically gets compared to a similarly optioned Prius. I’m not thrilled about adding in limited time gov’t rebates into product comparisons either.
Truth be told, I hate, hate Prius vs Volt debates…to me it is pointless to compare the two, they are totally different cars/platforms, in totally different price brackets. I’d rather consider them ‘friends’ in the new world than ‘foes’
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:17 am
92.5 MPG – Go Prius !
Volt can’t touch that.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:21 am
I agree you can not (or should not, because everyone will) compare the Prius to the Volt. But I don’t see Toyota updating the Prius all that much over the next year and half. I think your thinking went off track a little bit there with that statement.
And as far as quality is concerned, of the 3 or 4 Prius test drives I have taken, I have always been impressed with the lack of quality materials in use. Toyota uses some pretty cheap looking plastics and cloths in the Prius. Not that they don’t look OK, just cheap looking. I agree that Toyota builds good dependable vehicles, but I have never been all that impressed with their interior materials on most of their vehicles I have driven. Of course, just my opinion.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:22 am
I do see your point and for people with a really big garage (and budget) I even agree but I think most people in the real world buy one car for ALL their needs.
EREV works here where a BEV simply cannot.
An example; Saturday morning we decide to go to Banff for lunch and a soak in the hot pools.
It’s a nice place! YOU should visit!
(There, I’ve done my bit to boost the economy!)
This is ‘roughly’ 140 km one way from my house. A Volt would have no issue whatsoever with this. Any semi reasonable priced BEV would not be able to make this trip.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Very nice. Please post a link to your Youtube video when you have it up. Thanks!
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:26 am
I don’t think anyone believe’s that a million gen 1 Volts are going to be built.
The later cost reduced (and yes bug fixed) generations of Volt will be the big number cars.
It was the same with prius.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Nor did he bother to keep the bias hidden. I think if I were him, I would certainly take your advice and get myself a bike. Apparently people like him can only think with the part of the body that has no brain. Their head. They are just brainless repeaters of what they hear. No real experience to base their rantings on. Just repeating dogma.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Just curious.. has Andrew Farah (or anyone at GM) given any clues to the different trim levels of the Volt? What’s the most expensive Volt I can buy, meaning, what options will I have? Leather seats? A premium sound system? From what I’ve read, a lot of this is already built into the Volt. So unless they offer a solar-cell roof for $4000, or spinner-rims, I dont see what the options would be.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:31 am
State your source of 32% figure. Even estimates are based on figures. Or are you jut throwing out a number? I agree a lot of the “parts” will come from foreign sources. But 68%? Maybe a little of a stretch.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:31 am
One other factor is that we don’t know what options will be available on the Volt (except maybe solar roof for ventilation). So it could be that there will be only one package available at launch and therefore a fairer comparison with a fully loaded Prius.
The first Volts will undoubtedly sell at a premium for someone. Someone will buy and resell immediately for profit. As it should be if demand is high enough.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:33 am
If that’s true then the target audience that travels only 40 miles will be taken away to this car. The volt will then be renedered a niche product.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Looking forward to statik in the pink tie…
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Good luck, but don’t get too carried away. While the Prius will give you impressive mileage, don’t expect those kind of numbers each and every day. Try several other offerings before you make up your mind. Try out the Honda Insight and the Ford Fusion. Then decide which of the three you think gives you what you want. Even the Honda Fit and Honda Civic Hybrid will provide outstanding mileage as will several vehicles made by GM and Ford. There are plenty of vehicles to chose from. Shop around and experience more than just the Prius. Although it is a good vehicle even if pricey for what you get.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:36 am
I would like to see some scantily clad women next to the cars.
You should have found an empty road, and lined up the Prius, the Civic, and the Mini E. Thrown a flag in the air and see who wins.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:37 am
I smell sheep.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Agreed.
But as you well know there is a long standing ‘tradition’ in the automotive world of “loving” your brand and “hating” the others.
It’s not really sane, but it is what it is.
For the record I grew up in a Chevy family.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Think BEV. Think NISSAN.
The real electrics are coming…
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Or get a scooter. Payback in 2 years.
Or buy a sticker that says “Hybrid” and stick it on your clunker.
Price/value.. very subjective things.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Say! What happens when the house cat walks over that plate? Or decides to curl up on it? Fried cat?
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Which is actually a Renault Clio.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:42 am
I am sure you could route it from the front if that is where your plug is located. Shouldn’t be any different than plugging in anything else.
It was interesting to see Nissan placing the plug under the front badge plate. Looks like it would be easily broken off by someone walking past. Neighborhood kids or just “hoods”.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Let me get this understood in my old brain. At 40 miles AER and 30 miles at [hopefully 50 mpg] in ER mode using .6 gallons of gas will make the Volt unable to compete for your needs. I would think 116 mpg would be quite good.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Rude comment.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:50 am
For me, it could be free, but I still wouldnt buy it, as I want a series hybrid (just for personal reasons). All arguments aside of the best design, lowest cost, saving the environment, dispacing oil, etc.. I really want a series hybrid, so that’s my personal #1 decision making process. Once battery tech gets there, I want a BEV.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:50 am
That is just the result of you seeing how the vote stands after you voted. Those other votes had been received while you were reading the post and not refreshed your screen. Your voted refreshed that portion of your screen.
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:55 am
This sort of device works through induction so there shouldn’t be much danger of direct electricution.
Now if your cat has piercings…. /eeew.. sorry about that
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:55 am
very good argument for EREV. In fact comparing BEV and EREV is silly. Unless you buy the BEV as a second car you will always worry about getting stuck somewhere or forced to limit your trips. Volt lets you have your cake and eat it too. At least at some higher than desirable price!
We should always look upon the Volt as defaulting to a BEV with an emergency tow-truck attached. (
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July 27th, 2009 at 11:57 am
That’s just your date.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I’d say it is clearly more like 33.7%
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Yeah, my rely – upon a second reading- was very unclear. I meant to say pretty much what you said in reply. A series vehicle is the only totally gas-free alternative that will cover most people’s driving needs (I’m braced for a lot of other opinions about that).
In any case, it’s no shocker that I’m a Volt Fanboy (and very proud of it).
Come on GM, get that fleet of test vehicles on the road so that they can all be “free” ads for the gas-free future.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Volt = v6 power all of the time
Volt = quiet electric drive all of the time
Volt = first 40 miles ~ no gasoline
Volt = comfort ~ 4 bucket seats (leather)
Volt = recharge at the workplace ~ no gasoline
Prius compares to the Insight and to the Fusion. None of the three compare to the Volt. It’s apples to oranges. Let’s watch and see how Lyle’s Ford Fusion test drive goes.
=D~
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
THAT might be a ‘different’ website….
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Our rather vocal friend John1701a claims 60.3 mpg in his 2010 prius.
So hmmm DOES have a point.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Be advised that Nissan’s new generation of Electric Vehicle’s are super-quiet zero-emission cars.
The Volt on the other hand is not quiet and not even close to zero-emission.
Nissan EV will be Made In America.
The Volt will be Made Around The World.
Choose wisely, our country depends on it.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Amen!
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Right on!
Just imagine the number if you only drove 50 miles…
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Dongfeng Motor in China will soon begin production of electric vehicles. GM get ready for a severe smackdown. Don’t look now because we are coming on strong you not only player.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Wrong comparison. Here is the REAL comparison:
Volt = Hybrid
Fusion = Hybrid
Insight = Hybrid
Prius = Hybrid
Volt = Fusion = Insight = Prius
Nissan = Electric
Nissan > Volt
Nissan + 1
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Oh good…I’ve been looking for a place to state my philosophy about Asian food.
Its really simple for me wherein, I cannot garner any respect for an entire food culture that doesn’t even CONSIDER the use of cheese.
“superior breakfast”…puh-lease!
I realize that this is an opinion and its is mine.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
don’t get me wrong I’m not a hater but come on Lyle how can you be so sure, with what’s happened to GM and continues to happen I can’t believe a word they are saying, Lutz reties then unretires, they kill the Malibu hybred, two huge miles stones need to take place
1. First the Volts have hit the dealer showrooms
2. Second the Prius needs to be frozen in time, for the Volt to kick it’s butt, not very likely as it will be on it’s next generation, plug in perhaps
“At the end of the day however, neither of these cars can be compared to the Volt. Though I have yet to drive the production model it will clearly be faster, more powerful, quieter, cooler and more high tech. Most importantly it will drive 40 miles without the use of any gas at all.”
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Good one DirtyDawgRob!!!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
“The Insight could only achieve 62.5 MPG on that same course.”
ONLY
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
I detect a racist tone in your message. Is that because I am Black ?
Do you know who your dealing with here Whitey !
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
If you live close to your work and only want a commuter car, then any BEV that has the range needed for a round trip commute with some percentage of miles per charge over that would do. But most of us can’t afford to purchase a car only for commuting. We have to have one for multiple purposes. BEVs will do a lot for a lot of people but they are not the end to the story. The story’s end has not been written yet.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Not quite.
The Volt is an electric car with a backup plan.
If you can live with a 40 mile range then day to day the Volt would run just like a BEV without the genset starting.
BUT, on the weekend you don’t have to hassle with renting a car, just jump into the Volt and go to the lake.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
We don’t yet know if the Ford Fusion Hybrid will suffer the same fate as the Toyota Camry Hybrid. I am of the opinion that to be successful a hybrid needs to be a little more distinctive than the car it is based on, assuming it is based on another. The Prius and the Insight are distinctive in their own right and both will be “successful”. The Prius has already made that “grade” and the Insight will make it also. The Volt is not based on another vehicle, but it is another story all by itself. The same does not hold true about it having to be distinctive from its sibling. It should be successful assuming price, quality and dependability make the grade.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
That was a fun link statik.
I think if I lived in Tokyo, I would actually get one of those.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Car loans are simple interest loans. When you eventually get the $7500, send it in with the next loan payment. You may eat a few extra dollars in short-term interest but that should be the extent of the financial damage.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Just don’t touch them with your bare hand, you are likely to be poisoned.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
America needs to invest more heavily in China. If we increase Chinese production capabilities by building numerous Volt production plants, more iPhone plants, etc. and thus lower the cost of these products than more Americans can afford them and everyone will be Happy. More Chinese workers (especially rural chinese) are paid well and Americans get very cheap high-quality products. This is the solution to the global economic crisis. Also if enough Chinese become millionaires than some will visit USA and spend money in your country. This is a win-win for both great Nations. But first Prez Obama need to send a huge load on the first boat to China.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Let’s see. When was the Prius introduced? 1997? After 13 years (1997 – 2010) Toyota has sold a million of them. Not bad. That comes out to 83,333 per year for the first 12 years. Most of these 1 million probably were sold in the last five years. (I am assuming that.)
Can the Volt sell 85,000 per year after the first year of production? Absolutely. If price, quality and dependability are built in just right.
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Cool video!
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Ford-Passes-Toyota-in-JD-Power-Initial-Quality-84727
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=14&article_id=5402
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210377/?FORM=ZZNR8
Since 2007, the last is less than a month old..
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July 27th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Yep, and for anyone who’s interested, the formula for figuring out your mileage with the Volt, it is:
MPG = 50xM/(M-40)
M is the number of miles you drive after charging up.
So, for example, if you routinely drive 60 miles per day, you get:
50×60=3000 divided by 60-40=20. So 3000/20 = 150
The Volt would get 150 MPG under these circumstances.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I agree about being a Volt fanboy. I am one myself. Correct me if I am wrong on this, buy didn’t Toyota make a statement about the Prius would cost over $40,000 with a plug-in and large enough battery to enable about 20 miles per charge in EV mode? Seems I remember reading that. So, that makes the Volt very competitive against a plug-in Prius assuming all other factors are even. (Quality and dependability. In looks, the Volt rules 100%.)
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Yep again Muddy.
It’s easy to figure out.
MPG=50xM/(M-40).
So 50×50=2500. 50-40=10.
So 2500 divided by 10 = 250.
You would get 250MPG if you drove 50 miles after charging.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
cry baby..
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
OOPS, I should have replied to my own post in order to keep the sequence correct.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
For the Malibu to come back as a hybrid needs to turn “Fusion” like numbers or it doesn’t make sense. Customers can add, they did so and stayed away in droves. (This ball needs to be picked up at some point with a truly efficent midsize car.)
The Volt represents the shift to full electric drive without the compromises that make BEV’s impractical for most people.
The prius like it or not has one foot in the old world and one in the new, the Volt is the first real chance to have a real electric car that anyone can live with.
I for one find Lyle’s enthusiasim inspiring.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
The average US family has over 2.28 cars per household. Which makes a BEV the perfect second car, no renting required.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
“I would like to see some scantily clad women next to the cars.”
————————-
Now that you got me thinking about it…. Nah, I better keep my opinion to myself.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
“When you eventually get the $7500….”
That’s “IF” you are scheduled to get any $$$ back.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
The Volt will never make more sense over a BEV than on the very first day, every subsequent day as lithium technology and pricing gets better, the BEV gets better.
—————————————————————————–
It will be interesting to see how much range anxiety is worth? With vehicle pricing aside, the slow refueling of a BEV is a major drawback. What is it worth?
For most people at $40+K, it is not even an option to consider even if gas was $10 gallon. The recent events shows that people just drive less with unbearable increases in fuel prices. At $10 gallon would GM sell more Volts…I think the economy would nose dive at those prices. Not much of anything would be selling…a vegetable garden would be more than hobby.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
I know that a retrofit of a Prius to a 10 AER plugin is 10K, so you’re not far off IF one was available. Right now the plugin conversions, to my knowledge are limited to the 10K conversion. With economies of scale I’m pretty sure Toyota could beat the retrofit handily (lower than 10K or higher than 10 AER), but the test fleet (I think) only has an 8 mile AER.
In short (lol, this is long) GM has the opportunity to really turn things with Toyota on it’s head. As we all have said, they “just” have to get EVERYTHING right with the Volt.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
150 MPG is typical for a PHEV, maybe 170 if you hypermile it a bit – but for how many miles?
In any case, MPG doesn’t really make sense for plug-ins. Remember, the Volt gets infinite MPG for 40 miles. I believe other EREVs will be similar.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt (EREV-40) …….. 37
Prius PHEV-10 …….. 182
Prius HEV …………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
This is why I believe EREVs will easily beat PHEVs. The advantage of a strong hybrid like the Prius is obvious, but the advantage of a plug-in hybrid is not really that much, especially compared to an EREV.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Refer to #26
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Is it, really? You are pulling my leg. Stop that!!!
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
It occurs to me the 40 miles on electric advantage can be blown away by an efficient hybrid.
So for a 200 mile road trip:
Prius @80mpg = 2.5 gallons
Volt = 4.5 gallons
(assuming free electricty for first 40 miles and 40mpg on generator)
Of course this all depends on the MPG in generator mode of the Volt. But if that is a low figure, all the 40 electric range is getting you is about 1 gallon of gas “free”.
Let’s hope the genset mileage is at least 50mpg
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Why wait ? Your new Prius is ready for pickup NOW ! Do yourself a great big favor and get yours today. Come on you know that you truly deserve a Prius today. Just imagine yourself cruising down your favorite highway at a whooping 92.5 MPG.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I have to agree that we would be much better off if we were buying more American made goods. But that is not happening and doesn’t look realistic anytime soon. And, no, I don’t think you are being racist to support buying American. If so, just call me racist and I will smile about it every time.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Dan,
In principal, I agree, but how much $ does a neurosurgen get an hour for driving the 10+ hours it’d take to run through a tank of gas?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Lyle says: “On a 6.5 mile course I was able to achieve 92.5 MPG in the Prius, with reasonable driving style and moving safely with the flow of the traffic. On another 12 mile course I obtained 81 MPG. ”
____________________
Of course, I’m sure this was on a slow speed route (under 45 mph(?)) with very careful driving . . . . but it brings up the question: how much more can Toyota wring out of a gallon of gas with a “conventional” hybrid? What will mpg be on Gen 4, Gen 5?
If a same sized Prius Gen 4 or 5 could achieve a real world 60 or 80 mpg, at some point, does the whole plug in idea become just a nuisance?
/2 years ago I would have said mid 40’s was about all you could get out of a mid sized sedan hybrid . . . now, I’m not sure what the limit is.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
In some situations you could be correct.
But until a BEV is good for at least 50 miles in the dead of winter there is NO WAY I’m putting my wife in one.
My job requires more range than any existing BEV (with the very costly exception of the tesla) can provide.
Our ‘third’ car is my truck, (1997 Land Rover Discovery) it pulls the camper and does the yard maintenance related trips, but I rarely commute with it.
For a BEV to enter my world it would have to be the 4th car.
I’m not prepared to go there. I don’t think I’m alone on this one.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Just ignore all those motorists lined up behind you, giving you the finger ! As well, ignore all those young people laughing at your sled !
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Then we can welcome you to the Fusion Hybrid club…
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
About half the time, my comments get wiped out after I refresh the browser. This is getting old.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Amen2 !
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Regardless of the final figure–even 10% would be better than the Prius’s 0%. And all the R&D and product development was done here. Not to mention the profits and the benefits in terms of selling, other, GM American made vehicles.
Besides GM is building a factory to produce the engines here. LG is building a factory to produce the cells here. What more do you want?
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Now your talking my language. This is so true. Once the Volt exceeds the 20 mile radius than most of today’s hybrids can already give it a severe whoopin. The Volt is really just an expensive grocery getter, if you can wrap your mind around that one. woot.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
OK. I misunderstood your point. I though you were comparing an EREV and a BEV with a larger pack.
However, the reason that this would actually be the right comparison is that the EREV will always have a smaller pack. (The larger pack option that Mitsubishi is rumored to be considering reflects this realty).
This brings us to the crux of the problem: You think batteries are going down in price fairly quickly and I think they’re going down in price slowly. I’d love to be wrong but it’s difficult to see how lithium batteries will go down in price given that 80% of the cost is in the raw materials. I’m sort of holding out for lithium-air because those batteries will eliminate a lot of the necessary material, but that is many years away, assuming it works at all. And of course perhaps EESTOR will work out, though we can agree that this doesn’t seem likely.
Assuming we’re talking about lithium cells, since the cost of the battery pack for the EREV will go down along with the cost of the pack for the BEV, rather than saying that BEVs will have an advantage after day one, I’d say that EREVs will have a cost advantage until the price of a 16 kWh pack drops below the price of an engine (which will also drop in price as they right size it). To me we’re looking at twenty years, which is a fairly long time. And even then BEVs will still have the range issue …
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
What happens if the cat has a steel plate in its head or a metal pin in its leg?
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
@carcus1
You posting links?
Put spaces in a kew p h r a s e real quick. You might be posting something Lyle is working on.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Even with this ‘worst case’ scenario I bet when you look at the real world driving patterns the Volt will come out better.
Most of us drive 40 miles or less during our workday commutes using little to no gas at all. Unless of course you drive 200 highway miles every day in which case I feel bad for you!
I think the genset will exceed 50 mpg, but I have been accused of being overly optimistic on that one.
But the real point is that it doesn’t matter about the genset mileage if 90% of your weekday driving is full electric. It took me a while to get my head wrapped around that one too.
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
My personal opinion is that the Volt will take sales from both the Prius and the luxury car makers. However, until the volume gets up no one will notice. (For a certain but not tiny demographic, the Prius BTW has taken sales from BMW 5 Series and MB E Class — people don’t really but the Prius because its cheap. They buy it buy it because it’s green).
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July 27th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
It might follow the Impala and Malibu trim lines. LT, LT1, LT2 and LTZ, in that order, I believe. Seems to be a common lineup from GM in the Chevrolet brand.
In my opinion, Chevrolet probably should announce three trim lines: base, mid-range and maxed out. What they call each is immaterial. The buying public seems to fall into those three categories pretty easily. Especially since engine size and type differences are eliminated.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
That’s likely a good question to ask prior to installing said charger!
I just don’t want something like that taking up valuble garage floor space!
I’ll have my 220 cord on a hook on the wall.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
And, by that time you will be ready to move up to the Volt. Not that the Fusion Hybrid will be bad, but in time even it will wear out. Good luck, if that is the direction you take. Well, good luck in any case.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
On the Prius, I have studied the drive train after a few beers and I am almost positive that Toyota has a big killer up their sleeves. MG1 and MG2 have enough power to move the car well beyond the 34mph AND at 34mph if they bump the battery they can probably reach 40 AER @ 34mph. But I think the key is some minor space in the drive train that might accomodate a method of disengaging the ICE. If this is possible then I think MG2 can operate as the traction and MG1 is the Genset.
That’s my SWAG, sound crazy? A Parallel Hybrid to a Series Hybrid?
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Good question. Only the individual making the purchase can say for sure.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
I’m OK with that.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Yeah. I wish it worked more like the “clunkers” deal where you got it off the cost of the car at the dealer.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
They just have to get it right, from serial #1.
If the Volt comes to the dealers, and it looks and drives cheap, it will be doomed.
I think (and hope big time!) that they finally get it at GM.
Don’t let us down!!!!!
And you can count me in as a member of the Volt Fanboy Club!!
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
To calculate “actual fuel usage” you also need to consider number of units as well as total miles driven.
The Tahoe, Yukon and Escape hybrids sell only about 1,500/month for all three combined. They also haven’t been available for a particularly long period of time.
Therefore they are much less significant than a car like the Prius.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
It no made of lead. It quality a/c motors.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Thanks Lyle. Those numbers are shocking. The one that stands out the most for me is 92.5 (repeated for clarity).
92.5 
92.5 
92.5 
Wow, I am still having trouble absorbing that rather large numba.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
No links. It’s just there, and next time I refresh my browser my post is gone.
/?
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Monkey Math
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Mari,
It makes sense… but in Volt nation people would rather wait a couple years for the right to pay 50% more (plus take a government handout) so they can drive a car that goes 30 miles on the highway (no AC) and then gets 50MPG (they hope).
Lyle himself drives just over 50 miles/day with no place to charge at work. His 80 MPG Prius number (I don’t believe in posting such context-less numbers, but he opened the door) means he would use about .65 gallons per day with the Prius NOW. Assuming the volt gets 30 miles electric on the highway and 50 MPG highway, he will use .45 gallons/day with the volt + electricity.
Yet he still writes “neither of these cars can be compared to the Volt” even though under his own admitted circumstances the Volt would save only perhaps 50-75 gallons/year over the Prius if he drives his typical commute 365 days. It will be even less of a margin if he drives more than 50 in a given day.
But he will waste 5-10 times that much in fuel PER YEAR (assuming a 30MPG car) waiting for the Volt instead of buying a Prius now!
Reality is going to be painful.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
LOL. Maybe so. From what I’ve read (though not much is out there?!?) it seems to be the best hybrid available overall (not using MPG as the sole measure of best).
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Well how bout this….
I drive 10 miles one way so 20 round trip for work. At the end of the week I have driven 100 miles right?
5days X 20miles = 100Miles
So one month I drive say 400 miles
With the Prius, I would have used 5 consumer purchased gallons. Sounds good.
With the Volt, I have used 0 consumer purchassed gallons.
Let’s take it to a 40 mile one way commute…
40miles X 2 = 80miles round trip
1 week is 80 X 5 = 400 miles per week total
So we have 1600 miles for the month.
With the Prius, I would have used 20 consumer purchased gallons. Sounds good.
With the Volt, I have used 0 consumer purchassed gallons.
what was your argument about again?
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
From the time I first found this site a year and a half ago I had thought about holding out for the Volt. But something is nagging at me and that is how likely will it be available in my area (including dealer maintenance) when I’m ready to upgrade?
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
If you watch the video, Nissan makes it all seem possible. Maybe it is. But only if you “plan” each and every trip. I like a lot of what I saw dealing with charging the battery using a timer function and turning on the air/heat using a timer function. Getting charging status by web or phone was good. It is a start. Someone (a major auto company) has to make a start somewhere. It seems Nissan has decided this is the way to start. OK, let’s go and see where it takes us.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Just because something doesn’t sell as well doesn’t make it inferior. It’s all about perception and marketing. People buy Priuses to show the world how much they care. Supposedly.
I know someone who says that she would like to buy a Prius, but recently used paper plates and plastic forks for the guests of an 8-person social gathering.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
change your email to some arbitrary email like sales@nortel.com
DELETE YOUR COOKIES & CACHE FIRST!!!!
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Which is actually a pretty nice normal looking car to be an EV.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Some people are just never satisfied, Old Man. Not like us “regular” folks.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Well, you ARE the cap’n so crazy is somewhat expected!
Actually I bet Toyota has looked at this too, If the Volt is as big a hit as I think it’s going to be they will need to bring out a 4th gen prius in a hurry, it’ll likely be an EREV adaptation like you suggest.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
No, the Volt won’t have to worry about touching 92.5 MPG. Thank goodness.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Hi CJS, I hope when the plug-in Prius hits the fleet market in very limited supply in December, 2009, we will learn more. Perhaps MG2 will be rated for 105 kW, and the SOC window will be 4 kWh. Once we get this info, then and only then will we be able to compare the Volt to the PHEV Prius-15.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Yeah, we Americans are well experienced with the crap made in China. If you want the lowest price, have it built in China. But, be sure to buy several of them because Chinese made goods are cheap and sorry. After we buying it, the product is not the only thing sorry. We are sorry we bought them.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Agreed…….
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Yeah, it’s a 30% price difference, but over half of that is for the solar roof, which didn’t help Lyle’s evaluation of the Prius at all.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Say WHAT??????????
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Capt Jack,
I assume you have the ability of plugging-in at work in the second example. There is no doubt the Volt will do much better than the Prius in a daily commute cycle under 20 miles one way. I drive 10 miles each way. A Volt would keep me away from the service station for gas for most of the year. I make very few trips out of the commute cycle. A few short 100 mile or so round trips per year and one 1200 mile round trip every year or so. Very acceptable with a Volt.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
You got to hit the submit comment button before refreshing the screen.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
You mean it appears after you submit your comment then disappears later on the next refresh of the screen? Sounds like Lyle doesn’t like you. But, no, Lyle likes everyone.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
“With the Volt, I have used 0 consumer purchassed gallons.”
As long as you can charge at work…Like me!
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
But who in their right mind is going to try to drive 40 miles at 34 MPH? Not me. You will get run over. What I would want to know is how far would it take me at 60 MPH on the interstate driving into work. Or through city traffic at around 40 – 45 MPH. That is about what I do commuting to work.
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July 27th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
The Prius is still king of the Hybrid Hill. The Volt will have its work cut out for them to knock Toyota off their hill. The real question is will the electric-only cars become more popular before the Volt has a chance to build a following. TIme will tell. Also a new energy storage device (i.e. EEstor, SuperCapacitors, etc) could slay the Volt in its tracks and make it an Instant Dinosaur.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
From what I see in this photo – I’m not sure I could tell one from another. Are all the electric’s tested in wind tunnels going to look the same???
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
High quality products? From China? Did you hear about the 40 million HCI has set aside to replace the defective illness causing Chinese drywall they used in new homes? Lennar also put aside 38.5 million for their drywall.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124827419418172379.html
Then there’s the formaldahyde found in children’s clothes exported to New Zealand.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s2009572.htm
Then there’s the pet food, the baby formula, the toothpaste…I could go on….
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
What do all of these “flat underfloor” battery packs do for maintaining the cells’ optimum temperature range? If we think that’s an important thing, doesn’t spreading them out like electric peanut butter greatly increase their surface area? Wouldn’t they require much more insulation than a blockier shape? How exactly would you get a liquid cooling/heating system into such a thin layer?
And what happens if you “bottom out” — ?
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Get in one of those vehicles and get those mpg numbers and report on how much you changed your driving style. That’s what I’ve done and that’s what I base that on. My main point is that the more “normal” you drive these two cars, you have much closer fuel economy than you might gather reading this particular comparison.
Also note that the state of charge on the battery can have a huge effect, especially on short trips. Gen III Prius warms up faster and if you have a full battery and take a short trip you get a false sense of your mpg’s, because you didn’t have the battery at the same SOC when you finished (not saying that happened here, just saying it does happen). The longer (time & distance) and faster you drive these two cars, the closer they are on fuel efficiency.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
“No name” is talking to himself, again. Better watch out …
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
I hope not!
I really don’t like the look of either one.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Hence why I said work toward replacing the existing Silverado/Sierra (the highest volume GM trucks) with the hybrid.
Assuming the following link is correct that’s ~200000 GM trucks year to date ‘june 2009′ combining Silverado and Sierra numbers.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/07/june-2009-top-10-truck-sales.html#more
A LOT of Silverado’s and Sierra’s are bought and worked everyday.
The saving of gas in the real world could be huge.
With that sort of volume the cost of 2 mode hybrid bits just have to come down.
It would one heck of a statement from GM proving they are serious about making things better too!
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Yeah…you and the rest of North America.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Errr…. your numbers are a wee bit skewed there bunkie.
For Lyles 50 mile commute he goes 40 of those miles full electric.
The last 10 he’s on the genset. Refer to post #26 and you will find he will be seeing roughly 250 mpg.
Oh yes, Lyle CAN charge at work so most days he will run gas free.
There is a picture on the Mini article.
I think that’s a wee bit of all right.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Certainly better than most!
The Clio has gotten a lot of excellent reviews.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Just because it’s easy doesn’t make it wrong!
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Our resident troll is extremely active today.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Maybe we should nickname him “Mumbly Joe” then.
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Ya, I know but I didn’t want to leave that one hanging out there…
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
uh,…. yah
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
That works for me.
Maxed out for me! (I LIKE the toys… gimme a break!)
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Lyle:
Put on some shoes. I have a hard time believing you with flip flops… What are you, some kind of pinko hippie????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
And maybe one of Maximum Bob’s pink ties, unless statik has already got all of them…..
Nice house in the background – is that yours???????
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July 27th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
…is not really that much…
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Some data continues to be intentionally left out….
Volt (EREV-10)
Prius PHEV-40
Drawing conclusions for people rather than providing the data so they can make the determination for themselves is clearly bias. We’ve been through this before.
Hymotion offers a upgrade Prius PHEV-25 already. 93.5 MPG is the average reported from the Google mini-fleet using it. Why is data like that still excluded?
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Hehe, the more we talk here…the more we are on the same page. I personally, don’t think lithium packs will drop that fast myself. Sorry if I gave that impression.
In the short term (3-4 years), I don’t think the the raw element availability or the costing to actually fabricate thepack will keep it high…but the insane demand for packs will. I figure the cost per kWh probably stays level for awhile, even those making their own will/would be all too happy for some extra margins while they can get it.
After the first wave/surge is done, I figure maybe pack costs come off 20% or so, but we only see maybe 5%/year after that. I don’t disagree with you either that it is probably more than a decade to see pack costs cut in half.
The only fly in the ointment of trying to predict the future here is we really haven’t seen it scale to any degree yet, especially for the auto manufacturers producing there own. Hard to say what type of margins LG, A123, Enerdel, etc. are actually cooking into these packs in higher volumes. I suspect will won’t be able to get a good handle on it until at least 2011-2012, or when someone comes out with a 2nd gen ‘whatever,’ and the 2nd gen pricing to boot.
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
6.1/100 is pretty darn good for what you are driving around (very nice fit and finish on the Fusion)…thats right around 40 MPG. Nice to see real world meet up with hype…refreshing.
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Improving tech over this same period will mean that more energy gets stored with less material. Smaller, lighter packs will do the same work, or same sized packs will do more.
This will lower costs in ways that have nothing directly to do with the material, or even the manufacturing difficulty. For instance, a car that is lighter overall because of a smaller pack means even less battery material is needed to move it the same distance.
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Actually the Prius makes the most sense if you drive very little. As you drive more the Volt makes more sense. it all has to do with battery utilization. The battery costs a bundle, so if you don’t use it then you’re paying a lot without purpose.
FYI, the Prius doesn’t get 80 mpg under most circumstances, and the longer the trip the lower mpg it will tend to get.
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
The reviewers seem to think the Prius is the more enjoyable car. It also gets better mileage. Between the two attributes better mileage seems to be todays “killer feature”. Therefore ceteris paribus, how long will it take to “pay back the $2000 more up front for a Prius than an Insight, through lower costs at the gas pump?
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Thats a good point.
I’m sure a good portion (maybe as high as 5-10%) of the Prius buyers are strictly interested in buying the ‘greenest’ vehicle, the price is not the main factor.
I think the ‘EV revolution’ does take a chunk from the potential future Prius sales worldwide, as a guess, maybe they sell 50,000 less. How much the Volt specifically takes? I dunno. We have to remember that the ‘price is no object’ crowd that drive the Prius now, may not see the Volt as the next’ most greenest/coolest’ either.
Does 50,000 hurt Toyota all that bad when they are probably still selling 600,000 copies in 2011? No, but a trend is a trend, and if they don’t adjust at all, and ignore it, at some point it might come back to bite them…they risk losing it all if they don’t committ to some degree to this market.
Personally, I think they are insane for not making a EREV or BEV and slapping the ‘Prius’ name on it, seems like a no-brainer. Toyota has all the green cred there is to be given right now, why not take that cred out for a spin and see what it can do in the EV universe. Whats the down side? Maybe, MAYBE worst case is they lose a a few hundred million…the upsight is hundreds of billions to be the leader of the next generation.
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
As far as I know there is no plan to build a Volt (EREV-10).
I don’t pretend to know anything about Hymotion so all I can say about that is if they are not factory authorized I’d stay away.
(maybe they are)
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Yes, my employer has charging parking spots at most of our facilities. I figure the comparison of best cae for best case was a fair comparison.
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Well, considering the Model S was in the wind tunnel also, I would think not. But so far……as I see what’s in production it’s a yes.
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Why are we comparing a base Volt to a Base Prius. It fits in Chevy’s specialty region with Corvettes, Camaros, Tahoes, Avalanche etc. These are vehicles that are north of 35 or 40 thousand or as with the Camaro world beater hot.
As such the Volt should more appropriately be compared with Infinity’s and Acuras. And lacking comparable electric versions of those, perhaps making the jump up to comparing with Lexus hybrids gives a much better status check than does the Prius.
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July 27th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
I’ve personally never seen an electric car charging station in the real world, either at an employer or any retail store etc.
Actually the only electric vehicle I have ever driven was an airplane tug.
The Volt is going to be a very new experience for me!
But this also underscores how important EREV is for a lot of us.
There are no ‘proper’ charging stations in a lot of the world!
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