I recently had the chance to interview Ian Clifford who is the CEO of Zenn Motors (ZNN.V). His company has an agreement to market the breakthrough energy storage units (EESU) being developed by the stealth Texas company EEStor. Although no-one has ever publicly confirmed seeing an EESU in operation, these devices have the potential to disruptively leapfrog lithium-ion batteries for electric cars. They are orders of magnitude lighter and energy dense, can be recharged in minutes, do not appreciably degrade and cost a fraction of what lithium-ion batteries do to produce. The ZENNCity electric car which would be the first vehicle to use these batteries has a 52kwh 250 mile range EESU that would only weigh 280 pounds.
So what’s been going on lately with ZMC and EEStor?
The first event was when EEStor demonstrated their permittivity milestone and then we went through our own independent verification of that particular scientific milestone. And that triggered a couple of things. It triggered our $700,000 payment to make on our technology agreement with EEStor, but it also triggered an option to further extend our equity position with EEStor which we did.
We moved our ownership stake from around 3.8% to around 10.7% and at the same time we also just concluded a 9.3 million dollar equity raise in Zenn Motor Companies. So a lot of different financial and predominantly EEStor-related transactions (occurred) over the last couple of months.
Did the permittivity milestone increase your confidence in EEStor?
Absolutely. According to EEStor it was really the last scientific hurdle achieved and now they’re just flat out working towards commercial product. Absolutely a very very significant step.
As an owner and investor, do you go to EEStor’s facilities and see prototypes?
We are in their facility frequently. We see their progress on a regular basis. We had our own independent third party verification of the permittivity result. We retested all the materials, re-calibrated all the equipment, did a very exhaustive re-verification as it was a significant trigger for us. And a few weeks ago EEStor made the public statement that they anticipate having at-voltage components verified independently by September of this year and deliver of production prototype EESU to us by then end of 2009. That’s directly from EEStor. They made that statement very recently, so it’s very very exciting progress.
EEStor has said that before, even once by the end of 2007, so is this really any different than the last 2 years?
Absolutely. They started their commercial build-out in 2006 and have continued to dramatically ramp up their production capability. Their choice of announcing permittivity was entirely up to them so they made the decision when they felt ready to do that. In terms of progress, the unique thing than Zenn other than Lockheed Martin has is access to the facility and very demonstrative indication of their progress. And we see very clearly where they are at and how they’re progressing. So it’s a somewhat unique visibility that we have on their technology.
Are you seeing an actual assembly line now being constructed?
Absolutely. This is a full production facility here. Often people are saying there is no facility or assembly line, etc this is simply not the case. They’re building a state of the art pilot production plant that is very significant. Lots of people have seen it, it’s not just us.
Is permittivity a value that suggests the material can hold the energy density they claim it can, is that true?
That’s a pretty fair statement. It’s a measurement of capacitance of the material. Once again one of the very significant breakthroughs here is that as a dielectric material there are other materials that have high levels of capacitance but they tend to have very very narrow temperature range, and we had these materials certified from -20 to 65 degrees Celsius. So they’ve created a unique dielectric material and that’s a very very important distinction. It’s a brand new material and it needs to be to meet the energy density and performance characteristics and specifications of their energy storage. They have created a breakthrough unique dielectric material.
You talked about at-voltage testing, in vehicle application are you talking about 300 to 400V?
Actually likely higher than that. EEStor stores their energy at around 3500V. We would step that down to operating voltages likely in the 600 V range. Very very high efficiency drive system operating at much higher voltages than any other current EV drive system. That does a number of things. It increases the drive efficiency, it makes the components somewhat smaller, and ultimately less expensive and obviously for mass commercialization that’s a very important consideration.
So the testing you did was at a low voltage?
It’s a standard permittivity capacitance test on a powder in a matrix. It’s not a high voltage test it is a low voltage test, but EEStor achieved many other important milestones over the past 18 months. Especially directed towards a high voltage energy storage device.
If you read our press release related to permittivity, were very very clear on the other key elements of development that EEStor has achieved in order to commercialize a high voltage capacitor with high energy density.
And as I said before, this September EEStor has stated that they will be certifying at-voltage components which actually are build capacitors off their production facility.
So they’re going to actually demonstrate true truly functioning capacitors, not just a powder?
Exactly. Which has always been their next logical step towards a final commercial product.
In your vehicle you might have a bunch of those capacitors in serial or parallel?
They’ll build up their energy storage devices in parallel, because each component, or building block is very very tiny, it’s a very tiny footprint. It is a 3500 volt capacitor and they will build them up in parallel to create the energy storage requirement that the application calls for.
We can go anywhere. We’ve talked about our cityZenn vehicle with a 52 kwh energy storage device, but we can do anything depending on the market and the application.
Have you actually seen one of the devices functioning?
That gets into the point of non disclosure. Just to be clear, there have not been any production EESUs delivered to us, that’s a very specific milestone, our last milestone is delivery of production equipment. EEStor originally did all of this, their original lab prototyping and everything else a number of years ago. We did our original due diligence back in 2002 and 2003. We were exposed to the original technology then. Right now, we like everyone else are waiting for at voltage components off their production line. And that’s as specific as I will get. And really that’s all that matters.
And right now EEStor has indicated a very very short window of delivery and are working towards that aggressively.
So you said prototypes by the end of the year, but production units not?
No this is a production prototype off of the production line. Once they deliver a production prototype it is a production unit that is production ready.
With all the Recovery Act green grant money, and A123, for example, asking for $1 billion for a battery plant, if this thing is so certain why haven’t you gone out and asked for money to build out a giant EESU plant?
First of all that’s up to EEStor to decide, because we don’t build the EESU. Quite frankly their engineering and deployment costs compared to lithium ion production is so much less, their production facility and ramp up costs are a fraction of lithium-ion. Lithium ion is a very very expensive technology to produce, especially large format. Nobody has really done mass production of large format lithium ion cells yet. Some of the individual pieces of equipment in a lithium ion battery plant cost more than an entire EESU production line. It is much more economical technology to manufacture.
So they can do it with the money they have now?
This initial production facility is fully financed based on the money they got which is great.
What kind of volume in vehicle sper year of EESUs can this plant produce?
In terms of disclosure on that it depends on the size of the EESU obviously.
For the ZENNCity?
We spec’d that at 52 kwh. We may not go to that full size depending on the application as I mentioned. Depending on the market that gives us a250 mile range on a single charge. That’s a lot more than a lot of jurisdictions require. You’ll see. I’m not going to comment on volume right now I know there is a number of analysts who will be covering this story and they will very likely talk about capacity at EEStor. I do not want that information coming from us I’d rather that information come from EEStor directly.
Its very very scalable. Their model which they’ve talked about is they build a relatively small production line which is what is being built now in Austin. They then replicate that line. So they don’t build massive amounts of line. They basically take a small model line and they replicate it over and over and over again to increase volume. And that’s very typical in hard disk manufacturing and other high technology manufacturing which is where Dick Weir and Carl Nelson come from. They’ve been working in that world for decades and they know everything about scalable mass production. Not a big worry from our perspective. They know how to do it, and they’ve got Lockheed Martin involved. They’ve got some really sophisticated people involved in the scaling of the technology, so its not a huge concern for us.
It sounds like the future of your company rides on what they’re doing?
It always has. When I started this company it was all about the significance of energy storage as it related to mass production. It became a matter of choosing the most exciting and viable energy storage possibilities that were out there. We looked at lots of different technologies at the time, and EEStor was by far the most compelling and certainly undoubtedly the most disruptive.
If they start delivering production-grade EESUs by the end of 09, how long will it take for the first ZENN Cities to roll of the line to commercial availability?
Commercial availability is one thing. We’ll have the car powered and demonstrated, and it will probably be a number of different platforms, and applications that well be demonstrating at that time. Our exclusivity covers a broad range of applications including retrofitting any existing 4wheel vehicle. So our intention is to truly demonstrate the breadth of opportunities that the technology represents. We have been for the last 18 months engineering ZEENergy drives and we’ll have a drop in application for what EEStor delivers to us because we’ve been working with them for the same amount of time to make sure what they deliver we can utilize immediately.
Its not going to take 2 minutes, but it will take days as opposed to months to get the demonstrations on line.
So the socket in your car is perfectly configured for the EESU when it arrives?
Exactly. Were building to accept it and their building to fit, that’s always been the intent.
So in 2010 certainly we should be able to see some of this?
Yes, absolutely. It will be clearly be demonstrated around the world in 2010 and commercialization is really jus ta question of how quickly EEStor ramps. We believe well be able to sell everything they can produce. There’s no question there.
How confident are you that this is going to happen?
I made that clear on how I voted with my own money my company’s supportiveness and the amount of support we’ve gotten from the financial community. We’re very confident.
+24
Jul 20th, 2009 (6:58 am)In a related story, the largest team of Sasquatch hunters in the Southeast will soon release photos of the Bigfoot child they captured last year.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:02 am)In all seriousness, this type of technology will be really cool when it becomes available. This would eliminate the battery chemistry/disposal issues and would make electric cars much more likely to succeed.
I hope someone somewhere is working hard on this technology.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:03 am)what!.. we wont be able to say EEScam anymore
Ok, now stand by for the usuals defending the Volt, the Prius or perhaps it will turn into another Lutz thread.
(Quote)
+18
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:06 am)Unicorns of the world be afraid, soon your horns will be harvested for my electric car.
In other news: All other EV programs around the world have been shuttered after being rendered obsolete by this latest press release.
(Quote)
+3
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:18 am)Actually, reading everything Ian Clifford had to say in this interview reminded me of the recent news article:
A British teen from Yorkshire succeeded in persuading British aviation executives that he was a tycoon about to launch his own airline. Using the pseudonym Adam Tait, the smooth-talking 17-year-old told airport and airline executives that he had a fleet of jets.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6719191.ece
(Quote)
+9
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:26 am)Who was it that stated that you can never reach a destination, you cover half the distance, then half the distance remaining, ad infinitum… But you never truly reach your destination? I feel that way about EEStor. It is like fusion power, we are always 20 years out, or in EEStor’s case, it is always “next year”.
But what if they CAN do it? A cheap 10 kWh device that allows the Volt to go 45-50 miles without using a drop of gas… But you really wouldn’t need or want the ICE if it works, because the storage device would be able to store so much energy so cheaply and recharge so quickly…
It would change the world in a fundamental way, energy would be generated by each nation, or even by the individual, rather than imported from OPEC. Changes like this seldom occur, and EEStor has all the trappings of an elaborate con, but damn, it would be sweet if it was true!
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:35 am)I ran out of energy to make more ironic Haiku’s for Eestor (and their sidekick Zenn), a long time ago. But, in breaking news, I just finished a fuzzy-logic computer program based off of an old spambot that just generates these ironic haikus specifically about EEstor called The Eestor Bot. Here is some of its recent work:
Zenn and the art of electricification of the automobile market
Eestor runs on air
Hotter than the solar gas
Infating my claims
Sure, the program output is lame. But don’t blame lil’ Eestor Botty, garbage in is garbage out.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:45 am)My main uncertainly about EEStor is cost. EESUs may end up being a lot more expensive than Lithium batteries.
When they do a cost comparison, they only talk about the cost of raw materials. The real cost will have to do with the purity levels required.
For example, silicon comes from sand. How much does sand cost? It’s literally dirt-cheap. But silicon chips require very high purity levels, so they are relatively expensive. The large amounts of energy and production time required to produce this high purity make it expensive.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:47 am)They tested the material from -20C to 68C. That’s a pretty weak temperature range. -20C = -4F. It dips lower than that for several days a year in many parts of the US. 68C = 149F, which is surely hotter than anywhere in the US in terms of ambient air temperature. But does it get hotter than that under the steel hood of a car sitting in the sun? I don’t know for sure, but I do know that the hood itself sure gets a hell of a lot hotter than ambient air temperature on a hot summer day. Seems to me like they need to be running temperature tests over a much wider range.
(Quote)
-2
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:49 am)Even if they have a cheap, rapid-recharge energy storage device, the infrastructure for rapid-recharging does not exist, so they will still have to wait as the wall socket trickle charges their vehicle for several hours.
The gasoline / diesel EREV is still the best near term solution, even if it uses EEstor energy storage devices.
(Quote)
-4
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:49 am)Batboy lives!
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:52 am)I want to use this technology in my notebooks. We are looking for 72 hour battery life. This looks like a winner.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:53 am)If they had something viable, they would have asked for a grant just like A123 System did. Besides, voltages of that magnitude is extremely dangerous and unforgiving and it DOES NOT belong in cars of today. But,the power companies could use such a power storage unit…. it just NOT for cars!
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:54 am)A couple of these and a good gen-set will run any Hybrid without any batteries .
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/modules/bmod0094-75v.asp
These are for real , they are not pixie dust .
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (7:58 am)Do the guys running this thing have a track record of scams? That’s usually an indicator.
(Quote)
+3
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:00 am)“Absolutely”, “very very”, and “lots of people” are phrases frequently used when one has a weak argument.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:01 am)Many have said it before – the flux capacitor at last.
Energy in a Cap = 1/2 CV^2
Let’s do a million Volts – that’ll level the playing field.
Thankyou DirectTV
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:03 am)I think they’ll find that the Bigfoot child prisoner is actually the blood sucking Chupacabra. Many are known to range in that area.
huzzah?
=D~
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:07 am)Capn Jack
How would you convert 3500VDC to 600V(ACorDC)? Expensive all by itself.
(Quote)
+4
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:07 am)I want to believe
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:14 am)and “always.”
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:25 am)Yea, I can see Lutz now, he was so proud of Lihium-ion…
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:26 am)I love reading (and writing) the skeptical, mocking statements about bigfoot, unicorn horns and all that. Its so much fun. However, if we were to have a reasonable and somewhat practical discussion today, I think Jason brings up the right topic.
If (a big if) some technology were available to rapid charge a huge battery or other magic storage device (say anywhere from 16kWh to 100 kWh), what would it take to make this practical? How soon would we be able to implement something at current gas stations to make them “recharge stations” as well? How soon would we be able to implement something at home?
Maybe we just gather a barn full of old car batteries and have that energy ready. Maybe there something to the flywheel idea. Maybe we harness lightning somehow. Any thoughts?
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:38 am)Interesting! We’ll just have to wait and see…
Thanks for the info.
Here is a tour of the Ceramic Fuel Cell Limited facilities in Melbourne, Australia. Like EEStor they are using a ceramic powder (in this case Zirconium) and a screen printing process however they are making make fuel cells whereas of course EEStor will be making ultra-capacitor stacks. There is some footage of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta7RpOwQYbk
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:41 am)I would love to use one in a plug in prius mod
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:54 am)Man this is big news!
4-6 month clock started, if eestor does not come out, i will stop following eestor.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (8:56 am)Isn’t Zenn based in Ontario, Canada, where the recent $10,000 government subsidies were announced? Maybe this subsidy was geared more towards Zenn, rather than GM?
Interestingly, going to Zenn’s web site, all the contact information is via e-mail. No address or even phone numbers that I saw… sort of like what scam artists do.
And is EEStor a scam? Who knows. I’d love the technology to be real, but the the years of promising something great being just around the corner is wearing a little thin.
(Quote)
-2
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:01 am)Their model which they’ve talked about is they build a relatively small production line which is what is being built now in Austin.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:03 am)Agree on the grant request. The way you make money is by using someone elses money, not your own.
Todd
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:06 am)You know, the thing of it is, I can see EESTOR being a scam, but I can’t see why a separate company like Zenn would buy into a scam. Zenn must be truly convinced, or they must be complete fools. I find that life works out better for me when I do not assume that others are complete fools.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:07 am)Charging at 3500 V would be possible with special covers etc. Probably you dont know, but your old CRT TV set is utilizing 20 000 V for electron accseleration. Therefore 3500 V charger is possible. Question would be about safty measures/isolation control.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:07 am)Hey, I live in Texas and everything is bigger in Texas – including the scams, lies and idiots. Personally I’m with a bunch of others – I’m from Missouri, the show me state.
Todd
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:09 am)If the batteries are smaller/lighter/cheaper than lithium ion, then why not have extra batteries charging, that could be swapped when needed?
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:14 am)Good reporting Lyle.
Based on the above comments, some think Ian Clifford is scamming us. May I suggest that you use an educated doubter as a correspondent? Put Statik on this guy. Maybe he can get Clifford to confess.
(Quote)
+3
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:18 am)Heck, were I Mr Lutz I would have sided with Li-ion too… it actually exists!
IF these magic fairy dust super-duper caps become available for real they can easily integrate them into a volt sized pack.
But for now he remains right.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:18 am)Who knows, maybe this is the truth. If so, the only real contender against hydrogen power. My laptop would love this too.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:20 am)Even if the battery development and disposal destroys the enviroment. The EREV is the best alternative! The $20/barrel of oil is the best alternative.
(Quote)
+5
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:20 am)Who wouldn’t want to believe?!?
As a physicist & elec engineer who’s observed two other technologies, viz, solid state physics (large-scale integrated circuits) and magnetic storage (computer hard drives) both scale up their complexity and/or storage capacities by well over 100:1 in only a few decades, I want to believe that increasing the energy storage capacity of large banks of Barium Titanate capacitors could also be improved by 100:1 compared to today’s art….. but it’s extremely unlikely to happen in the few years Weir & Nelson have been working on it.*
There are several very tough fundamental problems confronting them, for example:
1) Barium Titanate’s (or any capacitor’s) breakdown voltage is heavily dependent on voids or tiny imperfections in the dielectric itself
2) With thousands of capacitors in parallel (needed for the EESU design) there are thousands of potential single-point failures
Number (1) will require, almost demand, that each capacitor be literally “grown” from the atomic or near-atomic level, i.e., make use of advanced nanotechnology to eliminate all imperfections —this would be an inherently time consuming manufacturing process & needs to be repeated 31,000 times!
Number (2) will demand that each of the 31,000 parallel capacitors employ a robust microscopic ‘fuse’ —to isolate it in the event it shorts yet be able to withstand extremely high currents when the EESU is being fast charged.
I want to believe these and other problems can be overcome, but my perusal of the patent (which does NOT reference a credible “reduction to practice” model of the claimed 52KWh device) leaves me very skeptical. For anyone interested, the patent has been published at this link….
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7033406.html
*Remember that it took many, many researchers 50-60 years to improve these technologies by >100:1; can Weir & Nelson do something very similar by themselves in a few years? I doubt it!
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:20 am)I can rub my feet along the carpet and generate 20,000 volts.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:21 am)Would you want to take government money after watching what happened to the banks, GM, and Chrysler? I think not. The government is out to take control of everything beware of federal money right now.
(Quote)
+3
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:25 am)I’ll wait till late 2010 maybe early 2011 to get highly emotional
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:26 am)I was thinking the same thing – I have a 120V, 15 Amp circuit in my garage, so I don’t have a concern about charging my Volt with Li-Ion batteries. With the EEStor batteries, I feel like I’d have to put 240 V, 30 Amp service to my garage.
Another option would be some type of intermediary storage system that charges during the day (at higher rates), then rapid charges the EEStor batteries at night.
Nonetheless, I think any technology breakthrough will be impractical at first, until we learn how to make it practical.
(Quote)
-1
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:26 am)+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:26 am)It seems to me that you would need two super-caps.
One in your car and one (twice as big?) in your garage/where ever, the land based pack would charge slowly through line voltage/wind gen/solar cell/etc… that you have available at your location.
Then you roll the car into the garage, hook up the cable do the safety checks, stand back and press “GO” on the charge button and the land pack dumps the accumulated charge into the car all at once.
I think something like this would work quite well.
Now the COST to set that up is quite another issue.
(Quote)
-1
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:27 am)With the breakthroughs in hydrogen alloys and a less than 7 year window for production ready fuel cell engines for mass production (or so they say), and with the horrific environmental damage done to mine, develop, and dispose of lithium-ion batteries, one can hope this is real.
I am with Todd, show me. If you show me, I WILL buy stock. I also don’t blame EEStor (if what is develops works) for keeping this hush hush. They are banking their financial future on developing this and owning the rights to all the tech. Standard practice for all companies in EEStor’s position.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:28 am)Lutz will be standing Marine straight and tall, depicted stepping out of a vehicle and wearing a crisp pink tie when this issue is decided!!!!!
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:33 am)How soon would we be able to implement something at current gas stations to make them “recharge stations” as well? How soon would we be able to implement something at home?
1) Next week, if owners see a market and strongly BELIEVE.
2) In my home – never.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:34 am)Higher Voltage does NOT make it more dangerous.
If anything it actually makes it a bit safer since the higher Voltage means lower current and it’s current that kills, not Voltage.
I’m NOT advocating licking the terminals to see if there is a charge present mind you…
The shock you get from the carpet in your house can be several thousand volts, and it’s harmless.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:36 am)I’m guessing you’re not familiar with the thousands of volts running through your ignition system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_coil
(Quote)
+3
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:38 am)Zenn Motors chief seems very confident. I hope his confidence is justified by production units that are put into vehicles that the public can purchase. If so, the world of automobiles will take a drastic change for the better. I really hope so.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:39 am)Stepping down voltage isn’t a problem, doing it efficently is the trick.
(Quote)
+4
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:42 am)The Lithium Ion battery wasn’t invented five years ago. It began in small applications with big power needs, like cellphones and laptops.
If you have a limited (even when ramped up) production capability, and you can make either 10,000 laptop EESUs, or one 52kwh EESU, the economic pressure to prove out the technology on a smaller scale is going to be overwhelming. Sure, look for a public demonstration of automotive EESUs, soonest; but look for the 52kwh electric Zenn-powered electric in your showroom lastest.
Of course, the Volt (and every other electric car) would greatly benefit from a high-power 1kwh EESU energy buffer for regeneration and peak power requirements, which would greatly reduce the strain on the lithium energy-storage and EREV generator portions of their drive trains. I think this is the likeliest first venue for the EESU in an electric automobile.
You know, if this is all for real.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:42 am)Granted in an insulated pack, like the Volts, that temp range is likely just fine.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:42 am)Great report, Lyle. You really got some good information this time. A lengthy interview filled with little facets of information.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:45 am)While I agree we should remain somewhat skeptical of EEStor based on previous history, we should also hope they will be successful and that it will not prove too expensive to produce that it could never be massively successful in the marketplace.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:46 am)To be fair though adding that service to the garage is only a couple hours and a couple hundred bucks.
There is nothing to it. I have done it myself. (my father who is a master electrician supervised)
I DO recommend hiring a pro to do the panel ‘tie in’ for you but this certainly isn’t rocket science.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:50 am)“If (a big if) some technology were available to rapid charge a huge battery or other magic storage device (say anywhere from 16kWh to 100 kWh), what would it take to make this practical? How soon would we be able to implement something at current gas stations to make them “recharge stations” as well? How soon would we be able to implement something at home?”
I think you are saying that because we could not implement the fast charge infrastructure right away it would be useless?.. This is not a good argument against change, so what if it takes 20 years to build more nuclear plants and beef up the infrastructure?.. you gotta start somewhere. In 20 years most houses will have a roof lined with solar panels anyways.
The other thing people dont realize that once this becomes overwelmingly practical (300 mile packs, 100kwh capacities, cheap, death of ICE cars) most people will rarely recharge the pack quickly, they simply wont have a reason to do it .
If you had a device that made gasoline in your garage from water and electricity, but very slowly, you would use that device to fill up your gas tank 99% of the time.. even if it could only make 1 gallon of gasoline a day. We think in terms of fast refueling but that really is just a habit we got into in the last 100 years.
You will not see many commercial fast charging stations for this reason, there just will not be enough demand to warrant the investment.. at most you will see a handful of stations on the highways in between major cities.. maybe 1000 at most. You will see slow rechargers at all public parking spaces.. preferably wireless.
We dont need to change our infrastructure, we have most of what we need already.. the addition of millions of batteries will also help by smoothing out power demands so perhaps we could even REDUCE the power generating capacity of the whole country once we go to electric vehicles.
Next topic.. we are just moving pollution from the tailpipes to the electric plants.
(Quote)
+4
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:54 am)This is a succinct explanation of the issues. A lot of people think the idea is workable in theory, but it’s a very big step from a laboratory experiment to full commercial production. I’d love to be wrong though.
IBM’s work on the lithium-air battery seems more promising, perhaps in part because there is more caution and almost no hype about this research. However, with a theoretical capacity of 13kW/kg, and costs which would be much lower than the lithium batteries on the market today (because it uses air rather than metals on the cathode), you can imagine a fairly low cost lithium-air pack weighing less than ten pounds powering the Volt or cars like it.
There are even more interesting advances on the biofuel front. At a scientific conference (no stealth needed) this spring, Mascoma presented a breakthrough process for producing bio-fuel from biomass in one step. Since extracting the desired sugars and carbohydrates from the molecules which protect them is the only major hurdle for biofuels, a single step process using synthetic microbes that does exactly that could dramatically reduce the costs of producing biofuels, making it likely that such fuels could compete with gasoline in the near future.
http://www.tjols.com/article-1365.html
Just looking at the rate at which these technologies are progressing, my guess is that we’ll be able to fill the Volt with biofuel long before we are able to buy one powered with an ultra capacitor or a lithium-air battery.
(Quote)
-4
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:54 am)Agreed on the power problem. 3500 volts with all that power storage in a car is not very safe. Crashes would get interesting. Working on the car could be lethal without training and special equipment. First responding emergency crews would have to really think twice about pulling you out of the wreckage. Precious time would be lost as they get out the proper gear, ground the chassis and discharge the capacitor. Not to mention whatever happens when one of the electrical connections falls off or insulation is compromised on the high voltage leads while driving. There are a lot of engineering hurdles to cover before a roadable, saleable car can be a reality… assuming the EESU ever does happen.
(Quote)
+5
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:55 am)I’m rounding up all my unicorns and lollipops and locking them in their barn. Let’s just say I’m not optimistic that EEStor will pan out. It’d be great if it does, but (other than verbiage) no demonstrable evidence.
Be well,
Tagamet
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:58 am)Yeah, Lyle and Statik can play good cop, bad cop and I’ll provide the bare light bulb! LOL
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:58 am)Assuming these do appear for real (I HOPE they do, but I’m left feeling skeptical)
I think you are absolutely right, they will first be used as buffers which will bleed the power back to the main battery pack at a controlled rate.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (9:58 am)That’s great. Now all you have to do is put some carpet strips down beside your car and start charging it by rubbing your feet across the carpet strips. Really great idea. Wonder if anyone else has thought of such a novel idea? LOL…..
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:04 am)Even if this technology doesn’t pan out, clearly one of these advanced concepts will. When they do the current crop of hybrids and EVs will look primitive in comparison, and all the talk of “range anxiety” will be moot.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:05 am)they build a relatively small production line…
_________________________
Mr. Clifford called it a pilot line. I hope it can be relatively small like you said. Their facility in Austin isn’t much bigger than a Qwikie-Mart…Doh!!!!!!
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:05 am)I recall that being a sport zapping my sister using the lovely green shag carpet in my parents home… Ah, memories!!!
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:08 am)They have a true synergy. It puts food on the table without them having to work 9 to 5 for “The Man”, and without yet having a product to sell. Nice job, if you can find one.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:09 am)“Number (2) will demand that each of the 31,000 parallel capacitors employ a robust microscopic ‘fuse’ —to isolate it in the event it shorts yet be able to withstand extremely high currents when the EESU is being fast charged.”
Individual currents will be low for each cap, but since the caps are massively paralleled then it builds up as a total pack current… fuses are well understood and not an issue. If you have 3500 volts, and you need to extract 150kw of power then each cap would only see a current of 1.3mA.
The reliability issues are not so critical, also due to the nature of having many caps in parallel.. in other words you have no “single point failures”. If 20% of the caps fail then your total pack capacity would just drop by 20%.
Dont ask me how much an automotive sized 3500vdc/150kw inverter would cost.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:11 am)The one persistent thorn in the EEScam scenario is the continuing participation of Lockheed Martin.
Is it possible that this major defense contractor has been duped? With full access to facilities, one would doubt it.
Are they so desperate for something which can power futuristic weapons like high-energy lasers and coil guns that they’re willing to take a huge chance?
Or is EEStor actually the declassified form of an existing, but publicly unknown technology?
This is the 40th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing. The computer in an Apollo capsule was the first object that most of us would recognize as a computer: made from integrated circuits. As someone who was alive at the time, I can report that the explanation for this breakthrough was the overwhelming need to perform a critical orbital calculation behind the moon, out of radio contact with Earth. Pretty cool they were able to cook something up for that, huh (especially considering all that this technology led to)?
About 20 years ago, they came clean. The integrated circuit technology had been developed years before Apollo, and in great secrecy, to provide the guidance systems for ICBMs. Someone once said that NASA was the white face of the dark (classified) world, and that seems to be the case with integrated circuits.
Maybe this is too theatrical for your tastes. I’m just saying that Lockheed Martin is a powerful hint that something other than a scam is going on.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:11 am)Isn’t there codes that limit the circuit size for residential installations? Something like 220V / 50 Amps (about 10 kW of power). So the fastest you can charge a 16kWh storage device is 1.6 hours.
By “quick charge”, I mean a couple minutes. So to make this practical, either the codes would have to change to allow that energy to be drawn off the grid, or there would have to be some other energy storage system at home, or some combination.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:15 am).and we can use A123 cells for “quick charging” electric shock.
What about the soundtrack? Electric Avenue?
…I know, poor taste.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:17 am)From the interview:
Q: Have you actually seen one of the devices functioning?
A: That gets into the point of non disclosure.
In other words, NO.
However, I can’t see why a company like Lockheed Martin would have a stake in EEstor unless they’re for real.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:19 am)I agree 100%, Don! Although I’m not an expert on biofuels (and I couldn’t get your link to load for me), I see EESU, with only Weir & Nelson working on it, as needing a “giant leap” …..while biofuels, with many researchers working on them, only need a little “nudging”!
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:19 am)Come on guys… the ignition coil in your existing car fires a spark somewhere in the range of 80-120 thousand volts. Voltage is not a problem.
We carry multiple gallons of gas in buckets under our cars and don’t worry about it all that much. (ever since the Pinto went away at least)
The Battery/Capacitor packs will have similar safety considerations
Any large scale cap/battery pack will need to have a safe fast safetying device.
This would effectively just be a wire to short the terminals to safe the pack (if required) but likely in a bit more controlled manner than a dead short.
Of course this device would have to be developed and tested, but it’s far from a showstopper.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:20 am)Definately not saying “slow charge” is useless. I agree most people would change their habits and slow charge. However, people pay a premium for convienence (that’s why gas stations / convienence stores stay in business). And I don’t think BEVs will win over the typical American until there is a convenient “quick charge” capability. That’s part of the beauty of the EREV.
BTW, I agree we need more nuclear plants. I wish the government would stop the spending spree and focus on getting that done (encourage / allow private investment and streamline regulations)
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:22 am)All very logical. Interesting choice of examples though since Wier and Nelson helped to obsolesce the second one. Reference the earlier use of magnetic tape of course.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:24 am)Why doesn’t EEstor ask for federal money?
Because their technology isn’t even ready yet. There’s no way the government would give EEStor any kind of loan if they didn’t at least have a fully functional prototype. And on top of that, accepting federal grants would require them to provide the kind of transparency that could undermine their technological advantage. Right now, EEStor is far from becoming a household name — and I think they’d like to keep it that way until their product is ready to show to the world.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:25 am)Don’t forget Ian Clifford/feel good car was involved in a water powered vehicle scam. water in-water out.
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/06/10/HydrogenElectricCar/index.html
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:25 am)Assuming EEStor appears and is reasonablely priced I posted below with a workable solution. IMO of course.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:28 am)A storage-intensive infrastructure would make it much more economical to use the cleanest technologies for electricity generation.
Consider the inconstant nature of most “renewable” sources: sometimes the wind blows, sometimes it’s calm. The sun only shines in the daytime, and even then, useful conversion happens only if there are no clouds. Time and tide waits for no man to turn on his air conditioner.
What if these widely scattered power sources, and even local substations, could buffer power over time from intermittently available sources (with stationary, dedicated batteries)? The kinds of ‘baseline’ power plants we need now (the most expensive to build, but cheapest to use) may become less necessary, so that we would only operate the ‘clean’ ones.
Of course, compared to that requirement, the demands of Zenn and all the other carmakers together are a drop in the bucket (even with P2P).
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:28 am)I also found the lower end of that scale alarming. -20C (-4F) is no stretch for here in WI — it’s typical for a couple of months every winter!. And we’re by no means the coldest place anywhere.
However, I did have this sunny thought. If it’s certified through that temperature range, doesn’t mean its performance completely disappears a degree (or 10, or 20) outside that range. It just means that’s the range it’s certified within. And who knows how rapidly performance drops outside that range? Maybe very little or not at all (one might hope!).
Also MuddyRoverRob’s point is valid. “Outer” insulation of the EESU will play a role in this as well, no doubt.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:29 am)I love these threads!
Cost is DEFINATELY the big question for implementation of any of this. (Again assuming EEstor actually shows a working product)
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:32 am)If EEStor is real, it will be the last nail in the coffin for fuel-cell powered cars.
Period.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:32 am)But doesn’t Zenn have an actual product? Why would they invest in a total scam?
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:36 am)Based on what’s said even here, I don’t think Zenn seems that independent, actually. They’re (Zenn and EEStor) are placing a lot of risk on mutually dependent issues.
But Lockheed Martin? That one still stumps me a bit. Maybe they’re just making a “cheap bet,” which could really pay off, but they can easily afford to lose?
The next year or so should be real interesting (man, I’m gettin’ tired of saying that).
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:38 am)Ultracapacitor Bus is in service in China
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPXIjRB9mIU
Professor Joel Schindall of MIT’s Laboratory for Electromagnetic and Electronic Systems discusses how his work in developing a fast-charging, long-lived ultracapacitor can provide significant improvements to today’s car battery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCReQJvc0E8
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:39 am)“Why doesn’t EEstor ask for federal money?”
They’re not too big to fail …yet.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:51 am)To all our readers up north: Don’t throw out those block heaters just yet!
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:53 am)They seem to.
http://www.zenncars.com/
Although to be fair I’ve never actually seen or touched one of these little cars.
Of course everything on the net is real, right?
Have you seen or driven one Lyle?
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:53 am)Just like the Flintstones!
(Quote)
+6
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:55 am)$20 barrel oil is the worst thing that we could hope for, because it’s only temporary and could derail the electricification efforts.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:58 am)Emergency crews are already receiving training regarding electric vehicles via hybrid extrication training.
I personally am more comfortable around the batteries than gas tanks. As a liquid, gas has a mind of its own and tends to go places it should not in wrecked vehicles.
The batteries that I have seen so far all have master breakers or fusible links tied to the airbag sensors. Kill the main battery and you know the thing is not going to blow up or flash toast you, your crew, and the victims. It is actually very nice.
The scariest part is not the electricity, it is that determining whether or not the propulsion system is dead is much more difficult. ICE cars are easy… no noise, no go.
If an EV or Hybrid no longer has a dashboard, you still can’t be certain that the car will not take off if the accelerator pedal is pushed without some sleuthing first. Killing the battery “safes” the car of course, but during the initial rescue survey, it is a little spooky.
Regards
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:58 am)Heh heh, I fully expect my Volt to run the genset a fair amount during ‘cold snaps’.
I didn’t plug in the old Malibu a couple -28c mornings last winter… it started, but made it very clear that it was ticked off about not having the heat added…
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:04 am)If EEStor is real it may be the first nail in coffin of the whole trasportation as we know it from cars to cargoships and probably airplains. But I still think so far EEStor like unit still belong to SiFi novels rather than 21 century.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:05 am)Need to give them until November 2010, if it is real could be a Volt Killer. Nissan will then buy company and lockup this tech.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:07 am)Actually these questions are addressed in the interview. Clifford says that the whole production process is much less expensive than producing lithium batteries.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:09 am)Why do people think this is bogus? Based on what evidence? There is no evidence to suggest that this is a fraud. They’ve got Lockheed Freakin’ Martin as an investor.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:10 am)Yes, people are working hard. There is this company outside of Austin that is working real hard on it. I forget the name…
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:11 am)Zenn has to be in on this scam
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:11 am)By the middle of next summer we (might??) have a good idea if EEStore is a scam or not based on the above quotes. And we also know that GM has had some contact with EEStore about their ESU.
Knowing that the 2ng Gen Volt might have an EEStore type ESU might be enough for me to put off the purchase of the Volt until the 2nd Gen. This assumes I can afford or be able to get a hold of a 1st Gen Volt anyway.
But I wonder how many other people might put off their purchase of the Volt known the 2nd Gen might have a ESU that charges in Minutes(If you have a big fat power cable available.), Might get more range (Though GM is pretty addament about the 40 mile Thing). and would last the life of the vehicle.
The catch 22 is if everyone is waiting the the cheaper better 2nd Gen their might not be enough demand for the 1st Gen to create the 2nd Gen.
Just some ranting!!!!!
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:11 am)The blogger with the bag overhead, pumper for EESCAM/Zenn…was spewing the crap EESCAM was to apply for funding from the DOD. In order to apply for the grant you had to submit prototypes…EESCAM did not have one prototype to submit.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:12 am)I would keep this close to the vest as the Auto industry is littered with backstabbing thieves. Why do you think most cars use very similar designs. They routinely steal from each other.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:12 am)Bre-X looked pretty real too.
It’s getting close to put up or shut up time for these guys.
(Quote)
-2
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:12 am)It would also appear that by the end of 2010, the gub’mint will begin formulating a plan to tax us based on the number of miles we drive, and where. All thanks to you people and your fuel efficient cars…
http://www.roaduserstudy.org/
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:12 am)Thats the beauty of the scalable type of production lines they are talking about. Once they have a proven production line, they can duplicate it solely for Zenn, with others solely for Lockhead Martin, others solely for phones, laptops, large scale power storage etc.
They just modify each line to match each products desired output.
(Quote)
-1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:15 am)It would be awesome if all you joke-crackers and snarky insulters actually had presented some evidence and made logical arguments.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:16 am)I would love to see this awesome tech licensed by Zenn , Tesla, Nissan, Toyota and perhaps one more company (not GM). This has the potential to make the Volt obsolete before it even hits the road. Schweeet.
(Quote)
-5
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:18 am)Purity is irrelevent in this application. You are comparing apples to oranges.
(Quote)
-5
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:20 am)No guarantee GM would get to use this type of technology in any of their hybrids. They may just fold their Voltec due to inability to compete in the marketplace.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:22 am)It smells like a perfect scam. ZENN which is publicly traided company increases it’s stock price by providing this “updates” on the EESTor. EEstor gets their share. If couple years from now the EESTOR comes out and says that they failed. This will be considered as an honest mistake on the part of ZENN (wow we had now idea! and “lost” money on it). This is why ZENN guys will NEVER confirm that they saw a working prototype (becouse this would be a lie and they could be held liable for this when the EESTOR shop closes) The EEstor guys than just liquidate and start something new making something even more interesting, since nobody really know who they are and where they live. As far as Lokheed is concern, those guys have resources dedicated to investing is such long shots, just like pharm companies buy number of smaller startups without even an approved or sometime effective products, just to improve their pipeline or get exposure to a new tech.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:24 am)Oh yes! Life is built upon such wonderful memories.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:24 am)Do you really need a quick charge in your garage? Right now you cant fuel up a all at home. I think charging overnight will be good enough. This would be a good scheme for a quick charging station though. Charge up a very large EESU overnight for plenty of quick charges during peak demand.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:25 am)I’m on the fence on this one.
On one side I really like the idea of being able to ‘fill up the tank’ in 5 minutes.
On the other side, assuming you had a REAL 250 mile-ish range in the pack, then slow charging at night means you have very few restrictions in an urban environment. Since anyone short of a busy courier is unlikely to exceed 250 miles in a given day within a city.
Another factor leaving me holding back is the fact that we do get a real winter, and I’ve had a LOT of batteries die/freeze over the years in the winter. The Volt has a genset to get me through/home even with a sick battery pack. That Safety factor is worth a lot to me.
Having said that, this sort of range were it to become real ‘might’ have a shot at getting me to try a full “CEV” (capacitor electric vehicle, A NEW Acronym!!! JUST what we needed here… LOL!)
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:25 am)THIS IS A DISRUPTIVE TECHNOLOGY !
I am sure executives phones are working overtime with contingency planning as the potential for this technology spreads like a worldwide tsunami. Everyone working on this in Texas will become INSTANT BILLIONAIRES. woot.
(Quote)
+5
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:26 am)Still hype maintenance. Until I see a functional unit, I will treat this as hype.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:27 am)When I see a working prototype I’ll believe it. Don’t get me wrong if they do have an actual product that can do what they say they can I will happily eat crow. Until then I’m calling BS. They have been saying just wait til next year or the end of this year too many times to be believed.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:29 am)Zenn is a publically traded Canadian company that actually sells low speed cars through dealerships mainly located in the US. They are a real company, not a scam – but EESTOR is their ticket that they are betting everything on to go from a small time company into the big leagues.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:30 am)Very good points.
The electrical cut off issue already has a solution.
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1908/Battery_Disconnects
There are many similar products.
Of course you would have to test with the given system.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:31 am)Don’t know if this was said but I think the real solution is to install a EESU energy pack(2-3x size of car pack) in your garage that stays charged and use that to charge your car :-p It could be a grid buffer.
[/tongueincheek]
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:35 am)My guess is that they are working on something, But it’s not anywhere near being remotely ready, and the odds are 99% that it will never actually work.
In other words, it’s like J&J or Pfizer’s investments in new drugs. Most of the time it never pays off. But if it does, it could pay off big time. The difference is–J&J and Pfizer invest in many many drugs, which increases their odds of coming up with something good. It’s way too expensive to do that with something like EEstor.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:36 am)For those interested, here is a sample of the available rescue information regarding various hybrid systems:
First attempt at link posting… here goes
New Vehicle Extrication: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid
(Quote)
-3
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:36 am)Why do people think this is bogus? Based on what evidence? There is no evidence to suggest that this is a fraud. They’ve got Lockheed Freakin’ Martin as an investor.
_______________________________
ROLFL!!!!!! What did PT Barnum say. Hold on it will come to me!
Can’t recall. Any way let’s say LM wants EEstor units to power it’s new tools. Maybe a series of ever more lethal death-rays for example. Look at the typical weapon of long range mass destruction. Does it need to fit under the hood of a Volt (hope not).
Would it need to be as inexpensive as a hammer sold to the Pentagon. (likely not, for this exotic one off, government paid stand and deliver or end of our way of life application).
Would those specs work too well in a Zenn mobile? (Nope)
Is any one with power needs more in line with vehicle applications aligned with EEstor?
Oh yeah, now I remember what PT Barnum said
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:39 am)Based on that logic, you should have stopped following them years ago
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:40 am)“The Lithium Ion battery wasn’t invented five years ago. It began in small applications with big power needs, like cellphones and laptops.”
No, it began with military applications. Mid 1980’s.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:41 am)EEscam is really going to have to come up with a good excuse this time. I’m guessing a fire or a spy plot. Dick Weir probably feels like Bernie Madoff right before the hammer fell.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:43 am)Well it would make Electrification of most automobiles a heck of a lot more likely.
it’s STILL effectively a battery (an electrical energy storage bucket) It will not be used to power Airplanes or ships because they have nowhere to recharge the cells. (40000 ft or the middle of the ocean)
There MAY be and likely is a “Hybrid” type usage possible in ships, (a cargo Prius) but I’m struggling to see how it could be employed efficently in an aircraft.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:43 am)How can I invest in this plucky young man’s vision
(Quote)
+3
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:43 am)If there is a car God…
EEStor and deliver us.
=D~
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:46 am)Bernie Madoff run his scam for decades, and if you ask how could managers of all these funds of funds not be suspicious? IMHO, it is rather simple: if they got paid really good, why should they care if it’s legit?
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:47 am)No NO!!
Hold off GEN 1!
That way I can get MY GEN 1 VOLT!
…I gotta cut back on the coffee…
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:54 am)Editting myself. It’s too expensive for GM/Ford, etc. to invest in enough things like this to increase the odds enough that one will actually turn a profit. And, there probably aren’t that many lottery ticket potential technologies out there in this particular space. And, basically, that’s generally not how their R&D generally works–although they have bought up smaller start-ups in the past for their tech when the situation called for it. But they don’t have the resources for that kind of thing at the moment.
Obviously, it’s not too expensive for Lockheed Martin which is why they’re involved. Or Zenn, for that matter, although for them it’s probably more about moving the stock.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (11:57 am)I took the question as how not so much ’should you’ but rather HOW would you.
Having said that someone living ‘off the grid’ would likely do well with this sort of setup. That same cell would likely run their house power requirements as well.
It also has the possiblity of making distributed power generation IN the city plausable. If you had say 10000 houses in a city with storage cells that tied back into the grid charged from whatever power source was available at that location, after their personal Volts were charged up the surplus power could be routed up to the grid likely to compensate for the morning power use spike.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:01 pm)No Jason. If this EESU is a reality it changes the world as we know it. I’m not holding my breath.
About the quick charge stations? All you need is a few more EESUs at the station. Slow charge them 24/7 and direct connect them to the vehicle EESU and you are ready to go in less than a minute. I still recommend a robotic connection system or swap-station for safety reasons.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:05 pm)come on guys, lets give them a chance, probably its a scam…probably not, for me, i got nothing to loose, i won’t invest my penny thats for sure…
i say if ever that technology is proven true, military would scram to get it by hook or by crook…
i was so excited when this EESTOR breakthrough first thing came out, followed and waited and frustrated….until i lost any interest about this..
but wait! theres more!…believe now and will give you another two years of frustration to keep you hoping….just add another wasted time for processing…
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:07 pm)Monroe,
You are a believer.
That’s great!
I think if you get past the sarcastic bits you will see there is an overwhelming desire for EEStor to be the real thing. It COULD be the next best thing since sliced bread!
The problem is that for MANY years now they have been saying “any minute now” and it hasn’t appeared.
Anything left hanging out for that long starts to smell.
The aroma is getting pretty strong.
The fix? A real working prototype that’s what.
Anything less will continue to smell.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:08 pm)You chop it then filter it. That also needs some filtering capacitance.
How efficient can it be made? Well, if you need to DC convert 3500V to 600V, that means you have acces to EEStor technology so what’s an extra cap in the bucket going to cost?
I said “if”.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:10 pm)I was thinking along the lines of a group at the MIT battery labs or equivalent legitamate research facility when I hoped that someone was working on it.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:11 pm)use one of those energy saver fluorescent bulb, its greener.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Posted my version of this @7!
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:23 pm)LOL!
THAT my friend is a bit ahead of things.
Voltec can be adapted to large applications, a pure storage solution (BEV, EEStor, etc) just isn’t going to be practical for heavy trucks and the like.
IF EEStor does surprise the hell out of us and actually produce something, and it DOES do what they say it will (long bet…) then they could make large inroads in the ‘city car’ market.
I would happily buy my Volt with EEStor cells in it were they available.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:24 pm)Who said that? Zeno.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:30 pm)We used to have pump jockeys… maybe we’ll have them again.
For a while… then you’ll pump your own like we do now.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:33 pm)The problem is that EEStore has been making extraordinary claims on the Internet for years and years…. I think I can speak for all electric/green car enthusiasts when I say that we’d all be very happy if they delivered.
But, speaking for myself, I can cite a few other examples of people making extraordinary claims on the Internet that are just crazy. Like the Moller Air Car people. Or any number of conspiracy people. Or the people who are hoping that their webpage will cause aliens to contact them, who were featured on a recent This American Life.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:38 pm)Monroe said:
Why do people think this is bogus? Based on what evidence? There is no evidence to suggest that this is a fraud. They’ve got Lockheed Freakin’ Martin as an investor.
=====================
History & logic. Multiple blown deadlines, everything they do is a ‘complete secret’, no prototype, and the fact what they are suggesting they can do would change the entire world overnight…and the HQ is in a low rent strip mall.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:48 pm)“You would make a ship sail against the winds and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? Excuse me, I have no time to listen to such nonsense.” Napoleon to Robert Fulton regarding the development of a steam ship.
Every time a truly disruptive technology is developed — people can not fathom how it works. I am hoping that this is the case with the EESU.
I, like many of you, have seen the EESU public unveiling pushed back year after year, But I will confess that the labrotory tests that have been completed, and the fact that ZENN has tripled down on their investment, has me more optimistic than many of you.
I believe that we will see a demonstration of two different applications of the EESU technology by January 14, 2010. First, I believe that we will see a Zennergy drive system installed and working — using the EESU 52KWH pack. I also believe that we will see a man-portable pack that provides power to radios, GPS, and other accessories of the modern warfigther.
The EESU WILL NOT provide the power for our next generation directed energy weapons. But they may be part of the solution to store energy in future all-electric Navy ships and submarines.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:51 pm)To qualify as awesome tech it has to actually exist.
It is an exciting bedtime fairy tale (complete with fairy dust!) though.
If it turns out the fairy is real I will happily admit I was wrong.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:55 pm)Warning…Conspiracy theory
If all claims are true, EEStor could be a very disruptive tech. Not only for transportion…but military, space travel, energy production, etc. The possible amount of instability might be enough for the US government to keep it to themselves until the government deems it “safe” for the rest of the world.
The US government would probably request EEStor to progressively scale the release of the tech. In other words, the storage device would be “slightly better” than the best battery for the 1st release. Everyone will buy it…then next release would be “slightly better”. It makes everyone happy…no unbearable disruption…and EEStor makes a profit on each release for several years.
Laptop batteries alone could bankrupt a few companies.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:55 pm)I agree with you Nasaman, I understand the idea and the concept behind it, and I can even see how it is possible they could maybe get a working model after many, many attempts…but practically I just don’t see the feasibility in any application for the general public.
Just how many hours does it take to manufacture each working, stable unit, and what is the cost? $100,000? $200,000? lol. I’m guessing it isn’t anywhere near $10,000. Making a ‘one-sie’ and making a saleable product are two entirely different things.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:58 pm)Color me skeptical, but I would expect these materials to exhibit a large degree of saturation, meaning, that the permittivity at high voltage will be significantly smaller than at low voltage. Thus, the amount of energy storage at high voltage will be significantly less than one would predict using the low-voltage permittivity.
In other words, they are not revealing the key data which would indicate how these things would operate under working conditions. That leaves an element of doubt in my mind at least.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:58 pm)#19 Gary said:
Interestingly, going to Zenn’s web site, all the contact information is via e-mail. No address or even phone numbers that I saw… sort of like what scam artists do
=============
EEStor is a scam, but Zenn isn’t (they are just the suckers that bought into EEStor). I have actually been to their factory (Zenn) when I went to Quebec for business, and have zipped around in their product. I would buy one…if my stupid Ontario government would let me plate one for the road.
(Only a NEV, but you have to take what you can get right now)
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:04 pm)That is hilarious, I have not heard that phrase before (EEscam) I was laughing so hard my co workers almost turned me in for a drug test. One thing they got on Madoff is the stock market crashing won’t end their sharade. Did Zenn have Stock in Bernie’s company too? Their product is about as real as Bulkhead Remover or 10 foot of chowline in boot camp. What is that thing they do in Asia when they lose all self respect, Hari Kari, Ian don’t do it we all mistakes… We’ll save you a Volt to calm your nerves.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:06 pm)If EEStor is real, and can do what they claim, the entire world changes. The destabilization of power both literally and figuratively would be enormous.
Don’t get me wrong, if I am allowed to daydream about it being real, many thousands of great, great things would come to pass, leading us into our very own Gene Roddenberry, Star Trek utopian future…but that is something I’m just not hot wired to do.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:07 pm)I hope your rosey view is correct.
I have my doubts though.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:11 pm)Perhaps there is some potential there.
What would it cost for 16 kw of storage? How much room would be required?
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:18 pm)My principal point being, EEStor was invented five years ago (as far as we can tell); yet it’s going to start out powering an automobile?
When I said that Lithium Ion began in small applications, I meant “we can see it — touch it” — actually available to consumer applications. If you go all the way back to the military applications (which frankly, I didn’t know about), then you’re only reinforcing my point: it took almost 30 years before Lithium Ion technology was ready to power highway capable transportation. How long will it be (after LockMart is done) before EESU’s can do that job?
This even pre-supposes that everything we’ve heard from EEStor is correct.
(Quote)
-3
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:22 pm)Game changing tech. Bring it on. Makes Voltec obsolete. Full Electric here we come…yes.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:28 pm)Which is crazier, this conspiracy theory, or that all these independent verifications are not a conspiracy and this research company led by credible people is actually working on an ultracapacitor? Hmmmm
(Quote)
-3
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:31 pm)As a city manager I can assure you we are looking at creative ways to provide a value-added tax to upcoming vehicles like the Volt. This tax will provide an additional revenue stream that all cities are looking for. You can never have too many revenue streams. Thanks for your support.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:32 pm)Several million dollars and about a bus worth of space..
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:33 pm)I’m no electrical engineer (don’t pretend to be!) but it sound like you are talking AC power. The power flow from a battery or storage capacitor will be DC.
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:35 pm)I’m not a “believer”, I just don’t strongly disbelieve because it seems fairly credible. Look, the arguments of the detractors are not based on science. That is probably because few if any understand the science. You only say “where is the working consumer product huh??!!” There have been independent tests of the parameters needed for this to happen. At the very least, you should attack EEStor either on the basis of the scientific theory or on the credibility of the scientists who have performed the tests, whose identities are available. I mean they have independent tests from actual PhD scientists, what do you have?
(Quote)
-2
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:36 pm)Very nice technology. We can use this now. Lithium batteries are cost prohibitive.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:36 pm)The government found barium titanate traces in the remains of the UFOs that are stored in Area 51.. they think they know what it was used for
(Quote)
-2
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:37 pm)Look, the arguments of the detractors are not based on science. That is probably because few if any understand the science. You only say “where is the working consumer product huh??!!” There have been independent tests of the parameters needed for this to happen. At the very least, you should attack EEStor either on the basis of the scientific theory or on the credibility of the scientists who have performed the tests, whose identities are available. I mean they have independent tests from actual PhD scientists, what do you have?
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:38 pm)what horrific environmental damage done to mine, develop, and dispose of lithium-ion batteries are you talking about? .. some of these batteries are even safe to eat.
(Quote)
-1
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:40 pm)Get real. This is so far beyond A123 it is just mind boggling.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:43 pm)“We used to have pump jockeys… maybe we’ll have them again.”
They’ll be made by Honda and Matsushita Electric.
(Quote)
-3
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:45 pm)If EEStor has production high-voltage instant charge storage ready by end of 2010 the Volt will be in danger, mark my works.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:45 pm)Hmmm, Li-ion looks pretty good from there…
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:47 pm)Absolutely!
One in your Toy, one in my Volt etc…
funny enough though, vapours don’t hold a charge very well…
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:48 pm)LOL!
(Quote)
-3
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:48 pm)EEStor is very very good technology. The timing for production is perfect to sync up with all those EV vendors due to come online at the same time.
Get you stock now, I can smell a delicious IPO. Yummy.
(Quote)
-3
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:53 pm)EEStor FTW !
(Quote)
+1
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:55 pm)I wish them the best because it could save mankind from certain doom.
That was a bit melodramatic but what the heck. I thought there were enough negative comments today already.
Seriously, though, this is a game changer and would change things forever. The next big step will be the development of the ZPM or its analogue.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:57 pm)Well at this point we have nothing but a lot of talk for a lot time.
Usually in life this means that there is nothing behind the talk.
One can find a PhD to backup any claim you may want to make.
If it sounds like a duck and acts like a duck it might very well be a duck. This duck is starting to sound pretty vapourous.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:59 pm)Even if EEStor is the perfect, enabling technology for the 21st century, and even tastes good on a Ritz cracker, it’s going to take time for the technology to do it’s whole world-changing thing.
They’re already building windmills as fast as they can, even though that field is exploding.
How long did steam power last after practical otto cycle engines were demonstrated?
How long did farmers continue to plow behind horses and mules after traction engines appeared?
There is such a thing as inertia, economic as well as physical. It may take decades before EEStor can fully replace existing technologies.
You know, if it’s for real.
(Quote)
Jul 20th, 2009 (1:59 pm)This could explain some of the new equipment I was issued a few years ago. I always wondered why they have no batteries.
(Quote)
-1
Jul 20th, 2009 (2:04 pm)If true, this company will rule the world.
Yeah Baby.
(Quote)
+2
Jul 20th, 2009 (2:07 pm)Without PhDs and independent tests, we can still judge by behavior.
This is not a university research project manned by self-denying ivory tower savants; it’s a pair of private companies hoping to make a lot of money. I can’t imagine a legitimate scientific enterprise behaving the way that Zenn and EEStor have. The scientists would wait until they could explain more fully what they are doing before making a press release (EEStor / Zenn appear to have made press releases solely for the excitement of potential investors). At best, the individuals you refer to are not driving the boat.
Cool your jets, Monroe. If you’re right, none of this speculation will matter. At this moment, we’re limited to what is actually known, which isn’t much. I’d like to see something like EEStor work out. In the end, we’ll just have to wait and see.
Again.
And probably again after that …
(Quote)
+4