It is being reported that General Motors has chosen the site where it will assemble Chevy Volt battery packs. They have not officially announced this but sources indicate a press event is expected within a month.
The Chevy Volt is dependent on its state-of-the-art lithium-ion battery packs for propulsion. The 16 kwh packs are composed of lithium-ion manganese large format cells that are being supplied by LG Chem in Korea. GM had previously announced that it was using its special learning from Volt development to achieve in-house core competency for pack assembly. Besides the cells, the packs are composed of thermal management systems, electronic controls, and proprietary software
GM had previously stated it would eventually choose a location in Michigan within which the packs will be assembled.
According to anonymous GM sources the facility has been chosen. It is an existing building that will be converted into a battery pack factory for $43 million. The facility is the 370-acre Brownstown Business Center industrial park, which is between Sibley and King roads east of Interstate 75 in Brownstown Township Michigan, about 15 miles south of Detroit (see map).
The plant will produce 100 jobs. Most of the pack assembly process will be automated.
LG Chem’s CEO has previously announced it was his company’s intention to eventually build a battery cell production factory in Michigan as well.
And the launch of the Volt moves one step closer.
Source (Detroit News )
This entry was posted on Friday, July 17th, 2009 at 3:38 pm and is filed under Battery, Production. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Jul 17th, 2009 (3:39 pm)As so it begins!
Nice to see some forward movement!
gm-volt.com rocks!
(I almost mentioned that I got the first post but thought better of it…)
+7
Jul 17th, 2009 (3:47 pm)OT.
Those of you who read this why not drop a comment here to Lyle in showing your support for this (his) website.
I clearly intend to continue staying with Lyle.
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:15 pm)Lets see, 100 jobs at $50,000 each on average works out to 5 million in labor cost to produce “X” battery packs per month. Lets guess 5000 packs per month (60,000 Volts per year) or less than $85 per pack.
Now the embedded cost (43 million) for the facility probably has a 10 year life, or about $75 per pack. Now lets guess at the operating and maintence cost, minus labor, to be twice the labor cost, or $170 per pack. Add it all up and the cost to make the battery pack comes in at $350 per pack.
Now are these guesses even in the ball park? I doubt it.
-1
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:22 pm)Did you put in the cost of the cells in the pack?
+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:23 pm)How long will it take for the plant to be operational?
+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:28 pm)Great report Lyle. Bet you won’t see this report on ChevroletVoltage.com. Not for a while yet. Lyle, don’t worry about us leaving GM-Volt.com for the GM branded site. It just ain’t gonna happen. Sure, there will be some going back and forth, but so what. You have a devoted and loyal group here. Well, most of us anyway.
Again, great article. We know you are working hard to bring us good news. Thanks, again.
+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:28 pm)Ditto from me.
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:29 pm)Well, you went about it pretty logically, though.
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:38 pm)I would think in less than a year. Depends how much special purpose equipment has to be designed and built and when that started.
Responding to LazP, I for one have already complimented Lyle. His site is easy and informal. I would be willing to bet that his relationship with GM will continue and he will be happy.
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:45 pm)Excellent! Soon the circle will be complete.
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:48 pm)What is not said is–
+ Is this the price of the building?
+ What is the price of the equipment?
+Is there a refurbishment cost of an
existing building?
+Training cost of the 100 people?
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:49 pm)Keep on truckin’ … I mean lightweight highly efficient compactin’
Doesn’t have the same ring to it.
+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:49 pm)AMEN!!!!!!
+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (4:55 pm)That might be the incremental cost for assembling the pack. (Also $50K seems low). But that wouldn’t include the cost of the cells or the electronics. It would also not be the full costs of the assembly. For that you’d have to depreciate things like the building and land as well as all the time needed to plan the factory.
Costs are a seemingly simple concept that can be maddeningly difficult to calculate in real life.
+6
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:02 pm)Staying. I read it everyday. Thanks Lyle.
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:03 pm)http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1020347_2013-chevrolet-volt-ss-the-next-model-in-our-dreams
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:22 pm)Hey.I thought they already had the plant up? What were those videos of when that green goblin guy was talking about the batt pack a few threads back?
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:22 pm)Yes, I feel much safer with lithium power cell power packs than with gasoline.
So how close is the new battery assembly plant site to this?
http://jalopnik.com/5316090/detroit-i+75-bridge-collapse-mega+gallery?skyline=true&s=x
http://jalopnik.com/5316229/metro-detroit-i+75-explosion-caught-on-tape-as-it-happened
+6
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:22 pm)Ditto. I enjoy reading about other EV options. And Lyle is more objective than a GM PR person.
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:32 pm)I’m really glad that most of the work will be automated. Hopefully, this means that the UAW won’t stop GM from automating in the future.
Yes. It’s important that the US create jobs. But they need to be sustainable jobs. Artificially creating jobs through using outdated manufacturing techniques creates a long term competitive disadvantage. And that could ultimately destroy US industry.
Besides, using automation is the best way for a high wage country to compete with a low-wage country.
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:48 pm)I definitely agree that the UAW should be pressuring GM to embrace robotics in all assembly areas. There should be a guarantee of jobs for all current workers, however. The actual cost of labor per unit is actually quite low regardless of what the anti-union talking heads keep spouting. America having no health care for its citizens is the real burden on American companies and competitiveness.
It is with robotics working together with our well trained and highly motivated US workers – the most productive workers in the world – that we can take back our leadership in manufacturing. The American worker will outperform any other country with a level playing field and robotics would be the equalizer.
Let’s go GM! Real jobs for Real Americans (not illegals thank you).
As to the battery assembly plant opening, GM needs to get a move on if it expects to have 10,000 vehicles by next November.
-8
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:48 pm)Why does GM feel the need to waste “our” tax payer money on a website? Get real GM you just went bankrupt. It would be nice to do a lot of things if you had the money. Lyle’s site is the best to promote your product because it can compare and contrast, something you can’t do without a hint of bias. If there was a need to get info out that this site was not providing, then by all means make your own. Lyle is running a 1st rate site here, yours will only be second best (and full of corporate BS). It truly is Government Motors… file this under the Office of Redundancy. FYI GM, Grass root campaigns can turn against you in a heartbeat. The Volt better deliver!
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:51 pm)Late last month, the grass-roots EV advocacy group Plug In America, based in Santa Monica, denounced the Mini E program as “botched.” BMW’s muddled rollout of the Mini E “makes the whole technology look like it’s not ready for prime time,” says Chelsea Sexton, a member of the group’s advisory board.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-neil17-2009jul17,0,493059.column
+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (5:56 pm)Yeah, automation is the way to go. I came from 10yrs in mfgr. Automation helped bring cost, reliability and quality to a constant improvement.
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:13 pm)CJS on the Mini E — interesting link, thank you. Looks like most of the issues revolved around getting the garage charging systems approved and installed, rather than the Mini E itself.
-1
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:19 pm)It sounds more like they “Assumed” the home charge stations were going to be just approved by the Underwriter Lab…..NOT.
+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:19 pm)After about 2 years of reading almost everything posted here I’ll DEFINITELY be logging onto gm-volt.com (although I’m also very busy with 6-8 hrs of daily coast-to-coast conference calls)! ….And whenever I can contribute a comment/question that I consider truly useful, I’ll continue doing so!
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:34 pm)A completely unrelated thought:
I wonder if Glade will be getting into the electric car business.
“Plug it in, plug it in..”
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:43 pm)I agree, I will go back and forth but this will remain my #1 go to site.
+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:50 pm)Same here, I must get my GM-Volt.com fix everyday.
+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:03 pm)Ditto for me to.
I log on every morning to get my fix with my cereal…
I LOVE THIS SITE.. and all of your comments..
It is truely an education
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:06 pm)GM needs to get the word out to as many as possible and weather we [at least me] old coots like it or not this is where many of our younger buyers will become educated on the Volt.
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:17 pm)100% off topic, and I apologize in advance for taking advantage of Lyles informed user site.
So, the cash for clunkers program has a very fuzzy wording about eligibility, and I was hoping one of you smarties would have an answer.
My question, can I just go buy a used car and use it as a trade-in for a new car?
Here is the official wording of the:
“has been continuously insured consistent with the
applicable State law and registered to the same owner for
a period of not less than 1 year immediately prior to such
trade-in;”
So, as long as the car has been continuously licensed by ANYONE or must it be the person trading it in?
I believe that the govt intentionally kept this vague, and will adjust the wording depending how successful the program is. This will guarantee the program will be successful (at least from the govt’s view)
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:18 pm)Hey, someonw said the same thing about a year ago on this site. Kind of catchy, isn’t it?
-4
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:36 pm)I’m confused. Is the Volt a Japanese (via Hitachi) or Korean (via LG) powered. I know for a fact that the Volt is NOT American powered. This sounds like a lot of smoke and mirrors, nothing new here, lets move on.
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:38 pm)The Mini is Rock Solid. It is a BMW, so what do you expect. This is NOT an American car. ’nuff said.
+7
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:38 pm)It’s THE BEST place for tech fun and, the most important place for learning in context with what the other OEM’s are (NOT!!) doing.
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:43 pm)I done heard that the Official Volt web site will be run by Fox.
At least we know it will be fair and balanced.
Hallelujah.
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:52 pm)A few threads back was
The Battery Research Laboratory, which does all the testing of all kinds of different batteries every battery maker wants GM to look at for possible contracting with GM in the future.
But above is the Manufacturing/Assembly facility of the LG cells into packs with the heating, cooling, and balancing stuff that’s for the finished production battery.
-1
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:56 pm)Actually the battery is not the power source, just basically the gas tank.
You can filler up with good ole American made solar power, if that tickles your fancy.
-2
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:01 pm)It was the jingle ideas that were posted here.
Mine was the old country song
PLug it in….
(its around my office somewhere….)
Here it is.
Sung to the tune of “Plug it in, plug it in”
Plug it in, plug it in,
Plug it in, plug it in,
Take ‘er out for a spin,
With that gas savin’ grin,
Plug it in, plug it in.
Plug it in, plug it in,
Plug it in, plug it in,
Take ‘er out for a spin,
It’s so quiet within,
Plug it in, plug it in.
Plug it in, plug it in,
Plug it in, plug it in,
The war on Carbon we’ll win,
Petro-war is a sin,
Plug it in, plug it in.
Plug it in, plug it in,
Plug it in, plug it in,
Let the healin’ begin,
From this bas scene we’re in,
Plug it in, plug it in.
Plug it in, Plug it in,
Plut it in, plug it in,
It aint made a no tin,
The best a parts are within
Plug it in, Plug it in.
by Dan Petit Austin TX
-7
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:02 pm)Just got back from an 18 month covert op in the Middle East. The average American doesn’t have a clue what we are really doing over there. Anyway I have no clue what has been happening stateside. Wow, things sure have changed in the last 18 months ! GM failed, Government bailing out everybody and their brother. Double digit unemployment. Supreme court taken over by Hispanics. White House taken over by a Mulatto and his minority minions. MJ dead. I am not sure this is the kind of Change I Can Believe In. May be a good time to pack up the family and move to Europe for a while. And what exactly is this Volt about ? Electric Car ? Yeah right.
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:12 pm)I don’t recall at the moment who the original artists are.
(spelling correction at: “bad scene we’re in”).
+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:14 pm)Thank you for your service. I am glad your TDY was covert as most Americans do not have the stomach to accept what it takes to keep our freedom.
+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:21 pm)i dunno why, but this website is like my morning coffee…
i can’t start my day without it…
+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:22 pm)The CEO from CPI (the company that builds the Volt packs today) puts the Volt’s battery pack cost at $8K.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html
Specifically, he says:
• First … the ratio of end-of-life to beginning-of-life is 75%.
• Second, the AT application is sized for a 70% depth of discharge…
• Third …
• Fourth, a vehicle pack battery pack has non-cell costs such as a monitoring system.
All four of these items together justify a 2.5x premium for the AT application (or approximately $ 1,000/available kWh) …
The first two points make clear that he is talking about available energy, and not total battery capacity. 75% (for end of life) times 70% (for depth of discharge) is 50%, which lines up exactly with the 8kWh on the Volt. $1,000/available kWh times 8 available kWh = $8000.
The fourth point makes clear that $1,000/available kWh includes the pack overhead, and not just the cells.
+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:22 pm)I have never commented but regularly visit to keep informed.
Thanks, Lyle, keep up the good work.
I’ll keep up with you.
+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:50 pm)I have it on my favorites, and check it out everyday! I will plan to do the same even after I purchase my Volt! I am sure there will be lots of information on how everyone’s Volt is performing in their different environments around the US!
+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (11:33 pm)I looked at the GM site, but I saw no reason to go back. If anyting interesting ever does show up there I’m sure links will be posted here.
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:01 am)So, in other words, GM (and presumably Ford and Chrysler) should buy and install expensive new equipment, so that they can then pay UAW workers to play poker.
+1
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:10 am)It has to have been registered in the name of the person receiving the credit for at least a year.
The window is less than a year so you can’t get one today and wait a year to qualify.
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:13 am)It has to be registered and insured to YOU for 1 year prior. So you could buy a clunker and hope the program is still around on 7/18/10.
“and registered to the SAME owner for
a period of not less than 1 year”
+4
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:15 am)Or you can fill ‘er up on good old american coal fired Electric. Mined fresh in PA, and converted over in your local metro area. If that makes you more comfortable.
+2
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:19 am)Love this site. Visit every day.
-1
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:21 am)We could stop using 25% of the worlds oil, then their would be a whole lot less to stomache.
Unless you really believe Saddam or Osama were/are “threatining our freedom”. I’m more worried about the Patriot Act, but thats just me.
+3
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:46 am)The Chinese battery manufacturer BYD, the one which Warren Buffet was so happy to invest in, doesn’t use much automation. It’s claim to fame is that it has broken down the manufacturing process into very simple steps so the batteries can be manufactured more or less by hand.
Given that 70% or 80% of the cost in in the raw materials, automation may not be the best answer. Automation usually makes the most sense when labor has a very high value added compared to the raw materials.
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:50 am)green goblin guy?
CJS, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:53 am)…but look at all the batteries in the Volt, isn’t that dangerous.
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:56 am)Check this out just for some perspective of the amount of money being thrown at lithium battery factories in Japan for EVs and hybrids. Now this is serious capital:
Hitachi – $310 million total by 2015
Toshiba – $220 million – $330 million
Blue Energy – $250 million (Honda / GS Yuasa)
Lithium Energy Japan – $20 – $30 million
+1
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:59 am)can someonw explain why it takes 8 hours to charge the volt?
120v x 15A = 1.8KW
8KWH (usable capacity) / 1.8 KW = 4.4 hours
240 x 30A = 7.2 KW
8KWH (usable capacity) / 7.2 KW = 1.1 hours
even if you add 10% for resistive losses this is far from the 8 hours at 120V and 3 hours at 240V charging times that I have seen quoted by GM.
Jul 18th, 2009 (1:00 am)Yeah, it’s sad isn’t it.
Just kidding about poor old / new Gm. Anyone that wants to appear professional has to have their own web site.
+2
Jul 18th, 2009 (1:48 am)That works for BYD because they manufacture in China where labor costs are still very low. It wouldn’t work in America where labor costs are extremely high.
Automation makes sense wherever it saves money and/or increases quality over manual labor. Regardless of the percentage of the cost involved.
-2
Jul 18th, 2009 (3:13 am)I do not understand why they do not have a vendor park at the Hamtrack facility to assembly pack?
Why have a remote off site facilty – other than to get an invesment insentive in the millions for GM, but logistically this is all nuts.
Do not understand why GM does not aim for the most efficient manufacture setup as their “new “goal.
Remeber GM the product (Volt) has to be manufactured efficiently with out cutting corners so that GM and the consumers all win – That must be the future.
Otherwise you might as well close down US manufacture and employ all the GM people to drive imported cars off car cariers from the PRC, eg like wallmart fills it’s shelves with currently while closing down western manufactures who invented it all and in the end it will bite us all.
Jul 18th, 2009 (3:15 am)The Volt’s charger draws 1.2 kw at 120 VAC or 3.3 kw at 240 VAC. Thus the stated 8 hour charge at 120 VAC or <3 hours at 240 VAC.
Reference slide 18 of : http://www.narucmeetings.org/Presentations/Stanek%20PHEV_Nov08%20-%20final90.pdf
Jul 18th, 2009 (3:28 am)From other manufactures it also doesn’t work out as you have theoreticaly worked out.
Usually 4-6 hours 240V, 8hours or more for 120V.
Possible reasons:
1 The charge rating must be slower for the batteries to absorb.
2 Possibly the charger does limit current draw to prevent taking out your houses circuit. Your standard Amperage draw above would normaly apply to a circuit – not just one dedicated powerpoint for full load that most houses/garages have available. – You want to run your plasma / lcd tv – or open your garage at the same time right.
In Australia a gararge power point setupo for a decent air compressor is 240V 15Amp with a wider earth lug which very very few households currently have, 30Amp is basically commericial / industrial use like in a factory & then the majority is 3 phase at that scale, so these may be the reasons why.
+2
Jul 18th, 2009 (5:55 am)If it takes longer than a year to get this new battery plant up and running, I don’t think it will matter that much.
I’m pretty sure CPI is building all the packs for the IVERs and pre-production vehicles. I wouldn’t be surprised if they end up building some of the early production packs as well. In other words, I don’t think getting this new battery plant up and running is on the critical path for Volt production.
Same is true for the Volt’s ICE production plant. Right now the 1.4L gas engine is being built by a GM plant in Europe. If the new GM engine plant in Michigan is not up and running before Nov. 2010, it won’t really matter. GM will use the European built 1.4L engines until the Michigan plant goes online.
+4
Jul 18th, 2009 (5:57 am)It goes without saying – a fantastic site.
+4
Jul 18th, 2009 (6:16 am)I check it daily – the most up-to-date site on the Chevy Volt.
Jul 18th, 2009 (6:30 am)I one interview, Frank Weber from GM stated that the Volt’s battery pack at 220 VAC will charge 50% in the 1st hour.
I believe that when the battery pack is at its low point (30% SOC), it will accept more amperage, but as it becomes more fully charged, the charge rate tapers off.
I have a small battery charger with an ammeter, and my lead acid car batteries charge in the same manner.
+2
Jul 18th, 2009 (6:33 am)Thanks greatly Dave G.
That link to greencarcongress you gave for that CPI interview with Dr. Patil was extremely helpful.
The technical information Dr. Patil gave was absolutely exceptional in that his explanations for CPI’s overall technical rationale and approach was the most classical overview for AT (automotive traction) battery applications that I’ve ever seen.
But I would never have gotten to it (time buries all this great stuff) if it were not for you and for Lyle’s terrific site.
The very strongest of deep appreciation and “thanks” once again to you and Lyle!!
Dan.
Jul 18th, 2009 (7:30 am)Guys, if read it right, it really never says it needs to be registered with the buyer for a year, just that it has to be registered for a year.
I believe this is to stop persons from buying from a junkyard, which would not have previously been junked and therefore unlicensed and unregistered.
The wording leaves it open for interpretation.
+2
Jul 18th, 2009 (7:38 am)I believe another significant point to note here is the production capability.
Last year, GM made 35,000 Corvettes on one assembly line, working only one shift. For one shift, 5 days per week, 8 hours per day, 50 weeks per year, this equates to 2000 hours, or about 18 Corvettes per hour coming off the assembly line. One every 3.3 minutes. I’ve been to this plant and seen these cars made, and it is truly a remarkable process, with coupes, convertibles, and Z06 models all built on the same assembly line.
Now, let’s look at the battery plant. If GM makes only 10,000 packs in the 1st year, given a 2000 hour work schedule, this equates to only 5 packs per hour. For 100 workers, this means 20 workers laboring for an hour to complete one battery pack. This is insane! No need for automation that I can see here.
However, with automation, still working just one shift, I envision that GM can easily make 100,000 packs (50/hr, with multiple assembly lines). By working multiple shifts and weekends, this number could potentially grow to 400,000 packs per year!
My first point here is that automation usually doesn’t make sense unless you have high volume manufacturing, and it appears GM expects to go in this direction.
Second, in order to have high volumes, you need large sales. And with the potential volumes that GM can make from this plant, it likely means that Volt production is expected to be at least 60,000 units per year after the 1st year, AND that other Voltec products will be forthcoming.
+4
Jul 18th, 2009 (8:06 am)It’s great to see expressions of solidarity and support for Lyle’s efforts. To me it’s a perfect example of one person making a huge difference. Lyle’s efforts took a concept car and massaged it into the vehicle that will not only be produced but will also help move us forward on so many levels.
Hang in there Lyle, and thanks again.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 18th, 2009 (8:19 am)So, here’s the dealo.
Volt price OTS: $40,000
Plug-in rebate: $-7,500
Cash-for-clunker: $-4,500
Install new “energy efficient windows in Volt”: $-3,000
Replace heater/ac in Volt with new energy star rated heater/ac: $-3,000
Total price: $22,000 (Now that’s I price I can afford!)
PS: Maybe you buy your Volt from CJS and bribe him with a couple bottles of rum, and he gets you another $2,000 off the MSRP, so now your talking $20,000!
-6
Jul 18th, 2009 (8:54 am)The key word here is assembly plant. They will not be making the battery here. The 3 volt batteries are made in Asia at high quality manufacturing plants using advanced techniques that are currently beyond new GM’s capabilities. This plant is basically a glue factory that will be gluing hundreds of these 3V cells and shoving them in a T-shaped container. That’s it folks. Pretty much a brainless operation requiring low wage personnel. The heavy lifting for the Volt is all done across the pond using intelligent labor force.
+3
Jul 18th, 2009 (9:18 am)This had better be a local union plant !
Be advised, we have French professionals that can bring the heat if we need to.
-1
Jul 18th, 2009 (9:48 am)There is only ONE VOLT WEB SITE..
-4
Jul 18th, 2009 (9:49 am)This be hundread jobs we need. we do job can and hard work. Get training do we anything and work hard. No automating needed we human hand work good and no robot better. Go GM Go.
Jul 18th, 2009 (9:52 am)Yeah, I don’t think there is a comparison there, but at least the progess trundles on. Which is good.
/but… I have to say it. Apparently ‘choosing’ a location to be converted for battery assembly can be construed as ‘on time’ for release to the public in 16 months?
Jul 18th, 2009 (9:53 am)As always Lyle has to scoop – thanks! GM-Volt.com remains the source for info!
Each day now brings us a step closer to VOLT on the street….
Jul 18th, 2009 (9:57 am)You’re absolutely right, Laura! ….And given the large numbers of completed batteries this facility will eventually be manufacturing (10,000/yr?), the small number of employees (100) strongly suggests the assembly process will be HIGHLY automated, which should maximize quality as well as minimize cost!
+6
Jul 18th, 2009 (9:57 am)Lyle sucks, the website sucks…I don’t know why anyone comes here, ever. You should know he hates old people, children, and dogs.
Maybe if he added a ‘app’ that told us the time of day, or last night’s sports scores we would learn something.
/harmony saddens me
-8
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:00 am)I next to plant live. Me have first rite to dis job. I work GM at. This be 6th job four me at GM. I luv GM. I make batery and make it fit. No worry work hard for GM. GM Volt make here. No problem.
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:04 am)I LOVE your version of “Plug it in, Plug it in”, Dan! You should grab your guitar & cut a CD!
I’ll buy it fer sure!
+2
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:05 am)Wrong answer doofus. There can be only one Official site. I believe GM will allow unofficial sites within limits of course. Although the NEW GM is a leaner company we still have a healthy supply of lawyers at our disposal and will not hesitate to vigorously protect our intellectual property. IMO, this site is pretty safe for now, but we reserve the right to reevaluate our position at any time.
+1
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:10 am)Are you a monkey or a man ?
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:14 am)An excellent breakdown and commentary, Bill! I would only add that the number of people GM hires may vary with the battery throughput rate — e.g., they might start with perhaps only 20 and add/train more as needed.
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:25 am)Hello Chevy Volt Fans,
We cordially invite you to visit our new cutting edge website to keep you fully informed about the latest news and information related to the Chevrolet Volt. This is a fantastic site. Take a look for yourself, you won’t be disappointed. So please update your bookmarks, cell phone shortcuts, twitter, facebook, myspace, etc to link to this wonderful new site. THE Volt source and your new home (we do strongly suggest you make this your new HOME PAGE). We will have more information coming shortly so stay tuned…
http://www.chevroletvoltage.com
P.S. In the future we may allow other sites (i.e. gm-volt.com, etc.) to have the privilege of a link on our site for a nominal monthly fee.
+4
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:36 am)I’m staying too. To give you an example of who’s running the GM site I had this experience; I tried to register over there and in my haste failed to correctly enter my email address, so I will never get the email required to complete my registration. When I go back to try again, it tells me that my user name and password are already taken. I tried to send an email using the only link I could find to maybe get some administrative help only to find that the only contact email they provide is not functional.
This tells me that that site is one way only and is not run by a person. It is a news portal and PR site only. I believe that much more meaningful discussion and interesting points of view will be found here.
-8
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:38 am)Somebody needs to get a life ASAP.
+6
Jul 18th, 2009 (10:39 am)The real question is, what is the actual price of the assembly building? No way it is actually 43 million to convert that shed. Just like the Volt was/is marked up for rebates, that ‘plant’ is marked way up for government subsidization for rebates and loans. 43 million to ASSEMBLE some batteries, up front, at a worthless Michigan location. They are going to cost transfer, and inflate expenses to that and pocket the cash.
You think if GM had to spend its own coin, this wouldn’t be more like 5 million? (Or would they even do the pack themselves, or job it out 3rd party style like everything else?).
There is no precedent anywhere in the world for this kind of expense…but hundreds that indicate it is a cash grab for money/loans. (which it qualifies for under the Advanced Vehicle, bla, bla bla)
Example?
—–
Wednesday, May 27, 2009:
“Lithium Energy Japan reportedly plans to build a new plant in Kyoto to supply lithium-ion batteries for Mitsubishi’s i MiEV electric car. According to the Nikkei, the new plant is needed to keep up with an anticipated increase in i MiEV production
Lithium Energy is a joint venture between GS Yuasa, Mitsubishi Motors Corp. and Mitsubishi Corp. According to the report, it intends to invest ¥2bn-¥3bn (US$21m-US$32m) in the new plant, which will have capacity to produce battery packs for 15,000 vehicles a year, starting in the autumn of 2010″
http://www.automotiveworld.com/news/components/76702-japan-mitsubishi-jv-to-build-new-battery-plant
——
Lets break that down, for 21-32 million Mitsu is BUILDING a whole plant, that can MANUFACTURE and ASSEMBLE packs for 15,000 cars a year.
Yet at GM, in Michigan, where land is free, taxes aren’t paid, and GM gets all its lithium cells pre-made, and shipped to them in boxes with all those cool little foamy ‘S’s, it is 43 million to plunk them into a pack?
If it is less to build a whole plant from scratch, that builds, assembles and delivers batteries to you from right across the road, that you have complete control over, with no middle man to worry about compliance, ship dates, or covering their margins…why aren’t you doing it?
-
“You don’t actually think they spend $20,000.00 on a hammer, $30,000.00 on a toilet seat do you?”
http://img164.yukle.tc/images/4997vlcsnap-1036418.png
-2
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:03 am)$43 million of your tax dollars for a used plant.
This don’t compute. Somebody (ies) are lining their pockets with gold on this one.
New GM still up to the old GM tricks.
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:22 am)“The fourth point makes clear that $1,000/available kWh includes the pack overhead, and not just the cells.”
but its not clear that he is talking about the Volt pack, but a general pack for electric vehicles. Interesting that he talks about a 15 year calendar life for the cells and an industry standard SOC window of 70%… apparently GM is being extremely conservative with the SOC window of 50% that they are using.
The Volt could get a 20% boost in electric range (with a software adjustment) and still treat the pack within industry standards. These first generation Volts packs may still be in use for a long time after the car itself is scrapped.
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:25 am)Your so cynical.
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:29 am)If the initial batteries and engines do not come from the regular factories, it will mean that the initial Volts will not be “standard.” Whether that will be for better or worse I don’t know, but I can imagine some confusion 5 years down the line.
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:29 am)Shorter
ColonelAttention Whore:I just got back from Alpha Centauri, and boy are my arms tired. I hear America’s turning into a socialist hellhole — me and my 204 wives are gonna live in perfect freedom in libertarian Europe
ftfy
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:31 am)Not yet ‘chosen” but rather ‘reported,’ so there are loose ends (tax credits?) still uncertain.
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:34 am)Dont forget, many of the components used in the Vette are manufactured/assembled in other plants by subcontractors.. you dont see that labor when you go to the Vette plant but it still is counted in the total books.
Battery pack manufacture is differente.. but I expect in the future individual cells will report their condition to the cars central computer using some sort of wireless tech (a custom chip will be built into each cell).. this will simplify pack construction and increase reliability.
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:40 am)Yeah, if all marketing budgets were zero, people would still buy Coke/McDonald’s/Marlboro/Nike… yeah right
Marketing is a necessary evil. Without it, people wouldn’t know about the thing you’re selling — like the Volt. A website is part of marketing.
A rough gauge I’ve noticed is that you need to spend about an equal amount in marketing your produce as you spend on development, or no one will be aware of it. Sure, I’d prefer that money go to the people like me that MAKE the thing and paid twice as much, but it wouldn’t last because no one would buy my products…
+1
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:42 am)THIS is the site for all things Volt. The other one is off to a slow start–it is clear they are still learning. No reason to check there very often. This one is always fresh. Thanks Lyle.
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:49 am)I’ve heard it commentated that one of the lessons learned from NUMMI was that the secret to great auto manufacturing is not simply great robots.
Jul 18th, 2009 (11:57 am)GM has been working with LG Chem for a long time. I wouldn’t be surprised that they were selected as first generation battery supplier because of an agreement to assist GM in setting up this battery assembly plant. LG Chem already has the machinery to build the 16 Kwh packs.
GM has set the development of the volt on a combined section development; running concurrently. Every component has been considered from design to production and each development considers all aspects not just the design of the component but also the machinery to produce the part. i think that it will take less than one year to get it up and running. Look at the battery testing laboratory. How long did it take to start full testing.
As for the subsequent posts following this tread, I commend Lyle for putting this website up and will also continue to look here for up-to-date information of the Volt. I find the posts here humorous at times, especially the posts by skeptics.
I may end up being forgiving of the past destruction of city railway systems by the powers that were in GM at that time. GM has gained my watchful eye from now on. Hopefully, the corporate corruption that existed in the past will not creep into their current business practices.
GM was far ahead of all other automotive manufacturers with BEV and EREV technology; too bad we had to wait until now to see them get serious about electric. Had they looked closer at electric propulsion back when the city railway systems were dismantled, we would likely not have a Global warming problem as serious as it is today.
Kuddos again to Lyle. You got my support!
+3
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:06 pm)I’m no longer sure how long I’ve been reading Lyle’s site, but I can assure you that I will continue on a daily basis. I too enjoy the sometimes wild discussions and genuinely good information to be read here.
+3
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:13 pm)The Lads, Zeus & Apollo and I agree. While they are, ah, rather challenged a bit with reading I am certainly happy that I happened across Lyle’s engaging site one boring day long ago.
Many kind regards!—- Higgins & the Lads
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:13 pm)The SOC window of 70% is only for depth of discharge.
The end of life factor is 75%. Towards end of life, the original 16kWh pack would be down to 12kWh of total capacity, and you still need the SOC window of 70% for depth of discharge. 70% of 12kWh is very close to 8kWh. So in order to get a given range over the life of the battery, you need a factor of 50%. In other words, 70% of 75% is around 50%.
GM could allow the Volt to get more than 40 miles AER at beginning of life, but they decided against that, at least for the first generation Volt. Instead, the Volt’s software plays with the SOC level at which the generator turns on, and the SOC level at which the battery charger turns off. Here’s an example of how that might happen:
VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) ……… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at ……… 80% ….. 82% ……… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ……………. 30% ….. 27% ……… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh ……………….. 8 …….. 8 …………. 8 …………. 8
By doing it this way, GM is being conservative by using much less than 70% depth of discharge for most of the life of the battery, which will help insure the battery lasts at least 10 years. GM has a 10-year warranty on the battery, so if the AER decreases dramatically, GM will have to pay for a new pack.
If the Volt had more range with a new battery, then customers would be more motivated to have have a new battery after 5 years. Some customers may actually take steps to purposely wear out the battery in order to get a warranty replacement. Other customers may get upset that their commute is no longer all-electric, complain loudly at dealerships, or find other ways to get the dealer to replace the battery under warranty. But since the Volt’s pack has the same range throughout it’s life, none of the above issues will exist.
Now, if the Volt had some competition, then I bet GM would change this, and have increased range with a new battery, for at least 2 reasons:
1) to be more competitive.
2) if customers complain about decreased range, the dealer can mention that the competition works that way as well.
But given that no other major car maker has announced a production date for an EREV, GM has no real competition, and my bet is that GM will keep it the way it is, with constant range throughout the life of the battery.
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:32 pm)Totally agree.
Cell manufacturing is a very precise operation that you want to have 100% consistency in order to accurately predict battery life. Shoving the cells into a box and soldering is the easy part by comparison.
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:37 pm)I believe it…a Million dollars doesn’t buy what it used to. Today the 6 million dollar man would be the 6 trillion dollar man.
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:41 pm)I guess this shows how many comments I actually read, Lol
Dunno how I missed it back then!
+3
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:47 pm)Yep. This is exactly how laptops charge their LiIon batteries too.
The highest amperage is when the battery is dead, slowly reducing to 0.001 amp when it’s 99.x% charged.
Very few batteries can be charged linearly at full as the above calculation suggests.
Think of it like trying to fill a canister with compressed air. When the pressure’s low, it’s easy to put in the max PSI(input) as you can. But once you get to the full point of a tank, there is a lot of “resistance” from the pressure inside, so it fills much more slowly. The same is true for batteries as their internal reaction is trying to release electrons at the same time as you’re trying to shove them in. (very simply put)
This ignores the fact that if you went “full on” you would probably make the batteries explode, lol. LiFePO4′s eliminate (or severely reduce) the explosion potential, though.
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:51 pm)Well it certainly provides the ever cantankerous boozing robot, Bender, from FUTURAMA, a job opening and job security.
No one mentioned Fair Trade. What has been allowed for the Wall Street suits is a free for all WORLD opening to use ridiculously impoverished nations and their people putting Jane or Joe in assembly OUT of well paying jobs as Jane/Joe cannot compare their lives to that of those, say, in China but that is what we expect from Jane and Joe. Actually we expect that their sons and daughters to go out and fight and die… to protect the system and it’s financial interests.
Adam Smith in the Wealth of Nations is paraded out when this is brought out. He was thinking at the time of like nations and peoples in competition and would likely find the situation at hand wildly gone out of control. Economists are actually sitting back and looking again at all of this.
When Henry Ford gave his workers, what at the time was a huge raise, his logic was that the workers could in effect afford the very cars that they built. And yes, the Unions eventually went from needed representation to assisting the various companies into the muddle we are seeing.
The “Free Trade” sycophants will sing their mind numbing mantra of the “joys” of free this or that, will implement Trade treaties to exploit new untapped cheap labor and our national ship of state will continue wallow deeper going down one “watertight section” at a time. But ho! there is money to be made from this for some! Don’t look behind the curtains.
Per automation: We can “SKYNET” all the way. “Why humans?” one all too sentient machine may ask someday. But yes automation is a key component to competitiveness.
Regards! Higgins & The Lads
Jul 18th, 2009 (12:56 pm)And this just in from the official VoltAge site, GM’s new jingle, Plug it in… and CaptainJackSparrow thought he had been rolled. LOL!
Higgins
+3
Jul 18th, 2009 (1:03 pm)Have either of you ever been inside a high-reliability battery assembly plant? I have, and I can assure you that there is nothing trivial about cell testing, matching, balancing, by-passing, etc!!!
To the contrary, considerable PhD-level intellectual talents are needed to review the cell test results and assign cells to sub-pack assemblies that will assure the final battery will not degrade over its 15-year lifetime due to cell imbalances or reversals. Think I’m kidding? ….look at Tesla’s site, or ask NASA battery contractors who supply 15 year batteries for the International Space Station or for long-term deep space programs. High-reliability battery manufacturing is ANYTHING but trivial!!!
(And btw, all battery assembly will employ welding, not soldering!)
+2
Jul 18th, 2009 (1:16 pm)We really don’t need your racial BS here .
You sure didn’t learn anything with your experience .
This is a site devoted to the Volt car and its related technology , not to racial bigots .
+3
Jul 18th, 2009 (1:32 pm)Statik wouldn’t be Statik if he was any other way. Whatever that means. Always fun to read, though.
I’m reading daily as well. Will certainly not leave. Keep posting.
Jul 18th, 2009 (3:06 pm)Related news:
Nissan and NEC’s joint venture Automotive Energy Supply Corporation, just fired up production of their packs last friday. They apparently can make 13,000 for 2009, and 65,000 in 2010.
Cost? 115 million over 3 years.
Also of interest: US introduced product in 2010? Here is the quote (you could interpret it as the hybrid in 2010 or the EV, or both…I dunno):
“AESC will produce the lithium-ion batteries for Nissan’s electric vehicle to be introduced in the U.S. and Japan, as well as Nissan’s original hybrid vehicle, in 2010.”
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2009/_STORY/090716-01-e.html
Jul 18th, 2009 (3:22 pm)No guitar for me. I’m the guy with a voice so bad, I got kicked out of karioke.
But what would really tickle me is if the original artists came forward and filled in the rest of the words for Plug-ins, because I know that there were longer stanza’s with additional lengths of lyrics.
Jul 18th, 2009 (3:32 pm)1st Amendment?
Jul 18th, 2009 (3:33 pm)Correction number two.
The name of the original tune was
“Rub it in, Rub it in”, about a couple on the beach
applying suntan lotion and having a good time.
(It came out around 1972).
(I think I had been running the rhymes over and over so
often, that I slipped up on saying what the original title was.
31 long days in this 105 degree Texas heat can have you make mistakes like that. I hope the Volt A/C is really cold and has a tremendous volumetric flow. I really need that down here for when I get back into the car and must chill down quickly after being in 108 degree service bays for hours).
-6
Jul 18th, 2009 (3:37 pm)considerable PhD-level intellectual talents are needed to review the cell test results and assign cells to sub-pack assemblies that will assure the final battery will not degrade over its 15-year lifetime due to cell imbalances or reversals.
This plant is basically a glue factory that will be gluing hundreds of these 3V cells and shoving them in a T-shaped container. That’s it folks. Pretty much a brainless operation requiring low wage personnel. The heavy lifting for the Volt is all done across the pond using intelligent labor force.
Which one of these statements is full of canine effluent?
Jul 18th, 2009 (4:00 pm)If make different assumptions, we arrive at different conclusions. Lets say the initial cost per kWh is $750. For a 16 kWh battery, that would equal $12,000. So the end of life capacity (12 kWh) costs in effect $1000 per kWh.
Second, how much battery is required for regen braking and charge sustaining mode of operation. A Prius has a 1.3 kWh battery which is less than 10% of a Volt. If we use a 70% window at beginning of life, even at end of life, we will have 5% reserve for regen braking and charge sustaining mode operation. Thus the maximum SOC window would be 11.2 kWh. This would leave .8 kWh for regen and charge sustaining mode at the very end of life.
Jul 18th, 2009 (6:00 pm)I happen to work for NASA too, and although there are PhDs at work and it does take some effort to match cells to the subassemblies, it’s not rocket science. I could do it in my garage and it would turn out as well as the ones we pay millions for.
+1
Jul 18th, 2009 (6:29 pm)Sorry, jscott, but you’re sadly mistaken when you say “I could do it in my garage and it would turn out as well as the ones we pay millions for”! I’ve managed people at some the world’s leading spacecraft battery suppliers (TRW, Hughes, COMSAT Labs, British Aerospace, etc, etc) for over 15 years and while I’d be the first to admit their costs are much higher than they could be, we’re not talking about outrageously-costly hammers or toilet seats! Long-term space missions now often exceed 15-20 years, and the batteries HAVE to last that long!
Sorry, but “a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument” ….and I’ve got >15 years experience in space batteries! Let me know when you’ve worked on high-reliability space-qualified batteries that long.
(BTW, click on “nasaman” (my on-line user ID at the upper left), if you’d like to see a bit more about my extensive background in the space program.)
+1
Jul 18th, 2009 (7:00 pm)I had a similar experience. I’m dead in the water. Can’t register. Can’t log in. ????
Crazy.
+2
Jul 18th, 2009 (7:01 pm)Quite honestly, I see no problem in checking out both sites. I don’t see it as an “either or” situation. The simple fact is that GM has decided to do this, so why not take a look at what they have to say.
The other site is being watched by GM people, and it is kind of fun to let them know how wrong they are about some of their ideas….
I guess we will see how long that continues, and if it makes any difference at all. Probably not, but hope springs eternal!!!
JMHO
+1
Jul 18th, 2009 (7:27 pm)Rawr @ Nasaman
…I like it
+1
Jul 18th, 2009 (8:20 pm)The CEO of CPI was pretty clear. He quotes a price of $1000/ available kWh and compares that with $350/stated kWh for consumer electronics lithium batteries. The first two bullets that proceed the $1000 / available kWh figure detail what he means by available energy – 75% for end-of-life, and 70% for depth of discharge. So the available energy is 70% of 75%, or around 50% of the total new battery capacity, which is exactly the ratio for the Volt’s pack.
This is clear enough to me that I don’t consider it an assumption. He is clearly stating the Volt’s battery pack costs around $8000 to build. I can’t see any other reasonable interpretation. Of course, he could be wrong, but given that CPI has built all of the Volt packs to date, he should know a lot better that we do.
+2
Jul 19th, 2009 (9:41 am)I don’t know exactly why we’re doing this, whether some alternative has popped up or anything, but yes. I have probably 1000 favorites bookmarked. This is one of my top 5. Thanks, Lyle, whoever you are.
Jul 19th, 2009 (7:26 pm)Welcome back and God Bless!! From a retired Senior Chief Petty Officer, USN
Jul 20th, 2009 (10:46 am)http://www.roaduserstudy.org/
Thought this was interesting. I may try to participate.
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:34 pm)This seems to be a battery thread, and info about Nissan, so might as well through in another announcement from Nissan from today.
They announced TWO new battery plants (1 in UK, 1 in Portugal), both can build 60,000 packs per year. So thats three plants all with 60,000+ capacity, all open by 2011. I would say Nissan has fully embraced the EV platform.
Thats a lot of EVs, I dunno if there is that kind of demand (180,000+/per year) to support their goals …I wish them good luck anywhoo.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/20/nissan-looking-at-uk-portugal-for-two-new-battery-plants/
Jul 20th, 2009 (2:38 pm)What a perfect textbook discussion of two different points along a single capital-labor tradeoff curve in a production function, like British versus American thread spinning operations in the eighteenth century, where the consumers real world vote on resulting relative quality and price are what declares the industry market share winners (much lower price for somewhat lower quality (to a mimimum quality constraint) wins, ceterus paribus). Now watch someone talk about productivity issues, like UAW workers playing poker, and totally muddle it all up. Oh, you just did that. You get a zero on your midterm exam.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2009 (2:10 pm)Just wanted to know how to apply for one of the jobs at the new GM facility in Brownstown