AND 
Canadian Government Gives $10,000 Chevy Volt Subsidy, Angers Toyota
On Wednesday Ontario Canada’s Premier Dalton McGuinty announced that the Ontario government would provide buyers of plug-in hybrid vehicles a rebate of $4000 to $10,000 dollars for cars purchased after July 1, 2010. A $7500 tax credit exists for the Volt in the US.
McGuinty said “we want to make it easier to buy green cars,” and pledged a goal of 1 in 20 cars to be electric on Canada’s roads by 2020.
The Premier actually made the announcement at a Chevrolet dealership while stepping in and out of a Volt show car. Buyers of the Volt could expect the full $10,000.
He did not state the program’s cost. Other incentives mentioned were special green license plates and preferred parking spots in places like Wal-Mart.
Toyota had not been notified of this decision and was caught off guard. In return for $3.16 billion in funding the Canadian governemnt is a 12% owner of the new GM, and as such the Japanese automaker expressed concerns of favoritism.
“How long does this continue?” said Stephen Beatty, managing director of Toyota Canada Inc. “We can’t set up a situation where the future of the industry depends on constant subsidies.”
“This suggests that (the government) is prepared to be interventionist beyond their aim to help the industry recover,” he said. “The question is: Is this a well thought-out industry strategy? Or is it sort of the next stage in advancing a particular product and helping a particular company?”
Toyota will only be producing a limited test fleet of 500 global plug-in Priuses by the end of 2010, and have hesitated to publicly embrace the technology which could make their hybrid synergy drive obsolete. “We’re not entirely convinced that the technology is a winning proposition for consumers today,” said Beatty.
Source (Windsor Star) and (LeaderPost)
235 Responses to “Canadian Government Gives $10,000 Chevy Volt Subsidy, Angers Toyota”
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:26 am
This has a very easy solution, just offer a plug-in Prius and share in all that loot.. sheez sometimes Toyota is too conservative. We dont even ask for 40 miles of range, start with 5 miles and work your way up.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:37 am
I like the competition from Canada. Perhaps the US Govt. will up the rebate from 7500 to compete with them! The Volt can then truly be an ‘average’ American’s vehicle to potentially own.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:39 am
I don’t think Toyota is nearly as concerned about “favoritism” when they are on the receiving end of the proposition.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:44 am
statik should be in a good mood today!
john1701a will not be too happy………
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:44 am
What an interesting (disingenuous?) reaction from a company whose national government for years subsidized that same company, and provided a protective trade environment that discouraged significant competition from outside auto manufacturers.
In my view what matters is whether Canadian citizens think the 10K subsidy is a good way to spend their tax dollars. What Toyota thinks about it matters not a whit.
Curious about the timing of July 2010…perhaps looking to encourage GM to ship some early production run Volts northward?
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:58 am
…statik is always in a good mood
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:58 am
My thoughts exactly: The shoe’s on the other foot.
My guess: Toyota will move forward sooner than later with its plug-in Prius.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:02 am
On the one hand, Toyota has Watanabe to thank for not moving on a plug-in hybrid sooner – otherwise Toyota would be a beneficiary of this policy.
On the other hand, this is exactly why governments should not own companies, as they craft policies that give an advantage to their own interests. I hope a comprehensive review is done after the auto companies return to private financing to assess what was done properly and what wasn’t.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:02 am
It seems that Ontario may be an ideal locale for the Volt. They get 52% of their power from nuclear, and the rates are about 5 or 6 cents per kWh (Statik can verify).
Since nuclear plants run base load around the clock, that means that nightime charging may be 60 to 80% nuclear.
http://www.investinontario.com/siteselector/oout_507.asp
Of course Canada is coming under scrutiny due to the fact that its global CO2 emissions are on the rise, and plug-ins (especially in Ontario) could have a major effect on CO2.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602099&sid=aKecgoGFIH7Y
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:03 am
There is alot of negative play up here in Canada about this incentive. Lots of misinformation about what VOLT is and also giving money to the rich to buy expansive cars that only go 65 Kilometers before you have to stop and recharge them.
We here at GM-VOLT have drunk to Koolaid and we can’t see why anyone would be against this incentive. But out in the real world…
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:05 am
I personally think the Canadian guy didn’t get the memo from Toyota HQ in Japan to keep his yap shut. He said it himself, Toyota was caught unaware, and they had no clue…so he probably was acting ‘outside’ the company line.
Toyota has been surprising quiet all the way through this process the past 12 months, whether it be the ‘Advanced Technology Loans to Provide Buckets of Money to our Domestics’ last fall, the november bailout, or bailout round 2, or the lovely cash parting prizes for leaving bankruptcy for GM and Chrysler.
BTW, I mentioned this a few threads back, but we also get to drive on lawns, knock over garbage cans, and get 15% off Stones tickets with the green plates.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Bring it on Dalton! I’m getting a Volt and the $10000 incentive seals the deal for me. I don’t give a @#$% about what Toyota thinks.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:09 am
Dumb A$$, you don’t have to stop after 65 km to recharge! You just keep on driving using some gas. You recharge when you get home.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:09 am
So the Japanese get a taste of their own medicine.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:11 am
Well $10,000 CDN is about $9,000 USD atm. But it will probably be dollar for dollar by 2011.
In other news….
GM announces that the ‘Canadian Volt’ has run into some unexpected cost overruns, and unfortunately it is going to cost about $2,500 more (USD) than the American version.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:15 am
Demetrius isn’t dumb. He said there is misinformation! So the people aren’t dumb either, they’re ignorant. Name calling probably won’t get them smart.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:16 am
By the way, the title of this article is misleading. The Canadian government (federal) is not running the incentive program. The Ontario government (provincial) is.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Isn’t the GST in Canada like 15%? So the savings aren’t as much as much as you think.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:29 am
# 12!
These money back offers need to be changed to instant rebates.
In the real world … many of us are going to need to convince our loved ones that we’re buying a new Volt. The Chevy is electric and is priced about $40,000 sticker. But, the INSTANT REBATE lowers this to about $33,000 actual. Let’s get on with this.
=D~
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:30 am
No. GST is 5% and PST is 8% in Ontario.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:32 am
What are the requirements…. just a plug?
For $10, i’ll put a plug on a car to get the $10,000.
Don’t a lot of Canadian cars already have plugs for engine block heaters?
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Ah OK, that’s where i came up w/the percentage. I just remember always paying about 15% in taxes on trips to Canada, but its actually 13%.
So the price of the Volt = $40KUSD = $44,725CAD x 13% = $5814CAD. That leaves $4185CAD or the 10K rebate towards the price of the car. I think i’m better off going to a State in the US that doesnt have sales tax, or a very low one, to buy my Volt.
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:43 am
A car bought after July 2010! If Toyota hurried they could get a plug in prius out for July and sell a million of them by November when the Volt comes out and there won’t be any money left for CM (Canadian Motors).
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:49 am
Yeah it used to be 15% total in Ontario until recently. We pay too much taxes. However, if you trade in for the Volt you don’t pay the PST on the trade in value (or is it the GST, I forget).
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Actually, now that i think about it, i’m still somewhat screwed because Michigan has a 6% use tax. Either way the Gov will get their $ back.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Now I know who knocked down 2 mailboxes and a stop sign last night
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:09 am
It would not be surprising if the Gsned57 sequence actually occurred, and Toyota was first to market in 2010.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Now would you ever see a discussion like this on chevroletVoltage?
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:10 am
About the spin?
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:16 am
What had been and is good for Japan’s industries in being (even more heavily) subsidized by the Japanese government during the times when it was growing and needed growth,
is now
simply the same good thing that Canadians are now doing for their new plug-in industries which need growing.
AND GROW THEY MOST CERTAINLY WILL!
As well, GM and its remaining interests (including me) to the South, are fully committed to doing everything we can to promote Plug-in EREV’s because Plug-in EREV’s are absolutely
**************************
THE ONLY
**************************
technological design setup which is going to work for electrification, with true industry standards as imposed by the 18 or so (American) Federal Agencies for reliability and safety.
(EREV is the only design marketable after quantity 5,000, whereupon the strict rules of those 18 agencies relating to reliability and safety kick in, especially toward BEV’s)
The entrenched contractual impediments from which your company suffers is what is stopping Toyota from extricating itself out of a likely 10 year technological rut with HSD.
Toyota has rested on it’s laurels FAR FAR FAR too long.
Now, Toyota is paying for that, and will pay for that for the next ten years from the over reliance upon an HSD design vacation.
The only thing that will advance Toyota Motors five years sooner (staying 5 years behind), is to work toward a request to GM to purchase GM technologies for inclusion within Toyota’s product lines, if that makes sense for Toyota Motor products sold in America. You’ll need to pay one way or another.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:34 am
all that darned common sense that our loved ones have!
You want to spend WHAT to save one gallon of gas a day! (slap upside the head follows)
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Just subcontract out to Hymotion
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Statik at 7:05
That’s really funny!! “Driving on lawns with green plates”
[rolling on the floor LOL].
Have a productive day.
[off to work]
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:37 am
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:39 am
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Like Toyota needs to complain, how much did the Japanese Govt recently pay them and how much of their hybrid development costs were subsidized? Toyota is hurting; they’ve been losing more money then GM and Ford lately. I guess that’s what they get for building “trucks and SUVs that no one wants to buy”.
I personally think the cash for clunkers BS should only be for Govt-owned OEMS anyway. Let’s pay back those loans as soon as we can.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:41 am
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:42 am
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Dan, what is stopping Toyota from implementing a plug-in?.. either serial or parallel.. do you think they dont have the vision or the tech?
What “entrenched contractual impediments”?
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:44 am
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:44 am
Exactly Bradyb. The Japanese government heavily subsidizes the auto industry. It gives them billions (yes billions) of dollars in free money every year.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:46 am
You mean Canada has no problem trading with Japan and as a result they buy your products and your balance of trade with them is about even? I REALLY HAVE NO IDEA AND THAT MAY BE THE ACTUAL CASE!! But it would surprise me.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:48 am
You are trolling for a response arn’t you?
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:49 am
nope
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:53 am
And Toyota says they are angrily caught off guard, and why, because they ignorantly don’t want to admit a plug in hybrid is better than a gas electric hybrid.
They have ridden the cash cow of thier synergy drive for ling enough, evolve or be left in the dust.
We’ll see how long they keep trying to hold out.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Just the 5% GST in Alberta… no PST.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:55 am
It is a double edged sword with taxes in this country (as you know). We pay a lot, but we get ‘free’ medical, clean roads, good schools/libraries/parks, and fully funded social security program.
As for the tax question on the car itself. In Canada, the amount of the trade-in is subtracted from the cost of the new car BEFORE taxes are calculated.
For example: I trade in my SRX on the Volt (or other EV if it beats the Volt to market), lets say the Volt is $42,500 and by the time 2011 rolls around they give me $30,000 for the SRX, the difference is $12,500. I would pay taxes on that portion, or $1,625.
(This is also another reason why leasing is bad, at least in Canada, you pay all the tax, all the time if you lease…unless you are writing it off through your business/corporation).
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Toyota has received huge grants etc from the Governament of Japan.
I say build the EREV Silverado or Orlando in Canada
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:57 am
I believe Toyota and Honda actually came out in favor of the government rescue of GM (and Chrysler). They were concerned about a)the stability of the North American market, and b)the auto supply chain.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/news/companies/overseas_automakers/index.htm
The subsidies of EVs are a different matter. They know that if EVs actually become commercially viable, it will be a game changer. I think it’s hypocritical considering how many subsidies they got for the Prius in the closed Japanese market.
But on the other hand, you can’t blame them for being upset. They were used to being able to access the best subsidies, in the closed Japanese market–one of the largest in the world. Now everyone will able to access subsidies for new technologies. (Although it’s still nowhere near the kind of subsidies they can get in the Japanese market.) And it’s a technology that could leapfrog Toyota, and render the Prius obsolete.
This means they’re going to have to get serious about the plug-in Prius, which means spending more money on R&D at a time when they’re already bleeding cash. And, it’s still possible that this whole thing will be a waste of money. But they can’t afford to take that risk…
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:58 am
LOL! ALL the car companies are getting tax money… just from different tax pools.
I just hope they give the same incentive here in Alberta for MY Volt!
A plug in Prius would absolutely qualify as far as I’m concerned.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:00 am
LOLROTF!!!
You crack me up Lance!
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Unfortunately, there’s still a lot of misinformation out there about the Volt. In the US as well as Canada. Too many people still don’t know, and don’t understand about the range extender.
And when I try to explain, they instantly go back to the Prius. And talk about how GM is copying Toyota. It’s extremely frustrating.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:02 am
“the technology which could make their hybrid synergy drive obsolete.”
If by obsolete, you mean make it totally mainstream, I completely agree. Expect Toyota HSD sales (with and without plug in capability) to improve as a result of this. Anything that benefits electric drive in any way benefits all electric drive. Bring it on.
This’ll help with public (and especially dealer) education and electric drive vehicle availability, the number one and two constraints in all electric drive sales.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Lance seems to be the latest name that “no name” the troll hides behind.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:09 am
There is a lot of sense as I see it.
Somebody got excited at a seminar and signed this thing called Kyoto… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
(I once was an amway distributor for about 3 days… it happens)
And then they got home and found out that we don’t actually have the resources to ‘go green’ overnight.
This incentive helps get a little bit closer to that goal but more importantly makes it LOOK like we are reaching for said goal.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Curious about the timing of July 2010…perhaps looking to encourage GM to ship some early production run Volts northward?
I was told at the Vancouver Auto Show by a GM rep that the Volt would be there for the olympics (Feb 2010) He did’t say if it would be on sale. I’m sure it won’ be. Just there for PR.
There was no Volt at the Auto show… i was very dissapointed.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:11 am
I agree. It’s not like these subsidies are limited to the Volt. Nissan and Mitsubishhi will also benefit from this subsidy.
All Toyota has to do is offer a plug-in Prius. I can see why they wouldn’t want to do it. They’re very happy with the status quo. But it’s not like they can’t. Unlike, say GM, who couldn’t have developed a hybrid and then market it in Japan if they’d wanted to.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Absolutely!
This is where marketing just HAS to get things clear in the public eye.
I see a couple people sitting in a coffee shop (pick your favorite poison, mine has a green circle) One person says what good is a 65 km range on the new Chevy Volt? (while he sips on his small coffee) His buddy (obviously a GM-volt.com regular..
) says that’s 65 km without burning ANY gas, he then points out that if you drive 70 km that day you only burn 5 km worth of gas. Then they figure out the average gas mileage…
Friend is now convinced and says, “I guess I can afford the Venti next time then!”
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:17 am
A very good point!
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Yes you did mention this a while back. Actually after reading about it you gave a surprisingly complete summary. Plus the jokes of course!
My guess is that you’re right about the Toyota spokesperson going off the reservation. The fact is that, when the Volt is released in 2010, 500 plug-in cars sold to fleets will not going to keep the Green Mantle on Toyota’s shoulders. Given all the other problems Toyota has, this may not be its number one issue.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:21 am
My wife is conflicted on this point!
She is a very good money manager and can see that a first Gen Volt is at best a wobbly financial ‘investment’..
BUT she is also an Electrical Engineer and thinks the Volt is COOL.
I have her beat on this one!
(I take the small wins as they come!)
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:22 am
LOL! I LIKE the way you think!
Yes! every car I own or have owned has had a block heater with a plug!
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:23 am
I don’t think Canada is any different than the US as far as sales tax when trading in a car.
I have only bought cars in MN and MO but always paid sales tax AFTER the trade in value was deducted.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Something our resident troll is trying hard to deny!
It’s good for a laugh though!
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Yes, you can get a plug-in at your Toyota dealer – at least in Madison, WI. Madison dealer is offering to install A123 hymotion plug-in module at the dealership, for a mere $10K, bringing your total for a new Prius to a base of about $33K (hmmm… where have I heard a figure like that before?). As I’ve stated before, my area is the #1 per capita purchaser of the Prius, and now a Toyota dealer here is claiming to be the only installer of (hymotion?) plug-ins between Denver and Boston.
(Granted, they’ve been doing this for only a short time, and most of the first 6 customers have not been local but…) Hey, GM, plug-ins won’t just be hot sellers in D.C. and Cali. Southern Wisconsin IS part a primary part of your target market for the Volt. (And if you really want to lock up some brand loyalty, find a way to make some parts for the car at the Janesville plant.) Come here and win back your core market, and do it sooner, not later.
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/biz/458486
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:26 am
“Toyota had not been notified of this decision and was caught off guard. In return for $3.16 billion in funding the Canadian government is a 12% owner of the new GM, and as such the Japanese automaker expressed concerns of favoritism.”
Well, DUH!
Central Banking, Fiat Currency and the resulting legislative malfeasance of Political Corporate Favoritism (pay to play) known as Crony Capitalism or Socialism/Fascism has replaced Free Market Capitalism.
The market is not truly free as long as:
1) A central bank can use fiat currency to inflate/deflate the currency supply and prices while artificially manipulating interest rates and credit availability causing market boom & bust cycles and bubbles which must ultimately burst.
2) Politicians can borrow and spend without budget constraints or conscience due to the unlimited availability of fiat currency available (at interest) from the central bank. This is why only a 100% commodity backed currency is stable money and why fiat currencies ALWAYS lead to hyperinflation and systemic failure.
3) Politicians can give, loan to or invest public money in private companies.
4) Politicians can play legislative favoritism in return for campaign “support”.
5) Politicians can ignore some parts of the law while bending others outside of their original intent. This is rule of Men, not Rule of Law and it is Tyranny!
Yet when Crony Capitalism fails, the Socialists & Fascists blame the “free” market which they have been legislatively manipulating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism
I’m sure that Toyota is NOT the only company that’s angry! What about all those companies that were ready to fill in the market void with BETTER products once GM went bankrupt? Should they get EQUAL taxpayer money in order to level the playing field?
Where does this Crony Capitalism end? Hyperinflation, Loss of “faith & credit” in the fiat currency, Systemic Failure and National Bankruptcy!
Yet the Crony Politicians and their corporate masters don’t care! After all, they are now rich and can even move to another country while the people they left behind enjoy a MUCH lower quality of life.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:27 am
I learned that one the hard way… the cost of leasing is much higher than it first appears!
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:33 am
I wonder if this means that Ontario is now on the list of locations targeted for the Volt release? I’ve been assuming that it would not be and ideal location because cold winters would place more stress on the battery pack than the more mild winters you’d find in CA, but perhaps this isn’t right.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:35 am
You said: “Either way the Gov will get their $ back.”
After me: “Either way the Gov will get my $.”
There, fixed that for ya.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Yep..
Using the words “paradigm shift” tends to glaze the eyes over too!
Marketing is going to need to step up and explain the difference to the public in an easy to understand way.
(I think the coffee shop ad might be a good way to start.)
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Yeah… and doesn’t that just annoy the hell outta ya? Oh, wait… hi Statik.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:43 am
The current block is 5.6/5.7 cents per kWh (put it gets double by the time you get to the bottom line with fees), so probably a ‘all-in’ number for most around 11 cents.
We do have a lot of nuclear capacity, (5 plants atm), and a ton of hydro plants…we should be ‘fossil fuel’ free shortly (under 5 years), which is good, because our track record (as you mentioned…not so good with coal, lol). We also have 4 new nuclear plants going through the very laborious approval process, that will come online later this next decade.
Where Ontario specifically is ‘the bomb’ for renewables, and for the Volt is in solar.
There are some tax rebates to be had, but the payback is in production, the Ontario gov’t pays 42 cents for each kWh we produce as individuals (shipped back to the grid). Basically, if you have a efficient setup, and do the legwork yourself, you can get payback on a system in 8-10 years. ($5/watt-ish)
Ontario Standard Offer Program:
http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/Page.asp?PageID=122&ContentID=4045
Basically, you’d need about a 2 kW system to juice a Volt on average over a year (solar is very seasonal). If you are handy and can do most of it yourself, and hunt down the ‘deals’ you could get it up for about $10K (ebay is handy here for small systems/inverters).
Your payback from the Ontario gov’t would be around $1,250 year, so after 8 years it is paid for, and you basically drive for free from then on, at least for 40 miles a day.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:47 am
My mind was made up a long time ago, unlike yours which is probably about 5 or 6 years old judging by your inane comments.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:52 am
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
OK, who are you, and what have you done with the real statik’s body????
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:55 am
I just twigged to something, based on what you said…
** They were used to being able to access the best subsidies, in the closed Japanese market–one of the largest in the world
Basically this is a wealth transfer from the Japanese tax-paying citizen to Corporate Japan. While it certainly feeds corporate Japan, it may be starving the rest of the Japanese economy. It’s widely acknowledged that Japan has been in a deflationary spiral since the begining of the 1990’s and it still hasn’t recovered.
Could it be that the Japanese government’s wealth transfer from the general populace to Corporate Japan is a factor in the Japanese economy’s continued deflation?
And if that’s true, what does it say about the US Govt having control of private US corporations? We’re in a slightly deflationary period because of the bursting of the petroleum bubble… could US intervention in US Auto (US HealthCare, US Energy, etc, etc, etc) push us into a REAL deflationary spiral?
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Toyota might gripe a bit because they are ready to take the market by storm and has NO competition. They will just put their heads down and increase the battery size on their coming Prius Plug-in. Heck, that’s a chance to give the customer a free 16 kWh lithium-ion battery back. Bonus! They will be ready. Count on it.
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July 17th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Should the US gummint owned car company be giving $7500 rebates(transfers from taxpayers to other taxpayers) to consumers to buy their cars when they are running huge deficits? Seems a bit incongruous.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:00 am
So direct quotes from managing director of Toyota Canada Inc. are now “spin”?
Or is it your opinion that anything that is said that is not in a favorable light towards Toyota, is spin?
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:00 am
So really in the end the “environment” wins because Toyota is forced to make the Prius MORE electric than before!
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Geez… what is it with you liberals… always moaning
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Don’t forget about Youngstown, Ohio!!!!
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:10 am
These are the same tactics that China is using.
It’s dirty and dishonest.
As much as I like my current Subaru, I can’t bring myself to buy another car from Japan.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:14 am
You have a good point EVO.
HSD and 2 Mode and the like will likely be fully mainstream before Voltec.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Same thing at the Calgary show, I was fairly disappointed.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Well, unless kdawg is on welfare! LOL.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:20 am
July 17th, 2009 at 10:24 am
So the Canadian government is 12% owner of the new GM and they’re offering $10,000 off government rebate? That sounds like a conflict of interest honestly.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:24 am
You are correct about Japan. They are calling it “The Lost Decade.
Each time The US gets close to the precipice of a deflationary spiral the fed hands out free money and just like a canine sensing a free “ride”, the politicians jump on the legislative side of the bandwagon and turn it into a situation ripe for a massive bubble. A bubble that will inevitably end in another painful crash.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:26 am
I need Statik (or another financial/tax wizard here) to clear something up: there’s a HUGE difference in the Canadian subsidy & the US tax deduction, right? This a LOT MORE than semantics, right!?!?!?
If the Canadian deal is truly a “subsidy” or “rebate”, doesn’t that mean that the buyer gets the full amount ($10,000 or whatever) back from the Canadian government no matter what his/her federal taxes are for the year?
If so, I’d like to engage Statik (or any other willing Canadian) to act as my agent to purchase a Volt for me there, because my tax experts here always succeed in applying my ample writeoffs, deductions, etc so I never owe any income tax …..which means the $7,500 US tax deduction is absolutely worthless to me! So (neglecting exchange rates & the $250 I’d pay my Canadian agent), my Volt purchased in Canada would cost me $10,000 less than in the US, right!?!?
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:33 am
The Province is offering the incentive (think State).
It’s open to ANY plug in electric.
I DO agree presenting it at a Chevy dealer was a bit of poor judgement.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:34 am
I don’t have the answer, but of course GM wants to show its gratitude to the Canadian government for its support, and since the Volt will be made in Detroit, its only a short distance (across the river) to Ontario.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Actually, most of the Japanese wealth transfer is borrowed money. Their debt to GDP level is the largest in the world. In fact, Moody’s just downgraded their debt (although unlike ours, most of their debt is domestically owned.)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=adz9rcVTSxUA
But, yes, this does have an inhibiting effect on consumption in Japan. They have the opposite problem we do–we have too much domestic consumption, and not enough domestic investment. They spend too much on investment, and not enough on consumption. This leads to a Japanese trade surplus, and a massive world trade imbalances. (It’s also a natural result of their demographics, but that’s another post.)
However, personally, I’d rather be in the Japanese situation. At the end of the day, they have a functional productive industry, a low unemployment rate, and an even lower poverty rate.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:42 am
statik reports on $2,500 price increase…
——————————————–
Actually it’s for the addition of special option package C that comes with every car sold in Canada and includes a flag decal and travel brochure in the glove box
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:44 am
StevePa said In my view what matters is whether Canadian citizens think the 10K subsidy is a good way to spend their tax dollars.
—————-
I agree. The views of those working for GM are important, and so are those of Canadians working for Toyota or choosing to buy Toyotas.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:48 am
We’re not entirely convinced that the technology is a winning proposition for consumers today,” said Beatty.
But it appears to be so and we don’t want to look stupid for refusing to build a ‘real’ plug in since the Plug In Prius really doesn’t ammount to much of anything.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:48 am
They’re not angry about the auto bailout. They’re upset because their own technology may become obsolete. More than that, the Canadian government just announced that they consider the Prius yesterday’s technology. That’s not good for Toyota’s marketing. And now they have to invest more money than they planned in R&D.
In fact, given the Japanese government’s numerous subsidies to their own companies/markets, I would consider this the Canadian and US government’s leveling the playing field.
Not only that, but EV production does benefit everyone. Society more than the individual purchaser. So, the government should provide a subsidy. It’s a market correction. Paying for positive externalities. The government should also tax gasoline so that it reflects its real cost to society, but that’s a different issue. (And I believe Canada does have higher gasoline taxes than the US.)
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:48 am
The whole Crony Capitalism thing is a bit over my head, but I think most of us in Canada have accepted the fact that we are Socialist/Facist and always will be. Also, I doubt there has ever been a government in the world that meets your criteria for Free Market Capitalism, so I don’t think it has ever been replaced with this Crony Capitalism thing.
Anyways, it was pretty well publicized that Toyota supported the “bailout” measures and did not want GM or the Big Three to fail.
For example: “We support measures to help the industry,” said Toyota Motor (TM) spokeswoman Mira Sleilati. “We just want a strong, competitive healthy industry.” (http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/news/companies/overseas_automakers/index.htm)
There are a lot of reasons as to why the Ontario government is offering these subsidies. One that has not been mentioned (as far as I can see) is that they have a large auto manufacturing industry, which has suffered recently. Perhaps they are hoping to be on the leading edge of the electrification of the fleet and may wish to start producing some of these vehicles in some of their idle plants.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:50 am
That’s not a solution. The ICE is still connected to the drive train so it’s only a plug in for 10 miles at under 35mph! That’s about enough to take little Johnny around the block on back roads to his friends house. At least the Volt will go 40 miles at realworld speed under pure electric.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Please remember that the HSD design includes a substantial battery. That battery can be charged through a plug with only minor modifications to the overall design. The basic HSD design is electric at low speed, ICE at high speed. It is a good design and readily adaptable to plug-in.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Until you find out that the Canadian government considers the 10K income and that pushes you into the next tax bracket. So you pay more because you’re now in a higher tax bracket and because you just made 10K more in 2010!
Of course I have no idea if this is true, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all.
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:55 am
W-w-w-w-wait a moment. Are you aware that we canadians get screwed every time we buy a new car?
Not so long ago, when the US and CAD dollars were around parity, you could buy a brand new Honda accord in the US for about 19.000US. In Canada, that was 25.000 $CAD.
So fast forward to fall 2010, the Volt will be 40.000$US. In Canada, it will be more like 50.000$CAD if 1$US = 1$CAD. Otherwise, it could be more. So your 10k tax rebate evaporates…
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July 17th, 2009 at 10:56 am
No joke. I bet if you took all of the government subsidies that Toyota has received from Japan over the last 6 decades, it would pale in comparison to what the US has done for GM and Chrysler in the last 6 months. This guy really has a big mouth.
It seems silly to charge sales tax on a car that is receiving government subsidies, no?
For those of us who live in liberal states. I am expecting state tax incentives on top of the $7,500 federal tax incentive. I might be able to afford a Volt after all.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Where’s Lance? He’ll tell you that Toyota never received a dime from Japan’s government for development of the Prius. After all, he knows, he works for them and for Toyota too!
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Pretty much anyone who can afford a Gen 1 Volt would not be affected like that.
We are already in the top rate group.
(Not counting the REALLY rich people bracket, but most people who have that much money have accountants that keep them in the lower bracket anyway.)
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Absolutely true!
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:04 am
I bet you are way wrong on that.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:05 am
The HSD planetary gearing is designed to have the ICE and the battery pack work together, not separately, so it doesn’t easily lend itself to being converted into a drive train for an EV. To the extent you change the gearing to allow the planetary gears to drive the vehicle at increasingly higher speeds, you cut down the ICE’s ability to drive the car at lower speeds. Plus using small gears spinning at higher and higher speeds isn’t a great recipe for an efficient drive train.
Seems like there would just be way too much stress on the pack. Not only would the battery and the controls have to be upgraded to power the vehicle without the ICE — with high drive train losses — you’d need to reserve a significant part of the pack to aid the ICE over a fairly large range of situations. Hard to see how you could do this in a cost effective way, and it’s not clear how well a $45K or $50K Prius with relatively poor performance could compete.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Don’t forget the mini Mountie hat plastic Rocky Mountain bear figurine and bottle of Maple syrup!
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:22 am
In that case, I must amend to:
“Either way the Gov will get everybody else’s $ back.”
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Every nation importing oil, thus a harder need for offering a subsidy is going to get it’s money’s worth in the long-term.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Dudly said:
“The whole Crony Capitalism thing is a bit over my head…”
Time to read a book or two.
The Founding Father of Crony Capitalism
Mises Daily by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
http://mises.org/story/3164
Hamiltons Curse
http://www.amazon.com/Hamiltons-Curse-Jeffersons-Revolution-Americans/dp/0307382842
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Great for Canada, but at $30k after the $10k rebate, the car is still not affordable for the vast majority of people.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:34 am
All corporations cry foul at government invention–when they aren’t the beneficiary of said intervention.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Silvio said:
W-w-w-w-wait a moment. Are you aware that we canadians get screwed every time we buy a new car?
Not so long ago, when the US and CAD dollars were around parity, you could buy a brand new Honda accord in the US for about 19.000US. In Canada, that was 25.000 $CAD.
So fast forward to fall 2010, the Volt will be 40.000$US. In Canada, it will be more like 50.000$CAD if 1$US = 1$CAD. Otherwise, it could be more. So your 10k tax rebate evaporates…
==================
Actually, we didn’t get screwed.
We didn’t notice the full advantage of our increasing dollar as it improved…that is for sure. It takes awhile for that sort of thing to filter through, but we didn’t get ’screwed’.
To a Canadian, a Accord was worth $25,000 in 2008, and still $25,000 in 2009, no difference…our lifestyle/paychecks stayed the same, as did the cost of things we buy. BUT what we CAN do now, is go to the states and buy it for $19,000 and bring it back across the border, thereby getting tremendous deal (after paying a few hundred bucks duty and the applicable taxes at the border).
For me, I travel to the states several times a year, generally once to Orlando, once to LV or California, and I catch a ton of ballgames in Detroit. My dollar goes wicked far now. A 3 day pass at Disney a few years ago cost me $325 (200ish x 1.6), this year? $220. That is money in my pocket. I don’t earn less when the value of my dollar goes up…but it does go a lot farther now.
I do know what you are saying about the annoyance of seeing Canadian pricing still being proportional higher than US pricing in a lot of cases (…although not at Hyundai. $9,995 Accent with 60 month 0% financing anyone? Toyota also cut their pricing in a ‘Canadian Dollar Strength PR blitz’, still not all the way down) Most automakers seems to be bring prices inline slowly, sucking up some extra margin along the way, and/or just bringing the new products to market at a more logical/similar price.
It will even itself out eventually when the USD stabilizes (…in 2015, lol)
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:39 am
I hear you Jim I. I’ve been toying with the idea of taking advantage of the Cash-for-Clunkers program and swapping the wife’s (used) Nissan Xterra for the new Chevy Equinox 4- banger (great mileage, better storage than Ford Escape) but a few things are holding me back. (1) Hope for a Voltec Version or a hybrid Ford Explorer. (2) The fact that as far as I can tell buying an Equinox would generate far fewer U.S. jobs than buying a Ford. You got a Chinese engine mated with a Japanese transmission being assembled in Canada. I can’t in good conscience use tax dollars to subsidize my purchase of a new vehicle that has no apparent connection to U.S. manufacturing jobs. Couldn’t GM have done some major part of the work in Youngstown?
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:40 am
It’s the being vague and implying.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:41 am
I wonder if it would be a good marketing plan to not call the E part of E-REV a gas engine but rather simply call it an on board electrical generator that will supply the needed electricity after YOUR Volt has gone around 40 miles sinse its last charging from an outlet.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:41 am
That would be competition at its finest!
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Thats about the only thing that could explain such poorly thought out opinions. Or, in my opinion, he is just trolling for responses. If I am correct he needs to change bait as this one is getting a bit rank.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:46 am
, Test
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:47 am
@statik…
“The world is more than ready to assimilate a few thousand cars burning 8 kWh a day…that is akin to asking me to ‘get ready’ to lift my index finger”
OMG….
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Dude U made me laugh so friggin hard I almost pissed my draws….
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:47 am
But you can move the car with the gasoline engine off. I typically drive the Prius on electric mode when I’m inside a parking garage. (Apparently it’s easier for the HSD to climb a hill at a steady 8mph than it is to accelerate to 20mph on the electric drive on flat ground. This shouldn’t be surprising.)
I expect that some deep but incremental changes to the HSD (quintupling the size of the electric motor, electrical components, batteries, and the electrically-driven shaft on the transmission) could make a pretty good plugin hybrid. It sounds like work, but I’d be willing to bet that it’s well within the capabilities of the team that designed the Prius.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Reminds me of something the first small business owner I worked for once said. “My competition runs ads, I get more business.”
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:52 am
“always moaning”
and groaninin and moanin and groanin….
Porn *’s
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
It shouldda been done @ a H( . y . )TERS.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
whatteva!
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Toyota has no right to talk about favoritism. They made a business decision not to pursue plug-ins. They could change that very quickly.
The Canadian government realizes that future dependency on oil is a bad thing, so they made a decision to do something about it. If Toyota built a car that got 40 miles of all-electric range, they would get the maximum rebate as well.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
You say the Volt in Canada will cost $2500 more than the comparable version in the U.S.?
That’s not news. Quite often, the difference is bigger than that.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
There is no doubt a bit of spin in that but marketing IS all about spin now isn’t it?
I think the round town average gas mileage is the main thing to point out. (It’s the thing that got ME hooked.)
If I wasn’t the first one to call it a genset instead of an ICE I was definately ONE of the first. I’m with you my friend!
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
I think Toyota will have the Plug-In Prius out in both Canada and the US in full force before the Volt, but the rebates sliding scale mutes the savings.
Toyota’s concern is that their Plug-In just qualifies for the rebate, so between the US and Canada they are looking at their Prius only qualifying for around $3,000 dollars…whereas the legislation is clearly written to maximize at GM’s 16 kWh pack.
$3,000-$4,000 off of $30,000 (?) is pretty good, don’t get me wrong…but 10% off isn’t going to cause a stampede. A guy/gal that was going to buy a new plug-in Prius anyway will say, ‘cool, thanks’…but I doubt someone out there is going to be ‘converted’ to buy one by it.
Not saying it is right or wrong…I’m just saying.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Right! They have plug-in things there too…
And terrible yet addictive wings…
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
It may only be a few miles from Detroit to Ontario, but Ontario buyers are still going to be paying double the freight costs that a buyer down in Texas will pay.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I heard July 2011 as the target date once…however, it was so long ago, I haven’t got the foggest idea where I pulled that from. So put that in the WAG file.
Your right that the 10K Ontario rebate, coupled with the fact the government is preaching right out of GM’s pulpit, and we will be making 30% of all of GM’s cars here in 2011 might ensure we get in at the start.
And if you believe Britta Gross (sp?) over at GM, who has too friggin’ long of a title to repeat or remember, she says that “green and capable” electric infrastructures get priority on rollout. We have so much power we export it out of Ontario, we have extra plugs all over the place for engine block heaters, and we have monsterous overnight capacity thanks to the concurrent nature of electricity produciton from nuclear.
/I’ll not holding my breath though…I’m still going to lightly pencil in late 2011, early 2012 for the Volt here
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Do you realize the extent that the Japanese government protects and provides subsidies for it’s industries?
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
I think it works the way intended, if Toyota can come up with a strong plug in then they can qualify for the full benefit.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Toyota Prius ads have been nuts lately. I can’t watch 10 minutes of television w/out seeing a commercial for the Prius. And they are almost like infomercials.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Can you sell the Xterra for more than $3500? If so you are better selling it or trading it in, versus the Cash for Clunkers.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Aw man, the hot ones burn on the way in AND OUT!
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
‘Fiat Currency’…. is that what was used to buy Chrysler?
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
You need to read up on the Hymotion conversion, and even more pertinent, read up on Toyota’s experimental plug-in fleet.. all that you are worried about can be solved by simple changes.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
If your talking 30K Canadian after rebates, most of us can afford that (who can afford a new car at all that isn’t Korean)…a G6 starts at like $25,000 here, lol.
It is truly hard to peg a Volt MSRP in Canada at this point. The USD is just crazy unstable right now, however the trend is constantly up for us since the US canned paygo, started laying on the debt early in this decade…and gas prices picked up (with the exception the little economic crisis that freaked the world last fall and all the money flowed back into USD…irony included).
If the economy in the US stabilizes we probably hover around par. If I had to guess, the Volt comes out here around $45,000 Cdn. +/- $5,000
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Heeh…24 hours in and I’m still not banned.
/one can only assume they don’t work weekends (other than Natalie)
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
WHAT?!
Why would the Canadian Volt cost more than the US version?
Cold weather?
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
I’m waiting for the “User does not exist” message….
lol
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
That 35mph limit is imposed by the amount of power the electric motor can deliver — it has nothing to with the form of the energy as it’s being transferred around the vehicle.
You can drive a stock 2nd gen Prius at 70+mph on just the electric motor. Downhill. One place where this behavior happens is on I-70 when you’re heading from Western Maryland in to Baltimore with the cruise set to around 73mph.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Amazing.. I bet Toyota headquarters is really pissed about this. I eagerly wait for Hymotion to release the kit for the 2010 Prius, and perhaps even update to the new A123 automotive cells.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
…and that would make sense if this was the weekend, lol
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Hey, if you like that one, you should check out the one to Britta Gross, who, unfortunatley has the job/title of “Manager, Energy and Environment-Infrastructure Commercialization ” …which used to be “GM’s manager of Hydrogen and Electrical Infrastructure Development and Strategic Commercialization”" I wonder where the Hydrogen went? lol…guess that ‘infrastructure didn’t go so well on that one, lol.
Here it is:
—————————
Hi Britta, I confess to still not really understanding what you do, however I wonder if you could clear something up for me.
You said that, “In order for the Chevy Volt to become mainstream, a plug-in infrastructure must be in place…a green/capable grid and plug-in ready communities”
How do you reconcile that goal, with the fact you (GM) are rolling out the Volt initially into the two places most in contradiction with that statement…specifically California and New York.
California has a massive energy problem, the governor says shortfalls by 2011, and any extra capacity needed is imported from some very ‘dirty’ plants at a huge cost premiums. Likewise for New York, their increased demand, coupled with ‘renewable initiatives’ led them to put out a statement in mid 2008 that they would be in serious trouble by 2012, and would also have shortages. The cost of adding/importing power to these grids is enormous, and the pricing there is already sky high.
Yet, places that do have excess capacity, and are ‘uber-green’ are not included in the initial rollout, in contradiction to your statement. It would seem to be that the rollout is strictly based on what market is most condusive to GM itself and the cities that give GM the most PR cred brownie points (like SF, that has had a LONG history of terrible electric service and was one of the largest polluters up until a couple years ago…they are doing it because they still have a image problem).
If that were not so, wouldn’t the Volt come out in places like Arizona…or in my home province of Ontario, where we have oodles of unused overnight capacity from nuclear production that just evaporates?
The conundrum for you is that the places that are ‘green’ and have excess ‘infrastructure’ are not also the places where millions of people live on top of each other and provide the biggest market.
It would seem to me that you are looking for places that will put on good a show with you at their side, and erect ‘charging stations’ in front of their city halls for good PR, and/or to give tax incentives to GM, or to conjure up some fleet sales.
I have a plug in my garage, and I know how to use it. My region has power to whazoo, and it is cheap…under 5 cents USD (pre-fees). The only thing I really need is for you to sell me a car.
/any thoughts?
—————————
…and yes, I am a jackass, I’m sure she is a very nice lady
Sidenote: I enjoyed your profile:
http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php?option=com_community&view=profile&userid=357
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Without taking the time to read the other comments posted so far, I have just one thing to say to Toyota: “If you don’t like it stop selling vehicles in the North American market”. That would suit me just fine since I have never owned a Toyota (although I have passed up the opportunity a number of times after test drives and sales pitches). Now, I will try to read what you guys have been saying. I am sure it is very choice comments.
Oh, and before I forget it, thanks to the Canadian government for the helping hand. I am sure our northern brethren will be pleased when they go to get their hybrids or Volts.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Cobays is sold to Bosch /Samsung
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/17/bosch-samsung-battery-venture-buys-cobasys/
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
So soly Toyota! (Sorry about the bad pun as well folks) GREAT hope the province of Quebec does the same. They should, after all our electricity is almost uniquely produced by hydro which is emmision free and appart from relocating a few fish and beavers not harmful to the environment (OK OK you greenies…and after the “river-native” mercury settles back down in the bed of the river after being stired up by construction work). This would make buying a Volt more affordable and therefore, much more likey. AND ALL THE MONEY STAYS HERE. ARE YOU LISTENING MY DEAR GOVERNMENT!!!
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Statik,
My personal opinion as to why Toyota is being real quite is that they are working their butts off trying to get a plug-in into production and out to the dealers in the U.S. and Canada before GM launches the Volt. They want to crash GM’s goal of producing the world’s first mass-produced electric plug-in vehicle. Sure, the vehicles will not be even comparable, but the press and the public won’t notice the difference. Plus, if they do a good job on it and get some decent miles in EV mode, they could knock a lot of Volt sales by the wayside and convert them to Prius sales.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
He doesn’t have the “green tag” yet so its not legal to do that.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Sounds about right.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
I have no pity for Toyota. They have done business in North America for decades and were given a fair and level playing field. Until Japan stops favoring their local companies with such harsh import tariffs, I can only love when this happens.
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July 17th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
That is why, DonC, a few of us here never thought the current Prius was a long term threat to the Volt. The biggest threat to the Volt currently is GM and the government along with the UAW. You might have GM acting as in the past, the government wanting to go one way while GM wants to go another and along with that you could have a UAW that wants what it wants and would be willing to stop everything until it gets its way. That has been their game in the past and GM has bowed down to them each time.
I liked your explanation very much. Wish I was as knowledgeable on these mechanical matters.
Edited: Plus, if Toyota charges the $40,000+ they were talking about for a plug-in Prius, it puts it in the same price range as the Volt. The Volt “should” win every time based on that alone.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Nasaman,
If this program works as the hybrid program did, it is indeed a ‘rebate program’ It is not tied to income tax and/or is not a taxable income. Under the last initiative, all you had to do was:
Provide a photocopy of your sales or long-term lease (for 12 months or more) agreement, along with the VIN,, and provide proof of provincial vehicle registration…then you got a check in the mail.
I will gladly purchase ‘extra’ Volts for a small fee…however, your US $7,500 is NOT a tax deduction, and you do not have to have paid $7,500 in taxes to get that money, it is a tax credit, that is refundable…the same way as your ‘child tax credit’ is.
I’m a little hazy on how that works with AMT, but I think there was a provision and/or clarification put out on it at some point…and you still get the $7,500. (but I’m not sure)
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
The travel brochure is for U.S. destinations at that!
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
2015 might be a big stretch, Statik.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Being a Canadian, I’d love to get $10,000 off a Volt, but I can’t help but to wonder how necessary a $10,000 “rebate” from the government is necessary for people to buy plug-in vehicles.
I think that GM will easily sell all their Volts in their first year of production (estimated at 10,000… which means about 1,000 for Canada)… even without the $7,500 USD or $10,000 CAD incentive. The green movement is building. I remember reading in a forum once where somebody wanted the new Prius with the solar panels–even if it cost $3,000 extra… he just had to have it! If some people are willing to pay $3,000 just for a stupid fan to run when they aren’t in the vehicle, that tells you something about how much money they have to spend on a new vehicle. So you run the air conditioner for 30 more seconds to cool off the car… big deal… well, I guess for some people it is.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
July 17th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Lately living in a “liberal” state, as you call it, only means that the state is in financial trouble after all the give-away programs and the businesses leaving the state for better climates. Good luck.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Speaking of marketing in Japan: How many Volts do you think GM will be allowed to bring into Japan over a 10 year period beginning in 2011? Not many, I would suspect.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
God only knows (and maybe transport Canada)
All cars cost quite a bit more in Canada than in the US.
I assume it’s taxes but really do not know for certain.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
What Toyota is really saying is that no government should give out any subsidies until Toyota has vehicles ready to receive the subsidy. If that were to be the case here Toyota would be all smiles and hugs. Since that is not the case, they belly ache. Sorry, Toyota it was your decision not to be ready with a plug-in by now. Plus, you still have time to get one on the firing line. You just don’t get to call the shots and that is upsetting to your people. Oh my, so terrible. So sorry!
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Old Man,
Look at the negative responses. I say he has gotten the kind of response he should be getting.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
“We support government ownership and subsidies if its in our own country (because we’ve been doing it for years), but if other countries start catching on and implement some of that, we are shocked, surprised, and really angry.”
-Toyota
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Yup, that sounds about right.
About the same price as an M-B C300 AWD.
I want my Volt but they are in tough.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
So direct quotes from managing director of Toyota Canada Inc. are now “spin”?
_________________________
If the questions asked go unanswered, yes.
It’s the difference between the idea promoted and the realities of business that cause the problem.
Consider the quantity & duration of sales. How much of an impact does that actually have on the 2020 goal?
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
A tough but fair (if a bit sarcastic) questioning!
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Unfortunately, the rebate is only for Ontario – Not Alberta, Manitoba or anyone els!
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
I disagree with Dan
Freight would be understood as delivery charges. More detailed explanations regarding what “freight” means would be helpful from poster “Dan”.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
You know what’s funny is they keep selling that fukin stupid “Plig-in-ready” sh|t. WTF is up with that. Check the batter discussion.
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
To Toyota…..
PUTTA PLUG IN IT!!!!
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July 17th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Didn’t Toyota say the price of the plug-in Prius would be $40,000+? Not $30,000.
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Yep, but here’s hoping…
Of course in Alberta we are mostly coal power…
(it IS really low sulfur coal though)
Somebody ’said’ the word nuclear here and there were 10 instant protest groups… sigh…
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Cash for Clunkers should have been written to exclude any vehicle not manufactured by GM, Ford or Chrysler. Let the others eat cake.
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Toyota and Honda was concerned about the stability of the auto suppliers, period. They could care a rat’s a$$ about GM, Ford or Chrysler. Many of those same suppliers supply Toyota and Honda many, many parts.
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
I say screw Toyota – Toyota imports most of its stuff from off shore and only assembles it here. They did not start out here and build the bussiness as Did GM, Ford and Chrysler. They have no right to bitch and complain- I say go back to Japan if you do not like it!!
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
You can add an “s” to the word decade. This one is about lost also.
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
He’s talking about the ’standard’ delivery charges when you buy a car.
And he’s absolutely right!
Living out west I have less to complain about on that point though.
For a base Malibu with no options added.
Off the US Chevy site, delivery $720 (to Zip 90210) That made me laugh!
Off the Canadian chevy site, delivery $1375 (To Calgary)
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
What else is new?
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
To Toyota…..
PUTTA PLUG IN IT!!!!
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
To Toyota…..
PUTTA PLUG IN IT!!!!!!!
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
To Toyota…….
PUTTA PLUG IN IT!!!!..
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
To Toyota…
PUTTA PLUG IN IT!!!
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
statik,
I know a lot is covered by Canada’s taxes but can you give me a sense for what the %’s are?
TIA,
Be well,
Tagamet
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
To Toyota…..!
PUTTA PLUG IN IT!!!!!
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
‘nough said!
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
FYI, here’s a tidbit of a question about the “Waiting List”…
Hi Eric. As you know, Lyle Dennis’ site has no affiliation with General Motors or Chevrolet. The “Want List” is Lyle’s personal way to guage consumer interest and doesn’t reflect an official waiting list sanctioned by Chevrolet. We will be sharing plans soon about how customers can be one of the first to purchase a Volt. Stay tuned. No new news to share just yet.
VoltPRguy
Fuk…….
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
You crack me up!
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I know, and whenever you ask them, they really can’t verbalize what the heck they actually do. I don’t think they know…they do what they do, lol. It is not like GM (or anyone who workds there) can ‘fix the grid’ if it is not green.
California and New York are running train wreck electric grids and abysmal production, the prices are spiralling out of control and they both aren’t sure how to meet demand in 2011/2012 if it continues as is…what the heck can GM to do fix that, AND to get them to switch to ‘green’/renewable production. (Unless they want to donate that 30 billion the government gave them to PG&E)
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
lol…..
I bet their thinking in their minds….
“Aw fuk, it’s those guys from that other site…..”
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Yet Toyota’s plug-in conversion can do 62mph on electric power.. they did that by re-gearing the motors.. and the recently announced 3rd party achievement of 70mph by just a software change (on level ground)… and no one has started messing around with the 2010 Prius yet.
Keeping your head buried in the sand will not keep the competition from eating your lunch. Toyota can and will adjust the Prius to achieve good performance as a plug-in.. bank on it.
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
I’m no fan of them either. The one where the car goes by and turns winter to summer seems like a “buy our car and you’ll spread global warming” ad to me…
Wouldn’t it be great if car commercials actually had something to do with the car? You know, maybe show someone loading up the back with boxes and groceries, and then getting 45mpg on the way home? But, no, we see cartoony flowers or some frat-ish 1990s hipsters washing a Buick by the pool for no particular reason. I wonder what kind of nuts showed up when they focus-grouped these ads?
But, then again, I hate commercials in general, and the only function they seem to serve is to remind me to get off my @$$ and go clean the house or something.
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Just out of curiosity–do you have something against Toyota? I admit I don’t know that much about the auto industry. But how are they different from any other foreign automaker?
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July 17th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
A Chinese engine? I knew they were importing parts from China, but the engine? Is that even safe? Are they using them in a lot of their other cars? How do I find out about this before buying a car?
I wish that in addition to saying how much is made in North America, they would also list the “not-made-in-China” content. I’d feel a lot safer with that number at 100%. Although that might be wishful thinking…
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July 17th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
I’m not convinced it will even out eventually. A lot of things are simply more expensive in Canada, probably due to the size of our market.
The good news is nothing prevents us from shopping across the border – I fly to California every Xmas, from Buffalo. 240$US RT, multiply that by 4 for the family.
However, purchasing a new car in the US is another beast – first of all, you lose the warranty. Then count the time you will be wasting importing it, etc. Not worth it unless you’re on EI!
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July 17th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
LOL. This is your interpretation of what Toyota is thinking, correct? I was gonna say the same thing. lol.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
The point is that these cars are all sourced in the US (or the vast majority of them. Very few models are produced entirely in Canada)
so when we see a $6000 difference, we should expect to see some prices drop. That $6000 profit is going somewhere (i.e. someone’s pocket).
The dealers buy cars at the price of the manufacturer, which is either in USD or USD converted to CAD.. where are my extra savings? :p
I find it amazing how prices took forever to even out to the US ones when the CAD was 10% higher, and the second it dipped below, prices skyrocketed back to their previous disparities.. so much for “taking time to filter out”
In the end, we will see a $40 000 volt in the US. $45 000 in Canada base price (adjusted for whatever the exchange is.. this may be $40 000 CAD, or 50 000 CAD or somewhere in between), but since there’s the $10 000 credit, retail price will end up being in the $5k’s (Or 49999.99 – as if they’re really fooling anyone). Just watch. :p
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Definitely. The Eco-Auto rebates and the other one (forget which was named which. One was ON and one was federal)
Offered rebates for buying a hybrid or highly efficient vehicle (differing values depending on fuel efficiencies or car status – hybrid vs non, etc).
Surprise, surprise, Toyota had the highest number of cars on the list (I believe) and that probably counted for much of their sales. Now that the government is supporting new initiatives in electrics, (which toyota has opted against devleoping), they’re pissed at being left out.
Boo hoo.
If you want the sales associated with the credits, make electrics. It doesn’t take a genius, here.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
“Curious about the timing of July 2010…”
No doubt it’s July 2010 as that is when Ontarian’s get hosed with more taxes.
In July 2010, all taxable goods will be subject to HST which combines our two current taxes (GST – federal 5% and PST – provincial, 8%) into one.
Right now, many items are sales tax exempt (most grocery items, etc) and some are only subject to GST. Those that are only GST today, will be charged an extra 8% next year because of the HST.
It’s apparently “not about the money”, but in simplifying the books. (Yeah.. right..)
Guess they “forgot” about the instant 8% hike on the price of gas…
My guess is that the new flood of money from gas will go to pay for these credits.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Who else had a highway capable model to show?
No one. :\
Zenn’s still NEV’s, or they’d be the best choice for Canadian “home-grown” EV’s.
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Did anyone notice that the incentive starts just 3 days before the Independence Day release of the Volt? (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
No – your dollars gone to wallstreet and the iraq war.
The $ govt is now giving out comes from China
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
I might be wrong, but you also have to take into account that GM has been paying about 36% corporate taxes for the last 100 years or so. Toyota? Not so much.
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July 17th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
As far as liberal states’ economies. It’s becoming pretty clear that there is an extremely clear correlation between unemployment and liberalness of the tax structure. It’s so obvious, I am shocked that no one is bringing it up. All of the blue states are completely economically in the crapper right now. That being said, there is still likely to be tax incentives for plugins in those liberal states whether you agree with how things are being run or not.
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
I’m sure that other provinces will be offering incentives soon. I suspect that in BC (where I live) monies collected though the provincial Carbon Tax will be used for EV and EREV rebates. (Most fossil fuels in BC have a “Carbon Tax” surcharge of $25 per tonne of CO2 emmissions.)
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Were not the protests in response to the suggestion to build nuclear reactors to provide power to help extract oil from the tar sands?
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July 18th, 2009 at 12:03 am
The planetary power split design used in the Prius and the Escape is based on patents from TRW.
One of the other designs in the same patent covers an improvement to the design where the ring gear can be connected to the engine, held stationary, or connected to MG1 using clutches like an automatic transmission.
When it’s connected to the engine, it works in hybrid mode normally.
The benefit of the extra clutches comes when the car is in electric mode. If the ring is held stationary instead of connected to the engine, it allows the MG1 with a torque increasing reduction to add it’s torque to MG2 . This gives far better low end acceleration in electric only since both motors are pushing the car.
At higher speeds, the ring gear is connected to MG1. This allows the car to go at high speed without starting the engine (the Prius can’t) and lets MG1 help move the car instead of being idle in electric only mode.
Yes, it adds the complexity and cost of three hydraulics in a clutch, but improves the electric only performance a lot.
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July 18th, 2009 at 12:03 am
Why would the Canadian Volt cost more than the US version?
- – - – - – - – - – - -
The difference between my Canadian model 2005 Suzuki Aerio SX and the US model was: heated mirrors and a plug for the block heater. Apparently these must be expensive items the price difference was about $160 (as before taxes). On the West coast, heated mirrors are nice for the occasional frost – but what’s the block heater used for!?
Seriously … I gather that smaller cars typically fetch higher prices in Canada as they are in higher demand. Some bigger (gas guzzling) vehicles have historically sold for less than the US – perhaps due to the higher cost of ownership (increased gasoline prices?). It all comes down to what the market will bear …
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July 18th, 2009 at 12:05 am
It’s 42 MPH in electric only mode.
And that’s because of the gearing chosen for the power split planetary. See my comments above about design changes.
It’s not a power limit, it’s a RPM limit to prevent making MG1 into a grenade.
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July 18th, 2009 at 12:06 am
It’s that “provincial registration” that will stymie the export market.
Transferring vehicle registration from one province to another is bad enough – transferring it out of the country can be very challenging!
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July 18th, 2009 at 12:43 am
Then there’s the health care and pensions that the Japanese government pays for. And the profits Toyota makes in the closed Japanese market, which could also be considered an indirect government subsidy.
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July 18th, 2009 at 12:48 am
It makes me glad I live in the land of the free, where I only pay 9.75% sales tax, $8800/yr in property tax, $16600/yr in private school tuition and a combined 34.3% income tax.
Thank God I don’t live in some socialist hellhole with universal healthcare and public education for an extra 3.25% sales tax.
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July 18th, 2009 at 12:51 am
Actually, Canada generally has a trade surplus with Japan, which is why I was surprised that the Canadian government would get involved.
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July 18th, 2009 at 12:57 am
nasaman: “I never owe any income tax” (in EXTRA BOLD)
I wish I had a hacker/IRS agent on speed dial to ID you for a extra-special audit…
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July 18th, 2009 at 1:15 am
Umm…where is this 16kwh pack going to be packaged into the Prius design?
They could take advantage of the extra battery energy without changing the other hardware in their design but in reality it would be as BER (Boosted Electric Range). They would have do significant control software redsign. This isn’t a huge deal but would allow a fairly simple and inexpensive Prius plug-in. It would be subject to the same ICE utilization as the current HEV, with an extended period of EV only “capable” driving (i.e. don’t floor it, don’t accelerate up a hill, don’t go above EV only speed, etc). This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, just different functionality than the Volt. The Prius would get extremely high mileage (>100mpg) during this period. Still, where to put large, heavy 16kwh battery? Also, tax insentives may limit the benefit to this approach with AER requirements.
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July 18th, 2009 at 1:41 am
New York City’s electricity comes from nuclear, natural gas, and hydro-electric power. No coal involved. We also have the option of using wind power. And Con Ed (our provider) is investing heavily in expanding wind power production.
http://www.coned.com/newsroom/news/pr20090420.asp
Yes. We have shortages. (Although not so much given the current economic climate.) But our base electricity is relatively green. And we are working on increasing the amount we get from renewal sources.
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July 18th, 2009 at 8:11 am
So, here’s the dealo.
Volt price OTS: $40,000
Plug-in rebate: $-7,500
Cash-for-clunker: $-4,500
Install new “energy efficient windows in Volt”: $-3,000
Replace heater/ac in Volt with new energy star rated heater/ac: $-3,000
Total price: $22,000 (Now that’s I price I can afford!)
PS: Maybe you buy your Volt from CJS and bribe him with a couple bottles of rum, and he gets you another $2,000 off the MSRP, so now your talking $20,000!
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July 18th, 2009 at 10:52 am
62.3%
Hehe, I’m not exactly sure what you are asking me Tag.
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July 18th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Yupe, the MSRP of vehicles from GM was forced down somwhat when our dollar got stronger, but the delivery charge was not…it is a nice cash cow for them atm.
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July 18th, 2009 at 11:06 am
In a lot of our states, the total taxes are over 50% now and headed higher. I was just trying to gauge Canada’s % compared to ours. I’m not even sure (I’m ashamed to say) how your tax system works i.e. are there ways to “protect” income from taxes?
Just trying to get educated.
Thanks and be well,
Tagamet
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July 18th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Yes, New York city has a lot of ‘green/renewable’ programs, I don’t debate that, New York produces mostly cleanish power, but the fact is there isn’t enough for the city and the state. New York is always pulling power from wherever on the grid it can find it, and that isn’t green at all…and it is a expensive thing to do.
“State energy experts forecast a shortfall of electricity in the state by 2012, especially in the New York City area” – Jerry Kremer, chairman of New York AREA,
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/02/new_york_city_e.php
“Governor makes priority of passing new law to combat impending energy shortage ”
http://www.timesunion.com/ASPStories/story.asp?StoryID=659800
“Renewables can’t do it by themselves,” Moore (Greenpeace who is acting as an adviser to New York AREA) said. “We have to look at nuclear energy as an essential part of the mix. It’s not a silver bullet, but it’s pretty close to it.”
—
My point is, if ‘readiness’ was truely a factor, it is hard to argue California or New York at the top of the list. New York is not even ready for the economy to stabilize, the best thing that happened to electric providers in your state was the recession.
In 2007, the only state that paid more for electricity was Hawaii, and it is not even a close race on the mainland, lol:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/FTPROOT/brochures/rep2007/images/us%20map.png
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July 18th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Waaaaa! Waaaaaa! Canda noes plays fairs! Waaaaa!
There is justice in this universe. Toy, choosing to sit on their laurels and dupe as many pathetic sheeple into many more years of ICE/Big Oil dependence, is fast realizing that lovely ass-bitten feeling. STFU Toy, and STFU you Toy fanboi d-bags.
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July 18th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
That’s a real joke that “toyodo” is “angry”…
Japan where they keep all competitors OUT…
Try to sell a car in JAPAN…
A Chevy Cobalt costs $45,000 in JAPAN and they have the ###’s to say they are “angry” about a subsidy on one low production vehicle!
Where was the anger when they got the Japanese government money to build the Prius?
They sure aren’t “angry” when we let them build plants in the US and PAY NO US TAXES!!!
What a joke!
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July 18th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Toyota spends a million dollars an hour on advanced vehicle research and while everyone is quick to poke at Toyota, it should be pointed out that Toyota is probably correct about the public and battery electric vehicles. The subsidy gives BEVs and/or EREVs an unfair advantage over fuel cell cars. Toyota is on the verge of commercializing a fuel cell vehicle. Government cannot subsidize the greening of the automobile by favoring inferior green technology. First off, where does the money come from? Second off, no matter how much these EREVs are subsidized, the technology isn’t ready for prime time. The market should decide if battery electric or fuel cell is ultimately the way to go, not Joseph Romm or the government in general.
The goal should be to help car companies make a profit producing and selling greener cars without government subsidies. Only when a green car goes head to head with the ICE will the volume of cars that is needed to make a difference get produced. This subsidy should be available for the purchase of a fuel cell car as well if it is offered at all.
It is past time to build hydrogen refueling infrastructure. It is past time to experiment with having municipal vehicles run on hydrogen.
Think garbage trucks, street sweepers, post office cars, etcetera.
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July 19th, 2009 at 12:48 am
I think I misinterpreted your post. So, I apologize. I thought you were saying that New York doesn’t have a “green grid.” And we do. Relatively speaking, anyway. You’re right about the additional electricity. Although I doubt 1000 or so Volts (if we get that many) that will mostly be charged at night and in the suburbs will make that much of a difference.
I actually agree with you that New York City is the last place that GM should roll out the Volt. (Although it benefits me, so I’m not complaining.) Most people here live in apartments, and the public garages don’t have electric outlets. And when we do leave the city, we often drive more than 40 miles.
That said, I’m pretty sure they’ll sell out whatever they decide to send us. Lutz was right about that at least–there are a lot of wealthy environmentalists in NYC. Or, at least, they will if they manage to explain the concept to the general public…(If I were in charge at GM, I would spread the first generation out as much as possible in order to maximize exposure to the first adopters.)
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July 19th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
I understand the meaning of Parallel Hybrid
I understand the meaning of Series Hybrid
I would like you to explain what a “Serial” Hybrid is .
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July 19th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Right Captain , and make it a Series Hybrid while you are at it .
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July 19th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
You can get a car shipped all the way from China for $500 , seems like somebody is really getting ripped off in Canada . (two to a container)
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July 23rd, 2009 at 1:42 am
Last I remember GM provides a good number of jobs in Canada (along with Ford and Chrysler). How many jobs does Toyota provide up there?
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July 23rd, 2009 at 9:12 pm
first of all, how about finding a decent writer, who actually KNOWS the difference between “canada” and “ontario”? hint: dalton mcsquinty is NOT the “canadian government”!
second, why is it good to give buyers of the chevy volt, a totally unproven design, $10,000 dollars, without, at least, making the same offer to prius buyers, who are buying a technology that actually works, and is probably better for the environment?
the volt only uses about half the 40-mile capacity of its battery, and it loses another half of that when the temperature drops to freezing. so the whole “plug-in electric” song-and-dance is totally moot for the whole winter in canada – 8 hours of charging to go the first 5 miles (before the gas engine cuts in) is no big whoop. at that point, you’re just driving a very expensive prius, only without the performance.
stephen leacock couldn’t have written better material…
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July 24th, 2009 at 5:05 am
toyota has factories employing thousands, as do all the major “japanese” car companies. that’s been part of the “deal” since the late 70’s, just like the (now-defunct) auto pact with the states. some models are even built exclusively in canada and exported.
detroit does build cars in canada, but only when it suits them. their canadian factories stay open only so long as it’s cheaper and better in canada. but even then, they can and do close them to “protect american jobs”. that’s just one of the advantages of working for a “domestic” car company like gm.
and just like detroit, the japanese keep their engineering and design work (the highest-paying skilled jobs) “at home”.
so the idea of detroit being “domestic” while the japanese are “foreign” is obsolete, misleading, and just plain silly.
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July 24th, 2009 at 9:09 am
What Toyota’s are built in Canada? Where are the plants?
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