On Wednesday Ontario Canada’s Premier Dalton McGuinty announced that the Ontario government would provide buyers of plug-in hybrid vehicles a rebate of $4000 to $10,000 dollars for cars purchased after July 1, 2010. A $7500 tax credit exists for the Volt in the US.
McGuinty said “we want to make it easier to buy green cars,” and pledged a goal of 1 in 20 cars to be electric on Canada’s roads by 2020.
The Premier actually made the announcement at a Chevrolet dealership while stepping in and out of a Volt show car. Buyers of the Volt could expect the full $10,000.
He did not state the program’s cost. Other incentives mentioned were special green license plates and preferred parking spots in places like Wal-Mart.
Toyota had not been notified of this decision and was caught off guard. In return for $3.16 billion in funding the Canadian governemnt is a 12% owner of the new GM, and as such the Japanese automaker expressed concerns of favoritism.
“How long does this continue?” said Stephen Beatty, managing director of Toyota Canada Inc. “We can’t set up a situation where the future of the industry depends on constant subsidies.”
“This suggests that (the government) is prepared to be interventionist beyond their aim to help the industry recover,” he said. “The question is: Is this a well thought-out industry strategy? Or is it sort of the next stage in advancing a particular product and helping a particular company?”
Toyota will only be producing a limited test fleet of 500 global plug-in Priuses by the end of 2010, and have hesitated to publicly embrace the technology which could make their hybrid synergy drive obsolete. “We’re not entirely convinced that the technology is a winning proposition for consumers today,” said Beatty.
Source (Windsor Star) and (LeaderPost)
This entry was posted on Friday, July 17th, 2009 at 6:14 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
+9
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:26 am)This has a very easy solution, just offer a plug-in Prius and share in all that loot.. sheez sometimes Toyota is too conservative. We dont even ask for 40 miles of range, start with 5 miles and work your way up.
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:37 am)I like the competition from Canada. Perhaps the US Govt. will up the rebate from 7500 to compete with them! The Volt can then truly be an ‘average’ American’s vehicle to potentially own.
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+8
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:39 am)I don’t think Toyota is nearly as concerned about “favoritism” when they are on the receiving end of the proposition.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:44 am)statik should be in a good mood today!
john1701a will not be too happy………
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+10
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:44 am)What an interesting (disingenuous?) reaction from a company whose national government for years subsidized that same company, and provided a protective trade environment that discouraged significant competition from outside auto manufacturers.
In my view what matters is whether Canadian citizens think the 10K subsidy is a good way to spend their tax dollars. What Toyota thinks about it matters not a whit.
Curious about the timing of July 2010…perhaps looking to encourage GM to ship some early production run Volts northward?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (6:58 am)…statik is always in a good mood
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+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (6:58 am)My thoughts exactly: The shoe’s on the other foot.
My guess: Toyota will move forward sooner than later with its plug-in Prius.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:02 am)On the one hand, Toyota has Watanabe to thank for not moving on a plug-in hybrid sooner – otherwise Toyota would be a beneficiary of this policy.
On the other hand, this is exactly why governments should not own companies, as they craft policies that give an advantage to their own interests. I hope a comprehensive review is done after the auto companies return to private financing to assess what was done properly and what wasn’t.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:02 am)It seems that Ontario may be an ideal locale for the Volt. They get 52% of their power from nuclear, and the rates are about 5 or 6 cents per kWh (Statik can verify).
Since nuclear plants run base load around the clock, that means that nightime charging may be 60 to 80% nuclear.
http://www.investinontario.com/siteselector/oout_507.asp
Of course Canada is coming under scrutiny due to the fact that its global CO2 emissions are on the rise, and plug-ins (especially in Ontario) could have a major effect on CO2.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602099&sid=aKecgoGFIH7Y
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:03 am)There is alot of negative play up here in Canada about this incentive. Lots of misinformation about what VOLT is and also giving money to the rich to buy expansive cars that only go 65 Kilometers before you have to stop and recharge them.
We here at GM-VOLT have drunk to Koolaid and we can’t see why anyone would be against this incentive. But out in the real world…
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+10
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:05 am)I personally think the Canadian guy didn’t get the memo from Toyota HQ in Japan to keep his yap shut. He said it himself, Toyota was caught unaware, and they had no clue…so he probably was acting ‘outside’ the company line.
Toyota has been surprising quiet all the way through this process the past 12 months, whether it be the ‘Advanced Technology Loans to Provide Buckets of Money to our Domestics’ last fall, the november bailout, or bailout round 2, or the lovely cash parting prizes for leaving bankruptcy for GM and Chrysler.
BTW, I mentioned this a few threads back, but we also get to drive on lawns, knock over garbage cans, and get 15% off Stones tickets with the green plates.
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:08 am)Bring it on Dalton! I’m getting a Volt and the $10000 incentive seals the deal for me. I don’t give a @#$% about what Toyota thinks.
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-2
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:09 am)Dumb A$$, you don’t have to stop after 65 km to recharge! You just keep on driving using some gas. You recharge when you get home.
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+11
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:09 am)So the Japanese get a taste of their own medicine.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:11 am)Well $10,000 CDN is about $9,000 USD atm. But it will probably be dollar for dollar by 2011.
In other news….
GM announces that the ‘Canadian Volt’ has run into some unexpected cost overruns, and unfortunately it is going to cost about $2,500 more (USD) than the American version.
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+9
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:15 am)Demetrius isn’t dumb. He said there is misinformation! So the people aren’t dumb either, they’re ignorant. Name calling probably won’t get them smart.
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+6
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:16 am)By the way, the title of this article is misleading. The Canadian government (federal) is not running the incentive program. The Ontario government (provincial) is.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (7:24 am)Isn’t the GST in Canada like 15%? So the savings aren’t as much as much as you think.
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+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:29 am)# 12!
These money back offers need to be changed to instant rebates.
In the real world … many of us are going to need to convince our loved ones that we’re buying a new Volt. The Chevy is electric and is priced about $40,000 sticker. But, the INSTANT REBATE lowers this to about $33,000 actual. Let’s get on with this.
=D~
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Jul 17th, 2009 (7:30 am)No. GST is 5% and PST is 8% in Ontario.
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-2
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:32 am)What are the requirements…. just a plug?
For $10, i’ll put a plug on a car to get the $10,000.
Don’t a lot of Canadian cars already have plugs for engine block heaters?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (7:43 am)Ah OK, that’s where i came up w/the percentage. I just remember always paying about 15% in taxes on trips to Canada, but its actually 13%.
So the price of the Volt = $40KUSD = $44,725CAD x 13% = $5814CAD. That leaves $4185CAD or the 10K rebate towards the price of the car. I think i’m better off going to a State in the US that doesnt have sales tax, or a very low one, to buy my Volt.
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-1
Jul 17th, 2009 (7:43 am)A car bought after July 2010! If Toyota hurried they could get a plug in prius out for July and sell a million of them by November when the Volt comes out and there won’t be any money left for CM (Canadian Motors).
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Jul 17th, 2009 (7:49 am)Yeah it used to be 15% total in Ontario until recently. We pay too much taxes. However, if you trade in for the Volt you don’t pay the PST on the trade in value (or is it the GST, I forget).
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Jul 17th, 2009 (7:58 am)Actually, now that i think about it, i’m still somewhat screwed because Michigan has a 6% use tax. Either way the Gov will get their $ back.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (8:06 am)Now I know who knocked down 2 mailboxes and a stop sign last night
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:09 am)It would not be surprising if the Gsned57 sequence actually occurred, and Toyota was first to market in 2010.
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+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:10 am)Now would you ever see a discussion like this on chevroletVoltage?
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-6
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:10 am)About the spin?
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:16 am)What had been and is good for Japan’s industries in being (even more heavily) subsidized by the Japanese government during the times when it was growing and needed growth,
is now
simply the same good thing that Canadians are now doing for their new plug-in industries which need growing.
AND GROW THEY MOST CERTAINLY WILL!
As well, GM and its remaining interests (including me) to the South, are fully committed to doing everything we can to promote Plug-in EREV’s because Plug-in EREV’s are absolutely
**************************
THE ONLY
**************************
technological design setup which is going to work for electrification, with true industry standards as imposed by the 18 or so (American) Federal Agencies for reliability and safety.
(EREV is the only design marketable after quantity 5,000, whereupon the strict rules of those 18 agencies relating to reliability and safety kick in, especially toward BEV’s)
The entrenched contractual impediments from which your company suffers is what is stopping Toyota from extricating itself out of a likely 10 year technological rut with HSD.
Toyota has rested on it’s laurels FAR FAR FAR too long.
Now, Toyota is paying for that, and will pay for that for the next ten years from the over reliance upon an HSD design vacation.
The only thing that will advance Toyota Motors five years sooner (staying 5 years behind), is to work toward a request to GM to purchase GM technologies for inclusion within Toyota’s product lines, if that makes sense for Toyota Motor products sold in America. You’ll need to pay one way or another.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:34 am)all that darned common sense that our loved ones have!
You want to spend WHAT to save one gallon of gas a day! (slap upside the head follows)
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:34 am)Just subcontract out to Hymotion
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:35 am)Statik at 7:05
That’s really funny!! “Driving on lawns with green plates”
[rolling on the floor LOL].
Have a productive day.
[off to work]
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-14
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:37 am)(click to show comment)
-18
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:39 am)(click to show comment)
+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:39 am)Like Toyota needs to complain, how much did the Japanese Govt recently pay them and how much of their hybrid development costs were subsidized? Toyota is hurting; they’ve been losing more money then GM and Ford lately. I guess that’s what they get for building “trucks and SUVs that no one wants to buy”.
I personally think the cash for clunkers BS should only be for Govt-owned OEMS anyway. Let’s pay back those loans as soon as we can.
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-18
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:41 am)(click to show comment)
-22
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:42 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:43 am)Dan, what is stopping Toyota from implementing a plug-in?.. either serial or parallel.. do you think they dont have the vision or the tech?
What “entrenched contractual impediments”?
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-22
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:44 am)(click to show comment)
+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:44 am)Exactly Bradyb. The Japanese government heavily subsidizes the auto industry. It gives them billions (yes billions) of dollars in free money every year.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:46 am)You mean Canada has no problem trading with Japan and as a result they buy your products and your balance of trade with them is about even? I REALLY HAVE NO IDEA AND THAT MAY BE THE ACTUAL CASE!! But it would surprise me.
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+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:48 am)You are trolling for a response arn’t you?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (8:49 am)nope
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+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:53 am)And Toyota says they are angrily caught off guard, and why, because they ignorantly don’t want to admit a plug in hybrid is better than a gas electric hybrid.
They have ridden the cash cow of thier synergy drive for ling enough, evolve or be left in the dust.
We’ll see how long they keep trying to hold out.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (8:53 am)Just the 5% GST in Alberta… no PST.
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:55 am)It is a double edged sword with taxes in this country (as you know). We pay a lot, but we get ‘free’ medical, clean roads, good schools/libraries/parks, and fully funded social security program.
As for the tax question on the car itself. In Canada, the amount of the trade-in is subtracted from the cost of the new car BEFORE taxes are calculated.
For example: I trade in my SRX on the Volt (or other EV if it beats the Volt to market), lets say the Volt is $42,500 and by the time 2011 rolls around they give me $30,000 for the SRX, the difference is $12,500. I would pay taxes on that portion, or $1,625.
(This is also another reason why leasing is bad, at least in Canada, you pay all the tax, all the time if you lease…unless you are writing it off through your business/corporation).
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+7
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:56 am)Toyota has received huge grants etc from the Governament of Japan.
I say build the EREV Silverado or Orlando in Canada
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+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (8:57 am)I believe Toyota and Honda actually came out in favor of the government rescue of GM (and Chrysler). They were concerned about a)the stability of the North American market, and b)the auto supply chain.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/news/companies/overseas_automakers/index.htm
The subsidies of EVs are a different matter. They know that if EVs actually become commercially viable, it will be a game changer. I think it’s hypocritical considering how many subsidies they got for the Prius in the closed Japanese market.
But on the other hand, you can’t blame them for being upset. They were used to being able to access the best subsidies, in the closed Japanese market–one of the largest in the world. Now everyone will able to access subsidies for new technologies. (Although it’s still nowhere near the kind of subsidies they can get in the Japanese market.) And it’s a technology that could leapfrog Toyota, and render the Prius obsolete.
This means they’re going to have to get serious about the plug-in Prius, which means spending more money on R&D at a time when they’re already bleeding cash. And, it’s still possible that this whole thing will be a waste of money. But they can’t afford to take that risk…
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Jul 17th, 2009 (8:58 am)LOL! ALL the car companies are getting tax money… just from different tax pools.
I just hope they give the same incentive here in Alberta for MY Volt!
A plug in Prius would absolutely qualify as far as I’m concerned.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:00 am)LOLROTF!!!
You crack me up Lance!
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+6
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:01 am)Unfortunately, there’s still a lot of misinformation out there about the Volt. In the US as well as Canada. Too many people still don’t know, and don’t understand about the range extender.
And when I try to explain, they instantly go back to the Prius. And talk about how GM is copying Toyota. It’s extremely frustrating.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:02 am)“the technology which could make their hybrid synergy drive obsolete.”
If by obsolete, you mean make it totally mainstream, I completely agree. Expect Toyota HSD sales (with and without plug in capability) to improve as a result of this. Anything that benefits electric drive in any way benefits all electric drive. Bring it on.
This’ll help with public (and especially dealer) education and electric drive vehicle availability, the number one and two constraints in all electric drive sales.
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+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:03 am)Lance seems to be the latest name that “no name” the troll hides behind.
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:09 am)There is a lot of sense as I see it.
Somebody got excited at a seminar and signed this thing called Kyoto… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
(I once was an amway distributor for about 3 days… it happens)
And then they got home and found out that we don’t actually have the resources to ‘go green’ overnight.
This incentive helps get a little bit closer to that goal but more importantly makes it LOOK like we are reaching for said goal.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:09 am)Curious about the timing of July 2010…perhaps looking to encourage GM to ship some early production run Volts northward?
I was told at the Vancouver Auto Show by a GM rep that the Volt would be there for the olympics (Feb 2010) He did’t say if it would be on sale. I’m sure it won’ be. Just there for PR.
There was no Volt at the Auto show… i was very dissapointed.
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+5
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:11 am)I agree. It’s not like these subsidies are limited to the Volt. Nissan and Mitsubishhi will also benefit from this subsidy.
All Toyota has to do is offer a plug-in Prius. I can see why they wouldn’t want to do it. They’re very happy with the status quo. But it’s not like they can’t. Unlike, say GM, who couldn’t have developed a hybrid and then market it in Japan if they’d wanted to.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:16 am)Absolutely!
This is where marketing just HAS to get things clear in the public eye.
I see a couple people sitting in a coffee shop (pick your favorite poison, mine has a green circle) One person says what good is a 65 km range on the new Chevy Volt? (while he sips on his small coffee) His buddy (obviously a GM-volt.com regular..
) says that’s 65 km without burning ANY gas, he then points out that if you drive 70 km that day you only burn 5 km worth of gas. Then they figure out the average gas mileage…
Friend is now convinced and says, “I guess I can afford the Venti next time then!”
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+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:17 am)A very good point!
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:20 am)Yes you did mention this a while back. Actually after reading about it you gave a surprisingly complete summary. Plus the jokes of course!
My guess is that you’re right about the Toyota spokesperson going off the reservation. The fact is that, when the Volt is released in 2010, 500 plug-in cars sold to fleets will not going to keep the Green Mantle on Toyota’s shoulders. Given all the other problems Toyota has, this may not be its number one issue.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:21 am)My wife is conflicted on this point!
She is a very good money manager and can see that a first Gen Volt is at best a wobbly financial ‘investment’..
BUT she is also an Electrical Engineer and thinks the Volt is COOL.
I have her beat on this one!
(I take the small wins as they come!)
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:22 am)LOL! I LIKE the way you think!
Yes! every car I own or have owned has had a block heater with a plug!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:23 am)I don’t think Canada is any different than the US as far as sales tax when trading in a car.
I have only bought cars in MN and MO but always paid sales tax AFTER the trade in value was deducted.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:25 am)Something our resident troll is trying hard to deny!
It’s good for a laugh though!
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:26 am)Yes, you can get a plug-in at your Toyota dealer – at least in Madison, WI. Madison dealer is offering to install A123 hymotion plug-in module at the dealership, for a mere $10K, bringing your total for a new Prius to a base of about $33K (hmmm… where have I heard a figure like that before?). As I’ve stated before, my area is the #1 per capita purchaser of the Prius, and now a Toyota dealer here is claiming to be the only installer of (hymotion?) plug-ins between Denver and Boston.
(Granted, they’ve been doing this for only a short time, and most of the first 6 customers have not been local but…) Hey, GM, plug-ins won’t just be hot sellers in D.C. and Cali. Southern Wisconsin IS part a primary part of your target market for the Volt. (And if you really want to lock up some brand loyalty, find a way to make some parts for the car at the Janesville plant.) Come here and win back your core market, and do it sooner, not later.
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/biz/458486
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:26 am)“Toyota had not been notified of this decision and was caught off guard. In return for $3.16 billion in funding the Canadian government is a 12% owner of the new GM, and as such the Japanese automaker expressed concerns of favoritism.”
Well, DUH!
Central Banking, Fiat Currency and the resulting legislative malfeasance of Political Corporate Favoritism (pay to play) known as Crony Capitalism or Socialism/Fascism has replaced Free Market Capitalism.
The market is not truly free as long as:
1) A central bank can use fiat currency to inflate/deflate the currency supply and prices while artificially manipulating interest rates and credit availability causing market boom & bust cycles and bubbles which must ultimately burst.
2) Politicians can borrow and spend without budget constraints or conscience due to the unlimited availability of fiat currency available (at interest) from the central bank. This is why only a 100% commodity backed currency is stable money and why fiat currencies ALWAYS lead to hyperinflation and systemic failure.
3) Politicians can give, loan to or invest public money in private companies.
4) Politicians can play legislative favoritism in return for campaign “support”.
5) Politicians can ignore some parts of the law while bending others outside of their original intent. This is rule of Men, not Rule of Law and it is Tyranny!
Yet when Crony Capitalism fails, the Socialists & Fascists blame the “free” market which they have been legislatively manipulating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism
I’m sure that Toyota is NOT the only company that’s angry! What about all those companies that were ready to fill in the market void with BETTER products once GM went bankrupt? Should they get EQUAL taxpayer money in order to level the playing field?
Where does this Crony Capitalism end? Hyperinflation, Loss of “faith & credit” in the fiat currency, Systemic Failure and National Bankruptcy!
Yet the Crony Politicians and their corporate masters don’t care! After all, they are now rich and can even move to another country while the people they left behind enjoy a MUCH lower quality of life.
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:27 am)I learned that one the hard way… the cost of leasing is much higher than it first appears!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:33 am)I wonder if this means that Ontario is now on the list of locations targeted for the Volt release? I’ve been assuming that it would not be and ideal location because cold winters would place more stress on the battery pack than the more mild winters you’d find in CA, but perhaps this isn’t right.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:35 am)You said: “Either way the Gov will get their $ back.”
After me: “Either way the Gov will get my $.”
There, fixed that for ya.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:36 am)Yep..
Using the words “paradigm shift” tends to glaze the eyes over too!
Marketing is going to need to step up and explain the difference to the public in an easy to understand way.
(I think the coffee shop ad might be a good way to start.)
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:39 am)Yeah… and doesn’t that just annoy the hell outta ya? Oh, wait… hi Statik.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:43 am)The current block is 5.6/5.7 cents per kWh (put it gets double by the time you get to the bottom line with fees), so probably a ‘all-in’ number for most around 11 cents.
We do have a lot of nuclear capacity, (5 plants atm), and a ton of hydro plants…we should be ‘fossil fuel’ free shortly (under 5 years), which is good, because our track record (as you mentioned…not so good with coal, lol). We also have 4 new nuclear plants going through the very laborious approval process, that will come online later this next decade.
Where Ontario specifically is ‘the bomb’ for renewables, and for the Volt is in solar.
There are some tax rebates to be had, but the payback is in production, the Ontario gov’t pays 42 cents for each kWh we produce as individuals (shipped back to the grid). Basically, if you have a efficient setup, and do the legwork yourself, you can get payback on a system in 8-10 years. ($5/watt-ish)
Ontario Standard Offer Program:
http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/Page.asp?PageID=122&ContentID=4045
Basically, you’d need about a 2 kW system to juice a Volt on average over a year (solar is very seasonal). If you are handy and can do most of it yourself, and hunt down the ‘deals’ you could get it up for about $10K (ebay is handy here for small systems/inverters).
Your payback from the Ontario gov’t would be around $1,250 year, so after 8 years it is paid for, and you basically drive for free from then on, at least for 40 miles a day.
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+4
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:47 am)My mind was made up a long time ago, unlike yours which is probably about 5 or 6 years old judging by your inane comments.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (9:52 am)HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
OK, who are you, and what have you done with the real statik’s body????
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:55 am)I just twigged to something, based on what you said…
** They were used to being able to access the best subsidies, in the closed Japanese market–one of the largest in the world
Basically this is a wealth transfer from the Japanese tax-paying citizen to Corporate Japan. While it certainly feeds corporate Japan, it may be starving the rest of the Japanese economy. It’s widely acknowledged that Japan has been in a deflationary spiral since the begining of the 1990’s and it still hasn’t recovered.
Could it be that the Japanese government’s wealth transfer from the general populace to Corporate Japan is a factor in the Japanese economy’s continued deflation?
And if that’s true, what does it say about the US Govt having control of private US corporations? We’re in a slightly deflationary period because of the bursting of the petroleum bubble… could US intervention in US Auto (US HealthCare, US Energy, etc, etc, etc) push us into a REAL deflationary spiral?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:57 am)Toyota might gripe a bit because they are ready to take the market by storm and has NO competition. They will just put their heads down and increase the battery size on their coming Prius Plug-in. Heck, that’s a chance to give the customer a free 16 kWh lithium-ion battery back. Bonus! They will be ready. Count on it.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (9:59 am)Should the US gummint owned car company be giving $7500 rebates(transfers from taxpayers to other taxpayers) to consumers to buy their cars when they are running huge deficits? Seems a bit incongruous.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (10:00 am)So direct quotes from managing director of Toyota Canada Inc. are now “spin”?
Or is it your opinion that anything that is said that is not in a favorable light towards Toyota, is spin?
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (10:00 am)So really in the end the “environment” wins because Toyota is forced to make the Prius MORE electric than before!
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (10:01 am)Geez… what is it with you liberals… always moaning
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (10:08 am)Don’t forget about Youngstown, Ohio!!!!
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+7
Jul 17th, 2009 (10:10 am)These are the same tactics that China is using.
It’s dirty and dishonest.
As much as I like my current Subaru, I can’t bring myself to buy another car from Japan.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (10:14 am)You have a good point EVO.
HSD and 2 Mode and the like will likely be fully mainstream before Voltec.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:19 am)Same thing at the Calgary show, I was fairly disappointed.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:20 am)Well, unless kdawg is on welfare! LOL.
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-5
Jul 17th, 2009 (10:20 am)-1
Jul 17th, 2009 (10:24 am)So the Canadian government is 12% owner of the new GM and they’re offering $10,000 off government rebate? That sounds like a conflict of interest honestly.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:24 am)You are correct about Japan. They are calling it “The Lost Decade.
Each time The US gets close to the precipice of a deflationary spiral the fed hands out free money and just like a canine sensing a free “ride”, the politicians jump on the legislative side of the bandwagon and turn it into a situation ripe for a massive bubble. A bubble that will inevitably end in another painful crash.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:26 am)I need Statik (or another financial/tax wizard here) to clear something up: there’s a HUGE difference in the Canadian subsidy & the US tax deduction, right? This a LOT MORE than semantics, right!?!?!?
If the Canadian deal is truly a “subsidy” or “rebate”, doesn’t that mean that the buyer gets the full amount ($10,000 or whatever) back from the Canadian government no matter what his/her federal taxes are for the year?
If so, I’d like to engage Statik (or any other willing Canadian) to act as my agent to purchase a Volt for me there, because my tax experts here always succeed in applying my ample writeoffs, deductions, etc so I never owe any income tax …..which means the $7,500 US tax deduction is absolutely worthless to me! So (neglecting exchange rates & the $250 I’d pay my Canadian agent), my Volt purchased in Canada would cost me $10,000 less than in the US, right!?!?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:33 am)The Province is offering the incentive (think State).
It’s open to ANY plug in electric.
I DO agree presenting it at a Chevy dealer was a bit of poor judgement.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:34 am)I don’t have the answer, but of course GM wants to show its gratitude to the Canadian government for its support, and since the Volt will be made in Detroit, its only a short distance (across the river) to Ontario.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:37 am)Actually, most of the Japanese wealth transfer is borrowed money. Their debt to GDP level is the largest in the world. In fact, Moody’s just downgraded their debt (although unlike ours, most of their debt is domestically owned.)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=adz9rcVTSxUA
But, yes, this does have an inhibiting effect on consumption in Japan. They have the opposite problem we do–we have too much domestic consumption, and not enough domestic investment. They spend too much on investment, and not enough on consumption. This leads to a Japanese trade surplus, and a massive world trade imbalances. (It’s also a natural result of their demographics, but that’s another post.)
However, personally, I’d rather be in the Japanese situation. At the end of the day, they have a functional productive industry, a low unemployment rate, and an even lower poverty rate.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:42 am)statik reports on $2,500 price increase…
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Actually it’s for the addition of special option package C that comes with every car sold in Canada and includes a flag decal and travel brochure in the glove box
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:44 am)StevePa said In my view what matters is whether Canadian citizens think the 10K subsidy is a good way to spend their tax dollars.
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I agree. The views of those working for GM are important, and so are those of Canadians working for Toyota or choosing to buy Toyotas.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:48 am)We’re not entirely convinced that the technology is a winning proposition for consumers today,” said Beatty.
But it appears to be so and we don’t want to look stupid for refusing to build a ‘real’ plug in since the Plug In Prius really doesn’t ammount to much of anything.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:48 am)They’re not angry about the auto bailout. They’re upset because their own technology may become obsolete. More than that, the Canadian government just announced that they consider the Prius yesterday’s technology. That’s not good for Toyota’s marketing. And now they have to invest more money than they planned in R&D.
In fact, given the Japanese government’s numerous subsidies to their own companies/markets, I would consider this the Canadian and US government’s leveling the playing field.
Not only that, but EV production does benefit everyone. Society more than the individual purchaser. So, the government should provide a subsidy. It’s a market correction. Paying for positive externalities. The government should also tax gasoline so that it reflects its real cost to society, but that’s a different issue. (And I believe Canada does have higher gasoline taxes than the US.)
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:48 am)The whole Crony Capitalism thing is a bit over my head, but I think most of us in Canada have accepted the fact that we are Socialist/Facist and always will be. Also, I doubt there has ever been a government in the world that meets your criteria for Free Market Capitalism, so I don’t think it has ever been replaced with this Crony Capitalism thing.
Anyways, it was pretty well publicized that Toyota supported the “bailout” measures and did not want GM or the Big Three to fail.
For example: “We support measures to help the industry,” said Toyota Motor (TM) spokeswoman Mira Sleilati. “We just want a strong, competitive healthy industry.” (http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/news/companies/overseas_automakers/index.htm)
There are a lot of reasons as to why the Ontario government is offering these subsidies. One that has not been mentioned (as far as I can see) is that they have a large auto manufacturing industry, which has suffered recently. Perhaps they are hoping to be on the leading edge of the electrification of the fleet and may wish to start producing some of these vehicles in some of their idle plants.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:50 am)That’s not a solution. The ICE is still connected to the drive train so it’s only a plug in for 10 miles at under 35mph! That’s about enough to take little Johnny around the block on back roads to his friends house. At least the Volt will go 40 miles at realworld speed under pure electric.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:51 am)Please remember that the HSD design includes a substantial battery. That battery can be charged through a plug with only minor modifications to the overall design. The basic HSD design is electric at low speed, ICE at high speed. It is a good design and readily adaptable to plug-in.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:52 am)Until you find out that the Canadian government considers the 10K income and that pushes you into the next tax bracket. So you pay more because you’re now in a higher tax bracket and because you just made 10K more in 2010!
Of course I have no idea if this is true, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:55 am)W-w-w-w-wait a moment. Are you aware that we canadians get screwed every time we buy a new car?
Not so long ago, when the US and CAD dollars were around parity, you could buy a brand new Honda accord in the US for about 19.000US. In Canada, that was 25.000 $CAD.
So fast forward to fall 2010, the Volt will be 40.000$US. In Canada, it will be more like 50.000$CAD if 1$US = 1$CAD. Otherwise, it could be more. So your 10k tax rebate evaporates…
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Jul 17th, 2009 (10:56 am)No joke. I bet if you took all of the government subsidies that Toyota has received from Japan over the last 6 decades, it would pale in comparison to what the US has done for GM and Chrysler in the last 6 months. This guy really has a big mouth.
It seems silly to charge sales tax on a car that is receiving government subsidies, no?
For those of us who live in liberal states. I am expecting state tax incentives on top of the $7,500 federal tax incentive. I might be able to afford a Volt after all.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:00 am)Where’s Lance? He’ll tell you that Toyota never received a dime from Japan’s government for development of the Prius. After all, he knows, he works for them and for Toyota too!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:01 am)Pretty much anyone who can afford a Gen 1 Volt would not be affected like that.
We are already in the top rate group.
(Not counting the REALLY rich people bracket, but most people who have that much money have accountants that keep them in the lower bracket anyway.)
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:02 am)Absolutely true!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:04 am)I bet you are way wrong on that.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:05 am)The HSD planetary gearing is designed to have the ICE and the battery pack work together, not separately, so it doesn’t easily lend itself to being converted into a drive train for an EV. To the extent you change the gearing to allow the planetary gears to drive the vehicle at increasingly higher speeds, you cut down the ICE’s ability to drive the car at lower speeds. Plus using small gears spinning at higher and higher speeds isn’t a great recipe for an efficient drive train.
Seems like there would just be way too much stress on the pack. Not only would the battery and the controls have to be upgraded to power the vehicle without the ICE — with high drive train losses — you’d need to reserve a significant part of the pack to aid the ICE over a fairly large range of situations. Hard to see how you could do this in a cost effective way, and it’s not clear how well a $45K or $50K Prius with relatively poor performance could compete.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:20 am)Don’t forget the mini Mountie hat plastic Rocky Mountain bear figurine and bottle of Maple syrup!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:22 am)In that case, I must amend to:
“Either way the Gov will get everybody else’s $ back.”
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:26 am)Every nation importing oil, thus a harder need for offering a subsidy is going to get it’s money’s worth in the long-term.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:29 am)Dudly said:
“The whole Crony Capitalism thing is a bit over my head…”
Time to read a book or two.
The Founding Father of Crony Capitalism
Mises Daily by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
http://mises.org/story/3164
Hamiltons Curse
http://www.amazon.com/Hamiltons-Curse-Jeffersons-Revolution-Americans/dp/0307382842
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:33 am)Great for Canada, but at $30k after the $10k rebate, the car is still not affordable for the vast majority of people.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:34 am)All corporations cry foul at government invention–when they aren’t the beneficiary of said intervention.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:37 am)Silvio said:
W-w-w-w-wait a moment. Are you aware that we canadians get screwed every time we buy a new car?
Not so long ago, when the US and CAD dollars were around parity, you could buy a brand new Honda accord in the US for about 19.000US. In Canada, that was 25.000 $CAD.
So fast forward to fall 2010, the Volt will be 40.000$US. In Canada, it will be more like 50.000$CAD if 1$US = 1$CAD. Otherwise, it could be more. So your 10k tax rebate evaporates…
==================
Actually, we didn’t get screwed.
We didn’t notice the full advantage of our increasing dollar as it improved…that is for sure. It takes awhile for that sort of thing to filter through, but we didn’t get ’screwed’.
To a Canadian, a Accord was worth $25,000 in 2008, and still $25,000 in 2009, no difference…our lifestyle/paychecks stayed the same, as did the cost of things we buy. BUT what we CAN do now, is go to the states and buy it for $19,000 and bring it back across the border, thereby getting tremendous deal (after paying a few hundred bucks duty and the applicable taxes at the border).
For me, I travel to the states several times a year, generally once to Orlando, once to LV or California, and I catch a ton of ballgames in Detroit. My dollar goes wicked far now. A 3 day pass at Disney a few years ago cost me $325 (200ish x 1.6), this year? $220. That is money in my pocket. I don’t earn less when the value of my dollar goes up…but it does go a lot farther now.
I do know what you are saying about the annoyance of seeing Canadian pricing still being proportional higher than US pricing in a lot of cases (…although not at Hyundai. $9,995 Accent with 60 month 0% financing anyone? Toyota also cut their pricing in a ‘Canadian Dollar Strength PR blitz’, still not all the way down) Most automakers seems to be bring prices inline slowly, sucking up some extra margin along the way, and/or just bringing the new products to market at a more logical/similar price.
It will even itself out eventually when the USD stabilizes (…in 2015, lol)
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:39 am)I hear you Jim I. I’ve been toying with the idea of taking advantage of the Cash-for-Clunkers program and swapping the wife’s (used) Nissan Xterra for the new Chevy Equinox 4- banger (great mileage, better storage than Ford Escape) but a few things are holding me back. (1) Hope for a Voltec Version or a hybrid Ford Explorer. (2) The fact that as far as I can tell buying an Equinox would generate far fewer U.S. jobs than buying a Ford. You got a Chinese engine mated with a Japanese transmission being assembled in Canada. I can’t in good conscience use tax dollars to subsidize my purchase of a new vehicle that has no apparent connection to U.S. manufacturing jobs. Couldn’t GM have done some major part of the work in Youngstown?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:40 am)It’s the being vague and implying.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:41 am)I wonder if it would be a good marketing plan to not call the E part of E-REV a gas engine but rather simply call it an on board electrical generator that will supply the needed electricity after YOUR Volt has gone around 40 miles sinse its last charging from an outlet.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:41 am)That would be competition at its finest!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:46 am)Thats about the only thing that could explain such poorly thought out opinions. Or, in my opinion, he is just trolling for responses. If I am correct he needs to change bait as this one is getting a bit rank.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:46 am), Test
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:47 am)@statik…
“The world is more than ready to assimilate a few thousand cars burning 8 kWh a day…that is akin to asking me to ‘get ready’ to lift my index finger”
OMG….
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Dude U made me laugh so friggin hard I almost pissed my draws….
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:47 am)But you can move the car with the gasoline engine off. I typically drive the Prius on electric mode when I’m inside a parking garage. (Apparently it’s easier for the HSD to climb a hill at a steady 8mph than it is to accelerate to 20mph on the electric drive on flat ground. This shouldn’t be surprising.)
I expect that some deep but incremental changes to the HSD (quintupling the size of the electric motor, electrical components, batteries, and the electrically-driven shaft on the transmission) could make a pretty good plugin hybrid. It sounds like work, but I’d be willing to bet that it’s well within the capabilities of the team that designed the Prius.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:50 am)Reminds me of something the first small business owner I worked for once said. “My competition runs ads, I get more business.”
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Jul 17th, 2009 (11:52 am)“always moaning”
and groaninin and moanin and groanin….
Porn *’s
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:02 pm)It shouldda been done @ a H( . y . )TERS.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:03 pm)whatteva!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:04 pm)Toyota has no right to talk about favoritism. They made a business decision not to pursue plug-ins. They could change that very quickly.
The Canadian government realizes that future dependency on oil is a bad thing, so they made a decision to do something about it. If Toyota built a car that got 40 miles of all-electric range, they would get the maximum rebate as well.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:08 pm)You say the Volt in Canada will cost $2500 more than the comparable version in the U.S.?
That’s not news. Quite often, the difference is bigger than that.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:20 pm)There is no doubt a bit of spin in that but marketing IS all about spin now isn’t it?
I think the round town average gas mileage is the main thing to point out. (It’s the thing that got ME hooked.)
If I wasn’t the first one to call it a genset instead of an ICE I was definately ONE of the first. I’m with you my friend!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:20 pm)I think Toyota will have the Plug-In Prius out in both Canada and the US in full force before the Volt, but the rebates sliding scale mutes the savings.
Toyota’s concern is that their Plug-In just qualifies for the rebate, so between the US and Canada they are looking at their Prius only qualifying for around $3,000 dollars…whereas the legislation is clearly written to maximize at GM’s 16 kWh pack.
$3,000-$4,000 off of $30,000 (?) is pretty good, don’t get me wrong…but 10% off isn’t going to cause a stampede. A guy/gal that was going to buy a new plug-in Prius anyway will say, ‘cool, thanks’…but I doubt someone out there is going to be ‘converted’ to buy one by it.
Not saying it is right or wrong…I’m just saying.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:23 pm)Right! They have plug-in things there too…
And terrible yet addictive wings…
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:24 pm)It may only be a few miles from Detroit to Ontario, but Ontario buyers are still going to be paying double the freight costs that a buyer down in Texas will pay.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:32 pm)I heard July 2011 as the target date once…however, it was so long ago, I haven’t got the foggest idea where I pulled that from. So put that in the WAG file.
Your right that the 10K Ontario rebate, coupled with the fact the government is preaching right out of GM’s pulpit, and we will be making 30% of all of GM’s cars here in 2011 might ensure we get in at the start.
And if you believe Britta Gross (sp?) over at GM, who has too friggin’ long of a title to repeat or remember, she says that “green and capable” electric infrastructures get priority on rollout. We have so much power we export it out of Ontario, we have extra plugs all over the place for engine block heaters, and we have monsterous overnight capacity thanks to the concurrent nature of electricity produciton from nuclear.
/I’ll not holding my breath though…I’m still going to lightly pencil in late 2011, early 2012 for the Volt here
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:41 pm)Do you realize the extent that the Japanese government protects and provides subsidies for it’s industries?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:46 pm)I think it works the way intended, if Toyota can come up with a strong plug in then they can qualify for the full benefit.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:48 pm)Toyota Prius ads have been nuts lately. I can’t watch 10 minutes of television w/out seeing a commercial for the Prius. And they are almost like infomercials.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:50 pm)Can you sell the Xterra for more than $3500? If so you are better selling it or trading it in, versus the Cash for Clunkers.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:51 pm)Aw man, the hot ones burn on the way in AND OUT!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:52 pm)‘Fiat Currency’…. is that what was used to buy Chrysler?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:56 pm)You need to read up on the Hymotion conversion, and even more pertinent, read up on Toyota’s experimental plug-in fleet.. all that you are worried about can be solved by simple changes.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (12:57 pm)If your talking 30K Canadian after rebates, most of us can afford that (who can afford a new car at all that isn’t Korean)…a G6 starts at like $25,000 here, lol.
It is truly hard to peg a Volt MSRP in Canada at this point. The USD is just crazy unstable right now, however the trend is constantly up for us since the US canned paygo, started laying on the debt early in this decade…and gas prices picked up (with the exception the little economic crisis that freaked the world last fall and all the money flowed back into USD…irony included).
If the economy in the US stabilizes we probably hover around par. If I had to guess, the Volt comes out here around $45,000 Cdn. +/- $5,000
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:01 pm)Heeh…24 hours in and I’m still not banned.
/one can only assume they don’t work weekends (other than Natalie)
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:02 pm)WHAT?!
Why would the Canadian Volt cost more than the US version?
Cold weather?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:03 pm)I’m waiting for the “User does not exist” message….
lol
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:08 pm)That 35mph limit is imposed by the amount of power the electric motor can deliver — it has nothing to with the form of the energy as it’s being transferred around the vehicle.
You can drive a stock 2nd gen Prius at 70+mph on just the electric motor. Downhill. One place where this behavior happens is on I-70 when you’re heading from Western Maryland in to Baltimore with the cruise set to around 73mph.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:15 pm)Amazing.. I bet Toyota headquarters is really pissed about this. I eagerly wait for Hymotion to release the kit for the 2010 Prius, and perhaps even update to the new A123 automotive cells.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:18 pm)…and that would make sense if this was the weekend, lol
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:25 pm)Hey, if you like that one, you should check out the one to Britta Gross, who, unfortunatley has the job/title of “Manager, Energy and Environment-Infrastructure Commercialization ” …which used to be “GM’s manager of Hydrogen and Electrical Infrastructure Development and Strategic Commercialization”" I wonder where the Hydrogen went? lol…guess that ‘infrastructure didn’t go so well on that one, lol.
Here it is:
—————————
Hi Britta, I confess to still not really understanding what you do, however I wonder if you could clear something up for me.
You said that, “In order for the Chevy Volt to become mainstream, a plug-in infrastructure must be in place…a green/capable grid and plug-in ready communities”
How do you reconcile that goal, with the fact you (GM) are rolling out the Volt initially into the two places most in contradiction with that statement…specifically California and New York.
California has a massive energy problem, the governor says shortfalls by 2011, and any extra capacity needed is imported from some very ‘dirty’ plants at a huge cost premiums. Likewise for New York, their increased demand, coupled with ‘renewable initiatives’ led them to put out a statement in mid 2008 that they would be in serious trouble by 2012, and would also have shortages. The cost of adding/importing power to these grids is enormous, and the pricing there is already sky high.
Yet, places that do have excess capacity, and are ‘uber-green’ are not included in the initial rollout, in contradiction to your statement. It would seem to be that the rollout is strictly based on what market is most condusive to GM itself and the cities that give GM the most PR cred brownie points (like SF, that has had a LONG history of terrible electric service and was one of the largest polluters up until a couple years ago…they are doing it because they still have a image problem).
If that were not so, wouldn’t the Volt come out in places like Arizona…or in my home province of Ontario, where we have oodles of unused overnight capacity from nuclear production that just evaporates?
The conundrum for you is that the places that are ‘green’ and have excess ‘infrastructure’ are not also the places where millions of people live on top of each other and provide the biggest market.
It would seem to me that you are looking for places that will put on good a show with you at their side, and erect ‘charging stations’ in front of their city halls for good PR, and/or to give tax incentives to GM, or to conjure up some fleet sales.
I have a plug in my garage, and I know how to use it. My region has power to whazoo, and it is cheap…under 5 cents USD (pre-fees). The only thing I really need is for you to sell me a car.
/any thoughts?
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…and yes, I am a jackass, I’m sure she is a very nice lady
Sidenote: I enjoyed your profile:
http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php?option=com_community&view=profile&userid=357
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:37 pm)Without taking the time to read the other comments posted so far, I have just one thing to say to Toyota: “If you don’t like it stop selling vehicles in the North American market”. That would suit me just fine since I have never owned a Toyota (although I have passed up the opportunity a number of times after test drives and sales pitches). Now, I will try to read what you guys have been saying. I am sure it is very choice comments.
Oh, and before I forget it, thanks to the Canadian government for the helping hand. I am sure our northern brethren will be pleased when they go to get their hybrids or Volts.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:38 pm)Cobays is sold to Bosch /Samsung
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/17/bosch-samsung-battery-venture-buys-cobasys/
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:41 pm)So soly Toyota! (Sorry about the bad pun as well folks) GREAT hope the province of Quebec does the same. They should, after all our electricity is almost uniquely produced by hydro which is emmision free and appart from relocating a few fish and beavers not harmful to the environment (OK OK you greenies…and after the “river-native” mercury settles back down in the bed of the river after being stired up by construction work). This would make buying a Volt more affordable and therefore, much more likey. AND ALL THE MONEY STAYS HERE. ARE YOU LISTENING MY DEAR GOVERNMENT!!!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:46 pm)Statik,
My personal opinion as to why Toyota is being real quite is that they are working their butts off trying to get a plug-in into production and out to the dealers in the U.S. and Canada before GM launches the Volt. They want to crash GM’s goal of producing the world’s first mass-produced electric plug-in vehicle. Sure, the vehicles will not be even comparable, but the press and the public won’t notice the difference. Plus, if they do a good job on it and get some decent miles in EV mode, they could knock a lot of Volt sales by the wayside and convert them to Prius sales.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:48 pm)He doesn’t have the “green tag” yet so its not legal to do that.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:50 pm)Sounds about right.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:51 pm)I have no pity for Toyota. They have done business in North America for decades and were given a fair and level playing field. Until Japan stops favoring their local companies with such harsh import tariffs, I can only love when this happens.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (1:55 pm)That is why, DonC, a few of us here never thought the current Prius was a long term threat to the Volt. The biggest threat to the Volt currently is GM and the government along with the UAW. You might have GM acting as in the past, the government wanting to go one way while GM wants to go another and along with that you could have a UAW that wants what it wants and would be willing to stop everything until it gets its way. That has been their game in the past and GM has bowed down to them each time.
I liked your explanation very much. Wish I was as knowledgeable on these mechanical matters.
Edited: Plus, if Toyota charges the $40,000+ they were talking about for a plug-in Prius, it puts it in the same price range as the Volt. The Volt “should” win every time based on that alone.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:02 pm)Nasaman,
If this program works as the hybrid program did, it is indeed a ‘rebate program’ It is not tied to income tax and/or is not a taxable income. Under the last initiative, all you had to do was:
Provide a photocopy of your sales or long-term lease (for 12 months or more) agreement, along with the VIN,, and provide proof of provincial vehicle registration…then you got a check in the mail.
I will gladly purchase ‘extra’ Volts for a small fee…however, your US $7,500 is NOT a tax deduction, and you do not have to have paid $7,500 in taxes to get that money, it is a tax credit, that is refundable…the same way as your ‘child tax credit’ is.
I’m a little hazy on how that works with AMT, but I think there was a provision and/or clarification put out on it at some point…and you still get the $7,500. (but I’m not sure)
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:08 pm)The travel brochure is for U.S. destinations at that!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:14 pm)2015 might be a big stretch, Statik.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:15 pm)Being a Canadian, I’d love to get $10,000 off a Volt, but I can’t help but to wonder how necessary a $10,000 “rebate” from the government is necessary for people to buy plug-in vehicles.
I think that GM will easily sell all their Volts in their first year of production (estimated at 10,000… which means about 1,000 for Canada)… even without the $7,500 USD or $10,000 CAD incentive. The green movement is building. I remember reading in a forum once where somebody wanted the new Prius with the solar panels–even if it cost $3,000 extra… he just had to have it! If some people are willing to pay $3,000 just for a stupid fan to run when they aren’t in the vehicle, that tells you something about how much money they have to spend on a new vehicle. So you run the air conditioner for 30 more seconds to cool off the car… big deal… well, I guess for some people it is.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:16 pm)-1
Jul 17th, 2009 (2:18 pm)Lately living in a “liberal” state, as you call it, only means that the state is in financial trouble after all the give-away programs and the businesses leaving the state for better climates. Good luck.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (2:23 pm)Speaking of marketing in Japan: How many Volts do you think GM will be allowed to bring into Japan over a 10 year period beginning in 2011? Not many, I would suspect.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:24 pm)God only knows (and maybe transport Canada)
All cars cost quite a bit more in Canada than in the US.
I assume it’s taxes but really do not know for certain.
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+3
Jul 17th, 2009 (2:28 pm)What Toyota is really saying is that no government should give out any subsidies until Toyota has vehicles ready to receive the subsidy. If that were to be the case here Toyota would be all smiles and hugs. Since that is not the case, they belly ache. Sorry, Toyota it was your decision not to be ready with a plug-in by now. Plus, you still have time to get one on the firing line. You just don’t get to call the shots and that is upsetting to your people. Oh my, so terrible. So sorry!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:30 pm)Old Man,
Look at the negative responses. I say he has gotten the kind of response he should be getting.
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+14
Jul 17th, 2009 (2:32 pm)“We support government ownership and subsidies if its in our own country (because we’ve been doing it for years), but if other countries start catching on and implement some of that, we are shocked, surprised, and really angry.”
-Toyota
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:33 pm)Yup, that sounds about right.
About the same price as an M-B C300 AWD.
I want my Volt but they are in tough.
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-2
Jul 17th, 2009 (2:33 pm)So direct quotes from managing director of Toyota Canada Inc. are now “spin”?
_________________________
If the questions asked go unanswered, yes.
It’s the difference between the idea promoted and the realities of business that cause the problem.
Consider the quantity & duration of sales. How much of an impact does that actually have on the 2020 goal?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:36 pm)A tough but fair (if a bit sarcastic) questioning!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:38 pm)Unfortunately, the rebate is only for Ontario – Not Alberta, Manitoba or anyone els!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:48 pm)I disagree with Dan
Freight would be understood as delivery charges. More detailed explanations regarding what “freight” means would be helpful from poster “Dan”.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (2:55 pm)You know what’s funny is they keep selling that fukin stupid “Plig-in-ready” sh|t. WTF is up with that. Check the batter discussion.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (2:56 pm)To Toyota…..
PUTTA PLUG IN IT!!!!
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (2:59 pm)Didn’t Toyota say the price of the plug-in Prius would be $40,000+? Not $30,000.
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Jul 17th, 2009 (3:00 pm)Yep, but here’s hoping…
Of course in Alberta we are mostly coal power…
(it IS really low sulfur coal though)
Somebody ’said’ the word nuclear here and there were 10 instant protest groups… sigh…
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (3:04 pm)Cash for Clunkers should have been written to exclude any vehicle not manufactured by GM, Ford or Chrysler. Let the others eat cake.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (3:07 pm)Toyota and Honda was concerned about the stability of the auto suppliers, period. They could care a rat’s a$$ about GM, Ford or Chrysler. Many of those same suppliers supply Toyota and Honda many, many parts.
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+2
Jul 17th, 2009 (3:07 pm)I say screw Toyota – Toyota imports most of its stuff from off shore and only assembles it here. They did not start out here and build the bussiness as Did GM, Ford and Chrysler. They have no right to bitch and complain- I say go back to Japan if you do not like it!!
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Jul 17th, 2009 (3:09 pm)You can add an “s” to the word decade. This one is about lost also.
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+1
Jul 17th, 2009 (3:16 pm)He’s talking about the ’standard’ delivery charges when you buy a car.
And he’s absolutely right!
Living out west I have less to complain about on that point though.
For a base Malibu with no options added.
Off the US Chevy site, delivery $720 (to Zip 90210) That made me laugh!
Off the Canadian chevy site, delivery $1375 (To Calgary)
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Jul 17th, 2009 (3:17 pm)What else is new?
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Jul 17th, 2009 (3:18 pm)To Toyota…..
PUTTA PLUG IN IT!!!!