AND 
GM Not Engineering an Electric Truck…Yet
I had the chance to ask Andrew Farah who is the Chevy Volt’s chief engineer, and former engineer on the EV-1 program about whether GM may spread the Voltec range-extended electric powetrain into other vehicles like trucks.
Are you configuring new battery pack designs for use in other vehicles such as people movers?
We call this portfolio planning. We look at our whole list of vehicles and try to figure out what should be next for the Voltec powertrain. We announced the Ampera which is a re-styling of the same architecture. The Converj is a little different approach. It’s a global compact delta, with a different interior and probably a little different battery pack structure, although it’ll have most of the same guts.
What about building trucks on the Voltec platform?
Yeah, but there is an issue generally speaking. You have to remember part of what enables this to work is an extremely efficient vehicle in a sense of its road load. What that means is lower, lighter, more aerodynamic and smaller.
So you wont get 40 miles of range in a truck, but can you supplement a truck with the battery?
You can, but if you’re not hitting the sweet spot of 78% of the driving American public, how many will you sell? Everyone of these things in the portfolio has to be viable.
So you don’t see it going to pickup trucks?
Me personally, I don’t, but I don’t get to set the portfolio. Now if they call me tomorrow and say Andrew you’re the chief engineer of the new Voltec pickup truck, guess what? By golly, I’m making one.
What if the cells get cheap enough?
To give you an example let me go back to my old days with the EV-1. We had the EV1 it was beautifully efficient small, and we also did a pickup truck. As a matter of fact there are still a few in captivity in the public’s hands. This was an interesting case, they’re out there and they’re still running around driving, but they didn’t go very far on a charge. They didn’t because they’re heavy and non-aerodynamic. They went about 40 miles total range. They were set up for light duty fleet usage in an extremely limited area. You could say isn’t there a market for these things?, but that market is very sensitive to cost.
If cells were ¼ of their current price couldn’t you theoretically use a larger battery pack?
I could throw in more modules, but right now my focus is the Volt. From a Volt prospective there are no major plans for changing the battery pack in size or energy in the next generations.
Though he says, "future product plans beyond what we’ve talked about publicly I cannot comment on," Bob Kruse who is Andrew Farah’s boss, and GM Director of Hybrids and EVs also admits, "In this business you can never say never."
178 Responses to “GM Not Engineering an Electric Truck…Yet”
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:13 am
Unfortunately going electric is a mindset and although I shouldn’t judge (I will though) the percentage of pickup truck drivers who may want to go electric, is far less than those who do not drive them. Therefore would GM sell that many? I don’t think they would sell as well. For the mass public anyway.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:15 am
Voltec trucks may be even a bigger market than the Volt.
1. Very easy to implement 4wd, basically just add a second motor and inverter.
2. You can provide AC power to the trades, this would be a huge market.
3. Massive, stump pulling torque without breaking expensive gears.. replaces expensive auto transmissions.
It is a very conservative market so marketing would have to be creative. GM seems to be fixated on the 78% rule.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:15 am
I have seen some of these older trucks for sale on ebay. I haven’t heard much good about them, but the point is they were trying something new. I wish it would have worked.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:18 am
It looks like trucks will stay with gas and diesel for quite some time. I see systems like 2 mode hybrid installed in trucks to improve their fuel economy but no plug in trucks. It takes gobs of power to pull a 10,000 horse trailer, camper, boat, skid loader, etc.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:19 am
I am anxiously awaiting my Volt, but I would also love to have the option of a truck on the electric platform. I believe there is a market that exists. The more electric variety, the better!
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:20 am
I’m looking forward to the Voltec truck.
Relatively few AER miles will be OK.
Technically it will mean I get my whole battery’s worth every day.
When GM tries it, they will like it.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:24 am
I’m much more optimistic about interest from people driving trucks. They are more into technology and its advantages, and are in general nicer and better looking people
Seriously, I think there will be a greater interest from the truck-driving community, because they are aware of their vehicles and like to make use of their capabilities. For trucks, EREV is perfect, as BEV will not be enough.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:32 am
I agree. It is all about the EREV.
Personally, I would love a light EREV 4×4 pickup truck.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:43 am
I think your very right RB.
EREV makes a lot more sense in larger applications ie) trucks, vans, suvs etc. at least in a long term sense. You just can’t have a BEV being a 1/2 ton pickup and doing a full days work, but a EREV lets you own a truck and still get most of your ‘normal driving’ done in EV mode.
BEV architecture could displace EREV in autos relatively shortly if battery tech improves, or prices comes down 50 points…but is very, very unlikely to penetrate the large/full platform market, the amount of energy you’d need to have on hand to do the ‘expected’ job in a full-size truck would be massive. How much juice is needed to haul a full load and/or trailer for 100 miles? 150 kWh? More? If there is a usable BEV truck, you probably have 1,000 mile range cars…and that is ages away.
20-30 miles of daily driving displaced by electric drive in a truck is equal to over a 100 in a small car (ala Volt). It is superior both environmentally and economically. The cost of a pack is easier to ‘hide’ inside a truck’s pricepoint too.
I think people can do math on 20-30 miles displacing 12 MPG, easier than 40 miles displacing 50 MPG. 2-3 gallons saved a say actually gives you a reasonable payback time inside the expected time of ownership.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:58 am
That last paragraph should read,
“I think people can do math on 20-30 miles displacing 12 MPG, easier than 40 miles displacing 50 MPG. 2-3 gallons saved a DAY actually gives you a reasonable payback time inside the expected time of ownership.”
Full-size truck:
12,000 miles = 1,000g/year displaced @ $2.50 = $10,000 in 4 years.
Compact car:
12,000 miles = 240g/year displaced @ $2.50 = $10,000 in 16+ years
Sidenote: It has to be easier/cheaper to integrate a 16kWh pack in a truck.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:59 am
Lots of power to pull these things fast, but what it takes the most is torque to get them going in the first place. Voltec can act like a perfect CVT transmission, it will always have the right “gear” for the job.. and it will be a very rugged CVT. Sounds like a perfect match.
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:01 am
I’d rather go with the an E-REV minivan. You can hold 7 people and tons of crap or fold the seats down and essentially have a truck. there shouldn’t be any issues putting a minivan body on a delta II platform. You’d need more cells to hit the 40 miles AER do to aerodynamics, but wouldn’t have to add the weight that is inherent in a work truck. I would pay $40,000 (with a $7500 rebate) for an EREV minivan in a second!
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:09 am
A mid-size Voltec pickup would be perfect for me and many others who really can’t afford to own a car for commuting and a truck for their weekend warrior duties, i.e. towing and hauling. If Chevy makes a Colorado-sized EREV, I’m there in a heartbeat. For now, I am hoping to save enough to buy the Volt in 2011 and keeping my ‘04 Colorado (a great truck!) to do the weekend duties.
Please, GM if you’re reading this, there are plenty of people that would buy an EREV mid-size pickup. The 2-mode full-size pickups are a step in the right direction, but too big and too costly for people like me.
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Wow, they have the strategy down cold. Personally, I believe large truck and SUV’s will get fuel cells, which will reform gasoline, alcohol or other hydrocarbons. That will be the most powerful and cheapest approach for that market segment. I know, I know – some dip**** will say fuel cells cost a million apiece, but they are ignoring GM’s own breakthroughs in cost reducing fuel cells.
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:28 am
I also agree there’s real merit in an electrified pickup truck. However, I feel there’s historically significant competition (i.e., pricing pressure) in the U.S. truck market. This leads me to believe that, at least until battery costs come down fairly dramatically, that a plug-in 2-mode drive train like that developed for the Vue would be much more marketable for the next several years. Pickup owners accustomed to maybe 12 MPG, as Statik says above, could get very interested in owning a plug-in 2-mode truck that outpulls & outhauls their V-8 powered truck —but gets (say) 50 MPG!*
*Since initial estimates for the Vue plug-in based on testing on 11 mules approach 70 MPG, I believe 50 MPG could be achieved in a pickup chassis
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:33 am
There are a number of issues here.
First is the cost of the battery. The Volt’s battery pack currently costs GM $8000 to build. That cost should go down to $2000 in the next 10 years. This all comes from the CEO of CPI, who currently makes the Volt battery packs.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html
But an EREV pickup or SUV would require twice the battery to go the same 40 miles. That’s not only twice the cost, but twice the space and weight as well. Many people buy SUVs and Pickups for their ability to carry cargo, so a large battery would take away from that.
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:44 am
In a related matter:
The ‘father’ of the “we will build a viable, mass produced fuel cell vehicle by 2010 at GM” mantra (from way back in 2002) and subsequent spender of over a billion dollars on it, Larry Burns (aka Mr. Hydrogen @ GM)…was replaced/fired yesterday. (or ‘elected’ to retire if you will, lol):
“Burns, who has ELECTED to retire after 40 years of distinguished service with GM, has been a major advocate within the industry for the reinvention of the automobile and the diversification of transportation energy. At GM, he has personally championed the electrification of the vehicle, connected vehicle technology, fuel cells, and a series of innovative advanced technology concept vehicles.”
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=55692
—————-
Here is a sampling of his ‘flavor’ from 2002-2003:
“Larry Burns ought to make many people in the supply base feel unsettled. That’s because Burns and his global team are working on a transformation of the auto industry…Burns is the vp of R&D for General Motors. And the team in question is working on developing fuel cells for vehicles that are potentially–and I think probably–going to replace internal combustion enginesInternal combustion engine.
And while some people imagine that this is a Jetsons’ dream, let me point out…these folks at GM are already developing, engineering, prototype building, testing, and preparing for productionizing fuel cells.
Burns said it straight. They are working to create “affordable, profitable, high-volume fuel cell vehicles. A fuel cell vehicle is a vehicle that uses a fuel cell to power an electric drive system. He’s talking about mass production in 2010. Lest that start a train of thought about the bad sequel to 2001, realize that that’s just 7.5 years from now. Burns et. al. are working on gasoline reformation… transforming natural gas into hydrogen, and transforming water (through electricity) into hydrogen. “We want to remove the automobile from the environmental debate,” Burns says.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Creating+tomorrow.+(Marginal)-a087421692
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Make the El in El Camino stand for Electric.
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Dave, total cost to GM is about $12k, cost of the cells plus assembly into the Volt’s T-Pack… from a GM slide presentation plus the LG statements.
I would think Voltec would work very well in the heavy duty trucks, F250-F450 and so on.. but forget about long electric range battery packs.. concentrate on the EREV part.
The new lead acid battery tech would work very well also, many of these trucks need the weight in the back for traction and better balance, plus they have lots of room under the bed. Also these are working trucks, so no need to provide a 10 year warranty. These trucks already have the massive frames to carry towing loads and they do need the electric torque.
BTW, the diesels in these trucks are very heavy, over 1000lbs.. and expensive, both to buy and maintain.
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:58 am
I agree! Especially for contractors and other people who do a lot of heavy hauling.
But don’t forget the compact pickup truck segment. I’m used to getting 20-25mpg out of my Ranger, and at about half the MPG of our daily-driver, that seems pretty thirsty.
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July 16th, 2009 at 7:58 am
July 14 th at 2 PM we fired up the 4ton Water Furnace. It is connected to a Marathon 50 gallon water heater. Yesterday I took my first shower heated by the air conditioner. Life is good.
Take Care
Arch
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:05 am
I agree with you Nasaman, 100%. A plug-in 2 mode in a truck should be a no-brainer at some point. Displacing 12MPG driving just makes a lot more sense then that of 40-50 MPG. And people should be able to understand it (do the math) easily as a selling point…that especially goes for corporate/fleet customers as well.
That is one reason I really like the idea behind the Chrysler ER-EV 7 passenger van, a very similar story. The first 40 miles electric there is huge, and the set up (especially with the stow-n-go cavities) should allow for easy/seamless and fairly inexpensive (relatively speaking) integration.
Fair Disclaimor: I’m not saying Chrysler can do it right, or get it to market…I just think the direction is perfect/ambitious. Housewives/househusbands booting around town doing their chores, driving the kids to school, going to soccer games etc., basically coming and going from home 3-4 times a day, all under electric power, while displacing 17-18 MPGs.
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:07 am
“This leads me to believe that, at least until battery costs come down fairly dramatically, that a plug-in 2-mode drive train like that developed for the Vue would be much more marketable for the next several years. ”
but GM has put these 2-mode transmissions in the luxury truck market so far.. they were originally developed for the hybrid bus market so they perhaps have the heavy duty heritage already built-in but perhaps not. I would prefer pure EREV with no gears and direct motor-to-wheel couplings for heavy duty reliability. The 2-mode transmission is very complicated and expensive.
Hey Nasaman.. you should be familiar with these.. Nasa’s crawler-transporters have always been serial electrics for heavy duty stump pulling torque:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/facilities/crawler.html
“The Crawler/Transporter is powered by 16 traction motors powered by four 1,000 kw generators, driven by two 2,750hp diesel engines. Two 750 kw generators, drived by two 1,065 hp diesel engines are used for jacking, steering, lighting, and ventilating. Two 150 kw generators are also used for MLP power.
When they were built, the KSC crawlers were the largest tracked vehicles ever made. (Surpassed by the Bagger 288 German excavator). They move the Mobile Launcher Platform into the Vehicle Assembly Building and then to the Launch Pad with an assembled space vehicle. Maximum speed is 1.6km (one mile) per hour loaded, about 3.2 km (2 miles) per hour unloaded. Launch Pad to VAB trip time with the Mobile Launch Platform is about 5 hours. The crawler burns 568 liters (150 gallons) of diesel oil per mile.”
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:11 am
The $8K figure from CPI includes the cost of the T-pack assembly.
Do you have a link to the GM slide presentation that shows $12K?
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:13 am
Personally, I would like to see a 3/4 ton pickup EREV that can handle pulling a 4 horse trailor. Most of the time the trucks on my families farms are just used within a few miles of the farms. If the truck could even have a 20 mile electric range with the ICE kicking in when hauling or going into town it would be perfect.
Plus the cost of the battery can more easily be absorbed into the much larger cost of the truck.
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Which would be best, a Silverado with BAS+, a Silverado with 2 mode, or a Silverado with a 200 kW traction motor and a 12 kWh SOC window?
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:24 am
The Mitsubishi iMiev reminds me of a very small minivan.. stretch it a bit, make the rear seats removable.
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:28 am
“subsequent spender of over a billion dollars on it, Larry Burns (aka Mr. Hydrogen @ GM)”
Yeah but was that GMs or the Feds money?
Fuel cells (but not hydrogen) make sense for long range commercial vehicles.. if the cost and reliability is right of course.
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:36 am
well things need to go in the direction of 4 passenger car -> 7 passenger crossover -> pickup truck. it has to in order for the woman in the family to get their electric savings and SHOW the truck driving hard working man the direction. it won’t happen any other way.
i want to only drive pickups the rest of my life as i don’t like the way you sit in a car. it feels like i’m almost laying down. i want to sit up right. anyways, i am about to move to a car and get rid of my 12 mpg avalanche (with tears in my eyes) for cost savings reasons. but if there was ever a vue or midsized pickup plugin, i would move to that at the next vehicle buying schedule i run into (every four to five years).
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:38 am
Most of the trucks that you see (at least down South in Truck Country) are not being driven by contractors, or people who routinely carry heavy loads. Over half are “country cadillacs,” which spend 90% of their lives just hauling just the driver back and forth to work. Yes, it’s extremely handy to have a truck for that remaining 10% of the time that you have to haul a boat, bring home something from the Big Box store or make an autumn trip for firewood. Unfortunately, you have to live with poor gas mileage (vs a smaller vehicle) 100% of the time.
It seems to me that a Voltec (or 2-mode) derived drivetrain would allow a lightly-loaded truck (hauling just the driver) to get extremely good mileage, which decreases as load increases. This could be very compelling to the suburban truck owner.
I’ve considered a pickup truck; however, I have never been willing to live with the poor gas mileage I would get for most of those non-load miles.
If a higher energy storage medium, capable of much greater cycle numbers, replaced the current LG pack, the truck could run like a Voltec car in charge-sustaining mode carrying just the driver (with no plug, but getting over double the 12 – 15 mpg typical for large pickups). At larger load levels, a simplified transmission would directly engage the genset’s engine to the rear wheels.
From this point, assuming costs are low enough, ordinary lithium packs could be added as an option (perhaps long rectangular ones beneath the bed, on each side of the rear propshaft). This would give a modest AER for those willing to pay.
And no, don’t look for them anytime soon (before 2019).
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:41 am
First, I agree with Nasaman that a plug-in 2-mode could be a good near term solution for trucks.
For the next step, given current battery technology, I feel that a good option would be an E-REV like the Fisker, where the truck can be powered by battery power only, however, for added power, the ICE/generator fires up to provide added boost.
So now you have the plug-in capability (maybe only 20 AER with Volt battery pack), high efficiency cruise with ICE and low power draw, and high power capability with a larger engine/generator.
I could envision a Volt traction motor at the both the front and rear wheels, with only one in operation at most loads, but with both in operation for fast acceleration, towing heavy loads, or 4WD.
This seems to provide a no compromise package that still returns excellent fuel mileage.
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:43 am
“Voltec can act like a perfect CVT transmission, it will always have the right “gear” for the job”
Like a teeny version of a diesel electric locomotive (designed that way for the same reasons; back in the 30’s, by the General Motors Electromotive Division).
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Fuel cells which reform hydrocarbon fuels have a problem with “coking,” a carbon layer that builds up on one of the electrodes. Such a fuel cell will not be the same “perfect, run for years” solution that the hydrogen-only fuel cell would have been.
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Or you could have something like this Hummer.
http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/the-electric-h3
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Bob Lutz will probably like this BW piece about him.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009/07/why_gm_named_77.html
He’d probably like being compared to WWII general Omar Bradley. I saw the movie “Patton” on cable last year. It was pretty good. It won an Oscar.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066206/
Bradley was a very good battlefield tactician, strategist AND he was good in dealing with people. Eisenhower was right to promote Bradley ahead of Patton in WWII. Patton was erratic at times and wasn’t too good with his people skills, but he trained his troops well and got things done on the battlefield. Your top guys need to have those people skills like Bradley had in order to “win friends and influence people”. That’s what wins wars AND helps a company succeed.
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:22 am
no link handy for the T-Pack slide show, it stated that the cells were 70% of the cost of the pack.. What the LG guy was talking about was cells only.. thus total cost is about $12k
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:49 am
as tech like this exists now in a few different products, let’s buy it outright from these people or reverse engineer it or whatever it takes to make it a mass product. i mean, that suv would be a game charger with those numbers. i mean prius can have the car market, let the 100 mpg suv drive buy with a full family and smiles.
these guys want exactly that…
http://www.afstrinity.com/
just talk to them and make it happen. our budgets and your will all benefit from it…
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Herm is pretty close. I think the exact number was $11.4K but that’s a guess so his $12K number is as good as anything. You were probably on vacation when this was brought up and discussed:
http://www.narucmeetings.org/Presentations/Stanek%20PHEV_Nov08%20-%20final90.pdf
You’ll have to look through the slides to find where she says what percentage of the costs of the pack are attributable to the cells.
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Has anybody actually seen a real demonstration of the 40 mile range and 100mpg claims? What exactly do they think they can sell this car for? Their press release page seems to be about PR stunts and how people are giving them money for geothermal power generation not their E-REV, than anything else. I’m so tired of flashy presentations, lofty claims and concept vehicles. I would really like to see hard numbers on performance and price with third party verification on any of these new wonder vehicles that are announced almost every month now.
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Most of us would like to see a truck version of the Volt. If it only got 20 miles per charge before the ICE kicks in, I think that would be acceptable. But I understand GM’s hesitancy when it comes to betting hundreds of millions of dollars on something they don’t know the public will purchase. I think a version of the new 2010 Equinox with a Voltec power train would be a better bet. I would not expect it to get 40 MPC and would settle for 25 or so without major design changes. It is a great looking vehicle and with or without Voltec should be a good seller for GM.
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Last I heard that problem had been solved.. these cells are slow to react and they run hot, but neither of those is an issue with a long range heavy duty EREV.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:03 am
A Silverado with two Volt motors and a larger genset run by a V6.. plus an inverter to run your power tools or your campground or the camping trailer you are towing. Make the battery capacity modular, lots of room for batteries.
You mean usable battery capacity right?.. why do you care about the SOC window?
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Most trucks are used for work purposes so it’s an altogether different than cars. Truck purchases tend to be more about cost benefit and less about the appeal of the exoskeleton, especially since the people who drive them are usually not the people responsible for buying them. As a consequence, the purchase decision is really a matter of running the numbers. (This tendency will increase as the new CAFE standards make trucks increasingly expensive and less likely to be driven for non-work purposes).
This is good and bad. Good because the payback period needs to be shorter since the discount rate will be lower. Bad because you won’t get people willing to pay more for technology than it will return to them in saved running costs. In this environment, Voltec trucks seem like a stretch because the fact, as pointed out here many times, is that you can’t really justify Voltec on a dollars and cents basis. The numbers just don’t work unless gas prices go far higher than can reasonably be expected.
Given this, and the new CAFE standards, the most obvious path to the electrification of trucks would be along the lines which GM has already implemented for the Silverado. It just has to be more cost effective. Note that because of the new CAFE standards trucks will become more expensive and that even embedding hybrid technology in trucks is extremely sensitive to the price of gasoline.
Biofuels may be a better answer here.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:09 am
The two Volt motors, one could be optimized for highway speeds, the other one tuned for low speed efficiency.. both would be used when you pull the bass boat out of the ramp.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:12 am
There may not be an all-electric truck in the works, but one major automaker is planning an all-electric supercar…
http://blog.caranddriver.com/mercedes-to-produce-all-electric-sls-amg-supercar/
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Let’s just get the VOLT’S wheels on the road!!!!!! (first)
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Nice find and interesting. I suspect this is mostly about reducing management ranks by 1/3, but it also indicates that GM is getting more serious about fuel savings today and less concerned about using hydrogen as an excuse for present inaction on that front.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Interesting question!
I’m leaning toward the 2 mode, but AM curious about a scaled up Voltec truck system and what it could do.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:19 am
hey everyone, this is off-topic, but GM just started a new website dedicated to the Volt…
http://www.chevroletvoltage.com
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:20 am
correct me if I’m wrong but I thought the IMIEV pictures we’ve seen have all been of a mule and that the actual body is going to be completely different.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Jason, the “problem” with hydrogen is that there are many problems (technical hurdles) rather than one. The cost of the fuel cell is just one of the problems. Compare this to biofuels which have only one problem — finding a cost (energy) effective way of separating the sugars and carbohydrates from the molecules that protect them in plant material.
If that is solved you have a dollar or two dollar carbon neutral gas equivalent which comes from domestic sources in an amount which would displace all foreign oil and power any vehicle in the world on which you’re willing to spend and extra $500.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Weight isn’t a huge deal for cars because most cars are used for driving people around. Trucks have to carry things, so their payload will be much higher. As for aerodynamics, they’re simply awful.
Without running any numbers my guess would be that the EV range on a truck would be closer to 10 miles than 30 miles and the discharge rate on the cells would be frighteningly high.
Good point about the pay back periods.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Agreed on the heavy power requirements of a working truck.
But why not plug in? Even mostly hard working trucks could use battery only when unloaded.
For a truck it seems to me that an “H” or “U” shaped pack would make more sense as it would attach to the trucks ladder frame more readily.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:40 am
The Orlando van is based on the same platform as the Volt.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Some here will recall a few months ago we were discussing the “100 mpg EREV Hummer” prototype by Raser technologies. This is the vehicle that the Governator drove in a press conference. See this link for pdf files of their technology:
http://www.rasertech.com/pdfs
Raser essentially is striving to build or prove that the EREV pick-up or SUV can be done. They concede the cost issue immediately, but (as always) feel the price can/will come down with economies of scale. I’m intrigued with their idea, even moreso if they can effectively lower the cost of the system. I think the idea has a fighting chance…although not immediately. Batteries simply have to be less expensive for these to sell in volume.
For the meantime, GM needing to watch every dollar and cent they have been loaned, would be wise to pursue an Orlando EREV based on the Volt drivetrain, and then pursue the Pick-up/SUV/large crossover EREV application with say a third generation Voltec drivetrain, IMHO.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:46 am
The guy has also worked there 40 years. It’s probably time to retire.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:48 am
This would allow a lot of people to have their truck (which they WANT) and STILL commute with little or no gas. On the weekend the truck can pull the camper/boat/utility trailer without issue.
Trucks are already $40-60k so hiding VOLTEC costs might not be too bad.
I’d like a truck like that.
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July 16th, 2009 at 10:49 am
Nasaman,
It might be a “stretch” to expect the EREV pickup to get 50 MPG, but I agree pickup owners would love to save on fuel costs. Hopefully a Voltec powered pickup could get 30 MPG (which is about twice of the average pickup mileage, I would expect). Improvements of that magnitude would be “jumped on” by truck owners. But, I suppose like everything else, your final mileage would be based on just how much battery you could stuff in the truck at a price point the buyer could afford. The more battery the more MPC in EV mode and the more fuel savings. But cost is just not there yet to get a battery size to give a pickup a 50 MPG rating – I don’t think.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:00 am
This is kind of funny. It sounds like they think Voltec can’t scale to a truck. Funny part is Raser already did this. Series Hybrid scales all the way up to a damn Locomotive for pete’s sake. They have 2 directions they can approach this. From Voltec and scale up, or GE Locomotive and scale down. It’s not impossible, sheeeeesh.
So a truck may have only 20AER, BFD! Better than 15MPG.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:03 am
I bet that with cell prices dropping that in a year or two a double size truck pack could be built at a reasonable price. The extra capacity could make the AER of an unloaded Silverado reasonable. Likely a truck Voltec would run the genset full time when the truck is loaded.
Then the two drive motor 4×4 silverado EREV could be a reality.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:08 am
“From a Volt prospective there are no major plans for changing the battery pack in size or energy in the next generations.”
Translation…
We are bound to the contract with LG Chem on LiMn. Because there are little to no competition on large format LiMn, there is little incentive for them to lower the price till just one week of the contract expiration. Therefore the cost and size will stay the same.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Absolutely agreed!
I don’t blame Andrew for not stepping into that one. I wouldn’t want to make product decisions right now either!
You just HAVE to be right… tough place to be in!
I think it WOULD be right though!
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:09 am
GM should start selling small cutting edge two(2) and three(3) wheeler vehicles to the public. These would make great machines to test the very bleeding technology before migrating to cager’s vehicles. Nothing kewler than a silent torque busting bike or trike to get the adrenalin flowing. By using a less expensive test bed their R & D dollars would go a lot farther.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Yes, my use of the term SOC window refers to that part of the capacity that is used, for the Volt, the current SOC window is 8 kWh.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:14 am
And would be an excellent vehicle for a people mover Voltec vehicle. IMO.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:14 am
OK, I thinkl there are enough Super Electric cars / Super expensive electric cars. Anyone can build a fast EV that cost a sh|tload but can they build one for the common lower middle class to upper mid class in the range of $25-$30K?
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Good for you.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Talk about lack of vision! How many EREV trucks could GM sell? As many as it could build! Key is on board generator that can be used to power worksite or as emergency backup!
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:25 am
The only problem I see with this is that by saying 2 or 3 wheels you are leaving out most of the buying public.
This one has been discussed at length, our good friend EVO (regular poster) has a 40 mile range electric motorcycle and LOVES the thing. I think that`s great, but there is absolutely no chance of me or most people I know switching to a motorbike for commuting.
I have no issue with R&D being done on whatever platform, but I`m only buying a car with a roof (convertable is GOOD, no roof at all is not) Cost cutting is a good thing though.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:26 am
You could well be right on that one.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:30 am
The “Country Cadillac” market should shrink as the new CAFE standards, which apply to classes of vehicles, dramatically increase the price of trucks.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Being this one is from M-B I`m going with maybe not.
However, every electric car added to the engineering books helps refine the technology. Sad that nobody but Jay Leno can afford these things!
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:32 am
I agree 100%. It would be nice if the claims were true, though.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:33 am
First things first, absolutely.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:36 am
I thought the whole idea about driving a truck was to drive the biggest, baddest, non aerodynamic, heavy piece of machinery on the block (farm). lol
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:38 am
I really think that our friend Andrew is focused on the ball.
“Get the Volt out the door!”
THEN they can look at the alternatives like the EREV Orlando van and EREV Silverado.
Focus not lack of vision.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Bright Automotive thinks light trucks are ripe for EV applications:
http://www.brightautomotive.com/vehicles
Note the application is for a van. Probably because the aerodynamics can be much better and the payload for a van is generally lower and more predictable.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Opening the door for an EREV Silverado.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:43 am
I’m game for a small electric truck. As long as it can haul 2 – 3 yards of dirt, gravel etc. typical house hold garden materials, I would be greatly interested in purchasing one. Yes the cost may be high but since I would be using it mostly for hauling garden waste and making short trips, it would pay off it time. An EV car would be great to have just to reduce my carbon footprint, but it wouldn’t be what I would need. A small EV truck would allow me to do the small errands running around town as well do any hauling that I would do. Yes the loads would be small, but it is just for household use. Market it for the household because it wouldn’t be strong enough nor big enough for most businesses.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:44 am
“Sad that nobody but Jay Leno can afford these things!”
So true!
For me, a BEV DIY Pickup next year is my goal. I’ll hopefully get it done before Fall of next year.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Neil and I have been lobbying for a pickup since we got here….lol
Personally I think the pickup would most likely come in less expensive as I want it bare bones for a workhorse. AC is the only luxury. 77% of the cost will probably be batt pack.
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:54 am
This is one of the reasons we put bull bars on the front of them you know!
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Interesting article. Hopefully he’ll have some positive impact on advertising. One problem with agencies is that they tell you what to do, and you pay them whether it works or not. One aspect of the article which jumped out at me was the comment about Bob not using Twitter. In case no one has noticed, very few people — and virtually no young people — use Twitter.
Other than Cadillac advertising, which has been effective — the new ad for the CTS featuring the women has great visuals and is sexy, young and fun (the line that you want people to “hate of see you go but love to see you leave” is a classic) — most GM advertising is entirely forgettable. When I think of most GM brands what immediately springs to my mind is … nothing. (Well in the case of Buick maybe “old”).
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July 16th, 2009 at 11:57 am
I think the words ‘elected to retire’ paid a pretty accurate portray of what happened…my translation works out to be something like, “you can empty trash cans, or you can go quietly”
(btw, he was 19 years younger than Lutz…so yeah, he was getting pretty old…58)
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
So you have!
I agree there is a big market for these too.
Most trucks, particularly the work ones, are bought fairly loaded since those guys practically live in their trucks.
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
That would be cool… build site? daily blog? non region specific Bluray Disk’s with action sequences?
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
I’m going to tuck this down close to the bottom of thread because it is off topic…but ‘in topic’ in reference to the Volt.
As we mentioned the other day, Ontario is giving away $10,000 off the price of a EV, (as well they are giving out special ‘green’ license plates that late you drive in HOV lanes, on front lawns, and 15% off Rolling Stone’s tickets)
What is probably of interest here is not the localized rebate thing, but the fact McGuinty (Ontario Premier) chose to do it at a Chevy dealership, and with a Volt in attendence. Here is the video:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/07/16/10150611-sun.html#/news/2009/07/15/pf-10145871.html
—-
Also of interest, and for the first time ever (at least that I know of), Toyota is pissed-off about it too, that had been surprising ‘mum’ on the whole thing forever:
“Ontario had to help stabilize the auto industry by providing aid to GM and Chrysler Group LLC, said Stephen Beatty, managing director of Toyota Canada Inc. But he said that was meant to be a one-time action — step in and get out.
Toyota, known for its hybrid technology, was not informed of the government’s intention to offer the rebates and was taken off guard that the announcement venue was a Chevrolet dealership, Mr. Beatty said. “The question is: Is this a well-thought-out industry strategy? Or is it sort of the next stage in advancing a particular product and helping a particular company?”
“How long does this continue?” Mr. Beatty said. “We can’t set up a situation where the future of the industry depends on constant subsidies…. This suggests that [the government] is prepared to be interventionist beyond their aim to help the industry recover.”
Industry analyst Dennis DesRosiers echoed Mr. Beatty’s concern. “A cynic would say this is just government subsidizing a product that is produced by a company they own. I think that is a bit too cynical. I just think it is bad policy from a variety of perspectives
http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=1796664
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Thanks Don, I was thinking I would find no suitable place to pepper it in here. I was kind of hoping for one Michael Robinson to post a random ditty on h*******…but you take what you can get, lol.
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned a trailer park conversion; wait for a used Volt, then chop the passenger roof off.
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
I think a plugin 2mode would be best in a full size PU & SUV. If it could be made to run all electric for 10 or 15 miles and still pull the boat on the weekend it would be a big seller.
I look at myself I drive about 10 mies one way to work If I could charge at work and 10 miles home I would never use electric. But on the weekend I could still pull my boat or snowmobiles that would be the best!!!!
I think there are many many people like me.
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
The point that I got from the article is that Lutz is in charge of evaluating and replacing the people who work in marketing. He’s also going to revaluate their relationships with various advertising agencies. IMHO, those kinds of changes are long overdue.
He doesn’t need to tweet himself to accomplish any of that. He has other people who will do that for him. (Preferably people with more tact than he has anyway.)
I’m not saying he’ll definitely do a great job with it. He doesn’t have any marketing experience. But at least someone’s re-evaluating the marketing department. IMHO, that’s a very good thing. And he does know GM’s product line-up better than anyone, which is important when it comes to marketing.
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
“So you wont get 40 miles of range in a truck, but can you supplement a truck with the battery?”
“You can, but if you’re not hitting the sweet spot of 78% of the driving American public, how many will you sell? Everyone of these things in the portfolio has to be viable.”
I must preface this by saying I truely have enjoyed Mr. Farah’s interviews more than any other GM person. He gives good, straight information and doesn’t seemed to hampered by corporate speak. He also seems more willing to give more complete, honest opinions. This opinion however is disturbing, not so much because he believes pickups aren’t a good application for the Voltec drivetrain, but more so because this opinion seems to be based on the premise that an EREV (Voltec) must get 40 miles AER. I understand they put a lot of stock in this limited Los Angelos only study and for passenger vehicles it is fine. They should do broader demographic study for light trucks. Cars and light trucks are used differently. I believe they will find there is a nice market for a 25 miles AER EREV pickup, especially if it has 3000lb towing capacity and can function as a generator. Of course, a two-mode plug-in may make more sense to day but battery improvements will change this dynamic. The other aspect that helps out is that pickup truck buyers aren’t generally that concerned about 0-60 times.
This is a surprisingly poorly thought out statement from someone that otherwise shows great thinking.
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Threadjack I guess, but I thought most here would be interested to see Volt’s being assembled in Videos presented by GM at:
http://www.chevroletvoltage.com
Pretty cool stuff. The videos are fast but feature many familiar faces, (Andrew Farah, Frank Weber, to name a few), and show quick little details of Volt Iver’s being assembled. Check it out.
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Question–other than the 12% ownership (and I know that’s a big deal), does Canada or Ontario have any reason to favor the Detroit companies over the Japanese? I know that GM and Ford and Chrysler do a lot of manufacturing in Ontario. But I thought Toyota did too? The US does, but these are American companies? Not Canadian?
By the way, (and I know this wasn’t the point of your post)–I think it’s beyond hypocritical for Toyota to complain about the EV subsidy given the massive subsidies for hybrids and now EVs in Japan. At least here, unlike Japan, Toyota has equal access to those subsidies if they choose to build an EV. I’m sure both Mitsubishi and Nissan will benefit from it.
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July 16th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Absolutely, nobody had issues with going outside and changing the setting between 2×4 and 4×4. They don’t have problems with removable bed covers. These consumers are used to having more interaction with their vehicle to get the most out of them. An EREV pickup would not need to be seemless. It would be better off packed with features like mountain mode to turn the genset on early when you know you will need to dip into the battery power to suppliment the generator power. It could be parallel through the road. It could be all kinds of things.
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
I thought there were volume discounts built into the contract? And wouldn’t GM still be free to contract with another supplier if they wanted to build a different car, or a truck?
My guess is that GM is still working on the Volt. And they want to see how things go with that before they make any other commitments. It’s not like the hybrid Tahoe, Sierra or Silverado have been a huge success..
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
I assumed he meant “50mpg” until the battery has been depleted. Using the battery for the bulk of the power, but using the gasoline engine and the battery together for climbing a hill or merging onto the highway.
A heck of a lot better than 12mpg, no matter what!
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
I think AF is basically saying, they are going to concentrate on the Volt for now. Or I should say, 16Kwh systems with a 40mile range. An EV truck is possible, but it would require more batteries, which isn’t on the plate for now. However, like they said, it may be sometime in the future. If/when the price of batteries goes down, the Volt and Volt-like vehicles will most likely start making more profit for GM and/or the price of the cars will decrease. I dont think they will add more batteries anytime soon. If anything, they will probably remove some, if they can still get the 40miles w/less battery. The target is and always has been 40miles. And GM has expressed, that this will continue to be the target in the near future.
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Question–other than the 12% ownership (and I know that’s a big deal)…
_____________________________________
Not an expert but, that seems like a big incentive for a country with a population nearing that of California.
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
As I understand and have read, someone correct me if i’m wrong here, LG has the contract for 3 years volume pricing, for whatever that’s worth, at an XXX amount of cells per year. Also, I think there’s stipulation that they be the “Lions Share” of Volt cells and pay “Fair Market value”. Now that’s for Lithium-Manganese cells. .
This means if another chemistry, say LiFePO4, or Cobalt or Nano Lattice or whatever comes out and surpasses LiMn in density and power, GM is stuck with their contract for LG. LG has no reason to drop their price because the Chem is different, therefore “Fair Market value” remains where it’s at for LiMn.
Ditto for IF EEStore releases it’s product today at half the cost of LG. The contract holds firm and GM is bound to it. With no other EREV product they have currently, they’re screwed.
Of course this is hypothetical but the contract as it’s laid if correct.
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I plan on journaling and posting help questions at diyelectriccar.com
That’s where I get many questions answered on tranny and DC motor coupling/adapting as well as motor coltroller specs for the most adequate controller for my build.
Just a fair warinig though. Some of those guys on there a down right jerks/a$$holes. But most are helpfull. My cells, i’ll be purchasing from Jim and Dave at evcomponents.com. I already purchased some small cells to r&d a single board BMS for a standalone batt pack modular in design. It’s going to be fun endeavor.
I will be mimicing down to the same pickup, these guys’s efforts from here: http://www.lionev.com/DIY_Ranger.html
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Just so long as it has a usefully sized bed. The 4′ bed in the Subaru Baja is too small for my purposes — a compact station wagon with roofracks would be much more useful.
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I’m planning/hoping to install the same system in my house this fall. I’m glad to hear you like it!
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
I think you’re absolutely right (except Farah isn’t the problem he’s the solution)…but then again if we’re wrong we won’t be on the hook for a few billion in development costs or a lower IPO value when the Govt. tries to get part of the $80 billion back it’s spent in the auto industry. The idea needs 1)Time 2) Lots of money and 3) A champion with a lot of authority within GM and a strong taste for risk. You know, the same way Larry Burns is with Hydrogen.
Does Bob Lutz like trucks, anyone know? Maybe an SS, asphalt burning, drag racing, electric, performance demonstration truck. I know not practical, but it would stir up some interest in the concept! Like the concept that inspired Lyle to create this site.
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Also the CAW (The UAW’s northern cousin) has a HUGE lobby in Ontario where most auto manufacturing happens in Canada.
Favoring One manufacturer (even though it’s the one I like) was a silly thing for him to do.
It’ll be interesting to see if this program will “finally” get transport Canada to approve the Zen for Canadian roads. I don’t particularly want one since I need highway capablity for my commute but it’s silly that they are not available for those they would/could work for.
Both Toyota and Honda build several models as well as the VW Routan van (at the Chrysler plant) are built in southern Ontario
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Yes, this is the truck “culture.”
I wonder if there is room in this “bars on the front / winch that’s never used / quartz lights on top of the cab” aesthetic for any remolding.
What I’m getting to so delicately is to wonder just how aerodynamic such a utilitarian vehicle can be made. There’s been no real push to achieve such aerodynamics in a field packed with V8s, Hemi’s and Diesels. You were always going to burn a lot of fuel in a real truck, so curvy shapes must’ve seemed like nickel-and-diming (to say nothing of potentially emasculating a *ahem* symbol).
I’ve always wondered why the cab of a truck couldn’t resemble that of the more aerodynamic vans, with a spoiler at the back to help “pull” a cone of air along with it (which would enclose the cargo bay). The bed’s sides might be higher near the cab to help spread the dead-air zone back towards the tailgate. What could serious aerodynamic research contribute to the idea of the personal, flexible cargo-hauler?
The real issue being, of course; would anyone in Truck Country buy such a “space truck?” Would mileage alone be able to win over the cowboy-hat-and-boots crowd with such an approach?
I have to admit from living where I do that the answer might be “no.”
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Keeping their eye on the ball and avoiding scope creep!
Well done team!
Now for an extended mode test drive!
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
…An EV truck is possible, but it would require more batteries, which isn’t on the plate for now. However, like they said, it may be sometime in the future. If/when the price of batteries goes down, the Volt and Volt-like vehicles will most likely start making more profit for GM and/or the price of the cars will decrease…
____________________
When they started the Volt they assumed the battery development curves and the Volt development curves would meet somewhere in 2009 – 2010. Someone in GM needs to be convinced the same thing can be done with a truck, van or SUV.
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
I’d be interested to hear more — do you have a link?
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Someone commented Zenn’s cars are legal in Quebec but not Ontario. If true, seems like literally shooting yourself in the foot to avoid the possibility of interfering with the flow of traffic.
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
“two Volt motors, one could be optimized for highway speeds, the other one tuned for low speed efficiency”
Now where have I heard that before?
(No, I never applied this idea specifically to pickup trucks; but it makes sense).
As to the bass boat: Does this mean that the rear motor is underwater? Does this make anyone else uneasy?
This seems like another reason to make the front wheels work at low speed, and the rear at highway speed (the other reasons being that 1) the front wheels do most of the braking, and lower speed motors would be able to turn more of this momentum back into electricity than taller-geared ones 2) rear wheel drive is more desirable at highway speeds).
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
The Nissan one is the mule.. I think the iMiev is pretty close to reality.
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I think the answer might be somewhere in the middle.
Molded in offroad lights (assuming they work well) would likely be accepted. A spoiler on the back of the cab (not affecting loadspace in a big way) would likely be OK too. (possibly removable?)
A lot of the newer aftermarket “bull bumpers” are more wrap around than they used to be. The factory could emulate this.
However the sweeping bed sides would not be accepted, it would screw up cargo capacity and fitment of campers/toppers. (AND look far too much like the metrosexual honda trucklet… that would be a MAJOR fail!)
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Just add another T without the BMS. It would look a little like this…H
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Just call it El Camino Electrico.. hit all the possible marketing niches
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Yep, just different packaging and a few more cells.
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Cap’n;
You could keep us posted on the truck project here with a forum thread. You’d be able to post pics there, too.
I’m pulling for you, but my rather cynical nature leads me to believe that this will end up costing you far, far more than you anticipate (Prove me wrong!! Please!!!)
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Reply to myself… as I read and listen to all you I’m now leaning more toward truck Voltec than 2 mode.
What a great forum! Always something to learn!
Thanks as always Lyle!
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
But you want those back wheels turning to pull the boat out of the water.
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
SOC window will change as GM becomes more comfortable with the battery.. and it can also change if they use a more rugged battery or they reduce the warranty.. Industry norm is around 80% SOC I think. Different chemistries use different SOC. Its a pretty technical term.
I could see modular battery packs in a 3/4 ton pickup, all around 400volts DC and all connected in parallel. Make the modules about 5kwh usable and offer them as options.. they get bolted to the frame just under the bed… or maybe IN the bed, your choice.
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
I hope Michael Robinson is doing OK. Anyone heard from Him?
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
many trucks are bought for purely emotional reasons by private owners.. actually I think the majority owners are just like that.
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
“Anyone can build a fast EV that cost a sh|tload but can they build one for the common lower middle class to upper mid class in the range of $25-$30K?”
Batteries are still very expensive, perhaps the iMiev will be the first one to do so without rebates.
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
It would be nice for them to multi-task, but do they have the resources? (people & $)
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
I think they REALLY need to show a winner which means play the one ball until they score.
Once MY Volt is in my driveway (OK, at least they are selling to real people) then they will have proven themselves and the technology. Respinning it (Voltec) into higher capacities and more power (For Trucks or a CUV/Van) is incremental and infinately easier than starting from zero.
Prove out the platform first.
The truck is a GREAT idea and I bet Andrew and team know this. They are playing it smart I think.
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
FYI
GM built some S-10’s that were all electric. In 1997 & 1998 they built a factory Chevrolet S-10 Electric w/NiMH front wheel drive.
Maximun speed of about 71 mph.
Constent speed range@60mph about 87.7 miles
The batteries are mounted between the frame rails.
These were sold to fleet owners and the military for use on bases.
There are still a few of these around and can be bought from individual owner. $10K to $20K depending on condition.
Ford also made a 1998 Ford Ranger EV, top speed 86 mph. computer limited. RWD single speed,rear motor.
These have a range of about 50 miles.
If you really want to go electric there all kinds of alternatives.
God Bless America’
Tom
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
“GM built some S-10’s that were all electric.”
Those were OEM’d retrofit from “Solectria” now they call themselves Azure Dynamics.
A conversion currently costs $14K to $20K if you were to have someone do it for you.
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
I just checked out chevroletvoltage.com.
It’s a nice website with lots of good video and news for us Volt news junkies. Whoever put that site together did a good job. GM has a Facebook site and links to this blog as well. Twitter too.
It looks like GM is going high tech with their marketing and communications these days. It’s great to have all this Volt information so if someone is asking you questions about how the Volt works or whatever, you can simply email them a link to chevroletvoltage.com. Then, a top marketing or engineering guy on the Volt project can explain it all to them via video, question and answer sessions, etc. Nothing like getting your information about the Volt “straight from the source”.
Chevy’s doing all the right things to reach out to potential Volt customers. People who are intrigued about the Volt can learn about it whenever they want and don’t have to rely on commercials or magazine articles. People spend plenty of time surfing the net during slow periods at work or when they are traveling, etc. Gotta have cool websites like this one to make sure that people can learn about your awesome, upcoming products like the Volt anytime. Some people don’t like to read as much, so the VIDEOS about the Volt is great. People want to get a feel for what it would be like to own a Volt.
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
One guys infinitely easier is another guys 1.5 billion dollar moonshot!
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
The new GM needs to seriously rethink this negative position on a Pickup EV. If a series EV can power trains than they should be well suited for my Pickup. Remember that Pickups have been the top selling vehicle in the USA for decades and still remain the top sellers. To dismiss this segment is outrageous and shows total disregard for consumer preference. The collective management at the new GM needs to firmly grasp their heads and forcefully pull it out of their dark nether region immediately !
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
If I were to pick which one, best to reach that point, I pick the iMiev also.
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
N Riley:
I agree completely.
A Volt woulod be perfect for me with my driving requirements.
Either a PHEV or E-REV Equinox with anything over 15 miles AER would be perfect for the wife’s daily driver, and for the weekends for us to do the normal chores….
I can see the need for those that really need a truck, but personally, I only need one once or twice per year, and the rental at Lowes or Home Depot works fine for that…..
Do people that drive real “working” pickup trucks really spend $60K? Obviously, it has been a long time since I even looked at the sticker price of a 1/2 or 3/4 ton pickup!!!
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
LOL!
Painfully true!
Gitterdone team!
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
I knew you would get that in there……
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Capt Jack,
Those guys at Lion seem to know what they are doing. Good luck with your conversion. Keep us posted.
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
I think that is more for Aptera or Myers Motors NMG or the motorcycle companies to do.
The problem is that three wheel vehicles are not really good for winter climates. Aptera is not selling outside of CA at this point.
I think GM is doing it right with the Volt.
Time will tell……
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Yeah, just call me “Johnny One-note”.
With Statik leaning “toward the Light” I’ve had a lot less to do lately(lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS
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July 16th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
All true… Yet I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Phoenix Motors Truck yet:
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/vehicles/phoenix-sut.php
or the Hummer Electric Conversion:
http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/the-electric-h3
Trucks will lose a lot more energy aerodynamically, but a heaver load should in theory provide more regeneration energy when braking. Assuming that’s a fairly efficient process, using electric trucks at low speeds might well be practical.
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July 16th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I don’t think you are making the right comparison. Instead consider the two-mode trucks that get 20MPG for a much smaller premium.
The battery pack required to get the range you claim would be massive. It takes all the downside of the volt and amplifies it.
Plus can you imagine a V8 range-extender running at a constant 4K RPM??
Ok, maybe a V6, but you get my point.
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July 16th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
GM has to make a volume commitment at some point, even if EEscam comes thru at the last moment, GM has to test those cells for some time, probably a couple of years..
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July 16th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
The country cadillacs are not too bad if you slow down.. I have a friend with Ford F150, extended cab, 4wd, automatic, V8 engine.. at around 45mph you get about 24mpg fuel usage.. it drops to about 19 at around 55mph.
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July 16th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Actually, since the V6 or V8 range extender would be running in one of the well known “sweet spots” it’s quite possible the fuel consumption would be very acceptable.
There are LOTS of guesses on future cell pricing, but overall it seems to be moving downward.
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July 16th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Very true…and it ticks me off. I would buy one if I could put it on the road.
Sidenote: The are actually on the ‘home stretch’ to get them on Ontario roads now…hopefully soon.
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July 16th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
sealed motors are not a problem, it is a problem that was solved many decades ago… and you really dont want to put the back of the pickup in the water, that is poor boat handling..
Having the motors tuned for different speeds will gain you a bit more efficiency, but both motors will still work at both high and low speed.. sort of an electronic gear box.
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July 16th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Detroit auto and ‘Canada’ don’t have nearly as ’special’ as a relationship as they did in the past….but Ontario and Detroit auto are thick as theives.
GM itself, still has a sizeable footprint for Ontario, and it is actually starting to grow again. (with the new Buick, XTS, Impala, Camaro…and soon to come Caprice coming online in Ontario).
I should know this, but I would guess GM employees 12,000-odd people in Ontario. However, the bigger story for us, is we have a ton of people working in the 3rd party/parts business…and the bulk of their business still goes to Detroit auto. (think Magna). GM Canada was Canada’s largest exporter (dunno if it still is).
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July 16th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Air conditioning?! It’s a truck, not a country club.
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July 16th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
2 – 3 yards = small?! You must drive a dump truck if you think a 5,000 pound payload is small.
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July 16th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
So Voltec is unibody only and GM will continue to maximize milking old fashioned and heavy body on frame?
Name me a unibody pickup truck that sells well.
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July 16th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
They should sell an aerodynamic bed cover from top of cab to top of liftgate for the country cadillac crowd. They can still do most of their “hauling” with the top on and remove it for the big jobs. There are a lot flat bed covers that help some and cabin covers but I haven’t seen an aero optimized one like I’m suggesting. This would be especially helpful for a plug-in.
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July 16th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Besides the Ford Ranger, which gets a price premium over maket value, according to Forbes, for its best in class fuel economy, 23 mpg combined, according to EPA.
Do something, GM. Aim for > 30 mpg and you’ll be a darling of us penny pinching rednecks.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
I think GM would *like* to make a plug-in electric truck, but they are smart enough to know that truck buyers are not likely to pay the extra $15,000 that it will take to add the battery and electronics.
I want one too, but batteries have a long ways to go before an electric truck makes economic sense.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
I agree and just posted some similar ideas before seeing your comments. I also agree with MuddyRoverRob that the answer is somewhere in the middle tending to the more efficient over time. Contractor and real work truck owners general don’t care that much how there truck looks and anything that saves them money looks good when it’s business. As for the more recreational truck drivers, they will probably be a more mixed crowd but I think some things can be done tastefully and a bed cover that aids aerodynamics also offers security for whatever they haul that fits under the cover. Everyone would appreciate these features.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Good link for the announcement. I noticed the shot of the door because my browser hung on that image for a while. Everytime I see that I try to refocus my eyes to see it clearer. I wish we could just have a solid color where they have that double-image looking thing going on.
Of course Toyota would say this, merited or otherwise. No different than the flak the whole car industry through at CARB to gut the EV rules and insert long term Hydrogen “research” projects.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
True about Farah, that is why I started with the complements but I felt it didn’t excuse the misuse of the study.
Aren’t we on the hook either way, in a sense. If someone else (cough…Chrysler…cough…Razor…cough…Trinity) comes out with one and is saleable we loose on the IPO. It really takes a good evaluation of the technology and data on hand to make an educated decision about greenlighting a plug-in pickup, but we’re only talking about a concept at first anyway. They drop a lot of coin on concepts that they know will never have a chance of hell at seeing the light of day. Seems like a concept EREV or two-mode plugin would get a lot of publicity and good press even if they don’t send it to production. Additionally, it would be a dang shame if the decision not even to investigate doing one is largely based on the California study of 1500 or so city drivers with 78% of them driving 40 miles or less. Even if this data held true for pickup usage, their still is about 50% that drives 25 miles or less per day. Also, what would the range extended mileage be, 25-30mpg? So, those driving greater than the AER on a daily basis would stand to benefit even more if this is the case.
The problem is that their Voltec design is for 120KW system max (per Converj spec). They should be working on a 150-180KW system in addition to reduced cost 120KW for Gen2 IMO, regardless of their stand on pickups. This will allow Voltec Impalas, STS, CTS, Lucernce, CUV, **Minivan**, and did I mention ****Minivan***.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
GM plays a lot of balls. They need to hit up their new bestest friend Unchy Sam, oh..that’s right they are about to receive several billion dollars to for the design and production of advanced vehicles. Plus they’ve got a dead-end hydrogen program that can have significant resources diverted to a project that might acutally make it to production in the next 4 years.
I’m thinking like an owner here and wanting to take the right risks.
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July 16th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Multiple opportunities for Farah to discuss Range Extender operational benefits.
Instead, (and once again) he avoids that subject like the plague, and only talks about EV operation.
Hmmm.
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July 16th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
They already make a $42500 hybrid pickup truck. thats a lot of dough for a few extra MPG
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
I thought this GM ad for the Cadillac CTS was memorable. The actress in it was pretty hot. I’d like to ride around with her in a CTS anytime she wanted to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkEw1rsBUak
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
I think working 40 years at GM is like winning the lottery… almost twice. Most people, especially VP’s, could retire from GM comfortable after 25 years. I still dont understand some of the ppl i know that didnt take the bailouts. Some of the guys were offered 130K to just leave. What more do you need?
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
And here’s to you, Mr. Robinson
Jesus loves you more than you will know (Wo, wo, wo)
God bless you please, Mr. Robinson
Heaven holds a place for those who pray
(Hey, hey, hey…hey, hey, hey)
We’d like to know a little bit about you for our files
We’d like to help you learn to help yourself
Look around you, all you see are sympathetic eyes
Stroll around the grounds until you feel at home
(sorry)
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July 16th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
There is A PILE of subliminal (and not so subliminal) techniques in that add. Must be why I watched it 5 times.
/ I don’t think most people realize how much and how fast that stuff is coming at them when they switch on the boob tube.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:04 am
I have a 2000 Ford Ranger EV all electric with a NiMH battery pack. It has a 65 mile real range. I drive it to work about 45 miles every day, fantastic truck. I am extremely happy with it. I am glad that Ford didn’t crush them all like GM did witth the EV-1, I still hold a grudge aginst GM for doing that. I don’t care what GM’s excuse was, it was really unexcusable.
I think that an EREV pickup would be fantastic for fleet usage, especially for building maintenance, security, or other light duty stuff like that.
Heck if GM could figure out how to get a light duty diesel and get that into a small size pickup (Colorado etc) I think they would have a real hit on their hands.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:25 am
I will be trading in my Volt for a Voltec Suburban. Then I’ll trade in my Express Van fleet for Voltec Vans.
It’s just a matter of time…
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:25 am
On page 15 it says “288 Cells, 70% of the Cost”.
But I still don’t see where it says $12K, $11.4K or anything like that.
The CEO from CPI (the company that builds the Volt packs today) says the total pack will cost $8K.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html
Specifically, he says:
• First … the ratio of end-of-life to beginning-of-life is 75%.
• Second, the AT application is sized for a 70% depth of discharge…
• Third …
• Fourth, a vehicle pack battery pack has non-cell costs such as a monitoring system.
All four of these items together justify a 2.5x premium for the AT application (or approximately $ 1,000/available kWh)
The first two points make clear that he is talking about available energy, and not total battery capacity. 75% (for end of life) times 70% (for depth of discharge) is 50%, which lines up exactly with the 8kWh on the Volt. $1,000/available kWh times 8kWh = $8000.
The fourth point makes clear that $1,000/available kWh includes the pack overhead, and not just the cells.
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:27 am
What LG guy do you mean?
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July 17th, 2009 at 7:17 am
crossover is the new minivan
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July 17th, 2009 at 11:04 am
http://www.automobilemag.com/green/news/0907_roush_electric_vehicle_pickup_truck_rev/index.html
Sounds like it would have been ideal in major industrial, commercial and military applications.
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July 17th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Programs, get ‘yer programs. You can’t tell who’s on first without ‘yer programs….
http://www.pluginamerica.org/plug-in-vehicle-tracker.html
It’s missing at least twenty offerings, including the most industrial and heaviest duty electric drive applications (trains, mining trucks and shovels, large forklifts, etc.) and with a more than month old update is already very out of date, as things are already further along faster than expected.
I like that the Zero X is trying to climb on the BYD e6 in order to kiss the Mitsubishi i-miev in the banner at the top, but I might just be thinking that way because of the latest Piaggio MP3 hybrid photos:
http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1724
http://static.huddler.com/imgrepo/thumbs/f/fc/piaggio_mp3__hybrid.jpg/600×800px-LL-piaggio_mp3__hybrid.jpg
Like electric drive needs cheesecake. Just let me feel that max torque off the line every time and I’m yours (sorry, mini E drivers with the old, lame BMW algorithm).
Hey, the latest 2010 priuses just arrived in the US on a solar powered transoceanic cargo ship. so that has to help lower the overall dust to dust footprint.
Lots happening every day now. Electric drive is an unstoppable freight train (diesel electric drive).
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I can do ya one better. We’ve had such a hot season so far I haven’t needed to turn the gas on for the water heater at all, I just keep it on the Pilot setting. It’s been over 100 degrees for 17 straight days now. My gas bill last month was $15, this month it was $16.
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Cast my vote for the “Silverado with a 200 kW traction motor and a 12 kWh SOC window” for sure as long as it is a Voltec.
A 200kW electric motor compares to the 110kW in the Volt, providing much greater power and torque.
12kWh to play with would, because of the heavier/less aerodynamic vehicle, probably give you between 25 and 35 miles AER for heavy hauling and very likely a full 40 miles AER if you’re using it like most trucks here in Texas: hauling groceries, a gun rack and a six pack of beer. And Fido in the back of course.
If you take the lowest number and compare that to a standard ICE pickup hauling a heavy load you’re increasing your gas mileage somewhere between double to half again as much. I think it’s pretty common to get in the low teens while hauling a load or towing a boat or horse trailer. Caveat there, not personal experience.
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July 17th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Pete, have you looked into converting it to EV?
If you don’t put more than 40 to a hundred miles daily on your Avalanche you will save more money by going EV. The conversion would probably cost you less than buying a new pickup to boot.
Just food for thought…
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
The contract does not state that there will be 288 LiMn cells in each Chevy Volt made. It just states that GM will buy a certain number of cells over the course of that 3 year contract.
There is nothing stopping GM from increasing production of the Volt and making the excess production units with a different battery chemistry. I don’t think they even HAVE to put the LG cells into a production Volt. If they doubled production or came out with the Converj and EREV Orlando plus an EREV Silverado they could put the LG packs wherever they wanted or stick them in a warehouse (visions of the tail end of Indiana Jones 1st movie).
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I am sure they have to take it step by step with EREV.
I predict (said while gazing into crystal ball) that GM will have great success with the Volt and will quickly ramp up production of several different EREV vehicles based on the Voltec drive train.
We’re talking 2012 models of EREV Orlando, Silverado and Converj if not sooner. Sold in quantities of up to a million vehicles a year.
Or GM could drop the ball and squander this amazing technology lead that they have right now in the Voltec EREV drive train, somebody else will take the risk and wipe GM off the map.
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July 17th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Right. And don’t forget that Toyota has gone in the wrong direction with parallel hybrid – therefore guaranteeing that you MUST use oil to get to work and back.
The future is Voltec EREV technology and BEV. GM got it right. Nissan has it right. Toyota is standing on the sidelines as far as decreasing dependence on foreign oil is concerned. This I say humbly as we own only Toyota right now.
People in US and Canada will vote with their dollars and GM and Nissan will win big.
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July 17th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
25 miles AER would significantly improve MPG ratings on the vehicles we as a nation need most desperately to improve (trucks and SUVs/CUVs).
Compare a Voltec pickup with a “CAFE standard” ICE @ 21 MPG.
Miles
Daily MPG
- – - – - – - – - – -
25 = INFINITE
30 = 126
35 = 73.5
40 = 56
45 = 47.25
50 = 42
55 = 38.5
60 = 36
65 = 34.13
70 = 32.67
75 = 31.5
80 = 30.55
85 = 29.75
90 = 29.08
95 = 28.5
100 = 28
105 = 27.56
110 = 27.18
115 = 26.83
I am pretty sure my math is correct. It looks like you get double the MPG at 50 miles driven a day and even at 115 miles driven in a day you’re still getting 27% better gas mileage.
I’d say that is significant only discussing savings on gas. Your point that the vehicle would be utilitarian for many people who earn a living with their truck is absolute icing on the cake. It just makes sense.
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July 17th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
GM needs to be thinking about EREV or natural gas trucks very seriously. That is a HUUUUGE market with even larger potential!
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July 17th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Mercedes ev super car ha! What a wimp.
http://www.shelbysupercars.com/news-012209.php
The Ultimate Aero EV utilizes a twin motor AESP producing an astounding 1,000 HP and 800 lb-ft of torque enabling it to rocket to 60 mph in a mere 2.5 seconds and reach a top speed of 208 mph. Not only does the Ultimate Aero EV have a range of 150-200 miles on a single charge
Not only that they won a bid to put there system in a motor home (EV 150 and Gas 350 miles)
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July 21st, 2009 at 5:08 pm
For the contractor, boat/camper tower, etc. a Volt truck is probably not viable but for the regular commuter (like me) who wants to be able to haul home some mulch, 2×4s or some sheets of plywood, a small Volt style pickup is ideal. Were it not for the mileage I’d still be driving one now. As it stands I just rent the home depot one as necessary and plan to group purchases. Ideally, though, I’d prefer to have the flexibility of having it all the time and a Volt Pickup would be perfect.
As to the percentage of pickup drivers who would go Voltec? Inquiring only current truck drivers and the number probably wouldn’t be that high. Include all drivers (like me) that would get one IF it were available and I think the number would be much bigger. I don’t need an Avalanche or F350… the old S10 (extended cab) was almost perfect size wise for my needs.
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