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	<title>Comments on: Poll: Should Hybrid Cars Have Distinctive Styling?</title>
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	<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/</link>
	<description>Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:55:54 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: EVO</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-127905</link>
		<dc:creator>EVO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-127905</guid>
		<description>In June, the Fusion hybrid was 11% of total Fusion sales (my prediction was betwen 8% and 33%, 37% if they had given it a dedicated name), so if it&#039;s not too early to tell, it looks like Ford did something wrong with their marketing of the Fusion hybrid, to the detriment of hybrid sales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In June, the Fusion hybrid was 11% of total Fusion sales (my prediction was betwen 8% and 33%, 37% if they had given it a dedicated name), so if it&#8217;s not too early to tell, it looks like Ford did something wrong with their marketing of the Fusion hybrid, to the detriment of hybrid sales.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-127585</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-127585</guid>
		<description>NO, this adds a lot to final cost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NO, this adds a lot to final cost.</p>
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		<title>By: Tech News &#187; Kia plans UK hybrids within three years, but favors hydrogen in long-term</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-127582</link>
		<dc:creator>Tech News &#187; Kia plans UK hybrids within three years, but favors hydrogen in long-term</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-127582</guid>
		<description>[...] Poll: Should Hybrid Cars Have Distinctive Styling? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Poll: Should Hybrid Cars Have Distinctive Styling? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: EVO</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-127399</link>
		<dc:creator>EVO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 20:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-127399</guid>
		<description>Disclaimer: this is very crude analysis and highly open to improvement. 

I don&#039;t see styling playing the driving role in sales. It may be more a result of functionality considerations.

What makes hybrid vehicles sell well are DISTINCTIVE RESULTS, LARGE absolute and percent MILEAGE DIFFERENCES for the vehicle class at a REASONABLE (consumer willingness to pay) PRICE difference.  

Results:
Strong hybrids sell well at reasonable prices, weak hybrids don&#039;t, with hybrid sales percent of platform growth exceeding mileage difference growth at large absolute mileage differences. 

SUVs can carry an additional 10% price premium on mileage improvements without degrading their share of platform sales.

If you want to sell many more hybrids.
1. Start with high mileage hybrids and improve their mileage as much as possible with as little change to price as possible.
2. SUVs command a price premium but make doing 1. harder. Keep them light.
3. Get costs down, always.

Background:
Compare EPA fuel economies of:

a. Prius Hybrid and Corolla
b. Camry Hybrid and Camry
c. Highlander Hybrid and Highlander

and consider their relative sales numbers and prices. Here we go:

Prius get 53% better milage than a corolla, 33% of the sales and costs 25% more than a Carolla.

Camry hybrid gets 36% better mileage than a camry, 8% of the sales and cost 26% more than a Camry.

Highlander hybrid gets 30% better mileage than a Highlander, 16% of the sales and cost 35% more than a Highlander (confusing with the L4 and V6).

Since the price difference is constant for the Prius and Camry we can make a statement about better mileage and sales. A 17% decline in mileage savings equaled a 25% decline in sales, holding price differences constant, meaning that for strong hybrid sedans, a 1% improvement in mileage will give you around a 1.47% improvement in the % of platform sales that are hybrids. 

That also means that hybrid sales ratio of platform growth increases more than mileage improvement growth, which means that if you have a minimal absolute difference in mileage on the same platform, regardless of price difference, you will have effectively no sales, GMs exact experience with weak and monster truck/SUV hybrids. That can&#039;t be good for recouping development and trim costs, but is an excellent way to shoot yourself in the feet.

Since the information above is publicly available, I am forced to conclude that GM&#039;s past hybrid strategy was a willful and conscious attempt to make hybrids look bad so they wouldn&#039;t have to make them. That strategy has been completely undercut by the success of strong hybrids.

We compare the 

a. Fusion Hybrid and Fusion
b. Escape Hybrid and Escape


Fusion hybrid get 56% better milage than a Fusion, too early in release to tell on %  of the sales and costs 40% more than a Fusion.

Escape hybrid gets 39% better mileage than a Escape, 8% of the sales and cost 45%  more than a Escape. 
 

So it boils down to Toyota wants to sell hybrids and is priced aggressively, Ford is ambivalent and enjoys charging more for the mileage improvement hybrids and GM actively doesn&#039;t want to sell hybrids.

The Escape hybrid gets a similar mileage percent difference and sales percent, but at a higher percent price difference to the Camry hybrid, so Ford is able to charge more for the Escape hybrid the same mileage % improvement as the Camry hybrid without degrading the sales percentage. 

The Fusion gets a better than Prius like gas mileage percent improvement over its platform gas counterpart, but charges a greater percent price difference for that mileage improvement, so expect the Fusion hybrid sales to be between 8% and 33% of the regular fusion sales. If it ends up being more or less than that range, than either my analysis is suspect or incomplete or Ford has discovered something new (good if &gt; 33%, bad if &lt; 8%) in their marketing. I predict that the platform share of hybrids for the Fusion would have been 37%, if they had named it a dedicated hybrid name, like the Nextus.

No, I didn&#039;t look at the GM , Honda and other OEM products. How much free work do you think I&#039;m going to do ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Disclaimer: this is very crude analysis and highly open to improvement. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see styling playing the driving role in sales. It may be more a result of functionality considerations.</p>
<p>What makes hybrid vehicles sell well are DISTINCTIVE RESULTS, LARGE absolute and percent MILEAGE DIFFERENCES for the vehicle class at a REASONABLE (consumer willingness to pay) PRICE difference.  </p>
<p>Results:<br />
Strong hybrids sell well at reasonable prices, weak hybrids don&#8217;t, with hybrid sales percent of platform growth exceeding mileage difference growth at large absolute mileage differences. </p>
<p>SUVs can carry an additional 10% price premium on mileage improvements without degrading their share of platform sales.</p>
<p>If you want to sell many more hybrids.<br />
1. Start with high mileage hybrids and improve their mileage as much as possible with as little change to price as possible.<br />
2. SUVs command a price premium but make doing 1. harder. Keep them light.<br />
3. Get costs down, always.</p>
<p>Background:<br />
Compare EPA fuel economies of:</p>
<p>a. Prius Hybrid and Corolla<br />
b. Camry Hybrid and Camry<br />
c. Highlander Hybrid and Highlander</p>
<p>and consider their relative sales numbers and prices. Here we go:</p>
<p>Prius get 53% better milage than a corolla, 33% of the sales and costs 25% more than a Carolla.</p>
<p>Camry hybrid gets 36% better mileage than a camry, 8% of the sales and cost 26% more than a Camry.</p>
<p>Highlander hybrid gets 30% better mileage than a Highlander, 16% of the sales and cost 35% more than a Highlander (confusing with the L4 and V6).</p>
<p>Since the price difference is constant for the Prius and Camry we can make a statement about better mileage and sales. A 17% decline in mileage savings equaled a 25% decline in sales, holding price differences constant, meaning that for strong hybrid sedans, a 1% improvement in mileage will give you around a 1.47% improvement in the % of platform sales that are hybrids. </p>
<p>That also means that hybrid sales ratio of platform growth increases more than mileage improvement growth, which means that if you have a minimal absolute difference in mileage on the same platform, regardless of price difference, you will have effectively no sales, GMs exact experience with weak and monster truck/SUV hybrids. That can&#8217;t be good for recouping development and trim costs, but is an excellent way to shoot yourself in the feet.</p>
<p>Since the information above is publicly available, I am forced to conclude that GM&#8217;s past hybrid strategy was a willful and conscious attempt to make hybrids look bad so they wouldn&#8217;t have to make them. That strategy has been completely undercut by the success of strong hybrids.</p>
<p>We compare the </p>
<p>a. Fusion Hybrid and Fusion<br />
b. Escape Hybrid and Escape</p>
<p>Fusion hybrid get 56% better milage than a Fusion, too early in release to tell on %  of the sales and costs 40% more than a Fusion.</p>
<p>Escape hybrid gets 39% better mileage than a Escape, 8% of the sales and cost 45%  more than a Escape. </p>
<p>So it boils down to Toyota wants to sell hybrids and is priced aggressively, Ford is ambivalent and enjoys charging more for the mileage improvement hybrids and GM actively doesn&#8217;t want to sell hybrids.</p>
<p>The Escape hybrid gets a similar mileage percent difference and sales percent, but at a higher percent price difference to the Camry hybrid, so Ford is able to charge more for the Escape hybrid the same mileage % improvement as the Camry hybrid without degrading the sales percentage. </p>
<p>The Fusion gets a better than Prius like gas mileage percent improvement over its platform gas counterpart, but charges a greater percent price difference for that mileage improvement, so expect the Fusion hybrid sales to be between 8% and 33% of the regular fusion sales. If it ends up being more or less than that range, than either my analysis is suspect or incomplete or Ford has discovered something new (good if &gt; 33%, bad if &lt; 8%) in their marketing. I predict that the platform share of hybrids for the Fusion would have been 37%, if they had named it a dedicated hybrid name, like the Nextus.</p>
<p>No, I didn&#8217;t look at the GM , Honda and other OEM products. How much free work do you think I&#8217;m going to do ?</p>
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		<title>By: EVO</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-127026</link>
		<dc:creator>EVO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-127026</guid>
		<description>Oh great. GMers are trying to communicate. Here&#039;s a gem:

&quot;I can&#039;t wait until I can drive the Volt. As Teddy Roosevelt said in 1910, &quot;If you build it they will come.&quot; In this case, they will buy. &quot; Frank Weber, GM Global Vehicle Line Executive and Chief Engineer .
http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&amp;Itemid=7&amp;func=view&amp;catid=11&amp;id=75#143

Teddy R. was talking about the Panama Canal.

Effectively, that&#039;s Say&#039;s Law, from 1803, influenced by Condillac,1776:

&quot;Say&#039;s Law claims that total demand in an economy cannot exceed or fall below total supply in that economy or as James Mill was to restate it, &quot;supply creates its own demand.&quot;  In Say&#039;s language, ... &quot;a glut can take place only when there are too many means of production applied to one kind of product and not enough to another&quot;.&quot; 

Such as too many full gassers and not enough (any) electric vehicles.

Say&#039;s work is frequently used to defend laissez-faire (leave it alone) free market capitalism in opposition to Keynesian views.

http://homepage.newschool.edu/het//profiles/say.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say&#039;s_law

The point is that if you have excess capacity (and we currently do in the US, to the tune of about 6 million vehicles a year), it&#039;s &#039;cause you were building crap consumers didn&#039;t want and not building stuff that consumers do want. Or maybe it&#039;s entirely due to banks restricting credit.  

Anyway, start cranking out those Volts already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh great. GMers are trying to communicate. Here&#8217;s a gem:</p>
<p>&#8220;I can&#8217;t wait until I can drive the Volt. As Teddy Roosevelt said in 1910, &#8220;If you build it they will come.&#8221; In this case, they will buy. &#8221; Frank Weber, GM Global Vehicle Line Executive and Chief Engineer .<br />
<a href="http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&amp;Itemid=7&amp;func=view&amp;catid=11&amp;id=75#143" rel="nofollow">http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&amp;Itemid=7&amp;func=view&amp;catid=11&amp;id=75#143</a></p>
<p>Teddy R. was talking about the Panama Canal.</p>
<p>Effectively, that&#8217;s Say&#8217;s Law, from 1803, influenced by Condillac,1776:</p>
<p>&#8220;Say&#8217;s Law claims that total demand in an economy cannot exceed or fall below total supply in that economy or as James Mill was to restate it, &#8220;supply creates its own demand.&#8221;  In Say&#8217;s language, &#8230; &#8220;a glut can take place only when there are too many means of production applied to one kind of product and not enough to another&#8221;.&#8221; </p>
<p>Such as too many full gassers and not enough (any) electric vehicles.</p>
<p>Say&#8217;s work is frequently used to defend laissez-faire (leave it alone) free market capitalism in opposition to Keynesian views.</p>
<p><a href="http://homepage.newschool.edu/het//profiles/say.htm" rel="nofollow">http://homepage.newschool.edu/het//profiles/say.htm</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say</a>&#8217;s_law</p>
<p>The point is that if you have excess capacity (and we currently do in the US, to the tune of about 6 million vehicles a year), it&#8217;s &#8217;cause you were building crap consumers didn&#8217;t want and not building stuff that consumers do want. Or maybe it&#8217;s entirely due to banks restricting credit.  </p>
<p>Anyway, start cranking out those Volts already.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Bellisario</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-126977</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Bellisario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-126977</guid>
		<description>It seems that people do want the world to know that they are doing something special for the environment.  Yes, I think these vehicles  show that it does matter - just look at the Prius sales numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that people do want the world to know that they are doing something special for the environment.  Yes, I think these vehicles  show that it does matter &#8211; just look at the Prius sales numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Grubb</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-126960</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Grubb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-126960</guid>
		<description>The Ford Fusion styling changed for 2010 to coincide with the release of the hybrid variant. I think that while all 2010 Fusions look alike, coupling the release of the hybrid powertrain with styling changes was a very smart move on Ford&#039;s part.

Styling aside, the Ford Fusion performs and beats in city mileage it&#039;s hybrid mid sized competition--the Toyota Camry hybrid (by 8 MPG, 24%) and Nissan Altima hybrid (by 6 MPG, 17%).

Distinctive styling helps, but the key is that the powertrain has to perform and really Wow the consumer. With the state of the economy and the car industry, the public is demanding gamechangers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Ford Fusion styling changed for 2010 to coincide with the release of the hybrid variant. I think that while all 2010 Fusions look alike, coupling the release of the hybrid powertrain with styling changes was a very smart move on Ford&#8217;s part.</p>
<p>Styling aside, the Ford Fusion performs and beats in city mileage it&#8217;s hybrid mid sized competition&#8211;the Toyota Camry hybrid (by 8 MPG, 24%) and Nissan Altima hybrid (by 6 MPG, 17%).</p>
<p>Distinctive styling helps, but the key is that the powertrain has to perform and really Wow the consumer. With the state of the economy and the car industry, the public is demanding gamechangers.</p>
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		<title>By: EVO</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-126951</link>
		<dc:creator>EVO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-126951</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Jim I. You may find the ER-EV is cheaper in up front costs, at least for now. 

&quot;A sporty two seater BEV with a real range of 200 miles, but it has to have four wheels and a roof&quot; = Tesla Roadster = $$$,$$$.

I have been trying to counter the frequent BEV hate on the board with some BEV fan-boi enthusiasm for my inexpensive but high performance highway capable electric motorcycle with the 40 mile AER. Keep in mind that a short recharge or instant power pack swap for me = 40 + 40 + 40 + ... as long as I last.

It&#039;s obvious that markets and demand exists (and has) for both ER-EVs and for EVs with superior performance at reasonable prices and typical current day vehicle looks (no huge 50&#039;s fins and heavy metal trophys glued to it, for example) and also that general electric drive demand is not monolithic (different groups of folks want different vehicle types with different e-ranges, prices and function (HEV,  PHEV. ER-EV, BEV) choices.

Whether it&#039;s a Zero S electric, a Piaggio MP3 hybrid, a Honda Insight, a plug in Toyota Prius, a newGM Chevy Volt, or a Mitsubishi i-miev, they all use electric drive. And all of those are on the streets with customers today (except the Volt). Yay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jim I. You may find the ER-EV is cheaper in up front costs, at least for now. </p>
<p>&#8220;A sporty two seater BEV with a real range of 200 miles, but it has to have four wheels and a roof&#8221; = Tesla Roadster = $$$,$$$.</p>
<p>I have been trying to counter the frequent BEV hate on the board with some BEV fan-boi enthusiasm for my inexpensive but high performance highway capable electric motorcycle with the 40 mile AER. Keep in mind that a short recharge or instant power pack swap for me = 40 + 40 + 40 + &#8230; as long as I last.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s obvious that markets and demand exists (and has) for both ER-EVs and for EVs with superior performance at reasonable prices and typical current day vehicle looks (no huge 50&#8217;s fins and heavy metal trophys glued to it, for example) and also that general electric drive demand is not monolithic (different groups of folks want different vehicle types with different e-ranges, prices and function (HEV,  PHEV. ER-EV, BEV) choices.</p>
<p>Whether it&#8217;s a Zero S electric, a Piaggio MP3 hybrid, a Honda Insight, a plug in Toyota Prius, a newGM Chevy Volt, or a Mitsubishi i-miev, they all use electric drive. And all of those are on the streets with customers today (except the Volt). Yay.</p>
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		<title>By: EVO</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-126920</link>
		<dc:creator>EVO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-126920</guid>
		<description>Do you mean the gen II and III kammback designs, not the gen I mainstream Echo style? Please be more specific.

BTW, what other difference was there between gen I and Gen II/III. Maybe electric drive able to fully move vehicle without the engine running? That, and the top best entry here, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml, in a 5 seat four door midsize family sedan with a light, open and spacious interior, fold down flat rear seats and open back for superior cargo space and flexibility might explain the explosion in popularity. 

Prius as Ninja Turtle. That&#039;s so late 1980&#039;s. Thanks for just making everyone see the Prius as a last century retro design.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you mean the gen II and III kammback designs, not the gen I mainstream Echo style? Please be more specific.</p>
<p>BTW, what other difference was there between gen I and Gen II/III. Maybe electric drive able to fully move vehicle without the engine running? That, and the top best entry here, <a href="http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml</a>, in a 5 seat four door midsize family sedan with a light, open and spacious interior, fold down flat rear seats and open back for superior cargo space and flexibility might explain the explosion in popularity. </p>
<p>Prius as Ninja Turtle. That&#8217;s so late 1980&#8217;s. Thanks for just making everyone see the Prius as a last century retro design.</p>
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		<title>By: EVO</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/15/poll-should-hybrid-cars-have-distinctive-styling/#comment-126914</link>
		<dc:creator>EVO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1759#comment-126914</guid>
		<description>That would be Blue Star, next generation beyond the S?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would be Blue Star, next generation beyond the S?</p>
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