AND 
Poll: Should Hybrid Cars Have Distinctive Styling?
As we recently heard from Chevrolet manager Ed Peper, GM is working on a dedicated non-plugin hybrid vehicle that would get high EPA fuel efficiency ratings. This is a new approach from GM’s previous strategy to offer hybrid versions of standard gas models like the Malibu, which was discontinued due to poor sales.
Indeed GM has public plans to launch 14 hybrids by 2012 and 26 by 2014. The next question is whether these dedicated hybrid or hybrids should have unique and distinctive styling as does the Prius or the Inisght. Though the Prius’ design is clearly polarizing it obviously attracts some buyers who want to display to the world that they are driving a hybrid.
Ed Welburn is GM’s VP of Design and I had a chance to ask him this question on a web chat.
Do you think hybrid vehicles should have unique designs like the Prius and not simply be versions of standard cars like the Malibu was, and are you developing new unique dedicated hybrid designs for your 2 mode hybrid system and BAS+?
That is a subject that we debate in the studios every day. I believe it can be an advantage to give a hybrid vehicle a unique asthetic. Volt (an electric vehicle) has a unique asthetic because of its aerodynamic characteristic and the creative design ideas involved. But the debate goes on…
So it looks like this may be a hot button issue in the conference rooms of General Motors’ design studios. Maybe we should help them out with a poll.
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279 Responses to “Poll: Should Hybrid Cars Have Distinctive Styling?”
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July 15th, 2009 at 6:04 am
Different styling is not a bad thing. I don’t think they should all be Prius looking but I’m game for something original. Which I never liked the comment when some say the Volt needs to be seemless so the everyday person can drive it. Spice it up. If electric is out of the norm, how about styling as well.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:09 am
The answer(s) will raise more questions.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:10 am
I would like my hybrid to state it is a hybrid, but beyond that, the “unique” style is not important. Actually, I’m holding off on buying a hybrid so i can get an electric car… the Volt of course.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:12 am
I think it should look like a normal car, or if it does have a distinctive styling it should not look close to the two cars in your picture, they aren’t looking so great. What happened to cars that get you laid? Can’t it be hybrid and good-looking in the same time?
July 15th, 2009 at 6:20 am
Alex…you made me laugh. In my case I can’t wait to trade in my Prius. My backsteat has been pretty quiet.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:20 am
They HAVE to start thinking “Game Changing” stratigies. It’s no longer so much of an option to just push the same model out with different power tranes. Someone has to start thinking out of the box here to save their skins against the competition that is coming down the pike at them in these new startup companies. They may be small, but it’s more market share that GM is losing.
Come on Bob Lutz… Wow us!
July 15th, 2009 at 6:21 am
Inside the question of different styling is the question of whether GM’s own management thinks that electric cars are special. If they do, the cars’ styling needs to show it. If GM’s management thinks the cars are simply weak-kneed regular cars, best to keep the electric drive well hidden.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:29 am
If one were to accept the premise that hybrids should have unique styling, then GM would be looking at needing to come up with 26 unique bodies for hybrids by 2014, if the company were to meet its stated goal.
Of course, this (i.e. 26 unique styles) won’t happen, nor is it happening with Toyota or Honda. In both cases, the companies launched a unique body style that managed to give the entire brand a green halo.
The Volt will do this for GM, too.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:31 am
Form follows function for me.
Cd is the main thing on the outside, but you can do a lot with two-tone colors, pinstriping, etc.
(Off to work. Extremely busy day today. Back at 8pm)
July 15th, 2009 at 6:32 am
Lyle asks Ed Peper Do you think hybrid vehicles should have unique designs like the Prius and not simply be versions of standard cars like the Malibu was?
———————————
The question might be asked about performance as well as appearance. I think GM thinks of “hybrid” as a mostly decorative model name used to seduce a certain subset of the population, not “hybrid” as something that makes a difference in how the car works. That is, I think they see hybrid as “LTZ” but definitely not “SS”.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:33 am
RWD with the storage upfront. FWD is okay especially if you drive in the snow. But, RWD is a lot more fun.
=D~
July 15th, 2009 at 6:36 am
They should look like a normal vehicle. I hate the way prius/insight/hybrid cars look. Plus the association of having a car that looks like those = tree hugging hippy….which is ok if you want to be a tree hugging hippy, but I don’t.
Call me when they put the voltec system in an Avalanche, Corvette, or a Camaro. Without any badges either – I don’t want people to know what’s under the hood.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:36 am
(click to show comment)
July 15th, 2009 at 6:38 am
I believe a distinct styling is appropriate, however, I don’t like big decals that say “Hybrid” on the side.
In the past, you could buy a standard car, like a Pontiac Grand Prix, and the base model was affordable and basic. For those who wanted the performance version, you got a bigger engine, a front spoiler, rear spoiler, bigger wheels, etc. I didn’t need a big decal on the side that said “Performance”.
I would think this could be the best approach for a hybrid. Use more aero effects, different wheel rims, a special paint scheme, and other styling cues that will let those who are informed know that this is a hybrid.
Because I’m sure many car owners want others to know they are driving a hybrid, they just don’t want to be blatant about it.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:38 am
Lets look at what worked so far:
The first Toyota Prius in the U.S. looked almost identical to the Toyota Echo. The echo was almost half the price as the Prius. The first gen Prius sold in small numbers.
The Honda Insight (the first one) was a 2 seater which limited its appeal despite its very distinctive styling.
The Second Toyota Prius sold like hotcakes and still does. It does not share any styling with any other model in the Toyota lineup.
The Honda Civic Hybrid never cought on, at least in the numbers of the Toyota Prius, same for the Honda Accord Hybrid.
The Ford Escape hybrid continues to sell about 22,000 or so units a year. Very small numbers.
The Toyota Camry Hybrid sells in very small numbers compared to the standard Camry and the Prius.
It seams to me the best way to sell hybrid is to create a unique model that is drastically different looking than any other product in the company lineup. This does 2 things. First it distinguishes the model so buyers will stand out. This is the primary reason the Prius sells. It screams, “LOOK AT ME, I”M GREEN” . Second, It allows the designers to optimize fuel economy above all else. The Toyota has an extreme aerodynamic design that makes it, frankly, funny looking. It rolls on skinny hard tires that don’t perform worth a damn compared to most other tires. The car handles poorly, has poor acceleration, and wanders all over the road on a windy day. These are not my observations but that of every road test I have ever read on the car. But it is very successful because it does one thing very well. It gets excellent fuel economy and advertises it with its looks. My advice to car makers….. Copy success.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:39 am
I don’t think that all the hybrid, E-REV, or BEV vehicles have to be completely new, but they should have some external changes to the original vehicle to make them more unique and standout from the crowd.
And hopefully, the Volt is just the first of the new vehicles that will use this drivetrain. Personally, I would be thrilled with a sporty two seater E-REV to replace my Crossfire. Or, to keep EVO happy, a sporty two seater BEV with a real range of 200 miles, but it has to have four wheels and a roof…..
But as Tag always says: LJGTVWOTR!
July 15th, 2009 at 6:58 am
The Prius and Insight look awful to me, and those are the only two hybrids that I can think of with a distinctive “hybrid style.”
Here’s a suggestion: just make them look good.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:02 am
It doesn’t matter – or, rather, it shouldn’t matter. Just get them (and, more importantly, good plug-in electric vehicles) on the roads all across America so we can begin to break our dependence on oil.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:05 am
Some should be unique, others not.
More importantly…
All should be Plug-in!
July 15th, 2009 at 7:13 am
One advise to GM, don’t make one model and have 2 options like Honda Civic, Honda Civic Hybrid is a failure because it just look like a normal Honda Civic.
Make something look good but don’t offer ICE as an option.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:13 am
Gasoline cars would also benefit from the “teardrop design to reduce drag and improve Range and MPG,” but there aren’t any because people don’t want them. If electric cars are ever going to go mainstream, there needs to be a variety of styles, just like you see with gasoline cars.
In fact, the only reason electric cars makers are so fixated on aerodynamics, is because they are trying to squeeze every ounce of range out of today’s super-expensive batteries to make the cars affordable… It’s not because of any inherent need. I’m probably going to get blasted for saying this, but I hope batteries improve to the point that we can all get back to driving muscle cars, big SUVs, and full-sized sedans again. I hate that cheap looking egg styling that you see in the Prius.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:16 am
i like what i’m hearing in this thread. a few have said it, use the paint or small parts to set it apart. you could put a certain bumper on it that you only get in the hybrid version.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Not if you can help it. Over the many years I have seen automobiles made, distinctive styling has been pretty much the norm. Let us get on with the VOLT and get off the stupid questions.
Let’s have some distinctive enery and inovation out of GM and by the way, keep the distinctive big bonuses out of the distinctive executives pockets.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:18 am
Well, Chevy has always been a style leader. Style is what elicits the passion for cars in me.
I like beautiful things.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Most cars look ugly to me. The ones I find attractive are too expensive and impractical. So I’ve just come to accept ugly cars, which means styling is kind of a non-issue.
The more important issue is aerodynamic performance. For this, why would there be any difference between the styling of the hybrid and the normal ICE? Both would benefit from a lower coefficient of drag.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:27 am
I think the Prius screams “LOOK AT ME, I’M UGLY!”
I usually avert my eyes when I see one coming down the road.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:28 am
The 2010 versions of the Prius, Insight, Honda Civic and Volt all look more or less the same. That is so in large part because they are about the same size and all aerodynamic A person who knows these cars can pick out one from another by styling details such as the tail light shapes. A person not so tuned in to cars will not be able to tell the difference.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:48 am
In deference to all the people who want to be “recognized” as driving a “green technology” car, a regulation should be passed that the color green is reserved for, well, er, green cars. Then as long as they were green everyone could see that they had an owner who thought that recognition was important (removes tongue from cheek).
Seriously, I think that the “look” should be important to function first and prestige second (or third , or fourth). Isn’t the point to normalize the whole idea of responsible cars? If that’s the case we should be looking to make more and more “normal” looking cars on EREV platforms (yes, even trucks and vans – where the ecconomies are even greater).
I need coffee – sorry.
Be well,
Tagamet
PS A GM fellow was on the business station yesterday about the Volt and they really gave him a hard time about no plugin stations being available in NYC. He again talked about “selected cities” for the roll out in 2010.
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS!
July 15th, 2009 at 7:51 am
One of the comments we repeatedly hear is that people who buy a Prius are environmentalists and want a car that says they are “green.” They say that is why the accord and Camry Hybrids haven’t sold well. That might be true for some people, but my opinion is that the majority of people that want to buy a hybrid don’t care if it is the same style as the base car. They just want it to get “much” better mileage than the standard car. That didn’t happen with the Accord or Camry. If Honda had offered a 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, and 4 cylinder hybrid that got twice the mileage of the 6 cylinder at the same price, their sales would have been through the roof.
The excitement over the Volt was originally two fold. It was a plug in hybrid, but it also was a hot looking concept car. If the car had looked as bland as the Prius, I am not sure it would have had the support to ever be developed.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:58 am
The fact is that no one answer is likely to be correct here … at least not for long. Popular culture flows this way and that way, just like hemlines and haircuts. Given this tendency, it’s probably a shrewd move to try and cover your bets as much as possible through differention and diversity of your product lines.
Regarding the minor “styling cues” ( like BillR mentions above ) – I agree with this completely. Interesting point: GM had a significant customer issue with their Pontiac G6 hardtop convertible – buyers of the car complained that most people didn’t realize they even HAD a convertible when the top was up, and this pissed them off ! I think this is called “conspicuous consumption” – like BillR noted, it doesn’t have to be blatant / “in-your-face” styling, but something fairly easy to spot, and attractive.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:05 am
The article asks,”Should hybrid vehicles have distinctive and unique designs that separate them visually from gas cars?”
I say No. But I wonder if I am reading it a different way.
I don’t want GM to back itself into another corner by having to make unique designs for hybrids. GM needs to build cars people want to buy.
I find the Prius to be very unattractive. But that’s me. If GM makes hybrids butt ugly, what is the point and who will buy them?
They should be as creative with their designs as possible.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Agree – a raised letter logo would be fine and all that is needed. More concentration should be put into making the car as efficent as possible. Show me a car with ICE and a Hybrid side by side. If I like how it looks, great. If the ICE gets 23mpg/city and the Hybrid gets 26mpg/city – forget it, but if the Hybrid gets 34mpg/city then I’ll buy it. Once people realize they have a lot of extra change in their pocket change from saving so much gas, they will buy the Hybrid, even if it costs more per month in car payments. Most people don’t add up over all cost. We are a people of ‘now’ and we pay once a month for our car but sometimes several times a week at a gas station.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Personally, I would not buy a hybrid car as an ecological status symbol.
Braggin’ rights for me come more from having something that people walk up to and say, “Wow, that’s one great looking car!” and then I could say, “Thanks. And I am getting about 300 miles to the gallon.” (Which is about what a Volt should do in my situation.)
But as a marketer, if I could determine that there is a large segment of the population who would buy a car because it has conspicuous hybrid aesthetics, it would be foolish not to address that market.
I note that, as I write this, the poll is running about 50/50 on this question, so maybe GM should do both. I find it interesting that this poll is divided about the same as our country’s political leanings. Hmmmmm.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:13 am
I dont think it needs to be a crazy outlandish design that screams “I”M ELECTRIC” (and from the future). It just needs to be recognized as a its own car. Meaning, don’t offer a non-electric version of the Volt alongside the electric version. You dont want people wondering when the see a Volt “Is that the electric version or just the ICE version”. They need to know when they recognize a Volt, its an EV, no questions. This is what makes the Prius a success in this catagory. Personally, I dont like the design, but everyone that sees one knows what it is. Its not like there’s a Prius that gets 15mpg with a V8 in it. You dont need to be within 10ft to read “HYBRID” on the side of it to know its a hybrid.
Sorry longer post than I was planning. My point is, make it a “unique” design, not an “extreme” design. The car just needs to be recognized in a lineup, that’s all.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:16 am
I don’t think that Hybrids ought to be styled distinctively. I think all cars should be more aerodynamic regardless of if they are ICE, EV or Hybrid. Personally, I think that other styling is a waste of time and fuel. Give me an EREV in the shape of Buckminster Fuller’s Dymaxion Car or an Aptera.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:21 am
True. I know lots of ppl who can’t tell the differnce between a Firebird, Camaro, or Corvette, untill they can read the words on it. It just depends what you are into. (Dont ask me which fork i’m suppose to use for my salad)
July 15th, 2009 at 8:23 am
The Telsa S has a very low Cd and doesnt look like a Prius. I think there’s more options than you think.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:28 am
Even though I voted No (my personal answer), what I really wanted to answer was “Sometimes”. I think since GM is coming out with so many hybrids, there is room to satisfy both markets of people. The results (as of the time I responded) were 52% Yes, 45% No; which indicate to me that GM needs to do both.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:33 am
OT, but NZDAVID, are you ok? Major earthquake down there.
Hope you are well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
July 15th, 2009 at 8:34 am
I voted no because I believe all vehicles with sport something like BAS+
in the very near future. High mileage vehicles (45 MPG+) are distinctive because a certain shape works best to lower drag.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:36 am
I agree that GM should think of hybrids as Super Sports models! Hybrids should be conceived and styled to be distinctive in both performance & appearance ….and as Ed Welburn is quoted above, to have “a unique asthetic because of its aerodynamic characteristic and the creative design ideas involved”.
I’d suggest GM (Ed Welburn) get all his studio chiefs & leading stylists together and give them photos of Tesla’s Model S sedan (detailed shots of the exterior and interior) as an excellent example of both a unique esthetic & creative design. Example photos are in this link….
http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/tesla-model-s-1/
July 15th, 2009 at 8:45 am
You get more from regeneration with front drive (as the front wheels do most of the braking due to the nose pitching down as well as increased weight — the latter may not be relevant due to the more distributed weight in a car with a large battery).
That’s not to say that you couldn’t have both: A high-gear rear end, a low gear front drive (perhaps in-wheel motor/generators) and a controller that gradually shifts power between them with speed.
I’ve been told that RWD offers better handling at highway speeds, but lack the personal experience to confirm this.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Unfortunately, distinctive can mean anything. The Volt looks far more conventionally styled than the EV1 and the Fisker Karma, Tesla Roadster and Tesla Model S are indistinguishable from ICE vehicles.
The Aptera Type 1e is radical looking in a Bauhaus way – form follows function, which is OK from a design standpoint. There are no superfluous shapes or appendages, so given its performance and price, it will succeed.
Let’s all admit how bad the EV1 looks next to the vehicles I listed.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Hey, I’m with you there.
Lutz, in a web chat, was quoted on the Chevy Volt Facebook page as saying “By the way, you should know that all of us who have driven the Volt view it as a thrilling performance car, and you can easily burn rubber with it…without burning any gas!”.
http://www.facebook.com/chevroletvolt
Entry dated Mon, July 13, 2009.
And, I liked sitting higher when I had my GMC Jimmy. I’d love to have an EREV version.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:56 am
From the article
Do you think hybrid vehicles should have unique designs like the Prius…?
Ed Welburn: “… I believe it can be an advantage to give a hybrid vehicle a unique asthetic. Volt (an electric vehicle) has a unique asthetic because of its aerodynamic characteristic and the creative design ideas involved. ”
—————————-
Clearly either he didn’t understand the question, or he has no concept of what a unique asthetic look is…because the Volt couldn’t have more ‘hum-drum’ styling than it does now if they tried, it is going to be the boringest/plainest car in their 2011 model lineup (or whenever the Aveo/Wave gets canned, lol).
If ever a car needed a ‘full body wrap’ with 24 inch letters saying “Electric Car” to let people know what it was…then this is it.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:56 am
The Tesla S beats the crap out of the Volt in the looks department. The Volt reminds me of an old Pontiac.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Exactly my thinking too.
Unique design so there is no confusion about what the car is.
Mid size Voltec Chevy Bel Air with an ‘evolved’ 55′ look… oooooo
(maybe that’s just me though)
July 15th, 2009 at 9:07 am
LOL!
guess we need a Voltec station wagon then!
with curtains….
July 15th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Maybe for the 10th anniversary of the Volt release, they could field a Volt that looks like the concept and exceeds the “original” Volt’s performance….. comfortably under $30,000 (evil grin).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS
July 15th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Nice post kdawg,
I think you are right about the styling not having to be the ‘batmobile’ if you are driving a electric car and/or a hybrid. Something distinguishable as unique is more than enough, but (you knew there was a but coming) only if that hybrid/electric vehicle has/brings value.
What I mean is, (when looking at hybrids for example), the Prius looks like a nerd’s shoe, it has nothing going for it, but mechancially it is the ‘bee’s knees,’ or the ‘cat’s whiskers’ if you will (and happened to live in the late 1920s). The Prius has fundamental properties (50MPG+, eco-green cred) that make it a winner to the car buying public, and design is not one of them. As long as you can identify it easily as its own product, then job done.
However, if another manufacturer puts out a product that is not in the same league as the Prius, but is intending to compete against it, they can make it unique…but are probably just throwing away R&D dollars. Design is secondary in this market (at least it is atm).
Basically, I guess I am saying, if you have a product that you feel can stand on its own and compete on a fundamental basis in the hybrid segment (and eventually the electric segment) then it needs to have its own ‘look,’ to be unique…but if you look at the ending benchmarks and the price you are going to sell it for, and it falls short, don’t bother.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Based on the recent history of hybrid sales, GM had better make the styling unique.
On the other hand, having more unique model lines is more expensive to support.
It shouldn’t be necessary to make hybrids look unique, but at the present time it clearly is. Practicality gets you nothing if the public doesn’t buy it.
I’m tempted to say ‘turn the question around’: Have dedicated, unique full gasser cars (preferably somewhat ugly), and make the rest good looking hybrids. Judging from the styling in some specific Prius model years, people have had the idea that you have to ’suffer publicly’ in order to ‘make a difference.’ I think this is at least part of the ‘look at me, I’m green’ philosophy. I say, reward the behavior that you want.
Or better yet, make them all hybrids and eliminate comparison issues (except to other manufacturers’ cars!).
July 15th, 2009 at 9:24 am
You have a definate point there.
I think that the prius (like the look or not) absolutely makes it clear that it’s driver is trying to “save the planet”.
I think that message sells as many cars as the actual savings (real or imagined)
People often buy a car to make a statement.
Dudley Moore pointed that out in a movie years ago…
“Buy a Jaguar, get a hand job”
This ABSOLUTELY rings true!
That which motivates one to buy a Camaro or Ferrari is not the same message as the person who buys a prius or yes even the Volt.
The car NEEDS to be distinctive.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:27 am
The last time I worried about the looks of cars I was in High School and bell bottom pants were the rage
.. if the Volt is the Future I want to see more fins.. and big ones.
Now, this is a car!
http://www.radrides.com/saltflats.php
July 15th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Come now Tag…
British Racing green is the ONLY proper colour for a smoky old Jag… (I can’t help it, I absolutely love old Jag’s… it’s a sickness!)
July 15th, 2009 at 9:31 am
The need for higher efficiency will dictate design. A welcome change.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:32 am
The Tesla Roadster, Tesla Model S, and Fisker Karma, and Aptera all look great.
The Tesla cars are all electric, so they’re not practical for me. I will never buy a BEV.
The Fisker Karma is too expensive.
Aptera has an EREV version for $30K, but with only 3 wheels, I don’t think this will work very well in the snow. If I lived in California, or some other place with no snow, I would seriously consider the Aptera.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:35 am
I believe you are in the minority on that one.
Most people just need a car to do their day to day ’stuff’ without complication. Many folks will reject ‘weird’ cars outright.
As interesting as the Aptera is, it remains weird.
Most people will say hey that’s cool, or it’s spacey and then they’ll go buy something ‘normal’ looking.
THAT is where the Volt comes in.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Behold the Mercedes Benz Bionic Car:
http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2008/03/01-mercedes-benz-bionic-car-at-the-moma/
“With a drag coefficient (cd figure) of 0.19, the Mercedes-Benz bionic car is one of the world’s most aerodynamic compact cars in its class. Today, this figure still stands as a benchmark for the aerodynamic optimization of car bodies.”
July 15th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Aptera is an excellent example of what I want for an electric vehicle. A beautiful design that definitely follows its function. The Aptera is also just a trike and classified as a motorcycle, not exactly a main stream vehicle. What makes the Aptera so interesting is that it essentially looks like a light sport aircraft fuselage with out tail feathers & wings.
What makes the Prius so ugly is the tall cabin, tiny wheels, and stage coach profile. The Prius is easily the ugliest car on the road, what makes it so attractive to certain individuals is the vehicle’s smug level. Sure they could have spent less to get similar mileage with a diesel Jetta/Golf but they wanted to show others that they “care” about the environment. The new freaky people/nature Prius commercials are an excellent example of how Toyota hawks it’s wares to the masses. Sure people are buying a hideous vehicle but the “green” perception is much more valuable. I myself can’t imagine buying a car that is obviously repulsive but I buy it anyway because I care what other people think of my vehicle.
As for the poll, Yes GM should build electric vehicles that stand out. Should GM build an electric car that mirrors the Prius/Insight franchise, certainly not! Look to Speed Week at Bonneville for inspiration, not your Japanese competition.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:41 am
So just throw a turbine on the hood and a battery in the trunk and you’re great to go. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
July 15th, 2009 at 9:42 am
AWD would be reasonably easy to add in the future.
The 2012 Voltback?
July 15th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Troy and company make some beauties!
Maybe That is an idea… get some of these top designers, Troy, Foose, etc… to offer styling input.
I’m still pulling for my Volt SuperSpark!
July 15th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Although they are pointed at completely different markets you do have a point.
The “S” is going to compete with the MB E class and the BMW 5 series (both with fantastic diesel options) rather than the Volt though.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Exactly. Note also that the EV-1 had a cd of .19, and we should not leave out the appliance “look” of the original Honda Insight.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:53 am
I think they should do both. They should have one distinctive looking car. And they should make a hybrid version of the Camaro. And probably the Corvette while they’re at it…
July 15th, 2009 at 9:53 am
I’m sorry, the Aptera is a sperm bubble on wheels. It screams pocket protector lame. So no, I don’t think the EV-1 looks worse than that. I have to disagree, I believe the Aptera will be a sales failure. There just aren’t enough people out there with that kind of cash willing to ride around in an angry tadpole.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Tag said:
“In deference to all the people who want to be “recognized” as driving a “green technology” car, a regulation should be passed that the color green is reserved for, well, er, green cars. ”
—————–
“I want everyone to remember *why* they need us!”
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/img/pto_OS_characters_06.jpg
/couldn’t resist
(just funnin’ with you Tag)
July 15th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Gm + distinctive styling = Aztek
Be careful what you ask for.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:00 am
The Volts driving experience needs to be very similar to a conventional car.
If a ‘normal’ (meaning non-enthusiast) driver can’t just get in, turn the key, put it in drive and go… the car will fail because people will not buy it.
The body structure and looks need to be attractive, efficent, and user friendly. I think a unique look is important to make it stand out in a rather crowded car market.
Yes I think a hopped up 300+ hp Voltec Camaro would be fantastic! but first we need the mainstream Volt to succeed.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Larry, the only stupid question is the one not asked, right?
July 15th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I agree that different styling isn’t a bad thing. But I don’t think it’s necessary either.
What the hybrid needs is best-in-class mileage. That probably means roughly 50+mpg for a small car, 40+mpg for a mid-sized car, and 36+mpg for everything else.
Speaking for myself, I can say that if it’s likely that I’m going to eat the hybrid premium, then I’m buying great MPG numbers. Just like that extra horsepower doesn’t make financial sense for those Camaro buyers, but they go for it anyway — this is the same deal, but with the knobs set on “efficient”. The MPG numbers may make the decision to buy the car, but in order to sell me another one in 5-10 years, the car also needs to be reliable and have useful people/cargo space inside. A grownup-sized hatckback with folding rear seats is surprisingly good this way.
When the hybrid premium will dependably save the buyer money, then looks won’t really matter. Fleet customers and households that think ahead will be lining up for them.
(P.S. I’m continually amazed that police cars, taxis, and other fleet vehicles that spend a lot of time idling and require a lot of auxiliary power (like a small truck-crane that was helping to replace a flat roof near my office) aren’t already hybrids.)
July 15th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Heh heh!
I admit to being ‘conflicted’ on this point, I just love all the moving oily bits in an old Jag straight 6…
If one ‘did’ find an e-type with a dead driveline it sure would make a pretty electric though…
(with the little generator in the trunk of course…)
July 15th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Herm, re:
http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2008/03/01-mercedes-benz-bionic-car-at-the-moma/
If I ever have to drive something that looks like that I’m going to get a donkey to get to work.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Sidenote to everyone holding shares of ‘old GM’
Your ticker/name has changed today after being halted on friday because of ‘new GM’ coming into existence. They are now “Motors Liquidation Co”.
Apparently, the ‘enthusiasm’ for old GM left with the name, it is trading off about 50% today. Currently off .52 to .63 (-45%)
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=MTLQQ.PK
I kind of like the name ‘Motors Liquidation Co.’ maybe they should have stuck with that…heck it seems to work for anyone selling rugs, furniture or oil paintings
July 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Basically, no. The Prius and Insight copy look that way because they a study in efficient packaging with the confines of the wind tunnel. In other words, put as much people and stuff into the smallest box possible that still slips through the wind with ease. This negates a lot of styling features, shapes and forms that could get you laid.
So this is why I chose “yes” to the poll. If the point of building a hybrid is to get as high mileage as you can for a certain mission statement, then by that definition the car must look different than the more typical sedan. This is why the Fusion, Camry, Altima, etc. sedan hybrids don’t get mileage as good as the Prius.
On the other hand, if the purpose is to just improve the mileage on a standard sedan, then the hybrid version can’t look much different. The point here is that these types of buyers want to preserve the “traditional” look but get better mileage. So this is why you find manufacturers doing both.
The poll really needed a “both” option. Because in this market, that is what manufactures need. The purpose built hybrid is a growing and important niche market and then there is also demand for traditional sedans with hybrid drive. GM needs to do both.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Remember that the Prius has the ridiculous shifter that looks like a birth defect. People got used to it. Even the new generation has the same thing.
I don’t really see the point of it though. So Prius can feel as though they’re smarter than average, since they can figure out how to drive it?
July 15th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Hey, they were perfect….to be in “Judge Dredd”. And, I think now is the perfect time for Aztek Gen 2.0 to be introduced:
“New ‘Judge Dredd’ Movie Coming”
http://www.cinematical.com/2008/12/21/new-judge-dredd-movie-coming/
/the perfect tie-in
July 15th, 2009 at 10:15 am
I’m totally on board with the love of a Jaguar and all the oily bits and pieces. Maybe we could do a reverse spin on the Prius PV collector running the fan. The Jag’s ICE could also power the radio. Wait, er, it already does. So doesn’t that make a Jag a Green vehicle?
Sorry, too much Sotomayer hearings…
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
July 15th, 2009 at 10:15 am
You may just have hit the nail on the head.
I DO think that you need to have unique models like the Volt, but I think that ’styled’ models can co-exist.
I like the idea of a strong hybrid/Voltec Colorado pickup ‘work truck’ at a reasonable price.
There used to be S10 pickups everywhere because they were cheap to buy and easy to live with.
On a model like this I think a couple “I’m green” stickers would be sufficient.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Holy crap! It’s a tall first gen honda insight!
July 15th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I’ve observed that it really depends on with whom you’re trying to get laid as to what kind of car you require to help your case…
I do agree with VOLTinME (ouch!) that a wagon would have practical benefits — both for the act, and also the year after (in case someone gets pregnant).
July 15th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Chevy Orlando uses the same platform as the Cruze and Volt:
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/orlando.do
Add shag rug & velvet curtains – you’re all set.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Sure, but the performance (defined as MPG for a hybrid buyer) really does need to be there. Putting a Type R sticker and aftermarket shocks on a Caviler doesn’t make it a contender at the autocross meet, any more than putting a hybrid badge on the Malibu made it a green car.
Disclaimer: One of my friends actually did turn a J-Body into a performance car for autocross, but it took him thousands of dollars and several years to do it.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Either the smaller or left most fork is for the salad…
July 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Well… If the Volt is the plainest car in the Chevy lineup then things look GREAT for the future!
Absolutely I’d like to see a midsize “S” competitor come out of the styling department.
GM! Blow our socks off! PLEASE!
I MUCH prefer the production Volt over the concept.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:25 am
I agree, and wonder why GM Chevy could not come up with something more like the S in physical design?
July 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am
I chose yes for what I would call value anxiety. If a car buyer is looking at a hybrid car and likes it, and there is an identical non hybrid that costs less, sometimes a lot less, value anxiety says…
Hey car buyer don’t be a sucker, get the cheaper one, it looks the same, drives the same and costs thousands less. You can buy a lot of gas with that money and have a smaller car payment too.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am
The opel flextreme concept is a good example for future look. Aztek was also futuristic looking ( GM didn’t have enough USP to sell that product – like a hybrid train, published drag coaffs , green image,high mpg etc) . Aptera, prius etc shares the same looks.
Future is all about efficiency optimized designs than grill based designs. It should be like a grill can be fixed without dropping the efficiency.
It doesn’t mean that all cars should look same – purpose also plays a big role.
So its like Theme, Purpose, comfort, efficient, class, brand etc ( there will be more params but brand comes only last – I don’t need to be proud that i brought a x company car, i will be proud for i brought a car which suites my purpose and my style than car company style).
July 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am
I know many ‘normal’ folks who rented a Prius and HATED the thing.
One took it back and asked for a real car.
To go mainstream it has to feel mainstream.
This will leave some enthusiast types unhappy, but isn’t the real goal to get off as much oil as possible?
For this to happen Mary-Jane or Billy-Bob (Pat-Q-Public) have to feel absolutely comfortable driving the car.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am
I think the Aztek looks good. Yellow with black is the best color combo. Plenty of room for batteries. A great vehicle to convert to EV.
Just checked the resale value. An Aztek in average condition with 150,000 miles will trade for $1700 and sell for $3000. Add the battery and conversion brackets. $15,000 or so?
=D~
July 15th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Dave’s shaggin’ wagon…
July 15th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Exactly, who wants to drive a fish down the road?
July 15th, 2009 at 10:33 am
LOL!
July 15th, 2009 at 10:34 am
No.
Mr. WindTunnel will most likely dictate the “Style”.
It did for the Volt drastically, the Prius and Insight as well as EV-1.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:34 am
More than this….
GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said despite numerous warnings and statements from GM that the stock was likely worthless, GMGMQ continued to climb.
“We were concerned, Motors Liquidation was concerned, I think the regulator was concerned that people were trading the stock not understanding what it was,” Wilkinson said.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Old-GM-shares-drop-in-value-apf-3989992891.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=
=D~
July 15th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Gonna try and post something…
Might get modded.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:37 am
REPORT: Tata Nano passes European crash testing
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/15/report-tata-nano-passes-european-crash-testing/
Tata, isn’t that a strippers car?????
July 15th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Apparently, the ‘enthusiasm’ for old GM left with the name, it is trading off about 50% today. Currently off .52 to .63 (-45%)
________________________
Although hope springs eternal, when traveling on the river of de-nial finally loses it’s luster, a glimmer from the dawning rays of reality will begin to dampen the remaining enthusiasm.
Translation: Let it go people, what aggregate value could be left in the pieces “even GM doesn’t want” in the middle of the carpocalypse?
July 15th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Design will certainly be unable to escape the need for higher efficiency.
I wonder if advanced computational fluid dynamics can ‘come to the rescue’ with shapes that are aesthetically pleasing for the motoring public, but also offer low drag.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Hey statik, you lucky dogs up there….
REPORT: Ontario announces incentives for plug-in vehicles, up to $10K
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/15/report-ontario-announces-incentives-for-plug-in-vehicles-up-to/
July 15th, 2009 at 10:41 am
“I kind of like the name ‘Motors Liquidation Co.’ maybe they should have stuck with that…heck it seems to work for anyone selling rugs, furniture or oil paintings.”
All they need is annoying, loud radio commercials.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Absolutely.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am
I’m of two minds …
For cars, I think it’s important that they be unique and recognizable. They don’t have to be anything wild, just a distinct model. If they are the same as other ICE vehicles, that really encourages you to do the $$ math to see if you’re saving by switching … and you won’t. If you’re going to pay a premium, don’t you want something different?
However, for SUVs and maybe small trucks, I wouldn’t care as much about having a distinct model. There I’m just looking for the better gas mileage, and here where I live, the ability to drive in High Occupancy lanes without a passenger.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am
LOL!
Good morning Cap’n!
July 15th, 2009 at 10:50 am
There’s a really dangerous joke floating around somewhere in that last line …
July 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am
If the form serves the function then yes. But I don’t think there has to be a “hybrid look” template like the Insight and Prius seem to follow.
An example of what I think is a cool hybrid is the Honda CR-Z, which is now definitely set to come out in 2010. That is just a cool looking car, hybrid or no. Honda will make a killing with that car.
http://automobiles.honda.com/cr-z/
July 15th, 2009 at 10:57 am
COOL!…
Now I just have to get our Premier to do the same in Alberta!
Ain’t holding my breath though!
July 15th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Way back some time ago I voiced my disdain for the geniuses that took the amazing concept Volt, inside and out and made a much more mundane 40K$ machine that maybe the Dinette Set public would buy. I was run over and then backed over by the thunderous admonishment that the concept was not aerodynamic enough… and that “WE” have discussed this and “WE” NOT AMUSED with this tread worn topic anymore… move along, nothing to see here… Well, I think Lyle has some misgivings about the way the Volt has shaped up, so to speak and thus his sideshot musings on hy-brids. Very witty Lyle!
The Volt is not your average point A to point B albeit 40 miles electric only machine. MuddyRoverRob is right on the mark and seems rather, ah, lonely, LOL!, about the image being important.
And about the projected image: I say, Al GORTheads, read on…
The sanctimonious religious chorus of the Save the Planet crowd has long since grown shrill and discordant, for me at least. Global warming has transmogrified it’s tune due to curious growing glaciers… into curiouser, Global Climate Change and The Geico Cavemen must have caused the last Ice Age to go away with global warming. I do NOT want to drive something that has to scream as a, rolling bumper sticker, “Think Globally…” and pay 40K bizillion for the rare privilege! I simply want a sexy option to giving my hard earned dollars to something other than buying costly swimming pools of gasoline and get some nice pretty smiles too! My fiance would frown on Dudley Moore’s, ah, attention.
Best Regards! Higgins
PS: I am waiting any day for the Lads to arrive form China.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Yup.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Lie to other people but don’t lie to yourself.
The critics of the Prius want to dismiss the success of the Prius as being based on something superficial like the looks alone. The truth is just the opposite. The Prius is much much more than just its looks, much much more than just the hybrid technology. This much much more is why the Prius is really good deal for the people who brought one and why it has such a high satisfaction rating. This much much more is also what gets left behind in the HSD Camry and why it doesn’t sell as well. When Toyota considered making the Prius its own brand this much much more was also going to be left out and therefore the Prius brand would have been a flop.
This much much more comes from the fact the Prius wasn’t originally about hybrid technology alone. The Prius was a project; a learn-from-real-world-experimentation project. Toyota wanted to fix problems in the current automobiles with technology from the near future. All of this technology was meant to be just over the horizon. Toyota was hoping to learn from the manufacturing, marketing, and real world usage so they would be ready when the future comes.
Among some of this much much more is: The speedometer being moved to the center console, The gear shift being moved off the steering column, The foot space in front seat being kept clear so the driver can slide over and get out the other side, The seats being made easy to take apart for recycling. The Prius has had a special HC trap, a thermos to store the hot radiator fluid, a bladder in the gas tank. Almost everything I have listed here no longer exists in the current Prius and therefore should be considered failed experiments. But they did exist and they have nothing to do with hybrid technology and nothing to do with looks.
So how can failed experiments be the key the Prius success? Some people like the technology itself and can’t buy it anywhere else. Some people like idea of the honest attempt; they are voting for the better future even if it doesn’t exist yet. Airplanes and tanks have had bladders for decades; there is something cool about have such extreme tech. The Prius sells to the well educated working class; there’s something cool about knowing why tanks and planes have bladders and having an excuse to explain it.
The successful experiments are obvious because they get used outside the Prius. The looks of the original 1990’s Prius was common place in 2003. Lots of small car shared it. It was cutting edge when the Prius was first designed. We are now five years after the 2004 redesign and the look is still fairly unique. This makes the current look a failure. The truth is the looks of the Prius is not a selling point. People buy the Prius in spite of what it looks like not because of it.
It is okay to lie to other people. If you don’t like Toyota or the Prius says anything you can think of to lead them away from buying. But don’t lie to yourself. Don’t encourage GM to make yet another marketing mistake by believing the Prius is only successful because of its looks.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:00 am
If GM still hasn’t answered this question then they need to fire their marketing people and start over. It’s not a difficult question.
The first issue is whether you have have a break through technology like the Prius or the Volt which you want to market in a halo vehicle. If you do then obviously you need a unique — but not unconventional — design.
The calculus becomes more complex if you’re looking at a technology which boots mileage but isn’t break-through. Then it depends on the cost of the hybrid technology and the cost of gas. If the costs are such that the price of adding the technology will justify a relatively quick payback, as in a year or at most two, then offering it as an option to a standard base vehicle will work just fine. But if it won’t, then you need a unique design if you’re going to successfully market it.
This is just very basic. People will pay more for two reasons: one is to impress others; the other is to get conveniences for their own use. Consequently, if the costs of the hybrid technology are higher than would be justified by the savings on gasoline, then you had better find a way to make the technology part of the exoskeleton so that the customer can send a message to others.
The reason the hybrid Escalade is such a joke is that GM put a fuel saving technology in a vehicle that screams “Look at me, I’m wealthy and can buy gasoline by the barrel”. Now if the hybrid technology had been priced so it made financial sense to buy the hybrid option, everyone would have applauded. But it wasn’t so everyone laughed.
FWIW the decision to roll out hybrid technology in the Escalade strikes me as what you get out of an insular and turgid bureaucracy that is totally self-absorbed and out of touch with customers. I’d say it was a good example of why the Auto Task Force has said that what GM needs more than anything else is a culture shift.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Back to #12 and the image issue that MuddyRobRover had to say with his non too lonely pal Dudley Moore and something for the Al GORTheads and not wanting to drive a rolling Earth First bumpersticker with 4 wheels.———-Higgins
July 15th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Yes. Styling has always been an important factor for owners to express themselves through their automobile. Hybrid owners are no different – they want the world to know that they are doing their part to help save the planet; to reduce dependency on foreign oil; etc. etc.
So, it is no surprise that Toyota Prius far outsold the Honda Civic hybrid thanks in large part to its distinctive styling. The Civic hybrid looked no different from a standard ICE Civic. No snob appeal there.
Now, Honda has figured this out as demonstrated by their new hybrid model. Unfortunately however, they chose to use the Pontiac Aztek as an inspiration for its looks.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:09 am
That’s what also makes it useful. It has great interior room. With the back seats folded down, it can carry a surprising volume of stuff, and also reasonably bulky objects like flat-pack furniture. It’s much harder to load that kind of thing into a sedan. With the back seats up, the back seats are reasonably comfortable for two adults when making a trip across town.
There’s no accounting for taste, and I kind of like the looks of the Prius. But that’s partly because I really wish I had a Star Trek shuttlecraft parked in my driveway. Your tastes appear to be different.
I drive a Prius, but it’s not because I want to make a statement. It’s because it’s a useful car with great mileage, excellent maintenance-record, and a lot more utility than you would normally extract from a vehicle of that size.
You’re also overlooking the geek-factor. The Prius is a technological tour de force, and those of us who, for instance, work in IT for a living like that kind of thing.
And, yes, using less gasoline is better for the environment and makes it more likely that my friends will get home from Iraq sooner rather than later. But there are no bumper stickers on the Prius I drove to work this morning, because we aren’t trying to make any statements.
I owned a 2001 VW Getta GLS TDI for a year. It was a beautiful car, and I loved it — great ride, great torque, interesting to work on, and there are reasonably-priced enthusiast-level scantools and a great amount of enthusiast-information on sites like http://www.tdiclub.com . But I spent over $5k on maintenance during the year I owned it, due to a string of bad transmission rebuilds. I finally sold it when I no longer did a lot of highway driving.
My girlfriend (now fiancee) is the one who had the Prius, and I’ve helped her maintain it for the last 70k miles, and I drive it frequently (it’s our household’s main daily-driver). So far, we’ve spent a total of about $75 for one of those HID light bulbs, and also put a set of tires (a wear item) on it.
Then you shouldn’t buy a Prius! Nobody in their right mind thinks that everyone should drive a Prius — it’s a small car with funky looks and a non-sporty ride. Also, it’s a household transportation appliance, and not everyone wants that out of their car. But this is what I want out of a car now, so it’s a perfect match for my needs.
Remember, Prius drivers are saving gas for you to burn in whatever car you choose to drive, so there’s no need to be a dick about this.
I also think the Aptera is a neat vehicle, and I’m a private pilot so I really appreciate their aviation-style looks. But, alas, it has two seats and limited cargo capacity, so it may only meet the same needs as the 2005 Kawasaki Vulcan that I used to own. I’m still looking forward to drooling over the first one that I see in-person.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:10 am
It’s a good day, I get to voice my opinion AND get to talk about Jaguars!
Of course Gen1 Volts will have most (OK, all and then some) of the fuel cost savings taken out by the price, later Generations will show 150 – 200 MPG average fuel consumption (for city folks anyway) and people will buy FOR the cost savings.
Much like the now cost reduced Prius does now.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:11 am
GM’s own study shows that fuel efficiency is in….no matter what the car looks like. Instead of spending money on great looks and styling…maybe one could purchase a personality.
http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/environment/news/2008/challenge_050808.jsp
“-Fuel- efficient — The new chick magnet? Close to nine in 10 women (88 percent) say they’d rather chat up someone with the latest fuel-efficient car versus the latest sports car.
-How to win friends and influence people. Eighty percent of American car buyers would find someone with the latest model fuel-efficient car more interesting to talk to at a party than someone with the latest model sports car.
-Not green? That’s a fashion don’t. More than four out of 10 (45 percent) 18-43 year-olds say it’s a fashion faux-pas nowadays to have a car that is not green or environmentally friendly.
-Project roadway. More than seven in 10 (73 percent) car buyers say if there were a reality TV show like “Project Runway” that was not about fashion design, but instead about designing the best-looking fuel-efficient and emissions-free car, they’d definitely watch.”
Personally, I could care less how a car looks on the outside…duh, I’ll be sitting on the inside. Nor do I care what others think about my ride.
The solution to GM’s problem is simple (to say): build quality, build efficient, build inexpensive. Primarily, you’ll need to have a very good econobox to start: if your ‘worst product’ is efficient, reliable and cheap, it only makes everything above that level look even better, and therefore, worth the extra $$$. How much can you really do with the looks of a container on 4 wheels? Why is it that important?
July 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Dav8tor,
With all due respect, if you put an EV1 next to an Aptera, you will see the EV1 is oddly proportioned, making it dorkier looking. The Aptera looks like a small airplane sans wings.
I personally want a conventional looking vehicle, as I requie its utility. I am not a hyper-miling commuter.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Agreed – Lyle needs a “both” option on the poll – that’s why I could not cast a vote on this poll.
As for design, the smaller, fuel efficient models are designed using aerodynamics, out of necessity. For larger hybrids aimed at older car buyers, they can stick to tried-and true designs. I would like to see a Pontiac Bonneville-sized hybrid – one where both front seat passengers have enough elbow room, without elbowing each other.
Sure, it wouldn’t get 50+ MPG, but any hybrid purchased is one less ICE driven car purchased. We need to save gas where we can, and the way to do that is to know your customer. Sell them what they want, just in a hybrid version. Make them confortable in a hybrid, then worry about tweaking the MPG rating when battery tech improves the battery range.
That’s my opinion. That, and $4.00, will get you a latte at Starbucks:)
July 15th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Cover those TaTa’s!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
July 15th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Yes indeed, a goode day! Love Jags myself as if I would not. LOL!
And agree that this is just the start, silent at that but when at the market picking produce there is a certain attraction to product that is not limp or dull. I recall a particular grocery scene in the movie Animal House. My guess is that there is a future out there for something other than the egg shaped autocar.
Regards again.———Higgins
July 15th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Everybody cares about the environment in a survey.
When it comes down to brass tacks and signing the purchase agreement on a car (which is a large investment for most). I’m willing to bet most people will think twice about buying an unattractive car if there is a good looking alternative.
Granted the 5 door hatch bodystyle has never been the most ’sexy’ one available, but it is one of the most practical. I think the Volt is a better than average looking car of this style.
If you don’t care about the look of your investments EcoGeek that’s fine but most of us do.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Man that looks like a refined 2dr Insight. If it were a BEV with 100MPC or 75MPC that can rip off the line, I’d take one.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:26 am
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090708/electric_ontario_090714/20090715?s_name=Autos
Hers is a link for Canadians who want to go eletric. The Ont goverment will pay up to 10000 for the purchase of an eletric car.
The comments after the story shows that alot of people don’t understand the tech. yet
July 15th, 2009 at 11:27 am
This gets to the heart of the question and one of my largest beefs against car makers – Why can’t you have it all? A beautiful car with you choice of drivetrains. Just because I want fuel efficiency doesn’t mean I want to drive an ugly or no options car.
Make the best (Camaro-Malibu-Equinox) with a voltec option – just like a V-8 premium price – I would pay for extra for the Voltec price on a beautiful car. ( this could also reduce development costs)
July 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am
If the design attracts buyers, it should not matter if it is ICE, Hybrid, Electric or other.
The electrification of the car is the future — which means that at some point we should have Hybrid/VOLTEC SUVs, Pick Ups, and sports cars — having distinctive styling is a waste of effort if you already have a winner.
The Malibu Hybrid failed not because it had the same styling of the Malibu, but because the MPG was so similar to the ICE that the payback for the additional cost was measured in decades.
Like Toyota — who puts the HSD into anything that makes sense, Chevy and others should focus on marketing the advanced technology and then put it into vehicles that are already winners.
At some point in the future I would expect a VOLTEC option for ANY car in the GM stable. Can you imagine a VOLTEC Camaro — with next gen batteries or ULTRACAPS that perform as well as a V8 without burning a drop of gas??? That is where we need to go.
As someone who is 6′4″ and over 250 lbs — I don’t want to have to squeeze myself into a subcompact to realize the future. Give me a full-size VOLTEC equipped vehicle with 20 miles all battery range and 35 miles to the gallon in ICE mode and I’d still buy it. I’d just like to have the option.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:32 am
An excellent response!
I’m going Volt, but I enjoyed and appreciate your comments!
(Many of which will apply to the volt as well! Although I’m hoping for a sporty-ish ride with my Volt.)
Thanks Luke!
July 15th, 2009 at 11:32 am
“the purchase of an eletric car.”
I thought they meant “Plug-in cars”?
Se my previous post #40
July 15th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Gotta agree… if it’s not special certainly don’t make it look special. (They made the right call on the Malibu Hybrid styling.)
July 15th, 2009 at 11:42 am
There is too much credit given to the wind tunnel. This is BS. There are many ways to lower the drag and you can still have many distinctive featrues. Formula 1 cars are aerodynamic. NASCAR bodies are aerodynamic. A corvette is aerodynamic. All of these are different looking. There are many ways to cheat the wind.
A truely aerodynamic shape would not have room for people or cargo. It would be a minial tear drop around the engine.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am
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July 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am
A seemingly easy and reletively easy fix to this would be to crank out a bunch of dual mode silverado work trucks in the high 20’s or low 30’s.
It’s basically the same platform as the Tahoe/Escalade.
Make the hybrid option sensible to the customer and they will buy them.
I think they used the top of the line trucks at first because the tech is/was so expensive, it’s out there, it works, now cost reduce it and get it out in quantity.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Certainly!
I still see the Volt being $28k usd in just a few years and there will be a midsize Voltec (Nova?, Bel Air?) in the mid $30’s. That one could look very “S” like.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Personaly I would like to see more Drive trains in a car. What I mean is it would be great if people had a choice an ICE or a hybrid or 10 mile Plug in Hybrid or voltec. Each have it’s own price. This would work good in SUVs and trucks not so much in small cars.
If you are all about towing and mostly hwy driving take the ICE. If you tow on the weekend but drive little during the week take the 10 mile Plug in, if you drive mostly in the city and some longer trips go for the Voltec.
I did not include pure electric because I don’t think they are a good choice.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
The issue isn’t the distinctive styling. The issue is the incremental cost of the hybrid version vs. the non-hybrid version. Customers are being asked to pony up thousands of dollars on hybrid versions and the payback timeframe is often up to 10 years. Longer than they’ll likely own the car. To the extent that other aspects of a car have to be changed to bring the cost down to be comparable to a “regular” car, then “distinctive styling” is just a side affect — not the issue itself. Many people think the dedicated hybrid designs are somewhat ugly (Toyota Prius comes to mind, of course) so the styling is not what’s making it successful. The price of the Prius is comparable to other “mid-size” cars — that’s what makes it successful.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Isn’t that a Hurse?
July 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
First there was the typewriter, then the electric typewriter, then just the typewriter again and the electric was assumed. First there was the automobile, then the electric automobile, then it will just be the automobile again and the electric will be assumed. Mainstream vehicles should have mainstream design and ultimately the drive train will no longer matter and the electric will be assumed.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I voted “NO” because IMO there will be no NON-electric/hybrid vehicles in a few years. All cars should be designed with fuel efficiency and aerodynamic issues in the forefront so there could be little difference in styling between a BEV or hybrid or old-style gasser.
The days of conspicuously wasting our scarse resources are gone, hopefully never to return.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I think there are two different ways you can look at this discussion. From a pure philosophical standpoint, and from a pragmatic, marketing standpoint. Personally, I find a lot of Prius drivers to be a bit obnoxious in their desire to stand out and exude a “holier than thou” attitude with their vehicle. There’s no technical reason (other than possibly aerodynamics) that a hybrid needs to look any different than a “regular” car. But let’s just look at the sales of some recent hybrids:
Prius: Runaway hit
Accord Hybrid: Flop
Malibu Hybrid: Flop
Camry Hybrid: Moderately Successful
Fusion Hybrid: Successful
Insight: Successful
Seems the Camry and Fusion might be the exception to the rule of hybrids needing to look “different” to sell well. I think it comes down to whether they buyers are insecure, conspicuous greenies, and want the whole world to know how environmentally-conscious they are, or those that quietly want to do their part to move us toward energy independence. I personally like the styling of the Volt on its own merits.
I’d say from a marketing standpoint, it’s probably a safer bet to make a hybrid model (especially a dedicated model) look unique, if the Prius’ success is anything to go by.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
If GM does intend to provide hybrid versions of “regular” cars, they should no longer tie the option to it’s must luxurious trim. LS, LT, LTZ (or whatever) should change to HS, HT, HTZ trim levels for the hybrid version (or VS, VT VTZ if it is a Voltec version).
By and large, the leather-seat climate-control crowd isn’t the ‘use less gas / save the planet’ crowd.
(This allows Cap’n Jack to get his “stripper”)
.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
“Why can’t you have it all? A beautiful car with you choice of drivetrains. Just because I want fuel efficiency doesn’t mean I want to drive an ugly or no options car.”
By the same token, you should be able to get the drivetrain you want without all the bells and whistles. One reason GM’s larger hybrids failed is that you apparently couldn’t get them without leather interior and every conceivable luxury item thrown in (at a much higher premium than might have been the case otherwise).
July 15th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Don’t you mean the “cat’s pajama’s” with a one two skuh-do?
July 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
We must realize marketing has had a lot to do with our tastes in design. The time has come for functional styling to be dominant. It will then be marketings responsibility to educate the consumer on the benefits of this new revolution. I do not doubt that the young designers and engineers will have new aesthetics of design that will create new tastes. I can’t wait.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Like it or don’t, it’s a practical, aerodynamic car with a large interior volume. Not everybody needs their car to be a fashion statement.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
I think the bottom line in the design debate is the bottom line. People don’t have to have a generic same style car to tell everyone its a hybrid, they can get license plates, bumper stickers etc if they really want to boast. I think the other hybrids that failed IE Honda may be more to do with TCO than looks. You don’t want to wait until end of life to recoupe your up front investment also those versions, if I am not mistaken, tanked before gas was $4.50/gallon. They may have seen the same demand as Prius back then had they been in show rooms and made economic sense. If the car is hot and appealing the long term gas efficiency & TCO environmental sides are icing on the cake. Without a good looking car it is not going to be in heavy demand & will be niche. A good looking EREV when gas is $4.50 a gallon that is cost effective, will command the market especially if people think prices will last to give them a quick payback. The green badge does not buy as much as some think. Some people still crunch numbers before they go shopping, I don’t believe most people in this economy will pluck down 20 G’s on a whim without doing the homework, but then again….
July 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
“This is just very basic. People will pay more for two reasons: one is to impress others; the other is to get conveniences for their own use.”
Safety (perceived or real) is another reason people are willing to pay more (specifically, the myth of “bigger is safer” which helped rationalize so many SUV sales). Reality is that you can now get reasonably safe cars at virtually every price level if you do your research.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
______________________________________________________
Lyle’s Question:
“Should Hybrid Cars Have Distincitve Styling?”
—-
Answer:
Should Diesel Cars Have Distincitve Styling?
Should Ethanol Cars Have Distinctive Styling?
Should Natural Gas Cars Have Distinctive Styling?
Should Magic Star Dust (EEStor) Cars Have Distinctive Styling?
Should Cars with ABS Breaking Have Distinctive Styling?
Should Cars with OnStar Have Distinctive Styling?
Why subordinate a car’s styling cues to the car’s type of power train?
_____________________________________________________
July 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
It is all about the aerodynamics. If you want to personalize, you can use paint, small body shape changes, graphics, window placement, and other variations that do not affect the aerodynamics (or only in a very small way).
Like it or not, cars are going to look the same as they converge upon the best aerodynamic designs. If you don’t like, then you can pay lots of money extra money on gas and more batteries for bad aerodynamic shape, but that is pretty stupid in my opinion.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
REPORT: Ontario announces incentives for plug-in vehicles, up to $10K
_____________________________
Anyone know what the current prices are for moving vans and thermal underwear!!!!!
July 15th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I find these people who desire none aerodynamic designs quite odd. If you asked them would you pay $50/month (and increasing every year) to have your car made into whatever shape you want, I doubt most people would say yes. But that is exactly what they are saying when they buy non aerodynamically shaped cars!
July 15th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Man, life’s too serious to be so short. Or vice versa, depending on how you look at it!!!!
July 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Who wants to kill the electric car?
Fiat does…
Fiat’s electric Fiat Palio Weekend in production in Brazil; estimated cost $70,000 (U.S.)
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/15/fiats-electric-fiat-palio-weekend-in-production-in-brazil-esti/
At $70,000.00, 85MPC and max 65mph, the car is DOA!
OK, maybe they will sell 100 but phuk dude, 70K?!?!?
July 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
The concept was very ugly.. I bet GM did some marketing surveys and found out quickly.. and out came the aerodynamics-of-a-brick comment and excuse.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
If this Volt-VAN’s a-rockin’
don’t come a-knockin’
July 15th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Sure the Aztek looks good, as long as you never have to look at it from the rear. It looks like they gave up half way through designing it.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
/your old
(=
July 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
it passed?.. that has to be a lie!, no way..some commie euros got paid to pass it. It will be a disaster if it comes to the US, people will line up around the block to buy it no matter what it looks like.
Good joke btw
July 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Your last sentence almost gets it– it’s not JUST an aerodynamic shape we’re after. The problem is getting a low Cd in a car with a large interior volume. A corvette can’t haul the people or stuff that a Prius can, and it still has a higher Cd than the Prius.
If all you want is aerodynamics, you get a harpoon of a vehicle. If you want useful interior space, an exterior footprint that fits in a parking space, (as opposed to a thirty-foot tube with everyone lying down headfirst in a row), AND aerodynamics… you get a Kammback.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Right on!
Gen 2 and 3 Volts will be profitable.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Dave K said:
GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said despite numerous warnings and statements from GM that the stock was likely worthless, GMGMQ continued to climb.
————–
Further proof that GM press releases…also worthless.
The trading in ‘old GM’ was certainly baffling to say the least. Nobody. at least on Wall Street or to people who follow these sorts of things, could understood why its name gave some kind of teflon-like resistance to reality.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Because of the current rather substantial price premium to GET the hybrid bits, that’s why.
In 5 – 10 years I’ll be onside with you, but until then it just has to look the part or people will not buy in large enough numbers.
(Magic Star Dust! AWESOME!)
July 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
CaptJackSparrow said:
Hey statik, you lucky dogs up there….
REPORT: Ontario announces incentives for plug-in vehicles, up to $10K
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/15/report-ontario-announces-incentives-for-plug-in-vehicles-up-to/
==============================
Yeah, it had been pretty much assumed it would come along at some point. Canada and US are very interchangeable when it comes to the auto industry, lol.
$10,000 = $8,984 USD
Huzzah for a rebounding dollar!
http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CADUSD=X&t=1d&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=
/now if we can just get oil back to $150/barrel, that would $10,000 would be worth $11,000 US.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
GM vehicles need to be Passionate, Have Soul and “move” people to want them. That’s what made all the GM classics you see at auctions going for amazing money.
That’s what GM needs.
Hybrids need to follow the same…not be a Geek with skinny Girl Scout wheels and tires…cheap econo-box look.
Lutz is back (thank God) he will be doing adds like Iaccoca when he saved Chrysler “If you can find a better car, buy it”
Lutz is quoted “The Gloves Are Off”
As I said a few months ago…when many said no….
The Camaro has a market. It’s selling faster than they can build them.
304 horse and 29 MPG…Sweet!
GM is back. That’s a real nice “I Told You So”
Go Bobby!
Bring out an efficient Z/28 it’s already designed and done.
Bring out the C7 Vette that’s in the Transformer movie peeking out of the back of a trailer and do not change it!
Converj, CTS Coupe, Efficient crossovers…
Hell build Chrysler’s V-10 Tamohawk Viper Engine bike and watch it sell like no other bike in the world. Just do it with efficiency. http://morningcup.files.wordpress.com/2006/08/dodge_tomahawk_front.jpg
July 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
I think too much is made of the looks of the Prius being a sales driver. The car is a runaway success because it is a practical four-seater with the best available mileage. The original Insight got better mileage, but didn’t meet most people’s minimums for a car (hold four adults, move some boxes now and then).
If somebody produced a car that seats four adults with useful cargo space, costs $22k, and gets 55mpg… it will dethrone the Prius in a heartbeat. It has succeeded in spite of its looks, not because of them– because it is the most efficient car that meets most people’s needs.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Aero tuning is a very interesting combination of art and science.
It’s pretty clear that GM and Honda are emulating the winning 5 door hatch design of the prius because the prius sells.
Take a step back and take a really clear look at it the current aero ’shape’, (prius) it is totally marketing driven.
IF the tesla S ever hits the road it’ll spark a shift to slippy sedan shapes, (I had an early slippy shaped Taurus years ago… this isn’t new) until the next ‘thing’ comes along. Who knows, maybe people will decide they like the M-B fish car look.
What is silly is acting like Lord Kelvin and saying the answers have all been found. They have not.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Here are the ’specifics’ of our version of electric subsidization:
—–
“Ontario’s target is to become a world leader in building and driving electric cars.”
—aims to have one out of every 20 vehicles driven in Ontario to be electrically powered by 2020.
—rebates of between $4,000 and $10,000 for plug-in hybrid and battery electric vehicles purchased after July 1, 2010
—unique, fancy ‘green’ license plates (thats for you Tag), that lets us drive in HOV lanes regardless of passengers, drive on lawns, run over pedestrians, and get 15% of Rolling Stones tickets while feeling really smug about ourselves. We even have a website already to vote for the ‘hottest’ plates:
http://voting.pcsunit.com/green-plates/index-en.php
No details on the breakdown on how the rebates work, but it is expected to be similar to the US system. (Also the EVs can’t be NEVs, only highway capable qualify)
July 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I don’t know where these car company CEO’s grew up or what planet they live on, but they have to know the whole reason they sell cars is largely based on looks. Sure there are a minority of people out there that buy cars based on usefulness, such as pickup trucks or work vans. But I would be willing to bet most people out there buy their car based on looks and how many people can fit in it. That said, I would buy a Toyota prius… if it wasn’t the prius.
What I am getting at is if, toyota really wanted to sell massive numbers of that car, they would do what they do with their gas burning cars. They would take the essence of the car and make three to four different versions of it. A two door that looked sleak and sexy, a family car/ be it a suv or four door, and a pick up truck. Why on earth they think that the vast majority of people would buy that ugly looking wanna be bug like car is beyond me. If they want to tap into the market of people who arn’t necessarily environmentally conscious but buy cars that they want, toyota would/should get smart and design a new body style that (is not necessarily a radical design) and market it to people as a money machine not a green machine…. they would sell millions in my opinion.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
SUH-WEEET looking ride.
I’ll never be able to afford a $57,000 car I’m afraid but it is one good looking vehicle.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Nice post Don, I was trying to say that myself earlier, but you said it much better.
/I agree all around.
+1
July 15th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Safety is interesting because, while you’d think it would be purely personal, Volvo managed to make it into a statement. But now that any number of cars are as safe as a Volvo, that the brand really has no purpose as far as I can tell.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
A lot of people care quite a bit about what their car looks like. Think about it–people are willing to pay premiums for looks in just about everything else. Houses, furniture, clothing, etc. Even food. So, why not for their cars?
That said, there’s no reason they can’t design good-looking aerodynamic cars. I think the converj is absolutely stunning. Ditto for the fisker karma. But I also think the Prius and the current Volt are attractive, so what do I know?
July 15th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Sounds like you weren’t around here when they changed the “look”.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS
July 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Are you a GM car salesman?
July 15th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Yeah, we have a ditty on it at #40, but I have to comment on the article you linked to, re: Zen comments at the bottom:
From the article:
“We are developing a highway-capable vehicle, called the cityZenn, with a planned prototype introduction later this year with a full commercial vehicle for 2010, that will be all electric, unlike the Chevy Volt or the Toyota Prius, with an anticipated range of about 400 kilometres and a top speed of 125 kilometres an hour, and will be chargeable in minutes (with a special recharging unit),” Scrimgeour told CTV News Channel.
—
Translation:
Its coming in 2008, no 2009, no 2010…trust us, its coming this time, we really mean it…and it still just as fantastical! Good news is that it still gets 400km(250miles) to a charge, goes up to 80 mph, and charges in minutes!!! Just like we said it would years ago…points for consistency for us! Huzzah! Zenn and EEStor will rule the world! …but could we maybe have a couple hundred million more to help ’smooth’ and ‘expedite’ the process?
July 15th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
The Aztek SHOULD have been a hit.
Good gas mileage
Room for the family AND the dogs
AWD available
Can tow a trailer
BUT styling matters! and buyers stayed away as we all know.
If necessary contract in talented known designers to get some new distinctive good looking designs. The decent looking stablemate to the Aztek is called Rendezvous which sold reasonably well. It’s pretty much the same car!
July 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Exactly how I would have interpreted!!!
Quote:
“Our objective is to complete component testing by September 2009, ” says
Weir. “In parallel, we will be finalizing our second objective which consists of the
assembly processes necessary to deliver production quality components and/or
EESU’s by the end of 2009.”
From http://www.zenncars.com/media/documents/allcarselectric.pdf
This is like the play “Waiting for Godot”…
waiting…..waiting….waiting….
July 15th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
“If one were to accept the premise that hybrids should have unique styling, then GM would be looking at needing to come up with 26 unique bodies for hybrids by 2014, if the company were to meet its stated goal.”
(The timetable phases in “x” number of hybrids by 2014, at the rate of several a year). An alternative to “26 unique bodies” would be to produce each model as a hybrid only, following the year it is introduced as such.
Introduction year: “Now the GM Whatchamajigger is a hybrid!!
Following year: Everyone knows that the current-year GM Whatchamajigger only comes as a hybrid …
This gives dealers a chance to clear out the previous year’s models before “hybrid only” becomes the norm.
This has the advantage of eventually making most GM products hybrids or EREVs.
GM: Please don’t take that as advice on what to name a car …
July 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
The special license plate is a great idea. I hope we get that in the States (together with HOV exemption, of course)!
July 15th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
I agree, they aren’t buying the Camero for it’s green technology nor the
Corvette… It’s the looks baby… that’s just the way it is. Of course performance certainly plays a part, but I doubt they would be knocking on the door for a 400 hp Prius or would they?
Of course, we could all wear gray shirts and pants. No need for diversity in clothing either.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Ummm….
Aerodynamics is used with side fins to get wind pressure to push the Formula 1 car down for better traction. It has been said that at speeds they travel they can probably drive upside down with sufficient tract due to the aerodynamic design.
So yeah, I think the wind tunnel will dictate for best design. In fuel efficiency.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
59.
Guy Incognito Says:
July 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Stupid poll question…
Its like asking should diesel automobiles have distinctive styling? Why?
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
July 15th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
I agree with you Capt, and kudos on learning some Vietnamese, we Americans are far too illiterate of other languages and cultures.
The window of opportunity for a $70k green vehicle closed in 2008 IMO. I’m even worried for Mr. Fisker with his $87k vehicle, beautiful as it may be. I don’t know how many eco-pioneers with loads of cash there are out there.
The long term winner in the transition to electric vehicles will be sporty enough and priced right for the middle class. I believe that Nissan will give everyone a serious run for their money with their mass produced EV and batteries. This is key. Mass produce it and make it in such quantities that per unit costs are continually lowered.
Look at the price history of the VCR. The first ones were wildly expensive. Nobody had one at first. Then they started mass producing them and pretty soon EVERYONE had a VCR because they were inexpensive enough for the middle class to afford. The same must happen with batteries for electric vehicles.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Thats one thing I never understood why do “green” cars “HAVE” to be ugly. Give me an Electric Audi A4 / A6 or a BMW 335i and Im golden. I love the Volt and the only reason I accept its looks is because of the drag/friction issues. PS GM you better be thinking of how to put this tech into the Malibu and that new compact as well as the STS.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
@53…
July 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
So you’re saying that Toyota should put HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) in many of its vehicles? I agree. Economies of scale by mass production of HSD vehicles.
If only they were all Plug-In Hybrids…
July 15th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Maybe that’s what it actually costs them in terms of batteries and R&D? And they’re not willing to take a loss? (GIven their current financial troubles, I’m not surprised.)
Regardless, as far as I’m concerned, the more electric options, the better.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
This is where the art and science meet.
You ‘pen’ a basic design and then use the wind tunnel to ’round off’ the corners.
Absolutely every design is a compromise, if you were to check the CD on an F1 car you would find it is extremely high!
At speed an F1 car “weighs” much more than at rest and absolutely could pull a “Men in Black” and stick to the roof of a tunnel.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
lol….
here’s the video: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/15/video-tata-nano-gets-its-crash-on/
July 15th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
WOW, I didn’t think any car could make the prius look[ just can not say good] acceptable.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
That sounds Jim-Dandy to me!
July 15th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
A colleague at work here is a Prius owner. He says he hates it but says “I would drive a turd with a steering wheel to get into the carpool lane!” On the other hand, in a former life he was a race-car driver…
July 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Yeah, I agree. I don’t like the idea of slapping a sticker on my paint, lic plate seems more ideal. But that’s just me.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
I voted ‘no’ because I don’t want a voltec-drive car that looks like other hybrid styling. This was assumed by the question associated with the pix.
However, I believe that the Volt has the right styling for what it is. If it looks like ‘other’ hybrids, then, I don’t like it. If it is unique, then I do like it. It doesn’t have to scream ‘hybrid’ through styling.
It’s a car. Four wheels, four doors, four seats and something to make it go. It needs to do the job and not be butt ugly. I need to be able to drive the guys to lunch and not be embarassed.
btw, I am in IT and I really, really dislike the Prius. Not technically, just overall look and feel.
If there was a voltec ‘57 Chevy look-alike, I would buy it. If there was a Silverado with electric drive, I would buy it. Put a Volt in a showroom near me, and I will buy it.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Wow, fantastic! I’m wondering: Are manufacturing costs higher to get these subtle curves mass-produced? Would that be a reason that GM went for a more econo-box look? Anyone on this site in the biz, who would know?
July 15th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Maybe it’s more expensive to mass-produce subtle, curvy forms such as the Tesla S. Anybody know?
July 15th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
I’m betting it’s because quite frankly the ONLY hybrid that has sold at all well is the Prius.
Building the Volt in a similar form is a safer bet.
The curvy Voltec “S” like model can come later, since it will likely sell in smaller numbers.
There would be a bit more complication with a curvy body structure, but that’s why fenders and bumper covers etc are spaced the way they are. Look at your own car you can see how it was designed to be assembled.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
After it got humped by a Pontiac Aztek.
Now the Aztek is a vehicle that got hit by the ugly stick!
July 15th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Thanks!
I definitely want a chance to own a Volt! That’s why I keep reading this blog!
July 15th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Actually, Aptera exceeds car crash safety. They use methods and materials similar to race cars. Have you ever seen that 160mph race-car crash video where they interview the woman driver afterwords? See here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/tm/3507.html?site=22&pl=wmp&rate=hi&ch=4
about 3/4 of the way through.
But on snow and ice, I think it’s a different story. Other people have raised this issue as well. If you want to avoid crashing in snow or ice, Aptera is not the car for you.
July 15th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Circa 2011/ Hi, I’m Thorstein Veblen. I’m baaack!
( http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1902veblen00.html )
July 15th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
I think the Aptera looks great. But there really isn’t any accounting for taste, is there? It is all subjective, which is why it is difficult to make a car everyone wants.
No one can do that, but GM can at least try to build a car most people want.
I still think the Volt would be a perfect family car if it had 5 seats instead of 4.
An Jason, I don’t hyper-mile either. It is too annoying to me and the people who are behind me. I just set the cruise control at 50 MPH, sit back and relax. 95% of my commute is in a 55 MPH zone, so 50 is okay.
July 15th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Tesla is proof the that hybrid or EVs don’t have to look dumb. In fact the whole company is pretty much based on that fact.
July 15th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Hybrids just need to have an attractive design that we’re all looking for. It SHOULD NOT be radical or anything, as there are a lot of buyers that don’t want a “space-age” looking car.
A unique aesthetic would be pleasant, but not required. A hybrid Cobalt trim, for instance, would be just fine with me though.
July 15th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I’m all for it, but too bad this is just an instant +$10 000 to the price tag of all electric cars to be sold in Ontario.
They shouldn’t announce these things before prices are finalized. They should spring it on us a year later saying cars purchased between April1st 2011 and March 31 2012 are eligible for a $10 000 rebate. (or something like that.)
July 15th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
When it comes to getting it on in the car, the bench seat won out over bucket seats years ago. The 2010 Prius front seats are so divided, you might as well be riding a Segway. The VOLT battery design will even help keep the youngsters apart in the rear seats.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Let’s face it folks most GM cars are butt ugly compared to the highly refined european autos. It’s like Robby Lutz beat them with an ugly stick and forced them on the poor dealerships.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Sorry Bozo but GM has yet to make a profit on the new Camaro. It is a loss leader currently. The real test will be if demand remains after 3 years when they finally can start to recoup investment. The verdict is still out on this gas guzzler.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Tesla Model S will be the biggest game changer since the Model T.
That’s a fact Jack. You can take that to the bank.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
“If there was a voltec ‘57 Chevy look-alike, I would buy it.”
I will second that motion.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Its just a car, transportation, no need to invest your happiness on how your car looks….
July 15th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
As much as i want to help by buying an electric car, i would not even consider a 70k electric car capable of 85 miles and a top speed which scraps in at 65miles per hour. For 70k, you can buy a luxury car, convert it to electric, and at the end of the day have better performance.
I cannot see them selling a single unit.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
We had this argument last year. Please keep an open mind and I will keep it short. There is a reason cars are crash tested according to their own weight/size class. There is a reason that boxers have weight classes. A small car crashing against another small car may very well indeed be safe at a reasonable speed. BUT, take that same small car and let it get hit by a much larger but equally designed car/truck/suv and you will get much different results. Please read between the lines here. All things being equal, a well- built larger, heavier vehicle is much safer against a well-built smaller, lighter vehcile. And for the most part, most cars are designed very well regardless of size or weight anymore, so the larger, heavier vehicles do tend to be safer against smaller, lighter vehicles.
Hawk
July 15th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Why did this bubble “car” never seem ugly?
http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0207/rpm_g_jetsons_300.jpg
That will be the day, when Pigs and Priuses fly.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
The one thing I like about the Prius, it is a hatchback. I had a 1985 Dodge Lancer (ES model). It was a cute, little car that sat 4 very comfortably. The back seat had gobs of leg room, much more than any modern car of the same size, before or since. And it was a hatchback. The hatch was notched so it looked like a more conventional sedan. It even had a removable package shelf between the back seat and the base of the back window. It hinged up when you opened the hatch to give you lots of loading room. Remove the shelf, fold down the seats, and you could put a ton of s__t, (STUFF) in the back. Of course, just like today with a hatchback, or even an SUV. Get in a crash and all your ‘STUFF’ is gonna try to kill ya dead!.
Regardless, it was a very functional car and it was, for its day, very stylish. Hatchbacks (2 and 4 door) fell out of favor by the 90’s and I’m not sure why. I hope they make a comeback. In a small car, they are tough to beat.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Ok. I skimmed all posts, and I have little patience, and the subject is subjective….so here goes.
Hybrids should be designed to optimize what they are, which is a hybrid. The design does not need radical cues, and unless it is done to improve performance, safety, or other driving pleasures, then leave them out.
A hybrid should look what ever gives the car its best performance. Since strong hybrids will have larger, heavier batteries, the design should take advantage of the weight and design the car to take advantage of the lower center of gravity.
Oh heck, just build the darn thing. People will complain whatever you do. Let someone trick out their ride by themselves if that’s what trips their trigger.
Done.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Being a race-car driver, I think his statement was relating more to the handling and performance than styling. That’s actually my greater interest as well, and in that regard I’m encouraged to hear the recent reports of the Volt having a more sporty driving demeanor.
Good handling equates to greater safety, especially on California’s hilly, twisty roads. And this isn’t just Hwy 1 I’m talking about, it’s true of miles and miles of daily commuting, with the freeway (e.g., 880, 680) in perpetual road repair and squeezed between concrete construction barriers (and no shoulders whatsoever)! I moved up to sportier (albeit more expensive) cars because I was repeatedly terrified by my cheaper rides veering off the desired path, or the need to dodge other drivers who veered off. Currently I have an 05 Pontiac GTO that has calmed me down (ironically) tremendously. I love that car, yet I plan to replace it with a Volt!
July 15th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Back when people debated the merits of cats whiskers, the details of a car would give away the 0 to 60mph time. or the time and speed of the 1/4 mile pass.
Now those same details give the mpg of a car or the city/highway mpg. The next detail to be observed by little boys sitting in the back seat…
Electric Range!
Along with cutlery usage, once the subject of debate of little girls.
/apologies for any sexual stereotypes.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Good Day Gents,
I did not quite understand Higgins rant, however Al G. is no dope, he is a very rich man getting richer yet. He should be able to afford a Volt next year when they come out on Ebay with a buy it now price of $49,995.00
Oh yes this comment was about Jaguars, I loved the old gold E-type convertible. Funny I painted it red, then later painted it gold again. It is out in the barn now, parked next to the Series II Land Rover pick up. A pair of basket cases. Power on oversteer is a great thing. The XJ-6 had a great ride at the time, took Cadillac a long time to replicate it.
Time to water the flowers.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Give me a foam block and a hot wire….
July 15th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Dang, this is turning to an old Jag thread. I have thought more than once of turning the Old Jag and Rover to electrics.
I do not think I could do it, the Rover is red, and the Jag is Gold!
A affordable retro BRG XK120 electric, now that is somthing i could drive.
July 15th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
I just checked the dealer web site where I bought my Colorado, they had 200 Silverados, and 4 Colorados. Where is the new “Green” GM?
July 15th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
I almost got a plate for the Prius, “VOLTSS” we went for “BADGAS” instead. The first thought was “VOLTZZ” I would love to se a ZZ Top edition of, most anything. Retro is CooL.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
I was, I still think it was ugly and juvenile looking.. but it would not have stopped me from buying one.. function over form. I really think GM did some marketing survey groups and got a bad response.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
I see a bit of Lotus 7 in there, I think I could handle the green paint, as long as it had yellow trim.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
I saw a play up in Newfoundland, Baywatch.
Very similar, tide in, tide out.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Hell NO! The reason i would not buy a Prius is the design of body is terrible. The body of the Prius, looks a clothes iron. Yeah it’s nice have good economy but the Prius looks a turtle’s shell. Picture of the honda ’s body looks totally similar to Prius. They probably design it like that due to drag ratio or something. But come on, it sucks. I rather go buy a GM volt, more sporty appearance. I am asking car companies to have your own designs, don’t be follow Prius design, looks cheaply made.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
I’m with DonC and Statik on this one.
If the technology is incremental rather than a step change it needs to pay back using conservative assumptions in a period of about 50% or less than the time the owner expects to keep the vehicle. So pay back in maybe 2 years.
Otherwise reasons like it’s more risk, it’s more complicated, it costs more, but gas prices could go down, the insurance is more, will cause many to choose the easiest i.e. cheapest option.
For vehicles that represent a step change they must also be unique externally, otherwise their halo effect is diluted by association with the standard vehicles.
Why would anyone at GM be debating this?
July 15th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Offtopic.
I wonder why you use the Amul logo – no connection, right ?
For those who don’t know …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amul
—
Amul (Anand Milk Union Limited), formed in 1946, is a dairy cooperative movement in India. It is a brand name managed by an apex cooperative organisation, Gujarat Co-operative Milk Marketing Federation Ltd. (GCMMF), which today is jointly owned by some 2.6 million milk producers in Gujarat, India[1].
—
July 15th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Did you forgot a [/sarcasm] tag…?
July 15th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
At 70+mpg, I, sir, want to drive a fish down the road.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Good to pay attention to corvette guy, he’s on the front lines!
July 15th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
/pessimism is added to our water up here
(=
July 15th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Rant? Which RANT? I spend quality time on NOT making money to pay for the various unsundry demands of the STATE and thus “rant” about here. The one about not paying a small fortune to run around with a machine that screams, “I love Al Gort and the planet and small furries…”, or the rant that says the Global, Who Done It Types, are richly lost on Fantasy Island? That the Great Al Gort is rich, is not a primer to logic, we do know about logic don’t we? but then we are talking about the edumedicated public. So no, he is not a dope but a well heeled huckster in the great American tradition.
Cheers!—–Higgins
Time to, ah, have another! Cheers! Red HHR—Higgins
July 15th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Jaysus up in Heavan! Have you people never looked at an Apple laptop? What about a Volkswagen Beetle? Home-run products look DIFFERENT from other stuff. Frankly, it’s probably better to be extreme in a bad way than to be non-descript. Especially in this case, when you know that the final design will have to make it through dozens of GM commitees and cycles of homogenization. There is a reason the TESLA sedan is twice as attractive as a VOLT, and it has nothing to do with vehicle price. It has to do with commitee think and a wrong-headed philosophy about making the car look “normal”.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
That might help with the initial sale, but the novelty wears off after a few weeks, and you’re left with…. [drum roll] A car!
But, if you’ll notice, it’s hard to get a used Prius. That’s because it’s a good car on its own merits. It would be a useful and dependable Toyota Transportation Appliance without the HSD, but not nearly as interesting.
There’s more to life than image! I’m sure there are enviro-poseurs out there… But the people in my life who really want to make environmental statements can’t afford a Prius — so they extended their organic vegetable garden into their front yard, hoping to point out that watering your lawn is bad (in Colorado) and growing your own food is good. The actual Prius owners that I know in my age-group (about 3) are just normal folks who wanted a responsible little car. One would have bought a used Volvo, and the other two probably would have bought Hondas.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
But you know it’s going to happen.. that’s the sad thing
(Pessimism? I prefer realism :p)
At least McGuinty’s HST scam will give that instant 8% hike on gas prices to good use on this credit.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
I hope you don’t mean GIANT decals on the sides of the vehicle that say “Hybrid”…! That’s what Chevy did with the Tahoe Hybrid and all but one of our customers asked to have them removed.
I guess “looking” different to tell everyone you drive a Hybrid is better that driving an ordinary looking vehicle with GIANT labels screaming out that you are driving a Hybrid.
July 15th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
…all but one of our customers asked to have them removed.
Motorcycle dealers are running into the “decal” problem as well. The local Kawasaki salesman said that he needed to remove two purple chevrons from a Ninja to complete a sale.
Just a simple EREV emblem is fine. Make it 1.5″ x 4″.
=D~
July 15th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Thanks guys! I appreciate the compliment.
Usually the phrase “car salesman” is quickly followed by “dirt bag” or “pond scum”.
Actually, I’m the Internet Sales Manager for a dealership in SoCal. Most of my contact with customers is over the Internet and Emails. By the time they see me, they know the price and particulars… then they just stop in to test drive, buy, and drive away.
So, I do “sell” cars, but I prefer the term “marketing”, which is still something GM is doing poorly when it comes to Hybrids. I’m hoping the VOLT will change how they do their TV and Radio Ads. Their magazine ads are good, but should be targeted to wider audiences.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
No, just a little badge. That said, i think it would be wise to not make 2 models of the same car, where one is a hybrid and the other is not. The car would not be immediately recognisable for what it is.
July 15th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Now that I think about it, GM should avoid promoting another “Hybrid” unless the hwy MPG is a 2-digit number that starts with a 4 or 5.
Even though I find the “children-and-midgets-dressed-as-flowers-and-grass” commercials for the Prius artistically disturbing, when they start talking about 50 miles per gallon, it is hard not to pay a little attention to that.
When the VOLT comes out, the focus should be on “ZERO gas usage for your average daily commute”.
July 16th, 2009 at 12:36 am
“I don’t know where these car company CEO’s grew up or what planet they live on, but they have to know the whole reason they sell cars is largely based on looks. ”
Thats why the Corolla sells so well..
http://www.toyota.com/corolla/exterior-360.html?trim=base
July 16th, 2009 at 12:44 am
You are obeying the speed limits in those construction zones right?.. big tickets if you dont.
Dont forget, it is very messy if you kill a hwy construction worker.
July 16th, 2009 at 12:49 am
Duude, you know those hairy legged eco chicks that are attracted to Prius owners?.. all they ever talk about is recycling this and that, sometimes a guy just wants to dump used motor oil down the storm drain
July 16th, 2009 at 12:55 am
I think it has a very distinctive look.. then again I have no taste.
July 16th, 2009 at 12:57 am
YES , with an explanation , they shouldn’t look like their gas only counterparts .
They should be distinctive but not too aerodynamic and nothing like the Prius or Insight .
The Hybrid badge should go as well , I think it is silly , like “automatic” from years past .
July 16th, 2009 at 1:00 am
“If the ICE gets 23mpg/city and the Hybrid gets 26mpg/city – forget it, but if the Hybrid gets 34mpg/city then I’ll buy it.”
What do you mean forget it? Is a hybrid a bad thing or are you assuming the hybrid option automatically costs @$4000 more?
You are right about the costs so it’s not a simple matter of 34mpg instead 26mpg vs 23mpg. It’s a matter of reasonable value. While I think the cars will significantly lower gasoline consumption carry a value beyond the straight straight gas savings (ala Prius), other cars with more moderate savings need to more closely match their pemium to their gas saving value. In other words, I believe the 26mpg hybrid version for $750 extra will sell better than the 34mpg version for $3000 extra unless there isn’t a viable alternative brand with significantly less gas consumption (e.g. 50mpg Prius today, Volt tomorrow). If GM cannot provide a non-dedicated hybrid option for a premium appropriate to the gas cost savings, then it should not be offered as a non-dedicated option unless it gets significantly better fuel economy than everything else in that market segment. Even so, their still is a reasonable limit to the premium that can be charged as evidenced by two-mode offerings to date.
If they could offer a two-mode version of the base Silverado that saves the average driver 30% on fuel for a premium of $6500 or so, that would sell. But if someone were offering a comparable plug-in pickup that saves >50% on fuel and costs $10,000 more than the base ICE pickup, then the Silverado two-mode can only carry @$5000 premium.
July 16th, 2009 at 1:06 am
“Even though I find the “children-and-midgets-dressed-as-flowers-and-grass” commercials for the Prius artistically disturbing, when they start talking about 50 miles per gallon, it is hard not to pay a little attention to that.”
It is a stunning commercial.
http://jalopnik.com/5259796/new-toyota-prius-commercial-creepy-and-mesmerizing
July 16th, 2009 at 1:07 am
it bounces pretty good, gotta give you a hell of a headache.
July 16th, 2009 at 1:24 am
Call me a cheap date, but my favorite cars *are* the cheap ones.
Honda Fit, Scion xB (the first version, not the bulky new one), Mini Cooper, Smart…
Honda blew it lately. Their stuff is starting to look… American. Overwrought and incomplete. Like GM/Chevy’s insistence on putting horizontal lines across the grill. Dude! A horizontal line is your /design language/? Either you need to duct tape that marketing exec to his executive washroom, or (more likely) Bob Lutz sticking his untalented head (ass) where it doesn’t belong….
July 16th, 2009 at 1:37 am
I’m not a fan of the Prius’ looks either, but clearly it hasn’t hampered their sales too much. I do think that if there were hybrid options of some of today’s popular vehicles with similar functionality and fuel economy for a $4000 premium from their base model price, then the Prius would be struggling. Say a hybrid Vibe selling for $22,000 and getting 45mpg plus a hybrid Audi A4 wagon getting 45mpg selling for $38,000. I don’t believe there is value to a design just because it is unique looking, as the Aztek designers now know. I believe the Prius sells inspite of its looks more than because of it. It sells because it has good functionality with significantly better gas mileage than anything else with similar function.
GM just needs to do a better job of assessing the different market segments. If they produce products with exceptional features like the Volt, then they’ll be able to charge a premium for those features. For marginal improvements like the BAS hybrid offered, it doesn’t matter whether the design is dedicated or not. The price premium has to match the value add and unless there is significant fuel savings over all competitive vehicles in that market segment, the value add is directly tied to the cost of fuel savings.
July 16th, 2009 at 1:57 am
I disagree. Many, if not the majority, of the Prius owner are reasonably affluent and could afford more expensive cars. The Prius is not a least cost purchase. Hopefully, GM can offer the next generation BAS hybrid for reasonable premium on lower end models too, so the budget constrained folks can afford to choose the extra efficiency.
I do agree they should offer their hybrids accross all trim levels so they can better match the consumer’s wants, but this is because I believe the desire to save gas now cuts across all socio-economc levels.
Disclaimer: This does not mean everybody cares about saving gas. That would be a naive assessment at this point, but a broad of people do care and their numbers are growing.
July 16th, 2009 at 2:02 am
Huh?
You mean like Camry HSD, Highlander HSD, Lexus RX400 HSD, new dedicated Lexus sedan HSD
July 16th, 2009 at 2:08 am
I disagree. Toyota could have continued marketing a same-styled gas version getting @30mpg (called the ECHO) and the Prius version would still be selling well.
What other 50mpg 5-seat, hatchback cars would people be buying?
July 16th, 2009 at 2:23 am
I dion’t think the Karma has exceptional aerodynamics but I certainly agree that the vast majority of buyers will pay a premium for looks. This has and will always be true. That said, there is also a decent segment of the market that doesn’t place much value on style. Not that they wouldn’t prefer a car that looks better to them, but they won’t pay much extra (if anything) for it.
July 16th, 2009 at 3:42 am
Agreed!! There are all these supercilious fools who think that people would gladly drive Smarts in lieu of Malibus, even if fuel prices declined to 1950s levels through the use of perfected electrics with in-expensive batteries.
When energy is abundant and cheap, as it WILL BE within two decades, cars will get bigger. Nuclear will double to about 40% within the decade. Fusion is coming, as well. The last scientific experiment for Fusion is being built now. The next will be a proto-type, commercial, power-generating Plant.
This Energy price conundrum, is a temporary situation. Temporary being defined as 40-50 years, in this case.
July 16th, 2009 at 4:04 am
All that shows is the complete farce that EU safety and emissions regulations really are.
July 16th, 2009 at 4:13 am
Bladders in the gas tank were not a safety consideration, only. To go from California SULEV II rating to PZEV rating, you have to reduce evaporation losses from the gas tank even when the car is PARKED.
Gas tank Bladders were a method to get a PZEV rating for the “Green” Prius. Now they have perfected a cheaper method.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:47 am
If there ever was a plain vanilla looking car prize the Volt would get first prize easily from the front , from the rear it looks like a calculated guess as to what it should look like on a small body .
The Converj on the other hand looks good although the trunk lid looks weird .
I can imagine going into a Chevy dealer and asking to see the Volt and the sales man saying ” I will have to go into the office to see if we have any in stock ” and walk right past one in the lot on the way into the office . COURTESY CHEVROLET comes to mind .
July 16th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Oh, I know it will for sure, I was just taking the opportunity to give someone else a hard time for a change, heeh. The same way the Volt rocketed to a 40K MSRP in the states, it just jumped to 50K up here I’m sure.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Here is something for you captain
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/05/toyota-will-launch-series-production-phev-prius-in-2012/
Direct competition to the Volt by Toyota Prius SERIES and it is a Plug-in too.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:47 am
MuddyRoverBob
What’s a key? Most new vehicles use smart fobs now and you just get in, it automatically knows you have the fob, and you press an on button to turn it on. So all those new cars failed because people didn’t buy them? Or not. It sure beats fumbling for those old fashioned pokey metal sticks.
Vehicles became mobile consumer electronics when you weren’t looking.
You said:
“If a ‘normal’ (meaning non-enthusiast) driver can’t just get in, turn the key, put it in drive and go… the car will fail because people will not buy it.”
July 16th, 2009 at 8:47 am
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/05/toyota-will-launch-series-production-phev-prius-in-2012/
TOYOTA PRIUS “SERIES PLUG-IN” COMING dont be surprised .
July 16th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Note to myself .
Dont just read the headline and check the release date again .
Dont expect technical writers to use the proper and correct wording .
“Series” when talking about hybrids refers to the way the electrical power system is wired together
Parallel is the combination of mechanical and electrical means of getting power to the wheels ..
Serial is the production of copies or continuation of a story or play .
There are people who dont know the difference between Series and Serial .
There are people who dont know the difference between Series and Parallel .
There are people who dont know that a Series Hybrid is superior to a Parallel configuration in efficiencies and building costs and simplistic s of design .
Dont try to educate anybody either , it is not worth the effort .
July 16th, 2009 at 9:39 am
I have a hard time seeing how the first pickup truck that gets over 30 mpg, using any technology, including clean diesel, isn’t a marketing coup (no guarantee of a sales success or profits, though). Wait, all you have to do is a chop job on a Ford Escape hybrid small SUV to make a short truck bed in the back and you get a crew cab rally pickup truck with over 30 mpg. Why hasn’t Ford done that yet?
1. Cue the Subaru Baja and other unibody ute history. They don’t sell well to date, possibly due to lower towing capacity and higher body work repair of unibodies? Still, there’s nothing to stop a body shop from doing it and showing us what it looks like. It’d be a great rally vehicle with an electric motorcycle (or ATV) and a 3kWh generator in the p/u bed for extra extreme off roading (go in the backcountry ’til four wheels can’t go no more, then go another 10 on your silent electric offroad motorcycle (or ATV) to bag that 12 point buck that’s been eluding you for years – I can dream).
2. They don’t need to – no competition on the horizon, so folks will continue to buy 1880’s and 1940’s technology pickup trucks, which make me laugh every time I see one (like I do when I see a brand new Royal Enfield with a CB point ignition). The Ford Ranger comes in best at 23 mpg and Forbes ranked it as one of the most overpriced vehicle of 2009. Perhaps folks are willingly paying a premium for its class leading fuel economy?
July 16th, 2009 at 9:41 am
I have been out of touch lately and am just now getting back to this site. My opinion is as it has always been. A hybrid, or any car for that matter, should have enough distinctive styling differences to make it stand out from the crowd, so to speak. If you put out a hybrid and it is just a “cookie cutter” copy of an existing vehicle, it automatically adopts the good and bad points of the base vehicle it is part of. With a different design, especially a really unique look, you start fresh and can build your own reputation. It develops a following based on its characteristics, not on some other vehicle’s. IMO.
July 16th, 2009 at 9:41 am
@ firehawk
Which is why you should always take the (diesel electric hybrid) train.
July 16th, 2009 at 9:47 am
I say “Welcome” to Toyota if that is their plan. Adding a new battery type and a plug to the Prius and doubling the price is great news for GM. If that is Toyota’s answer to the Volt, then the battle is over before it is even begun. Thank you, Toyota.
July 16th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Diesels do have:
1. Distinctive NAMES (yes, with badges)
TDI
CDi
HDi FAP (my current favorite, on initials)
2. Distinctive RESULTS with class leading or high mileage and superior low end torque
examples:
VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI (81% of Sportwagen sales in US)
VW Golf TDI (coming to US)
VW Lupo TDI
Audi A3 and Quattro TDI
Audi R15
Puegeot 908 HDi FAP
For those who want electric drive chocolate with their diesel peanut butter, along with endurance supercar performance, try:
Puegeot 908 HDi HY
They don’t bother to use it in racing ’cause nothing comes close to their plain vanilla diesel supercar, let alone this hybrid with better performance and higher fuel economy.
July 16th, 2009 at 10:13 am
CJS:
It’s cheaper than a Tesla.
Makes the i-miev (Mitsubuishi), the Stella (Subaru) and the Coda (Porsche engineering and styling) seem like good deals, each in the 40-50k range, doesn’t it?
Also, it’s in production now. Now is worth more than later. Time has value.
It’s for fleet sales for now, so you can’t own one.
Xioawei:
Unless you are an expert at BMS, not for long, though.
—
It does make the Volt price look better. You think the performance and luxury of max torque at 0 rpm, instant, smooth, seamless acceleration at any time and quiet operation that comes with electric drive is cheap (except in my case, with a motorcycle)?
July 16th, 2009 at 10:14 am
That would be Blue Star, next generation beyond the S?
July 16th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Do you mean the gen II and III kammback designs, not the gen I mainstream Echo style? Please be more specific.
BTW, what other difference was there between gen I and Gen II/III. Maybe electric drive able to fully move vehicle without the engine running? That, and the top best entry here, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml, in a 5 seat four door midsize family sedan with a light, open and spacious interior, fold down flat rear seats and open back for superior cargo space and flexibility might explain the explosion in popularity.
Prius as Ninja Turtle. That’s so late 1980’s. Thanks for just making everyone see the Prius as a last century retro design.
July 16th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Thanks, Jim I. You may find the ER-EV is cheaper in up front costs, at least for now.
“A sporty two seater BEV with a real range of 200 miles, but it has to have four wheels and a roof” = Tesla Roadster = $$$,$$$.
I have been trying to counter the frequent BEV hate on the board with some BEV fan-boi enthusiasm for my inexpensive but high performance highway capable electric motorcycle with the 40 mile AER. Keep in mind that a short recharge or instant power pack swap for me = 40 + 40 + 40 + … as long as I last.
It’s obvious that markets and demand exists (and has) for both ER-EVs and for EVs with superior performance at reasonable prices and typical current day vehicle looks (no huge 50’s fins and heavy metal trophys glued to it, for example) and also that general electric drive demand is not monolithic (different groups of folks want different vehicle types with different e-ranges, prices and function (HEV, PHEV. ER-EV, BEV) choices.
Whether it’s a Zero S electric, a Piaggio MP3 hybrid, a Honda Insight, a plug in Toyota Prius, a newGM Chevy Volt, or a Mitsubishi i-miev, they all use electric drive. And all of those are on the streets with customers today (except the Volt). Yay.
July 16th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
The Ford Fusion styling changed for 2010 to coincide with the release of the hybrid variant. I think that while all 2010 Fusions look alike, coupling the release of the hybrid powertrain with styling changes was a very smart move on Ford’s part.
Styling aside, the Ford Fusion performs and beats in city mileage it’s hybrid mid sized competition–the Toyota Camry hybrid (by 8 MPG, 24%) and Nissan Altima hybrid (by 6 MPG, 17%).
Distinctive styling helps, but the key is that the powertrain has to perform and really Wow the consumer. With the state of the economy and the car industry, the public is demanding gamechangers.
July 16th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
It seems that people do want the world to know that they are doing something special for the environment. Yes, I think these vehicles show that it does matter – just look at the Prius sales numbers.
July 16th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Oh great. GMers are trying to communicate. Here’s a gem:
“I can’t wait until I can drive the Volt. As Teddy Roosevelt said in 1910, “If you build it they will come.” In this case, they will buy. ” Frank Weber, GM Global Vehicle Line Executive and Chief Engineer .
http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=7&func=view&catid=11&id=75#143
Teddy R. was talking about the Panama Canal.
Effectively, that’s Say’s Law, from 1803, influenced by Condillac,1776:
“Say’s Law claims that total demand in an economy cannot exceed or fall below total supply in that economy or as James Mill was to restate it, “supply creates its own demand.” In Say’s language, … “a glut can take place only when there are too many means of production applied to one kind of product and not enough to another”.”
Such as too many full gassers and not enough (any) electric vehicles.
Say’s work is frequently used to defend laissez-faire (leave it alone) free market capitalism in opposition to Keynesian views.
http://homepage.newschool.edu/het//profiles/say.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say’s_law
The point is that if you have excess capacity (and we currently do in the US, to the tune of about 6 million vehicles a year), it’s ’cause you were building crap consumers didn’t want and not building stuff that consumers do want. Or maybe it’s entirely due to banks restricting credit.
Anyway, start cranking out those Volts already.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Disclaimer: this is very crude analysis and highly open to improvement.
I don’t see styling playing the driving role in sales. It may be more a result of functionality considerations.
What makes hybrid vehicles sell well are DISTINCTIVE RESULTS, LARGE absolute and percent MILEAGE DIFFERENCES for the vehicle class at a REASONABLE (consumer willingness to pay) PRICE difference.
Results:
Strong hybrids sell well at reasonable prices, weak hybrids don’t, with hybrid sales percent of platform growth exceeding mileage difference growth at large absolute mileage differences.
SUVs can carry an additional 10% price premium on mileage improvements without degrading their share of platform sales.
If you want to sell many more hybrids.
1. Start with high mileage hybrids and improve their mileage as much as possible with as little change to price as possible.
2. SUVs command a price premium but make doing 1. harder. Keep them light.
3. Get costs down, always.
Background:
Compare EPA fuel economies of:
a. Prius Hybrid and Corolla
b. Camry Hybrid and Camry
c. Highlander Hybrid and Highlander
and consider their relative sales numbers and prices. Here we go:
Prius get 53% better milage than a corolla, 33% of the sales and costs 25% more than a Carolla.
Camry hybrid gets 36% better mileage than a camry, 8% of the sales and cost 26% more than a Camry.
Highlander hybrid gets 30% better mileage than a Highlander, 16% of the sales and cost 35% more than a Highlander (confusing with the L4 and V6).
Since the price difference is constant for the Prius and Camry we can make a statement about better mileage and sales. A 17% decline in mileage savings equaled a 25% decline in sales, holding price differences constant, meaning that for strong hybrid sedans, a 1% improvement in mileage will give you around a 1.47% improvement in the % of platform sales that are hybrids.
That also means that hybrid sales ratio of platform growth increases more than mileage improvement growth, which means that if you have a minimal absolute difference in mileage on the same platform, regardless of price difference, you will have effectively no sales, GMs exact experience with weak and monster truck/SUV hybrids. That can’t be good for recouping development and trim costs, but is an excellent way to shoot yourself in the feet.
Since the information above is publicly available, I am forced to conclude that GM’s past hybrid strategy was a willful and conscious attempt to make hybrids look bad so they wouldn’t have to make them. That strategy has been completely undercut by the success of strong hybrids.
We compare the
a. Fusion Hybrid and Fusion
b. Escape Hybrid and Escape
Fusion hybrid get 56% better milage than a Fusion, too early in release to tell on % of the sales and costs 40% more than a Fusion.
Escape hybrid gets 39% better mileage than a Escape, 8% of the sales and cost 45% more than a Escape.
So it boils down to Toyota wants to sell hybrids and is priced aggressively, Ford is ambivalent and enjoys charging more for the mileage improvement hybrids and GM actively doesn’t want to sell hybrids.
The Escape hybrid gets a similar mileage percent difference and sales percent, but at a higher percent price difference to the Camry hybrid, so Ford is able to charge more for the Escape hybrid the same mileage % improvement as the Camry hybrid without degrading the sales percentage.
The Fusion gets a better than Prius like gas mileage percent improvement over its platform gas counterpart, but charges a greater percent price difference for that mileage improvement, so expect the Fusion hybrid sales to be between 8% and 33% of the regular fusion sales. If it ends up being more or less than that range, than either my analysis is suspect or incomplete or Ford has discovered something new (good if > 33%, bad if < 8%) in their marketing. I predict that the platform share of hybrids for the Fusion would have been 37%, if they had named it a dedicated hybrid name, like the Nextus.
No, I didn’t look at the GM , Honda and other OEM products. How much free work do you think I’m going to do ?
July 18th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
[...] Poll: Should Hybrid Cars Have Distinctive Styling? [...]
July 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
NO, this adds a lot to final cost.
July 20th, 2009 at 9:59 am
In June, the Fusion hybrid was 11% of total Fusion sales (my prediction was betwen 8% and 33%, 37% if they had given it a dedicated name), so if it’s not too early to tell, it looks like Ford did something wrong with their marketing of the Fusion hybrid, to the detriment of hybrid sales.