Nissan has announced that it will be unveiling a global pure electric vehicle in Japan on August 2nd. The yet-to-be-seen 5 seat compact car will begin mass production in late 2010 and will be available in the North American market. It will have a 100 mile electric range. The image above is the mule using a Cube body, and has nothing to do with the final design. I had the chance to discuss this upcoming vehicle and strategy with Mark Perry who is Nissan’s director of product planning.
Other companies are doing gas plug-in hybrids and EREVs, but Nissan has put its money on the pure electric, why is that and what do you think of the Volt?
I only will talk about us. The whole issue on our mind is zero emissions. The only way you can achieve zero emission at the tailpipe is in a pure battery electric vehicle. You’re zero emission all the time, you don’t fall off the wagon after 12 miles or 40 miles. When you make that commitment you’re looking ahead not only to the regulatory pressure that’s coming but the consumer and environmental pressure that’s coming. To achieve zero emissions you have to do it with electrification.
Now you can still do fuel cells or plug-in battery electrics. Every manufacturer has those same two options. But fuel cells and hydrogen are a lot longer away than a vehicle you can plug into the existing electric grid.
I assume Nissan isn’t going to change its whole fleet into electric cars, so why not have a car in between? Obviously there are range limitations.
Again what you’re talking about is, he who wins in the zero emission race is he who gets his costs down and his manufacturing scale high. So how do you start, you start now. You make investments in assembly plants globally. Building hundreds of thousands of vehicles is what we’re setting out to do.
Now we’re not saying that the internal combustion engine is disappearing but long-term to achieve the 90% reduction in CO2 that all the policy makers, all the regulatory folks and the scientists are all calling for, the only way you can do it is through electrification. You cannot improve the combustion engine to achieve a 90% reduction in CO2.
There is also the rational issue and the emotional issue. The rational issue is 98% of the population drives less than 100 miles per day. That’s a fact. Volt has picked 40 because that number is 72 to 76%. So if I have 100 miles of range I’m more than covering people’s daily commuting and transportation needs and allowing them to charge overnight and become zero emission all the time.
The question always comes is this my primary or my secondary car? The answer is what’s your definition of your primary car? If your primary car is the vehilce you use every day you go back and forth to work in you do your chores and your shopping, then this is your primary car. The car you take on vacation or carry seven people or tow your boat with that’s your other car.
So you’re aiming at a very specific market with this vehicle?
Not a specific market, it’s the mass market.
What about range anxiety?
Thats a behavioral issue. People today are used to having no restraints. So you can buy as big a house as you want and spend as much money on credit cards as you want and continue to pollute and drive around in a 5000 pound vehicle with 350 miles of gasoline in your tank. Those things clearly are charging. We know from all the consumer research we have done that there are plenty of people that are looking for that alternative and want it, and are just waiting for somebody to come with a mass market affordable electric vehicle for them to drive. Not some neighborhood electric vehicle or something with 20 miles of range, but something that they can use every day. That’s what we’re looking to do.
+17
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:18 am)The pure electric vehicle, it is the way of the future. Simple, almost zero maintenance and efficient.. but yes, lots of range anxiety.
+4
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:20 am)Interesting marketing plan. Tow truck drivers around the country will develop similar marketing plans also. Such as extended flatbed trucks to carry 2 or even 3 of these vehicles back home for recharging.
I don’t think a vehicle like this will be mass market for a long time with only a ’100′ mile range. I put 100 in quotes because Lyle’s new car is supposed to have a 100 mile range and in reality, according to him, it has about a 70 mile range.
Snarky comments about my pessimistic attitude welcome………..
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:21 am)Given that real-world range of BEVs (i.e. the Mini E) is comghin in well under the car’s stated range, I think it’s pretty damn foolhardy to put all your eggs in the BEV basket.
Nissan’s view on range axiety also strikes me as very naive. I think Lyle will testify that it’s real and it won’t go away anytime soon.
But, that’s the beauty of the market. We’ll find out.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:26 am)I guess I do have to agree with his point that “range anxiety” is a behavioral issue. It is a good point. I am sure it can change but only over time and desire to want to change.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:26 am)I had a terrific laugh with “falling off the wagon at 12 to 40 miles”.
The content of the interview was very well explained. I wish Ford Motor would get someone who is that eloquent to explain what Ford is up to.
The big big BIG BIG problem with Nissan’s gamble here, is that it is going to eat them alive with very low depth of discharges, which will DEFINITELY have them replacing expensive packs FAR more often than they would ever want or conceive.
You are talking here about FAR, FAR DISTANCES which the American public is used to going in order to do just about anything outside of going to work.
Granted, going to work is what most Americans do for 5 days of the week. BEV’s may actually cause a more “provincial adaptation” for a few Americans to actually conform to the increasingly inopportune reductions in pack electric range.
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BUT HOW AMERICANS DRIVE, WILL EAT NISSAN ALIVE.
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The wise thing about EREV’s is that the pack is completely protected. Here in Austin, the last 28 days have averaged 103 degrees. Those Air Conditioners in BEV’s are going to drag down that AER by 40% to 50% when those BEV’s are stuck in 5pm traffic. That changes the game entirely for who is “right” for a BEV.
The air conditioning range reductions must be included here also for a proper representation of lowered BEV range with the Air Conditioner running on the highest setting, and with 1.5 minimum tons of cooling power, or it may not be safe.
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:27 am)The famous range extending trailer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:31 am)I like it. More options for the consumer.
Wind turbines, wheel generators, solar assist, and brake regen may one day combine to provide a 300 mile range. Until then it’s range anxiety with this EV Nissan.
The Volt is ahead of it’s time in this regard.
=D~
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:36 am)My take…even with improvements in batteries to extend the range for a given battery volume, range anxiety will always be a factor for some. How many is the question.
They’ll purchase based on the extended range, whatever it happens to be at the time, based on their usual use patterns…and take it to the limit every so often, or get caught away from home due to unexpected events (as happened with Lyle) with an inability to get a charge or a quick enough charge.
Perhaps once the manufacturers and others devise a reliable / affordable quick-charge infrastructure, pure BEVs will make sense for a larger share of the market.
+5
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:37 am)Not “snarky”.
You have hit the real issue. If they say it has a 100 mile range, they better mean that it will go 100 miles under any circumstances. Otherwise, the buyer will see it as a letdown and badmouth the car to everyone they talk to. And the second time they have to be towed, they will trade the car in, especially if it was the wife driving around with the kids in the car……….
Until really long range (250 miles +) battery packs become practical in both size and cost, I still think that the E-REV design makes the most sense at this time.
What is so strange is that for five out of seven days per week, this BEV car with this 100 mile range would work for me. Only then I would have to think about “this is Tuesday, so I have to use the other car”, but at 7:00 AM, that is just not what is on my mind. If that makes me lazy, so be it, but the car is supposed to work for me, not the other way around!
JMHO
NPNS
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:40 am)“You cannot improve the combustion engine to achieve a 90% reduction in CO2.” Although you can’t do it with an Auto cycle engine you can do it with a diesel cycle engine. Mercedes has their Urea injection system that eliminates CO2 out of their exhaust. All it is is Cow Piss so that can’t cost too much.
I don’t want my car to have a range leash attached. I want to know that I can always make for Mexico just in case without having to stop every 100 miles!
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:41 am)I agree with you… I find it strange that Mr. Perry is more concerned with an unnecessary set of environmental goals than he is with customer concerns. After all, Nissan has to sell a lot of these cars before the environmental benefits can be realized, and playing down the high price of a pure BEV, range anxiety and the vehicle’s ability to meet the customer’s needs isn’t going to increase sales.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:45 am)I think the range anxiety is secondary issue. There are lots of people (my wife) who never travel more than 70 miles per day. When our family goes for longer distance we normally are taking my car. In case family owns two cars there is always possibility of sharing.
I would stick to the automobile price issue. In my understanding the price was major braking factor for EV1
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:50 am)GM Volt Google search…
Results 1 – 10 of about 3,920,000 for GM VOLT. (0.09 seconds)
=D~
+7
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:53 am)The only argument I have to this is: They need to make the range longer in the future. 100 miles for normal people is fine. Since I am abnormal, 100 miles isn’t enough.
On after thought, there is no way my wife goes anywhere near 100 miles a day. A 5-seater EV with highway capability could work out nicely for her.
We can keep my ICE car for other stuff, but hopefully even that will turn into the Volt.
Herm, you are right. Range anxiety is not a good thing and will bother people. I hope Nissan makes their EV a nice looking vehicle and not have a look like those stupid NEVs.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:54 am)I’m glad to see that there is another major auto company out there that is going to put in real effort and bring a real car to market.
I can see having a 2 car home where one is BEV and one is EREV. However I can also see having a 2 car home where both are BEV and any time you want to go on a long distance trip you just pop by the car rental agency and pick yourself up what you need.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:57 am)Yes, as Herm said, zero maintenance and efficient. As Nissan’s Mr Perry said … there are plenty of people that are looking for that alternative and want it, and are just waiting for somebody to come with a mass market affordable electric vehicle for them to drive.
If Nissan can get their BEV to market in 2010 with 100 miles range and a reasonable price, there are a lot of people around here who will be interested in it.
-17
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:00 am)(click to show comment)
+5
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:03 am)Jim I said If they say it has a 100 mile range, they better mean that it will go 100 miles under any circumstances..
It may be that accurate metering will be sufficient. The driver wants to have good knowledge of the current state-of-charge, and a good projection of how many miles are left. For many of us, 100 miles will be more than enough, but we still don’t want to be caught by surprise, whether electric or gas.
The good part with gas is that I understand the fuel gauge.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:06 am)I haven’t seen it yet…but if it is real, and it is here first, they’ve got me. It fits my mantra, “any EV, with 4 seats, that I can service inside its electric range’
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:11 am)MDDave said I find it strange that Mr. Perry is more concerned with an unnecessary set of environmental goals
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Perhaps Mr Perry is thinking legal and regulatory rather than abstractly identifying with environmental goals. In particular, Mr Perry’s plans may have in mind the upcoming CAFE (really CO2) regulations. Mr Perry wants Nissan to be able to continue to sell profitable cars after 2015, and he has a good plan in mind to accomplish that.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:14 am)“Normal” commuting distances and “normal” trip lengths for doing other things seem to vary a lot by region of the country. In some places 100 miles is hardly anything, but in many other places, most destinations are much closer.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:15 am)GOOGLE FIGHT!
Chevy Volt vs Tesla Roadster …and the winner is?
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Chevy+Volt&word2=Tesla+Roadster
=D~
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:15 am)Yep, well said.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:16 am)One other thing.
Range anxiety is not at all a behavioral issue. With the Air conditioning dragging down AER drastically when you are repeatedly stuck in 5 pm traffic, and, as I mentioned in my above post that here in Austin, we have had the last 28 days at 103 degrees of temperature,
“Houston, we have a problem”.
There you (or your spouse) are with your kids in the car and, there has been an accident ahead of you with the outside temperature at 103 degrees. Roadway heat is far higher, and imposes higher energy consumption, not to mention the massive amount of additional heat no longer being diffused and coming out of all the ICE engines surrounding the BEV, increasing wattage demand for the AC somewhat more so.
The state of charge indicator is going down toward the “empty” section of the gauge.
These are scenarios that Nissan and all other BEV manufacturers must address. All along the Southern US, record temperatures are being broken every single day.
For the last 28 days, peak temperatures (at 5 pm) have been broken in Austin. There is a responsibility of the OEM to not only address this and properly represent these factors honestly and openly, but if they do not, there could be some very strong adverse situations they may be responsible for.
We have no choice when it comes to outside temperature.
We have no choice when there is a traffic jam, or you must go somewhere in an emergency for your children.
The laws for protecting children from the high Texas heat within a closed auto are specific and strict.
These things are not behavioral.
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:18 am)It looks to me that they are going after the commuter market.
+4
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:22 am)Dan, you hit the nail again. These are the types of scenarios I think of when I drive today and try to imagine what a pure electric would be like vs. an EREV like the Volt.
The person (or people) you mention above would be sweating not just from the HEAT of Austin, but from the WORRY that they are about to contribute to the traffic jam by running out of battery power.
+19
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:25 am)I think there are a lot more people out there than you give credit for that care about being emission free, that care about the environment over range anxiety.
They/we are willing to make a little sacrifice from time to time to back someone we believe in, to change now rather than ‘in the future,’ (we have said that for too long imo)…or at the very least make this their second car.
Range anxiety is not the retort to every competitor, it is not the sole defining measure of success or failure. If Nissan is out first with a ‘real’ 100MPC EV, at a decent price (35Kish) I’m pretty sure they are going to sell very well.
Personally for me, the environment, pollution, health>range anxiety…always will be. Good luck changing my mind, or anyone else who believes as I do. I’m going to support whatever gets to me first, Volt, I-MiEV, Nissan XXX, Ford, Chrysler, etc…I don’t care, then every subsequent car purchase will be the longest range BEV that makes the most sense ergonomically. (Note I said car, I don’t see any answer to ‘hauling’ issues with EVs…a EREV here (trucks/large SUVs/vans) makes a lot of sense to me)
I guess my point is that everyone is different, and right now, we just don’t know what potential buyers of EVs want, and more importantly what they will pay for, because we have nothing to go by…it would be nice if we did
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:27 am)Lots of “rationalizing” by this Nissan exec. He’s got to make his case because that’s the path they chose to take.
Nissan is not a big enough company to take on an EREV project. It takes a 100 year old company with the experience (both good and bad) of GM to create a car like the Chevy Volt.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:32 am)RB, The good thing about gas is that I can fill up just about anywhere and in less than 10 minutes.
EVs will need to do the same thing eventually before they gain wide adoption.
This is my 2¢ anyway.
+8
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:36 am)I think most of us can agree, although we have virtually no options to buy a EV at the moment, (BEV or EREV), that the rating system already needs a overhaul…or at least some kind of reasonable benchmarking system put in place.
In a ‘perfect world’ I’d like to see three ratings on any electric portion of range.
A) Conservative – the car is driven a combination of city/highway as conservatively as possible
B) Normalized – the car is driven like a regular human being, at or around the speed limit, keeping pace with traffic
C) Aggressive – the car is driven like you are 5 minutes late picking your kid up from school, or late to work
(…and we need all those numbers stated in optimal conditions, and under duress hot/cold)
That way, the buyer can ‘choose’ what he/she wants to get out of it…or at the very least can get a reasonable idea of the vehicles capabilities. Driver ‘mood’ seems to put a +/- 50% on electric range…and that is just too darn wide.
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:40 am)Tesla and Fisker are less than 10 years old.
I think they both have announced an EREV.
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:44 am)The magic of full EV with efficient regenerative braking is that these three ratings will tend to be very similar.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:45 am)I seldom see any comments here about battery cost for BEVs vs EREVs. My reasoning is that, lacking a “genset” for backup, a range of 100 miles is clearly marginal marketing-wise for a BEV, while 40 miles for an EREV is not at all marginal! I further reason that, simply put, the 100 mile BEV’s battery —being 2 1/2 times larger— will cost at least 2 1/2 times more than a 40 mile EREV’s battery. And it will weigh 2 1/2 times more, or about 2 1/2 x 400 lbs = 1,000 lbs!
We already know (GM admits it) that the Volt’s driving dynamics are affected by its 400 lb battery, even with its optimum low-c.g. placement. Can you imagine how a 1,000 lb battery would affect the handling of a small BEV? [Remember that the Tesla roadster has an extremely-underslung body, so low to the ground that's its a challenge for many people to climb into & out of, in order to minimize the adverse handling effects of its heavy battery. And that the Tesla model S sedan, for which handling is less important, still distributes its battery across the entire underbody as near the ground as possible for the same reason.]
So I see battery cost and mass as two strikes against a marginal 100 mi BEV …..and the third strike as lack of a backup propulsion means. Nissan, you’re destined to retire your BEVs to a “niche market dugout”! …..but thanks for trying out anyway, ’cause you’ll be a good “minor league” EV player!
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:49 am)Urea injection does not eliminate CO2 – it reduces NOx
And the catalyst where this takes place is quite expensive. Then you add in the injection system and a heating system to ensure the urea remains liquid at normal winter temperatures.
+4
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:49 am)Almost 500 days to go
I can see Nissan’s point – why bother spending valuable resources going for a transition technology like the Volt. Instead they have have chosen to aim straight at the end game.
100 miles may not be enough range in America (untill fast charging is commonly available), so i think that the Volt will be the biggest hit here. But in Europe i can see 100mile EV would be more than sufficiant.
Ultimately i think that both will be big sellers.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:52 am)Tesla has backed away from EREV.
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:54 am)Thanks Dave G. I don’t recall hearing that before.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:55 am)not really.. as you can see in the following link, speed has the biggest effect on range if you go faster than 50mph.. thus if you keep speed below that, range is very predictable and similar as you say.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:57 am)What I have a problem with is these terms “zero” or “pure”.
Most electricity comes from coal. And even if you got rid of coal, in order to handle the variable peak transients in electrical demand, natural gas is the only current viable solution. So we will not have a truely “zero” or “pure” solution for the next 30 years at least.
As for “most people”, I don’t believe anyone posting here represents the average consumer. The best gauge I have of “most people” is when I talk to friends and collegues, and most of them still have no idea what’s going on in this space.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:57 am)Right on! I put it this way, the barriers to widespread utilization of BEVs are (1) need specific energy of over 200 Wh/kg; (2) need cost of battery to be less than $400/kWh; and (3) need fast charging infrastructure – able to recharge at least at 60 kW so a 35 kWh charge would take 35 minutes.
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:58 am)Statik, I think I would buy the car based on “C”.
What is the worst range I can expect. Then everything else is better.
So if I can have 100 mile range while being an aggressive driver, (which I no longer am) that would almost work for me.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:05 am)Dan said:
“The big big BIG BIG problem with Nissan’s gamble here, is that it is going to eat them alive with very low depth of discharges, which will DEFINITELY have them replacing expensive packs FAR more often than they would ever want or conceive”
——–
Couple problems:
You can’t comment on the depth of discharges, or pack replacements until you know what percentage of the pack Nissan is going to use…seeing how they haven’t even shown us the car, we don’t know if they plan on using 50% of the pack or 90%.
The second problem is, facts don’t back you up here. For the Volt, the range is set up to be maximized often, ie) you are going to burn the whole range very often.
Under the, ‘average American driver, only travels 25 miles per day’ mantra, on most days (even if Nissan was allowing 100% pack usage), the ‘average’ American, on the ‘average’ day would only be using 25% of it. In these studies, how often does the average American drive 100 miles? Once a month? Twice? Some will drive more of course, but the game is overall averages…as you say, some will be plowing the A/C and only getting 50 miles.
Also, this ‘range anxiety’ everyone is fearful of, also reduces any chance of a ‘deep discharge’ and puts a emotional buffer on the battery (as well as whatever precautionary percentage Nissan as put on it)…the average person is unlikely to tap the last 10-15% of the pack.
I know for sure a ‘full discharge’ is likely never going to happen…or only once, because that means you are on the side of the road….but it is going to happen in the Volt thousands of times, the 50% usage of the pack isn’t ensuring anything special over the full BEV setup, that 50% is the maximum they think they can use to have it get to end of life acceptably.
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:10 am)The first time a BEV runs out of juice on the freeway, and, causes a massive traffic jam with all those other ICE vehicles just idling away making tons of extra CO2, then the argument for BEV looses a lot of steam if an owner does not keep it fully charged and perfectly-serviced at all times.
Environmental “positives” also go right out the window when a charge-depleted BEV is causing traffic jams due to a lack of EREV redundancy.
In addition, it is likely that a BEV owner will be cited by an officer immediately with a 300 dollar fine for running out of charge or, have a long term problem that should have been fixed for something like a “SERVICE BATTERY IMMEDIATELY” MIL (malfunction indicator light), causing a traffic jam.
Did you know that your PCM can turn off your Air Conditioner ON PURPOSE to force you to go get the car serviced?
This will also DEFINITELY happen when there is a BEV problem of nearly any kind. You will be without Air conditioning, which is a safety issue.
All these things are “crystal-clear” “cut and dry” industry-standard issues that all BEV OEM’s must deal with concretely, or, face serious public backlash.
Would you want to be stuck in a charge-depleted BEV on the freeway with a lot of highly agitated drivers behind you?
All these things supersede EREV-contrary argumentation.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:11 am)” I further reason that, simply put, the 100 mile BEV’s battery —being 2 1/2 times larger— will cost at least 2 1/2 times more than a 40 mile EREV’s battery. And it will weigh 2 1/2 times more, or about 2 1/2 x 400 lbs = 1,000 lbs!”
Not so Nasaman, note both the iMiev and the Volt use a 16kwh battery pack..
The Tesla Roadster uses a 53kwh pack that weighs 990lbs.
All these weight numbers change drastically with different battery types. In any case, I think that if placed low on the car (below the floorpan) all these heavy packs will be good for safety and stability. With proper suspensions these cars will feel like Go-Karts.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:12 am)From the article: Now we’re not saying that the internal combustion engine is disappearing but long-term to achieve the 90% reduction in CO2 that all the policy makers, all the regulatory folks and the scientists are all calling for, the only way you can do it is through electrification. You cannot improve the combustion engine to achieve a 90% reduction in CO2.
——————————————————————————-
The implication here is that no solution with an internal combustion engine can achieve 90% reduction in CO2, which is misleading.
Mark Perry, who is Nissan’s director of product planning, makes the point that 98% of the population drives less than 100 miles per day. This means an EREV-100 would eliminate 98% of all tailpipe emissions, and still allow people to go over 100 miles 2% of the time.
The other thing to remember is that the Volt runs on electricity, gasoline, and E85. Ethanol can’t replace 100% of our gasoline usage, but it can replace the leftover amount that an EREV-40 does not.
+10
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:13 am)It all depends on where you are. Here in Manitoba more then 98% of our electricity is renewable – mainly hydro. Our electricity is also the cheapest in North America. So please someone, anyone – bring out a reasonable EV or EREV that can stand up to our cold weather.
Something capable of pulling a 4 horse trailor would also be appreciated!
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:14 am)The famous “Long Cord” argument.. its a red herring.
If you are so worried about it, install solar panels and use them to recharge your BEV.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:14 am)I believe there’s another major reason why Nissan is initially taking a BEV approach ….avoiding embarrassment, which is still a heavily-weighted factor in all Japanese decision making. Nissan’s intellectual property lawyers & patent laywers would have definitely advised its Board that GM has EREV overwhelmingly-protected with patents (hundreds if not thousands). Nissan (or anyone else) would therefore have to license the use of numerous GM patents to go with an EREV design —or face massive lawsuits. I believe Mark Perry (Nissan’s director of product planning) would have been overruled by the Nissan Board even if he had presented an EREV design, because they wanted to avoid the huge costs, risks & embarrassment of attempting to circumvent GM’s EREV patents.
+6
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:15 am)Well, the coal/natural gas is a regional issue. Some of us live in places that are nuclear, hydro, and wind, and very little coal….like myself in Ontario.
And BEVs give you the option of being ‘pure’ (well, at least as much as possible) if you really want to be (if you can access solar)
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:18 am)I like what Mr. Perry says. Any hybrid has the complex problem of integrating the two power sources. The BEV’s will be a joy for us old hot rodders.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:21 am)(Intellectual property rights/fights is also a reason Elon Musk defends Tesla’s approach.)
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:21 am)One big problem. It would be fun watching the AVERAGE Joe/Jane back that thing in or out of their driveway or to park it nearly anywhere. Judging by the photo, the driver would find it difficult to see the genset with the mirrors and not much of it while looking over the shoulder while backing up.
Having said that, I would still consider it with a 100 mile BEV if the total cost was a lot lower than the Volt.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:28 am)Sorry Petit but do people get tickets where you live for running out of gasoline?
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:36 am)This is good news to me because I think the more players we have working to electrify the automobile, the quicker the costs will come down. Good Luck, Nissan.
Personally, I need the range above 300 miles before I would consider buying a pure EV. It’s not range anxiety, it’s pure physics – you can’t squeeze 250 miles out of a 100 mile range and I just can’t afford to have 2 cars. While I’m sure it will be perfect for many other people, I need the range extender built in the Volt.
+7
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:39 am)Most people pull off the road when they start to lose propulsion…and if traffic is stopped, it is not that hard to push a 2,500 lb car 10 feet off the road. I think most would realize to get off the road if the car is screaming less than 5 miles left.
I seriously doubt there are going to be any $300 fines at all, no more than a standard ICE on the side of the road…and it would have to be abandoned to get it.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:39 am)Reply to Jorge
I don’t think your running out of gas and getting a ticket holds water. In my many miles of driving I will make this WAG, Less than 1 in 100,000 gas powered cars run out of gas on any given day. Reason, you can easily stop a gas station and buy more in a very few min. The same can not be said for a BEV and as a result owners will end up pushing the limit and end up stranded much more often.
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:43 am)Speed and auxillary influence (A/C, heat, etc) are the biggest factors to range.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:44 am)Nissan can NOT create a 100 mile range BEV for $35K, or the iMiev would be that cheap.
If an automaker isn’t offering high mileage ICE’s and hybrids nearterm, they will lose marketshare to those who do.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:48 am)Exactly, the buyer can decide on a car, confident in the minimum result he/she will achieve. As it stands, nobody believes anybody on range atm, and so far, that is the right instinct.
-14
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:48 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:51 am)I don’t understand why you think that GM has the EREV market all to itself. GM did not invent the concept. It’s actually been around in a prototype form from various manufacturers for a number of decades. In fact diesel electric propulsion used by various vehicle types for providing locomotion works under the same principal but sans batteries. Also as you are well aware patents are only covered under in the country they are filed in and therefore could be used anywhere else in the world (but I digress). The point I want to make is that it is possible to build an EREV to compete with the Volt without infringing on any patents GM has. Also being first to market doesn’t mean success or longevity. Anybody remember AOL, Netscape and US Robotics.
-10
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:52 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:54 am)Remember, the Chevy Volt is not a hybrid.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:57 am)Reply to old man
I was actually replying to Petit who said that people will get tickets for running out of juice in their batteries on the highway.
+9
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:01 am)What you’ve created is a here is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy . It is any argument that claims because the solution is not “perfect” it shouldn’t be implemented. It’s very common in policy making and politics in general. A big pet peeve of mine. Yes a BEV with a lower range then an equivalent gas vehicle would be more likely to run out of fuel on the road. However, these issues are easily mitigated, just like they are for gas vehicles. ( AAA will get charger trucks. ) In addition, I imagine any fuel loss from slowed gas vehicles due to a BEV running low on charge would be offset by many BEVs occupying spaces in traffic jams caused for other reasons. The BEVs using barely any energy at all while stopped. Electrification of the automobile will result in less energy used, and less CO2 released overall. It’s not perfect, no one ever said it was.
+8
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:02 am)Its been said over and over and over again.
BEV with electricity from coal plant is still better than a gas car.
And it is easier to convert a few coal plants to wind than all the cars – so you make the car electric and then as you improve your power plant the benefit will automatically flow.
Ofcourse the Seattle utility is 100% carbon neutral. So here I’ll actually have 0 emissions on a daily basis.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:04 am)Desperately wanting some thing to be a fact does not make it a fact. I will be happy to join your bandwagon if you can show me this easy to manufacture, long range, long lasting, small, light weight, low priced battery, that can be recharged quickly and nearly anywhere.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:05 am)I agree. I’m an aggressive driver even when I don’t have to be. My concern is just getting from A to B in the fastest time possible. Sometimes there’s no reason other than my competitive urge to “win” – if that makes any sense. So yes, cars should be rated for multiple styles of driving.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:08 am)Dan these are great points. I get so mad when many days I get caught behind this clown with a Toy P who must want to brag that he gets great MPG. He takes off so slow from the light that only 1 or 2 other cars get to go. Really burns me up it backs up traffic and all of the rest of us burn far more extra gas because of this clown. I know the little Toy is slow but I have driven one it is not this slow.
Also anyone else think we need to ban cars from the Xway that can’t go at least something like 0 to 60 in less then 9 seconds. (I have no idea what the right number would be)
Cars that can’t get up to speed are a danger getting on the Xway.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:10 am)Yes if they are blocking traffic.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:12 am)Heard of BYD ?
BTW, Nissann is a large company and they are nearly 100 years old (started in 1914). Nissan is bigger than Fiat & BMW for eg. They are the world’s 7th largest.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2008/industries/19/index.html
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:14 am)Point taken —GM certainly does NOT, or want to have, the EREV market all to itself.
And you’re right that the basic EREV concept has been around for a long time. But as a person who holds several patents I assure you an idea or a concept itself is not patentable ….only the implementation means of the concept can be patented. And you can be certain GM has filed hundreds (if not thousands) of patents with specific implementation claims that represent a formidable “Mount Everest” of rigorous barriers to anyone trying to get around them without risking horrendously-expensive infringement suits (or entering licensing agreements with GM)!
Some people/companies will elect to pursue EREV designs —Nissan & Tesla have chosen NOT to do so ….(so far).
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:15 am)Yes, what I meant is the shape of the Energy required / Speed curve in those 3 circumstances may tend to be identical. (no A/C, heating, towing, etc).
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:16 am)Truely sorry! My misunderstanding.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:16 am)My electric motorcycle uses 100% wind power, thanks to a subscription plan through my regional utility which both my house and work uses, from a local wind farm, so with minimal transmission losses. So yes, I’m pretty much emissions free at both the vehicle level and at the plug, right this second and every day.
You have no idea how good that feels. All those oil wars with ourt kids getting killed, that massive federal debt that’ll hold back our economy and that we’re shoveling onto our kids, grandkids and so on. That’s all your fault, not mine.
Oh, and BEV with electricity from coal plant/national mix is still less emissions than a gas car and can only get cleaner.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:17 am)It is really even worse then that. If you know your car can only go max 70 miles then how many people would go more then 50 mile or only 25 miles from home.
Mot many people use even close to 100% of the gas in the tank before they fill up. And you can fill up with gas very quickly.
to say that 98% of people go less then 100 miles, so we can just build a car with a max range of 100 miles will be good for them. Is way off base. You would need at least 150 mile range at the end of Battery life not at the start.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:19 am)The first time a more efficient gasser runs out of gas on the freeway, and, causes a massive traffic jam with all those other ICE vehicles just idling away making tons of extra CO2, then the argument for more efficient gassers loses a lot of steam if an owner does not keep it fully gassed and perfectly-serviced at all times.
You see how ridiculous your argument is?
I’m trying very hard to be very nice about this.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:22 am)Nothing against BEVs, they are simple and would be wonderful, but the are very unlikely to be the future. In the Department of Energy estimate of what percentage of vehicles would fall into what categories in 2020, BEVs came out at an effective zero percentage.
The reason for this is simply cost. A battery is very expensive to build but very inexpensive to run. A fuel tank is very inexpensive to buy but expensive to fill. Unless you are using the battery pack fully every day the cost of the pack simply becomes prohibitive. Battery costs will come down but not fast nor far enough, at least for the next 15 years or so. If and until they do, what we have is an application of the 80/20 rule where you get 80% of the benefit from the first 20% of the range, and BEVs will be for those people who are willing to pay a huge premium to live with a lot of inconvenience.
This is why the DOE thinks PHEV10s, PHEV20s, and PHEV40s will make up the bulk of electrified vehicles. IOW vehicles like the Volt, the Prius, and even the hybrid Escalade.
As for emissions, a Volt running on biofuel would be a zero emission vehicle. For that matter a Malibu running on biofuel would be a zero emission vehicle. And this is without any range anxiety. Since we have all other factors that we need we are just one scientific breakthrough — using a microbe to extract sugars from the surrounding protective molecules — away from biofuel becoming a very viable and cost effective alternative fuel source. (Note that Berkeley Labs has just found a way to have microbes turn simple sugars into jet fuel, so the applications of biofuels seem limitless).
Finally, as for maintenance, the advantage of BEVs is tempered by the fact that ICE cars don’t require much maintenance. They are largely maintenance free now. An oil change every year or so and that’s about it. If you read the cost comparisons studies this is what jumps out at you.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:22 am)Finally someone who knows how to talk to press and explain the rational well.
Ofcourse BEV with 100 miles range is not for everyone – but then there won’t be enough BEVs manufactured to sell to everyone for a long time. Not everyone world thinks and acts the same.
I’d be perfectly happy with a BEV – with 100 mile range. I hardly ever drive more than that in a day – and have NEVER driven more than that without some pre-planning. If we need to go more than 100 miles, we will take our gas car.
Every new generation of EV will have better range going forward …
Since Nissan will sell the cars first in Seattle (may be among other cities) – I’ve a good chance of buying this as my first EV.
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:25 am)Ethanol is a cruel joke – we are literally burning some poor family’s food.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:25 am)Range may vary and depends mostly on driver behavior. If Lyle wants more range, he can stay off of high speed roads and reduce the pressure of his right foot on the go pedal. It really is that simple and totally within his control.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:25 am)Completely agree. I’d also say that they won’t so they won’t. Which is not to say that hybrids won’t become mainstream.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:26 am)EREV will hang on longer than many of you seem to think, at least regionally.
It is relatively easy to say “a BEV which can stand up to our cold winters” (in snow country), but it’s likely to be very difficult to do. Using stored electrical energy to generate heat is massively inefficient. I predict that an EREV of some description (even one in which the genset cannot fully replace the output of a depleted battery) will almost have to be used in the high latitudes, at least until the next major technology change comes along.
Of course, you’d still be emissions-free for around half the year.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:26 am)I don’t see any difference in the case of being stuck into traffic Jam under 103 degree between a BEV, EREV or full ICE. Energy to keep A/C turned on has to come from somewhere, batteries or fuel. If both are empty… you get stuck the same way, isn’t it?
I believe BEV vendors would need to supply some camomilla or Prozac for the worst cases in order to address all this “anxiety” properly…
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:27 am)Other mini E owners report a higher range than the manufacturer claim, so I’d like to know where you get your numbers from. Range varies, mostly based on owner behavior. A BEV’s actual range relative to its rated range tells you far more about the driver’s behavior than it does about the vehicle.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:35 am)That’s why you want the soon to be mandated extra window tinting, as well as the low energy solar roof panel powered vehicle venting option.
Or move to the mountains or the oceans, where the year round climate is more moderate, or at least less hot. It used to be that humans were adaptable and could do what made sense. When did we turn into whining do-nothings?
I do agree that A/C puts a huge hit on vehicle efficiency, which is why avoiding situations and settings where it seems necessary, when possible, is to be commended as plain old horse sense.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:36 am)But America is not the world my friend. And reality looks very different in Europe an Japan…
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:39 am)Ethanol certainly has some real world devestating consequences to the poor…and more importantly to me being able to buy a dozen cobs of corn out of the back of some farmer’s truck for $2.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:39 am)Dorp7:
Learn to relax during your commute. You’ll live longer (this has absolutely nothing to do with the probabilities concerning accidents vs driving style and everything to do with stress vs health).
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:44 am)I made a comment in a thread up top that EREV would be the norm up North where even a small genset would be needed as a source of heat.
This same type of vehicle is likely to be the norm down South where (at 100 degrees and 100% humidity) the A/C is part of your life-support system.
Even a minimal EREV (in which the genset would not be powerful enough to fully replace a depleted battery) would get your family out of the sweltering traffic-jam scenario.
+4
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:50 am)Actually, the i-MiEV is that cheap…it is only hella expensive in Japan, where there is about 15-17K worth of subsidies.
Mitsu announced pricing for the UK of “somewhere between £20,000 and £25,000,” on May 16th, which translated to $30,000 to $37,000 (fair disclaimor, the USD got SMOKED shortly after, it works out at $32,000 to $40,000 in today’s conversion)
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/16/imiev-coming-to-uk-in-november-for-20-000-25-000/
Regardless, the Volt and the i-MiEV have the same size pack, so you are looking at the same raw cost there…but the i-Miev has no ICE components to add, no major engineering costs (as a BEV is a very simple thing), rides on a smaller/cheaper platform, already exists as a production car, and Mitsu has no middle man on the pack…they make them themselves.
Whatever cost/price you come up with for the Volt, the Mitsu has to be at least 5K+ cheaper on the same scale…now whether or not the Volt is better, or will be more successful that is certainly wide open for debate.
I think Nissan could easily come to market with a 35K, 100 mile electric Cube if they wanted to. Again, do they want to? I don’t know, guess we will find out soon enough (maybe Auguest 2nd?)…but they could.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:51 am)I like Nissan’s vision. This is what it takes to compete today.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:03 am)Total aside, I have no ‘angle’ here on BEV/EREC/ICE, just curious
I wonder what the draw is on a highly efficient cooling system/condusive environment in maintaining a ambient interior temperature. I know it is a ‘mother’ to get 100 degrees down to 75, but once achieved, what is it to maintain?
ie) if it is 95 degress outside, and 75 inside, how much juice to maintain that per hour in a average size sedan, with decent tinting?
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:04 am)Ethanol as it stands today is not viable, in my opinion. The hope is that a way will be found to make it from cellulose; farm waste (for the most part) which does not compete with food production.
There is also the oil-from-Algae research to consider, too; the future may well be diesel (though you can’t tell that to most Americans at this time).
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:04 am)gah -1 for spelling
(sorry Don, lol)
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:05 am)I believe there is a strong market for this kind of car. I do not believe that it will be a “mainstream” market for the foreseeable future.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:09 am)ahah, no of course it’s an “EREV”, did I learn the lesson from the marketing dpt right?
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:15 am)That wide range of outcome should then be reflected on (current) ICE MPG stickers as well (not just BEVs). No? If not, electric vehicles would be at a huge disadvantage.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:15 am)Or by the time the Volt hits the market the price of gas will be so high it will be already history.
I agree on Nissan on this point, The whole story about range anxiety is legitimate while you can afford to have much more range for less money, but when there is no alternative any more, the only solution will be EV and you will have to cope with the drawbacks…
The only question is when will that happen?
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:16 am)the VOLT is lighter than TESLA Reggie!!! c’mon man! research!
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:19 am)Whenever I read the BEV vs EREV type of thread, I cannot help but think of the “AREV” I proposed here a long time ago.
I’ve already alluded to it above as a “minimal EREV.”
AREV would stand for:
Augmented
Range
Electric
Vehicle
Such a vehicle is basically a ‘split the difference’ approach. It would have a larger battery pack and smaller engine than the Volt. I’m guessing AER in the neighborhood of 100 (78 “real”) miles.
Since there is no attempt to fully replace the power available from a depleted battery, the generator can be run, if necessary, to augment the battery’s range. Or, if you get stuck out somewhere, letting the car sit on the side of the road (or drive very slowly) would partly re-charge the pack so that you could make it to the next charging point. (In bumper-to-bumper traffic, you would be driving pretty slow anyway).
As already mentioned, the generator would be a source of heat in cold climates, and would run your AC in hot ones. Unlike the Volt, the engine rpm would not follow the load, but would run (even at a stoplight) at the most efficient speed. Unlike the Volt, the battery would do more ‘buffering,’ partially charging/discharging to greater depth than possible with current batteries.
I’d look for someone to try this at about Volt Gen III time (when batteries are smaller, lighter, less expensive and more powerful).
I think the future AREV would be a larger market segment than the current (mostly Japanese) conception of the 100 mile BEV, if it this range is still offered at that time.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:20 am)A BEV would put less stress on a battery than the Volt does, so more of the battery’s capacity can be used. A BEV Volt should get over a 60 mile range, so a 100 mile battery would only need to be about 60% larger (or 1.6 times as large). That is, if you believe the 40 mile AER for the Volt, which with the high speed limits around here I doubt I would get.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:21 am)If the overall battery capacity is the same as the Volt, I wonder how much of the battery’s state of charge will be used to squeeze out 100 miles of range? 0 to 100%, versus 30%-ish to 80%-ish? As a result, how long will it last? It seems here that Japanese manufacturers are now sacrificing longevity to reduce price, a strategy American manufacturers used years back… leading to disastrous results.
And, realistically the range will likely be closer to 70 miles according to Lyle’s real-world experiences with his 100-mile electric Mini.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:24 am)Good point.. that actual trailer had some fancy automatic wheel steering system to handle just that problem.. it did not handle like a regular trailer.
How about this?.. do not allow the trailer link to pivot and use a single castering wheel on the trailer
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:27 am)Bio-fuels can be a good option when issued from second and third generation. But they are definitely not the answer to the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel
In my opinion, the energy problem has to be solved from multiple fronts:
1. Enhance efficiency of all kind energy consuming device
2. Source energy in an eco-system friendly way
3. Teach ppl that energy is… precious
and last but not least…
4. Teach spoiled ppl to be happy with less
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:27 am)Lyle, Why didn’t you ask about their partnership with Better Place? They are set to provide hundreds of thousands of vehicles for this project. Why not a mention?
My feeling is that he knows all about range anxiety but is holding his cards close to his vest.
I see it going down where the model is demonstrated in Israel, North California, Hawaii, Denmark, Australia, etc. and the U.S. is almost going to have to adopt a similar concept or be left behind. There are rumors that China is close to making a decision about joining the list of countries. If that happens, what will the U.S. do? Keep talking about hybrids? I hope not.
I would have liked to hear Mark Perry’s comments about their swap-out designs. They are in an advanced design stage at this point.
To me, 100 miles without swap-out in the U.S. is almost useless, unless there is more than one car in the garage. Can the masses afford such an expensive toy in this economy? I believe Nissan, with their extremely gifted CEO, Carlos Ghosn, is also well aware of this. Why else would he be working so closely with Shai Agassi? I’m guessing Carlos is working his engineers very hard to get these EVs ready for market, hoping his competition wastes even more time with hybrids and hydrogen.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:29 am)I dont fully agree on the huge energy hit of a BEV AC.. perhaps for the old belt driven compressors.
Insulation, thermal window tinting and an efficient variable compressor will result in lower power consumption that many people expect.
Dont forget a 5000 btu AC consumes less than 500watts.
-9
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:29 am)I find this whole electric wind farm thing a from of greenwashing.
The word “farm” evokes founds of nature and happiness. You’re not getting your electricity delivered on your own personal power lines. Realistically, the wind farm ties into the same electrical grid as coal and natural gas-fueled power plants.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:30 am)They are going after the 2 car home market.
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:31 am)Funny, I drive in a similar manner in my Tacoma in the interest of better economy, and found that driving 65 (or less) on the freeway and taking off smoothly and slowly from lights and STOP signs has upped my average from 25 mpg to 32 mpg on a good old-fashioned ICE – saving me about $20/month on my gas bill. So contrary to your argument, people like me probably save you gas when you’re not slamming your gas petal to the floor as soon as the light turns green (only to waste it when you pass me minutes later to get where you’re going 10 seconds faster)… Cars that can’t get up to speed aren’t the problem – disrespectful drivers are, from the ones who pull in front of you knowingly driving 20 under the limit to the ones that are doing 10 over the limit in the slow lane to get around the “slower” traffic in the fast lane.
But as to your issue above, most BEVs will alleviate that problem due to instant torque – every EV I’ve driven, all 3 of em, have taken off much more quickly than a Pruis…, and that will only improve with time.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:32 am)You would think the EREV serial patents must have run out since the 1920s.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:32 am)Pure EV is the best. I have never heard of a Tesla owner complaining about range anxiety. It just doesn’t exist on this 220 mile range EV using cheap, proven and readily available supply of Lithium computer notebook batteries. If Nissan builds theirs with this magical 100 mile range they will induce a mild range anxiety, I would suggest 200 mile range and just eliminate the anxiety all together. Most likely done for cost reasons only. Go Nissan Go. GM makes another mistake, just call the Volt and EV-2plusGas.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:34 am)“I like what Mr. Perry says. Any hybrid has the complex problem of integrating the two power sources. ”
This is true both for hybrids & EREVS, but the important thing to realize is that “the complex problem” really only has to be solved ONCE …..future similar drive trains should only require refinements to the original design (e.g., as for the several generations of Toyota’s Prius).
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:35 am)I agree. More power to them. Sorry, no pun intended.
BTW, I just heard a cool feature on NPR about Bastille Day. They said that the French are so involved with their food culture that many of their common figures of speech are related thereto.
When they are out of options, and have used up all of their resources, they say the French equivalent of:
“The greeen beans are all gone.”
When we might say “The die is cast.”, they say “The carrots are cooked.”
When somebody tells a dumb joke, or makes a silly statement (see above), they say:
“There’s a hair in the soup.”
Words to live by, LOL. All applicable somehow to GM-Volt.com, IMHO.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:36 am)I don’t pretend to know anything about electric car technology, and I certainly didn’t read all of the above comments so I apologize in advance if I’m being redundant or misinformed. Has anyone seen Who Killed the Electric Car? This technology already exists, longer than 100 mile range batteries already exist. Electric cars have already been tested by consumers, who responded with a unanimous ‘we love it.’ I find it very interesting that one of the companies promoting an electric car is called Tesla. Does anyone know who Nikola Tesla was and what outstanding developments he contributed to science and technologies?
San Francisco busses have been electrically powered for years, and SF is one of the cleanest cities in the world.
In response to zero emissions issues, has anyone looked into global warming theories beyond what corporate and mainstream news has told them? We are by far the smallest emitters of CO gasses in the world. Of course we should cut down on emissions from our cars and coal plants, that’s a given. However, we shouldn’t allow it to drive decisions about progression into greener energy developments. Especially when green energy technology already exists, and conventionally oil based transport is quickly becoming obsolete. Don’t even get me started on air travel! Think Magnetic Levetation Technologies, which have already been implemented in Japan.
There are political reasons behind a lot of stagnant ideas. I’m very curious to see what the government will do with GM now that they are in control of it. Will they have a GM electric car renaissance in the shadow of the Cap and Trade Bill?
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:37 am)that’s corn ethanol, a really lousy sellout to the corn lobby. cellulistic ethanol is a whole other ballgame. Don’t bash ethanol because congre$$ sold us out.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:37 am)I agree that BEVs are much more likely to be towed than ICE cars or EREVS. Especially at the beginning when we’re still dealing with relatively low ranges, and before people adapt to how many miles = how much charge. And, unlike an ICE car, you can’t get fuel from someone else, or carry it to your car.
I also agree that while most people will have the intelligence to pull over before they run out of charge, I’m sure there will be some idiots who don’t. And they will block traffic and be road hazards.
However, I would imagine that those are (mostly) the same people who do other stupid things while driving and wind up causing accidents in other ways. There are many ICE drivers who block traffic and cause traffic jams.
Unfortunately, we can’t make cars that are idiot proof. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have cars. SImilarly, just because some idiot will probably run out of charge in the middle of the highway, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have BEVs.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:38 am)I think “Chevy Volt” is more likely to be searched…
“gm-volt.com” comes up as the second of about 2,660,000 for chevy volt. (0.08 seconds)
The first is Chevy’s own site at http://www.chevrolet.com/experience/fuel-solutions/electric/
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:39 am)The Volt is a stopgap car. Nissan and other pure BEV jump past the stopgap, directly to the end result. Sure not everyone is ready for that step, they want the comforts they have grown accustomed to in the past. For them the Volt is a perfect option.
For those ready to embrace a pure BEV, cars like the Nissan will be perfect option. Bravo to them for their vision.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:42 am)Ah, Herm, I think that you’re a bit too optimistic about power output from state-of-the-art solar panels. The Prius has them on the roof, and all they can do is power a small circulation fan. As of July 2009, power produced from residential solar panels averaged 36.36¢ per kWh (www.solarbuzz.com/SolarPrices.htm). That’s not just a little more that what residential commercial power costs, it is WAY MORE, especially in some areas such as Manitoba noted above, or Seattle (where I live).
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:43 am)what if for whatever reason, emergency or anything, your wife has to drive your BEV for a long drive….RANGE ANXIETY is primary reason for BEVs….there is no fast charge for BEV technology available yet…
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:44 am)I like this rating system suggestion. This idea is an evolution of the common argument brought up against EPA window stickers and why they were revised for 2008. No one can tell you exactly what your mileage will be in the real world; the EPA numbers simply help you compare two different vehicles using a standardized test (apples to apples). I guess it would always be better to at least rate electric cars in a worse-case scenario (fast highway speeds, a/c use, heavy acceleration, temperature extremes) and then be pleasantly surprised when the car goes further than expected on a charge. Statik’s multi-scenario rating system really makes sense for EV’s. Couldn’t this technically be done on ICE cars as well? Why isn’t it already implemented today? Perhaps the additional testing takes too much time/money?
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:44 am)Sometimes it is fun to consider “What if.”
What if Lithium battery specific energy is increased to 240 Wh/kg? That would mean you could put a 32 kWh battery in the Volt without increasing its current weight.
What if by doubling the specific energy, you halved the cost per kWh, thus the 32 kWh battery would not increase the cost or weight of the Volt.
What if instead of using 50% of the initial capacity, GM used 70% of the 32 kWh available, thus the operating window would be 22 kWh, enough to travel 90 miles in AER in the real world.
Now that would be a fantastic car for $34,000.
I know… what if pigs could fly…
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:45 am)The 1st BEV to run out of electricity and tie up traffic will make the 5 o’clock news. The 1 millionth ICE to run out of gas and tie up the worlds most congested freeway, once again, will get dozens of annoyed stares. Welcome to the future of personal transportation.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:46 am)I like this option too. Give me 100 + miles of range and a small, light, and simple engine/ generator that can charge the battery in an emergency. Kind of like the small outboard motor on a sailboat. It won’t get you anywhere fast but it will get you home.
Running out of battery power becomes a small problem instead of a large problem. Towing is not required. Range anxiety is reduced.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:46 am)For my 5 day a week routine, I NEVER drive more than 20 miles a day. Even on the weekends I rarely drive more than 40. I could use a car like the Nissan, and never give a single thought about “range anxiety”. If you have a more unpredictable schedule or longer commutes it might be a concern but for people like me, its not even an issue. As much as people like to push the term around here to justify the Volt, range anxiety just isn’t a concern at all for many people.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:49 am)ahhh!!! 2 car mentallity… why buy BEV for a second car if you have an EREV? pure BEVs are more expensive than EREV…and why rent if you have an EREV… 50MPG in range extender mode…
for me EREV does it all…
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:50 am)In the early 2000′s what was the DOE’s prediction for year 2009 hybrids, year 2010 EREV’s , and year 2013 BEV’s?
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:50 am)Our kids are getting killed these days in Afghanistan. Not much oil there, the last I heard. Having said that, nothing would make me happier than NOT sending money to the mullahs, sheiks and dictators that, for some unknown reason, all won the geographical oil lottery. Oil is useful for a whole lot of good things (the Modern Marvels episode about oil was a real eye-opener), but like drugs, it also creates palaces, power, pollution and weapons.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:50 am)The Nissan BEV needs the Better Place battery swap and/or a comparable road service from AAA (in Canada that’s CAA) and until that’s in place the Volt solves the distance etc. problems and can shed the motor when the swap and fast charge infrastructure is adequate including its own roadside service program. Better Place, Coulomb and others have fast charge devices that could easily be more plentiful than roadside phones used to be on detroit freeways. Toronto canada has an agreement in place already and the Detroit/Windsor to Montreal corridor will be BEV friendly in two shakes of a lambs tail as mom used to say.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:53 am)If you know that you are going to be traveling more than 100 miles, you’d start the engine almost as soon as you hit the road; the little generator could ‘stretch’ that 100 mile range perhaps as far as 200 miles, depending on the type of driving. It opens a lot more possibilities.
If the engine is designed to run constantly at one speed, it can be much lighter, cheaper and simpler than the Volt’s. It also opens the field for engines which would be difficult to throttle (a teeny-tiny turbine would be epic, but unlikely for cost reasons).
If the job of storing the energy is separated from the job of buffering engine power (and regeneration), something like an advanced energy-channel battery or ultra capacitor could allow a surprisingly tiny engine to give Volt-like results. The energy storage battery you plug in would then have a similar life as in a BEV.
(sigh). Alas, it all takes time.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:54 am)There are approximately 300 million people living in the US, at the moment. They can’t all fit in the areas with a more “moderate climate.”
And what do you suggest we do about Mexico? Or other tropical countries? They have cars too.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:56 am)Yes, any patents issued that long ago have expired ….but that has NO EFFECT on GM’s ability to file legitimate new patent/claims on their implementation of the concept! For example, torque converter automatic transmissions were patented >40 years before Saturn filed (& was awarded) more than 150 patents on its acclaimed automatic transmission employing torque conversion & planetary gears like its early predecessors had!
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:57 am)Pigs can fly, but usually do so in Coach.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:58 am)Lots of arguments against a BEV.
The one in particular I see all the time, other than Range Anxiety, is “The electricity comes from a coal fired plant…”
For a BEV, there’s a give and take. Look at the emissions an ICE or even the Volt will emmit in Genset mode. Both instances run in variable speeds which means that at any given time, more often than you think, the ICE will be running in a poor efficiency range. An ICE has only one narrow rpm band of best efficiency, thanks Dan P for that tidbit. So we have “millions upon millions” (said by Carl Sagan) variable speed polluter compared to a constant speed and efficiently tuned Coal fired power plant that they now have as “Clean Burn”. So which would you rather have? You have to start somewhere right?
As for range anxiety? The dude said it best…
“Thats a behavioral issue. People today are used to having no restraints. So you can buy as big a house as you want and spend as much money on credit cards as you want and continue to pollute and drive around in a 5000 pound vehicle with 350 miles of gasoline in your tank. ”
It’s going to be a culture change. Sure many of you here have more than 50 miles one way, you make up the 10% of the sample population, but that’s why you are here in the Volt site because it CAN go beyound but on inefficient petrol. Around here where I am, I know nobody that has a commute more than 35 miles one way. In our building I think I can safely say that 100% of the people can make their commute round trip with a “Real” 100MPC BEV.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:58 am)Welcome aboard Jordan. Great to see you commenting.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:59 am)Darly Siry, the former chief marketing officer at Tesla, has said the issue was expertise. Tesla engineers understood motors and batteries, but engines and other traditional car components were a completely different beast. (If you remember they tried to get GM to help them with their transmission). I don’t think IP had much to do with Tesla’s decision.
I’d have to disagree that battery costs are never mentioned. In fact if you look at the top of this page you’ll find cost being raised in the first few threads. But yes, some people just don’t get how expensive batteries and the electronic controls cost. You’re right on pont that the real issues for BEVs are cost, cost, cost.
Weight on the other hand should not be a big issue. The Volt pack does weigh 400 pounds but a good bit of that is the housing and, equally importantly, the Volt also needs an ICE and all its accompanying components, I’d think you could triple the pack size and, using a lighter housing, still end up with about the same weight as you do in the Volt.
Note that one big advantage of a BEV is space. You get a lot of extra space in the same envelope if you lose the ICE.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:59 am)A stalled car is a stalled car. Matters not if it’s powered by gas, battery, or cow manure.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:59 am)Then the BEV100 is for you (I doubt a shorter range BEV will be seriously offered for use at highway speeds).
It wouldn’t be for me, I drive over 40 miles a day, and sometimes farther.
We need more for our transportation toolbox than a screwdriver; we need all approaches for electrification to succeed.
I don’t deny that many people will be happy with such a car, but I doubt very much that it will represent “the mainstream” as the Nissan rep seems to think.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:59 am)In that light, the EREV may be the only option for efficiency-minded single-car households, while those who are fortunate enough to be able to afford/justify two cars may opt for a BEV and something else.
BTW, Mark Perry really seems to have a realistic outlook on the role that BEVs can play, and also to what the future is going to look like.
I wonder what kind of roof-racks and trunk/hatchback/wagon options their BEV will have?
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:59 am)ICE cars usually have at least a 300-350 mile range. That gives you a much larger margin of safety.
Also, if you live in one of those areas where this is likely to be a problem, I would assume that you keep your gas tank half full. That would be much more difficult with a 100 mile range BEV.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:02 am)Possiby, but I wouldn’t buy a BEV because my view is that, lacking any alternative if the car can’t reach a charging station, I would argue that a BEV battery is MORE likely to be overstressed more often than an EREV battery simply in repeated attempts over its lifetime to get to charging stations and/or avoid being stranded! I believe Lyle Dennis would attest to this concern about his MINI E.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:06 am)I think BEV range anxiety is oversold by folks who have never even driven one. I’ve had bouts of it driving an ICE though. Just to play devil’s advocate here’s a quote from Tesla’s website.
“My plan was to have a charging base at an RV park in Groveland, 40 miles from the park entrance. But Groveland is 150 miles from my home in Redwood City, just south of San Francisco, and I wasn’t entirely confident of getting even that far. So after discovering through an EV enthusiast site that there’s a convenient and publicly available outlet on the outskirts of the San Francisco Bay Area, I made a short detour to San Ramon. The San Ramon Valley Conference Center at 3301 Crow Canyon Rd. is home to a Tesla 240V/70A charger. It worked perfectly. Thank you!”
If you read between the lines this Tesla owner made a big unnecessary detour to avoid range anxiety and if you read the whole blog post he was confident enough on the way back not to repeat the detour!
( http://www.teslamotors.com/blog5/?p=68 )
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:06 am)Hey, check out this BEV company “Global Green Cars” http://www.globalgreencars.com/vehicles.html
Impressive specs but I would say they may be CARB “Treadmill” tests so my bet is you only get 75% of that in real driving experience.
For $18,000.00 it’s a steal, that is if it ever get’s to market.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:06 am)All valid points, and I agree that a expected range is more like 70 miles than 100 in the case of the i-MiEV…unless you are a extreme hypermiller, of which 99% of us are not. Most ‘real world’ tests are putting it somewhere in the 70s.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:10 am)Ya know. It’s not just running out of gas that causes cars to be stranded along the road. Blown tires, dead engines, etc… So let’s take off the blinders. It’s about learned behavior. Yep, there will be those who run out of gas and those who will run out of electricity. They will learn and the next time will be more sensative to the issue. For the small minority that will continiously push the envelope…… so be it. They exist anyway and driving an ICE or BEV or EREV won’t change that.
The more players we have in this field the better off we all wil be. Embrace the change cause it’s a comin’. Long live the electric vehicle!!
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:11 am)I think Statik has it right.
Zero maintenance isn’t necessarily true with EVs. When I was looking into a Zap EV, it turned out that maintenance and parts availability was a big issue when talking to local owners of those particular EVs.
While there wouldn’t be any reason for regular oil changes in an EV, there’s every reason that you’ll need to get out the grease gun every once in a while and lube the suspension, replace brake pads, replace shocks, and so forth. Avoiding oil changes, timing belts, EGRs, catalytic converters seems like a wing — butm depending on the quality of the design and manufacture, it seems like there could be plenty of unscheduled maintenance.
I personally enjoy the act of maintenance so I’m cool with crawling around with a grease gun every now and then. The problem with the Zap 3-wheelers is that I thought I’d block traffic and I probably would have had problems getting replacement parts.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:14 am)Ditto here bro. If I need to go offsite I take one of my employers fleet vehicles. Specifically the smallest one because you can park those little mofo’s anywhere.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:16 am)While I agree that corn ethanol, in particular, is a disaster, there are other sources of ethanol. I believe they’re working on producing ethanol from waste products. And algae. While I don’t see it as a permanent solution, if they solved the technical issues, it could be a great supplement for EREVs.
+4
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:17 am)Look, let’s quit pulling WAG’s out of you know where in defense of our positions. You nor anyone else knows where the cost of batteries will be in a year or ten. There is no way to know and any guess is just that, a guess.
As far as the DOE’s predictions. Geeezzz have they ever been out of the ball park on their forecasts.
And bio fueled vehicles are NOT zero emission vehicles. They have a tail pipe and generate exhaust. They are certainly a step in the right direction but are not ZERO emission.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:17 am)you never heard RANGE ANXIETY from them because its not their primary car, they bought it because they want to, not like they need it, its just a statement that ‘i’m green’…or ‘whats up with this…so cool’…’ i know somebody who bought one and never uses it for simple reason, “collection”…why not try to buy one and use and charge it everyday and get back to me and comment on ‘range anxiety’, and justify your ‘range anxiety doesn’t exist theory”….
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:18 am)“I doubt very much that it will represent “the mainstream” as the Nissan rep seems to think.”
I do. I work in the City and often tackle the traffic downtown. There are many people I have just run into in conversation at lunch saying they would like a plug in electric car. There are literally thousands downtown and if you can offer to them a BEV at an affordable price, I can almost gurantee you will not be able to supply the demand. Key word is “Affordable” and I define that as at or below $25K @100MPC real, but that’s just my cheap a$$.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:20 am)Statik, you’re catching on to the battery issues. Hopefully at this point everyone here should be able to agree that a 100% DOD is not going to happen. You need 10% at the top for regen (otherwise you have to over-engineer the braking system) and 20% at the bottom (to protect the pack).
Also hopefully everyone at this point will agree that there are many wonderful technical advantages to a larger pack. One, which you’ve mentioned, is that a larger pack means fewer charge/discharge cycles. The second, which you haven’t mentioned, is that a larger pack implies a lower discharge RATE at the cell level. Cells react negatively to high discharge rates. For a given power draw, cells in a small pack will discharge at a higher rate than the same cells in a larger pack. For example, if one pack is three times larger than another, given the same power draw the cells in the smaller pack will have a discharge rate three times higher than the cells in the larger pack.
As has been mentioned, this means that increasing the size of the Volt pack by a factor of two would probably triple rather than double the range. (But for cost reasons the pack is not going to double in size).
As for range anxiety, an interesting fact is that most people who had the EV-1 eschewed the more expensive nickel metal hydride packs which had more range in favor of the cheaper lead acid battery packs which had less. But these were more educated people who had been driving a BEV so they had a very practical attitude. Most people making an expensive purchase want everything covered. It’s why people buy houses with rooms they never use (just in case every family comes home at the same time) or water heaters way too large (in case all those visiting family members want to take a shower at the same time) or buy huge SUVs (just in case the family wants to take a vacation to Lake Tahoe once every three years).
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:25 am)This is why I truly believe the most important number data we need is MPG on charge sustaining mode. I read Prius actually can achieve 58 MPG… Volt has at least to reach this cap in order to be a strong concurrent.
Personally, I see the 10, 20, 40 miles range full electric mode as an extension, a plus, an option, an added-value for those who can take benefit of it.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:26 am)Speaking of a Turbine Genset….
“ETV Motors demonstrates extended-range Prius with microturbine”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/13/etv-motors-demonstrates-extended-range-prius-with-microturbine/
lol…..
yeah, someone thought of it already.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:26 am)Every manufactured consumer product, electric cars included, is made from a series of compromises. Any vehicle on the road today considering economic, financial and environmental concerns and the technical evolution of both ICE and BEV vehicles is a stop gap.
If any one feels consumers have latched onto an “ideal car” then look at current NA sales numbers. Hybrids are the contrarian product – - – up to higher levels of sales than ever – - – (Not including of course the humble Malibu and a few other examples) in a market that is down overall by more than 40%. Hybrids are the exception that proves the rule in this case. With gas prices at moderating levels, the Prius is redefining if you build it they will come IMO.
The Volt with no direct competitors should have no problems selling, unless gas prices crash. And the first highway capable electrics, at a reasonable price point, should do well also.
+4
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:28 am)Circa 2000, an average car A/C tested had a COP of around 2.15, where COP = Heat Removed / Input (Compressor) Power. For a system with intake air at 86 F this translates to around 3 kW of compressor power for an averge Sedan size car. By optimizing the compressor speed based on conditions, the COP could easily be increased above 4 which would cut the power required in half. If the car is already cooled down to 75 deg and you are using recirculated air, and we assumed that the EV guys have a decently optimized system, the A/C load should only be around 1 kW if not lower, especially if the windows were tinted.
Reference: Lee, G. H., and Yoo, J. Y., Performance analysis and simulation of automobile air conditioning system, International Journal of Refrigeration, Volume 23 (2000), pages 243-254.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:28 am)Statik,
You are probably right as usual, but I will find it difficult to purchase an EV to be used for commuting or as a second “around town” car and have to pay $35,000 for it. It will be extremely difficult for most of us to squeeze out the money for the Volt in 2011, or more likely 2012. Maybe Nissan and the other EV manufacturers can get the cost down after the first year or two and get them where people can afford them. I know you will be saving on gasoline purchases, but still…..
+4
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:30 am)There are lots of factors at play here:
1) Choice of battery chemistry.
2) The Nissan would not suffer from the Volt’s design compromise of needing to keep spare capacity for when on the ICE.
3) The Nissan should be lilghter due to the lack of the ICE components. (engine, fuel tank, cooling, oil, conversion equipment, etc.)
4) Subsidies.
It is also possible that Nissan has more knowledge of their battery than GM has of their own… or perhaps they are betting that by the time they need to replace these batteries the cost will have dropped.
To be fair, if we are going to de-rate the Nissan range, then we should probably do the same for the Volt and claim it to be ~28 miles.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:31 am)As I understand it, it’s a “Series Hybrid”. Again, note the word “Hybrid”.
If that isn’t good enough, then explain exactly what a “Hybrid” is.
I define it in the world of cars as a mixed origin of propulsion energy, but that’s just me.
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:36 am)you got a lot of reading to do, we have discussed and was enlightened ourselves about your technologies since the first day of this blog…
first, LEAD ACID BATTERY is not the same as the battery of today, it was tested yes, but it was not enough…
second, Electric Buses has routs and charging points…successfull..
third, your going to fast with your blahh//blahhh about new technologies man!…these are not stagnant ideas man!.. these are developing ideas!
c’mon man! you can’t just LEVITATE with Magnetic Levetation Technologies and stick it into our asses that fast…. we can’t even perfected the battery technology as of today…not to mention R&D and REGULATIONS implemented by the government… it would take years for these developing ideas/technology to be FULLY IMPLEMENTED….
i think you need to quit taking PROZAC…try VIAGRA.instead…hehehe
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:38 am)Some form of truck/hauler based on EREV makes sense IMO. If you could hop in your truck go on errands or pick up bulky items that are too inconvenient or messy for a car and get 15 – 20 miles all electric, that would be huge for a lot of folks.
Then when you are hauling at capacity the generator would be available and the battery too for peak power needs.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:40 am)I think Nissan’s perspective might also be influenced by Renault, the French get nearly 100% of their electricity from carbon free sources (nuclear power).
This along with the higher population density of France and Japan the EV really makes more sense.
It will also make sense for a lot of folks here as well, but if you live outside of urban areas I’m not sure it’s the best fit at this point.
-3
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:42 am)The problem with averages for something like range is that averages are meaningless. It’s like the joke that having your feet in the oven and your head in the freezer means that “on average” the temperature is just right, or like the joke about Bill Gates walking into a bar and having the average patron becoming a millionaire. For an individual what is important is their situation, not an average which can be affected by others in completely different situations.
Other than the little old lady in Pasadena who doesn’t drive fast, the range for a vehicle like the i-Miev will not remotely be anything near 100 miles in North America (the 100 mile range is based on a Japanese cycle which is not at all relevant for NA). The rated range for the i-Miev in NA would probably be 55 miles ON AVERAGE in good conditions. For Lyle the range on his commute would probably be something around 35 miles. A driver in suburbia that doesn’t venture onto freeways might get 70 miles. High summer temperatures will reduce this range but winter temperatures will really hurt, because in very cold temperatures not only do you have axillary power draws but you also have additional drive train and rolling resistance losses. (This is why GM never sold the EV-1 in states with harsh winters, preferring to stay in CA and AZ).
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:43 am)“The die is cast.” Useful for life, in manufacturing and at the craps tables!!!
No wonder Americans got so bent out of shape when China took over manufacturing
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:46 am)do you know how much these BEVs cost? xway BEVs cost more than the VOLT…obviously you don’t need a single thought to figure that out…think twice about RANGE ANXIETY man, it is real…its not that we are justifying the VOLT man, based on many articles been discussed around here, i say, i was just like you before…but now VOLT does make sense…i’m believer of what advantages it would give us…
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:49 am)“” I further reason that, simply put, the 100 mile BEV’s battery —being 2 1/2 times larger— will cost at least 2 1/2 times more than a 40 mile EREV’s battery. And it will weigh 2 1/2 times more, or about 2 1/2 x 400 lbs = 1,000 lbs!””
WHAT!!!!
No way bro. Even if you had 2 of the Volts batt packs it still wouldn’t be 2 1/2 times the weight nor 2 1/2 times the cost.
In a BEV, I would bet they are using at the most 75% of the batt pack instead of the 50% GM uses. That’s a more efficient use of the cells. At 75% you would probably get a 2500 cycle count
which gives you 6.8 years of theoretical life if you fully drian and charge your batt pack. If you only use 50% of it in a day then charge to full, then double the years.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:56 am)No, range will realistically vary, with users who drive the routes and ways that Lyle does getting a similiar loss of range compared to the test cycle. The test cycle is not that of a hypermiler. Some mini E owners have reported ranges higher than the test cycle.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:56 am)Man that’s one of the culture changes people need to make. So what if you have an emergency once a year? What happens is there is a 50/50 chance that you have to drive the complete opposite direction of your home. So you’re saying one needs to purchase a car based on a once a year unknown event if any?
OK, I know “it only takes that one time…”. This is why when our cars get paid off, we don’t trade it in for another one. All I have to suggest to folks is don’t trade in your car for a new one just because it’s paid off. Wait for a Volt or BEV. Then you’ll have your backup ICE vehicle. I hear people all the time saying “I cant wait till this car is paid off, I’m gonna trade it in for ?????”.
Sheesh, and you wonder why so many are in debt.
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:57 am)Maybe the electrics are the way of the future but 100 miles is not nearly enough. You drive to work 20 miles and back 30 miles with some trips to the store etc and then forget to plug it in at night and you are done even with 50 miles left you are not getting out of the house. Im my opinion you need at least 250 worse case miles with 15 min charge capacity and a wide spread infrastructure of charging stations for this to work. After thinking about this and researching I come to the conslusion that EREV is the only viable alternative with the current battery chemistry. To make EVs workable for most of people we will need a totally different chemistry with improvement buy orders of magnitude over the best Li. I have no idea what it is doing to be, most likely some new generation of supercaps. My guess also that we will see first commertial SCRAM jets before 90% of cars are electric.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:58 am)And why does the media promote electric vehicles with out mentioning the resources that have been used to manufacture the car you will be buying? You save some gas for what: the 30 tons of mined Iron Or for steel, the 40 tons of or processed for precious metals required for the electronics, the 100 gallons of petroleum used to manufacture plastics/rubber, the fuel burned to refine the glass, the energy used for manufacturing, the chemicals created for paints/coatings, etc… It’s all so stupid so you can feel smug in your new hybrid. This Nissan exec states that people want to make a difference and that’s why they will buy?
I can get 44 MPG in my solstice driving the speed limit and taking the 55 MPH parkway to work. I drive 40 miles each day spending about a gallon a day or $63 a month on gas. That same Solstice is also a 300 horsepower sports car that I can take to the track or drive out of town for the weekend. My ICE is a two liter direct injection turbo-charged engine that produces 340 pounds of torque but I also have it tuned to deliver excellent mileage when I ‘m not producing positive manifold pressure. Driving the speed limit and reprogramming my computer I’ve been able to reduce my fuel usage by 35% (EPA estimate is 29MPG highway). There is no reason for me to give up my high-mileage sports car that has low emissions and only costs me $63 a month for gas. I won’t sacrifice my weekend road trips, weekend races, and an enjoyable commute with the top down for an ugly electric car. Here in Northern Utah our refineries are pumped in oil from lower Canada and not from the Middle East. Plus those 21 gallons of fuel I burn each month are still much cleaner then the industrial fall out that comes from producing 3,000 pounds of steel, glass, plastic, rubber, paint, and lithium batteries, for a new electric car.
With all that said, I might give up the performance and convertible top for the Volt but I certainly won’t double my “industrial fall-out footprint” that comes from owning an additional ICE vehicle that I need for road trips. Doesn’t that seem asinine, you own an electric car but you also own a gas vehicle for any time you need to drive further then 50 miles from your home? If anyone is going to sell a 100% electric car it better be something completely innovative like the Aptera, not something hideous like the Nissan Cube.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:00 pm)Dude that scenario can repeat itself infinately to justify why a BEV is not a good idea. It all boils down to the owners responsibility. If you can remember to put gas in your car then you can remember to plug it in at home….PERIOD. Otherwise your a real idiot.
That’s JMHO.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:00 pm)Dan,
Same thing can happen to an ICE only vehicle. If you have mechanical or electrical (battery not charged) problems on a freeway it is not going to matter much which type of vehicle you are in. You are going to cause a lot of people problems all the way from just “rubber necking” to having serious traffic accidents. I just hope the unlucky person will be able to get the disabled vehicle off the road way before it completely stops.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:02 pm)Well technically, right now these BEV’s are just as available as the Volt……lol
=op
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:03 pm)wow! i can’t believe that youre perfectlly happy with 100 mile BEV and use your gas car for long drives…are you willing to spend $50k for your BEV and not dumping your gas car? instead of buying the VOLT (EREV) and eliminate your gas car for under $40k?…
and you think youre perfectly happy…
pre-planning?…duh!!… did you ever met the word “EMERGENCY” or “RANGE ANXIETY”… more research man!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:03 pm)I was wondering, since the Volt will have a gas engine, will it need to be smogged? If so, how will they force the engine to turn on?
-3
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:05 pm)there is no competition Frank! The VOLT is an EV too, the only added feature is the built-in generator for range extension…
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:07 pm)“RB, The good thing about gas is that I can fill up just about anywhere and in less than 10 minutes.”
Rashiid Amul EV’s operate under a completely different premise. You start each day with a full tank. When an affordable EV has the range that you, or someone with a much smaller commute feels comfortable with, then the thoughts of an EV purchase will start.
Unless you move or change jobs it appears you may be one of the last to be able to reasonably entertain such thoughts.
+4
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:08 pm)To call a wind farm greenwashing when compared to coal is absurd in the extreme. Based on your use of the term, any real substantial reduction in pollutants is greenwashing.
I’m glad that the word farm evokes “founds” of nature and happiness in you. That’s appropriate in the case of a wind farms.
Yes, I am getting my wind farm energy delivered on my own personal power lines. There are actually two nearby wind farms which are the closest large power sources to me and I can see the substations and distribution lines from my location.
There is no monolithic electrical grid. Different regions have different mixes of power sources, with the Pacific Northwest, for example, being dominant in renewable hydropower.
Oh, and BEV with electricity from coal and natural gas plant/national average mix is still less emissions than a gas car and can only get cleaner.
Give it up. You just got pwned.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:08 pm)I never ran out of gas on the road but often have only 10-15 miles left when I get to the station. I often forget to plug in my cell phone and laptop so I end up with dead battery.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:10 pm)They are French! What else needs to be said?
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:16 pm)You heard wrong. This is hardly news.
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713683385
http://www.amazon.com/Oil-Wars-Mary-Kaldor/dp/0745324789
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/sardi7.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1626889.stm
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article2928.html
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1125-06.htm
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/afgh-n20.shtml
http://www.jhcrawford.com/op-ed/oil_war.html
and thousands more….
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:21 pm)A couple minor points.
“The Volt also is EXTREMELY HEAVY vehicle” As Newbie points out it is projected to weigh less than a Tesla.
“and is a MASS POLLUTER” LOLROTF! Almost any modern engine emit’s cleaner air than it injests! The Volts genset running at optimal points will be more-so.
If you are not really “No Name” the troll you COULD be!
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:22 pm)give me a (10 minutes)FAST RECHARGING STATIONS for every 100 mile radius available right now! and i say EV is the way to go…
no matter how much MPC EV could have, without FAST CHARGING STATIONS, for me EV is just an NEV comparable to Electric Scooters that are available today…
lets face the fact that EV will be the next step after EREV…
from HYBRID to EREV to EV, that my friend is ‘NEWBIES THEORY OF EV EVOLUTION’…year 2050…all cars are EV, all gasoline stations are converted to 5 minute recharging stations. and I’am happily lying 6 feet under the old oak tree….tie a yellow ribbon pls…
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:24 pm)Here in southern Alberta I can see the genset running a good part of the winter during driving. Even the most efficient electric heater needs a LOT of power to work well. (Hence heated seats being almost manditory.)
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:25 pm)Ooops…
Just re-read my post. Sounded like I called you an idiot. Wasn’t the intent.
My bad.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:25 pm)Has your BEV been towed more often than your ICE or EREV? From what factual experience base do you draw your agreement?
I find your speculative agreements and imaginings doubtful. I suggest actual experience, such as Lyle is doing.
My views are based on my actual long term daily commuting use of my BEV (highway capable motorcycle) with an AER of 40 miles and I’ve never had my BEV towed once nor ever run out of juice. I have, though, had some of my past ICEs towed on several occasions, including once due to running out of gas (the city towed it before the tow truck arrived with the small recharge (I mean refill)) and once when a rock shattered an aluminum oil pan, all the oil leaked all over the road and the engine was permanently damaged and once when the shifting mechanism refused to work, with the truck stuck in top gear and completely unable to get going at slow speeds (unlike an electric), etc. etc. Wow, brings back a lot of unpleasant full gasser memories, thankfully replaced with only pleasant more recent electric ones.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:29 pm)Ask the average Joe on the street and they will say that they care about the environment. Most will say they are environmentalists. You can be an environmentalist by sheer ASSERTION. Very few people will say that they don’t care about the environment. The question is what is to be done about the environment. I know people who put bumper stickers on their cars proclaiming their love of the enviornment. That satifies their own requirements for being an environmentalist. Suffice it to say most environmentalists are frauds. Plain and simple. There’s no such thing as a Zero Emissions Car. The plant that generates the electricity will produce emissions. The factories that build the cars use lots of energy and thus emissions as well. This is particularily true if it is a coal fired power plant. Electrical power is fungible. The energy out on the grid can come from anywhere. 51% of the electric power generated in the US is from coal. New autos as you undoubtably know are almost pollution free nowadays. Yes there is CO2 but that was NEVER indicated as pollution until recently. CO2 is NOT a pollutant no matter what the guys in black robes say. The zero emissions environmental argument is bogus.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:30 pm)I’m glad you have the dough for a $150k tesla good for you!
The rest of us will keep our houses and buy a Volt!
I’ll do MOST of my driving electric and have the genset to get to the lake on the weekend.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:31 pm)FYI….
REPORT: Daimler sells 4% of Tesla to Middle East investment fund just two months after acquiring it
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/13/report-daimler-sells-4-of-tesla-to-middle-east-investment-fund/
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:31 pm)Why any company would “bet” such an investment on one or the other is mystifying to me….
If it were my company I would develop EREV and simply make it an option to not have the extended range. How this is a decision to go with one option only does not merit any accolades.
Further, it’s Stupid that Ford, Chrysler and GM’s money given, loaned, gambled on by us and our government…. is not made mandatory to “pool” the funds as a joint effort between the “Big Three” to develop an E Rev and EV technology is a joke.
They all use Pistons and valves with gas now don’t they…whats the difference really.
We could have had our own batteries instead of Overseas batteries and LG making the profit.
Nissan getting money from us to compete against us…wow…guess you can’t fix Stupid….
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:33 pm)The Honda N360, the car that started the now massive loss of market share for the Big 3 (er small 1/2, I mean) in Detroit to more efficient built vehicles, goes (yep, some are still around and on the interstates) 0 – 60 in 19 (yp, that’s nineteen) seconds and car maganzine reviewers at the time were impressed with its performance.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:34 pm)sorry for the typos, “ore” not “or”.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:34 pm)A 100-mile range wouldn’t fly with most anyone who has to drive their own vehicle on their commute to work in the greater NYC Metro area. Never mind that weekend driving around here can easly top 100 miles per day with all of the malls, festivals, and far-flung friends to visit. Also, getting stuck waiting at the tunnels or bridges or in traffic with the heater or air conditioner running and the radio on would shorten that 100-mile range alarmingly guickly, I’m sure.
I’d love to get a Volt because there’s no range anxiety, and I wouldn’t need to bear the expense of buying and maintaining both a “primary” car and an “other car”, I’d only need one car. The Volt’s 40-mile electric-only range would just about cover my getting to work, and the ~50 MPG I’d get on the way back would mean that I’d only use about a gallon of gas per day. Then during the summer weekends, I’d get at least the first 40 miles per day free and maybe I’d burn an additional gallon or two.
I don’t know about other people, but I use my car to go all over the area. Down the shore, up the mountains, and everywhere in-between. I need a car that can get me where I want to go, regardless of range, and that’s the Volt.
In addition, I know too many people who have lost their jobs to be cavalier about where the money I may spend on a large purchase, like that of a car, is going to go to. I want my money to stay here in the USA. I have pride in the works of my countrymen, and I will go out of my way to buy American. There’s no way I would buy the product of a foreign country when I can support the efforts of an American company that’s developing the technology to put us at the forefront of this new chapter in the history of the automobile.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:34 pm)“For Lyle the range on his commute would probably be something around 35 miles.”
…sigh, I don’t even have the energy anymore, lol.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:36 pm)I’m glad he explained it, but I don’t think it’s some sort of tortured rationalization. It sounds to me like they’re seeing some writing on the wall.
If you think that global warming or peak oil could have big effects on our lifestyle in the next decade or so, then Nissan is probably getting on the bandwagon and preparing what could be the right products for that future. It’s a hedge, of course, and we won’t know how all of this will turn out until we see the actual future and the actual products in that future.
On the other hand, if you think that global warming is a crock, and that peak oil is a non-issue, then this stuff sounds a little nuts. This is certainly a viewpoint that I can understand.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:37 pm)Just as Aptera offers an electric and a range extended. Too bad an OEM isn’t building the Aptera. I don’t know if I’ll ever seen one out of California.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:39 pm)Sigh.
Herm said recharge a BEV from installed solar panels, not necessarily a car rooftop panel. So long as the installed system is at least 3 kWh with at least twice that much on site power storage, a totally typical residential or small business ystem, I’d have absolutely no problem recharging my electric vehicle with it.
The average price per kWh is 13¢ here and it’s so cost effective that the regional utility is doing installations voluntarily.
In the case of power outages or no wind for me, I have arrangements to charge at friend’s and neighbors places that have off grid and grid tied solar systems.
Although you might get enough of a charge over a sunny day from a rooftop panel to limp to the nearest outlet, pretty much guaranteed to be closer than the nearest gas station.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:40 pm)Your right Neal, money is a big factor here.
I think most that are squeezing out 35-40 large are going to have a backup car available for long trips.
In my case (and for most) the 100 mile (or 80 mile, or 60 mile) EV would be the primary car, with the ICE as the backup. I don’t really see the 35K EV as the backup because it is a BEV.
/everyone is different though, (=
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:41 pm)…and they were far from the first. My first exposure to the idea of an EREV (though not called that at the time) was a hand-built prototype using lead acid batteries and the auxiliary power turbine from a passenger airliner (about the size of an old VW Beetle engine, normally located in the tail-cone behind the rudder and elevators). This was somewhere back in the 60′s.
The reason that we don’t drive such cars today isn’t because no one could demonstrate the technology. It’s because turbines are made of expensive materials machined by exotic methods to almost unheard of precision.
So, while it would be a tremendous range-extender in theory, it’s unlikely to hit the roads en masse for cost reasons.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:42 pm)I did apologize in advance for not reading all the comments and potentially coming across as repetitive
Addressing your first point, I personally don’t know anything about battery technology, so I appreciate your input.
As for your second, isn’t part of implementing electric cars going to be creating charging points? Doesn’t it make sense that these would pop up on their own as a likely problem-solution-product reaction in lieu of gas stations?
As for your third, you misunderstood what I meant. Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I was not saying that these were stagnant ideas, on the contrary, I think that these are radical ideas that should be developed. I was saying that stagnant ideas such as widely unsubstantiated Global Warming are generally politically driven. Often, the powers that be give steam to a movement in order to drum up the political support they may need to implement certain ideas.
I think there is technology in this world already in existence that we have never even dreamed of. I think that is simultaneously exciting and scary, depending upon who uses what for what. I am well aware of laws rules and regulations as means to slow processes down, all of my above statements were not designed to be absolutes or happen !!rightfuckingnow!! I wasn’t rambling, I was merely discussing topics that I find to be points of interest, and possibly related to the subject at hand. Isn’t this a discussion? Don’t you think things are interesting?
In response to your last rather questionable remark, I’m female, not male, and I don’t take prescription drugs, and it is very rude of you to assume so. Don’t you know what happens when you assume?
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:44 pm)My good friend CJS and I have agreed to disagree on this point.
I think this would best be calculated by running the battery to depletion and running the “EPA” tests as normal. (I think the Volt is going to do very well here.)
The good Captain thinks the battery should be disconnected to calculate this number.
I’m much like statik on this point, most of the driving I do (spring summer fall) will be full electric anyway so the fuel consumption on genset is not really that important. (Winter is a question mark, I assume the genset will run a lot more to keep things warm.)
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:44 pm)I would like to see them state the range of the vehicle at highway speeds with four adults and with the A/C working. That would be an almost worst case scenario.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:48 pm)Talking to yourself again, Cap’n?
City-only use is not mainstream. It is potentially major, but not mainstream. A city BEV is dependent on that environment, and cannot leave it easily. It’s a big-ish niche, but no more. Ma and Pa in Pawtucket won’t give it a second’s consideration.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:48 pm)Dang!! That must be a well thought system. So now my answer is If it sells for say 20% less than the Volt I would consider it.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:53 pm)Jeffhre, I understand what you are saying.
But most people like to take trips. Most people don’t give it a thought about how many miles they need to drive when they jump into the car.
If they need gas, they stop, buy it, and continue on in under 10 minutes.
I think before EVs gain wide adoption, they need to have more range and less time charging. Even if my commute was magically reduced to 20 miles a day, I would still need an ICE vehicle of some kind. I occasionally do go over 100 miles on the weekend. When I do, it is a last minute decision.
An EV will simply not do as a primary vehicle for people like that (me).
Believe me, I want off of oil badly. I hate terrorism and the middle eastern governments who treat their people like garbage. But EVs need to be practical for a wide range of consumers, or they just won’t gain a foothold.
With the technology today, or the technology coming out in the next few years, Voltec makes the most sense to me.
Again, for what it is worth (not much), this is my 2¢.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:54 pm)DonC said:
Statik, you’re catching on to the battery issues. Hopefully at this point everyone here should be able to agree that a 100% DOD is not going to happen.
Also hopefully everyone at this point will agree that there are many wonderful technical advantages to a larger pack. One, which you’ve mentioned, is that a larger pack means fewer charge/discharge cycles. The second, which you haven’t mentioned, is that a larger pack implies a lower discharge RATE at the cell level. Cells react negatively to high discharge rates. For a given power draw, cells in a small pack will discharge at a higher rate than the same cells in a larger pack. For example, if one pack is three times larger than another, given the same power draw the cells in the smaller pack will have a discharge rate three times higher than the cells in the larger pack.
As has been mentioned, this means that increasing the size of the Volt pack by a factor of two would probably triple rather than double the range. (But for cost reasons the pack is not going to double in size).
——————-
Of these points, we are completely in agreement.
/ctrl PrtScn
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:55 pm)That’s pretty simplistic EVO.
For EV’s to be accepted by the public they need to be able to be REAL CARS. Which means doing what they are told/asked without being an inconvenience.
Your solution (get off the highway) makes it very clear that EV’s are NOT truly highway capable as yet. Interestingly your argument makes an EREV look better yet!
I don’t bet Lyle is anymore a “lead foot” than is normal for most, he likely just drives like a normal person.
The car has to have the capability to keep up with the owner.
(Or that person will buy a different car.)
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:55 pm)Thanks blake, that is really handy.
Thats gives me/us a good base of understanding to work from. It is still difficult to extrapolate it out in a practical sense, when everything is the ‘new hotness,’ when it comes to a application in a EV…but gives us a reference point to start from. I appreciate your post.
+1
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:56 pm)Jackson, you nailed it. It has been about a year since I have slowed down and relaxed while driving. The commute is so much more peaceful and way less stressful.
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:57 pm)I take it you’ve never been to the midwest?
The farms here are big and sort-of vaguely industrial — money grows on stalks here, and every kind of tool and analysis that is available is used to maximize the yield in both bushels and dollars. I’ve learned as much about economics listening to the farmers on the radio on Saturday morning as I have hanging out with my college friend who went to Wall Street.
This kind of agriculture is not like going over to your neighbor’s organic chickyard. But, hey, it’s very reassuring to look out the window and see economic security coming from those uniform genetically engineered feedcorn stalks!
The windmills fit right in and, like the corn, they wouldn’t be here if they weren’t making money. And, other than manufacturing and installing the wind turbine, I don’t see how they can be anything other than carbon-neutral.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:57 pm)They are at a huge disadvantage anyway, Tag.
The limited range is a real problem, IMO.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:57 pm)Good point on the emissions.
Silly point on estimating battery price. We know how the price of a kWh of battery has behaved during the last ten, twenty, and one hundred years. Nothing wrong with taking the curve and projecting it forward. Unless of course you want to say we can’t predict anything because there might, just might, be some new breakthrough. That might happen of course but that’s hope.
FWIW DOE has over the last ten years or so been wrong on the price of batteries — it has consistently overestimated the price declines. So if anything it’s estimate is probably biased in favor of BEVs.
Here is just one article that talks about the (lack of) price decreases for Lithium batteries. The title is something along the lines of nine years and no real price drops:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/129570-lithium-ion-batteries-9-years-of-price-stagnation
Jul 14th, 2009 (12:58 pm)My immediate concern is one of handling… how much does the gen-trailer weigh? does that much weight hung way out back make the car handle in some sort of evil fashion?
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:01 pm)It will take a lot of time for anything like this to happen. In this case, I think that the chicken must definitely preceed the egg: it won’t be a valid business plan until there are a significant number of plug-in vehicles on the road which can be fast-charged.
“Islands” of quick-charge availability (in major metropolitan areas, and/or airports) may appear early, but I’m thinking it will be at least a couple of decades before there are more than a smattering of (mostly demonstration) stations.
Ordinary slow-charging stations at malls and other common destinations may appear almost immediately (some have already been installed).
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:05 pm)Yep. It is a “numbers game”. Nissan, and all other manufacturers, will continue selling their standard ICE vehicles as available today. They will try to “clean” them up as much as possible, but to insure successfully meeting the CAFE standards they will hope to sell a big bundle of pure EVs or other hybrid vehicles. The more EVs and hybrids they sell the better chance of off-setting the more polluting ICE only vehicles. Somewhere the “numbers” will come together to get them to the CAFE standards. If not, what does the government do? Probably not much.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:07 pm)tap tap…
shhh….
Hey, I plan on making some hitch mount gensets and/or trailer gensets. Gonna make some bucks if I can get the prices down.
So don’t tell anyone, k?
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:12 pm)The Volt is the shiznit !
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:13 pm)I think Lyle had a bit of range anxiety when he was loaned one for a test drive and reported on it here.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:13 pm)Statik
In addition to the 3 ratings you proposed, I hope the EV vehicle manufacturer will also provide a miles remaining per charge based on at least two factors. The first factor should be based on driver past history of how he “normally” drives (conservative, etc) that would show the miles left in the charge if he continues driving like he has in the past. The second factor should be based on maximum miles remaining in the charge if the driver drives very conservatively to get where he is going. I don’t know what the current miles remaining for the fuel supply is based on, but it should take into consideration the driver’s past history driving the vehicle. I know my Accord always tells me I can go further on the remaining gallons in a tank of gas than I feel comfortable with trying to obtain.
I am not sure I expressed my thoughts very well on this subject. I was trying to find a way to help reduce range anxiety for a driver if he knew just how many more miles it was “safe” to drive before losing power.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:17 pm)Just who are you “racing” with to be the winner to get some place first. So, what if you slow down and get there 10 seconds or 10 minutes later. Think ahead and plan your starting time to get there when you need to be there. A little foresight and planning goes a long way.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:21 pm)Our very enthusiastic and well meaning friend EVO has the tenacity to boil it all down to the basics.
Most of us are somewhat ‘stuck’ to where we are living for various reasons, job, family, etc. and cannot just move someplace else. Even if we would very much like to!
You are absolutely right, MaynardKeenan. But I have been to the south of France Spain and Italy in the summer and THEY have very similar automotive cooling issues as they do in Texas in the summer. The traffic wasn’t so different there, lots of cars not too much movement.
I cannot speak for Japan, but people are much the same world over once you pull churches and governments out of the equation. Japan has as far as I know a pretty moderate climate though so are likely better suited to BEV’s than say Calgary Canada (here).
In my case it is the opposite, while I do have AC in my cars, I only run it a few weeks of the year, HEAT in the winter is the (safety) issue here. I bet folks in Sweden or Finland would look at things a lot like a Canadian like me would on this subject.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:21 pm)I am a believer in BEV myself and don’t wan’t to retract from your post but coal plants like oil or nuclear use steam to propel the generator. The fuel is used to produce steam. There is no constant speed or tunning involved.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:24 pm)Nissan makes the best cars and they are more American than GM. I am sure their EVs will be awesome. Can’t wait to pick one up.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:25 pm)Hi Dave,
Wind turbines and wheel generators? Can you please clarify what you mean when you use these terms?
Solar and regen are pretty well clear, and yes, beneficial. But if you mean what I think you do, about the other two, they can’t possibly help. TANSTAAFL applies — perpetual motion devices don’t work.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:27 pm)I sure would not want to tow that thing around and try to back it up all the time. I don’t care if it would be cheaper than the Volt. No sale from this old boy.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:27 pm)The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:28 pm)For the record, industrially-produced urea is made synthetically from Ammonia and CO2. No need to follow the cows around with a funnel… thankfully!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea#Industrial_methods
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:30 pm)That is exactly why a rating system stating miles per charge for different “styles” of driving might be helpful in choosing an EV. You could see the worst case and the best case for miles per charge. Most of us would probably fall into the middle rating and would feel more knowledgeable about the remaining miles left per charge.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:33 pm)Very true, but how many of us are willing to change our driving habits now to save a few gallons of gas per tank? For myself, I would look for an EV that would give me the mileage per charge I require based on the lowest rating. That way, if I drove more conservatively than worst case, which I would nearly always do, I could always expect to get to and from where I want to go and still have some charge left.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:34 pm)An interesting concept!
Thanks for the food-for-thought Jackson!
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:35 pm)I think the last paragraph of the article containing the sentence “Those things clearly are charging.” should read “Those things clearly are changing.”
Nissan may actually help the Volt by creating an economy of scale sooner than the Volt alone. Mark Perry is correct, there is a market for a pure EV. It existed with the first EV1 test group, and they all miss their cars. Even with the range anxiety.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:36 pm)Some reviewers have gotten 70 mpg with the Prius yet EPA is still 50. Should the Volt then have to attain at least that also? Like Herm once said Tesla’s roadster “can” get over 400 miles per charge – but it will never be on the sticker.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:40 pm)Algae can be used to produce Ethanol directly, as well. The process needn’t conclude as diesel. See http://www.algenol.com for at least one example.
The process has some neat secondary benefits, too. Use of desert rather than arable land, minimal water needs, etc.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:40 pm)I totally agree with the role of range anxiety. I was including the Volt as an electric vehicle though.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:41 pm)What you suggest is possible I bet.
With the price of cells dropping dramatically it’s quite possible that our GM friends have such a battery in the test lab as we speak.
I’m going to buy a Volt anyway, but an 80-90 mile AER would be GREAT!
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:41 pm)Sorry Laura, didn’t scroll down to here until I posted above about Algenol (http://www.algenol.com), but you’re right.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:45 pm)That 10% at the top for regen also protects the pack.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:45 pm)Nissan is reciting a “zero-emissions” slogan to cover up the fact that they don’t want to take on the expense of developing a range-extender architecture similar to the Volt. Their TRUE rationale is that they believe battery technology will advance in a few years to the point that the range extender will not be needed. If this premise is correct, in a few years they will have a much less expensive product than the Volt, with almost no range anxiety, ergo, they will capture the market. But if they’re wrong, they will miss out on the bulk of the market.
Personally, I doubt that batteries will improve all that much beyond where they are today. Look at all the years invested into that problem, e.g., for computers and iPods. Batteries may be approaching an energy density limit. If so, the Volt, not Nissan, will be the winner. Let’s see which way it goes.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:50 pm)Glad to be able to contribute. Since the compressor won’t be run by a belt and can be run at various speeds, the A/C should be much better optimized to deal with current conditions. Although the added electronics, battery pack, and electric motor will require cooling as well, they provide less of a heat load (that must be overcome by the a/c) to the cabin than a current ICE. All reasons why the automakers should be able to drastically reduce the a/c required power.
My company has been able to increase the efficiency of the Boeing 787 by moving to an electrically driven a/c system and I expect that Nissan/GM/Mitsu/etc. will also reap the same benefits.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:50 pm)Range anxiety is magnified by the impossibly lengthy ‘fill ‘er up’ time frame of a pure electric. Until recharging time can be reduced down to 15 minutes or less, full electrics won’t get much past cult status for a long while.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:52 pm)Very good plan – you’ll make a fortune. Can you adapt it for home use also?
100 mile BEV will have a big market if cost is OK. Voltiacs are reacting emotionally.
I could use a Volt and a BEV if Volt mpg in depleted mode is good. Else I’d just opt for high mpg ICE.
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:55 pm)Range anxiety is not at all a behavioral issue. With the Air conditioning dragging down AER drastically when you are repeatedly stuck in 5 pm traffic, and, as I mentioned in my above post that here in Austin, we have had the last 28 days at 103 degrees of temperature…
_______________________________
If you turn on the warning flashers, lower the ac, go to limp home mode, drive on the right lane, drink plenty of bottled water, sing camp songs all the way home and don’t have a mental breakdown over how tragic things could have been. Then you might conclude that any other reaction would be “just behavioral,” and a bunch neurotic worrying about things that just didn’t happen.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:55 pm)CJS,
Well said and some fantastic points.
The catch is 100 miles with the heater/AC running, they get that and it could be the ‘other’ car.
As a consultant most of my days are somewhat unplanned. I can drive as little as 30km (just to the office and back) but a phone call has added 300+ km to a days driving. (The client’s site wasn’t exactly close to my office.)
For me it’s EREV or full gas/diesel.
MissusMuddy ‘might’ get away with a REAL 100 mile (160km) range electric. (Some of the running the kids to places evenings push the daily total driving well over 100 km.)
Were I away and she needed to use the electric for that run it ‘could’ get close to running flat. She wouldn’t like that at all.
Of course we have the Land Rover (4.0 litre V8) as a backup to an electric if the battery was too low…
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (1:56 pm)I don’t have an ICE or any car, for that matter. I’ve rented them, but I’ve never had one towed. Probably because when the gas gauge hits “half full,” I instantly start looking for a gas station. This will not be an option with an BEV.
That said, if I did buy a BEV, it’s unlikely that I would be towed. Mainly becuase I’m hypersenstive about it, and I wouldn’t use more than half of its range except in an absolute emergency. (Which is why I want 300 miles “real world” range.) Anyone who pays attention will be unlikely to be towed.
However, I am a firm believer that if there’s a possibiliy of someone doing something stupid–there are people who will do it. And since the range is a lot lower in an BEV and you can’t refill as easily, my guess is that it will happen more often than in an ICE or EREV. (At least in terms of running out of fuel.) That said, I don’t think it’s a big deal. Or a reason not to buy or use an BEV is you think you can use one. Just make sure you don’t run out of range.
By the way, what is the range on your EV, if you don’t mind my asking?
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:01 pm)Doesn’t burning biofuels still produce emissions, CO2, etc.?
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:02 pm)I liked the post from Luke a lot. Some tiny quibbles:
Suspension lube – ya, probably a little more often than once every 15,000 miles as you’ll be going out of your way to find new scenic routes with lower speed fun twisties. You’ll find that the huge smile wearing electric motorcyclists have discovered them before you. That should add about $6 every couple of years if you squeeze it in yourself.
http://shop.oreillyauto.com/Maintenance/MaintenanceSuspensionLube.aspx
Shocks – don’t see why, as that’s a question of matching the shock choice to the vehicle weight and handling characteristics. Are you saying that you think GM will use flimsier shocks for the vehicle weight/handling for the Volt than they do on their other vehicles? If so, why do you think that?
Brake pads – nope, thanks to regenerative braking, you’ll be replacing those less often.
So forth – like what? Most the parts in common will full gassers will need the same amount of maintenance (or less, like with regenerative brakes) and most of the rest of the parts related to electric drive will be absolutely no maintenance obviously. One moving part with no mechanical friction.
oil changes, timing belts, EGRs, catalytic converters – what are those? Oh yeah, you’ve still got’em if you have en ER-EV, as well as the unsightly tailpipe and don’t get me started on exhaust systems after a few winters worth of corrosive salts.
Full hybrids (GM’s excepted) have had less maintenence than their full gasser counterparts well documented and they’re much more complicated than BEVs.
So, I conclude that they’ll be plenty of unscheduled maintenance only if GM does subpar design, parts spec, quality control and manufacturing in a perfect storm of badness (on a dour note, rouge waves are now known to be more common than previously thought).
My biggest worry with electrics had been for dealers and their service departments and the after market biz profits. Then it struck me, electric is a huge new market for the savvy dealer and after market parts stores. Think consumer electronics, apps and upgrades (performance and otherwise). The economy from folks doing electric right is going to be HUGE, once penetration and word of mouth happens. Let’s not let greed fail us now.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:06 pm)Why would I let you get away with that while I’m trying to sell the same people AREVs?
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:09 pm)I believe that was given as option one. The more choices the better as far as Mr. Market is concerned
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:09 pm)>> I know… what if pigs could fly…
Don’t beat yourself up. What you’ve described is very likely to happen.
It’s just gonna take several years… several very loooooong-feeling years.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:12 pm)Be sure to build them so they don’t mess up the airflow…
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:14 pm)For the chronically un-cool (which includes myself, alas):
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shiznit
Warning! Explicit language. Definition #6 probably comes closest to the intent.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:14 pm)100 mile range… what does this really mean?
This means, realistically, I wont drive further than 40 miles to anywhere. If i can’t plug in, round trip would be 80 miles. I dont trust the 100 mile range, even then, I would still want a little comfort buffer.
I dont know if I could live with a car that I can only drive in a 40 mile radius of my home.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:17 pm)So does that mean you’re going with the Citroen C1 ev’ie, along with CaptainJackSparrow?
4 seater EV, 4 wheels no less
60 mph, so highway capable (but please keep it off the interstates for additional fun and range)
60 to 75 mile range (make that 42 to 52 miles if you drive like Lyle)
Here’s the best part, less than $26,000.
Standard: ABS brakes, electric windows, Radio CD with MP3 input, central locking, 3 or 5 door models, airbags, safety features and safety engineering.
Order yours online today for shipment to your door.
http://www.theelectriccarcorporation.co.uk/
Launched in April:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/04/29/458863.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/c1-evie-20090430.html
http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/?p=12553
Let the gasser-centric monkeywrench throwing begin….
Before you dis about weak, funny, little french cars, etc., here’s their supercar:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/citroen-confirm-2-million-gt-supercar/
The “Citroën GT will use a version of the company’s coming diesel-hybrid drivetrain.”
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:20 pm)awesome price too!!! and you will be needing a second car for long drive… sounds American to me….meaning ‘wasteful’…
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:21 pm)Exactly.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:24 pm)amen bro…
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:26 pm)These people at Nissan are either the most stupid or completely BRILLIANT at what they are planning to do! Trying to satisfy the 98% of the population that drives 40 miles or less is going to leave that 2% awfully mad!
Only time and buyers will tell…
GO EV !!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:26 pm)Oops, by “founds” I meant “sounds”.
You are lucky to have wind farms nearby. Most people do not. I envision that most wind farms simply hook into the grid. Having a private power grid is expensive. It’s like having competing private water systems… everybody is basically selling you the same product, so why have 2 or 3 separate companies pipes in the ground instead of just one?
How much are you paying per kWh for your power? In British Columbia, Canada which is mostly hydroelectric I believe, it’s about 7 cents.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:28 pm)In other news of the day …. It sounds like Exxon is actually getting into the algae fuel business in a big way. Wow.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/business/energy-environment/14fuel.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&em
Hmmm …. could it be that Craig Venter at Synthetic Genomics really DOES have a huge breakthrough in algae based biofuels? I would bet that he does. Craig Venter is the same guy that helped “sequence the DNA genome” several years ago. They say he’s a certified genius kind of guy. If anyone can figure out how to make “biogasoline” with algae in the most efficient, cost effective way it’s a guy like him. He can do all sorts of genetic engineering to make algae into tiny, super productive biofuel factories.
http://www.syntheticgenomics.com/
I would love to be able to buy some algae based “biogasoline” in my local area for my Volt in 2012 or so. From what I’ve been reading, this algae “biogasoline” could really freak out the fat cat Middle East oil shieks in the next 10 years or so.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:30 pm)The idea is that since plants or algae absorbed CO2 in order to grow in the first place, the net effect is a wash: “Carbon Neutral.”
Of course, this doesn’t necessarily account for energy used to harvest the crop, process it into fuel, deliver it to gas stations (etc).
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:31 pm)Vegasguy, your the man!… i never thought of that…hmmmm… great question by the way… i hope Lyle answer this question…
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:31 pm)In heavy traffic, rubberneckers slow down to see what the heck it going on. So even cars stopped at the side of the freeway will cause traffic problems.
Heck, I even remember one time when a traffic crew was putting a sign up on the other side of the freeway, and people on my side were slowing down to watch.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:31 pm)Great. So use your current vehicle until it totally falls apart (for many manufactuers, that’s just after the new car smell (is it really fom pig bladders?) wears off). Then buy a new electric when you buy new and you’ll be ahead of the game.
The media promotes vehicles in general without mentioning the resources that have been used to manufacture the car you will be buying. Like it or not, auto-vehicles are a part of modern culture, a major basis for global manufacturing, trade and patterns of civilization. Of course, more efficient, less non-renewable (or recylable) resource intensive manufacturing is better than the enviroenment. That’s a different topic than the merits of vehicles using efficient electric drive or some thing less sensical.
Thanks for muddling all the issues together. What is this, national FUD day?
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:33 pm)The problem with coming up with realistic “numbers” is that they
1) Cannot take into account all possibilities
-or-
2) There is a subjective take on which of the many possible “numbers” is used
3) People don’t like numbers, anyway.
Why not come up with some kind of plot, or graph? If a standard format is used, it would still make comparison possible (in an analog, less precise but more human sort of way).
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:34 pm)There are many people who say that they care about the environment, but don’t know what belongs in a recycling or compost bin. I see it at work all the time.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:37 pm)Heh!
Of Course the Volt is a stopgap!
But until “Mr Fusion” is readily available it’ll have to do.
I think Voltec drive is the first chance to have a widely accepted electric drive car.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:39 pm)nobody ask you to give up anything… if your ICE works for you… stick on it, like i do for now, until i can manage to finance my VOLT by myself in the future… lets face it…we can’t eliminate CO2 footprint immediately, it will take years and years to just reduce it, gas stations will stay for a couple of decades more before totally vanished… all i need right now is too put rechargeable battery with my existing ICE to work together as soon as possible and that the VOLT is the answer of my prayer.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:39 pm)OK, gotcha.
How will this work regarding emission standards in states such as California? If its biofuel, will they let you belch out more because its more carbon neutral?
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:40 pm)So whatever works with today’s prices (small market) can only get cheaper with bigger markets in the future, with improvement certain and the speed of improvement to be determined. What horrible news for electric drive haters.
John Petersen has tried to talk up his investment position advanced lead acid batteries for the last year through spreading FUD about lithium resources and chemistries. It’s a poor strategy, as the markets can and will happily use anything and everything that actually works.
Sorry, you cited a known biased source with incentives to underestimate the price declines. Perhaps reality will be somewhere in between?
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:41 pm)Heh!
Then my Volt will be well charged because I’m freakin anal about plugging in the phone(s) at night. (I end up plugging in MissusRovers phone most of the time!)
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:45 pm)Interesting question!
The running theory is that there will be a ‘maintenance’ mode for the genset. It is unknown whether that will accessible by the owner.
-3
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:45 pm)I know you will ignore this, Jim I, but here goes:
So the next time you are a gas station with a low gas tank, just stand in front of a pump and declare “the car is supposed to work for me, not the other way around” as you plan to with EVs and then drive off again without filling your tank and see how you get with that attitude repeated. The name for what you describe in your thinking is cognitive dissonance. You are planning to apply a standard to EVs that you fail to follow in your current use of ICEs.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:48 pm)I’m sure he realizes better place muddies the waters and conceptually elicits a lot of negative reactions. People don’t want to think about infrastructure because it’s a frustration that is out of their hands. Although electrical outlets are vastly more common than gas stations the iffyness of an unfamiliar outlet precludes any consideration of it’s use, before the long wait of the standard 120 plug even comes into play.
Electrical outlets are simply way more common than gas pumps. But consider stopping at Joe’s closed gas station at 2 AM. In your ICE the police may ask why are you here and you say “I’m looking for one that’s open.”
In your BEV you find a weather capped, GFI protected exterior wall outlet and you juice up until the police arrive and say, why are you stealing Joe’s electricity. You answer, “Uh oh.”
In your BEV every where there are structures with human activity there will be a place for a slow charge. But the fact that you have to convince someone to let you have it makes charging opportunities seem rarer than gas pumps. It’s the old mom told me not to talk to strangers thing. If they say yes you can charge it, will you have to listen to a 40 minute lecture on how stupid electric cars are because the range is too short?
If there is an area wide outage like Lyle faced in his Mini E then you are stuck. But if you were out of gas the pumps won’t be working either.
I think Better Place would be a complete annoyance to just about everyone except someone whose charge gauge was giving them a lot of anxiety. Then knowing there was a charge station that could charge as fast as their OEM allowed or the rare battery swap for the few that would sign up, would get the reaction OMG that’s great, just what I needed (to counter my stupid failure to properly plan).
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:48 pm)Right.
Because no prospective vehicle buyers could possibly have any environmental or any other concerns. You never want to show a customer that you might share their concerns or have your product be part of the solution to those concerns. Oh wait, don’t they teach the opposite of that attitude in Marketing 00000001?
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:50 pm)It’s gonna have to be accesable by any “Pat Q Public”.OR Only SMOG Techs. Whch do you think they will grant?
lol….
Good Q though, I asked that a few months ago and nobody really knows.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:51 pm)do you know the word ‘scam’ captain?, do you believe the price of that for a BEV?… if it is true…great…why not?
stick on the BACKUP GENERATOR TRAILER FOR BEV business captain, i might buy a share from your company…hehehe
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:54 pm)I doubt it. It will fly more than you think. Are you assuming they all commute from NYC to the burbs? Many also live around town ot Loft, apt, condo…..etc….
Leave the weekend driving to your ICE car. Like I said before, just because your car is paid off doesn’t mean you have to trade it in for a new one to get back in debt. Go a few months without a payment, build a down pmt and buy the BEV or Volt.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:54 pm)It seems to me that the “no range extender” option is absolutely possible. Let them get the Gen 1 out the door and onto “MY” driveway and THEN worry about variants.
If some miracle happens and they figure out how to make a 100kw battery for $100 then Voltec drive is well positioned to either remove the genset or just need it a whole lot less.
As for all engines being the same… errr I’ll leave that one mostly alone but this IS an automotive enthusiast site… Most people here can see significant differences between the engines.
Pooling the knowledge… I can see the word anticompetitive thrown out in a flurry and a whole bunch of laywers would ge very rich out of it.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:00 pm)I agree completely. It’s the way most people think and it fits the mid 20th century lifestyle perfectly. But I won’t be around that much longer and Mark Perry talks about what denizens of the latter 21st century will be facing more and more when he says,
“People today are used to having no restraints. So you can buy as big a house as you want and spend as much money on credit cards as you want and continue to pollute and drive around in a 5000 pound vehicle with 350 miles of gasoline in your tank. Those things clearly are charging.”
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:02 pm)It means you get 75 mile range real……lol
=op
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:04 pm)its a great idea but it takes couple of decades to build BATTERY SWAPPING STATIONS for every 100 mile radius ….2050? best guess according to my NEWBIES THEORY OF EV EVOLUTION…hybrid dominates the market until 2020, then EREVs until 2050…then EV….wanna bet?
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:08 pm)EVO said:
So does that mean you’re going with the Citroen C1 ev’ie, along with CaptainJackSparrow?
4 seater EV, 4 wheels no less
60 mph, so highway capable (but please keep it off the interstates for additional fun and range)
60 to 75 mile range (make that 42 to 52 miles if you drive like Lyle)
Here’s the best part, less than $26,000.
Standard: ABS brakes, electric windows, Radio CD with MP3 input, central locking, 3 or 5 door models, airbags, safety features and safety engineering.
Order yours online today for shipment to your door.
===================
Well, I said, “any EV, with 4 seats, that I can service inside its electric range”, so
A) if I order it, do they ship it to Toronto, Canada?
B) is their a OEM within its electric range to service it for me?
…I’m guessing this is not likely my first EV, hehe
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:08 pm)What if you already have the 2nd car, not too wasteful then.
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:10 pm)Wouldn’t surprise me at all (full disclosure: I’m not a “true believer”).
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:11 pm)Every car / truck that we use today has a unique set of problems that come with them . Overheating , Transmission slippage , load limits , range limits even speed limits . We each choose what will fit the application we need so if you say this or that precludes something from being good you well could be incorrect .
Just like the people that want to make just their energy ideas the primary goal keep the market from expanding at a rate that would make them richer through stopping other programes from proceeding. That witch could bring relief to many right now is held in check untill they get off of self first . The energy we need today is but a fraction of what we will use in the future .
Just as in the 1930′s using a 15watt light was using a lot of energy what we use today will grow and no single source could produce that . Fixsation on one or two sources is a waste of time .
Wind , Solar , Gas , Oil , Geothermal , Chemical and Nuke . Just to name some .
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:12 pm)Add me to the list who wants a BEV, and has no “range anxiety” issues. Like most American families, we have 2 cars. The BEV will replace the second car we have and be used for about 90% of our trips. We live in a large metro area where everything we do is within 10 miles of the house. For that, I really don’t like the idea of hauling around a bunch of weight in the form of a ICE and tank of gas.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:14 pm)Hmmm….
Come 2 think of it, If there were a H( . y . )TERS at the gas stations by me, I’d spend probably more than 15 mins in there……
Lets GITTERDONE!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:14 pm)I’m not keen on the ‘trailer’ myself…I can’t put my finger on why exactly, but doesn’t do it for me. That being said, if it still fit into my, “first EV with 4 seats and serviced locally” mantra…I’d buy it.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:15 pm)LOL
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:16 pm)“Personally, I doubt that batteries will improve all that much beyond where they are today.”
This will go down with the long list of ridiculously wrong statements like “I see no reason why a person would want a computer at home”
I would be suprised if batteries didn’t increase in efficiency and price by about 100% in the next 10 years.
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:17 pm)Nissan/Renault is really being hit hard by the auto depression. My suspicion is that they may be the next auto giant to seek bankruptcy protection/reorganization, and heavy governmental support.
They have taken to hoarding nickles, like Detroit used to do. It shows in their slowing new car development; and in their engine development, as well.
Concentrating only on tiny BEVs is a away to seem to be making progress, but it is just whistling by the graveyard. It will be a half decade or more before the batteries can be improved enough to make BEV prices and ranges work. But when you have no choice, that is what you do. And pray that Project Better Place makes extraordinary progress.
They just announced an interim cheap improvement for their four cylinder engines that eschewed using DI. The y substituted dual port injectors instead. This is reminiscent of the fruitless pinch penny that GM pre-bankruptcy, went through spending money on “High Value” v6 OHV engines, that were unsatisfactory and subsequently are being scrapped, long before anticipated.
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:22 pm)If you were the only one in your State or Province with a supply of gasoline, how far from home would you venture? Even with a large gas tank?
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Count me as a skeptic about Exxon’s intentions. $600 million is peanuts to Exxon–the very definition of “greenwashing.”
That said, this does sound like a very worthwise project. And any money, the oil companies (or anyone really) spends on it (or any viable alternative energy project) the better. Just because it’s starting out as PR move doesn’t mean it can’t turn into something worthwhile.
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:25 pm)We need choice not fixed on one single point or even two or three of the possibility’s that exist and that is the current problem in our market . The I want a monoply on this with no one getting anything untill I get this . Persuit of happyness is having more than one to choose from but that does not preclude choosing to run with just one power option as I have said I can make electric from many diffrent things even coal . But a battery / ice / EREV / car that can use other than one source of power does make common good sense to many more than just Oil or Gas . I can put Solar on the roof of my home or a wind gen . or drill a gas well and get it from there or even use a gethermal power plant in my yard .
The geothermal plant may not power the town but it could power my home and car .
That is making progress is it not ?
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:26 pm)Wait a minute.
“a second car for long drive… sounds American to me….meaning ‘wasteful’…”
But when someone has 2 cars they’re seen as more fortunate?
Is there a double standard going on here?
I hear on this site “What if we can’t afford a second car…” and you’re saying if one can afford it’s wastefull? Even if your primary is a BEV?
Double standards….
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:27 pm)It’s better than my 50 mile real range–Actual range of 70 due to my driving habits, and allowing for a 25% buffer…
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:27 pm)While living in a loft or high rise efficiency apartment, what do city dwellers do with their cars, Either they don’t own one, or if they do they do … They desperately search for a parking space. Seldom parking in the same spot twice.
Where do the so-called micro city-car BEVs recharge?
Answer : They don’t. Result: Micro City-car BEVs don’t sell.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:28 pm)EVO my friend, Jim is saying that with a Volt range anxiety issues are non-existent.
We get that you are happy on your 40 mile electric bike in a rainstorm and that’s GREAT! You have no issues with the range.
You are a better man than I.
I want my car to get me where I need to go WITHOUT going out of routine to allow it to happen.
A 40 mile AER Volt does exactly what your bike does (with the exception of dry hair and your family with you at the destination). But when my Volt gets to mile 41 the genset will start up and I’ll keep going. The electric bike had better be home (or parked in somebody’s carport, I suppose a PBP station could be an option) or else at that point.
IF you didn’t get home before you ran out, how long does it take to “fuel up” your bike? The Volt can have it’s tank topped up in 10 minutes or less.
The whole point of Voltec is to make electric drive accessable to the masses. I think it`s going to be a big winner in the Volt.
I think BEV`s are a long way from general public acceptance for most of the reasons mentioned in todays thread.
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:31 pm)I wonder how many people who claim they would buy this vehicle would actually do so when they find out the ‘real’ recharging time (which I note the Nissan guy carefully avoided discussing). If they are using Lion batteries I would expect the time for a full recharge at 120v would be in excess of 10 -12 hours. The Chinese version all electric has been purchased by less than 100 people and 50 of those were purchased by the Chinese government.
What I suspect they are ‘really’ doing is using this to tool up for future all electrics that don’t have the limited range/excessive recharge issues that this one will. Not a bad strategy all in all, although they could not verbalize that as their strategy,
, “we don’t actually expect anyone to want this thing, we just want to use it to gain manufacturing experience.” would not be a message that would resonate well with Nissan’s BOD.
Since I drive less than 20 miles/day during the week the Volt will be ‘emission free’ for me while I’m working and, after I retire, we plan on only having one car so a limited range/long recharge all electric is NOT on the menu. All bets are of if EEStor actually produces something anywhere close to what they claim…
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:33 pm)Could it be that the specter of automotive electrification is making certain someones a tad nervous?
~~~
Well, Laura; 600 million is better than nothing.
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:34 pm)well Jordan, obviously theres a VIAGRA for women,… ok i apologize fro the PROZAC.. geezzz!!! forgive me but now i understand why you have those things in your mind right now….first of all i believe theres a technology existing right now that is so secret hidden somewhere controlled by our goverment..the thing is Jordan, we are just ordinary people and cannot do any fuckeen thing about it…you should ask yourself why GM is under control of our Goverment right now….where the EREV tech was born… fishy isn’t it?..there is a huge tax money from oil…lets face it ,oil cannot vanish anytime soon, members of secret societies knows that so, those new technologies you know that would jump as to full EV wo’nt happen anytime soon…not for a couple of years until the price of oil is $20 per gallon…you feel me Jordan?
ohhh! shiiiit! now my bros in the secret societies will kill me for this!!!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:40 pm)Heh, you guys BOTH missed Mr Fusion!
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:41 pm)Actually, Herm was talking about the “long cord” argument being a red herring. To me, that sounded like he was saying that solar panels could address the range issue, implying that the solar panels would be on the vehicle, not at the home charging station.
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:53 pm)Algae fuel might turn out to be a bigger deal than people think. People like Bill Gates are investing in it. He’s investing in an algae fuel company named Sapphire Energy.
http://www.sapphireenergy.com/
Craig Venter at Synthetic Genomics is a very serious dude. If he thinks algae fuel will be successful, I would believe it. He’s the kind of entrepreneur that lives to create “disruptive technologies”. If anyone can turn the oil industry upside down it’s him.
http://earth2tech.com/2009/07/14/algaes-big-break-exxon-craig-venter-launch-600m-algae-fuel-effort/#more-36745
Until the world’s scientists come up a miracle battery that charges up in 10 minutes and gives a decent sized vehicle 300+ miles of range, I suppose we’re going to need some sort of liquid fuel onboard our extended range EVs to keep going … for long trips, etc.
The preferred diet to feed our Volts will be electrons of course, but if you gotta give her something else to keep going, it might as well be some bio-gasoline made from algae.
-3
Jul 14th, 2009 (3:55 pm)“You heard wrong. This is hardly news.”
Oh, I see. You put up a few links that conform (helped formulate?) to your point of view, and case closed, discussion is over, you’re obviously right. Kind of like when the Jehovah Witnesses come knocking at your door – only they know what’s correct, and if you don’t agree, well, they’ll pray for you.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:01 pm)Er, what? You’re descending further into gibberish.
Most people in Texas sure as shinola do or will soon, for example.
I chose to be where I am, so not much luck there.
I have no idea what you mean by “the grid” and “private power grid.” My power comes from local, large commercial wind farms over regional utility transmission lines to substations to my housing development to my electric cord to my electric vehicle in a quite short distance for minimal transmission losses.
>O large commercial windfarm to — line to [ ] regional power utility station to — housing development to — my electric vehicle. Clear? It’s really simple and straightforward. It’s just as simple for power from a hydro dam to an electric vehicle in BC or for from any fixed power source to any electric vehicle anywhere.
What you envision seems vague and confused. A private power grid can be an electrical company co-operative, a very common setup for a power company in less populated areas. I’m sure that power customers in remote areas, such as family farmers, would agree that their monthly power bills are more expensive than some things, but less expensive than others. No one is talking about 2 or 3 separate companies pipes in the ground instead of just one except for you but if you insist on doing that, knock yourself out.
I can only speak from my own personal experience, which I hope as it is real, has slightly more merit than wild conjecture about what “most people” and their areas will develop and have access to for alternative energy as electric drive adoption gradually grows, one household rooftop, available for solar panels to supplement regional utility power supplies, at a time. It would be presumptuous for me to think I speak for other people, so I don’t.
I pay a little more than 5 cents a kWh total for my wind power.
I’m no utilities expert, so I’ll let those jump in any time to unbefuddle Gary.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:05 pm)The advantage of an Electric Citroen is that it will not come with the worlds WORST transmission shift linkage! (Otherwise the one I rented was OK.)
But since Citroen do not export to Canada I believe statik`s search will have to continue.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:08 pm)I tell U waht though. If it happens once that you forgot to plug in to charge, It won happen agian…..lol
What say U!
-3
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Thank you for making it clear, Gary, that millions of successful full hybrid sales have nothing at all or little to do with caring about the environment. Imagine how well hybrids could sell if anyone had any idea whatsoever how to market them effectively.
Most hybrid engineering – brilliant.
All hybrid marketing – either nonexistent or completely clueless.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:09 pm)It can range from around 1250 watts for a one ton compressor, to about 2,000 watts for a one and a half ton compressor.
This data comes from my assistance to Austin EV engineers to calibrate both the quantity of (special) oil charge & 134a refrigerant for an electric AC compressor and controller system they installed into a 2002 Saturn converted to EV.
(My White Industries Recovery Recycling Recharge machine was used to quantify the needed values).
The watt demand meter which they installed into the Saturn EV indicated this wattage demand for a one-ton electric compressor.
Ambient outside temp was 98 degrees and it was fairly humid.
I would definitely request any higher optional compressor tonnage for a Voltec vehicle for here of that was available. Based on low heat inertia interior materials and heat-blocking glass characteristics, 1.5 tons of refrigeration should be enough for the cabin cooling. But I would not mind having an overcapacity just in case we get to the point of thermal excessive loading (in several possible regards).
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:10 pm)I don’t think “zero emissions ” for me is 30 years away. I have 5000 watts of PV cells on my home which is all electric. Cooks , pumps water, cool, heats, dries clothes, etc, etc and over the last 10 months we have consumed a net of 1000 kwh or 10 kwh per month. When the electric car comes out , I will add PV cells to pump my car batteries up. Is that not zero emissions??
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:12 pm)By “personal power line” I gathered that you meant the electrical cord that I own that I use to plug my electric vehicle into a regular wall socket to access the local wind power distributed by my regional power utility.
Now I’m unconvinced that you know what you meant.
-3
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:13 pm)Why would I ever buy a car that has limitations? Until pure electrics can charge in 2 to 3 minutes and there are charging stations every 100 miles, I won’t own one. Plus look at that thing. The Prius looks a little better this year. The Insight looks even better but it’s still not EREV. The Volt beats them all in looks and it doesn’t have any range issues. Buy a car just for commuting? That’s stupid and certainly doesn’t cater to those of us that are single. I’m going to pay insurance on two cars just so I can have one to commute with and one to drive on long distance trips? Yeah, that makes sense.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:14 pm)I’ve pushed more than one ICE car onto the shoulder, due to a failure of some sort — and police and towtruck drivers are available for those who aren’t so motivated. We as a society know how to deal with this.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:23 pm)I’m with you. Those people who claim they won’t suffer range anxiety are fooling themselves. When they first buy their BEV they will constantly look at that battery guage. That’s range anxiety, but expected when you first start driving a BEV so we’ll give that a free pass. Then they will become used to how far they can go on a charge and become negligent about looking at that guage. What they wont realize is that the spouse used the car and went 40 miles this morning when they have a need to go 65 this afternoon. When the car dies or they are half way to their destination and have to turn back, well range anxiety will hit them like a brick. I’ll pass them by with my EREV and yell out the window – I told you so.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:23 pm)You’re going to haul around the extra weight of expensive batteries for no valid reason.
Why not haul around a small, electricity generating gas engine that can get you wherever you want to go, whenever you need to go, even if you can’t charge up?
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:25 pm)On a road trip where I was forced (due to traffic conditions) to cover 300 km at a very steady 80 kph my Subaru 2.5 engined impreza returned near 40 mpg (converted) It’s a great car but normally mileage like that is unheard of in an Impreza. The ‘hypermiler’ style driving DID yield excellent ecomomy, but I almost lost my mind driving so slow!
I have no problem with the EPA numbers.
Yes they are a work of fiction, but it`s a consistant fiction over all cars.
It works as a reasonable benchmark to compare apples to frogs. (Volts to Hummers?)
I am not against static’s ABC rating either but it would need to be applied to all cars evenly to mean anything at all.
(OK, I want to see the rating on a Hummer H2 on “C”!)
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:26 pm)If battery technology does advance as they say, future Volts will drop in a battery where that ICE sets now. GM loses nothing.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:27 pm)I’d be good with that… pretty pictures… oooooooooo
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:29 pm)By that definition nearly any BEV would be a hybrid as most peoples electric power comes from more than a single source.
An E-REV’s propulsion is always provided by the electric motor, what is at issue is where the electricity comes from. So on one hand I can see the argument that says it’s not a hybrid, on the other hand since an ICE is included I can see the argument that it is a hybrid. But the distinctions between the different types of vehicles is not always clear cut.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:34 pm)newbie,
It’s GREAT that you have joined our group!
Please try to keep it civil though, there is no need to call names.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:38 pm)“Why would I ever buy a car that has limitations?”
You’ll have a choice, in the tone of Red Forman,….”you dumba$$”. If you don’t want one then don’t get one. You’re obviously one of those who go out to buy a new car just because yours is either paid off or close to just for the “Vanity” of it and stay in debt for even longer to never own the pink.
But of course it is YOUR CHOICE!
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:38 pm)From potentially the most important speech ever given on fuel cell cars by GM’s Larry Burns:
Quote #1
“The potential societal and customer benefits of fuel cell electric vehicles are clear and compelling. Fuel cell technology promises to deliver family-sized automobiles that are fun to drive, safe, look great, refuel fast, go far between fill-ups, and are emissions-free and petroleum-free. And very importantly it holds the promise to do all of this while keeping automobiles affordable to own and operate. Quite honestly, no other technology offers this exciting potential.”
Quote #2
“It’s great to have small numbers of these vehicles running around. But be very, very clear, the mission is to heavily penetrate the 70 million cars and trucks that are built worldwide each year with this technology.”
Quote #3
“We feel it is past time for the necessary infrastructure to accelerate. What is urgently needed is sufficient investment by energy providers and the cooperation of government to assure auto companies that the required hydrogen infrastructure will be in place when we deploy our next generation of fuel cell electric vehicles.”
Notice that Burn’s does not say fuel cell or BEV. He says fuel cell
quite clearly. The infrastructure does need building even if the first
stations have to steam reform methane.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:39 pm)Lyle
Respectfully, you’ve recently implemented something that needs to be rolled back.
When you first started the multi-threading, a reply to any comment was posted at the bottom of the sub-thread.
Now, any reply made to a comment is inserted directly below the comment. At first glance, this sounds like a better solution; but what happens is that the whole mess gets unreadable after awhile.
I don’t know what else to suggest at this moment other than rolling back to the original multi-thread format.
I wouldn’t know how to code this, but if a comment below a comment was replied to (and another comment was already below it), perhaps a “right-arrow” link could appear which would open the resulting side-thread.
The way it is now is pretty unworkable (today is a case in point: 300+ and the only way you can follow discussions is to look at the timestamps).
I realize that you’ve got other things to do besides run this website (which you have done remarkably well), but perhaps a web-guru in the community could pitch in?
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:40 pm)Use the $7500 fed rebat the following year to pump your pv to an additional 1KW or more. Then the following, I think, you get a rebate for that as well…..
One of those rare positive “Vicious Circles”.
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:40 pm)Heh heh, I followed the link to get the def too!
Pretty much what I thought it meant…
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:41 pm)Good post Todd,
Here’s another one: I live in the Pacific Northwest where we have wind storms that knock out our electric several times year. I don’t want to wake up some morning and find my BEV can’t get me to work because the power has been out all night.
Sure, I have an emergency generator in my shed, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to go out in the rain and start up an inefficient, noisy gas engine to charge up my electric car!
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:42 pm)LOL!
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:43 pm)Based on this data, a 2 kilowatt constant extra electrical demand when stuck in traffic may cut as much as 25 percent of your range. But up North where heat loading is not as drastic, a one ton compressor would be fine.
As the pack gets older and the range decreases, that very same demand for Air Conditioning remains the same fixed value, and may increase the percentage of the cut relative to the decrease in remaining battery range as time and mileage on it goes by. This is the longer term situation that gives rise for the concerns that I have been writing about. A new battery will perform peachy. What happens when it is two or three years old?
Lyle could also let us know what the apparent range differences are up there in New York State for the MINI-E.
This site is exactly what’s needed for all of our learning the most we can in the least amount of time. Nowhere else can you get this type of excellent technical interaction from everybody, and it’s really great.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:44 pm)cognitive dissonance?
I had to look that one up…..
Sorry but I completely disagree with your analogy.
With the current infrastructure, If I am driving, and need to make extra stops, and then I need to fuel up, I can do so within five minutes of just about anyplace I happen to be. I do not have to plan exactly what I will be able to do on that particular day, and if I would have to take a different vehicle. And some days, my wife leaves for work before I do, so that would involve her in this planning as well. And this does not even take into consideration changes to the planning that frequently come up when you own your own business or have other family members in the household.
I could just imagine one of my larger customers calling and asking me to stop by after lunch to talk over some ideas he has that may make a nice sale for the company. And if I say “Sorry, I only have 20 miles left on the battery pack in the car, so could we make it for tomorrow?”, I might as well tell him to just call a competitor. That is how it is in the real world……….
Obviously, in your circumstances, an electric motorcycle works for you. That is fine. But to tell everyone else that they are wrong for not wanting to make significant changes to their lives because of a car, is simply silly.
At this point in time, the E-REV design of the Volt will suit my needs with almost no changes in how I live. I will plug it in at night when I get home, and unplug it when I am leaving the house. Other than that, it is a car, that will work like every other car I have bought since my 1973 Mustang Mach 1, except that for the first 40 miles, I will not use any gas!
Can you say the same about a BEV that “may or may not” get a range of 100 miles before it stops? The answer is no.
A car is a tool, like a cell phone, a computer, or even a hammer. It is supposed to make my life simpler and more convenient. If it can not do that, then why do I need it?
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:45 pm)What kind of solar cells are they? Silicon?
Sand was first mined and shipped to the cell manufacturer, and Silicon was liberated from it and ultra-purified. A large crystal was grown at very high temperatures. The crystal ingot was then carefully sawed into wafers with a diamond cutter, and doped in a vacuum chamber to produce a PN junction. Conductive stripes were applied across the top, and leads soldered. The cells were shipped to a panel manufacturer to be integrated into rooftop units. Then, the panels were shipped to your home.
At every point, energy was expended.
Where did this energy originally come from?
(There is at least one “solar breeder” facility that I’ve heard of, which is itself covered with solar cells, but I haven’t heard anything more since it first opened).
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:53 pm)The Nissan has four rotating wheels (tires). Use magnetic energy to create a small amount of electricity.
Moving electrons ARE the electricity that flows to our homes. A magnetic field can move electricity. Copper, for example, has electrons that are loosely held. They are easily pushed from their shells. Every time a magnetic field changes, an electric field is created. Every time an electric field changes, a magnetic field is created. It’s a simple task to use the turning wheels of the Nissan to create range boosting electricity.
How much air is flowing into and over the Nissan? Enough to turn small turbines. Use a ram air type intake at the grill. The effected turbine (under the hood) will spin magnets inside a coil. Producing a small amount of electricity to extend range.
Add turbine, wheel generators, solar roof, and brake regen and you may reach an acceptable minimum range on the Nissan.
=D~
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:54 pm)EVERY car has limitations. A mini cooper can’t pull a boat, for example, so boat owners don’t drive mini coopers.
If a BEV doesn’t work for you, know one is forcing you to buy one.
Duh.
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (4:58 pm)This is one goofy looking car, propulsion system notwithstanding.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:00 pm)Yeah, sometimes I wonder if anybody read my posts because I may “reply” to an early post.
Are readers who have already gone through the posts going to backtrack to see if there are any new replies… ??
I guess the whole issue of blogging is inherently confusing.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:00 pm)Interesting how you know so much about how everyone lives to be able to make such an assumtion in this scenario.
So you’re assuming the wife often takes husbands car. I know many folks that have their own cars and know that such a scenario will never exist for them.
As many have pointed out if you can not be responsible of the BEV you have then yourself to blame.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:01 pm)Let me give you a scenario.
The BEV driver you passed has two cars you have one. Your EREV dies and you don’t know why. The BEV owner drives by you in their second car because they own both because they know one is primary and the other secondary and he/she didn’t trade in their car for the latest and greatest for a single car.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:04 pm)Okay, then prove that the statement is false. If you can’t then your statement is ridiculously wrong. Good luck.
Apparently you are unaware of limits and bounds. These are the most important aspect of a scientific or engineering education. Higher energy density batteries have been the holy grail of energy storage researchers for a century now. Yet now the only truly encouraging words we are hearing are from supercapacitors, and those claims are highly suspect.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:05 pm)I may have counted wrong, but there are approximately 74 posts before “post” #2 showed up!
And trying to follow the stripey things on the side is making my head spin.
Lyle, we luv ya, but… can you fix this?
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:06 pm)Nissan is trying with BEV’s what GM is trying with EREV’s. To be the most efficient mass manufacturer by being first mover and driving down costs, while volumes are low enough to enter the market more easily with subsidies, both governmental and from investing money earned from ICE buyers.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:08 pm)GM loses nothing? What?! Do you realize how expensive R&D is? Do you think developing an integrated ICE-battery architecture is costing them nothing? What about all the posts on this site, indicating that GM has been struggling with ICE control software, to the point they will not demo the ICE turning on?
The whole game is return on investment (ROI). This is fundamental to any corporation (and almost nothing else, I’m afraid).
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:10 pm)lol…
Hey dude, you just reminded me of a news thing I saw on tv. It’s a situation that does happen, probably more than your storm outtage.
A woman get’s up in the morning and get’s ready for work. Jumps in her Chevy big SUV (can’t remember the model) and notices her fuel guage @ empty. She recalls filling up the day before getting home. A brief inspection revealed her gas was stollen.
Range anxiety in a ICE car there dude….
OK so it doesn’t exactly parallel but the fuel is not there all the same.
lol…
Immagogettanotherbeer.
+2
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:10 pm)There’s definitely a place for the BEV, but that place is not as a primary car. They will compete with the current dominant model, the ICE, which has the excellent feature of practically-unlimited range. (And also, by the way, excellent power and energy density.)
There will be some electric-only cars sold, no doubt. But they will never be the mainstream vehicle until they can be recharged in a matter of minutes. A modern battery car is like a gasoline car with the gas cap welded shut, and that’s not good enough to replace gasoline (unless the cost savings were almost unimaginably enormous.). “Range anxiety” is not just for everyday drives (though I must admit, the thought of having a range only a small multiple of my expected drive would be a bit unnerving, and probably occasionally limiting), but is also about occasional long-distance travel. Lots of people drive cross-county occasionally, or at least think they might, and a BEV is pretty poor at this.
Someday, we may be able to flash-charge 200 miles into supercapacitors or something. But until then, combining the refuelability of an ICE and the efficiency, energy source flexibility, and performance characteristics of electric drive is a pretty good idea.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:11 pm)Thank Michael Robinson. By the way, why did you pick this section of comments to add on to?
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:13 pm)That’s kind of like saying, where’d the energy come from to put the water in the stream to turn my water wheel generator….
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:19 pm)Or at a very nice little country cafe, nowhere near a gas station, while I’m sipping espresso, doing some telecommuting technical analysis for $, and posting on here on my laptop with wi-fi while I’m recharging my 40 mile AER vehicle, rinse and repeat as often as wanted. Ha!
You forget that my vehicle type has already won a hard core 24 hour off road endurance race with more than 500 miles within 24 hours.
What I am hearing from you is that you want to use a canoe without going out of your jetski routine to allow it to happen. Since you don’t carry a canoe paddle onto a jetski, your desire sounds like you haven’t quite thought it through to me. Your routine with an EV will be of course be different from a gasser, but not worse, just different and in some ways superior. Of course, with the Volt you get a canoe with jetski parts that operate the paddle for you if your muscles need a rest, so power to you.
Since I didn’t think it through at all, just bought my electric vehicle and started to use it immediately on delivery at my doorstep, it was probably easier for me to actually make the tramnsition than all the mental machinations you are going through now trying to imagine it.
I will say that how I interact with my rechargings tends to go through major transitions every few months, as new charging possibilities and ideas emerge at my destinations and on my route. It’s an ever improving work in progress, to the point now that I can’t see any situation stranding me, including power outages. I use my full range several times a year, with absolutley no fear, now that I know I can do it, with well known permitted recharging options available along the way, too. Keep in mind that Lyle successfully made the trips work where he had range anxiety and now knows better what is really possible, what he needs to develop workarounds for (power outage at his work), and how to extend range on the fly, which should radicaly reduce that anxiety in the future.
I’m here to tell you that for me, the routine started out a little weird and awkward, just because it was new, like learning to shift for the first few months or parallel parking and gradually and quickly gets easier as you actively work (why would wilfully make your own life more difficult than need be or make things break on purpose – no gold stars for doing that) to make your own life with an EV easier for you until it is second nature and using a full gasser becomes the more awkward transition by comparison. I’ve been doing this more than a year longer than Lyle has so let’s get his take on it after he’s had his mini E for two years (couldn’t resist a little dig).
Same thing if Jim I was a first timer trying to use a gasser stick shift to start from a stop while pointed uphill halfway up a steep hill. It would race, slip back or balk the very first time and Jim would say “but the car is supposed to work for me, not the other way around”, set the parking brake, walk off and leave the gasser stranded on the hill.
Ok, I made my point and hear MuddyRoverBob’s loud and clear.
It’s just that I’m trying to be the main source of muddled thinking on this site and all you better informed folks keep wrecking that with your superior comments.
Really, your question on time to recharge tells far more about your inexperience with using an electric vehicle, and merging its ways with yours, than it does about my particular electric vehicle. What you perceive as a limitation simply doesn’t exist for me in the way that I use my electric vehicle.
It takes me no time to recharge, as I never have it recharge at any time (including on timers) unless I’m also doing other things (work, shopping, sleeping, errand, movie, quickie (Italians with mopeds set the standard there, I’m afraid), etc. When I’m finished with my other thing(s), presto, fully recharged. As I’ve already described in great detail and length on this site, I have robust methids already set up for charging away from home to the point that it’s second nature to me if need be – just takes a second to plug it in and continue my usual daily activities and the same when my daily activities get to when it’s time to pull the plug, fully recharged.
Worst case scenario, It’d take me about 10 minutes to recharge enough to get home from work if my power pack somehow magically completely drained itself, maybe by unicorns sucking all the juce out the power pack? That hasn’t ever happened.
I’m trying to be nice, helpful and explanatory with all this, but really it’s frustrating to try to explain when if you all just got an electric vehicle, alreday, and used it for a few months, you’d realize how fall off a log easy it is for recharging to be a normal part of your normal life and in many ways much easier than with a full gasser.
After all, remember how easy life was before cell phones and how difficult it’s been to recharge them and how they totally failed because recharging was so difficult? No. I didn’t think so.
Sure cell phones can run out of charge. Advance planning and avoiding the situations that cause that (don’t take them while turned on or under heavy power use on long trips with long time periods between outlets). Pretty easy workarounds. Too bad that rental vehicle companies, shuttle vans, taxis, trains, buses, planes, bicycles and walking don’t exist to supplement electric vehicles to make them work easily. Oh, they do?
After all that, I still like the Volt concept and think it will sell hotcakes. But don’t there isn’t a decent sized role for pure BEVs, too. There is.
You don’t have to try to put down BEVs to promote ER-EVs. Really.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:21 pm)I think there will be a lot of differing opinions here. I like the multilayered threads that allow replies where they are appropriate but I see your point. One thing that was suggested a few posts ago was to have a most recent comment section for each post. Right now there is only a most recent comment section on the home page, for the whole blog. If the 10 most recent comments were in a section just above or below the “Recent Posts” section at the top right of each post, I think it would address a lot of the complaints that I’ve seen. It sure would help make staying up to date on a post a lot quicker.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:22 pm)The EPA already has two sets of ICE ratings. Still not too real world for most of us unless we’re staring at screen full of graphics that measures our consumption and economy. They just need to add the Statik C and put all three on the sticker!
EREVs and plug-ins, as the mixed bag part of the ratings system, could use that sticker for the gas part of their ratings.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:26 pm)If I could rent the trailer for the few times I’d need it, maybe that would work. Seems like one of those toys I’d spend more time maintaining than driving/towing/piloting/flying!!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:27 pm)He didn’t ask for a battery pack >16KWh? Are there any EREV’s out there with 16KWh battery packs <16KWh or are there any EREV’s out there at all? Why do people fight other people’s wants?
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:34 pm)I agree that is a big part of it but I think there is more to it. There is finally enough support from both the left and right sides of the political specturm and Joe Chevy to move away from gas. I think this is more is response to public awareness and political climate than EV’s but they do play a role too. Oil companiies know a thing or two about reserves and cost of recovery as well. There is a lot at play here and I think it is more than greenwashing by the oil companies. That said, you can be sure they want a solution they can provide a deliverable for and not a grid or home based solution. There will be a lot of anti-BEV flak forthcoming.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:36 pm)Any air you bring in is added to air resistance. The same factor that sent the Volt in the wind tunnel in the first place (note the closed grill). With friction and conversion losses and the weight and dollar costs of installed devices, you’ll fall way behind where you started. No free lunch, no free electrons.
-7
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:38 pm)no one forces anyone, this is a discussion you stupid moron!!!
want one more beer?
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:43 pm)So true Capt.Jack!
GO EV!!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:44 pm)That kind of thinking will get you shot on this site!
Smartin’ up!
GO EV!!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:44 pm)Seems like two very large markets, if they are able to get any traction with the product. Time will tell.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:45 pm)But I thought that was the whole purpose of these city “Lofts”. To live by and around your work and have all your stores close to and around you, therfore not need a car?
At least that’s what was advertised here.
But yet, many have cars.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:45 pm)BINGO !!!!
GO EV !!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:51 pm)Yeh, I know scam. It’s what I do to a MILF when I undress her with my eye’s.
Yeah, I’m crude, what can I say…..
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:52 pm)While 100 miles and 40 miles may be marginal and substantial respectively for the percentage of the population GM has cited in commuter behavior studies, at this point we have no idea what is marginal wrt sales velocities or volumes in the coming years. Too many variables. We don’t even have any idea where gas prices will be when these cars are introduced. Mr. Market has yet to speak and render those final judgments.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:54 pm)It’s my understanding that the nose of the Volt may be louvered. Opening and closing for electric motor cooling. Use this flow to spin a turbine before using it to cool.
Kirk: [hailing Khan] This is Admiral Kirk. We tried it once your way, Khan, are you game for a rematch? Khan, I’m laughing at the “superior intellect.”
Khan: Full impulse power!
Joachim: No, sir! You have Genesis! You can have whatever…
Khan: [grabs Joachim in anger] FULL POWER! DAMN YOU!
=D~
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:55 pm)BINGO nuclearboy !
GO EV !!!
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:56 pm)I like what that the interviewee is saying, it makes sense to me. They’re getting started on electric-only for now and as production increases and battery technology improves, they can slowly improve on the range. It probably won’t be that long until the battery can achieve 300+ mile range for the same price as today’s 100 mile battery. When that happens they’ll have saved the trouble and cost of developing E-REV technology.
If that happens then cars like the Volt may become obsolete or less attractive, unless you reeaally want to be able to go 300 miles electric plus 300 on gas, or you really can’t wait for it to charge (I assume they are working on shortening that too).
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:57 pm)Little by little, it begins!!!
GO EV !!!
+3
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:59 pm)And thousands more… actually one million, six hundred and ten thousand links to academic journal articles, industry studies, expert reviews, seminars, conferences, and well respected media channels, but who’s counting?
So you are saying that Afghanistan is not in a part of the world considered meanful for energy pipelines and that the near east/asia has no natural gas or oil?
Where were your links to sources that back you up?
I could be even more general and say non-rewewable, non-recyclable energy resources, rather than oil, I’ll give you that much.
Jul 14th, 2009 (5:59 pm)With a Project Better Place battery replacement station within reasonable distance your range anxiety would be exactly zero.
PBP also has plans to build charging posts for “regular” EV charging via plugging into a charger. It will take a good long while to install so many charging places, granted, but once installed the term “range anxiety” will only apply to gas vehicles as more and more gas stations close their doors or are converted to Project Better Place battery replacement stations.
Viva La EV Revolucion!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:01 pm)As battery technology improves Nissan may be able to simply replace the old cells with new ones, and new sets of numbers will pop up on their nav/status screens.
As progress occurs in energy density, chemistry and price outside of their own progress on the car, it simplifies or eliminates all the coordination issues with EREV’s and especially parallel hybrids.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:03 pm)EV’s wish list ranking for KOZ household:
1) 1 160 mile BEV + 1 80 “real” miles BEV + 1 generator trailer
2) 1 Volt + 1 80 “real” miles BEV
3) 2 Volts
PBP would work for me if costs are good and stations are put in (not holding my breath)
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:04 pm)…not a parallel hybrid?
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:06 pm)Fair enough.
I have no complaint about your view of people being able to do stupid things. I do every time I post.
My AER on my electric motorcycle is a measly 40 miles, which is more than enough for me and my 26 mile daily across town commute plus errands plus some off road romping and enough for one of it to go over 500 miles within 24 hours to win an extreme off road motocross 24 hour endurance race.
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:15 pm)Yep, monkeywrenching commences.
What service? Electric drive, so absolutely minimal. You want to upgrade the performance, you order the plug and play part and swap’em out when it arrives.
Also, if you mailed the whole thing back and forth for service, it couldn’t possible take any longer than my full gasser dealership did with their work.
I have no idea about shipping, but would hope that Canada would allow such a desirable vehicle to exist within it’s borders, especially since it’s made in the same country (UK). Then again, it’s kicked its own domestic medium speed EV maker, ZENN, in the head repeatedly, so we clearly can’t count on the baboons in government (yes, the ones with the sharp, slavering fangs and red butts) getting out of the way of the inevitable. They’ll get run over by it, instead.
I suggest you contact the company and tell them to get it into Canada if you want one.
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:17 pm)I’d like to see gm-volt.com be more like my favorite NFL team’s message board …. the Miami Dolphins.
http://www.finheaven.com/forums/
When you put in a reply to someone’s post on Finheaven, it drops down to the bottom of the screen instead of staying in the original location. You can also add pictures, avatars …. all that stuff.
It would take up more bandwidth and storage space though. Lyle would have to spend some more money. Maybe we could all contribute $5+ for a gm-volt.com upgrade?
-2
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:22 pm)EVO, I’m gonna make an assumption, and that is like me, you have zero FIRST-HAND knowledge of what is going on in the Middle East. You’ve never been to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc. Everything you “know” comes from books and internet links, or maybe a friend, family member or acquaintance or two that’s been there (6 degrees of separation and all).
If I’m wrong, then I apologize. If I’m right, then all that your links tell me is that you’ve bought in on a particular train of thought. It may be right or it may be wrong, as would any list of links I could post. That’s why I didn’t post a list of links, as it would be futile to get into a “links” arms race on this blog that, after all, is centered on the Chevy Volt.
Many of your posts have a very combative tone to them. As Stanley Horowitz said, “Nothing lowers the level of conversation more than raising the voice.” It’s all too easy to raise one’s voice in this world of anonymous blogging.
Peace out
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:22 pm)Sorry DonC, the last 20 years means didly. The amount of investment and shear number of entities and researchers now working on advancing batteries has already accelerated development and this will only increase over the next few years. A123 just provided their specs on their new Prismatic cells. They have 30% higher specific energy than 2 years ago. Look at LiCO cells and the ones available today versus 5 years ago. Look at LiMn batteries versus 5 years…whoops…they didn’t even exist commercially 5 years ago. Truthfully nobody knows for sure how far and how fast batteries will advance, but it seems like a pretty fair bet that they will be much improved 5 years from now and that gas will be much more expensive then as well.
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:25 pm)Ditto!
GO EV !!!
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:26 pm)There are always excellent perspectives here.
But here is what I have always been up to since I started ever posting here.
I say all sorts of things not to just get critical subject matter to be discussed by you very dedicated people here, but, in so doing, my insistence on almost all these topics are also for other OEM’s to look closely at what the results of what all of us discuss here as relates to future potential customer satisfaction.
In essence, with my background on serving your technical needs on your cars and trucks, what I have always been doing here is “HOLDING OEM’S TOES TO THE FIRE.”
Why? Not at all to be a trouble maker, but just the opposite, to be a trouble preventer.
You see, CEO’s, Board Chairpersons, upper management, and on and on, have the very toughest of problems with the electrification of the auto. Most are clerical. Different ways all posters here say things helps them make their critical decisions more reliably, it seems to me. That’s why I find a way to like what people here say in some perspective or another.
My posts are in part to help them remember or ask their internal engineers about the topics and concerns raised that all of you help to discuss (for them all).
It was suggested a few posts back that I had a conflict of interest in that electrification would drive me out of business.
It is driving my business upwards faster than I had ever imagined it would. No technical topic should ever intimidate us to ask about if it is a valid concern professionally spoken.
If there are to be BEV’s then, they must be the very best that any OEM can place you in for the money you will spend.
As Lyle had pointed out to us all, the MINI-E began to slow down significantly before the rated AER. But, discussing all that is what is an asset to that (market-courageous) OEM, and never are any of these discussions a liability, because what everyone says here are generally their true opinions or research which all benefit that OEM as well as the other OEM’s.
As well, any OEM who interviews here, provides us with a glimpse of an insight into their plans,which, generously helps us to better understand what is right for us. We are really really lucky to have this site for that.
My position is not a “devil’s advocate” so much as it is often a positive reinforcement (or a strong adverse caution) for an OEM for what they already know, (yet from a differing perspective, strengthens their assurances hopefully to prevent losses). My goal is always to help prevent losses of all kinds, especially for you.
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:58 pm)Jordan,
Nice to have you on the forums, a lot of new faces recently…or posters who have just recently come out of the shadows, lol.
Don’t even bother to react at all to ‘over the top’ outbursts, it is pointless exercise.
I think I know where you are heading, (supertakers? cow burping? lol), but for the most part we seem to be very tunnel-visioned on EVs, and the Volt…which is also pretty fair, considering the site is dedicated to them, heeh. I used to meander down those roads from time to time myself…but it is rough slogging.
Sidenote: I always wondered who the ‘other’ girl was that was messing up our 100% demographic besides LauraM. (=
Jul 14th, 2009 (6:59 pm)A BEV itself is not a hybrid. It’s primary and only source of propulsion is Electricity from the battery. Nothing else in or on the car. This just as a ICE only car is not a hybrid in that torque is the source of propulsion and nothing else in or on the car.
The volt on the otherhand has the battery as a source and the ICE Genset. It’s a mix of the electrons from both. It’s a hybrid.
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:22 pm)Why would I ever buy a car that has limitations? … That’s stupid and certainly doesn’t cater to those of us that are single.
HMMM, I wonder if the two thoughts are related?
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:27 pm)I read that it takes about 5 years of solar panel use to go energy positive and overcome the sunk energy invested in production.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:28 pm)http://gm-volt.com/forum/
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:44 pm)It seems a lot of people haven’t seen what’s been happening with ethanol for quite a while. Here in the 21st century, things have changed.
Ethanol is already being made from cellulose using gasification:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9928810-54.html
Using no additional land, they can replace up to 35% of our current gasoline consumption:
http://www.coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp
These arguments about ethanol effecting food supply are ancient history.
If ethanol can replace 35% of gas, and EREVs can replace 80% of gas, together that’s 115% – more than enough to eliminate gasoline, and all using our existing infrastructure of 110 volt home outlets and liquid filling stations. No need for electrical fast charging stations that will blow people up. No need for battery swapping stations that will cost a fortune.
-1
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:46 pm)Why haven’t you replaced your 2nd car with a golf cart yet?
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:46 pm)Biofuels can be used to meet the low carbon fuel mandate. Have a read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbon_fuel_standard
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:50 pm)Hi Michael! Just keep posting that H stuff. You da’ man!
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:51 pm)Yes batteries will be better. No argument there, though “better” can mean many things — safer, more cycles, and so forth. The issue is whether they will be cheaper. Given that 70% or 80% of the cost of the cells is raw material cost, it’s hard to see how they get a lot less expensive.
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:52 pm)Sidenotes for late in the thread:
Someone was telling me the other day that Fritz wasn’t really lying when he testified 2 weeks ago that everything was going better than expected for sales, even though GM dropped a whopper 48 hours later…because we, as laymen, couldn’t understand the interior workings and expectations.
Well, it is two weeks after that, and now we have this:
—————
“GM CEO says July sales appear weaker than year ago”
ANN ARBOR, Mich. (AP) — General Motors Co.’s top executive described July auto sales as weak compared with the same month last year, but said it’s still early.
The new GM, which just emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Friday, has said its debt load and other expenses have been reduced so much that it can become profitable at a 10 million to 10.5 million annual sales rate.
CEO Fritz Henderson, speaking to reporters Tuesday at an event to launch the redesigned Buick LaCrosse sedan, said it seems like industrywide U.S. sales will once again fall below an annual rate of 10 million vehicles this month.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gW3jw2BrTYMpQ00r6bYlFeqaP1PAD99EHLDO0
Of interest July was the start of the worst of the months for GM last year, they were off 26.7%…so this is compounding badness.
…can anyone say, continued, unprecented cash burn for ‘new GM’? Yupper. Mark LaNeve is going to be working hard this month.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:53 pm)OH, THIS WOULD BE THE SOLUTION TO RANGE ANXIETY!!!!!!
You put a BIG rubber bumper on the rear of your BEV. Then, when you run out of charge, you ask the guy driving his ICE, to give you a push. You depress the brake pedal slightly to get the car to regen, and recharge your batteries.
Oh, how simple and wonderful. Patent pending on that big A$$ bumper….
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:57 pm)“I pay a little more than 5 cents a kWh total for my wind power.”
Sorry, but that simply can not be true in aggregate.
The figures I have seen for generating -wholesale- prices of Wind Farms in variety of places from Deleware to Colorado place electricity prices north of 15 cents (US) per kWh for Wind Power to break even for the plant. This results in consumer prices more like 17-20 cents per kWh.
In relation to Wind Power in general. You may pay special for “Wind Power”, but your actual power is not provided by Wind Power. You are just drawing power from the grid and paying the provider a bonus to purchase Wind Power, which they may or may not be doing. In reality, your carbon footprint is the same size as anyone else on your power grid. You are just paying a bonus to reduce everyone footprint….
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:58 pm)lol
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:58 pm)Also of interest (on the good side):
I was happy when Lutz said the G8 would live on. I had mentioned before it was a shame it was canned, because it is possibly one of GM’s best cars produced to date, and people were just now catching onto it…but it still suffered two problems
1.) Image…it is a Pontiac, and gets no press
2.) Captive import. Shipped all the way from Australia with no margin.
Well, it is going to be rebadged a Chevy Caprice, so one problem down…but the rumor in Oshawa today is that it is going to be put on the Zeta line in Canada, alongside the Camaro (as it was originally intended)…thats 2 for 2.
If the rumor is indeed fact, that means GM will own the services contract for the indefinite future ie) police cars – RWD V8s ftw
/nice move…very shrewd
(a little late, and basically re-enacting a plan put into action years ago that was canned…but nice to see they can back peddle and admit a mistake was made, and try to put it right, +1)
Jul 14th, 2009 (7:59 pm)Dan,
I have always valued your comments and your explanation only furthers and strengthens that opinion. Thank you for your valuable input here.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:00 pm)I doubt my wife would go for that.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:04 pm)Lets wait for the Volt to actually become available, before we sound the horns of success.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:06 pm)EVO,
I hate to blow your belief that most hybrid sales are sold with the environment in mind, but I don’t believe that is the case. Most people I know are interested in them for the gas mileage savings. They don’t mind buying one and paying a little more to save fuel. It seems most of us put fuel savings and not sending money to foreign countries over the environment issue.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:12 pm)I hope there will be a manual override to force the car into ICE mode. Not only will this be good for maintenance and smog tests, but it will be great for going on a long trip where you want the *last* 40 miles to be electric instead of the first 40 miles (e.g., run the engine for getting out of town [where you don't care about the noise], then silently glide through the twisty mountain roads).
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:15 pm)“the complex problem” really only has to be solved ONCE ”
Very true. But complex electro-mechanical devices tend to be difficult for the DIY to repair, along with the expense.
BEV’s are going to be the most simplistic vehicles. This reason alone makes the BEV my number one car. Others, may or may not care about maintenance, but for someone who plans to keep a vehicle for 15+ years and perform all maintenance, this is a BIG factor in my choice.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:17 pm)“Nissan makes the best cars and they are more American than GM.”
Do you have any sources to support those outlandish claims, or are you just trying to sell your opinion as fact?
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:19 pm)Go to HomeCheapo and buy your self a 5000 Watt generator, weld on a trailer ball to it, and you got yourself a $500 range extender!
Again….patent pending.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:21 pm)The issue is that most of the battery cost is for raw materials. So as demand goes up prices should likewise trend upwards rather than downwards. A non-aqueous battery like lithium-air, which eliminates metals and chemicals by using an air cathode, would cut down on the raw materials, but that’s pie-in-the-sky technology at this point.
I’d agree that John Peterson has an investment agenda, but that doesn’t make his analysis wrong. I cited his article because it referenced original sources, not because of its presentation of the argument per se. If you look at the comments you’ll find that someone from Argonne Labs agreeing with him on the likelihood of price declines but pointing out that the optimistic numbers he was deriding were from the DOE not Argonne Labs. Also, if you read this Q&A from Toyota (1997), what’s interesting is that while Toyota is saying it will use Lithium batteries it seemingly shares many of Peterson’s views about them:
http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/april/battery.html
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:26 pm)I know, but am sworn to secrecy. Sorry
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:28 pm)I agree Lyle. This site is unique in how much of the discussion takes place in the blog comments, instead of in the forums where it belongs.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:30 pm)Evo, sarcastically (I think) “You never want to show a customer that you might share their concerns or have your product be part of the solution to those concerns.”
————————–
I’m not sure where you are coming from. Nissan will of course sell EVs on the basis of environmental appeal. Nissan management will be glad to have those sales, and those sales will help Nissan’s CAFE average, I assume. It is a good thing for Nissan management to keep such legal and regulatory issues in mind.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:30 pm)“no one”
Just saying..
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:31 pm)It’s well known that PHEV applications stress the battery far more than BEV applications. The main reason for this is that the PHEV application invariably has the smaller battery pack. For example, if you have a 15 kWh and a 45 kWh pack. the larger pack will have fewer charge/discharge cycles (divide 12,000 miles by 40 and then by 120 to see the difference) PLUS the discharge rate for the cells will be three times faster (say 3C versus 1C). Since the two big factors in battery fatigue are the number of cycles and cell discharge rate you can see where this goes.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:33 pm)So long as a BEV vehicle is consistent in its range day to day on the same route with the same style driving, and if the metering of SOC is accurate, I think drivers will quickly adjust their expectations to a realistic range.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:33 pm)You always have my absolution on this one! LOL
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:34 pm)There are a lot of people who rarely drive more than 30 miles in a day. I am one of them. So for me, 100 mile nominal range is conservative.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:38 pm)Pictures of early Volt interior mockups showed a prominent button labeled “hold.” The consensus here was that this was exactly that override (and I agree, there are times when this would come in handy).
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:39 pm)I agree completely. Each of us will consider an EV car that has a rated range that is twice or more our expected daily use, because then we don’t have to think about range. Until we get that factor of 2, we probably will not seriously consider a purchase.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:40 pm)Your point about biofuel is a very good one which, unfortunately, has gotten overlooked to some extent by the unfortunate reference to that most unfortunate biofuel, ethanol.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:48 pm)Cap’n Jack, the answer to your hypothetical question is already widely known. The energy which puts the water in streams comes courtesy of Nature, without costly human intervention.
My point being, we need to be clear on this “zero emission” business. As Bernie Karr sat at his solar-powered computer writing that comment, he was expelling carbon dioxide through his nostrils (not to pick on him, particularly). “Zero emissions” makes about as much sense as “Zero tolerance” (that is to say, not much; in my opinion).
The real issue is how much can / should human caused emissions be curtailed? On the one hand, I’ve grown rather accustomed to breathing (and I happen to like beans, but that’s another story). We can’t let our ideology get in the way of economic (and scientific) sense. We do have to acknowledge that all human activity releases emissions, and that while we can do things to reduce them, “Zero emissions” as it is usually portrayed is mainly a game that is played in the halls of power. Practical, meaningful solutions come from much closer to the grass’s roots.
Jul 14th, 2009 (8:49 pm)“Japan has a pretty moderate climate”
———————
Tokyo is very similar to central NC in the summer, hot and humid. That’s why Japanese ladies in tourist posters hold all those paper umbrellas, and why traditional Japanese architecture emphasizes big porches and open air flow. Those upward curving arches create lots of shade, too. It is certainly true, though, that Japanese society in general does not think of AC as nearly so essential as do people in the USA.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:02 pm)That would have been me calling you out on this one. You’re not changing my opinion. Here’s the deal. He said that sales for June were better than “projected”. He later expanded on this by explaining that fleet sales went in the toilet (as expected) because of the bankruptcy but that consumer sales were higher than expected.
Calling him a liar based on the fact that year over year sales are down seems way over the top. What does this have to do with it? Again, unless you know what the projections were you can’t call him a liar for saying June sales beat projections.
What’s interesting here is that you’re questioning his veracity when he’s being candid and suggesting this month that sales are not beating projections. That seems backwards.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:13 pm)Don’t link to some ethonol lobby sites.
There is no commercially available technology that doesn’t use water / land and other resources that could have gone to producing food currently. Infact there is no commercial production of ethonol that is energy positive.
Ethanol is destroying the most important forest in the world – Amazon apart from causing untold suffering of the poor local people.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:15 pm)You know there are people in US who have families and multiple cars ?
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:16 pm)You can’t beat projections, if you don’t let anyone know what they are, and absolutely no one put GM’s June numbers as bad as they ended up. Those aren’t projections at all.
But perhaps you are right, maybe calling him a liar was a little over the top, I conceed and apologize for that. How about disingenuous in his representation of the state of the company? I’ll split the difference with you.
Current sales are booked when the dealer takes possession…but inventory sales are registered well in advance of receipt, customer orders sometimes over a month in advance. Fritz knew what was in the pipeline…of that there can be no doubt.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:22 pm)I would like to address a couple of things from this blog string:
1: Several people addressed the idea of window tinting to reduce the A/C load. I’m sure this works but in some states, like Illinois, it is illegal to tint your front (front door) windows or your windshield. Other windows can be tinted legally. I’m sure many other states have similar laws.
2: Optimized, electrically driven compressors have been needed on cars for 50 years but are just beginning to make an appearance in the market. The A/C compressor running off the engine is rotating at its lowest speed (when idling in traffic) when it is needed the most and should be spinning at a high rpm. Conversely, when the vehicle is at highway speeds, and the compressor is rotating at a much higher speed it is needed less because you have excellent airflow through the condenser. Car companies compensate by cycling the compressor off and on, sometimes several times a minute. This puts a strain on the belts and pulleys and mandates these components be over sized to handle the shock of being cycled on and off. An electric compressor with a large enough alternator would eliminate many of these problems. Another problem that could be eliminated is the main cause of A/C failure in cars, rubber hoses which fail from engine compartment heat, flexing, and vibration. I hope to see electric compressors on ALL cars, not just electric ones in the future. Lets face it. How many here have had expensive A/C repairs in their cars? Now ask yourself, how many A/C repairs have you had to do on your home A/C system? You know, the ELECTRIC, sealed unit next to your house?
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:23 pm)Solo,
This already exists.
The last time my Ford Ranger’s engine quit on me (actually the only time the vehicle has been totally immobilized, if you can believe it), the towtruck driver had a wrecked car on the flatbed, and he towed my truck behind the flatbed using a lift (with the front wheels in the air, and my rear wheels on the road). It worked well. He dropped me and my truck off at the Ford dealer, and then proceeded to take the car on the flatbed to wherever it was going.
The most frustrating thing is that the problem with my truck was that the fuse providing power to the ECU blew, and I failed to diagnose it after coasting in to a gas station. So I had to pay for the tow, and for the mechanic to diagnose it, along with a couple of dollars for the fuse and 30-seconds worth of mechanic-time to install it. But, hey, they took care of a recall while I was there, so it wasn’t a total waste.
But back to your point, I do agree that towtruck drivers probably won’t be complaining too much about the extra business. I just wanted to point out that towtruck drivers a skilled (though sometimes sneaky) bunch who thought of this first.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:25 pm)And how do we define cheaper? Really if the capacity increases 2 fold, and the price increases 10% is that really more expensive? Rule of thumb. Techology is always expensive in the beginning and then becomes less so.
We are not limited to the Lithium Ion technology for future batteries.There are so many new designs out there, on the cusp of discovey that will replace current technology that we can’t possibly predict with any significant degree of accuracy what it will be like 5 years from now.
I really bristle at the thought that some people think they can look into a crystal ball and tell me what is in store down the road. The only certanity is that we have no real idea!
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:33 pm)Evo, we have no idea on the range.. I could not find any info on the size of the battery pack.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:34 pm)It seems to me that police cars and taxicabs would benefit the most from a full-blown hybrid system. Both spend a lot of time idling, and being able to have A/C without the engine running would be a big benefit to the drivers. Also, I’m sure a police car would benefit from having a big electrical supply on-board for all of those electronic gadgets (with a DC-DC converter from the drive battery).
Also, it seems like the hybrid premium would pay off pretty quickly for a car that drives 8+ hours a day…
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:36 pm)Don’t forget that it’s easy to rent a car. For the few road-trips that I’ve been taken lately, renting a car would be quite practical, and would have only cost a few hundred dollars. Renting a car would have cost less than what it costs to insure my current 2nd-vehicle.
Hauling heavy objects for home and garden is another matter, though, which is why I have the 2nd vehicle.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:39 pm)The cells will cost about the same, they will just have twice or triple the capacity/performance, probably the same weight and amount of raw materials as current cells. Cost can only go down with mass production and lithium is available in vast quantities once a demand for it starts to grow.. many lithium mines sit idle due to low demand at this moment.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:41 pm)Yeah, it would have been too bad for such a great car to die. Have you confirmed this or is this Rumor+Lutz (which would BTW be pretty solid IMHO)?
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:46 pm)Good points all!
I was just going through the list of non-engine jobs that I need to do to my 178k-mile Ford Ranger the next time I feel the urge to crawl under it and/or spend money on it.
Jul 14th, 2009 (9:48 pm)it wont be hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen is too wasteful and hard to handle but high temperature SOFC fuel cells using methanol or ethanol will provide range extending electricity for our BEV.. and no need for high pressure gas tanks or exotic precious metals in the fuel cell or expensive hydrogen infrastructure.
These SOFC fuel cells will probably be used in long range large trucks and airplanes.. the rest of us will just use more batteries to get longer range. The slow characteristics of the SOFC will not matter when used as a range extender.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:04 pm)They just don’t get it…range anxiety is REAL.
I’m not going to buy a car that I can never drive more than 50 miles from my house. Period. End of story.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:07 pm)The G8 is definitely going to continue (in spirit). As it stands officially it will be rebadged as a Chevy, and imported from Australia. The thinking is it will be renamed the Caprice (of course anything can change between now and model year 2011).
The buzz in my neck of the woods here (GM Canada HQ) of late is that the Zeta RWD Chev is back online for Oshawa, (as was originally intended), and is going to be tooled up after they get the Camaro orders up to speed (and the Camaro convertible out).
Makes a lot of sense, if they are going to continue/relaunch it, Ontario is the place to do it over Australia as a captive import.
The Zeta line is already in place and HUGELY under-utilized, and just sitting there available if need be…I know the Camaro is going gangbusters right now, but that is too be expected whenever a new pony car from GM is launched.
The Camaro was only intended to be a small fraction of the capacity, up to 100,000 units. The plant is designed to handle up to 500,000…which is a insane number, especially taking into account this auto environment, and the fact GM probably is only going to sell about 900,000 cars total this year if they are lucky.
/it is still just rumor, but it is getting traction/non-denials from the right people…and it just makes sense (as well as being Lutz’s ‘baby’)
…take it for whatever it is worth
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:08 pm)I used to go a little ways out to sea in a fairly small vessel. Serious Range Anxiety. You didn’t want to return with much less than 1/2 tank. Although the range anxiety of a BEV, staying on land as it does, can’t compare, I imagine most won’t feel too comfortable running much more than 2/3 of their perceived real range.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:25 pm)The other thing people forget is that even if magically a 100kW battery appears that cost nothing you couldn’t charge it at home in less than a week. You would need a dramatically enhanced grid with charging stations and cables the size of your arm to charge it quicker. The pure BEV is a non-starter for many reasons.
+1
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:33 pm)HOT DAMN, finally an OEM Making a full on EV.
With the exception of a few (less then 6) times a year when i drive over 100 miles in a day.
As cheap as small econoboxes are I can keep one spare in the back of the garage for my half dozen longer trips.
Hope they give it an affordable price. I can plug in at each end of almost all my trips, and even have a solar inverter for 110 if things ever got desolate.
Obviously not the car to drive into the desert, but a perfect everyday drive around car.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:52 pm)Zeta would make a great underpinning for a new full size Cadillac, I think it was originally planned to be that way then they changed it to I think to a stretched Sigma platform.
Jul 14th, 2009 (10:58 pm)This is a place where the BAS+ would actually make sense as standard equipment.
Or maybe even BAS++ upsize the electric motor, upsize the battery and add stronger regen.
This would allow to for things like electric A/C and if designed properly could do a better job of providing power the the accessory load found on service vehicles.
And one thing GM could do where feasible is use the same cells that are going into the volt pack. The higher volume they can get those cells to the quicker they can get to a cheaper battery.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:19 pm)Sigh…Thanks for that
ne Statik.
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:24 pm)Didn’t the pure in Lyle’s post refer to electric propulsion and battery storage as opposed to any kind of hybrid functions?
Jul 14th, 2009 (11:51 pm)I think this comment structure has just fallen apart! Posters know that they have to reply to the first reply comment to the first comment or forget about being read. Did you all see the comment count (430+ when I posted this!)? Damn!
Great job Lyle, this site is getting more popular every day. As we get closer to launch it’s going to get crazy. Maybe GM will hook you up to a cloud and some serious server hp.
+1
Jul 15th, 2009 (12:11 am)Here in WA State, we have one of the cheapest electricity rates in the US (like 6.5c/kW). I can’t find the source of that information, as it was like a year ago.
I would like a pure EV or 100mi range.
Jul 15th, 2009 (1:35 am)There is a reason for the minimal airflow taken through the slots in the Volt . COOLING, if you take away the kinetic energy in this minimal airflow, to use in a wind turbine, more air will have to be pulled to replace the air flow lost that was intended for cooling. Leads to the same issues stated above. The propulsion system makes use of electrical fields very efficiently.
Any electrical field used to generate power including the generator or wheel mounted generators for that matter, will encounter mechanical resistance which is only then converted into usable current. That is why gasoline E85 or regen are used to generate range extending power, avoiding resistance that steals energy parasitically from battery power for propulsion. And then add this onto the issues stated in the comment above.
From an automotive standpoint wheel mounted generators will add unsprung weight to attempt a task better served by the Volts gas powered generator. From a complex expensive solution that reduces handling, increases costs, and due to conversion losses actually steals power from the propulsion system, you gain less than nothing. The second law of thermodynamics is quite relentless on this point, tenacious even!
Jul 15th, 2009 (1:50 am)A wire is a wire, a cable is a cable and a transmission line… well I don’t think gigawatts care what they fly on, hehe.
In my school you studied agricultural economics or no economics at all, even so, they paradoxically covered all areas of economics. Go figure.
Jul 15th, 2009 (2:30 am)I know these arguments are meant to be against pure electric vehicles and for the Volt, but in the end they are often arguments against the Volt as well.
If you routinely drive over 100 miles then the Volt doesn’t make much sense for you… especially if you follow your own logic that the Volt range will likely be under 30 miles.
You can’t afford a second car yet you are willing to pay a premium of the cost of a second car ($~15,000) to buy a Volt over a hybrid.
40 miles was a brilliant choice for GM as it satisfies ~78% of commuters needs, but somehow 100 miles is insufficient.
From what you have described the vehicle that really makes sense for you is a hybrid. Better-than-volt fuel economy for your ICE driving and only just over 1/2 a gallon used for the 30 miles that the Volt would be on electricity. Taking into account the better fuel economy of the hybrid on the ICE, it would probably be near a wash. No range anxiety, no need to plug it in, no need for government subsidies, less expensive battery, proven technology, available, and ~$15,000 less expensive.
Jul 15th, 2009 (2:52 am)Gee, does that mean industrial firms like auto makers for instance, will have to stop production until there is a new dramatically enhanced grid and someone invents cables the size of my arm?
Wow, wow, wow no wonder we can’t manufacture anything in America, we’re severely lacking in cables the size of my arm. I’m sure glad I didn’t actually waste any time trying to research that dead end issue.
Jul 15th, 2009 (2:56 am)Whoo Hooo, # 442
I used to read every comment on each post – - – -Now I’m not so sure!!!
Jul 15th, 2009 (4:32 am)The other thing people forget is that even if magically a 100kW battery appears that cost nothing you couldn’t charge it at home in less than a week.
______________________________________
Lets conservatively stay on the high side and say the Volt will average 320 watt-hours electricity use per mile. An 8 kWh battery charge will get me about 25 miles at that rate.
That rate will get me about 312 miles with a 100 kWh pack! If I plugged in each night after going 200 miles during the day (which is 73,000 miles a year!) I would have to replace 64 kWh leaving me about 112 miles of range, if horror of horrors no quick charging, or any charging for that matter, (in the event of a blackout?) is available in my humble home on an odd night. Gosh I would be sooooo disapointed.
That 64 kWh by the way will require 4.5 hours with a 240 volt 70 amp outlet. And 36 kWh more to go if I want to drive 300 miles a day ( 109,500 miles per year)
Take out the weight of the range extender and my mileage may even go up. Perhaps a moot point because the challenge was a free 100 kWh battery not a light weight one, to be fair.
Drop down to an easily manageable 260 watt-hours per mile and my mileage goes up while the kWh I have to replace each night will go down correspondingly, leaving me with a full battery (384 miles range) each morning.
Please check my math, it may not be complete! BEVs may not be practical but at least I’m using facts which can be debated instead of tossing out value judgements and applying them randomly to every NA driver.
Jul 15th, 2009 (4:37 am)Wheel generator weight is not a problem. Use magnetic repulsion to in effect decrease the dead weight. We may as well give up on a solar roof as well. Too much weight to ever be compensated for by power gain. Humm?
http://garfwod.250free.com/bloodsucker.wav
=D~
Jul 15th, 2009 (5:32 am)It would make for a great episode of dirty jobs thought! Thanks Engineer for the correction.
Jul 15th, 2009 (5:48 am)None of what you say above is true.
Our new secretary of energy knows the current facts. Dr. Chu is a big supporter of ethanol.
+1
Jul 15th, 2009 (6:01 am)There is no “one answer” to the problem of creating energy in an eco-friendly way. Ethanol and bio-diesel will be required to solve this, but they can’t solve it alone. We will need a combination of solutions.
It’s like a puzzle. Each piece has its place. If you are missing a piece, the puzzle is incomplete.
As for getting people to conserve, the only realistic way to do that is to increase the price of using energy. Most people will never think of energy as precious if it continues to be cheap.
Jul 15th, 2009 (6:14 am)I see ethanol and bio-diesel as part of the permanent solution. Liquid fuels have the highest energy density by far. No battery or ultra-cap even comes close. Long distance and heavy duty transport by air, land, and sea will continue to require liquid fuels. This is physics. The future won’t change it.
Algae will be used to make bio-diesel and jet fuel. There is huge potential in algae.
Ethanol will be made from a combination of crop residue (farm waste), municipal waste, forest/mill waste, and energy crops from idle farmland and other land that is not suitable for food crops. Using these sources, up to 35% of our current gasoline consumption can be replaced by ethanol, all without any affect on our food supply.
The technology to make cellulosic ethanol using gasification is here now. The only issue is volatility in gas prices. In order to make a profit, gas prices have to stay around $2.50 or more. Most people won’t invest to scale up this existing technology without some kind of assurance on minimum gas prices. This is why I propose minimum floor tax on gas or oil.
+1
Jul 15th, 2009 (6:28 am)Talk about a long winded response…..
I did not put down BEV’s.
All I really said was that in my life, the exceptions to the rule happen far too frequently to be locked into a vehicle with that has limitations. And at this time, the E-REV design does not have those limitations.
When battery design, size, and cost changes, so will my attitude. Just like when I did not buy the first cell phone that you had to carry around that was the size of a lunchbox……
And if a 10 minute charge is usually enough to get you home, then you must usually not be too far away.
Jul 15th, 2009 (7:21 am)Great find, CaptJack.
“85% of drivers travel less than 35 miles each way for work. The 100-mile range package would suffice for all this driving with plenty of global green miles to spare. The MSRP is $18,000.
10% of drivers travel up to 50 miles each way for work. The 160-mile range package would suffice for all this driving with plenty of global green miles to spare. The MSRP is $25,000.
5% of drivers want to go for days without recharging up to 250 miles. Although this has never been the design intention of electric cars, if you want to drive this far, we have a package for $30,000.”
Wow! Take that, Tesla.
Jul 15th, 2009 (8:04 am)Thanks DonC. I read through about 1/2 of that. I understand the goal of LCF, which is good for reducing the carbon footprint overall, but not sure how this affects individual cars. A BEV will not use any LCF’s. Can you make a car that will ONLY run on Biofuels, or LCF’s? If so, will states allow your car to emit more CO2 out of the tailpipe since the fuel being burned is an LCF? What about the Volt? When it is in range-extender mode, will it be allowed to emit more pollutants because it already drove 40 miles on electric?
Jul 15th, 2009 (8:09 am)The cost of installing a gazillion charging stations precludes the private sector from making that investment alone and without the backing of the government. It has to be backed financially by the government of your city, county or state and given tax breaks to help the fledgling industry stay afloat until it reaches profitability.
There cannot be a “chicken first” or “egg first” mentality, however. In this case both the infrastructure and electric vehicle supply must be ramped up simultaneously. With careful planning, both corporate and governmental, this can be achieved. Portland, San Francisco and the State of Hawaii are all on board the Project Better Place charging station effort. With a careful balance of EV manufacturers committing to increase the supply of EVs in those PBP areas equal to the progress in installing charging infrastructure the effort can become profitable in as short a time as possible.
+1
Jul 15th, 2009 (8:58 am)I heard no such implication, since long tailpipe addresses primary power sources. It’s still a fallacy, BEVs still create less pollution than full gassers no matter what you use for energy, are as clean as you choose and solar still works.
Jul 15th, 2009 (9:08 am)Huh? What aggregate? Where did that come from?
I’m talking about the my personal consumer price per kWh that’s listed right on my monthly power bill. I’m looking at it again, Yep, what I said is true. I don’t live in Delaware to Colorado. I can’t, won’t and don’t speak for other folks experience.
Yes, my actual power is provided by wind power. How many times do I have to say this for people to get it. I can see the wind farms, the transmission lines and the substations. Wind to my vehicle. It’s real. No, my carbon footprint is not the same as anyone else on my “power grid”, whatever that it.
What is it with wind haters on this site? It must be the non-renewable resource lobby frothing at the mouth at the fact that we can indeed use less and be more efficient.
Jul 15th, 2009 (9:12 am)Yes of course, and range anxiety is a much bigger concern than range.
OK that means you win. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics loses, next topic please!
Jul 15th, 2009 (9:20 am)My voice isn’t raised and disagreeing with FUD and misinformation isn’t being combative, merely offering a dialogue to counter the fallacy of sweeping generalizations. But nice try with your spin cycle. Certainly this thread is way off topic now.
My only agenda is to report my actual experience using a BEV as my daily commuter, which unsurprisingly, differs somewhat from Lyle’s.
That includes using wind power in my 40 mile AER electric motorycle which works great for my 26 mile daily commute.
Peace in.
Jul 15th, 2009 (9:34 am)Huh? I agreed with Gary.
I just said “millions of successful full hybrid sales have nothing at all or little to do with caring about the environment.” How you got that I have a belief “that most hybrid sales are sold with the environment in mind” out of that, I’ll never know, as I said exactly the opposite of that.
In case you haven’t figured it out, I’m a cynic on the environment (less so on the link between increased pollution and increased health costs, a major back breaker to our economy). That hasn’t stopped me from using a BEV, wind power and solar. Maybe I do it for other reasons.
Jul 15th, 2009 (9:40 am)To all those that I’ve offended on this site, I apologize. If nothing else, I’ve shown that BEV users can be just as much a$$h-les as full gasser users.
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:04 am)You are on the right track . I think until the range is available from batteries that once the Pure Electric Vehicles are introduced people will realize their limitations and shortcomings.
I see a little 250cc gen-set putting out 220 volts and enough amps to just about meeting the needed power to maintain a highway speed of 70 but capable of maintaining 60 . It would be liquid cooled to supply heat in the winter and power for the a/c in the summer with maybe a five gallon fuel tank for gas .
In years to come we wont be permitted to burn any kind of fuel in cities , just on highways .
I discussed this with Magna many years ago .
It is not a new idea , but we wont see it for some time either .
The cars that this would go into would be called electric cars , no mention of range extension either . A RF signal would shut off the gen-set when you drove past a signal point as you left the freeway or entered the downtown area .
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:06 am)Stas, you should contact Shai Agassi to see if he’ll put a Project Better Place battery replacement station in your area, then buy an EV that is designed to work with it. No need to charge overnight or ever, just pull in to get a battery swapout and keep on drivin’ to go see all your friends.
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:07 am)very poetic.. I bet many of these people complaining about 100 mile range exceed that range only a couple of times a year.. yet they want to load their BEV with several hundred pounds of extra batteries just for those occasions. Once 300 mile range BEV appear on the market then they will start harping that they still need more, in case they forget to plug-in for several weeks.
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:14 am)EVO – Very enlightening thank you.
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:29 am)I still have a hard time believing that *all* your power is from wind power. By “grid” I meant the electrical infrastructure that 99% of people use; by “private grid” I meant the same thing, but it’s used exclusively for wind power customers… it doesn’t tie into the power grid that’s used to create electricity from other sources.
This “subscription” plan you talk about to get 100% of your power through wind power sounds like the “plan” you can buy into when buying a plane ticket where you can pay extra money to make your flight so-salled carbon neutral.
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:34 am)“Based on this data, a 2 kilowatt constant extra electrical demand when stuck in traffic may cut as much as 25 percent of your range. But up North where heat loading is not as drastic, a one ton compressor would be fine”
Per your data a 1 ton system consumes 1250wh.. average BEV consumes 250wh per mile traveled, probably at 65mph.. to travel 100 miles would require a 25kwh plus 1.9kwh to run the AC for 1.5 hours… derate by 20% for the end-of-life capacity and you end up needing a battery pack of 32kwh for a realistic 100 mile range. The AC consumed less than 8% of the range capacity. If you got stuck in the Mother of All Traffic Jams, the battery could drive the AC for nearly 17 hours before it was dead.
People worry too much about the AC load on a BEV.
BTW.. I think 1 ton of AC average in a small car and you will end up with icicles.
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:36 am)Without a mass production environment there is no economic incentive to greatly reduce costs. When you are making a niche product it is expected that it will cost a lot.
You claim that there has been a century of research on battery technology. That may be true but none of it was focused toward bringing costs down while simultaneously greatly increasing battery capacity and density as well as reducing weight and increasing safety to make a perfected battery for electric vehicles.
Nissan and their partners will finally start the process of high volume production and will achieve great economies of scale.
IMHO: I say it’s about time. After a century of “researching” we finally have a company intelligent enough to kick it into high gear and make this market theirs.
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:38 am)Jeff, I think he was teasing you
The answer of course is to always go downhill..
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:51 am)“The whole game is return on investment”
Ok. I’ll give you that. But you failed to explain just how GM would lose any ROI if a person bought a Volt and then later, after sufficient progress in batteries, removed the ICE and its attendant poisons and corrosive/explosive chemicals to replace it with more batteries. Also unexplained is how leaving a gasser engine in place would net GM a penny of ROI.
Whatever ROI NGMCO will get from the Volt happens when the vehicle is sold to a customer or fleet.
Actually, if GM put out a Volt Battery Upgrade Package they would in fact get a ROI on that sale as well. So it would be in NGMCOs best interest financially to do just that. If GM does not then some aftermarket will come out with one, you can take that to the bank.
Jul 15th, 2009 (10:56 am)Some people focus on the hood, some focus on the undercarriage. I don’t think 15 minutes is enough time to fully appreciate the handiwork on display.
Jul 15th, 2009 (11:08 am)Chevron/Texaco bought the rights to the NiMH batteries used in the EV-1 and Toyota RAV-4 EV. Then they sat on it for 30 years to make sure that it could never be used to compete with their poison fuel.
Worst case scenario: big oil buys up all the tech for algae and sits on that as well.
Best case scenario: we end up paying all our dollars to Big Algae instead of Big Oil.
No Thanks!
Sign me up for an all electric vehicle and I’ll use the money I save NOT buying their overpriced poison fuel to save up for a solar power and wind power system for my house.
Jul 15th, 2009 (11:16 am)You are confusing BEV with NEV. NEV is a glorified golf cart. They cost anywhere from $12k to $20k and can’t go faster than 25 miles per hour. What a waste IMO but they may be right for a tiny fraction of people.
BEVs, however, can drive on any street, road, highway, freeway or expressway that your ICE can. With 100 mile range as Nissan is working towards they fulfill all the needs of 98% of Americans.
Why don’t you trade your ICE vehicle in for a pogo stick?
Jul 15th, 2009 (11:23 am)Way to go Bernie! Thanks for sharing your story with us here. Very inspiring to say the least.
Jul 15th, 2009 (11:56 am)Wrong. The forums are moderated. The blog comment area is not.
If you want more free exchange of ideas in the forums then delete the moderator(s). I’ve posted several times to the forums but none of my posts ever show up.
My posts were NOT anti-union. NOT anti-American and NOT anti-working class.
Lyle, you have a big problem with your forums and we have been boycotting them for good reason.
Jul 15th, 2009 (11:59 am)The picture is of the mule. Would you knock the Volt’s styling because you don’t happen to like the Malibu Mule?
The Nissan EV will be a sedan with four doors. They may also bring out an SUV/crossover or other type vehicle as well.
I do wish that Nissan would allow an “accidental” leak of some real photos. Maybe as we get closer to production/vehicle delivery.
Jul 15th, 2009 (12:03 pm)Home Depot rents out pickup trucks in my area. Isn’t that available nationwide? I think it’s like $20 or something close to it.
Jul 15th, 2009 (12:30 pm)Jeffery,
That’s funny that you assume I drive to fast and take off quickly. I don’t I am a very average driver maybe even on the slow side i Don’t drive over 65. You know what they say when you Ass u me.
The guy with the Toy P I was talking about is far far slower then average 10 to 12 cars should make the light but with him only 2 or 3 will. Far more gas is wasted by the cars left setting at the light then he is saving. There are 3 lights close togeather so everyone gets stoped at least at one.
As for getting on the Xway cars that can’t get up to 60 mph by the time they are on are a danger to all of us. They should not be allowed on the Xway.
Jul 15th, 2009 (12:37 pm)Is a ‘stupid moron’ less intelligent than just a regular moron? If so this implies that there are also ‘smart morons’ as well.
Jul 15th, 2009 (1:52 pm)60 to 75 miles manufacturer claim or 42 to 52 miles if Lyle drives it, apparently. I agree that there are as many questions as answers, but one rental car agency alreday has one in service, so it must fit some folks needs.
Jul 15th, 2009 (2:12 pm)@ Jim I
Sorry, my admittedly windy reply was to MuddyRoverBob.
I understand your caution, as humans seem to be very conservative animals that don’t like change and waiting to jump on the bandwagon ’til the end usually guarantees a cheaper, better product (consider consumer electronics). I did think that this site was primarily for intended early adopters.
I’m merely reporting that the concerns you voice do not exist for me as an actual BEV user.
My commute is 26 miles, which I’ve said on this site many, many times. To save lots of back and forth over the time/capacity/miles I claim, my trip back home is completely downhill, so I have an excuse for being late to work (I had to slow down to extend my range ’cause I’m going to the spa for lunch) but can always, always get home easily. Yes, I set up my living situation thoughtfully.
Thank you very much for not taking umbrage at my communication ways.
Jul 15th, 2009 (2:23 pm)Where I’m coming from:
Just imagine the boosted sales if Nissan sold EVs on the basis of every consumer appeal, not just environmental. Let’s not chop off sales because of our preconceived notion about what consumers may find attractive about electric drive. For me, it’s mostly about the intrinsic superior performance and luxury, with maximum torque at 0 rpm and up to about half the maximum speed, and instant, seamless and quiet acceleration at all times. I’m willing to pay extra for those qualities in my vehicles. It’s not my fault if electric drive is accidentally better for the planet at the same time that it delivers superior performance and luxury qualities.
Keep in mind that my current BEV is a commercial high performance highway capable off road flattrack enduro-trails-style motorcycle that’ll smoke supercars off the line.
Jul 15th, 2009 (2:28 pm)Highway capable is different from highway friendly.
The fact is that high speed highways will never be friendly for energy efficiency, whether we are talking full gassers or BEVs.
Jul 15th, 2009 (2:41 pm)Yay. More garages built with thoughtful siting and cheap geothermal heating/cooling so that BEVs are prewarmed in the winter and shaded and precooled in the summer. The construction industry booms and the world economy is saved.
Well done, MuddyRoverBob.
Yes, I’m serious.
Jul 15th, 2009 (3:59 pm)You never would have made the transition from a horse to a gas car with that approach. I thought this site was directed to early adopters. BTW, there are still around 9 million horses in the US, so you’re not alone.
+1
Jul 15th, 2009 (4:34 pm)I also have said many times that it is great that you have found your solution.
That solution will not work for me for various reasons not least of which being I think motorcycles are deathtraps particularly in my city where the average driver shouldn’t be licenced.
My point is that most people don’t have the time to stop at a cafe’ on the way home from work. I sometimes wish my life were different but currently it is not. So again I call you the winner.
Personally I still wouldn’t consider buying a battery only vehicle of any sort with current technology.
Your situation and lifestyle allow you this opportunity congratulations.
+1
Jul 15th, 2009 (4:39 pm)Likewise in British Columbia, where about 90% of the electricity is renewable hydro-electric. I’m just looking forward to when “net metering” is enabled so that after I install PV (solar) panels on my roof, I can sell surplus electricity by day and recharge my car by night …
Jul 15th, 2009 (4:45 pm)Unless of course your municipality doesn’t allow geothermal wells. There are many working on that one though.
In any case My Volt will get a nice insulated although not currently heated garage to live in.
That boom could be serviced by voltec pickup trucks.
I’m serious too.
Jul 15th, 2009 (4:46 pm)OK, I stand corrected.
Jul 15th, 2009 (6:12 pm)MuddyRoverRob
I’m not trying to talk you into riding a high performance (electric, of course) motorcycle around. Really. I’m just noting that it works great for me (motorcycles do account for about 10% of all new vehicle sales these days).
I don’t need to stop at a cafe to recharge, but can if I want to and can do work there. I find that having a BEV gives me more options than a full gasser, but maybe that’s just me.
I understand that you are waiting for something larger, more enclosed, more common and further developed than what I use. I congratulate you, as you will make electric drive become truly maintream.
I made my BEV choice because it was the best vehicle, of any kind, that met my current situation, which I freely admit is not everyone’s. My past BEV use makes things like the Volt available to everyone sooner than otherwise, as I pushed the market on the consumer demand side and field tested the technology in more extreme conditions than any of you will ever experience in your car. I’ll keep on the front end of the curve as long as I can afford to (pretty easy at cheap motorcycle prices) and you bring up the rear with your family?
To all who become electric drive adopters or any kind soon, welcome to the club. To others, we’ll see you when you get here and welcome you then.
Last to Jim I:
I don’t need that 10 minutes, either. I can and have swapped out my power pack for a fresh one in seconds, way faster than anyone refueling, including at NASCAR races. What I say only applies to my own situation, of course. I would never presume to try to tell people what I think works and doesn’t work for them. By all means, stick with your obsolete technology, weak performing full gasser or get the upcoming, brilliant Volt if that’s what you want.
Jul 15th, 2009 (6:32 pm)I stand corrected.
-1
Jul 15th, 2009 (7:19 pm)Both methanol and ethanol can be reformed to hydrogen
and in the future that may be the way to go because
hydrogen fuel cells are clean whereas direct ethanol and
direct methanol fuel cells probably aren’t. Reforming
methanol and ethanol will release CO2, but at least the
CO2 released will be CO2 that would be in the
atmosphere anyways.
An important note about ethanol, it is hard to handle
because it is hydrophillic. Ethanol, like Ammonia, draws
water. Anyhydrous ammonia is dangerous because of
it’s water drawing tendency. The technology to send
hydrogen through a pipeline exists but I doubt that
there is adequate tech to send methanol or ethanol
through a pipeline instead.
I keep hearing this energy efficiency argument that BEVs
are the answer because they are so efficient. First off,
charging a battery is not 100% efficient. I know that even
though I’m not an EE because certainly some energy gets
lost in the form of heat due to the resistance of the battery.
Second off, if using hydrogen is so inefficient, why can
certain bacteria under the right conditions be made to
produce it? Yes, algae can produce hydrogen.
As far as concerns about the high cost of hydrogen tanks,
they don’t cost so much that the total price of the car will
exceed $30k new according to Daimler. The Volt
gas/electric hybrid cannot be sold for $30k because the
battery alone is $15k to make. People who think fuel cell
cars will cost more than BEVs are grossly mistaken.
The energy efficiency of refining crude oil which is shipped
all over the world is terribly low. There will be tremendous
energy savings in a hydrogen economy because a lot of
long distance transport will be eliminated.
People listen, you aren’t giving hydrogen a fair look and
you aren’t fully educated. Get educated and give it a fair
look. Wake up, even GM can build an affordable fuel cell
car now or in the not too distant future. All of the major
automakers are saying that 2015 is the year to
commercialize fuel cell vehicles and that’s with the
expensive high pressure hydrogen tanks.
Let’s say that Congress demands 44 miles per gallon
fuel efficiency period. That won’t help much. The amount
of imported OIL will still rise. Taking OIL completely out of
transportation is the only way to significantly curb OIL
imports. If BEVs were the answer, I’d advocate for them
myself.
Jul 15th, 2009 (9:27 pm)We can’t let our ideology get in the way of economic (and scientific) sense.
____________________
Sorry to break it to you, but that’s an ideology too. And a dogmatic one if we’re not careful.
Jul 15th, 2009 (9:36 pm)My problem is I always seem to be going up hill. Both going and returning.
Jul 16th, 2009 (1:05 am)I don’t think he’s kidding though.
Jul 16th, 2009 (3:14 am)The Volt city range goes up to about 45 miles without RE components or trailer attatched and not even increasing the SOC window. If the trailer has home emergency generator features too, I’ld be willing to pay a little more for a Volt BEV+ trailer.
Jul 16th, 2009 (3:37 am)“pure BEVs are more expensive than EREV”
Huh, sez who? Remove $5-10K RE components from Volt and you have a BEV with more AER.
Jul 16th, 2009 (4:27 am)There are days when you leave your care for regular maintanance. During those days your range is 0. And this happens twice per year. I think that fast charging facilities will be in place as soon as EV reach 1% of car fleet.
Jul 16th, 2009 (11:03 am)Sorry, EVO. I guess I just read your comment wrong. Please accept my apologies.
+3
Jul 16th, 2009 (12:13 pm)49% of U.S. electric comes from coal
15% in California
17% in Washington state
California and Washington state have some of the highest concentrations of hybrid vehicles owned so it stands to reason those states will have high rates of EV ownership early on.
EVs are 75% efficient. ICEs (Internal Combustion Engines) are only 20% efficient.
Bottomline: EVs will be much, much cleaner than ICEs in the early years, and even as drivers in coal centric states buy EVs the air will still be cleaner.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm_sum.html
http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/total_system_power.html
http://www.cted.wa.gov/site/539/default.aspx
http://www.polk.com/TL/PV_200903_Issue007_HybridSector.pdf
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/evtech.shtml
Jul 17th, 2009 (12:47 am)Nissan is rehashing the EV1 with it’s “100 mile.” Sure it may hold 5 people vs. two for the EV1 but as Lyle has shown us, a claim of a 100 mile range holds as much water as the EPA mileage sticker on your new car!
All this talk about 90% of people drive 100 miles or less and 70% of people drive 40 miles or less is to a degree irrelevant when it comes to making a purchasing decision. To me a can gets 20 miles per gallon. (I don’t know what you drive but 20 is my number for what I buy and drive) So 100 mile range is 5 gallons of gas. My gas tank holds 20 gallons (yours may vary). Therefore, 5 gallons is a quarter tank of gas. Would I buy a gas car with a gas tank that only holds a quarter tank compared to what is available? OF COURSE NOT! I WOULD NEVER BUY SUCH A CAR AND NEITHER WOULD YOU!
Get what I’m saying? This is a “comfort level” decision. It has nothing to do with reason or averages or market studies. It’s what my gut says what works for me. A quarter tank of gas doesn’t work AND NEVER WILL. THAT’S what killed the EV1. Yes, good ol’ range anxiety! Not the evil corporate GM or the oil company or CARB. All the studies can be 100 percent correct but I will never buy a car that holds a quarter tank of “gas.” AND NEITHER WOULD YOU. (Be honest!)
SO that is why I WILL buy a Volt and not a Nissan 1st gen EV. BUT when the day comes I can drive 200 miles at 70mph and get a quick charge of 80 miles in 5 minutes in a pure EV that has 4 doors can carry at least 4 adults and not cost more than $35,000 (BEFORE rebates, etc.) THEN I WOULD buy a pure electric vehicle.
Go Volt!
Jul 17th, 2009 (12:45 pm)My sentiments exactly, I DO wonder why GM is under govt control now…. and why GM specifically? my optimism wishes it would be to lead the industry into ‘green energy.’ I fear however that this is not the case…. anyway yes it’s all very interesting and I know my name is on some list somewhere so I better shut up before I get too ahead of myself and join you in some unmarked grave
Jul 17th, 2009 (12:46 pm)Thanks, I kind of like to provoke crazy people sometimes
Does that make me crazy? Definitely makes for some interesting reading!
Jul 19th, 2009 (6:10 pm)What is happening with eestor’s ultracapacitor concept? If this product becomes a reality either by eestor or someone else, a lot changes in the EV World.
Jul 20th, 2009 (12:29 pm)Just as a update to a older thread, apparently it is worth nothing. Bob back peddled, and said the G8 (and any other future sister cars) are dead.
-1 Bob
Jul 23rd, 2009 (5:17 am)What worries me a lot is this “average” human behaviour: < 100miles per day, 2 cars.
First of all, let me say that I’m 100% with the author regarding a more sustainable way of life and cutting down the luxuries we have.
Yet, being a working person who does lots of trips, a 100mile (164km) daily quota is very often NOT sufficient for my needs. And at that time I would certainly not like to be in the middle of nowhere with an empty battery and nowhere to charge it. So, at least some hydrogen alternative would be more than welcome.
Now, the author makes another BAD assumption… that the whole world is the States, where everybody (apparently) has 2 or more cars, one for daily stuff and one for play/recreation. In my country and many other, this is not the case. The one car we have has to be good for all things. So, again, another no-no from me.
Oct 22nd, 2009 (1:02 pm)Don, biofuels is a dead end road that we should not go down. Still polutes and more importantly drives up food prices. It is a limited resource and as I said will compete with food production resources. EV is the only solution for this country. I dream of the day when most primary vehicles are EV in this country. I just watched a show on life in the United Arab Emirates and how they don’t have income tax, have free healthcare, free electric and water. Well my friends how can that be? Well we pay for that with the billions we send daily for oil. Our young die in wars fighting for the stuff, we spend billions of our tax dollars to insure we have steady access to the stuff. So much pollution is created from it every day. Battery technology is here and electrical capacitor technology is close enough for us to move to EV.
Terrorism is funded by oil money. The middle east has so much of our money they don’t know what to do with it. Lets pull the plug on there pipeline of money and get them worried about feeding themselves so they can stop terrorizing us.
Please research this and vote accordingly. We need everyone on this as oil money lobbyists’ will fight this tooth and nail.