AND 
GM Planning Dedicated High Efficiency Hybrid Sedan
Frankly, GM’s experiment in mild hybrid sedans didn’t go so well. The automaker had produced a mild hybrid version of the popular Chevrolet Malibu, but sales volumes were low and the program has been discontinued.
Chevrolet manger Ed Peper admits GM learned its lesson.
“One of the issues with the Malibu hybrid has been that the four cylinder 6 speed transmission Malibu gets 33 MPG on the highway,” he said. ” It has the best fuel economy of any mid-size car out there for a normal gas engine, so it makes it that much tougher to make a hybrid that gets significant better gas mileage than that.”
The 2009 4-cylinder Malibu has an EPA rating of 22 MPG city | 33 MPG hwy. The 2009 Malibu hybrid gets 26 MPG city | 34 MPG highway. It uses GM’s first generation mild belt-alternator-started hybrid system.
“Consumers are not going to pay for it unless they can get significant better fuel economy,” he said.
Peper disclosed to GM-Volt.com that GM is now working to develop an extremely fuel efficient dedicated hybrid besides the Volt.
“What we are trying to work towards is ‘Yes,’ we will have other hybrid vehicles (besides the Volt) but we are trying to work towards a dedicated hybrid,” he said. “We think that’s probably a better way for us to go longer term.”
“I think when we bring out a hybrid, and I think its very important, we’ve got to make sure it has significantly better fuel economy than a non-hybrid,” said Peper.
July 13th, 2009 at 6:35 am
NGMCO is getting a fresh start. I agree, the buyer paying $4000-$5000 more for a plus 5 mpg hybrid system doesn’t add up. And the feather footing needed to attain the advertised mileage isn’t a lot of fun either.
Best of luck with the new style hybrid cars. I believe NGMCO will find the EREV is what the public will buy.
=D~
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:36 am
Halleluja, some sense has been beaten into GM AT LAST.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:38 am
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:41 am
Isn’t it quite obvious that when you slap “hybrid” and “fuel efficient” labels onto a car, people will naturally start comparing it with the likes of a Prius. Because 33mpg is not 50mpg (or what ever the Prius gets), the damage is almost immediate. the hybrid Malibu does not live up to peoples expectations of what a hybrid can actually do, so its really just resting on the fact its a more expensive version of the standard Malabu (4 to 5k more expensive) with marginal gains… if you want a hybrid to save of fuel, go get a prius…
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:43 am
Sounds like a Volt without the plug.
As for the Malibu Hybrid, GM failed to communicate that it had the fuel economy of the 4 cylinder and the performance of the 6 cylinder – THAT is what people would have paid for.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:49 am
I am happy to see GM moving in this direction. I want a Volt for my long range commuter. My drive is 41.5 miles one way for work and I shouldn’t have a problem getting a charge at work. My Civic Hybrid has about 105,000 miles on it right now, so 2.5 years from now, I should be at the 150,000 mile mark. Perfect time to get the Volt!
Like I said, I’m happy that GM is looking for Hybrids that are going to deliver superior fuel usage, but I do not want them to lose there V8 engine performance. I really want a Z28 Convertible to go along with my Volt. I think GM can do both and do both with success.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:57 am
I see GM focusing on 4 levels of fuel efficiency.
For those with a limited budget, pay ~$2000 for a BAS+ system. For a small car like the Cruze, it will probably yield another 6 mpg in the city, and maybe 2 highway.
Next level will probably be a 2-mode or similar. This will still be for large cars, and will probably be applied to the Malibu, LaCrosse, and SUV’s. A Malibu with this system (4 cyl) could get numbers close to 40/40. Add $5 to 10K.
The third level is the 2nd level with plug-in capability. With up to 20 miles AER, this could effectively double EPA numbers. So a small SUV (like the former Saturn Vue) might get 70 mpg!
For the ultimate, there will be Voltec technology.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:57 am
Better late than never I guess. Pretty much all I got to say about that.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:58 am
@Xiaowei1 #4
That’s mostly what I’ve always thought. From an engineering perspective the Malibu Hybrid was successful but from a marketing and perception stand point it had fail all over it. Personally I don’t think it should of been branded ‘Hybrid’. They probably would have been better off creating some other ‘eco’ type name for it.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:02 am
MIxed emotions:
1. It’s an interesting development, coming on the heels of yestereday’s discussion.
2. If it in some way — which we may never know — hurts the Voltec program and the timetable for Gen 2 and 3, it will have been another case of short-term thinking interferring with the long-term good. And the long-term good, IMO, is to get these next generations of Voltec technology out the door so GM can:
1. Sell Voltec cars at a profit
2. Diversify its Voltec offerings to include SUVs/Crossovers and other vehicles with “bad” aerodynamics. (A development that will require improvements in batteries that we all asssume are on the way.)
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:02 am
Mr Peper says “One of the issues with the Malibu hybrid has been that the four cylinder 6 speed transmission Malibu gets 33 MPG on the highway,” he said. ” It has the best fuel economy of any mid-size car out there for a normal gas engine, so it makes it that much tougher to make a hybrid that gets significant better gas mileage than that.”
Mr Peper is giving the normal GM viewpoint on hybrids, that they are just PR.
From the quote, it does not seem Mr Peper’s opinion has changed.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:02 am
It seems obvious to me that people won’t spend a lot of extra money to get a few MPG more. I think GM could have asked me before they started down that path. I try to follow good common sense with these things, and I always have you guys to correct me when I screw up.
So, if I were to purchase a hybrid, it had better do significantly better in the MPG area. I say at least 50% better. The extra cost for the hybrid should
match the gas savings in a reasonable amount of time.
Is this a lot to ask for?
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:05 am
What completely dumbfounds me is how the Malibu hybrid idea ever made it past the initial internal GM pitch session. When you slap the “hybrid” tag on the tail of a car that’s going to be sitting on the same lot as the non-hybrid version there better be some compelling fuel savings. The fact that it will drive like a 6 cylinder and drink like a 4 cylinder won’t sell that car.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:07 am
Lyle said Peper disclosed to GM-Volt.com that GM is now working to develop an extremely fuel efficient dedicated hybrid besides the Volt.
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That’s nice, and I’m glad to hear it.
His statement is pretty foggy as to what or when.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:07 am
P.S. I’m curious as to what form this “extremely fuel efficiant hybrid” will take, i.e. a Prius-like synergy drive?
Bring back the rumors about Toyota!!!!
Regardless, I still don’t see parallel hybrid as a long-term solution. Way to complicated. That synergy drive exists at all is a testimony to Toyota’s engineering and manufacturing competence.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:09 am
..people will naturally start comparing it…
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I think the Chevy idea was that people would start buying it, because of the label. (smile)
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:10 am
Just at a glance, it seems like they may be trying the approach of building whatever car someone might want to buy — rather than trying to provide “upgrade path”.
That sounds like a step in the right direction to me!
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:10 am
Agreed when you said “I still don’t see parallel hybrid as a long-term solution.“
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:13 am
I don’t think it was ugly. It just blends in with everything else.
I do agree they need to make a sharper looking car that will sell.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:37 am
Nothing was said about a business plan to make a profit on this new hybrid vehicle.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:45 am
Ed Peper said: “Consumers are not going to pay for it unless they can get significant better fuel economy,” he said.
What? The extra 2MPG doesnn’t justify the extra $3,950 price tag? Don’t let this guy too close to Mark LaNeve, that is way too much common sense.
—
“I think when we bring out a hybrid, and I think its very important, we’ve got to make sure it has significantly better fuel economy than a non-hybrid,” said Peper.
In a related matter, Mr. Peper also conceeded the car should also have doors and a inside mounted steering wheel. It is also pretty easy to rag on a car/concept that you just canned, I’m sure if you asked him about the Tahoe, Escalade, Aura or Vue, the story would magically change.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:53 am
What I would like to see is a design architecture in a hybrid that can de-couple the ICE as in being in Neutral, and, having a removable plate at the final drive so that a well-engineered drive motor can be installed with a matched battery pack and controller/charger.
This, if designed from the start may be a way give that car a “second extended life” in as much as when the typical ICE depreciation sets in, and, the greater portion of the usefulness of the ICE has been utilized, then, the car can be considered
**********************************
CONVERSION FRIENDLY
**********************************
or,
only several years into the ownership of the car, if market costs do come down, then that car would tend to hold more of its value, just because a final-drive-access (to drive gearing) was designed into it.
This may possibly be less invasive to production, yet yield highly promising future potential for buyers if that future develops.
Business Risk to GM might be nicely reduced for something like that.
And, if aftermarket battery suppliers like A123 see that there is substantial public interest in doing these conversions, then, there could be dovetailed interest in producing battery packs that would take the place of the spare tire and part of the trunk area.
(Tires might be the low rolling resistance ” ‘run-flat’-so-who-needs-a-spare” with its extra weight anyways).
There may be design advancement inertia that “spins off” from the Voltec program with the generalized higher- intellectual properties increasingly resident at GM for this type of “conversion-friendliness” architecture to possibly be made available.
But, in order to reduce the chances that business risk for the “tie-up” of GM engineering design person-hours is made viable and justifiable, I recommend that the opportunity for increased casual business relationships be made available to “grass roots” electrical engineers our here in the field (via “TellFritz”).
They can provide a sense of any combination of the following per each and every facet of a possible “convertability” market study (or many, many other aspects of feasibilities) , as conferred from those Electrical Engineers out in the field.
They are, and have been for years, actually been doing the extremely extensive work of these conversions in the first place.
For each design modification-consideration, there may be:
concrete interest,
disinterest,
conditional interest,
low but definite interest,
medium but definite interest,
high interest,
conditional committment,
conditional coordination,
willingness for informally advise
as to their professional preferences,
or, what would be mutually-beneficial
to all, advancement reducing business
risks to drive electrification, by reducing some costs reliably.
Having friendships with field engineers and independent aftermarket sources WILL be highly advantageous for the prevention of misdirected assets.
Pay something immediately-to-start with them for their extremely valuable time. Only two hundred dollars per hour for ten to twelve hours per week will ALWAYS ALWAYS be worth a thousand times the price. (Just send a check in the mail. Yes, I am not kidding. For the first five hours. It’s not a big contracting deal, just do it. Endorsement equals commitment for certificated personnell).
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Chevrolet manger Ed Peper states “It [the Malibu] has the best fuel economy of any mid-size car out there for a normal gas engine, so it makes it that much tougher to make a hybrid that gets significant better gas mileage than that.”
The Hybrid Malibu from what I have read is hardly a hybrid and would not contend for my dollars. I see a market full of cars. if I am in the market for a “hybrid” label, a hybrid would be what I would get. if the Malibu hybrid was an upgrade, it had better be an upgrade to a hybrid. But I would quickly find the Malibu is not what my traditional idea of a hybrid is supposed to be (or be anything close to it).
In fact, the Hybrid Malibu simply tells me – even when it comes to Hybrids, GM can’t make a fuel efficient car (this would detract me from the comment about the Malibu actual having “the best fuel economy of any mid-size car out there for a normal gas engine”. GM should have said it was “eco” friendly or something, but not a hybrid. The idea of trying to sell some fuel efficiencies as a hybrid is simply wrong, and ultimately will produce negative PR – hybrid enthusiasts will make sure of this – http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/chevy-malibu-hybrid.html
I would say honesty is the only thing that can save them at this point. Stop the rhetoric and face facts. The hybrid Malibu did not deserve the label “Hybrid.” It was more efficient, and may have some great engineering inside, but it is not a hybrid.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:58 am
“Regardless, I still don’t see parallel hybrid as a long-term solution. Way to complicated. That synergy drive exists at all is a testimony to Toyota’s engineering and manufacturing competence.”
Actually is a simple mechanical solution.. two motors, two inverters, a battery and a simple geared device.. easy to manufacture and reliable, replacing an automatic transmission, the starter and the alternator in a conventional car. It may actually be cheaper to manufacture than a conventional car….The hard part is the design and integration, to balance the power of the motors against the power of the ICE and then tune the whole thing to the weight of the car and desired performance. Toyota probably has sophisticated models and computer simulations to help with this, witness how they fine tuned the 2010 Prius, bigger car, bigger engine, bigger motors, smaller battery and yet they achieve better performance and economy. Toyota has truly mastered that design.
The advantage of the Voltec tech is that it is much easier to design, manufacture and integrate.. the disadvantage is that it will be easy to copy by other manufacturers.
The Voltec tech will be easier to morph into a pure BEV solution, just remove the genset.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Good point, but GM really needs to hibridize the large trucks and sedans it sells, before gas gets back up to $4 a gallon.. it attempted to do this with the two-mode transmission but apparently it is horrendously expensive. They should have copied the Honda tech, there you just replace the flywheel on the engine with a thin pancake assist motor.. a relatively inexpensive ($5k??) solution. There is no point to add a $20k system to a vehicle to just achieve a 20% improvement in gas economy.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:08 am
People don’t buy a hybrid for 6 cylinder type performance. Honda proved this with the Accord Hybrid.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:17 am
Duh, GM – the only reason I’m going to pay for the Volt is because the significant savings that it offers. When they came out with their 10% fuel mileage improved hybrid trucks, I was thinking, you’ve got to be kidding. What a waste of time and money. Give me 35%+ and depending on price, I may be more interested.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:18 am
The Chevy Malibu is on of the nicest looking sedans on the road today.
It is BMW the has gone over the ugly side. Goofy styling on the 3 series.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:20 am
The Volt’s series design is one that has a lot of conceptual elegance.
I like it and hope it proves to be a commercial success.
That said, it is not clear to me that series is more or less efficient in itself than is the parallel hybrid design with synergy drive. Explain?
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:20 am
“P.S. I’m curious as to what form this “extremely fuel efficiant hybrid” will take, i.e. a Prius-like synergy drive?”
It will be an upgraded Belt-Alternator-Starter system, BAS+, with a stronger electric motor.. not at all like the Prius system.. similar to the Honda system but GM puts the motor in the front of the engine and connected to it by a large belt. Honda places the motor on the back of the engine, replacing the flywheel on a conventional car. The BAS system is probably easier to fit in an existing engine compartment, since it just replaces an alternator with a slightly bigger device. The Honda system goes in-between the engine and the transmission and that may be harder to fit in a front wheel drive car.
The Two-Mode transmission can be described as like having two complete Toyota parallel systems together, combined by several clutches (four clutches I think).. one system is optimized for low speed and the other one for high speed.. a fairly complicated device.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:30 am
It is not clear to me if Mr. Peper is talking about the next generation of BAS or a fourth hybrid design. We had the old BAS, canceled right now, the two mode, both front and rear wheel drive versions, and the EREV. I did not understand why the old BAS was not available with the 6 speed transmission. Hopefully the new BAS will be available with the six speed transmission. Beyond that, GM needs something to compete with the Camry Hybrid, and the Ford Fusion. I do not think the new BAS will move the performance up to that level, but it is a possibility.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:33 am
With the work on the Volt almost finished, this seems like a step backward to me…..
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:38 am
Are you an electrical engineer by any chance?
I think, IMO, electrical engineers are attracted to the (electrical) simplicity of Voltec.. mechanical engineer types are more attracted to the mechanical elegance of Toyotas system.. lots of whirling and counter-rotating gears, its not intuitive how it works at all.
Series MAY be less efficient in highway travel due to electrical conversion losses from the generator driving the motor.. this will not be known for sure until GM releases some hard numbers.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:40 am
statik said Mr. Peper also conceeded the car should also have doors and a inside mounted steering wheel.
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ho, ho, ho Mr Peper did however note that without windows there would be a weight reduction and no need for air conditioning.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:43 am
From past threads we have learned that Mr Peper speaks for the whole entire Chevy brand, all its cars and trucks, but never any particular car or truck, because after all he has to keep the big picture in mind
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:44 am
But… but… but… How can this be??? I’ve been assured by so many here that the Volt is superior, that it’s the way of the future, that mere conventional hybrids are inferior, that they are yesterday’s news, obsolete, also-rans…
Seriously, for those of us that thought the Volt was not a good idea, this news is highly amusing.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:46 am
The extra cost for the hybrid should
match the gas savings in a reasonable amount of time.
————–
Seems reasonable to me, although I think Chevy has been thinking that the word “hybrid” has value in itself as a prestige label.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:46 am
BillR: “The third level is the 2nd level with plug-in capability. With up to 20 miles AER, this could effectively double EPA numbers. So a small SUV (like the former Saturn Vue) might get 70 mpg!”
I agree Bill! ….and we need to remember that GM’s 2-mode plug-in Vue has an extremely-robust CTS-derived V6 as well as TWO 55KW electric motors (approx 74HP each) capable of propelling it at sustained highway speeds. Also, at the same time the plug-in Vue is able to tow 3,500 lbs & haul 5 passengers plus lots of gear its estimated 70 mpg significantly exceeds the mpg of the newest (and much smaller) Prius as well as any other hybrid on the road today.
And GM has already extensively road tested this 2-mode plug-in in several Vue mules. The newly-announced Chevy Equinox crossover CUV, as an example, would be an ideal vehicle to employ this remarkable PHEV drive train.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:48 am
“What I would like to see is a design architecture in a hybrid that can de-couple the ICE as in being in Neutral, and, having a removable plate at the final drive so that a well-engineered drive motor can be installed with a matched battery pack and controller/charger.”
That would not be too hard to do, just put the motor in between the transmission output and the wheels.. the motor does not need a clutch at all and the transmission can just dis-engage the ICE as needed. Really easy to do in a RWD vehicle.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:51 am
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:53 am
The mild hybrid Malibu was a crude attempt at offering a hybrid with very little dedicated design. Simply said, they replaced the alternator with an electric motor, larger serpentine belt and a tensioner that worked both ways (motor/alternator). The results were abysmal as reflected in the ecconomy produced.
Good observation #19
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:53 am
It about time. That ugly Malibu hybrid was not worth the extra cost. GM needs to look at Honda and Toyota to get some clues about how to make an efficient vehicle.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Nor did GM bother to make the hybrid as good as possible. In spite of the $3900 surcharge on their hybrid, it still has the antiquated 4-speed transmission. If they actually cared about performance and fuel economy, they’d have put the 6-speed into the hybrid.
GM believes it’s just greenwashing and not worth real investment.
It will be extremely interesting to see how GM does a purpose-built hybrid.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Except it didn’t have the performance of the 6 cylinder. It had the normal 4-banger and an extra few hp from an oversized starter motor.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:10 am
______________________________________________________
Kill BAS+
Replace it w/ Volt Basic (the Chevy Voltec power train but with much smaller capacity t-battery & sans plug).
KISS
______________________________________________________
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:11 am
They would have to be crazy to have 4 different hybrid designs in the market at the same time.. the BAS+ is perfectly fine, you could always make the ice an Atkinson cycle and boost mileage that way.. not an expensive conversion. Can anyone get a Malibu sized hybrid past 40 mpg?
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Sidenote: If you are like me, and don’t value your time online…then hop on over to GM Fastlane at 2PM EST, where Bob Lutz will attempt to explain why GM has given him the keys to the company in a 1 hour ‘webchat’:
———-
From Fastlane:
“Bob Lutz will host a Webchat right here on Fastlane Monday, July 13, from 2:00 to 3:00 p.m. EDT to answer questions about his new role as GM vice chairman responsible for all creative elements of products and customer relationships. Lutz will oversee GM’s brands, marketing, advertising and communications…and will also empty the trash cans at night before he leaves” (I may have added a sentence in there…can you find it?)
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/07/webchat_bob_lutz_on_reaching_customers_in_his_new_role.html
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:34 am
While we’re discussing new hybrids, see Lyle’s other site (link below) showing Toyota’s announcement of their Lexus 250h 4-door sedan, for which they already have 1,500 pre-orders —to be sold starting late this summer only in Japan. The car’s silhoutte looks remarkably like that of a Volt (it’s FAR better looking than a Prius)!
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1022139_toyota-takes-1500-pre-orders-for-lexus-hs-hybrid-in-japan
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:36 am
IMO GM certainly should not look at Prius or Insight for any styling inspiration. If Malibu is “ugly”, for context would insert “butt” in front of “ugly” when describing the ovoid roller skate Prius. Of course if one sees beauty in the function alone, well, that is other than styling.
Ah yes, automotive styling and personal preference. Almost as good at instigating heated discussions as baseball (or pick your favorite sport) and/or politics.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:39 am
So GM will now build a Prius fighter? Tacit admission that the Volt will be too expensive for the market share GM wants? An attempt to keep Toyota from chewing away the Volt market by doing less expensive 15,20, 30 AER cars?
Is GM going to attrit their own market for the Volt?
The new GM is looking Brilliant!!
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:49 am
The reason to buy the Volt is not to save money but rather to use as little Gasoline as posible and in fact none for most customers daily driving and that includes me.
Allowing the oil industry to have noose around our necks may cost justifiable to you but not to me.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Fact: Even the Toyota Camry (that uses the HSD) doesn’t sell well.
When people have a comparison model and the only difference is a small tag on the trunk that says, “Hybrid” and a huge price difference they don’t feel the value.
The Prius is only a hybrid and thus they get the green feel. So, GM building a stand-alone hybrid model is the right way to go. Or is it?
Second, the GM mild hybrid is pathetic. If that gets me some negative votes, so be it. It was a half-assed attempt.
The new GM hybrid technology better be very close to the performance of the HSD or what’s the point? Since I think this might be very hard to achieve (Prius is in the third iteration of the design) perhaps they should just stick with plug-ins, Voltec and BEVs.
Since in 5 years the world will know we have reached peak oil, we won’t thinking of hybrids (even they will use too much fuel) I think it’s a waste of time and resources.
Go forward, not backwards. The hybrid-only era is owned by Toyota. let’s give them a nod and vow to beat them in the next era – the plug-in era. Game on.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:52 am
The Ford Fusion is just a little bigger than the Malibu and gets 41 city.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Right.
For non-plug-ins, it’s the mileage that counts. A hybrid that only gets 30 MPG won’t be popular.
For plug-ins, it’s the electric range that counts. A plug-in that only gets 10 miles of electric assist won’t be popular.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Let’s face it — regular ICE cars that are turned into hybrids do not catch the average consumer’s attantion. Honda has had the same problem with its Civic and Accord hybrids — and that’s why they brought the Insight back. If a car needs a hybrid badge in order for people to recognize it as a hybrid, it’s not going to sell.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Sargent Pepper’s Lonely Heart’s Club Band! LOL! I say, you had the Vue up and running but pulled the plug, so to speak. And as StatiK noted in other matters, GM’s including inside steering and doors is a stroke of better engineering. Amazing! Put a spare tire on an outside fender or both fenders!
Seems that this car should include a plug in mode for a smaller than Volt type battery that would allow for some miles (7) on electric up to 45 mph and powerful assist to get the ICE neatly up to speed. Kind of like a plug in Prius but much more and yet far less costly than a VOLT.
Oh, add windows that can be lowered as the Lads like to hang their doggie heads out! Sadly they are still on a slow boat from China.
Regards!——-Higgins PS: Carcus1 gin and tonic will never be the same!
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:58 am
You may believe putting the future of GM in one idea. Not me I think they need to explore all options and build competitive cars for all buyers.
I firmly believe Toyota is working a hard and fast as posible to develope a E-REV so as not to be left behind if it is vastly superior to their design s most think it will be.
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July 13th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Stop whining – GM tried to give consumers a less expensive hybrid option at a lower price point, and get this to market as quickly as possible. If Toyota cared about their customers, they wouldn’t make truck frames that rust to the point of collapse in 2 years.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Yes I agree – is the Voltec/EREV design superior to a hybrid? If yes, why invest millions/billions in an inferior model?
I guess new GM makes the same mistakes as old GM… no clear model/technology politics…
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Why? Why? Why GM going to put so many resources toward a new form of hybird? extreme hybrid? Come on. GM already have an EXTREME HYBRID which is a NON PLUG-IN Volt with a small cheap rechargeable battery (1~5 mile will be fine). they can sell million of these NON PLUG-IN Volt. the NON PLUG-IN Volt will beat any form of HYBRID including Prius. Come on NEW GM!!!!! Don’t follow the leader, be the leader.
How much will a NON PLUG-IN Volt cost? -$16.000 battery = AFFORDABLE.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:14 am
I don’t think this will hurt Volt sales. IMHO, the Volt will still be the clear winner for those who can afford it. But obviously most people can’t afford it, and GM wants something to sell to the mainstream hybrid buyer.
At some point, hopefully, GM will get the price of the Volt down to the point where they will render their own “new” hybrid obsolete. But they need something to sell in the meantime.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:16 am
>> the Lads
>> they are still on a slow boat
By any chance, they wouldn’t be traveling on one of these, would they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCVP
After all, you’re Higgins, and 9 knots isn’t very fast.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Right, After the carpocalype, there are only around 25,000 Camry hybrids sold per year, one trim in a vehicle that sells around 300,000 copies per year. What an unpopular vehicle.
/sarcasm off
The reason that the Prius works for Toyota as a dedicated vehicle is that is has a high enough volume (greater than 100,000 per year).
GM better cough up something as popular if it wants to succeed at the end game (electric drive). This requires a desirable (word of mouth rules) fuel efficient hybrid and effective marketing of it as a mainstream vehicle, neither of which has been GM forte to date. Sure, as GM set it up with their mild and monster SUV/PU Truck hybrids, hybrids were PR only for GM, and negative PR at that.
Now if GM had the will and leadership skills to produce highly efficient vehicles with electric drive and market them for mainstream acceptability and desireability, that might change.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Many here are talking about the $7,500 tax credit for cars like the Volt, but didn’t I remember reading somewhere that after tax credits, the Malibu hybrid was only about $500-$1000 more, so the payoff was rather quick?
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Can you talk about what the all electric range (if it has one) happens to be these days?
If all of those stats are true (and make it to a production vehicle), it might be the ideal all-around family vehicle. It could probably tow away and replace everything in my driveway, including the Prius!
But, the engineering adage “you can make tradeoffs or throw money at the problem” must still apply… Where are the tradeoffs? Surely that 70mpg applies when the batteries are fully charged from the plug? (A vehicle that could get me a few miles to work and back on batteries but would get 25mpg when towing a trailer great.)
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Right.
The main attributes that set the Volt apart are these:
1) 40 miles all-electric range.
2) the ability to run on gas or E85 after that.
If a parallel (a.k.a. full, strong, series-parallel, etc.) hybrid could do that, it would compete well against the Volt. The series vs. parallel debate is meaningless to me. If the Volt Gen 2 was a parallel hybrid, but still had 40 miles AER, I wouldn’t care.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Toyota wouldn’t have built a large gas hog pickup if they cared that much about the environment, either.
Greenwashing!
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Honda produces weak hybrids, as the gas engine never shuts up and the electric motors are tiny and underpowered. However, with the addition of a semi-powerful electric motor for some semi-decent electric drive torque, their less than a year away CR-Z sports hybrid may change that. For folks who want the V6 type punch of the popular but limited sales area Nissan Altima hybrid (which I think kinda seats, feels and drives kinda like a Dodge Charger V6 (aggressive acceleration, beefy and likes to bellow (I dislike the bellow))), it may become the best game in town for a little while.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Sure, that explains why no Nissan Altima hybrids sell, even though they have a highly limited sales area.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Unfortunately, when GM hybridized their large trucks, people demonized GM. They said it was a waste of money, even though hybridizing a large vehicle saves more gas and money than a small vehicle.
If you have a 50% coupon for any restaurant, wouldn’t it make sense to use it towards cutting down the bill of a more expensive meal? The same goes with hybridizing a vehicle with a large gas bill.
Check out: http://www.mpgillusion.com/
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Charging a premium for a hybrid version of a standard car didn’t work for the Camry hybrid or the Accord hybrid or the Civic hybrid. It was a disaster for the Malibu, probably because the mpg differential was so small. I’m just not sure what took everyone so long to figure this out. It’s probably because the lead times are so long that it’s hard to process new information in a timely way and switch courses.
A separate hybrid model is probably necessary for learning purposes but quite unexciting. Hopefully it will be a CUV or something — a Prius competitor seems like an also ran, especially when the Insight is already out there and given the fact that the Volt is such a better Prius than the Prius.
Seems like the mild hybrid stuff should simply become standard as a way to meet CAFE.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:31 am
From what Peper said, it seems that some in GM may have finally learned their lesson and listened to the “buying” public. You cannot sell any type of hybrid and charge more money for it unless there is a significant gain in mileage. And I do mean significant gain. It needs to take the 33 MPG Malibu up to around 45 – 48 MPG to be considered significant. That’s about a 50% increase. And that may not be enough to be competitive. IMO.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:34 am
I am in tears laughing! Made the day Mike-o-Matic. The Lads would be sick for ever on such a trip.
I recall the time that Magnum did a re-enactment and used a Higgins boat. You see, the craft had a most choppy ride and Magnum was seasick for sometime. At least he was not being shot at save for the one bullet from a sniper. That is another story…
Fine Regards!—Higgins
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Mostly, I agree. But I think that a 10 MPC range could be successful depending on cost and other factors. Ten miles is not bad for a lot of people, but I do agree that the more MPC you can attain within a given cost structure, the more successful the vehicle will be. The Volt certainly hits the “sweet” spot and gets the “minimum” MPC needed to be acceptable. Hopefully GM is promising low and will deliver higher MPC at the beginning of life for the battery. That would be great.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:37 am
I’d agree with you on the levels for fuel efficiency. There is probably a marketing purpose attached to each level as well:
1. Mild hybrid on many vehicles for the purpose of meeting CAFE.
2. Strong hybrid on larger vehicles for the purpose of meeting CAFE and enticing buyers who are concerned about their green creed.
3. Plug in technology for the purpose of having a halo green creed CUV.
4. Volt tech for the purpose of having a halo green creed vehicle.
So at this point two are for show, one is for show and CAFE, and one is strictly for CAFE. The problem is that they are all very pricey alternatives. GM really needs to get the mild hybrid costs down to under a $1000 in order to have it make an impact.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:38 am
>> laughing!
Well, for this I am glad. You make me laugh all the dang time!!
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Isn’t the Volt really a hybrid sedan too? Last I checked it runs on electricity and gas.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:40 am
We can all agree that GM made some bad decisions in relation to their “hybrid” offerings. I do not understand them not offering the six-speed transmission in the Malibu Hybrid, if that is correct. GM should never have even offered a “hybrid” that did not offer significant mileage gains over a full ICE vehicle. Just a waste of money and bad PR at the same time.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:42 am
“The 2009 4-cylinder Malibu has an EPA rating of 22 MPG city | 33 MPG hwy. The 2009 Malibu hybrid gets 26 MPG city | 34 MPG highway. It uses GM’s first generation mild belt-alternator-started hybrid system.”
Aw maaaannn….
With those numbers GM needs to dump that tech. What a waste. Look at those numbers, they suck a$$. Did they NOT see the numbers Toy and Honda put out? I mean it’s slapped right there on the window at the dealers/internet.
Please tell me they are not going to seriously spend $$$ on this BAShit.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:43 am
I agree but it is probably much too early for us to expect some concrete information. I hope when he said “an extremely fuel efficient dedicated hybrid besides the Volt” he was talking about a completely separate model line from the Malibu, Impala, Volt, etc. I think a dedicated hybrid line is what GM needs to produce. Make it a distinctive line with a distinctive look and one that gives superior mileage to the Ford Fusion and rivals the Prius (bettering the Prius would be outstanding).
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Ideally, GM’s new dedicated hybrid should somehow reinforce or help it’s sibling Voltec technology along. It’s hard to see how a belt-driven anything would do that.
Somewhat in the arena of Herm’s suggestion, my idea would use the same front-end that the Volt has; or the same drive motor, controller and transaxle at least.
In the dedicated hybrid, the engine would be turned north-south and a simplified automatic would engage a top gear somewhere above 40 – 50 mph. All slower speeds would be handled by the Voltec-derived system, with regeneration.
The direct-couple to RWD would only work at what one might consider highway speed (where rear-powered wheels provide the best over-the-road performance, and where electric drive may have weaknesses as noted earlier).
Instead of the LG pack, a higher energy-dense “power” battery pack would be used (like the Hitachi or whatever batteries they recently contracted for use in hybrids?) and there would be no plug.
It’s interesting to note that the front wheels could still regeneratively slow such a hybrid even from highway speeds, so this would tend to keep the high-energy ’storage-bucket’ topped up on a road trip.
In town, the transmission to the rear wheels would likely never engage, and the car would, to all intents and purposes, be a Volt in extended-range mode.
The aftermarket conversion market could work within this architecture pretty easily, assuming better batteries are developed; and might only require space conversion for additional cells, a charger, and new firmware.
By using common elements with Voltec, parts volume would increase with reduced overall costs for both programs (though not for batteries, I admit).
This may be the only Volt-derived way to develop a larger vehicle which can tow moderately-sized trailers, in the near term anyway.
Maybe this is exactly what you guys were describing, and I just didn’t “get” it.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:44 am
It’s not a CVT (the media gets this wrong ALL the time), you know. The media merely says this all the time for comparison to older applied technologies because a good CVT also lacks shifting pauses and jerks.
It uses a sun planetary gear system with a power split, so the Prius only drives in a single gear. The Prius is thus only and always in Top Gear (to be true to its name, that show should only test vehicles in their top gear – I’d love to hear them continually stall the full gassers).
This is the most complicated, least clear explanation of the Prius drivetrain that I could find:
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_24/
It’s extremely intuitive – one gear assisted by the electric motor, which has max torque at 0 rpm, at the low end to make up for low torque at the low end from a gas engine in only one top gear. Run the engine in an efficient timing cycle using optimal rpms for extra double hapiness efficiency.
The electric motor also provides near linear acceleration at low speeds, with no pauses and jerks from shifting, and non-mechanical regenerative braking slowing which makes for much more controlled and safer stops and starts in poor road conditions, once the driver bothers to take advantage of the intrinsic superiorties of electric drive and regenerative braking.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:46 am
What is it with the “click to show comment” mess? As of this moment I will no longer click to see someone’s comments. If you can’t produce the comment out in the “clear” forget about commenting. That’s my opinion and I am sticking to it.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Of it’s immediate competition, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima and Ford Fusion, the Malibu beats them all hands down in the looks department! However, there is room for improvement and that can be said for 90+% of the cars being sold now.
It’s going to get tougher and tougher to make good looking cars with so much priority on wind tunnel results. For fans of the automobile, we are in for a dark age. I don’t see a automotive renaissance until BEVs finally have a energy storage device that can compete head to head with gasoline in price and performance.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:50 am
“At some point, hopefully, GM will get the price of the Volt down”
GM won’t be able to achieve this for another 6-8 years. To do this in less time they would have to dumb down AER to like 10 miles. Why are they even considering this BAShit hybrid tech? I dunno. Affordability is the key here and at $40K it is no where close to affordable. If/when a PHEV Prius comes out with a 10 AER at below $30K it’s a Volt Killer in my book. Sure 10 sounds like crap but there are more folks that have a plug @ work and one @ home than there are folks who can afford a $40K car.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:52 am
The “label” just wasn’t enough, was it? Most people looking for a hybrid naturally compared the Malibu Hybrid to the Prius and the Malibu Hybrid came out losing. There just isn’t any comparison. Never was and never coul be. And the idiots at GM who thought the public would buy based on a lablel have been proven not only idiots but stupid ones at that. Way to go GM. I hope you have learned your lesson. If not, we are ready to teach you so more. Just bring out another “label” only vehicle and watch the “fur” fiy. I wish you luck, but it had better be distinctive and significant as a hybrid vehicle. That or you risk losing once more.
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July 13th, 2009 at 10:53 am
I agree with what you said here. When I think of a dedicated true hybrid for GM, I’m picturing a car with the handsome attractiveness of a new Malibu, with mpg in the high 40’s, and priced to run neck and neck with Ford’s Fusion Hybrid. That seems reasonable to me. Whether they strive to do this with a variation of the Cruze or one on the Malibu platform, they need to get it right this time. It’s gotta be authentic, full blown, tried and true hybrid, or forget about it all together. I’m hoping they get it right.
Ford seems to be getting lots of good press for the Fusion Hybrid, so maybe there’s hope for GM too. (fingers crossed).
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:00 am
I just don’t understand why the 2-mode hybrid transmission is so much more expensive than the HSD method Toyota uses. You would think with the development cost being shared by GM, Chrysler and BMW (wasn’t it?) the cost would be much less than the extra sticker price for a 2-mode hybrid vehicle that GM offers. Just doesn’t make sense. Must be something we are missing.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:01 am
But only electicity for the drive wheels.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Right. Another example of a “label” being applied without success. Even the Civic Hybrid suffers from low sales. With the Honda Insight on the market and a new, smaller hybrid coming to the market, I suspect the Civic Hybrid will be discontinued. Hybrids must be a stand-alone brand to be success, IMO. That or offer much improved mileage over its ICE siblings and that hasn’t been accomplished very well, except with the Civic to some degree.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:04 am
This might make the winning and not-so-much current hybrid system choices obvious, if you consider a break point of 500 vehicles per month, below which I’d call it non-mainstream (sorry, Telsa Roadster and other e manufacturers to date):
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-sales-dashboard/june-2009-dashboard.html
Winners:
1. Full or strong assisting electric drive.
2. Mainstream style (yes, that includes the Prius) and functionality sedans and small SUVS.
3. Midprice, low end luxury or power apps. This argues for getting a basic options and vanilla (most popular i.c. flavor on the planet) but nicely styled high quality fit and finish quiet Cadillac Converj out there ASAP.
No-so-much:
1. Not electric drive (beefy belt stop/start).
2. Supersized SUVs and trucks.
3. Blingiest gansta models.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:05 am
I would far sooner see a hybrid run with Super Capacitors and no batteries it just makes more sense . The capacitors are easily charged up from regenerative breaking , and the Gen-Set , they cost less than batteries , are good for over a million cycles and they are not subject to cold extreme temperatures like batteries . I want to get my fuel from the gas station , not from the end of an extension cord .
A short burst of power would get the vehicle up to highway cruising speed and the Gen-Set would maintain that speed while also charging the capacitors for passing or long hills .
Size the gen-set to maintain a speed of 70 mph with the smallest possible four cylinder high compression engine with direct injection that will run on NG , Propane , and gasoline and make it a series hybrid .
Slowing down also instantly captures the regenerative energy for the next start from stop .
Design the cars the right way , use Super Capacitors not batteries in Hybrid vehicles .
If I wanted to live for my car I would get a plug-in extended range car or an electric car .
I see a car as a transportation thing , not something I am dedicated to , but it has to look decent and reflect the cost I am paying for the darned thing too . The Volt looks cheap and like most of the other Chevys .
The technology is great , but the image sucks . Put the Converj front end on the Volt and you will have something that will sell , with style and class .
In my opinion if you continue with selling the current styled Volt as we know it , you are asking to fail as a company . The Volt should be the Converj and the high mileage hybrid should be the Volt without batteries that would get over 70 miles per gallon .
Put the batteries in Pure Electric Vehicles and plug them in all you want to overcome your range anxiety .
All Hybrid vehicles should be Series type as well , much simpler and doesn’t cost as much as parallel .
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:07 am
We hardly never hear anything about the Nissan Altima Hybrid. I don’t know anything about it. Does it offer much improved mileage for the extra cost? Or is it like the Malibu, Camry, Civic and Accord hybrids? Mild and expensive for what you get for the money.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:08 am
sgilson,
What kind of mileage are you getting with your Civic Hybrid? And is it worth the extra cost?
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Yes, but the problem is we have no idea about the MPG on ICE mode on the Volt. If it has a good mileage, it wins. Else, only plug-in mode is the added-value in terms of economicity and ecology, at least for gen1.
Hope we get those numbers soon
Cheers
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:10 am
The Prissy Troll strikes again…..
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Technically you are right on both.
It is Hybrid….
It is ALL electric….
The petrol engine electric generator set fires up after 40miles of using the battery.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Does anyone recall GM’s first ultra-light hybrid for full-size Silverados and the like? It was based on a 36V lead acid battery, and placed a direct-drive starter motor/generator at the back of the engine. The idea was that you’d get some regeneration when stopping, the engine would be switched off instead of idling, and the direct-drive motor would start the warm engine again in a quarter turn of the shaft. The whole thing would have saved only a mpg or so.
The only reason I bring it up here is to recall some of GM’s rationale at the time. I recall hearing something about saving more gas overall with minor improvements to larger engines than is saved with larger improvements to smaller engines.
The problem with this thinking was that there was little to nothing left over for the poor sap who was going to pay for it. Buyers wanted a real advantage which benefited their gas tank, not some amorphous, conceptual national gas tank (this does not include those who purchased the early Prius and Insight for environmental reasons; better gas mileage was largely a side-benefit from this point of view).
I think that perhaps it was something of this mindset which found it “OK” to make a Malibu “hybrid” that was only modestly better at wringing miles from a gallon of gas than a “base” version.
Let’s hope that GM can chuck out this dusty old mental-furniture; and make a Fusion-beater, if not a Prius-beater.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:12 am
When I picture a “Hybrid” I see MPG over 40 miles.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:15 am
BillR,
If what you say is true, the only one that is worth doing is the last one – the Saturn Vue plug-in type version. Mild hybrids that cost around $2,000 and delivers at best 2 MPG highway mileage over the ICE only version is not worth the cost and should be shunned. And they will be. As far as the second choice, I think 40/40 would be good as long as the additional cost is held as low as possible. Probably around $2,500 to $3,000 extra. Any more than that and it becomes dicey as a successful hybrid labeled vehicle.
Choice number three is the only one GM should consider. IMO.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Based on this extremely limited criteria, the Volt is indeed, technically, a hybrid. Where you run into trouble is when you realize that it can run on electricity alone for much of it’s operating life; something you cannot say for anything else which matches that criteria.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Absolutely correct, nasaman. I hope GM does come out with a version of the Saturn Vue for the Cadillac, Chevrolet and Buick lines. GMC, maybe. I am still of the opinion that GM should have rolled the GMC brand into Chevrolet or rolled the Chevy truck line into the GMC line and limited it to “trucks”.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Why is everybody bitching about trucks here? So what if Toyota (or Dodge, GM, Ford, Nissan) build trucks. Despite what you may think, trucks are NEEDED. If you live in a house it was most likely built by men (and women) who are independent contractors who drive,,,,, TRUCKS. You can’t put a table saw in the back of a Prius. Wake up folks.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Nice catch. Priceless.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:36 am
I agree the Prius is a popular car because it is a stand alone Hybrid model. When you buy a Prius, you aren’t buying it so much to save gas or money as to say ‘Look at me, I’m a tree hugger’. That’s why it sells and that’s why all hybrid models based on conventional cars (Toyota Camry, Honda Civic, Chevy and Saturn models, the upcoming Ford Fusion), won’t, at least not in the numbers the Prius does.
The real question is, did the Prius saturate the market or is there room for more dedicated hybrids? Because there is no longer a backlog of the Prius, the question arises, ‘If there are people who want a hybrid but aren’t buying a Prius, what are they waiting for’.
1: The Prius doesn’t suit their needs.
2: The car buyer is a customer of 1 company and it isn’t Toyota.
3: Or maybe, just maybe, there is no major market for Hybrids beyond what is currently offered.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:44 am
It’s about getting V6 performance with V4 fuel economy, not vastly improved mileage. It makes 361 foot pounds of torque (which is higher than the new Charger Hemi V8, by the way), of which 199 foot pounds of torque are available at 0 rmp. It’s certainly not mild feeling, though it does feel hefty and solid. Punchy, with a little crude and raw power is more how I would describe it. I would compare its overall interior feel and vehicle performance around town to a Dodge Charger V6, not to a Malibu, Camry, Civic or Accord hybrid.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:48 am
if GM wants to compete with hybrid vehicles….beat the TOP DOG of hybrid vehicles first (PRIUS)….you offer price over it ,you lose, price just under it, you still lose, see HONDA INSIGHT….
GM should compete in other level like VOLTEC SYSTEMS where they are considered the TOP DOG instead of competing with others that they are definitely are going to lose badly…
if they believe in Voltec system so much…..focus on it!!!!!!
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:57 am
The Ford Escape seems to have accomplished it pretty well:
4 cyl FWD Manual trans 22 city/28 hwy 171hp@6000rpm, 171 ft-lb torque@4500rpm
4 cyl FWD Auto trans 20 city/28 hwy same as above
6 cyl FWD Auto trans 18 city/26 hwy 240hp@6550rpm, 223ft-lb torque@4300rpm
Hybrid:
4 cyl FWD Auto trans 34city/31hwy ICE 153hp@6000rpm + electric motor 94hp@5000rpm for total hp of about 247, so just about the hp of the 6 cyl with much better fuel economy. Torque figures only given for the ICE at 136 ft-lb@4500rpm so I’m not sure what the total torque is with the electric motor included although it does seem to accelerate like the 6 cyl.
I do agree that a dedicated model is probably the better way to go though.
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July 13th, 2009 at 11:58 am
A Dodge Charger that can actually go around corners, that is. The Altima hybrid actually feels to me like they stuck parts of at least three different other European and American vehicles together. I look forward to other posters’ thoughtful perceptions of it.
My experience with the Altima hybrid is from a long term rental in a high population density area (city and big suburbs) with a lot of agricultural area touring included.
I got 38.1 mpg on it. compared to the EPA 22 mixed mpg on the V6 non-hybrid.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
The Chevy Volt’s All Electric Range (AER) Will be 40 Miles Both at Beginning and End of Life
http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/30/the-chevy-volts-all-electric-range-aer-will-be-40-miles-both-at-beginning-and-end-of-life/
GM says they will play with the points at which the charger shuts off and the ICE turns on in order to maintain 8kWh of usable battery over the life of the car. Here’s an example of how that might happen:
VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) ……… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at ……… 80% ….. 82% ……… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ……………. 30% ….. 27% ……… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh ……………….. 8 …….. 8 …………. 8 …………. 8
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
DonC said Seems like the mild hybrid stuff should simply become standard as a way to meet CAFE.
———-
Except that mild hybrid does not give a big enough kick to meet the new CAFE, insofar as I understand the new CAFE (which is not very well).
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
At least some of the time, the name GM gives the car you describe is “Volt”
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I think this is Lyle’s doing. The new software he is using for the site let’s him automatically hide all comments with a worse than -10 score.
I had the same opinion you as you until I started asking how are they hiding their own comments. This leads to a better question: could Lyle let us use this power?. Imagine next to the reply button is a ‘hide comment’ button. So we could hide any message we chose. If this was stored in the temp directory so the next time visit those same messages are still hidden. This would fix the only real complaint with the new style; we could hide the messages we have already read and find new messages easier.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
“click to comment” shows up when the net negative votes exceeds 10.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
solo –> to me it is better to say that being seen as green is one of the reasons people buy a Prius, along with its strengths as a good car. I agree that the styling has to be more distinctive than a label to get this boost.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Voltec is superior and I don’t see the point of going away from that.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
“I think that a 10 MPC range could be successful depending on cost and other factors. Ten miles is not bad for a lot of people, ”
Actually, I don’t think it works like that, psychologically. The Mileage numbers are more of an absolute. A car needs to be over 45MPG to be exciting to greenheads. Period. Because there are other cars (can you say Prius?) that do make that number or better. Psychologically, it’s analogous to the old selling points of top speed, H.P., or acceleration number. A higher number, as reported by auto magazines, would direct 70% of the customers to one car over another.
Simply building a hybrid version that gets 10% higher mileage than it’s non-hybrid brother is completely irrelevant if that higher mileage ends up at, say, 36 MPG. Get it? that number has allready been passed by other vehicles. It’s not exciting. It doesn’t impress anybody.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
It about time you silly GM make a good hybrid for the masses. The Volt is too pricey and will remain a niche vehicle. Nice to see your government unload your massive self-induced drunken debt. Now maybe you can successfully compete with the Toyota, Nissan and Honda automotive engineering leadership. Welcome back to the race. It about time.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
““I think when we bring out a hybrid, and I think its very important, we’ve got to make sure it has significantly better fuel economy than a non-hybrid,” said Peper.”
Duh! The bozos who didn’t already know this should be part of the white-collar GM layoffs. A lot of $ wasted. I’m not even in the car biz and I knew it. My heart just sank when I’d read a couple mpg improvement for a couple grand.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
BMW has been working on this approach for years but has yet to come out with anything so perhaps it is not as straightforward as it sounds.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
If i could get a 20 mile all electric 2-mode plug in “vue” Equinox and the I would also purchase a Converj/Volt and I would be set for driving 95% gas free for the rest of my days – if the car lasts 50+ years – ok I’ll be buyibng another one or two
Unless the pricepoint for a hybrid is low I don’t see the return of buying a hybrid – even a Prius – I would rather buy a small electric only go cart – the MIEV? Chevy Spark?
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Prius ………………… 228
CUV PHEV-10 ……… 287
CUV Hybrid .………… 380
Honda Civic ………… 393
The difference between the CUV Hybrid and CUV PHEV-10 is 93 gallons per year. If gas goes back up to $4/gallon, that would be $3720 over 10 years. The plug-in option will probably cost about that much extra, so the total cost is a wash.
Now let’s compare the Volt to a Honda Civic. A comparably equipped Honda Civic (LX w/ automatic transmission) costs around $18K and gets 29 MPG. With a typical driving pattern, the Volt will save 356 gallons per year over the Civic. If gas goes back up to $4/gallon, you would save $14K in gas over 10 years. The Volt will cost around $30K after rebates, so that puts the total cost of the Volt around $2000 less than the Civic.
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
It also is far better looking than a Volt too .
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July 13th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
I agree, which is why they should stick with plug-in hybrid and maybe a no plug version of the Volt.
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
In other news, GM has pulled their gay Camaro marketing campaign after all the controversy.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Makes you wonder, if they try marketing Camaros to the gay communinity, who will they market the Volt to?
http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2009/07/08/gm-tries-to-pitch-camaro-to-gay-men.aspx
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Yes, yes. Good points, all. I do sort of remember some of that being posted by you in the past. Glad you did it again. All of the listed vehicles are better than having a full ICE only vehicle. That makes them all winners, in my book.
Thanks for the battery life chart. Interesting.
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Possibly. Maybe a different model under the Volt name plate? I just wonder if the Volt is a single name plate vehicle. I would assume so.
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Keith ,
I agree with what you are saying 100% . If GM wants to run a profitable business then they had better consider the ability of the people to get approved financing of the products they are going to sell. The Converj group of buyers wont have any trouble with the $40,000 price maybe even $50,000 but the average buyer won’t be able to spring for $40,000 to buy a car , nor would they want to.
I get the feeling that you know much more about hybrid vehicle design than you are telling here , maybe you could enlighten us.
You are right , hybrid vehicles do not need any more than one battery and can work very well using capacitors. It is in the physics of how it is done.
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Maybe so, but I thought I had seen comments shown this way with out the negative comment being anything but zero when I clicked on it. Maybe I did not pay as much attention to that detail, but I will in the future. Thanks.
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
In October when I was car shopping one of the primary reasons I did not purchase a Prius for myself was that it was made by Toyota and I like the Honda Accord better because it was made by Honda. I naturally like the Honda brand better than the Toyota brand. I have backed out of two purchases of Toyota vehicles to purchase a 1995 Honda Accord over the 1995 Camry and now the 2009 Honda Accord over a 2009 Prius. I just could not bring myself to purchase a Toyota over a Honda. Now, that may not be true in the future when it comes time to purchase a new vehicle for my wife. A Prius for her would be fine.
Edited: Another reason for not purchasing the Prius was I knew the 2010 model was coming out this spring and was going to be a good update over the 2009 Prius. I just did not want to wait for the 2010 Prius. I needed to get a new vehicle and move ahead. The Accord was the better decision (for me).
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
I agree with you and Mike_FL #9 and Dr.. Science at 21.
Seems to me the Eco tag would have more appropriate from a marketing standpoint than using hybrid, starting an implied competition with the Prius or stretching it a bit, even the Civic hybrid.
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Simple in concept doesn’t mean simple on the road.
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July 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Yes, the Ford Escape Hybrid does good. Problem is two fold for it. One – it cost about $35,000 and two – it is hard to find one at a dealer. Other than that, it is a good start for Ford and I wish them luck with it. Ford says they are going to add a plug to the Escape and increase its MPC under EV mode. Great, but at what cost? I think GM has a much better solution with the Saturn Vue plug-in if only they would go ahead and release it under the Buick or Chevrolet name plant. Git ‘er done, GM!!!!
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
“The Volt will cost around $30K after rebates, so that puts the total cost of the Volt around $2000 less than the Civic.”
but those rebates wont be around forever.. hopefully GM will be able to bring the cost down quickly.
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Why didn’t Chevy do a BASF system and take out the flywheel too!
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Someone asked Bob about global warming, lol. And hejust couldn’t resist turning the screw a bit more, lol:
Question:
Any plans to either filter your comments or perhaps even support the green movement, since you’ve made such harsh comments against the concept of Global Warming, which upset a lot of people?
Answer:
“I obviously won’t go out of my way to upset people but since i have a tendency to speak my mind i will occasionally unwittingly do so…My personal opinion on global warming has nothing to do with my professional performance. By the way we just had the coldest June on record in the East, and are in the middle of the coldest July. “
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
From Fastlane.gmblogs…Bob Lutz
…”By the way, you should know that all of us who have driven the Volt view it as a thrilling performance car, and you can easily burn rubber with it… without burning any gas!”
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
It seems to be working for Ford though. At least so far. Probably because a) it only costs $3300 more than the regular Fusion, and b) it increases city miliage from 23 mpg, to 42. That’s a huge increase, IMHO, for anyone who does a significant amount of city driving.
As long as the miliage difference is big enough, and the price premium small enough, a hybrid model will sell.
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Toyota HSD is simpler than a regular transmission…how about fewer moving parts?.. no clutch or torque converter.
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Sounds OK. We just don’t hear much about the Altima Hybrid. Nissan does a poor job of marketing it, apparently.
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
You do realize that for the first few years the Prius was largely hand built and sold at DRASTIC losses, don’t you? Not to mention Toyota had plenty of engineering issues and trial & error to get a product it could even sell. The first runs of the Prius still had issues that required redesigns & patches.
I’m not trying to bash the Prius. It’s doing well now. But, call a pig a pig and an apple an apple. I never thought the Synergy Drive system design made much since when it was first made public. I guess some times common sense is lacking in our product designers.
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
A no plug version of the Volt? How would that work? How would the battery recharge?
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Guido: “Stop whining – GM tried to give consumers a less expensive hybrid option at a lower price point”
What was “less expensive” about it? It’s about $2K more than a Prius and $3900 more than a regular Malibu. It’s a useless hybrid option at a hgher price point.
Apparently, GM never figured that the customers would want something concrete, like significantly better fuel economy, for their money. Did GM think they were happy to pay $3900 just to get a “hybrid” badge? Does GM think it doesn’t sell because they “hybrid” badge isn’t big enough?
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
No.
I’d rather get a third off a wine braised salmon salad than half off a more expensive giant log of lard, myself.
Apparently, I’m not the only one:
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-sales-dashboard/june-2009-dashboard.html
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Lots of people buy pickups. Toyota is in business to make money. Connect the dots. It doesn’t matter to the planet whether your 15mpg vehicle comes from GM or from Toyota. It’s the end-users who make the green or brown decisions.
At least Toyota does offer a vehicle for people who want super-high fuel economy. GM? Nope… trucks, trucks and more trucks!
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Because it contains a LOT more moving parts and the nature of it might require much finer tolerances.
I’m perfectly willing to give GM credit where it’s due… The two-mode transmission is effective.
But at the price they must charge, it is a non-starter in a passenger car or light truck.
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Yep… and the son-of-a-gun is right, too. Don’t you just hate it when that happens?
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July 13th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Demonized? How about “it didn’t solve the problem the loud people have?”
If all of the full-sized pickup truck buyers bought the hybrid trucks, then it would make big a difference. But I haven’t seen that happening. The only GM hybrid pickup truck I’ve ever seen was sitting in a new-car lot for months and months, looking for a buyer. I stopped needing to go to that part of that town, so I don’t know if it ever sold.
I love the idea of the electric power-takeoff on their “contractor’s special”, but a full-sized pickup truck would cost more, burn more fuel, take up more driveway-space than my Ford Ranger. My Ranger is bigger than I actually need (I’m a homeowner with a handyman complex), so I’m just not willing to take those hits.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
It is a very reasonable request, Rashiid. One GM did not understand and may still not understand. We will not know until they “flesh” things out more. I think GM would do well to contact either of the two of us before committing resources to a new venture. I know we could have saved them tons of money in the past decade.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
I got the car brand new for $16,500 in 2005. It has been cheap to keep. I get between 45 and 49 mpg on a regular basis. I drive it like a regular car and do not baby the gas pedal. I put those batteries to work! I’m still running on the original brakes and pads. I change the oil every 10000 miles. Nothing has broken on the car. I replaced the tires at 80,000 miles. I would say it was worth the money.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
It’s also nice not having to fill up as often, and less knee-jerk reaction to gas prices that go up 15 cents overnight.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Yes, thanks Dave G, very interesting data.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Diesel
Diesel hybrid,
CNG fuel cell erv
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Yep, when you see the Malibu in the flesh, it is way cool!
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Coincidentally, that’s how our table saw got home– in the back of a Prius.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
48.
Guy Incognito Says:___________________________.
“GM Planning Dedicated High Efficiency Hybrid Sedan”
Uh yeah, about that…
The Volt IS a Dedicated High Efficiency Hybrid Sedan!
I challenge anybody reading this post to prove my above statement is wrong.
Good Luck
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Please compare thw two images, honestly you think the Malibu looks better?
http://www.mixedpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/chevy-malibu.jpg
http://coolcarssb.com/BMWwhitesedan1.jpg
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Nissan only sells it in a few areas, in order to meet CARB loopholes, so it’s quite hard to get them. It’s gotten decent auto mag reviews.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
“My car gets 40 rods to the hogs-head, and that’s the way I likes it!” – Grandpa Simpson.
Seriously – define Sedan? define extremely efficient? define dedicated hybrid? We never get details/actual target #s.
Maybe they are going to make a stretch-puma for all I know.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I just purchased the new 2010 Prius 3 weeks ago for $22,000 and I have been getting 58 mpg driving to work and back (1,000 miles so far). I looked at the hybrid versions of the Fusion, Malibu, Civic, Camry and Insight. I really didn’t want to purchase the Prius (it was the ugliest of all of these), but when it comes to buying a car for high mpg and overall value the Prius is currently unbeatable. I am also no tree hugger, I kept my Ford F150 pickup with the FairTax sticker on the bumper to prove it. I guess I am just a stingy pragmatist who wanted the best value for his money. I will probably sell it and purchase the Volt when it is available in Montana.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
That Malibu sucked arse. The lamest hybrid ever made. You can do better than this GM, okay maybe the NEW GM can.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Is the Ford Fusion really bigger than the Malibu? I would have thought the other way around after seeing them on the road next to each other. I haven’t checked their specifications.
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Well said, Mr. Lutz. I tend to agree with him on global warming. Right now it is designed to influence people and governments and make a lot of money for the likes of Al Gore.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Hardly, I don’t know why it is that Lexus can’t make a vehicle that doesn’t put me to sleep styling wise.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Thanks for the link. It is a good looking car. As Keith says above: “far better looking than a Volt too”. Well, it is good looking anyway. It will probably cost as much as half again as much as the Volt. As far as performance, isn’t it about the same as a Camry Hybrid but with Lexus badges, extra options and additional pricing? So why produce it except to make a ton of money from people who will only buy a Lexus? Seems like a good reason, I guess.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Yes, if the mpg differential is big enough you can pull this off. But the difference has to be larger than it usually is. With the Fusion, even assuming that you drive 10K miles in the city, you’re only looking at about 200 gallons of gas a year. Given that people want a very fast payback, and that gas is only around $3/gallon, this is not a slam dunk.
That said, from what I’ve seen the difference may be more than $3K when you look at selling prices rather than MSRPs, and $3K is about the difference between the base Pontiac G8 and the GT version, the latter being far more desirable if your testosterone is causing you to look for something noticeable for your money.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Is that old geezer still around ?
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
You are hitting on all cylinders, I do believe. Anything with 10 or over mpc before ICE usage is going to heavily impact the Volt. As long as the Volt is $15,000 or more higher in price. Except for the few of us who would still purchase the Volt over the Prius PHEV-10 or PHEV-20.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Schmeltz,
Here’s hoping too.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Capt Jack,
That is what I see also.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Just to be clear, the Honda Civic is the only full ICE only vehicle on the chart.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
That is the system on the Malibu Hybrid that GM did “dump”. What this new hybrid system they are proposing is anyone’s guess. If it does not equal or better the Ford Fusion, GM can kiss it good bye along with all the money it will lose on it. It really needs to push or exceed 55 MPG average with as many miles as possible in EV mode. EV mode is not a necessity, but would be nice. It is far better to put a vehicle in the public’s hands that really delivers on fuel savings at a cost the “average Joe” can afford. If not, GM needs to not waste their time and money. It will not be successful up against the Prius, Insight and Fusion. Not even counting the other competition coming down the pike.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
I ‘ve been reading these threads everyday just to see what is new in the world for EV and EAV and so far many comments lead to that the design of the volt is OK. I agree it is. It’s not a vehicle that would turn my head when it passes me on the street. It’ll probably catch my attention in the parking lot when I see that it is a Chevy Volt, but other than that it is a sedan. There are many great ideas as how it could be remade to appeal to another demographic of drivers. I know it was designed this way for areodynamics and weight, but the volt was supposed to be ‘THE’ car. Right now it blends in too well with the other sedans on the market.
Bring out a sporty model that consumers would enjoy having. GM has already created a model that appealed to many who enjoy writting on this site. The original concept model that drew everybodys attention to the Volt with it’s look and charm. Keep the inside the same, chassis and all. Just change the exterior look. I loved it when the concept was revealed. Seeing the car grabbed my interest in possibly owning one. I liked the write up on the vehicle as well. I have gained a strong interest in EV and AEVs where I want to own one when they are finally available to the public. Though when the production model was revealed my interest in the volt wained. These vehicles are supposed to be the sign of change. So why make them look like every other car in their class in the current market. Make them stand out, grab the attention of other consumers, peak their interest enough to have that second look at the volt. That woud be the best advertizing, being recognized and unique. Then later in the life of the volt, 3-4 years, bring out the sedan, MPV or possibly a truck series. The market is tough enough as it is. Standing out among your competitors makes a bigger difference than following them along.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Right. That’s the whole point of the tax credits. As the sales volume of the vehicle ramps up, the unit cost naturally comes down.
The tax credits run out after 250,000 Volts are sold. At that point, I would be really surprised if GM hadn’t figured out ways to shave $7500 off the cost.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Herm asks “Are you an electrical engineer by any chance?”
—————————-
Yes, right on
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
The problem is everyone wants something different. You said “Bring out a sporty model that consumers would enjoy having.” Many people may not want a sports car. They want a Voltec CUV, or a sedan. Some people also dont like to stand out, driving a Scion box, or an insect looking car…. but some do. I think the Volt, being a Chevy (everyman’s car), the look is not too ‘out there’ or too boring. They need to try to make as many ppl happy with this car as possible, so its all about the averages. Once they get the payback in the #’s (which is ofcourse a debateable #), I think it would be safe to risk some more uniquely styled models. Heck the Converj is very eye-catching. I think if they green-lighted that, you (regarding sportsy design) would be happy at least (me too).
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
EVO– thanks for the link.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Here’s a consumer reports comparison of hybrids from last year…
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/cr_hy_3.jpg
These figures assume $4/gallon gas, but having said that, all of the hybrids except the Lexus models saved money within 5 years. In particular, the Malibu hybrid saved $1800. See link above for details.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Obviously a Volt is NOT a high-efficiency-hybrid-sedan. Thanks for clearing that up.
Dazed and Confused.
Maximum Bob needs to clarify ASAP.
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Wrong Answer Limp Biscuit !!!
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July 13th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
At $40,000 it sure won’t be the single moms on welfare or the working class people who wouldn’t qualify for a loan of that size .
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Actually nothing needs clarified, GM doesn’t consider the Volt to be a hybrid, they consider it to be a E-REV. Agree with that definition or disagree, that is how GM sees it.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Strange. I though E-REV is a “Series Hybrid”. Note the word Hybrid in there?
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Nothing got cleared up except the fact that there is a general consensus on that which we already know: the Volt is a sedan.
As I understand it, the Volt’s over-all mileage will be quite high which kind of sounds like its high-efficiency to me.
Yeah, I kind of agree with #48 Guy Incognito the Volt is indeed a “Dedicated High Efficiency Hybrid Sedan”.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Man, I have been to those distro site’s wher they get their financial “Assistance”. You wouldn’t believe what they drive.
They have better cars than I do.
WTF?
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Guy Incgonito, agreed the Volt is indeed a “Dedicated High Efficiency Hybrid Sedan”
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Yes the Fusion is slightly larger, due to being about 2 inches wider. But they are essentially the same size, weighing within 100 lbs of each other. I did compare the specifications in order to answer Herm’s question with validity.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
On Synergy Drive:
Right. That explains why millions of Synergy Drive systems have sold, have higher than average drivetrain reliability records and lower than average ownership costs.
It’s true that Synergy Drive (HSD) is no longer the latest and greatest (that would be the PHEV and EV offerings coming out). That merely makes HSD mainstream and you can count on it becoming increasingly commonplace, especially after the larger, 22% more powerful Prius gen III has been on the roads for five years.
You don’t have to bash Priuses, EVs, motorcycles, etc, in order to promote the Volt. The market is still small and green enough that any promotion of any vehicle with performance electric drive helps ALL vehicles with performance electric drive. Although all the drama does make for cheap PR.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I agree that they need to beat the Prius at its own game. And, in order to be made obsolete, the Prius must be understood, or they’ll miss the mark. That’s why I talk so much about it…
But, I see no problem with having a diverse lineup that attempts to be the best car for each customers’ needs.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
One of my friends owns one, and he gets a 45-50mpg out of it, driving very gently and keeping a good eye on the battery gauge.
He really wanted to buy a Prius, but his wife vetoed it because she thought it looked weird — so they went for the hybrid with the next highest MPG on the market at the time.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Car dealers are increasing prices for good MPG cars because of the increased demand (artificial) from the cash for clunkers program. Not being critical, but it is basic supply/demand economics.
With the price increases, some markets will will give consumers no net benefit. It is poorly written legislation. Especially since the turned in cars will have a trade-in value equal to the scrap metal — because all cars under this program must be taken off the road.
So some cars that qualify, may actually be worth more than the redemable voucher. Especially in down-turn economy, since the value of your car increases because more people tend to purchase pre-owned.
I don’t qualify for cash for clunkers because my car already gets good gas mileage. But my dad swears by the car buying process here:
http://tinyurl.com/laub3m
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Why does Al Gore need money? He has to be collecting mad royalties from the internets.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I would be interested to actually see how many of us will sit on the sidelines waiting for the Volt, if other EV options present themselves.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Pulled the Z28 today too…no shocker there.
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July 13th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Sure.
Anyone that finds the HSD complicated should probably not try to flense their own oil (see, I still recall some of that turn of the 21st century gasser jargon). It is patent encrusted, however.
I think these are prettier, but my main point is that the Prius (HSD and like systems, really) only runs in top gear and can run in EV only and totally off at stops mode at times, which makes it most like a full EV. That’s got to be part of the love, combined with a light, open feeling interior and sensible practicality in rear legroom, interior layout and storage space. All that’s missing is the external recharging option to step into the real EV world.
http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/Understanding/WhatsGoingOnAsIDrive.htm
http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Gonna try to post something here about the Min-E
Might get moderated…
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
MINI explains the drop in estimated range for MINI E
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/13/mini-explains-the-drop-in-estimated-range-for-mini-e/
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
As I readt the article for the Mini-E I posted, it looks like the ZEV test by the CARB is basically a “Treadmill” test. Only freeay test? Stupid CARB.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Yes, but I did like the power takeoff that that Silverado was supposed to have. I keep hoping that a new hybrid will implement that idea and provide a “generator mode” and a bunch of 110V outlets (and maybe a couple of L6-30 outlets), too.
Either that or I’ll hack a beefy inverter into an existing hybrid — but there are a lot of safety, sanity, warranty, ans spousal-veto issues that come up with that approach.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
You have to consider that the Chevy Cruze is expected to get 40mpg highway. That type of vehicle changes the math considerably.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
He needs $$$ to try and get thos 2 reporters his agency sent in N. Korea!!!!
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Hey, I was thinkin about this BAShit and from what I understand, the electric motor/starter/generator thingy is pysically coupled to the engine, right?
So technically if the “Electric Motor” functionality is coupled in that manner then the torque applied is essentially “Inline” with the engine giving a parallel assist.
Guess what? That’s the same principle as the Honda IMA that Insight uses but it (Insight) gets over 40MPG.
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Good point.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
40 MPG car ………… 285
Any idea how much the Cruze will cost?
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July 13th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
July 13th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
If gas goes back up to $4/gallon, you mean when don’t you ?
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
250,000 Voltecs. Don’t forget, it’s per manufacturer.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Cruze should be around $18k last I heard..
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
I would hardly call myself a troll; perhaps an ogre, but not a troll. Obviously you have not followed any of my other posts in various threads at this site, or any other. As it stands, I would not consider buying a Prius, as I am waiting for the volt.
The Malibu “hybrid” however just looks like a misuse of labelling and quite frankly in my opinion is deceptive conduct.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
This is a good point about G8 and GT and leads to another area that can be done better with future hybrids. The Hybrid Malibu not only suffered from a smallish mileage increase (althought most people fail to mention the city mileage was increased 20%) but it also performed worse than the base model 4 cylinder. This is a shame, because Hybrids offer the opportunity to increase perfomance while also increasing mileage. Nobody seems to talk about the $1500-2000 more it costs to go from 4 to 6 cylinders.
Carmakers should consider targeting 6 cylinder performance with their 4 cylider hybrid options for non-dedicated hybrids. If the could deliver 6 cylinder performance and 30% combined mpg improvement for less than $2000 more, then they should be marketable. Leave the highest mileage consumers for the voltec vehicles, which also perform well BTW.
Either way the performance, price, efficiency value has to be there. They have to balance everything with price instead of assuming anything “green” is going to support an unrealistically high price. They also have to start to play up the lifetime costs, residual values, instability of gas pricing, and national security issues. This could be dangerous to their ICE only business, but they can’t have it both ways without this risk.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Super-capacitors would already have more of a place except they don’t cost less than batteries per KWh. Actually, they still cost much, much more. Hopefully their prices will come down soon and they can start being used in more applications.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
So now they’re calling the Volt a hybrid? lol.
Getting a real hybrid (or multiple of them) on the floor now would actually do the company really well until Voltec technology becomes standard. With hybrids, they will see more customers, more return customers, and therefor likely get more buyers coming to the Volt and other similar platforms when they arrive. It’ll ultimately give GM a much more respectable appeal.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
33 MPG is nothing, I get that on my old GM vehicle, a 1990 Buick Rivera with the 3.8 V6 which I still drive. One may think this as bull crap but I have gotten even better than that on the hyways on long trips which is nothing today. Was GM a sleep with the thinking of 33 as something people were going to fall out of their recliners for.
I only hope that this mentality is not carried over onto the future manufacturing strategy. 33MPG?
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
It’s a shame that it has been drilled into some many people’s minds that Hybrids never pay for themselves or only after a very long time. If you do a costs analysis for past hybrid purchases, you will see this is just not true. Yes, 5 years is a long payback by corporate standards but I think people have a better feel running costs now than they did 3 years ago. The bottom line is that with hybrids, the financial picture is very user specific and blanket statements about viability are poorly thought at best and have offen been intentionally misleading in the past. Unfortunately, the danger here for the Volt is only magnified because of the tremendous variance in yearly gas consumption the Volt will have from user to user.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Actually Bob sold his jet because of economic concerns so he’s doing his bit by cutting down his carbon footprint. (I did see wince when he went on about the coldest June and coldest July – he just can’t give it up). FWIW he didn’t seem to shy away from some tough questions, the issue of his views on global warming being one.
Better to focus on his comment that he doesn’t have a very good track record of not shaking things up. Hopefully he will succeed in the “seemingly simple task” — I think those were his words — of explaining to the buying public that the sins of the 70s, 80s, and 90s are behind GM.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I agree with you, I’m just stating what GM has said in the past.
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Very funny. In this regard, Lutz said that Buick, with a quiet and soft ride, was the choice to compete with Lexus whereas Cadillac, with better performance, was the choice to compete against the German luxury brands. So maybe you’re on to something ….
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July 13th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
The generator aspect was actually the “real” selling point. I believe they conceived this as a contractor option and only tried to “green” it at the least minute so they could say “hey we make a hybrid too.” Too bad they didn’t make it 4+KWh and with 120/240V. This would have sold. Would help sell the Volt too, BTW.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
I’ve always been a fan of GM and their products. All the GM bashers are just whinners
BUT….
GM went into bankruptcy. I’ve always blamed the economy. A company sized for a 14 million unit sales year getting hit with an 8 million unit market will be in serious trouble. So that explains GM’s problems, right? I would have said yes until this article and Mr. Peper saying, “…we’ve got to make sure it has significantly better fuel economy than a non-hybrid,”
DUH!
At least we now have a GM that will admit it’s stupidity. That is not a slam, as Honda has long held, success is built from failure. The trick is to admit you’ve failed and learn from those failures. GM went bankrupt because apparently gigantic-corporate hubris caught up to them.
I’ve always found this video from Honda rather inspiring:
http://dreams.honda.com/#/video_fa
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
CJS, it’s dangerous to drive with your eyes closed. There are a LOT of $30+K cars on the road. Sure, they need to get the price down because it’s a Chevy but the Volt will never be on par sticker price-wise with the Civics or Corollas. People will have to see some value to AER or it will die.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
In my opinion GM should market to all markets with customers.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
To answer that question you’d need to know what those options were. At the moment the only alternatives seem to be the Tesla and the Coda. One is very expensive and not very practical and one is really plain and only available in CA.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
brake regen.. but it would be trivial to install a plug… perhaps not worth it if the pack is very small, good for a couple of miles only.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Lol. I actually agree with him. Not about global warming, of course. (We’re having the coldest June/July on record because of the icebergs melting.)
But I don’t think his personal beliefs about global warming, or the environment, will have an impact on his job performance. Or, at least, it wouldn’t if he stuck to car development…This is why I’m nervous about putting him in charge of customer relations. That said, I for one, appreciate his honesty. It’s rare these days that someone in his position will tell you what they really think.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
The Volt’s battery pack size should be optional, and so should be the addition of a genset.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
have you done the timing belt scheduled replacement yet?.. how much did it cost?
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
It has a chain. Nothing to replace. It does have 8 spark plugs, that should have been changed at 100k, but I’m still pulling good mileage, easy starts and the engine runs very smooth.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
The Japanese have history of making BORING looking cars. Silver (usually) blobs that you can’t tell one from the other.
The last nicely styled Japanese car was the 240Z back in the 1970’s.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Dave G,
All, very good info. Thanks for the time to put it together.
George
=D~~~~
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
“This is the most complicated, least clear explanation of the Prius drivetrain that I could find:
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_24/”
It may be a good explanation but they simplified it so much to the point that it is wrong, here is a good explanation:
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
The system uses two motor-generator, each device can act as a motor or as a generator, one can generate while the other one provides torque to the wheels and viceversa, the motors can even change in the middle of the operation and spin backwards to keep the ICE stationary or fine tune power to the wheels. Its all done by switching voltages to the motors, no clutches or switching gears are needed. It is a bulletproof system.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Laura M
“It seems to be working for Ford though. At least so far.”
Yes. I was helping a friend who was comparing a Prius with the Insight. I convinced her to drive the Fusion as well.
She did like it a lot. But is choosing the Prius because of its uniqueness and tech appeal, esp. dashboard. It’s the, “all of today’s cars look the same” syndrome.
I think the Volt will pull in buyers for the same reasons.
edit, she’s not a big techy person.
=D~~~~
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
No wonder you like the Volt, me too!
Interesting thing I read while finding a link for this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
It states that the HSD has only 70% efficiency in the electrical path.. and this is the reason the latest generation increased the operating voltage to 500volts.. this does not bode well for the Volt’s highway mileage… that efficiency will play a big part in highway mileage, along with aerodynamics.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
No, the Volt is not technically a hybrid. A hybrid is a vehicle that can run on either one of two drive systems, or both in tandem. This is your Prius, Insight, etc. It’s gas, electric, or both together. But, you MUST put gas in these cars.
The Volt is driven 100% of the time by an electric motor. The small on-board gasoline engine is there soley to run a generator to provide juice to the electric drive motor if the batteries get below a certain level (after 40 miles of typical driving). This is the “extended-range” part of EREV. The gasoline engine is not connected to the drive wheels in any way.
EREV stands for “Extended Range ELECTRIC VEHICLE”.
You could conceivably run a Chevy VOLT indefinitely without ever needing to put gas in it. For example, my commute – which is under 40 miles each day – would never require any gas consumption. I would only use gas if I chose to drive more than the 40 miles that my overnight charge would get me in a day. In other words, I can drive anywhere, anytime, without worries about running out of battery power.
This is the genius behind the Volt. No lifestyle change needed, no range anxiety, and no gas usage unless I drive more thatn 40 miles.
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July 13th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
You mean a BAS system?.. in a conventional car the flywheel is used to engage the teeth of the starter, that would not be used in the BAS system since the starter now works thru a belt… but the flywheel is also used for the clutch of a manual transmission car.. and is also used to dampen the torque impulses from the engine. I guess you could do without the flywheel if the car had an automatic transmission and a BAS system… that would save quite a few pounds.
I doubt the Volt’s genset uses a flywheel.. its just a generator attached to the output shaft of the ICE.
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