Frankly, GM’s experiment in mild hybrid sedans didn’t go so well. The automaker had produced a mild hybrid version of the popular Chevrolet Malibu, but sales volumes were low and the program has been discontinued.
Chevrolet manger Ed Peper admits GM learned its lesson.
“One of the issues with the Malibu hybrid has been that the four cylinder 6 speed transmission Malibu gets 33 MPG on the highway,” he said. ” It has the best fuel economy of any mid-size car out there for a normal gas engine, so it makes it that much tougher to make a hybrid that gets significant better gas mileage than that.”
The 2009 4-cylinder Malibu has an EPA rating of 22 MPG city | 33 MPG hwy. The 2009 Malibu hybrid gets 26 MPG city | 34 MPG highway. It uses GM’s first generation mild belt-alternator-started hybrid system.
“Consumers are not going to pay for it unless they can get significant better fuel economy,” he said.
Peper disclosed to GM-Volt.com that GM is now working to develop an extremely fuel efficient dedicated hybrid besides the Volt.
“What we are trying to work towards is ‘Yes,’ we will have other hybrid vehicles (besides the Volt) but we are trying to work towards a dedicated hybrid,” he said. “We think that’s probably a better way for us to go longer term.”
“I think when we bring out a hybrid, and I think its very important, we’ve got to make sure it has significantly better fuel economy than a non-hybrid,” said Peper.
This entry was posted on Monday, July 13th, 2009 at 6:29 am and is filed under Hybrid. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (6:35 am)NGMCO is getting a fresh start. I agree, the buyer paying $4000-$5000 more for a plus 5 mpg hybrid system doesn’t add up. And the feather footing needed to attain the advertised mileage isn’t a lot of fun either.
Best of luck with the new style hybrid cars. I believe NGMCO will find the EREV is what the public will buy.
=D~
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (6:36 am)Halleluja, some sense has been beaten into GM AT LAST.
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-42
Jul 13th, 2009 (6:38 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (6:41 am)Isn’t it quite obvious that when you slap “hybrid” and “fuel efficient” labels onto a car, people will naturally start comparing it with the likes of a Prius. Because 33mpg is not 50mpg (or what ever the Prius gets), the damage is almost immediate. the hybrid Malibu does not live up to peoples expectations of what a hybrid can actually do, so its really just resting on the fact its a more expensive version of the standard Malabu (4 to 5k more expensive) with marginal gains… if you want a hybrid to save of fuel, go get a prius…
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+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (6:43 am)Sounds like a Volt without the plug.
As for the Malibu Hybrid, GM failed to communicate that it had the fuel economy of the 4 cylinder and the performance of the 6 cylinder – THAT is what people would have paid for.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (6:49 am)I am happy to see GM moving in this direction. I want a Volt for my long range commuter. My drive is 41.5 miles one way for work and I shouldn’t have a problem getting a charge at work. My Civic Hybrid has about 105,000 miles on it right now, so 2.5 years from now, I should be at the 150,000 mile mark. Perfect time to get the Volt!
Like I said, I’m happy that GM is looking for Hybrids that are going to deliver superior fuel usage, but I do not want them to lose there V8 engine performance. I really want a Z28 Convertible to go along with my Volt. I think GM can do both and do both with success.
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+7
Jul 13th, 2009 (6:57 am)I see GM focusing on 4 levels of fuel efficiency.
For those with a limited budget, pay ~$2000 for a BAS+ system. For a small car like the Cruze, it will probably yield another 6 mpg in the city, and maybe 2 highway.
Next level will probably be a 2-mode or similar. This will still be for large cars, and will probably be applied to the Malibu, LaCrosse, and SUV’s. A Malibu with this system (4 cyl) could get numbers close to 40/40. Add $5 to 10K.
The third level is the 2nd level with plug-in capability. With up to 20 miles AER, this could effectively double EPA numbers. So a small SUV (like the former Saturn Vue) might get 70 mpg!
For the ultimate, there will be Voltec technology.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (6:57 am)Better late than never I guess. Pretty much all I got to say about that.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (6:58 am)@Xiaowei1 #4
That’s mostly what I’ve always thought. From an engineering perspective the Malibu Hybrid was successful but from a marketing and perception stand point it had fail all over it. Personally I don’t think it should of been branded ‘Hybrid’. They probably would have been better off creating some other ‘eco’ type name for it.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:02 am)MIxed emotions:
1. It’s an interesting development, coming on the heels of yestereday’s discussion.
2. If it in some way — which we may never know — hurts the Voltec program and the timetable for Gen 2 and 3, it will have been another case of short-term thinking interferring with the long-term good. And the long-term good, IMO, is to get these next generations of Voltec technology out the door so GM can:
1. Sell Voltec cars at a profit
2. Diversify its Voltec offerings to include SUVs/Crossovers and other vehicles with “bad” aerodynamics. (A development that will require improvements in batteries that we all asssume are on the way.)
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Jul 13th, 2009 (7:02 am)Mr Peper says “One of the issues with the Malibu hybrid has been that the four cylinder 6 speed transmission Malibu gets 33 MPG on the highway,” he said. ” It has the best fuel economy of any mid-size car out there for a normal gas engine, so it makes it that much tougher to make a hybrid that gets significant better gas mileage than that.”
Mr Peper is giving the normal GM viewpoint on hybrids, that they are just PR.
From the quote, it does not seem Mr Peper’s opinion has changed.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:02 am)It seems obvious to me that people won’t spend a lot of extra money to get a few MPG more. I think GM could have asked me before they started down that path. I try to follow good common sense with these things, and I always have you guys to correct me when I screw up.
So, if I were to purchase a hybrid, it had better do significantly better in the MPG area. I say at least 50% better. The extra cost for the hybrid should
match the gas savings in a reasonable amount of time.
Is this a lot to ask for?
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-3
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:05 am)What completely dumbfounds me is how the Malibu hybrid idea ever made it past the initial internal GM pitch session. When you slap the “hybrid” tag on the tail of a car that’s going to be sitting on the same lot as the non-hybrid version there better be some compelling fuel savings. The fact that it will drive like a 6 cylinder and drink like a 4 cylinder won’t sell that car.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:07 am)Lyle said Peper disclosed to GM-Volt.com that GM is now working to develop an extremely fuel efficient dedicated hybrid besides the Volt.
—————————————-
That’s nice, and I’m glad to hear it.
His statement is pretty foggy as to what or when.
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+5
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:07 am)P.S. I’m curious as to what form this “extremely fuel efficiant hybrid” will take, i.e. a Prius-like synergy drive?
Bring back the rumors about Toyota!!!!
Regardless, I still don’t see parallel hybrid as a long-term solution. Way to complicated. That synergy drive exists at all is a testimony to Toyota’s engineering and manufacturing competence.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:09 am)..people will naturally start comparing it…
——————–
I think the Chevy idea was that people would start buying it, because of the label. (smile)
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:10 am)Just at a glance, it seems like they may be trying the approach of building whatever car someone might want to buy — rather than trying to provide “upgrade path”.
That sounds like a step in the right direction to me!
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+5
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:10 am)Agreed when you said “I still don’t see parallel hybrid as a long-term solution.“
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+4
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:13 am)I don’t think it was ugly. It just blends in with everything else.
I do agree they need to make a sharper looking car that will sell.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:37 am)Nothing was said about a business plan to make a profit on this new hybrid vehicle.
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+6
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:45 am)Ed Peper said: “Consumers are not going to pay for it unless they can get significant better fuel economy,” he said.
What? The extra 2MPG doesnn’t justify the extra $3,950 price tag? Don’t let this guy too close to Mark LaNeve, that is way too much common sense.
—
“I think when we bring out a hybrid, and I think its very important, we’ve got to make sure it has significantly better fuel economy than a non-hybrid,” said Peper.
In a related matter, Mr. Peper also conceeded the car should also have doors and a inside mounted steering wheel. It is also pretty easy to rag on a car/concept that you just canned, I’m sure if you asked him about the Tahoe, Escalade, Aura or Vue, the story would magically change.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (7:53 am)What I would like to see is a design architecture in a hybrid that can de-couple the ICE as in being in Neutral, and, having a removable plate at the final drive so that a well-engineered drive motor can be installed with a matched battery pack and controller/charger.
This, if designed from the start may be a way give that car a “second extended life” in as much as when the typical ICE depreciation sets in, and, the greater portion of the usefulness of the ICE has been utilized, then, the car can be considered
**********************************
CONVERSION FRIENDLY
**********************************
or,
only several years into the ownership of the car, if market costs do come down, then that car would tend to hold more of its value, just because a final-drive-access (to drive gearing) was designed into it.
This may possibly be less invasive to production, yet yield highly promising future potential for buyers if that future develops.
Business Risk to GM might be nicely reduced for something like that.
And, if aftermarket battery suppliers like A123 see that there is substantial public interest in doing these conversions, then, there could be dovetailed interest in producing battery packs that would take the place of the spare tire and part of the trunk area.
(Tires might be the low rolling resistance ” ‘run-flat’-so-who-needs-a-spare” with its extra weight anyways).
There may be design advancement inertia that “spins off” from the Voltec program with the generalized higher- intellectual properties increasingly resident at GM for this type of “conversion-friendliness” architecture to possibly be made available.
But, in order to reduce the chances that business risk for the “tie-up” of GM engineering design person-hours is made viable and justifiable, I recommend that the opportunity for increased casual business relationships be made available to “grass roots” electrical engineers our here in the field (via “TellFritz”).
They can provide a sense of any combination of the following per each and every facet of a possible “convertability” market study (or many, many other aspects of feasibilities) , as conferred from those Electrical Engineers out in the field.
They are, and have been for years, actually been doing the extremely extensive work of these conversions in the first place.
For each design modification-consideration, there may be:
concrete interest,
disinterest,
conditional interest,
low but definite interest,
medium but definite interest,
high interest,
conditional committment,
conditional coordination,
willingness for informally advise
as to their professional preferences,
or, what would be mutually-beneficial
to all, advancement reducing business
risks to drive electrification, by reducing some costs reliably.
Having friendships with field engineers and independent aftermarket sources WILL be highly advantageous for the prevention of misdirected assets.
Pay something immediately-to-start with them for their extremely valuable time. Only two hundred dollars per hour for ten to twelve hours per week will ALWAYS ALWAYS be worth a thousand times the price. (Just send a check in the mail. Yes, I am not kidding. For the first five hours. It’s not a big contracting deal, just do it. Endorsement equals commitment for certificated personnell).
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-1
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:58 am)Chevrolet manger Ed Peper states “It [the Malibu] has the best fuel economy of any mid-size car out there for a normal gas engine, so it makes it that much tougher to make a hybrid that gets significant better gas mileage than that.”
The Hybrid Malibu from what I have read is hardly a hybrid and would not contend for my dollars. I see a market full of cars. if I am in the market for a “hybrid” label, a hybrid would be what I would get. if the Malibu hybrid was an upgrade, it had better be an upgrade to a hybrid. But I would quickly find the Malibu is not what my traditional idea of a hybrid is supposed to be (or be anything close to it).
In fact, the Hybrid Malibu simply tells me – even when it comes to Hybrids, GM can’t make a fuel efficient car (this would detract me from the comment about the Malibu actual having “the best fuel economy of any mid-size car out there for a normal gas engine”. GM should have said it was “eco” friendly or something, but not a hybrid. The idea of trying to sell some fuel efficiencies as a hybrid is simply wrong, and ultimately will produce negative PR – hybrid enthusiasts will make sure of this – http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/chevy-malibu-hybrid.html
I would say honesty is the only thing that can save them at this point. Stop the rhetoric and face facts. The hybrid Malibu did not deserve the label “Hybrid.” It was more efficient, and may have some great engineering inside, but it is not a hybrid.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (7:58 am)“Regardless, I still don’t see parallel hybrid as a long-term solution. Way to complicated. That synergy drive exists at all is a testimony to Toyota’s engineering and manufacturing competence.”
Actually is a simple mechanical solution.. two motors, two inverters, a battery and a simple geared device.. easy to manufacture and reliable, replacing an automatic transmission, the starter and the alternator in a conventional car. It may actually be cheaper to manufacture than a conventional car….The hard part is the design and integration, to balance the power of the motors against the power of the ICE and then tune the whole thing to the weight of the car and desired performance. Toyota probably has sophisticated models and computer simulations to help with this, witness how they fine tuned the 2010 Prius, bigger car, bigger engine, bigger motors, smaller battery and yet they achieve better performance and economy. Toyota has truly mastered that design.
The advantage of the Voltec tech is that it is much easier to design, manufacture and integrate.. the disadvantage is that it will be easy to copy by other manufacturers.
The Voltec tech will be easier to morph into a pure BEV solution, just remove the genset.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:06 am)Good point, but GM really needs to hibridize the large trucks and sedans it sells, before gas gets back up to $4 a gallon.. it attempted to do this with the two-mode transmission but apparently it is horrendously expensive. They should have copied the Honda tech, there you just replace the flywheel on the engine with a thin pancake assist motor.. a relatively inexpensive ($5k??) solution. There is no point to add a $20k system to a vehicle to just achieve a 20% improvement in gas economy.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:08 am)People don’t buy a hybrid for 6 cylinder type performance. Honda proved this with the Accord Hybrid.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:17 am)Duh, GM – the only reason I’m going to pay for the Volt is because the significant savings that it offers. When they came out with their 10% fuel mileage improved hybrid trucks, I was thinking, you’ve got to be kidding. What a waste of time and money. Give me 35%+ and depending on price, I may be more interested.
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+9
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:18 am)The Chevy Malibu is on of the nicest looking sedans on the road today.
It is BMW the has gone over the ugly side. Goofy styling on the 3 series.
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+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:20 am)The Volt’s series design is one that has a lot of conceptual elegance.
I like it and hope it proves to be a commercial success.
That said, it is not clear to me that series is more or less efficient in itself than is the parallel hybrid design with synergy drive. Explain?
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:20 am)“P.S. I’m curious as to what form this “extremely fuel efficiant hybrid” will take, i.e. a Prius-like synergy drive?”
It will be an upgraded Belt-Alternator-Starter system, BAS+, with a stronger electric motor.. not at all like the Prius system.. similar to the Honda system but GM puts the motor in the front of the engine and connected to it by a large belt. Honda places the motor on the back of the engine, replacing the flywheel on a conventional car. The BAS system is probably easier to fit in an existing engine compartment, since it just replaces an alternator with a slightly bigger device. The Honda system goes in-between the engine and the transmission and that may be harder to fit in a front wheel drive car.
The Two-Mode transmission can be described as like having two complete Toyota parallel systems together, combined by several clutches (four clutches I think).. one system is optimized for low speed and the other one for high speed.. a fairly complicated device.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (8:30 am)It is not clear to me if Mr. Peper is talking about the next generation of BAS or a fourth hybrid design. We had the old BAS, canceled right now, the two mode, both front and rear wheel drive versions, and the EREV. I did not understand why the old BAS was not available with the 6 speed transmission. Hopefully the new BAS will be available with the six speed transmission. Beyond that, GM needs something to compete with the Camry Hybrid, and the Ford Fusion. I do not think the new BAS will move the performance up to that level, but it is a possibility.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:33 am)With the work on the Volt almost finished, this seems like a step backward to me…..
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:38 am)Are you an electrical engineer by any chance?
I think, IMO, electrical engineers are attracted to the (electrical) simplicity of Voltec.. mechanical engineer types are more attracted to the mechanical elegance of Toyotas system.. lots of whirling and counter-rotating gears, its not intuitive how it works at all.
Series MAY be less efficient in highway travel due to electrical conversion losses from the generator driving the motor.. this will not be known for sure until GM releases some hard numbers.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:40 am)statik said Mr. Peper also conceeded the car should also have doors and a inside mounted steering wheel.
——————————————-
ho, ho, ho Mr Peper did however note that without windows there would be a weight reduction and no need for air conditioning.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:43 am)From past threads we have learned that Mr Peper speaks for the whole entire Chevy brand, all its cars and trucks, but never any particular car or truck, because after all he has to keep the big picture in mind
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-6
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:44 am)But… but… but… How can this be??? I’ve been assured by so many here that the Volt is superior, that it’s the way of the future, that mere conventional hybrids are inferior, that they are yesterday’s news, obsolete, also-rans…
Seriously, for those of us that thought the Volt was not a good idea, this news is highly amusing.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (8:46 am)The extra cost for the hybrid should
match the gas savings in a reasonable amount of time.
————–
Seems reasonable to me, although I think Chevy has been thinking that the word “hybrid” has value in itself as a prestige label.
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+10
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:46 am)BillR: “The third level is the 2nd level with plug-in capability. With up to 20 miles AER, this could effectively double EPA numbers. So a small SUV (like the former Saturn Vue) might get 70 mpg!”
I agree Bill! ….and we need to remember that GM’s 2-mode plug-in Vue has an extremely-robust CTS-derived V6 as well as TWO 55KW electric motors (approx 74HP each) capable of propelling it at sustained highway speeds. Also, at the same time the plug-in Vue is able to tow 3,500 lbs & haul 5 passengers plus lots of gear its estimated 70 mpg significantly exceeds the mpg of the newest (and much smaller) Prius as well as any other hybrid on the road today.
And GM has already extensively road tested this 2-mode plug-in in several Vue mules. The newly-announced Chevy Equinox crossover CUV, as an example, would be an ideal vehicle to employ this remarkable PHEV drive train.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (8:48 am)“What I would like to see is a design architecture in a hybrid that can de-couple the ICE as in being in Neutral, and, having a removable plate at the final drive so that a well-engineered drive motor can be installed with a matched battery pack and controller/charger.”
That would not be too hard to do, just put the motor in between the transmission output and the wheels.. the motor does not need a clutch at all and the transmission can just dis-engage the ICE as needed. Really easy to do in a RWD vehicle.
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-15
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:51 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:53 am)The mild hybrid Malibu was a crude attempt at offering a hybrid with very little dedicated design. Simply said, they replaced the alternator with an electric motor, larger serpentine belt and a tensioner that worked both ways (motor/alternator). The results were abysmal as reflected in the ecconomy produced.
Good observation #19
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-8
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:53 am)It about time. That ugly Malibu hybrid was not worth the extra cost. GM needs to look at Honda and Toyota to get some clues about how to make an efficient vehicle.
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-4
Jul 13th, 2009 (8:56 am)Nor did GM bother to make the hybrid as good as possible. In spite of the $3900 surcharge on their hybrid, it still has the antiquated 4-speed transmission. If they actually cared about performance and fuel economy, they’d have put the 6-speed into the hybrid.
GM believes it’s just greenwashing and not worth real investment.
It will be extremely interesting to see how GM does a purpose-built hybrid.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (9:06 am)Except it didn’t have the performance of the 6 cylinder. It had the normal 4-banger and an extra few hp from an oversized starter motor.
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+4
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:10 am)______________________________________________________
Kill BAS+
Replace it w/ Volt Basic (the Chevy Voltec power train but with much smaller capacity t-battery & sans plug).
KISS
______________________________________________________
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Jul 13th, 2009 (9:11 am)They would have to be crazy to have 4 different hybrid designs in the market at the same time.. the BAS+ is perfectly fine, you could always make the ice an Atkinson cycle and boost mileage that way.. not an expensive conversion. Can anyone get a Malibu sized hybrid past 40 mpg?
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:23 am)Sidenote: If you are like me, and don’t value your time online…then hop on over to GM Fastlane at 2PM EST, where Bob Lutz will attempt to explain why GM has given him the keys to the company in a 1 hour ‘webchat’:
———-
From Fastlane:
“Bob Lutz will host a Webchat right here on Fastlane Monday, July 13, from 2:00 to 3:00 p.m. EDT to answer questions about his new role as GM vice chairman responsible for all creative elements of products and customer relationships. Lutz will oversee GM’s brands, marketing, advertising and communications…and will also empty the trash cans at night before he leaves” (I may have added a sentence in there…can you find it?)
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/07/webchat_bob_lutz_on_reaching_customers_in_his_new_role.html
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:34 am)While we’re discussing new hybrids, see Lyle’s other site (link below) showing Toyota’s announcement of their Lexus 250h 4-door sedan, for which they already have 1,500 pre-orders —to be sold starting late this summer only in Japan. The car’s silhoutte looks remarkably like that of a Volt (it’s FAR better looking than a Prius)!
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1022139_toyota-takes-1500-pre-orders-for-lexus-hs-hybrid-in-japan
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:36 am)IMO GM certainly should not look at Prius or Insight for any styling inspiration. If Malibu is “ugly”, for context would insert “butt” in front of “ugly” when describing the ovoid roller skate Prius. Of course if one sees beauty in the function alone, well, that is other than styling.
Ah yes, automotive styling and personal preference. Almost as good at instigating heated discussions as baseball (or pick your favorite sport) and/or politics.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (9:39 am)So GM will now build a Prius fighter? Tacit admission that the Volt will be too expensive for the market share GM wants? An attempt to keep Toyota from chewing away the Volt market by doing less expensive 15,20, 30 AER cars?
Is GM going to attrit their own market for the Volt?
The new GM is looking Brilliant!!
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+7
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:49 am)The reason to buy the Volt is not to save money but rather to use as little Gasoline as posible and in fact none for most customers daily driving and that includes me.
Allowing the oil industry to have noose around our necks may cost justifiable to you but not to me.
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+6
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:51 am)Fact: Even the Toyota Camry (that uses the HSD) doesn’t sell well.
When people have a comparison model and the only difference is a small tag on the trunk that says, “Hybrid” and a huge price difference they don’t feel the value.
The Prius is only a hybrid and thus they get the green feel. So, GM building a stand-alone hybrid model is the right way to go. Or is it?
Second, the GM mild hybrid is pathetic. If that gets me some negative votes, so be it. It was a half-assed attempt.
The new GM hybrid technology better be very close to the performance of the HSD or what’s the point? Since I think this might be very hard to achieve (Prius is in the third iteration of the design) perhaps they should just stick with plug-ins, Voltec and BEVs.
Since in 5 years the world will know we have reached peak oil, we won’t thinking of hybrids (even they will use too much fuel) I think it’s a waste of time and resources.
Go forward, not backwards. The hybrid-only era is owned by Toyota. let’s give them a nod and vow to beat them in the next era – the plug-in era. Game on.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:52 am)The Ford Fusion is just a little bigger than the Malibu and gets 41 city.
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+4
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:54 am)Right.
For non-plug-ins, it’s the mileage that counts. A hybrid that only gets 30 MPG won’t be popular.
For plug-ins, it’s the electric range that counts. A plug-in that only gets 10 miles of electric assist won’t be popular.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:55 am)Let’s face it — regular ICE cars that are turned into hybrids do not catch the average consumer’s attantion. Honda has had the same problem with its Civic and Accord hybrids — and that’s why they brought the Insight back. If a car needs a hybrid badge in order for people to recognize it as a hybrid, it’s not going to sell.
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-1
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:57 am)Sargent Pepper’s Lonely Heart’s Club Band! LOL! I say, you had the Vue up and running but pulled the plug, so to speak. And as StatiK noted in other matters, GM’s including inside steering and doors is a stroke of better engineering. Amazing! Put a spare tire on an outside fender or both fenders!
Seems that this car should include a plug in mode for a smaller than Volt type battery that would allow for some miles (7) on electric up to 45 mph and powerful assist to get the ICE neatly up to speed. Kind of like a plug in Prius but much more and yet far less costly than a VOLT.
Oh, add windows that can be lowered as the Lads like to hang their doggie heads out! Sadly they are still on a slow boat from China.
Regards!——-Higgins PS: Carcus1 gin and tonic will never be the same!
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:58 am)You may believe putting the future of GM in one idea. Not me I think they need to explore all options and build competitive cars for all buyers.
I firmly believe Toyota is working a hard and fast as posible to develope a E-REV so as not to be left behind if it is vastly superior to their design s most think it will be.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (9:59 am)Stop whining – GM tried to give consumers a less expensive hybrid option at a lower price point, and get this to market as quickly as possible. If Toyota cared about their customers, they wouldn’t make truck frames that rust to the point of collapse in 2 years.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:06 am)Yes I agree – is the Voltec/EREV design superior to a hybrid? If yes, why invest millions/billions in an inferior model?
I guess new GM makes the same mistakes as old GM… no clear model/technology politics…
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-1
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:13 am)Why? Why? Why GM going to put so many resources toward a new form of hybird? extreme hybrid? Come on. GM already have an EXTREME HYBRID which is a NON PLUG-IN Volt with a small cheap rechargeable battery (1~5 mile will be fine). they can sell million of these NON PLUG-IN Volt. the NON PLUG-IN Volt will beat any form of HYBRID including Prius. Come on NEW GM!!!!! Don’t follow the leader, be the leader.
How much will a NON PLUG-IN Volt cost? -$16.000 battery = AFFORDABLE.
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+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:14 am)I don’t think this will hurt Volt sales. IMHO, the Volt will still be the clear winner for those who can afford it. But obviously most people can’t afford it, and GM wants something to sell to the mainstream hybrid buyer.
At some point, hopefully, GM will get the price of the Volt down to the point where they will render their own “new” hybrid obsolete. But they need something to sell in the meantime.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:16 am)>> the Lads
>> they are still on a slow boat
By any chance, they wouldn’t be traveling on one of these, would they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCVP
After all, you’re Higgins, and 9 knots isn’t very fast.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:17 am)Right, After the carpocalype, there are only around 25,000 Camry hybrids sold per year, one trim in a vehicle that sells around 300,000 copies per year. What an unpopular vehicle.
/sarcasm off
The reason that the Prius works for Toyota as a dedicated vehicle is that is has a high enough volume (greater than 100,000 per year).
GM better cough up something as popular if it wants to succeed at the end game (electric drive). This requires a desirable (word of mouth rules) fuel efficient hybrid and effective marketing of it as a mainstream vehicle, neither of which has been GM forte to date. Sure, as GM set it up with their mild and monster SUV/PU Truck hybrids, hybrids were PR only for GM, and negative PR at that.
Now if GM had the will and leadership skills to produce highly efficient vehicles with electric drive and market them for mainstream acceptability and desireability, that might change.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:17 am)Many here are talking about the $7,500 tax credit for cars like the Volt, but didn’t I remember reading somewhere that after tax credits, the Malibu hybrid was only about $500-$1000 more, so the payoff was rather quick?
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:19 am)Can you talk about what the all electric range (if it has one) happens to be these days?
If all of those stats are true (and make it to a production vehicle), it might be the ideal all-around family vehicle. It could probably tow away and replace everything in my driveway, including the Prius!
But, the engineering adage “you can make tradeoffs or throw money at the problem” must still apply… Where are the tradeoffs? Surely that 70mpg applies when the batteries are fully charged from the plug? (A vehicle that could get me a few miles to work and back on batteries but would get 25mpg when towing a trailer great.)
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:19 am)Right.
The main attributes that set the Volt apart are these:
1) 40 miles all-electric range.
2) the ability to run on gas or E85 after that.
If a parallel (a.k.a. full, strong, series-parallel, etc.) hybrid could do that, it would compete well against the Volt. The series vs. parallel debate is meaningless to me. If the Volt Gen 2 was a parallel hybrid, but still had 40 miles AER, I wouldn’t care.
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+6
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:21 am)Toyota wouldn’t have built a large gas hog pickup if they cared that much about the environment, either.
Greenwashing!
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:24 am)Honda produces weak hybrids, as the gas engine never shuts up and the electric motors are tiny and underpowered. However, with the addition of a semi-powerful electric motor for some semi-decent electric drive torque, their less than a year away CR-Z sports hybrid may change that. For folks who want the V6 type punch of the popular but limited sales area Nissan Altima hybrid (which I think kinda seats, feels and drives kinda like a Dodge Charger V6 (aggressive acceleration, beefy and likes to bellow (I dislike the bellow))), it may become the best game in town for a little while.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:26 am)Sure, that explains why no Nissan Altima hybrids sell, even though they have a highly limited sales area.
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+7
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:27 am)Unfortunately, when GM hybridized their large trucks, people demonized GM. They said it was a waste of money, even though hybridizing a large vehicle saves more gas and money than a small vehicle.
If you have a 50% coupon for any restaurant, wouldn’t it make sense to use it towards cutting down the bill of a more expensive meal? The same goes with hybridizing a vehicle with a large gas bill.
Check out: http://www.mpgillusion.com/
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:28 am)Charging a premium for a hybrid version of a standard car didn’t work for the Camry hybrid or the Accord hybrid or the Civic hybrid. It was a disaster for the Malibu, probably because the mpg differential was so small. I’m just not sure what took everyone so long to figure this out. It’s probably because the lead times are so long that it’s hard to process new information in a timely way and switch courses.
A separate hybrid model is probably necessary for learning purposes but quite unexciting. Hopefully it will be a CUV or something — a Prius competitor seems like an also ran, especially when the Insight is already out there and given the fact that the Volt is such a better Prius than the Prius.
Seems like the mild hybrid stuff should simply become standard as a way to meet CAFE.
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+5
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:31 am)From what Peper said, it seems that some in GM may have finally learned their lesson and listened to the “buying” public. You cannot sell any type of hybrid and charge more money for it unless there is a significant gain in mileage. And I do mean significant gain. It needs to take the 33 MPG Malibu up to around 45 – 48 MPG to be considered significant. That’s about a 50% increase. And that may not be enough to be competitive. IMO.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:34 am)I am in tears laughing! Made the day Mike-o-Matic. The Lads would be sick for ever on such a trip.
I recall the time that Magnum did a re-enactment and used a Higgins boat. You see, the craft had a most choppy ride and Magnum was seasick for sometime. At least he was not being shot at save for the one bullet from a sniper. That is another story…
Fine Regards!—Higgins
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:35 am)Mostly, I agree. But I think that a 10 MPC range could be successful depending on cost and other factors. Ten miles is not bad for a lot of people, but I do agree that the more MPC you can attain within a given cost structure, the more successful the vehicle will be. The Volt certainly hits the “sweet” spot and gets the “minimum” MPC needed to be acceptable. Hopefully GM is promising low and will deliver higher MPC at the beginning of life for the battery. That would be great.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:37 am)I’d agree with you on the levels for fuel efficiency. There is probably a marketing purpose attached to each level as well:
1. Mild hybrid on many vehicles for the purpose of meeting CAFE.
2. Strong hybrid on larger vehicles for the purpose of meeting CAFE and enticing buyers who are concerned about their green creed.
3. Plug in technology for the purpose of having a halo green creed CUV.
4. Volt tech for the purpose of having a halo green creed vehicle.
So at this point two are for show, one is for show and CAFE, and one is strictly for CAFE. The problem is that they are all very pricey alternatives. GM really needs to get the mild hybrid costs down to under a $1000 in order to have it make an impact.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:38 am)>> laughing!
Well, for this I am glad. You make me laugh all the dang time!!
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:39 am)Isn’t the Volt really a hybrid sedan too? Last I checked it runs on electricity and gas.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:40 am)We can all agree that GM made some bad decisions in relation to their “hybrid” offerings. I do not understand them not offering the six-speed transmission in the Malibu Hybrid, if that is correct. GM should never have even offered a “hybrid” that did not offer significant mileage gains over a full ICE vehicle. Just a waste of money and bad PR at the same time.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:42 am)“The 2009 4-cylinder Malibu has an EPA rating of 22 MPG city | 33 MPG hwy. The 2009 Malibu hybrid gets 26 MPG city | 34 MPG highway. It uses GM’s first generation mild belt-alternator-started hybrid system.”
Aw maaaannn….
With those numbers GM needs to dump that tech. What a waste. Look at those numbers, they suck a$$. Did they NOT see the numbers Toy and Honda put out? I mean it’s slapped right there on the window at the dealers/internet.
Please tell me they are not going to seriously spend $$$ on this BAShit.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:43 am)I agree but it is probably much too early for us to expect some concrete information. I hope when he said “an extremely fuel efficient dedicated hybrid besides the Volt” he was talking about a completely separate model line from the Malibu, Impala, Volt, etc. I think a dedicated hybrid line is what GM needs to produce. Make it a distinctive line with a distinctive look and one that gives superior mileage to the Ford Fusion and rivals the Prius (bettering the Prius would be outstanding).
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:43 am)Ideally, GM’s new dedicated hybrid should somehow reinforce or help it’s sibling Voltec technology along. It’s hard to see how a belt-driven anything would do that.
Somewhat in the arena of Herm’s suggestion, my idea would use the same front-end that the Volt has; or the same drive motor, controller and transaxle at least.
In the dedicated hybrid, the engine would be turned north-south and a simplified automatic would engage a top gear somewhere above 40 – 50 mph. All slower speeds would be handled by the Voltec-derived system, with regeneration.
The direct-couple to RWD would only work at what one might consider highway speed (where rear-powered wheels provide the best over-the-road performance, and where electric drive may have weaknesses as noted earlier).
Instead of the LG pack, a higher energy-dense “power” battery pack would be used (like the Hitachi or whatever batteries they recently contracted for use in hybrids?) and there would be no plug.
It’s interesting to note that the front wheels could still regeneratively slow such a hybrid even from highway speeds, so this would tend to keep the high-energy ’storage-bucket’ topped up on a road trip.
In town, the transmission to the rear wheels would likely never engage, and the car would, to all intents and purposes, be a Volt in extended-range mode.
The aftermarket conversion market could work within this architecture pretty easily, assuming better batteries are developed; and might only require space conversion for additional cells, a charger, and new firmware.
By using common elements with Voltec, parts volume would increase with reduced overall costs for both programs (though not for batteries, I admit).
This may be the only Volt-derived way to develop a larger vehicle which can tow moderately-sized trailers, in the near term anyway.
Maybe this is exactly what you guys were describing, and I just didn’t “get” it.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:44 am)It’s not a CVT (the media gets this wrong ALL the time), you know. The media merely says this all the time for comparison to older applied technologies because a good CVT also lacks shifting pauses and jerks.
It uses a sun planetary gear system with a power split, so the Prius only drives in a single gear. The Prius is thus only and always in Top Gear (to be true to its name, that show should only test vehicles in their top gear – I’d love to hear them continually stall the full gassers).
This is the most complicated, least clear explanation of the Prius drivetrain that I could find:
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_24/
It’s extremely intuitive – one gear assisted by the electric motor, which has max torque at 0 rpm, at the low end to make up for low torque at the low end from a gas engine in only one top gear. Run the engine in an efficient timing cycle using optimal rpms for extra double hapiness efficiency.
The electric motor also provides near linear acceleration at low speeds, with no pauses and jerks from shifting, and non-mechanical regenerative braking slowing which makes for much more controlled and safer stops and starts in poor road conditions, once the driver bothers to take advantage of the intrinsic superiorties of electric drive and regenerative braking.
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+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:46 am)What is it with the “click to show comment” mess? As of this moment I will no longer click to see someone’s comments. If you can’t produce the comment out in the “clear” forget about commenting. That’s my opinion and I am sticking to it.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (10:50 am)Of it’s immediate competition, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima and Ford Fusion, the Malibu beats them all hands down in the looks department! However, there is room for improvement and that can be said for 90+% of the cars being sold now.
It’s going to get tougher and tougher to make good looking cars with so much priority on wind tunnel results. For fans of the automobile, we are in for a dark age. I don’t see a automotive renaissance until BEVs finally have a energy storage device that can compete head to head with gasoline in price and performance.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:50 am)“At some point, hopefully, GM will get the price of the Volt down”
GM won’t be able to achieve this for another 6-8 years. To do this in less time they would have to dumb down AER to like 10 miles. Why are they even considering this BAShit hybrid tech? I dunno. Affordability is the key here and at $40K it is no where close to affordable. If/when a PHEV Prius comes out with a 10 AER at below $30K it’s a Volt Killer in my book. Sure 10 sounds like crap but there are more folks that have a plug @ work and one @ home than there are folks who can afford a $40K car.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:52 am)The “label” just wasn’t enough, was it? Most people looking for a hybrid naturally compared the Malibu Hybrid to the Prius and the Malibu Hybrid came out losing. There just isn’t any comparison. Never was and never coul be. And the idiots at GM who thought the public would buy based on a lablel have been proven not only idiots but stupid ones at that. Way to go GM. I hope you have learned your lesson. If not, we are ready to teach you so more. Just bring out another “label” only vehicle and watch the “fur” fiy. I wish you luck, but it had better be distinctive and significant as a hybrid vehicle. That or you risk losing once more.
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+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (10:53 am)I agree with what you said here. When I think of a dedicated true hybrid for GM, I’m picturing a car with the handsome attractiveness of a new Malibu, with mpg in the high 40’s, and priced to run neck and neck with Ford’s Fusion Hybrid. That seems reasonable to me. Whether they strive to do this with a variation of the Cruze or one on the Malibu platform, they need to get it right this time. It’s gotta be authentic, full blown, tried and true hybrid, or forget about it all together. I’m hoping they get it right.
Ford seems to be getting lots of good press for the Fusion Hybrid, so maybe there’s hope for GM too. (fingers crossed).
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:00 am)I just don’t understand why the 2-mode hybrid transmission is so much more expensive than the HSD method Toyota uses. You would think with the development cost being shared by GM, Chrysler and BMW (wasn’t it?) the cost would be much less than the extra sticker price for a 2-mode hybrid vehicle that GM offers. Just doesn’t make sense. Must be something we are missing.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:01 am)But only electicity for the drive wheels.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:03 am)Right. Another example of a “label” being applied without success. Even the Civic Hybrid suffers from low sales. With the Honda Insight on the market and a new, smaller hybrid coming to the market, I suspect the Civic Hybrid will be discontinued. Hybrids must be a stand-alone brand to be success, IMO. That or offer much improved mileage over its ICE siblings and that hasn’t been accomplished very well, except with the Civic to some degree.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:04 am)This might make the winning and not-so-much current hybrid system choices obvious, if you consider a break point of 500 vehicles per month, below which I’d call it non-mainstream (sorry, Telsa Roadster and other e manufacturers to date):
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-sales-dashboard/june-2009-dashboard.html
Winners:
1. Full or strong assisting electric drive.
2. Mainstream style (yes, that includes the Prius) and functionality sedans and small SUVS.
3. Midprice, low end luxury or power apps. This argues for getting a basic options and vanilla (most popular i.c. flavor on the planet) but nicely styled high quality fit and finish quiet Cadillac Converj out there ASAP.
No-so-much:
1. Not electric drive (beefy belt stop/start).
2. Supersized SUVs and trucks.
3. Blingiest gansta models.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:05 am)I would far sooner see a hybrid run with Super Capacitors and no batteries it just makes more sense . The capacitors are easily charged up from regenerative breaking , and the Gen-Set , they cost less than batteries , are good for over a million cycles and they are not subject to cold extreme temperatures like batteries . I want to get my fuel from the gas station , not from the end of an extension cord .
A short burst of power would get the vehicle up to highway cruising speed and the Gen-Set would maintain that speed while also charging the capacitors for passing or long hills .
Size the gen-set to maintain a speed of 70 mph with the smallest possible four cylinder high compression engine with direct injection that will run on NG , Propane , and gasoline and make it a series hybrid .
Slowing down also instantly captures the regenerative energy for the next start from stop .
Design the cars the right way , use Super Capacitors not batteries in Hybrid vehicles .
If I wanted to live for my car I would get a plug-in extended range car or an electric car .
I see a car as a transportation thing , not something I am dedicated to , but it has to look decent and reflect the cost I am paying for the darned thing too . The Volt looks cheap and like most of the other Chevys .
The technology is great , but the image sucks . Put the Converj front end on the Volt and you will have something that will sell , with style and class .
In my opinion if you continue with selling the current styled Volt as we know it , you are asking to fail as a company . The Volt should be the Converj and the high mileage hybrid should be the Volt without batteries that would get over 70 miles per gallon .
Put the batteries in Pure Electric Vehicles and plug them in all you want to overcome your range anxiety .
All Hybrid vehicles should be Series type as well , much simpler and doesn’t cost as much as parallel .
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:07 am)We hardly never hear anything about the Nissan Altima Hybrid. I don’t know anything about it. Does it offer much improved mileage for the extra cost? Or is it like the Malibu, Camry, Civic and Accord hybrids? Mild and expensive for what you get for the money.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:08 am)sgilson,
What kind of mileage are you getting with your Civic Hybrid? And is it worth the extra cost?
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:10 am)Yes, but the problem is we have no idea about the MPG on ICE mode on the Volt. If it has a good mileage, it wins. Else, only plug-in mode is the added-value in terms of economicity and ecology, at least for gen1.
Hope we get those numbers soon
Cheers
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-5
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:10 am)The Prissy Troll strikes again…..
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:11 am)Technically you are right on both.
It is Hybrid….
It is ALL electric….
The petrol engine electric generator set fires up after 40miles of using the battery.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:11 am)Does anyone recall GM’s first ultra-light hybrid for full-size Silverados and the like? It was based on a 36V lead acid battery, and placed a direct-drive starter motor/generator at the back of the engine. The idea was that you’d get some regeneration when stopping, the engine would be switched off instead of idling, and the direct-drive motor would start the warm engine again in a quarter turn of the shaft. The whole thing would have saved only a mpg or so.
The only reason I bring it up here is to recall some of GM’s rationale at the time. I recall hearing something about saving more gas overall with minor improvements to larger engines than is saved with larger improvements to smaller engines.
The problem with this thinking was that there was little to nothing left over for the poor sap who was going to pay for it. Buyers wanted a real advantage which benefited their gas tank, not some amorphous, conceptual national gas tank (this does not include those who purchased the early Prius and Insight for environmental reasons; better gas mileage was largely a side-benefit from this point of view).
I think that perhaps it was something of this mindset which found it “OK” to make a Malibu “hybrid” that was only modestly better at wringing miles from a gallon of gas than a “base” version.
Let’s hope that GM can chuck out this dusty old mental-furniture; and make a Fusion-beater, if not a Prius-beater.
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+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:12 am)When I picture a “Hybrid” I see MPG over 40 miles.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:15 am)BillR,
If what you say is true, the only one that is worth doing is the last one – the Saturn Vue plug-in type version. Mild hybrids that cost around $2,000 and delivers at best 2 MPG highway mileage over the ICE only version is not worth the cost and should be shunned. And they will be. As far as the second choice, I think 40/40 would be good as long as the additional cost is held as low as possible. Probably around $2,500 to $3,000 extra. Any more than that and it becomes dicey as a successful hybrid labeled vehicle.
Choice number three is the only one GM should consider. IMO.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:18 am)Based on this extremely limited criteria, the Volt is indeed, technically, a hybrid. Where you run into trouble is when you realize that it can run on electricity alone for much of it’s operating life; something you cannot say for anything else which matches that criteria.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:21 am)Absolutely correct, nasaman. I hope GM does come out with a version of the Saturn Vue for the Cadillac, Chevrolet and Buick lines. GMC, maybe. I am still of the opinion that GM should have rolled the GMC brand into Chevrolet or rolled the Chevy truck line into the GMC line and limited it to “trucks”.
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+4
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:25 am)Why is everybody bitching about trucks here? So what if Toyota (or Dodge, GM, Ford, Nissan) build trucks. Despite what you may think, trucks are NEEDED. If you live in a house it was most likely built by men (and women) who are independent contractors who drive,,,,, TRUCKS. You can’t put a table saw in the back of a Prius. Wake up folks.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:32 am)Nice catch. Priceless.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:36 am)I agree the Prius is a popular car because it is a stand alone Hybrid model. When you buy a Prius, you aren’t buying it so much to save gas or money as to say ‘Look at me, I’m a tree hugger’. That’s why it sells and that’s why all hybrid models based on conventional cars (Toyota Camry, Honda Civic, Chevy and Saturn models, the upcoming Ford Fusion), won’t, at least not in the numbers the Prius does.
The real question is, did the Prius saturate the market or is there room for more dedicated hybrids? Because there is no longer a backlog of the Prius, the question arises, ‘If there are people who want a hybrid but aren’t buying a Prius, what are they waiting for’.
1: The Prius doesn’t suit their needs.
2: The car buyer is a customer of 1 company and it isn’t Toyota.
3: Or maybe, just maybe, there is no major market for Hybrids beyond what is currently offered.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:44 am)It’s about getting V6 performance with V4 fuel economy, not vastly improved mileage. It makes 361 foot pounds of torque (which is higher than the new Charger Hemi V8, by the way), of which 199 foot pounds of torque are available at 0 rmp. It’s certainly not mild feeling, though it does feel hefty and solid. Punchy, with a little crude and raw power is more how I would describe it. I would compare its overall interior feel and vehicle performance around town to a Dodge Charger V6, not to a Malibu, Camry, Civic or Accord hybrid.
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-1
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:48 am)if GM wants to compete with hybrid vehicles….beat the TOP DOG of hybrid vehicles first (PRIUS)….you offer price over it ,you lose, price just under it, you still lose, see HONDA INSIGHT….
GM should compete in other level like VOLTEC SYSTEMS where they are considered the TOP DOG instead of competing with others that they are definitely are going to lose badly…
if they believe in Voltec system so much…..focus on it!!!!!!
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (11:57 am)The Ford Escape seems to have accomplished it pretty well:
4 cyl FWD Manual trans 22 city/28 hwy 171hp@6000rpm, 171 ft-lb torque@4500rpm
4 cyl FWD Auto trans 20 city/28 hwy same as above
6 cyl FWD Auto trans 18 city/26 hwy 240hp@6550rpm, 223ft-lb torque@4300rpm
Hybrid:
4 cyl FWD Auto trans 34city/31hwy ICE 153hp@6000rpm + electric motor 94hp@5000rpm for total hp of about 247, so just about the hp of the 6 cyl with much better fuel economy. Torque figures only given for the ICE at 136 ft-lb@4500rpm so I’m not sure what the total torque is with the electric motor included although it does seem to accelerate like the 6 cyl.
I do agree that a dedicated model is probably the better way to go though.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (11:58 am)A Dodge Charger that can actually go around corners, that is. The Altima hybrid actually feels to me like they stuck parts of at least three different other European and American vehicles together. I look forward to other posters’ thoughtful perceptions of it.
My experience with the Altima hybrid is from a long term rental in a high population density area (city and big suburbs) with a lot of agricultural area touring included.
I got 38.1 mpg on it. compared to the EPA 22 mixed mpg on the V6 non-hybrid.
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+3
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:04 pm)The Chevy Volt’s All Electric Range (AER) Will be 40 Miles Both at Beginning and End of Life
http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/30/the-chevy-volts-all-electric-range-aer-will-be-40-miles-both-at-beginning-and-end-of-life/
GM says they will play with the points at which the charger shuts off and the ICE turns on in order to maintain 8kWh of usable battery over the life of the car. Here’s an example of how that might happen:
VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) ……… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at ……… 80% ….. 82% ……… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ……………. 30% ….. 27% ……… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh ……………….. 8 …….. 8 …………. 8 …………. 8
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Jul 13th, 2009 (12:08 pm)DonC said Seems like the mild hybrid stuff should simply become standard as a way to meet CAFE.
———-
Except that mild hybrid does not give a big enough kick to meet the new CAFE, insofar as I understand the new CAFE (which is not very well).
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Jul 13th, 2009 (12:11 pm)At least some of the time, the name GM gives the car you describe is “Volt”
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Jul 13th, 2009 (12:11 pm)I think this is Lyle’s doing. The new software he is using for the site let’s him automatically hide all comments with a worse than -10 score.
I had the same opinion you as you until I started asking how are they hiding their own comments. This leads to a better question: could Lyle let us use this power?. Imagine next to the reply button is a ‘hide comment’ button. So we could hide any message we chose. If this was stored in the temp directory so the next time visit those same messages are still hidden. This would fix the only real complaint with the new style; we could hide the messages we have already read and find new messages easier.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (12:12 pm)“click to comment” shows up when the net negative votes exceeds 10.
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+2
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:14 pm)solo –> to me it is better to say that being seen as green is one of the reasons people buy a Prius, along with its strengths as a good car. I agree that the styling has to be more distinctive than a label to get this boost.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Voltec is superior and I don’t see the point of going away from that.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:20 pm)“I think that a 10 MPC range could be successful depending on cost and other factors. Ten miles is not bad for a lot of people, ”
Actually, I don’t think it works like that, psychologically. The Mileage numbers are more of an absolute. A car needs to be over 45MPG to be exciting to greenheads. Period. Because there are other cars (can you say Prius?) that do make that number or better. Psychologically, it’s analogous to the old selling points of top speed, H.P., or acceleration number. A higher number, as reported by auto magazines, would direct 70% of the customers to one car over another.
Simply building a hybrid version that gets 10% higher mileage than it’s non-hybrid brother is completely irrelevant if that higher mileage ends up at, say, 36 MPG. Get it? that number has allready been passed by other vehicles. It’s not exciting. It doesn’t impress anybody.
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-4
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:25 pm)It about time you silly GM make a good hybrid for the masses. The Volt is too pricey and will remain a niche vehicle. Nice to see your government unload your massive self-induced drunken debt. Now maybe you can successfully compete with the Toyota, Nissan and Honda automotive engineering leadership. Welcome back to the race. It about time.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:33 pm)““I think when we bring out a hybrid, and I think its very important, we’ve got to make sure it has significantly better fuel economy than a non-hybrid,” said Peper.”
Duh! The bozos who didn’t already know this should be part of the white-collar GM layoffs. A lot of $ wasted. I’m not even in the car biz and I knew it. My heart just sank when I’d read a couple mpg improvement for a couple grand.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:33 pm)BMW has been working on this approach for years but has yet to come out with anything so perhaps it is not as straightforward as it sounds.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:42 pm)If i could get a 20 mile all electric 2-mode plug in “vue” Equinox and the I would also purchase a Converj/Volt and I would be set for driving 95% gas free for the rest of my days – if the car lasts 50+ years – ok I’ll be buyibng another one or two
Unless the pricepoint for a hybrid is low I don’t see the return of buying a hybrid – even a Prius – I would rather buy a small electric only go cart – the MIEV? Chevy Spark?
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Jul 13th, 2009 (12:43 pm)With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Prius ………………… 228
CUV PHEV-10 ……… 287
CUV Hybrid .………… 380
Honda Civic ………… 393
The difference between the CUV Hybrid and CUV PHEV-10 is 93 gallons per year. If gas goes back up to $4/gallon, that would be $3720 over 10 years. The plug-in option will probably cost about that much extra, so the total cost is a wash.
Now let’s compare the Volt to a Honda Civic. A comparably equipped Honda Civic (LX w/ automatic transmission) costs around $18K and gets 29 MPG. With a typical driving pattern, the Volt will save 356 gallons per year over the Civic. If gas goes back up to $4/gallon, you would save $14K in gas over 10 years. The Volt will cost around $30K after rebates, so that puts the total cost of the Volt around $2000 less than the Civic.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (12:49 pm)It also is far better looking than a Volt too .
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Jul 13th, 2009 (12:56 pm)+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (1:01 pm)I agree, which is why they should stick with plug-in hybrid and maybe a no plug version of the Volt.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (1:25 pm)In other news, GM has pulled their gay Camaro marketing campaign after all the controversy.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Makes you wonder, if they try marketing Camaros to the gay communinity, who will they market the Volt to?
http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2009/07/08/gm-tries-to-pitch-camaro-to-gay-men.aspx
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Jul 13th, 2009 (1:28 pm)Yes, yes. Good points, all. I do sort of remember some of that being posted by you in the past. Glad you did it again. All of the listed vehicles are better than having a full ICE only vehicle. That makes them all winners, in my book.
Thanks for the battery life chart. Interesting.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (1:33 pm)-5
Jul 13th, 2009 (1:34 pm)-5
Jul 13th, 2009 (1:35 pm)
Jul 13th, 2009 (1:35 pm)Possibly. Maybe a different model under the Volt name plate? I just wonder if the Volt is a single name plate vehicle. I would assume so.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (1:36 pm)Keith ,
I agree with what you are saying 100% . If GM wants to run a profitable business then they had better consider the ability of the people to get approved financing of the products they are going to sell. The Converj group of buyers wont have any trouble with the $40,000 price maybe even $50,000 but the average buyer won’t be able to spring for $40,000 to buy a car , nor would they want to.
I get the feeling that you know much more about hybrid vehicle design than you are telling here , maybe you could enlighten us.
You are right , hybrid vehicles do not need any more than one battery and can work very well using capacitors. It is in the physics of how it is done.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (1:37 pm)
Jul 13th, 2009 (1:38 pm)Maybe so, but I thought I had seen comments shown this way with out the negative comment being anything but zero when I clicked on it. Maybe I did not pay as much attention to that detail, but I will in the future. Thanks.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (1:46 pm)In October when I was car shopping one of the primary reasons I did not purchase a Prius for myself was that it was made by Toyota and I like the Honda Accord better because it was made by Honda. I naturally like the Honda brand better than the Toyota brand. I have backed out of two purchases of Toyota vehicles to purchase a 1995 Honda Accord over the 1995 Camry and now the 2009 Honda Accord over a 2009 Prius. I just could not bring myself to purchase a Toyota over a Honda. Now, that may not be true in the future when it comes time to purchase a new vehicle for my wife. A Prius for her would be fine.
Edited: Another reason for not purchasing the Prius was I knew the 2010 model was coming out this spring and was going to be a good update over the 2009 Prius. I just did not want to wait for the 2010 Prius. I needed to get a new vehicle and move ahead. The Accord was the better decision (for me).
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Jul 13th, 2009 (1:51 pm)I agree with you and Mike_FL #9 and Dr.. Science at 21.
Seems to me the Eco tag would have more appropriate from a marketing standpoint than using hybrid, starting an implied competition with the Prius or stretching it a bit, even the Civic hybrid.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (1:53 pm)Simple in concept doesn’t mean simple on the road.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (1:59 pm)Yes, the Ford Escape Hybrid does good. Problem is two fold for it. One – it cost about $35,000 and two – it is hard to find one at a dealer. Other than that, it is a good start for Ford and I wish them luck with it. Ford says they are going to add a plug to the Escape and increase its MPC under EV mode. Great, but at what cost? I think GM has a much better solution with the Saturn Vue plug-in if only they would go ahead and release it under the Buick or Chevrolet name plant. Git ‘er done, GM!!!!
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:01 pm)“The Volt will cost around $30K after rebates, so that puts the total cost of the Volt around $2000 less than the Civic.”
but those rebates wont be around forever.. hopefully GM will be able to bring the cost down quickly.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:02 pm)Why didn’t Chevy do a BASF system and take out the flywheel too!
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:03 pm)Someone asked Bob about global warming, lol. And hejust couldn’t resist turning the screw a bit more, lol:
Question:
Any plans to either filter your comments or perhaps even support the green movement, since you’ve made such harsh comments against the concept of Global Warming, which upset a lot of people?
Answer:
“I obviously won’t go out of my way to upset people but since i have a tendency to speak my mind i will occasionally unwittingly do so…My personal opinion on global warming has nothing to do with my professional performance. By the way we just had the coldest June on record in the East, and are in the middle of the coldest July. “
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:04 pm)From Fastlane.gmblogs…Bob Lutz
…”By the way, you should know that all of us who have driven the Volt view it as a thrilling performance car, and you can easily burn rubber with it… without burning any gas!”
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:06 pm)It seems to be working for Ford though. At least so far. Probably because a) it only costs $3300 more than the regular Fusion, and b) it increases city miliage from 23 mpg, to 42. That’s a huge increase, IMHO, for anyone who does a significant amount of city driving.
As long as the miliage difference is big enough, and the price premium small enough, a hybrid model will sell.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:17 pm)
Jul 13th, 2009 (2:20 pm)Toyota HSD is simpler than a regular transmission…how about fewer moving parts?.. no clutch or torque converter.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:25 pm)Sounds OK. We just don’t hear much about the Altima Hybrid. Nissan does a poor job of marketing it, apparently.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:29 pm)You do realize that for the first few years the Prius was largely hand built and sold at DRASTIC losses, don’t you? Not to mention Toyota had plenty of engineering issues and trial & error to get a product it could even sell. The first runs of the Prius still had issues that required redesigns & patches.
I’m not trying to bash the Prius. It’s doing well now. But, call a pig a pig and an apple an apple. I never thought the Synergy Drive system design made much since when it was first made public. I guess some times common sense is lacking in our product designers.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (2:32 pm)A no plug version of the Volt? How would that work? How would the battery recharge?
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:39 pm)+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (2:40 pm)Guido: “Stop whining – GM tried to give consumers a less expensive hybrid option at a lower price point”
What was “less expensive” about it? It’s about $2K more than a Prius and $3900 more than a regular Malibu. It’s a useless hybrid option at a hgher price point.
Apparently, GM never figured that the customers would want something concrete, like significantly better fuel economy, for their money. Did GM think they were happy to pay $3900 just to get a “hybrid” badge? Does GM think it doesn’t sell because they “hybrid” badge isn’t big enough?
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:41 pm)No.
I’d rather get a third off a wine braised salmon salad than half off a more expensive giant log of lard, myself.
Apparently, I’m not the only one:
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-sales-dashboard/june-2009-dashboard.html
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:42 pm)Lots of people buy pickups. Toyota is in business to make money. Connect the dots. It doesn’t matter to the planet whether your 15mpg vehicle comes from GM or from Toyota. It’s the end-users who make the green or brown decisions.
At least Toyota does offer a vehicle for people who want super-high fuel economy. GM? Nope… trucks, trucks and more trucks!
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:45 pm)Because it contains a LOT more moving parts and the nature of it might require much finer tolerances.
I’m perfectly willing to give GM credit where it’s due… The two-mode transmission is effective.
But at the price they must charge, it is a non-starter in a passenger car or light truck.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (2:46 pm)Yep… and the son-of-a-gun is right, too. Don’t you just hate it when that happens?
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Jul 13th, 2009 (2:50 pm)Demonized? How about “it didn’t solve the problem the loud people have?”
If all of the full-sized pickup truck buyers bought the hybrid trucks, then it would make big a difference. But I haven’t seen that happening. The only GM hybrid pickup truck I’ve ever seen was sitting in a new-car lot for months and months, looking for a buyer. I stopped needing to go to that part of that town, so I don’t know if it ever sold.
I love the idea of the electric power-takeoff on their “contractor’s special”, but a full-sized pickup truck would cost more, burn more fuel, take up more driveway-space than my Ford Ranger. My Ranger is bigger than I actually need (I’m a homeowner with a handyman complex), so I’m just not willing to take those hits.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:03 pm)It is a very reasonable request, Rashiid. One GM did not understand and may still not understand. We will not know until they “flesh” things out more. I think GM would do well to contact either of the two of us before committing resources to a new venture. I know we could have saved them tons of money in the past decade.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:12 pm)I got the car brand new for $16,500 in 2005. It has been cheap to keep. I get between 45 and 49 mpg on a regular basis. I drive it like a regular car and do not baby the gas pedal. I put those batteries to work! I’m still running on the original brakes and pads. I change the oil every 10000 miles. Nothing has broken on the car. I replaced the tires at 80,000 miles. I would say it was worth the money.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:12 pm)It’s also nice not having to fill up as often, and less knee-jerk reaction to gas prices that go up 15 cents overnight.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:22 pm)Yes, thanks Dave G, very interesting data.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:23 pm)Diesel
Diesel hybrid,
CNG fuel cell erv
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:27 pm)Yep, when you see the Malibu in the flesh, it is way cool!
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (3:29 pm)Coincidentally, that’s how our table saw got home– in the back of a Prius.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:31 pm)48.
Guy Incognito Says:___________________________.
“GM Planning Dedicated High Efficiency Hybrid Sedan”
Uh yeah, about that…
The Volt IS a Dedicated High Efficiency Hybrid Sedan!
I challenge anybody reading this post to prove my above statement is wrong.
Good Luck
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:32 pm)Please compare thw two images, honestly you think the Malibu looks better?
http://www.mixedpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/chevy-malibu.jpg
http://coolcarssb.com/BMWwhitesedan1.jpg
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:34 pm)Nissan only sells it in a few areas, in order to meet CARB loopholes, so it’s quite hard to get them. It’s gotten decent auto mag reviews.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (3:36 pm)“My car gets 40 rods to the hogs-head, and that’s the way I likes it!” – Grandpa Simpson.
Seriously – define Sedan? define extremely efficient? define dedicated hybrid? We never get details/actual target #s.
Maybe they are going to make a stretch-puma for all I know.
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+1
Jul 13th, 2009 (3:40 pm)I just purchased the new 2010 Prius 3 weeks ago for $22,000 and I have been getting 58 mpg driving to work and back (1,000 miles so far). I looked at the hybrid versions of the Fusion, Malibu, Civic, Camry and Insight. I really didn’t want to purchase the Prius (it was the ugliest of all of these), but when it comes to buying a car for high mpg and overall value the Prius is currently unbeatable. I am also no tree hugger, I kept my Ford F150 pickup with the FairTax sticker on the bumper to prove it. I guess I am just a stingy pragmatist who wanted the best value for his money. I will probably sell it and purchase the Volt when it is available in Montana.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:44 pm)That Malibu sucked arse. The lamest hybrid ever made. You can do better than this GM, okay maybe the NEW GM can.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:56 pm)Is the Ford Fusion really bigger than the Malibu? I would have thought the other way around after seeing them on the road next to each other. I haven’t checked their specifications.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (3:56 pm)
Jul 13th, 2009 (4:01 pm)Well said, Mr. Lutz. I tend to agree with him on global warming. Right now it is designed to influence people and governments and make a lot of money for the likes of Al Gore.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (4:02 pm)Hardly, I don’t know why it is that Lexus can’t make a vehicle that doesn’t put me to sleep styling wise.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (4:05 pm)Thanks for the link. It is a good looking car. As Keith says above: “far better looking than a Volt too”. Well, it is good looking anyway. It will probably cost as much as half again as much as the Volt. As far as performance, isn’t it about the same as a Camry Hybrid but with Lexus badges, extra options and additional pricing? So why produce it except to make a ton of money from people who will only buy a Lexus? Seems like a good reason, I guess.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (4:10 pm)Yes, if the mpg differential is big enough you can pull this off. But the difference has to be larger than it usually is. With the Fusion, even assuming that you drive 10K miles in the city, you’re only looking at about 200 gallons of gas a year. Given that people want a very fast payback, and that gas is only around $3/gallon, this is not a slam dunk.
That said, from what I’ve seen the difference may be more than $3K when you look at selling prices rather than MSRPs, and $3K is about the difference between the base Pontiac G8 and the GT version, the latter being far more desirable if your testosterone is causing you to look for something noticeable for your money.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (4:11 pm)Is that old geezer still around ?
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Jul 13th, 2009 (4:11 pm)You are hitting on all cylinders, I do believe. Anything with 10 or over mpc before ICE usage is going to heavily impact the Volt. As long as the Volt is $15,000 or more higher in price. Except for the few of us who would still purchase the Volt over the Prius PHEV-10 or PHEV-20.
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Jul 13th, 2009 (4:13 pm)Schmeltz,
Here’s hoping too.
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