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Unretired GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz on GM’s New eBay Experiment

July 11th, 2009 | Posted in: Dealers, Marketing

It’s hard to believe, but we are finally here, the light at the end of the tunnel has arrived; its the first full day of the new post-bankruptcy GM. After 8 months of intensively following the company’s fall from grace, it’s all over, they are saved. Now we can get back to business only “not business as usual” as GM’s CEO Fritz Henderson has said.

As we heard in CEO Henderson’s conference, our favorite tell-it-like-it-is, shoot-from-the-hip, pink-tie-wearing, global-warming-crockin’, Letterman-schoolin’ automotive icon Bob Lutz has been “unretired” and will remain vice-chairman of GM. Only with the executive reshuffling and attrition, Lutz actually has more responsibility. The 77 year old Marine is now in charge of all “creative elements of products and customer relationships.” He will oversee marketing, communications, design, and customer relationships.

And right away he was out there making news on national radio.

Another tidbit from Henderson’s news conference was that GM will be trying out a new experiment shortly in selling cars in California through online auctioning company eBay.

In this scheme, dealers will place their cars on eBay for auction. A buy it now option will exist for those who do not want to bid. The experiment would allow consumers to research cars across all dealerships simultaneously, and get the best deal possible.

“The power of the eBay brand mated up with the four core brands from GM could be a really good thing,” said Susan Docherty, general manager of Buick-GMC. “It takes the shopping process online up about 4 notches because you’ve got a lot more information at your fingertips.”

Bob Lutz went on NPR news and gave his thoughts on it:

Lets face it, all of these online experiments will purely be for the customer to make her pre-selection of the car and ultimately that vehicle will still be delivered by a dealer.

There is no model which can legally permit automobile companies to sell directly to the customer. That’s just prohibited by law in almost all states. But what we hope to do by this is…the dealer puts up the car on that Internet auction and then the customers can bid on them. Once the bidding is successful, the customer then contacts that dealer for the pickup…Then there’s always one issue that can never be dealt with on an Internet sale, and that’s the question of the used car that the customer wants to trade in.

Every 10 or 15 years or so, and Ive been in this business since 1963, in sales and marketing, some genius invents a system that’s going to eliminate car dealers. Everybody always gets excited an sometimes Wall Street puts a lot of money into it and it always fails because the franchise independent retailer is always the way to go. It always works best.

So is Lutz saying this is a good idea or a bad one? And will this be applied to the Volt? Stay tuned for the next era of GM-Volt.com.

PRESS PLAY BUTTON BELOW TO HEAR LUTZ ON NPR:

Posted by: Lyle

163 Responses to “Unretired GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz on GM’s New eBay Experiment”

+1 an_outsider Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:34 am

Not sure about eBay test platform..
Maybe CTO (Construct To Order) online as available for computer should have been a better way to change shopping practice but the car/truck has to be delivered to your “preferred” (or closest) dealer.
An indirect effect should be to reduce cars inventory too.

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+7 fredevad Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:39 am

I might use this e-Bay approach for additional research, but I don’t think I would bid. I need to see and drive the car before making any kind of contract to buy it.

BTW – Congratulations GM!

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+1 Rashiid Amul Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:39 am

I see Bob staying as a good thing.
He has automotive smarts. Not everything that he has accomplished as hit the mark mind you, but most things have been good.

Besides, Whitacre needs as mush help as he can.

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+2 JEC Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:46 am

So, now the consumer would just research past sales on eBay, and find out who had the lowest accepting bid for a car, then go to your dealer and say “I want to pay, what this guy did”.

When the dealer says “No way we can sell at that price”, the customer just leaves and goes to another dealer.

I doubt eBay will work for the automotive sales. It is just to emotional and not just another purchase for the majority of people.

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-11 Shawn Marshall Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:47 am

(click to show comment)

Alas poor Statik – that friggin’ Lutz iz still wit uz.

Dear Lyle – Doubtful that GM is saved – time will tell.

Fitty billions in taxpayer funds ( money we don’t have) and exactly what is the poor taxpayers ownership status??
I’m a Voltfan too but you guys should realize how disgraceful and hateful this extremely interventionist behavior is. It’s specifically un-American and precisely anti-capital.

GM, please spin off the Volt into a real enterprise.

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+3 BillR Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:49 am

“our favorite tell-it-like-it-is, shoot-from-the-hip, pink-tie-wearing, global-warming-crockin’, Letterman-schoolin’ automitive icon Bob Lutz”

Thanks, Lyle. Got a real chuckle from that.

Glad to see Bob is back.

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an_outsider Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:52 am

..but eBay may be a good option for dealers to liquidate their previous “new” car year models, overstock and so on.
CTO may bring a more personalized car but it will also mean a longer lead time.
Are they ready to take Volt order online? Not yet.(as far as I know)

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+2 PLJ Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:11 am

I am a dyed in the wool free-market capitalist too, Shawn.

But the Government is right to do what it is doing and the link here reveals why:

http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html

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+2 zipdrive Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:15 am

“our favorite tell-it-like-it-is, shoot-from-the-hip, pink-tie-wearing, global-warming-crockin’, Letterman-schoolin’ automitive icon Bob Lutz”

————————————————

Let’s not forget “jet – crashin”

We luv ya Bob!

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statik Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:17 am

…friggen Bob Lutz

I assume what they are thinking that having dealers post cars online, there will always be one or two dealers that are willing to make almost nothing to sell and/or liquidate some inventory…so they are defacto almost selling it direct online.

Sidenote: I guess we are now going to have ‘DoE Voltx3 Loan Watch’ threads?

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ThombDbhomb Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:19 am

It sounds like the ebay decision got momentum before Lutz became the marketing guy. Why else would he talk it down?

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+2 Dave G Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:21 am

One issue is that different dealers have different cars. If you want a specific color and package, it would be nice to know which dealers in your area have that car in stock, without having to call each one separately.

Once you give a dealer your name & number, they will bug you for months.

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old man Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:24 am

You hit it squarely on the head but it is not limited to Japan. I think nearly every country in the world EXCEPT US understands this. And here it seems that both political partys are determined to ship all of our manufacturing overseas. And way to many of us do not see any thing important about that as long as they can buy cheap.
I will not rant on this subject again [on this thread].

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+3 Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:35 am

Needs to be a better way…

I went to three dealers before buying my last car. The first salesman (Chrysler) said, “This is our product, we don’t care what it is…we sell it to people who want it. This is the price people will pay for it”.

I walked off the lot as he told me how good he was. Selling cars around the world…ect.

The second salesman (Honda) said, “This is the price, we can’t go lower”. I replied, “Drop $500, and I’ll buy it today”. He replied, “Sorry, we can get more for it”.

I walked off the lot.

The third salesman (Honda) listened to me. He gave me what I wanted for my trade and took a little off the new sticker. We reached the price I had in mind. I bought and waited 4 days for my color to arrive (burgundy). Have been back twice for $300 service intervals.

Locals asking me about the other two dealerships get a negative “don’t go there” response.

Those other two guys really pissed me off.

The Chrysler dealership went down, out of business, about 2 months ago. They are gone. I don’t care about the first Honda dealership. They will never see me again.

Needs to be a better way.

Ever buy a PC online?

hard drive:
80GB included
120Gb add $18
200 GB add $25

CD drive:
50X ROM included
All in One DVD/RW add $15
2 X All in One add $40

Speakers:
4 built in included
8 surround add $25
Bose Premium add $45

Why not for cars?

=D~

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+1 ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:41 am

What do we do on E-Bay? Start at the MSRP and bid up from there? No thanks! I’d rather do my homework and negotiate with the dealer for the best price I can get.

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old man Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:01 am

Slight problem with the computer example, If you want to make it as an example of buying a new car on line then tell me what you got for trade allowance on your old computer.IMO trade in is only one example of the problems that will make online buying of a new car a bit tough.

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+1 RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:03 am

Looking at the details, I thought the eBay listing could be a useful marketing maneuver, in that it gives dealers the names of people with interest and money.

As far as I could tell, the eBay “sale” will not be an actual transaction, though, due to “to be negotiated” prices for trade-in and perhaps other things such as “delivery charges”, “administration”, “dealer options” or whatever, it seems to be more of a way to get leads than an actual mechanism for selling cars.

Maybe if/ as /when eBay sales actually begin one can get a better idea of what the eBay part really amounts to. Right now it appears to be about advertising and dealer contacts.

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statik Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:04 am

I’ve still got a crisp ‘Benjamin’ ready to go for that pink tie Bob, (with a personal note as well of course…I have some suggestions).

http://www.gm-volt.com/images/lu2.jpg

http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/moolah/images/bill.jpeg

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+1 Van Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:09 am

I am not sure the “Online” market has reached its mature state yet. I see the grocery stores are still in business so the push for online order and home delivery did not succeed initially. The way I bought by last car might be instructive. I shopped at dealers, took those I was interested in on test drives, and then I went online to Toyota to “build my own Toyota.” I picked out the color, seats, and skipped the moon roof. I printed out a hard copy which contained the MSRP. I went in to my friendly neighborhood Toyota dealer and saw their “online sales” representative. He said Toyota did not make the vehicle I wanted, that I had to get one with a moonroof. It was now my turn to smile and walk out. I called a Toyota dealer that is one of the largest in Southern California and sure enough, the one I wanted they would have in about 6 weeks. I put $500 down and in 6 weeks they called and had my car, right color, right seats and no moonroof. And the price was about $2,500 below the MSRP so I drove away happy.

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+1 RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:09 am

No need to be so negative.
Be polite, never say never.
It is the best negotiating way.
People in dealerships are trying to make a living too.
Next time the 1st Honda dealer may be the cheaper one.

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:11 am

Likely the dealer will offer a discount price and buyers will bid up toward msrp. Apparently the result will not be the “final” price, however, in that there have to be subsequent negotiations at the dealer, as for trade-in and other charges.

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-6 Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:20 am

RB.. I’m the boss. That’s not how I do business. They dropped the ball and failed to survive.

=D~

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+3 John Jones Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:20 am

I don’t quite understand, if a dealer has a current auction running on a vehicle and a buyer walks into the dealership and wants to negotiate to buy the vehicle how can they sell the vehicle before the auction ends? I see in certain circumstances (no current bids on the vehicle or the in-store buyer is willing to pay the ‘buy-it-now’ price) they can reasonably recall the online auction but if there is a real ‘bidding war’ between an on-line bidder and an in-store buyer who just wants to purchase a vehicle what happens?

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+1 Thomas Gilling Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:23 am

This is a good idea, there could be a section to buy a brand new car in some default configurations and one for GM approved used. But I think there would need to be a new Web App needed. One that could become an industry standard. Cars on ebay are more like the traditional sell yourself 2nd hand. And that’s the impression on the customer. Remember Vauxhall was the first car company to put all it’s models online. Perhaps the New GM can pioneer again. I hated the old GM, let’s see if this new company can do better. (Even though I hate the old GM, I do like Electric Car’s)

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DonC Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:31 am

Just a few points:

1 The eBay idea simply extends how the internet is being used now. When the dealer cuts were announced, CNN interviewed a few dealers, trying to get a storyline that the cuts would increase car prices by decreasing competition. The dealers, which were being cut, just said that wouldn’t happen because at least 80% of the customers had researched the price on line before they came into the dealership.

2. The eBay idea probably won’t give you any more price information than you have now. If you’re looking for a car today, just go to the “Prices Paid” forums on Edmunds.com, look up your car, and you can get a very good idea of what the going rate is.

3. While hopefully no one will actually physically visit a dealer, the price negotiation may not play out exactly as you envision. Since you know what the prices are, you just pick the dealer with the service department you want and then just call and talk to the internet manager (in an adult way). It’s one of those you know that he knows that you know what the prices are. Last time I did this the manager said, “Yeah, your price is real but that’s probably from LA and we can’t match it, but if you want to go to LA you will be able to get that”. (I paid a few hundred more and bought the car local). The whole price negotiation takes maybe five minutes.

Also note that there are some sticky points even in an online auction. On eBay you’ll need to check out whether the price includes taxes and tags and sales taxes, whether there are destination chargers included — price out the door may not be price per se. Any of these things can move the needle a bit.

4. Car dealers aren’t making much if any money on new vehicle sales, and they haven’t for many years. It’s a razor and blade business and cars are the razors while service is the blades.

5. While car manufacturers can’t set prices exactly, lease deals allow them to influence prices.

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Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:40 am

There is a lot of room for creativity here.

Why do we buy something? Because we like what we’re getting. It makes us feel good and assists us.

How about 2000 free music downloads with the purchase of a premium sound system? Two tickets to NASCAR, NHRA, or Monster Jam with the purchase of Recaro seats? 10% discount on home solar assist purchases with the purchase of a Volt roof array? A golf or gambling get-a-way with the purchase of an extended warranty.

Many casinos and golf courses will beg GM for the advertising opportunity. I can find online offers for discounted $54 greens fees for $20 through the chain ground management companies that care for the courses. They want bodies. Traffic = $.

It’s not that hard to do.

=D~

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DonC Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:42 am

Sorry to hear about this. It was probably more than a few years ago. Physically going to the dealer when you’re ready to buy is invariably a waste of time and puts you at a disadvantage — you’re out of your element and in the dealer’s element. Talking to a salesguy is always a waste of time since their primary role is just to get your initial offer. You’ll probably have a better — and much shorter — experience if you first research the prices and then do the negotiation by phone.

There is still some back and forth but it’s pretty cut and dried.

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+3 jan Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:46 am

Why a need for EBAY. Why can’t GM and it’s dealers have their own site. A site that is geared to the customer getting the car with the options they want. Even better would be when t website has all brands of cars. One stop shopping, so to speak. The only reason not to is that sales people like to take advantage of customers. I’m sure many people over pay by the thousands of dollars. Sure, dealers have to many of some cars and not enough of another so pricing comes into play. Inventory control without suppressing impulse buying may be an issue. I wonder if a high volume of customer ordered cars would screw-up the mass production process and actually negate a low inventory/on-time build to order sales structure. I think dealers have to much overhead with new cars just sitting.

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-2 CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:04 am

An eBay item up for auction can be cancelled at any time, and if the item has a “buy it now price” and you bid that price, auction over.

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Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:06 am

It’s a little trouble to clean and show the car. But using a Trade Express magazine ad will get you more than a dealers $1000 trade in for a well maintained car with 180,000 miles on it. My wife’s 97′ Civic (168,000 miles) sold for $4600 cash in 2006 using a Trade Express ad.

That’s 46 x $100 bills… cash.

=D~

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+1 hayley Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:07 am

” That’s just prohibited by law in almost all states. ”

Where is it not prohibited? I’d love to find out so I can buy my next car in that state if they sell direct…

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+2 CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:16 am

This is a terrible idea for VOLT. All it will do is create tons of negative press. Our dealership experimented with selling New cars and trucks over eBay for about 18 months. Colossal waste of time. No matter what price you post for the (new) vehicle, the bidders always ask for 25 to 50% OFF THAT. It doesn’t matter if you post it OVER-UNDER-AT MSRP, you never get a reasonable offer in return.

There must be some ’special class’ that teaches eBay users to do this, or there is a huge number brainless idiots that really believe that anyone (Dealer or Individual) would really sell a new car or truck for half off.

We understand that eBay allows buyer to place “bids”, and so the consumer has every right to bid 50% off on a new car, but why bother? The dealer is not going to LOSE MONEY on any vehicle. Yet I can just picture a buck-toothed junior-high-graduate- unemployed-40-year- old rubbing his hands together saying “I’ll just show that f’n dealer a thing or two about car buying”… Meanwhile, on our end, we get these bids and just scratch our heads and wonder just how stupid anyone can be.

So now Lutz wants to do this? Good luck with the slack-jawed yokels.

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+1 CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:21 am

You are absolutely right, my friend. And that is what our dealership is already gearing up for. We’ve had great success in handling 2010 Camaro orders in that fashion, it will work for VOLT also.

Once official pricing, colors and options lists become available, we will have our own site to take orders, and at this point in time our owner says the first 50 cars will be sold at MSRP. No markups.

eBay is great when you want to sell a used piece of crap auto to get it off your hands, but to even think of selling a NEW VOLT (?) – - – supposidly the car that GM is betting the farm on (?) – - – That is absurd.

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an_outsider Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:21 am

I did pretty the same as do you when I bought with last one in 2005.

Actual online car shopping is missing the last step, click and buy from your dealer of choice. Online shopping is not for everyone out there but I’m one of those.

About Toyota, they almost copied the, now defunct, old fashioned Saturn way with no bargaining, no hassle, net price tag politic except for their 30 days/1500m-2500km(?) return policy on stock car.

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EVNow Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:22 am

I think it makes sense to buy on e-bay if you don’t have a trade-in.

Any car in short supply, like Volt next year, should be sold on e-bay so that GM/Dealer get the best price possible …

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+1 DaV8or Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:26 am

All I have to say is; Welcome back Bob!

I dunno ’bout eBay…

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-2 Shawn Marshall Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:30 am

No problem here with assistance from public funds to US manufacturers to try and correct a set of problems largely caused by ?? government intervention (in labor issues, arbitration, union political support, “free trade”).

Does that mean you expropriate the company from creditors and force the government into ownership? Do we each get a common share of new GM?
This is the lie of the situation – they needed to help GM because they caused most of its problems and they should have done it by outright grants, by warrants or other means – NOT by taking over a corporate enterprise and NOT by ignoring the rights of bondholders and NOT by ignoring contract law.
So, you guys gonna buy bonds in new GM?
SELL the VOLT to a good company.

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-6 tom gray Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:34 am

GM is in no better position now than it was before the bankruptcy, excepting that they managed to screw and rape their shareholders and bondholders – that’s where their newfound lower debt level came from. There won’t be any more debt from the public – no fool would buy a GM bond. And anyone who thinks GM’s “green car” lineup means profits had better rethink that bit of nonsense. BYD can easily clean GM’s clock on the Volt – I’ll say it again – by the time the Volt finally staggers into the showrooms, BYD will have had not one but two Volt-type vehicles that are , in practically every conceivable way, far superior. The all-important battery-powered driving range (50% greater), the cost (approximately half as expensive). The Volt can’t even beat the BYD on looks. Game, set, match. The Volt doesn’t have a prayer. And they know it. As for GM’s future prosperity – get real. Simply shedding old debt and some old divisions doesn’t change a single thing. They are now, with fewer model varieties, putting all their eggs in fewer baskets and thus are more vulnerable to model failure than ever.

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+2 jeffhre Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:40 am

Alas poor Statik – that friggin’ Lutz iz still wit uz.

Dear Lyle – Doubtful that GM is saved – time will tell.

Fitty billions in taxpayer funds ( money we don’t have) and exactly what is the poor taxpayers ownership status??
I’m a Voltfan too but you guys should realize how disgraceful and hateful this extremely interventionist behavior is. It’s specifically un-American and precisely anti-capital.

GM, please spin off the Volt into a real enterprise
______________________
ROTF LOL. Oh I apologize, you were actually being serious weren’t you.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:40 am

Wonder what Mr Lutz would say about the earth cooling for the last 11 years.
That should convince him that global warming is not a crockapoo.
Mebbe he’ll do a concept car for polar bears. PolarVolt.

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Brian T Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:45 am

I’d like to see these “laws” that prohibit buying a car from a manufacturer. It sounds ridiculous. Why not have the option to cut out the middleman for those people who know exactly what they want and don’t need to be “sold” anything.

The last car I bough I picked out the exact one online down the the VIN and the only value the dealer added was a place to pay and pick it up. If I could do it all online, pay with Paypal and have it shipped to my house and eliminate all the dealer delivery fees, holdback and other fees, that would be great.

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jeffhre Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:47 am

The Scion division of Toyota had that sales model a few years ago. Haven’t checked since.

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-1 James Johnson Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:49 am

The first 40 sold at MSRP, no markups? Wow, how generous of you!

I’ll pass, I’ve never paid close to MSRP for a car and never will. Let alone a markup on top of MSRP!

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an_outsider Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:50 am

I pretty did the same as you do when I bought my last one in 2005.
(sorry, I should have re-read my post)

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jeffhre Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:50 am

What’s a slack-jawed yokel?

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+1 CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:52 am

Note to Mr. Lutz:

I believe the Editor of GM-VOLT.com could save your Marketing Department a substantial amount of time and work. As I understand it, the GM-VOLT.com website already has about 48,500 interested buyers already.

I suggest that you get the email list from Lyle and just send each a questionnaire as to colors, options and even price ranges that they are willing to pay for a new VOLT.

For those in Southern California, I would be happy to deliver those for you for a nominal fee (SPIFF!)

Just give me a call.

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+1 GM Volt Fan Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:54 am

I’m glad that Bob Lutz is back. I just hope that GM has other executives who are being groomed to do the things that Bob does well. GM needs a “strong bench” of people like Bob. Bob might still be plenty healthy but he needs to start thinking about grooming the next generation of uber-managers.

GM needs to get the best people they can find …. experts in product development, marketing, engineering, etc. They need talented people that know how to combine the best ideas from science and engineering with the best ideas from art and design. When excellent engineering and excellent design come together optimally in a vehicle, you get bestsellers that get rave reviews from the automotive press and customers alike.

Get ‘er done GM. You’ve got a “new lease on life”. Take advantage of it. Don’t take it for granted either. Don’t drift back into the “old ways” that got GM in the mess it ended up in this past year.

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+2 Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 11:56 am

tg…interesting comment.

GM shareholders, stock, bonds? The day before GM stock went to “pink paper” status, the price was $1.18 a share. This was down from $1.47 the day before. The second day after going pink GM stock sank to .88 per share. Speculators jumped in and GM stock buoyed back to $1.25 then to $1.44 the day after. Was $1.11 last week. Yesterday GM stock closed at $1.15 a share.

BYD is made in China. China manufacturers are on record as saying they make inexpensive products that last 1-3 years. “Just in time for the new technology to replace it.”

Not a bad idea really, quite an efficient use of material and cheap labor. Not good for landfill space, but it’s how they do business.

Ever try to file a quality complaint or get a refund from a Chinese company? Their tactic to to perpetually reply, “I will relay your concern to my manager”.

We have watched the Volt come together part by part. More so than any car in history. While attending the L.A. car show I felt like a Volt engineer having the inside knowledge of the vehicle. I showed restraint and let the Volt rep do the talking, although I was able to do the job just as well.

=D~

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CS Guy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

Way to hang in there, Bob!

It’s great that we have, once again, the same creative minds that have brought GM to success over the past 30 years. Congratulations are definitely in order!

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-5 Shawn Marshall Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

Don’t know about BYD, if they can ever sell it here people will buy it – some have no choice about price. Battery longevity would be the critical issue.
Toyota is certainly a more formidable opponent for the Volt – their strategy is to sneak up on the price point by adding battery and mileage while undercutting the Volt price. It’s a good gambit. Little risk and high power against a competitive technology.
If China owns our debt, owns our government thereby, owns GM thereby then why isn’t the Volt a Chinese Peoples car?

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CS Guy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

The dealers are a necessary evil, Mr. Brian. We need some place to go and kick the tires and take a test drive. Sure that could be done a lot cheaper with small lot test drive centers but there would be nobody to wash the car and spray that “new car smell” stuff before handing you the keys. Oh, and dealer markup is an absolute necessity for me. I would never pay wholesale price when a dealer is willing to sell it to me for a much higher price.

I couldn’t live without my local car dealer, I’ll tell you that.

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Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

C Guy…

Throw in a free key coat body protector coating and I’ll come down and have a test drive. And of course, I’ll tell three friends about your dealership.

BTW: The U.S. military has some unbelievable coating materials in use. One in particular coats the leading edge of helicopter rotor blades. Doesn’t get the slightest scratch from a house key when repeatedly raked. Food for thought.

=D~

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jeffhre Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

excepting that they managed to screw and rape their shareholders and bondholders
_________________________
Strong words. The system seems a little skewed when managers can continue to collect millions in salaries, bonuses, stocks and expense accounts in light of the above. Maybe some really smart economist or b-school prof will think of a better way to do it some day.

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CS Guy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

I agree. Stupid customers. I would think that is the tamest of things you should say about your customers, am I right Corvey?

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+3 LauraM Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

Maybe I’m missing something, since I’ve never actually bought a car, but I don’t understand your issue with the first Honda dealer. Basically, he didn’t want to sell you the car for the price you wanted to pay? If he thinks he can sell it to someone else at list price, why shouldn’t he? I can see walking out, but telling people not to go there?

I’d love to pay $50 to see Wicked instead of the typical $110, but I don’t blame the guy at the ticket counter for not selling it to me for that. Or not giving me a discount. Yes. Sometimes that means I don’t see the show (or I go through various discount offers). But I don’t get offended, or tell my friends not to pay to see it!

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CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

If only I had a VOLT for test drives….

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+2 CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

Don’t waste your time if you think there will be markDOWNs on top of the federal rebates on the VOLT. GM and what few remaining dealers there are will be trying to MAKE money to stay alive. Not give away cars to a “I’ll never pay MSRP jerk”.

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+2 coffeetime Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

In my lifetime, I’ve owned the following new vehicles: 1971 Ford Pinto, 1973 Ford Econoline van; 1975 Ford Econoline van; 1977 VW Scirocco; 1979 Toyota SR-5 truck; 1985 Honda Civic wagon; 1990 Honda Accord EX sedan; 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee; 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser and 2003 Dodge RAM 1500 truck (plus a half dozen motorcycles and boats). With only two exceptions (my first car and our first boat), nothing was traded in, but sold outright. It can be done, people, it can be done.

I found it interesting that Bob said that various state laws prevent automobile manufacturers from selling their product directly to consumers. Yet another example of the nanny state, I’m sure, except I would bet that political favoritism probably had more to do with it versus any consumer slight. It’s funny how Apple (through their own retail stores), Dell Computer (over the internet), Avon, Bowflex, etc. can all sell their products direct to consumers, but somehow car makers can’t. I’m sorry, but car dealerships seem so damn inefficient to me, with all that inventory (usually cars that don’t meet all of your criteria) taking up space, and pools of salesmen “sharks” waiting to swarm every approaching.

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+1 Mike-o-Matic Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

By way of example, here’s a very well known one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cletus_Spuckler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3CZYbIPCPo

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+2 Guy Incognito Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

How does one go about taking a test drive of an ebay purchased vehicle?

=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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jason M. Hendler Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

It doesn’t hurt to try it. By trying, we see first hand the obstacles, while taking hard metrics on customer response.

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+2 Jim I Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

Car dealers and car salespersons try to make the most money they can. That is why they play all these games. It is also why they are so poorly recognized as professionals. “Dealer Markup” – give me a break!

For a purchase as large as a car, I just think e-bay is dumb. I want to see it and test drive it, whether or not it is new or used.

Plus, the dealer knows before you walk in the door or go online what their cost is, and what they have to make as profit to keep the doors open at the dealership.

I will buy a car where I trust the service department, because long term that is what I will need. The sales process is over as soon as I pay the money….

I know that dealerships are all independent, and can sell cars for whatever they like, but if the NEW GM really wanted to level the playing field, all they would have to do is publish the sales price of the cars they sell to the dealers. Then, all these stupid games would go away for a new car purchase….. You walk in, the dealer says “We need a 20% markup for profit and sales commission, Would you like us to write the order?”

Seems pretty simple to me…..

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+3 LauraM Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

Not every country. Yes. Japan manipulates it’s trade. Ditto for South Korea. Arguably India. And China is Japan on steroids.

But at some point we have to take responsibility for our own actions. We decided to establish Bretton Woods with the US dollar as the “reserve currency.” And it’s unlikely to end any time soon because there aren’t any real alternatives. (They may do a basket of currencies, but that would be a) complicated, and c)there will still be the issue of weighting currencies, etc. And there are serious problems with using a specific commodity.)

We’re also the country that decided to go on a borrowing and spending binge. We spend too much and save too little. Even now, too much, IMHO, of the stimulus was spent on consumption (unemployment benefits, health care, tax cuts, etc.) That has consequences.

Also, fundamentally, we are a high wage country. The highest actually. And we go out of our way to hinder our businesses rather than help them. (Employer provided health care, unions can prevent technological unemployment, etc.) That puts us at a disadvantage trading-wise.

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-2 Herm Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

Each dealer should have ALL their cars, used or new, listed on Ebay.. it is convenient and many people know how to use the site.

Ebay does not have a car section but that can be fixed. You would need to sort by distance, car brand, model, color etc.

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+1 CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

There are days where I would love to cut loose and really tell some of these customers just how ignorant they are, but I need to stay employed at least until the VOLT makes it to the showrooms. Bite my tongue. Bite my tongue. Bite my tongue. Shheeeeeesh!

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-1 Herm Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

You could set a reserve price on the auction.. the minimum cost you are willing to sell it for. I understand dealers may not want to give away their lowest price but it sure would reduce haggling and need for salesman on the floor.

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an_outsider Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

Why not improve the actual car sale model to the 21st century?

Checking the mfg website for specs, closest dealer location and taking appointment for a test drive, get a price for its trade-in, etc is fine but new car MRSP, minus rebate, plus shipping charge, minus promotion, plus admin fee, negotiation, etc is an outdated practice.

improve the GM web site with online transaction and maybe the most important point, publish a honest net (no hassle) price tag. This net price should includes everything included based on your state location.

In 3 steps:
1) Add online transaction with real stock inventory check or build to order-up with lead time.
2) Final sell contract & delivery will be done between you and the dealer of your choice but it must be located in your state of residence (to keep pricing policy valid).
3) Freight charge, dealer (hidden) commission and other fees must be included in the “buy it now” online price plus applicable sale taxe. Financing rules need to be transparent too.

Otherwise, the walk-in thru door still a viable business model… as long products met customer price / value expectation.

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Gregski Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

unbelievable

I said it before when I gave you the it takes a while to turn a battle ship around speach

unretired = nothing’s changed, business as usual thank you tax payers for bailing us out, now it’s time for the rich executives to go back to doing what they do best, getting bonuses

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Dave G Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

I thought eBay doesn’t give any information about the losing bidders to the seller. Is the GM deal with eBay different?

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-2 FLMan Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

I agree with a change to the Dealer model. Reduce the over all inventory at the dealer down to a few loaded test vehicles, and allow the consumer to build and order the car through the dealer. The consumer gets exactly what they were looking for (color and options), and the dealer is not having to maintain large inventories that they can not sell because the color was wrong.

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Herm Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

Trust me, you can say the word profit or markup in front of a customer.. especially one buying a car, a very emotional purchase.

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Herm Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

cant

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+2 Dan Petit Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

What will happen is that all serial numbers and options for Voltec vehicles will have bidders far higher than MSRP of course.
Then,
The dealership will have your competitor so that no matter where you are, or what you think that you might be able to get a Voltec vehicle for, you will always have a minute to minute stress of another bidder coming in higher and higher and higher.

The concept of local dealerships is turned on its head. Yes, the dealership is there, but all other interested parties in the entire World are now your competitors against your getting a Voltec vehicle.

Any one that thinks that Ebay Motors is going to somehow allow you to get a better price on a Volt is very excessively optimistic. The price will go higher, because everyone will know where every single Voltec vehicle is going to be before it is shipped.

There “was” a “wait list”, it is now a “want” list, which now becomes nothing at all.

Those of you who think GM won’t make money on the first Voltec vehicles? Well, now you know you are all wrong.

Bad press can come from this if there are not some immediate rules put into place, and, I mean right NOW.

We are not bidding on some used car. We are not bidding on something that has plentiful supply.

I can’t believe no one else is talking about this unless this topic is possibly censored off of this site and/or appears for that same poster (only?), or, multiple restricted-viewed threads are being run possibly.

I know GM has to make money, but no-one better claim GM won’t be making plenty of money from day one on Voltec vehicles.

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Studley Doright Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

Are you kidding me ?
I thought this jarhead had one foot in the grave already.

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Dan Petit Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

The other things that this will do is prove that all the other OEM’s, if they are not going EREV, (pardon me for saying it this way), but all other OEM’s who are not going EREV are, well, FOOLS, as harsh as the description is, the money IS going to be there for the higher price supports required for EREV.

I may soon have to accept that I won’t possibly be able to get one, but, such is life.

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The Who Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

New Boss…same as the Old Boss…

Won’t get fooled again.

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Dan Petit Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

Dave,

I have a really really bad feeling about this. See my post below at 3:45PM on 7-11-09.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

The sales process needs to be improved, but you can’t cut out the dealers just because you don’t like dealing with them. I believe Lutz did say that would be against the law (franchise tax laws in every state) and if the Manufacturer also controls the distribution channels, now you have a monopoly, also against the law.

And I’ve mentioned this before, if you did succeed in eliminating the dealers, then the manufacturer will build FEWER autos for fear of being overstocked now that there are no dealers to hold all that leftover inventory for 12 to 18 months. That would cause higher prices.

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+1 DonC Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

Yeah, I understand what you’re saying but, as you’ve mentioned, you’ve never bought a car. You’re talking theory but in practice it’s a lot more hit and miss. Because the market has traditionally lacked good information, there can be a lot of variability and hence uncertainty about price. This leads to unease on the part of consumers about whether the price they paid was “fair”. Now you may think that fairness isn’t an issue but in fact it can be a bigger issue for consumers than the actual price.

Plus, while it’s becoming less of an issue, the stupid stuff car dealers do will drive you batty — like quoting one price and then telling you “my manager won’t let me” or refusing to return your drivers license “unless you buy the car” today. It’s just annoying beyond belief and a huge waste of time.

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+1 DonC Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

At the end of the day price will be set by the supply and the demand. No real way around this. Given that GM is only making 10K Volts during the first year, if MSRP is $37K and there are more than 10K customers willing to pay $40K then the price will be above MSRP.

Assuming eBay would be involved — and there is no reason to think it would be at this point — all it would do is level the playing field between the customer and the dealer. Right now the information is asymmetric in that the dealer has a lot more information than the customer.

If some people will pay a big premium for one of the first Volts then more power to them.

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DonC Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

You sell cars every day so you have a good idea of the process. Most customers buy a car once every several years — and some may never have bought a car before. Given that it’s a big purchase, it’s not at all surprising that they ask for silly percentages off. Plus some customers are probably used to doing this at Best Buy and don’t understand the difference.

The more transparent pricing becomes the less leverage you will have and the less variance you’ll see in the price of each vehicle, which means that some consumers will get a worse deal and some will get a better deal. Overall it would be a good thing.

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an_outsider Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

Well, may I have been misunderstood here, I’m not talking about eliminating dealer, it is the opposite, they have to be part of the sale process (please re-read my post) but I’m especially against this old MRSP mfg retail “suggested” price stuff, minus rebate, plus a bunch of additional fees, negotiations process, etc.

The usual fine print remains: your local distributor may sell for less

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+1 James Johnson Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

Well, I’m trying to SAVE money to keep my family alive. And I’d never buy from a dealer who thinks of customers as “jerks” just because they don’t want to pay more than they have to. Wow, your arrogance shows why 99% of people hate car dealers.

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+1 Barry W Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 5:46 pm

Car dealers are one of those 20th century jobs that really aren’t needed as much anymore in today’s economy. Sure some people want to go that route, but a large percentange of people who grew up and work on the internet are perfectly comfortable buying a car online. I think they should be able to buy the car direct from the manufacturer at the same price as the dealer would. I think having Ebay is even too much of a middleman. Why not just let me log in to GM.com, pick out a vehicle, pay, and have it dropped off at my house?

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+2 Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 5:56 pm

Downsize GM dealerships to Goodwrench service bays? With the existing dealership network becoming a transport and delivery unit?

The Volt will obviously still be worked on by Goodwrench employees. Courtesy cars are a big plus in the service industry. Honda goes so far as to provide a free overnight rental if needed. It makes a difference.

=D~

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

eBay will have to be different for cars.
For example, the restriction to CA is also unusual.

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

“3. While hopefully no one will actually physically visit a dealer,..”
———————-

I like my dealer and like to visit.
Unfortunately he seems to be discontinuing GM, or vice versa.
Maybe there’s a Kia in my future (or whatever he becomes).

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

Let’s have it on eBay

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+1 RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

Dave K —
Usually one’s goal is not to establish who is boss as it is to get the best price. If the latter is your goal, take your time, be patient, encourage conversation, let all available dealers have a chance. Always be polite — it’s good business.

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:22 pm

“Talking to a salesguy is always a waste of time since their primary role is just to get your initial offer. ”
—————–

Actually it is the other way around. The longer the salesman talks, the more he (or she) becomes invested in the sale, to the degree that having you buy it becomes more important than the price of the sale. So you want the salesman to talk a while — a couple of hours is a good starting place. They are nice people, so it can be enjoyable.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:25 pm

Now on that we can agree. I think rebates are silly. If the car is really worth $2000 less than what the sticker says, then just lower the sticker and be more competitive. However, I can guarantee that will never happen with American autos because of 100 years of “horse trading”. No matter how GM prices the cars, the buyer will always demand a discount or a rebate or something ‘thrown in’. Saturn was successful at ‘fixing prices’ for a while, but I think they are back to old way of doing it.

Tell me you don’t ask for rebates or discounts on the cars you buy. I would find that hard to believe. Even if the prices were lowered by the rebate amounts. You would STILL ask for more off the price. That’s why it won’t work.

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+1 RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

LauraM — The process can be a lot more fun than what is being described here. Of course the salesman is going to say why your offer is too low. Generally it is good to start with a low offer and see what happens, being prepared to raise it a little later on. The salesman’s saying he can get a better price is logical and rational, and if true is a good reason not to sell to you. But in the end the dealer is going to sell to you if she can do so profitably, and the salesman (or woman) likely gets credit just for making the sale.

One just has to have patience and think in tems of how many days, not how many minutes, to get the best offers.

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Dan Petit Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

If the ebay experiment is used as a price support for the (tentatively priced) $40,000, then, I don’t think I would mind that at all. The Volt is worth every penny.

The hardest job I ever had was trying to sell cars.
People were at their worst when they were buying a car, it seemed to me, during those hard times in 1976. Although I was always polite, and was always completely a straight shooter, I just only managed to sell one car in that 6 weeks.

I would be ABSOLUTELY THE worst Voltec salesperson on the PLANET. Since I know it is worth every penny, I would be insulted if someone offered a single penny less if I were selling Voltec vehicles.
People expect all technologies to be perfected. We have for years enjoyed perfected technologies, until something better comes along where obsolescence makes something old be perceived as imperfect-as-to-purpose in higher standards newly-expected with advertising.

Maybe we will just have to see what happens, and just keep working hard toward that down payment.

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

Agree entirely.

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+1 StevePA Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:30 pm

If this was happening to GM in the midst of “normal” economic times and sales levels, I’d agree – adios GM.

As I’d mentioned many moons ago in a previous thread, given the state of the economy generally and what was happening to global auto sales specifically, IMO something had to be done beyond allowing capitalism’s usual economic darwinism run its course.

Whatever the causes of GM’s problems – and many would argue they did most of it to themselves – that people see the U.S. government’s involvement in GM as the sole reason to pass over GM as a vehicle source totally ignores the very substantial support (direct money, trade protections, loans) of several major foreign auto manufacturers by their governments – for decades. Not at all a level playing field.

Odd, isn’t it – the U.S. and Canadian governments decide to get involved on a short-term basis to save a U.S / Canadian industry, and suddenly GM and Chrysler are pariahs, and the US government is socialist. IMO, such a view naively ignores the historical context.

Could the involvement of the US and Canadian governments have been handled in a more timely fashion, with more protections for creditors? Perhaps.
In hindsight isn’t it pretty clear that if the two companies were left to the usual creditor / bankruptcy proceeding without government intervention, they’d be gone, along with a host of suppliers? As state governments went broke trying to keep up with all the unemployment claims on top of everything else the economy is dealing them, the recriminations would begin. Why didn’t the Feds help out?

The process may not have been pretty, it may have set some unfortunate legal precedents. My hunch is however the message sent has been pretty clear – GM and Chrysler were given a shot. My hunch is GM will make it, and the taxpayers will get back some or all of the GM money.

I have no direct stake (other than as a taxpayer) in GM or its suppliers. IMO Americans and Canadians who are peeved at the Feds and GM and take their business elsewhere – for that reason alone – are shooting themselves in the foot by lessening the chances taxpayers get repaid, and that they may in fact pass up a vehicle that would meet their needs.

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:34 pm

On ebay that’s often done by setting a minimum starting bid.

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:39 pm

The main reason at present for not buying from GM direct is that so doing is prevented by state law, as Mr. Lutz said. It is a kind of market control, by dealers. They do perform some useful services.

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

Many specialty cars have more demand than supply right at first, but things level out. The ebay mechanism, if it is useful, will be more useful once things settle down.

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Vincent Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 7:07 pm

Uncle Bob is in “Creative” arena. Sweet.
That means a killer Z/28 Camaro is coming down the pipe.
And with some luck the Vette in the Transformer movie comes to life Fast!

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firehawk72 Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 7:18 pm

I read your example and couldn’t help but think of my own experiences. I am a car junky. I have never gone to the dealership where I didn’t already know much more about the car I was looking at than the saleman trying to pitch it to me. I have been insulted more times than I would care to mention. Insulted in different ways, price, performance, discounts, you name it. Your “there must be a better way” is already there. My past three purchases have been through the internet ONLY. No talking to people over the phone, no getting inside there little cubicle so they can show you the four squares or whatever they are trying to pull, no let me check with my boss, or supervisor, or sales manager, or that price is not possible, or whatever, or that price is only good for today bullsh**t. My point is, I have dealt with some great honest salespeople that I would recommend to anyone, but I have also seen the worst of the worst take advantage of people in amazing ways (make sure you are educated on the buying process or you will probably get burned!!). Many of them are out of business right now too!! I could ramble on but by now you get the point. Buying over the internet is great. Just use some time to test drive vehicles, narrow it down to what you want, then go online with a realistic price target armed with all the info you can get…actual prices paid, invoice, financing if needed, rebates, holdbacks, …the works. My last three buying experiences have been great by using the internet. All I did was show up at the dealership, sign a few papers, and was off all in less than 30 minutes.

On a side note.

Screw California though. Why is it they get this new Ebay idea and will almost certainly get Volts before the rest of us. Isn’t there economy sucking wind anyway. I guess people can just write IOU’s for the Volts like the California government is doing. LOL

Hawk

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+3 Bryan Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 7:41 pm

eBay? I guess they are being creative, but I think this is a really bad idea. Mostly for the consumer. My experience with eBay, and auction bidding in general, is that many people end up paying more for a product than it is worth, and the “buy it now’ option also has a considerable margin added. I suspect the eBay model may help the company regulate supply and, consequently, profit margins. Can you imagine the bid price on a new Volt if it was on eBay and we have to bid on it? What about the rest of us playing by the rules and waiting in our unofficial line for 3 years so that we can support GM only to discover that we’ve been outbid on a $40k car? I know that I’ll feel cheated.

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+2 Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

When a dealer says, “someone else will pay more”. Then they will need to wait to sell the car to “someone else”. It’s not my problem, it’s their problem. I wouldn’t call this bad business practice. It’s more of a good old fashion stupidity issue.

I was never impolite to the dealers. All the dealer had to say is, “This car is worth more. Let me see if WE can work something out with my manager”. The dealer was the one who stopped the negotiation.

Feel free to give me all the minus one scores you like.

=D~

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 7:43 pm

“Even now, too much, IMHO, of the stimulus was spent on consumption (unemployment benefits, health care, tax cuts, etc.) ”
——————-
unfortunately so

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Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 7:56 pm

I’m sure many here have bought on eBay.

I have either bought or sold 200 times. 100% positive feedback by the way. The best way for a buyer to get a good price is to wait until there is an overstock condition.

Example: Four years ago I wanted to upgrade my PC to XP and also a higher speed CPU. At that time XP pro cost $200 as did the Barton 3200 processor. Then Vista arrived. I bought XP pro for $70 and a Barton 3200 for $119. Am very happy with the speed upgrade.

The eBay Volt will sell for $60,000. And It will be at least two years before the eBay price comes in under $38,000. This will be a result of pressure from competitive model sales and also a two fold jump in the battery capacity to weight ratio.

The 2012 Volt with a stock 40 mile battery will be your best buy.

=D~

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-1 statik Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 7:58 pm

This is sort of related…and actually a good move by Bob in my opinion (or whoever the GM crony was that decided to do it) in my opinion:

He/GM have decided that the G8 lives on, it will be rebadge as a Chevy Caprice. The G8 is probably (imo) one of GM’s best products, but it suffers from two fatal flaws, the first is image and name…Pontiac and G8 and the second is it is a captive import from Holden Australia. It would seem the first problem has been rectified…now to stop paying the HUGE premium on manufacturing them, and start making a profit.

/good move

(see, I can give out compliments when they are due, lol)

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-1 statik Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:03 pm

Also, in the ‘bad news’ category for Corvette guy, the second thing (or third thing…boy, he loves to talk) out of Lutz’s mouth today was on the Camaro Z28.

According to Automobile Magazine:
Lutz hinted “that the Chevrolet Camaro Z28 will not see production”

Lutz noted that the mainstream sports car formula will likely move away from big V-8s. He pointed to the V-6 Camaro that makes 304 hp and returns 29 mpg on the highway is a more realistic image of future performance cars.

“I think the V6 Camaro is probably a very good model for the future of the high-performance car in America….”
http://blogs.automobilemag.com/6558678/car-news/bob-lutz-hints-camaro-z28-is-dead-again/index.html

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Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

Laura, you are mixing apples and oranges. The only car dealership I know of which offers a set “ticket booth” price plan is Saturn. The others put the gloves on each morning anticipating conflicts with frugal buyers.

What do dealerships teach rookie sales people? The sale hasn’t begun until the first “NO” is heard.

The reason my wife bought her new car in 2006 is that the dealer said,”Wait, don’t go, I’ll get what you want TODAY”. He got the sale.

=D~

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RB Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

All states have lots of auto dealers, and they are in most every district in the state. Usually they are owned by people with influence, at least locally. As with other businesses (such as dairies) auto dealers have learned to use the legislature to cut out competitors. It’s all done in the name of “helping” the consumer, of course

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Herm Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:11 pm

The scary part (to dealers) is that you may start to get competition when another dealer 60 miles away offers a lower price.. on the other hand if you are the only Volt dealer with the optional Naugahide seats, you may command a higher price.

Car salesman have an important job, it is to talk you thru your fears of expending so much money and that you deserve this new car.. it is an important job.

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+1 Dan Petit Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:14 pm

Bryan,
I could not agree with you more.

At least this is a possible “stick” to use against the nay-sayers, (and the technically-unappreciative),
in that I really believe that anyone now attempting to hypothesize that GM will not be profitable, well, that would now be absurd.

Maybe GM, who has worked very very hard to bring us the Volt, believes, (as absolutely I do), that they should not have to deal with cheap-minded people who are unprofessional, when Voltec vehicles are available for sale, and, GM desires that those of us who truly respect the high value of the Voltec vehicle will FAR MORE LIKELY be VERY READILY available to buy one from where ever in the country, as a mechanism of fairness and true respect to GM, and also due to the concrete imperative regarding GM’s fiduciary responsibilities and duties to better repay the taxpayer-funded loans.

“Mr. Dan in down there in Austin Texas wants to buy this Volt for the MSRP at $40k.”

Yea, I would not mind being a leverage for GM to get the minimum they deserve (to also pay back the loans) for a Voltec vehicle. It would not only be the right thing for us all to do, but, your name on the “want list” could come up when you are ready, and cycle back around if you are not ready.

We could all be on “READY STANDBY”.

I think that would work very very nicely for us all.

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+1 nasaman Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:14 pm

Actually, eBay DOES have a car section ….it’s called eBay Motors, as Lyle shows in the photo insert at the top. I got an excellent deal on a Jeep 4WD Cherokee through them a few years ago.

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Herm Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

I think he called jerks those customers that come in the busines (the dealership) with a pre-conceived idea of what the profit should be.. and then they get upset when you dont play ball, it probably happens everyday and it gets to you after a while.

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+1 grat Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

I was actually a fan of Saturn’s no-haggle “here’s the price” policy. Being able to know exactly how much (down to the penny) a car would cost to take out the door made things much simpler.

Naturally, you could negotiate on the price of the trade-in, but realistically, the dealer wasn’t going to take a loss on your car to make a sale.

This idea that you have to “do battle” with the dealer to get the price you want, on an item that loses a substantial amount of it’s value the instant you drive off the dealer’s lot, strikes me as silly.

For instance, you refused to buy a car from someone because they wouldn’t knock $500 off the price– fair enough, that’s your option, but to put that in perspective, that’s at most, probably 3% off the price of the car. Given the demand for Hondas in my area, they can probably charge a few points *over* list and still sell all their stock.

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Herm Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:18 pm

You get the impression Bob likes cars.. probably the reason he is a better manager for GM that your typical MBA.

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Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

Hey, look who’s on their way over here to buy. It’s grat, he always pays FULL sticker. Yummy, start the grill guys.

=D~

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grat Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

I’m not sure how the BYD is managing greater range with a heavier, less efficient battery pack– oh, right, that range is only if you maintain a constant speed of 50km/h in electric drive mode. I drive faster than that in rush-hour traffic.

I’ll be interested to see how their quality control holds up– China has certainly improved their crash test results, but how long will their battery pack last? Based on what I’ve seen on this site (and others), I have reasonable confidence that GM will produce a car with a 40 mile electic range at highway speeds, and a battery that lasts 10 years.

You probably think the Prius plug-in hybrid will arrive before the Volt, and be less expensive… except that it won’t, according to, of all sources, Toyota.

Finally, GM’s debt was the issue. Not the cars, not the innovation (or lack of), or even the crushing of EV1’s. GM had too much debt to survive. They would have had to sell 16 million cars per year to survive, and it simply wasn’t possible. Even now, their survival isn’t guaranteed, but the Volt represents the best step forward .

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grat Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:43 pm

And this is why I hold car dealers in contempt. They are bottom-feeding scum who view their customers as “marks”, and then moan and whine when their sales drop because they’re pricks.

I suppose you’d rather be forced to sell your cars for *no* profit by customers who know what you paid for the car, and refuse to pay anything more?

The sad thing is, Saturn’s system worked better for the customers, and the dealers… but the average salesman doesn’t care, they’re overwhelmed by greed.

I don’t mind paying a fair price on a vehicle. I refuse to do business with thieves, however.

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Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

We could all be on “READY STANDBY”.

I can’t think of a better group to give the Volt a fair shake out of the gate. Positive word of mouth is priceless. Moreover, it’s the life’s blood of a manufacturer.

Good point DP. You earn a plus one.

=D~

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Edwin Mang Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:05 pm

Young Minds fresh ideas give them a chance Scotty .

Kirk to Scotty on Star Trek .

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+1 Dave K. Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

It’s the service and accessory departments that provide the cash flow. Each time an owner comes in for service they can’t help but look at the newer models. Mr Goodwrench gets his $60 an hour fee. Leaving $40 per hour to cover the dealers remaining overhead.

Work with the customer on price. He’s happy and uses your service department. Best part he’s happy. Did I mention that the customer is happy?

Conversely, charge the buyer the hardcore full MSRP. Get fewer of buyers. Watch the service and accessory people hang around the coffee machine. Have less lot models looked at. Watch as Toyota, across the street provides another free hotdog and burger super sale event.

yes we can?

=D~

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Rashiid Amul Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

I agree. I wonder what the logic is behind these laws anyway.
They seem to be anti-consumer.

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statik Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:47 pm

Just use the internet, or go to a dealer and say you get the employee price to get your base to start with.

It is not that hard to get employee pricing if you do the footwork, surf the web, find the loopholes…especially in this environment. There is always somebody, somewhere ‘living on the edge’…if not the manufacturer themselves.

As a example, here is a link to the GM Employee pricing (GMS), search the car you want, then take off whatever the rebates/incentives are and off you go:
http://prod3.gmautobuilder.com/BuildYourOwn/GMFamilyFirst.byo?priceformula=EM

Hey, here is a Cadillac STS:
V6 RWD MSRP: $46,845
Employee Price: $43,604

You’d look good in a Corvette:
MSRP $48, 565+ 950: $49,515
Employee Price: $$43,594

Or how about a 2010 Camaro V8(Style1SS)?
MSRP $30,245
Del/Handling $795
Total MSRP $31,040
Employee Price :$28,922
——–
/see that was easy
//apologies to Corvetteguy…it’ll just be our GM-Volt.com secret amongst friends

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an_outsider Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 10:27 pm

Yes, last 2 times, I paid +/- windows sticker price but it was from mfg that had net pricing tag policy (see my above comment under #12).

When I need a car, I usually do:
0) establish a budget
1) make a pre-selection
2) grab all information I need (specs, street price, other fees, etc)
3) start shopping. No hassle, fair net price tag works fine for me.

In 2005, it was a Toyota. I shopped first from dealer to dealer in my area and finally, I went online, configured the car I wanted, printed my shopper list and went back to the dealer. Find me this one at this price and you get a sale. Done.
In 1995, it was a Saturn (now, it is my son’s car). I went to the dealer, find me this model with these options and yes, they sold me a car that day. Before that … does not matter, it was too long ago.

in the 20th, catalogue & post office was a good combination for long distance shopping.
In the 21st, internet is the new catalogue shopper cart for remote customer. It also can be a self serve terminal at the dealer location, with real time stock check across the entire country, not only the dealer lot and/or build to order with “fair” net user price tag.

With all these new car dealers shut down by mfg and even If your closest dealership is not 1/2, 1 or 2 hours from your home, you need a real shopping alternative, don’t you think so? Be well.

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Vincent Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 1:08 am

I predict the Z/28 for sure comes out. Perhaps with a Twin Turbo V6….
But that’s all just fine.
It will still pump 500 horse or more with ease with and keep the fuel economy. Turbos are light and under normal throttle use no boost and maintain efficiency…unlike a blower that always drags on the engine.
Save this post. you shall see.

Also, I agree the G8 with a Chevy badge will be a hit.

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jeffhre Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 1:46 am

I don’t understand. If the prices are hitting 60K wouldn’t folks soon just hit the buy it now before option they were bid up. Unless the reserve prices are at 60K also?

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+1 Anthony BC Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 2:30 am

Say good bye to VOLTS for $40k!

GO EV!!!

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+1 Zach Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 3:09 am

Ebay? I buy nearly everything online (excluding food), but I would never buy a brand new car through ebay. It’s all about Craigslist for me. Perhaps that’s because of where I live. I live 25min from Seattle, but that’s a place I would prefer not to go, due to traffic… anyways, I’m rambling.

I seriously doubt ebay will work for GM or any car manufacturer.

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Herm Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 3:23 am

are Honda dealerships owned by Honda or are they independent entrepreneurs?.. if the later then they do what they must to keep their clients, including providing courtesy cars.. who pays for the courtesy cars? Honda or dealer profits?

This business service model will eventually go away with pure electric cars, they will be extremely reliable with little need of service, mostly replacement of major modules with the car itself doing its own diagnosis… ice cars today dont need tuneups as often as they used to, that was a major revenue drop for mechanics.. oil changes are also going away soon.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 3:24 am

Dan, you do know EREVS are a transitional stage on the way to pure BEV ?

(Quote)
Herm Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 4:21 am

“It’s the service and accessory departments that provide the cash flow. Each time an owner comes in for service they can’t help but look at the newer models”

I think you are right Dave, we could still have ebay sales and use the service centers to display new cars and offer demo rides.. The manufacturers would pay the service centers for this service.

If big dealerships go away, who would benefit and who would lose?

1. dealers lose of course

2. the public would spend less on cars, cutting out the middleman, and they also would buy fewer new cars. This may be good.

3. manufacturers may lose if they sell fewer cars, but also fewer cars sitting around in storage yards.. They would have to adopt flexible production lines.

I wonder why Saturn failed?.. was it the no-haggle policy and lack of pushy salesmen?

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 6:14 am

Herm.. I am not endorsing eBay. Just kicking the idea around.

The current options are an online buffet style purchase, a dealer haggle purchase, or a direct GM Volt dot com list purchase. The buyer mindset ranges from “won’t pay over $30,000″ to “MSRP is fine” to “eBay at $60,000″.

Which ever way GM turns they need to keep the needs of the buyer on the front burner. If the method of sale becomes overly complicated or unnecessarily cumbersome, GM may lose the competitive advantage.

Did someone say the drama had ended?

=D~

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+1 CS Guy Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 6:16 am

GM might turn this into a PR win if they offered the first Volt to roll off the production line (and ONLY the first one) on eBay with all the proceeds to go to charity.

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+1 joe obrien Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 6:40 am

eliminate car dealers period. Cars should be sold by the manufacturers and not sleazy car dealers. The shady car dealer is the #1 biggest pain in the ass about buying a car. Hence why ebaymotors and other online sites are so popular.

Radioshack for example has corporate stores and franchised dealer stores. You always get a better deal at the corporate store than the shoddily run franchise one.

Same with car dealers. WHY do we half to deal with car dealers anyway?

(Quote)
an_outsider Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 6:49 am

Agree entirely

(Quote)
+1 CS Guy Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 6:57 am

If there is such a law in your state then you should get a grass roots organization going to REPEAL that law. Who benefits from being locked in to a certain retailer to buy (whatever) product? Certainly NOT the consumer.

It was obviously put in place by crooked politicians lining their pockets from car dealer exorbitant profits. This is a bigger issue than just where you buy your car from. If corporate payola can corrupt your local leaders to dictate where you will buy your next car from then what rights do YOU really have? I thought people on this board liked free enterprise???

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:00 am

Joe,
There must be the high voltage specialists to service the Voltec vehicles that are GM Factory trained. While all other ICE technologies have independent shops that can offer service options for the customer, this would be a good time to go over to the Chevy store and begin to get to know the folks there.

They are hard-working people who must always always always have to deal with ever-changing new technologies, which, when one of them needs an adjustment or correction, THEY are the ones who always get the blame unfairly for new technologies that the “market competition” and new regulation force into autos.

Abandon all that negative hype about dealers, and, instead, think of your Voltec vehicle as coming from its home at a Chevy store. And, get the extended bumper to bumper warranty up to 100,000 miles for the extra $2k.

The very best thing to do is to get to know right now “who is who” at the local Chevy store (by being friendly and asking some questions very soon), and, while there, get into a new Malibu so that you can begin to know how a Volt will feel around you.

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old man Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:05 am

The thing I would fear the most from the elimination fo the dealers would be the loss of competition. why would the builder compete with himself in town A against town B or C. And why would one factory owned service center try to be better or less costly than the next one? I think we would have price fixing big time.

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:11 am

(sigh),

I’ll likely be left out too, but I’m still going to try as hard as I can.

(Quote)
GeorgeB Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:18 am

I think the EBay approach makes sense for a product like the Volt. GM doesn’t really have a sense of the true market value for the Volt, since it is a pretty radical departure from the automotive status quo.

At $40K it’s at the hairy edge of my price range, but I’ve believed from the get-go that the first 10,000 will go to rich guys in N.Y. and L.A. who can drop $50K without batting an eye, so they might even go for more than $40k for a “first issue” Volt. They will be collectors items.

After all, money talks and, if the early adopters will part with more money, they should have that opportunity. That’s life…..hopefully they will support the Volt at a level I can’t. Still, if I can’t find a way to get one of the first 10,000 ( I doubt it….I’m over 13K on the Waiting list) I’m gonna do it.

(Quote)
koz Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:23 am

Isn’t GM restricting it to California dealers? I doubt EBAY can or would restrict the buyer geographically.

(Quote)
koz Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:25 am

The net effect will be a reduction in the number of car salespeople if this is successful.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:26 am

Many of people who read and post here are not GM fans. But, we’re giving GM a long hard look and believe that an honest to goodness green daily driver is nearly here.

Rick W. and his string of misdirecting statements are gone. Much of NGMCO debt has been cleared. The new director is preaching a fresh, focused, and customer friendly platform.

There is plenty of competition in this marketplace. With many very good alternatives. We may have the usual higher pricing in hot districts. But I don’t see a problem with price fixing.

=D~

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CS Guy Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:42 am

I agree completely. I would love it if companies could work together to ensure maximum profit by making sure prices are high enough.

Anybody who does not want companies to be able to manipulate prices and control the market is just talking one of those “ism’s” and that is not the way America works today.

(Quote)
koz Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:46 am

+1

Extremely well put!

(Quote)
Larry McFall Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:51 am

ebay? Let alone having California associated with it. I believe having Bob on the job is good but GM needed an executive purge. If they decide to have their basic principles as GREED which makes them unprincipled executives, the new GM will be the same OLD GM.

I in deed want to see GM suceed and the VOLT be the US Flag EV so work hard and don’t mention California, say USA and Semper FI, Marine.

(Quote)
koz Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 7:56 am

The only prevents it when they have contracts with franchised dealers. This is to protect the franchisee’s investment in selling the automaker’s cars. This could have all been wiped out under BK but that would have been a whole other can of worms.

IMO this is a vulnerability they will have with newer competitors, e.g. Tesla, Fisker, and perhaps a Chinese or Indian company. Fortunately scale protects them from the smaller players for now.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 8:10 am

Statik, if your name was Dave you would get a minus one for presenting the hagglers case. Shame on you. Long live MSRP.

=D~

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CS Guy Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 8:10 am

Yeah, the car dealer doesn’t have to be just a GM Goodwrench service center. A “service only” GM center would only be able to service your vehicle and not add any value to the price of your vehicle at all. You’d be driving a $34,000 Volt instead of a $40,000 Volt. It could be a huge profit center with dealer markup on all the vehicles and it’s good for you because you get to pay the right price for your new vehicle.

Do not ever buy a new car from eBay, you won’t hardly get any markup that way. Who wants a $34,000 new car when they could a $40,000 one. That’s just crazy.

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an_outsider Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 8:21 am

After reading comments and some personal reflection, I’m stil unconvinced for the GM image to be a good move with their eBay motors experiment project. I agree with CS Guy comment under #32.

In 2 year or so from now, with a lot fewer GM dealers in the field, GM should try hard to find a legal way to handle online transaction for remote consumers on gm.com, to become a point of sale access BUT the final sale contract & delivery would be done between you and your preferred or closest dealer (I presume from a sale tax point of view, the dealer would have to be located in your state of residence).

About online pricing: imho the “no haggle” fair tag price Saturn policy HAD in the past, was the best way to go with MRSP.

Maybe, IF each individual dealer has the capability to load on gm.com their own online local “fair” net selling price, it may help to overcome the legal fixing price problem, if any.

Real time inventory check with options, over the entire country would be nice option when you feel ready to buy. From home (online) or with a dedicated self serve terminal at the dealer location. When no stock match your request, a build-to-order tool with lead time would be a good complement. But without a fair price approach, this kind of tool turn to be useless for consumer, dealer & mfg.

I believe a car dealer make a more profitable relation on the long term perspective with its sale and service dept. when keeping its customer happy then just its one time mark-up profit sale, It cost lot more to a cie to bring in a new customer compared to keep an satisfied existing one.

(Quote)
+1 Greg Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 9:23 am

Bob Lutz…………. please just disappear !! Go away! Go play with the grandkids! Stop unretiring! Let someone with new fresh perspective (not the “I’ve been doing this since 1963″) lead !!

(Quote)
koz Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 10:47 am

But what about the Vibe?

(Quote)
Vincent Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

Greg “since 1963 is but a breath in time”

Lutz brought the Volt through a “skunk works” team and persuaded GM to build the Volt.

He is also responsible for many historic, exciting cars…and most likely accomplished much more than many of us on this site. So you might want to give him a little slack.

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jscott1000 Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

You can already buy cars on eBay…I’ve bought 4 that way. I’m not really sure what is new here. I guess up until now only used cars were available for sale, and now it will be cars hot off the press.

It’s not going to be revolutionary until you can buy “built-to-order” cars directly from the manufacturer, like you can today with a computer or iPod.

(Quote)
statik Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

I’m always up for the path of least resistance to get what I want. I’m not big on ‘throwing down’ at the car dealership, lol.

I put a value on my time if I’m not doing what I want…ping-ponging all over the place, and spending hours haggling with salesman isn’t what I want to do, so it is a zero sum game looking for ‘deals’ if I waste too much time on it. (imo)

(Quote)
J K Rowling Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

OMG, I thought this yahoo died last year !

(Quote)
statik Says:
July 12th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

Good idea…but bad follow through lead to no margins on a decent seller.

Sidenote: NUMMI was the beginning of the end for GM when it started up in the early 80s…GM wanted to ‘learn’ the foreign automakers way to build cars, but what ended up happening is that Toyota learned how to make cars for North America, and that established Toyota’s first foothold on manufacturing/competing in the US.

(Quote)
+1 N Riley Says:
July 13th, 2009 at 9:55 am

I read Bob Lutz’s statement as him being very luke warm about the whole idea of internet marketing of automobiles. And, I must say, I agree with him. Dealers already have their cars up on their own sites and potential customers can do just about everything there except trade-in their old vehicles. So, just what this new program is going to do except curry some favor with e-Bay lovers and pay e-Bay some extra money, I don’t know. But, I wish them luck with it. Maybe they will turn it into a successful venture.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
July 13th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:28pm EDT

…considering bringing the Pontiac G8 full-size sedan into the Chevrolet brand…

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1321972120090713?rpc=44

=D~

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statik Says:
July 14th, 2009 at 7:39 pm

Reply to me, and to update (as if anyone is lurking way the heck back here). There are rumblings in Oshawa, and HQ that the G8 WILL indeed rumble back to life (as it was originally intented) on the Zeta platform here.

If this rumor ends up true, thats both of the G8s problem solved…and total GM domination for public service vehicles for the next…decade? ie) police cruisers

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GmsAJoke Says:
July 14th, 2009 at 8:24 pm

Its just one more link in the chain to raise the price you pay.

Either it is a fee paid seperate to ebay by the buyer, or it is a fee added into the price you see, the end result is the car now has that little bit of extra cost, plus the dealer needed fee to pick it up. Or did you think all these links do business for free?

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GmsAJoke Says:
July 14th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

Devolutionary you mean.

Okay, this guy order one blue with with option x,y,z,f,g,e,j,f,d
And this guy order red with option s,f,t,g,d,e

Oh wait, no that blue was supposed to have option k,j,g,d,r,t,l

Ahh shit, start over.

Assembly line procedures save money, ask Henry Ford Sr. You want option x, it comes with package B. You want to nickle and dime, its gonna cost you dollars.

The size of the parts and complexity in putting a car together cannot be compared to something as small and as easy as the lego block assembly of a computer or Ipod.

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GmsAJoke Says:
July 14th, 2009 at 8:50 pm

$2k for an extended warranty? Are you out of your fricking mind? Does GM really charge that much, because if they do that just means they KNOW the car is going to break down and they need to recoup something.

(Quote)
Tech News » eBay finds of the day: Vectrix maxiscooters Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

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Unretired GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz on GM’s New eBay Experiment

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