On June 12th I took delivery of MINI E #412. As of now I have driven the car over 1200 miles. Though this site is about the Chevy Volt, and that is the car I hope to drive one day, as an advocate for the electrification of the automobile I took the opportunity to get a hold of an electrically-driven car as soon as I could.
The MINI E is a small prototype car with spartan creature comforts, seating for two, and absence of any significant storage potential. It is purely a commuter car. It handles briskly and has a lot of power considering its 205 hp electric motor and small size. BMW has reduced immediate takeoff torque presumably to increase range, though they haven’t officially commented on it.
The 35 kwh lithium battery is said to deliver 100 miles of range. My daily commute is 26 miles each way; mostly highway driving with a smattering of suburban flow. I have found my true range is actually 70 miles. This is due to mostly 65MPH+ highway driving and the continuous compelling temptation of the immediate silent electric blast available from a stomp on the accelerator.
In short, I enjoy the car immensely, and derive great satisfaction from driving without gasoline and on US-made electricity. From a practical standpoint, there isn’t all that much difference between driving this car and a conventional one except that it is quieter, smoother, and quicker. It does make hybrids like the Insight and Prius seem like a thing of the past with their sluggish responsiveness and use of gas.
However, in support of GM’s raison d’etre for the Volt, range anxiety is definitely an issue. This has been especially true because even though BMW installed a 240v/32amp charger in my garage, the connector cord UL certification was delayed so all this time I’ve depended on a 12a/120v charger. This charger can only recharge the car at a rate of about 3.3% (3.3 miles) per hour, so it takes 30 hours for a full charge.
I was able to get my office parking garage management to install an outlet for me and let me have the electricity for free, but I’m only there for 4 to 6 hours on some days. The car is only in my garage about 12 hours. So considering my daily driving needs of about 60 miles I’ve had to cut it close from time to time, and not be able to drive that car at all some days.
Here is a range anxiety experience I wrote on my sister site AllCarsElectric.com:
I was leaving my home with around 60 miles of range, knowing my drive each way was 27 miles. I knew I could charge all day at my office so I figured I’d be OK. When I got there though, I found life had other plans. It turned out a power transformer supplying my office building and the whole block had gone down and my building was in a blackout. We couldn’t open the office so I had to return home. Nice surprise vacation right? Not so much. I had to figure out how to get home with about 35 miles of range left on the car, all highway and much of the way uphill.
I had to leave the windows closed to minimize aero drag and kept the AC, radio, and even plain fan off to minimize draw. I painstakingly feathered the pedal keeping the power line as close to neutral as possible. I snailed along the highway breathing sighs of relief for every little downhill I could regen on, all the while visions of being towed danced in my head. At my lowest point the mileage read 3 probably when I was about 6 miles out, but with regen and a prayer I made it home.
I have also developed a resourcefulness for grabbing every little charge I can along the way. Sometimes for a few hours I park in the hospital parking lot where I work. I’ve discovered these lots have 1 or 2 standard outlets in certain locations, and I usually grab a few miles of charge (see photo above). This is no big deal since mine is the only electric car in the lot, but what if there were several?
In conclusion, driving a pure electric car is fun and satisfying, but the infrastructure is non-existent, and range anxiety is real. People driving pure EVs will wind up getting towed from time to time. And until universal widespread fast charging is available, in my opinion the Volt represents the best near term solution.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, July 8th, 2009 at 8:37 pm and is filed under BEV, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+6
Jul 8th, 2009 (8:45 pm)Great report Lyle! It is really good to read a review I can truly believe. That story about being caught (potentially) without enough range to get home really underscores the problem with all-electric until they can get at least 200 miles AER.
+7
Jul 8th, 2009 (8:51 pm)I don’t think I have poste here before, but I have lurked for over a year. This is a great report about driving an all electric car. I am also in the market to buy a Volt at some point when they actually become available. I currently own a Civic Hybrid and get some great mileage out of it, but I really want an EREV…..and Camaro Convertible Z28 when GM starts building the Z28. The all electric needs to grow infrastructure to be a practical source for daily transportation. GM could put a 3 gallon gas tank in the Volt and no matter what, a reserve is available, just like on most motorcycles.
+6
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:01 pm)I agree, 70 miles of range and the absence of fast charging infrastructure inhibit the desirability of the Mini-E. Hopefully the charging cord issue will be resolved in the near future.
+7
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:20 pm)Really nice to see this article ‘cross-posted’ Lyle. Sure it isn’t a Volt…or Volt specific, but this is the stuff (although seemingly mundane) I personally love to hear about. The real world, on the ground, day to day stuff. This is the content I can’t wait to read about when the Volt itself is out (and hopefully in your hands as well).
Side note: That thing has a beast of a pack, so I’m sure your dying to get off the 12a/120v…that sounds ‘hella annoyiing. I think I’d be just driving it every other day, rather than trying to eek out 60 miles on a partial charge, lol.
+5
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:23 pm)…welcome to the ‘fray’
+6
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:27 pm)Lyle is sooooo right. Range Anxiety is real. The idea of an EREV gives that warm security blanket that you just wouldn’t have with a pure BEV.
I like BEV’s—I think the Tesla S is drop dead gorgeous, but a freak occurrence like Lyle mentioned, or even something less dramatic like being scatterbrained and simply forgetting to charge it overnight could sink you. How many of us have neglected to charge our cell phones in overnight?
The Volt is the most elegant solution I have ever seen for an EV and I hope everyday that GM can bring this car to fruition.
+5
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:42 pm)Keep on posting about your experiences. You’ve proved that changing the automotive world isn’t exactly brain surgery. Hey, wait –
+4
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:44 pm)The ability to fast-charge your car in 10 minutes, that will never happen. Too much power. You can’t connect a 480,000 watt cable safely. Simple physics. The dream of fast charging stations will stay just that – a dream.
+3
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:50 pm)70 miles instead of the supposed 100-mile range to lure in customers… it’s like being told that a car gets 30miles gallon, but gets only 22 in the real world. At least with a gas engine, it’s easy and quick to fill it with more driving distance.
+2
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:53 pm)Never say never… Microsoft once said you would never need more than 640k of ram
+1
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:54 pm)Seventy miles with a 35 kWh battery sure sounds disappointing, unless “65MPH+” is a euphemism for somewhere around 80. That wouldn’t be uncommon around here.
+3
Jul 8th, 2009 (9:54 pm)Another excellent post, Lyle.
So if your other car is out for service, and with the Mini being a 2-seater, who do you leave behind, the wife or the kid? Don’t answer that, you’ll only get in trouble!
Now, you had range anxiety driving home in the middle of the day with your cell phone probably at your side. How would you feel if it was your wife in the same situation only coming home alone (or with your son) on a dark, rainy evening? And perhaps some areas along the highway where the car might go dead don’t have great cell phone reception. Not a pleasant thought.
I’m sure EV’s are fine for some people, but it’s good to get honest feedback from someone who has lived the experience.
Thanks for all your input and keep up the good work.
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:00 pm)Good reason to make a small 2 seater convertible with lots of mileage.
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:01 pm)Not to criticize, but a 25-mile commute is much farther than average, and you extrapolate to everyone your range anxiety of only having a 70-mile range.
The “average” American commutes 14-16 miles*. There is going to be range anxiety no matter what (human nature), but a 70-mile range gives about a two-round trip range, plenty if you forget to charge one night or some power failure at work like you describe.
(* I haven’t found the federal data yet but have seen several references to it, I’m using this until I find the official data)
+3
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:04 pm)I wonder if Lyle could get 100 miles from pure city driving…Just a guess, but I wonder if EV range needs to be described with two numbers (City and Highway), unless the vehicle is very aerodynamic to help highway range.
+1
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:09 pm)Don’t worry. There is no doubt some other Mini E driver that will post he routinely gets 150 miles out of his. 70 miles is probably closer to what I would get too. I’m just not a hypermiler, nor do I really want to be.
+1
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:10 pm)Let’s just hope none of our automotive engineer friends decide to explore the world of brain surgery in their spare time… that could end badly!!
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:16 pm)Dave G.
Maybe you’re not an idiot, but you say idiotic things from time to time . . and then keep repeating them.
I see people hook up high power electrical connections almost every working day of my life.
You obviously never read the articles I referenced on this subject that I gave you back when, so why don’t you spend some time with google and see what’s being worked on ,and what’s available right now?
sheesh
+6
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:17 pm)This is one of the best blog posts that I’ve seen for a while (not complaining about others). It really makes clear in practical terms the range anxiety problems. You simply cannot rely on charging anywhere except at home, because one day that charging point at the office, hospital car park, etc. will not be available for any number of unforeseen reasons.
I’ve experienced range anxiety before, that was with my Honda VFR 750 motorbike, I cannot remember exactly what the range was but it was something like 120 to 150 miles depending on riding style.
In one case I was riding through former East Germany not so long after reunification, from UK to Poland (1000 miles). I wanted to stay on the autoban rather than get off and search for gas station. At the time there were long stretches without regular gas stations on the autoban (I’m sure there were plenty in nearby towns).
If I refueled at 80 mile intervals I would be safe but have to make more stops. So I planned to refuel at something like first station after 100 miles.
Additionally it only took a little inattention or distraction to miss a station.
I can tell you, it is not a nice feeling to have the engine sputter as you change to reserve (as motorbikes often have), without knowing if there will be a gas station within the next 15 miles — drop speed to 50 mph and tuck head and elbows in to make more aerodynamic! Even worse when you have been on reserve for 15 miles, feathering it to get to 20 or 22 miles on reserve. (What’s the German for next gas station in X km?)
With a BEV anxiety will be a reoccurring feeling.
-10
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:21 pm)(click to show comment)
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:23 pm)I think it most certainly needs to be described as both city and highway. I don’t think aerodynamics could justify a single number.
+1
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:23 pm)This is a great post to emphasize how important the charging infrastructure is. You’ll have to post again once the 240V charger is working. I imagine that if you had 100 mile range, and a 240V charger at work and at home, your range anxiety would be almost nonexistant. I’m sure it would be gone if every supermarket, restaraunt, parking lot, strip mall, or every few city blocks had a 240V charge parking spot. Hopefully we’ll start to see more dedicated charging spots in our cities. I think this is a great way to encourage early adoption. I’d feel better about the upfront costs of an EV if it meant that I could more easily park in the city and recharge at the same time.
+3
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:25 pm)It’s nice to see you living the dream, Lyle.
Your article serves as a reality check for those in love with the idea of owning a BEV. Take the advertised range, subtract 25% for safety’s sake, divide the remaining range by two (if you plan to get home after work), then pray the battery holds out long enough to get home if something goes wrong. Not everyone can plug in at work, and it takes only one punk kid with a camera and dreams of Youtube stardom to pull the plug out as a prank.
I don’t know where you live, but I’m currently stationed in Maryland. It can get really COLD here in January through March. How would your Mini’s battery pack handle a night at zero degrees, or lower? How much range would you lose?
I have to give GM credit – at least they are testing the Volt’s battery under severe enviromental conditions. Now, if they can just hire the best and the brightest college grads for their battery research center, and create the next big thing in battery tech. I’ve pretty much given up on EEStor.
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:28 pm)Lyle also said:
“Anyway, the arrival of my 240V charging cord later this week will bring with it the dream of 4 hour recharges and hopefully an end (or at least decrease) to range anxiety.”
/ Can you give us an update when you get the 240V charging in order?
+1
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:33 pm)This is correct, but what I think you will find is that an EV will be the opposite of an ICE vehicle, it will have lower highway miles vs. city miles.
Jul 8th, 2009 (10:53 pm)Lyle,
Can you keep a travel log like this guy did and post the results for a couple weeks worth of driving? Thanks.
Date / Miles driven / Starting charge / Ending Charge / % charge per mile/ Range Estimate/ Starting Miles to go/ Ending Miles to go/ Starting odm/ Ending odm / Brief narrative on the temp, wx conditions, type of drive, speeds
http://mini-e.blogspot.com/
-3
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:12 pm)I’m with Lurtz post #11
Thank you for trying a different electric other than the volt. Thank you for taking the time to document your real life experiences. As far as range anxiety you do fall outside of the typical commuter, as in less than 40 miles round trip. We’ve read all those studies that say majority of us commute less than something like the 40 miles to work round trip, blah blah blah. Well I’m one of those, lucky I guess, my one way commute is only 9 miles so the Mini would Rock for me with miles to spare. So that car alone makes perfect sense for a lot of people, a lot more sense than the … wait for it…. Volt.
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:24 pm)Yep, range anxiety sucks! The mini-E sounds like it is not practical unless you live fairly close to your job. At present the only practical solutions for electric drivetrain are Tesla’s huge battery, or a series hybrid like the Volt. But even with a range like Telsa, there are still range issue drawbacks, like the extremely long time it takes to recharge, and the possibility that you run into some unforeseen situation that tests the limits of your range. When you’re out of juice, you’re really out of luck. In the end, the only practical solutions for the common man are series hybrids or EEStor.
+2
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:25 pm)To get to work, the average commuter travels approximately 15 miles one way. Two out of three commuters (68 percent) reported a one-way commute of 15 miles or less, 22 percent traveled between 16 and 30 miles and 11 percent traveled more than 30 miles2. (see figure 2)
Bureau of Trasnportation Statistics – October 2003
http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/entire.html
6 years old, but that’s what Google said
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:32 pm)Correction… Telsa Roadster charges in 3.5 hrs with its 16.8 kW charger. Why doesn’t miniE use something like that?
+1
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:38 pm)6-8,000 is better than 12-16,000. But he will also be getting 50 mpg during those 6-8,000 miles, which is nothing to sneeze at and it seems like except for those freak entire city block power outages like he experienced, he should be able to recharge at work just fine, and for those unlikely power outages events, well, that’s what the range extender is for.
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:39 pm)That is neat, but it totals up to 101%……
I guess that extra 1% must be the people that walk to work…..
+1
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:47 pm)It has not really been mentioned, so I guess I will do it.
If the Mini-E with a 35 KWH battery pack is off by 30% of the advertised range in real world driving, what do you think the “real” all electric range will be with the Volt with a 16 KWH pack and only using 8 KWH???
GXT @ #14 hit on it a bit by saying Lyle would get 28 miles in the Volt. That is 70% of the 40 mile AER the Volt is supposed to deliver.
It will be interesting to see what we all start posting as our AER when Volt’s are in our possession…..
And BTW – Great Post, Lyle!!!
+2
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:49 pm)I deal with large voltages/amps everyday. I plug/unplug 50amp connectors all the time.
8000 Watt Hours / 240 volts/ 50amps = 40 minutes for a full charge.
If you just need a quarter-charge that would be 10 minutes.
This is only at 240 volts. I typically deal with 480 volts which would cut the time in half.
I dont think connectors/cables are the problem, but the rate at which the battery can accept a charge. However we have seen postings on this, specifically research being done at MIT.
When you say “never” to you mean, by the year 2010, or do you actually mean “never”?
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:50 pm)Lyle,
Is there some reason why you didn’t call an electrician and have him come out to your place and make a power cord for you that will handle the 240 volts ? That is the first thing that I would have done .
+6
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:52 pm)There is quite a bit of variability in mileage and some are getting more than 100 miles per charge (one claims ~120). There’s a bunch of blogs out there detailing the joys and also the problems with these vehicles – check out the blog rolls on http://mini-e.blogspot.com/ and http://mymini-e.blogspot.com/.
That said, it seems that range anxiety is on most of these bloggers minds no matter what their range is. The Volt alleviates this concern and stands out as having the best chance for wide adoption among common folk.
+3
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:52 pm)“It looks like he will still be driving 6-8,000+ miles/year on gas unless he can find a reliable way to charge at work. There’s something ironic about how the Volt is a less-than-ideal solution for the guy who started gm-volt.com.”
This statement is so rediculous, I don’t know where to start.
It must drive you to drink to try and find the negative spin for all things Volt, and the positive spin for all things import.
Lyle puts forth a good faith report about range anxiety, and we get the statement above from you??
So sad….
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:55 pm)The 40 mile AER to my understanding was never mean’t to indicate highway miles.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:03 am)However it does raise the rather interesting question of how the Volt will get 40 miles from 1/2 of 16kwhrs …
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:17 am)Actually Lyle is the perfect Volt customer. He can get a full charge at work, getting him at least 54 miles AER per day. He’s going to save a fortune in gas, and so he is the most logical early adopter given that economics is a strong (strongest?) consideration for most people.
As I’ve said before, if a person is only doing 20-30 miles per day, why would he/she pay so much for all that battery? Just get an efficient ICE. This person is not a good candidate for the Volt if economics is a principle driving factor … at least not until battery costs have come way down.
For now, the best Volt economics will be obtained by someone who needs to use the range extender for part of his/her driving every day!
GM, are you listening? Your marketing approach needs tweaking …
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:19 am)I’m gonna be devil’s advocate and say that exceeding the Volt’s range would be a GOOD thing, no matter how pessimistic you are about the range actually reaching the stated amount.
As they say, “YOUR mileage may vary.” If Lyle is such a lead-footed, jack-rabbit launcher, brakes-smoking every 1000 yard inefficient driver, he’d get awful range in a gas car too. As long as he’s doing it in an electric car, then all the better. If he exceeds the Volt’s range every single day leadfooting it to and from work, then there’s no battery range “left on the table” — he’s getting the full benefit of the “EV” part of the car and supplanting the full 9000 gazillawatts, ergs, joules or whatever’s worth of gasoline per trip. So much better than the grandma who takes the Volt for one 3-mile grocery and church trip every Sunday.
Unless your point is that battery-powered travel is worse than gasoline. But it wasn’t..
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:28 am)Someday you may not need 9000 gazillion megawatsis to get to where you’re going. It could be that personal vehicles become very light (with safety and speed and comfort equivalent to cars today), to the point that bicycling-levels of energy are enough to speed you where ever you need to go.
Consider how unbelievable cell phones and the internet were 50 years ago, or planes and nuclear power were 100 years ago, etc.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:32 am)Ditto Lyle, way to go, THX!
GO EV !!!
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:36 am)Hmmmm? Ironic? Hmmmm?
+3
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:41 am)For some the VOLT will be the best choice and for others a BEV will make more sense. That’s the beauty of so many choices in 2 years!
GO EV!!!
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:45 am)Correct, only 40 city miles with highway miles running less than 40 before generator kicks on.
GO EV!!!
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:49 am)I don’t understand where people get arbitrary numbers like 200 miles and say that’s the universal magic number???? Some have said they would have range anxiety with the 300 mile version of the Tesla Model S, and others have said that the Volt’s 40 mile all electric range will suit their needs just fine, and with out ever needing gas.
I find all these end of range anxiety prognostications to be annoying when right now there are many ICE vehicles to satisfy various needs, how can one range number satisfy every need in the entire future of all electric vehicle users?
Well OK, if you said 500 miles on a battery that costs less than than an ICE, then of course you would be talking my language
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:58 am)Now, you had range anxiety driving home in the middle of the day with your cell phone probably at your side. How would you feel if it was your wife in the same situation only coming home alone (or with your son) on a dark, rainy evening? And perhaps some areas along the highway where the car might go dead don’t have great cell phone reception. Not a pleasant thought.
________________________
I bet you could tell some great tales sitting around the old camp-fire —— on a dark and rainy evening —— a contemporary classic if there ever was one!
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:58 am)Even on my busiest day, 70 miles by myself in a commuter car like that is more than enough. Any road trip longer than that would involve the wife and kids… that’s where her car would come in.
So, I’m thinking and all-electric Camaro or Cruze or Spark or even an Orlando would be really cool if it has at least the solid 70 AER you speak of.
+6
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:14 am)As I’ve said before, if a person is only doing 20-30 miles per day, why would he/she pay so much for all that battery.
___________________________
Some of us just think that having some of the brightest minds on the planet explore for, extract, refine and market oil just to burn it along the highway at huge worldwide scales is dumb. And sending bright talented well trained young troops to fan out over oils supply lines to at times die fighting intermittent wars to ensure it’s flow, really is just a plain stupid way of guaranteeing our enemies have the resources to attack us.
And for some this is just enough incentive to drive electrically, with a big battery, for commutes even shorter than 20 miles.
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:15 am)This is what Better Place plans on doing in just a few years. Of course they swap out the battery first. That way they can connect the battery safely in the battery bay and achieve both high voltage and high current to get the job done.
Never? Ha! How about in in the same year the Volt gets into production (2011)? Fast charging IS coming, one way or another. Many people think 1 MW is too huge. To anyone that deals with industrial equipment the most reaction you will get is a yawn.
Sure, you don’t want grandma near the thing but as I described, she doesn’t have to. When fast charging becomes a very safe process you can just have a robotic system get the job done without ever taking out the battery. No problem, the already demonstrated swap-stations work great. Yawn.
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:19 am)Don’t forget Better Place. They are already installing massive amounts of infrastructure and will be up and running by the time the Volt hits the showroom floor.
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:21 am)Electrician? How about Home Depot?
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:47 am)Exciting Lyle! Keep this kinda stuff coming!
+8
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:03 am)Cause between his two websites and friggin brain surgery, Dr Dennis is just not that busy. Some people are hard to please. Keep up the great work Lyle!
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:10 am)Well Kevin I agree with you, it is not only with cars but I also develop “range anxiety” … with my cordless screwdriver, land mower, mobile phone, etc.
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:12 am)It’s too bad they aren’t using the Zeta platform for more, not only would a Voltec Camaro be great, I think a Cadillac based Zeta in the same spirit of the Converj could be quite the performer.
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:22 am)The Mini is falling short with a true range of 70 miles. Still a good step forward.
=D~
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:22 am)Well, I don’t agree totally
Moving to electrification will simply shift the problems you have listed above.
You need materials to build your battery (currently lithium), and you need to produce the electricity required to fill it in. On a mass scale vehicle electrification, you will never be able to get rid of nuclear, gas and coil plants to supply enough electricity. Simple math equation is required to get to this evidence
And additionally, if vehicle electrification occurs on a mass scale, I’m 100% sure we will suffer a big collateral damage: electricity price inflation. Because electricity demand will dramatically grow up, the price of it will tend to scale up in a tight correlated rate. This is market offer and demand rule. We will not only pay more for the juice you put in your car battery, but as well for having our homes, enterprises, shops, street lights, and so on, working.
On a side note, if you want to avoid pooring your money to “enemies”, you need to cut the dependency to them, and this require, imo, three things:
- Shift on a better energy carrier (in terms of efficiency, ecology, …)
- Increase efficiency of everything that uses it (light, transport, machines, etc)
- Teach people to be happy with less (Which I believe it is hopeless, human nature…)
My two pence
-3
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:09 am)BEVs are a decade or two from practicality. Period. End of Story. More than likely a new better chemistry beyond Li-Ion is needed.
By the time they are practical, we won’t care about fuel or fuel prices. The Oil Cartels will have collapsed. We won’t be importing much if any, and that led to the Demand and then Price collapse.
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:20 am)Correct, if you keep into account u aim for a full recharge for a totally empty battery, which will not occur as often as you think.
Imo, a senseful solution is the charge on opportunity. If you’re able to soft charge (standard outlet power) your car each time it is parked somewhere, the chance you’ll find yourself in the need to be towed will lower accordingly, depending the usual route you aim for.
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:00 am)The speed you drive makes a huge difference, the acceleration also has an effect but not as much.. just slow down until you get the range you want. Lyle may have gotten better range if he had just gotten off the highway.
The number of .250kwh/mile is widespread in the EV world, that would give Lyle’s Mini a 128 mile range.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:05 am)A better number would be a chart showing range vs. car speed… Thats why many EVs get better range in city driving, it is the slower speed effect.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:18 am)Thanks for that link Kevin..
” Normally when I’m driving the MINI E if I punch the accelerator, I immediately get a very quick burst of acceleration and have to hold onto the steering wheel as torque steer pulls the car heavily to the left. But at a stop, when I press on the accelerator, there is a noticeable half second delay before I get even the smallest amount of acceleration, and even then the acceleration isnt anything to write home about. Then once I get moving, maybe at 3mph or so, the full acceleration kicks in and I have to pull my foot back on the accelerator. ”
Wow!, that car has serious power… BMW is attempting to tame it with software.
+4
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:22 am)Nostradamus? is it … you???
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:06 am)Last week (oil @ $70) the Wall Street talking heads said, “The world economy is showing signs of strength supporting a higher price on oil”.
This week (oil @ $62) they are saying, “The world economy is showing signs of weakness. Price of oil slipping”.
Hum… 11.5% in a week? Looks like it’s all about manipulation and mindset. Someone in the news room is making a lot of money.
=D~
+6
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:43 am)I agree completely with Lyle’s statement above, “People driving pure EVs will wind up getting towed from time to time. And until universal widespread fast charging is available, in my opinion the Volt represents the best near term solution.”
ATTN GM: Marketing should be preparing to promote the Volt’s fully-redundant propulsion/energy systems…. 1) its battery & 2) its generator. Thanks to this inherent redundancy Voltec virtually eliminates the likelihood of ever needing to be towed!!!
PS GM: Slightly off topic, but Ford is already hyping the hybrid Fusion’s range as “over 700 miles”! The Volt needs to at least match this 700 mile range!!!
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:46 am)Doesn’t the car have some kind of weirdo ANSI XK.3.VDR.321.Whatever connector? I doubt you can find it at H/D…
You might have better luck at Radio Shack!!!
HAHAHAHAHA!
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:54 am)Hi Lyle,
How can you drive the battery only car without a portable generator? GM Volt is the solution for now until rapid charging station available in every petrol filling station or a much higher energy density battery available.
+12
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:57 am)nasaman:
I normally agree with what you have to say, but I really disagree about the 700 mile range thing.
The Volt needs to advertise that for most people’s daily driving, it will use NO GAS! And unlike any other BEV, it can still be used for taking long trips with great mileage. That emphasizes what is different and better than the competition
The ICE’s, BEV’s and all paralell hybrids will have no retort for that one….
JMHO
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:02 am)Ughh… Please don’t slow down until you get the range you want. In most places–everywhere probably–you are expected to drive the speed limit or higher; otherwise you will piss a lot of people off and might even cause a hazzardous situation.
Sorry… but It’s true and you know it.
+10
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:17 am)I agree with Jim I on this one. I think 700 miles is all well and good, but realistically no one is making and/or not making car purchasing decisions on this number. I don’t think I have ever even asked, “well, how many miles will this car go?” I’ve always viewed that as more of a PR stunt gimmick.
I have no problem with GM upping the tank to provide a much larger range, (actually I would prefer it…something like 8-9 gallons) but I think it isn’t necessary thing to do.
+3
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:25 am)…you forgot the 5 miles of running everyday, (=
(I’m just funnin’ with ya carcus)
+4
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:27 am)I agree that range is not a huge factor in the decision process. I have a 98 Olds Van, however, with a 25 gallon tank that easily gets 24-25 mpg on trips. The 600+ mile range is a big deal to me. I just left for Ocean city, MD from the DC area for the 4th. I drove down, drove around, and drove back without thinking about gas. This is a nice feature and I now consider it in my vehicles. My Colorado goes about 300-400 miles on a tank and I feel like I am always needing to stop for gas.
Chevy is boasting abou the new Equinox range numbers as a selling point in their literature.(18 gallon tank, 32 mpg highway = 576 potential miles). Although I agree that if I really wanted a car and it had low range I would buy it anyway, range is still something that I have learned to appreciate and I do look for it now.
I think the real question for this thread is whether or not the Volt will be able to actually get 40 miles electric for the average driver. Is 40 miles some ideal that could be met or is it somthing that will be met in real usage. It seems to me that many people don’t get the actual mileage claimed for their cars and now it might appear that people will not get the electric range claimed for their electric cars.
For the VOLT, how bad will or can this be?
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:33 am)480 times 1.73 (the square root of three) times 100 amps equals about 80 kW of charging capacity. Lets assume 60 kw, for a “fast charging” station, a three phase 480 Volt outlet used in industrial facilities. This would be able to fully recharge the Volt in about 8 minutes. Not sure what the SOC window for the Mini-E is but it is at least 25 kWh and would take about 30 minutes to recharge. Now if a BEV had three times the capacity, say 75 kWh, it would take about one and a half hours to fully recharge.
So I could drive from San Clemente to say Indio and stop at a Casino and relax for a couple of hours, then drive on to Phoenix with my 200 mile plus BEV provided the road side gaming and entertainment facilities invested in a fast recharge facility. And like in Oregon, they could provide an attendant to make the connections and monitor the process to preclude tampering.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:36 am)Totally off topic but interesting
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/showpage/Chinese-Copycats.aspx
Also I must admit, that Lyles post demonstrates some issues that can come up with a pure BEV. What if power was out at the primary charging station (home)? he’s stranded…
options one, suck it up
option 2 buy a ICE car
Option 3 VOLT!! (has both 1 & 2 in a single vehicle.)
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:38 am)Lyle, the 4th paragraph of this article says it all
And I’m certain that most people will feel the same way once they actually experience a Plug-In Hybrid or a pure battery electric vehicle (BEV).
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:48 am)Let me get this right. You typically make 1/2 megawatt connections every day, sometimes with rain or snow dripping all over the place, and you are still alive? I doubt it.
+3
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:50 am)I’m actually trying to help Lyle increase the size of his grey matter.
Slow Motion Chain Saw Juggling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbMvxLRdpm0
+3
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:52 am)To fast charge a 200-mile SUV in 10 minutes, you will need 480,000 watts. That would be 1000 amps at 480 volts. So the kind of connectors you deal with every day are relatively low power compared to what we are talking about here.
By never, I mean never – at least not the way most people think of it now.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:54 am)Gregski Says: …my one way commute is only 9 miles so the Mini would Rock for me with miles to spare. So that car alone makes perfect sense for a lot of people, a lot more sense than the … wait for it…. Volt.
With a 9-mile commute, wouldn’t it be just the oposite? The Mini has a much bigger battery than the Volt does, and you would be using only a fraction of it on an average day. At this point in time, that additional 19 kWh of unused battery in the Mini is going to cost you way more than the Volt’s ICE.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:57 am)Yes, not unusual in many industries.
It may take a while to be safely done in a residential situation, but fast charge can be readily accomplished in stations set up for that purpose.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:00 am)Lyle — thanks for a great report, with all the details we care about.
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:03 am)We keep in mind that range anxiety is being discussed in the context of a charger that is not working right, so Lyle was not able to leave home with a full charge. It’s the same as leaving home with a gas gauge just above Empty.
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:03 am)It’s these kinds of stories that I need to better understand what the future will be like in a all electric world. Thank you for the insight into our new world.
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:04 am)The car has 70 miles realistic range, but remember he left home with it only partially charged.
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:08 am)Indeed there are issues with electrification, but they are lesser problems and more readily addressed as compared to ICE/gas.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:09 am)Given up on EEStor?
Why would you do that?
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:11 am)Lyle is in the group most helped by the Volt, as he uses the full electric range every day and thus gets the full benefit of its battery.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:13 am)Car and charger system probably belong to Mini, rather than Lyle, as the car is experimental.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:14 am)Falling sort, or an aggressive driver at freeway speeds?
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:16 am)If the news room was making lots of money, they would not still be in the news room
Their issue is always being one day behind, rather than one day ahead.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:30 am)Lyle,
Thanks for the execellent personal experience data. It’s simply amazing that some people can STILL find a way to be sour. BTW, do you do lobotomies?(lol).
Be well and kepp us “posted”,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
+5
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:35 am)Lyle,
Thanks for the report, but even more thanks for taking the chance and doing the MINI this year. I know the 70 miles is not what you expected, but everyone should remember we have to start somewhere. If the car got 250 miles most of us on this site would be driving it.
I’m proud / impressed that Lyle is actually doing this when it’s not easy. In 20 yrs when he’s sending his daughter/son to college in an electric 350 mile range SUV he’ll say…”I remember when you could only drive 70 miles DOWN HILL in these things and it was a 2 seater”. His kid will role their eyes and think…”Here we go again with another dad back in the day story….”
Way to Go Lyle.
Todd
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:44 am)There are ways to get er done, Dave. Even the ridiculously high number (480,000W) you’re talking about.
You seem to not enjoy reading much, so here’s a 3 minute video:
Meltric Decontactor Series Video
http://www.meltric.com/html/decontactor-video.html
/That 10 minute quick charge would be on a battery of over 100kwh capacity — you realize that, right?
// The contactors are NOT going to be the weak link in a “quick charge” infrastructure.
+5
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:47 am)Hate to say it but with the Volt at least 3 years down the road before I even see one in Central Alberta Canada.. I going to be picking up my 2010 Fusion Hybrid by the end of the month…
Sure it costs more than the Prius or Honda ($35000 + taxes Canadian) but I will drive it till the Volt arrives… As mentioned above …. the Volt is going to have to come up with some super milage numbers to stay in the game.
+6
Jul 9th, 2009 (8:51 am)In the parking garage of my office, where I spend at least 6 hours per day, I have a 110V outlet installed at my assigned parking spot. I paid $150 to have the management company install it and they are allowing me the electricity for free.
When I get my Volt, I will drive 27 miles one-way to work. I will charge it during the day and drive 27 miles back home. No gas.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:13 am)Well not quite, with the gas gauge just above empty there is still a nearby gas station. I suppose you could pull into some nearby residenal neighborhood and see if you could bum some power……
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:27 am)You can drive 55 on the slow lane, its patriotic.. Jimmy Carter said so. You can also get off the highway and just drive regular streets, your range will increase.. do this when you run into something unexpected and have range anxiety… the Mini can probably go 200 miles at 35 mph.
Lets face it, the Mini is not very aerodynamic (or at least does not look it)
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:28 am)Li Metal batteries promise a ten fold increase in energy density. they are not practical yet but IBM and several others are working on it.
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:34 am)I think Herm is saying that slowing down from illegal speeds to the speed limit will improve your range significantly – go figure!
And let me make sure I understand your infinite wisdom – “you’re expected to break the law otherwise you might piss people off and cause a hazardous situation.” Wow, brilliant. Next time I’m on the road being tailgated by some a$$hole, I’ll be sure to exceed the speed limit to keep him happy. I’m certain driving the speed limit makes people safer on the roads and it saves fuel to boot. Unfortunately, many people exceed the speed limit and approx. 40,000 Americans die on the road every year. The same people that speed complain they don’t get the advertised mileage – I have no sympathy. I always do the speed limit when driving – my car gets 20% better mileage than its EPA rating while the lunatics whiz by…
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:37 am)If the Mini is getting 70 miles when they say 100 I also wonder what the Volt will get. Normal driving 25? I hope GM (like me) is conservative with the numbers and 40 means 40 with the air on and radio playing.
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:41 am)You could always carry one of these in your trunk.. keep the windows open.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail§ion=P2GG&modelname=EU3000IS&modelid=EU3000ISAN
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:47 am)Absolutely!
As much as I’m curious about the “Electric” driving experience, Lyle’s ‘change of plans’ is exactly why I would not put my wife/self in that sort of situation.
I very much like the idea of using much less gas but I live in Canada and it gets cold here in the winter, sometimes dangerously so. Running out of battery could be a very bad thing.
No range extender no thanks.
I’ll take my Volt in silver/blue!
(Mostly to tick off my black car in the shade friends!)
-1
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:49 am)not worth the cost
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:51 am)Great report. Thank you for sharing. I just hope that the Volt gets more than 28 miles AER in the real world.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:54 am)As a practical matter you’re absolutely right. My guess is that if two people in any neighborhood in the US put in anything remotely resembling a ten minute charger the transformer will blow. I’ve seen this when people start installing central air, and central air isn’t in the same league as what we’re talking about. Ditto for commercial and office spaces with different numbers — the wattage we’re talking about here would be five or ten times larger than what the average office is wired for.
Plus you have the problem that the grid isn’t designed to handle loads like this. Plus you have the problem with the cells not being able to handle such a fast charge.
While never is too long a time frame for anything, anyone who says you’re being idiotic simply doesn’t understand the the basics. Your points are well taken. For those that are interested, here is a very short article that makes the case for and against the commercial case for fast charging:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/electriccar-maker-touts-10minute-fillup
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:59 am)Bingo! You are definitely not being the devil’s advocate. In fact you should get a prize for figuring out that the best case for E-REV is when you fully utilize the battery every day. If you’re going five miles a day you should get a Prius.
+3
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:11 am)“In short, I enjoy the car immensely, and derive great satisfaction from driving without gasoline and on US-made electricity.”
That sentence, I believe, is why we are here reading this blog every day. Amen, brother!
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:11 am)DonC discusses “two people” “transformer will blow”
————————————————–
That’s way overboard. Plenty of high-power electrical use exists today, just mainly in industrial and commercial sites. Utilities are happy to supply such power, by and large, as it is their business (how they make money).
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:15 am)Electric range vs speed.
Tesla wrote a very informative piece regarding this, it also applies to the Volt and to the Mini.
Note that the Roadster gets maximum range at a speed around 12 to 22 mph, and it gets over 400 miles of range at those speeds.
400 miles !!!
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
Granted the motors and controllers are different for all these cars, and are optimized in different ways but the important thing is that power usage and range in BEV are MOSTLY determined by speed and air drag.
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:15 am)“with the gas gauge just above empty, there is still a nearby gas station”
——————————————-
Actually on my route to work, about 8 miles, there is no longer a single station. There used to be, but they were done in by new multi-wall gas-station tank requirements plus zoning restrictions that did not allow the scale of new construction that would have been required to meet the environmental standards. Of course, there still are stations in the general area and one can go to those and fill up as usual, but those stations are several miles off track, so one has to have time to go there.
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:16 am)I’m thinking this is not going to happen. You’re using about 320wh/mile … in the summer. Expect this to go up, perhaps significantly, during the winter. You’ve got 8kWh available in the Volt and you need to go 27 miles, so for a gas free commute you’d need to use less than 300wh/mile. Unless you’re willing to tailgate tractor trailers it’s hard to imagine you’d be able to have a gas free commute — and you definitely don’t want to be doing that.
But this is really no big deal. So you use a gallon or (gasp) even two gallons of gas a week. (probably more like half a gallon). What’s the problem? You’ll be fully using the battery pack and saving a ton of gas. From an economic point of view this is the best possible case, so your use will be perfect! (Far better than if you were going five miles and never using any gas.)
+4
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:18 am)gd84 said: And let me make sure I understand your infinite wisdom – “you’re expected to break the law otherwise you might piss people off and cause a hazardous situation.” Wow, brilliant.
There’s no reason to be rude. If you aren’t willing to acknowledge the fact that almost no one drives below the speed limit, and the people that do are generally regarded with derision, then you are in denial. As to the paradox that driving below the speed limit may create a hazzard, I suggest you get on any major highway in the United States and and drive below 55 and then tell me that driving below the speed limit isn’t dangerous.
Also, please don’t misrepresent what I said. I said the “speed limit or higher;” I didn’t say you were expected to break the law.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:18 am)I guess we will see if it’s worth the cost. So you think Shai Agassi should not even try out his dream? What are you afraid of? It’s already fully funded and being installed as we post.
The more options we have the better. Better for the consumer means lower prices.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:21 am)Same website, but this is a complete education on range issues in BEV.. this will come in handy in the years to come.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
Energy Loss Distribution:
To understand why these curves have the shapes that they do it is helpful to examine where the energy actually goes. For simplicity we will group the energy usage into four “buckets”:
1. Aerodynamic Losses (drag from the air over the body of the car and through the front radiator)
2. Tire Losses (aerodynamic and rolling drag from the tires)
3. Drivetrain Losses (Inverter, motor, gearbox, bearings)
4. Ancillary Losses (12V loads, cooling fans and pumps, lights, etc.)
Each of these loss components has very different characteristics and is affected in different ways by making real world changes to the vehicle.
1. Aerodynamic losses are almost entirely determined by driving speed. The other issue to keep in mind is that these losses are determined by relative wind speed over the vehicle — not necessarily the speed over the ground. So if you are driving into a 10 mph headwind, it is nearly the same as driving 10 mph faster from an aerodynamic loss point of view. As you can see from the graph, this can have a huge impact on overall Wh/mile with even very small changes in wind. It is also important to note that, because the loss is not linear with air speed over the car, you cannot “zero out” the effect of wind by driving in a closed loop course the way you can with elevation changes. Driving into the wind for 1 mile and then turning around to drive downwind for the same 1 mile (all at the same speed) will use more energy than driving the same speed with no wind over 2 miles. Even a direct crosswind will slightly increase forward moving aerodynamic losses due to its interaction with the body shape.
2. Tire losses are mainly determined by the weight of the vehicle and the rolling drag of the tires themselves. For the Roadster we have chosen tires that offer a great combination of low rolling resistance and traction or grip. The air pressure in the tires has a large effect on this rolling resistance, grip and the overall tire loss. Higher pressure gives lower rolling resistance but a harsher ride and degraded handling. The above modeling is done at 30/40 psi front/rear. You can expect about a +/- 10Wh/mile variation with a +/- 20% variation in tire pressure. Similarly, by reducing vehicle mass you see a proportional reduction in rolling loss. So if you reduce total mass by 1% then you would reduce rolling loss by about 1%. In the configuration above, 1% equals about 30 lbs. So it is good to make sure that you are not “accidentally” carrying extra weight in the trunk or elsewhere if you are trying to get the best range possible.
3. Drivetrain losses include those that the user doesn’t typically control: the efficiency of the motor controller, the motor itself, the gearbox and generally all losses in converting the DC electricity from the battery pack into useful torque at the wheels of the car. This is proportional to speed due to spinning losses in the gearbox and motor and also proportional to power output due to conversion losses in the various subsystems.
4. Ancillary losses are caused by all “other” electrical loads in the vehicle, particularly the 12V cooling blowers and pumps, the 12V radio, internal and external lighting, etc. For the modeling above, we assumed that there was not heating or air conditioning load, but if there were it would show up here. These losses are somewhat different than the others because they represent a roughly constant power draw on the vehicle regardless of speed, winds or elevation changes. Because of this, they cause the energy usage per mile to start becoming high again at very low speeds. This effect would be even more pronounced if the heater or A/C system were operating. Likewise, the impact of ancillary losses is extremely small at high speeds because the primary propulsion power is very high and these small power draws make a relatively tiny contribution.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:21 am)BEV will not be for everyone but it certainly would work perfectly for my family and I guess the term YMMV certainly goes here. I have a little difficulty understanding why Lyle says he gets 70 miles on a charge but then has anxiety about a 52 mile round trip, all this on a vehicle that claims a 100 mile range. I wonder if this is just a cute way of ribbing the BEV concept and putting bonus points for the Volt here in the Volt dedicated site. I’m just musing here but it seems valid.
Anyway, he does make one point that I have been trying to make and that is auto makers should be working to achieve 100 actual miles AER affordable for the “common person” and 250 or 300 miles AER for special applications (luxury model, frequent use vehicles, heavy duty applications, etc).
We definitely need legislation in the US to stop subsidizing the gassers by allowing them to freely pass most of their cost of operation onto the taxpayers (right now gassers have a free license to cause expensive health issues and 60,000 deaths each year due to their pollution). I say there should be a per mile tax on gassers to recoup the actual costs they push onto the rest of us. The funds generated from this tax could only be used to fund clean transportation like electric cars, serial hybrids like the Volt and electrically powered public transportation.
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:22 am)I would like you to meet a friend of mine. His name is Jerry Rig.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:22 am)One last quote, sorry.. the money shot:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
“One clear driving “tip” to take away from this is if you are ever nervous about making it to a given destination: you will do much better to slow down instead of speeding up. I’ve talked with many people who intuitively think that minimizing time to the destination will also minimize the energy usage, but just the opposite it true!”
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:23 am)“This would be able to fully recharge the Volt in about 8 minutes”
—————-
..and another Volt every 10 minutes or so.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:24 am)My bet is that in a perfect situation the 40 miles will be achivable (medium speed secondary highway) but since all our usage patterns will be different our mileage will vary.
A safe bet that if your normal driving habits right now in your current car meet or beat the rating for said car then you will likely do the same with a Volt. If however, you routinely get less than the car is rated for (jackrabbit starts/speeding/driving up mountains etc…) then you will likely get less with a Volt too.
This ain’t rocket science.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:25 am)80kWh divided by 10 minutes (1/6 hr) = 480,000 watts.
That’s over 2000 amps at 220 volts, or 1000 amps at 480 volts. Any way you slice it, that a LOT of power, way more than that connector in the video.
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:25 am)Does that put you in Red Deer Ray?
The new Fusion is a good looking car, I’m sure you will enjoy it!
Rob – Calgary
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:27 am)Why did you select the Fusion over the Prius?
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:30 am)Precisely what I intend to do. I travel almost 50 miles one way to work every day. I intend to use up the battery in the morning, charge all day, use it up again going home. ~80 miles no gas, 20 miles on the ICE.
This is clearly the best way to use the resources in the battery. Nothing will be wasted, every day I use the car. No range anxiety, no problems. The perfect and efficient solution. Why is this so hard for some to grasp?
Of course, the rest of my argument would be that if you are only going 5 miles a day, buy just about any car you want. Nothing will really cost you much. Those aren’t the driven cars we need to replace with electrics. Not if you want to make a difference, and not just an eco statement. Its the cars like mine that do 100 miles a day, every day.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:33 am)That is certainly a wonderful rose coloured thought.
However our current known laws of Physics make some of this sentiment, however wonderful a bit unrealistic.
But PLEASE don’t get me wrong! I’d love for some smart cookie(s) to open a new door and change the rules!
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:37 am)I’d like to thank Lyle for being an early adopter here, and helping to get the bugs worked out for the rest of us!
It’s a great report, too!
+3
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:38 am)I’ve never been towed in thousands of miles of electric vehicle use and my AER is way, way less than 200 miles.
It’s good to have a backup plan and to have a couple of alternate locations at which you can recharge near your most frequent destinations. For the foot dragging gassers on the thread, think of what you do when your favorite gas station is closed, out of gas, or has such huge lines as be unusable (those have all happend to me). You go find some nearby alterante (and enjoyable) refueling place as a temporary backup. Yes, it takes time but not a huge effort to find those locations, develop relationships to make them work for you and establish some new habits. It’s really an incremental and ongoing process for me, and I have to regularly re-educate staff in parking garages, etc. as turnover occurs. After a year, everything feels pretty much this is just my normal day and you listen with a startled recall of forgotten memories when folks say things like “can I catch a ride with you after work – my car’s in the shop getting an oil change today”.
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:39 am)Go peddle your BP filth someplace else, this is a Volt blog! *
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* Note: this was intended in a humorous way
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:43 am)They were manipulated.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/business/global/03oil.html?scp=3&sq=oil%20futures&st=cse
So now they’re trying to regulate the energy futures markets.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124696097259205141.html
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/regulators-to-consider-limits-on-oil-contracts/?scp=4&sq=oil%20futures&st=cse
Personally, I think position limits are a good idea to prevent cornering the market. But I also think we should raise the capitalization requirements . The amount of leverage in the futures market is insane. This increases volatility, which is exactly what we don’t need. We need consistency so people can make appropriate investment decisions.
-1
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:47 am)Then what you need is a BEV that actually gets the mileage stated by the manufacturer and with a 60 mile range (or 70 mile range, in case you want to run an errand or two after work).
You state that you get 70 miles range with the vehicle but inexplicably were so full of anxiety when you had to do a 54 mile round trip. 70 minus 54 still leaves 16 miles range left unused.
When you are driving your gasser and the gas guage gets to 1/4 tank just as you arrive back at your home at the end of the day, do you break out in a sweat and start hyperventilating? “OMG! I only had 16 miles extra when I arrived safely at my destination. What will I do?”
I guess I just don’t understand all the “range anxiety hawkers” here on this board. Even if you have .01 extra miles by the time you reach your destination and can plug the vehicle in I don’t see what is the difference between that and having 300 extra miles you aren’t going to use.
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:48 am)What kind of electric vehicle do you drive?
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:50 am)I’ve never had a moment of range anxiety with my high performance electric motorcycle, but perhaps I’m the exception that proves the rule? By all means, purchase the expensive, heavy safety blanket of an onboard generator with fuel for it, that you get with the Volt, if that eases your pain and you feel that’s worth the extra cost (in weight, so less performance, if nothing else).
I suspect that different folks want different things and that the Volt meets many people closer to where they at now than a pure EV does. That doesn’t means that pure EVs don’t work for anyone. Mine does for me.
If you have a Volt for couple of years and find that you never use the generator, you’ll probably want to trade it in for a full EV. Otherwise, why not stick with Voltec until range is large and dirt cheap in EVs and recharging/swapping is fast and ubiquitous.
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:58 am)Boy howdy, I can certainly understand where that comment comes from!
Personally, I have not given up on the idea of a non-chemical and/or supercapacitor energy storage unit, like the EESU. I’ve just given up on EEStor delivering it at consumer-friendly (that is, “bought by anybody but the military”) prices anytime soon.
That’s not a slam on them, BTW. They have, if nothing else, raised the visibility of the idea to heretofore unheard-of levels. Yeah, their delivering on the promise seems to be lacking. But eventually, I think somebody’s going to capitalize on the concept in big way.
-2
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:00 am)I remember once I arrived safely at my home in my gasser car and I had only 1/4 tank of gas left. But I could refuel my gasser at home so it did not matter to me at all. I didn’t get range anxiety like you big strong men here on this board.
I agree that public charging for electric vehicles needs to be greatly expanded and charging posts or charging lots should be as common as Starbucks were before they started closing down a bunch of locations. But let’s inject a dose of reality here, Doctor. I’d have far greater anxiety driving a gasser knowing that every mile I drive is polluting the air and causing asthma and directly contributing to cowardly terrorists bank accounts so they can train and recruit more 12 year olds to strap a bomb on their chests. These infidels and cowards don’t have the faith in God to strap this bomb onto their own chest. They’ve decided that women and children are the ones who need to die. And every mile you drive in your gasser car pays for some jack wad to gain access to more children to murder. How’s that for OMG!
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:00 am)My BEV is already perfectly practical for me. Any improvements will be frosting on my cake.
/biting tongue hard to not flame at ridiculous statements
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:03 am)I apologize for my tone. Please don’t misrepresent what I said. I did not and do not recommend driving below the speed limit. However, you seem to be in denial that driving “higher” than the speed limit is breaking the law/unsafe. I just find the irony irresistible when people start talking about the “hazards” of driving below the speed limit and yet the hazards of driving above the speed limit are forgiven, ignored or denied.
Sorry for being harsh. I can understand being derided for driving below the speed limit. However, where I’m from, I am cursed and honked at and very much derided while cruising in the right lane doing the speed limit! This, I just can’t understand. Perhaps it’s that denial thing you mentioned.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:05 am)Sorry Herm… humor FALE*!!!
* Note: This was ALSO intended in a humorous way
Now quoting Texas,
>> The more options we have the better
AMEN! Energy diversity, coupled with electric drive, FTW!!
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:05 am)I’ve had several bouts of range anxiety with gasoline cars, too.
During one particular instance, I was heading from Morgantown West Virginia (practically in the southwest corner of Pennsylvania) to Blacksburg Virginia via US-19. It’s a remote and beautiful road (except for the occasional scars left over from mountaintop removal mining), and it even crosses the New River Gorge. The gas gauge in my 1989 Ford Tempo was broken, the car didn’t have a trip-mileage indicator, and I’d also discovered an exhaust leak earlier in the trip. I thought I had enough fuel when I left Morgantown, but I didn’t really know — and I drove for nearly an hour without seeing any lights that weren’t mounted on vehicles. Let’s just say that I was very glad to see a strip-mall with a sketchy-looking video store when I made it to the outskirts of Beckley. And I’m really not into either strip-malls or sketchy-looking video stores.
It’s a beautiful drive, though, and I would recommend it to anyone — even if you just want to look at the gorge. The bridge across the gorge is nonremarkable from the roadway, but the arch is quite beautiful from the park below. Just drive something other than a Ford Tempo — and fill up the gas tank before you leave!
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:06 am)I also commute 45 – 50 miles a day.
My initial plan is to go ahead and burn gas daily as long as it remains available and relatively inexpensive. If there is a way to force extended-range mode (some of the early Volt interior mockups show a “Hold” button), I’ll engage it at the on-ramp of the brief highway portion of my commute. If I forget, no biggie. This will keep the engine in shape, the gas fresh, and keep the battery down to 1 cycle per day.
When gas becomes less available and/or more expensive, I’m sure they’ll let me recharge at work (there’s a 220-volt outlet near the loading dock, even).
When I recently needed a car to bridge to the Volt, I looked for one which got the best mileage possible using more-or-less conventional technology, without sacrificing safety or other intangibles (the money I saved over a hybrid will go towards the future Volt purchase). So far, I’m meeting or exceeding the mileage (with automatic) of my old straight shift Saturn SL2.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:06 am)This is great that Lyle can provide these BEV “benchmarks” so that “real life” issues can be learned by all. “Informed Consent” means you are able to more likely know what you are considering buying in BEV with Lyle’s extremely-important data.
(Got to get right back to work).
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:08 am)You are absolutely right, as long as there isn’t a power failure.
I’ll take the Volt with it’s perhaps limited electric range but with the ability to keep going when the battery runs down.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:09 am)The point you’re missing is that if you only have 16 miles of range and you’re driving an ICE you pull over to a gas station and five minutes later you’re off with a full tank. You don’t HAVE to get home (in fact you wouldn’t want to get home since you probably don’t have a gas station in your garage).
With an EV you don’t have the option of filling up between most points. Doubtless when cars first came out everyone driving an ICE had the same range anxiety. Today I know people with CNG Civics who have the same range anxiety which is why they don’t take these cars on trips.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:10 am)No hoping required. That’s entirely in your control.
If your real world is lots of stop signs, red lights and heavy traffic and a light right foot, it will get more AER (most real world daily commutes and around town errand running).
If your real world is lead footed speeding on uncongested interstates with high speed limits, it will get less AER (rural Texas on a long and infrequently taken recreational road trip).
Your range may vary. The absolute biggest factor in range is user behavior, so this is an opportunity for folks to take reponsibility for their own behavior.
I hope Lyle finds and takes scenic, interesting routes that keeps him off boring interstates. That one action, completely in his control, will boost his mini E’s range in a major way.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:14 am)Hey, a fellow Texan. I voted you a plus because I don’t see why you were dinged for that comment. In Portland, San Francisco (and more I probably can’t recall) Project Better Place is installing charging posts for EVs.
As others have commented, the Volt and other quasi-gasser technologies will be the best choice for some. But a good number of us (and in truth the majority of Americans) would do just fine with a reliable BEV that actually gets the mileage claimed by the manufacturer. There obviously needs to be testing of these mileage claims as well. Just saying YMMV won’t cut it.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:16 am)I think in time PBP will prove to be a cash sink.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:17 am)Maybe what it really is, is that not enough overnight sleeping oxygen is getting absorbed (for the brain).
Seriously,
I can tell when a new student is not thinking with sufficient sequential-technical-context-processing due to nasal swelling from not breathing well when sleeping.
I suggest that Afrin all-night pump-spray, and, in about 2 weeks they are not grumpy, and, can follow a long sequence of listening without interrupting or appearing like they have ADHD (which otherwise may be normally recessive). (Do studies on it, you’ll likely see highly significant percentages in controlled studies).
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:34 am)I think it will work very well in small countries with very expensive gas, and it will definitely work in Israel. Israel craves oil independence for some strange reason.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:36 am)I’m glad you have found a combination that works for you.
However, having seen way too many bikes smeared all over the road I’m extremely unlikely to get one. I have a wife and children and there is no way I’m piling the whole family on a bike.
(I’ve seen it done and no thanks.)
The Volt will keep me and my family warm and dry and safe.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:38 am)Lyle,
I honestly enjoyed reading that. I could actually feel you sweating it out when range anxiety hit. Good job with the description.
You nailed it. Without the electrical charging infrastructure in place,
Voltec is the way to go. A person can get away with needing only one car.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:39 am)Looks like Pike Research is predicting 1.7 million PHEV’s globally by 2015.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/07/pike-20090708.html
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:41 am)It’s completely irrelevant to the discussion of range anxiety (apparently that can happen with gassers in remote areas where there are farm houses with electrical outlets, but no gas stations) and learning how to locate multiple recharging options, but as I’ve stated here many, many, many times, I have a highway capable high performance electric motorcycle (motorcycles are 10% of all new US vehicle sales each year) that can beat muscle cars off the line. It’s not a current model year, nor a top of the line model, but it works great for me. I don’t often mention the brand name (but have a few times) because I don’t like to play favorites as there are many choices with new ones coming out all the time and it’s better if folks do their own research to learn what’s available and coming out, as different folks have sometimes wildly different preferences and can be quite opinionated about them.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:44 am)I guess you’ve never researched how the fast chargers would work. Fast chargers will be pieces of equipment with a large number of capacitors. The fast chargers themselves will charge over time off of a 120 or 220 volt line (or higher in commercial sites). So there is no HUGE drain on the grid. It’ll be like someone was using a dryer.
When you get home and need to go somewhere fast? Plug it in 10 minutes and you’re off. It will recharge the rest of the day for use tomorrow.
Faster charges make a lot more sense in commercial areas though (like a gas station). You pull up to an electric pump and plug in 10 minutes, pay, and you’re off.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:44 am)And the size and complexity of the bills they send to those customers reflect that!
As you know, the contracts covering megawatt-scale electrical feeds can be complicated. It’s not exactly something that a regular homeowner (even me) would want to deal with. But, then again, I guess a charge-station who utilizes the services of professional accountant would be willing to deal with that — and that’s the real issue.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:47 am)/HEH HEH, hope you didn’t hurt yourself!
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:48 am)Because his job occasionally requires him to drive to several locations during the course of a normal workday.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:48 am)This is of course assuming the battery can take a charge that fast without melting down…
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:48 am)This graph has been cited before but it’s truly informative. The most interesting point of this graph — note that it tracks Lyle’s energy use for the Mini-E quite well — is that at higher speeds how little energy use is attributable to weight and how much to drive train losses. Very few people get this point.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:54 am)Precisely!
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:55 am)Solution to the problem:
A switch
When you plug the cord in you simple hit the on switch. Also the plug will have AC so it’ll need to be converted to DC in the vehicle. This will also prevent all 480V/1000amps from surging the entire system… and if it doesn’t simple design the vehicle to have a variable resistance. At first have a high resistance and once the stream of power is verified to be good, the circuitry simply lowers the current. This all happening within milliseconds of course.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:06 pm)Assuming that the battery in question can take a charge that fast without damage then the corner “Charge Station” can setup the accumulator infrastructure. This will not be cheap to setup but MAY be a way forward.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:11 pm)I have no problem with Shai Agassi trying out his dream. I think it’s a waste of money, but its not my money, or the taxpayer’s money. But maybe I’m wrong.
And I’m for anything that could increase EV usage.
Besides, as far as I’m concerned, the more charging stations the better. Hopefully, they’ll be compatable with all electric cars. So, that when the Volt and long range BEVs render the battery switching stations obsolete, we’ll be left with something actually useful.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:12 pm)The order in GM bankruptcy has become final.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090709/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_bankruptcy
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:14 pm)lol……
All this talk of fast charge with umpteen anps at boatload of voltage is kind of funny.
OK guys, remember each cell, now i’m talking of lt at the cell level because it is the limiting factor of each string of a batt pack, has two things that govern the charge rate. OVC (Over Voltage Cutoff) and Max charge current. Typically you NEVER want this to be over 1C of any cell.
The Volts cells look like the cells are 35-40AH @ 3.5 or 3.6VDC. Typical charge voltage per cell would be roughly 3.9 – 4.25VDC where typical OVC is 3.9. You can apply 4.25VDC to charge because current flow to charge will drop the voltage up untill it is close to fully charged then OVC kicks in, charging stopped. This is where the BMS stops all charging as soon as just one cell reaches this voltage, then balance occurs.
Now the most GM will probably ever allow is going to be 1C, that s 35-40AH simply to keep life of cells within their 10/100.
This is STILL much more than a standard home 240VAC socket can handle. So a typical house will never reach 1C of charge rate.
I highly doubt GM will allow a higher rate than that till G3 when Manganese nanotube is a commodity.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:18 pm)Doctor: You write the car’s mileage to charge read ’3 miles’ . There are two units of measurement 1) BMW’s recommended point of charge and, 2) State of Charge. I assume you were reading unit of measurement #1. The Li-ion chemistry you have BMW no doubt considers proprietary. Whatever, use the 80% point of the battery pack capacity as full charge and 30% as the best engineering compromise point for charge. That said, your #1 reading is actually an indication of when BMW wants you to charge. NOT the maximum mileage the battery power in reserve. Check me on this, we’d all be interested if BMW allows the latter to be deduced. FYI: You write the 120 VAC charge rate is 3%. You might do a bit better if you do eliminate that 50′-100′ 120 VAC cable – I see you’re using a convenient coil-control. Maybe have that handy for emergency. I’d also suggest using no smaller than a #8 120 VAC. Find an electronics cable contractor who will make up a couple nice cables – which BMW should have supplied. (It will be of course more expensive compared to the Home Depot extension cord in the picture) Best regards …
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:24 pm)CS Guy,
It comes down to risk and how much you are willing to take…
The Volt will be the new car, therefore my wife will drive it most of the time. (The electric range is likely to be better than with me driving too!)
However, if she were down to .01 miles range left when she got home from work with no range extender she would call the car crap because of the worry created (she would be frazzled!) and refuse to drive the car in the future. This of course doesn’t include the very chilly evening I as the purchaser of said car would endure.
As I see it a BEV ONLY having in the range of 16 miles left when you get home would be an absolute bare bare minimum for wide acceptance by the public.
How often do you need to ‘pop’ to the store after you get home to pickup something for supper? In my world it’s common.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:26 pm)Funny, a 40AER BEV Car (freeway capable) will work perfectly fine for me. Twice more than I really need. Got a plug at home and a plug at work. 240VAC at both places. So why wouldnt it work????? Period?
With you there EVO.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:27 pm)Do gas pumps work during power failures?
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:28 pm)It’s leased.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:30 pm)Oh, man! Don’t you people have to pee? I am not going to drive 700 miles non-stop! Nice marketing copy but in the real world most people will take some sort of break a few hundred miles sooner!
Great article Lyle. It confirms everything people with a little EV experience and common sense can figure out. The EV1 was a bust because of limited range and no fast charge of any kind. Your Mini is an EV1.5 (still two seater but the EV1(.5) came with Nickle-metal hydride batteries giving it a (wait for it!) 70-80 mile real world range just like you’re experiencing with your “100 mile” range Mini. So yes, until EVs have a real world range of 200+ miles an EV will never become mainstream or even a second car.
For all those that hate GM for “killing” the electric car, the Volt represents lessons learned. EREV and Voltec will be a bridge technology to a pure BEV and until then represents the only electric car technology that people will buy and be happy with.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:31 pm)I do hope I’m wrong but I see business failure written all over PBP.
I don’t question their motivation just the implemention.
This model DOES however solve the overheating battery because it’s been charged too fast issue.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:35 pm)“In the parking garage of my office, where I spend at least 6 hours per day”
You work full time 6hrs?!?!?!?!?!?!
Maaaaaannnn…
I’m in the wrong business.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:37 pm)Have you ever tried a “light right foot” in New York city? Everyone gets in front of you! And it takes three times as long to get anywhere! (Or at least, it felt that way after about an hour on the highway the one time I tried it.)
Also, I guess this means I’m going to have to use the range extender a lot more than I expected on weekend trips…
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:38 pm)Except for the fact that there is usually a gas station within 1-2 miles from where you are at the time. I know there are exceptions regarding distance.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:38 pm)Speaking of “air”, with electric cars accessories that use significant power are suddenly an issue in a way they didn’t used to be. Has it become time to try and use more passive control for the interior’s climate? Can the top be insulated better, as well as the doors? Somewhere I read of a plan to use more reflective glass, especially the upper parts of it. Is it possible to also create (I don’t know what it’s technically called) a chimney effect inside similar to what some attics use for cooling, where there’s openings for air at the top and bottom of the interior, the hot air thereby being encouraged to lift out through the upper vents?
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:40 pm)Great story!
I’ve been there too! Not the same road but on a long dark highway with the needle near “E” a ’78 Ford Capri in my case.
The difference is that with a BEV you have a multi hour wait to ‘fuel up’ when you find a spot where a ‘gasser’ is tip top and good to go in 5 minutes or less at the pump with current deployed technology.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:41 pm)Look carefully at the variables involved in range and there are many factors that can make range vary wildly. The Volt changed radically from the concept after being put in the wind tunnel. Well ironically if you live in an area with strong head winds, the wind tunnel gains and more will be lost even fairly light headwinds.
As was said earlier speed is a huge factor. Example, although Tesla’s Roadster is EPA rated at 244 miles, it can be over 400 miles for a steady 17 mph crawl, or for racing conditions on the track as little as 75 or 80 miles of range. So depending on temperature, road conditions, speed, starts stops, regen opportunities YMMV !!!!!!!
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:41 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Good point dude!!!
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Well put statik.
The good… electric drive is fast and smooth
The not-so-much… in real world usage battery capacity as we have often surmised is not quite there yet.
All in all an interesting adventure into electric commuting!
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:45 pm)Let’s see, an electrical storm, a kite, 1000 feet of cable,… Yep, that should get ‘er done.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:47 pm)Man, I sure am glad you weren’t my teacher in college bro!
I’m ADD and I had 3 jobs while in school. Fell asleep many times in calss.
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:48 pm)So Capt…
Do you know if it is true that if I drive my Volt 35 miles to work, charge it throughout the day, and then drive it home 35 miles and then charge it at night (and of course repeating the process every work day)…
My battery life will be essentially cut in half?
Void the GM battery warrantee of 10 yr./150k miles?
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:50 pm)Isn’t it 40 miles EPA cycle?
If uncertainty combined with complexity is frustrating don’t read the following. GM has also stated there is some flexibility in that 40 mile number due to “firmware” programming. An example of that was given with the cars control systems recognizing, I know I’m close to home so I’ll take a little more power out of the battery to complete the trip all electrically.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:57 pm)Dave G.
Do me a favor. Call Meltric corporation and order the item in the link I’m providing. When it gets to your door in 3 to 5 business days, get a sharpie and write on it, “Never is Now”. Place the 600,000 watt plug and receptacle on your desk for a daily reminder of what is possible.
http://meltric.dirxion.com/WebProject.asp?BookCode=mel09flx&SectionIndex=0&PageIndex=125#
/or, you can write on it “carcus1 was right” , that’ll work too.
-1
Jul 9th, 2009 (12:58 pm)The BYD from China has a battery that lasts about 375,000 miles. At the current average of 15,000 miles per year that would be 25 years until it needs replaced. The car gets about 183 miles per charge and runs about 93 mph. I am sold.
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:04 pm)no room in the mini
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:05 pm)No risk no fun, next thing they’ll have us using seat belts and helmets and try to eliminate unregulated interconnected financial instruments sold by insurance companies with AAAA ratings and unlimited risks.
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:08 pm)Nope. You’d probably have to double that because there’s actually twice the battery in the pack. That’s why their able to theoretically achieve the 10/100 or is it 10/150?. It’s assumed that very few (20%) will actually fully drain the batt pack more than twice a day. Essentially the batt packs BMS is designed to “Short Cycle” the pack so what you as the driver percieve as a full cycle is in fact half a cycle.
Some in the DIY world don’t even consider half a cycle as anything.
One other impact in batt pack life is how hard it is drained. If you were to regularly street drag hance demanding 7C discharge rate on a regular bassis then yes, you will degrade your batt pack. 7C is my max calculated discharge rate. I am pretty sure that it’s much more than that. That is just the rate of discharge to achieve 150HP from the 400VDC batt pack. But some say it’s 336VDC.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:10 pm)The difference being that my current gas car goes for somewhere between 400 and 500 km on a tank and I fill at half tank. So if the power is out when I start thinking about getting gas I have ~200km range before I have an issue.
For those who run the tank to dry, well any money saved in not carrying the weight of the fuel can easily be taken back by the price of a replacement fuel pump.
————————————————————-
Filling at half tank ‘may’ be a northerner thing… in the winter an empty gas tank tends to accumulate water vapor and can freeze the fuel line. This turns the car into an expensive statue! So I’m habituated to fill at half tank all year round.
————————————————————
BUT… let’s say Lyle didn’t have a power failure at the Hospital but 10 minutes after he gets to work he has to run to another centre in a hurry to perform some magical doctor deed and the battery is depleted. (10 minutes charge@110v just ain’t going to do it)
Now what? He ends up borrowing another doctors BMW 540 to get there that’s what.
A Volt wouldn’t flinch at this scenario. This is also why a BEV ending up with next to no surplus range at destination is unacceptable to most people.
You can replace the magical doctor deed with a magical dad deed picking up your son or daughter unexpectedly, or getting a call from your mother/dad/relative and you need to go now and NOT in 5 hours.
The cool thing about the Volt is that you have the best of both worlds.
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:11 pm)Best driven and can only achieve this at 35-45mph. NEV speeds. Other than that range and performance is degraded. Still a descent attempt though. I’m not gonna turn my head away from it.
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:13 pm)Yeah but can you state it in 7 words or less
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:14 pm)KentT,
I think you’re dead on. About 3 months ago I took an informal survey on this site as to what pure EV range would need to be for people to buy. (Assuming the car cost is similar to it’s gas competitor) As I recall 200 miles had alot of people say yes and 250 + the number really took off for prospective buyers. The key assertion in your statement is “Mainstream” and I think your correct. 200 + miles takes out a ton of range anxiety, but you also have to get 240V 40 amp charging in my opinion as the standard.
Lyle said BMW could not get the cable, but what I don’t understand is that 50 amp 120/240 volt cable exist so why did they not use some off the shelf standard cable..??
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Gen-Tran-RJB06410/p977.html
Todd
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:14 pm)You are right Anthony BC.
As long as all one does is commute back and forth to work the BEV might just work for them.
For the rest of us who get out of town and chase children down at their various far flung activities we need the flexibility of Voltec!
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:14 pm)I agree with stas peterson %100. Except in the meantime the millions of folks who have commutes equal to Lyle’s or less would be able to save billions of gallons of gas if they were using similar electric cars. And also, I have no idea what will happen to the oil cartels. Yeah, besides that %110 agreement
And I don’t know what or how much we’ll be importing. Ummm, I can’t predict demand either.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:17 pm)I have to say, this is my favorite thread because it has real world experince and scenarios and everyone is jumping on to post their ideas, comments, theories, calculations and arguments.
I’ve never thanked Lyle on a Post yet but here it is bro.
Thanks for a great Thread!!!!
OK, it’s payday today, boss is gone, so off early to Sushi & Beer!!!
+3
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:30 pm)I’m not advocating eliminating speculation. Just wild speculation on oil that can undermine our entire economy. You can still buy oil futures–just going two to one instead of ten to one (or whatever the current margin requirements are.) And allowing people manipulate markets isn’t good for anyone. (Except the manipulator.).
If that’s not enough risk for you–buy puts. Or calls. Buy corn futures. Buy distressed debt. Buy government debt of a third world country. There are plenty of choices out there.
By the way, you are required by law to wear a seat belt. And a helmet if you’re on a motorcyle–as a society, we don’t want to pay the extra medical bills from people who don’t.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:32 pm)My daily commute is 96miles. For an EV I would want 1 full daily commute + enough range for any other trips I might take on any one day. 200 miles would be enough that I would buy an EV over an EREV, less AER than that and I would get the Volt.
I can see that using my same “equation” other people would arrive at very different range requirements.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:33 pm)I am trying to imagine my wife plugging one of those babies in to charge up the car……………..
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:41 pm)It is good that you are enjoying your “electric” ride, Lyle. We all knew you would. After 1200 miles you had enough experience to give us a good report and you did. Thank you again for another great report. We will await your next driving experience report.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:51 pm)Absolutely!
Hell my wife is an Electrical Engineer and I bet she wouldn’t want to deal with that beast of a connector!
On the other side of things, I think the issue with fast charging is at the cell level, not the ability to push the power to them.
Safety is not an issue as has been pointed out before. The circuit would self test prior to energizing the line. The user would see a ‘green’ light indicator of some sort.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:53 pm)Jeffhre,
I totally agree with you about the range anxiety. I don’t have a problem with an electric car with limited MPC like the Mini-E as long as I know the true mileage I can expect and can plan for that and accept it. I can’t understand why anyone with a Tesla would have range anxiety unless they are completely lacking in any control mechanism in the head. With the range the Tesla gets a person should be able to “comfortably” do all the commuting and running errands a single day should require. That is as long as they plug the car in at night. If they need more miles than the car can deliver (no matter what kind it is) they need to have a backup plan (an ICE vehicle).
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:54 pm)I agree. I usually refill when my gas tank is half full. I know people who are OK with 1/4 or even 1/8, but I’m not one of them. I’d feel very uncomfortable driving close to “empty” on a regular basis. And I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:59 pm)LOLROTF!
I really don’t think so!
Thanks for the laugh!
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:01 pm)Question: When I bought my cell phone, the person at the desk told me, my battery would last longer if I didn’t charge it over night? And that letting it discharge completely was good for the battery.
Was she wrong? Is it a completely different situation?
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:07 pm)Lyle…
This Crow tastes bad…
It appears you were right, the conversation on the site is definately more animated with this new format.
Thanks for your hard work!
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:07 pm)Very good observation. Driving style does mean something.
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:09 pm)Assuming it doesn’t poison everyone in a 6 block radius of the car it is an impressive accomplishment.
Now I want to see it pass Euro or Canadian safety standards.
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:10 pm)Besides everyone driving a white car, you would think there would be ways to reflect more of the heat away from the cabin area of the car. Insulation is one way while a much improved reflective surface could possibly be another one. And even with a white car, it gets extremely hot inside just the same.
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:11 pm)Beer is good! Payday VERY good!
Sushi… well you ARE from California!!
Absolutely an excellent thread!
Thanks Lyle and all!
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:18 pm)Ditto to the welcome from Statk. I agree about the size of the gas tank. As long as you can go a couple hundred miles (4 gals?) would be fine by me. Even 100 miles. I don’t mind stopping after every hundred miles or so. It is good to take a break now and again on a road trip.
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:24 pm)Dan said:
“…(Do studies on it, you’ll likely see highly significant percentages in controlled studies).”
But temporal contiguity does not imply cause and effect.
Be well,
Tagamet, the bloviate.(g)
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:26 pm)You were only given part of the required information…
http://www.cellpower.com/battery_tips.cfm
Lithium-ion Batteries
It is important to learn battery care information for Lithium-ion batteries to enhance the performance and extend the useful life of the battery. Because they are the newest technology batteries, they offer several advantages over NiMH and NiCd batteries. Lithium-ion batteries are preferred for their lighter weight and higher performance. Lithium-ion batteries are typically 20-35% lighter and will provide 10-20% better performance than a NiMH battery of equivalent mAh rating. Lithium-ion batteries are also unique in that they are not susceptible to the “memory effect”.
A new Lithium-ion battery will benefit from an initial “conditioning” of the battery. For the first 3 charge cycles, fully charge the battery overnight and allow it to fully discharge before recharging. Once conditioned, Lithium-ion batteries will perform best when charged at a rate somewhere between a conventional slow charge and a rapid charge. When rapid charging, Lithium-ion batteries require a charger designed to charge Lithium batteries. To achieve a true full charge when rapid charging, the battery needs to be slow charged the last 10-15% of its charge cycle. Most “intelligent” desktop and Lithium-battery rapid chargers provide this capability. A Lithium-ion battery may be damaged by extensive overcharging (continuously on a charger for more than 24 hours).
————————————————
Now, I’m not a battery engineeer by any stretch, but I do know that we have different chemistries for different Li-on batteries and I don’t yet know how the above information applies to the Volt battery.
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:27 pm)Todd,
Well put! (“and it had to be downhill both ways to make it!”)
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:34 pm)The only disagreement on that point is that I want this Electric car to be my primary car, not ‘the commuter’.
For that it needs to have a realistic highway range, 2 or 3 hundred miles would be fine. My bladder doesn’t last much longer than that anyway!
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:36 pm)Hey Ray,
I think the Fusion Hybrid is a fantastic choice until an E-Rev is avaliable will you let us know how you like it?
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:46 pm)LOL! That thing would take up my whole desk!
I think you’re actually helping to proove my point. The first half-megawatt connector you show is HUGE – looks like nearly 12 inches in diameter.
As for the half-megawatt estimate, I think this is realistic number that fast charging stations will have to handle. Here are my assumptions:
1) The Volt is a compact car that uses 8kWh to go 40 miles, so I assume a compact car that goes 200 miles electric would require 40kWh of usable energy.
2) An EV SUV would consume roughly twice as much energy per mile as a compact car like the Volt, so a 200-mille EV SUV would require 80kWh of usable energy.
3) In order for fast charging stations to replace liquid filling stations, they will have to fast-charge 200 miles in around the same amount of time that it takes to fill up your gas tank – around 10 minutes max.
80kWh in 10 minutes is a half-megawatt.
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:52 pm)***ATTENTION ALL GOVERNMENT CIVIC TYPES WANTING EVs TO CATCH ON***
PUT CHARGING STATIONS IN ALL REST AREAS
That is all.
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:55 pm)A little bit of Soy Sauce and my Crow taste good with Beer….
P
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:56 pm)I think after all the chnages necessary to meet NA, EU and Canadian specs it will cost close to $35K+
+2
Jul 9th, 2009 (2:57 pm)Thanks. I’m glad that your Volt will keep you and your family warm and dry and safe.
My lack of range anxiety on my BEV was not meant as a criticism of the Volt.
I plan to purchase a Volt, too. Given the imposibility or having any one vehicle handle well the cognitive dissonance that is much of American sedan driving and roads (remote dirt road touring to daily urban gridlock and suburban commutes to infrequent long distance, high speed interstate based vacations), the Volt appears set to do the impossible amazingly well.
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:04 pm)Thank you for the information. I was wondering about that ever since I first heard about deep-cycling. I should probably buy a special charger for my phone…
I assume that that’s why GM has a special charger, and charging programming to charge the Volt. That way they can optimize battery life. And they probably “condition” the battery pack before selling it…
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:05 pm)How long ago was that? Those sound like NiMH instructions. For new Li ells leaving it on the charger does nothing because the small charge controller would sense the cell has reached it’s max charge voltage and stay in “Maintenance” mode for the cell. You only have one cell in your phone battery so no balance is required. Li cells like to be “Short Cycled”, that was the draw back of NiMh NiCad. Lipo’s can take an 80% DOD up to over 2000 cycles. Which means if you fully cycled your cell phone 5.479 times a day, the cell would only last for ~1 year.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:10 pm)JimI, MuddyRover, DaveG,
You guys have no imagination.
Give me about an hour and I bet I come up with at least 2 or 3 different ideas on how one could design a similarly sized electrical connection that would quickly hook up to you (or your wife’s) car . . .and wouldn’t involve anybody lifting anything.
The fast charge connection is an easy problem to be solved. . That’s my point.
And as far as safety…. imagine you haven’t heard of a gas station before, then imagine someone telling you the volatility of gasoline and the volume that would be pumped by everyday consumers. That would sound far more dangerous to me.
/p.s. how many people do you imagine are killed or injured in petrol fires/accidents each year?
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:13 pm)We must not forget that the Mini-E that Lyle is driving is a prototype, not the ready-for-sale vehicle that the Volt will be. BMW is doing extremely limited leases in order to get real world testing (and be paid for it, too). It is as if GM decided to lease Lyle a Mali-mule of the Volt for a year; warts and all (I don’t believe that the converted-nature of the Mini-E would even compare to a Cruze-mule).
Saying what AER the Volt will get based on Lyle’s Mini-E experiences strikes me as singularly misguided.
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:17 pm)Aw man, I never fill my tank full. My commuter car that is…
It’s always below half a tank. No need for me to carry additional petrol weight.
It’s my beer concept. If it only takes me a 6 pack to get to my 12 pack, why use up my 12 pack by carrying a 12 pack to get to my 12 pack?
Getit?
Gotit?
Good…..
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:19 pm)Is that range anxiety I see in an ICE car?
lol….
My wife’s the same. She starts worrying at 1/4 tank eventhough the gas station is less than a half mile from the trailer park.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:22 pm)Recent research suggests that the use of Lithium chemistry automotive batteries is actually in it’s infancy. There is plenty of room in the probable research to come for more power and energy; and a huge amount of room in probable manufacturing developments for much lower costs.
I believe that BEVs will be practical for many in far less than ten years.
I don’t believe that in cold climates BEVs will be practical even after far more than ten years. In Canada and the Dakotas, EREV and parallel hybrids will rule supreme for many, many years.
Oil cartels will never collapse. You do understand that transportation only accounts for about 40% of all oil use (and that’s generous — I haven’t seen an EREV airliner yet). There are plastics, pharmaceuticals and fertilizers enough to keep the oil business going probably past the end of the century (hopefully on an ever decreasing scale).
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:22 pm)It was last year when I bought my phone. And I have a Li ion battery. (Made by LG actually–I checked).
Maybe the cell phone rep never updated her info? But thanks! That’s really handy to know. It’s certainly easier to leave it on all night! Does that also work for laptops? And will it increase my electric bill?
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:25 pm)“You need materials to build your battery (currently lithium), ”
But once you have it you can re-use/re-charge it for the next 10yr/100Kmiles….
“and you need to produce the electricity required to fill it in”
Take that $7500 tax rebate the following year and go buy a 1.2 – 1.5KW Soalr package. You will then NEVER have to pay to charge your Volt at home. On top of that (If U live in the US) you get both a federal rebate and State rebate for your solar package. Of course the following year you get those rebates you can always use it to add on some more cells to get you to a 2.5KW total.
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:27 pm)Hey Lyle, have you Fully charged the Mini then mapped out a place to go that’s roughly 70 miles out and drive to it? Just curious on the freeway range.
I’ll Send Dan P to charge you up if have any problems….
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:29 pm)Amen to that.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:31 pm)If you take what happened with cell phones and apply it to cars, you end up with this:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2009/07/07/magnay.germany.erockit.cnn
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:32 pm)…then at 2:24 on a thursday afternoon, the thread spiralled hopelessly out of control, losing all context and meaning, as someone responded in kind to Mr. Petit’s orginal tangent, thus ending time and space as we knew it.
(=
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:34 pm)So, that’s what is wrong with carcus1? He’s really dead? Has anyone told him? LOL
But, seriously, I don’t see anyone foolish enough to hook up a high power cable in the rain. At least I hope not.
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:36 pm)Uncontested.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:41 pm)50 posts and no one has asked the main question yet: How does it handle on ‘sweet jumps’? That should have been ‘testing’ job 1.
http://thumbnails.hulu.com/6/288/4430_512x288_manicured__JbMNQc-AmEOfi6+KFCZf6w.jpg
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:41 pm)Yes, I have. I find it quite pleasant and relaxing.
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:44 pm)Lurtz Says: The “average” American commutes 14-16 miles*…
(* I haven’t found the federal data yet but have seen several references to it, I’m using this until I find the official data)
————————————————————————————–
http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:45 pm)If we finally get to the future of smart cars and smart roadways, we may be able to reduce a tremendous amount of the weight from a passenger car and actually see some real advancements in Miles per Charge. But how far out is that? Decades and decades and decades and …. . . . . . . . . . . . .
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:48 pm)I have no intention of eating any bird (other than chicken or turkey), but I do have to concede that my earlier whining about the change to the format was unnecessary.
Thanks for all that you do.
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:49 pm)The not-so-much … a certain doctor drives his new electric vehicle like a hoon, which reduces range. I understand, as the dark side of the force, instant acceleration and massive torque at speed with electric drive, is absolutely irresistible.
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:49 pm)Better question is, How many Craigs List girls can fit in the Mini-E….
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=craigs+list+girls&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g%3As1
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:50 pm)Hey carcus1, where’s your stripper pole to put on top of the Mini?
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:51 pm)lol, yeah, they go by MPC, I go by MPB (Mile per bladder).
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:53 pm)jeffhre Reply: Do gas pumps work during power failures?
——————————————————————————–
That’s a good question. How many gas stations have backup power so they can pump during power outages? Anyone have an idea?
Jul 9th, 2009 (3:58 pm)::Blink::
I am confused, are you saying that having range anxiety over 70 miles max and 3.3 mile/hour charge rate is similiar to the condition you describe?
I get what your saying that range anxiety happens to gasoline cars… but its a very different situation. When your gas car was having multiple problems you choose to leave an area with gas (without filling up??) because you had a gut feeling you had enough…
Thats a bit different than driving each day and having “10″ miles or less staring at you from a screen at the end of you drive.
In the end, I don’t think range is a big issue, but range anxiety in an electric car is just very different. For a long time, driving “normally” in your electric car when for a gasoline car you would be filling up will be grating for a large number of people
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:01 pm)Laptops generally use 100-150Watts on the power pack. Left plugged in without charging or being used, it’s closer to 45-80 watts. It’s still a good idea to unplug that charging pack if it is not charging. That’s why you’ll never see the “Energy Star” label on them. Laptop cells fall under tha same category, unless they’re A123m then it’s longer. But rule of thumb their the same.
fyi, I gave you the worst case DOD. You will probaly always put it on the charger well before is is going dead. that’s closer to a 70% DOD which get’s you 3000 cycles which means you’d have to fully cycle the battery 8.219 time per day to expect it to kill the cell.
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:02 pm)Although I agree with you on the safety of fast charging stations, I believe that a mechanical/electrical system can be designed to allow the connections. I am not sure we will ever have the batteries that are able to efficiently absorb charge at such high rates…
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Dave G.
Dave, you are correct. Every post I see you provide us is correct. The intellectual work you provide this site is always always well thought out.
By the way, it occurred to me today that there is a concept you might find useful (from something I read a few days ago).
Circular logic. or Circularity.
I believe you will relate that to the correct time frame.
GOOD WORK DAVE G.!!!
Dan.
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Dude, at this point we only know the cells are 3.5VDC and somewhere in the range of 3.5-3.6…..lol. The dude in the video said 3.5 but most are rated 3.6, go figure, more proprietaryness.
Hell, what’s the pack voltage? We thought it was 400VDC then something came out about it being 336VDC.
Does anyone know any more than that?
Oh yeah, and it’s Lithuim-Manganese.
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:10 pm)Is it just me or does the “Edit” not come up after you reply to someone?
Edit:
Nevermind…
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:15 pm)Damn, I got tired trying to read all these comments. I am going to just give up trying today. There sure are a lot of back and forth comments and replies that didn’t add up to very much except time to read them. But most of what I read was interesting and somewhat educational. I usually learn something new each day I spend any real time on this site. Today was not an exception. Thanks to all, especially Lyle.
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:17 pm)“I suggest you get on any major highway in the United States and and drive below 55 and then tell me that driving below the speed limit isn’t dangerous.”
Hahah, I know quite a few areas where this happens -often-. I will admit, the area does have a high likelyhood of extreme enviromentalist, which might lead people to travel so slow. In the area I live currently, less than 10% of the car exceed the speed limit by more than 9 mph… its spooky!
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:22 pm)“I have a little difficulty understanding why Lyle says he gets 70 miles on a charge but then has anxiety about a 52 mile round trip, all this on a vehicle that claims a 100 mile range.”
Assuming Lyle is right, he has a minimum daily drive of 52 miles on a car that gets 70 miles. IE, at a minimum he plans to use 75% of his driving capacity. Most people fill up thier cars when its below 70 miles of range left. Let alone driving it to 18 miles left, each and every day (best case). 18 miles isn’t alot of wiggle room to run even 2 or 3 quick errands along the route of travel. Heck, pretty much every girl I have ever dated has started nagging me to get fuel as soon as the light comes on. I know I have more than 50 miles left at that point.
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:26 pm)Wow, that’s great!
“ERockiT plans to build just 10 machines in 2009, for the pretty-penny price tag of $44,000″ (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/10/erockit-electric-assisted-bike.php)
Whoa
(it may have said that in the CNN vid, but I don’t have sound)
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:27 pm)ty
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:35 pm)I had to send it out for repairs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZnuJppyo4E
+1
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:40 pm)After watching the Meltrix video I have to say I think Fast charging at FAST CHARGING STATIONS along the road will be doable but I fear this will not be the case for home charging. It will be much faster than now available but Susy Home maker is not going to like that plug at all. Good grief it would cause me a bit of tribulation.
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:41 pm)Differing Oxygenation blood concentrations are easily observed and known to be related to context processing and concentration.
Observe for yourself for anyone who has a chronic swelling.
There is apparently an emulsion of wax to physically block receptors from allergens (which dries to a “waxy feel”), as well as the oxymetazoline to reduce the swelling in addition to the camomile.
A learned visceral response is clearly present when the empty bottle with trace camomile has two tablespoons of filtered water added to it, and, that is used as an occasional trace application during the daytime. (Sample size is only 8 techs, (not a controlled study,) but they are learning far more easily, and apparently have less baseline frustration is seems.)
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:44 pm)Dang!! Maybe the Volt is actually dirt cheap.
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:48 pm)Paul Stoller Reply:The 40 mile AER to my understanding was never mean’t to indicate highway miles.
————————————————————————————–
Not true! 40 AER is both highway and city.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both-highway-and-city-driving/
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:52 pm)It will also be nice to see what its specs actual happen when driven on EPA cycles. I mean, not that I don’t trust BYD or anything….
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:52 pm)40 AER is both highway and city.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both-highway-and-city-driving/
Jul 9th, 2009 (4:54 pm)LOL
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:00 pm)You would need 18 of those Honda generators to match the 53kW Volt generator.
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:19 pm)The fusion is an attactive package. I sat in one this week. I hope it goes well for you.
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:20 pm)Next to the charging station, put a motel for sleeping while the car charges.
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:21 pm)“For all your electrical appliance needs…” MELTRIC
Funny, but long ago MELTRIC fitted out the entire house. I can now plug in the toaster with confidence and the panini press, how many times I was thrown across the room plugging that electric beast in I cannot recall but now sweet safe simplicity!
Right you are about petrol filling stations. That more citizens are not blown up or burned or both is amazing considering that these too are voters and for the most part were edumecated by public schools. Reminds me of a story…
Regards! Higgins
PS: As of yet the Lads are still hanging their heads out portholes and hopefully are not too enamored of finger food as the kind they had would leave them hungry shortly after eating.
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:27 pm)Didn’t we see California recently mandating a reflective coating for the windows and killing a no black car rule recently, or was I day dreaming it all up?
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:32 pm)Oh my God Magnum! What travesty hast been created! Quick, and gin and tonic to steady the nerves and settle the malaria!
Regards!——-Higgins
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:43 pm)LOL. Statik
That was really funny. I really liked that one.
Tangents can be fun. Often off topic, but sometimes
trying to help people become less frustrated (my tech job
at all times), I can get out on a tangent. It is, however, part of the circle, “far out” as it always is. (Mine is always out to the far left. Although it is a greater effort to help those who are on the tangent over at the far right, I still always respectfully try).
Great humor, Statik.
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:52 pm)Doh! I’m too late
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:57 pm)Because the US uses 120V neighborhood step down transformers are sized for a fairly limited number of homes. Very few of these transformers will be able to handle anything near the 400,000 watts we’re talking about here. One charger would probably blow most of them out.
Jul 9th, 2009 (5:59 pm)Very very few. Occasionally a government will bring in one to pump gas to official vehicles.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:07 pm)Since your highway portion is brief you will probably use far fewer wh/mile than Lyle is. If you look at the graph from Tesla engineering which Herm has cited you’ll see just how fast you burn those watts on the freeway. (My guess is that Lyle spends most of his commute at 65 mph or more.) You’d probably be able to charge at work with a 120V line and be fine.
And as you say, if you use some gas: So what? It’s not that we use gas, it’s how much we use. Plus there is no point in buying an expensive battery if you’re not going to use it.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:08 pm)Skill sets matter ….. LOL
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:08 pm)As the battery is storing the energy, to a great extent, not using the energy, heating is less of a concern. Of course, heating remains a concern, as it may occur with very high currents, even if a secondary effect.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:11 pm)You are of course right and the cite is perfect. However, he may have meant freeway. The highway drive cycle is sort of a rural road drive, not an interstate drive. US06 probably equates to what Lyle has.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:13 pm)An electric car may be well suited to NYC in town, with an electric’s quick acceleration and braking recovery of part of the energy used. It is likely a much more favorable situation than high-speed interstate travel, mile after mile. In the latter, pushing the air out of the way uses up a lot of energy, mile after mile. That’s so even in an “aerodynamic” car.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:13 pm)Why is it that it appears that the time for new additional posts (at least on my computer) stops at about a half and hour ago. Is that some sort of topic “time out” per person?
With the thousands of people I would expect to be looking at this site, why (scanning up the thread) are there no posts after 5:30, and, the time is 6:14 ?
Also, I notice that frequently , a new topic has started and I am not seeing it on my computer for the times that I know I have been on line here.
That seems to have happened often.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:16 pm)At low speed the most important factor will be rolling resistance, which the Volt diminishes with rock-hard tires. At higher speeds (15 mph and up), the situation rapidly becomes energy use to overcome air drag. Anyone who doubts how strong air drag is should try holding an arm straight out the window, palm forward, at 45 mph. (Be careful if you try it.)
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:23 pm)Great point. It’s good to be reminded that range is wholly dependent on the drive cycle. You might be able to go 200 miles at 30 mph but only 70 miles at 85 mph. The fact is that one number for the range just can’t tell the story, but people want the one number.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:25 pm)With respect to charge rates at the cell level, ever hear of Altair Nano?
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:25 pm)Thanks for that one.
I just told my closest gas station that if they have a power outage (they have no backup) when I’m around, I’m willing to do some V2G takeoff with them from my BEV so that my BEV powers the gas pumps for them for a while. I usually use wind power and I have several friends in town with both off grid solar and solar backup systems (must be > 3kWh output), so getting recharges during power outgages is never a problem for me.
I’m just doing my part to help out full gassers until their owners stop dragging their feet and make the switch to electric drive.
There are far more electrical outlets than gasoline stations and the outlets are more uniformly distributed. You just have to start talking to folks on your route and get ADVANCE permission to optionally, but not frequently, charge up at their outlets if the situation arises where that makes sensew for you to do. Set up three or four of those permitted to use occasionally outlets along each common route you take and you’re all set. Mine are near frequent destinations and at simple fraction of the distance between common destinations (like, half way).
It’s interesting that I have a 26 miles commute, while Lyle has a 25 commute and I’ve never had range anxiety with my 40 mile AER while he has with his much higher AER. The main differences?
1. I don’t commute on the interstate and use lower speed surface routes near developed areas (commercial/residential/industrial) that have tons of outlets.
1. I have longer experience with charging and using my BEV and have developed relationships to have multiple charging options along my routes and within walking distance to my destinations. As charging station locations multiply, businesses, governments, parking structures get more infrastructure in place and more formal recharging locations become more commonplace, this will really be a super non-issue.
I see why Lyle is prompting NYC to become a partner in Project Get Ready (RMI project). The electric chickens are already roaming the roads, so it’s time to talk more to governments and businesses for them to get those fall off a log easy charging eggs in place.
My city already has more than 20 electric outlets around downtown, near where I work and in nearby parking garages, just as regular pre-existing infrastruture, all of which they allow me use for free and they don’t even have a proper electric vehicle plan draft started yet. When you start talking to real people with a real vehicle in hand, things start to happen real fast. My one suggestion is never request charging from an outlet for the first time when it’s a dire need, always ask when its totally optional and not even really needed. It’s in people’s nature to be more open to change when the change isn’t absolutely necessary. Advance planning and premission along your regular routes makes everything much, much easier and will ease your mind.
Intended Volt purchasers: It’s never too early to set up these relationships and permissions. I suggest you start talking to the businessess you visit regularly on your routes, your workplace, your city government parking officials, scoping for the best outlets already out there and talking to the folks that own them, etc. If you start to do all this now, it’ll be a breeze for you after you get your Volt.
You can even carry around an extension cord in your full gasser car and start plugging it in for a few minutes once in a while to give yourself and the outlet owners advance practice at your using your permission once in a while.
I’ve found it’s been a fun game and a great way to get to know your local community (especially the business and government folks) better.
You’d think we didn’t go through these exact same issues with full gassers a hunderd years ago. For example, start or join an EV users club in your area, since every member sharing their outlet use with other EV users is a basic reason for such clubs in the first place and gives you an instant selection of permitted recharge locations. You can do a google maps of charging station locations, where the plug ins are, Hymotion installation dealers for more info., etc. So early adopters have to do thinmgs first a little more. Consider that you are making history with each little action and interaction you take to make this work a little better for yourself.
Last, change is easier if you do it with other folks. It never stays as new as it does in the beginning. Eventually, you won’t even think about your charging logistics, it’s just the normal whatever that’s part of your life.
I would have shared a lot of all this sooner, but it’s so second nature by now, I really had to think about how I got here to easy street with my recharging in all situations.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:27 pm)LauraM
Regarding the battery cell life in the phone, an important concept to remember is that there is a design lifetime for the cell. The design goal is for it to last a year, or maybe a little more, before requiring replacement. That is, the cell has a limited lifetime, and after a year of use it will have degraded. (People confuse “rechargeable” with the idea that the cell can be recharged indefinitely.)
So one should not worry or even think about having done something wrong if the cell gave satisfactory service for a year. Thank that cell for having done its job, and buy a replacement one at the 1-year point. Use the new one happily.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:30 pm)It depends on how close they come to the driver
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:34 pm)True enough. I was just curious as to what vehicles other people are using that works well.
I’ve looked in to conversions, and they look like they might work very well for some people, and I’d like to think that I’m one of those people — but the reality is that I don’t have the time to build and maintain a hot-rod at the moment. The pre-built cars are quite a varied field — I’ve done a lot of reading, but so many of the cars that I’ve read about are just hype that I’ve nearly hit my saturation point.
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:52 pm)They’re a little low on the cell voltage. C rates look impressive.
I wonder how much one cell costs?
Maybe call them tomorrow….
Jul 9th, 2009 (6:54 pm)Good call Higgins!
Let’s get started.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-make-a-gin-tonic-with-a-hot-girl-174810/
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:02 pm)most fuel lights in cars I have driven have less than 10 miles left when the idiot light comes on. Except one had around 18 miles left. Same deal here.
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:07 pm)Now that’s funny.
I’ve got a “almost blew myself up” 87 octane story . . . that one’s better left untold. (happened whilst riding ye olde scooter in the rockies. I depart for same trip tomorrow, but I don’t plan on repeating the “campfire experiment”).
….. hummus, anyone?
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:09 pm)Test..test
..
and it worked
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:22 pm)is just to limp home at minimum speed.
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:26 pm)Even if a perfect battery was put on the market today, it would take years to fully test. Simulations can only take you so far.
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:28 pm)You realize most BP batteries will be slow charged either at home or at special designated parking spots?.. the battery swap thing is a very small part of their business plan.
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:32 pm)One of my favorites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK8byQsugFw
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:33 pm)In S. Florida they do, its a law that gas stations must have a small generator to power the pumps in emergencies. Large supermarkets have also installed gigantic generators for emergency power. The things look like a railroad car without wheels.
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:52 pm)Good thought.
But,
There’s only 4 kilowatts available from the Onan in the ’92 Brave.
There would have to be a party for 12 hours for it to do any good.
How many kegs would that be if everyone showed up?
Jul 9th, 2009 (7:56 pm)Okay,
Maybe to reduce/prevent “burnout” is the best I can think of, and, have new topics initiated with various veiwpoints.
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:31 pm)Like this guy from LA, I bet Lyle has been enjoying his “local enviro-rock-star status” around New York. If he was single, he’d probably be able to find plenty of chicks wanting to check out the car. They might like the car so much they’d want to see his hip bachelor pad later on too.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-07-08-mini-electric-car_N.htm
Lyle’s a lucky dude to get to drive these cutting edge, new cars like the Tesla Roadster and the Mini E. I bet people are calling Lyle “that electric car Doctor” these days.
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:38 pm)stopping every 100 miles would get annoying for me. I prefer about 3-5 hours of driving between stops on roadtrips. So 70*5=350 is about right for max range. If 50mpg is the range extended mileage rate, it seems like Volt needs a 7 gallon tank, maybe 8 to be safe.
-1
Jul 9th, 2009 (9:52 pm)C S Guy – You’re right, of course. Gasoline bad. Got it.
No Volt for you !
Well, it’s been real. But since all Chevy’s use gas (including the Volt), it time for you to go. And you can’t come back. EVER! Take care, buh bye now !
-2
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:17 pm)IM(less than)HO, PBP is more than welcome to compete in the marketplace of ideas, +++ IF +++ they succeed or fail on their own merits – NO taxpayer assistance. If they try to reach in my pocket for money, all they’ll get is a bloody stump where their hand used to be.
I’ve already had Chairman Mal-bama in my pocket for stimulis money (which has yet to stimulate anything except my temper). Now I have to deal with his Cap + Tax plan to raise the price of, well, everything. So much for no taxes except on the top 5% – more lies. Welcome to Chicagoland, right here in DC, and coming to your neighborhood.
Maybe if I set my wallet in a bear leg-hold steel-jaw trap, set with a hair trigger …
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:42 pm)Thanks. I knew leaving it to charge overnight was too good to be true. But definitely good to know.
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:52 pm)Laura, it’s not as much manipulation as it is “piling on”. In 2008, pretty much everything stock-wise was in the toilet. When energy prices began to climb, everyone with the capital to buy oil futures was doing so – it was one of the few sectors making gains in 2008. More money chased after a limited amount of oil futures, driving the price through the roof.
In 2008, the average oil future contract changed hands a dozen times before being purchased by the end user (the person who needs the oil). $750 thousand dollars would buy a contract for 10 million dollars worth of oil. As long as the prices continued climbing, everyone holding futures was making money. Poor single mothers had to choose between gas to get to work, or food for their children, but who cares if you’re making mad money in the market, right?
When their sky high house of cards begin to collapse, I would have loved to see their faces. The oil contracts, purchased at the height of the +4.00 gas price spike, now worth less than half the purchase price when gas prices tumbled to less than 2.00 a gallon. I guess the oil speculators are getting brave again – gas is now over 2.50 a gallon. Then the price of oil drops a little, and scares the speculators again. But they won’t stay scared forever – another price run-up is inevitable, unless…
Here’s the plan – If you buy oil futures, you have to prove you can use the oil you purchase, and you have to have the facilities to store the 10 million barrels of oil you want to contract for. That will keep the speculators out. What do you think?
Jul 9th, 2009 (10:55 pm)lol. So the phone companies are into planned obsolescence! That explains a lot…
Thank you for telling me. I generally keep my cell phones for two years, and they definitely don’t keep their charge as well during the second year. But I’m cheap. I want to maximize battery life if at all possible…
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:01 pm)Lyle,
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Mini E.
Certainly seems the Volt idea of the range extender is the way to go. I’d like to get an electric car – was thinking about the Aptera – (Telsa and Fisker – seem like great rides but are out of my price range), but think I’ll wait for the range extender to become affordable.
Jul 9th, 2009 (11:25 pm)Lyle said:
“In the parking garage of my office, where I spend at least 6 hours per day, I have a 110V outlet installed at my assigned parking spot.”
===============
Geesh, thats a long time to spend in the parking garage. You don’t have to watch it for it to charge up y’know.
/the people must really pile up in your waiting room.
+1
Jul 10th, 2009 (12:52 am)And next to that, put a CarMax so the angry can sell their car. lol
Gotta have a bigger-than-actually-needed gas tank. Americans are famous for their propensity to pay for things they don’t need nor rarely use, such as SUVs, which almost never go off-road, or 400 hp engines, minivans for a family of three or four, or BMWs for our largely wide and straight roads. Feels great to have the capability, even if rarely used. (eventually, you’ll see the same effect for electrics, such as 400hp, zero-to-60 in 2.5 seconds, pull out a Giant Sequoia stump, etc.) And emotions are what truly are behind the purchase decisions.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:20 am)Lawrence
Demand for electricity has constantly gone up since Edison created the first DC powered project in Menlo Park to the Pearl Street station in New York and forward to this day. How would anyone conclude that shifting power production from millions of gasoline fueled power-plants barely getting efficiencies of 22% on the highway is problematic under those circumstances?
It’s been said that personal vehicle use accounts for 43 or so percent of oil consumption ——-and that the existing grid is essentially ready for night time charging of millions of EV’s to no detrimental effect.
And yes, I would gladly shift the problem of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines away from dying to protect the nations oil supply infrastructure. Yeah, paying for military members to enjoy retirement is expensive, but I see that as the preferred alternative.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:22 am)I’m not an engineer but thought of one solution in about two seconds–subdivide, that is, use multiple cords.
Other obvious solutions: battery swap, frequent small rechargings from outside sources and/or the ICE, power strips in the road, super-efficient solar cells, sails, the power of positive thinking, etc.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:34 am)Don’t do it. After the 5th beer there’s no way you’ll be coordinated enough to pay the tab with that bear trap set up!!!
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:43 am)New General Motors expected to exit Chapter 11 [Friday]
“Most of GM’s model lineup is expected to stay unchanged for now. But the company on Friday will probably show off its newer, more efficient models, as well as plans for a U.S.-made subcompact and rechargeable electric vehicles.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090710/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_bankruptcy_28
More exposure for the Volt. Can the Good GM (aka Phoenix Motors) apply for the federal developmental $ now (like what Ford, Nissan and Tesla are getting)?
Jul 10th, 2009 (2:42 am)and the stench of gasoline would drive you nuts.. reminding you to plug the car in next time
Jul 10th, 2009 (3:11 am)These LG lithium manganese spinel cells may be different.. but it is recommended you break lipos in before submitting them to hard use. Supposedly you get more cycles.
All the cycling we will ever do on these cells is shallow, and charging will be slow also.. these cells are babied. Since heat is the enemy of lipos, I would only charge these cars at night, slowly… and never fast charge them.
I really dont think fast charging will be common.. and fast charge stations will be rare because the demand will be low, maybe a handful of stations on major highways.
Jul 10th, 2009 (3:31 am)best rule of thumb is 0.250kwh of usable battery capacity per mile.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/byd-f3dm-plug-i.html
“The dual-mode powertrains actually supports three modes of operation: Full battery-powered EV mode; Series-hybrid mode, in which an engine drives a generator as a range-extender; and
Parallel hybrid mode, in which the engine and motor both provide propulsive power…
The DM powertrain incorporates BYD’s own 50 kW 3-cylinder, 1.0-liter BYD371QA aluminum engine, and has a combined maximum output of 125 kW.”
This is probably a heavy car, due to the large LiFe pack, and not a lot of horsepower, thus slow… it may not be popular in the US where a Prius is considered slow.
How expensive can it be to add a bunch of air bags?..$5000 at most?
Jul 10th, 2009 (5:51 am)The problem is the risk of running out of power. Waiting on a tow truck to drag the $40,000 car you just bought is a pain in the a$$ for most people. I don’t have time to play these games. I want the freedom to go where I need to go when I need to go there. I have responsibilities to deal with (Thats why I am wasting time here…). When I do get home, many times I have to run right back out.
If I had the choice of a limited range EV or a hummer, I would be forced to buy the hummer in my current situation.
Thankfully, we have many choices and I don’t need an H2. The point is, an EV with a small range can be a problem. As the range increases, the risks go down and the purchase becomes more practical for many people. Some people can live with a 20 mile range BEV. I am not sure if I could live with a 100 mile range BEV.
Jul 10th, 2009 (6:28 am)I agree that, for this all to work out to all of our benefits, the country needs to make a massive investment in electrical infrastructure in parallel with the advance/adoption of the electric car. Wind, solar, the supposedly safer nuclear, and other forms of energy collection, big investment has to be made in these, as well as in a more robust transport mechanism. I think that needs to be a big focus of any further “stimulus” by the government regardless of immediate employment payoff. The long term always takes priority.
Jul 10th, 2009 (6:43 am)Also, regarding fuel anxiety (his example), it’s not the same as finding the gas gauge on 1/4 tank when you’re not quite home. It’s more like finding it on “E” and only the reserve left to get you to a station. It’s a little bit of a fuel emergency at that point.
+1
Jul 10th, 2009 (6:48 am)I start sweating it out when it’s below “E” in a zone I’ve never had it in before, and I’m at least 5 miles from a station. But I’m an adventurer.
Jul 10th, 2009 (7:06 am)I’m pretty paranoid about the actual intent behind PBP. I feel it amounts to another middle-man with his fingers in my wallet. And, I ask, how does that bring me energy independence?
Jul 10th, 2009 (7:47 am)Leaving a comment very late in the thread..
I was thinking that BMW should have put a dial or switch in the car that tunes the performance, just like Tesla did. The switch could electronically limit the horsepower of the motor and how responsive it was to the throttle… in such a way that it would take time to get up 70mph.. You would just dial up the performance you desired.. and perhaps lock it down when your teenager son or leadfoot wife drove the car.
Jul 10th, 2009 (10:57 am)Excellent point, Dude! Gas pumps DO NOT WORK during a power outage.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVIS1ZFdKslUAW_3ozAt.;_ylu=X3oDMTExamxoMWc5BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA3JlNAR2dGlkAwRsA1dTMQ–/SIG=14d735ie9/EXP=1247327797/**http%3A//www.brighamcity.utah.gov/Public%2520Power/WHAT%2520WOULD%2520YOU%2520DO%2520DURIING%2520A%2520POWER%2520OUTAGE.pdf
Jul 10th, 2009 (11:12 am)http://www.srpnet.com/safety/storm/prepare.aspx
AHAHAHAHAHAH!
Question: why do they call it a gas PUMP?
Where is the gas stored? In underground tanks that require it to be PUMPED up to the hose and into your vehicle.
Jul 10th, 2009 (11:59 am)Anybody else get the feeling that either the Mini-E prototype was pretty much thrown together without regard to performance or the Volt may be overpromising on the battery range? They seem so divergent in terms of efficiency…
Mini-E theoretical: 100 mi / 35 kwh = 2.9 mi/kwh
Mini-E actual: 70 mi / 35 kwh = 2.0 mi/kwh (30% efficiency reduction)
Volt theoretical: 40 mi / 16 kwh = 2.5 mi/kwh
Volt prorated using Mini-E reduction: 28 mi / 16 kwh = 1.8 mi/kwh (30% range reduction)
Volt matching Mini-E efficiency: 32 mi / 16 kwh = 2.0 mi/kwh (20% range reduction)
I’d imagine it would be difficult for the Volt to handsomely beat the Mini-E’s efficiency due to its weight (more passengers, extra ICE engine, safety features, etc.). I also don’t know how the aerodynamic efficiency, system power requirements, and battery MTBF of the Mini-E compares with the Volt.
Anybody have a reasonable guess to compare efficiencies?
Jul 10th, 2009 (12:08 pm)The Mini Cooper is seriously un-aerodynamic. It’s also heavy even before the batteries went in.
drag coefficients:
Toyota Prius: .25
Chevy Tahoe: .34
MINI Cooper: .35
Jul 10th, 2009 (12:17 pm)“By the way, you are required by law to wear a seat belt. And a helmet if you’re on a motorcyle–as a society, we don’t want to pay the extra medical bills from people who don’t.”
Actually helmets and seat belts are costing us more in medical bills, the people who didn’t wear/use them weren’t costing us anything in medical bills, they just cost their families funeral expenses.
Jul 10th, 2009 (12:17 pm)That is mind numbing that a Mini is less aerodynamic than a Tahoe. They should add massive spoilers & tail fins while they’re at it
Seems like an illogical choice for an electric prototype based on the Cd. Makes you wonder about the Smart 4-2. That seems pretty bad aerodynamically as well..
Got anything on weights?
Jul 10th, 2009 (12:59 pm)How terribly ironic.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:00 pm)You are not REQUIRED to use the PBP charging stations. They are there if one should need them.
Personally, I would probably use a charging station away from my home maybe twice a year if that.
For those who fear not being able to go to the grocery store or pick up a pizza/drop off the kiddies at the game/friend’s house/practice/jewelers, etc., you should be the strongest voice for more range EVs. (But a 70 mile range doesn’t seem too bad – honestly, how far IS that grocery store anyway? I have three within 2 miles of my house and another 5 within 7 miles…)
We can all stick with what’s comfortable or we can each do our part to be part of the solution and not the problem. It looks like a good many on this board are dead set to remain a big part of the problem. That’s a personal choice. It’s not one I would make but we that’s what having freedom is all about.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Based on the article–the recent spike of 10 was due to one person. So, position limits should help. As should margin requirements. From what I’ve heard, the amount of leverage in the futures market is insane. (I couldn’t find exact figures.)
Your plan sounds good to me. It would substantially reduce the liquidity in the oil futures market, but I doubt it would be a problem for legitimate hedgers. But I don’t know. My other concern is that would probably reduce the price of gasoline, and I believe that it should be higher, not lower. But a simple gas tax would solve that problem, and put the money in the hands of the government rather than speculators–which would be a good thing IMHO.
That said, I don’t see it passing. The banking/trading lobby is very powerful. The government should be doing a lot of things that they’re not even considering right now. (Reinstate Glass Steagall, banning certain types of derivatives, etc.) It’s really disturbing actually.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:11 pm)The Volt needs to advertise that for most people’s daily driving, it will use NO GAS!
This is indeed the type of thinking NewGM needs. Simple, consumer oriented, and it pushes you toward the buy decision without having to stop and do calculations.
I would go for something like “Great Performance / 105 MPG”
From what I have seen, few buyers will actually use no gas, but lots of people will exceed 100 MPG.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:15 pm)my one way commute is only 9 miles so the Mini would Rock for me with miles to spare…
A better alternative for a person who commutes 18 miles a day is to buy something like a Huydai accent. Saves you $25,000 up front, and you only need 0.5 gallons per day to commute.
Even at $10 per gallon, you are still ahead with the Hyundai.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:31 pm)“We don’t like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out.”
— Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.
“Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.”
— Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.
“Everything that can be invented has been invented.”
— Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.
“640K ought to be enough for anybody.”
— Bill Gates, 1981
“The ability to fast-charge your car in 10 minutes, that will never happen.”
— Dave G, 2009
* * * * * * * * * *
Maybe working with jet aircraft helps me to continue to be amazed at what we can do when we try, but fast charging an electric car seems like a trivial problem. Just drive your car onto some bus bars at the “Quickie-Charge” station and you are connected. There is no need to lift a heavy connector. Then run your credit card and an energy storage unit (eg., super capacitor, fuel cell, etc.) underground can easily supply a few thousand amps to surge-charge your battery to 80% in 5 minutes. At home, a slow charge will be more practical.
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:47 pm)It seems to me that the battery system will get VERY warm if you slam a full charge into it in “8″ minutes.
It is absolutely possible to push that much juice, my question/concern is whether it’s smart to do so.
I do not claim to be an expert in this area, but my feeling is that most current battery chemistries would not like this very much.
Jul 10th, 2009 (3:16 pm)I know him! Didn’t his house burn down in an electrical fire?
Jul 10th, 2009 (3:16 pm)“I’m certain driving the speed limit makes people safer on the roads …”
You are wrong. Driving with the flow is the safest.
US DOT data shows that most speed limits are set below the 85th percentile speed, which actually increases the accident rate (and ticket revenue).
http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html
Jul 10th, 2009 (3:28 pm)No.
1. You’d miss out on luxury quiet, maximum torque off the line (unless you get stuck with the stupid old BMW algorithm that emulates a deficient full gasser) and instant near linear acceleration at any speed.
2. Better is based on more than just fuel savings versus vehicle up front price differences or weak hybrid sales would have dominated full hybrid sales by now (they don’t). A mini E is no Hyundai accent or 500 mini E leasers would have made a different choice than they did. Now the Hyundai Blue-Will plug in sports hybrid or their planned 40 mile full EV (plenty for an 18 mile commute with an at/near work recharge), I agree with that.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2349855,00.asp
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/03/hyundai-motor-co-introduces-all-electric-car-for-south-korean-market.html
Off topic, what would Hank Hill, of Top of the Hill, employee of Stickland Propane in Arken, Texan, trade in his red F250 super duty pickup truck for?
An LPG (propane) hybrid, of course. Cue GM’s Spark, Kia’s Forte and Hyundai’s Avante propane electric hybrids coming on the market now. Product placement / marketing gold mine there for whichever automaker makes the call and strikes a deal with FOX/Judge/Daniels for him to make the trade in (using cash for clunkers if desired) in an episode. Easy enough to swap LPG for CNG, Mr. Pickens. Another win-win-win for electric drive and domestic clean(er) energy and the domestic economy.
I’d have Bobby’s school auto class do a DIY chop job and turn the back of new car into a pickup truck bed, so it can haul more BBQ propane tanks, in the following episode.
Sigh, where are the marketing geniuses when you need them? Someone improve on this, quick. Anyone qualified that can come out of retirement? Any ideas?
Who would have thought that forklifts would start the next generation in personal transportation?
Jul 10th, 2009 (3:42 pm)Tom,
If all you do with the little Accent is go back and forth to work I cannot make any sane financial arguement against your reasoning.
Our Volt will be our primary car doing road trips and all so I consider the extra stuff in the loaded model I would get worthwhile.
Jul 10th, 2009 (4:56 pm)So you’re going to buy an ECC Citroen C1 ev’ie, on sale right this second for less than $26,000 (60 mph top speed, 60 mile AER in grandpa mode) and already on the roads
http://cars.uk.msn.com/Reviews/article.aspx?cp-documentid=16608427
http://www.theelectriccarcorporation.co.uk/
or the Hyundai BEV with 40 miles AER on tap (gotta be less than the stella and imiev as it has less range, so lower power pack cost)?
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/03/hyundai-motor-co-introduces-all-electric-car-for-south-korean-market.html
More and more choices and better and better prices, every month it’s a new world in automotive choices, and a bunch of it is starting to come on line for sale and hit the roads NOW.
Hurry up, GM.
Jul 10th, 2009 (5:49 pm)Or buy the Hyundai and take it to one of your local electric vehicle conversion shops to turn it into a full electric.
No gas and you’ve saved enough money to be able to afford a really big battery pack!
Jul 10th, 2009 (7:17 pm)To nasaman… sort of.
I didn’t know the volt’s range was less than 700 miles. I was under the impression you could simply fill up with gas and drive it over 100K miles!!!
My point is do you think about the range of your current car? No. What is the range of your current car? Answer quick, no quick math calculations. So if you don’t even know the range of your current car and never once gave “range” much of a thought with your current car then no need to even think about it with the volt either.
Jul 10th, 2009 (7:17 pm)Not sure what the big deal is. Just carry a 1KW genset ($400) and a gallon of gas. That will give you about 4 KWh or 15 miles. This thing weighs only 27 lbs and is no bigger than a PC.
Not enough? Carry 4 gallons of gas for 60 more miles.
In fact if you were an EE as opposed to a cultural anthropology major, you would figure out how to run the genset while driving, to get an EREV.
+1
Jul 10th, 2009 (7:58 pm)“Range” is the mileage a driver can achieve without stopping to recharge or refill, and the problem is that Ford is heavily promoting their “electric” car, the 2010 Fusion hybrid, to have a range of “over 700 miles.” My concern is that, although the Volt has a much higher AER as well as a better mpg, it’s tiny gas tank will not allow it to achieve a range of >700 miles.
Simply increasing the Volt’s fuel tank to a modest 14 gallons (12 gals + 2 gallons reserve, say) would give it a non-stop range exceeding that of the Focus Hybrid —i.e, a marketing advantage at virtually NO added cost!!!
Jul 10th, 2009 (8:07 pm)(Sorry —the above reference should have been to Ford’s FUSION Hybrid.)
Jul 11th, 2009 (12:34 am)Grettings from Mini-E #183.
Me thinks Lyle has a heavy foot
But the good news is he is really putting to use and liking the preformance of the car! No hypermiling here as the car is a rocket sled.
I have approx 1500 miles on the car, I average 95-100 miles per charge. No problems or issues and I have the 240V 36amp charger which is really nice.
Worst case for me was 80 miles all freeway at 75mph. Best case was 127 miles on a charge all low speed on hwy 101 about 30 to 40 mph. (It was a great cruise!)
I also love to put my foot into it but Dr. Lyle, you must be enjoying the heck out of the performance of the car to only get 70 miles per charge
Great review, I’ll just add, stay away from the potholes and go slow over speed bumps. all the Mini’s are rather jolting!
Loveing my year with #183
Cheers
Peder
Jul 12th, 2009 (10:54 am)I’ll attempt a summary of this thread. The Volt will be a series hybrid. That means you run on battery the first 30 or 40 miles. Then a gasoline powered generator starts running to prevent the battery from further discharge. I presume the generator runs until the battery is recharged about half way. The driver likely has some control over when the generator starts and stops, as you would not want to attract attention to the sound of your generator running while parked unintended in some neighborhoods. The voltage of each cell is monitored by the computer. When one cell drops to about zero volts for about a second or more the generator starts recharging the battery which has 100 cells, perhaps a few more than 100. The voltage is 332 volts or 400 volts. Perhaps GM is undecided, or 400 volts is required for fast charging the battery and 332 volts is about the voltage, just before the generator starts to recharge. It is also possible that there will be a 332 volt model and a higher performance 400 volt model. The range is about 100,000 miles, by filling the gas tank at about 500 mile intervals. The Volt will have a lot of advantages over the competition. Disadvantages are the gasoline will get stale if you almost always charge before the generator starts to run. You will need to be towed due to some kinds of mechanical, electronic or electrical failure, while a parallel hybrid has at least a shot at limping to a repair shop on either the battery or the gasoline motor.
The Mini Cooper is electric only that seats two persons with very little space for luggage. That means you need a tow truck, when the computer decides further driving will damage the battery. A hybrid or electric vehicle with higher voltage can possibly recharge a mini Cooper enough to drive a few more miles, but this is dangerous unless you have the proper jumper cable.
Please correct my errors. Neil
Jul 13th, 2009 (3:53 am)Larry, sorry to say this, but if your commute is 96 miles a day, you should maybe reconsider where you live before thinking about mileage…you would save gas and a good part of your life spent in a car!
Jul 13th, 2009 (4:01 am)if the real range of the mini is 60 miles then it’s pretty badly optimized for a 35kWh battery (or the battery isn’t really 35kWh). The rule of thumb is ~4miles / kWh, which should translate into 140miles.
I guess when car makers really switch to EVs they will have to think about making lighter, more efficient cars (the Tesla is based on the Lotus Elise, which body is under 1500lbs…)
Jul 13th, 2009 (4:10 am)this reminds me of car tested by magazines where they claim some really low mileage and when I actually drive the car I get nearly twice…either I’m a very cautious driver or the testers have an issue with their right foot!
Jul 13th, 2009 (4:22 am)Exactly! When we will think about it ten years from now, we will remember how impractical it was to refuel a gas tank compared to the fully automated fast charge station. Look, you don’t even have to get out of your car!
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:30 pm)A 1 kWh genset is underpowered and not recommended for high power cell recharging in any modern electric vehicle application that I’m familiar with. If you were a cultural anthropology major instead an EE, you would figure out that any choice involves tradeoffs, extra weight, space taken and complexity among them in this case.
Having said that, I suspect the Volt engineers are actually trying to optimize their EREV app, with the intrinsically superior off the line torque, near linear acceleration and quiet operation of electric drive foremost in mind.
Jul 13th, 2009 (12:32 pm)“as you would not want to attract attention to the sound of your generator running while parked unintended in some neighborhoods.”
So GM intends to have a “gansta” mode? That would be blingy.
Jul 14th, 2009 (2:56 am)The Mitsu IMiev claims even better efficiency : 100 miles on 16kWh and 63hp (certainly only urban cycle) :6.5miles/kWh ! On the other hand the car has been designed from scratch for EV application.
70 miles for the E-mini is if you use it at max power I guess, another comment says it can get 127miles/ charge which seems more realistic for 35kWh. difficult to compare …
Jul 21st, 2009 (10:45 am)Hi, first time poster.
The problem is not so much the connection. The problem is the grid capability. Which grid today is in a shape to handle hundreds or thousands (and eventually millions) of cars needing these types of power requirements? The picture you provide proves Dave G’s point. Quite clearly the grid can handle very few of these types “fast charges”. And then add in the strain of these “fast charges” turning on and then off hundreds of times a day.
Quite clearly “fast charging” is not an option with-out some sort of buffer / electric reservoir separating the grid and the “fast charger”. And that’s why Better Place hasn’t got much to worry about “fast charges” making swapping obsolete, any time soon.
Aug 12th, 2009 (7:39 am)Okay, so I would like to ask a stupid question. I understand that there was an issue with the charger before BMW could release it without it being UL listed. Why aren’t the chargers integrated straight into the car? It seems to me like it would make more sense, not to mention that it would really suck if you were caught somewhere without your charger. Also, I’m not sure how the home charger gets connected, but I do theatrical lighting so I often find myself near a rather powerful 3-phase connection which to me, seems like it should probably charge pretty quickly.