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GM VP: Plug-in SUV on Track, Pure EV Under Consideration
Tom Stephens is GM’s VP of product development, the position formerly held by Bob Lutz. In a new interview with Reuters, Stephens provided some insight on GM’s electric vehicle plans.
Stephens intends to be aggressive about staying ahead of the competition when it comes to delivering an electric car to the masses. “I can tell you that I won’t lose one day in terms of customers being able to walk into dealerships and actually purchase a plug-in,” he said.
He also believes the market is ripe for such cars. “I think there’s pent-up demand for the technology,” he said.
Stephens confirmed GM is working hard to be sure the Volt will deliver customer satisfaction right out of the gate despite the first generation’s lack of profitability. “My job is to get it out there and get it right the first time but then get it cost-effective so that we can do a huge number,” he said. “If I had to go with my first generation, we couldn’t really pencil a business case.”
“Any new technology is expensive, but if you get to the second or third generation you find that the cost goes way down,” he said.
Stephens also confirmed that work on the plugin-hybrid SUV originally slated to appear as a Saturn VUE remains on track, but wouldn’t confirm which brand or vehicle will get the drivetrain. Outside sources have told GM-Volt.com that this program may remain more symbolic than full production. At this point GM has only committed to bringing these vehicles to fleet testing. Other sources have suggested the plug-in SUV will be a new Buick crossover that hasn’t been revealed.
And in the first public admission of such, Stephens indicated that GM might consider launching a pure small EV. He did not confirm a program for such a car exists yet, though previous leaked reports have indicated the possibility.
Source (Reuters)
July 7th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
We’re right behind you, Mr Stephens. Get that Volt I, II and III out in fine fashion and lead the world in affordable electric cars!
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Sounds interesting but somebody will have to explain to me why, if GM’s plans to sell a BEV, they wouldn’t make it a BEV Volt. With all of the sunk costs in developing and optimizing an EREV Volt, developing a BEV version would be effective, quick, easy, and cheap.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
The pure-EV program may be aimed at the Volt fans who seem to be obsessed with the idea of tearing out the range extender. This way GM can have something to give them and avoid the massive lawsuit that will erupt when a user rips their engine out, wires around the computer to avoid it stopping the car when it faults, and then gets upset when the battery given them third degree burns one day as they try to fast-charge it.
I know that sounds both paranoid and insane, but locally we had a guy sue when he nearly killed himself with a defibrillator. He kept overriding it till it shocked him, stopping his heart. Legal fees can get ugly, even for the dumbest suits.
I do like the idea of a pure EV from GM with modern technology. I just wish people would stop trying to turn the Volt INTO one when it’s not built that way. At the very least there’s a big battery and software difference.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
They might want to make it distinctive. So that first adopters can have ‘boasting rights.” It doesn’t matter to me. But Prius sales vs. the Toyota Camry hybrid sales leads me to believe that it does to other people.
Additionally, they might want to start with a Cadilac BEV, so that they can charge more, and make money on the first generation. That’s how they usually introduce new technology. It makes sense in terms of financials–although from a marketing perspective, it could be a really bad idea…
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
For a pure BEV, 40 miles is probably not enough.
Keep in mind that the Volt’s chassis is designed for the 40-mile pack. Vehicle handling, crash safety, everything is for that 400-lb t-shaped pack. Making the pack larger would basically be a new design.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
No, it doesn’t need to be a bigger battery, but it would have more market if it did. They limit use to 50% of the battery to keep 40 miles AER for 10 years and to have some in the tank for long hills. As a BEV, it needs would be different and it may make more sense to use 60-75% of the battery. The car operates 100% as a BEV until the genset kicks in, so the “software difference” is basically dropping some code and opening up more of the battery SOC. Also, removing the ER part of the Volt would free up enough room to add a fifth seat back in but this would require a little redesign. The IMIEV claims 100 miles with 16KWh. This is not realistic, but 75-80 miles is.
There are lots of good reasons to offer a BEV Volt option, especially for a company with limited development resources, but no “real” bad ones that I can think of.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
If a case clearly has no merit and the key facts are not in dispute then many legal cases can be resolved with a motion for summary judgment.
Yes, some stupid cases still may get to court. I don’t think GM is worried in the slightest about someone ripping out the range extender and then filing suit, or at least no more worried than they are about someone filling a gas tank of an Camero with nitroglycerin and then their relatives (because idiot is dead) filing suit against GM because the Camero exploded.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
If people want to use the Volt as a pure BEV-40, they can just keep the gas tank empty…
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
There are way too many what-ifs for me to ever consider a pure EV. Cars that run on electricity, gasoline, and E85 are the way to go. It’s not just fuel choice, it’s capability. For example:
• What happens when I forget to plug it in one night? Given my typical frame of mind when I come home at night, this is a lot more likely than running out of gas.
• What if someone calls and invites me to a party tonight, but I drove a lot today, so there’s not enough charge on my battery to get there?
• What if it gets really hot outside and there’s a blackout which lasts until the next day?
• What if I just found out that my brother, who lives 250 miles away, had a serious accident and is in the hospital, and I don’t want to waste time renting a car?
• What if I plug in the car, but the plug on the other side of the cord has fallen out of the wall?
• What if I have it on a timer to take advantage of night-time rates, but the timer fails?
• What if I plug it in when it’s raining, and the GFI trips?
The list goes on…
Pure EV’s will be a tough sell for the masses. EREVs have most of the benefits of EVs, and none of the range anxiety issues.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
I’ve a 2003 Diesel 2500 4×4. Gets 24 MPG hyway, 15 MPG towing 5000lb large boat. Give me a like size plugin please. Looked under mine and if you put a electric motor fore and aft. there is a lot of room for batteries. Lets get something we can use. make it diesel. TKS.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Because to make the Volt a BEV where people would accept the range and performance would require a much, much larger battery pack and that would put the car in a very expensive neighborhood. Most current Eco-EV fans don’t really care about size, styling or status. They just want a car with nothing but a plug and an affordable price tag. So the logical first step for a BEV is something like Mitsubishi is bringing to market or even smaller, like an A class car. GM will have to lean on their Korean friends for the platform I would expect.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
I agree with about everything, but I insist, let me put in my 2 cents worth.. there was a newer start up company, and the name escapes me, but they used an older Saturn Vue, and made it run with the Lithium-Ion clls, and paired them with Ultra-Caps. They were afraid of “Battery Bashing”, too much demand on the cells alone, they claimed Lithium cells don’t like to be sucked on rapidly, they want to be sipped from, now to my question….
If GM does build a truck, and they use ONLY Li-Ion cells, will they hold up to the expectations of most truck owners? I don’t think GM would have any larger BEV than the 1500 series, but still, they haul a LOT! Not only that, but range, what range with a load, 10 miles? Just some thoughts, but remember EEStor, they’re lurking around the turn still.. (I Hope)
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Just because only fleet testing is committed to or planned that doesn’t mean it won’t reach the showrooms. Why wouldn’t GM let a plugin SUV go beyond fleet tests?
What says Nasaman?
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Can the site handle me coming at this one? I’m just itching to go at it again…but, maybe I’ll sit one out, in the interest of world peace, lol.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Fire away . . . both barrels.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Tom Stephens … “I can tell you that I won’t lose one day in terms of customers being able to walk into dealerships and actually purchase a plug-in,” … “I think there’s pent-up demand for the technology,”
48,703 on GM-Volt.com wait list and Tom “thinks” there’s pent-up demand !!!
Will all 48,703 of us be able to purchase a (Volt) November 1st 2010 (”won’t lose one day”) ???
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
This is a nice post, thanks DaV8or. I was going to post something similar. +1 for you, (=
Battery pack it up…and strip it way down. Give it a low cDA, maximize the gearing, and give it a ‘just gets the job done’ electric drive motor to maximize the range.
There is no reason why a 25kWh pack can’t eek out 200+ miles, if that is specifically what it is engined to do. $15,000 worth of pack, $10,000 worth of car = $25,000 worth of car, and that is the ’sweet spot’ (imo).
Side note: I think that is Mitsu’s long term plan with the I-MiEV…well it seems to be, if you believe their goal of cutting the MSRP in half by 2015.
I will also note that seems more than a little ambitious to me, and I call shenanigans on it. I’d say if they (or any other EV producer) cuts the MSRP by even 20% by 2015 that would be fantastic, so I’m not holding my breath at all. (The future is seemingly always a utopian place to car executives, lol) ….I’d still just like anyone to build me a fricken 4 seat EV that I can get serviced locally already.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Will all 48K purchase one at the proce Volt is likely to sell ?
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Pure EV is not for singles. It is ideal for a family that has another gas car.
Ideally I’d like an EREV and an BEV until EVs get to 300 mile range.
I’m quite sure as EVs pickup we will have fast charging stations nearby in every urban environment. Gas stations and Starbucks would be the ideal place. Probably McDonalds and other chains too.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
There is some advantage of having capacitors even out the load on the battery cells, but as the pack get’s larger, that advantage goes down.
In other words, if you need a large pack to get the electric range, then you will naturally have enough power for peak load without stressing the battery cells.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
A plugin SUV/CUV with less than 10 miles of electric assist wouldn’t save that much gas over a regular non-plugin hybrid SUV/CUV.
It’s not the plug that makes a difference, it’s the electric range.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
I had it all typed out, and in the can, ready to submit. But, I think I will let it ’slip into the night’ A night off all around, (=
/it would have been glorious, lol
http://www.suburbanhomerecords.com/mediafiles/vinylcollective/Seinfeld_s7e21.jpg
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
Well said. It seems really that simple to me also but there must be some part of the equation of which I’m not aware because the manufactures are stuck in perpetual ‘Fleet test’ mode and cannot seem to get a BEV to market.
Stew
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:51 am
Have you ever heard of a thing called a “TAXI”
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:52 am
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:25 am
Hi Statik and all of you,
I think what is between the lines is the electric Trixx announced in May by Vauxhall/Opel :
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/235580/tricky_price_for_new_trixx.html
Regards,
JC
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:53 am
The part of the equation that is missing is that the car statik described is a $10 000 type of car that barely moves (”‘just gets the job done’ electric drive motor”) that will cost you $25 000 to buy. For those $25 000 you can get a much better “normal” car.
What statik described is basicly a Think ( http://www.think.no )
Gas prices are still too low for that to be appealing. Battery costs are still way too high for a pure EV to be affordable.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:18 am
Yes, I”ve heard of a taxi – tried one, too. They are VERY expensive for long trips, like the theoretical “brother in the hospital” above.
Your dumb-ass suggestion has been given due consideration, and filed in the appropriate waste paper recepticle.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:23 am
I thought that fleets usually used purpose-built trucks or interior modified vans to do business – not SUV’s… Odd.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:31 am
Only because there is a boat load of case law to back them up. How many lawyers will see freeway capable BEVs as the new promised land because of their newness?
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:32 am
It would be a tad more efficient w/o the ICE. Incentive for change?
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:53 am
Engine will need to cycle every so often…..so gas is required
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:58 am
“the cost goes way down,” he said.” – I like what I’m hearing Tom!!
VOLT Gen 2 for 2014, under $30K.
GO EV !!!
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:02 am
Engine will need to cycle every so often
___________________________________
Clearly with no gas that won’t happen. Question is what kind of fault codes will that set up. Can you run indefinitely ignoring them? Can they be reset by customers? What additional maintenance concerns will be created?
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:11 am
I won’t….. not enough money. If I could though, that is undoubtedly the car I would aim for, assuming I don’t have the funds for a Tesla, lol.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:24 am
Whilst not everyone on the list will buy a volt, I’m sure there are many more people not on the list who will.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:55 am
Well I’m all discouraged. I talked to Holden NZ yesterday and they confirmed that ALL Volt production is now coming from the states, so although we are ’slated’ to get some at the end of 2011, if they sell well in the US it could well be 2012 or later before we get some.
In other news the guy told me the diesel Cruze gets 41.26 mpg, which seems not too bad, unless you won’t buy without a plug!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/motoring/2440328/First-drive-Holden-Cruze
/Sucks to be a long way from the production plant.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:19 am
The Volt is coming and it will get here as soon as possible I am sure.
I’m just saying…
Don’t forget the following vehicles GM if you want to make money.
Converj.
CTS Coupe.
C7 Vette…yes the one in transformers…and DO NOT Water it Down…not the lame renditions in Car & Driver.
Camaro Z/28 (you can barley build enough SS Coupes)….listen up GM Build it.
Face Lift the Malibu Now.
Take a good look at the VW CC Do something like that.
How about some clean Diesels for Gods sake man…VW is number 4 and closing very, very fast.
Think like Harley Earl, Style like him. Just do it.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:39 am
C’mon Dave G, we both know that if they dropped the 400lbs or so of ER components it becomes more 45+ miles. We also know they could easily use 10% more of the battery without any detrimental KWh/lifetime affect, which brings it to more like 55 or so miles. Then, if LG chem’s chem is like every other chem out there, they could use more like 70-80% which brings it up even 65-75 or so miles. At 16KWh, it has the same size battery as the IMIEV. There is no need to sacrifice the battery for the calendar in a BEV and force a 10 year warranty.
Just because you do not believe BEV’s to be a good approach doesn’t justify saying things you know are wrong. BEV’s with 16KWh capacity under today’s circumstances will certainly have limited market appeal but this is why BEV version of the Volt makes most sense since there is very little development. It would be an option for the Volt instead of a whole new car development. Besides, I think a 16KWh BEV Volt is a much more marketable product in the US than the IMIEV or like vehicle. There would be very little added cost for GM to let the market decide.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:57 am
Regarding the SUV, I expect this will be an updated version of the Saturn Vue plug-in.
Will it be a Cadillac, Buick, or other remains to be seen. I’ll guess it will be a Buick, as depicted in one of Lyle’s recent posts.
If so, this vehicle looks to have much improved aerodynamics, which is important. In addition, it will have an updated 2-mode system. See this link for more info:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/01/14/saturn-vue-plug-in-hybrid-to-begin-production-in-2010/
Now the new BAS+ hybrids from GM will use Hitachi batteries. Here is a link to what these batteries may be:
http://www.hitachi.com/ICSFiles/afieldfile/2004/11/26/r2004_04_102_2.pdf
Note there are two batteries, one for HEVs (high power density) and one for EVs (high energy density). I would suspect that the HEV model is the one GM would select for the BAS+ applications.
However, for a plug-in application, it might make more sense to look at the high energy pack. However, at only 30 volts, I’m not sure GM would want to use 10 of these packs in series at 29 kg each.
Also, since they are purchasing the high power packs in volume (100 k per year), then it might make sense to use multiple high power density batteries in the plug-in. So let’s consider 4 of these packs in the plug-in. They weigh 80 kg (176 lb) and with two in series, two in parallel, have a voltage of 346 volts (current 2-modes are 300 v). They can produce over 100 kW of power, and have an energy capacity of 2.5 kWh.
With 80% depth of discharge, they can supply about 2.0 kWh. At 200 Wh/mile (slower speeds, as mentioned in above article) , this equates to 10 miles of AER.
With improved aero, 2-mode, and the 2.4L DI engine from the Equinox (rated 22/32), this could produce a small SUV that gets 35/35 without plug-in considered. With the 10 miles AER, this could be an effective 50+ mpg.
Note also, with ~190 hp from the 2.4L, and ~60 kw from the electrics, this equates to 270 hp, or about the same power as a V6. So you get great performance, excellent economy, and the utility of a small SUV.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:06 am
The same model comparison problem has been said often (and be me too) and has some merit. But…I do believe it is also an oversimplification in this situation. Yes, there certainly are sales lost to ICE only versions of the same model but I think there are enough ICE options on the market that even the Prius loses those sales too just to non-model ICE vehicles. This just can’t be easily quantified. I think the main thing the Prius has going for it is that it easily offers the best uncompromised fuel economy in the US market (diesel is compromised in the US market IMO).
Imaging if there were no Prius or Insight or new Fusion Hybrid. The Camry Hybrid would pick up a lot of those sales. The 2010 Camry Hybrid is 34mpg estimated hwy while the ICE version is 33mpg. City mpg is much improved 33 vs 22, but that is not enough to convert consumers that don’t rank fuel economy as a top priority. Most of those that do see fuel as a top priority are buying the Prius. Only the ones that also see looks (and don’t like the Prius design) or size as a top priority won’t consider the Prius. In this sense, the Prius takes a lot more of the Camry hybrid sales than the ICE Camry does. I think the anti-hybrid, anti-EV marketers and believers have done a good job convincing a willing public that hybrids inherently don’t make financial sense. The misinformation or bad information spread by ignoring residual values, increased fuel cost considerations, and individual driver habits also feed into the Camry sales numbers.
A BEV Volt and EREV Volt dynamic would be much different, eventhough you are correct in that the BEV version will take some of the EREV sales and vice versa. A BEV would also bring in new buyers as well. Also, it would do more to lay the EV1 criticisms to rest (RIP). The most important reason though, is that the BEV consumer is fundamentally not an EREV Volt consumer. This buyer will seek an alternative BEV if one is available and would only begrudgingly pay the ER premium. It is much less likely that person will have brand loyalty for their next car purchase. I really don’t think a BEV Volt will canabalize Volt sales any more than any distinct BEV’s will unless those BEV’s offered significant less value in other areas (size, aesthetics, function, etc).
The choice is develop a BEV for siginificant cost or offer a BEV Volt for barely any development cost. That just doesn’t seem to be much of a choice to me, unless they made the new model for a different market, e.g. a small pickup truck.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:10 am
Maybe you could keep a backup moped in the garage, but do use a helmet.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:10 am
NZD .. the first 10,000 Volt will be out of my price range. Am interested in owning a Volt, but not to the point of paying a premium for the first lot. Fall of 2011 delivery is more realistic.
=D~
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:10 am
From the article
Stephens also confirmed that work on the plugin-hybrid SUV originally slated to appear as a Saturn VUE remains on track, but wouldn’t confirm which brand or vehicle will get the drivetrain.
People wants big vehicles. SUV’s and trucks make money for GM.
I truly believe a Voltec SUV and Voltec pickup truck are a must make item.
They will sell.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:15 am
The plug in SUV is a great idea and should sell well. I was out at a dealer last night to sit in the 2010 Equinox. The standard 4 cyl / 6 speed auto combination claims 32 mpg. The interior is roomy and the head room is good. If they add the plug in hybrid option to this vehicle (which already boasts better specs than its competition), it should sell very well.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:32 am
Just another note, if GM was to get a special battery for this application, let’s say something half way between the two discussed above, the energy density would be 60 Wh/kg, and the power density would be about 800 W/kg. With an 80 kg pack, this would equate to ~64 kW of power, about equal to the 2-mode motor requirements.
For AER, with 80% DOD (3.84 kWh), the range at 200 Wh/mile would be 19.2 miles. Since most people drive less than 40 miles per day, this could in effect double the EPA mileage rating for gasoline only.
Since the Volt’s battery pack at 8 kWh usable can be recharged in 6 hours with 110 VAC, if the Vue’s takes 4 or 5 hours, it seems that it must have more capacity than 2.5 kWh.
Either way, this could be an extremely popular vehicle.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:42 am
If you run out of gas, that is all that will happen without diagnostic fault codes. OEM’s don’t set codes if the gas gauge is working (no percent errors mathematically conflicted with ER distance).
Clearing codes no longer can be performed either by the customer or a technician.
(whaaaaaaaat?)
Yes, as of 2010, fault codes can no longer be cleared in most vehicles, because when a company like Auto Zone does that for someone, Auto Zone is guilty of throwing away 45 average minutes of test initially-set and critical test data, and, most often. permanently throwing away un-resettable critical code information, component test information, and on and on and on.
Next, Auto Zone shallowly and always always always “interprets” fault codes WRONG, WRONG WRONG.
But wait!! There’s more!!! They load up a box and throw anything randomly-sounding like what a code says, sell all that to a victim, and, furthermore, loads up that victim with all manner of false expectations that the car can be “fixed” with just a relatively minor amount of money in that the customer now is led to believe that he/she has “the informed valid knowledge” with which to “cost-compete” one shop against another. Auto Zone causes the person such invalid expectations, that there is immediate distrust, disrespect, arrogance, technical dishonesty, unreasonableness, and hostility all directed at honest shop service writers, technicians, and owners. This is why most shops do not purchase parts there. This is why OEM’s have helped out the independent shop (and their dealer techs) by preventing the clearing of fault codes. 97% of the time, a fault code must have 7 to 10 sequential tests performed in order to get only to a “problem area” where further hand held testers finally confirm the 2.5 average number of coexisting problems.
The blind leading the blind then become agitated when they apparently not only do not achieve repair effectiveness, but ultimately Auto Zone wastes the time and money of both the hard working auto repair shop as well as that person who walked into Auto Zone in the first place to get their car “free information”. 118 of my 126 shops do not buy from Auto Zone.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:48 am
Idiot…
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:56 am
Hmmm…I know you know this is coming but it must be said. I can’t believe this comment passed the same fingertips that has heaped so much praise on the 16KWh IMIEV. The EPA AER confirmed by GM shows the power usage of the Volt will be pretty similar to the IMIEV. How much do you think a high production BEV development cost would be, $500-$700? How much additional cost would a BEV option for the Volt cost, $50M or so?
They could look at a smaller motor and lower rated power electronics but doubt it would make sense developing those and the additional control logic that would go with. It would probably be better to add the volume to the Volt’s hardware. Lowering the CD is equally important to EREV’s, if not more so. The problem is that you end up with an Atpera or EV1 shape that limits functionality. Lowering the weight some more is great to but then you have to use exotic materials or shrink the car. I believe the Volt is at the limit of practicality for many people.
If you lined up a 16KWh BEV Volt vs a 16KWh IMIEV, I believe 9 out of 10 would prefer the Volt. The question then becomes, how much more would they be willing to pay? Accounting appropriately for the development costs, GM could offer a BEV Volt for $35K more profitably than could offer a EREV Volt for $40K. They also could have offered it sooner. Clearly we are passed that now, but they certainly could offer it at around the same time as the EREV. Who will they be competing against at that time?
Getting back to the comparison of the IMIEV to a BEV Volt. I do not buy into the notion that all or even a majority of BEV consumers want the cheapest BEV available. Just look at the consumers to date and the Prius consumers. Most of them are consumers of means. They will buy the BEV that best meets their needs just like every other car consumer does, except that the top priority for them is to buy a BEV. As long as that BEV has sufficient range, then most will by the better not the lesser BEV. Certainly more range is better and the Volt could easily be offered with an additional 9KWh pack option. Pop this into the packaging area for the Genset and it is easier to develop in the sense that the suspension doesn’t need to be modified for the lower wieght.
Either way, I think taking advantage of the EREV developmental costs to offer BEV’s is a HUGE potential advantage that GM should utilize. There are so many opinions, obfuscations, etc about what the BEV market might be, taking advantage of an EREV platform to test this market is a good way to find out what reality is without dumping a lot of money into the process.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:58 am
True dat
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:17 am
NZDavid
Don’t worry.
Buy a Cruze.
Be happy
/ get a nice Volt picture and post it on your wall.
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:23 am
The comments by Mr Stephens seem like standard GM. “We’re going to do everything, so don’t push us too much on any one thing.” In the meantime, they are hard at work on GM blandification of the Volt.
/well I hope not, but it seems so
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:29 am
It’s Camaro, not Camero. Now give me lots of down votes. I don’t care, I’m a Chevy guy.
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:32 am
Lol, Koz…I just call them like I seem ‘em.
I agree there is a large market for ‘nicer’ EVs/EREVs, not everyone wants a *cough* stripper *cough* but in this case, the cost of a ’stripper’, while cheap in respect to the spectrum of EVs (and in appearence to a standard ICE) is still at the very top end of the majority of Americans (and Canadians) car budget…around $25,000.
BTW…really nice post, I enjoyed it.
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:34 am
I think a plug-in version of the Equinox or some to be named Buick would be a great edition to the GM stable, but man I would be horrified to ask the price.
I think a number of months ago (I’m too lazy to look back), but Lyle interviewed a lady involved with the Ford Escape Plug-in project. I believe the kind of number they were talking for that vehicle was in the 40 grand range as well. That should give us all a “heads up” here as to what a Plug-in GM vehicle would cost as it will be going head-to-head with the Ford Escape PHEV. I think Plug-ins are an awesome idea but after putting my realist hat on, I think mainstream consumers will struggle with rationalizing the spending the same money for an Equinox PHEV that they would have normally spent on a Tahoe that could seat more people and haul more stuff. The key will be making the plug-ins at just a bump up in price of say a few thousand dollars, don’t go heavy on content such as dvd players, leather, heated seats, etc. Make it nice, but keep it with-in reason. Also, pray for a tax incentive to apply.
Details, Details. Just make the darn things, and we’ll figure the rest out later!
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:38 am
What “cheap EV’s” are you referring to? “Cheap” and “EV” tend to be mutually exclusive – unless your talking about RC cars from Radio Shack.
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:41 am
No I was thinking of a main stream application. Something by a large player, that already has production of A-body cars…something that could be converted/reshaped, so we don’t get crap boxes like that, hehe. (Although if one of those was available to me now…I’d buy it, lol. I have no standards at all for my first EV purchase, the second one…totally different story).
I was thinking more like the fit and finish of something a entry level Hyundai frame could do. After all they sell the Accent at $9,970…and there is some margin in there too, because they sell it at a equivalent $8,580 USD in Canada.
Then you strip it down, take the ICE and related components out, and you should have more then enough margin to re-engineer and install the electric drive and pack for 10K or less. (then jam the $15 pack on top).
http://www.wallpaperpimper.com/wallpaper/Automobile/Hyundai/Accent/Hyundai-Accent-GLS-2007-1-GL86TX6JFH-1024×768.jpg
Sidenote: all this is just random side thoughts, passing the time, after reading DaV8or’s posts…shouldn’t take it too seriously
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:57 am
I think this is one of the most incouraging threads in a long time. It seems to me that VP Stephens understands that the Voltec platform is the interstate to the automotive future. There will be a time when BEV or something like induction [from the road] will put EREV in the history books. But I think this is a long way off. We will be buying EREV trucks, vans, vettes, suvs, and full size family cars in the near future. my guess would be in 5-10 years.
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July 8th, 2009 at 8:09 am
reply to me. 5-10 years is my guess for availability, not being mass produced and price competitive. More like the first Volts, very expensive.
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July 8th, 2009 at 8:29 am
A guy called Ross Blade in Melbourne, Australia does that already – he sells re-engineered Hyundai Getzs’ – they had a special deal with Hyundai to re-engineer 200 of these vehicles for the New Zealand market.
http://www.bev.com.au/
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=19303
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July 8th, 2009 at 8:43 am
I recently purchased a ScanGauge2. For the uninitiated, this is a micro-terminal for a car’s computer which attaches to the OBDII plug near the steering column.
I did this because the car I recently bought has no temperature gauge, just an ‘idiot light’ (which will only come on when it’s already too late).
The more I dig into the instructions, the more dangerous the device seems. Not only can it clear engine codes, a really savvy user could load gosh-knows-what into the computer.
For my own sake, I plan only on using the gauge functionality for things like water temperature and voltage, and maybe the advanced trip analysis functions.
This brings up the question, though; will the Volt have an ODBII plug (and won’t there need to be a new trouble-code prefix letter or letters to deal with EV-specific issues)?
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July 8th, 2009 at 8:47 am
I wouldn’t relish a 250 mile trip on a moped (I considered a little scooter when gas prices got high last year; but I also didn’t much relish a 45 mile commute, in the 3rd worse traffic in the Nation).
Remember, those things aren’t allowed on the expressway (for good reason).
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July 8th, 2009 at 8:55 am
There would seem to be a niche market for a short range high speed BEV as a second vehicle. One spouse works, drives an EREV, while the other stays home and drives the BEV to the cleaners, market, park, and drive and ride plaza.
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July 8th, 2009 at 8:56 am
It is the word First that is garnering all the negative votes for you. Other than that your comment is fine. IMO
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Does anyone remember any time table for release of Version 2 of the Volt? Is it the second, third, fourth or fifth year after release of Version 1? If GM wants to move to a more profitable version of the Volt, assuming Version 2 will meet that mark, maybe they plan on introducing Version 2 in the fall of 2011.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:09 am
“General Motors said it’s on track to introduce the Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid sedan in late 2010, followed by a plug-in sport-utility vehicle in 2011. Hyundai plans to have a plug-in hybrid on sale by late 2012. Volvo said that its plug-in hybrid will be “a reality” by 2012. Toyota will begin commercial production of plug-in hybrids in 2012, producing between 20,000 and 30,000 units in the first year, according to media reports.”
“Blue-Will is a four-door sports car powered by a 1.6-liter gasoline engine and a 100-kilowatt electric motor. Hyundai said the Blue-Will will get an estimated 50 to 55 mpg in the hybrid-electric mode and can travel about 38 miles in electric-only mode. “We’re going after Prius and the Volt with the plug-in,” said Woong-chul.”
It looks like 2012 will mark the beginning of foreign oil independence.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:09 am
I agree with most of your statement. My only observation is that if GM does make a BEV Volt it needs to be somewhat different in looks from the EREV Volt. Maybe offer it only in a two door model with a little sportier styling. But I do agree that if the BEV, if it is a Volt and looks just like the Volt, will tend to take away some sales from the EREV Volt. But both will pick up sales from a lot of other sources. To me a BEV and an EREV Volt would be two plus. It is all good.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:13 am
There is absolutely no reason why a battery pack cannot be devised to use both types of cell: power and energy density. I’d expect power to be used for most instantaneous power surges, replenished from the energy cells. A proportion of 1 – 4 (power to energy) seems about right for the CUV which until recently was named Vue.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Don’t worry.
Buy a Cruze.
Be happy
/ get a nice Volt picture and post it on your wall.
I think this is a great point if the Cruze gets the kind of MPG that I keep hearing then it will be a huge seller.
Without the high price of electric and great MPG Same basic car as a Volt seats 5. Many people who come in to see the Volt will say “Great car but I think I will take the Cruze”
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:16 am
You have a lot of options with just a BEV and no ICE. I think they would want to take advantage of those options. Plus there will be a lot of engineering anyway. For example, the battery will be bigger and will have to be stuffed somewhere. The balancing will have to be worked out. And a million other nitty gritty details. Might as well just make a new car, and as Laura said, make it distictive. I’m sure a large portion of the software development would be re-used.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:20 am
I recall hearing production forecast numbers for Gen 1 that go out 3 years followed by “then we’ll see.” I wouldn’t look for Gen 2 before 2014 or so.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:21 am
I have to agree most people want an affordable electric car when it comes to making some kind of decision. Miles per charge is important also. These are two strong arguments for GM coming out with an entirely new vehicle as a BEV. It will be Voltec technology, but will be packaged very differently to take advantage of size and weight of the new vehicle. GM has shown several new concept cars made by its Korean and European divisions that could fit the bill very well. Battery cost, size and density are the real deciding factors in whether GM puts out a new small BEV or a BEV Volt. I would prefer a separate vehicle from the Volt. Have two distinct lines of vehicles that will not confuse the buyers. They are not competing for the same customer base, in my opinion.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:26 am
It looks like GM had better stop looking over their shoulders at Toyota and worry about Hyundai.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Statik, for an entry level Hyundai that car looks pretty darn good. It would certainly make an interesting BEV. Good points.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:31 am
NZD,
If you’re willing to do without any dealer support, someone in the community could probably help you find a way to hook you up with a Volt on the down-low. I did it with a computer program for a buddy of mine in Mexico years ago. Helped him evade a Mexican import tax (post-NAFTA, funny that) that would have had all the free-traders here screaming bloody murder (before I got my law degree; and we’re now well past the Statute of Limitations). Granted, shipping a car isn’t as easy as FedExing a package of computer software. But where there’s a will, there’s a way my friend.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:35 am
It could also be a plug-in 2-mode version of the Chevy Equinox. The 2010 is being heavily advertised as a class leader for fuel efficiency. Adding a plug-in to the Equinox line-up would enhance the storyline.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Dan,
Just last night my son-in-law was looking for an AutoZone to check out his Taurus code. Should he go to a Ford dealer instead? What’s a good option for him?
TIA,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!!**********NPNS
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Thanks for the link, Marinko. It was interesting. A vehicle like that could have an impact here in the U.S. GM could do what Blade is doing, just on a bigger scale.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Some quick ballpark thoughts/calcs regarding a Volt based BEV
If the Volt gets 40 miles using 50% of a 16 kwh battery pack, then as a BEV it could use closer to 80% of the pack (perhaps employing a more BEV optimized battery chemistry as well), raising the range to about 65 miles (ignoring the effect of weight savings).
However, having taken out all of the ICE related hardware, it’s likely that some of that extra space/weight/cost would be used to expand the battery pack as well.
The EV1 employed a imilarly shaped 26 kwh pack at it’s peak, which would translate to about 100 or so Volt miles at 80% utilization.
However, if Tesla can shoehorn a 53 kwh pack into the space of a Roadster, I’m guessing that GM could find the room to stuff an equivalent sized pack into a de-ICEed Volt chassis.
Voila, just over 200 miles, using 80% capacity. Now we are getting range competitive. Cost competitive is a different story.
Perhaps this would work as a Cadillac based competitor for the Model S or Karma.
For a more reasonably priced BEV alternative though, I think GM would need to follow Mitsubishi’s lead, with a smaller car and thus smaller battery pack. That would not be a Volt based car, so it would have to be a new chassis.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:50 am
THE competitor in this arena is clearly BYD, which already has Volt-type vehicles for sale (at an astounding $21K) with far greater electric driving range (50% greater, to be exact). That “cheaper (and better) hybrid down the road” that Stephens is mouthing about, is here. It’s here, Tom.
Whistling past the graveyard, it seems.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Would there be enough space in the genset-bay (’Generator compartment?’ ‘Under the hood?’) for a second “T” pack, with the genset removed? Would this cause disastrous center-of-gravity / overall weight issues?
Just wondering.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Hyundai is the only car company that actually builds the container ships that they use to float thier cars across the globe.
Hyundai is big. Bigger than GM. Bigger than Toyota. Monster big. Global conglomerate big. Massive resources big.
Big.
Never mind GM. Toyota needs to be looking over thier shoulder.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:03 am
This executive has spunk !
He already is light years ahead of old man Lutz. Maximum Bob was slower than molasses running uphill.
You Go Tom !
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:04 am
You’re right on the money Koz … which is why Mitusbishi doesn’t have any plans to bring the i-Miev to North America. The release is in Japan where the driving cycle is far more mild and there are very large rebates for EVs. Then it will release the car in Europe which also has a different driving cycle (more importantly Europeans have different vehicles for different purposes but the result is the same).
One thing Mitsubishi has done right are the cells — they’re very large so Mitsubishi doesn’t have to use a lot of them (88 for 16 kWh) and it can maintain them quite well. Assuming GM is right that you can significantly lower the price in Gen II or Gen III, Mitsubishi could double the pack size and the car would be viable. The sport version of the i-Miev is cute in a Japanese way and the car is roomy and practical. Down the road it might work — I’d be happy with one as a second or third car.
The one area I think you’re mistaken on is the cost of the Volt. From what I’ve seen/heard the cost of the Gen I Volt will be close to $48K. This is why GM is planning on a very limited production run — even at a MSRP of $40K it’s going to be losing money on every sale. If GM could make the Volt for even $35K they’d be planning for an initial run of 60K rather than 10K. I think that’s what GM is aiming for with Gen II and Gen III, and it’s where the comment about a “huge number” comes from.
Of more immediate interest is Nissan. They’ve announced a major release of BEVs in NA. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:04 am
jeffhre,
Although I understand what you are talking about (no gas in tank) I hope no one does that with the EREV Volt version. Just does not make sense to do that. IMO.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Hyundai Rocks !!
They will be showing GM how to really make an electric car. Remember these guys do electric trains, which GM stole the idea for the Volt from.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am
I agree. I’m sure Toyota is very worried about Hyundai. And the Chinese and Indian up-and-comers. And then there’s the shrinking Japanese market. And the Japanese government very well may be running out of money for subsidizing new technologies. And now they have to worry about a more protectionist US. (The president has a vested interest in GM succeeding.) And now they’re doing miserably in the Chinese market. Basically, they have a lot to worry about.
However, I have to say, in terms of vehicle satisfaction, Hyundai still has a lot to work on. I rented a Hyundai for fourth of July weekend. Not by choice–it was all the rental car agency had. (I guess Hyundai is getting some of the rental car business from Detriot).
Anyway, I absolutely hated it. The fuel economy was fine–I think. But we had to refill it practically every other day. And there were a host of other little problems to numerous to mention (no alarm when the front seat passenger isn’t wearing a seatbelt, no alarm when we forgot to turn off the lights, etc.) There was no pick-up, but I’m willing to put that down to being a rental car. But, basically, I don’t understand why anyone would choose it over the Ford Fusion unless it’s a lot cheaper.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:15 am
It would almost certainly need a larger pack. The smaller the pack the more abuse heaped on the cells — more charge/discharge cycles and faster discharge times. If you double the pack not only do you half the number of charge/discharge cycles, you also halve the discharge rate. Note that this lets you use more of the pack so the range would increase. If you double the pack size from 16 kWh to 32 kWh the range would easily triple from 40 miles to something closer to 120 miles. (This is in part how Tesla gets its longer ranges).
Something like the Aptera might be able to get by on a 24 kWh pack because it’s so efficient. More normally designed cars will probably need packs in 32 kWh range. This is why BTW there is so much consideration of leasing the battery packs.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I disagree. Remember that the volt is comprised of a battery pack and an ICE/generator that add substantial weight to the platform. Adding additional weight in the form of battery up the weight of the ICE/generator should do nothing that would require additional engineering.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:20 am
You should add to the end of your statement “with current EV technology”. I’ll throw out some ‘in the near future’ statements for fun. What if you have several spare charged batteries at home can be easily swapped, or maybe borrowed from a neighbor? What if quick charging allows you to get a 40 mile charge in 5 minutes? What if there is the option to hook up a trailer-range-extender ICE in emergency situations? Just some thoughts that pop into my head. I have a list of criteria before i ever consider a pure BEV too (range, price, performance). But right now there aren’t many options for purchasing one (just Tesla?) As we become more electric, I think some of the problems you listed above will start to be solved. (In 10 years, lol, the magic #)
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am
I’m not betting that BYD is as big a competitor as some think, at least not currently. Sure, the price is cheap, but to a certain extent you get what you pay for. In this case, you get suspicious battery lifespan, suspicious crash safety, suspicious handling dynamics, suspicious mechanical and electrical reliability, suspicious interior fit and finish/quality, and suspicious body/chassis lifespan in more extreme climates (e.g.: snow and salt).
What looks good on paper isn’t always good in the real world.
Sure, there were lots of people that bought Ponys when Hyundai first hit North America, but it’s taken them a decade or more to reach mainstream levels of quality and reliability. BYD is in a similar position. North American and European automotive markets are much more sophisticated, and more highly regulated. BYD is a new player in a much more demanding market than what they are used to. It will take them some time to adjust and get up to speed.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Also relevant, the speeds the car remains in electric mode. (regarding electric assist cars)
It also depends on your driving habits. If you have a 5 mile commute to work, you would again be essentially gas-free.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:33 am
That train must have a REALLY BIG BATTERY if it the same tech as the Volt. Gm can’t steal from a train that does not have the voltec system.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:34 am
DaveG,
You make some valid points. That is why I think an EV and the Volt customer base may be entirely different. An EV makes really good sense as a second car. One that is used for housewife type errands around town. One that is used for commuting to and from work. Many other uses. How many of us do you think now own two or even more vehicles? I own three (one mini-van, one sedan and one small pickup). I would love to be able to replace one or two of the three with an EV. I would still have the mini-van, for instance, to take on long trips or make sudden, unplanned trips like the ones you described. Having an EV as the lone vehicle in a family (a family of one or especially more than one) would take some rigorous self training and discipline. How many of us could measure up to that? Most, if we really wanted.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:47 am
I don’t know if it makes sense for the few folks that would be in a position to try it. That’s why I asked the questions that Dan Petit answered.
Someone who lives in Hawaii, The Bahamas or Tybee Island Georgia, and never drives more than 5 to 15 miles a day may be tempted to avoid the use of gas at all. For all I know the engine may have fewer maintenance problems w/o gas than with it.
Near the ocean there will be rust and corrosion areas but in certain desert environments cars sometimes have little to no corrosion/rust issues that will affect engine wear.
Would GM support all electric use? Or would it cause warranty problems? Because I’m certain some will not need gas on a regular basis, and a few of those will try the Volt with no gas at all. GM seems to be anticipating all of the issues so far, I’m just wondering what they will say about those kind of questions.
And yes, I would think you could put in a few drops every few months and fire up the ICE burning off the accumulated problems. But for folks that will never use gas for the life of the car, that presents a new set of issues.
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:59 am
I agree. If you are going to justify EV’s economically, besides incentives, the only 2 things that can change are (1) cost of the battery goes down (2) cost of gas goes up.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:02 am
The electric busses in Russia were pretty cool. They were silent and took off like a sports car.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:04 am
At what speeds can the Blue-Will (weird name) achieve 38 miles or at least stay in electric mode?
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Current BEV technology makes a lot of sense for island nations such as New Zealand and for small countries such as Isreal. Full steam ahead. These should be the world’s test labs for battery technology……….
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am
There are some people so against umbrellas they will never use them.
There are some people so against cars they will never consider driving them.
There are some people so against planes they will never travel in them.
There are some people so against BEVs they will never consider them.
To each his own, as long as they are good with that decision; and I don’t have to hear their constant rationalizing about why that is the best possible decision, because myself and some of the other 6 billion folks on the planet may be dealing with a slightly different situation or mindset.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Taxis are expensive even for short trips. So are car rentals, although it would be a better solution than a taxi for a long trip. Have the EV and a second gas powered ICE or EREV car is more ideal. If you can afford multiple vehicles. Big if for some, I know.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:16 am
It really depends on what the consumer wants or the market(s) GM would get into. If they (the consumers) are finacial buffs and are trying to save money, it would come down to how many years before they could pay back the battery cost. If they are a greenies or EV-super-fans, the cost plays less into the equation, and they would be willing to pay more. If they just want raw speed and 100% torque off the line, then they shell out $100K for a Tesla.
Lots of options, just like with current ICE’s, which is good.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:19 am
This is great. A plugin small SUV and then “Cash 4 Klunkers” is going to get extended! Now I’ll be able to trade in my piecofsh|t 2002 Ford Explorer for a plugin.
YEEEEEEHAW!!
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:20 am
I would probably be the most surprised person on the planet if GM came out with an electric version of the 1500 series trucks. That’s a ton and a half size truck (like the Ford F150). I would also be surprised if they came out with an electric truck at first. I would be “pleasantly” surprised enough to go check it out if it was a small pickup truck. Not a heavy duty work truck. They are just not ready to do that, I suspect. A small electric truck that also had a commercial van sibling would be a real good entry for GM, if they could do it successfully. An electric car or truck needs to get at least 100 MPC. Can GM do it? I just don’t know. Maybe in a year or two. But if they want to get onto the EV band wagon before it is too far out from the station, they need to do it next year or early 2011 at the latest. That way they would be out front leading and not just doing a “me too”.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am
As has been said before, the barriers for widespread adoption of BEV technology are (1) energy density – need over 200 Wh/kg; (2) cost – need less than $400 per kWh; and (3) fast recharge infrastructure – need to fast recharge at a kilowatt per minute rate. Lacking any of the three, the BEV will be relegated to a niche market, or so it seems to me.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Don’t forget Fords little Escape Hybrid. By then it will drop in price and MAYBE a plugin?
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Maybe what GM needs to do to get an EV out the door is to take the Volt and cut out the second row seats and roof line behind the front seats. Close off the passenger compartment behind the front seats and make a small pickup bed in the back. Sort of like the old VW Rabbit pickup. That would keep a lot of the investment in Volt technology and body development and would not add a lot of cost to change the body. Granted they would need to do something to increase MPC to a spot as close to 75 – 100 MPC as possible. Could they do it? Successfully? Two good questions.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:30 am
It would have been “interesting” to hear your “take” on this subject. I hope you saved your comment for later submission. If so, like carcus1 said: “Fire away… both barrels.”.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Sorry, NZ. We had all hoped GM would build some Volts “down under” to help supply Asia, Africa and your neck of the woods. Maybe by the time the Version 2 hits the streets.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Geeeezzzzz one might think you have something against AutoZone.
Look I don’t necessarily disagree with your argument or logic however let’s be honest with ourselves here……. there are enough crooked shops and yes, dealerships out there that have given the business of auto repair a bad name. You only have to be bitten once by a “reputable” shop or dealership to be jaded.
I’m a savvy consumer and have an engineering background and have been a motor head since my father put a wrench in my 3 year old paw so I know a little about cars.
Recently I had an issue with my Toyota (not a Prius) that I had diagnosed to the point that I knew it had to do with emissions and the evap circuit. Long and short…. the dealership (service manager)didn’t listen to my complaint or findings, they performed the work they thought needed to be done and guess what? Not 20 miles down the road the car was running as crappy as it was when I brought it in initially. I had to have it towed back to the dealership which by this time was closed only to be told the following morning buy the service manager that it must be a different issue because they were sure they fixed the previous one.
You know, for the most part it’s been my expierence auto mechanics and computer repair technicians seem to think everyone who owns a car or computer (and the lines are becoming blurred) know NOTHING about their product and thus treat you like some rube. Be that right or wrong isn’t it far better to assume the owner is well informed and educated and to talk to them like they might know something until they prove to you otherwise? YES!!!! it is.
After the thrid go around with this dealership for the same issue I finally had to shout (literally) to get the service managers attention. Just so happened the dealership owner was in the vicinity and come over to see what was wrong. Still cost me over $600 for a part that cost less than $150 at a parts store but hey I got free oil changes for so long as I own the car albeit I would have to drive 30+ miles out of my way, schedule an appointment a week ahead and drop my car off for the entire day for a 15 minute oil change. Yep, let’s make the customer happy.
So…….. here’s the wrap up. People wouldn’t be so tempted to go to the Auto Zones if they thought dealerships and repair shops were giving them a fair shake.
Want the customer to think differently, do something about changing their minds with regards to the business.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Off topic but Tom Stephans totally looks like…..
http://www.hbo.com/films/recount/img/castandcrew/506×316_edbegleyjr.jpg
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Voltec pickup truck!
Voltec pickup truck!
Voltec pickup truck!
Voltec pickup truck!
Voltec pickup truck!
I wanna Voltec pickup truck!
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:49 am
ExtremeHybrid – AFS Trinity http://www.afstrinity.com/
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Thanks, BillR. Very good comment. I would hope GM can get a really good small SUV plug-in out on the market that gets between 1- and 20 MPC. I agree the vehicle will most likely come with a Buick name plate. They have the Volt for Chevrolet, the Converj for Cadillac and nothing for Buick. So what else would they do? Buick it is.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Just sitting in it is all you got to do? You could not drive it? I wonder how perky the 4 cylinder w/ 6 speed transmission is on the road. I hope they sell a ton of them.
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July 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Blandification.
Good term that may very well sum up all the changes from the Volt concept. It is what GM does best. Tone concepts down until no one wants to buy the production model. Maybe GM has learned its lesson. If not I know of a scrap heap just waiting for companies who continue to perform like that.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
OK boys & girls. Here’s a new twist on brake regen 4 u. It can be used on cars that are not even hybrid or EV or even on low speed city streets. Looks like a great idea.
http://www.newenergytechnologiesinc.com/motionpower.html
Google for: new-energy-to-test-motionpower-energy-generator-at-burger-king-d/
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
DonC said:
“You’re right on the money Koz … which is why Mitusbishi doesn’t have any plans to bring the i-Miev to North America.”
——————–
Just as information, (no commentary/opinion from me, lol), the i MiEV is confirmed for America for sometime in 2011. Press release follows:
“Mitsubishi imiev electric confirmed for us market”
April 9th, 2009
Mitsubishi has formally announced intent to sell it’s all-electric Mitsubishi iMiev in the United States before 2012.
Mitsubishi officials here at the New York Auto Show brought with them an iMiev outfitted with left-hand-drive in order to announce they intend to deliver a version of the Mitsubishi iMiev for the US market sometime before 2012.
http://jalopnik.com/5205336/mitsubishi-imiev-electric-confirmed-for-us-market
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Dan,
I don’t mean to stir the pot, but maybe people would be less inclined to check DTCs themselves, or at Autozone et.al., if dealerships/shops would charge more reasonable fees, or provide OBD-II checks as a courtesy.
<IMHO_rant>
A simple OBD-II code scanner is an inexpensive, easy-to-use tool. Businesses shouldn’t charge you more than a VERY nominal fee to cover their actual time spent (maybe 5-10 minutes) just to check trouble codes, any more than an electrician should slap an extra $75 “because I can” surcharge on you, simply because they plugged a current detector into one of your outlets.
</IMHO_rant>
Around where I live, it’s not uncommon for a dealership to charge $70-$120 just to do a straight-up 5 minute OBD-II plug-in. That tends to tick people off, if they happen to have half-a-clue.
Just my $0.02 USD.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
“… which is why Mitusbishi doesn’t have any plans to bring the i-Miev to North America. ”
________________
Mitsubishi confirms i-MiEV for U.S.
http://www.motorauthority.com/mitsubishi-confirms-i-miev-for-us.html
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Hmmm….
Maybe those flaps should be cylindrical instaed of the way they are now. What if you had to go in reverse?
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I would like to see Lyle try to photoshop that one Neal!
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
• What if your wife is not home? (she has taken her car with her)
• What if your wife’s car is in the shop?
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
LOL! That’s hilarious KDawg! Maybe Ed Begley Jr. can play Tom in the movie “Revenge of the Electric Car”. Somebody get Chris Paine on the line. Come to think of it Ed B. was in the first movie, wasn’t he?
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
What if your wife’s minivan breaks down, and you have to go pick her up?
The only pure EV I would ever consider consider buying is something like this:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s.php
This way, I could still afford to have a gas powered car or EREV for every person in the family.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I did not want to spend the time to drive it. I was on my way home from work and tired. I went to check out the Malibu (with the 4 cylinder / six speed combo at 33 mpg hway) and found that it is just too small for me. My head was scraping the headliner. Thats when I stumbled on the re-designed 2010 equinox with the 4 cylinder/6 speed auto at 32 mpg hway). I had tons of head room and getting in and out was easier.
Given my height, I fear that the VOLT will not be the car for me. I will try it but it is probably too tight. The Cobalt and Malibu are both cramped and the Volt will probably be similar.
A plug in Equinox Hybrid would be the next best thing for me and maybe my only comfortable choice.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
If the 5-mile route to work was all under 60mph and you go real easy on the accelerator pulling away from stops, then maybe a plug-in hybrid would not engage the gas engine.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
From the referenced Reuters article, Stephens said: “We’ve got a strategy that says there are no silver bullets,” he said. “We need all of this.”
______________
I say: “Right answer”.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
I read somewhere that the Ford EV/Hybrid engineers are of the same opinion. They said that they thought the smaller battery used in the Volt wouldn’t be able to deliver enough amps (ok, watts) to climb certain benchmark hills and accelerate as well as the bigger battery that would be used in a pure EV. So, they decided it was parallel hybrids and pure EVs for them. That rings true to me, at least for now.
That doesn’t mean that the Volt won’t be a great car. But I bet that it does mean that the generator will run when the driver asks for the absolute highest amount of power.
As for a cheap EV, could you point to one? I’ve been looking for years, and haven’t found a cheap EV that can keep up with traffic for even a short distance, yet. So far, the Volt’s my first best chance at a reliable, useful, and reasonably priced electric-ish vehicle with easily available spare parts. The Prius doesn’t count, since it’s gasoline-powered.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
What if your EREV or conventional ICE is in the shop and you don’t have a wife? Life throws us problems and we do what we can.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
But how will they re-capture the entropy?
Won’t this steal the energy i would be getting from my regen system on my Volt thus reducing my AER?
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Quit using big words damit!
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Maybe I’m a bit to pessimistic, but I don’t honestly see a mass revival of electric cars. I think it’ll be a nice niche concept, but I can’t honestly see the oil companies sitting by doing nothing while people go out to get electric cars…
That’s just my thought though…
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
That might actually be a good replacement for my Ranger!
But why not just make it into a wagon-shape, put a sturdy roofrack on it, and put the cargo on top? That way, I could haul people and haul stuff at the same time.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
You bet, Capt.
In a heartbeat I would buy one.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Other problems:
1. Snow/Ice
2. Plows
3. What if i dont want to decelerate at an intersection, etc
4. Weight difference between a semi-truck and a motor-cycle
5…. i’m still thinking
Could be good for consistent areas like weigh-station for semi-trucks.
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July 8th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I’m on the fence with this one.
I see your point.
However I am curious. Do you have some thoughts as to what the oil companies can do to prevent a “mass revival of electric cars”?
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
1. Snow/Ice (Implement Only in sunny parts of CA…lol)
2. Plows (See 1)
3. What if i dont want to decelerate at an intersection, etc (Even better – More traffic the better)
4. Weight difference between a semi-truck and a motor-cycle (Use dampeners)
5…. i’m still thinking (Don’t hurt yourself….lol)
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
“Won’t this steal the energy i would be getting from my regen system on my Volt thus reducing my AER?”
This I would have to argue. At those very low speeds, the RPM on the motor/generator would never be enough to reach 336VDC-400VDC (whatever the batt voltage is) to cause current flow into the batt pack. In order for current to flow, you have to have a “Difference in potential”. At low speeds, I highly doubt brake regen will produce anything at very low speeds. If it does, it’s shunted to ground to achieve Lenz Law effect for the “Brake” feel.
Also remember the Electric Motor is an AC induction which means the coils require external “Excitation” to induce a voltage into the secondaries to generate electricity. At some point it’s not vaible to apply any more voltage/energy to try and generate energy from low RPM.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
It’s amazing. A small 4WD car body pickup truck (think of a ER-EV or BEV Toyota A-BAT) makes a huge amount of sense for all around consumer use versatility, but they just don’t sell well (see Subaru Baja and others). American (and other) consumers often make very impractical choices, aided by marketing.
I’d seriously consider a car body (for handling) 4WD small pickup truck with any amount of electric drive only ability and > 30 mpg overall. Currently, consumers have no choices there.
Maybe I’ll get the forthcoming Peugeot 3008 AWD diesel hybrid and do a pull over chop job to the back for a Dakar style crossover/ convertible/pickup. Energy efficient, high performance torque and car handling, great on country dirt roads, hugely practical for daily use. Check, check, check and check.
In the meantime, a bale of hay fits just fine in the back of a Prius with the rear seats folded flat for that huge, wide open to the liftgate storage area.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
I agree. With current price/battery limitations, I think there’s a good chance that the pure BEV market will be saturated by 2014, since practically every major manufacturer is building one. Especially if gasoline is still under 3 dollars a gallon, which might very well be the case.
Personally, I think GM has an edge with EREV since they are the only major manufacturer making one. And, I’d rather they build more EREV models, than yet another BEV. (The converj, a 60 AER cruz, maybe an SUV. If they could do a truck that would be amazing.) Unless, of course, they can do it in 2011 before anyone else has theirs on the US market. But I tend to doubt that.
The plug in SUV is a completely different story. IMHO, they need to get to work on that pronto.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Unless the Gov(s) put a $2 tax on gas.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I hope they can’t, but if I were an oil company I would a) lower the price of gasoline temporarily if I could, b)lobby the government to limit subsidies, and c)produce an ad campagin labelling EVs as potentially unsafe.
Hopefully, they won’t succed with any of these. .
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
There is major barrier we need to get past. It’s battery warranty and life. I have worked with DIY folks and they have been using Li batt packs for the past 3.5 years. Most have had the same packs and still see the same range. The ones that b|tch about them are the ones that run them to NDE (Near Death Experince). That just means they drain at or below the LVC (Low Voltage Cutoff). Now what GM did is basically “Doubled up” and that jacked the price up like a mofo.
If they can just run the batt packs at least .5 volts above cell LVC and .5 volts below cell OVC (Over Voltage Cutoff) and limit drain to 2.5C then I think a batt pack will last and offer a much longer range than the current setup GM offers. Theoretically if they did that on the current batt pack you could get at least 70 AER
That’s just MHO.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Beer time….
I’m out for a while.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Pre-2009, there were an estimated 8,000 different fault code descriptions. So many, that small inexpensive code readers can not read but about 80. (The ONLY good system is a Genisys, where GM and other OEM’s download from their factories, all the access software to be able to request codes from hundreds of different processors). 8 average per car.
Access to Voltec systems will not come through a code reader at all. This is not a good thing for casual access as well.
EV specific issues will remain exclusively for GM to resolve.
As was mentioned in past topics, the system will safeguard itself and attempt to safeguard for safety as well by various means.
That means no-one but GM touches anything in a Voltec high voltage system.
Period.
Logic here is not only safety, but, where GM has warranty obligations, it is not just your Volt, it is in that sense GM’s volt too, (as well as your banks secured note Volt).
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
You know, I really dislike this “click to show comment” business. I take back my favorable rating on your comment and the same for the #1 commenter today – Luis. Let’s stop that “gimmick”.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
The speeds don’t seem that slow to me. Say from 30mph to 0.
Also, brake controllers are very sophisticated. I dont have the specs on the Prius one (John1701 where r u), but they are designed to maximize energy retrieval. It would be nice to have some speed/regen energy curves.
Regarding #3 above, i didnt know if you were joking or not, but if they slowed me down at a green light, they would basically be stealing momentum/energy from my car. That’s not capturing wasted energy, thats taking power from my outlet at home that I paid for.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Tag,
Find a service facility that has a technician that has the
ASE L-1 Advanced Systems Certification for one of their techs. Ask if that tech has a Genisys Scan System as of the 2007 upgraded model year with a “One Gigabyte System 3.0 Flash Memory Card”. (That 1 gig has 350 KINDS of bidirectionally commandable tests, some of which are pertinent to your car, that the L-1 tech will be able to utilize).
Request to leave the car overnight so that it is at bay temperature in the morning for that L-1 tech to run an
“Automated Systems Test”,
as well as the OEM
“Key On Engine Running” test. Ask him to press the”save” button after all tests so that they all can be printed out for you on paper (from within “Playback”).
Then, ask if that can be printed out on a “pcl3 compliant” printer (ie HP6940).
You can look my number up in Austin Texas (on Europa Ln.)
and I can guide the L-1 tech through a complete diagnosis for you.
(I do this all the time for people I’ve never met).
You might want to print out this post so that you can ask
ANY shop if they have an L-1 tech, an 07 Genisys, and can print the Automated Systems Test out for you.
(That, by the way, is a terrific way to find a good shop to do all your work).
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
And constantly be talking about the cost of battery replacement.
Would not work with me. They got me with the oil embargo and last year with the high cost of fuel.
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July 8th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
It’s not at all that shops do not want to give all customers far far more than just a “fair shake”.
There are just too many different automotive systems (750,000 plus) in an infinitely wide array of disrepair, unintended neglect, and, this is the most important thing I can tell you,
Systems are built so well, that there are few or no signs that anything is going wrong with one part when it devastates another part. Look at Jack Sparrow’s frustration two days ago about his 141,000 mile ford tranny going out after two years. While he didn’t say if the Alternator was the culprit, all alternators are the principal “bad boy” when it comes to devastation of electronics including the tranny, PCM, and on and on. Yet the owner can never know until something much bigger and more expensive goes out.
Codes by themselves mean nothing. Acting upon codes only is insufficient to put it nicely.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
A simple code reader is able to get only about 80 of the 8,000 codes.
What would you do if you got 25 to 60 fault codes reported to you? Nothing.
Training on live repair orders in the service bays are the ONLY way it works, my friends.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Of course GM is backing what they build. I would trust no one else.
Of course also, “normal use” will be defined in the owners manual, which I plan to read and strictly observe.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
If you are looking for a fuel sipping pickup truck you will not find one. Even the small truck lines from GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan and Honda all get bad gas mileage. The world needs a small pickup that gets 30+ MPG – even if it is smaller than the current small pickups from the above named companies. There just are not any. An EV small pickup (with or without 4WD) would be a really big seller. I know I would be very interested. IMO.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Yes, a release in N.A. plus a new name, if I remember correctly.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
The actor Edward Herrmann is a closer match.
http://www.flixster.com/actor/edward-herrman
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=edward+herrmann&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Personally, I like the looks of the i-MiEV. I think an electric car should look distinctive as much as possible. It should stand out in a crowd, so to speak. The i-MiEV certainly does that. It looks roomy and stylish. Get the price down to below $25,000 and the MPC up as high as reasonable and they will sell all they can make for the N.A. market. IMO.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Yupe, they talked about a possible name change in the original press release, and confirmed it won’t have the I-MiEV name just recently…which is good, I-MiEV is stupid (imo)
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
carcus said:
“… which is why Mitusbishi doesn’t have any plans to bring the i-Miev to North America. ”
________________
Mitsubishi confirms i-MiEV for U.S.
http://www.motorauthority.com/mitsubishi-confirms-i-miev-for-us.html
============================
I totally owned you by 3 mins.
(=
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Ditto.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
…but I landed on top of the dog pile.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Hyundai is also developing Hydrogen fuel cars. With the recent breakthrough in alloy research, expect the Asian car makers (who can make money) to start the research money switch to hydrogen.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Its good you got that shit on track and that other shit under consideration….
Now how bout getting some shit into production :O
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
I agree with you. My intent, if I ever purchase a Volt, is as I have stated in the past. I intend to keep a few gallons in the tank and about once every few months take a short trip out beyond the 40 mile mark to cause the ICE to turn on and run. I may even do it much more often than that by not plugging in for a few days until the ICE does come on and then let it run for a few minutes. I don’t want to use any more gasoline than necessary to keep the ICE properly functioning. I figure for every 10 – 14 days of plugging in I need to run the ICE for about 5 minutes. Maybe on the way home from work after not plugging in for a couple of days.
GM’s warranty for the Volt should prove an “interesting” read, to say the least.
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Absolutely!
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July 8th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Life is full of “What if’s”. And there is never enough answers to answer them all. But you make some good points. No one solution will solve all problems. Not now and maybe not ever.
The Zero motorcycle is a good example of what I mean by no one solution will solve all problems. It solves a problem for only a very small number of people. But to them it is a problem solver. I don’t doubt it and they are welcome to it. It is just not for me.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Wow, your reply was not only helpful but apparently threpeutic. I think I’ll tell him to get the car an MRI and be done with it (lol).
Thanks again,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
PS I’m one of those wierd ducks that reads ALL the manuals, so I totally agree that my Volt’s manual will be a real page turner!
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
OK. We have bee seeing reports on the AFS Trinity now for about two years. It is always written as if the technology is ready for mass production. But where is it? Can you purchase a vehicle with the technology? If it is that good, why don’t the company market it to GM? Maybe GM has a “Not Invented Here” attitude and will not talk to them about producing the vehicle. If that is the case then GM is STUPID if the vehicle’s technology measures up to the web-sites’; claim. Does It?
With Tesla getting federal loans to start production why can’t a company like that get money for its AFS Trinity, if it is all it claims? Good question. I wish I had an answer. Do you?
I am not trying to “pick” on you. I like what I keep reading about the vehicle, but I never see where it is moving towards any kind of production. Is it a scam? I just don’t know.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Check this out
MythBusters Hack Go-Kart in Extreme Electric vs. Gas Test
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/workshop/4264026.html
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
NZ,
If it’s any consolation, I’m so far from anywhere in Pennsylvania that the Volts may show up at your dealership before mine (lol). I guess I have the option of driving to NYC…..
Be well – and patient,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Off topic. The state of Michigan put up $779 million over 20 years in tax credits and financing to land the new small car for the Orion plant. $779 million to buy a few thousand jobs for 20 years. This is an extreme example of the tax-payer supported “capitalism” that we’ve been practicing for 20+ years in this country. I guess Tennesse figures they’ve already bought enough jobs from other companies – they were only willing to put up $20 million this time around. But there is one interesting line at the end of the article – apparently GM’s plant in Spring Hill TN will stop making the new Chevy Traverse by Thanksgiving. That was news to me.
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/biz/457514
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Say, CJS, it looks like from your comment that you would like to have a Voltec pickup. It took me a while to really figure that out based on how you phrased the comment. Next time make your self just a little bit clearer. Some of us have a hard time following complex written comments such as yours. LOL<
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Life is full of “What if’s”. And there is never enough answers to answer them all. But you make some good points. No one solution will solve all problems. Not now and maybe not ever.
_______________________
A universal truth – dunno. I do know that that’s why we employ our brains, our life experiences and learning and maybe a credit card to the situations we face during the day. Whatever you drive I’m sure you will find satisfactory solutions for your situation. LJGTVWOTR
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
I suspect you are correct about the Volt being a little tight for you. If the Malibu and Cobalt are cramped to you, the Volt will be the same, I’ll just bet. If it were me, I would hold out for the plug-in or a larger version of the Volt – like maybe a Voltec Orlando SUV. Better start saving your coins, though. Expensive is the by word of the “Green” movement. (To some the “Green” movement really means “green cash” in the bank because they see an opportunity to make some real dough on us suckers.)
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
It always sound good when we say build us a low priced vehicle like the Ford Escape hybrid by leaving off a lot of the high money options that we all just take for granted today. But when you start trying to cut out those high value options we find the list of options we want to keep is still pretty long. I agree that most of us could do without everything except an am/fm radio, a heater and an air conditioner. I could (and have) get along fine without all the rest of the “junk” they load on vehicles these days. But is that ever going to happen? I doubt it. I saw a Ford Escape hybrid a year or so ago and the sticker price, I believe, was around $34,000. More or less. I can not remember exactly. But It is a considerable amount above a base Escape.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Thanks. That was kinda what I thought it was. Of course, GM may be able to actually make a profit on the Volt before then. I would assume.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
All the chatter about BEVs not being a reasonable alternative reminds me that the Rav-4’s from the EV-1 era are still pleasing their owners. Batteries of many now over 100k miles.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
“It would be nice to have some speed/regen energy curves.”
I agree. Plotting how much energy is recaptured “INTO” the batt pack would be nice.
As for #3, your right, they would be taking your kenetic momentum if you were to blow throughthe yellow or green. Personally at a stop is probably not the most ideal place. Probably best at a parking lot entrance.
Until I can see a plot of brake regen energy to be put in the batt apck then I can believe it but as for slow rpm brake regen, I highly doubt an AC induction motor can generate enough to put into the batt pack at low speed. The kwy phrase is Energy going into the batt pack”. Brake regen can be described as just using electrical energy ,Lenz Law, to slow the vehicle.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
kdawg .. that’s a fun link. Thanks for posting it.
Most people don’t realize that the issue isn’t about engine noise (or not). It’s about being ready when launch torque from the electric motor bends your head back behind your shoulder blades. The Volt will need a forward leaning head rest at the top of each bucket seat.
Even the GEM, with it’s sub 20 HP electric motor, has a good amount of 0-20 launch. 150 HP in the Volt sounds about right.
=D~
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Like several of us have said in the past, it is not GM or Ford that Toyota has to be worried about. It is the South Korean and Chinese auto companies. All other auto companies had better be concerned. These two countries will fully support their auto industry and push more and more (and better and better) vehicles onto the world stage. I would purchase a South Korean car with out any real worries. I can’t, at this time, say the same about a Chinese vehicle. I don’t ever expect to be in the position where I would WANT TO purchase a Chinese vehicle. If I could, I would never purchase a Chinese made product. It is just the “principle” of it to me (and I am sure to others as well).
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
When an imiev-ish type BEV is produced for around $20k with a 7+ year battery life, — this car will compete with any gas price.
/ I think this could happen within the next 5 years.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Mighty good “ballpark thoughts” about a BEV Volt. Myself, I am hoping for a vehicle that is separate from the Volt. One that will be distinctive as an EV. The Volt is not distinctive in its looks in any manner except as a more or less aerodynamic “normal” looking car. I want an EV that stands out and screams “I AM AN EV AND I DON’T USE ANY FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC OIL”. But, hey, that is just me. That is why, I guess, the i-MiEV would suit me just fine if the cost was very close to or under $20,000.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
I don’t know where you mean by “its here”. It certainly is not in any country outside of mainland China and will not be for awhile. It will not make it to the N.A. market for years to come and it will still be a Chinese made vehicle.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Hyundia also owns KIA, doesn’t it?
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Funny you bring that up. James and Dave at evcomponents.com retrofitted a 2008, or was it 2009?, anyway, they converted a brand new Rav4 ICE car to a full on BEV with 100 cells of 3.6VDC 100AH cells (36KWH Pack) and was sold for ~$58K. Yup, ~$58K. This tells me that people are ready for BEV’s. They just need a source.
For me I just need an inexpensive source…..lol
But I am building my own later.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
GM is the company that made the hybrid system in use by trains today, if I remember correctly. So, if I am correct, GM did not have to “steal” anything. They already owned the technology.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
I’ve seen that before. Don’t you just love how the electric was much heavier but much faster in the acceleration?
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Everyone has a right to their own opinion. Unless, of course, you voice it and enough people disagree. I don’t agree with you only because I don’t know anything about the “new” guy and I did know enough about maximum Bob to respect his accomplishments. He is a car’s man man. If you know what I mean, which I am not sure you will.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Yeah, Mitsubishi has been making vague promises like this for over a year. This is just a press release suggesting a present intent for a few cars to end up some “test fleet” so that the infrastructure in Portland can be tested. If you might think this counts as “releasing the car in North America” then the Volt — with its set of test IVs that can be driven in places other than Portand — has already been released.
The battery pack won’t fly on a NA drive cycle. You may not understand this but Mitsubishi does, which is why the press release is more about infrastructure than the i-Miev.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Exactly! You get what we have come to expect from China. Good cheap products that have a low price point and don’t last. Plus the added benefit of toxic waste added to the products they send over to us that are killing our children and making our “manufacturers” using them to make their products for our market rich, rich, rich.
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July 8th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Ever heard of the Chevrolet Orlando concept?
http://images.google.com/images?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=chevrolet+orlando+concept&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=EQlVSsfOItyMtgfm-5mnCA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4
Just drop in a Voltec system and extra battery capacity (because it should have extra space to handle it) and you have a dream EREV Volt type vehicle for the masses. Hey, I would take it with only a 20 MPC range.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Here’s what I don’t get. Did GM just say “We’ll double up on the pack and use 50%” without even testing other LVC/OVC voltage points?
IMHO, I think a 12.0KWH pack can achive the same thing the current one can do with the same life.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
I think there is still lots of room left in the Volt’s T pack… and if they could open up the usable capacity up to a normal 80% then you will get a substantial range increase. The 10 year battery warranty is the issue.
How much does the ICE and associated hardware weigh?.. I guess 350lbs.. no idea how removing that would affect electric range, perhaps 10 extra miles?
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
I always though Herrmann would have made a good actor to play Franklin D Roosevelt. Just something about him always reminded me of FDR.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Kudos to GM for finally coming into the light with plans for a small EV. I sure hope GM has a lot more under wraps than they are letting on and hope development is well under way. They may still pull this one out of the fire if so. Kudos on the SUV part as well.
I don’t think we have until 2025 like a lot of carmakers are planning (Ford plans to have 10 to 25% of their vehicles “electrified in some way” by 2025 which means probably 90% weak hybrid and 10% super expensive EV IMO).
We may have already past peak oil in 2008 but the experts need a couple more years of data to be sure. The next probable date is 2015. In either case, we will be in for some tumultuous times economically if we are still this dependent on oil. We won’t avoid any of the economic and social strife the way we’re going now. I don’t understand why the auto industry is taking such baby steps when they know full well that we are heading full bore toward the abyss.
http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5544
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/006347.html
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
You can count on that as much as you can the press releases from the other 497 car companies that have said they are going to release an EV in 2010. What you can count on is that the i-Miev is not going to be released in North America during 2012 much less before 2012. If you read what Mitsubishi is saying, you’ll note a complete absence of anything that even smacks of a promise to offer the i-Miev to the general public through a dealer or otherwise. At the most you’ll see something like the Mini-E program, and probably you won’t even see that.
An EV that could run out of juice in 20 miles is not going to cut it in NA. There may be a market for a NmG — hey, Myers Motors has enjoyed some sales — but there are a lot of brand risks for an established manufacturer offering an EV with such a limited range. This is why Mitsubishi is so focused on the charging infrastructure.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
lol…..
U guys crack me up.
I can really use a pickup more than a sedan/car. We already own one of those non pickup devices.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Here’s a thought. The Chevron patent on NiMH battery tech expires in 2013.
Toyota could run with that ball for a 2014 model year exact duplicate of the RAV4-EV, to go on sale the first of the month AFTER Chevron’s ownership of NiMH ends.
GM could follow suit if they have the stones for it… Just sayin’
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
“if the Vue’s takes 4 or 5 hours, it seems that it must have more capacity than 2.5 kWh.”
Nah…
The charge rate is governed by whatever GM wants to set it as for “Best Life Expectancy”. If you look at typical charge rates most if not all that are LiFePO4, it’s .3C for charging. The slower the charge rate the longer the life, theoretically. This is the rule of thub where hard drain rate must be inversly proportional to charge rate and vice versa. In a nutshell, if you drain high you charge slow, if you drain slow you can charge high. A give and take. Just a rule of thumb though.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
on Laura M’s a) point above
The easiest, cheapest and fastest way to lower the price of gas is to produce desireable EVs, which through consumer preference for substitution away from full gasoline vehicles will shift gasoline demand inward and thus lower the price of gasoline. Increased adoption of EVs thus means that full gassers, especially the most inefficient (and profitable for auto companies) ones will make economic sense longer than they would have otherwise. This has already happened with full hybrids, so in a very real way the fuel savings Priuses get have been subsidizing Hummer drivers’ operating costs. It worked to extend the life of the sellers of biggest monsters until this year. It’ll take more than that to continue – It’ll take mainstream penetration of full hybrids that get better mileage than same sized diesels (Prius gen III and Ford Fusion hybrid, for example), plug in hybrids, parallel, series (Volt, for example) and dual-multi-mode, and full EVs.
Isn’t economics ironic?
In other words, why wouldn’t you think that oil companies aren’t behind promoting electric vehicles? It’s in their self interest to do so, as electrics will keep full gassers viable a little longer than they would be otherwise. The same for auto companies that want to sell hugely inefficient but profitable vehicles for longer than they would have otherwise.
The new thing helps the old thing out (think of the new year ushering out the old year).
Of course, with longer use of fuel inefficient vehicles than otherwise, demand for gasoline is higher than otherwise and the price higher than otherwise with greater profits for oil companies. All thanks to EVs.
Yet, EVs still do reduce imported oil use from volatile parts of the world and thus reduce the attendant high military costs, reduce air pollution so they reduce health care costs, keep transportation energy dollars in the domestic economy and provide consumers with operating and maintenance cost savings, luxury quiet and near linear acceleration and better performance (max torque off the line and instantly at any time up to about half the maximum speed , lower center of gravity).
Again, isn’t economics ironic. Electric drive just plain wins and wins and wins. Now, we just need the energy carriers to get cheaper and have faster/easier/more common recharging/swapping through large scales of economy, consumer adoption and aggressive market forces.
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July 8th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
I’m not sure that would be a smart bet in the long run. Even without the patent costs those batteries from a raw materials standpoint cost more than many of the lithium chemistries. If one was going to invest capital to ramp up cell production I would think one would want to stay away from nickel based chemistries, unless those cell manufacturing facilities could build both types of cells easily.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
“Under the Hood?” Why limit yourself? The only reason cars have hoods is to do maintenance on the ICE and the fluids. With a BEV, most of that will be gone … no tune-ups, no oil changes, no belts. Maybe there will still be some coolant, but a little minivan-style hood should be good enough for that.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
I don’t know–a lot of people bought hybrids over the past few years. There will be EVs available–and enough environmentally concerned citizens to buy them. We’re in the middle of a world-wide recession. (And I don’t think we’re going to see a v shaped recovery anytime soon.) And Iraq’s oil is about to become available.
All of this could easily add up to relatively low oil prices for the next few years. I agree that we are close to peak oil. But it could take longer than most people think. And in the meantime, we could easily become complacent again.
This is one major reason we need a consistent energy policy–as in a gas tax. To take out the uncertainty, and ensure that we will be prepared when we hit peak oil.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Yes it does.
Hyundai also does electronics/semiconductor manufacturing, and heavy equipment manufacturing, and a few other things.
In truth, the company was spit up into individual units a number of years ago, so they aren’t directly related anymore, but at one time Hyundai was South Korea’s largest conglomerate.
Having said that, I’m sure that the former parts of Hyundai still communicate and colaberate quite often.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Mind you, if China can avoid civil war, and subsequently degenerating into a fractious group of city states (again), they just might have a shot at following the path of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers.
Based on current news coming out of the middle kingdom though, that’s not a given. There is historic friction between the affluent coastal cities and the poverty stricken interior, which has lead to many a cycle of “lets get together” and “I hate your guts”. It would tak a monumental effort to break that cycle, and the current global economic situation is not helping one bit.
Personally, I expect that India will catch up faster than China, because they aready have a bette understanding of European, and thus North American, automotive markets and standards.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
The oil companies make a lot more money when oil prices are higher. (Demand is relatively inelastic in the short term.) But aside that–the stone age didn’t end because we ran out of stones. Yes, in the short term a few electric cars will make ICE cars more attractive to the regular consumer. But, in the long run, they can put the oil companies out of business.
First of all, battery technology is in a relatively early stage. The price could easily come down to the point where its cheaper to have an electric car–regardless of the price of gasoline.
Second, all the people with electric cars is reduced income for gas stations owners. Some of them will go out of business. That will make it that much harder to fill up–making the electric car that much more attractive.
Then there are all the other advantages of electric cars–quieter, faster, etc. Add them all together, and the ICE car will start to look like a film cameras. (Try to buy one lately? They’re not to easy to find, even if you prefer them.) And, trust me, Chevron and Exxon do not want to be Kodak.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Agree. It is better to let all views be seen.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Yes, it would meet a real need.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I’m thinking the only useful place for this device is in place of a speed bump. In that case, if you’re going too fast, you deserve to have the city reap the rewards of your electrical outlet.
Otherwise, keep y’r damn paws offa my energy! I’ll take regen into my own batteries, thanks.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
But it makes it like picking from a box of chocolates!
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Such horror stories on error codes, auto parts and service facilities. Eeeek. That must be horrible.
I’m reminded why I have a full electric performance motorcycle again. If something goes wrong, it’s totally obvious what it is (like, I forgot to push the on button) and plug and play cheap replacement quick and easy while I send the offending part for a rebuild or recycling. The entire drivetrain system has one moving part and that part moves really quick for maximum fun.
I’m coming up on 10,000 miles and more than a year and my maintenance so far:
$30 in new brakes all the way around (5 minute DIY replacement) ’cause I ride hard all the time and keep on having to brake every time a full gasser in front of me has that pregnant pause as it starts to go or shifts (the full hybrids launch pretty good from stop signs and red lights, thanks to their electric motors).
I check chain tension and stretch once a month (within 0.0001% so far, need to replace for $15 when > 1.5% loose or stretched, already have the inexpensive replacement parts for a major upgrade to a higher performance race chain/guide/sprockets setup when it’s time), keep the tires properly inflated and use a bike pump to blow any potential dust out of my motor once in a while (I do endurance flattrack motocross racing and back woods trail riding and hunting as well as use it for my daily 26 mile commuter and in-town errand runner).
I’m also about 5,000 miles away from replacing the high performance rear tire, for which I also already have the inexpensive (< $50) replacement, while the front tire has plenty of life left. Yep, it’s rear wheel drive. BTW, that’s really good tire life for using motorcycle enduro tires the way I do in mixed use.
By the way, I figured out that my operating and fuel savings will more than pay for a new power pack within 2 years, when it’s expected to last much longer than twice that. So, I can add a new swappable (and upgraded performance) power pack every two years and still pay less overall than the closest equivalent (but worse performing) full gasser equivalent but have my vehicle performance increase over time (overlap on the packs lives = multiple pack range increase and a new, upgraded (performance, range, price) pack), rather than degrade as with a full gasser .
You see why I went to to an electric vehicle? It’s exceeded my expectations, exploding every internet myth and complaint easily. It’s not for everyone, but motorcycles are 10% of all new vehicle sales, and mine rocks, so it’s clearly for some folks. There are more choices like it in an amazing array (see the Piaggio (largest scooter maker by sales in Europe) MP3 hybrid, which uses li-ion, or the Brammo Enertia Motocycle (also li-ion) at Best Buy) coming on the market every week.
Mine actually falls into a new class – not an off road enduro or traction rocky terrain bike (maybe the 2009 (with the smaller rear wheel for extra traction in loose/rocky areas) Zero X Extreme to some extent), not a flattrack motocross (that’s the 2009 Zero MX), not a supermoto or motard (that would be a 2009 Zero S), it’s probably best called a highway capable mountain trails (excels on flowing, twisty, hilly) motorcycle. So I’ll call it the FTH road/dirt terrain class. Anyway, mine is already obsolete, bested by this year’s models and new offerings, so get yourself something new and fresh in high performance electric drive. It’s out there now.
Still, after all my miles and more than a year on the motorcycle, the thrill is still very much there, each and every time, with a Chesire Cat grin of electric drive torque – I’m gone in a snap, nothing left but my huge grin.
For a cheap teaser taste of performance electric drive , I suggest a family vacation that includes:
http://www.polepositionraceway.com/
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
From the sounds of what I’ve read here and other places, GM has done a ton of testing. Yes, they may be sitting on the conservative side of the fence, but I expect that they have the data to back up their choice in this matter.
I expect they would want to keep the pack size as small/cheap as possible, while still maintaining the required lifespan, in order to make the Volt as affordable as reasonably possible.
Compromise is a bitch.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
If I pay for it, it is my Volt, not Gm’s volt.
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
The Volt seems to be a hyper diva.
Does one want a car that is untouchable?
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July 8th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
That’s what I’m thinking here. Go with the souped up golf-cart for the eco-geeks, stripped-down and cheap. I’d think either a sporty little body like one of those little Hondas from the ’80’s or a geeky Mini-Cooperish box shape will work, either quite sporty, or Euro-geeky. Appeal to the geeky kids out of college without a lot of $$ trying to make a “green” statement. Stuff it with as big a battery as you can get in it; don’t worry about performance.
I also agree with those who think it should be distinct from the Volt. The Volt is for the same kid’s ten year or so older cousin who has a young family, probably hauls them in an SUV, but now needs a commute vehicle, also wants to make a green statement, but has more $$ to spend and has more of an eye toward middle-class status and luxury.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Perhaps you mean buses, but then again maybe busses, which can be silent and make me take off like a sports car too.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Officially Official: GMC adds Yukon Denali Hybrid SUV
Google for: green officially-official-gmc-adds-yukon-denali-hybrid-suv/
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
So GM press release we can’t take them literally on their statements…even when they don’t come to fruitition, but anyone else we can discredit straight out the gate before they even have a chance to be proven right or wrong?
Is that how it works in your world Don? Must be nice to never have to be proven wrong under any circumstance.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
In left field of the topic ballpark
I see over at Green Car they describe a scooter Plug-in with a parallel drive. It can operate in all electric mode or both or ICE only. Neither the top speed, nor the AER were given, but other than that, nearly every fact was provided. For example, the gas tank size is given.
Although the battery capacity is not given, based on the time to recharge, it appears the SOC window is about 2.2 kWh, which would probably provide an AER greater than 10 miles.
It is beginning to look like the parallel design is winning the hearts of the early OEM.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/07/mp3-20090708.html#more
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
It is certainly possible. Motors and controllers handle that kind of load every day in industrial and aerospace applications. The problem is that the amount of batteries it would take for a capable truck would cost way more money than most truck buyers would consider paying.
Perhaps after a few generations of small electric vehicles, battery costs will come down enough to make larger electric vehicles cost-effective.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
I think a small diesel pickup (like the Colorado, but not so ugly) would be a hot seller.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Has anyone looked at the Lion EV ford ranger?
http://www.lionev.com/Trucks.html
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
As a Zero electric motorcycle owner (mine’s an older model) , I bow before Dave G’s infinite wisdom and second his suggestion of a main family vehicle (electric or hybrid if preferred) and secondary specialty electric vehicles. That’s what I do and I love the flexibility, increased joy and overall savings.
He might also want to check a west coast Best Buy for the Brammo Enertia (it has a more conventional (gasser style) exterior, but less performance and range, lower top speed, higher price than the Zero S). The Zero S is a little more rude (though still clearly a commercial, mass produced product with some well known existing vehicles being quite similar (such as the BMW GX enduro has a look/feel sort of like the 2009 Zero MX flattrack motocross)). I go for raw performance (max torque, range, functional top speed and lightest weight) and the best frame geometry (the skeleton of every motorcycle that make some supermodels and others beefy caber-tossers) over colored body panels (I’d rather have both, of course), any day. Not that the Brammo isn’t sweet. My thought, though, is get the fundamentals (frame, performance, overall price) right and on track first, and you can always improve the patina, while it’s harder to rebake the cake underneath the frosting. Both bikes are in the supermoto class but the Brammo looks more street oriented to me and the Zero S more dual sport.
I also agree with N Riley, as motorcycle sales are 10% of all new vehicle sales in the US, so clearly not for everyone. Still, that’s a pretty hefty vehicle market size with lots of large niches for all sorts of performance electrics (moped, scooter, enduro, mx, trails, off road, supermoto, dual sport, standard, maxi-scooter, standard, street, etc., all designed as short range around town and country two wheeled vehicles with decent speed and performance).
Here’s an out of date and incomplete list of what’s already out there on the streets right this second:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motorcycles_and_scooters#Comparison_of_select_production_vehicles
By the time retail consumers’ Volts hit the pavement, performance electric motorcycle owners will have done a ton of long term, hard core, extreme real world testing of electric drivetrains system and energy carriers, the results of which are free to foot dragging automakers in those owners comments and race results (24 hours of Electricross (more than 500 off road miles at one time, no vehicle changes, comparable with Glen Helen open class 24 hour time winning results) , TTXGP (over 100 mph top speed, course records for the number of ccs (none), comparable with 1960’s professional race times, Glen Helen trials, etc.) , etc.. The main result is that they just plain work great in the real world for what they are designed for and for what they do well.
We can expect the same from the electric automobiles on sale. That’s not to say we don’t want improvements in price, recharging/swapping speed/infrastructure and range. But things are certainly already good enough to start selling and buying now.
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July 8th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Another good one RB!
I wouldn’t mind the first in the form of the Volvo B5L Hybrid Double Deck, and the second towed in back in the high energy form provided by the Tesla Roadster Sport. Talk about an ideal vacation package! I’d better stop though, my Mom calls rants like this just – greedy!
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Interesting write up for the Volt in the latest Car and Driver magazine:
They state, “Once the gas engine is on, the Volt will go as far as an additional 300 miles. But the electric motor is limited to the output provided by the 1.4 litre 4 cylinder engine nestled under the hood next to the electric motor. The engine is not used to charge the battery: all of the electricity the gas engine creates goes directly to the electric motor to drive the car. If the gas engine is turning 2500 rpm and making 30 horsepower, the electric motor will be limited to that amount of power.”
The article goes on to state, “We guess the 1.4 litre engine will be good for about 100 horsepower, which means that once the battery is depleted, the Volt will go from a 149-hp clipper to a 100 hp weakling. And should you want that 100 hp, the 1.4 litre will have to rev to it’s power peak, likely over 6000 rpm, and hold that rpm until power is needed. The Volt will be quicker as an electric than when it’s burning gas, a clear incentive to keep it plugged in as often as possible.”
So if this is the case then it’s understandable why GM wasn’t prepared to disclose to Lyle and other guest drivers how the range extender worked. If this is the case I think some of us are in for a big disappointment when the Volt is in Range Extending Mode.
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
I don’t understand where you are getting the running out of juice in 20 miles part. I believe it gets 160km on a much easier Japanese standard, but it can’t be that much difference can it? Doesn’t the Volt share the same basic battery capacity?
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Nickel is $7/lb and lithium metal is $300/lb. Am I missing something?
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I wonder if the Volt engineers might “force” the ICE to run for a little while once a month or so through software or something.
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
That’s why I think that, for right now, pure EV’s are for straight-up eco-geeks, but also, that there’s a market there.
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July 8th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Might be, they can’t put a battery in that truck with enough juice to pull that boat for under $100,000, even if it’s EREV and not a pure BEV.
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July 8th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Car and Driver doensn’t understand Voltec. The ICE and battery pack work together to power the motor. the ICE maintains the battery at 30% state of charge, which gives enough buffer to augment the ICE during acceleration/hill climbing/etc.
149 all electric hp. All the time. Not to mention gobs of torque.
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July 8th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
One would hope that if this is the case then GM would refute the Car and Driver article as it is mis-leading and hurts GM by misleading the public in it’s description the Voltec. This is precisely the image problem that the new GM has to deal with quickly and decisevily (sp??)
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
It is the case. It’s been discussed ad nauseum here on this website.
Bob Lutz defended the Volt on Letterman recently when he was publicly misinformed on a previous interview with Elon Musk of Tesla Motors, so GM is trying to get the info right, and correct it when it’s wrong, as much as possible.
Still, there’s only so much that can be done when small brained writers make a concentrated effort to be stupid.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
I could not find the article on the internet, but if it is speculation and not based on actually driving an IVER in charge sustaining mode, then the “cause” of the apparent “misinformation” would be GM’s failure to allow Lyle to extensively evaluate the Volt in charge sustaining mode.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Yes, you are missing something. The amount of lithium per battery is much lower than the amount of Nickel per battery, I’m trying to find specific numbers to work out a direct cost comparison.
I have seen it mentioned in other articles I have read that the cost of nickel was a concern for mass production of those batteries. I’m not against the use of these batteries if it makes sense to do so, I just don’t want to see the capital investment go to waste.
I realize that we could face a similar problem with any raw material, but lithium is much more abundant than nickel, so long term I think it’s a better option.
And I don’t claim to know enough about the manufacturing processes to know if facilities could be easily converted.
If it can work I say do it, but I just don’t think it’s a cut and dry issue.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Agreed, kgurnsey.
These gasser auto mags are full of people welded to the “old thinking” of gasser engine vehicles. Once all the popular cars are electric their “insight” will be worthless and nobody will buy their worthless mag. They have a definite interest in sowing confusion and misinformation about electric drive vehicles.
I haven’t read a single word of Car nad Driver in 5 years or so when I realized that they continually hyped the latest crap gasser this or that like it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Then next month it’s some other group of same-old-same-old gasser crap vehicles. You’d have to have a pretty short attention span not to get sick of it. Same goes for all the other auto mags. Not interested in the latest gee-whiz blah blah about gasser tech that should have died in 1997 if not sooner.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Lithium. Lithium metal is costly (about $50/lb), but the pure metallic form is not required for Li-ion cells. The actual lithium compound used to make cathode materials, lithium carbonate (Li2CO3), is considerably less expensive. The price history of lithium carbonate is shown in Figure 5.6. The average price reported for lithium carbonate in the United States at the end of 1999 was $4.47/kg ($2.03/lb). However, increased production in Chile and Argentina has led to a recent oversupply, and actual prices paid have been as much as 50% below the list, matching the price of only $0.90/lb from Chile and Argentina. A shutdown of the Argentine production due to process problems caused the price to rise again, but the price was still below list in early 2000 (Ober 2000). Recycled materials and sales from DOE stock put further downward pressure on prices. Large demand for batteries could eventually drive the price up. At the current list price, the lithium carbonate for the batteries in an EV like the Altra would cost about $100, and the material for an HEV battery would cost about $5.
4.1.4 Lithium
Lithium need not be produced in metallic form for use in Li-on batteries. In fact, very little metallic lithium is used, and because that small amount is used where it is produced, it is not a marketcommodity.
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/149.pdf
Granted the prices listed above are from 2000, I find it hard to believe that these materials now cost 300/lb, where did you quote that price from I have been unable to verify it.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
I did find the article, and it’s thier Cruze Mule review, from a couple months ago. There was no test in charge sustaining mode, so it’s all speculation.
The closest we’ve seen, if I remember correctly, is still Chelsea Sexton’s “scoop” when the mule “accidentally” drove by in charge sustaining mode.
Given all the technical info we’ve gathered though, coupled with an understanding of electric drivetrains, leads me to predict quite confidnetly that it will perform just as well in charge sustaining mode as it does on a full charge.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
I limit myself to the existencies of the EREV Volt which must be used as a starting point in order to save scarce resources. Adding a battery in lieu of the engine is an obvious idea, if possible.
If you want to start off with a blank sheet of paper, by all means design a hollow, car-size battery with room enough inside the hollow to sit four people; then hang in-wheel motors off the corners … if that’s what yanks your chain.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
That specific thing has been mentioned.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
I stopped reading the buff mags the moment I learned about Photoshop.
Seriously, it’s all about creating enough of a stir to sell a mag in a declining market for print material, or enough hype to get click throughs on thier site. Translation: Feed the consumer whatever it takes to bring in the advertizing money.
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July 8th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
A Voltec-derived truck might be possible sooner, if high power / high cycle batteries (or ultra-super-capacitors or something) come over the horizon quickly. Such a truck would run continuosly in the “range extended” mode, and there would be no plug. In principle, a sufficiently powerful generator and motor could pull virtually any load. If you don’t believe me, take a good look at a diesel-electric locomotive. The truck’s advantage over the loco would be the power battery which buffers the more rapidly changing load requirements found off the rails, in highway traffic; as well as regeneration and the ability to operate the engine over a narrower, more efficient range (where diesels excel, by the way).
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July 8th, 2009 at 10:04 pm <