AND 
Chevy Volt Has the Feel of a Sports Car, and Engine RPMs Follow Accelerator
In late June, GM completed the production of its first true to form Chevy Volt prototypes called integration vehicles. We were given a brief video description of what it was like to drive one by the car’s chief engineer Andrew Farah.
GM granted an interview with Farah to Automotive News who got some new nitty gritty details.
Farah was asked what it was like to step on the accelerator while the engine generator was running. “You get immediate response from the foot pedal,” he says. “Because the Volt is always driven electrically, you don’t even notice the difference there.” He also explained for the first time that at that point “the gasoline engine’s rpms then follow.”
Farah noted that because the engine isn’t directly connected to the foot, “it is one of the things we continue to tune.” He said “there is an expectation of what happens when you put your accelerator to the floor in the way the car sounds and feels. We’ve got the feel.”
“We’ve got the feel of a sports car,” he said. “The sound part and the way the engine plays into that perception is one of the areas we have to work on.”
Asked about vibration, noise, and harshness Farah said “we still have some work to do,” but that during his ride he was “very pleased with the first steps.”
“It was great,” he added.
Farah noted that the team is using “liquid applied sound deadener” and that in the front of the dash and glass there is “packaged-in sound suppression items,” that are also being tuned to perfection.
Farah says that during EV driving he is not aiming for the car to be “Cadillac library quiet,” because it might be “disconcerting” to drivers. He is focused on minimizing wind noise and conducted road noise.
He said transition from computer model to real car went very well although not absolutely perfect. He noted the team had a minor “interference with the instrument panel that we didn’t expect.” But that was corrected and “off we went.”
Asked if the car feels heavy because of the battery at its center, Farah said there are advantages and disadvantages to it. An advantage he explains is that the battery “lowers the center of gravity of the car” which is good from a handling perspective. However, he added the weight is not without detriments, but that his team is “taking the best of the advantages.”
In terms of what work lies ahead at this point Farah said “This is really just the beginning of all the final tuning. We are at the 50 percent point. Fundamentally, we’ve got everything directionally correct, but now we’ve got all the tuning yet to do.”
Source (Automotive News)
July 6th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
I can’t wait to see what it’s like when the ICE starts up.
We should also remember that software updates will be possible after the car is purchased so that the “feel” can improve over time. I’m guessing there will also be more options and even custom settings. Many things are possible with the electrification of the automobile.
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July 6th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Nice Wheels,
I wonder what the Volt will sound like when you “Blip” the throttle?
Who is in the drivers seat?
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July 6th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Hey did I win anything?.. I predicted that was how they were going to do it back a couple of weeks ago during the generator fiasco thread. It makes sense, you dont want to weird out the driver.
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July 6th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Thanks Lyle! That really is the kind of Volt story I enjoy reading about every time. The details that make the experience of owning and driving the first mainstream American made electric car and we have a view to how it is all being accomplished. When the politics are forgotten and the economics seem like a distantly interesting, experience we’ll remember this.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
It sounds like they are making the engine do things it doesn’t need to do like follow the throttle just so people aren’t surprised. I sure hope not.
Maybe it’s just the way he is describing it.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
The more I see this picture the more I love the looks of this car!
Todd
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
It does not have to follow the foot pedal exactly, just go up when the driver steps on it, and falls back when he slows down.. just so the genset is not racing when you come to a stop sign.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Sound deadining should be simple. Lots of methods. One thing they should’ve relied on is wind noise….AHAHAHAHAHAH….
The more noise from outside, the less they’ll hear the ICE.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they throttle the ICE according to speed. Why keep the ICE at high rpm if at low speed. Doesn’t really make sense especially if we all know that the genset WILL NOT fully charge the batt pack, just “maintain” a low level of SOC.
jus MHO
Going for a beer now, C yall!
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Why not? Current drain is directly proportional to your accelleration rate, so why not throttle the ICE since it will deliver the energy required to accelerate AND deliver the required energy to maintain freeway speed. If the ICE ran at “several sweet spots” then in many instances it’s going to run in a higher rpm range than it needs to be.
OK now I’m really gonna go getta beer….
/maybe there should be a setting called “ICE tracks Driver…”
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
That’s true, you are the man!
But somehow I’m a little disappointed in the decision. Someday that feature may seem like looking back at the first iron buildings and seeing imitations of fancy Victorian era wooden building details, so that people could get used to the technology without being weirded out.
I think the soul of the machine wants to be set free, as some advertiser might some day say!
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Ideally if in fact that the genset is designed to run at one most efficient speed, then I think that should be it. But the truth of the theory is that tunning at that speed all the time is a waste of fuel because it was designed NOT to store the genset energy, just maintain a low SOC. If the genset actually charged the batt pack to a higher SOC, say 80% usable, then this one speed genset would be perfect. But sadly that’s not the case.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Lyle is that you?
Anyway they have the feel of full throttle, and the sound is being tuned to perfection…
Perfection would be a Bizzarrini designed Lamborghini V12. Which always required tuning. How many people blip the throttle these days. Could I get a wave file for my cellphone?
What type of ring is that? It is Lyle blipping the throttle on a Volt!
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
I was thinking more of ICE fires up, then a steady movement up toward the sweet spot. Then maintaining until it’s reached the CDP SOC plus a few percent, then slowly settling or cycling down to the lowest speed, then off again.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
They should do what results in the most efficient throughput and insulate the driver from the ICE. There’s no engine sound in EV mode. Is that going to freak the driver out or lessen the driving experience? Vary the RPM as much as they want but don’t lose any mpg’s.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Totally agree — I thought the decision was disappointing as well. People who are brave enough to buy an electric car at this point in history are not likely to be “weirded out” by a different noise scenario — in fact, as a driver I’d be looking forward to it as something else to “show off” to my passengers. It’s always something I point out when driving the Prius, when I make the claim that the only ones who don’t like the quiet electric mode are the squirrels in the road.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
It’s not sad but smart they have chosen to not charge the battery to 80% with the genset. I don’t think hat is Arch’s objection. I think he believes, as I do, that they should reaonably maximize ICE efficiency while maintaining their “bring the battery home on empty” philosophy. It seems logical that varying the RPM slowly between several set optiized operating points would be more efficient. This is what GM said they would do around August of last year. Reading the referenced article, I’m concerned but not sure they have departed from this.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
The side shot of the black volt IV kinda reminds me of a Lexus IS09.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
People have to remember that none of us other than Lyle has even seen the car in person. Everything right now is just speculation. Does anyone really think that the current testers of the Volt are going to suggest something that is just weird? No, these are people to and they are going tell the engineers what they do and don’t like, what needs to be changed, and what they feel they can live with, and thus the consumer can live with. Saying that GM is making stupid choices is ignorance talking. Until I can see, touch and drive the car I can’t really say what GM is doing is wrong. I know I like the looks and concept. I would like to have control over how the ICE runs but I doubt that will be available.
What I really am waiting for is to see what aftermarket options will come to market. Do you think anyone will come up with a pull the ICE and drop in an extender battery pack to push the all electric mode to say 150 miles? How about 17″ special light weight low profile tires? Or how about some program change that improves the all electric mode for the style of driving the owner most often does (city – congested, short blocks with stop lights, long blocks with few stop lights…etc). An entire new industry may be starting up at the end of 2010.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
I think our drunken sailor friend has (I’m afraid to say it but…) the most prudent solution yet conceived. Post #5
“/maybe there should be a setting called “ICE tracks Driver…””
Offer the option of “Best Optimum” or what the Capt mentions “ICE tracks Driver…”, make it user selectable. “Best Optimum” can be whatever GM determines to be the most efficient programming.
This sounds like a really simple alteration of the sys programs.
Hat’s off to you Capt.
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July 6th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Not that I am into writing software code, however the the ICE may proportionally track the the throttle input depending on the state of discharge of the battery. In other words the more discharged the battery the faster the ICE for any given input. As discussed earlier the engine could be more efficient at a given rpm. I doubt at this point there would be a significant difference in mpg. When climbing Pikes Peak the car would eventually slow down as the battery reaches max customer depletion. I know that the point of the Volt is to use plug in electricity, however if I knew I was going to climb the mountain, could I charge the battery from the ICE before the attempt? I would think not, that could be a hack or an Easter Egg though.
I am sure GM will get it right, I just want to choose the color.
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July 6th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Does anyone know how long it takes to start the car – from a “cold start”? i read in an artical some time back it currently takes 20 seconds for everything to “boot up” before you can start driving, but a few seconds might be shaved off before the car goes on sale. Is this correct?
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July 6th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Look, the ICU has to go in the future anyway. Why not let me know how to remove it from the get go.
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July 6th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Why is there all this concern about making the car feel like it has traditional drivetrain? The whole concept of what noises should accompany acceleration is just based on our experiences with ICE technology. If EVs had been first we’d have different expectations. This is engineering being put to waste.
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July 6th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
Thanks for the article update Lyle. Nice to see the maturations unfold in front of us. Nothing is going to be perfect in this stage, but so far it seems like the issues are of a less critical nature. So it seems all good to me.
I’m not exactly sure how to interpret the engine response to the gas pedal, the Automotive News source article really leaves it open to some interpretation.
It could be that GM has tuned the engine to the driver’s expectation, but it seems like the article is saying that the response of the car itself is tuned to the driver’s expectation from a ICE vehicle (and not necessarily the engine), that the engine RPMs adjust in line with the demand of the driver post hence.
/I think a test drive is in order for you soon to give us the ’scoop’
(=
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July 6th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
This is all contradictory as well. Farah says that they’re using liquid sound deadeners, but they don’t want it to be “Cadillac library quiet” in EV mode? I’m sorry? Are Cadillacs the quietest thing in the world, quieter than an EV? They’re making it quiet but they want it to be quiet? WHATT???
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July 6th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Why not release 500 of these into the wild and ahem integrate them. See what real people think and implement what they feed back to you. What if 90% of the 500 people do not give a damn about the noise/sound and would trade the buzz for a $5,000 cost savings you may be wasting on fine tuning something not need of the extra effort. Think spartan think simple. Time is not on your side.
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July 6th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
I think what they need to do now is get as many people as possible that have not even heard of or care about the Volt to drive these IVers right now to get real feedback. The problem I see is engineers chasing problems and ideals that they perceive and latch on to, all the while not realizing that they are in a bubble. In other words, they don’t realize that they are so close to the creation that they can not be impartial or 100% useful critics of this car. People with a blank opinion of the Volt program are needed now to help with issues like this ICE engine noise problem and the way the car behaves on a day to day basis. Wait too long and the queses and second queses are set in stone.
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July 6th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
I believe that GM will endeavor to keep the ICE operating at its most efficient point most of the time.
See this link for info on operating efficiency or BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) for ICE’s.
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Brake-Specific-Fuel-Consumption/A_110216/article.html
After reading the article, you will understand that GM will likely operate the ICE at full throttle most of the time (except maybe at idle).
Now look at the first curve, and let’s assume the Volt’s ICE is similar (except for power developed by Volt’s engine about 1/4 of values shown) for discussion purposes. To provide power, the ICE might have 4 engine setpoints, 1500 rpm, 2000 rpm, 3000 rpm, and 4500 rpm.
For a light acceleration, the ICE would ramp up to 1500 rpm to provide power with reasonable efficiency. For moderate power draw like highway cruising, it might go to 2000 rpm with best efficiency. For passing on the highway, it could go to 3000 rpm and again have good efficiency. For rapid accelerations or climbing Pike’s Peak, the engine could ramp up to 4500 rpm to supply the 53 kW of power, with not so good efficiency.
So the software protocol could be to ramp up to the required power level with user demand (stomping the “gas” pedal), and ramp down with less demand. It also could determine average power draw versus actual power generation, and ramp down to 1500 rpm at highway speeds, for instance, to keep the battery at or near 30% SOC.
So GM will not only need to provide just average power, but will try to supply it when it feels “natural” for the driver. I’m sure this just complicates the software.
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July 6th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Since it’s just software, maybe they’ll give drivers the option. I’d like to see GM do something completely different, and allow drivers to have the option to seriously customize the car behavior.
Obviously, you want to put limits on what can be adjusted, and how far (for instance, setting the engine to always run at maximum RPM seems a bit far fetched), but it would be nice to be able to create a complete profile for the primary driver– since they’re talking keyless entry, I assume there’s already a unique ID assigned to the “key”.
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July 6th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
That depends– In an ideal universe, they use a dedicated HCCI or some such engine that runs incredibly efficient at one RPM. Since they’re using a production engine from another car that’s already been designed to run at many different RPM ranges efficiently, why not take advantage of the engine?
First generation Volt won’t be perfect. Second generation won’t be either. But the third? That generation will stand. Unless it catches fire, falls over, THEN sinks into the swamp.
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July 6th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
If I recall, there are two issues that can mitigate the start up. First, as I understand, the 20 seconds is essentially determining the condition of the batteries, and initiating heating or cooling as needed. Probably a lot of self-diagnostics at the same time.
BUT…
You’re supposed to be able to schedule the warm up time– so you can tell the car “I usually leave at 7:45 am”, and few minutes before 7:45, the car “wakes up”, goes through it’s POST sequence, and is ready to ride (including cabin temperature) by 7:45.
The other is that the keyless entry system is also supposed to initiate the warm-up, although I’m a bit hesitant on this one, as I don’t want the car getting ready to go somewhere every time I pass within 10 feet of it.
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July 6th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
The first generation of any technology resembles that which we are familiar with. The early cars looked like a horse and buggy (without the horse). Early planes looked like kits and gliders.
Also see Jeremy Clarkson’s complaint about the CVT in the Insight, where he bemoaned that it felt like a clutch slipping horribly.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:24 am
When my sister worked for GM, she complained that they’d work for months on soundproofing the passenger compartment, then some edict from some marketing executive would come down about how all dashboards needed to have a [insert trendy whatever], requiring them to tear out all their work to accomodate it. Then they’d run out of time or budget, and the car would ship with a rattley, poor-fitting dash.
She quit and changed careers *far* away from cars. She’s much happier now.
P.S. Why too many dealers are bad for GM? Aren’t they independently owned?
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:26 am
Yes indeed. Time is money and all this fine tuning to just make sure ignoramuses and soccer moms aren’t confused by the Volt is a waste.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:31 am
So… if the driver wants “engine response” when the throttle is opened, will the driver be confused and let down for the first 40 miles during battery-only operation where the engine doesn’e een come on at all?
Or maybe the engine should *always* race when the driver floors itm even during the first xx miles of battery-only?
Down this path lies madness.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:40 am
I’m disappointed as well. As I’ve mentioned before, let the E-REV be an E-REV and don’t try to make it a standard ICE vehicle. GM seems to think we want to drive a standard car, but if we did we wouldn’t be willing to pay a premium to drive something different.
People are more adaptable than GM thinks they are. Or maybe they just don’t get exactly how weird the coasties are.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:46 am
“P.S. Why too many dealers are bad for GM? Aren’t they independently owned?”
Fewer dealers means that each dealer is more profitable and has more stock on hand. The first means you get more advertising; the second means a customer has more choices.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:57 am
OMG. It’s heartening to see a few rays of cautious optimism shine through that canopy of caustic cynicism. Are you now willing to concede GM is roughly on schedule with the Volt and/or you don’t have to be a crazed fanboy to believe the car will show up in late 2010?
Agree that the next round of test drives with the ICE on should be most interesting. Hopefully Lyle will get a good spot on that list.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:12 am
I hope GM has someone with a good sense of business balance running the Volt program. Optimizing a Chevy to perfection is not good business (a Bugatti, ok). It would be easy to give in to the engineers and spend too much time and money trying to optimize the parts too much, just as it would be easy to give in to the accountants who want to minimize the cost too much. This car is about many things, but most importantly by far, IMO, is the no-gas driving part. Secondly, it’s about timing–the sooner GM offers the car for sale, the better. If GM falls behind the coming electric car tsunami, it’s eventual liquidation bankruptcy for them.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:15 am
Thanks! (Sorry I hit the -1 button, I meant to hit the +1. Second time I’ve done that…)
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:20 am
Previous photos looked good – the one pictured here kinda looks like a Prius that somebody stepped on.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:21 am
The driver in the photo is Andrew Farah.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:57 am
Hi. What’s this about not making the Volt ‘Cadillac library’ quiet, because it’s ‘disconcerting’? I’d like it disconcertingly quiet! … for more of a luxury feel.
This is a long shot, but maybe GM can make the noise level *variable*, so the base model can have a little noise, but the nicer model has a bit of modular sound deadening added (and is even quieter), so those of us who want silence can have it, and those who don’t can hear sound if they want. A silent Volt for me please GM!
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July 7th, 2009 at 2:16 am
After reading the postings here I sure am glad that Automotive Engineers are the ones “responsible” for the execution of the vehicles design and not the Volt .com bloggers .
It sure would be one messed up car if GM were to try to put this advanced technology together the way some boy hot rodders want it .
I wonder , do you think that GM is going to listen to your childish ideas .
It makes common sense that the engine will go faster as you drive faster and slows down when you slow down .
It doesn’t mean that the engine will scream when you hit the floor , it means that the engine will go faster as the vehicle goes faster , go slower when the car goes slower and stop completely when the car is stopped , come on boys grow up and be real . This car is not being built for you , it is being built for the global technological advancement and development of the modern automobile .
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July 7th, 2009 at 3:27 am
How about a switch for engine behaviour? Just like those switches for your automatic gearbox.
I’m thinking of an economy mode, where the engine alway runs on ideal speeds and one “donkey”-mode, where the engine howls when you lower your foot…
Of course the goal will be, to never use the gas engine
(Sorry if I don’t use the right words – I’m German, but I think you get the point…)
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July 7th, 2009 at 3:40 am
Agreed, Justin DT. (Apparently, despite the government’s best efforts, there are still idiots like Farah at GM).
WHY NOT CADILLAC QUIET? It’s an electric ear, for christ’s sake. Let me be quite clear on this…
I – don’t – want – to – hear – the – ICE – at – all. Got that, Farah?
The Volt is NOT a sports car. The “sports car” Volt died early on, in the wind tunnel tests. What we have now is an econobox, “save the world”, supergreen Volt. I will repeat for the mentally challenged (and Farah) – the Volt is NOT a sports car.
So stop trying to make the Volt into something it is not. What is Farah thinking – is he trying to justify the Volt’s price tag by making the Volt “sexy”? The Volt is supposed to be quiet. The ICE should be as quiet as current technology can make it. Having the ICE roar to life when you least expect it – THAT’S disconcerting ! Whatever happened to the idea of slowing increasing the ICE’s RPM’s slowly, so the engine would not “roar” to life ? How about active noise cancellation ?
It seems to me that GM is still deciding where they want to go with the Volt. Will it be a bold new moonshot, taking cars into the realm of silent propulsion (new GM), or will it be more of the same old “roar of the engines” we have been stuck with for the past century (old GM) ? Time will tell.
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July 7th, 2009 at 3:45 am
Why? Any engineering or “other commo sense” reasons you know of why you believe the engine rpms must be tied to speed (other than “Same as it ever was…same as it ever was…)?
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July 7th, 2009 at 3:58 am
Here! Here!
Or at least they could tell us if it using an Atkinson cycle. Everyone, accept Carcus1 of course (low blow, I know), already thinks this anyway so they really wouldn’t be giving anything away,
Non-accessory power draw at 60mph, level ground, no wind?
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July 7th, 2009 at 4:32 am
I sometimes drive the company GEM EV. Besides minor tire to road noise all that is heard is the electric motor rev sound. It is relaxing to be free of having to listen to a gasoline engine at all. BTW: I haven’t pumped any gasoline into the GEM yet. Has 3600 miles on it. Been to a gas station just once. This was to help a guy who had run out of gasoline.
=D~
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July 7th, 2009 at 5:43 am
For myself I’d rather the engine just go at the sweet spots so that I get the best MPG possible out of the car. As for my mother in law, I could see her crash the car into a tree thinking the accelerator got stuck. Even for her though a few weeks (maybe months) of practice and I’m sure that feeling of STOP NOW AT ALL COSTS OR I’LL DIE would subside.
How about giving us the option then
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:02 am
“Since it’s just software, maybe they’ll give drivers the option. I’d like to see GM do something completely different, and allow drivers to have the option to seriously customize the car behavior.”
There may be some danger of suits by startled drivers but you have a good idea there.
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:06 am
“For myself I’d rather the engine just go at the sweet spots so that I get the best MPG possible out of the car”
It could still use the sweet spots, it would just drift slowly to them. The key for NGM is for the thottle to go down when you lift your foot from the go pedal (not called the gas pedal anymore).
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:12 am
“Why not? Current drain is directly proportional to your accelleration rate, so why not throttle the ICE since it will deliver the energy required to accelerate AND deliver the required energy to maintain freeway speed”
For economy, the computer knows the best throttle and generator power output settings, the sweet spots.. in addition it “listens” to your foot on the go-pedal to give you the illusion you are in control. You want to be in control right?… you did spend a lot of money on the car
The car wants to make you happy, but it really knows best how to do the job.
Remember the days when the only transistors in a car were in the radio?
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:25 am
“In an ideal universe, they use a dedicated HCCI or some such engine that runs incredibly efficient at one RPM. Since they’re using a production engine from another car that’s already been designed to run at many different RPM ranges efficiently, why not take advantage of the engine?”
It really does not make sense to worry too much about the genset, it will seldom be used by most people. I bet there will be a large portion of Volt owners that will never have the genset turn on for several months.
GM did the best thing by using that genset. Apparently smart people are in charge.
Perhaps for marketing reasons you want a genset that will give 90 mpg or more, and thats fine.. but it will cost you.
In any case GM should have several different gensets in the parts bin for future Voltec cars, and maybe just offer them as options.. including the option of no genset at all.
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:29 am
Man…I just wish I could see things the way you do…
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:32 am
I’m a geek, I want the full 20 second start up sequence.. and I want the computer telling me about it step-by-step in a sexy womans voice..
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:32 am
Don, LOL ! I agree ! I guess this is what the dark side of the moon looks like ! I’ll bet someone at GM has the post above on their cubicle wall !
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:39 am
A Lexus?….really?…wow…about the only thing that the Volt resembles a Lexus IS09 is the price point…it looks like a Civic to me.
sorry, I dont know why I’m so negative about the looks of this car — that isnt what its about.
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:40 am
I’ve seen it in person (NY Auto Show)…didnt get to touch it though…
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:45 am
Agreed….except for the “previous photos looked good” part….
(man, I need more coffee – I’m in a mood this AM)
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:56 am
I am kind of on the fence about this issue.
I can see the point of having just a few sweet spots in engine RPM’s for the most efficiency. That is fine for me.
But I can also see the idea of having the engine also respond to driving speed, especially when stopped. My wife would be scared to death if she was at a stop sign, but she could hear the engine at some really high RPM. She would be afraid to lift her foot off of the brake pedal.
Most of the time, we would be running under battery power, so this is a moot point. But I think that “getting it right” for the ICE is time well spent. And I am sure that GM has had other GM employees not in the Volt project try this out and get their opinions.
I guess the “Caddy library quiet” version will be saved for the Converj……
NPNS
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July 7th, 2009 at 6:57 am
You are of course correct about any diffinitive conclusions about design and engineering specifics without knowing all of the facts but speak now or forever hold your peace. Soon from now Gen1 of the Volt will be locked in and not much will change unitl Gen2. If you’ve been following this blog, you know GM does as well. We may never know if there were any material changes to design based on what was said here but no person or company is above mistakes. Just look at the Aztek, great concept but terrible execution. Besides a lot of decisions are 50/50 choices and GM may be using input they see here to help them decide. They have asked here for input on some specifics in the past.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:09 am
Mr Farah, I want my Volt to be as efficient as possible, so the ICE should reflect this. If I wanted the engine to follow the accelerator I would save money and buy a Prius.
I expect form to follow function.
/What ever happened to the black wheels?
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:11 am
Are you saying that the Volt should not have Dual Exhaust with large chrome tips and a deep throaty growl for an exhaust tone??
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:15 am
Wouldn’t it be cool if you could download characteristics-options on a jump drive to transfer over to your Volt? As you got used to various “past operational characteristics” designed to “segway” your experience “out of ICE”, more efficient operational characteristics might be down loadable, or even OEM stock- resident in a characteristics-library displayed on the dash screen that you could just switch over to when you are ready or want to try the higher efficiency characteristics.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:17 am
From the article: “Farah says that during EV driving he is not aiming for the car to be “Cadillac library quiet,”
Something to ponder…If they eventually bring out the Cadillac Converj, will the Coverj be allowed to be Cadillac library quiet? I say, make ALL of your cars Cadillac Library Quiet and we will have to find it in our hearts to accept it.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:19 am
I think that is a great idea!! People picked at random and the only two must haves is a clean drivers license [easily checked by computer and the DMV] and no opinion and as little knowledge of the Volt as is possible. After the short [say 20 min. drive] give a recorded statement of what they liked and did not like.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:20 am
I agree. I would even say that two rpms are OK but not an infinite range. I want to focus on the electric motor not the ICE. The ice can just be background noise and if it is at a constnat rpm, I can ignore it easier.
I want to ignore the ICE and drive electrically. GMs plan seems to b bring the ICE to the forefront of our attention. This is not good IMHO.
My strategy when B.O. puts me in charge of GM and the VOLT.
I would shoot for one rpm (max efficiency mode) reached in a nice ramp after startup. This would cover the average “base load” driving and this could shut off (ramping down first of course) if the state of charge climbs too high.
If, on traveling up pikes peak carrying my overweight frame, the state of charge drops too low, there could be a “high” rpm mode for these extreme load conditions. The enging could drop back down to normal once the battery state is trending back to normal.
Its an electric car with a generator. Most will be able to live with a generator that runs at one rpm setting. With enough insulation, the engine would not be a noise issue for the driver and the driver can continue to focus on the fun of driving elecrically.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:24 am
That’s the right stuff, Herm,
The more slowly you are overcoming internal engine inertial, the cleaner and more efficient your use of energy, (gas and electricity). As well, the more slowly you are making changes, the more gently your physical demands are on most systems.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:29 am
DonC although I’m “with you” about wanting a unique experience, I think that our group is a pretty small subset of the GENERAL driving public. They already “have” us fanatics so I think they need to shoot for the greater population – at least for Version 1.
JMO,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:29 am
It’s easy – put a Prissy next to it! Even though the third edition looks better than the previous two, the Prissy is still an egg. Now if GM could have produced the original design – wow! I understand why this wasn’t do-able but I’d be telling a lie if I said I liked the production version better. Still, the Volt beats the Prissy and the Insult in looks and more important, in functionality.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:29 am
Farah was asked what it was like to step on the accelerator while the engine generator was running. “You get immediate response from the foot pedal,” he says. “Because the Volt is always driven electrically, you don’t even notice the difference there.” He also explained for the first time that at that point “the gasoline engine’s rpms then follow.”
———————————————————–
Once again Mr Farah reminds us that his goal for the Volt is for it to be indistingusihable from any other car in appearance or performance. I see where they are coming from —- they want to sell to the masses and they are afraid any noticeable difference will scare people away — but the goal itself makes me uncomfortable. I am like Herm, DonC and others above, wishing that the electric car could be seen as special in its own right, emphasizing its differences and advantages, letting its own special personality come out.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:31 am
Yet another feature of the original design is gone. This is what was meant by “Volt” never actually making it to market.
You’ll get a Volt, but it won’t be that standout vehicle anymore. Instead, it will be practical, affordable, and familiar.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:32 am
Remember the days when the only transistors in a car were in the radio?
I remember the days when there WAS no radio in the car (unless you were hauling it in the trunk) (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:35 am
Yes Koz, that’s one reason I have some hope that GM get it right – they do seem to be listening to the public and somewhat more from us here. Personally I don’t think the engine needs to change speed as the car is accelerated. The only thing that I think would be good is that at a stop light/sign, if the ICE is running, then it’s not racing. I really think this is what they are going for. There’s no need to run the gen hard while there is no demand. Once the demand comes on, the car gets up to 10 or 15 mph, the gen then picks up speed to supply the needed power. Any changes after that should be for demand and nothing more. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that there won’t be any major mistakes. My fear is that it will be GM’s last if there are. With all the testing that has been going on though, I’m fairly convinced they’ll get a lot of Gen 1 correct right out of the gate.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:35 am
The reason not to have the ICE follow the throttle is that such a plan, while comfortable and familiar, is inefficient. What one gets out of the ICE is ordinary mpg but not the higher mpg that is possible using the battery as a buffer. With the battery all the ICE has to match is average use. It can do that running at the ICE’s most efficient rpm. Generally that is fairly high rpm, but it depends on how the engine is set up.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:36 am
I see it like I see the Honda Civic — nice, but not distinctive.
It is today’s mainstream small car appearance.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:38 am
I think this is a good solution too. We all know that everyone drives differently. Even though the car is set for 78% of the public’s daily driving, GM should not include the operation of the car’s systems to fall into a single category of driver. Today’s electronic transmissions learn from the drivers habits and adjust, why can’t the Volt’s ICE and other systems do the same?
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Statik, is it my imagination or are you getting a little mellow lately? Maybe it’s just my Rainbows and Lollipops.
Another test drive would make almost all of us ecstatic though.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:43 am
I bet there will be a large portion of Volt owners that will never have the genset turn on for several months.
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Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in and run mostly in charge-sustaining mode with the ICE. It is just human nature. Many people who buy expensive products right at first are enamored with the concept and the image but not ready to put time into charging, even if it is not much. Certainly there will be enthusiasts, like us, who will charge every time, but the downside of mass market is that the entusiasts are a small minority.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:44 am
To me saying that it looks like a Civic is not negative, for the Civic is a successful and good looking car. The Civic is not an exotic or distinctive car, but it is a fine car that has a mainstream appearance.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:45 am
Personaly here is my 2 cents.
the ICE runs only when the battery is at 30%SOC, when you hit the gas, the battery is providing power, and the drain on it is greater, having the rice (r)amp up to maintain a 30% SOC after a small delay to see if it is a short draw makes sense to prolong battery life. under a sustained draw, ramping up the RPM to maintain SOC is desirable.
I do not think they want to mimic an ICE car, but having RPM ramp to an elevetaed sweet spot makes sense.
When I hit the gas, I do not want growl, I want speed and quiet power is fine with me. I remember fondly my 78Grand Prix SJ, 400 Cu.in. 4 barrel. Motor purred, and when the pedal hit the metal, the car just ’surged’ motor was like “you need more power..no problem” and delivered without a major decibel increase…
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:47 am
This is beginning to sound like 28 mpg in ICE mode. (smile)
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:49 am
How long does it take your laptop to start up? It’s all the same steps, plus a few more (likely overlapped) to get the temperatures right. So it’s going to be fine, unless you are late to work
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:49 am
Because most people aren’t geeks like we are. Otherwise there would be 500,000 not 50,000 people on the waiting list :^)
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:53 am
/What ever happened to the black wheels?
“Vehicle shown with options package” (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
NPNS
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:53 am
The first time a journalist steps out of the car and says ‘well that’s stupid”, it’ll be changed.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Just guessing, it is likely not an Atkinson cycle. GM is trying to get gen 1 out the door with minimal development beyond the (enormous) amount required for the electric drive. Why add another complication with Atkinson? It can wait for a later generation, maybe with another engine entirely.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Only if all 50K of us are picked :^)
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Except that if one is trying to sell to the “masses”, a lot of customers are soccer moms, way more than Volt enthusiasts
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:58 am
After reading the article, you will understand that GM will likely operate the ICE at full throttle most of the time (except maybe at idle).
——————————–
That may have been the original design idea, but when they tried it, the didn’t like it, it seems, and thus no ICE demos. So now the engine has been backed down to a more familiar pattern, one is led to believe.
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July 7th, 2009 at 7:59 am
That is, with fewer dealers prices are higher
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:02 am
Adjustable between left and right side exhaust tones, allowing a little rhythmic rumble, controlled by the ipod.
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:03 am
This car is not being built for you ,
That must be why I have not been getting the calls…..
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:07 am
I am sure that GM will get this car right given all the focus and attention it is getting. I am also sure that they have tried operating the ICE in all the differenct scenarios we are talking about here at GM-VOLT. If GM thinks the best solution is to have the ICE follow the accelerator pedal, then I would bet they think that is the way that makes the car the most enjoyable and easiest to live with on a day to day basis.
I am in the camp that would NOT like the ICE running at an artificially high RPM that would call attention to itself needlessly. Remember, that we are talking about a small four cylinder engine, not a butter smooth BMW V12. The more the engine is at a low RPM, the better. NVH will be an issue otherwise.
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Heeh, Don.
And I am sorry to burst that bubble a little bit. I am pleased with the way the program is unfolding, the lack of any significant issues is a testiment to the work being done by the engineers.
I am pleased with the quality of the work…and that has nothing to do with the timing of the project. I reconciled that the Volt is not showing up in late 2010 (in the form of anytype of actual production)…like 2 years ago, I’ve seen nothing to change my mind, or give me a hint that it might be accomplished. Don’t worry though, if I do…I certainly will mention it, lol.
What we have here is GM hitting a mini-internal schedule that they set up for themselves for a job that was in progress, which is a lot different than setting a complete project development/build schedule and hitting it.
This work to get ready for building the prototypes was already in motion, and someone decided to put a timer on it to motivate themselves to get this one item done in a timely fashion. Basically, this is something the engineers themselves could control and not the executive (re: the shot clock)
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/25/gms-response-to-the-gm-voltcom-first-chevy-volt-to-be-built-post-and-comments/
(Of interest: this is was also the thread I got to be labelled a ‘villain’ by GM…happy to be of service. Darn you Rob Petereson /shakes fists, hehe)
Sidenote: I wasn’t even going to mention this, but…
Technically, the goal coming out of this stage was, “….my goal is by Forth of July to be out driving several of them.” (Andrew Farah), and that although the “first one will take longer to produce…They will then be built at a rate of roughly 10 per week until a total fleet of over 80 is completed”
Well, there wasn’t ’several’ of them done and driving around on the 4th of July, we had one (if there was several, you can bet they would have been shown)…and I kinda doubt there is going to be 80 done by August 29th, although they still have time for that one…I really didn’t want to mention it, so as not to minimize their accomplishment
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/25/first-genuine-chevy-volt-integration-vehilce-to-be-completed-by-june-1-2009/
/I assume you have now been ‘disheartened’? You really shouldn’t be…quality is as big a issue as punctuality at this point.
A lot of times people get hung up on me for calling them out on overambitious schedules, pricing, options, specifications, etc. and interpret it that I am just here to be a pain the butt, or that I am always negative…but I am just reacting realistically, or what I interpret to be a realistic assessment of whatever the facts are that are being represented.
If they could have done what they originally represented (and what they continually represented over the first two years…until the last knife hit last september), that would have been one of those most fantastical feats in automotive history. I just didn’t believe it…so almost all my posts had a ‘pfft’ flavor to them.
However, if they can get to market first, with a quality project then that is still a job very well done in my books.
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:20 am
“GM product chief says no delay for plug-in SUV”
See Reuters.com Green Business section.
This may make Nasaman happy, of course if it is a pricey Caddy maybe not.
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:25 am
Personally, I don’t care much how the ICE will behave will driving the car at typical and usual circomstances it shall be designed for. I mostly have loud tunes on.
Personally speaking, the only relevant point for me is the average MPG I can rely on while driving AFTER battery depletion mode exclusively. If engineers can manage it well (50+ MPG?
), I shall give it a go, although it’s a 4 seater car (grrr…).
Can’t wait til Lyle get’s a test drive, and hope he could get some numbers
Cheers
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:27 am
Me too, surely anyone who shells out a $10K plus premium has a clue about it being a different car and expects a different feeling.
However, I can see some benefit to making it seem more normal for those that come after the first 100,000 or so of informed purchasers. That is those that really make this a mass market vehicle. Setting the vehicle up for being more normal, except you don’t have to fill it up more than a couple of times a year has some merit.
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:27 am
The development of the Volt is exciting to watch. It’s hard to believe that the world is just over a year away from the first 10,000 Volts being in the garages of the public.
Looking forward to owning a white Volt in late 2011.
=D~
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:28 am
I did not read the entire thread, so sorry if this is redundant. I did not see where Farah indicated ICE RPM varies with “throttle” position! Rather the car responds to the “throttle” position like a normal car, the feel is the same because you get an immediate response. The electric motor responds to the “throttle” and the car accelerates. No news there.
Then he said “the engine RPMs follow.” To which I ask, follow what and after what sort of time delay, microseconds or hours? We know, or at least I believe we know, that the ICE is governed by several variables. First of course is state of charge, with the SOC above 35% the ICE remains off, even if you put the “throttle” to the floor. Next, for those who believe the ICE operates at discrete RPM levels depending on the SOC (an urban average level, a highway average level, and a maximum output level) the RPMs “follow” the SOC. But this overall behavior is filtered by the “throttle” such that even with a low enough SOC to call for max output, if you stop the car (throttle not depressed and car comes to rest) the ICE RPM either comes to zero or the low -urban average- RPM.
Next, lets say we are driving along with the ICE operating at the low RPM urban average speed, and we turn on to a freeway and depress the accelerator to accelerate to and sustain 70 MPH. Even though the SOC might not call for the highway RPM level, might not the “throttle position/speed of vehicle” input have the ICE “feather up” to the mid RPM level? In other words, if the “demand” (kw being used) is more than the next higher level would produce, then the ICE RPM could closely follow the “throttle” position, and go to the next higher RPM level. Just a thought.
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Delighted that this problem is being attended to! I have been harping on this for many months that to entertain the human being with all of it’s various abilities to perceive the environment you must attach a connection to real time. ICE does this in spades. So now a better Fahrvergnugen experience for Das Volt. Thank you for having your head really in the game on this subtle but important element from the beginning and not some generation down the road. Says a great deal, actually. Well done!
Will read what all of you have written later as I have to make way to work in pouring wet stuff, I think it is called rain, here in hot and muggy Houston. I seem to recall a certain bridge that I helped build long ago. Gads!
Carcus1 go check my reply about the Lads.
Regards! OLDHIGGINS
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:46 am
one unique difference on the Volt is that the computer can instantly remove the generator load from the ice, or not.. and change the valve timing and so on independently of the what the wheels need.. and thus precisely controlling the emissions and fuel consumption.. once the ice is divorced from the wheels there is all kinds of tricks you can do.
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Nothing to do with the price of cheese (or the topic of the thread), but GM related, and Volt ‘parts bin’ related….so I’ll tuck this down at the bottom, so as not to disturb the content:
Because of the production cuts by GM and Ford, and the total production shutdown of Chrsyler, Lear couldn’t make it’s committments on credit…and filed for banktuptcy today. Of interest, this is the largest part supplier so far to go ‘under’.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/31772749
They had been talking about maybe going C11 for a long time because of, well…no work, however, they do have a ‘plan’ to come out, a pre-packaged deal agreed to by creditors…and the majority of DIP in place already no less. (from Citi and JP Morgan…hrm, I wonder why they agreed to do that? hrm…)
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Tagamet, you’re absolutely right. If you want to build a car for the masses, you need to remember that most people are allergic to change. The more usual the car sound and feel – especially if it sounds like a sports car – the better.
I think it’s a sign that GM is dead serious about electric cars this time. They truly intend to ramp up production. Good for us.
Having said that, it would be nice to have the option to customize.
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:55 am
I want to urge Farah’s engineering staff to sound proof the Volt’s cabin to the extent possible. The technology is highly advanced and both passive & active sound deadening materials/devices are inexpensive. For example, a tiny inexpensive microphone/noise-cancelling circuit board could be concealed in the car’s dome light housing. As with noise-cancelling headsets, this circuit could be tuned to virtually eliminate tire/road noise, wind buffeting noise and engine/generator noise.
GM’s long association with Bose engineers should be a leg up for them. Forget “Cadillac or library quiet” —make a sound-proof recording studio the goal!
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July 7th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Here’s my guess at how the ICE will operate (sorry I don’t have time to put into a flowchart):
Level 1
Below 30% SOC, engine starts, runs at idle speed ~ 600 rpm. Output ~ 4 kW. Engine always returns to this speed at vehicle zero speed.
Level 2
If SOC falls below 28%, engine speed increases to ~1500 rpm, 12 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 35% and engine is shut off, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 3
If SOC falls below 26%, engine speed increases to ~2000 rpm, 20 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 35% and engine is shut off, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 4
If SOC falls below 24%, engine speed increases to ~3000 rpm, 35 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 26% and engine goes to Level 3, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 5
If SOC falls below 22%, engine speed increases to ~4500 rpm, 53 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 24% and engine goes to Level 4. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
I expect best efficiency at Level 2 and Level 3, so these are the preferred points of operation, and the ICE will operate at Level 4 & 5 only when absolutely necessary.
I don’t profess to know these numbers exactly, but am just suggestling how the software may control the ICE, with engine speed always returning to idle at coastdown and at vehicle stop.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:02 am
The first time I sat in my daughter’s Prius, I waited (and waited) for it to “start up”, but it was “on” already. Looking back on it, it’s funny, but things like “familiar” sound effects related to the engine may be important once they get past the people on our “lunatic fringe” (g).
I’m TOTALLY sold on the idea of a car as quiet as electrons can make it and hope that the engine sounds will only be a memory.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:02 am
I like the sound of that. I don’t need to be “transitioned” to a new paradigm. Just warn me that the ICE will run at the sweet spot when I am stopped and I won’t think something is wrong.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Can’t stop thinking about this. Maybe have a kill switch for the GM passenger to push if nutso gets behind the wheel. also have the car react to a laptop computer held by the GM guy and then limit the test drive to 4-5 miles but the driver experiences BEV and EREV to get a full reaction.
Have 10 of these Volts and locate them in different types of driving conditions. Mountains, desert, big city stop and go, hot and humid south east, Alaska, rolling hills.
I would be most interested in what the Prius owners would say and those who think electric is a golf cart type vehicle.
And I should be one of those uninformed test drivers!!!
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Keep the negative votes coming!. They provide confirmation of what some have been saying all along.
Engineering is a balance of tradeoffs. Combine that with the realities of the automotive market, you’ve got a consumer driven vehicle rather than the ideal efficiency design.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am
“Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in and run mostly in charge-sustaining mode with the ICE”
Lithium cells are stored at half charge, they have the longest life that way. Perhaps the Volt should sense this pattern of use and move the depleted point up to 50%.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:15 am
If I wanted a sports car sound and throttle bliping I would save some money and buy a camaro or mustang. Mature adults will buy this car. Make it quiet and let flowmaster or magnaflow build exaust for the fart pipe boys………
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:19 am
From the front to end of the rear door, the car looks like my former car, the Saturrn Ion.
It probably has the same electric pwr. steering and electric AC motor too.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:19 am
“Or how about some program change that improves the all electric mode for the style of driving the owner most often does (city – congested, short blocks with stop lights, long blocks with few stop lights…etc).”
Better yet, use the GPS to customize the mode for where you actually are. Short blocks with stop lights, then through the light and onto the freeway. Likewise with approaching uphill, top of hill, downhill, etc.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Basically, fewer dealers means those dealers have more incentive to invest in their business. Cleaner show rooms. Better customer service, etc. That makes GM look better.
Also, it saves them money in administration and transportation costs.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:24 am
An excellent & educated guess, Bill! The only thing I want to add is that I think it was Andrew Farah that described the increase/decrease in engine rpms as being “feathered” —and I took “feathered” to mean very gradual or virtually unnoticeable both in sound and in feel. This reasserts the point I raised in #15 above, to “forget ‘Cadillac or library quiet’ & make a sound-proof recording studio the goal” ….so that when the ICE is operating at ANY rpm Volt occupants should be able to “hear a feather drop”!
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:29 am
I’m not a big fan of Toyota or Lexus styling – even though I’ve owned two Toyotas. The only head-turner for me is the Lexus SC two-seater convertible. The Volt is OK, I won’t be at all embarrassed to be driving one in a few years. If you look at the photo above and compare it to the IS photos I see similar lines.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:34 am
There will be software hacks in the future for just that.. the ice could just be unbolted, the generator would probably stay behind since its integrated into the transaxle. Dont try this with a Prius.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:35 am
My thoughts exactly (see #31)
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Funny that a lot of people are seeing similarities with other cars they’ve owned. I see my 2005 Acura TL on the side view. Sure the TL is much larger and the back is different, but still:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/2004_Acura_TL.jpg
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:47 am
The original design is still in process. You must have meant the “looks” component of the original concept. I’ll get my Volt. It will still be a plug-in with enough AER to drastically reduce my gasoline consumption. To me, the Volt was primarily about the performance, not the appearance. You can still get a standout “appearance” car if that is what you are into. The Camaro looks good. Down the road, a Voltec Camaro?
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:48 am
This is a great suggestion. Not only is a more quiet ride associated with a more expensive sedan, it’s a signature ride for an EV. If you want road you can always open a window! It would be a shame for the engineers to have eliminated the whine in the EV mode and then allow noise back in by not doing the basic things.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:50 am
You people made a lot of comments about the Engine RPMs. Doesn’t anyone care about the “Feel of a Sports Car?”
I can’t wait for my “practical” sedan to be that much fun to drive.
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July 7th, 2009 at 9:58 am
looking back at the first iron buildings and seeing imitations of fancy Victorian era wooden building details,
——————–
Such an elegant reference. It brings to mind the Crystal Palace, with its hall of steel and glass opening up a new world of building design.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Another great report, Lyle. You just keep on delivering one after the other. Thanks.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:02 am
The hints are very strong that it is an atkinson cycle:
1. it is an easy conversion, just change the camshafts.
2. 50kw is what an atkinsonized 1.4l 4 cyl gas ice would put out, based on the Toyota example.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:04 am
good idea.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:07 am
What is a “liquid sound deadener”?
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Yes, they are certainly putting a lot of thought and effort into it and from what they have said they are exploring all angles. I just hope they don’t make a design decision based based on an unwarranted consumer expectation. I agree they will slow down the generator at slow speeds and have said they will stop it at lights. I’m on board with this, especially with the losses associated with extra generator energy being directed through the battery. I’m just hoping that their control logic is wieghted more towards saving gas than minor ICE noise. Either way, there are several parameters the engineers are balancing and since it is control software we are talking about they can always easily tweak it to improve the product (one of the many benefits of EREV).
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:10 am
People demand perfection even in a $12k car.. this is the lesson Japan taught Detroit..
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Kind of. Both cars are boring to look at, so yeah, they’re similar.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:12 am
I really like the idea of a unique software profile for different drivers. I know the wife has a much heavier foot than do I. Maybe encode something on the ignition key to discern who is who rather than forcing drivers to choose their profile.
I think the more “normal” and “ordinary” the Volt seems to it’s driver, the more likely the technology will gain wide acceptance.
We are in the techno-geek age, but in many ways people are still fearful of new things.
“Ooooh. Fire. Bad.”
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Donkey mode?.. you mean a very low gear ratio, high torque mode, high engine rpm?..
I guess you could temporarily bypass the temperature sensors on the motor, when you ask Scotty for more power.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:17 am
It bears a resemblance to other successful, popular cars. You know, there’s only so much tweaking you can do if you want: 4 seats, trunk, front engine, under such-and-such length and weight, etc. The Volt IS a nice car design. It’s well thought through, not like a lot of models by American car companies that couldn’t have been bothered to take precious time away from their SUV development.
I see a resemblance to the Honda Civic (yeah, same parent company as Acura). This is not a problem. It does have it’s own design language, though. It’s not so similar that you’re not going to walk up to one thinking it’s an Acura and put the key in the door accidentally.
It *would* be a problem if it were so ‘out there’ it reminded you of a dud/lemon/unpopular car…
“Aztek.”
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:18 am
1. What horsepower do you think is required to maintain the volt at 70 mph?
2. What is the percentage of efficiency loss that you would account for from ICE to wheels? (i.e. generator efficiency loss, loss through batteries, electronics, traction motor)
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Tag, I agree with you on the engine sounds. Just thinking of speeding down a nice country road with no engine sound is exciting all by itself. There will be plenty of road and wind noise. I would be totally surprised if GM were to be able to cancel all that out. If so, so much the better for the driving experience.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:19 am
The engine does not follow the gas pedal in a Prius, same to a lesser degree in the Insight.. many people complain about it until they get used to it… then they complain about regular cars when they get back into them
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:20 am
(wow, proofreading FAIL)
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Just call it the accelerator pedal for future reference.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Agreed.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Now we use styrofoam covered with stucco. I think that’s called devolution.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Yes exactly, at the dawn of the auto age!
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Very exciting times we’re in!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:30 am
People DON’T demand perfection, nor will they ever receive it, especially in a mid-priced car. Very good, outstanding, excellent–call it what you will, but perfection is impossible. Trade-offs are inevitable.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Hi Higgins,
No doubt you’re black furred companions will have their noses hanging out of the portholes all the way back.
Always enjoy a good war story. (get to hear them at work occasionally, but from a different “asian conflict”)
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:31 am
I do not understand why the ICE and Genset can not be put into a sound proof box – I have no desire to hear the ICE even if it is going full tilt. I realize that it would take some extra work with intake and exhast mufflers, but they could make the ICE really quite even at high power.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Just show me the car! I think this stuff is silly, but I’m past caring what it sounds like. I have to confess that the photo gives me a bit of pause, but I’m also past caring what it looks like.
Although, I do have to sell it to “She Who Must”. Well, we can’t start that process unitil there is a real car to see. She even has this crazy idea that she has to test drive a car before she buys it. Can you imagine such a thing?
She was pretty OK with the prototype in Santa Monica, but this one looks subtly different. Anyway, it’s the only GM car I’m likely to buy, so:
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Tall Pete said:
…it would be nice to have the option to customize
BUT first
LJGTVWOTR!!!!!!!! (g)
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:33 am
It is a Chevy after all.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:36 am
While your somewhat convoluted interpretation of the process — no executive decisions and engineers keeping the process going — is somewhat plausible, you can get to the same place if you simply accept that GM has been saying — that the Volt is a “go” and GM is on schedule. That would be the more simple explanation, and the simpler explanation is usually the best.
As for overambitious schedules and so forth, you need to stop taking everything so literally. Not every stray statement should be treated as a “representation,” especially when those statements are made very early in the process. At the beginning of development optimism runs strong and everything seems possible. Then as the process develops time and cost constraints intrude and trade-offs need to be made.
For example, this is exactly what happened with the price of the Volt. What did Lutz say happened? That the engineers said they couldn’t get to the target price unless they had substantially more time to optimize the car. So the choice was sooner and more expensive or later and less expensive. This is the way it works. It’s not surprising and it certainly shouldn’t be construed as not fulfilling a promise.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Everclear!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:41 am
What year is your Saturn and model?
I am looking for an electric AC motor for my EV conversion?
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Thats for BMW, we are talking Chevy here.. Go Pedal sounds better.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:49 am
“Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in…”
_____________
Hopefully a large portion of those buyers will have kids, parents, a wife, girlfriend or even a pet that walks by the car sees, oh it’s not plugged in and plugs the thing in.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:52 am
would you hear another car honking at you?.. or the siren from an ambulance?..
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Somebody said at one time it took 22KW to maintain freeway speed.
22KW / 745.6 = 29.506HP
Where 745.6 is the watt equvalent of 1HP.
Can’t answer #2 though, sorry.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Then the journalist looks up at the gas station sign and sees the $6 per gallon price and says “nevermind”
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:56 am
By the time you have yourself settled and seatbelt fastened 20 seconds will have clicked by anyway.
I don’t see a problem.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:58 am
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From 30% to 22% SOC (which is also about where I’d guess as low as GM would safely go) is only 1.3 kwh. 1.3 kwh could be gone in less than a minute under heavy use (back to back hard accelerations, hill climbs, high speeds). Now the car would be totally running on ICE power (no battery reserve) and we’re back to a “Sybil” of a car with split/multiple personality.
GM can’t allow this from a safety perspective, which is still why I think they will design the car to “run away” from the 30% SOC and have the generator running harder to get up to the top of the battery SOC (or at least, something higher than 30%) as soon as it kicks into ER mode.
Also, I still think cycling the battery at the lower %SOC’s (i.e. 30% to 22%) is going to put significantly more wear on the battery than if it was cycling up towards the top (i.e. 80% to 72%). (but I’ll admit, battery chemistry could surprise me on this one)
Atkinson cycle is less torque. Again, less torque would be an especially bad thing if there’s not a lot of battery reserve to help the ICE. If they let the ICE maintain the battery at a higher SOC (thus more battery reserve) then maybe you could have an Atkinson, but the point is moot. GM has given no indication of an Atkinson being used.
/ 1. Battery life 2. Acceleration performance 3. Fuel Efficiency 4. Engine noise
This is how I would rank the problems GM is working on . . . even though they’ll only admit to number 4.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Actually Keith, That is exactly what we are talking about. I am suggesting that the automobile NOT be built for me or any other person who expects the feel of an old ICE car. I am suggesting that it be built as a technological advancement and development of the modern auto just as you describe.
I argue that having the RPMs change to make people feel that the accellerator pedal is connected to the ICE is the childish idea if it affects the cars efficiency in any way at all. They spent many weeks in a wind tunnel fretting over drag counts (.001). The question I have is whether the rambling RMP approach is most efficient. If not, then I argue that GM is being childish or treating the buyers as childish. I want a grown up car that maximizes efficiency.
I also argued in another of the posts that what a driver really wants is some type of connection to the driving experience through the actual engine and drive train. Then engine is electric. No matter how quiet it is you will feel some vibration and hear some hum as it goes and as you go faster and slower. When you go faster, it will hum at a higher pitch. This is your connection to the electric motor. For the first 40 miles, you will be in tune with this as you drive.
This is the driving experience that I want and I want it all the time.
Once the ICE kicks on, I want to continue with this feel for the car. I want to hit the pedal and feel the electric motor pull me along. If the ICE has to run, I would argue that it would be better for it to run at one RPM (background noise) that I could learn to tune out so I could continue to focus on my electric driving experience. If the ICE is rambling around at different RPMs, it will screw up the expericence of the electric drive IMO.
If GM is trying to tune the ICE to match the cars performance, I don’t think they will ever get it just right. If it is not just right, it will be awkward and screw up the driving experience that I noted above.
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Did you guys see this? Zenn is going public.
Buy some shares of Zenn for $3.50
http://www.emediaworld.com/press_release/release_detail.php?id=627283
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July 7th, 2009 at 10:59 am
IMO it’s the affects on the critical path that will change the scheduled dates. Even though GM’s explanations aren’t very detailed, they have said the critical path has not been affected by their schedule alterations.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:02 am
You ever owned a Honda?.. only complaint I have is those stupid timing belts.. they should use chains and put up with the noise.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Usually I agree with you Nasaman, but not this time.
There is a point where a car is so quiet as to disconnect the driver from driving. It could become dangerous to have the driver so ‘distant’ from the business of driving.
I AM curious as to why noise is such an issue. I suppose it has to do with the fact that a 4 cyl engine tends to be ‘buzzy’ and could be hard to keep really quiet.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Thick goo used to dampen sound.
Liquids are terrible sound transmitters, so therefore excellent sound deadeners.
I have no idea what the goo is made of though.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:06 am
// You’d think a lot (most?) of this would be solved with computer simulation. But battery (and generator) performance is going to vary a fair amount depending on temperature and load, so in this instance there just may not be any substitute for the real thing.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Arrr…..matey’s.
Me thinks we’re all in accord that we should hear nothing at all or an rpm feather up/don as we drive.
What say U!!
Where’s me Rum?
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Think of your most technophobe friend or family member.
THEY need to feel comfortable with the driving experience.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am
People demand perfection far more in $12k car than a cutting edge $200k car. The low priced car is seen only as a simple appliance, what could go wrong with an appliance right?
Where is the Volt sitting by those measures?
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am
It was my former car, I traded it for a new Impala. But you can get those electric AC motors from any GM Delta car, Ion, Cobolt, or HHR.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:12 am
/// Efficiency, temperature, power and other factors will all affect each other and change the parameters and outcomes in a dynamic environment. The complexities here could be high.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Level 6
If SOC falls below 20%, engine speed remains at ~4500 rpm, 53 kW. Vehicle speed and power demand is reduced to match power made by the genset.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:13 am
The car has an ICE. Maybe you would like a non range extended electric?
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:16 am
I don’t think they’re looking at the problem this way. Rather than having the ICE recharge the batteries I think the idea is to have the ICE supply the average power necessary to power the car and to charge and recharge the battery pack sparingly around the 30% SOC. If this is the case then the ICE would match the demands of the drive cycle rather than the SOC of the battery.
GM has said that at 65 mph on an uphill the genset needs to produce 30 kW and that it needs to produce 8 kW in city driving. If you add in an “in-between” drive cycle then you’d have your Levels 2, 3, and 4. They’ve already said the ICE will stop when the car stops which leaves your Level 1 in limbo.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:17 am
REPORT: Saturn Vue plug-in replacement SUV on track, GM considering electric city car
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/07/report-saturn-vue-plug-in-replacement-suv-on-track-gm-consider/
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Cool, Thanks!!!
I didn’t know any mfgrs used AC motor drive for their AC. Gonna go do some research now…..
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:22 am
If the occupants couldn’t actually hear the ICE then all the interface issues surrounding the driver needing to have the RPMs match the throttle disappear. That is such a simple and elegant solution I’m assuming they can’t get that result.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:23 am
k-dawg ~ Would expect the ZENN shares to bounce around $4 for a time. And go lower within a year on news of the debt involved in a ramp up. As competition stiffens, they will be fighting for a piece of the EV market.
I am sticking with cancer diagnosis kits, golf products, metal recycling, clean coal systems, anti aging products, and Mexican construction. Mexican construction is overlooked and doing well.
Callaway golf (ELY) is on sale for just $5. I believe earnings are due out in a week. Their three new products are doing well. Including a new range finder that is on back order. Bought 1000 shares yesterday at $4.82
Think the Volt will look good at the golf course?
=D~
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Great article Bill! Very informative.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:24 am
I pretty much agree. I sure don’t want the ICE to be racing as I slow down for stops. Nor do I want it racing at top speed where a “normal” ICE car would be traveling at 75 – 80 MPH but I am only going 55 or 60. I believe GM understands most of this. They will do what is the best solution. If not, they will suffer the consequences. They will be getting all kinds of actual driving experience feed-back this summer and fall. They will have plenty to work on. Next spring when the real street test cars hit the highways, it will be more like what you will see at the end of 2010. Maybe GM will do a Project Driveway where even some of us “regular” people can drive a Volt for a while. I volunteer for the program and am ready to do my duty.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Generator Losses – Copper,Hysteresis, Eddy Current and Mechanical losses
http://powerelectrical.blogspot.com/2007/03/generator-losses-copperhysteresis-eddy.html
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Sounds great except for a few things. I don’t think the GPS system has enough information in its data base to determine the distance between stop signs/lights and where you “intend” to drive. Plus, the programming effort to accomplish this would be tremendous. I just don’t think the tools are there yet to do what you suggest. Let’s just accomplish these things in stages as we learn more about the Volt and its capability and see improvements in the systems to support it.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Interesting article I read in CarandDriver today. It stated that they expected the Volt to go from a 149Hp good feeling drive to a 100hp weakling once the ICE kicked in. Overall the article was positive, but that comment struck me as a big negative if true. Full disclosure, they DID NOT drive the car with the ICE kicked in but only in battery mode. This was in this months edition just released that I received in the mail today.
Hawk
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:32 am
What you are saying is quite true, but don’t underestimate the value of being able to immediately satisfy a customer’s choice. A Toyota dealer might have ten Camry’s on the lot in a variety of colors and options. A small GM dealer might have one Malubu. These days customers expect to get a car they want when they want it, and low volume dealers just can’t satisfy that demand.
Also don’t underestimate the value of advertising. Local advertising has proven to be an effective way to drive traffic, and a larger dealer has more money to spend on local newspaper and cable advertising. Look in your paper and you’ll see the difference between the ink devoted to Toytoa advertising and GM advertising. That difference in ink will translate into a difference in the number of footsteps into dealer showrooms.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Maaan …. I’m looking forward to seeing some more video of the Volt driving around on the streets and on the track. I’d also like to get a professional cameraman in the back seat of the Volt with some good audio/video equipment so we can get an idea of what the driving experience will be like … with the A/C both on and off, the stereo on and off, etc. Maybe (by the end of the year?) the Volt design team will be 95% done with their refinements and Lyle can post a video.
Maybe by the first of next year, GM can have some production intent Volts at a few auto shows. Not TOO many auto shows though. I want GM to do the marketing roll out of the Volt just right. Build up some anticipation like the Volt is a blockbuster summer movie about to be released, etc. Gotta have some mystique and all that. We don’t want to OVER-hype the Volt though. An optimal amount of media coverage and hype is what you want. Apple does this with products like the iPhone that are “coming soon to a theater near you”.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:34 am
I Completely agree, still don’t understand this fixation with the engine “feeling” right. just let me drive the furthest using the least amount of fuel and i will be happy. If people are so worried about the ICE, just pump engine sounds through the stereo.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Include the effect of Lenz Law and the typical electrical conversion loss of ~5-8% for up/down/regulation of voltage and current as well as controll electronics for senors/monitors.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:38 am
You must have meant the “looks” component of the original concept.
___________________
Nope.
And with all the countless posts repeatedly pointing out those other aspects, I have to wonder what you meant…
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:39 am
“The other is that the keyless entry system is also supposed to initiate the warm-up, although I’m a bit hesitant on this one, as I don’t want the car getting ready to go somewhere every time I pass within 10 feet of it.”
——————————-
The keyless entry part kinda bothered me for awhile. But upon further consideration I hope GM will only “activate” the car as you are touching the door handle to open the door. I know some higher line cars (the Lexus, I think) uses that logic. If you walk up to the car it senses the “key” but does nothing until you actually touch the door handle with enough pressure to start the door opening process. The car then unlocks the the car automatically and turns off the alarm system. You Lexus owners should chime in here and tell me if I am off base. I am basing this on a friend that owns a Lexus and that is what she says happens. i haven’t actually done that myself.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:42 am
One more and I’m done.
The problem here is that a series hybrid design just may not “scale” well.
What works on a train, or a submarine, or a bus may not work on a subcompact car.
On a large vehicle, you can upscale the ICE, generator, batteries so that you always have plenty of excess reserve to insure consistent performance. In the Volt’s case you’re constantly battling weight — thus you don’t have the luxury of just adding engine/generator or battery capacity to fill your needs. Everytime you add capacity, you add weight (and cost) and you might find that you’re chasing your tail into an engineering “death spiral”.
Gm full well knows this dillemma. But now they’re stuck with trying to engineer their way out (thanks to Lutz and Lauckner) , and may keep bouncing up against the wall.
If they can’t find a way out between now and Dec 2010, then expect a “punt” and the Volt turns into a BEV.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:43 am
We can all probably count the number of times on a single finger where a 20 second delay before you could start the car moving would cause a hardship. I don’t see such a delay as being a problem. If GM starts the process as soon as the car “unlocks” the door to let you in, by the time you get seated and strapped into your seat-belt, most of the 20 seconds would be gone. No problem here, as far as I can see.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:43 am
They obviously did not take in consideration that when the Genset is on, it works in “Concert” with the battery to drive the car. Remember, the battery was designed to deliver 150HP just by itself. That’s 111848W. The Genset is designed to deliver 53KW.
Total Power: 164848W (221.08HP).
Of course you are computer regulated to only 150HP. Sucks but If I can get a hold of the program and the IDE used to make it, i’ll find the limit just as they (PICC) did with the Prius.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Just wait for the future. If you don’t want an ICE in your car there will be plenty of BEV’s offered shortly after the Volt hits the market.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Make all of your decisions before the EESTORE story becomes clear?
/Note to Lyle and staff, I aplologize for not cleaning up my earlier reply in time, My edit function was not working on my screen for some reason.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:53 am
1. back in the ’70s, econoboxes required 11hp to cruise at 55mph
2. that is hard to calculate, it all depends on the efficiency curve for both motors and inverters. Practical limits for motors is about 95%, but the problem is that you dont get that high an efficiency at all power levels. Lets assume both inverters are about 95% efficient also, and that is generous. Assume the Volt’s motors have been designed to have a peak efficiency at highway cruising speeds of 70mph. So, you just simply multiply all the efficiencies together (because all 4 devices are in series).. 0.95×0.95×0.95×0.95= 0.81
Note that we dont know what kind of generator NGM will use, there are different kinds available.
So total electrical path efficiency is at most 81%, the battery and charger does not come into this since this is when the battery is empty, past 40 miles range.
On the other hand, the Prius has a direct connection from the ice to the wheels at highway speeds (when the motors stop providing torque, but they keep spinning), around 95% efficient due to losses on the gears. The Prius does not really have a transmission in the traditional sense.
So some people think the Prius will get better highway mileage, but perhaps NGM will compensate by fine tuning the sweet spots in the genset, on the other hand there is some suspicion Toyota is already doing ICE fine tuning trickery.. then again some people think Toyota is more concerned about keeping emissions low when/if they fine tune the ICE.. so stay tuned and see how this soap ends.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:53 am
You are correct. I want the car to be as quiet as GM can make it. Most of us will be playing the radio or CD player anyway. But I still want the car to be quiet so I can enjoy what I want to listen to. That is not the outside wind noise, road noise or a racing ICE. My Honda Accord uses noise cancellation to keep me from hearing the Variable Cylinder Management when car shuts down active cylinders or brings them back on-line. I never notice it unless I see the “ECO” light come on or go off. Of course, I know when the “ECO” light will go off because I am pressing the accelerator down to gain more speed to pass or just to go faster. After a couple of seconds the car shuts of the extra cylinder or two and the light comes back on and my MPG increases. I like it. It is a lot like what GM has been doing for years and finally perfected in the past few years. I drove a GM pickup a couple of years ago that had VCM type system and really liked it.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:54 am
You are probably correct on both. Geeks and the number on the waiting list.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:57 am
You almost had that “glowing” comment we were speaking of yesterday. But I think you are correct. And time is coming close for a Lyle report on his driving experience with the new IVer. Let him behind the wheel GM.
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July 7th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Your free to interpret history however you like.
I will continue to evaluate statements as they are made and represented to us. I don’t really feel like dredging up dozens of overstatements or missed deadlines to prove my point.
You are the one that quotes GM as verbatim…until it is proven wrong, then you say, “well…its really loosey goosey” or ‘oops, I don’t really remember,’ or ‘well they made a excuse why…so it is ok now’
Like here, they partially hit a short term goal they just made up 4 months ago, and you extrapolate that to say everything is A-OK on the whole project…AND ask me to, “concede GM is roughly on schedule with the Volt and/or you don’t have to be a crazed fanboy to believe the car will show up in late 2010″
…talk about making a leap of faith. I stand by my statement, and my record. Something you don’t seemingly have to do, because of your rose colored glasses.
I’m sure when they don’t have a Volt in the showroom in november of 2010, you’ll be here saying whatever excuse they have made is perfectly acceptable and “not surprising and it certainly shouldn’t be construed as not fulfilling a promise”
I suggest to you that under you wide scope of lieniency for GM (and yourself) there is practically no circumstance when everything is not perfect fine and acceptable, no failure that can not be explained away.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
OMG, our internet connection is friggin slooooooowwww…….
We’re gonn have to kill all video streaming of the Jackson funeral.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
30 hp was my guess, as well.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Well, that blew any chance of getting a “glowing” comment sticker. Again, you are on target with your comments. Even if you are wrong, which I kinda doubt, you have some good justifications for your opinions. I find it difficult to dispute your findings.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
or they could buy an aftermarket inductive charger.. just park over a certain spot in your garage and its charging.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
It may be that Statik is like some of the rest of us. He is just getting worn down by all of this. I feel much more mellow on the subject than I did a year ago.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I don’t see soccer moms rushing to buy one at first anyway. They need a small van to carry kids and gear and they want it to sit up a little higher so they can get a good view of the road. Soccer moms will come to the Voltec system when GM puts it in something like the Orlando concept. That’s my view and I am sticking to it.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
From the article
Farah noted that because the engine isn’t directly connected to the foot, “it is one of the things we continue to tune.” He said “there is an expectation of what happens when you put your accelerator to the floor in the way the car sounds and feels. We’ve got the feel.”
This I don’t need. The feel I understand and appreciate.
But I would rather have my car quieter than a mouse.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Not a bad idea. That is why I keep saying GM needs a Project Driveway program to lease a hundred of so Volts to people around the country to drive on a day by day basis. Sure, a lot of us on this site should be considered. I know that GM intends letting “plant’ people at the GM proving grounds drive most of these IVers they intend to build this summer. These people will not be engineers, but managers, office workers and union shop workers. That is all well and good, but GM needs to farm a few of them out to some “real’ people and again, I volunteer to be one of the test drivers.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
At this point I sure don’t know what GM is thinking about ICE rpm, but one thing is for certain. It needs to have several rpm levels as you described. If it only had one very high rpm, I would not want to have the car. I could not imagine wanting a car where the IC engine ran at 4500 rpm or higher all the time when on (except at stops where GM has already stated it would be off). A single rpm speed would be a definite turn off for me unless it was at a very low, quiet rpm speed.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
“jdenn” (in a thread above) suggested playing some kind of audio cue through the stereo, and I think that’s actually a pretty good idea. It wouldn’t even have to be a literal ‘engine sound.’ In fact, it would be better for the sound to be something unique.
I recall a rental car with silent electronic turn signals. Some kind of sound-effect had been put in to (very badly) simulate the clicking of the old relay. It was like having the mouth-noise guy from Spaceballs sitting in the passenger seat making the sound, and this came off as pretty lame (kind of like those electronic cameras which make a simulated SLR picture-taking noise).
So maybe some kind of semi-scifi or idealized electric motor noise which could be turned off, if unwanted.
I agree with all who have said that alternative scenarios for EREV behavior out to be downloadable for the geeks among us:
(”by downloading this software, user agrees not to hold GM liable for perceived operational differences which may lead to unsafe driving. User is cautioned to become fully aware of the driving characteristics this patch will impart to the Volt before operating said vehicle on public roads”).
There. Now everybody is legally covered.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Plus along with what others have said above, GM does have expenses relating to each dealer. They have to supply the dealer with a lot of marketing materials and many other things per each dealer. That cost money and people and people cost money. So the fewer number of dealers, the fewer employees GM needs and the less it has to spend on supplies, etc to dealers. I don’t pretend to know all the cost to GM associated with a dealer, but I would expect it to be fairly high. So, the dealer has to provide high sales to justify the support cost. There are many, many marginal dealers.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090706112904.htm
A Hydrogen power update. It looks like they figured out the metal alloy for solid state storage that would/could require NO Hydrogen gas transport unlike diesel/gasoline. If they are truly a few years away, the Volt EREV design could be obsolete in ~10 years… right as GM can make a profit off of it if they continue to MSRP at a loss.
The side note later in the article is that this metal could be used in batteries and energy storage systems.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
another thing to consider.. both cars have a top speed around 100mph, Prius is 109, Volt is 100.. the Volts does it (or is speced to do it) with a 1.4l ice, the Prius with a 1.8l ice. So the Volt’s efficiency cant be too bad on the hwy. GM probably knows a lot about motors and generators.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Any Engineer will tell you that an ICE engine has but one sweet spot or small range of rpms, that produces the highest specific fuel economy of operation at a defined load.
For the first time, an ICE is being specifically designed and hopefully tuned to operate at that sweet spot for the vast majority of its running time. Except for ramp-up and ramp down while starting and stopping the ICE, of course. As a consequence, fantastic fuel economy will result.
It is as if all the “hyper-milling” done today and in the past in such exercises by drivers in the “Mobil Fuel Economy Runs”, were all now done by computer control, all the time.
To the degree that GM deviates from the optimum rpm for cosmetic “conventional response” effects is a varying reduction in fuel economy.
But then, whether you obtain 340 or 320 mpge may be largely an academic exercise, were it not necessary to accumulate CAFE credits for more inefficient LDVs, like trucks.
Since CO2 concerns are now nothing but religious dogma of the new Global Warming religion plus taxation cover fro politicians, and nothing more; the real genuine concern is displacing petroleum demand to a level insufficient to wage wars over. Every single VOLT used in place of a conventional auto displace all but 10% of the petroleum demand of the previous vehicle. That plunging demand will free us of dependence and makes the possible contributions of bio-fuels approach the level of irreducible Ground Transport demand, essentially eliminating the need for petroleum use in Ground Transport. Transport is the only remaining really growing market for petroleum; and that complete substitution, to electrons and bio-fuels, will change the energy markets completely.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
At the very least, a GPS mode could warn the on-board systems if the Volt was approaching Pike’s Peak!
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
You made a typo and so I corrected it for you….
“This is beginning to sound like 128 mpg in ICE mode. (smile)”
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
The more the engine runs the less efficient the Volt is (I think we can all agree on that). I think varying the RPM’s is the most efficient way to do this as any “extra” energy created is wasted because it is not put in to the battery and would cost more to put that in the battery then just plugging in when you get home anyway. If you are driving in town at 25 MPH and the engine is running at 60% and you only need say 30% why waste the gas? I for one was glad to read that the engine RPM will change with the speed you are driving.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Herm:
“I’m a geek, I want the full 20 second start up sequence.. and I want the computer telling me about it step-by-step in a sexy womans voice..”
Great! Or how about:
“Atomic batteries to power! Turbines to speed!” (as background sound winds upward in pitch)
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Well it really is the underlying question about the whole thing. Will GM, Chrysler, et al, get salable products to market before they run out of money once too often and the Feds close the spigot? Ditto for their suppliers?
And will we have any money to buy those products if and when they finally appear?
All the rest is merely nibbling around the edges.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Yeah, seems like Zenn has all their eggs in the Eestor basket, and they keep buying more. Someone told me today that a Texas company was looking to buy Zenn, the whole company. I know Eestor is based in Texas.
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Seasoned scientists at EEStore say they’ve created a battery made of glass- and aluminum-coated ceramics that could allow electric motors to completely replace the internal combustion engine. The inventors, erstwhile Xerox PARC and IBMmers, boast about the car’s efficiency, saying it’ll be so cheap it’ll be as if gas costs 45 cents per gallon, will drive 500 miles on nine bucks’ worth of electricity, and needs just five minutes to completely recharge. Plus, the company’s CEO says, “a four-passenger sedan will drive like a Ferrari.”
Huh? Speculating in penny stocks is one thing. Buying stock in glass batteries is flat out scary. I’ll stick with metal recycling.
=D~
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July 7th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
I agree. In general, larger stores have an advantage over smaller stores due to selection. So, consolidation will, hopefully, help with overall sales. (Assuming it doesn’t add too much to driving time to get there, but, hopefully, they have that part mostly worked out in terms of dealer selection.)
As far as advertising–I see Toyota advertising literally everywhere. But I assumed that was due to Toyota’s market share in New York (and their much deeper pockets), and that GM mainly targeted places it’s more successful. But you’re right. If this increases the amount dealers spend on advertising, it will definately help.
I was just adding to your points–not disputing them.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Leniency is one way to look at it. Another way is to recognize that you’re constructing straw men and then knocking them down. You first choose to interpret a statement in a certain way — even though it’s not obvious that your interpretation is correct — and then you claim that anything that deviates from your interpretation is a failure.
For example, last week you insulted Henderson for saying that sales were somewhat “better than expected” on grounds that the sales were down year over year so he was obviously blowing smoke. Yet it was equally or even more likely he was being completely truthful. To begin with, neither you nor I had any idea of what the expectations were because neither of us were privy to the internal projections, without which it’s impossible to say whether sales were better or worse than projections. However, given the bankruptcy filing, the lack of a financing promotion, and the lack of fleet sales, one could reasonably guess that the expectations weren’t very high. So with some evidence I just took what he said at face value and you, without any evidence, choose not to.
This is not so much a question of being lenient or harsh as it is different ways of dealing with people and the world. I assume someone is being truthful until proven wrong. You assume they’re being untruthful until proven right. (Interestingly enough this skepticism doesn’t extend to people not working for GM, which perhaps is the crux of the matter).
With respect to how to evaluate statements, you are however willing to apply a different standard to what you deem to be meaningless details. For example, people have from time to time criticized your inability to spell, suggesting that if you can’t spell correctly then your point(s) shouldn’t be taken seriously. You laugh this off, and I completely agree that you’re right to do so. Spelling is a meaningless deal, as Veblen made so clear, and it shouldn’t detract from the point being made. Yet when it comes to similar meaningless details — like how many IV cars have been produced by July 4th (does it really matter if it’s one a week early or three or five?) or whether a mule will be ready “by Easter” (does it matter that the mule was ready in April but Easter came at the earliest possible time in March) — you act as though these are huge issues. To me they have the same significance as your spelling. In both cases it’s better to look past the trees in order to see the forest.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Such is life my friend, such is life. You know, if you only have 1 or 2 “glowing comment” stickers…it makes them more special. (j/k)
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Not to rip on Toyota but this was shocking. Dan Petit.. what do you think about this
http://consumerist.com/5308464/video-toyota-employees-taped-stealing-from-watching-porn-in-customers-truck
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Tag: I’m really not all bad, heeh. If something is good news, or is progressing well in my opinion…I can say it, lol.
N Riley: I will say that I am feeling a little worn down though myself. Two and a half years is a long time to get to here and we have a long ways to go. Also, frequently justifying opinions that I feel are acccurate, but unpopular is getting to be pretty tedious, so unless something really gets under my skin, I find myself not commenting on it…or at least trying to keep it light. (…the last couple threads not withstanding, lol)
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Expect more “Hype Maintenence” from EEStore in the very near future. I’ts been a while since their last one so they need to come out with something….
lol.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
You don’t have to guess. GM has said the genset will have to produce 30 kW or 40 hp for he Volt to go 65 mph slightly uphill. I wouldn’t think you’d need more than 15-20 hp at the wheels to go a constant 65 mph.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Looks like the wait on any series hybrid data just got a little longer — Fisker just slid it’s production date back 6 to 9 mos on the Karma.
Fisker Says Customers to Get Cars Around May-June 2010.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/green-light/post/fisker-says-customers-to-get-cars-around-may-june-2010/
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Good one.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
I would like to test this myself. It sounds good. Looking forward to a trial.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I suspect anyone from GM reading this blog today would be really confused as to what people want the Volt to be. I know I am confused. Some of us are just the confused type and others are confused easily. I am not naming names for those confused or easily confused. LOL.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Another agreement here. Just give me a maximum efficiency mode. I will deal with retraining my brain as necessary. Go ahead and set em for “compatibility” mode off the dealer lot, but give me a menu setting for max efficiency.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I like the “donkey”-mode where it howls. You don’t have a sound track you could share with us, do you? I haven’t heard a donkey howl in years. Might be interesting to have a car that howled like a donkey. That was a good one Maynard. And you used the right words.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
GM has already stated that the engine would not run at a high speed when coming to a stop. Their intent is to reduce the engine speed as you decrease vehicle speed and turn it off at a stop. I assume that is still the plan. I am sure it is. It would not work with most people otherwise.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
It will sound a lot like a police siren and it will be accompanied with flashing red and blue lights. There is no transmission in this thing, neither standard nor automatic. And it has max torque at 0 rpm. If you blip the throttle, you will launch right through the intersection and promptly get rewarded for running a red light. Just insert an audio CD of a formula 1 race and reminisce to your hearts content. Or get an old Sons of the Pioneers album and listen to hoofbeats. ICE sounds will soon join them on the shelves of history.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
> “Because the Volt is always driven electrically, you don’t even notice the difference there.” He also explained for the first time that at that point “the gasoline engine’s rpms then follow.”
> Farah noted that because the engine isn’t directly connected to the foot, “it is one of the things we continue to tune.” He said “there is an expectation of what happens when you put your accelerator to the floor in the way the car sounds and feels. We’ve got the feel.”
WTF? If the whole thing is always driven electrically, I would expect the engine RPMs to always stay the same (more-or-less), and be tuned to run at the most efficient level. Hearing the engine “roar” just tells me that it’s being inefficient and wasting gas, completely counter to why I would buy this car.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
You ought to see the look on a squirrel’s face when you sneak up on him on an electric scooter. Gives new meaning to the term “electric shock”.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
DonC
What you’re providing me with doesn’t appear to be anything more than a guess. I’ve seen these numbers ran on two or three different spots on the web, and I think I was estimating at the low end with 30hp being required for the volt at 70 mph.
Here’s where somebody worked it out for the tesla roadster , and they came up with 34 hp.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/technical-discussion/2040-roadster-efficiency-range-5.html
/hp required increase is not linear with speed, do you have some calculations to reference?
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
My solution to the ICE and how the driver/passengers perceive it is for GM to use several rpm levels as needed even if it is only one relatively low rpm speed. Gm knows what they need to do, so let them do it.
GM could add a sound track of internal combustion engine sounds that would track the accelerator pedal. When the driver stomps the pedal, the engine sound track screams with a responding load throaty sound that implies power being applied heavily. As the pedal is reduced the sound diminishes down to a “normal” sound. The owner of the vehicle could select the sound track he would like to use from a sizable list of selections. All the way from a Model T to a 2009 Corvette ZR-1. That way the ICE could do what the engineers need it to do to keep the battery up to the SOC and the driver could receive the proper feed-back sounds.
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July 7th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
OMG ROFLMAO!!!
True enuf.
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July 7th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
The software guys for the Volt should almost *never* have to do a “cold boot”. They will, for instance, keep track of the battery charge history to optimize life and performance. They can keep track of a lot of other information as well so that the Start-Up sequence should be less than 5 seconds. Just enough time to go and checkup on critical items – not re-asses the state of the whole vehicle.
Debug code almost always has a lot of overhead that is not included in the production code.
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July 7th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
I think your suggestions are right on the mark. I don’t know about the exact battery state percentages you placed at each level, but somethin