In late June, GM completed the production of its first true to form Chevy Volt prototypes called integration vehicles. We were given a brief video description of what it was like to drive one by the car’s chief engineer Andrew Farah.
GM granted an interview with Farah to Automotive News who got some new nitty gritty details.
Farah was asked what it was like to step on the accelerator while the engine generator was running. “You get immediate response from the foot pedal,” he says. “Because the Volt is always driven electrically, you don’t even notice the difference there.” He also explained for the first time that at that point “the gasoline engine’s rpms then follow.”
Farah noted that because the engine isn’t directly connected to the foot, “it is one of the things we continue to tune.” He said “there is an expectation of what happens when you put your accelerator to the floor in the way the car sounds and feels. We’ve got the feel.”
“We’ve got the feel of a sports car,” he said. “The sound part and the way the engine plays into that perception is one of the areas we have to work on.”
Asked about vibration, noise, and harshness Farah said “we still have some work to do,” but that during his ride he was “very pleased with the first steps.”
“It was great,” he added.
Farah noted that the team is using “liquid applied sound deadener” and that in the front of the dash and glass there is “packaged-in sound suppression items,” that are also being tuned to perfection.
Farah says that during EV driving he is not aiming for the car to be “Cadillac library quiet,” because it might be “disconcerting” to drivers. He is focused on minimizing wind noise and conducted road noise.
He said transition from computer model to real car went very well although not absolutely perfect. He noted the team had a minor “interference with the instrument panel that we didn’t expect.” But that was corrected and “off we went.”
Asked if the car feels heavy because of the battery at its center, Farah said there are advantages and disadvantages to it. An advantage he explains is that the battery “lowers the center of gravity of the car” which is good from a handling perspective. However, he added the weight is not without detriments, but that his team is “taking the best of the advantages.”
In terms of what work lies ahead at this point Farah said “This is really just the beginning of all the final tuning. We are at the 50 percent point. Fundamentally, we’ve got everything directionally correct, but now we’ve got all the tuning yet to do.”
Source (Automotive News)
This entry was posted on Monday, July 6th, 2009 at 8:44 pm and is filed under Prototypes, Test drive. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
+3
Jul 6th, 2009 (8:52 pm)I can’t wait to see what it’s like when the ICE starts up.
We should also remember that software updates will be possible after the car is purchased so that the “feel” can improve over time. I’m guessing there will also be more options and even custom settings. Many things are possible with the electrification of the automobile.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (8:56 pm)Nice Wheels,
I wonder what the Volt will sound like when you “Blip” the throttle?
Who is in the drivers seat?
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Jul 6th, 2009 (8:56 pm)Hey did I win anything?.. I predicted that was how they were going to do it back a couple of weeks ago during the generator fiasco thread. It makes sense, you dont want to weird out the driver.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (8:58 pm)Thanks Lyle! That really is the kind of Volt story I enjoy reading about every time. The details that make the experience of owning and driving the first mainstream American made electric car and we have a view to how it is all being accomplished. When the politics are forgotten and the economics seem like a distantly interesting, experience we’ll remember this.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (9:01 pm)It sounds like they are making the engine do things it doesn’t need to do like follow the throttle just so people aren’t surprised. I sure hope not.
Maybe it’s just the way he is describing it.
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+8
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:05 pm)The more I see this picture the more I love the looks of this car!
Todd
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Jul 6th, 2009 (9:06 pm)It does not have to follow the foot pedal exactly, just go up when the driver steps on it, and falls back when he slows down.. just so the genset is not racing when you come to a stop sign.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (9:07 pm)Sound deadining should be simple. Lots of methods. One thing they should’ve relied on is wind noise….AHAHAHAHAHAH….
The more noise from outside, the less they’ll hear the ICE.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they throttle the ICE according to speed. Why keep the ICE at high rpm if at low speed. Doesn’t really make sense especially if we all know that the genset WILL NOT fully charge the batt pack, just “maintain” a low level of SOC.
jus MHO
Going for a beer now, C yall!
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+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:11 pm)Why not? Current drain is directly proportional to your accelleration rate, so why not throttle the ICE since it will deliver the energy required to accelerate AND deliver the required energy to maintain freeway speed. If the ICE ran at “several sweet spots” then in many instances it’s going to run in a higher rpm range than it needs to be.
OK now I’m really gonna go getta beer….
/maybe there should be a setting called “ICE tracks Driver…”
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-12
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:13 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:13 pm)That’s true, you are the man!
But somehow I’m a little disappointed in the decision. Someday that feature may seem like looking back at the first iron buildings and seeing imitations of fancy Victorian era wooden building details, so that people could get used to the technology without being weirded out.
I think the soul of the machine wants to be set free, as some advertiser might some day say!
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+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:19 pm)Ideally if in fact that the genset is designed to run at one most efficient speed, then I think that should be it. But the truth of the theory is that tunning at that speed all the time is a waste of fuel because it was designed NOT to store the genset energy, just maintain a low SOC. If the genset actually charged the batt pack to a higher SOC, say 80% usable, then this one speed genset would be perfect. But sadly that’s not the case.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (9:23 pm)Lyle is that you?
Anyway they have the feel of full throttle, and the sound is being tuned to perfection…
Perfection would be a Bizzarrini designed Lamborghini V12. Which always required tuning. How many people blip the throttle these days. Could I get a wave file for my cellphone?
What type of ring is that? It is Lyle blipping the throttle on a Volt!
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+6
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:25 pm)I was thinking more of ICE fires up, then a steady movement up toward the sweet spot. Then maintaining until it’s reached the CDP SOC plus a few percent, then slowly settling or cycling down to the lowest speed, then off again.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (9:26 pm)They should do what results in the most efficient throughput and insulate the driver from the ICE. There’s no engine sound in EV mode. Is that going to freak the driver out or lessen the driving experience? Vary the RPM as much as they want but don’t lose any mpg’s.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (9:34 pm)Totally agree — I thought the decision was disappointing as well. People who are brave enough to buy an electric car at this point in history are not likely to be “weirded out” by a different noise scenario — in fact, as a driver I’d be looking forward to it as something else to “show off” to my passengers. It’s always something I point out when driving the Prius, when I make the claim that the only ones who don’t like the quiet electric mode are the squirrels in the road.
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+2
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:38 pm)It’s not sad but smart they have chosen to not charge the battery to 80% with the genset. I don’t think hat is Arch’s objection. I think he believes, as I do, that they should reaonably maximize ICE efficiency while maintaining their “bring the battery home on empty” philosophy. It seems logical that varying the RPM slowly between several set optiized operating points would be more efficient. This is what GM said they would do around August of last year. Reading the referenced article, I’m concerned but not sure they have departed from this.
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+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:41 pm)The side shot of the black volt IV kinda reminds me of a Lexus IS09.
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+4
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:44 pm)People have to remember that none of us other than Lyle has even seen the car in person. Everything right now is just speculation. Does anyone really think that the current testers of the Volt are going to suggest something that is just weird? No, these are people to and they are going tell the engineers what they do and don’t like, what needs to be changed, and what they feel they can live with, and thus the consumer can live with. Saying that GM is making stupid choices is ignorance talking. Until I can see, touch and drive the car I can’t really say what GM is doing is wrong. I know I like the looks and concept. I would like to have control over how the ICE runs but I doubt that will be available.
What I really am waiting for is to see what aftermarket options will come to market. Do you think anyone will come up with a pull the ICE and drop in an extender battery pack to push the all electric mode to say 150 miles? How about 17″ special light weight low profile tires? Or how about some program change that improves the all electric mode for the style of driving the owner most often does (city – congested, short blocks with stop lights, long blocks with few stop lights…etc). An entire new industry may be starting up at the end of 2010.
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+5
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:45 pm)I think our drunken sailor friend has (I’m afraid to say it but…) the most prudent solution yet conceived. Post #5
“/maybe there should be a setting called “ICE tracks Driver…””
Offer the option of “Best Optimum” or what the Capt mentions “ICE tracks Driver…”, make it user selectable. “Best Optimum” can be whatever GM determines to be the most efficient programming.
This sounds like a really simple alteration of the sys programs.
Hat’s off to you Capt.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (9:49 pm)Not that I am into writing software code, however the the ICE may proportionally track the the throttle input depending on the state of discharge of the battery. In other words the more discharged the battery the faster the ICE for any given input. As discussed earlier the engine could be more efficient at a given rpm. I doubt at this point there would be a significant difference in mpg. When climbing Pikes Peak the car would eventually slow down as the battery reaches max customer depletion. I know that the point of the Volt is to use plug in electricity, however if I knew I was going to climb the mountain, could I charge the battery from the ICE before the attempt? I would think not, that could be a hack or an Easter Egg though.
I am sure GM will get it right, I just want to choose the color.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (10:04 pm)Does anyone know how long it takes to start the car – from a “cold start”? i read in an artical some time back it currently takes 20 seconds for everything to “boot up” before you can start driving, but a few seconds might be shaved off before the car goes on sale. Is this correct?
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-5
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:05 pm)Look, the ICU has to go in the future anyway. Why not let me know how to remove it from the get go.
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+2
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:06 pm)Why is there all this concern about making the car feel like it has traditional drivetrain? The whole concept of what noises should accompany acceleration is just based on our experiences with ICE technology. If EVs had been first we’d have different expectations. This is engineering being put to waste.
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+6
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:24 pm)Thanks for the article update Lyle. Nice to see the maturations unfold in front of us. Nothing is going to be perfect in this stage, but so far it seems like the issues are of a less critical nature. So it seems all good to me.
I’m not exactly sure how to interpret the engine response to the gas pedal, the Automotive News source article really leaves it open to some interpretation.
It could be that GM has tuned the engine to the driver’s expectation, but it seems like the article is saying that the response of the car itself is tuned to the driver’s expectation from a ICE vehicle (and not necessarily the engine), that the engine RPMs adjust in line with the demand of the driver post hence.
/I think a test drive is in order for you soon to give us the ’scoop’
(=
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Jul 6th, 2009 (10:30 pm)This is all contradictory as well. Farah says that they’re using liquid sound deadeners, but they don’t want it to be “Cadillac library quiet” in EV mode? I’m sorry? Are Cadillacs the quietest thing in the world, quieter than an EV? They’re making it quiet but they want it to be quiet? WHATT???
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Jul 6th, 2009 (10:44 pm)Why not release 500 of these into the wild and ahem integrate them. See what real people think and implement what they feed back to you. What if 90% of the 500 people do not give a damn about the noise/sound and would trade the buzz for a $5,000 cost savings you may be wasting on fine tuning something not need of the extra effort. Think spartan think simple. Time is not on your side.
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+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:48 pm)I think what they need to do now is get as many people as possible that have not even heard of or care about the Volt to drive these IVers right now to get real feedback. The problem I see is engineers chasing problems and ideals that they perceive and latch on to, all the while not realizing that they are in a bubble. In other words, they don’t realize that they are so close to the creation that they can not be impartial or 100% useful critics of this car. People with a blank opinion of the Volt program are needed now to help with issues like this ICE engine noise problem and the way the car behaves on a day to day basis. Wait too long and the queses and second queses are set in stone.
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+3
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:49 pm)I believe that GM will endeavor to keep the ICE operating at its most efficient point most of the time.
See this link for info on operating efficiency or BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) for ICE’s.
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Brake-Specific-Fuel-Consumption/A_110216/article.html
After reading the article, you will understand that GM will likely operate the ICE at full throttle most of the time (except maybe at idle).
Now look at the first curve, and let’s assume the Volt’s ICE is similar (except for power developed by Volt’s engine about 1/4 of values shown) for discussion purposes. To provide power, the ICE might have 4 engine setpoints, 1500 rpm, 2000 rpm, 3000 rpm, and 4500 rpm.
For a light acceleration, the ICE would ramp up to 1500 rpm to provide power with reasonable efficiency. For moderate power draw like highway cruising, it might go to 2000 rpm with best efficiency. For passing on the highway, it could go to 3000 rpm and again have good efficiency. For rapid accelerations or climbing Pike’s Peak, the engine could ramp up to 4500 rpm to supply the 53 kW of power, with not so good efficiency.
So the software protocol could be to ramp up to the required power level with user demand (stomping the “gas” pedal), and ramp down with less demand. It also could determine average power draw versus actual power generation, and ramp down to 1500 rpm at highway speeds, for instance, to keep the battery at or near 30% SOC.
So GM will not only need to provide just average power, but will try to supply it when it feels “natural” for the driver. I’m sure this just complicates the software.
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Jul 6th, 2009 (11:36 pm)Since it’s just software, maybe they’ll give drivers the option. I’d like to see GM do something completely different, and allow drivers to have the option to seriously customize the car behavior.
Obviously, you want to put limits on what can be adjusted, and how far (for instance, setting the engine to always run at maximum RPM seems a bit far fetched), but it would be nice to be able to create a complete profile for the primary driver– since they’re talking keyless entry, I assume there’s already a unique ID assigned to the “key”.
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+2
Jul 6th, 2009 (11:39 pm)That depends– In an ideal universe, they use a dedicated HCCI or some such engine that runs incredibly efficient at one RPM. Since they’re using a production engine from another car that’s already been designed to run at many different RPM ranges efficiently, why not take advantage of the engine?
First generation Volt won’t be perfect. Second generation won’t be either. But the third? That generation will stand. Unless it catches fire, falls over, THEN sinks into the swamp.
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+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (11:43 pm)If I recall, there are two issues that can mitigate the start up. First, as I understand, the 20 seconds is essentially determining the condition of the batteries, and initiating heating or cooling as needed. Probably a lot of self-diagnostics at the same time.
BUT…
You’re supposed to be able to schedule the warm up time– so you can tell the car “I usually leave at 7:45 am”, and few minutes before 7:45, the car “wakes up”, goes through it’s POST sequence, and is ready to ride (including cabin temperature) by 7:45.
The other is that the keyless entry system is also supposed to initiate the warm-up, although I’m a bit hesitant on this one, as I don’t want the car getting ready to go somewhere every time I pass within 10 feet of it.
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+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (11:44 pm)The first generation of any technology resembles that which we are familiar with. The early cars looked like a horse and buggy (without the horse). Early planes looked like kits and gliders.
Also see Jeremy Clarkson’s complaint about the CVT in the Insight, where he bemoaned that it felt like a clutch slipping horribly.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:24 am)When my sister worked for GM, she complained that they’d work for months on soundproofing the passenger compartment, then some edict from some marketing executive would come down about how all dashboards needed to have a [insert trendy whatever], requiring them to tear out all their work to accomodate it. Then they’d run out of time or budget, and the car would ship with a rattley, poor-fitting dash.
She quit and changed careers *far* away from cars. She’s much happier now.
P.S. Why too many dealers are bad for GM? Aren’t they independently owned?
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:26 am)Yes indeed. Time is money and all this fine tuning to just make sure ignoramuses and soccer moms aren’t confused by the Volt is a waste.
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:31 am)So… if the driver wants “engine response” when the throttle is opened, will the driver be confused and let down for the first 40 miles during battery-only operation where the engine doesn’e een come on at all?
Or maybe the engine should *always* race when the driver floors itm even during the first xx miles of battery-only?
Down this path lies madness.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:40 am)I’m disappointed as well. As I’ve mentioned before, let the E-REV be an E-REV and don’t try to make it a standard ICE vehicle. GM seems to think we want to drive a standard car, but if we did we wouldn’t be willing to pay a premium to drive something different.
People are more adaptable than GM thinks they are. Or maybe they just don’t get exactly how weird the coasties are.
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+4
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:46 am)“P.S. Why too many dealers are bad for GM? Aren’t they independently owned?”
Fewer dealers means that each dealer is more profitable and has more stock on hand. The first means you get more advertising; the second means a customer has more choices.
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+5
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:57 am)OMG. It’s heartening to see a few rays of cautious optimism shine through that canopy of caustic cynicism. Are you now willing to concede GM is roughly on schedule with the Volt and/or you don’t have to be a crazed fanboy to believe the car will show up in late 2010?
Agree that the next round of test drives with the ICE on should be most interesting. Hopefully Lyle will get a good spot on that list.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:12 am)I hope GM has someone with a good sense of business balance running the Volt program. Optimizing a Chevy to perfection is not good business (a Bugatti, ok). It would be easy to give in to the engineers and spend too much time and money trying to optimize the parts too much, just as it would be easy to give in to the accountants who want to minimize the cost too much. This car is about many things, but most importantly by far, IMO, is the no-gas driving part. Secondly, it’s about timing–the sooner GM offers the car for sale, the better. If GM falls behind the coming electric car tsunami, it’s eventual liquidation bankruptcy for them.
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-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:15 am)Thanks! (Sorry I hit the -1 button, I meant to hit the +1. Second time I’ve done that…)
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-3
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:20 am)Previous photos looked good – the one pictured here kinda looks like a Prius that somebody stepped on.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (1:21 am)The driver in the photo is Andrew Farah.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (1:57 am)Hi. What’s this about not making the Volt ‘Cadillac library’ quiet, because it’s ‘disconcerting’? I’d like it disconcertingly quiet! … for more of a luxury feel.
This is a long shot, but maybe GM can make the noise level *variable*, so the base model can have a little noise, but the nicer model has a bit of modular sound deadening added (and is even quieter), so those of us who want silence can have it, and those who don’t can hear sound if they want. A silent Volt for me please GM!
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+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:16 am)After reading the postings here I sure am glad that Automotive Engineers are the ones “responsible” for the execution of the vehicles design and not the Volt .com bloggers .
It sure would be one messed up car if GM were to try to put this advanced technology together the way some boy hot rodders want it .
I wonder , do you think that GM is going to listen to your childish ideas .
It makes common sense that the engine will go faster as you drive faster and slows down when you slow down .
It doesn’t mean that the engine will scream when you hit the floor , it means that the engine will go faster as the vehicle goes faster , go slower when the car goes slower and stop completely when the car is stopped , come on boys grow up and be real . This car is not being built for you , it is being built for the global technological advancement and development of the modern automobile .
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+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:27 am)How about a switch for engine behaviour? Just like those switches for your automatic gearbox.
I’m thinking of an economy mode, where the engine alway runs on ideal speeds and one “donkey”-mode, where the engine howls when you lower your foot…
Of course the goal will be, to never use the gas engine
(Sorry if I don’t use the right words – I’m German, but I think you get the point…)
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-3
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:40 am)Agreed, Justin DT. (Apparently, despite the government’s best efforts, there are still idiots like Farah at GM).
WHY NOT CADILLAC QUIET? It’s an electric ear, for christ’s sake. Let me be quite clear on this…
I – don’t – want – to – hear – the – ICE – at – all. Got that, Farah?
The Volt is NOT a sports car. The “sports car” Volt died early on, in the wind tunnel tests. What we have now is an econobox, “save the world”, supergreen Volt. I will repeat for the mentally challenged (and Farah) – the Volt is NOT a sports car.
So stop trying to make the Volt into something it is not. What is Farah thinking – is he trying to justify the Volt’s price tag by making the Volt “sexy”? The Volt is supposed to be quiet. The ICE should be as quiet as current technology can make it. Having the ICE roar to life when you least expect it – THAT’S disconcerting ! Whatever happened to the idea of slowing increasing the ICE’s RPM’s slowly, so the engine would not “roar” to life ? How about active noise cancellation ?
It seems to me that GM is still deciding where they want to go with the Volt. Will it be a bold new moonshot, taking cars into the realm of silent propulsion (new GM), or will it be more of the same old “roar of the engines” we have been stuck with for the past century (old GM) ? Time will tell.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (3:45 am)Why? Any engineering or “other commo sense” reasons you know of why you believe the engine rpms must be tied to speed (other than “Same as it ever was…same as it ever was…)?
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Jul 7th, 2009 (3:58 am)Here! Here!
Or at least they could tell us if it using an Atkinson cycle. Everyone, accept Carcus1 of course (low blow, I know), already thinks this anyway so they really wouldn’t be giving anything away,
Non-accessory power draw at 60mph, level ground, no wind?
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Jul 7th, 2009 (4:32 am)I sometimes drive the company GEM EV. Besides minor tire to road noise all that is heard is the electric motor rev sound. It is relaxing to be free of having to listen to a gasoline engine at all. BTW: I haven’t pumped any gasoline into the GEM yet. Has 3600 miles on it. Been to a gas station just once. This was to help a guy who had run out of gasoline.
=D~
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Jul 7th, 2009 (5:43 am)For myself I’d rather the engine just go at the sweet spots so that I get the best MPG possible out of the car. As for my mother in law, I could see her crash the car into a tree thinking the accelerator got stuck. Even for her though a few weeks (maybe months) of practice and I’m sure that feeling of STOP NOW AT ALL COSTS OR I’LL DIE would subside.
How about giving us the option then
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Jul 7th, 2009 (6:02 am)“Since it’s just software, maybe they’ll give drivers the option. I’d like to see GM do something completely different, and allow drivers to have the option to seriously customize the car behavior.”
There may be some danger of suits by startled drivers but you have a good idea there.
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:06 am)“For myself I’d rather the engine just go at the sweet spots so that I get the best MPG possible out of the car”
It could still use the sweet spots, it would just drift slowly to them. The key for NGM is for the thottle to go down when you lift your foot from the go pedal (not called the gas pedal anymore).
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Jul 7th, 2009 (6:12 am)“Why not? Current drain is directly proportional to your accelleration rate, so why not throttle the ICE since it will deliver the energy required to accelerate AND deliver the required energy to maintain freeway speed”
For economy, the computer knows the best throttle and generator power output settings, the sweet spots.. in addition it “listens” to your foot on the go-pedal to give you the illusion you are in control. You want to be in control right?… you did spend a lot of money on the car
The car wants to make you happy, but it really knows best how to do the job.
Remember the days when the only transistors in a car were in the radio?
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+4
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:25 am)“In an ideal universe, they use a dedicated HCCI or some such engine that runs incredibly efficient at one RPM. Since they’re using a production engine from another car that’s already been designed to run at many different RPM ranges efficiently, why not take advantage of the engine?”
It really does not make sense to worry too much about the genset, it will seldom be used by most people. I bet there will be a large portion of Volt owners that will never have the genset turn on for several months.
GM did the best thing by using that genset. Apparently smart people are in charge.
Perhaps for marketing reasons you want a genset that will give 90 mpg or more, and thats fine.. but it will cost you.
In any case GM should have several different gensets in the parts bin for future Voltec cars, and maybe just offer them as options.. including the option of no genset at all.
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-2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:29 am)Man…I just wish I could see things the way you do…
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+5
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:32 am)I’m a geek, I want the full 20 second start up sequence.. and I want the computer telling me about it step-by-step in a sexy womans voice..
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:32 am)Don, LOL ! I agree ! I guess this is what the dark side of the moon looks like ! I’ll bet someone at GM has the post above on their cubicle wall !
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Jul 7th, 2009 (6:39 am)A Lexus?….really?…wow…about the only thing that the Volt resembles a Lexus IS09 is the price point…it looks like a Civic to me.
sorry, I dont know why I’m so negative about the looks of this car — that isnt what its about.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (6:40 am)I’ve seen it in person (NY Auto Show)…didnt get to touch it though…
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-4
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:45 am)Agreed….except for the “previous photos looked good” part….
(man, I need more coffee – I’m in a mood this AM)
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:56 am)I am kind of on the fence about this issue.
I can see the point of having just a few sweet spots in engine RPM’s for the most efficiency. That is fine for me.
But I can also see the idea of having the engine also respond to driving speed, especially when stopped. My wife would be scared to death if she was at a stop sign, but she could hear the engine at some really high RPM. She would be afraid to lift her foot off of the brake pedal.
Most of the time, we would be running under battery power, so this is a moot point. But I think that “getting it right” for the ICE is time well spent. And I am sure that GM has had other GM employees not in the Volt project try this out and get their opinions.
I guess the “Caddy library quiet” version will be saved for the Converj……
NPNS
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Jul 7th, 2009 (6:57 am)You are of course correct about any diffinitive conclusions about design and engineering specifics without knowing all of the facts but speak now or forever hold your peace. Soon from now Gen1 of the Volt will be locked in and not much will change unitl Gen2. If you’ve been following this blog, you know GM does as well. We may never know if there were any material changes to design based on what was said here but no person or company is above mistakes. Just look at the Aztek, great concept but terrible execution. Besides a lot of decisions are 50/50 choices and GM may be using input they see here to help them decide. They have asked here for input on some specifics in the past.
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-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:09 am)Mr Farah, I want my Volt to be as efficient as possible, so the ICE should reflect this. If I wanted the engine to follow the accelerator I would save money and buy a Prius.
I expect form to follow function.
/What ever happened to the black wheels?
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:11 am)Are you saying that the Volt should not have Dual Exhaust with large chrome tips and a deep throaty growl for an exhaust tone??
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:15 am)Wouldn’t it be cool if you could download characteristics-options on a jump drive to transfer over to your Volt? As you got used to various “past operational characteristics” designed to “segway” your experience “out of ICE”, more efficient operational characteristics might be down loadable, or even OEM stock- resident in a characteristics-library displayed on the dash screen that you could just switch over to when you are ready or want to try the higher efficiency characteristics.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:17 am)From the article: “Farah says that during EV driving he is not aiming for the car to be “Cadillac library quiet,”
Something to ponder…If they eventually bring out the Cadillac Converj, will the Coverj be allowed to be Cadillac library quiet? I say, make ALL of your cars Cadillac Library Quiet and we will have to find it in our hearts to accept it.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:19 am)I think that is a great idea!! People picked at random and the only two must haves is a clean drivers license [easily checked by computer and the DMV] and no opinion and as little knowledge of the Volt as is possible. After the short [say 20 min. drive] give a recorded statement of what they liked and did not like.
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:20 am)I agree. I would even say that two rpms are OK but not an infinite range. I want to focus on the electric motor not the ICE. The ice can just be background noise and if it is at a constnat rpm, I can ignore it easier.
I want to ignore the ICE and drive electrically. GMs plan seems to b bring the ICE to the forefront of our attention. This is not good IMHO.
My strategy when B.O. puts me in charge of GM and the VOLT.
I would shoot for one rpm (max efficiency mode) reached in a nice ramp after startup. This would cover the average “base load” driving and this could shut off (ramping down first of course) if the state of charge climbs too high.
If, on traveling up pikes peak carrying my overweight frame, the state of charge drops too low, there could be a “high” rpm mode for these extreme load conditions. The enging could drop back down to normal once the battery state is trending back to normal.
Its an electric car with a generator. Most will be able to live with a generator that runs at one rpm setting. With enough insulation, the engine would not be a noise issue for the driver and the driver can continue to focus on the fun of driving elecrically.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:24 am)That’s the right stuff, Herm,
The more slowly you are overcoming internal engine inertial, the cleaner and more efficient your use of energy, (gas and electricity). As well, the more slowly you are making changes, the more gently your physical demands are on most systems.
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+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:29 am)DonC although I’m “with you” about wanting a unique experience, I think that our group is a pretty small subset of the GENERAL driving public. They already “have” us fanatics so I think they need to shoot for the greater population – at least for Version 1.
JMO,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:29 am)It’s easy – put a Prissy next to it! Even though the third edition looks better than the previous two, the Prissy is still an egg. Now if GM could have produced the original design – wow! I understand why this wasn’t do-able but I’d be telling a lie if I said I liked the production version better. Still, the Volt beats the Prissy and the Insult in looks and more important, in functionality.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:29 am)Farah was asked what it was like to step on the accelerator while the engine generator was running. “You get immediate response from the foot pedal,” he says. “Because the Volt is always driven electrically, you don’t even notice the difference there.” He also explained for the first time that at that point “the gasoline engine’s rpms then follow.”
———————————————————–
Once again Mr Farah reminds us that his goal for the Volt is for it to be indistingusihable from any other car in appearance or performance. I see where they are coming from —- they want to sell to the masses and they are afraid any noticeable difference will scare people away — but the goal itself makes me uncomfortable. I am like Herm, DonC and others above, wishing that the electric car could be seen as special in its own right, emphasizing its differences and advantages, letting its own special personality come out.
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-7
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:31 am)Yet another feature of the original design is gone. This is what was meant by “Volt” never actually making it to market.
You’ll get a Volt, but it won’t be that standout vehicle anymore. Instead, it will be practical, affordable, and familiar.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:32 am)Remember the days when the only transistors in a car were in the radio?
I remember the days when there WAS no radio in the car (unless you were hauling it in the trunk) (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:35 am)Yes Koz, that’s one reason I have some hope that GM get it right – they do seem to be listening to the public and somewhat more from us here. Personally I don’t think the engine needs to change speed as the car is accelerated. The only thing that I think would be good is that at a stop light/sign, if the ICE is running, then it’s not racing. I really think this is what they are going for. There’s no need to run the gen hard while there is no demand. Once the demand comes on, the car gets up to 10 or 15 mph, the gen then picks up speed to supply the needed power. Any changes after that should be for demand and nothing more. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that there won’t be any major mistakes. My fear is that it will be GM’s last if there are. With all the testing that has been going on though, I’m fairly convinced they’ll get a lot of Gen 1 correct right out of the gate.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:35 am)The reason not to have the ICE follow the throttle is that such a plan, while comfortable and familiar, is inefficient. What one gets out of the ICE is ordinary mpg but not the higher mpg that is possible using the battery as a buffer. With the battery all the ICE has to match is average use. It can do that running at the ICE’s most efficient rpm. Generally that is fairly high rpm, but it depends on how the engine is set up.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:36 am)I see it like I see the Honda Civic — nice, but not distinctive.
It is today’s mainstream small car appearance.
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:38 am)I think this is a good solution too. We all know that everyone drives differently. Even though the car is set for 78% of the public’s daily driving, GM should not include the operation of the car’s systems to fall into a single category of driver. Today’s electronic transmissions learn from the drivers habits and adjust, why can’t the Volt’s ICE and other systems do the same?
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:40 am)Statik, is it my imagination or are you getting a little mellow lately? Maybe it’s just my Rainbows and Lollipops.
Another test drive would make almost all of us ecstatic though.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:43 am)I bet there will be a large portion of Volt owners that will never have the genset turn on for several months.
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Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in and run mostly in charge-sustaining mode with the ICE. It is just human nature. Many people who buy expensive products right at first are enamored with the concept and the image but not ready to put time into charging, even if it is not much. Certainly there will be enthusiasts, like us, who will charge every time, but the downside of mass market is that the entusiasts are a small minority.
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:44 am)To me saying that it looks like a Civic is not negative, for the Civic is a successful and good looking car. The Civic is not an exotic or distinctive car, but it is a fine car that has a mainstream appearance.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:45 am)Personaly here is my 2 cents.
the ICE runs only when the battery is at 30%SOC, when you hit the gas, the battery is providing power, and the drain on it is greater, having the rice (r)amp up to maintain a 30% SOC after a small delay to see if it is a short draw makes sense to prolong battery life. under a sustained draw, ramping up the RPM to maintain SOC is desirable.
I do not think they want to mimic an ICE car, but having RPM ramp to an elevetaed sweet spot makes sense.
When I hit the gas, I do not want growl, I want speed and quiet power is fine with me. I remember fondly my 78Grand Prix SJ, 400 Cu.in. 4 barrel. Motor purred, and when the pedal hit the metal, the car just ’surged’ motor was like “you need more power..no problem” and delivered without a major decibel increase…
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+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:47 am)This is beginning to sound like 28 mpg in ICE mode. (smile)
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:49 am)How long does it take your laptop to start up? It’s all the same steps, plus a few more (likely overlapped) to get the temperatures right. So it’s going to be fine, unless you are late to work
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:49 am)Because most people aren’t geeks like we are. Otherwise there would be 500,000 not 50,000 people on the waiting list :^)
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:53 am)/What ever happened to the black wheels?
“Vehicle shown with options package” (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
NPNS
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-4
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:53 am)The first time a journalist steps out of the car and says ‘well that’s stupid”, it’ll be changed.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:54 am)Just guessing, it is likely not an Atkinson cycle. GM is trying to get gen 1 out the door with minimal development beyond the (enormous) amount required for the electric drive. Why add another complication with Atkinson? It can wait for a later generation, maybe with another engine entirely.
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:54 am)Only if all 50K of us are picked :^)
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:56 am)Except that if one is trying to sell to the “masses”, a lot of customers are soccer moms, way more than Volt enthusiasts
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:58 am)After reading the article, you will understand that GM will likely operate the ICE at full throttle most of the time (except maybe at idle).
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That may have been the original design idea, but when they tried it, the didn’t like it, it seems, and thus no ICE demos. So now the engine has been backed down to a more familiar pattern, one is led to believe.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (7:59 am)That is, with fewer dealers prices are higher
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:02 am)Adjustable between left and right side exhaust tones, allowing a little rhythmic rumble, controlled by the ipod.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (8:03 am)This car is not being built for you ,
That must be why I have not been getting the calls…..
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Jul 7th, 2009 (8:07 am)I am sure that GM will get this car right given all the focus and attention it is getting. I am also sure that they have tried operating the ICE in all the differenct scenarios we are talking about here at GM-VOLT. If GM thinks the best solution is to have the ICE follow the accelerator pedal, then I would bet they think that is the way that makes the car the most enjoyable and easiest to live with on a day to day basis.
I am in the camp that would NOT like the ICE running at an artificially high RPM that would call attention to itself needlessly. Remember, that we are talking about a small four cylinder engine, not a butter smooth BMW V12. The more the engine is at a low RPM, the better. NVH will be an issue otherwise.
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+6
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:20 am)Heeh, Don.
And I am sorry to burst that bubble a little bit. I am pleased with the way the program is unfolding, the lack of any significant issues is a testiment to the work being done by the engineers.
I am pleased with the quality of the work…and that has nothing to do with the timing of the project. I reconciled that the Volt is not showing up in late 2010 (in the form of anytype of actual production)…like 2 years ago, I’ve seen nothing to change my mind, or give me a hint that it might be accomplished. Don’t worry though, if I do…I certainly will mention it, lol.
What we have here is GM hitting a mini-internal schedule that they set up for themselves for a job that was in progress, which is a lot different than setting a complete project development/build schedule and hitting it.
This work to get ready for building the prototypes was already in motion, and someone decided to put a timer on it to motivate themselves to get this one item done in a timely fashion. Basically, this is something the engineers themselves could control and not the executive (re: the shot clock)
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/25/gms-response-to-the-gm-voltcom-first-chevy-volt-to-be-built-post-and-comments/
(Of interest: this is was also the thread I got to be labelled a ‘villain’ by GM…happy to be of service. Darn you Rob Petereson /shakes fists, hehe)
Sidenote: I wasn’t even going to mention this, but…
Technically, the goal coming out of this stage was, “….my goal is by Forth of July to be out driving several of them.” (Andrew Farah), and that although the “first one will take longer to produce…They will then be built at a rate of roughly 10 per week until a total fleet of over 80 is completed”
Well, there wasn’t ’several’ of them done and driving around on the 4th of July, we had one (if there was several, you can bet they would have been shown)…and I kinda doubt there is going to be 80 done by August 29th, although they still have time for that one…I really didn’t want to mention it, so as not to minimize their accomplishment
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/25/first-genuine-chevy-volt-integration-vehilce-to-be-completed-by-june-1-2009/
/I assume you have now been ‘disheartened’? You really shouldn’t be…quality is as big a issue as punctuality at this point.
A lot of times people get hung up on me for calling them out on overambitious schedules, pricing, options, specifications, etc. and interpret it that I am just here to be a pain the butt, or that I am always negative…but I am just reacting realistically, or what I interpret to be a realistic assessment of whatever the facts are that are being represented.
If they could have done what they originally represented (and what they continually represented over the first two years…until the last knife hit last september), that would have been one of those most fantastical feats in automotive history. I just didn’t believe it…so almost all my posts had a ‘pfft’ flavor to them.
However, if they can get to market first, with a quality project then that is still a job very well done in my books.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (8:20 am)“GM product chief says no delay for plug-in SUV”
See Reuters.com Green Business section.
This may make Nasaman happy, of course if it is a pricey Caddy maybe not.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (8:25 am)Personally, I don’t care much how the ICE will behave will driving the car at typical and usual circomstances it shall be designed for. I mostly have loud tunes on.
Personally speaking, the only relevant point for me is the average MPG I can rely on while driving AFTER battery depletion mode exclusively. If engineers can manage it well (50+ MPG?
), I shall give it a go, although it’s a 4 seater car (grrr…).
Can’t wait til Lyle get’s a test drive, and hope he could get some numbers
Cheers
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Jul 7th, 2009 (8:27 am)Me too, surely anyone who shells out a $10K plus premium has a clue about it being a different car and expects a different feeling.
However, I can see some benefit to making it seem more normal for those that come after the first 100,000 or so of informed purchasers. That is those that really make this a mass market vehicle. Setting the vehicle up for being more normal, except you don’t have to fill it up more than a couple of times a year has some merit.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:27 am)The development of the Volt is exciting to watch. It’s hard to believe that the world is just over a year away from the first 10,000 Volts being in the garages of the public.
Looking forward to owning a white Volt in late 2011.
=D~
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Jul 7th, 2009 (8:28 am)I did not read the entire thread, so sorry if this is redundant. I did not see where Farah indicated ICE RPM varies with “throttle” position! Rather the car responds to the “throttle” position like a normal car, the feel is the same because you get an immediate response. The electric motor responds to the “throttle” and the car accelerates. No news there.
Then he said “the engine RPMs follow.” To which I ask, follow what and after what sort of time delay, microseconds or hours? We know, or at least I believe we know, that the ICE is governed by several variables. First of course is state of charge, with the SOC above 35% the ICE remains off, even if you put the “throttle” to the floor. Next, for those who believe the ICE operates at discrete RPM levels depending on the SOC (an urban average level, a highway average level, and a maximum output level) the RPMs “follow” the SOC. But this overall behavior is filtered by the “throttle” such that even with a low enough SOC to call for max output, if you stop the car (throttle not depressed and car comes to rest) the ICE RPM either comes to zero or the low -urban average- RPM.
Next, lets say we are driving along with the ICE operating at the low RPM urban average speed, and we turn on to a freeway and depress the accelerator to accelerate to and sustain 70 MPH. Even though the SOC might not call for the highway RPM level, might not the “throttle position/speed of vehicle” input have the ICE “feather up” to the mid RPM level? In other words, if the “demand” (kw being used) is more than the next higher level would produce, then the ICE RPM could closely follow the “throttle” position, and go to the next higher RPM level. Just a thought.
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:29 am)Delighted that this problem is being attended to! I have been harping on this for many months that to entertain the human being with all of it’s various abilities to perceive the environment you must attach a connection to real time. ICE does this in spades. So now a better Fahrvergnugen experience for Das Volt. Thank you for having your head really in the game on this subtle but important element from the beginning and not some generation down the road. Says a great deal, actually. Well done!
Will read what all of you have written later as I have to make way to work in pouring wet stuff, I think it is called rain, here in hot and muggy Houston. I seem to recall a certain bridge that I helped build long ago. Gads!
Carcus1 go check my reply about the Lads.
Regards! OLDHIGGINS
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:46 am)one unique difference on the Volt is that the computer can instantly remove the generator load from the ice, or not.. and change the valve timing and so on independently of the what the wheels need.. and thus precisely controlling the emissions and fuel consumption.. once the ice is divorced from the wheels there is all kinds of tricks you can do.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (8:51 am)Nothing to do with the price of cheese (or the topic of the thread), but GM related, and Volt ‘parts bin’ related….so I’ll tuck this down at the bottom, so as not to disturb the content:
Because of the production cuts by GM and Ford, and the total production shutdown of Chrsyler, Lear couldn’t make it’s committments on credit…and filed for banktuptcy today. Of interest, this is the largest part supplier so far to go ‘under’.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/31772749
They had been talking about maybe going C11 for a long time because of, well…no work, however, they do have a ‘plan’ to come out, a pre-packaged deal agreed to by creditors…and the majority of DIP in place already no less. (from Citi and JP Morgan…hrm, I wonder why they agreed to do that? hrm…)
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:51 am)Tagamet, you’re absolutely right. If you want to build a car for the masses, you need to remember that most people are allergic to change. The more usual the car sound and feel – especially if it sounds like a sports car – the better.
I think it’s a sign that GM is dead serious about electric cars this time. They truly intend to ramp up production. Good for us.
Having said that, it would be nice to have the option to customize.
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+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:55 am)I want to urge Farah’s engineering staff to sound proof the Volt’s cabin to the extent possible. The technology is highly advanced and both passive & active sound deadening materials/devices are inexpensive. For example, a tiny inexpensive microphone/noise-cancelling circuit board could be concealed in the car’s dome light housing. As with noise-cancelling headsets, this circuit could be tuned to virtually eliminate tire/road noise, wind buffeting noise and engine/generator noise.
GM’s long association with Bose engineers should be a leg up for them. Forget “Cadillac or library quiet” —make a sound-proof recording studio the goal!
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:59 am)Here’s my guess at how the ICE will operate (sorry I don’t have time to put into a flowchart):
Level 1
Below 30% SOC, engine starts, runs at idle speed ~ 600 rpm. Output ~ 4 kW. Engine always returns to this speed at vehicle zero speed.
Level 2
If SOC falls below 28%, engine speed increases to ~1500 rpm, 12 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 35% and engine is shut off, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 3
If SOC falls below 26%, engine speed increases to ~2000 rpm, 20 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 35% and engine is shut off, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 4
If SOC falls below 24%, engine speed increases to ~3000 rpm, 35 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 26% and engine goes to Level 3, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 5
If SOC falls below 22%, engine speed increases to ~4500 rpm, 53 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 24% and engine goes to Level 4. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
I expect best efficiency at Level 2 and Level 3, so these are the preferred points of operation, and the ICE will operate at Level 4 & 5 only when absolutely necessary.
I don’t profess to know these numbers exactly, but am just suggestling how the software may control the ICE, with engine speed always returning to idle at coastdown and at vehicle stop.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:02 am)The first time I sat in my daughter’s Prius, I waited (and waited) for it to “start up”, but it was “on” already. Looking back on it, it’s funny, but things like “familiar” sound effects related to the engine may be important once they get past the people on our “lunatic fringe” (g).
I’m TOTALLY sold on the idea of a car as quiet as electrons can make it and hope that the engine sounds will only be a memory.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:02 am)I like the sound of that. I don’t need to be “transitioned” to a new paradigm. Just warn me that the ICE will run at the sweet spot when I am stopped and I won’t think something is wrong.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:09 am)Can’t stop thinking about this. Maybe have a kill switch for the GM passenger to push if nutso gets behind the wheel. also have the car react to a laptop computer held by the GM guy and then limit the test drive to 4-5 miles but the driver experiences BEV and EREV to get a full reaction.
Have 10 of these Volts and locate them in different types of driving conditions. Mountains, desert, big city stop and go, hot and humid south east, Alaska, rolling hills.
I would be most interested in what the Prius owners would say and those who think electric is a golf cart type vehicle.
And I should be one of those uninformed test drivers!!!
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-3
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:14 am)Keep the negative votes coming!. They provide confirmation of what some have been saying all along.
Engineering is a balance of tradeoffs. Combine that with the realities of the automotive market, you’ve got a consumer driven vehicle rather than the ideal efficiency design.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:14 am)“Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in and run mostly in charge-sustaining mode with the ICE”
Lithium cells are stored at half charge, they have the longest life that way. Perhaps the Volt should sense this pattern of use and move the depleted point up to 50%.
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+4
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:15 am)If I wanted a sports car sound and throttle bliping I would save some money and buy a camaro or mustang. Mature adults will buy this car. Make it quiet and let flowmaster or magnaflow build exaust for the fart pipe boys………
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:19 am)From the front to end of the rear door, the car looks like my former car, the Saturrn Ion.
It probably has the same electric pwr. steering and electric AC motor too.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:19 am)“Or how about some program change that improves the all electric mode for the style of driving the owner most often does (city – congested, short blocks with stop lights, long blocks with few stop lights…etc).”
Better yet, use the GPS to customize the mode for where you actually are. Short blocks with stop lights, then through the light and onto the freeway. Likewise with approaching uphill, top of hill, downhill, etc.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:20 am)Basically, fewer dealers means those dealers have more incentive to invest in their business. Cleaner show rooms. Better customer service, etc. That makes GM look better.
Also, it saves them money in administration and transportation costs.
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+4
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:24 am)An excellent & educated guess, Bill! The only thing I want to add is that I think it was Andrew Farah that described the increase/decrease in engine rpms as being “feathered” —and I took “feathered” to mean very gradual or virtually unnoticeable both in sound and in feel. This reasserts the point I raised in #15 above, to “forget ‘Cadillac or library quiet’ & make a sound-proof recording studio the goal” ….so that when the ICE is operating at ANY rpm Volt occupants should be able to “hear a feather drop”!
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:29 am)I’m not a big fan of Toyota or Lexus styling – even though I’ve owned two Toyotas. The only head-turner for me is the Lexus SC two-seater convertible. The Volt is OK, I won’t be at all embarrassed to be driving one in a few years. If you look at the photo above and compare it to the IS photos I see similar lines.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:34 am)There will be software hacks in the future for just that.. the ice could just be unbolted, the generator would probably stay behind since its integrated into the transaxle. Dont try this with a Prius.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:35 am)My thoughts exactly (see #31)
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:46 am)Funny that a lot of people are seeing similarities with other cars they’ve owned. I see my 2005 Acura TL on the side view. Sure the TL is much larger and the back is different, but still:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/2004_Acura_TL.jpg
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:47 am)The original design is still in process. You must have meant the “looks” component of the original concept. I’ll get my Volt. It will still be a plug-in with enough AER to drastically reduce my gasoline consumption. To me, the Volt was primarily about the performance, not the appearance. You can still get a standout “appearance” car if that is what you are into. The Camaro looks good. Down the road, a Voltec Camaro?
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:48 am)This is a great suggestion. Not only is a more quiet ride associated with a more expensive sedan, it’s a signature ride for an EV. If you want road you can always open a window! It would be a shame for the engineers to have eliminated the whine in the EV mode and then allow noise back in by not doing the basic things.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:50 am)You people made a lot of comments about the Engine RPMs. Doesn’t anyone care about the “Feel of a Sports Car?”
I can’t wait for my “practical” sedan to be that much fun to drive.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (9:58 am)looking back at the first iron buildings and seeing imitations of fancy Victorian era wooden building details,
——————–
Such an elegant reference. It brings to mind the Crystal Palace, with its hall of steel and glass opening up a new world of building design.
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+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:00 am)Another great report, Lyle. You just keep on delivering one after the other. Thanks.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:02 am)The hints are very strong that it is an atkinson cycle:
1. it is an easy conversion, just change the camshafts.
2. 50kw is what an atkinsonized 1.4l 4 cyl gas ice would put out, based on the Toyota example.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:04 am)good idea.
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+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:07 am)What is a “liquid sound deadener”?
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+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:10 am)Yes, they are certainly putting a lot of thought and effort into it and from what they have said they are exploring all angles. I just hope they don’t make a design decision based based on an unwarranted consumer expectation. I agree they will slow down the generator at slow speeds and have said they will stop it at lights. I’m on board with this, especially with the losses associated with extra generator energy being directed through the battery. I’m just hoping that their control logic is wieghted more towards saving gas than minor ICE noise. Either way, there are several parameters the engineers are balancing and since it is control software we are talking about they can always easily tweak it to improve the product (one of the many benefits of EREV).
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:10 am)People demand perfection even in a $12k car.. this is the lesson Japan taught Detroit..
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:11 am)Kind of. Both cars are boring to look at, so yeah, they’re similar.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:12 am)I really like the idea of a unique software profile for different drivers. I know the wife has a much heavier foot than do I. Maybe encode something on the ignition key to discern who is who rather than forcing drivers to choose their profile.
I think the more “normal” and “ordinary” the Volt seems to it’s driver, the more likely the technology will gain wide acceptance.
We are in the techno-geek age, but in many ways people are still fearful of new things.
“Ooooh. Fire. Bad.”
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:14 am)Donkey mode?.. you mean a very low gear ratio, high torque mode, high engine rpm?..
I guess you could temporarily bypass the temperature sensors on the motor, when you ask Scotty for more power.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:17 am)It bears a resemblance to other successful, popular cars. You know, there’s only so much tweaking you can do if you want: 4 seats, trunk, front engine, under such-and-such length and weight, etc. The Volt IS a nice car design. It’s well thought through, not like a lot of models by American car companies that couldn’t have been bothered to take precious time away from their SUV development.
I see a resemblance to the Honda Civic (yeah, same parent company as Acura). This is not a problem. It does have it’s own design language, though. It’s not so similar that you’re not going to walk up to one thinking it’s an Acura and put the key in the door accidentally.
It *would* be a problem if it were so ‘out there’ it reminded you of a dud/lemon/unpopular car…
“Aztek.”
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:18 am)1. What horsepower do you think is required to maintain the volt at 70 mph?
2. What is the percentage of efficiency loss that you would account for from ICE to wheels? (i.e. generator efficiency loss, loss through batteries, electronics, traction motor)
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:19 am)Tag, I agree with you on the engine sounds. Just thinking of speeding down a nice country road with no engine sound is exciting all by itself. There will be plenty of road and wind noise. I would be totally surprised if GM were to be able to cancel all that out. If so, so much the better for the driving experience.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:19 am)The engine does not follow the gas pedal in a Prius, same to a lesser degree in the Insight.. many people complain about it until they get used to it… then they complain about regular cars when they get back into them
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:20 am)(wow, proofreading FAIL)
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:22 am)Just call it the accelerator pedal for future reference.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:23 am)Agreed.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:24 am)Now we use styrofoam covered with stucco. I think that’s called devolution.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:25 am)Yes exactly, at the dawn of the auto age!
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:28 am)Very exciting times we’re in!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:30 am)People DON’T demand perfection, nor will they ever receive it, especially in a mid-priced car. Very good, outstanding, excellent–call it what you will, but perfection is impossible. Trade-offs are inevitable.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:30 am)Hi Higgins,
No doubt you’re black furred companions will have their noses hanging out of the portholes all the way back.
Always enjoy a good war story. (get to hear them at work occasionally, but from a different “asian conflict”)
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:31 am)I do not understand why the ICE and Genset can not be put into a sound proof box – I have no desire to hear the ICE even if it is going full tilt. I realize that it would take some extra work with intake and exhast mufflers, but they could make the ICE really quite even at high power.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:31 am)Just show me the car! I think this stuff is silly, but I’m past caring what it sounds like. I have to confess that the photo gives me a bit of pause, but I’m also past caring what it looks like.
Although, I do have to sell it to “She Who Must”. Well, we can’t start that process unitil there is a real car to see. She even has this crazy idea that she has to test drive a car before she buys it. Can you imagine such a thing?
She was pretty OK with the prototype in Santa Monica, but this one looks subtly different. Anyway, it’s the only GM car I’m likely to buy, so:
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:32 am)Tall Pete said:
…it would be nice to have the option to customize
BUT first
LJGTVWOTR!!!!!!!! (g)
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:33 am)It is a Chevy after all.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:36 am)While your somewhat convoluted interpretation of the process — no executive decisions and engineers keeping the process going — is somewhat plausible, you can get to the same place if you simply accept that GM has been saying — that the Volt is a “go” and GM is on schedule. That would be the more simple explanation, and the simpler explanation is usually the best.
As for overambitious schedules and so forth, you need to stop taking everything so literally. Not every stray statement should be treated as a “representation,” especially when those statements are made very early in the process. At the beginning of development optimism runs strong and everything seems possible. Then as the process develops time and cost constraints intrude and trade-offs need to be made.
For example, this is exactly what happened with the price of the Volt. What did Lutz say happened? That the engineers said they couldn’t get to the target price unless they had substantially more time to optimize the car. So the choice was sooner and more expensive or later and less expensive. This is the way it works. It’s not surprising and it certainly shouldn’t be construed as not fulfilling a promise.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:38 am)Everclear!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:41 am)What year is your Saturn and model?
I am looking for an electric AC motor for my EV conversion?
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:42 am)Thats for BMW, we are talking Chevy here.. Go Pedal sounds better.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:49 am)“Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in…”
_____________
Hopefully a large portion of those buyers will have kids, parents, a wife, girlfriend or even a pet that walks by the car sees, oh it’s not plugged in and plugs the thing in.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:52 am)would you hear another car honking at you?.. or the siren from an ambulance?..
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:53 am)Somebody said at one time it took 22KW to maintain freeway speed.
22KW / 745.6 = 29.506HP
Where 745.6 is the watt equvalent of 1HP.
Can’t answer #2 though, sorry.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:56 am)Then the journalist looks up at the gas station sign and sees the $6 per gallon price and says “nevermind”
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:56 am)By the time you have yourself settled and seatbelt fastened 20 seconds will have clicked by anyway.
I don’t see a problem.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:58 am)(add)
From 30% to 22% SOC (which is also about where I’d guess as low as GM would safely go) is only 1.3 kwh. 1.3 kwh could be gone in less than a minute under heavy use (back to back hard accelerations, hill climbs, high speeds). Now the car would be totally running on ICE power (no battery reserve) and we’re back to a “Sybil” of a car with split/multiple personality.
GM can’t allow this from a safety perspective, which is still why I think they will design the car to “run away” from the 30% SOC and have the generator running harder to get up to the top of the battery SOC (or at least, something higher than 30%) as soon as it kicks into ER mode.
Also, I still think cycling the battery at the lower %SOC’s (i.e. 30% to 22%) is going to put significantly more wear on the battery than if it was cycling up towards the top (i.e. 80% to 72%). (but I’ll admit, battery chemistry could surprise me on this one)
Atkinson cycle is less torque. Again, less torque would be an especially bad thing if there’s not a lot of battery reserve to help the ICE. If they let the ICE maintain the battery at a higher SOC (thus more battery reserve) then maybe you could have an Atkinson, but the point is moot. GM has given no indication of an Atkinson being used.
/ 1. Battery life 2. Acceleration performance 3. Fuel Efficiency 4. Engine noise
This is how I would rank the problems GM is working on . . . even though they’ll only admit to number 4.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:58 am)Actually Keith, That is exactly what we are talking about. I am suggesting that the automobile NOT be built for me or any other person who expects the feel of an old ICE car. I am suggesting that it be built as a technological advancement and development of the modern auto just as you describe.
I argue that having the RPMs change to make people feel that the accellerator pedal is connected to the ICE is the childish idea if it affects the cars efficiency in any way at all. They spent many weeks in a wind tunnel fretting over drag counts (.001). The question I have is whether the rambling RMP approach is most efficient. If not, then I argue that GM is being childish or treating the buyers as childish. I want a grown up car that maximizes efficiency.
I also argued in another of the posts that what a driver really wants is some type of connection to the driving experience through the actual engine and drive train. Then engine is electric. No matter how quiet it is you will feel some vibration and hear some hum as it goes and as you go faster and slower. When you go faster, it will hum at a higher pitch. This is your connection to the electric motor. For the first 40 miles, you will be in tune with this as you drive.
This is the driving experience that I want and I want it all the time.
Once the ICE kicks on, I want to continue with this feel for the car. I want to hit the pedal and feel the electric motor pull me along. If the ICE has to run, I would argue that it would be better for it to run at one RPM (background noise) that I could learn to tune out so I could continue to focus on my electric driving experience. If the ICE is rambling around at different RPMs, it will screw up the expericence of the electric drive IMO.
If GM is trying to tune the ICE to match the cars performance, I don’t think they will ever get it just right. If it is not just right, it will be awkward and screw up the driving experience that I noted above.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:59 am)Did you guys see this? Zenn is going public.
Buy some shares of Zenn for $3.50
http://www.emediaworld.com/press_release/release_detail.php?id=627283
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Jul 7th, 2009 (10:59 am)IMO it’s the affects on the critical path that will change the scheduled dates. Even though GM’s explanations aren’t very detailed, they have said the critical path has not been affected by their schedule alterations.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:02 am)You ever owned a Honda?.. only complaint I have is those stupid timing belts.. they should use chains and put up with the noise.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:02 am)Usually I agree with you Nasaman, but not this time.
There is a point where a car is so quiet as to disconnect the driver from driving. It could become dangerous to have the driver so ‘distant’ from the business of driving.
I AM curious as to why noise is such an issue. I suppose it has to do with the fact that a 4 cyl engine tends to be ‘buzzy’ and could be hard to keep really quiet.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:05 am)Thick goo used to dampen sound.
Liquids are terrible sound transmitters, so therefore excellent sound deadeners.
I have no idea what the goo is made of though.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:06 am)// You’d think a lot (most?) of this would be solved with computer simulation. But battery (and generator) performance is going to vary a fair amount depending on temperature and load, so in this instance there just may not be any substitute for the real thing.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:11 am)Arrr…..matey’s.
Me thinks we’re all in accord that we should hear nothing at all or an rpm feather up/don as we drive.
What say U!!
Where’s me Rum?
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:11 am)Think of your most technophobe friend or family member.
THEY need to feel comfortable with the driving experience.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:11 am)People demand perfection far more in $12k car than a cutting edge $200k car. The low priced car is seen only as a simple appliance, what could go wrong with an appliance right?
Where is the Volt sitting by those measures?
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:11 am)It was my former car, I traded it for a new Impala. But you can get those electric AC motors from any GM Delta car, Ion, Cobolt, or HHR.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:12 am)/// Efficiency, temperature, power and other factors will all affect each other and change the parameters and outcomes in a dynamic environment. The complexities here could be high.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:13 am)Level 6
If SOC falls below 20%, engine speed remains at ~4500 rpm, 53 kW. Vehicle speed and power demand is reduced to match power made by the genset.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:13 am)The car has an ICE. Maybe you would like a non range extended electric?
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:16 am)I don’t think they’re looking at the problem this way. Rather than having the ICE recharge the batteries I think the idea is to have the ICE supply the average power necessary to power the car and to charge and recharge the battery pack sparingly around the 30% SOC. If this is the case then the ICE would match the demands of the drive cycle rather than the SOC of the battery.
GM has said that at 65 mph on an uphill the genset needs to produce 30 kW and that it needs to produce 8 kW in city driving. If you add in an “in-between” drive cycle then you’d have your Levels 2, 3, and 4. They’ve already said the ICE will stop when the car stops which leaves your Level 1 in limbo.
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:17 am)REPORT: Saturn Vue plug-in replacement SUV on track, GM considering electric city car
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/07/report-saturn-vue-plug-in-replacement-suv-on-track-gm-consider/
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:19 am)Cool, Thanks!!!
I didn’t know any mfgrs used AC motor drive for their AC. Gonna go do some research now…..
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Jul 7th, 2009 (11:22 am)If the occupants couldn’t actually hear the ICE then all the interface issues surrounding the driver needing to have the RPMs match the throttle disappear. That is such a simple and elegant solution I’m assuming they can’t get that result.
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