AND 
Fisker Tries to Distance Company From Tesla and Volt
The electric car marketplace is very young and yet to truly emerge. I would liken it to the Internet in 1992.
At this point there are a few players that are trying to distinguish themselves and aim to claim certain market segments.
One such player is Henrik Fisker, the founder of California-based Fisker Automotive. His company has designed and built the rather stylish Fisker Karma which is set to debut in Spring 2010. The car, like the Volt, is also an extended range electric vehicle (EREV), with 50 miles electric driving range and a gasoline range extender for longer distances. It is a 4-door sports car that will retail at $87,500. It is also powerful, using two 201 hp electric motors and going from 0 to 60 in 5.8 seconds.
Though Tesla is also based in California and sells a stylish electric sportscars, Fisker doesn’t want people to confuse the two companies. “The full-electric car [like the Tesla Roadster] is a niche market. Plug-in hybrids have a much bigger market,” he says.
Fisker expects to be able to sell 15,000 Karmas annually and has contracted a plant in Finland capable of producing 20,000 per year. But even at low volumes Fisker thinks he will be successful. “We have a new business model,” he says. “At 5,000 sales, we can make money.”
Obviously the market for $87,000 cars isn’t limitless. Fisker says he also has a plan to build a “lower in price, a mass market vehicle with high volume using common components with the Karma.” And with such a car in production, “there’s no reason we can’t eventually produce hundreds of thousands of cars a year,” he says.
Since the Fisker is using the same EREV design strategy as the Volt, and will offer a low priced variant in the future, you would think Fisker sees the Volt as competition. Not so he says, why? “Its a Chevy” says Fisker.
Somewhat ironic in his put-down of the American iconic brand is the fact that the Karma’s gas engine will be sourced from, that’s right, General Motors. For range extension, the car uses a turbocharged 2.0-liter Ecotec® direct injection (D1) gasoline engine. So the Karma may actually be partly a Chevy on the inside after all.
Source (HybridCars)
168 Responses to “Fisker Tries to Distance Company From Tesla and Volt”
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July 5th, 2009 at 7:44 am
Lyle: “rather stylish”???
Let’s be fair here. The Fisker Karma is a beautiful automobile!
$87.5K just puts it out reach for most people.
IMHO, I think the snub at Chevy is his way to set his car as being different from the Volt and trying to appeal to a different market of car buyers. Those in that range want the snob appeal.
Whether or not he can make money at 5K units is a completely different situation. With no dealer network, and no service in place, he will have a hard time with the big money crowd, who like to be pampered….
July 5th, 2009 at 7:46 am
How big is the gas tank?
What’s the range in RE mode?
July 5th, 2009 at 7:47 am
I wish Fisker well. I think they will be a major pain to Tesla. The range extended electric car as both a sportmodel and a family car should be a success. And I agree it will not be in competition with the Volt.
July 5th, 2009 at 7:48 am
Say what you want about the guy he sure knows how to design a cool looking car. I wonder what the cheap version will look like.
July 5th, 2009 at 7:51 am
man thats cool that GM is supplying engines but then u know there should be an american plant that manufactures the car and not finland
July 5th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Reminds me a bit of the Iso Grifo…
Hot body with a Corvette Engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso_Grifo
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/iso-sports-cars.htm
I remember sitting in one at the New York Auto Show.
So how many Fiskers can Henrik, make? and will they be as reliable as the Chevy? Best of luck to him. Once upon a time Federico Lamborghini thought he could do better.
July 5th, 2009 at 7:56 am
will fisker qualify for the loans if they simply build the car outside USA and bring and sell it here
July 5th, 2009 at 8:00 am
If is becomes a success then I think it will be built here or a cheap labor country. [hopefully here] It is costly to manufacture and ship product from Finland to the major markets. I know Europe is a major market but it also has a slew of builders there already.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:02 am
What is the transition from EV to RE mode like?
Do any of these unanswered questions sound familiar?
July 5th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Honda did.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Jim, he is right, the market for a 40,000 vehicle is totally different from a 87,000 vehicle.
In the same way a market for a 25,000 vehicle is mostly different from a 40,000 vehicle.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Another winning topic, Lyle! Along with yesterday’s topic (Toyota’s plan to offer plug-in hybrids), the Fisker Karma will help car buyers realize it makes sense to PLUG CARS IN…
….AND even more sense to buy an electric car with an EREV drive train!
July 5th, 2009 at 8:28 am
You mean Ferruccio Lamborghini.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:57 am
All of Fisker’s designs are stunning and its the perfect package around which to deliver new technology.
There are going to be very few winners in the transition to electric and the first to market have all the advantage.
I think BMW will buy a piece of Fisker. I used to think it would be Ford, but they’ve waited too long to declare bankruptcy. Maybe Toyota, Honda or Nissan will act first, as Daimler did with Tesla Motors.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Federico Lamborghini used a Giotto Bizzarrini designed V12 in his cars, Bizzarrini who also designed the ISO cars finally built his own cars. When Bizzarrini designed his own car the Bizzarrini 5300GT he used a GM engine…
http://www.qv500.com/bizzarrini5300p4.php
So there is something to be said for the GM Voltec engine.
/though Statik may say Giotto could not afford his own engine..
July 5th, 2009 at 9:13 am
EDIT: too long a post to say very little, I’ll condense
Basic premise…Henrik Fisker was showing the reporter the ‘pimp hand’ for jackassing him with a Volt question at his big show. Like a Cadillac dealer would if someone was talking to him about a Hyundai.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:26 am
What we know:
Overall Vehicle Specification
Acceleration (’sport’ mode)
0-60 miles/hour = 5.8 seconds (0-100 km/h in 6 seconds)
Top speed (continuous) = 125 miles/hour (200 km/h)
Weight
curb weight = 4,650 lbs
Range
Electric Only Range = 50 miles EPA city cycle
Total Range = Over 300 miles
Exterior Dimensions
Overall Length = 4987 mm
Overall Width = 1984 mm
Overall Height = 1330 mm
Front Overhang = 913 mm
Rear Overhang = 914 mm
Wheelbase = 3160 mm
Front Track = 1689 mm
Rear Track = 1720 mm
Power-Train Specifications:
Rear Wheel Drive
Performance:
Stealth Mode = max 95 mph – battery only
Performance Mode = max 125 mph – (ICE & battery-combined)
Drive Motor(s) Power = 2 x 150 kW (408 hp)
Battery Size
Dimensions = 1870 mm L x 205 mm W x 360 mm H
Energy Capacity = 22.6 kW hours
ICE Power-Train = 2.0 Liter DI Turbo Ecotec (260 hp)
Exhaust System Location = Engine Bay
Transmission = Not Required
Tires
Front: 245/35R22 Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 with optimized rolling resistance
Rear: 265/35R22 Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 with optimized rolling resistance
Solar recharging rate (option):
0.5 kWh/day
130 W
-or- driver utilize solar power to ventilate the passenger compartment and reduce the effects of radiant heating
July 5th, 2009 at 9:30 am
______________________________________________________
Fisker Karma vs. Tesla Model S:
The Fisker Karma and Tesla Model S are also very different cars in terms of the business strategy behind those cars. Fisker is going down the path of outsourcing the manufacturing and retail functions while Tesla plans to manufacture and sell the cars themselves.
Although Henrik Fisker is correct that the Fisker Karma and Tesla Model S are very different cars, I believe that those individuals that can afford either car may have a hard time picking which car to purchase.
Power Plant:
Fisker Karma: EREV (similar to Voltec); AER=40miles
Tesla Model S: BEV; AER = 300 miles (w/ larger battery option)
Performance (0-60mph):
Fisker Karma: 5.8sec
Tesla Model S: 5.6sec
Manufacturing:
Fisker Karma: Outsourced
Tesla Model S: In-House (California Plant)
Retail Network:
Fisker Karma: Outsourced (vis-à-vis franchise dealer network)
Tesla Model S: In-House (Company owned stores located in high profile cities).
Price:
Fisker Karma: $87,000
Tesla Model S: $72,400 ($57,400 + ~$15,000 for larger 300AER battery)
Which of the two cars would you buy (if you could afford either car)?
______________________________________________________
July 5th, 2009 at 9:30 am
It is Valmet Automotive that is assembling them. They have a nice faciltiy…currently producing the Porsche Cayman and Porsche Boxster there.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Chevy’s are commoners cars, people pay more for cars sometimes (if they can afford them) just because they aren’t as common as other people’s. A lot of German cars are no better looking than a Japanese car (I think the new Hondas and Acuras look pretty nice), and have more maintenance to deal with and special mechanics to find, and cost 2-3 times as much but people still buy them.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:37 am
“It’s a Chevy” isn’t a put down at all – it is simply pointing out what
we already know – the Volt is not being marketed at the same folks who would pay $80K for a car. How in the world could anyone cast the Volt as an alternative Karma? Not mentioned was the fact that
Fisker was sued by Tesla in a lawsuit an irate judge declared was without any merit and not based on “good faith” (meaning it was a lawsuit that attempted to destroy a competitor. Tesla was ordered to pay Fisker over $1 million.
The Karma has an ingenius “performance mode” whereby the car draws both from the battery and the range extender simultaneously
to obtain enough power for rapid acceleration, hill climbing, etc.
Fisker is the company that Tesla would have been if Tesla had any engineering or design capability. Tesla is driving sales via Hollywood pals and pretending to be a tech leader. Right – with 8000 flashlight batteries, they are really leading the way.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:40 am
I thikn the question is, “Which one would you buy if they were both real. The Model S only exists on paper, and will be delivered ’sometime in the future’
Fisker is actually in the building stage, and starts delivering these cars in 5 months. All Tesla has right now is air…and hopes to get it out in late 2011/early 2012.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:47 am
______________________________________________________
Statik,
You make an excellent point regarding timeframe 2010 Karma vs. 2012 (maybe) Tesla S….but hypothetical if both cars were available today, which would you pick???
_____________________________________________________
July 5th, 2009 at 10:02 am
” Like a Cadillac dealer would if someone was talking to him about a Hyundai.”
__________
“Perhaps the most striking fact about our landslide winner is that even if it cost the same as the CTS, it still would have won in a landslide.”
Luxury Sedan Showdown: 2008 Cadillac CTS DI V6 vs. 2009 Hyundai Genesis V6
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/2009/03/luxury-sedan-showdown-2008-cadillac-cts-di-v6-vs-2009-hyundai-genesis-v6.html
/maybe another analogy?
July 5th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Lyle, I had the same reaction as Jim. Rather stylish?
Calling the Karma rather stylish is like calling Aishwarya Rai (Queen of Bollywood) rather attractive.
That car is gorgeous!
July 5th, 2009 at 10:03 am
A 2.0 turbo Ecotec — that engine produces 260 hp. Why does it need so much power for the generator? Makes me wonder if the drive-train is serial or not…
The Karma should be the same price as the Converj (if that comes through). That seems like a more apt comparison. Both are beautiful vehicles. The Karma will definitely have the exotic appeal. The Converj, however, will be a 4-seater and definitely have the better developed voltec system and battery.
July 5th, 2009 at 10:07 am
I guess I should have been more clear. Those are rhetorical questions.
What we don’t know about the Karma is the same thing we don’t know about the volt: performance in Range Extender mode.
/ you realize I’ve posted a few times on gm-volt.com before, right?
July 5th, 2009 at 10:09 am
The Volt MSRP will be about 42k… that is not a commoner car. That is a luxury car $$$. Remember, the monthly payment even with the moronic cash for clunker plan, is $800/month. When the median income for the USA is 32k, it shows GM has no clue how to make money and probably should have been allowed true Ch11 where the carcass was allowed to be bought out by the private sector.
July 5th, 2009 at 10:14 am
I give the guy credit for designing and engineering a EREV, then selling at a price point to make money from day one.
In this respect GM and government bodies in charge of it prove their stupidity. A $42k compact car, which will lose money for 5+ years, is dumb. This is luxury car. When the median income of America is 32k, how can GM even think of trying to sell this as a Chevy?
GM should have been sold off in pieces like a true Ch11 would have allowed. Maybe Penske would have bought enough parts of GM to have a money making EREV from day one.
July 5th, 2009 at 10:22 am
The more the merrier, but I’m wondering how they fit that many kWh in that beautiful car. “Better” chemistry? Cell management? I know our Volt only uses half of it’s “juice” but 22.5 in their format has to be a tight fit.
Ideas?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 5th, 2009 at 10:37 am
I believe those start-up companies are blowing a lot of air and will fail in long term unless some big companies pick them up. Time will tell.
July 5th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Statik, where is the Valmont plant?
Thinks,
Be well,
Tagamet
July 5th, 2009 at 10:41 am
The Karma is a competitor with the Tesla Roadster, not the model S. It’s performance, being a 2-seater, and price (if you don’t add all those batteries) match it more closely to the Roadster.
July 5th, 2009 at 10:44 am
I totally agree re the topic. I do think that there is going to be a need for education re the plus of the range extended model. At this point some will think that it’s just a longer cord!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!! **********No EREV, No sale.
July 5th, 2009 at 10:46 am
The Karma is quite a bit bigger than the volt.
Compare Volt dimensions (and guesstimated 3500lb weight) to Karma Dimensions (by statik @ 2)
Preliminary volt dimensions:
Wheelbase (in / mm):
105.7 / 2685
Length (in / mm):
177 / 4404
Width (in / mm):
70.8 / 1798
Height (in / mm):
56.3 / 1430
http://jalopnik.com/5050422/production-chevy-volt-press-photos-revealed-now-without-engineers
July 5th, 2009 at 10:47 am
The most solid and dependable car wins. Why do people spend $45,000-$104,000 for a small car from BMW?
All things being equal, Volt wins.
=D~
July 5th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Thanks, the larger size/weight means more demand on the battery, especially for the AER. Maybe you’re right and there’s just more room for battery, as you said.
Be well
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 5th, 2009 at 10:58 am
statik said “All Tesla has right now is air”
***********
Statik, I beg to differ with your above statement. I think you got it in reverse.
Tesla Motors has a proven track record of brining an electric car to market ( the Tesla Roadster) while all Fisker has right now is air in terms of any proven history of delivering an electric car to market. Tesla deserves big credibility points for selling electric cars TODAY while everyone else (including Fisker) is talking about how they plan at some future date to start selling electric cars.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Fisker debuts at 2008 NAIAS, to market in 2009. Under two years.
Volt debuts at 2007 NAIAS, to market ‘maybe’ late 2010, but likely 2011 in ‘real’ customers hands. Four years…maybe
Both EREVs -AND- Fisker retained all the concept hotness, remembered to do wind tunnel testing ahead of time even though this is their first car ever (lol), and did the things they said they would, (like aluminium spaec frame/panels, roof/solar options, 22 inch wheels, etc),
Not only does their engine run the generator….same as the Volt, but Fisker took it further, giving the driver the option to run both at the same time for performance.
Fisker has 100 employees and 333 million budget
—————–
How do we represent that GM have a special technological advantage at this point?
FIsker didn’t even exist as a company when the Volt debuted, so why can’t anyone and their dog (with half a billion to burn) do this if they choose to? Chrysler says they can and will…Ford too. Isn’t this really just a choice of ‘if’ you like the platform…and not ‘can you do it?’
Isn’t E-RE/ER-EV/Q-Drive really just a choice of a manufacturer, and not some proprietary juggernaut that some make it out to be?
Its just a generator that powers a electric motor and/or battery…I’m more impressed with the tech in the Blackberry Storm I just bought, or in my wife’s iPhone…now there is some tech, and even that is rendered obsolete every 12 months, how can a gas engine making electricity be represented as proprietary?
July 5th, 2009 at 11:06 am
I’ve wondered for some time if the ‘new’ GM would develop a business model for selling electric vehicle components to other manufacturers, and the engine for Fiskar is a case in point.
This might seem like GM is shooting itself in the foot, except that total volumes will drive down costs for Volt and other GM efforts.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:09 am
TroyK,
I don’t question Tesla’s value, or the relative weight in compared to Fisker.
The question wasn’t which is better company.
The question I posed was which would you chose if ‘they’ (meaning the actual cars themselves) were both real, the Fisker Karma or the Model S.
The Karma is real, and in production. Real car, real specs, real pricing, real delivery date…all known quantites. The Model S is nothing as of right now, it exists only on paper. A million things can (and will) happen/change between now and then.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Hi, welcome to the board, lol.
I guess I should have made a seperate ditty on the specs…sorry about that. I did it for the ‘greater good’ if someone wanted to know the ‘as of now’ specs…not so much you. (=
July 5th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Thats not what Lyle is saying. Since Fiskar will offer a lower priced variant it would be right in Volt’s price range.
—
Since the Fisker is using the same EREV design strategy as the Volt, and will offer a low priced variant in the future…
—
July 5th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Ok, good of you to post the specs (referenced them once already, myself)
/ had my coffee now, I feel better.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Uusikaupunki, Finland:
Valmet Automotive
PO Box 4, Autotehtaankatu 14,
FI-23501 Uusikaupunki,
Finland
Tel. +358 20 484 180, fax +358 20 484 181
Here is a shot of the facility:
http://www.valmet-automotive.com/automotive/images.nsf/files/b5f60a68a31a36bec225715b003fcba0
GoogleMaps FTW:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=uusikaupunki+valmet&fb=1&split=1&gl=ca&cid=0,0,8212552142631383912&ei=wdFQSqyhI4untgeIlYSpBA&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1
July 5th, 2009 at 11:22 am
CDAVIS’s hypothetical question got me thinking of the following:
Which would I choose (assuming they were both priced the same)?
A) Chevy VOLT EREV with 40 miles AER
or
b) Chevy VOLT BEV with 200-300 miles AER
I’d take the VOLT BEV if I knew I could get a quick charge (say 15min charge for 30% added soc = +100miles) at a fuel station.
That got me further thinking that quick charging being available (say 20%+ of gas stations) is the next big step for BEV. If that is in place, no need for EREV. Therefore, just a matter of time before BEV wins out over EREV.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Nah, I don’t think the Cadillac guy is going to respect the Hyundai, and I don’t think many people looking at Cadillacs are going to move into a Hyundai instead.
I love the Genesis myself, I think it is a great car for the buck. But image is just too wide a chasm here to overcome for Hyundai to be considered competition to GM…but just in my imo, I know what your saying though.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:27 am
This car has a Stealth Drive mode. Want !
July 5th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Thanks, Statik.
Maybe I’ll give them a call and try to get in their NA beta testing program (g). I hope their answering machine has an “English” version.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 5th, 2009 at 11:35 am
CDAVIS said:
Statik,
You make an excellent point regarding timeframe 2010 Karma vs. 2012 (maybe) Tesla S….but hypothetical if both cars were available today, which would you pick???
——————
If the specs are as you laid them out there in the real word? Hands down, no contest…the Model S. It is all about the BEV for me…that and the published specs are all very fantastical for the S.
To me the Model S annihilates just about every car (EV or ICE) anywhere near close its price range…I think it even steals half the Volt’s business if it was available at the same time with those numbers (the half of the Volt’s business that doesn’t have an issue with the scratch to put out a extra 15K…not the half that has never spent 40K on a automobile before).
Even most diehard, no BEV, range anxiety posters we ahve here would likely make the jump to the Model S over the Volt..if really got 300 miles on those numbers.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Have you ever heard of the Chevy Corvette ZR1? They sell it for over $100,000. And, from what I hear, they do quite well with it.
There’s no reason the Volt can’t be a similar exception–if GM wants it to be. From what I understand, they’re doing their best to reduce costs, so that gen 2 will be cheaper.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:44 am
I want to know how many sheets of plywood it will carry, this could be a deal breaker for me.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:45 am
I think 300 miles is really the ‘magic’ number for most people to put aside their ‘range anxiety’ issues. I know some people will say 500, or 1,000…or no amount is enough, but you would see wide spread adoption at that level I think.
…that being said, a real world, 300 mile BEV range is more ‘powered by crushed Unicorn horn’ technology than reality today.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Is the Volt just a poor man’s Karma ?
July 5th, 2009 at 11:54 am
With a spool of heavy twine, I’d say about 10.
/might scratch your solar panel, though.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Chevy just cannot get any respect I tell ya.
Now comes word that the MOST American car is no longer the Ford F-150 (5 time winner) but is now the Toyota Camry.
That’s right a Toyota is the Most American Car.
Whowouldathunkit.
July 5th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Let me get this straight. A little company can crank out a Super Volt in half the time and less than half the money GM can do a Volt in. If they can really pull this off, it will make Chevy engineers look very very bad.
July 5th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Nice to see that the genius on Obama’s Auto Task Force wouldn’t be caught dead in an American Car and has never set foot in an automotive assembly plant.
Meet your new Car Czar, Mr. Brian Deese. Oh yeah and he drives a silver HONDA !
This 31-year-old tour de force of the automotive industry has some big plans for the New GM. Get Ready everybody.
July 5th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Series Hybrid Performance History:
Vehicle / Performance in RE mode
AC propulsion range extender trailer / down on power, limited data
AC propulsion VW conversion / very slight mpg improvement, emissions problems, limited data
BYD F3DM / no data
GM Volt / no data
Fisker Karma / no data
Homebuilders / no data
/ Major auto manufacturers working on series/parallel, parallel, Ev’s: almost everybody
// Major auto manufacturers working on series: almost nobody
/// AC propulsion guys gave up on series hybrid and are EV proponents now
July 5th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
epäillä se
July 5th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
I think that is a different engine than in the Volt, don’t see how that could drive down any costs.
July 5th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Fisker hands down!!! Its EREV!!!!
July 5th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
With 2 seconds left on the clock, the GM team is on their own 2 yard line. GM trails by 37 points. Wagoner takes the snap, hands off to Lutz and trots off the field. A reverse handoff to Henderson! Henderson calls an audible for a Hail Mary! Henderson stumbles backward while awkwardly palming the pigskin. He looks like he’s getting ready to throw. . . . . . wait a minute. He’s signalling for a time out!!! What’s this???? Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!! Referee Obama has just stopped the game and put 2 minutes back on the clock!!!!!
Will we ever get to see Fritz attempt a 98 yard hail volt pass?!!
July 5th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
You don’t think 2.5 years to get to the first mostly production intent prototype is good enough?
—-
Seriously, it isn’t the engineers, they know their stuff…it is a management thing, and at the executive level.
The Volt started out as a ‘halo’ car, so it had a fantastical look, at a fantastical price…with a production goal waaaaay off into the future, so they wouldn’t have to spend that much money on it short term, and not really be that accountable in the short/near term.
Well, time passes quickly…and to boot, it now it pays to build money losing EVs, (to the tune of 10 billion+ in ‘loans’), and GM has to run around like a dog now to hit their self-imposed, often repeated deadline on time.
The engineers and the lower management will be paying the price of scheduling decisions from the executive boardroom, as they struggle to regain ground lost when they where told to sit on their hands and look busy, while not being allocated resources to do the job…and watch as contracts were not tendered and product specific components were lost – like the engine, and just about everything that was coming from GE. Unfortunately, and ultimately, they will also take most of the heat for any stumblings that most likely will come their way.
If they get production up and going on november 2010, they have my respect…big time.
July 5th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
I admit I have not followed the Fisker car closely. About like a kid who wants a dirt bike for Christmas but knows he is getting a used peddle type bike. Hense my question, has any independent body documented what Fisker is saying about the Karma? Like battery life, how was the battery tested, the marriage of the ICE and the battery,picture of the battery showing it will actually fit in the car, performance with and without the ICE. The list is much longer but my old fingers are tired of typing.
July 5th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Lets say the OLD GM could sell the Volt for $48,000 and make a profit.
Now lets assume 20% of that cost has been elimated by the Viability plan actions for the New GM. That means the Volt could sell for $40,000 and make money. Now lets assume, based on the expected reduction in the cost of the battery over the next 3 years (2010, 11 and 12) that the break even point drops to $34,000. Based on this, I expect the Volt MSRP will be $34,000 with GM making money in about 3 years. After the tax payer incentive, the cost to us, the consumers might be comfortably under $30,000.
July 5th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
All these responses overlook a vitally-important point, one I discussed at length with Andrew Farah at VoltNation last year…..
The Volt’s EREV architecture employs TWO independent energy sources/propulsion systems: 1) a battery & 2) a generator. With the careful design implementation I believe both GM & Fisker will employ to avoid credible single point failures, EREV should always be able to trump BEV in terms of real on-road reliability. IOW, the common experience we’ve all had of being stranded on a roadside (or the horrific experience of being disabled just to the left of the inside lane on a fast-moving freeway) should become little more than a memory —and eventually put AAA et al out of business!
As I told Andrew, I see this as a HUGE advantage of EREV over ICE, BEV, parallel hybrids or almost any other EV architecture I know of! (It’s the same philosopy we always try to apply in the manned space program to save lives —full redundancy— but it fortuitously comes at little or no added cost.)
July 5th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Fisker was likely referring to the “luxury” found in Chevy’s compared to what his expectations are going to be (I’m assuming Cadillac luxuriousness), but at a price between Chevy and Cadillac.
July 5th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Remember that in the original descriptions of the Volt concept, the price was imagined to be in the mid 20s. Of course that was only the guesswork that had to happen before real development began, but out of that guesswork also came the commitment to Chevrolet and the vision of a high volume car.
In hindsight the actual Volt came in at a higher cost, so in hindsight it probably would have been better for GM to have tracked the Volt as a Cadillac, or at least a Buick, because the $40K price would have been more reasonable comparatively, and perhaps because the customers coming in the door would find the price to be more what they were expecting.
So Chevy Volt is, right now, a bit of an odd mixture of the Chevy name, with its present down-market flavor, with the likely higher price of the Volt. It might still work, especially if one associates the Chevy name with higher priced Chevy Trucks or Chevy SUVs, but at this time the price and brand do seem like an awkward combination.
July 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Where will the Fiskers go, geographically? All to CA?
July 5th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
To me the Prius design is brilliant in part because the large amount of space needed by the battery is turned into a styling asset, sort of ungainly but nonetheless distinctive. The Volt tries to look normal, but we know it loses interior and cargo space. The Fisker is beautiful, to me, but also appears “normal”, so my question is the same as yours — where did they find the space for the big battery?
July 5th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Speaking as a 50% Finlander, and having been to the country, I can vouch for their products
kiitos!
July 5th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Deep tunnel, down the middle. (where a drive shaft would be).
Check out the interior pictures:
http://karma.fiskerautomotive.com/gallery/index
You can get some idea of how tall that center tunnel is.
July 5th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
On the Fisker web site, the last “news” item is dated 3/24/09.
Nothing there that says “1st delivery coming soon” or some such.
(I think we now are in the 2nd half of 2009, not that far from 1st half 2010.)
July 5th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
The key here might be the 5,000 units. Below 5,000 units, there are lots and lots of exemptions that can make the car “solvent”. After that, who knows.
Dan.
July 5th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Correction: the Karma too is a 4-seater and it is serial. I still don’t see why it needs a 260 hp engine…
July 5th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
You hit the nail on the head. It is all about the quality/reliability of the battery system. So far no one has put the same effort as Chevy has into their battery systems. The Volt will be hands down the best buy of any of the announced EVs. Lots of people know how to do a V, but the difficult part is in the E. I would love to have Karma, it is gorgeous. But I doubt that I could afford the battery replacement and repair costs alone even I got the car for free.
July 5th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Question answered at 2:17 in this video
Henrik Fisker discusses his new plug-in hybrid Karma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLq2keRz9l0
/1. it’s a performance car 2. doesn’t want to “limp home” 3. doesn’t want the engine running at high rpm’s
July 5th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
I’ll let the patent lawyers argue over that one. And they can have the argument with Ferdinand Porsche’s ghost. And, yeah, I could slap one of these together in my garage using cheap Chinese Li cells, an Onan generator, and a surplus forklift motor. But people have come to expect truly very high quality and reliability in their vehicles. The days when people wanted travel to be an adventure of uncertainty are long gone. But meeting those quality and reliability standards in a total integrated system is MUCH more difficult than slapping a list of off the shelf parts under a pretty skin and paint job. When was the last time you actually worried whether you car would start and actually get you to your destination? I’m old enough I remember doing it a lot. But it doesn’t cut it any more.
July 5th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
“has any independent body documented what Fisker is saying about the Karma?”
***********************************************************
No, but everyone seems to assume that they know what they are doing. On the other hand, if it were the Volt, they surely would question it.
July 5th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Static, you know the devil is in the details. The technology behind the parallel hybrids is nothing revolutionary either. However, no one can match Toyota in execution or cost because of the development time and effort they’ve invested.
I think we all now that anyone can develop a motor and generator. I don’t think anyone, however, can match the research & development resources GM has put behind it — not to mention it’s head start. That difference will show as we start to transition to 2nd generations (in cost and performance), or when the inevitable battery problems start to crop up across models.
July 5th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
“No, but everyone seems to assume that they know what they are doing. On the other hand, if it were the Volt, they surely would question it.”
**************************************
On the other hand, you, me, and every other “American Joe” didn’t loan Fisker $33 billion effing dollars.
July 5th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
The solar recharging option at one half a kilowatt hour a day is about a 100 watt panel. 4.5 to 5.5 average daily hours of sunlight times the rated watts of the panel.
July 5th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
The answer to how Fisker can move much faster than GM is quite simple: Fisker is foregoing the IV stage. It’s also foregoing battery testing. If GM did the same the Volt would be coming off the production line.
As for technology, you’re confusing concepts with implementation. A lot of companies can do single screen mobile phones — that’s easy tech — but Apple holds the patents on the best screens. Same thing will happen here. GM will end up with a big lead in E-REV, and while patents can usually be worked around the work around is often not the optimal solution.
July 5th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
The 130 watt panel ought to give 100 net watts, plenty for ventilation, keeping any vehicle about 35 to 50 degrees cooler when in the sun.
I did a study on 4 panel types, and a 70% average efficiency of the rating (not conversion efficiency) was what I had found due to the various things like angle, partly-cloudy day, hot panel resistance reduction of output, etc.
This would be a really great option for the Volt, possibly inset into the roof. When I saw the Malibu at Henna Chevrolet a few weeks ago, it looked like there could be a way to have a custom GM solar ventilation system for the Volt that would appear to fit right up there. That would be the first option I’d buy right at the signing (party).
If I get to buy a Volt, I would work to coordinate with media here in Austin if I could pre-arrange to buy the first one here in Texas. Maybe there could be a national coordinated signing set of media events with customers who want to work hard to make pre-arrangements with our local dealerships for signing ceremonies. A new era of Voltec for the greater good.
Dan.
July 5th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
When the Karma was first announced I ordered one and put down a deposit (the deposit was just a few thousand dollars now it’s a lot more). At the time the price was $65K. I remember that when I did this Lutz said that the price couldn’t be met and that it would end up being $90-$100K. Prescient. Well, we’re at $87K and I’m out — just too expensive for me. But I don’t feel like I’m getting a peddle bike. It’s just that there are limits to what I’m willing to pay for an extravagant toy. Maybe I’ll regret this when I see a few driving around but at this point I’m willing to wait for the people’s EV — the Volt.
To answer your question, the Karma hasn’t been tested at all, but it will doubtless work. Perhaps it won’t work exactly per spec, but close enough. I think it looks great too, though in truth I find the Tesla Model S more appealing on several fronts. But it won’t be as well tested as the Volt and I’m way over having to overpay for parts and service for “luxury” vehicles. The Volt may be exotic, but, as Mr. Fisker points out — “it’s a Chevy”. He’s saying this in a negative way, but in fact “being a Chevy” strikes me as a good thing when you need something repaired! The cost automatically comes down by a factor of five to ten.
July 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you can’t assume the price is the same. It’s like asking whether you’d prefer a BMW 7 Series or a BMW 3 Series if the price was the same. The price will never be the same because of what it takes to make the cars. Same here. E-REV is designed so you can use a smaller battery pack because the larger pack is too expensive. If a 20 kWh battery pack cost what an ICE and a fuel cost then no one would be making an E-REV in the first place.
July 5th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I don’t think Fisker is putting down Chevy by saying “because it is a chevy”. That is simply the truth. This sports car is designed for the elite, the volt is designed for everyone else… are at least that is the goal.
July 5th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
I don’t think the Fisker is in production yet. It’s scheduled for early 2010 delivery (delayed from late 2009) so it’s not going to be in production so soon. I will agree that Fisker pretty much has all the specs locked in and everything planned, including the factory and the dealer network. They have been relatively opaque on their progress so it’s hard to judge how close they are to production (ie if all safety and durability testing is done yet).
The Model S is still much further off; Tesla doesn’t even have a factory for it yet. But since they got the ATVM loan and Daimler’s backing, I think they can pull it off, but I think it’s clear specs will likely change as it gets nearer to production.
I haven’t been following Fisker much because they aren’t even as transparent as GM on the Volt.
July 5th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Just what is a commoner???
July 5th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Right!!! Otherwise why would it have a faster top speed with both the ICE and electrics running? Stealth mode is ~ 95 mph and when both the ICE and electrics are running it’s 125 mph. Something doesn’t make sense
July 5th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Series Hybrid Performance History:
Renault Elec’road (range extender)/ small engine (21 hp) limited to 60 mph when RE operating, about 34 mpg
(also known as Cleanova ii) , maybe somebody who speaks french can google up some more information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect‘road
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=1917
http://www.calcars.org/KangooRangeExtend.pdf
July 5th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
The real magic number should be 500 — as in 500 cells. The Model S supposedly will use 8000 cells. OMG. That kind of number makes it impossible to monitor each cell individually, and, since you can expect a reasonable number of cell failures, it’s unclear how you can address the issues which arise from these failures. You can’t replace the cells because they’ll be mismatched with the older cells, and even if the pack is modular you’ll end up with too many module failures.
The problem with Tela’s technology is that it rests on very inappropriate batteries. There are reasons why the Volt will have 288 cells and Mitsubishi is using 88 cells. What’s interesting is that the battery is the biggest piece of technology yet so few potential consumers seem to pay it any attention other than to ask “how far can I drive”.
July 5th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
By which time GM will be onto version two of three of Voltec and Fisker will be trying to play catchup, not a healthy place to be IMO.
Put it this way if Fisker was developing a synergy drive how do you think they would go up against Toyota?
July 5th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
If you look at the Fisker web site, you do see a dealer network.
July 5th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Between the Karma and the Model S, I take the model S in a heart beat.
Between the Model S and the Volt, I would take the Volt as the Model S is too pricey for me. 90% of the time the Volt’s AER would suffice for me, the rest I could live with an ICE for the price differential (32,400) but, of course, that’s just me.
July 5th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
..If they get production up and going on november 2010, they have my respect…big time.
———————————————
That is not going to happen. GM is still designing the car. The Volt is to be “introduced” in “2010″. That takes one mostly finished IVer by December 31. Sometime around then GM may start taking orders for Volt, though selected dealers, as done for Camaro. In 2011 production will get up and going, one hopes.
July 5th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Must be the same dielectric power that EESTOR uses then
/Sorry, I can’t help it, every time you mention Unicorns the comparison pops into my head.
July 5th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Renault dropped the series hybrid and has moved on to pure EV.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/renault-abandons-hybrids-hydrogen-in-favor-of-bevs.html
Today’s summary of Series Hybrid Attempts:
1. AC Propulsion: Tried, gave up and moved on to BEV
2. Renault: Tried, gave up and moved on to BEV
3. Homebuilders: I think I’ve seen no more than two examples, they sucked
4. BYD: Tried, evidently first round wasn’t good, still no info
5. GM: no info
6. Fisker: no info
July 5th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
“Its just a generator that powers a electric motor and/or battery…I’m more impressed with the tech in the Blackberry Storm I just bought, or in my wife’s iPhone…now there is some tech, and even that is rendered obsolete every 12 months, how can a gas engine making electricity be represented as proprietary?”
Then you don’t know anything about engineering. It’s EASY to hand-build expensive items. A small team can do it just fine.
Need a battery? No problem, pick the best one. Have a problem with limited number of discharge cycles? No problem, just add the second (third, fourth) battery into the vehicle price. Need a silent gas engine? No problem, just use a powerful one with the low RPM number.
You can easily solve almost anything by throwing enough money at it…
Chevy, on the other hand, has to try and keep price down. Besides, it’ll be a mass-produced vehicle, and that has a whole lot of other issues. You have to use as little manual labor as possible, you have to minimize time required for assembly, etc. And you have to re-tool factories, of course.
Right now, GM can probably hand-build several thousands Volts per year if they are insane enough to do this. And they actually do something like this with integration vehicles (how long did it take to reach this phase, BTW?).
July 5th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Don,
I could not have said it better. There is a universe of unknowns regarding the very high number of cells some BEV’s have.
Serviceability for that extremely high number of cells is possibly going to be a deal killer for lots of BEV’s.
Everyone’s post here has me thinking every single time
“How has GM taken care of this/these problems already”?
or
“No wonder GM has gone to the prismatic cell design”.
Every competitor’s method which is at all different from the Voltec design re-affirms my convictions that GM is so very far ahead of anyone else, it makes the other designs come across as being not just a little bit chancy.
Lyle, the new format really helps us all to learn a lot more, and a lot faster! You rock.
July 5th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
(click to show comment)
July 5th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Yep if you got the right suit and a hot looking car you get the Girls .
Or was that James Bond ?
God Bless
July 5th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
When I was at the Chevy store, I asked how much the extended bumper to bumper warranty was, so that I could crunch the numbers down.
A Volt at $42,000 (with 100mo/100k bumper to bumper extended warranty). Less $12,000 when I “in and out”/ “pass through” my ‘05 Element sale (for a customer waiting for it already), and save a bit of tax, and, less a local incentive which I believe will be there for the Volt at $5k, has a monthly payment at $500. But also subtract the $200 a month I won’t be paying for gas, oil, and other maintenance, and I essentially have a $300 monthly payment. (NOT including the $7500 tax rebate, WHICH I HOPE WILL BE ASSIGNABLE).
I am already paying $348 now for the Element (15 more payments).
Affording a Volt may not be as difficult if you just crunch the numbers and start working on your plan right now. Just keep crunching the numbers like I do, and it more likely will work out when it is time.
July 5th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Statik said in part:
…I’m more impressed with the tech in the Blackberry Storm I just bought, or in my wife’s iPhone…now there is some tech, and even that is rendered obsolete every 12 months, how can a gas engine making electricity be represented as proprietary?
Yeah, but what kind of mileage does she get on that Iphone (g)?
Be well,
Tagamet
July 5th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Tesla, Volt, Fisker, Aptera, BYD , Think, GEM, Phoenix, ZENN, Smart, Miles, MiEV, R1e, Mini Cooper, F700 Mercedes, Nissan, Riva, Tango.
The 100 year run of piston engine dominance is being challenged. The scale has tipped and momentum is building.
=D~
July 5th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Yawn ….. another millionaires “Toy Story”.
No impact for the average american.
Lyle, your Anesthesiologists income is showing.
Though interesting technically, I’d really like to see the non Volt stories focus on “over the horizon” vehicles and their technologies that have a decent shot at coming in under $30,000 per copy.
Or how about restarting the debate of why we allow motorcycles nearly everywhere but won’t allow Japanese Kei cars (660cc) on any street ? I think this country needs to take a hard look at the issue. Why not permit them on streets with 45 MPH speed limits and under ?
Hell, I’d even be willing to wear a helmet while driving one !
July 5th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Anything electronic that you hold in your hand and it makes sound should not nowadays impress anyone all too greatly anymore, it seems to me. Every big company on the planet can subcontract to/compete with IPOD or whoever, plant their name on it, add a few extra features, and all of a sudden, people are waiting in line to buy it in the freezing weather, in the rain, in the 100 degree heat.
All because of the marketing insanity for them to buy it for $600 bucks to “be the first” to have it, yet then, be the first to loose about half the value of it several months later.
An EREV is not an IPOD of course. It is certainly understandable from most peoples perspectives that a Volt might be “just another new (collection of) gizmo’s”.
But there is an entire concert of whole groupings of industries doing incredible things that have never been done before.
There will be many future documentaries shortly following the Voltec releases regarding how GM has changed the World.
The documentaries, it seems to me, will be in theaters as well as on PBS.
It’s not easy to quickly get the public involved in something that they can not hold in their hands, as inventive and obvious the software downloads are for hand held electronics.
But when that day arrives in 16 months, and it is a product designed and built by GM which contains VOLTec, the owners will possibly become instant celebs. (They might need to get prepared for that).
July 5th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
You can sure say that again, Don, regarding the cost effectiveness to service a Chevy. Without that, I would not be here either.
As well, the spectacular battery labs give me the confidence level I need to trust GM’s Voltec products completely.
The rest of them scare the heck out of my budgeting process, and I don’t technically trust any of them whatsoever.
It also worries me greatly that most others here are so very trusting when just any new name pops up that someone “is going into the BEV biz”.
If Toyota indicates; “we no got” (BEV), that is something of a severe warning to us all, and, we had better pay strict attention and respect to Mr. Toyoda’s implied warnings.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
The more that I think about it, the Volt has one thing that no other vehicle on Earth has.
US
Be well,
Tagamet
/I didn’t say that it was necessarily a GOOD thing…..(lol)
July 5th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
NEWSFLASH!!!
Ok. All day, on and off, looking for one. . . . just one…working example of a series hybrid with positive efficiency results
….and I found one!
What is it, you ask?
…..drum roll please. . …..
..
..
The Wrightbus Gemini II HEV Double Decker Bus!
Wrightbus (with Revolve technologies and Ford) has developed a series hybrid bus that more than doubles mpg from 4 to 10mpg!
Optimized Series Hybrid-Electric System Delivers Best Fuel Consumption Results Yet for Double Deck Vehicle
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/revolve-gemini-20090514.html
http://www.hkitalk.net/HKiTalk2/archiver/?tid-394914.html
http://www.travelfootprint.org/news/story/422
/interesting side note, one problem has been excessive noise from the genset (doh!).
//unique application, lots of start and stop, heavy loads, slow speeds
July 5th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Good that you mention Cadillac. Any real comparisons will come if they decide to produce the Converj, which I believe is basically a done deal already. It is probably a matter of timing the market and the announcement.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
300 miles of range absolutely exists today for Tesla’s “design” but it is 300 miles like their 244 miles rating on the Roadster and it is with the newer cell chemistry that they have not tested properly yet. Unfortunately the 244 miles is for 100% use of the battery. For a more resonable 80%, the range isn’t quote there yet but may be in 2012.
But so what. It may solve some psychological barrier but anything above your most extensive daily drive is a waist of money now. What does 300 miles do for you in reality unless you can pop in another 200 miles of energy in 15 minutes or so I don’t see many people paying the extra $ for range they won’t be particularly happy using. Personally, I’m OK to get the 200 miles in 1hr while I eat or rest, but most people won’t find this acceptable. I think the market for 100-160 miles of range will be much greater until the costs come down a bit. Either way it is moot for me since ideal solution would be:
One 80 mile BEV
One 140 mile BEV
One Range Extending Trailer/whole house backup generator
July 5th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
They are billing it as a performance car and it has a performance mode. It needs the larger engine for this performance.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
There are reasons why the Volt will have 288 cells and Mitsubishi is using 88 cells. What’s interesting is that the battery is the biggest piece of technology yet so few potential consumers seem to pay it any attention other than to ask “how far can I drive”.
————————-
Certainly true. One aspect is that we are so unfamiliar with batteries used in this way that we have no intution about what is important to the battery system, so questions remain abstract and indefinite in our minds. That is, we know these are not flashlight batteries, but just what the important differences are ….
July 5th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
…except for tires and flats
July 5th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Corvette ZR1’s look the part, but the Volt does not.
If it had, it could have, but as it doesn’t, it can’t.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Clearly I must be the ‘idiot’ you speak of. I thought that was CGI’d on Letterman, lol. And the unveiling was a Lucasfilm production.
—-
The project is totally air still at this point. If the project was building a concept car that looks like it is a street legal vehicle…and not actually selling cars to the public for a profit, I’d say great success.
A one-off, unfinished, untested, no seat belt, no air bag, cobbled together product that no one but employees are allowed to drive is jejuene to any type of production product…that is about as far away from a saleable product to the public as you can get.
There is nothing behind it, no benchmarks, no tooling, no factory, no mules, no testing, no profit and loss analysis. Just a show car to get deposits and government loans.
There is no substance…In the exact same way the Volt was air in January of 2007. Sure there was a hunk of metal on display, rolling around for people to look at…but now we are getting around to real production on the Volt, the car is zero like it was, and no where near the price. That is why I say the Karma is real, and Model S is not.
A press release is all we have to look to…the specs, the AER and the price touted by Tesla is meaningless at this point. The Fisker is in lock down, fully mapped/tested, and shortly to start production in a real factory you can see, using real sourced parts and machines for production.
The Tesla Model S has about as much street cred as the Cadillac Converj at this moment, it is all show.
Sure it will exist someday, but I guarantee you it won’t be the car you see today, with those specs, at the end of 2011,with a 45 min quick charge option and a 5 minute battery swap out…in the same way as the Model S is no longer a E-REV and built in a plant in New Mexico starting in 2007, remember those days? You know why it isn’t any of those things anymore today? Because words are meaningless, and that is my point.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Yes, deep tunnel, down the middle, just as you said.
Beautiful car, but not great for cuddling up.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
I agree Don.
I’m very much not a fan of Tesla’s solution to electric storage. I can’t even imagine trying to manage 8,000 cells, and what the fallout is from that down the road. This is a short term band-aid solution, rather than a taking their time and building/sourcing a long term product.
I’d love to be able to look 5 years into the future and check in on the first 600 Roadster’s, and their original pack status.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
The apple iphone is quite an achievement. No. It hasn’t changed the world the way we hope that electric cars will, but it has sparked the biggest (actually, the only) tech growth story we have going right now. It basically revolutionized the cell phone and preexisting smart phone industry. And it’s made Apple a lot of money.
And for all the competitors trying–I don’t think we’ll see an “iphone killer” any time soon.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
For me, 300 miles would cover most day/weekend trips. And that’s worth something to me. Not having to rent a car every time I want to go on a day trip, or visit my friends in NJ.
But, more importantly, 300 miles would mean a built-in margin of safety. Even if my daily driving needs were only, say, 40 miles, this way, I could run some extra errands, go home, blow a fuse (or develop some other problem that wouldn’t let me plug in), and still be able to get to work the next day.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Oh, I agree. My point was that if GM wanted the Volt to be a “luxury exception,” in order to make up for not starting with the converj, they could do it. The chevy name in an of itself wouldn’t stop them.
But I don’t think GM does. I think they intend the volt to eventually be a $25,000 car.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
______________________________________________________
Statik Said:
“…If the specs are as you laid them out there in the real word? Hands down, no contest…the Model S…”
—–
I’d also pick the Model S.
______________________________________________________
July 6th, 2009 at 12:42 am
For people with short drives and commutes that is true. For anyone with longer drives and commutes, you get to go 40 miles and then the most finicky and maintenance hungry parts of the propulsion system take over.
July 6th, 2009 at 12:45 am
I never have liked the karma. I think it’s the front grill, just looks too creepy to me. Swap that out and… I still won’t buy one. That’s well over a year’s salary for me. I couldn’t buy a door off that thing. Nice concept though
July 6th, 2009 at 1:35 am
Uh-oh, we’re due for a political thread tomorrow. The bankruptcy judge approved the GM 363 asset sale:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/business/06auto.html?_r=1&hp
July 6th, 2009 at 3:04 am
Isn’t Fisker really all about their biz model–a design house that does contract manufacturing? The power supply is just a detail, in their case.
July 6th, 2009 at 6:10 am
Jim I is correct. This care is absolutely beautiful.
I would own this over the Tesla.
But since I am not going to pay that much for car, the Volt will do nicely.
July 6th, 2009 at 6:25 am
Yeah, DonC I just saw that this morning (early). More numbers crunching/discussion. I’d kinda just like to see how the current level of Volt performs – especially that transition to extended mode (but that’s just me).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 6th, 2009 at 6:35 am
I’m with you, Tag. More Volt IV news, but I’m sure the judges approval will be one of if not the only topic topic today.
July 6th, 2009 at 6:39 am
I’m not informed enough in finance to contribute anything, but it sounds like GM is selling it’s “Bad assets” to a govt entity.
Argh.
Be well (and patient)
Tagamet
July 6th, 2009 at 7:00 am
I’m sure there will be plenty of people that feel the same way you do but I think most people will come to realize (probably when they are staring at the $10-20k difference in price) that 300 miles of range does not add enough practical value. When you drive more than 150 miles, your often driving more than 300 too. Also, 300 miles will take about 75KWh from the outlet. A 120V 20A circuit, 80%; it will take 36hrs to fully recharge or recharge about 19KWh in 10hrs to get about 80 miles. Sure, you can charge more with higher power plug-in stations but not enough anytime soon to practically drive much further than 300 miles. Plus a 300 mile BEV will be dragging an extra 400-500lbs ALL of the time.
EREV, Batter swap, <160miles BEV + rental, <160miles BEV + generator trailer are all technically practical solutions now. They will all be a lot less $ and more efficient than 300 mile BEV until batteries get 1/4 the specific energy and 1/4 the cost that they are today.
July 6th, 2009 at 7:12 am
Facts and evidence?
July 6th, 2009 at 8:13 am
Not so much,
They were testing of multiple prototypes (and pack expectations) on May 14, 2008, so Fisker was well past the stage GM is at now, well OVER a year ago, so they have had more time in the testing stage than GM has days left on the calendar before they have to go into lockdown for a production goal of november 2010 :
—
“Prototype models of the Fisker Karma plug-in hybrid have exceeded performance expectations in early testing, the companies behind the car said Tuesday.
Fisker Automotive and Quantum Technologies, both located in Irvine, Calif., said that three Karma prototypes have been built and are undergoing electric-powertrain testing at an undisclosed Southern California track that appears to be a leased test site at the former El Toro Marine Corps Air Station.”
The companies said Tuesday that preliminary tests of the lithium-ion battery pack that stores power for the Karma shows it has a life expectancy of more than 10 years.
The companies also said Tuesday that they are fine-tuning the software that controls the battery management system, designing crash-test simulations, and, over the next few months will be conducting” further validation and certification on the vehicles.”
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2008/05/fisker-claims-promising-early-test-results-for-karma.html
July 6th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Way too much.
July 6th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Exactly my point Laura, there is no ‘killer app’ in the EV business.
A lot would profess GM is doint ‘it’ right, and that Voltec is the future, etc. But no one can exactly express just want in particular that GM is doing through Voltec that will render competition obsolete. What is their ‘killer app’?
GM is just trying to get a car to market here, there is nothing out there to even benchmark against. How can you say that the first attempt at something out of the gate will even be a success at this stage, let alone dominate the landscape for the forseeable future?
July 6th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Dan Petit said:
“There will be many future documentaries shortly following the Voltec releases regarding how GM has changed the World.
The documentaries, it seems to me, will be in theaters as well as on PBS.
But when that day arrives in 16 months, and it is a product designed and built by GM which contains VOLTec, the owners will possibly become instant celebs. (They might need to get prepared for that).”
————-
Be careful…a little bit of your crazy is showing.
July 6th, 2009 at 8:56 am
As everyone knows, I’m with you here RB. I don’t believe there is going to be any Volts out for sale to the public in november of 2010. The only person that ‘might’ have a shot at owning a Volt in 2010 around here, is Lyle. That is why I would give ‘big time’ respect if they could get it done…like huge, skyscraper sized respect.
/time will tell, I’m sure someone might mention it to me if I’m wrong, lol
July 6th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Well, I’m not an engineer, so I don’t know what they can patent. I’m just hoping that all the development time that GM is putting in will enable them to keep a lead in building EREVs. The same way the iphone is still the best phone on the market (IMHO), even without the app store.
I do think that an EREV is the best model out there for reducing gasoline usage. Unless and until battery costs fall to the point where a 300 mile range is feasable in real world driving, and the charge time is overnight, and you can plug in away from home–I would much rather have an EREV.
July 6th, 2009 at 10:08 am
I’m calling you out on this one…you totally made all that up. The price, the deposit structure on the Karma…and the fact you ever put a deposit on one.
—–
It was $80,000 on day one when they announced it at the 2008 NAIAS autoshow. It was increased to $87,900 to suck up the rebate (like everyone else did) It was never $65,000…ever.
http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/Detroit2008/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=5895877
As for the deposits, they started taking them that same day at the autoshow, it was $1,000 down to get on the list for early production, $5,000 for the early premium numbered edition…you’d think you would have remembered the numbers/specs if you really paid it out.
You said you paid, “a few thousand dollars,” well, it is still only $5,000 today (they moved it from $1,000 to $5,000 Jan 1, 2009). You getting your ‘facts’ confused with the Karma S (which is $25,000). If you ‘had’ paid more than $1,000 early in 2008, you would have been getting that premium edition (which was also a premium esdition at100K, not 65K)
As to you ever putting down a deposit….not only had you never mentioned that in 1,000+ threads (which seems very unlikely to start out with), lets just have a ‘looksie’ at some old threads from you:
DonC said:
April 9th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
“Personally I’m really liking the Fisker Karma. Probably not enough to put out 5K to reserve one or the 90K to buy one, but it looks like a sweet ride, and the fact it’s made by the same factory that is turning out Porshes does suggest it will be well made.”
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/09/gm-to-build-2-mode-hybrid-cadillac-srx/
DonC said:
April 30th, 2009 at 11:11 am
“I likewise have no interest in the Model S. Given the price ($57,500) and technology of batteries today it doesn’t make any sense. If I were willing to spend that much on a second “toy” car — which I’m not because I’m cheap — I’d rather get a Fisker Karma. Cooler inside and out, its E-REV technology makes it more practical. ”
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/30/saturn-may-be-dead-but-gms-2-mode-plug-in-hybrid-program-lives-on/
DonC said:
December 10th, 2008 at 12:58 am
“As for Statik’s question of which car to buy: I look at this car and think I’d just as soon have a Karma. Then I look at the price of the Karma and think the responsible choice is the Volt.”
http://gm-volt.com/2008/12/09/tesla-ceo-prices-the-model-s-electric-sedan-at-57499/
July 6th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Statik… so how much of your DNA is pit bull anyways??????
July 6th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Good question, probably whatever part isn’t already taken up with jackass.
(=
July 6th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Hi all – Russell Datz here, spokesperson for Fisker Automotive. Henrik’s comment about the Volt being “a Chevy” was in fact intended to point out the differences in target market, not that Chevy or Volt are in any way substandard. The Karma will compete with luxury vehicles like the BMW 7-Series, Mercedes CLS and Audi A8, which are all similarly priced. At that level, the Karma is a bargain ($80,400 after $7,500 gov’t tax credit) considering buyers will get PHEV technology, very unique features, break-out styling and more exclusivity than anything else in the class. It’s no secret GM’s 2.0L Ecotec engine was selected because it is the best engine in the world for the application. Hope this clears things up.
July 6th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Good thought. So maybe that’s the game plan? Gin up enough publicity and sell it to one of the majors? They can’t possibly be serious about actually surviving as a car manufacturer. I kept trying to imagine what they are up to. An IPO? Nah, nobody’s buying that, right?
Next case. LJGTVWOTR!!
July 6th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Got that right!
July 6th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Us.
aka “The Great Unwashed”.
LOL.
July 6th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
HowDee Russell,
Good to see you lurking about the forums, or at least being directed here(?). Exotics must be your thing? Panoz, Lotus, now Fisker. I think maybe you had something to do with the Esperante? I only remember because they (Panoz) actually own a track near me (Mosport) and host the American Le Mans series, and they (you?) were flogging it at the time…long time ago, I could be wrong.
I wonder if you find similarities between Fisker and Panoz? They seem to both steered by the will of a individual, very close to the product…rather than afar, by committee like Lotus.
July 6th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I agree. I’m sure as !@#$%^ not buying one.
July 6th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
We rode the GM hybrid shuttle busses at Yosemite earlier this year. From outside they are a lot quieter than their predecessors. That’s really nice as you don’t hear the diesels droning around the Valley at 10 PM. From inside thay are pretty noisy. The “range extender seems to run pretty much flat out all the time, which I guess makes sense, if you think about it. Hopefully, the mileage and emissions are better.
July 6th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Sorry, but I don’t see anything on that list that gives me very much confidence that “the scale has tipped”.
July 6th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I get it. I’m not the target market. Believe it or not, I knew it all along! Where’s my Chevy?
LJGTVWOTR!!
July 6th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
ooopsie. . .
July 6th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Great report Lyle. Too bad Henrik Fisker doesn’t have as much style as his car.
July 6th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
I’m pretty sure its a 4-seater. Assuming that’s why there’s 4 doors.
July 6th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
I think I’ll have to call you out for calling me out. LOL There is something called projection, where you ascribe motives to other people that are in fact your own. I have no way of knowing if this is the case, but there is a pattern on your part that suggests this is going on here.
For example. let’s examine the different interpretations we give to what Bob Lutz says. When Lutz was giving interviews, sometimes he’d give a number off the top of his head. Then he’s give a different number later. You always interpreted this as being inconsistent and misleading. I’ve argued with you that he was just giving a ballpark number and it’s no big deal or, in some instances, that you’re misconstruing what he in fact said.
Seems like this is what we have here. You seem to think it’s a big deal that I remember that the Fisker deposit as being “a few thousand dollars” when it was one thousand. I don’t. My point was that it wasn’t as much as it is now, which is true. I just didn’t remember the number exactly. I’m sure my wife would have done better — she pays much more attention to these things than I do.
As for the price, my recollection is that it was $67K. That may be wrong or I may know more about trim levels than you do. Finally, the fact that at one point I said I liked he Karma better and now I’ve said I like the Model S better isn’t, as you suggest, a lie. I just changed my mind. And guess what, I may go change it again, though I don’t see anything untoward about doing that.
The big issue, which I fear you’ve missed, is that at this point I’d rather have a Volt than a Karma. There are a couple of reasons for this. First is that I’m over luxury cars — I’m finding less expensive cars to be “cooler” — and driving an EV Chevy would definitely be reverse chic (this is actually a very interesting because I see this as a trend). Second is that I find it hard to be mindlessly extravagant even if it doesn’t really matter — I just think that there are a lot of people I could help with the $40K price differential. Third is that I think the Volt will be a better and more reliable vehicle which will be easier to maintain.
July 6th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
You probably saw this on the new thread already, but the sale to the government is the good assets for NGMC. The bad assets will rot in bankruptcy and probably be bought off or liquidated. Maybe a “bad” asset will be their Nummi interest and Tesla could “cheaply” take advantage of that to produce the Model S and learn something from Toyota about mass producing cars in the process.
July 6th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Yeah, Koz. I saw that I got it backward (not unusual for me). I’m beginning to think that “Bad Assets” SHOULD be an oxymoron….
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR**********NPNS
/thanks for watching out for me (g)
July 6th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Funny this comes up now but I’ve never seen any mention of what could be expected from the bad assets as far as the stakeholders are concerned. We’ve seen tons of talk about what their positions will be in the New GM, and lots of opinions about how the bondholders have been railroaded (which they were to some degree) into a lesser position than the UAW. The final plan looks like they have the opportunity to own more of the company than the UAW through warants. I assume the bondholders are first in line for any cash left after disposition of the Bad GM parts. I wonder what all this means for Pontiac, Hummer, etc. in the interim. Does Pontiac stop production when this is finalized? Whose paying their bills, etc.
July 6th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
I, ahem, suspect that Statik knows about that (given that it’s in the universe of all things fiscal). But you’re right, I haven’t seen this addressed (though I think the bond holders will get bupkiss)
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 6th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Noel,
Your Chevy is the one parked right behind mine (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 6th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
N. Riley,
They DID try to explain the remark – up a few posts.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
July 6th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Yupe, your right Don, I totally ‘projected’ on you there. You didn’t misrepresent the facts about Fisker or yourself at all.
/people can decide for themselves
I’ll catch you on the next one.
July 6th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Why do these cars both throw out the transmission. A 150ft-lb torque motor puts out 50% more power at any speed up to 80 if top speed is 80 instead of 120. I’d rather see a 0-60 time of 4 sec in the 0-80 gear shiftable to a 0-120 gear, or just single speed of 0-90. A 2-speed tranny is not a technical challenge!
As for the Volt vs Karma, you can’t really compare a 400 HP true sports car to a 150 HP sedan, but if economy is much better with the Volt that will further define two totally different markets, like the Accord Hybrid vs Prius. The Accord gave performance with no improved economy and bombed as a product.
Dr. Mark
July 9th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
OMG
July 9th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Dang it, get with the program
July 9th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
It actually seems to be quite an unexpected technical challenge. You would think as long as transmissions have been made for ICE’s it would be a no brainer.
But with instantaneous maximum torque, no flywheel, no wind up, no buffering or delay whatsoever, just bam, full power — it turns out to be a serious challenge to make them last. The high power and instant torque of high performance electrics just tears ‘em up.
Avoiding the added cost, complexity and lowered efficiency they’ve been as you say, throwing out the transmission, for a single speed reduction gear.
July 20th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Has anyone seen this site for GM car and truck parts ?