AND 
Toyota Aggressively Patent Protects Prius, GM Doing Same With Volt
We often discuss the Toyota Prius here though the car strictly shouldn’t be compared to the Volt which is truly in another category altogether. The Prius is worth mentioning primarily because comparisons are inevitable and more more so because GM product czar Bob Lutz has openly admitted the Volt program was begun in an effort to leap-frog the Prius after it garnered significant sales and good will for Toyota.
Toyota has been working hard to ensure the Prius is not only successful, but that it cannot be copied. The company has filed for over 2000 patents on the vehicle’s technology, over half of which are found in the current third generation car.
It appears to be Toyota’s intention to make the car’s technology so compelling, insulated, and so copy-protected that other automakers have no choice but to license the technology from them rather than “grow their own” through the legal minefield of Prius patents.
“Our system is the best technology for hybrids to get the best carbon dioxide emissions and best fuel economy. [Rivals] will not be able to compete,” said Gouichiro Kuriyama, a manager in Toyota’s product planning division.
Indeed the mild Honda Insight does not compete with the Prius’ engineering design, and Ford though designing its hybrids 100% in-house has agreed to cross license certain elements with Toyota for legal protection.
Enter the Volt.
The Chevy Volt is based on an entirely different engineering architecture, operating purely on electric drive and at least 80% on electricity from the grid. There is little doubt to this writer that the many benefits of electricity as fuel and electric drive as propulsion will quickly antiquate the Prius’ hybrid system.
You can bet GM is working to protect its future in this regard as well.
“GM has been aggressive in protecting what we believe to be competitive technology of the Voltec platform as it relates to battery, engineering, and powertrain.” says GM spokesperson Rob Peterson. “The Volt’s a game changer. We’re taking all the steps necessary to protect our intellectual property rights.” He notes that not all Voltec patents GM has filed for are finalized yet, and there may be more, but like the car remain a work in progress.
So if Voltec takes off and HSD fades away GM just might find itself with the competitive advantage after all, and Lutz would have rectified a seemingly insurmountable disadvantage. We shall see.
Source (WSJ)
236 Responses to “Toyota Aggressively Patent Protects Prius, GM Doing Same With Volt”
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July 2nd, 2009 at 6:11 am
Toyota only has to worry about Ford’s hybrid – not GM’s. Since Toyota is jumping to EV’s and FCV’s, and GM is aiming at EREV’s and PFCEV’s, there still is no conflict.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:20 am
GM has already developed the 2-mode system, the mild BAS hybrid (which will get better with BAS+ and Li-Ion batteries) and now has Voltec. They will not have a need for the Toymota technology.
With the Volt comes a whole new set of patents; electric drive, range extender, battery configuration, and especially battery management techniques and software. Toymota still insists that battery technology is not ready for automobile applications, and this is where GM can take the technological lead.
The next decade in the automotive world will be very interesting to watch.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:30 am
I wonder if any of those patents are written around those expensive, poorly designed headlights on the Prius – just the latest quality gaffe in what seems like a never-ending avalanche of F-ups by the vaunted Toyota cabal. Too bad the press considers Toyota quality problems off limits !
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:37 am
So if Voltec takes off and HSD fades away GM just might find itself with the competitive advantage after all
—————————————————————-
A more optimisic way to think about Voltec is to picture it opening up a new market to a different and larger portion of the car-buying public. That is, sell Voltec to the 95% rather than the 5%. To restrict one’s focus to otherwise Prius buyers is too limiting.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:37 am
I find it ironic that Toyota, so long credited as a company that takes the long view, is digging in to support and defend a hybrid technology that is fated to be second rate in the era of ER-EVs.
Yes, they may one day move to a plug-in Prius, but the sheer complexity of their HSD — while truly being a woderful engineering acheivement — will always be an extra weight on their manufacturing process and their bottom line.
Let’s say they eventually do offer a plug-in Prius: Once consumers come to expect 40 miles of electric-only miles, Toyota will face the Hobson’s choice of either sticking with an inferior product (because of its limited electric-only range) or of beefing up the car’s battery pack, which raises its cost to build. At that point, Toyota is bearing the cost of both of a Volt-capable battery and the complex HSD system. The Volt will be simpler to build. And even as the cost of battery packs declines, GM will always have this edge.
My guess: Toyota will stick with HSD (albeit eventually with a plug-in) until the day that EVs are feasible/acceptable/affordable to the mass market.
In the meantime, I expect that many other OEMs will beat a path to GM’s door to license the Voltec technology.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:38 am
Let Toyota file, file, file away as many patents as they wish. They are still flogging a dead horse.
Grandstand the filings with strong warnings as they may, they have gotten as far as possible with that ancient technology.
It still gets 100% of its energy from gasoline. Not further patentable.
They are currently loosing the battle due to long-term repairability catastrophic costs ranging from $4000 for a battery that goes only two blocks AER, to, a complete total vehicular devaluation when the SHD transaxle becomes severely damaged from lack of software protections when the 12 volt battery goes completely dead. This end of the catastrophic cost relates to a $14,900 resell value going down to “We’ll give you $1500 for it on a trade-in for a new Prius”.
Toyota is bluffing and posturing and huffing and puffing, as they know their time has expired with the value of anything they wish to patent HSD.
In addition, patent all they may, but when you have the spectacular Battery Labs that GM has, and, you are testing 155 different battery chemistries, accelerating the research as they can, statements regarding HSD become obviously known for the 15 year old obsolete facts that they are. And, silly ones at that.
Toyota knows it is now essentially without a horse to ride in the competitive race, where GM’s “thorough-bred” technology is nearing the finish line. The remaining OEM’s are still somewhere around the starting gate (who knows where) , and apparently are not showing indications as to which direction to go.
Gentlemen, start your EREV’s
Have a productive day.
Dan.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:41 am
BillR writes, “GM has already developed the 2-mode system, the mild BAS hybrid (which will get better with BAS+ and Li-Ion batteries) and now has Voltec.”
GM sold 1454 units of 8 models of hybrids last month. The ones that perform are grossly overpriced and aimed at markets that are uninterested in fuel economy. The ones that don’t perform are also grossly overpriced and don’t offer the value of the competition.
GM’s current programs are all failures. If you are a fan of the Volt, don’t point out GM’s history and connect any dots to the Volt because their history suggests nothing but Epic Fail.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:43 am
“Our system is the best technology for hybrids to get the best carbon dioxide emissions and best fuel economy. [Rivals] will not be able to compete,”
What a crock of _____.
This technology is good but it will be left in the dust pile of history soon. Rivals will be able to compete and win.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:43 am
Yea, verily.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:45 am
Both companies are big boys and can take care of themselves. Patents are there to protect the investment of the inventor. Both companies are going to patents everything that they can. I would find it very surprising if they didn’t.
Cross licensing is what makes the business world go ’round. If GM needs a technology that Toyota has, there is an almost certainty that Toyota needs a technology that GM has. Often cross licensing often happens without any money changing hands.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:45 am
Charlie, you truly have displaced Statik as our resident curmudgeon.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:47 am
This story has been picked up over on TTAC.COM. Michael Karesh reported this:
“I checked responses to TrueDelta’s Car Reliability Survey for any additional information they might provide. Quite a few owners have reported this problem, yet the Prius still has among the lowest repair frequencies. In all but one case, replacing the bulb seems to fix the problem. Non-OEM bulbs can be purchased on eBay for $90 per pair.”
There are other manufacturers who charge very high prices, by the way, for headlights. A friend needed a headlight adjustment on his Benz that was over $1K.
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:01 am
That’s what this is all about Toy would like to trade anything for Voltec.
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:30 am
/grumble, grumble
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:33 am
Prius headlamp troubles could dim Toyota brand’s reputation
Lawsuit, online complaints come as automaker launches new model
Jean Halliday
Advertising Age
June 30, 2009 – 1:57 pm ET
DETROIT — Amid the launch of the third-generation Prius hybrid, Toyota Motor Corp. is taking a beating online and in court by owners who charge that some older models of the popular car have faulty headlights that can cost more than $1,000 to replace.
Owners have complained to federal safety officials and in online chats that Prius’ upgraded optional lights, known as high-intensity discharge headlamps, have a tendency to fail. U.S. federal safety officials started looking into the matter in late April, and a lawsuit was filed last month against Toyota on behalf of Prius owners. The suit called the situation “a dangerous but undisclosed safety defect.”
The complaints began online as early as August 2006, according to a scan of chat rooms and owner forums by Advertising Age, an affiliate of Automotive News. Owners are upset that their warranties don’t cover the HID bulbs, which can cost between $300 and $1,800 — with labor — to replace all or part of the light system.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090630/ANA08/906309987/1186/ANA02#ixzz0K6YYVXRs&D
This on the heels of the Tundra debacle – frames rusting to the point of collapsing as they are raised on a hoist. OOOOHHH ! What a feeling !
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:38 am
Wow, a lot of misplaced heat here for Toyota I think. They are merely putting a fence around their cash cow, I really don’t see the problem.
We can talk all day long about whether of not we think HSD and the Prius has a long term future, but the fact is, its time is now and it is real…and looks to stay that way for at least another 4-5 years. They make about 2K a copy and are going to sell around 600,000 of them this year, thats 1.2 billion in profit off of 1 car.
So yeah, they are going to talk up the Prius, and minimize any competition or alternative platform, I wouldn’t expect anything less from GM if it was the other way around.
I just don’t understand the constant knocking of the Prius, or anything else trying to get into the EV segment. The Prius has achieved a lot, and they have made all the other car makers up their game when it comes to fuel efficiency. History will remember it fondly. Why does it have to be villainized here?
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:50 am
FME III,
Thank you for the praise but I just hit the high points. You should look to statik for your in-depth reality checks.
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:52 am
(click to show comment)
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:54 am
Dan Petit writes, “Let Toyota file, file, file away as many patents as they wish. They are still flogging a dead horse.”
They sold 12K of those dead horses this month. At a profit.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:02 am
As for GM filing up a storm at the patent office. I expect no less of them…or anyone else trying to get into this market.
These days, you have to protect what is yours…otherwise when your car ends up at the “Vehicle Assessment and Benchmarking Activity Center” and gets reverse engineered you are leaving yourself wide open.
(Although, for the most part, I think most of these patents just stop other companies from making duplicates of what you did, their engineers make a little modification to your patent, and ‘poof,’ a legal nightmare to attempt to defend against)
—
Sidenote: Of more interest to me (and I think to this community very soon), will be how the GM-Chrysler 40 mile EREV/RE-EV battle shakes out. I mean, if two projects could be more alike in goals and a finished product…I don’t know what it would be (other than the fact Chrylser is working the D-Segment as opposed to small passenger car architecture)
It appears as though they both will be fully funded by the DoE very soon. Once that happens, Chrysler will have to start doing the ‘public access/dog and pony show’ thing that GM has voluntarily done all along…and we should get healthy debate here, (along with a little one-upmanship competition between the two), which I look forward to.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:10 am
Any lawyers here know how patents work internationally? What prevents foreign countries (think China) from reverse engineering the Volt and using all of the technology?
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:10 am
[...]Wow, a lot of misplaced heat here for Toyota I think[...]
Totally agree with you, Statik.
Reality pushes some people to admit facts that overcomes personal convictions…
Anyway, gm-volt is a place for americans. Seems that for any topic relaying stuff from abroad, good or not, is condamned to be digested in a patriotical-national-like-subjectiveness.
I really wish the Volt could be on market asap, as we could finally cut off all those numbers/comparisons asumptions. At the time of writing this, I see Toyota advertising its 3rd generation Prius, with some 3.9 l/100km… less than half my Chrysler Stratus gas consumption…
Don’t forget to thank Toyota for it’s “prissie”. If they weren’t there atm, we would still be discussing about the prototype design of the Volt…
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:16 am
Chrysler and Ford should surrender the EREV market to GM and it’s Chinese rivals. Chrysler and Ford should continue to refine small lightweight pure EV cars. The obvious goal is at least 200 miles per charge under the most harsh condition. Then to follow it up with providing charging stations at all dealerships. Chrysler and Ford will offer a free “quick” charge for the benefit of running a diagnostic.
We’re not far from being there.
=D~
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:17 am
Often Discuss the Prius here. As of late there has been more news on the Prius from you than there has been about the VOLT. Please don’t tell me your going to add a picture of the Prius next to the Volt Picture. I don’t mind the occasional story on the Prius or learning things about other vehicles, but I thought our primary focus here is the VOLT. Go Volt.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:19 am
complexity?.. Toyotas HSD is simple and rugged, a brilliant engineering achievement. A simple, cheap geared device, two motors/generators and two controllers replaces a complex and delicate CVT transmission. GM achieves the same thing with two motors/generators, two controllers and a differential gear set. It is suspected the Prius will still get better highway mileage than the Volt. The Volt should get better city “mileage”.
Toyota has not chosen to presently implement an EREV, but they could easily (and quickly) do so with their existing Prius.. just add a bigger battery and change the motors slightly and they could also do all electric driving for some range just like the Volt.
Just because we like the Volt is no reason to disparage Toyota and their tech. Both technologies are equally transitional to pure long range BEV.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:20 am
Wasn’t Michael Karesh that wacky Branch Davidian guy that Janet Reno sentenced to death without a trial ?
You seem awfully defensive this morning, Charlie H ! Smell the end coming ?
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:22 am
FME III, very well stated.
************
Some of us closely follow the Nano-Tech Lithium Cell / Ultracap developments as they come out.
Clearly, the future of the automobile is with an “all electric drivetrain”. It will transition sooner than many expect.
GM’s Voltec Technology is in the drivers seat. BEV’s will also have some acceptance and a place in the market.
The history books will mention Toyota’s HSD, but only as “Transition Technology”. Patenting HSD reminds me of Sony’s Betamax maneuver.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:26 am
Dan, you have some foam on your lips
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:30 am
I don’t even need to blog here anymore. Dan Petit says it all, every time.
Here’s my 2 cents though, anyway: I work in an area that has tons of Priuses. On my daily lunch walk they inevitably pass me on a slow side street short cut through this small town. I am here to tell you that I have never seen one drive by, or accelerate from a stop sign, where the gas engine wasn’t running. I mean, isn’t the thing suppose to run with just the electric motor for the first hundred feet or so, before the gas engine kicks in? I even see them parking at the library I go to and the engine is always on. Those cars must be getting worse mileage than they advertise.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:36 am
Off topic … Consumer reports just blasted the Honda Insight and gave it a do not buy. You can read the article here ….
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/30/i-consumer-reports-i-lambasts-honda-insight-ranks-it-21-out/?icid=webmail|wbml-aol|dl2|link6|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autoblog.com%2F2009%2F06%2F30%2Fi-consumer-reports-i-lambasts-honda-insight-ranks-it-21-out%2F
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:38 am
I totally agree. It IS called GM-VOLT.com for a reason. If we all wanted to read about how “great” the Prius is we’d go to http://www.prius-lovers.com, or whatever. If you’re a Prius lover, don’t take offence. I am a member at Coloradofans.com. Same thing happens over there. Toyota Tacoma lovers have to chime in to say how “superior” their truck is. I guess it’s just what some people like to do to make themselves feel better.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:46 am
Herm, don’t worry – it’s his meds kicking in.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:51 am
Let the anti-consumer reports rants begin…
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:52 am
“…Don’t forget to thank Toyota for it’s “prissie”. If they weren’t there atm, we would still be discussing about the prototype design of the Volt…”
I think Lyle had a small part in that transition.
I do agree that there’s nothing good accomplished by Prius bashing, but you’re going to get that when it’s a home game and the other side’s mascot runs on the field.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:57 am
The big-business battle between auto giants is awesome to watch. The competition pushes each company to out do the other. Cars keep improving. Anybody know if cars of today command a bigger percent of our paycheck than cars of yesteryear?
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:58 am
(click to show comment)
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:59 am
So, Toyota cancelled it’s plug-in Prius? I thought it was going to be leased before the Volt hits the showroom floor. Did these plans change? The last time I heard, they are still going forward with their lithium-ion plug-in technology.
Also, I hope people remember that the Prius is a series-parallel hybrid. That means with a bigger battery it is very similar to the Volt’s architecture.
In fact, if Toyota increased the new Prius’ 60 kW motor with a 110 kW motor and put in a 16 kWh battery pack you would have a direct competitor to the Volt.
So, although the Prius technology seems antiquated, it can easily be upgraded as the market requires.
About the patents, that’s why it’s good to get in early. Then you get all the patents and the barriers to entry are higher for your competition. This is why I want the U.S. to get in early on the green revolution.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:06 am
Are the people that are pointing out some problems with Toyota’s vehicles ready to go tit for tat? Seriously? Come on, all automobiles are complex systems and all have some problems. Shall we start writing the lists?
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:06 am
I agree that the Prius and Volt should not be compared. Other than both being Hybrids they are in totally different categories like Lyle said. The Prius is the undisputed king of sales in the Hybrid space and the Volt is the undisputed loss leader in the same space. The Prius is profitable and the Volt will never be profitable in its entire lifetime (they have already dumped 1.5 billion of taxpayer money on it so far and they will never recoup that much profit). I agree with Lyle, these two vehicles are definitely in totally different categories.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:09 am
Looking out over the competitive landscape, I’d conjecture the Prius will go on to make a lot of money for Toyota for the next four years. My guess is as Prius profit potential begins to drop off, Toyota will begin to sell BEV’s.
In a completely wild but kind of related guess, sometime around 2022 Toyota will launch a still far too expensive for consumers, impractical compared to BEV’s, limited run, hail mary fuel cell car (forget the hype about the 2016 model year) to maintain it’s green media induced halo. They’ll try to pioneer the pathway toward profits a la the Prius, in an attempt to relegate all other clean vehicle technology to second tier status.
In 2000 HSD was leapfrog technology and Toyota will try another leapfrog past Voltecs and BEVs around 2020 with Fuel cells, one full generation later.
Time moves on we’ll see who the new winners are. Place your bets guys,
A Chinese curse is that one have interesting times. Well, we have that in spades! Lwesson – commenting in NUMMI No More: Has GM Said No-Thanks to GM-Branded Prius?
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 am
Wow, Consumer Report blasted a Honda? I thought they only picked on American cars.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 am
Oops, my bad. I thought that it was Charlie’s foam.
Sorry Dan,
Be well,
Tagamet
NPNS
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 am
the software is the critical thing, and it should protected internally in the computer. The serial hybrid stuff was patented back in 1922 so it is probably expired by now.. the batteries and the motors/controllers/electronics are made in some asian factory anyways (probably).
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 am
The Prius is superior. Learn to deal with it dude.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:14 am
Reverse engineer what exactly. The Volt has very little new technologies. It is base on diesel-electric train technology that has been around for decades. Get a clue please.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:16 am
Go GM, protect your engineer’s work. I wonder if they will be so aggressive in China…
Wait, doesn’t the US government own GM in Fascist manner like VW was in the 30s-40s? So the government owns the patents and also has the ability to right the regulations to make the Volt platform the only successful platform?
Good grief this is bad. Roht row raggy.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:16 am
Technically, you have to file a patent in the country you want to hold it in. There is really no such thing as a ‘wordlwide’ patent, if thats what you are asking. You have to actually go file in all 200-odd countries. Realistically, with a product like a 40K electric car, the top 20 markets are more than enough, lol.
Your best way to protect intellectual property across a large spectrum is to file it with WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) which is a agency of the United Nations)…and that covers you for probably 95% of the globe.
For patents, you are looking at filing in specific countries that are likely to infringe on your patent (or that you have the greatest interest in prodecting. Generally, patents have a useful lifespan, then fritter out when the ‘new hotness’ comes around.
Is that any help?
What you normally want to do is ‘buy yourself time,’ in as many places as you want, which means you want to file it to the PCT (Patent Cooperation Treaty) or the Paris Convention (if some of the countries you want to encompass are not signed up to the PCT.
This really doesn’t get you a worldwide anything, but what it does is gives you a 30 month window to select which countries you want to file with (12 months with the Paris convention). (Again, this only applies to the member countries that have signed off to these treaties…but it is a pretty large swath).
BTW, every major country in the world is signed up to the PCT (with the exception of Taiwan and Argentina). The Paris Convention has 173 countries onboard, while the further expanded PCT has 141…and China is onboard with both.
If you care to bore yourself further:
http://www.bitlaw.com/source/treaties/pct.html
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:16 am
My favorite Honda Insight review is Jeremy Clarkson’s…..
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article6294116.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1
I like the part where he talks about the engine……
“It’s worse than the sound of your parachute failing to open. Really, to get an idea of how awful it is, you’d have to sit a dog on a ham slicer.”
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:18 am
So let me get this straight.
1) Toyota currently has the best hybrid on the market.
2) Toyota currently has the most hybrids on the road.
3) Toyota currently makes money on each one.
4) Toyota will have their plug-in Prius on the road before the Volt.
5) Toyota is working on a new BEV design and has experience with the Rav4 not to mention small NEVs (they have a park in Japan where you can even drive them around an indoor track).
Let’s all face the fact that the whole EV / hybrid market depends on the battery. If a great battery comes out everyone will use that and be starting from scratch. If not, the whole market is likely to be very small and slow to grow. Do people think Toyota is really all that far behind? If I were GM I would not bank on that.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:20 am
I’m know your being sarcastic Texas, but just in case someone else takes it literally. Toyota hasn’t cancelled the Plug-In Prius program.
Sidenote: I think Lyle likes to get everyone riled up with these Prius-Volt threads, hehe.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:22 am
They don’t “pick on” American cars, its just that most American cars are total junk and have been since the 1970s. This is a fact. Most Americans recognize this and have moved to the imports as a result. Consumer Reports reviews just reflect what the American consumer has known for a while. Lately, some American cars are getting more favorable reviews but they still have a long long way to go.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:22 am
Yup, businesses act in their own self interest. That’s what they’re supposed to do.
If we don’t like the patent system, we should reform it. If we don’t like businesses, then we could become socialists.
Personally, I’m in favor of reforming the intellectual property policies in the US.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:26 am
In the 60s a Porsche cost about 6k and American cars were $3-4k if my memory serves me right.
A quick search finds the MEDIAN personal income for the 60s was $4k going to $6k in the 70s. Currently it sits at $32k.
I guess that makes the Volt like buying an exotic Italian-German car. Oh wait, that is exactly the case since $46k can get you a sweet BMW.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:39 am
Honda must be late on a payment.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:40 am
“If we don’t like businesses, then we could become socialists”
Hold on, buddy boy! You seem too eager to go the socialist route. How about a less extreme option? If you don’t like businesses, discontinue patronizing those businesses.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:42 am
Thanks. I haven’t said it in a while, but you add a lot of value to this blog.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:44 am
Where are the complaints about China owned Chinese companies being a fascist exercise?
Can a company the pulls in $115 billion be valued at 70 to 80 billion dollars to undo that “fascist” manner?
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:46 am
Even with the changes you suggest, the Prius, as long as it has the Synergy drive, is a parallel hybrid, not a series. The Prius design allows the ICE to directly drive the transmission, something that isn’t possible on the Voltec (not the least of which is the lack of a transmission).
If Toyota changes their design significantly enough, they would be infringing GM’s patents, not the other way around.
Also missing from the discussion (but certainly not from GM’s IP portfolio) is the two-mode hybrid system, where the transmission has been modified with electric drive. It’s a subtle, but distinct, difference in implementation from the Synergy.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:47 am
Let’s say I was a complete Toyota fanboy… GM’s already gone bankrupt and the new GM emerges from bankruptcy (maybe) with the same product line that’s losing ground, the same inability to build a competitive $10K car and the same track record for failure in cost containment and marketing of hybrid tech as the old GM.
If I smell the end coming, would It be the end for anything other than GM?
HID lamps are expensive and are usually found on expensive cars. A similar dealer repair on a BMW or other car would be similarly expensive. The difference with the Prius is that the Prius is reasonably priced, so a pricey headlamp repair is expensive. The stock car comes with inexpensive halogens. Don’t want to repair expensive headlamps? Stick with the halogens.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:51 am
By the way, if “Wasn’t Michael Karesh that wacky Branch Davidian guy…” is illustrative of your command of basic facts and ability and inclination to do the most basic of research, you need more help than I can give you.
Try “David Koresh.” I usually get my facts right, so if I write something that you think is wrong, first check your facts before attempting to correct me. You’ll be less likely to embarass yourself, that way. And, sure, you might catch me napping. It has happened.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:52 am
When the Volt ever gets officially released there will be a new Prius (patent pending) that will pounce on it something fierce. The Volt will be dazed and confused after that and will struggle vailiently to fend off the mighty Prius but to no avail. The redesigned Prius eats Volts for breakfast. Ha Ha.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:54 am
That is an interesting claim (I can’t call it a thesis). Upon looking into the matter a little, your claim seems like unsubstatiated rote propoganda. Ferdinand Porsche owned Volkswagen, no?
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:54 am
Hey Tex … I think the bigger point here is that Toyota is no longer bulletproof or untouchable….. and I’m not sure that they would want to get into any tit-for-tat exchange that you imply would bolster their case. Their all-to-frequent quality problems over the past 3 or 4 years ( google ” Camry engine sludge problems”, for instance ),as well as their legendary “secret warranties” to cover them up, have woken up thousands of consumers to the fact that the “perfect Toyota machine” is indeed a myth, bolstered by an antagonistic US media that desperately wants to hang onto it ( while pissing on the D3 every chance they get ).
Happilly, the internet has taken much of the “editorial power” away from the US media, and given it back to the peeps, where it belongs.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 am
Ahhh – the legendary toyota fanboyz are here ! He doesn’t bother to mention that Consumer Reports has even admitted that they had gotten to the point where they were recommending new toyota rice burners without even TESTING them ! Of course, they have also admitted that the poor toyota quality record over the past 3 or 4 years has led them to cease this practice.
I guess I don’t blame him …. if I were a toyota salesman, I’d try and keep the myth of Toyota alive, as well….
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:01 am
You dropped your beads !
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:03 am
(click to show comment)
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:06 am
Well said on all counts Statik. The Prius is not the enemy, it’s just competition. It does what it was designed to do, and does it well. I have nothing bad to say about it, or Toyota for trying its best to capitalize on it.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:09 am
Nobody complains about Chinese own companies because they are a nurturing influence only. Unlike American owned auto companies like GM where the government is a disruptive influence that tries to unfairly tilt the playing field to their advantage. Remember in China we welcome foreign auto companies with open arms.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:10 am
Charlie, please take a deep breath and relax. If you’d read the posts below you’d have seen:
“I do agree that there’s nothing good accomplished by Prius bashing, but you’re going to get that when it’s a home game and the other side’s mascot runs on the field.”
Be well,
Tagamet
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:12 am
(click to show comment)
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:19 am
Texas wrote:
“Let’s all face the fact that the whole EV / hybrid market depends on the battery. If a great battery comes out everyone will use that and be starting from scratch.”
Bingo. The future is large format primatic cells. GM sees that future and is “charging” towards it. It is critical now for someone to rollout vehicles with all electric drivetrains.
Toyota long ago won the Sprinters Race (getting something to market) with HSD. GM woke up a few years back and has “bet the farm” on the Marathon Race with Voltec.
I suspect Toyota is doing a lot of scrambling in secret that nobody has a clue about.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:24 am
Nah – only sarcasm for you, turd. Work on your comprehension skills.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:25 am
It has been argued that during highway driving the direct parallel connection is more efficient than the ICE-to-generator-to-charger-to-battery-to-motor-controller-to-motor connection. Even the efficiency calculations were performed. So, maybe the Prius’ architecture, which can do both, might be better. I guess we will find out as early as next year.
Imagine a bike that was designed so when you pedal you are connected only up to a generator. That generator charges a battery which powers the bike’s motor. You can naturally sense the efficiency losses, even without doing the calculations. Same idea. If it was more efficient then don’t you think this would be a popular electric bike design? No chain or gears needed. You can more simply change the load on the generator and the speed of the electric motor without all those primitive mechanical parts. Food for thought.
I’m a fan on of the Volt but that does not blind me to the potential of the Prius.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:27 am
It’s getting chilly in here. Feels more like a hockey game than a Volt site. But, it’s fun.
=D~
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:29 am
Without US influence, where would GM be?
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:29 am
Thanks. I was curious because I know of machines my company builds (we’re an OEM), that have been reverse-engineered and built by Chinese companies. They are using the machines themselves in China (as far as I know); not selling them to other companies, but still dishonest in my book.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 am
Referring back to the headline of the post, I sure hope so!
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:36 am
Perhaps you should try “trolling” in a lake instead of here. You might actually catch some fish.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:41 am
55.1 MPG average as of 2,533 miles.
Base price this fall of $21,000.
Plug optional, not required.
Already a common sight on roads.
That is the CONSUMER perspective, which is quite different from the ENTHUSIAST. So what is discussed/debated online really doesn’t equate to much. Volt is in an entirely different category than Prius.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:47 am
Remember in China we welcome foreign auto companies with open arms.
…and two Chinese partners. One “private sector partner” (a good party member) to represent the company in China, and a financial partner aka the Chinese government. Welcome comrades!
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 am
Many of you are putting down China and or other foreign manufacturers. You all must have forgotten that GM “IS” planning on building the Chevy Volt there (China) in 2011. Please read the link I provide below…
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/06/general-motors-reportedly-to-build-chevrolet-volt-in-china-beginning-in-2011.html
Or do as one drunken poster indicates, Google for: GM build volt China
All your arguments seems to be without cause at this point.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:55 am
Hey john, does Toyota make/build those HID lights & controllers?
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:59 am
To expand on grat’s reply, the fundamental difference between Voltec (series) and Synergy drive (parallel) is significant. Toyota can put in a bigger battery for more electric range, but Synergy is still a two input design. For Toyota to have an all electric vehicle, it will have to replace the Synergy technology; or at a minimum, significantly re-engineer it to remove the second input or the transmission all together.
GM can make an all electric vehicle by simply removing the generation components (ICE, Fuel cell, whatever they’re using when the battery/ultracapacitor technology is ready) with only changing the electric drive unit to not accept the second electrical source; the power train stays intact. I’d suspect this is much easier than redesigning or removing the transmission.
I’m not bashing Synergy; I have an Escape Hybrid which is very similar technology. Nor am I bashing Toyota; my wife’s car is a Rav4 and my last car was a Highlander. It’s just if I had to choose, I’d rather have GM’s technology because it’s a more versatile approach. In fact, when I first saw Toyota’s technology on display five years ago, I was quite surprised to find that it, and the just being released Escape Hybrid, were parallel. I had assumed that it was series because that’s how I would have done it (simpler and lighter to combine energy electrically than mechanically). But at the time I also biased by my wanting an electric car, and thought hybrids were more electric in design than they are.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:22 am
Put on your flak jackets, a thread with the words, Prius and Volt in the thread title, means it is a war zone in the comments…sometimes the innocent (like Jason here) are accidently caught in the crossfire.
…its a long day, maybe he can turn that around, (currently -7), I gave him a +1 to even it out. (=
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:23 am
John1701a,
I am shocked and amazed to see you write that.
I agree, two different things. They both have their strength and weakness.
Volt’s strength is the 40 mpc
Volt’s weakness is it’s made by GM (Perception is they make junk)
Toyota strength is their perception of quality and Prius has been on the road for years.
Toyota weakness…..cockiness maybe. Denial maybe.
I wouldn’t be surprised one bit to see them come out with a 40 mpc or more soon after the Volt is out. They are the number one car maker at the moment. I don’t think they get that way by being stupid.
But for me, the Volt is my only choice.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 am
______________________________________________________
statik Said:
“…The Prius has achieved a lot, and they have made all the other car makers up their game when it comes to fuel efficiency. History will remember it fondly. Why does it have to be villainized here?
…
——-
I agree with Statik that the Prius deserves much credit for being an iconic car that has played a major roll in helping ignite the Electric Car Revolution.
Kodus for Toyota. The Toyota Corp. put real skin in the game with the mass production of the Prius before other automakers got serious about the mass production of electric hybrids. There would not be a Chevy Volt starting production in 2010 was it not for the Prius having gone into production 12 years ago.
Having said that, It’s normal, healthy, and just plain fun to pick a favorite and promote the positive attributes of one’s favorite by contrasting it against its competitors. Sort of like PC vs. MAC, Google vs. BING, McDonalds vs. Wendy’s, Boxers vs. Briefs, & Volt vs. Prius.
I for example have much respect for what the Prius has achieved but I’m a Voltec fan eager to point out why I believe the Voltec is better than the Prius….
1) Compared to a Prius, the Chevy Volt will more often run its ICE at peek efficiency therefore the Volt will be more ICE fuel efficient than the Prius.
2) With a Chevy Volt, I can drive to work and back without burning gas. With a Prius, I am forced to burn gas.
3) The Chevy Volt will have a more impressive driving (sporty) performance that the Prius due to the inherent benefits of a Series Setup vs. a Parallel Setup.
…but I still give Prius much credit for its Old-School Parallel Hybrid contributions….lol
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July 2nd, 2009 at 11:34 am
Along the same line, I’ve stopped giving them negative points because they, like comments, are their own “reward”.
JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:38 am
The same place as American Motors, Brush, Stutz, Saxon, Anhut, Chalmers, White, Holley, REO, Page, Dort, Packard, Hudson, Kaiser, Pierce-Arrow, Franklin, Kissel, Jordan, Mckeen, Bell Kelsey, Tilney, Riker, Balzer, Winton, Brush, DuPont, Cord, Studebaker, Nash, Portland, Moon, Diana, Windsor, Haynes, Rauch and Lang, Delorean, Tucker, Cole, Steinmetz, Bricklin*, and of course Plymouth, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Hummer*, Saturn*
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Kung Pow, I really like your chicken, that being said how did you get on here with your nurturing government shutting down your web access? Keep them dumb and in the dark and disperse a little fertilizer, all will be well. In the mean time could you hold off on exporting your lead painted toys and dog killing pet food?
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:48 am
Many of you are putting down China and or other foreign manufacturers. You all must have forgotten that GM “IS” planning on building the Chevy Volt there (China) in 2011.
…And? ….All your arguments seems to be without cause at this point.
Right, thank you?
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:50 am
@john1701a
Dude, can you tell me what size in KW the new beefier electric motors the 2010 Prius has now? Or shoot out a link to the specs?
Does anyone know if the motors MG1 & MG2 can be used as Generators BOTH at the same time? IF so how much in KW can it produce?
I have a Hypothesis on what Toyota can possibly do to EREV the Prius or at least get a 10-20AER. I have a feeling because of the direction they went on the increase in motors as well as ICE they are doing the same thing as I am hypothesising. Othere than the obvious increase in batt pack of course.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:51 am
Toyota’s weakness. They’re winning the game and as such, they can’t afford to rock the boat too much anymore.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:54 am
Bike analogy is wrong. It is too simple.
“Naturally sense” is not working here.
Voltec platform (in theory) allows engine to work in the most efficient mode – always. You get from the fuel as much energy as possible (in any other mode, engine is not so efficient == energy wastes). I can hardly imagine that it is possible to drive at the same speed for a long period of time (and, this speed must be the most efficient for the ICE engine; do you now this speed for Toyota Prius? and what about any other car?).
Also, there are just too many cars outside. I can’t drive with the speed I want/need, I drive with the speed of the traffic.
Second, prius mechanical connection between engine and wheels has much more moving parts then voltec-like connection. Moving parts can break. Electric cable can’t.
Ps. I guess, bicycle design with battery and generator is not popular because of price. Actually, I never saw any.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:56 am
Hey, anybody use IE8? I installed it and now the java applets to reply don’t work for me…..
Sup wit Dat!
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:57 am
Not.
UPDATE: GM denies this report.
But the Volt’s chief spokesperson, Rob Peterson, in an email sent to Green Car Advisor minutes ago, wrote:
“The Chevrolet Volt and Opel Ampera will be produced at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly plant. There are currently no plans to build the Chevrolet Volt outside of the United States at this time.”
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:57 am
How cool is that. Even the Opel will be build in Detroit.
Go GM…
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
______________________________________________________
Lyle Said:
“…There is little doubt to this writer that the many benefits of electricity as fuel and electric drive as propulsion will quickly antiquate the Prius’ hybrid system…”
——
Agreed!
______________________________________________________
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Your very right that you see a lot of duplication of things for use inside China, (regardless of patents/IP or not), they know it is very unlikely there will be reprecussions, and if there are…very little will be gained. Classic case of, ‘it is wrong…but has no consequences, so it is done’ Almost like music downloads here, lol.
It is a very expensive process to attempt to protect something worldwide, your looking at hundreds of thousands in the long run. Thats why you see a lot of companies/people ‘placeholding,’ just buying time until the next step/generation is taken (and then repeating the process)..or just completing the process at home and in major markets they service.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
I have been proven corrected. Thanks nuclearboy.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Guido writes, “Their all-to-frequent quality problems over the past 3 or 4 years ( google ” Camry engine sludge problems”, for instance ),as well as their legendary “secret warranties” to cover them up,”
I’ll bet there’s easily a million victims of DexCool and GM’s crap gaskets and intake manifolds who would have loved “secret warranties” that covered their problems. GM’s strategy, which saved a small amount of cash and lost a lot of customers, was to delay any kind of compensation for about 15 years before agreeing to a pittance. “Here’s $50 for a car you sold long ago, if you still have proof of problem and repair.” And GM baked those problems into a decade of cars, rather than watching spares consumption and dealer problem reports and then switching to better parts after just two years’ of adverse experience. Just two years’ of problems instead of ten years of problems would make a significant difference in GM’s market share today.
By the way:
Guido also writes, “Toyota is no longer bulletproof or untouchable…”
Toyota was never bulletproof or untouchable. They were just determined to build a quality car and they did. GM could have done the same thing but it was never a priority. I doubt that it’s a priority now. If GM had reacted to the levels of quality and durability that Toyota and Honda were putting into their cars in the ’80’s and ’90’s with a like focus on quality and durability, GM would still have dominant market share.
It’s not like the engineers and autoworkers at Toyota and Honda know something the engineers and autoworkers at GM don’t know, it’s just that their management is willing to let them take extra time to find and solve problems before they ruin the customer experience. At Toyota and Honda, keeping a customer is a higher priority than production numbers, cost-cutting and quarterly financial statements.
There’s two ways to fix GM quality… you can either hope that Toyota quality degrades to the same level or you can hope that GM kicks a$$ to get their quality up to Toyota’s level.
If you’re hoping for Toyota to fail, you’re doomed to disappointment.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Warren, we like to repeat ourselves on slow news days. Shall I point out again that to compare the current non plug in Prius with the future plug in Volt is a little dicey? As Tag would say, be well.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I think Bronco is just jerking our chain. At least I hope thats it. He sounds like an old cowboy who thinks his horse is better than an all wheel drive auto traveling in the mountains. Got a hunch he is smarter than that.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
For the “Puma” fans…
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/02/gms-puma-ranked-1-business-blunder-of-2009-w-poll/
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
I may have been wrong about Bronco in my earlier reply.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:16 pm
You sure your not Bronco
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
All good designs have their pluses and minuses, and rarely is one better at everything than all its alternatives. HSD is great for boosting mpg but not very good at providing an EV drive. The planetary gear transmission is efficient but do you really want those gears spinning at high rates powering the car at high speeds? To turn your bicycle example around, if this was such a good idea wouldn’t all BEVs use planetary transmissions?
I don’t know how to say this without coming off as a jerk, and I don’t mean to be, but if you think that you can turn a Prius into an EV with a larger battery you don’t fully understand HSD. In this regard, the idea that you can significantly improve the mpg of the Prius by adding a larger battery has more or less been debunked by the study which showed marginal real world mpg gains when larger Li-ion batteries were installed in the Prius (something like a gain of 2-3 mpg). To some extent this isn’t surprising. If it really worked Toyota would be installing larger batteries.
As for your bicycle example, the point you are missing is that the battery pack allows the rider to pedal at a constant RPM and resistance. Think of it this way, say that as a rider you can easily produce 300 watts by pedaling at 80 RPM at resistance level 7. This is right in your comfort zone and you can do this all day long. On a flat, the watts are considerably more than what you need to maintain your speed, and you can store the excess in a battery. When you come to a hill you continue to pedal at the same rate and your speed is maintained by having the battery provide enough juice to keep you in your comfort zone. The advantage is not that it’s easier on the flats, in fact it’s harder. The advantage is that the system allows you to pedal in a comfort zone which is most efficient for you, which will translate into your going further in less time.
The same thing happens with the Volt. The battery pack allows the engine to run at more efficient points. In a sense this is how Toyota got better highway mileage in the new model Prius — it increased the size of the engine so at higher speeds it could run more efficiently. Overall, while the Prius may get better mileage than the Volt running in extended mode, I wouldn’t expect the difference to be that great. And of course the Volt will get infinitely better mpg than the Prius when running in EV mode.
The real advantage of the Prius in some situations is cost not efficiency. Basically a 16 kWh battery pack just costs a lot more than a 1.6 kWh pack. Now if you’re using the pack fully every day, the larger pack may pay for itself. But if you’re not then you’re paying for kWhs you aren’t using. If, for example, you drive a car five miles a day, then if you drive a Prius you will be using so little gas that it will never make any sense for you to pay a premium for the Volt, despite the fact that driving the Volt won’t use any gas at all. On the other hand, if you drive 60 miles a day then the Volt will make more sense.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I really think Texas is right. A parallel hybrid with a 110kW motor and 18kWh battery should be equivalent to the Voltec drive. When the engine shuts down it needs a brake to keep it from spinning and then the electric motor alone will be driving the wheels. It seems more cost efficient to let a single motor/generator recharge the battery during range extend mode than having a separate generator tied to the ICE.
The real issue here is can a differential gear share energy more efficiently between the motor and battery than a separate generator? If the answer is “no” then it is probably because the ICE is better able to run it its “sweet spot” RPMs with a separate generator.
(I may have just reversed my own opinion while writing the justification!)
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Not cool if you were one of the Delta II plants in Europe that thought they were getting there own line.
…and not so cool when you realize that one line at the Hamtramck Assembly plant will be building all the wordwide supply that GM has promised for a indefinite amount of time.
One line in Detroit is going to build my Volt in Canada, it’s going to build NZDavid’s in New Zealand, its going to build JC’s Opel Ampera in Europe, Bill’s Volt in Australia etc.
I know what your thinking, but Statik, they could just add another line…yeah they could, but will they? And if demand is there (?). and they do decide to add a line…that still takes time, and they potentially have to displace something else.
Although, that is not a issue at the moment, Hamtramck only builds crap right now (the DTS, Lucerne)…and I think they have nothing running/planed on the other vacant line since the domestic ‘Delta MPV-7′ plans got scrapped (thats the Orlando). I’d wager, that there might still be junk they used to make the LeSabre/Bonneville lying around in there from 5 years ago, lol.
Sidenote: I think it is likely the ‘Opel Ampera’ won’t see the light of day, at least this generation, given all the nonsense with Opel, and the the fact there is only going to be one line.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
They still work great in Firefox.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I know how you can retake the top stop: Stop grumbling and start posting more about your views on the life of the Volt battery packs!
That should get a few pulses (or minuses) going. LOL
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
I am doing it now in IE8. Seems to work fine.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
______________________________________________________
Wow Dan….that was a good one!
______________________________________________________
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
“For Toyota to have an all electric vehicle, it will have to replace the Synergy technology; or at a minimum, significantly re-engineer it to remove the second input or the transmission all together.”
This is wrong Dave, all that Toyota would have to do is change the motors slightly, either rewind them or gear them and put in a bigger battery.. then they could program it for all electric drive for as long as the battery holds out. The Prius system is more versatile, the Volts system is stuck in the series mode. The one advantage the Volts system has is a conversion to a pure BEV, all you would do is remove the genset. Neither manufacturer is ready for that yet.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Puma fans? Are there any?
I have to agree that it’s pretty dumb, but compared to the colossal, multi-hundred billion blunders of B of A, AIG, et al, it seems to pale into insignifigance.
BTW, FWIW (pretty cool, huh?), “allcarselectric.com” has an interesting post up this AM on a French study concluding that plug-in hybrids are cost effective right now. Also a report on how BMW is using the electric mini to game the CARB rules.
Nice work Dr. Dennis. “allcarselectric.com” is going from strength to strength, IMHO.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
What’s up with the voting on your comments? I sense a vast Volt conspiracy ….. When I clicked on the little green button to give you a bump (not that I agreed just that so many negative votes seem absurd given the posts), your negative score increased! This happened on two different comments.
FWIW the HSD is an ingenious but very complex system. It’s going to be expensive to fix.
Personally I’m not that into the reliability surveys. As I’ve noted before, Lexus gets high marks, Buick gets high marks, Toyota gets high marks, and Scion gets low marks. Did Toyota forget how to make cars? Or is what we’re seeing on the reliability front more about drivers than cars? IOW people who are older and wealthier buy Buicks and Lexi, 20 somethings buy Scions, and cautious folk who read Consumer Reports buy Toyotas.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
nuclearboy siad:
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:57 am
UPDATE: GM denies this report.
But the Volt’s chief spokesperson, Rob Peterson, in an email sent to Green Car Advisor minutes ago, wrote:
“The Chevrolet Volt and Opel Ampera will be produced at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly plant. There are currently no plans to build the Chevrolet Volt outside of the United States at this time.”
======================
Here is the link to that:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/MoreCategories/AutoShows/
I see no reason GM would want to build the Volt in China really (or disclose they planned on doing it)…but you’ll notice Mr. Peterson said, “There are currently no plans to build the Chevrolet Volt outside of the United States at this time…” he didn’t totally obliterate the report.
He didn’t say we have no plans to build EREVs in China, so technically you could interpret this as, “we aren’t building Chevrolet Volts in China, but maI’m leaving the door open to build a Wuling Electara”
(I can’t help think it…it is just the way my mind works. /sorry Tag)
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
A lot of good patent comments. One thing to mention: If one holds a US patent then China can reverse engineer the product but *cannot* sell the product into the US (but they could sell anywhere else).
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
WTF, you should only be using Firefox 3.5 , nobody uses IE8 because its too damn slow and doesn’t support HTML 5.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Electro-diesel locomotives have used the same basic idea as the Volt for decades, only they leave out the batteries. Having one consistent drive mechanism seems far more efficient than supporting two.
In terms of raw energy transfer, yes, I think the number is around 10% loss per conversion, so mechanical -> electrical -> mechanical does lose 20% of your original energy, but the primary mode of operation doesn’t use the ICE.
For the Prius, which is a combustion-powered vehicle with electric assist, the HSD makes perfect sense. For an electric vehicle, it’s bordering on Rube Goldberg territory.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:44 pm
The Volt battery pack discussions are fun, because there is zero accountability to them.
You could tell me that at year 10, they all explode open and hundred dollar bills fly out…who is going to make anyone accountable here in 2021? (=
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I’m not sure about things like Toyota having the best hybrid or making money (these things are debatable), but we can agree that Toyota is ahead on the parallel hybrid front.
That does not, however, mean that it’s not far behind on the E-REV front. The designs are quite different. In fact I think Toyota is further behind on E-REV than GM is on the hybrid front. Even a year ago, at a presentation given by the “father” of the Prius, the Toyota engineers were quite adamant that Lithium batteries were too expensive and that lithium itself was in too short supply for any major car company to use lithium batteries in production vehicles.
I think they believe it won’t work and they’re not going to spend a lot of capital on it until GM proves it can. In some respects they may not be too concerned about catching up. They’ve done that before. They’re probably more worried about other Asian companies catching up to them.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
The mascot comment was very funny and most apt!
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Right with you on all counts.
I’ll even go a step further. Somehow we’re forgetting that the goal is to become less dependent on foreign oil and to emit less. The Prius helps with that in a big way. We ought to be promoting it not bashing it.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:57 pm
When you initially display the page, the votes at that time are displayed and the page doesn’t dynamically refresh.
While you were reading things, other votes were recorded at the central site but not displayed in your browser. When you clicked +1, the system requeried the vote tally mechanism, updated your browser and gave the current tally of your +1 and several other -1’s for a net value of “did I click the right button?”
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:57 pm
A lot of Prius hate on this site. My guess its just very jealous GM fanboys. GM will never gain street cred respect with fans like this.
Prius + 1
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:57 pm
I’m guessing that explains Cadillac and Chevrolet both being in the top 10 on the 2009 JD Power survey. Cadillac (#3) has Toyota (#7) pretty severely hammered on that survey, and Chevy (#9) isn’t far behind.
So, by your logic, a Converj would be far, far, superior to a Prius, and a Volt would be pretty close.
Perhaps YOU should learn to google.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Agreed. This site best viewed by FF3 !
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Yeah.
I’ve been using IE8 for months (when it was beta) and I’ve never experienced any problems.
Maybe you need a Java update?
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:03 pm
The investment in Intellectual Property that Toyota is making tells a lot about what their long term strategy is. Simply put, Toyota bets that the future of automotive transportation is hybrids, period. The massive patent filing initiative is likely intended to lock up the hybrid technology market, and this is likely to work for Toyota if indeed the market goes in that direction.
The development of the Volt makes this strategy now questionable.
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Only 12k Prius sales last month? That’s abysmal for as long at the thing has been out.
Plus, to answer another comment above, when the Prius finally DOES have a problem with HSD, boy lookout!!! You are going to get the biggest screw of you life automotive-wise, without the grease.
There is so much ridiculous technical bias happening today you just have to do one thing LOL. Sadly, prius owners ALL will eventually get the screw when that little “two-block-distance” battery gives up the ghost, or worse, there is HSD transaxle consequential damage when it is out of warranty.
Toyota’s patents protect Toyota Motors profit at the extremely severe expense of the loyal Prius owner who hopes to keep their ride going more than 150,000 miles. This is because Toyota’s way of using patents is for price protection of their parts more than anything else.
The Rising Sun is setting on the Prius.
The VOLTec technologies HAVE NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with HSD, and, anyone who suggests that “they are similar” are as close to a technically-fraudulent statement as you can get.
Toyota has designed-in the Prius obsolescence (parts and services cost-wise) against their loyal customers at 150,000 miles, and I really think that is a disgusting way to use patent law.
GM does just the opposite. GM helps the independent tech better than anyone else so that you can always get highly competent servicing and GM parts at extremely low prices if you compare what GM does with its patents to what Toyota does with theirs.
VOLTec is ascendant in the West. Save up for a Volt down payment, and, take very good care of your current wheels until then.
Dan.
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Thanks DonC. I kinda chuckled at that myself (lol).
As someone mentioned, I think these threads are Lyle’s way of stirring the pot a bit (g).
If my, uber-optimist prediction becomes a reality, this Saturday will mark the one year countdown of the Volt’s release! A major milestone (I hope). Independence Day!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:10 pm
OK, on Firefox now. Seems to work…
Stupid MuthaF@#$%^&* IE8…..
Sheeeeesh.
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I’m the guy who is seeing all these Priuses causing people to go broke.
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Some more “facts”:
The Earth is flat.
The Moon is made of cheese.
You can get more energy out of a system than you put into it.
Let’s see… top 10 JD Powers brands… Includes Cadillac (#3), Ford (#8), and Chevrolet (#9). Where’s Toyota? Seventh.
Granted, the Chrysler family doesn’t fare well– so I’d say two thirds of American manufacturers are improving, and one third still has some work to do.
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Betamax! – Isn’t the GM tech more like the old Betamax since the VOLT tech is better than the Prius tech and more people here like the VOLT better than the Prius?
Oh oh, but the VHS tech won the war due to lower pricing & more acceptance. Only time will tell – soon, very soon …. 2012!
GO EV!!!
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:45 pm
There’s a world of difference between “concept” and “implementation”. After all, look at the huge bank of resistors on the Volt for dynamic braking… er… wait. The Volt doesn’t use dynamic braking, it uses regenerative.
And of course, Electro-Motive and GE Transportation are well known for their advances in Lithium battery technology… well, they might be, if they used batteries in their drive train.
In fact, I would go so far as to say there isn’t a single component shared between a diesel-electric locomotive and the Volt. The motor is a different design, the ICE is different, the generator is different, the braking is *completely* different, and at no point does the locomotive run without the engine. And all of this ignores the scale– large is fine on a locomotive, not so much on a car.
So yes, they’re identical, except that they’re completely different.
Here’s your clue, have a nice day.
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Looking forward to owning the VOLT.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED.
Anything and everyone working to end Middle-East oil influence on the world is a savior to me. GM has the best approach now.
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:51 pm
The reason we prefer the Chevy Volt is that EREV offers the owner the option to drive gasoline use free. Toyota does not. The Volt offers peppy V6 performance. The Volt offers the quietest ride on the road. The Volt offers a comfortable cabin space with high tech features and controls. The Volt offers seats covered in rich Corinthian-like leather (hee hee). The Volt offers 18″ wheels. Solar options such as a portable recharge blanket. And a roof which collects solar energy. American made. Pride in ownership. $7500 tax credit.
Sorry if many sound down on the Prius. The Prius is a decent bridge to going EREV with the Volt.
=D~
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
1) We have heard that the Volt will run the ICE at multiple speeds… therefore it isn’t correct to say that the Volt will always run the engine at the most efficient speed. GM is apparently considering more than just most electricity for the least amount of gas.
2) I am not am expert, but it seems to me the CVT will go a long way to allowing the Prius ICE to run at the most efficient speed.
3) Your argument about the mechanical connections will be used as an argument for why an EV is superior to the Volt. I also know people with cars with electrical gremlins that might argue the point. Regardless, the Toyota system has been extensively tested by hundreds of thousands of cars over many years. I really don’t think you should be assuming that the Volt will have higher reliability.
Personally, I see why the ICE being able to drive the wheels addresses some of the limitations of the Volt.
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:58 pm
It’s also possible that the patents apply to other vehicle types.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Isn’t one of the reasons why GM went through all the effort to get rid of all EV-1s was that if they were sold off, competitors could get their hands on them and reverse engineer them?
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Assuming GM actually builds the Volt & brings it to market, it’ll be the next generation of hybrid.
The Volt will be a Serial Plug-in Hybrid, while the Prius is a Parallel Hybrid.
Thus, the volt will effectively render the Prius obsolete.
So go ahead Toyota, make sure you aggressively patent protect all aspects of the soon to be obsolete and antiquated parallel hybrid technology that is the Prius.
I myself am working towards patenting an improved form of the telegraph; wish me luck
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Exactly how to you patent a “Series Hybrid”? It’s just a Genset, batteries and an Electric motor, right? It’s not like nobody has ever thought that up before.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:08 pm
It is important to remember that the goal here ISN”T an “EV drive”. That may be how GM wants to frame it, but the goal is LESS gas usage and while one Volt may use less gas (in certain situations) than one Prius, the nature of the designs pretty much dictates that for over a decade now and for a long time to come there will be many more Prius than Volt.
Of course just giving the Prius a larger battery is not sufficient. That is why posters here are writing about giving it larger electric motor as well.
The reason why Toyota hasn’t done this, and the reason why they (and many others) believe GM is misguided with the Volt, is because of the law of diminishing returns. Never forget that GM set out to “one up” someone, not to build the right product. It will be interesting to see how this all progresses once GM is expected to acutally run a real business.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:15 pm
News flash: EVERYONE is doing a lot of scrambling right now. Nobody is sure what direction to take so they all probably have numerous projects from hydrogen to plug-in to hybrid to very efficient ICE to new Diesel to BEV in the works. Those engineers are probably talking in their sleep and waking up in the middle of the night screaming from a nightmare where they picked the wrong technology and destroyed the company and their careers.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:20 pm
What does that actually mean?
The difference between series, parallel, and series-parallel has become a meaningless point of debate because no one wants to actually quantify.
For that matter, the term “obsolete” doesn’t actually have a clear meaning either.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Prius beater?
Mini One D: New diesel model with 72 MPG! [eu cycle]
http://www.motorward.com/2009/07/mini-one-d-new-diesel-model-with-72-mpg/
/There’s still a strong argument to be made that advanced technology ICE cars (advanced meaning light weight, turbo, direct injection, fuel flow cutoff etc…) might rally back to outperform the hybrids in cost and performance. imo
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:49 pm
On the broader subject of Toyota and GM, there is an interesting opinion column in today’s WSJ. (Alan Reynolds “Fuel Standards are Killing GM”) The article argues that the new CAFE system greatly favors Toyota and may cause the demise of GM. The reason given is that Toyota sells so many more small high-mileage cars than GM, it will be able, under the CAFE system, to also sell many more large cars and trucks than GM. The opinion piece regards the Volt as likely to have little or no effect because sales volumes will be too low. So, the article argues, a much better policy would be a simple increase in the gas tax, with equal tax across diesel, gas, and biofuel.
Lots there to agree or disagree with, but interesting reading.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Is it going to be available here? Is the Mini One gas version? I’ve never heard of it. Very cool, and I bet they could sell a bunch of them if the price was competetive with the P-word.
As to your comment on advanced technology ICE cars, I quite agree. Look what Chevy has done with the Cobalt xfe, and they are just dabbling their toes in the water.
The August “Automobile” magazine has a neat article on the 1976 Plymouth “Feather Duster”, which was a sort of a Duster “xfe” It came with an aluminum hood, deck lid, bumper reinforcements, transmission case, and an aluminum intake manifold on the Slant Six, LOL. It reportedly got 29 mpg highway.
If they could do that with 1976 technology, imagine what could be done today.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Amen brother. Preach on.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Honda will come back with a better Insight that resolves most of the issues. The episode does show how important it is that the Volt be as nearly perfect as possible when first reviewed — once they get in a bad humor, these auto reviewers bite.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:00 pm
1) I know. That’s why I said – in theory. Now this technology is not working like i said because of limited battery size/energy properties. We will see working theory In the next generations of EREV cars.
2) But still, you do not drive on optimal speed (optimal for engine). You drive +/- 10mph
3) Toyota system is much more difficult to produce. Toyota engine-to-wheels connection at low speeds breaks (is canceled? switched-off? I am sorry, my english is not perfect). This is MUCH more difficult mechanical transmission, then Volt’s or any standard car one.
It works in Prius because Japanese technology (metal parts production technology) is better, then GM one.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:01 pm
delete
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:04 pm
You forget, that you lose energy in mechanical transmission too
About ~2% per each stage. But you have more then one stage in transmission.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:06 pm
(add)
On the same lines:
Statik,
Nasaman,
You may finally get your wish (in 2011)
A high mpg SUV that can tow!
45 mpg (u.s.) and 4,000lb towing capacity.
Not too shabby.
BMW X1 coming to America in 2011, diesel a possibility, up to 45.2 mpg (U.S.)
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/02/bmw-x1-coming-to-america-in-2011-diesel-a-possibility-up-to-45/#continued
2010 BMW X1
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/bmw/2010-bmw-x1-ar76275.html
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Buick (along with Jaguar) is now the highest quality vehicle on the planet.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/19/autos/jdpower_dependability/?section=money_topstories
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Again, Buick is the highest quality vehiclae on the planet now:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/19/autos/jdpower_dependability/?section=money_topstories
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:16 pm
The mini one D is diesel. (d is probably for diesel but I don’t know that for sure). Haven’t seen anything about it coming to U.S. Might not be worth the hassle for BMW to meet emissions.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
When I think of the Puma, 2 words always come to mind….
Organ Donation
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:24 pm
NO COMMENT!
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:24 pm
It is interesting, and you can argue it from several angles.
To me, CAFE is certianly a lot tougher right now on GM, but that is by GM’s own doing. These standards aren’t new, and they have been place since the 70s, and the future moves are forecasted well ahead of time.
Foreign automakers have a natural advantage here when it comes to meeting the requirments, because of either higher standards in their home origin, or the high price of gas.
Certainly standards have been pretty weak (relatively speaking) in North America for a long time. It was in GM’s own personal interest to skirt the issue, and built cars/trucks that others didn’t and that Americans wanted. With the advent of high gas, couple with public awareness of global warming/pollution and the knowledge of the evils of reliance on foreign oil, reality changed pretty quick.
Just as a point of reference, CAFE standards from the last few decades (for pass. cars):
1984: 27.0
1990: 27.5
2000: 27.5
2008: 27.5
2009: 27.5
2010: 27.5
2011: 30.2
In 2007, the step-up system was put into place by Bush (which put overall MPG at 35 by 2020). Then got altered in 2009 to a 5% per year increase (starting in 2012) to get to a 35.5 overall MPG by 2016 (39 cars/30 trucks)
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:29 pm
It is true, GM’s VOLTEC is in a different technical world than Prius. If in fact, VOLTEC is in deed a concept established by GM, I can’t imagine that GM would not have already established propritership. GM will do fine if they just keep on track. A good soundly made USA vehicle that looks nice and has great technology applied and, sells for an AFFORDABLE price, can’t go wrong.
Quit worrying about the other manufactures and do the best on this one. GM must not forget to protect what is theirs during the process.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
My commodore 64 works fine …. although the monitor only shows the color green.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Dan said, “Only 12k Prius sales last month? That’s abysmal for as long at the thing has been out.”
——-
That might have been a little over the top, I don’t see how length of time a model has been out as being a good indicator of a expected volume level. (They actually sold 12,998 last month).
Sidebar: That was also, only the first partial month with the new 2010 Prius, Toyota is now completely booked at the factory through the end of the year, and alotted capacity is 15,000 per month in the US. So you are going to see monthly sales numbers of around 15K from July onward through the end of the year. Internationally, it is the same story, big back orders everywhere.
Toyota has actually mused shipping LESS over here, because the demand is so high at home, where there is a lot less costs associated with selling domestically (and no dollar issues).
Saying the 2010 Prius sales numbers are abysmal, would be like saying that GM only selling 800 Volts a month in 2011 is bad, because they would be selling every single one they could make (GM is only building 10,000 units in the first full year), which is the situation Toyota finds themself in now.
Toyota can only bring over 180K in this next year…and that is how many they are going to sell, Toyota can only build 50k/month, or 600,000 per year right now…and that is how many they are going to sell. Is there any other car right now that can make this kind of claim at these volume levels…in this environment?
As a point of reference even to last months Prius sales (12,998) – at GM last month only the Impala (14,931) sold more copies than the Prius. (and your looking at GM offering a average rebate of about $3,000 and 0% financing on the hood to boot…no such deal to be had on a new Prius)
As for the, your done after 150,000 miles in a Toyota…I can’t comment on the validity of that, you probably know better. I do know they have to cover up to 150,000 miles on some battery issues in a lot of states (thanks to California). I can’t imagine they all explode right at 150,001.
It would seem to me they take pretty good care of you until then, and I think if you owned a Prius for 150,000 miles, you have recouped a monster pile of cash over a similar 25 MPG car…and I don’t know how many cars that start around 20K that have much residual value past 150,000 clicks.
/I love threads with Prius content, sigh
July 2nd, 2009 at 4:02 pm
I could have sworn I replied to this one earlier.
/shrug
2010 Prius has a 60kW (80HP) motor.
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:nM66zCWsdxoJ:media.toyota.ca/pr/tci/en/toyota/document/10prius_spec_e.pdf+2010+toyota+prius+specifications+kW&hl=en&gl=ca
July 2nd, 2009 at 4:17 pm
If they could do that with 1976 technology, imagine what could be done today.
Aptera?
July 2nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Is it just me, or do we rarely get the really cool diesels over here on this side of the pond?
The only cool/Euro diesel thing I ever actually seen come to market was the SMART cdi I owned (70MPG, two seater)…then they discontinued it when they branched out into the US, sigh.
Of course, that makes sense, after all, according to Mark LaNeve diesel is $1.25 more than gas, hehe. Can’t help but link to this again:
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2009/06/04/Economy/A/19419/Mark+LaNeve+General+Motors+Sales+Marketing+Vice+President.aspx
(look for his comments at 22:00)
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:25 pm
You know, up until now I never realise how retarded you were John.
The difference between a Series Hybrid & a Parallel Hybrid is well defined.
The word obsolete is defined quite well also.
In fact, every dictionary I looked at today had a clear definition for the word obsolete.
Could’nt find any dictionaries that did’nt have a listing for it; go figure.
Sounds to me like the problem is on your end, namely that you have’nt taken the time to educated yourself on verbage, word usage, and Hybrid technology in general.
Good luck with it John…whatever the word luck means
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:31 pm
As much as I often find your text condescending in its reply, I think you are spot on with your remark as to quality. In general, Japanese goods went through a massive transition from extremely cheap poor quality, to a state of cheap/reasonable high quality. They are now branching into luxury market with the same high quality we have come to expect.
The goal of any manufacturing (especially in Japan) is to take the defective unit count to as low as possible (eg. X unites per one million). Toyota and Honda have placed the same strategy on larger consumable goods such as cars. I find this particularly the case with Honda. The entire workmanship is immaculate and Honda is quickly building a reputation on this; this reason alone dictated our last car being a Honda, we merely needed to chose a model we liked.
We should expect nothing less from GM. Quality assurance should come with any GM car, and GM need to be recognised as quality builders. Just because a car may be under warrantee for say 3 years from new, there should be an expectation the same car will last a lot longer before repair is required. If a part dies in the first 3 years and needs replacement, this is time the customer must find to take the car back to the dealership. Listen to your critics and learn from this – Stop factoring in the cost of a car repair, and give a quality product – this is the only way GM will win back customer loyalty.
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:32 pm
I actually agree with him about the CAFE standards but, to follow up on Statik’s point, from 1984 until 2008 CAFE standards didn’t change, and gas was about as cheap in real dollars as it’s ever been. Given that GM had a sure fired advantage, if you accept the proposition that GM’s problem is related to fuel economy you’d expect GM to have increased its market share. But in EVERY YEAR GM lost market share to Toyota. So it doesn’t seem like there is much evidence to back up the thesis.
I’d also question whether Mr. Reynolds understands the new standards. He may be right, but AFAIK the new standard calculates the fleet average based on what you sell. Each fleet is calculated separately. IOW if you sell a lot of trucks then you get a lower standard and if you sell more passenger cars you get a higher standard. Basically they’re applying the CAFE standards to each class of vehicle. Thus while you might be able to sell another Escalde if you sell an Escalade Hybrid, you can’t use the sale of a Spark to let you sell another Escalade.
Moreover some of the requirements may be met by things like advances in air conditioning. The new standards really only count emissions, and while an mpg standard can be derived from the emission level, you can also lower the emission level by doing other things that aren’t directly connected to mileage. (Like a better air conditioner).
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:37 pm
“Is it just me, or do we rarely get the really cool diesels over here on this side of the pond?”
______________
Don’t get me started on conspiracy theories.
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Sorry Statik,
I don’t buy any of those reasons.
Toyota must save face.
They aint shippin’ cause they aint sellin’.
Dan
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
I am not sure but I think the previous generation Prius had a 1.5 L 4 rated at about 57 kW (77 hp) while the 2010 Prius has a 1.8 L 4 rated at 60 kW (80 Hp). The old Prius electrical power rating was about 50 kW (60 hp) and the new Prius electrical power rating is 73 kW (98 hp).
The Net power is 110 Hp for the old Prius and 134 Hp for the new. The power rating of the battery has also been increased from 21 kW for the old and 27 kw for the new. And all this provides about a 10% improvement in acceleration (9.8 seconds vice 10.8 seconds, zero to 60 MPH) and about a 10% improvement in fuel economy (50 MPG vice 46 MPG).
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
It’s really not about knocking Prius. It is all about educating the public with these detailed conversations regarding how unacceptable a 15 year old technology is. And:
Toyota markets its products to the consumer for only 150,000 miles before it goes kaput.
The NADA, Edmunds, Kelly Blue Books are all guilty of over rating the overall residual resale value of a Prius mileage-wise in remaining proportions to 150,000 miles.
A poster yesterday said that he thought that it was correct to have all the parts wear out at the same time.
I disagree. If you are constantly investing into a vehicle that you want to last 225,000 to 300,000 miles by taking excellent perfect care of it, an OEM has no business having the luxury of all those “resale price guide” books telling us all a pack of lies as they all find that this proves to be true about Prius. (Which I think the Prius has excessive valuation all along the 150,000 mile economic life expectancy continuum of their resale valuation formulas within all used car price guide lists.)
Many People believe that I do not like Prius. This is not the case.
I do, however, fully expect an honest corporation to not expect to get a “free ride” of unreal “resale values” in these used price guide books, when they absolutely do not deserve to remain overvalued. I insist on protecting all Prius owners from this false set of expectations in that they ought to hold onto a Prius all the way up to 150,000 miles.
Dan.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
The VHS vs betamax is not a good comparison.
VHS won out mainly because it offered much longer record time before beta was able to offer anything over 1 hour. A 1 hour tape did not help if you wanted to record a 2 hour movie. Beta went from 100% of the market to almost 0% over a 10 year period. For the consumer, it was the length of time you could record a movie. Availability, price, and/or quality had little to do with it. It was mainly about the length of time available for recording.
So, I don’t think this is a betamax vs VHS issue just yet. The Volt is currently aimed at the lower end of the luxury car range, the Prius is a medium price car (in the US at least, here in Australia its twice the price with a waiting queue). They are different markets, but both carry the little green badge with the Volt perhaps being a little greener.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Why does the Volt have power steering? That seems like a waste of energy.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:34 pm
I think there may be some confusion here over how toyota’s system works. Whether or not the engine or the motor are on at any given time (during acceleration from a stop) depend primarily on the amount of power requested, not the speed. Additionally, there are some cold-weather conditions that will kick in the gas engine earlier. The Priuses I’ve seen coworkers and friends drive have all had average economy very close to the EPA numbers, either up or down a mpg. Given the relatively small size in the current HSD layout, the electric motor is more of a “booster” to compensate during acceleration for the small, low-torque Atkinson cycle engine using energy captured during braking.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Without debate or criticism, there is no moving forwards.
July 2nd, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Hitachi is set to begin shipping new Lithium-Ion batteries to GM in 2010 for use in GM’s new Hybrid vehicles !!
Does this include the Volt ?
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:13 pm
1. Safety,
2. Almost all cars have it.
3. You’re spending lots of funds and expect it.
4. When moving along, it does not really use much energy.
Dan.
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:15 pm
With ongoing assessment and discussion, progress is likely – not inevitable, but likely. Criticism is neither necessary nor sufficient for progress – but I don’t mean to be critical….:-)
Be well,
Tagamet
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:34 pm
I think it would be good for GM to develop the “Toymota”, or parallel hybrid, or “Synergy”, or wha-cha-ma-callit model as well. For pure gas-mileage at a reasonable manufacturing cost it seems pretty happening.
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Obvious Troll is obvious.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Hold on to your seats.
After Prius/Volt, we usually go back around to EESTOR. (smile)
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:06 pm
The Volt is heavy.
When stopped or moving slowly, power steering will be needed.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:08 pm
BTW,
EU cycle vs U.S. Epa cycle.
You can probably drop the EU numbers by about 20% to guess at how the car would perform on U.S. test cycle.
That would put the new and improved Mini D (with the most economical engine) at about 58 mpg U.S.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:32 pm
The Electro-diesel locomotives do it for a different reason. They are trying to get maximum torque to the wheels. They put a motor in each wheel in the locomotive and have much better control of applying torque with out slippage to get a train moving.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Get a bike.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Rumor has it that Toyota is secretly investing in EEStor. It appears that Toyota has been granted special access to the technology, and is believed to be a game changer!
They have a working prototype, and discuss the technical challenges of integrating the eestor capacitor into the the existing Prius platform. One of the technical hurdles is that the Eestor capacitors have such an incredible di/dt, that the torque basically will wipe out most off-the-shelf TEFC ac induction motors. Toyota is now in the process of designing a new magnetic coupled motor drive that will thermally decouple the armature and stator, as to prevent the thermal runaway that they are now experiencing. Toyota believes the eestor equiped Prius will be able to perform a 0-60 in under 5 seconds, once they get the newly designed motors and all the associated mechanical and electrical issues resolved.
Also, the instantaeous release of heat can cause warping of the motor casings and drive shaft.
Here’s the link: (This is an INCREDIBLE read, and will leave you asking…for more?)
wwww.Toyota-Eestor_March32_2009.tech.com
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:43 pm
That would be the 4 certified-rebuilt ZF 4-speed automatic transmissions that went in to my Jetta TDI. The 5th one came from another source. I only owned that car for 20k miles, too!
I’ll take HSD “problems” (zero problems after 100k miles) over that any day! The only real issue has been one of those HID headlights.
This Toyota has won my respect… My TDI was more fun to drive, but it was a f-ing lot less fun to own!!!
(The TDI really is about the only competition I know of for the Prius that I could buy then. A 2-mode Tahoe just ain’t it.)
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:49 pm
*sigh*
I almost took the bait.
*applauds*
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:50 pm
I should have added the word “now” in the last sentence of that previous post. (Patenting HSD NOW reminds me of Sony’s Betamax maneuver.)
Sony was not very interested in licensing Betamax for many years.
Toyota has been building the Prius for about 10 years.
Now they are interested in licensing.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:53 pm
EDIT: Nevermind.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20090628a1.html
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
>> W Gates III
I see what you did, there.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:04 pm
On #1: It is most efficient to run the engine at more than just the most efficient speed on the freeway.
If you’re in town, it makes sense to “pulse” the battery: run the engine at high power to charge up the battery and then re-enter battery only mode. But if you’re in freeway cruse, there is a steady, moderate power level even on level ground. If the engine is shut down, it will have to restart again in only a few minutes because of the power draw. In this case it’s more efficient to just leave it running.
Of course the engine can be shut down when going down hill. Note that the Prius can’t run engine off over 42 MPH because of the planetary set used to make the combination electric and gas drive so here is one more place where the volt will beat the Prius.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:06 pm
I don’t understand how the Prius is causing me to go broke
You see, there’s a Prius in my driveway that has saved us a ton of money, both on maintenance and fuel costs. Sure, the up-front costs weren’t rock-bottom, but she would have wanted a Volvo if she couldn’t have had the Prius, so it saved a lot of money on that front, too. Total repair bill so far: $70 for a HID headlight.
The TCO on this car has been EXCELLENT over 100k miles. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend a Prius to anyone who needs a modest passenger car. In fact, my girlfriend’s sister and one of her best friends have both purchased Priuses based on her experience, and are very happy with the results. It would still be an excellent car without the HSD — but it wouldn’t be anything special.
As for TCO, my Jetta TDI cost $5k for all of those transmissions over 20k miles. I’m not rich enough to own a Volkswagen, though I could probably afford a Lexus, if that were my priority. And that was over a little less than one year of ownership.
I’ve owned a 1998 Ford Ranger since 2003, also for about 100k miles (it now has 178k miles). I purchased it for $6300, and I’ve put about $4000 into it for repairs.
None of these are apples-to-apples comparisons, but the Prius is winning hands-down, and it’s still going strong.
So, I don’t understand your comment. Is there a car that would provide a similar TCO? Maybe a 5-door Honda Civic, or some of the Korean cars, but the Prius has the HSD, a lot of gadgets inside, and styling that I like.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Who ever heard of wwww? Wish your post was true unfortunately EEStor isn’t going to store nearly the amount of useable energy that people think.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Prius and the Ford Esacpe are not pure series or parallel. When the engine speed matches the road speed it’s a pure parallel. But when the engine is rolling faster or slower, the difference in speed is matched by sending power through the electrical system. At low speed, almost all of the power is going through the electrical system. In the mid range, very little is going through the electrical system. On the freeway, power is actually going BACKWARDS through the electrical system due to the nature of the drive.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Yeah thats what we need more artifical ways to increase the price of gas and further wreck the economy. Destroy the economy and the high cost of going green will prevent it from happening. If you are hurting for case do you spend thousands on solar panels??? No. If you are hurting for cash do you spend an extra 8 thousand on the hybrid version of a car? No.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:17 pm
You seem to be under the impression that Toyota hasn’t been constantly updating their design over the life of the vehicle!
I want to see the Prius made obsolete as much as anyone, but it’s not obsolete yet. The Insight isn’t keeping up. Volkswagen Jetta TDI Sportwagons are made by Volkswagen. Other hybrids aren’t in the same league mileage-wise, even though the Fusion gets great reviews. So, the Prius is the winner of the reasonably-priced green-car segment, because it’s an all-around good car for normal people.
I really hope the Volt will make the Prius obsolete, but it sure hasn’t happened yet!
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:17 pm
lol statik, it’s like talking to a wall!
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:17 pm
______________________________________________________
Bravo!….
Long Live The Fantastic Cheese!
______________________________________________________
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:33 pm
I suspected you were classless. Thanks for removing all doubt.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Considering the price of the Prius is far lower than the Volt, it’s the Prius that’s accessible to a far larger market.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Toyota offering to license the technology is not new; Nissan has had an Altima with HSD available for sale since early 2007. We can safely presume the license was offered and signed some time before that; it would have taken Nissan a year or so to get the car into production.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Imagine that… CAFE regs were there to encourage the development and sale of fuel-efficient cars.
GM gamed the system with the E-85 and truck loopholes.
Toyota gamed the system by producing… fuel-efficient cars.
Now GM’s on the ropes. Smells like… karma.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Dan Petit scribbled, “Toyota’s patents protect Toyota Motors profit at the extremely severe expense of the loyal Prius owner who hopes to keep their ride going more than 150,000 miles. This is because Toyota’s way of using patents is for price protection of their parts more than anything else.”
As opposed to GM’s patents, which are for the betterment of all mankind.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:07 pm
The Volt is a babe magnet.
=D~
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:10 pm
…and it came out on my birthday too.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:12 pm
The difference between a Series Hybrid & a Parallel Hybrid is well defined.
________________________
Is that why Prius is continuously misidentified here?
PARALLEL is an assist hybrid design, like Insight, where there is only 1 electric motor which cannot operate independently.
SERIES-PARALLEL is the full hybrid design, like Prius and Fusion and Tahoe, where there are 2 electric motors plus a PSD (power split device) which allows electric propulsion with the engine stopped.
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:15 am
In the end, the vast majority of consumers won’t care if it’s parallel or series. The main things that will matter are:
1) All-Electric Range (AER)
2) MPG after AER
If someone makes a parallel hybrid with 40 miles AER, then people will be just as apt to buy that as the Volt, all things being equal.
The problem is that none of the plug-in parallel hybrids coming down the pipe have anywhere near 40 miles AER. In fact, they don’t have AER at all, since the electric motor wont drive at highway speeds by itself.
AER is what people will notice the most about plug-ins.
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:22 am
The Prius has been a huge halo vehicle for Toyota but in truth Toyota hasn’t been much better than GM in the fuel efficiency category. The only real believer in fuel efficient cars had been Honda.
As for karma, Toyota is in a world of hurt. It’s gotten one government bailout (OK a “loan”) and will probably need another unless things turn around quickly. Honda is doing much better than Toyota, primarily because it didn’t expand into the truck sector.
As for E85, yeah it was definitely used to game the system, but there are some great bio-fuels that need cars that can run on E85. So E85 vehicles may turn out to be very useful. (Steven Chu would like all cars to be able to run on E85 for a reason).
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:28 am
For plug-ins, we should forget about MPG and look at “Gallons Per Year”.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Prius plug-in ……….. 182
Prius ………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
Toyota could build a Prius with a bigger battery, but there are 2 problems with that:
1) They would need a totally new chassis to do it properly, otherwise handling and crash safety will be affected. In other words:
40 mile battery = total new car design
2) In order to get all-electric range, you not only need a bigger battery, but also a more powerful electric motor. Toyota has only used perminent magnet motors to date. These motors are OK for lower power, but for higher power all-electric driving, induction motors are much smaller cheaper, and more efficient. However, the software for induction motors is much more difficult, and I’m sure there are patents on this…
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:43 am
Xiaowei1 is correct. if you don’t assess a product with criticism, you will not really help perfect a product.
If you make cars and assess your product, you can easily say “yep we are doing a good job”, ignoring any flaws. Discussion is debate, though perhaps not as adversarial.
If you seriously want to disseminate views and opinions, good dialectics will require debate and criticism.
July 3rd, 2009 at 2:59 am
They not “supposed” to sell it in the US. The patent holder still has to defend his/her patent, but the defense currently is pretty much limited to the US operation of said Chinese company. Often it is a US distributor/importer or “US operation” with shallow pockets bringing in the product. There isn’t much to go after. This is one area that needs to be better addressed in international trade, especially with countries that do little to prevent or perhaps even incourage intellectual theft.
July 3rd, 2009 at 3:24 am
Seems more appropriate for a Prius thread to talk about the Insight than the Volt. The Prius and Insight are actually very comparable in their approach to the market, except the Prius does a much, much job of addressing this market. The Insight, in it’s current form, is actually a car without much market because it compares so poorly to the Prius. The only advantage it has is price and Honda will be finding this out the hard way the rest of this year. Honda clearly assumed they could offfer a “lesser” vehicle for a little less price and take market. While this is a much more effective approach in the broader car market, it works a little differently for the high efficiency sub-market. Honda will have to improve the Insight significantly or lower the price and attack the standard ICE economy segment.
This Insight/Prius comparison does give some indication of how the Volt/Prius market acceptance will work. Much of the “high efficiency” market is more driven to use the least gas than it is by cost, IMO. This is why I believe a large portion of the Prius base that has access to plugging-in will convert to the Volt, despite the higher cost. But, the Prius will still have plenty of market available. It will be some time before there is plug-in access for many people. Also, many pragmatic 10 miles and less per day drivers will still choose the Prius. Once there is a plug-in Prius available, then it will have an advantage for 20 miles/day and less drivers. I do not foresee a 16KWh plug-in Prius. There would have to be a LOT of changes made to fit that battery into the car and to make good use of the capacity. Maybe they will design a longer range PHEV HSD vehicle to go head to head with the Volt.
July 3rd, 2009 at 3:36 am
Sounds like a reasonable interpretation of modern corporatespeak.
July 3rd, 2009 at 3:51 am
… and is a 4 seater aimed for the mass…
Oh wait…
July 3rd, 2009 at 5:45 am
March 32?
July 3rd, 2009 at 6:22 am
Thank you – it was a pleasure to read you thread (and many of the others).
The bottom line of all that comparing HSD to EREV is probably this:
Neither of both is perfect and the final an perfect solution is a pure electric vehicle. Future will tell if power is stored in batteries, super-capacitors or whatever.
All other approches are just workarounds – hopefully for just a few years.
July 3rd, 2009 at 6:42 am
The argument made in the WSJ piece is that the effects of CAFE will be, in practice, to move purchasers from GM to Toyota, without overall fuel efficiency increase.
July 3rd, 2009 at 6:44 am
The question is whether Voltec can be used to produce vehicles that are competitive, price-wise. If it turns out to be like two-mode it will be technically interesting but not commercially successful. I hope GM finds a way to drive down the costs of both.
July 3rd, 2009 at 6:46 am
I know I am late with this post but what the heck. John, it seems to me that you understand the superior tech of a series system over a parallel system and are trying hard to at least convince yourself that the prius is a type of series design. [aint gona work] but keep trying till you get a head ache then quit for a while.
July 3rd, 2009 at 7:33 am
Updated mpg guess on U.S. cycle for Mini Cooper D would be at about 45 mpg combined. That’s taking 25% off of the numbers posted on the U.K. mini web site.
http://www.mini.com/com/en/model_comparison/index.jsp
Fuel consumption conversion calculator
http://www.markporthouse.net/rangie/fuelconsumptionconversion.htm#
July 3rd, 2009 at 9:37 am
PS….I meant that in a good way.
July 3rd, 2009 at 10:54 am
LOL ! Looks who’s calling guido “classless” – our resident troll, Charlie H., who dutifully shows up to the Chevy Volt website on a daily basis to nothing more than denigrate the effort of an American company to create a brilliant new solution to Arab oil domination by shilling Toyota fanboy propoganda. Proud of yourself, slug ? I’ll wear your contempt with pride !
July 3rd, 2009 at 11:08 am
Do you have the hot new 1600 baud modem for that? I’m still saving up for it.
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:00 pm
“Denigrate the effort of an American company?” Do you ever read the papers? That American company went toes up. The effort of the current management team ended in bankruptcy and two kinds of hybrid that are unsaleable. Now, they’re sucking down taxpayer cash to produce a $40K compact car.
I’m an unwilling investor in this ongoing catastrophe. It’s my duty to point out what’s really going on.
Reality sure is unpopuar around here.
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Toyota’s sales mix is 60/40 cars to trucks (and the “trucks” includes the Rav and Sienna).
GM’s sales mix is 40/60 cars to trucks (and the “trucks” does include the HHR).
Toyota, in terms of units actually sold, is selling more high-mpg vehicles than GM, by far.
Also, Toyota’s line includes the Yaris and the Prius, both of which are extremely thrifty with a gallon of gas. These drive Toyota’s CAFE numbers even higher.
People like to point out that Toyota has several models of SUV but, so what? They sell in insignificant numbers (800/month for the Sequoia, even fewer for the Land Cruiser) compared to their small cars. People do buy vehicles like that and it’s hard to see where Toyota should leave money on the table by not exploring these markets.
I think Chu is looking at E-85 compatibility as something akin to a civil defense measure. If cars run on flex fuel, they’ll be able to operate on alternatives in situations where oil is temporarily unavailable and, should ethanol production become somehow practical, cost-effective and gains a net increase in energy beyond fossil-fuel-supplied process heat and farm inputs, having a flex fleet to fuel would be useful. Given the extremely modest cost of adaption, it’s almost a no-brainer. As of now, there’s no ethanol economy visible on the horizon.
July 3rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
statik Says: The Prius has achieved a lot, and they have made all the other car makers up their game when it comes to fuel efficiency. History will remember it fondly. Why does it have to be villainized here?
—————————————————–
Here’s the problem. Right now, most people don’t realize how much gas a car like the Volt will save, so most people just see the Volt and the Prius as 2 “green” cars competing with each other.
The reality is that EREVs are a whole new ballgame, and cars like the Prius are much more like a regular car than an EV.
The other problem is that some people want to compare sales figures of a car that’s been out since 1997 to a car that won’t be out until 2011.
Having said all this, I do agree that the Prius is a great car and will be remembered fondly.
July 3rd, 2009 at 2:10 pm
“The other problem is that some people want to compare sales figures of a car that’s been out since 1997 to a car that won’t be out until 2011.”
I’m always amazed at how much of this there is on the snarky comment side. There are axes to grind and the blades are always sharp, long before there is a Volt on the road to make comparisons to.
The “Prius killer” Honda Insight’s sales results should show folks one more time that conjectured projections and real world performance don’t line up with one to one correspondence.
I’m not taking a side so I’m sure that I’ll be eCastigated for taking such a wrongheaded stance by those that have staked their bets on one of the warring sides.
Starting a list.
Prius is crushing Volts
Volt renders Prius archaic
Prius pushes Volt to niche status
Prius sales fall off a cliff of Volt popularity
Volts can’t be built fast enuf
Prius blows Volt mileage away
Volts can’t be given away
All of the above is forever written in stone
July 3rd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Even if it’s a home game, when the home team is down 15,000 to 1500, any trash-talking by the home team’s mascot seems rather stupid.
July 3rd, 2009 at 5:14 pm
You’ve obviously never been to a Penn State vs. Notre Dame game. It’s not always about what the scoreboard says.
Be well,
Tagamet
July 6th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
“Needed?!” I beg to differ. IMHO, too many people confuse luxuries with necessities. My 1959 Chevy is well over 4,000 pounds and the “Armstrong” steering works well. I just make sure the vehicle is rolling slightly while turning the steering wheel.
July 10th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
@ Texas
You are referring to pedal assist electric bicycles with regenerative braking activated at the pedals, for additional efficiency. Such things sell in the millions in Asia and around the world. Surely you don’t think you could imagine anything that hasn’t already been implemented. If folks ever knew about even 1% of all the great stuff that’s already available out there, civilization would be very different and much nicer.
That’s why I think that marketing is the key. Pretty much no one has ever heard of the GM Volt or even if they have, know anything about it. Now, where can GM find a great marketing guy with lots of experience to coordinate GM’s high performance EREV and EV product development?
July 10th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
My goal is absolutely all electric drive. I could care less about what energy carriers, fuel sources, hybrid configurations are used to get that.
Why is that my goal as a driver?
Intrinsic luxury performance and low maintenance:
Quiet.
Maximum torque at 0 rmp and up to about half the top speed.
Instant and near linear acceleration at all times.
Lower center of gravity possible with the energy carrier for improved handling.
Drivetrain has one moving part and a single gear.
Less mechanical brake wear due to regenerative braking.
Sure, toss on a range extended generator if you want, but give me that electric drive luxury performance 100% of the time.