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Chevy Volt Integration Vehicle Update
I must admit I am still amazed that we are actually beginning to talk about a near finished product, the Chevy Volt integration vehicles (IV). Over 2 and a half years ago when I first started this site, (SEE FIRST POST HERE) this point was a time that was unimaginable and yet now has come to pass.
We now have running Volts true-to-form with pictures, videos, and new information. We just had a live chat here with the Volt’s Chief Engineer, Andrew Farah, the only known person to drive one of the new cars. Many of us asked questions, including myself, which went unanswered. Farah chose the ones he wanted to answer from a list, and only had an hour. So what if anything new did we learn? Lets see:
Appearance
He allayed concerns people had about the appearance of the IVer, noting items such as the “head lamps, tail lamps, and paint on the spoiler” were not true to production form at this point because they didn’t need to be for testing. These features will look differnt in the production product.
Handling
He specifically said the Volts’ chassis is “much more sporty” than either the Prius or Insight. Great, but that really isn’t saying much.
Battery Leasing
It is my understanding GM has not yet decide whether to lease or sell the battery. Farah said his team is “working form the perspective that it will be sold with the car,”‘ and will have a 10-year life.
Software/GUI
Farah says the graphic user interface (GUI) on the 2 LCD dash is complete from a software architecture control standpoint, but its appearance will still be refined and calibrated over the next few months.
Gas Tank Size
Farah still says the car will deliver “more than 300 miles” on a full tank of gas and full charge, but claims “we’re still balancing the size of the tank with other factors.” On a side note, I have recently been told by GMs Director of Hybrids and EVs Bob Kruse that the gas tank size is now considered a known entity. …still a veil of mystery here.
Future of EVs from GM
Farah says, “electrified vehicles will certainly be a significant portion of our future sales.” Though recently CEO Fritz Henderson told me gas cars will still make up “the lion’s share” of GMs portfolio in 10 years.
Charging Port Connector
He says his team has adopted a “revised SAE J1772 charge port/connector specification” that is larger than what has been shown previously, but will work with public chargers that are greater than 120V. He said the port was moved down to its own door location because “the SAE connector is a bit larger than would fit under the fender trim,”…”we moved it down to accomodate [sic].”
Charge Sustaining Mode
My question, which was ignored, is what genraotr mode sounded and felt like. To another questioner, Farah said he was “extremely pleased” with driving in the current calibration of charge sustain (generator) mode.
Trim Levels
Farah confirms there will be more than one trim level, “as with most other Chevrolets.”
Engine Noise at Stop
Farah confirms “our plan is to stop the engine when the vehicle comes to rest.”
Engine RPM
Our own N Riley asked if GM “will reduce engine rpm as the speed of the car decreases to keep it sounding like it is trying to run away?” Farah said Riley’s suggestion “clearly makes sense” and although not specifically promises this will be the case, reassures us that his goal for the Volt is it “should not surprise (drivers) unnecessarily.”
Cold and Hot Operation
Farah confirms hot weather testing out West will soon be underway but that the IVers have been operating at 90 degree temperatures in Michigan. He confirmed what we’ve heard in the past that at extremely low temperatures, the car will “use the engine to supplement the battery.”
June 26th, 2009 at 8:38 am
That is a lot more than we know about a most newly developing vehicles.
Thanks GM. You are doing an amazing job with this “moonshot.”
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June 26th, 2009 at 8:44 am
Any idea how many questions were ask in the chat?
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June 26th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I need to hire someone to snag me an IV from the GM proving grounds.
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June 26th, 2009 at 8:53 am
You can still view it, can’t you? All the questions and answers are still there.
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June 26th, 2009 at 8:54 am
In the end, what’s amazing is that the car looks fairly normal. If GM can get the price down, this car may actually be for the masses.
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June 26th, 2009 at 8:56 am
I used to work for a successful manufacturing company. Without going into detail, we produced small parts. These weighing just grams each. Our total shipping weight per year was 1,000,000 pounds. That is a lot of parts.
As our sales increased we were pressured to somehow produce more product. We went to 6 day weeks. Then to 7 day weeks. We added recycled material to our base to keep production moving. We streamlined QC to perform frequent, low paperwork, watch dog checks.
We finally bit the bullet and moved into a new building twice the size of the prior. With huge machines on site to produce the base product.
As plant foreman I spoke with our company president about the demands of getting enough product out. The first thing he said was, “This is a good problem to have”.
GM may run into this issue with the Volt.
BTW: Look at the above Volt photo. Are those seat belt clip dings in the door?
=D~
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:00 am
I think he means “how many questions were submitted?” Not, “how many questions were answered?”
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Lyle
Congrats on what’s had to be quite the adventure in your quest to make the Volt a reality. Lots of highs and lows, but through it all, we could count on our daily “fix” from gm-volt.com. Seems like you like marathons on a couple of levels.
Thanks again,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:18 am
“Our own N Riley asked if GM “will reduce engine rpm as the speed of the car decreases to keep it sounding like it is trying to run away?” Farah said Riley’s suggestion “clearly makes sense” and although not specifically promises this will be the case, reassures us that his goal for the Volt is it “should not surprise (drivers) unnecessarily.”
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I left the word “from” out in my haste to type the question. To keep it “from” sounding like it is trying to run away. Sorry about that. But I was very pleased that he answered my question because I felt it was an important one. There were about 4 or 5 questions of mine he did not answer and I knew it was unlikely he would answer more than one from the same person, even if all the questions were really good ones. Which they were, naturally.
I did ask if someone from GM would review all the questions and possibly answer as many of them as possible and make the questions and answers available on a post. I hope they do.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Well said Tag!
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Didn’t try to slight anyone, including Lyle, but Andrew had nearly 300 questions come in during the hour, so he did his best to answer questions that hadn’t been answered before. He probably needed more than just me to help him sort through the questions and look ahead while he was responding
Thanks to everyone who participated and thanks to Lyle for hosting the chat box on GM-Volt. Feel free to hit me up anytime at http://twitter.com/philcolley.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:21 am
So maybe the EV1 was their “Apollo 1 fire,” and now it’s just about getting to the Moon.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Amen!
Be well,
Tagamet
PS Nice classy first post, Thomb.
NPNS
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Why give that person the pleasure of driving off in one of them. Do it YOURSELF.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:24 am
It depends on how the lease is written, but I’m thinking leasing of the battery is the way to go with gen 1. Better to have GM deal with finding a buyer for the used battery.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Let the deluge begin
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:27 am
I totally agree. It did look really sharp accelerating from taking turns. I am concerned somewhat by the ground clearance under the front area. Lots of road bumps to knock that around. I hope that will be fixed.
One of my questions to Andrew was about the exhaust system. I observed that you could see the exhaust pipe hanging down below the body and asked if that was production intent. I also asked, in the same submission, where the exhaust pipe would exit in the rear and if it would be just a plain pipe or be dressed up.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Volt roof antenna….
Recently saw a great innovation in rooftop antenna. The antenna was placed at the rear of the roof just above the rear window. With a 3rd brake light integrated in. Minor calibrations like this will help push the Volt over the top.
The Volt… it’s alive!
=D~
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:27 am
At first his answer concerned me, because I’d always assumed it would be more efficient to keep the engine running at a red light, putting power into the battery which would be used when the light turns green.
But thinking about it some more, I realized that the generator, acting as a motor, would be close to 100 times more powerful than a conventional starter motor, and could probably start the warm engine in less than a quarter turn of the shaft.
I agree, good question.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Thanks, DonC,
Lyle is so darn dependable, I think it’s easy for some of us take his efforts for granted.
Be well,
Tagamet
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:29 am
It does look like some type of dings. Pretty bad if they are dings for it to happen so early. Just who is watching out for our first IVer?
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Lyle, let me echo the same feelings and thanks as our Tag does. You have done a great job and we don’t show enough appreciation to you for that job. I just don’t know how you have been able to manage it all. THANK YOU!!!!
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:32 am
I’m still on the range issue. Yesterday Farah confirmed that the 40 mile range is based on the EPA city drive cycle. That’s a very mild cycle. We also know that the genset needs to provide about 30kW when the Volt is going 65 mph on a slight uphill, and that it would use around 25kW on the highway (more rural road) and 8kW in city driving.
If you start running the numbers the Volt may only get 20 miles — or even less — in EV mode on the highway. Not only is this a small number, but, more importantly, it’s a number that could disappoint many people expecting a range of 40 miles or a Tesla-like range. The point would be that GM would be well advised to start publishing some real world numbers or it runs the risk of having some very bitter customers or potential customers on its hands. In this regard, since the Volt is going to have quite an EV premium built into the price, customers who want to buy it are going to generally be more informed, and also more willing to work with the limitations of the product than the average customer. But they will probably be less tolerant of misleading PR or advertising than average customer.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:35 am
I’m on the other side of this one. I want to buy a car – period. Not buy a car and lease a battery. IF I were to resell the “formerly loved” vehicle, the buyer (eventually a car dealer or electric company, will negotiate the use of the battery post-volt e.g. electric companies or load leveling in large buildings).
Be well,
Tagamet
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:38 am
Thanks Mr Colley. Good number of questions. Now, is there a chance someone at GM will review and answer a good number of those questions? We would appreciate it very much. We also understand there are some questions you are not ready to answer. Thanks again.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:38 am
From article,
Farah still says the car will deliver “more than 300 miles” on a full tank of gas and full charge
I think I am gong to be disappointed with this one. If it is 301 miles, trips are going to suck. Somewhere in the 400-500 range would be better, but I would like it much higher than that even.
This is more than 300 miles” on a full tank of gas and full charge.
301 – (40 miles on full charge) = 261 miles on full tank. If 6 gallon tank, that is 43.5 mpg. This is probably worst case, but it would be disappointing to me if this turns out to be true.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:40 am
It’s June of 2009. Did you ever think you’d hear Mr. Farah saying, “Darn it, I dinged my Volt!”?
=D~
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:43 am
One of my questions concerned that very antenna. Did not get an answer. That is a very poor antenna. My 2009 Honda uses an integrated rear window antenna for the radio (am/fm) and a small “fin” style close to the very back of roof. The roof antenna looks good on the Honda. I could not accept a Volt with the type of antenna shown on the IVer. Just plain ugly when so many better alternatives are available.
Edited: I don’t like the front mounted “fin” style of antennas GM has on some vehicles. Those type are acceptable but should be mounted at the rear of the roof line.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:43 am
I just hope the Gumint doesn’t foolishly pull the plug, no pun intended, on the Volt and turn it into Apollo 13.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:45 am
I agree, I’ve been here just over two years now, seems like forever and a short while, all at the same time, quite weird really.
Thank goodness for Yin and Yang to keep me centered.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Just wanted to say it is nice to see some people at GM pop in on the site and post a comment from time to time.
/very brave
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Battery Leasing
It is my understanding GM has not yet decide whether to lease or sell the battery. Farah said his team is “working form the perspective that it will be sold with the car,”‘ and will have a 10-year life.
They better be serious about the “sold with the car” battery. Cuz I’ll never lease a vehicle or any portion of a vehicle.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:49 am
I assume that “range tuning” will be part of the refining process. GM seems to have plenty of battery to work with, and GM wants to stay with 40-miles AER. So, they just need to decide what standard to use when they “dial in” the battery management software. Maybe they will decide to use something other than the EPA city drive cycle. My guess is that they will go for the “combined” rating to back their 40-mile AER claim.
GM can’t afford to oversell on this one. They most assuredly don’t want people to be disappointed. I have confidence that they will be able to defend their 40-mile AER claim without everyone calling BS on it.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:50 am
DonC,
Do you think Tesla gets ‘Tesla-like’ range under the conditions you cite? I don’t think so. I don’t think anyone expects the Volt to deliver 40 mile range under any conceivable condition (up a mountainside with the A/C cranked to full, lights on, radio/iPod, phone, etc).
I expect that, with my driving habits (I drive 6 miles to the metro stop and back each day, rarely use A/C) that I may not use the generator at all during the week. Once I retire (in 3 yrs 4 months – not that I’m counting) I would expect that my weekend mileage decline as the community I’m moving to is pretty much self contained.
This vehicle will be almost perfect for me.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:50 am
We are thinking along the same lines.
I don’t want to be scammed, nor do I want some lame range out of the battery.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:55 am
I can only speak for the Yang half of the Dissonant Duo when I say “Thanks” (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
NPNS
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:01 am
I for one do not want to lease the battery. Just does not make sense to me either to purchase the car and lease the battery. One more complication GM (or the customer) does not need. If GM feels there is a real need to purchase the batteries back to allow customers to upgrade, let GM offer a buy back program. If they ever do allow battery upgrades, it would also require a software upgrade. Of course we will be getting some software upgrades along the way as part of a maintenace program.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Noel’s question yesterday about how the engine would respond was not only very good, it opens an entire area for discussion of how closely the E-REV experience should try to mimic the ICE experience.
Let’s look at how the genset behavior could be different than what we are used to in an ICE. Basically when the genset is running it’s providing average power. When there is excess power it goes to the battery; when the car needs more power it can come from the battery. To save fuel, the engine can run at a slower or higher speed than the gas pedal might indicate.
This introduces the possibility that the engine RPMs will not mirror the gas pedal. For example, if the engine is running and producing more power than needed, and the user pushes the pedal, the engine may not need to up its RPMs. Very early on GM said that it might increase or decrease the RPMs with the pedal push, though this would not be needed from a technical standpoint, and in fact would be slightly detrimental, in order have the driver fell comfortable by having the engine mimic what happens on a standard car.
This strikes me as a big mistake. An EV or E-REV is not a standard car, so why should the driving experience be the same? It reminds me of the early computer software which tried to have an interface which mimicked an office — there would be a filing cabinet that you clicked on, the theory being that people couldn’t handle the concept of a folder. But if the E-REV is naturally different than a car with a standard ICE engine then, and if it works best from a technical standpoint to have the E-REV behave differently, GM ought to have the car behave naturally and let the drivers adjust. We’re not completely stupid all the time.
This is also a problem with the way they are treating regen. To get the longest range it would be best to let the car freewheel, meaning the car should not use regen at high speeds. When driving at 65 mph, removing your foot from the pedal should give you the feeling of having an ICE car in neutral. From what GM has said they are not implementing this. Rather than letting the car be most efficient, it has decided to mimic a standard car by having regen kick in so the car automatically slows down. Thus the Volt will behave much like your standard ICE car would in that when you lift your foot from the gas the car slows down rather than coasts. Again, given that this is less efficient than the alternative, GM ought to simply let the car freewheel and have the drivers adjust their driving.
The entire effort to make an E-REV behave like an ICE car just seems like a mistake and a waste of time. If you want an ICE driving experience then you should buy an ICE vehicle. If you want an E-REV then you ought to get the best possible E-REV experience, not an E-REV experience that tries its best to be like the ICE experience.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Orion MI plant has been selected for small car production. Good for MI, bad for WI and TN. Or maybe not? A review of the incentives provided by MI (once they are available to the public) will provide a good illustration of the type of concessions given to industry by states over the last thrity years.
http://www.madison.com/tct/news/456351
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I’ll never let a valet touch my Volt.
=D~
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:07 am
We’d probably get more if it weren’t those meddling Canadians!
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:09 am
I agree. GM is going to have a PR problem if highway mileage falls far below the 40 miles of EV mode. We all expect some less miles per charge on the highway, but not a 50% reduction. If that is what it turns out to be. GM has caused this 40 MPC perception and they need to start addressing it in some manner. Don’t wait until next summer or when the vehicle is in the hands of magazine test drivers. Can you imagine the hue and cry by an auto magazine if their test came back with, say, only 20 miles per charge highway. There would be hell to pay and you better believe Toyota and the others would use it to beat GM over the head. The news media and GM haters (oxymoron) would be on a war path against this terrible lie put out by GM.
Edited: Personally, I am hoping for GM under promising and over delivering on the miles per charge.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:12 am
I agree about the potential to disappoint on AER, but I’ll bet GM does too. This almost HAS to be an area where they underpromise and over provide. They’ve always said that the 40 miles AER was “end of life” range (the batteries’ life that is), so wouldn’t it follow that it’d be stronger at the beginning of it’s life cycle?
Be well,
Tagamet
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:17 am
I think the same thing “troubles” most of us. I had calculated the same thing and could only hope that GM is using a low “over” 300 mile range number as a way of under promising and over delivering. But, if it does get 50 MPG when on the ICE and 40 MPV in EV mode, with a 6 gallon tank that is only 340 miles. I suspect the tank will hold minimum 6.5 gallons and possibly as much as 7.5 or 8 gallons. At 6.5 & EV mode that would be 365 miles. At 7 & EV mode that would be… Well, we can all do the math. So, two things are needed to be known. One, the volume of gallons of the tank(s) and two, the miles per gallon the ICE will have. Is it 40 MPG, 45 MPG, 50 MPG or some other number?
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:21 am
I’m guessing that the key here is “acceptance”. Speaking for my wife (who has been heavily medicated since shortly before our marriage) she says that she’d “jump out of her skin” if the engine roared when she was coming to a stop (or anywhere it doesn’t normally rev high).
Admittedly, that’s a sample of “1″.
Be well,
Tagamet
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:23 am
One would assume the way Farah worded his answer that at least one of the ‘benchmarks’ is not being met (if not both).
The 40 mile AER of the battery is likely the one to hold up…but only on a ‘technical’ level, not a practical one. I assume that 40 miles can only be achieved ‘in a vacuum’ under perfect conditions in the city.
The 50 MPG I have always had a issue with, although I really don’t care on a personal level at all…it could get 20MPG and I’d still buy.
If the 50 MPG was achievable on such a simple setup in a 3,500lb car straight out of the gate, I think we would have seen it by now in other applications. Subbing out the huge pack and putting the whole package into a more aerodynamic/lightweight form, and with this same setup, you would be looking at 60MPG+.
I’d wager at best we are looking at around 40MPG in the real world…I wouldn’t even be surprised to see GM bite the bullet and up the tank size to something like 8 gallons, but 6 is still fine with me.
My own expectation with a 6 gallon tank, and a 45/55 (city/highway) driving split under average driving conditions over a year, I’d be looking for low 30s in AER and 240ish on the tank.
/I can live with that
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:35 am
How soon they forget eh statik?
We are their Magna overlords!
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Leasing is a total non-starter for me.
Part of the package for me in buying a electric car is the independence story. I want to not be beholden to anyone for anything.
The electric car story gives me the ability to not only own the car , but supply it with the means of propulsion totally on my own if I chose to…and I like autonomy of that.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Great comments this AM guys. This has been so positive so far that it is almost scary. Keep it up!
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:41 am
With Gen 1 safely in the rear-view mirror, I could see some entity offering a battery lease as an option to lower purchase price, but not as a replacement for a “whole car” battery-and-all purchase. (This assumes that the economy recovers enough to make the necessary credit available by Gen 2 time).
I could be wrong, but I expect that given the choice, the vast majority of sales would be “whole car,” and not “leased battery.”
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Good discussion point.
If the ICE sounds throaty, then its correlation to my velocity changes would matter. If the ICE sounds like a Caddie’s HVAC fan set to “low,” who gives a rat’s sass if it is running while I am stopped?
When I push the accelerator, I want the car to go. I prefer no engine noise. I am a ninja-neer. Let my moves be functional and stealthy.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Since there seem to be two schools of thought here, how about giving the customer the option? I mean, they do it for whole cars now, so why not?
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:45 am
More on here as well…
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/26/report-gm-chooses-lake-orion-plant-to-build-new-small-car/
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:45 am
DonC said This strikes me as a big mistake. An EV or E-REV is not a standard car, so why should the driving experience be the same? It reminds me of the early computer software which tried to have an interface which mimicked an office — there would be a filing cabinet that you clicked on, the theory being that people couldn’t handle the concept of a folder. But if the E-REV is naturally different than a car with a standard ICE engine then, and if it works best from a technical standpoint to have the E-REV behave differently, GM ought to have the car behave naturally and let the drivers adjust. We’re not completely stupid all the time. …..
The entire effort to make an E-REV behave like an ICE car just seems like a mistake and a waste of time. If you want an ICE driving experience then you should buy an ICE vehicle. If you want an E-REV then you ought to get the best possible E-REV experience, not an E-REV experience that tries its best to be like the ICE experience.
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I agree The EREV experience is a strength.
The Volt can be sold as such, and that’s what makes the car special.
If the goal is to make it “average” no one will every buy it.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:47 am
I do not want to lease a portion of the car either. But I believe it would be a smart move for GM to have a recycle program in place for convenience – it might help build customer loyalty also
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Lyle –> your post is an excellent summary, objective.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:49 am
“If the 50 MPG was achievable on such a simple setup in a 3,500lb car straight out of the gate, I think we would have seen it by now in other applications.”
A “Plug Free Volt” would require a smaller, but more robust type of battery; one with a much higher energy density (to compensate for the smaller pack) and much greater cycle life. Consider that this smaller pack would be charged and discharged almost continuously as you drive.
The MIT energy-channel battery comes to mind, and I wouldn’t rule out positively EESTOR or some other ultracapacitor as possibilities. This kind of storage doesn’t exist today, but could as early as Gen 2 (knock on simulated wood-grain compressed particle board).
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:49 am
It is fine. We understand the situation.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:50 am
As much as I hate to admit it, there is a certain psychological benefit to having a small tank.
My Jetta TDI could hold 15-17 gallons of good highway diesel, but it still cost me $60 to fill up at the peak of the last oil-price spike. I could drive all day on that tank of fuel, but it still stung to put that much money into the tank at one time. This car got about 43mpg when driven on the highway with the cruise set at 80mph.
The Prius reads empty when the tank has about 8-9 gallons of empty space. It’s quick and cheap to fill the tank — I’ve never put more than about $25 into the thing. Also, I can drive in, fuel the car, and leave, all before the Escalade driver at the other pump even gets to a half tank. This keeps the smug flowing, even though I have to stop more often. This car *also* gets about 43mpg when driven on the highway with the cruise set at 80mph.
Weird that. And I’m numerate, so I realize that this is just a mind-game. I can only imagine how someone who is less numbers-obsessed than I am would perceive the situation…
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:51 am
I live on a hillside just North of Seattle and all of my vehicles have gotten far less MPG than the stated. I am assuming I will only get 34 miles +/- of the electric only
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:52 am
The question of lease vs buy is also important to resale. No one wants the Volt to become a one-owner car because no one is willing to be the 2nd owner, so the Volt has no resale value. The lease is a possible way for the 2nd owner to be willing to buy the car, i.e., more confident that she is not paying $thousands for a mostly used up battery.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:53 am
This has been in the back of my mind and this seems like a reasonable place to ask the question.
Fuel Mileage rating.
It seems to me that to determine an economy rating you would run the car to depletion first and then run the EPA test from that point, leaving the battery and regen functional. This would effectively put the Volt into a Prius-like mode.
The resulting number would be within the existing inaccurate system we are used to now so it would give a fair extended range rating campared to the rest of the industry.
I see a bit of friendly ‘competition’ once the production cars hit the road between ‘Volt Heads’ to see who can go the farthest between ‘gas’ fillups.
As for the long highway distance range… I have at best a 200 mile bladder (at the speed limit) so I don’t see 300+ miles as an issue whatsoever.
The Volts strength is in its ability to NOT use gas for the daily commute where most driving happens anyway. I think the use of gas for occasional trips is a good compromise.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:54 am
I find I agree with my Canadian friend once again. The feeling of not being beholden to anyone is a feeling of absolute joy. I just wish I could afford to get my electricity from the sun and wind. On days like we have had for the past two weeks I think I could generate enough power from sunshine to power the world. It has been extremely hot and bright down here in Mississippi lately. Average temp has been about 94 during the day (with a few 100’s) and about 80 at night. Now, if I could package some of this heat and transfer it to some of those cold rainy January days we have. But that is what comes from living “Down South”.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:56 am
I posted this late in the last thread, but I think it bears repeating, here (especially since it got 3 votes, there
):
The Volt may never make money for GM. The Volt may never make sense on a pure dollars and cents basis for it’s owners.
I said may.
If this seems like even a possible outcome, why do it at all (as many detractors here have said)?
The Volt program is all about proving something to the public at large; a solid assertion that an electric car is ready for prime time. At all speeds. For all drivers. In a real car, not a glorified golf cart. The last thing the Volt can be is peculiar, especially from a mainstream ownership perspective.
Once the point is driven home (I meant to do that), the follow on cars to Volt, such as the Converj, will bring home the bacon; and the country (including GM I hope) will benefit greatly.
Hopefully, later generations of Volt will make money for GM, and be an economically justifiable purchase for it’s buyers.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:56 am
This is right on par with the car that I am driving now, range-wise. I Don’t think we can expect 400-500 miles on one tank unless they somehow fit in a 16 gallon tank. Seems a bit of a waste to me.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:59 am
The Volt is very similar in terms of aerodynamics to the Honda Civic hybrid, except that the Civic has had a longer time for refinement, and the Civic weighs less. So I think of the Civic hybrid at 40/42/45 mp as an upper limit of what is possible for the Volt. In fact Volt will be doing well to get to this number, because of its greater weight. I know we all wish it to be otherwise, but one can’t get there by magic.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am
I didn’t expect may question to be answered although remained hopeful, and left my room briefly only to come back and discover to my delight that Andrew had answer may question; the next to last one. Like many other questions, mine was aimed at what various driving conditions would effect the AER. Surely everyone will be looking forward to an update on test results out West under hot weather condiitions. Thanks to Lyle for this one stop source of Volt info. No slight is intended on GM’s website and other internet sites. Lyle has done an amazing job providing us all with the latest info.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am
It seems to me that a owner of a Volt is going to have a closer relationship with their GM Dealer. Either the car gets sold before the battery expires or the Dealer removes and replaces the battery, whether under warranty or not. Personally, I don’t want a third party invovled with the Volt on any level of servicing. I wanna know who’s to blame, so to speak.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am
I do remember now that you mention it. We can certainly hope that will be the case. Wouldn’t 60 MPC at the beginning of life and 40 MPC at the end of life be wonderful? Think of the accolades GM would receive instead of the curses. It would change the public’s view of GM almost overnight. Don’t you think?
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:01 am
I think you are on the right track.
After reading and folloing here for a while now (although only since Christmas-ish so I’m still a noob) I get the impression that they are going for the Caddie HVAC fan sound (near silent)
They’ll leave the throaty sound to the Camaro and Corvette. (Until the EREV Camero or Corvette shows up of course)
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Think about the owner after you and whether it will be easier to re-sell with a lease. Could be.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Same here. I can live with it because the majority of my driving would be within the reduced MPC EV range. Spending money on gasoline would not be very high on my list of things to do daily, weekly or even monthly. So, bring it on GM.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:06 am
I am sure GM understands a large portion of the buying public will feel the same way. If they do offer leasing, it will be an option only, not a requirement. That I feel confident about.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Well.. The NASA engineers didnt intentionally light the Apollo 1 on fire though, did they.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Sounds like a good plan. Good luck with your retirement plans. I plan to “retire” either later this year or early next year. I will be 66 in January.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:08 am
I think what will happen is, GM will realize that 50MPG on the Genset is not going to happen and what they wil do is, desighn the electronics to “Assist” to achieve the 50MPG. Or they will bite the .357 and say, well……we can onlt get 40MPG.40 is still fine to me. I agree with statik, if it were possible for a small 4banger to get 50MPG on a 3500lb car it would’ve been here a long time ago. Besides, everyone always seems to say that GM in all it’s glory of years mfgring ICE “knows” what they are doing with it. Or do they?
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I agree that this is an important question. But I would urge people not to underestimate what you get used to. I mean, some people actually like conventional automatic transmissions. Some people actually hybrids where the engine quits randomly. Some people actually like manuals. Some people actually like motorcycles, which won’t even stand up without constant driver-inputs!
My girlfriend used to drive conventional automatic transmission cars and is now uncomfortable in them, because of the slight jerk and abrupt change in engine RPM when it shifts. She seems to feel that the lack of the smooth power-balancing of the hybrid that she normally drives means that there’s a problem with the car. She’ll usually say something like “oh, right, automatic” and then we’re on our way.
Since the Volt is a mass-market car, these questions are very important — much more important than it is when selling a car to mechanically-literate enthusiasts. But I think asking the question “how much should this car behave like a conventional automatic transmission car” should be replaced with “how should the car behave so as not to confuse the driver.”
The Toyota folks have done a great job addressing this question for Prius, and I suspect that the GM team started this discussion 2.5 years ago and have already addressed it for the most part, even if there are a few variations that they want to try out on the track.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:14 am
This is an interesting point since there are very good points on both sides of the equation!
Pro battery Lease
)
- in 3 years return the old battery and buy the ‘current’ 300 mile battery (…Hey, It could happen…
- resale of the Volt, the new owner gets a NEW battery.
Anti Battery Lease
- I late leases
- I don’t like payments
- I pay cash
Obviously there are more possibilities, but I think the option to lease the battery or buy it outright at the customers preference would be a good solution
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Very likely. Because we get so many questions during the chats, we’ve been doing our best to follow them up with posts to http://fastlane.gmblogs.com that address additional questions or topics of questions we received. It all depends on if we can break the experts away from their day jobs
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Driving a EREV will be different then a normal car, but you cant have the engine doing something that is opposite of whats expected. I would think if properly designed (Which I sure Farah is doing) after a week of driving the Volt, the diffences wouldnt be noticed.
DonC: In Lyle’s Mule test drive he said the following:
“The braking had a customary feel. Regenerative braking was of course in effect, and every downhill grade and coast charged the pack. GM had cleverly built in two driving configuration options called D and L. Both gave the same acceleration, but when you step off the accelerator you get strong regenerative drag if in L and coast in D, the former being best for city driving. As Greg said this could allow you to drive with one foot.”
So it looks like Volt has a freewheeling mode.
The important rule to obey: NEVER have the engine increase in RPM while the vehicle is slowing down.
If the Volt is going to have the engine off at a stop light. It will have to slowly step down RPM until it is at a stop.
I think people will get used to the engine not slowing in time as the car slows down. But it will have to step down RPM as the car slows. It cant still be in High RPM/Power mode when the car is 10-15 mph. I think GM knows this and is not really that hard of a technical problem.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:16 am
I think you are totally correct in your thinking that the Volt should not try to behave like an ICE vehicle. Especially with the regen argument. I can understand the desire to recharge the battery with the regen from slowing down in the city (driving under, say, 40 MPH), but if you are at highway speeds the car should “coast” like you said. That helps to get you farther down the road without use of more battery or gasoline being used. The Volt should operate differently in the city vs the highway in this respect. That is all possible through the software.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Li-po battery charge lasts a surprisingly long time.
Speaking from experience with RC use. A chap stick size li-po battery provides as much power and duration as a cigarette pack size ni-cad battery. With much less weight.
The initial real road battery test results from GM were decidedly upbeat. I believe 40 miles per charge/regen will be the norm. Conversely, holding the Volt at 90 MPH could very well lower expectancy to 30 miles per charge. Country touring may be as high as 50 miles per charge. We’ll need to wait and see.
=D~
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Wait a minute. I thought you had said some time ago that you were the one heavily medicated in you marriage.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Tag, I think the way they’re providing 40 miles AER at end of life is by opening up more of the battery capacity as the battery gets older. So you’d start with 50% of the capacity and be at 100% 10 years from now when your warrenty is void. Otherwise, yes it does stand to reason you’d get 45-50 MPC on day 1 if you got 10 MPC on year 10.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:21 am
“But, if it does get 50 MPG”
I wouldn’t hold my breath on that. I’m gonna guess that even on a full straight way, if you monitor the juice going out of the batt pack it will show some drain to “Assist” in the propulsion.
Of course that’s just IMHO.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:21 am
I wish I had said it that way. Short, concise and straight to the point. are you paying attention GM?
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Yup!
I did take a test drive of the Accord Hybrid a couple years ago, it’s a strange thing to have the engine shut down when you stop at the light but the engine was running by the time I got my foot off the brake an onto the gas pedal. It was far from perfect in that car I think the sales numbers back up that up but it was interesting to try.
I imagine the Volt in extended mode will be similar. (but smoother)
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:22 am
For those who think that 50 MGP in generator mode is not feasible think about Volt as a Fusion Hybrid which is being hypermiled all the time.
When hypermiling Fusion people get to some 70+ mpgs and 100+ on Prius. The only way it is possible without actually hypermiling the vehicle is by having this giant load leveling battery with unprecedented power and energy density. The ICE will almost never have to work outside the perfect sweet spot. As you make the battery smaller the electric range will drop but so will the power too, which will mean poor acceleration etc. So on theory if the power density of the Lion doubles one could expect a volt with 20 mile EV range and same performance as the 40 mile one.
For those who think that is it not possible because It has not been done before, well, as far as I’m aware the battery did not exists until 2 years ago or so and so get to the same performance with NiMH or lead/acid you would need much more then 8 Kwh.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:23 am
If it is too different, people will be afraid of it.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Jackson, I respectfully disagree. I think GM will make money eventually.
Mass production and wide adoption will help out tremendously, I think.
But time will tell.
They have to get over a few things first.
1) They make crap (fact or perception)
2) They make cars no one wants to buy. (fact or perception)
3) Foreign cars are simply better. (fact or perception)
Fact or perception, it doesn’t matter. Both are the same when it is time to spend money.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Reply to myself;
I get that people like our friend Rashiid who have VERY long commutes would have issues I do not with the total battery range.
Putting on my TAG hat, wouldn’t it be cool if they surprized us all with a 60 or 80 mile battery? That Andrew, he’s a sneaky one you know…
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:34 am
This is a good problem to have!
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am
statik:
i share your concerns about a 3500 lb. car. but haven’t we learned here that weight doesn’t matter any more?
Anyway, I cling to the hope that the ability to run the engine in its “sweet spot”, more or less independent of road speed, will allow some sort of gas mileage rabbit to be pulled out of the hat.
Alas, I fear that DonC does me way too much credit at #16. Even so, I am totally ready for a different driving experience if it results in supreior gas mileage. I find it interesting that the Nissan Versa with the CVT gets better mileage than the 6 speed manual. CVTs are also often criticized for delivering a driving experience different from the traditional ICE experience. But the results speak for themselves.
If the engine runs at a constant RPM all the time, or varies in some sort of counter intuitive way, I personally couldn’t care less. As they said in the T****a ads, “I want my mpg!”
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am
I had that first impression as well, but then I thought about my 2001 PT Cruiser (stick shift) that gets about 26MPG highway. I often drive between a small town north of Seattle to the Idaho panhandle, and it is on fumes coming into Spokane, which is just about 300 miles away – hence a pit stop at the halfway point. If the Volt can do at least this, then it would be fine with me.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:39 am
I would want to lease the battery..and that implies GM does not load the cost of two batteries in the total cost. If there are lots of used lease return batteries around then they should be cheap to buy used (and factory reconditioned).
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:43 am
That’s my hope as well, and I’m clinging to it.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:48 am
The epa city cycle is quite agressive, but I dont recall if they use the AC..note there are 32 start-stops in the EPA city cycle.. there is a plot of the cycle in this thread:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=719
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am
I would consider paying cash for the car and leasing the battery if lease payments would be near what I USED to be paying monthly for gas any way.
If that takes thousands, 10 thousand or more off of my purchase price that’s money that can go to something constructive.
Having the battery under someone else’s warranty headaches sounds good too. If the price of batteries plunges and quality and capability goes way up, I won’t start the day cursing the good fortune of the latest EREV buyers.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:59 am
I agree to disagree.
I’ve been trying to figure out how the measurement of MPG will be for the Genset. If it’s with the batt pack connected it’s basically “Battery Assist” and isn’t that exactly how the Prius & Insight works “Battery Assist”??
I thought long and hard and I think the MPG test for Genset only run should be without the batt pack on. Besides, if GM claims the 4banger can achieve 50MPG on a 3500lb car, then they should put it on a 3000lb car and get better mileage right?
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Someone refresh my Kahlua induced mind on the size of the ICE in the Volt please.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
The problem is that you can’t solve this issue by tuning the software. There is only 8kWh of power available, which is about the energy you’d have in a quarter of gallon of gasoline, and the energy needed to power a car is pretty well set by aero drag, rolling resistance, and drive train losses (one and three being the bigger ones). You could dig deeper into the battery but GM does not want to do that.
I’d like to see ranges for highway and US06.
In any case they need to stop using the “up to 40 miles” because that gets translated in people’s minds as “I will get 40 miles”, which is definitely not going to be the case.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
1.4 litre 4cyl
That reminds me.. I have to buy more beer on the way home…
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
People would then say it’s barely acceptable at the beginning and it’s total crap at the end.
Do you remember when a lot of people on this site were looking at their own daily mileage and deciding, yes surprisingly 40 miles a day is a huge part of my normal driving. There was acceptance only after looking carefully at the facts.
In contrast when people first hear that it’s an electric car and it goes 40 miles per charge, then you often get the David Letterman effect. People first think 40 miles, what the he!! am I gonna do with only 40 miles range!
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
And thanks Lyle, for an excellent summary!
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Take a look at this graph which Tesla has released about the energy consumption of the Tesla at various speeds:
https://www.teslamotors.com/display_data.php?data_name=range_blog4
Note that at about 30 mph, which is the average speed of the EPA City Cycle, the Roadster is using about 150-160 watts. Not surprisingly because of mass the Volt will use a bit more, Now look at the energy consumption of the Roadster at 65 mph. It’s close to 300 wh/mile. If the Volt uses a bit more, which again makes sense because the rolling resistance based on weight is more or less a constant, then the Volt might use 350 wh/mile. That translates into a 23 mile range.
It gets worse if you go to 70 mph or 75 mph.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
These cars will most likely end up in crash tests so I would not worry about dings.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
That sure is a plain looking car. Even the door handles look ordinary. Looks like an old Pontiac. Looks like their intent is to make it look and act as ordinary (no surprises) as possible. I wish they would have made it a bit more sportier with a sport-mode button that releases full battery potential and tightens up the suspension and raises the spoiler and lowers the car and …oh well we can dream can’t we Charlie?
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Yes you are right about the 40 mile range being an EOL number. However, the notion has been that as the battery ages GM will use more of the pack. IOW at the begging 50% of the pack would be available and at end of life 70% (or something like this). If this is the case then there won’t be much difference between the range at the end of life and the beginning.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
OK, so we know the Volt has a 1.4l ICE and we know it is ~3500lbs. We also know the ICE will generate 53KW of power which is (53000 / 745.6 = 71.08HP) where 745.6=1HP.
So I ask if anyone out there can do the math if this 1.4l 71HP engine can achieve 50MPG on a ~3500lb car?
On the hack note…
If the batt pack has the ability to spit out 150HP (~111KW), fyi it does, and if you can hack the binaries to allow the batt pack to deliver that much juice at the same time the Genset delivers its 53KW (71HP), you then have a 221HP kickass ride!!!
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
I’d very much disagree that the cycle is aggressive. Yes you’re right there are many stops and starts — something like 22 — but (1) the accelerations out of those stops and starts represent the lightest foot on the pedal (accelerations are +.15g and the Volt can probably do at least +.5g); and (2) stops and starts for an EV aren’t so energy draining as they’d be for a ICE because some of the energy expended during the acceleration can be recovered during the deceleration (which is why contrary to all ICE cars the Prius gets better mileage in the City Cycle than the Highway Cycle). That’s why it makes sense to say “up to 40 miles”. I don’t know many people who drive as cautiously as the drive style represented by the City Cycle.
Just as an aside, it’s great that the Volt has a sporty suspension but if your range is 15 miles when you drive in a “sporty” fashion then maybe it’s not such a plus.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I agree whole heartedly. GM needs to come clean with the EV mileage numbers. They have done their homework and they know what the battery will deliver for any duty cycle. There are only two conclusions I can come to (1) the 40 miles EV range is a myth in any situation other than a mild city cycle or (2) GM doesn’t want to publish these numbers accurately perhaps in order to capitalize on their packaging and technology (i.e sand bagging us). I sincerely hope it’s the latter but in going back over some threads on this topic and re-running some of the numbers I’m concerned that we’ll not see close to 40 miles EV running down the road at 60 mph with the A/C running and the windshield wipers a slappin’.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
As ThombDBhomb pointed out, if the genset can be run at the sound level of a Caddie HVAC fan then all this is a fairly MUTE point!
I seem to remember huge boat like cars in the 70’s being totally silent so it’s possible.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
I enjoyed watching the live chat with Andy engineer. Very interesting. Are you really sure the Volt can beat our next generation Prius ? Don’t be so sure my American friends. We have many more surprises for you before the Volt is ready for sale. How you yankees say, don’t count you chickens before they not hatched ! Greetings as I finish my superior breakfast and enjoy the rest of the day. Oh, I all most forget, the question we would like the Farah to answer is the following: “Is this your first failed project ?”. Ha Ha…have a nice weekend everyone.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Huh… huh… you said “cold rainy January days” (in Mississippi)…. heh heh heh.
Compare that to some of our -20F weather with ice, howling winds and/or heavy snows up here in Wisconsin. Did I mention, it’s been 90F or hotter all most days this week, up here too?
By the way, when you fellas figure out how to bottle that heat, please send some our way next winter, alright? Or maybe we can store our own from the “hot” season. Thank ye kindly
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
I get the feeling that questions like this are being sweated (heavily) over in the next 12-16 months!
I have not yet decided whether I’d lease or buy the battery either.
I’ll buy the car (on time).
Decisions like this will directly effect the MSRP which is yet another reason why we don’t have a solid bottom line as yet. They will need most of the next year to make that educated guess.
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
OK, we agree to disagree yet again…
One simple question, does the Prius get it’s mileage rating with or without the battery and regen enabled? If enabled then I think the ‘depleted’ battery and regen stay in for the Volt test, if they are disabled then you are right and I’ll drop it!
Whew… TGIF!
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
CJS, has officially asked for a “Mustang Mode”!
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
What I HADN’T said was that SHE was, too. (evil grin).
Be well,
Tagamet
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June 26th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Also remember that there is much optimization to do, I doubt GM will give a firm number until these optimizations are complete.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Err, isn’t that the point?
They are shooting for the middle of the pack and to do that you need to provide a good looking (I think it is) good performing (from the video the other day it looked pretty ’spritely’) everyday car.
Now… a year or two into production would I like to see a Volt SS? (Super Spark?) Darn right! The sporty stuff you mentioned are great ideas and make me grin!
But for now let them get it built without specialty model distractions.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Dude, wouldn’t that be sweet?
You know GM over spec’d the Electric motor to the tune of 2x it’s normal expected operation….
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
At least he’s a funny troll!
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
“Akio”
Isn’t that a Harry Potter wizard spell for “Come Here”?
He’s a Magical Troll!
Or a Fairy……”Stinker Smell”
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
There WOULD be a certain satisfaction of using a bigger chunk of the battery to smoke my Chiropractor in his GT500…
He’s a great guy, but it sure would be fun to hold that over him!
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Well, it looks like the price for the Volt in 2012 will jump up in cost approx ~250. The CARB has mandated that all new cars com with new heat reflecting glass to reduce…….well, read the link….
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/26/carb-adopts-reflective-glass-rule-to-keep-cars-cooler/
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
A semi-serious question back at you.
How much advantage will a steady state Atkinson cycle give us? If the engine only runs in it’s ’sweet spot’ then perhaps better economy than we have previously seen is possible.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Dude…..
Don’t hurt his feelings too much, you might need him to work on your back and neck after your head whips back and your back slams against your seat from the torque of the electric motor.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Naw… I’d give him another try later…
If he WAS ticked off I’d have his partner do my adjustment, the only danger there is that he would be laughing his a$$ off!
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
I must have missed the part about varying the amount the battery would be “openned up”. That would certainly be a way to achieve a similar beginning and EOL AER, PDQ, IIRC.
BW,
Tag
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
How much energy will be consumed to provide this special reflecting glass and how much CO2 will be put into the atmosphere during the process? Do they even know? Sorry, rhetorical questions.
What’s wrong with leaving the windows cracked? I never use my A/C…well, maybe 2 or 3 time per year, but that’s it!
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
If you have a Briggs and Straton lawnmower engine, even if you mount a Carter 4 barrel carborator on it, it will still not be able to burn all the gas. In the same way, if the traction motor is rated at 110 kW, it will not be able to become a 160 kW motor because you can supply that much power. If you want more power, put in a larger traction motor.
Can the Volt be expected to be able to achieve 50 MPG? It depends on the minimum energy required to move the vehicle, say at a slow speed to minimize drag, with low rolling resistance tires, and the engine operating in its sweet spot, say producing about 8 kW. Now if the car is using 6 kW, then the ICE generator is also slowly recovering the SOC of the battery toward the ICE shutdown level. Those extra drops of gas to produce those extra 2 kW will not be lost, they will be used to propel the car when the ICE shuts down.
And so the question becomes, can a 1.4 liter GM engine, setup and tuned to achieve maximum fuel efficiency while operating at a constant 8 kW, get 50 miles to the gallon? My answer is it should come very close, perhaps even achieving 50 MPG. Time will tell.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
“…the gas tank size is now considered a known entity.”
So we definitely know there will in fact be a gas tank somewhere on this vehicle.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
My ac is busted so in the summer i’m a ManBQ…..
When I say Hilshire, you say FARM….
Hilshire!
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
In the Volt, gas is something you carry in case you need it; and it doesn’t weigh nothing. Oil is lighter than water (”a pint is a pound the world round”), but imagine what 16 gallons of gas must weigh (120 or so pounds? Is that old saying British? Does anyone out there in aviation perhaps have a realistic estimate for the weight of fuel?). I’ve noticed a change in the way some vehicles ride with a full tank.
If you’re using up electricity to haul gasoline around (and it drops your AER by a half mile), at some point you’re going to wonder if a small tank isn’t a pretty good idea.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
My feeling is the same, the changing speeds of the engine in a ‘regular’ car greatly effects it’s efficency.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
IMHO, the Volt most likely achieve 50MPG ONLY if there is battery assist.
OR….
It stays in an NEV speed.
3500lbs is a lot to move with a 71HP.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
“Super Spark;” I love it.
When Gen 2 comes out, it will be with a smaller battery which does the same job as Gen 1’s larger “T” pack (opening the rear seating for 3 passengers instead of 2).
The “Super Spark” could use the old size pack with the new, higher energy cells for more power (to use up while driving “sporty”).
You wouldn’t have 3 across seating in the back, but how many Super Sport type cars have you seen with more than a perfunctory bench in the back? (It would need to be a two-door, too).
More sportiness could also be imparted with improvements in weight control in areas other than the battery (hopefully the costs for more exotic materials like carbon fiber will continue to drop).
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
I think the options were “heavy regen” and “ICE regen”, the latter being similar to what you would get if you took your foot off the gas in your car today. The idea would be that it would be “natural” for someone coming from an ICE. But it’s inefficient. Hopefully there will at least be an “EV or No Regen” option so you can freewheel.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Right. Where? How big? What shape? No one knows
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
FARM!
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Gen 2 will reportedly have a 1-liter engine specifically designed for use in an EREV (as opposed to the Gen 1’s planned modification of the Cruze’s 1.4 liter ‘world engine’). Does 50 mpg sound more plausible under those circumstances?
Remember, pickup and power would be functions of a better battery and motor; not engine displacement, so a 1 liter wouldn’t turn the Volt into a wimp-mobile. On the contrary, this would improve performance by lowering overall weight.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I always wondered what ever happened to “Tokyo Rose.”
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
A lot. If the ICE runs at a steady state and you are at a stop, the genset should store the energy it creates in the batt pack for use when accelerating. Then the energy used for accel was produced from max eff from the genset.
I thought it was kind of weird that the genset would stop at a stop light. But that’s just for user comfor level.
We’ll just have to see how they test for MPG on Charge Sustaining Mode.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
I did an experiment the other day. I drove my 2008 Malibu (4 cyl) at different speeds. (65, 50, 45, 25) I put the car in neutral and shut off the engine. On my car, I could barely hear that the engine was off or on when I was not accelerating. The road noise drowned out the engine even a 25 MPH. I couldn’t accelerate with the engine off, of course, but in all other driving conditions the motor noise was almost irrelevant.
My guess is that the motor noise of the Volt is going to be very low and the disconnect between acceleration/braking and RPM will be almost unnoticeable.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
What’s the rush to start? Because of the spare battery capacity the ICE doesn’t even have to start when the car starts moving.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
no arguement there!
But all you need for this to work is for the AVERAGE power needed to be 71 hp or less.
I think the battery is ABSOLUTELY part of the equation as it is for the Prius.
So when the car is going downhill and only using say 20 hp the rest of the power goes to the battery and when going up hill and requiring say 90 hp it pulls that extra power already stored from the battery. The whole time the engine runs at a steady speed being very efficent.
I buy the 50 mpg number.
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June 26th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Rashiid:
I SAID MAY.
I was mainly trying to make this point (with perhaps too many words):
“If it is too different, people will be afraid of it.”
Even IF the Volt never turns a profit, it’s still worth doing to open up the world of electric motoring for future Voltec (and other) designs.
As a matter of fact, I’m expecting the Volt to be a pleasant surprise in a lot of areas, profitability among them (I expect Gen 2 will sell like hotcakes, to a wider range of buyers than Gen 1).
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Thanks Thomb.
Clearly I was asking how many questions were ask (submitted). I was submiting some myself.
It would nice to know how many were submitted.
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
I drive by the proving grounds at least twice a day. I will keep an I out for one for you. ;>)
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Hopefully, in a car where road noise will be the most prevalent sound, they will include superior insulation that even a modern car like yours does not have.
Ya about that whole driving at 65mph with the engine off…how did that go?
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
BTW, it really was a classy first post.
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
It looks like a simple, zero maintenance, way to save some imported oil and air pollution to me. What’s not to like? Plus, as they say, it will make your interior last longer. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was incorporated into the Volt from the get-go.
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I agree.
Although I wonder how the inability of the “range extender” to charge the battery over 30% impacts this. One would think that, to have the ability to run the engine at a more or less constant speed and use the battery to smooth out the peaks, might take a bit more ability to store energy in the battery.
Maybe they have this all sussed out already. I hope so.
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
My apologies Noel, I totally forgot that weight was a 90s thing when it came to overall MPG…and is to be ignored now, heeh.
(=
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
A gallon of gas is a little over 6 pounds (give or take depending on the temperature…and 20% more if you are in Europe, lol).
I think most people are thinking about adding 2 or 3 gallons to get it up over a 400 mile range. So we are still only talking about adding less than 20 pounds total (including the weight of the additional housing) when it is full.
16 gallons, as you mentioned, would be 96 pounds, 60 pounds heavier than the expected tank now (6 gallons). 16 gallons would net you over 800 miles range, I don’t think anyone is looking for that. Of interest we started with a double bladder system and 12 gallons.
As for the total weight itself, and its effect on the AER or handling for a couple more gallons? Pretty negligible (especially in a car tipping the scales north of 3,500 and a low center of gravity). Don’t forget, you can always control how much gas you put in your Volt if it concerns you a lot. (=
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June 26th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
“Just as an aside, it’s great that the Volt has a sporty suspension but if your range is 15 miles when you drive in a “sporty” fashion then maybe it’s not such a plus.”
Unless you only 15 miles or so a day than it might be fun!
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June 26th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Wow That’s great 300 questions.
I think most of us are very thankfull for the answers we got, even if our own questions were not answered.
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June 26th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Since I already have my Volt maintenance schedule planned out, Thanks for the suggestions Dan Petit, I would like to see pics of different color Volts so that I can get an idea of what exterior options to get and maybe start looking what aftermarket items I will try
Ok you’re right if you’re thinking… Volts aren’t being sold yet, the Hamtramck line hasn’t been built yet, price and distribution aren’t known, but a little planning (daydreaming) won’t hurt!
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June 26th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
I examined some new suggestions for mileage ratings for PHEV’s and did some math regarding the possibilities. Here is the link from the forum:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2541
In the first link of this above post, the article contained the following quote:
“According to Jon Lauckner, vice president for global program management at GM, the Volt can complete six of the 11-mile-long city cycles or the same number of 10.3-mile highway cycles on one battery charge.”
The highway cycle is somewhat mild compared to typical highway driving, however, for a steady 65 mph, I expect the Volt to deliver 40 mpc.
This is one of the reasons that GM spent a great deal of time in the wind tunnel. Bob Boniface showed a slide last year at a presentation, and every 10 counts of drag reduction yielded 0.25 miles of additional range per charge for the urban cycle. For the highway cycle, this number increased to 0.55 mpc.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10019209-48.html
So I believe the aero improvements were mostly to help with the highway mileage.
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June 26th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
“Stay classy San Diego.”
– sorry couldn’t resist.
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June 26th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
I’m going with a ditrigonal dodecadodecahedron shape, 6.175 gallons, and mounted on top of the driver’s seat.
http://bulatov.org/polyhedra/uniform/u46.html
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June 26th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
“So I ask if anyone out there can do the math if this 1.4l 71HP engine can achieve 50MPG on a ~3500lb car?”
Already done.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2541
Expect more than 50 mpg in charge sustaining mode.
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June 26th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Sweet! a pointy headrest!
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Thanks once again, Mr Colley.
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I would not even attempt to compare the two. I will take Mississippi’s January to Wisconsin’s any day. But there are many days in June – September that it feels like I am living in an oven and some idiot has turned the temperature setting up on high.
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
I got nothing to argue with about your comments. The dog ate my charts this morning while I was waiting for my car to cool down enough to get into it. Next time I am not going to make the dog sleep in my hot car at night.
Seriously, you are more than likely correct in your assertions. I never doubt your hypothesis. (Or is that hypotheses?)
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Sad to say but there is a lot of the David Letterman effect going around the country.
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
“We’ll need to wait and see.”
—————————————————————
Exactly. Unlikely GM is going to be forth coming on this until this time next year at the earliest.
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Agreed to you and DonC’s statements.
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
I also think the Volt’s charge-sustaining mode will top 50 mpg; they just don’t want:
a) to make an incredible sounding claim without extensive testing and documentation to back it up, and
b) they want to reveal it at a moment that it will most shock competitors.
/shock! (and awe)
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
I don’t know that I would agree with you on this. I am not sure what the heck GM is doing except keeping us and the competition confused. Keeping the competition confused is a very good thing, but the bad is that we don’t like it. But what can they do?
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Heat reflection (with no battery drain) is a good thing, down South.
Local and State ordinances limit the amount any window coating may reduce the transparency of a car’s windows (I didn’t read the article, maybe it doesn’t reduce the visible-light transparency at all).
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Yes, I remember all of that. But that does not tell us if it will be 60 mpc at BOL and 40 mpc at EOL. Your numbers suggest higher than 40 mpc at BOL, don’t they?
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
You make some very good points. Had not thought of it exactly that way. Thanks.
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Please send some of that heat to Seattle. It can’t seem to get above 60 degrees here. We’re getting more of an ice age than global warming here.
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Pardon the “off topic” but,
Tag
What’s your cat’s name?
Mine, (an orange Tabby), is “Harry Potter” because he quietly races around the house so much so as to “disappear” whenever he knows I’m looking for him.
(He plays “ice hockey” with a “jingle-bells-plastic ball” and does this walking on his hind legs, batting it along into the corner that is the farthest from him. He’s a really happy “rescue kitty”. Hilarious!)
Dan.
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Tesla offers 3 settings in the software, sedate, sporty and seriously fast..all driver selectable… in the sedate setting you get the 240 miles of range, if you use the seriously fast setting then that drops to about 60 miles.. all numbers are off the top of my head so please correct.
So yes, all-electric-range can be fine tuned by software.. apparently GMs sedate setting gets 66 miles city range without dipping into the batterie’s safety reserves. Yes, if you hacked the software you could probably ruin the battery and get 130 miles range.
So drive it with a calm foot and leave your three obese friends home
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June 26th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
It’s about managing expectations. When told “40 mile range,” I think most buyers will expect to go at least 40 miles in the city or on the highway with average driving. I don’t think many would be surprised to get less than 40 miles AER when driving aggressively (hard acceleration, fast highway speeds, towing, etc.). Conversely, I think most would expect to get more than 40 miles AER on a leisurely cruise on country roads.
If cruising at 70 MPH will cause AER to dip below 35 or so miles, I think GM needs to publish that up front to avoid a PR disaster.
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June 26th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
The avatar cat is Jack. He, his twin (Toby) and his brother (Bubba) adopted our family a little over a year ago. They moved out of their barn to move in with us. The Resident cat here is a big guy named Levi. I’m the alpha male, then Levi, Bubba, and “the twins” (Jack and Toby) are pretty much tied for last. Cats are the perfect pets for a shrink (lol).
Thanks for asking,
Tagamet
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June 26th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
in response to “The important rule to obey: NEVER have the engine increase in RPM while the vehicle is slowing down.” I actually have a Buick that frequently does that. This Buick is a very nice car. The speeding up is somehow in relation to the air conditioning. It is a muted background sound, not at all objectionable.
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June 26th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Luke has an excellent point. I expand, based on my personal full electric drive (motorcycle) and other vehicle experience.
The first three months (ok, for some folks, three minutes) with a completely new drivetrain takes getting used to in how it feels and works and then what you can do with it (electric drive is an exception – stomp and it instantly goes and goes – right now, until about 1/2 of its maximum speed when it starts to smoothly settle down – it’s incredibly straightforward compared to things that go shift in the night). Then when you go back to antique full gasser technology, it’s a huge adjustment in a completely different way, which causes you to say “oh, right, p.o.s. antique complicated full gasser multi-gear shifting drivetrain”. If you change vehicle types frequently you eventually get used to that, too, and to adjusting rapidly to any possible drivetrain in whatever vehicle you jump into (I most often use full electric, 4 cyl parallel full hybrid, diesel series electric drive, 4 cyl turbo diesel TDI with DSG, direct injection gas V2 and turbo direct injection ecoboost gas V6, in that order. You can tell that torque matters hugely to me (for hauling weight and for performance). I also think that excellent handling is far more important in daily driving than maximum top speed. I happily give up higher top speed for lighter weight. Give me a stop and go, stop and go sprinter with good handling (fun and practical in daily driving) every time over a heavy, goes in a straight line at a high speed thing (boring and impractical in real world driving). That’s just me.
Really, when I switch back and forth from electric drive to TDIs with DSG, the new ecoboost turbo offerings, etc, I am amazed at how hard clever ICE engineers have worked to continually improve to tweak ICEs to move towards emulation of the qualities inherent in electric drive (smooth, seamless acceleration at maximum torque) as well as adding power with ever increasing efficiency. That wasn’t time and effort wasted, ICE engineers, as you’ve now (especially in the last 15 years) made the switch to electric drive much easier and seamless for us all.
Compare the current Volt performance to the 1969 Honda N600 that started all the market share eating, realize that the Volt’s efficiency in charge depleteing mode is far superior to the current Honda Civic hybrid and you’ll see that the Volt really is a genuine game changer.
Folks switching from a Dodge Challenger SE V6 to a Volt will feel less difference in performance (except for the Challenger’s grossly inferior off the line launch from a dead stop (I do mean engine off) and pregnant pauses when shifting) than if they switched to a Prius, that’s for sure. By the way, when you stomp on a gasser’s gas pedal and the instaneous response is almost nothing while it makes a huge noise, I call that “bellow mode” – it’s all sound and fury, signifying – nothing right away, while electric drive vehicles leap ahead.
I’m still waiting for some journalists to realize that some of the differences with some electric drive performances are not deficiences (say, the ability to have strong regenerative braking) but can even be superior for safety and performance (one foot go and slow (GAS) single pedal driving for faster reactions and resulting safer and higher performance driving, with minimal use of the basically removes all kinetic energy (BRAKE) pedal, which leaves that infrequently invoked system quite fresh and robust for real emergencies). Maybe that helped the Tesla Roadster (and not their fast Sport edition, either) beat the Porsche 911 GT3 at the Top Gear track.
Yes, I stole the pedal terms from a mini E driver.
BTW, if you folks don’t want to wait the two more years for the Volt to get electric drive, get one the produced ones today listed below (partial list and things are further along than listed) and trade it in for a Volt when they finally at your local dealer:
http://www.pluginamerica.org/plug-in-vehicle-tracker.html
http://www.pluginamerica.org/
/ramble off
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June 26th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
The Volt is tight on space because the big battery uses a lot of it. Space restriction may be more important than weight. If that gallon of gas that many will not use is taking up the space of a gallon of milk that you really want to bring home from the grocery store, you’d rather have the space availale for groceries.
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June 26th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I sure hope this option is available. I will use the L (strong regen) setting almost exclusively. One reason I insist on manual transmissions now is that I want the vehicle to slow down when I reduce pressure on the accelerator pedal (just like it speeds up when I increase pressure on the pedal).
Contrary to the popular preference, I think a manual transmission is actually less work than an automatic transmission to drive in heavy traffic, because I can both reduce and increase my speed with just one pedal.
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June 26th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Trying to find the right words, I’d say it can be different but not scary. It was the way Mazda pitched the rotary engine, the different sound. While the rotary’s seals kept it from becoming mainstream, the different sound became an asset.
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June 26th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Hats off to the hard working, UNION, employees of GM! You have achieved an extremely important milestone with the production of the first IVer.
If only our other 10,000 companies in America were UNION houses! What could we have achieved with an involved and properly incentivised workforce in every company in this country?
PS, as I type, the energy independence of America is being proposed by the majority in the house and the minority are saying “NO” again. The Volt is the single biggest step toward American energy independence.
Voltec in every car you make, please, GM!
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June 26th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
jeffhre,
Thanks for the thanks.
The best thing you could do is to go over to the Chevy store.
Get into a Malibu, (everyone else too).
Then, you will have the very best set of impressions to begin your Volt plans.
If you all do that, I can bet that your better-motivated Volt plans would get you there a lot faster, because you will have a chance to talk to a salesperson and the warranty folks.
I am definitely going to get the upgraded-extended warranty from 36mo./36k bumper-to-bumper to 10yr/100k bumper to bumper absolutely.
It might cost two grand more, but, as I strongly recommend to my auto repair customers (when their current ride is just too dilapidated to fix any longer), that, if you are going to buy something with lots of electronics and luxury extras, or brand new technologies as is VOLTec, then absolutely without hesitation, spring for that 10yr/100k GM FACTORY warranty.
(The aftermarket warranty companies can and do work really hard to deny claims, as I see that very often each week.).
Cheers.
Dan.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
I believe in a not so long ago post (I think it was a video demo), that the Volt has 2 different modes. One will attempt to recapture as much energy as possibly by charging the battery when you take your foot off the gas pedal. The other mode mimicked an ICE and would glide/coast when you removed your foot from the gas pedal. This mode is user selectable.
I agree that you would want the car to coast, especially at highway speeds. Since your maximum efficiency of regen is likely 30-40%, you still lose 60-70% of your energy during regen. (I have not seen the Volts regen spec, so I am just speculating (no pun)).
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
I just heard news that China is likely to renege on the Hummer. Seems China believes the Hummer does not represent an image that they want (suprise, suprise!)
So, anyone looking to buy a car maker?
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Less detail as the vehicle progresses closer to production…
There should be a FAQ with blanks being filled in and speculation being confirmed/corrected. Instead, we are just getting lots of pleasant adjectives.
How will Volt attract consumers and compete without detail?
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
I did a similar experiment in my Honda Civic 5-speed. Coasting downhill between 25 and 65 in neutral (here in Colorado you sometimes have to use your brakes to stay under 65). I definitely could not hear the engine idling over the road noise.
I was surprised, however, by how LOUD the engine sounded after a long coast period when I finally let up on the clutch and the engine quickly revved up to 3000 RPM! I usually consider the engine to be fairly quiet, but the quick transition from idle to full RPM while moving at a constant speed brought home the comment by the GM guy that the engine can be startling when it kicks in suddenly.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
I almost named my new rescue cat “Toby Tabby”, (4 months ago when I got him) but my Mom asked if he resembled a cat named “Harry” that we had growing up (he did). So, I obliged Mom and named him “Harry”. He’s a great little buddy.
Dan.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Jackson:
I’m sure that it complies with CA laws, which I would be willing to bet are the same as yours. Tint across the top of the windshield, light tint on the front door windows, and darker tint on the rear door and rear windows. Like the factory tint on our 4 door Silverado.
The only difference is that this stuff appears to reflect a lot more heat for the same level of tint.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
In the debate on America’s energy independence the last comment I heard from the House Minority leader (the party of “NO”) was that he wants home builders to use materials that contain chemicals KNOWN TO BE CANCER CAUSING in the construction of your next house.
Wow. I did not know that any public official could object to a law stopping unscrupulous builders or manufacturers to use CANCER CAUSING chemicals to build the house your children will sleep in for who knows how many years to come. The party of NO is clearly showing us what they think of our children’s lives and future.
But you can’t blame them. They are just doing what their campaign contributors want them to do.
Heck, if I had a couple of $Billion a year to spend I could buy the votes of the party of NO myself. But I’d rather see them hang themselves with idiotic policies like voting FOR cancerous materials in your next home.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
I guess they could spread honey on it. Or maybe include a pinup poster of Megan Fox!
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
I think it was about 9 weeks back, when someone who posted who seemed to have the exact numbers regarding the increasing usage spread, said that the pack would be utilized to a max of 87% soc on the high end, and, (I believe it was) down to 20% soc at the lower end.
But the impression I got was that the 40 mile AER would be held there as closely as possible for the final published specs of battery life at 40AER for 10 years. (It might actually function way longer at lower AER after the 10 years, but datum are likely too limited to know that right now).
Keeping a strict 40AER over 10 years would help to eliminate all the “complain potential” that could come about if someone was technically-purist to the extent that they might otherwise come to expect or interpret anything less as a functional-irregularity to industry standards, which, of course, GM is setting.
Dan.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
It should be smoother but not very similar since the ICE doesn’t need to leap into action to propel the car, thus allowing the ICE to ramp up smoothly and efficiently.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
You beat me to it. I just saw it too. They’re trying to conserve oil. What a concept!
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Well I think that GM has been more forthcoming about this process than any other new car development I have ever seen from any manufacturer, foreign or domestic.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
That and high Ice efficiencies will probably be >10KW output. So, it would be inefficient to lower ICE output to feel similar to normal idle at stops and it would be inefficient to pump 10+KW into the battery since you will lose an extra 12% or so in charge/discharge losses.
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Thanks, Dan. I definitely missed that, and I’m glad I did. It would suggest the addition of another level of complexity which runs contrary to the KISS approach. Given that I’m not one to be hampered by reality, I’d rather believe that they are actually just under-promising the actual initial AER and maintaining the low end SOC of 50%. This still yields the same outcome at end of life for the battery and the remaining battery life could fill a TON of useful, non-vehicular functions.
As with all things, time will tell.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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June 26th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Well then, did anybody see the post on “allcarselectric.com” about the Chinese Volts? Not to be exported to the US, of course.
Even more interesting is that the comment that, if and when the demand for Volts outgrows the capacity of the Hamtramck plant, production will be done in plants around the world, or words to that effect.
Check it out and see what you think it means.
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June 26th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Troll
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June 26th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Directly affecting the MSRP is exactly why GM should offer a lease option. Personally, I would probably buy but that would come down to a $s and cents decision for me.
From GM’s perspective, having a battery lease option would give them the opportunity to market a $20-23k Volt after tax rebate and w/ $x battery lease. While some people will view this as marketing slieght of hand, but you can be sure the competition will do it. Also, not doing this will place the product at a comparable disadvantage for those people that don’t/won’t grasp the running cost savings. Even if nobody actually chooses a car purchase w/ battery lease, I think would help get people in the showrooms and move more cars. I also think it help will put the Volt’s actually total ownership costs better into perspective for the mainstream consumers.
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June 26th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
For me, the magic is in knowing the last gas only cars I ever will own are in my garage now. From here forward, electrics fueled by American energy are the primary theme.
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June 26th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Is this stuff really necessary?
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June 26th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
GM will be making Volts in China for the Chinese. Good to see them spread Voltec technology around the world. I actually think if they made ALL Volts in China they would be much much cheaper to buy here, say $20K. From a pure business standpoint it don’t make cents with America’s expensive labor costs and old plants. I think its just politics that is causing the initial Volts to be made here. Maybe the next gen Voltecs will use advanced foreign engineering to greatly increase the quality of the build. Go Volt.
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June 26th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
That’s pretty much my way of thinking as well. Doesn’t mean that I will be standing in line to buy Volt 1.0 (the pioneers take all the arrows, you know), but perhaps 2.0 or beyond. What I really want is something like a Toyota Tacoma Double Cab pick-up truck with a Voltec drivetrain. That way, we could ditch our 2003 2-door Dodge Ram 1500 shortbed 4×4 truck and our 2001 PT Cruiser. We have to haul our garbage to the dump each month, hence the need for a truck. Having one vehicle in our garage would free up room for what I’d really like to get (again) – a motorcycle.
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June 26th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
I agree. The “second stationary life purposes” could be really numerous, especially if there was one of GM’s suppliers who knew that battery well enough to have economical ways to properly re-purpose it.
(There would still be an extremely powerful amount of energy in any battery like that, which, even though considered “dead” for propulsion purposes, would contain extremely high voltages which are not considered safe for non-electrical engineers to open up and work with or handle in any way.)
In reviewing the picture of one of the four sections of the Volt battery which had a “open view”, there were extensive electronics above the cells. Likely these are for balancing, testing, and management. But, alas, electronics also are likely to become degraded over the 10 years usage.
However, these batteries could be possibly converted to other uses if properly done so by highly qualified EE’S who would have to know what is needed to repurpose them in a completely safe manner.
While utility companies might have interest to some extent, if there is a breakthrough elsewhere, say, ultracaps, then the laws of economics may prevail a disinterest by utilities.
But, other uses might come about from other breakthroughs or economies for their usages if clear electrical safeguards can be designed in. The initially-necessary Volt Battery cooling system which cools the battery (LG chemistry), might be the limiting factor for economically- repurposing the LG battery.
But the A123 chemistry might be the ticket to an economical situation for a “stationary battery” re-purpose.
In that case, there might be offers in the mail as your battery gets older, from qualified buyers, especially if the condition of the battery can be accurately represented.
Dan.
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June 26th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
If you want to get political…. revoke TARP.
=D~
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June 26th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
“3500lbs is a lot to move with a 71HP.” No, a 3500 vehicle can be moved with a lot less power, perhaps 10 hp! Now this is not the power to accelerate it, but just sustain it rolling along at say 20 miles per hour.
Another way to look at it is to say it is using 200 wh per mile. (Which is to say 5 miles per kwh. So at 20 miles per hour, the draw would be 4 kW per hour. If we plug in more realistic numbers, 250 wh/mile, 4 miles per kwh, our draw at 20 miles per hour is 5 kW.
Now if we push the speed up, so drag requires more energy to sustain speed, say 350 wh per mile, then the draw increases to about 20 kW for a sustained speed of 60 MPH.
Bottom line the 50 MPG number appears valid only for low speed operation, but even at 60 miles per hour the ICE is operating at less than 50% of its capability, and therefore would still be delivering high mileage, greater than 40 MPG or so it appears to me.
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June 26th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
I’ve always thought it was a mistake to allow the states to compete with each other for jobs. It basically results in a net transfer from the taxpayer to various businesses–many of whom really don’t need the money.
I don’t blame GM for taking advantage of the situation. (Every other company in the US does.) I just wish the federal government wouldn’t let it hapen.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
I’m very much liking Lauckner’s quote about the Volt being able to do both the City and the Highway Cycles six times. That’s really encouraging.
The problem is that I can’t square what he’s saying with the “up to 40 miles” quote. Assuming the Volt can go 40 or less miles on a charge is completely inconsistent with Lauckner’s quote that it can go up to 60 miles. I just don’t understand the difference.
I looked at your forum post — nice by the way — and have a question. The quoted article says the City Cycle is 11 miles long. That’s correct as far as I know. It’s 11 miles, takes 31 minutes to complete, and has 22 stops.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/2154662.html?page=3
Why are you using the newer Urban Cycle? Or perhaps better put, why do you think Lauckner is referring to the cycle you’re citing rather than the old City Cycle? My swag would be that an EV will get much better mileage on the City Cycle whereas you’re suggesting it will get much worse mileage.
Also just for anyone reading who is interested, a count of aero is usually thought of as.001, so a 10 count reduction on the Cd would reduce the coefficient by .01. 140 counts would reduce it by .140. Personally I’ve always thought that ten counts wouldn’t be enough to increase the range by .25 miles but I’ve never really run any numbers.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
No kidding! You can say that again. For me the entire open process has actually been very informative. Plus I kinda like the fact that it makes it much harder for GM to push out the schedule! LOL
I give GM kudos for being so transparent.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
I share your concern Donc, but GM’s engineer did say 40 miles on one and a little more than 1 mile further on the other EPA cycle. The comment was very specific but Tesla Roadster is at @230WH/mile at 55mph. Maybe they have squeezed some efficiency out of the accessories, power electronics, and I believe the Volt has lower rolling resistance tires. Also, the highway cycle isn’t steady speed. So, perhaps they’ll made it. I hope so.
The Tesla graph clearly shows how large the hit is the faster you drive. I commented a while back that the apparent mileage reductions from speed will be greater with EV’s, eventhough most losses are the same. The difference lies in the increased efficiency of the ICE as the power moves up toward max efficiency but EV’s efficiency goes down as more current flows throught the electrical path and from the battery. This graph shows it in black & white that the Roadster mileage takes a 30% hit going from 55mph to 75mph, but my Vibe on loses about 15%. The flip side is that most people can mildly change their driving habits to break lightly enough to avoid friction breaking to achieve significantly improved city mileage. ICE drivers turtle accelleration and coast extensively. Also, EV’s will really shine in stop-n-go traffic which is not well represented on any of the common driving cycles (EPA, US06, etc.) and there is a lot of gas burned in this kind of driving.
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June 26th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
I believe GM’s fear is that if they open up more capacity up front, they will have more warrantee issues later on. Personally, If I buy the battery then I want to use my battery my way. I could care less about the fear induced 10 year warrantee. I’ll happily sign a 5 yr warrantee if they give me 75-80% usage window to use as I please. Their are no mountains in Florida to keep extra electrons in the tank for and my daily drive is short.
If I can’t use it the way I want, then the calendar will and why should I have to pay for that?
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Yes, Jackson you are exactly right. That is why it hasn’t been done already with series hybrid. That’s why the Prius was made a parallel split and other hybrids just parallel. But the Prius does show that the Volt can get 50 or close to. Additional ICE running efficiency for mainly average power demand offsets energy conversion inefficiencies. We will know soon enough how well GM’s engineers did in this regard. Eventhough it may not be important to Statik and some others, it will be a huge deal for those 50+ miles daily commutes.If it is on par with the Prius then these drivers can bank the entire AER as an advantage for the Volt.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
If they hit 40 miles AER for 8KWh, then they’ll hit or come very close to 50mpg RE. They go hand in hand. The energy use pencils out and that’s where John Laukner got these goals from. He knows what efficiency they can get out of an engine for running average power needs.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Not even since she cannot know what the experience will actually. Let some real world drivers experience it, and then fine tune the controls accordingly. I don’t think revving down is much of an issue efficiency wise, anyway. Feather down with slight delay for shorter average power interval than under acceleration and shut engine once power needs drop below a set KWh level. Control under acceleration is trickier, IMO.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
From what GM has said, it sounds like they are trying make it quiet enough under normal power outputs (<35KW) to scare rat’s arses. That way, they are freer to control the ICE most efficiently under most driving conditions.
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June 26th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
You lose a portion of the energy to accessories, wind, and other parasitic loads either way but you do lose some more with Regen. It’s not as bad as you state, however since the efficiency of the recaptured then reused energy is more like 70-75%.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Yet, the very thing that makes Volt stand out, charge sustaining mode, is almost completely opaque.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
That’s not just hope. Alex MD is basically correct correct about the efficiencies and absolutely correct about why it wasn’t done sooner with a smaller battery. I’ld say it is more like hypermiling the Prius since the CdA’s are more similar; but you have to subtract for only coasting per regular driving, add in improved regen, subtract energy conversion inefficiencies, add in Prius transmission losses, and subtract for backing off max efficiency for improved customer experience/extending battery. Looked at this way, 50mpg doesn’t sound so unreasonable.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
GM already said they were using low transmittance glass. This is a no-brainer, get over it.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
Forget the Tacoma.
Start a letter writing campaign to GM to put Voltec drive system into the Silverado. Here’s a page with info anyway.
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/family/silverado.do
Buy American. Saving your neighbor’s job will come around eventually and save yours as well.
Not to mention this little tidbit recently found, cargo ships emit as much dangerous pollution as 50 MILLION cars each year. That’s right. Each cargo ship. The 15 largest container ships put out as much pollution as all the vehicles in the world according to autoblog and The Guardian in the UK.
http://www.autoblog.com/tag/container+ship+pollution/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution
“US academic research … showed that pollution from the world’s 90,000 cargo ships leads to 60,000 deaths a year in the US alone and costs up to $330bn per year in health costs from lung and heart diseases.”
We need to change the way we’ve been thinking about imports. Seriously.
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June 26th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
I agree and I’ve made the same promise to my family. We currently own a Highlander and will either be trading it in on an EV or ER-EV when the time comes or converting it to EV ourselves (quite an active EV group in the area so that should be truly exciting).
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June 27th, 2009 at 12:14 am
Yep, it’s amazing how having an (almost) ACTUAL Volt to look at and blog about can lift your mood.
NO plug, NO sale.
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June 27th, 2009 at 12:33 am
If you look at the manufacturers the trend has always been in the opposite direction. Auto manufacturers like to locate factories in or near the countries they sell to. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Bmw, Mercedes all follow this path here vs setting up shop in China to sell to the US.
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June 27th, 2009 at 1:22 am
Ask Dave G if he will re-comment his calcs on battery capacity used new and end of life.
I’m hoping some utility companies will toss in some cash for lowering lease prices. If people see a sticker price thousands higher with battery purchase and thousands lower with battery leases it could change the thinking of a measurable percentage of buyers into buyer/lessees.
I do think in would be absolutely crazy to try to force these leases onto any buyers by GM lenders or dealers. I’ve always thought if you run a business let buyers give you money in any form they want to. Personally I hate going to buy something and having to twist someone’s arm to take my money. Long lines, annoying terms, won’t take my preferred credit card etc it’s beyond annoying.
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June 27th, 2009 at 1:28 am
I went a month ago to see if the dealer had any lists or particular knowledge of the Volt;none. The place was as quiet as a graveyard. Saw a lot of Malibus but didn’t want to sit in one. I’ll have to take my ‘69 out for a summer drive soon though!
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June 27th, 2009 at 1:32 am
“What could we have achieved with an involved and properly incentivised workforce in every company in this country?”
Whether running union or non-union shops clearly not all managers are equally talented or endowed with the vision needed to organize and run their organizations as viable and thriving entities.
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June 27th, 2009 at 1:41 am
Um, maybe they could offer a great product in 11 – 2010. And right now they could try not to push out each and every minute morsel of information before the car has been tuned to a level that approximates the product that will ultimately be sold. Thus avoiding misunderstandings and unreasonable expectations.
Just guessing on my part though!
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June 27th, 2009 at 1:46 am
I would like to know how the capacity would be ‘opened up’. Would the battery management system software make an adjustment to the high end and low end SOC based on the number of charge cycles or would a technician be involved and make an adjustment as part of regular service?
I’m guessing that an advanced battery and management system diagnostic test along with an optimization adjustment would become a necessary part of scheduled maintenance.
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June 27th, 2009 at 2:01 am
I know how that goes, man. lol. I worked with a growing manufacturing company as well, as we were all very close. I remember the CEO/Owner saying the same thing to me “this is a good problem to have”….. Unfortunately, the problem didn’t persist, as the economy fell to shit.
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June 27th, 2009 at 5:26 am
The Chevy Volt’s Electric Range is 40 Miles in Both Highway and City Driving
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both-highway-and-city-driving/
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June 27th, 2009 at 5:28 am
GM says they will play with the points at which the charger shuts off and the ICE turns on in order to maintain 8kWh of usable battery over the life of the car. Here’s an example of how that might happen:
VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) ……… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at ……… 80% ….. 82% ……… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ……………. 30% ….. 27% ……… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh ……………….. 8 …….. 8 …………. 8 …………. 8
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June 27th, 2009 at 6:25 am
GM is already using some foreign engineers on the Volt. For example, Frank Weber is GM’s Volt vehicle line executive, and he moved to Michigan from Germany just to work on the Volt.
Also remember that the Volt is using battery cells from South Korea.
I take issue with Michael J’s assumption that foreign engineering is generally more advanced. The U.S. has been at the center of advanced engineering for quite a while.
For cars, most of the major engineering advancements have come from America. For example, the first hybrid cars came from America in the mid 90’s:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNGV
but gas prices of less than $1/gallon in the late 90’s caused American manufacturers to abandon their hybrids. Meanwhile, Toyota copied the basic hybrid design from the American prototypes and made some improvements. The result is that most people now mistakenly believe Toyota invented the hybrid.
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June 27th, 2009 at 6:29 am
In case anyone has forgotten,
The Chevy Volt’s Electric Range is 40 Miles in Both Highway and City Driving
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both-highway-and-city-driving/
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June 27th, 2009 at 6:52 am
Oh! Dear me, No! I can just see myself in a hurry to go somewhere getting in my Volt and the computer screen says something like “Required update available. Would you like to update now?. A restart will be required.” I would be terrified. (…because updates to computer programs tend periodically to cause a bunch of trouble.)
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June 27th, 2009 at 6:55 am
Such as the last week, for example?
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June 27th, 2009 at 7:09 am
How about at the end of Volt-useful battery life just recycling them, ie, extracting the useful metals and other chemicals and using them to make more batteries? That is, if the batteries are going to be opened up anyway? In any case, I’m glad we’re talking about stuff like this. It’s exciting.
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June 27th, 2009 at 7:14 am
It would be nice if it came with a Valet mode, very turtle like acceleration.. no more than 15mph..
But it would be evil to put in a Teenage Son mode in the Volt
Nice thing about electrics is that all this is just a couple of lines of code in the software.
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