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Chat Live with Andrew Farah, Chevy Volt Chief Engineer Right Here: 4PM EDT
June 25th, 2009 | Posted in: Feedback to GM, Original GM-Volt Interviews
Andrew Farah is the chief engineer for the Chevy Volt, and has been involved in the car’s development since 2007. He is the first person to drive the newly minted integration production intent Chevy Volts, as we have just heard. That’s him driving the IVer above.
I have had the fortune of being able to interview Mr. Farah on several occasions in the past and have learned a lot from him. Now is your chance.
Right here in the chat-box below will appear Mr. Farah at 4PM EDT. Lets give him a GM-Volt.com welcome, and get your questions ready!
Posted by: Lyle
208 Responses to “Chat Live with Andrew Farah, Chevy Volt Chief Engineer Right Here: 4PM EDT”
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June 25th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
The first thing that I want to say to Mr. Farah and GM is congratulations and thank you!
I’ll think up an interesting question before 4pm
June 25th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
A/C is an option or standard? Wonder what it does to the range? Any provisions for “smart grid” in the Volt? Any lessons learned from the Boeing 787 experience with a global supply chain? Will the Volt accept a small hitch for bike racks or some light towing?
June 25th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
I will need to find out in UK time when this is?
June 25th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I don’t have a question yet, but I’m working on it.
I just noticed how LONG that front overhang is on that profile shot above! I’m wondering how much weight is in front of the front wheels, and the weight distribution in general.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Tech questions times
If i miss , Lyle please take car
1) Extended range mode performance (noise and power )
2) Extended range mode mpg
3) If Extended range mode performance and mpg (like above 60 mpg) are great, then is it possible for a 10 mile EREV cruze at 20 k.
4) Battery technology – is there an ultra capacitor sits between battery and motor
5) EEstor – can we expect a volt with EEstor
6) What is the major difference expected between Gen1 volt and Gen 2 Volt.
7) Volt in china – do this be same as Volt in US as china has less safely requirement and cost is a big part of car purchase decision.
and after all How was the drive of new Volt and how much its different from the Mule.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
The battery might counter-balance the overhang.
There is not much rear overhang.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Should there be a malfunction, will GM special ops respond, or will I be dealing with a dealer?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Don’t hold your breath even expecting a bicycle or an RC car from EEstor. However, a History channel documentary covering their new design for a UFO seems like a good likelihood.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Great question #6 ThombDBhomb. I really want to know what kind of warranty will be provided from the bankrupt GM corporation. I mean this hoestly and fairly, without snarkage – I’l like to hear an engineer respond to that question!
June 25th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Lyle, and others, said the Volt handles nicely – mainly because the mid-mount battery balances and lowers the cg.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Does the regenerative brake let you “ride the brakes” all the way from the top of Pilke’s Peak to the bottom without the brakes getting hot? Sounds like a unique safety feature!
June 25th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
That should be 9pm for our UK friends.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Mr. Farah appears to be a rather tall man, yet in the photo above he seems to have plenty of headroom. At 6′1″, I would be interested in knowing the comfortable height limits in the Volt (front seat and rear).
June 25th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Lyle – won’t be able to join in but a question if not asked by others:
Has GM a timeframe they are willing to share at this point for rollout of Gen 2? For rollout of other Voltec products?
Thanks.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Forgot to add, I know its a mgmt question : when we will have volt in Vancouver ( 2010 Olympics ??? )
June 25th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Not to short-circuit ya, eightzero, but I think the answer to your smart grid (V2G) question has already been established. The answer is that it won’t be in Generation One.
Sorry, but I don’t have a solid citation available to back this up, right at the moment. But… just in case it doesn’t get addressed by Farah, I think that’s your answer.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
2100 GMT
June 25th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Or, expressed another way, how tall is Farah and can he wear a hat comfortably while driving it?
Follically challenged minds want to know… uh, I mean, a friend was asking. Not that I’m losing hair or anything like that…
Actually that’s my benchmark (I’m six feet tall) when I sit in a small car. If I can wear a hat that adds 1-to-2″ and it still doesn’t rub on the ceiling (when in any naturally-encountered position), it’s enough headroom for me.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I would just like to hear lots of info on how the Volt drives. How it is different, or the same, as a conventional car.
Acceleration, handling, noise, pedal feel, etc. would be good topics.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
1) When will Lyle get to test drive a pre-production Volt?
2) We currently expect first year production to be limited to about 10,000 units. Many of us will not be lucky enough to buy one in the first year, either due to lack of supply or high dealer markup due to tight supply. What do you think will be the limiting factors for the year 2 production?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Bankruptcy might not last long enough to be a factor when the Volt is available.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
The “gascap” or “ACcap” looks a bit odd up front. Any expectation this will change again?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Corrolary: Can a 66″ person see over the dashboard?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
One simple question: What is the biggest problem you have seen in the IVs?
OK second simple question: What did you like best about driving the Volt.
Oh well a third dumber question: Can the Volt spin its wheels? Or better yet can the Volt smoke it’s tires? ;>)
June 25th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
I wanna ask him if his Beer is Half full or Half empty.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
It’s located where it’s at because the charge controller is in that front left region of the car.
If they move it away for reasons of cosmetics, then you are adding electrical loss. The shortest distance returns the highest efficiency electrically.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
OK, i’m a dumbass, what does 4pm edt translate to in PST?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
A non-technical one:
When he was getting ready to drive that first IV’er, did he hear bits of Lou Gehrig’s farewell speech in his head? Specifically, anything like…
OK, I’m being a little melodramatic maybe
but I stil l wonder what his first thoughts were.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
1 hour from now
June 25th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
You said “PST” but I expect you actually meant “PDT” since Daylight Saving Time is in effect right now.
So, assuming Daylight Saving Time is in effect in both locations, 1pm. But the answer is “noon” if you happen to be someplace weird where it’s actually PST right now, though.
OMG, now I’M confused.
Here, if you REALLY want to blow your mind, read this whole beyotch’in thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time
June 25th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
One small push of the pedal for man, one giant leap——- Oh give me a break
June 25th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
K
Thanks
June 25th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
The short answer:
Come back at the top of every hour to see if it’s started. If not, wait an hour and come back again. Give up around 5pm if nothin’ happens before that.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
PDT, PST
Potatoe, Potahtoe.
lol….
June 25th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
ok, gonna take a quick lunch and brb…..
June 25th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Lyle, I love the Sexy stomach ad you have over on the side. I have to believe that most of the people on this site are probably guys between 20 and 60 that don’t care too much about aquiring sexy abs. Although they certainly enjoy being able to see the attractive after picture when they go to post on this blog. Grab a beer, get your daily volt fix, and eye candy on the side. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if when you click on the link it brings you to a porn site. Something to check when I get out of work I guess
June 25th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Here are a couple of questions of the top of my head:
- How many BTU is the DC powered air-conditioning unit rated at and is it a 12 VDC unit (or some other multiple of 12) ?
- Are those low-friction tires on the pre-prod Volt ? If So, how skinny are they (width in millimeters please) ?
June 25th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Here’s one:
Will the charge port be lockable while charging to prevent tampering? What thought are GM engineers giving to folks who want to purchase a Volt but don’t have a garage in which to store and charge it?
June 25th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Yeah, I was trying to be helpful, but let’s face it, that whole thing went horribly wrong. LOL
June 25th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Looks like my Boater hat will do most nicely. My Dickens era Top Hat, when I do Ebeneezer Scrooge, well, not so well. LOL! Will have to drive the Saturn VUE for that one.
Regards!———Higgins
PS: Looked and looked at the photo of the car. ( I did this as a boy at my Grandfather’s Pontiac, Cadillac dealership ) Hopefully there is more tidying up to do. As I said before, to my agony from some forum members, the original concept design was spot on regardless of aerodynamic transgressions. Perhaps version #2.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
A lot has been said about instant torque available to the Volt driver. So, CAN the Volt actually break traction ? or is traction control device used to prevent this feature which I heavily use but is actually illegal in some states.
Thanks,
Speed
June 25th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Here’s my questions:
1. How much? Never mind tax credits and all that… what’s the base vehicle MSRP going to be?
2. People are curious about the size of the “auxiiary fuel” tank (hey, if this goes according to plan, gas is will be an auxiliary fuel!). So, how big is the gas tank? If you’re building vehicles expected to be production vehicles, you really should know by now.
3. I also noticed Lyle Dennis got a look at the Generator/Drive Motor assembly. Why are they in the same housing? They don’t need to be mechanically linked, do they? And if “a driveshaft” comes out, then it seems there’s one drive motor and the car still has a differential. Why not two electric motors instead, one per driven wheel? Differentials aren’t 100% efficient, are they? Wouldn’t two drive motors be more efficient? Did the decision come down to practical experience with FWD-differential cars vs “too much engineering” to get to a two-motor car or is a single drive motor and a differential really the ultimate way to go and, if so, why?
#21, S Racer,
Absolutely! What good is a car if you can’t do donuts and burnouts?
June 25th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
I’m pretty sure that A/C will take away from the electric range. It’s like asking if A/C will increase fuel consumption on a gas-powered car.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
The battery for an affordable “10 mile EREV cruze” didn’t exist when the Volt was designed, and I’m not sure it really does now. Probably soon, though.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
hi Mr, Farah,
Besides the solar blanket and 18′ wheels. What other options are being developed for the Volt?
Any plans to streamline the front license plate attachment system? Perhaps a clear holder in which the plate can slide in from the top?
Thanks for your reply.
=D~
June 25th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Seems to be EXACTLY where I need it…in relation to my garage outlet.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
two from me already
3) When do you expect Volt pricing and options to be announced.
4) When will GM start taking pre-orders via dealers?
5) We already have nearly 50,000 on our unofficial waiting list. If there is an over subscription of pre-orders for the expected year one production of 10,000 do you expect the year one production to be increased to match demand, or the waiting list and/or price to just grow?
June 25th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Who is making the electric motors for GM , I would really like to know the answer to that question and who is making the differential as well .
What is the final gear ratio and will there be a two speed differential in later versions of cars or light trucks .
Will there be a hybrid version with a smaller direct injection high compression gen-set and a smaller battery pack with capacitors for pick-up and regenerative breaking .
June 25th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
I’m interested in knowing
MPG in generator mode
Noise levels in generator mode
Performance in generator mode
Thanks
June 25th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
I’m pretty sure that regenerative break does not heat. It’s the electric motor who generate electricity from the wheel (like compression on manual transmission vehicle).
June 25th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Can the Volt be drven cross coruntry without recharging or should I ask if runing at 30% battery all day ok for three or four days without charging.
Thank
June 25th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I wouldn’t dismiss EEStor out of hand – ex Board member Topfer said the other day that he had seen a demo an EEESU and that it
seemed to work as advertised. I have no reason to believe that this rather distinguished 73 year old man would tell a fib. That’s simply not plausible.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
That Myth has been busted..using the A/c does not reduce range as open windows increase the drag more thatn the fuel economy penalty of driving a small compressor with a 100+ HP motor…
June 25th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
HOLY MOSES MAN!! 18 foot tires are HUGE!!! (or did you mnean 18″?) lol
June 25th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
My eternal pet peeve – the EPA and its ridiculous MPG estimates for the Volt. First – no MPG figure can be provided that will fit more than a few drivers. You can’t possibly know what MPG a Volt owner will get until you see 1) his driving regiment and 2) whether and where he can recharge away from home. MPG figures may be needed for CAFE calculations (mine indicate over 200 MPG, easy) but the window sticker needs to say : 1) 40 miles est driving ona fully charge batery and 2) 50 MPG during range extended driving mode. End of story. That’s what the customer needs to know.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
ok, I posted a few questions to the online chat/blog with this Farah guy and have yet to be addressed…..
I asked as soon as it went live and a little after.
Sheeesh….
June 25th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
I have been reading the questions and it looks like to me that they are NOT PEOPLE WHO NORMALLY COME HERE , seems to be a controlled chat from GM insiders .
June 25th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
@Keith 31
“seems to be a controlled chat from GM insiders .”
That’s kind of gay if you ask me. My questions weren’t even profane or anything.
lol…..
June 25th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I asked that in the chat and there was no reply….
lol
June 25th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Hey, one of our guys got a question in….
4:46
[Comment From Neal Riley ]
You say your plan is to stop the engine when the car comes to a stop. I hope you also will reduce engine rpm as the speed of the car decreases to keep it sounding like it is trying to run away. Incidentally, thanks to all of the GM team for this vehicle.
4:48
Andrew Farah: Neal, clearly you have put some thought into this, as have we. Your suggestion clearly makes sense. People don’t want the car to act significantly different than what they are used to today. My goal is that anyone should be able to get into a Volt and drive it with very little preparation…and should not surpise them unnecessarily, but should excite them.
You Go “N Riley”!!
June 25th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Any energy lost during the conversion of momentum to electricity to storage would create thermal energy; but this would be spread across the entire electric drive system instead of onto four brake calipers and discs. The whole battery would get a little warmer (as it would when plugged in), the motor (acting as a generator) would get about as warm as during modest acceleration, etc.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I spoke at length with Andrew Farah at Voltnation in New York.
He is not a tall man.
I am 6′ 1″ and he was many inches shorter than myself.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Stonehenge
June 25th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
electrical loss due to length of wire is extremely small with a good conductor and relatively small distance
June 25th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I want to know if you can provide full power to the motor by flooring the pedal, or if a controller will limit the rate of change. This was not answered by Andrew, but does anyone here have a clue?
June 25th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Entire chat transcript…
4:01
Andrew Farah: I’m here and ready to go. Before we get started, I wanted to quickly address a question I’ve seen already while surfing the net. First, some of the parts that you have seen on the pre-production vehicle may not look as they do on the production show car. This is because these parts are not needed in their production form yet for development…things like head lamps, tail lamps, paint on the spoiler, etc. Now, fire away.
4:02
[Comment From Scott ]
How was the drive and how does it compare to other hybrids such as the insight and prius?
4:04
Andrew Farah: Clearly I enjoyed the significantly longer EV distance that is available with the Volt. I had to drive quite some distance before the engine came on, even though I didn’t start with a full charge. By comparison, our chassis is much more sporty than either of the other vehicles.
4:05
[Comment From Augie Churchill ]
Mr. Farah, Do you have any preliminary projections yet for the “Mean Time Between Failures” of the Volt’s Lithium-ion battery? Will there be a warranty for the battery separate from the car’s basic warranty? Have you thought of leasing the Volt’s battery so customers can swap out batteries as the technology evolves and better batteries become available?
4:06
Andrew Farah: We’re designing for the battery pack to have a 10-year life and there has been discussion of all sorts of battery business models, but we’re working form the perspective that it will be sold with the car.
4:07
[Comment From EricR ]
How goes the software development and GUI for the interior?
4:08
Andrew Farah: Basic controls software architecture is complete. The GUI is one of the areas that we will be refining over the next months. Still, a number of controls areas will continue calibration activities.
4:09
[Comment From Yakov ]
What will be the approximate size of the fuel tank and maximum range?
4:10
Andrew Farah: We’re still balancing the size of the tank with other factors, but the range will be more than 300 miles on a full charge and with a full tank of fuel.
4:10
[Comment From Tom Hayden ]
Are you driving the VOLT solely on battery power so far?
4:11
Andrew Farah: No, we’ve been driving the Volt on battery and generator. However, keep in mind, that when the generator is running, we’re still driving electric and the battery still plays a load leveling role.
4:12
[Comment From alexander ]
What will the volt mean for the long term survival of GM?
4:14
Andrew Farah: The Volt is an emerging technology vehicle and any company that wants to continue to improve/progress has got to be ready to move with the technology quickly. Electrified vehicles will certainly be a significant portion of our future sales, and the Volt is a great next step.
4:14
[Comment From Greg ]
Is the round charging port the design that will be used on production models?
4:16
Andrew Farah: We have adopted the revised SAE J1772 charge port/connector specification. While this is a bit larger than what we have shown previously, it will enable interoperatibility with public charging that is greater than 120V. So yes, this is production intent.
4:17
[Comment From Rick ]
Have you driven the IV in charge sustaining mode yet? If so, what can you tell us about the experience?
4:18
Andrew Farah: Just yesterday, I was driving the latest calibration of charge sustaining mode, and I’m extremely pleased. This is one of the more challenging development activities over the next months.
4:20
[Comment From Bill Secinaro ]
Could you explain how the Volt is different from the current hybrids in that the electric motor is actually powering the vehicle at all times? Is this true?
4:22
Andrew Farah: Hi Bill…you’re correct that the electric motor is always powering the wheels, whereas in a typical hybrid vehicle the electric motor and the gasoline engine can power the wheels. The greatest advantage of an extended-range electric vehicle like the Volt is the increased all electric range and the significant total vehicle range combined.
4:23
[Comment From Aaron Crossen ]
Will the Volt be available in different trim levels?
4:24
Andrew Farah: Yes, and we’ll have more info on that closer to launch, but you should expect more than one trim level as with most other Chevrolets.
4:25
[Comment From Thomas Foxcroft ]
What is the energy output of the traction battery in kilowatts?
4:25
Andrew Farah: We limit the total system to 110 kW.
4:26
[Comment From Jim Rowland ]
Does the volt respond the same in all electric mode as well as when the ICE is running, as far as back wheel power or accelation?
4:26
Andrew Farah: The Volt is front wheel drive and yes, the capabilities of the vehicle are the same in EV and extended range modes.
4:27
[Comment From Carol Samuelson ]
Why has the charging port been relocated to the gas cap feature instead of the location in previous vehicles on the fender?
4:28
Andrew Farah: The SAE connector is a bit larger than would fit under the fender trim, so we moved it down to accomodate.
4:28
[Comment From Kyle ]
Is their a considerable difference between the handling of the iver and the mule/cruze body?
4:30
Andrew Farah: We had a few mule vehicles that had chassis set-ups exactly the way that we want the vehicle in production. The pre-production vehicles are meeting this same level of performance, however, we still have some work to do on ride height, spring rates, etc.
4:33
[Comment From Norma ]
I know GM has targeted a range, on battery alone, “up tp 40 mile”. Can you shed some light: is this based on “optimal” best case scenario? Would such claim actually let customers down?
4:37
Andrew Farah: The 40 mile number is based on the EPA Federal test protocol (FTP) for city driving. We say “up to 40 miles” because some people will drive harder or more aggressive than this test cycle. This is the same cycle that is used for regular vehicles and as with those, actual mileage varies based on driving behavior, terrain, and accessory usage. The best thing about the Volt is even when the battery is depleted, you can still keep going.
4:38
[Comment From Bob M. ]
In charge sustaining mode, when stopped for a trafic light, is engine noise annoying?
4:39
Andrew Farah: Our plan is to stop the engine when the vehicle comes to rest, so that the experience is very similar to when the Volt is in EV mode.
4:40
[Comment From Nancy D ]
Andrew, what are the chances that you can reduce the price of the Volt by 25% and extend the life of the battery over the next 6-8 years?
4:42
Andrew Farah: In short, very good. Six to eight years is a long time when working with emerging technologies that are being used in the electrification of the automobile. What helps this move faster is early public acceptance that drives commercialization. What’s important is that EVs need to be seen as clearly relevant by the average consumer, so it is a bit of a chicken and egg issue. But we think the Volt is on the right track.
4:43
[Comment From Rick ]
What work has happened yet at the Detroit/Hamtramck facility to be able to start producing Volts there in early 2010?
4:44
Andrew Farah: The real question is, what are you doing as you build the pre-production properties that get you ready for plant production? We are actually using tools that will be moved to the plant when we are done building the pre-production vehicles later this year.
4:46
[Comment From Neal Riley ]
You say your plan is to stop the engine when the car comes to a stop. I hope you also will reduce engine rpm as the speed of the car decreases to keep it sounding like it is trying to run away. Incidentally, thanks to all of the GM team for this vehicle.
4:48
Andrew Farah: Neal, clearly you have put some thought into this, as have we. Your suggestion clearly makes sense. People don’t want the car to act significantly different than what they are used to today. My goal is that anyone should be able to get into a Volt and drive it with very little preparation…and should not surpise them unnecessarily, but should excite them.
4:50
[Comment From Stephan P. ]
How much of the driving experience is a feature of software tuning rather than the mechanical consequences?
4:52
Andrew Farah: Even in a typical car today, software plays an extensive role particularly in the powertrain. The Volt is no exception, and many other systems such as brakes are significantly software based. In the end, the software can affect almost everything except spring rates.
4:53
Andrew Farah: I have time for a couple more, great questions so far.
4:54
[Comment From Bob "Sweets" Peters ]
When I was in the process of purchasing a car a couple of years ago I considered a hybrid vehicle but was told by many people that although it was enviromentally friendly it wasn’t economically friendly to someone who drives short distances…what’s your opinion of this with the Volt?
4:55
Andrew Farah: Hey Sweets. For short distances, less than about 40 miles, the Volt will be very economical from a cost of electricity per mile vs. gasoline per mile. Of course, this changes as fuel prices fluctuate. How far is it from Flat Rock to Ann Arbor? Wink
4:56
[Comment From GaryCB ]
have you tested the volt A/C under symulated conditiones for extremely hot weather? I live in the Lower Rio Grand Valley where the temp gets over 100 degrees F.
4:57
Andrew Farah: Yes, and we’ll be doing actual testing out west this summer. Btw, it was 90+ degrees here in Michigan during my driving the past couple days. We plan to give drivers some unique options when it comes to controlling there cabin comfort.
4:58
Andrew Farah: Final question, let me find a good one…
4:59
[Comment From Dan Toomes ]
What affect does extreme cold have on the ability of the batteries to provide power to the vehicle? Might this require the engine to run to provide power?
5:01
Andrew Farah: As most people know, cold batteries cannot deliver as much power as warm batteries. The Volt is equipped with an automatic battery thermal management system that will keep them within an optimal temperature range. However, in extremely cold situations we will have to use the engine to supplement the battery.
5:02
Andrew Farah: Thanks everyone for the great questions today. I look forward to doing this again soon.
5:02
June 25th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Just finished watching the chat.
Ok… it was cool!
Nice job Lyle, and thank you Mr. Farah.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s a controlled chat, but it’s geared more to answer questions by people know very little about Volt compared to the typical GM-Volt.com addict.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Really great question and answer session, there were a lot of really good clarifications on several things.
I’m a little disappointed, though, that my question regarding the charge port wasn’t chosen. I hope that someone will be able to answer that at some point.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
To establish your proposed window sticker numbers, there needs to be some sort of official MPC/MPG test protocol. Is your “50 MPG during range extended driving mode” a city number or a highway number? That goes for MPC also.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Lyle, thank you for a wonderful opportunity to actually ask the Chief Engineer a question and recieve an answer.
You get my vote to recieve the first production Volt.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I seriously doubt that GM wants instantaneous, full torque. However, you can always hack the system.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
This was really great!!! Of course we want more, MORE, MORE!!.
Thanks greatly, Mr. Farah! Your chat is deeply appreciated!!.
Dan.
PS. There are about 45 to 60 days above 100 degrees here in central Texas and the lower Valley. 1.75 tons of AC would be fine (cycling efficiently), and, if the cabin could have less air exchange rates than the customary 10%, that would be OK by me. (You might only need 3% outside air MAX per EV cycle).
Thanks tremendously once again! D.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I asked the following question:
4:43 [Comment From Rick ]
What work has happened yet at the Detroit/Hamtramck facility to be able to start producing Volts there in early 2010?
4:44 Andrew Farah: The real question is, what are you doing as you build the pre-production properties that get you ready for plant production? We are actually using tools that will be moved to the plant when we are done building the pre-production vehicles later this year.
==============
I thought this was a somewhat informative response. On the positive side, some portion of the tools for the Hamtramck line exist and are being troubleshot in Warren. On the negative side, it would be plausible to take this response as implying that not much has happened yet in Hamtramck. On the whole, I am inclined to believe that they are progressing reasonable on plan to start pre-production builds in Hamtramck in early 2010 as previously stated. So far so good…
June 25th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
The most encouraging news here was that Mr. Farah was “extremely pleased” with the calibration of the charge sustaining mode as it stands. I can’t wait to hear Lyle’s IV review!!
June 25th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
My previous question was:
4:17 [Comment From Rick ]
Have you driven the IV in charge sustaining mode yet? If so, what can you tell us about the experience?
4:18 Andrew Farah: Just yesterday, I was driving the latest calibration of charge sustaining mode, and I’m extremely pleased. This is one of the more challenging development activities over the next months.
===============
I’m glad to hear that Andrew is “extremely pleased” but otherwise his response is a little short on specifics.
By the way, I copyed the entire chat and could paste it here but I’m guessing Lyle and / or GM would not like that. You can read it by clicking the replay button in the box at the top of this thread.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
I’ve seen that Mythbusters episode, but I don’t agree with all the assumptions. They only proved it was more efficient for the small subset of conditions they looked at (highway speed, large SUV). Suffice to say that for SOME driving habits with SOME kinds of cars and SOME engine sizes, it’s more efficient to use A/C.
I’m certain that’s not always the case though.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
My thought it yes, you get all 110KW flooring it. That’s 150HP but a sh|tload of torque.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
@Cab Driver 42
“By the way, I copyed the entire chat and could paste it here but I’m guessing Lyle and / or GM would not like that.”
Post 35……oooopsie.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
So far, guys, you have some pretty weird questions. I would hate to see someone try to answer a few of them.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
I asked about a dozen other questions that Andrew chose not to answer. These included requesting specifics about the # of cells in the battery pack, the cell and pack voltages, the fuel consumption in charge sustaining mode, the impact on AER of high accessory loads, etc., etc., etc.
It’s not suprising that he didn’t choose to clarify any of this at this time. The chat’s focus was celebrating the first drives of the IV. GM is very careful about controlling the rate at which new Volt info is doled out. They want to keep us junkies hooked for another 16 months til the planned intro!
June 25th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
There probably were a lot more questions coming in than could even-close-to feasibly be answered. And a few he’s not at liberty to disclose, too.
For one thing, and not that this is related to your questions, Jack… but anything related to pricing is about as far from answerable by an engineer as you can get.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Neither were mine .
Did anybody from this site get any question answered ?
June 25th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Capt Jack,
So did I. I actually asked about 5 questions. I think my second question was displayed and answered. My take from that was that someone was choosing the questions to display and have answered. And, as you must know, all of my questions were world shaking questions that really, really needed answering.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
I agree. Neal asked a good question and got a somewhat informative reply. Good on ya!
June 25th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
As far as all MPG figures, that holds true for all drivers. No one driver is going to drive exactly like the next or even like how the EPA or whoever does the MPG for the car’s sticker. It is all relative. Don’t worry about it. Just drive to suit yourself and let it all hang out.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
My Question didn’t make it and I have a concern about resourceful people finding ways to plug the Volt into the power grid. My concern starts with a cord either 220 or 110 volts with no grounding prong or system ground that has failed due to breaking off or make shift just to get electric out to the Volt. What protection does a person have from being electricuted if the ground to the car is not proven. Can the metal parts become alive with electric.
Situation: A person walking up to the door handle would be grounded and the car ungrounded because tires have insulated the car from the ground. This makes the human part of the circuit or path to ground. Person gets electricuted
Also would like to know if there will be a performance chip or software that would not void warranty you could buy at the service counter at dealerships.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
One would assume, based on GM’s statements, that you can drive as long as you keep gasoline in the tank. The ICE generator will send power to the wheels and sustain the battery at about 30% SOC. So, me no worry about trip across great country. See?
June 25th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
You and a couple hundred thousand others. All in good time, I guess.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
And just who the heck are you to want to know these things? (joking)
June 25th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Maybe Dave K is in the business of selling ladders. You reckon?
June 25th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
4:14 [Comment From Greg ]
Is the round charging port the design that will be used on production models?
4:16 Andrew Farah: We have adopted the revised SAE J1772 charge port/connector specification. While this is a bit larger than what we have shown previously, it will enable interoperatibility with public charging that is greater than 120V. So yes, this is production intent.
============
I haven’t read the J1772 standard, but I have the impression that the vehicle can sense which pins on the connector are connected to the wall outlet and that the vehicle will not go “hot” when there is a ground fault. This kind of safety issue would not go unthought of or ignored. These guys are not stupid.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I doubt the world is going to come to an end.
They’ll probably forgive you this one time!
June 25th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Just as an interesting bit of trivia, my avatar appears in replies to replies, but not in top level replies like this one. Wassup with dat?
June 25th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
We must give credit to GM to be so open about this project, I hope people understand this is unique to give such access during the development phase.
Thanks Lyle, with the previous post, these are amoung the great post we had here. Great access, good answers (even if they were picking them).
June 25th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
4pm?? But, but… work… ;(
Some questions, wish he took a few more
June 25th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I read in an article the system was deliberately “tweeked” for the mules to prevent journalists from flooring the system and deliberately trying to do a burnout or chirp the wheels. Does anyone know if this is correct?
In the same article, they said it took 20 seconds for the car to “boot up” from a cold start. Has anyone else read anything to this effect?
sorry i dont havea link to the article
June 25th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
LOL. I couldn’t think of a funny response. Thanks for that and for asking one of the two questions asked today that I actually wanted answered.
The other was the IVER tooling will be used on the production line answer. An answer needed of course only due to Statiks constant doom and gloom predictions!
June 25th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
It’s always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.
=op
June 25th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
OMG, I can hardly breath.
The KING is dead. The KING is dead.
Please, join us while we have a moment of silence in honor of our King, Michael Jackson. May he Rest In Peace.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
I wonder where the other gas cap is? You know, the one for the gas?
June 25th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
@Thriller 51
Farah Fawcett too….
(
June 25th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Credit to GM for getting this far – I look forward to the Volts eventual launch.
Am not sure If Farrah is the right person to ask, but would like to know if GM are going to use the CSRIO Ultrabattery (lead acid with ultracapacitor) given that such a battery is significantly less expensive than li-ion and may facilitate a cheap hybrid/EV. If GM aren’t going to use that technology, why not.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
So the informative question/comments were by GM-Volt.com’ers
June 25th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Thanks for the kind words. I used my real name rather than my usual Cab Driver handle since that appeared to be expected for chat participants.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Say it ain’t so. I used to wear a t-shirt to school with Farrah on it, i wore it out. She was pretty hot back in the day, had that wild hairdo going on, all the girls in school tried to copy it but few succeeded. I think she was called Farrah Fawcett-Majors back then and was married to the six million dollar man.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
This is a link to the SAE J1772 electrical charging plug.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
June 25th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
If what the outside experts say is true (dielectric saturation) then an EESTor would look like it was working perfectly! – except that a car would only get 1 mile range instead of 100 miles…
June 25th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Ground Fault circuit breaker technology immediately cuts power within a split second. Any circuit can be protected this way, and, I am sure that this is certainly one thing that SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) has already specified, as will Underwriter’s Labs.
Dan.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
I was just checking out “allcarselectric.com”. The top post is about ground breaking for L.G.’s new battery plant. It states that L.G. will begin shipping cells to GM in November, 2010.
Which begs the question that, if cells leave Korea in November for Michigan, there to be assembled into packs, what is the impact of all of this on the actual delivery date of the first production Volts?
Just wondering.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
c’mon guys. The efficiency of AC vs. windows-down is a direct relationship of the speed of the car. As a car increases speed the drag increases. At 0mph, wind resistance is 0. As a car accelerates, it will cross a line where the “engine drag” created by the AC compressor is less than the drag created by having the windows down. So at low speeds, roll down your windows. On the Interstate, turn on the AC.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Thanks for the link – interesting read. I hadn’t been aware that there is a point of contention between 1 phase in US/Japan versus 3 phase in Europe.
As one of the wikipedia commenters points out, an onboard charger like the Volt has will have no problem getting 1.2 or 3.2 kilowatts from the 120 or 240 V single phase line to charge in 8 or 2.5 hours.
The issue is if you want to bypass the onboard charger to quick charge in a few minutes at a wattage many times as high. Of course the car manufacturer may not want to provide a 10 year 150,000 mile battery warranty using those very high charge rates.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Yes, the 400+lb battery is behind the front wheels.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
hi N Riley,
“ladder”
I was running out the door to get a haircut. So I failed to have a good look at the question post before sending. But it doesn’t matter. Mr, Farah didn’t get a chance to respond.
You know me by now. If the car is a belly dragger, I can’t see it being my daily driver. Was good to see Mr. Farah mention that springing and height are still being worked out. There is hope.
A small EREV SUV may be worth the wait.
BTW: Wouldn’t a little more info on solar charging systems have been fun to hear?
=D~
June 25th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Is there an answer in there? I’m having trouble seeing it.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
I ask also in the chat
June 25th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Neal suggested “reduce engine rpm as the speed of the car decreases”.
Andrew responded “Your suggestion clearly makes sense. People don’t want the car to act significantly different than what they are used to today.”
I take that as one way of saying “We’ll probably do something like you suggest.” JMHO.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Sheeesh…
You mean I’ve been begging ALL this time and I only needed to ask.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
4:10
[Comment From Tom Hayden ]
Are you driving the VOLT solely on battery power so far?
4:11
Andrew Farah: No, we’ve been driving the Volt on battery and generator. However, keep in mind, that when the generator is running, we’re still driving electric and the battery still plays a load leveling role.
********************
So, when the ICE kicks in, does it directly send electricity to the motor, or does it send it to the battery, which “load levels” it to the motor? I’m not clear on this.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
You’re right, and that’s absolutely one variable that can cause it to be more efficient, but I’m still not convinced that it’s that clear cut.
Even at 65mph, with different drag coefficients, different ICE, and different A/C compressor size, some vehicles may still be better with the windows rolled down.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
I think the heart attack was just a ruse. What probably happened is his face imploded – sort of like the planet Vulcan after it was inseminated with a BB-sized drop of “red matter.”
Seriously, we liked (and owned) a few of his early records, but this dude’s GPS was locked into “Weirdsville” and he was hell-bent on getting there. May his troubled soul rest in peace.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
It sends the power directly to the motor. A small amount will go to the battery to keep it partially charged.
There is a diagram of this somewhere if anyone can remember where it is. It shows the various flows, when and where, etc.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
I had to ‘take the day off,’ so I missed the chat, but this was a good question.
I think his answer speaks for itself, so I don’t have to comment and get a -57, lol.
/nice one Rick/Cab Driver
June 25th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
you know I am disappointed. I loved the concept car. But as GM has continued to deviate from the concept I have become less enamored with the car to the point that when I see that the charging port is just another gas cap cover, I can no longer stand it. I want a different car not a Honda civic electric conversion which is what the volt has become. The Cadillac Verij is closer to the concept car. As of seeing this I have decided to wait for the Verij or Tesla model-S. I wanted a different car and I wanted it to be obvious. But the car manufacturers are back into that we will tell the consumer what they want. Just for once I wish they would ask some genuine people what they want and not those focus groups that are built to support their preconcieved ideas.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
In the pic at the top of the page, there is a police vehicle
June 25th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Excellent chat. Some good details, although I hope they figure out a good system for the plug. It HAS to lock, otherwise people can do all sorts of stupid crap.*
*Again, sufficiently talented fools and people with bad intentions will still prevail in shocking themselves or something else by removing the plug, but engineers can’t help it. Reminds me of when I had to design a food cart elevator for a jet that was *NOT* intended for human travel. We had to make sure that flight attendants would not die from messing with it since we found out that older models were sometimes used by FAs who disabled safety systems with forks stuck in them and got themselves crushed. All to travel up like 5 feet when there were stairs right there. Sigh. I’m sure the manufacturer got sued as well.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Dielectric saturastion was tested for and shown non-existent. None
of the primittivity testing indicated anyhting wrong (not to say that it claimed everything was right). Topfer SAW the unit working. THAT’s
what all the skeptics claim we needed to see. We’ll see, we’ll see.
If this doen’t work then I’m positive the slippery surface MIT design will work – that definitely has been demoed.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a working prototype. The issues are production and cost feasibility.
From what I understand, the purity level required for their device is ridiculously high. This means is takes huge amounts of time and energy to produce.
As a comparison, look at silicon chips. The basic ingredient, silicon, is dirt cheap (literally). So why do silicon chips cost so much? It has to do with the time, energy, and complexity required to produce them.
So my prediction (FWIW) is that the EESU will become a reality, but not at a reasonable price, which means it will be used mainly in military applications.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Rating MPG for plug-ins doesn’t make sense. A better measure is gallons per year.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Prius ………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
June 25th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
I was just using the 50MPG as the early claim from the Volt people. I don’t care what it is, just that the representation be accurate :
so much MPG highway/city (which was always claimed to be virtually the same) and then the electric driving range (highway/city if you like – again they would apparently be very close) with a full battery charge. That tells the buyer exactly what they’re getting. A CAFE average MPG is inappropriate and useless and fraudulent if it leads the buyer to believe that that is the number they will obtain. Clearly that can’t be what they would obtain. There has already been a lot of bruhaha about those aftermarket Prius plugins – the buyers claiming that they aren’t getting the promised 100MPG. Duh.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I posted 2 questions. Neither were answered.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
This all has to do with the software that drives the induction motor. Nothing is really instantaneous, but the software will ramp up the power much faster than any gas engine.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/Volt_Electrical_Block_Diagram.jpg
June 25th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
If you want a car for looks, how about the Fisker Karma:
http://karma.fiskerautomotive.com/
June 25th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Please post links to those reports saying EEStor really does work. I would love to see all the critics proven wrong. I am not, however, interested in hearing someone say that someone else saw…
…and a Board member telling a fib to prop up a multi-million dollar fiasco is oh, so very plausible.
June 25th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
For every person who wants this car to be unique to the point of standing out visually as a “different” car, with every aspect as high tech as possible, there will be 10 people who want it to seem as much like a normal car as possible- if only to keep costs down. You can’t cater to everyone when you are targeting the masses, you cater to the masses. If the Volt is not for you, hopefully the Model S or the Fisker being more niche vehicles are.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
I think you were the only one of us to get a question in, Neal. I didn’t recognize any of those other screen names.
“sweets?”
June 25th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
The Volt may never make money for GM. The Volt may never make sense on a pure dollars and cents basis for it’s owners.
I said may.
If this seems like even a possible outcome, why do it at all (as many detractors here have said)?
The Volt program is all about proving something to the public at large; a solid assertion that an electric car is ready for prime time. At all speeds. For all drivers. In a real car, not a glorified golf cart. The last thing the Volt can be is peculiar, especially from a mainstream ownership perspective.
Once the point is driven home (I meant to do that), the follow on cars to Volt, such as the Converj, will bring home the bacon; and the country (including GM I hope) will benefit greatly.
Hopefully, later generations of Volt will make money for GM, and be an economically jusifiable purchase for it’s buyers.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Wow, before I could even say Dave G where are you!!!
June 25th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
somebody has to ask , so it might as well be me .
June 25th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
“May not” LOL!
June 25th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
When the output of the generator is greater than the immediate load requirement, the difference goes into the battery.
When the output of the generator is less than the immediate load, the difference comes from the battery.
This prevents the generator from having to match the power curve from one instant to the next, which would be less energy efficient and much more complex to engineer.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Be happy for once… yes I know the car isn’t in the show room yet… but this is progress, good progress
June 25th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Tesla has chips handshaking before the power flows. No all clear from the charger and the adapter, “NO POWER FOR YOU”. I suppose I should have asked Mr. Farah if he’s using an adapter with an intelligent chip or just a dumb plug.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
They are now saying that the Volt will be “introduced” by November 2010. I strongly suspect that any sellable Volts which exist by the end of that year will be delivered with great public fanfare to celebrities.
In the posting about the IV assembly line which Lyle visited recently, it appeared to me that installation of the battery is almost the last thing which is done. I expect that a lot of Volts could be ready for delivery within a couple of months of the new year following.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
I am not sure if I understand the Mythbusters reference, because I thought that they tested ICE vehicles, not EREV’s. In an ICE, it is debatable whether using the AC will reduce your mileage much, but if you are within an EREV’s AER, you will probably lose 10-15% of your 40 mile range. With an ICE your AC is a small parasitic load, but in all electric you are draining the battery directly, because the heat pump isn’t being driven off of a belt, it is taking electricity directly from the battery.
I am not interested in smart grid at all, even the relatively slight loss of battery life wouldn’t be worth the altruistic aspects of V2G. But being able to use my Volt as an emergency backup to power my house when a thunderstorm knocked out my electricity, that would have been nice.
I wish questions from Nasaman, Statik, Noel, Dan Petitt, Tag, et. al. had been used, they have a better grasp of what is important that hasn’t been explained so far.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
This was back when six million dollars was considered a lot of money.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Important to Lyle:
Many posters now do not recall the post where you explained about gravatars and how to set them up. The pics do make it easier to find replies to one’s own replies.
Please don’t put the gravatars back on the top level replies unless you’ve worked out a way to keep the thread from jumping up and down as the pictures load (the problem which sank the idea, originally).
June 25th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Man I’ve never seen this car before. If it is ever made, it will be a good looking car. But $87,900 is to much for me.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
I’ve seen GFI installed for 220V circuits used to power Hot Tubs (excuse me, Spas); that is one heavy load.
Note: GFI switches this large are not cheap.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Especially the one about whether a beer glass is half full or half empty!
June 25th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
I’ve heard of high-power electrics snapping steel shafts like pretzel sticks when no lag is built in. Hack at your own risk.
June 25th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
At one point several people expressed the opinion to Lyle that when avatars were used in the old format, the site slowed down considerably. Lyle is responsive to suggestions. I dunno maybe that impacted the use of avatars?
June 25th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
If the jet wasn’t intended for human travel, why were there Flight Attendants on board?
j/k
June 25th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
This is something that I think is really important that hasn’t been fully explained, probably because even GM engineers don’t know how it will work out with the production vehicles, and every driver will have slightly different results, due to driving style differences. I agree with zipdrive 100%, except for the ’small amount’ going to the battery statement. I think that if you are driving around town you will be using less than 30 hp a majority of the time. And the generator will be generating 70+ hp. All of the excess hp will be sending watts to the battery. I think, and the battery depletion graph we saw from GM about a year and a half ago showed, that the battery will be drawn down to 30%, but then the ICE will kick on for 6 or 7 minutes, but then the battery will charge up to 33% or so, and the ICE will shut off for 4 or 5 minutes. I think that the Volt will get 45 to 50 mpg when the ICE is operating, but it will get much better mileage than that overall, because the ICE will be shut off 30 or 40% of the time after the customer depletion point has been reached.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
I am actually quite pleased with all the happenings of the past couple days. These are important steps to be sure. So no real complaints from me.
…my interpretation of the timeline for the Volt is different from most, but it still needs to achieve the same benchmarks, jump over the same hurdles.
/all good
June 25th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
That’s a good point. Even if he COULD disclose certain things, why give it all away at once? That wouldn’t be any fun, would it?
June 25th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
I think you’re confused. Our King is the Volt. Or maybe, for some around here, it’s possibly Dr. Dennis.
BTW, if you’re interested in being “Volt King,” Lyle — then PLEASE don’t start wearing one white glove and moonwalking all over the place. It’s really not necessary!! Also you should feel free to skip the whole “slowly going creepy and crazy” routine, too. Thanks in advance.
Personally, I feel worse about Ed McMahon, Farrah Fawcett, and musician/songwriter Tim Krekel dying this week.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Even today, it could buy 150 shiny new Volts*. None too shabby!!
* = Based on $40k per Volt. Naturally, this doesn’t include any tax, title, license, $1k for delivery, low-availability sticker jack-up charges, etc.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Yeah, you could get two Volts for that (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
June 25th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
From your lips to God’s ear.
Be well,
Tagamet
June 25th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Well, to each his own I guess. Everytime I look at the Karma, I can’t get over that cheshire-cat grin it’s got for a grille. Definitely unique. Attractive? Ehhhh, IMHO, not so much.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
I know I’ll sleep better tonight (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
June 25th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
I’m thinking the new plant isn’t the only potential source for the cells. If nothing else, it represents an expansion of cell-making capacity.
After all, they have some cells already, and the plant’s not even built yet.
June 26th, 2009 at 12:21 am
They also were not going to use an industry standard charging port. Look how quickly that changed. V2G is not dead yet.
June 26th, 2009 at 12:37 am
Thanks for the transcript capt. Jack
How is it possible to chat for so long, and say so little?
June 26th, 2009 at 1:59 am
The photos show the gas filler above and behind the passenger side rear wheel.
June 26th, 2009 at 2:34 am
statik, you have asked this question here so often I just had to put it to Andrew. This Bud’s for you!
June 26th, 2009 at 2:40 am
OK, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification Jackson.
June 26th, 2009 at 3:14 am
DaveG, your diagram generally does a nice job of showing the flow of current in the different usage modes. Thanks for going to this effort.
I do have a couple quibbles however.
Specifically, The generator creates 3 phase AC at some voltage and frequency which are a function of the engine rpm and are NOT suitable for driving the traction motor. Therefore the output of the generator goes to the power electronics module where it is presumably full wave rectified into DC, run through a DC / DC converter to match the battery voltage, and put onto the DC bus. The power inverter takes this DC power (sourced by the rectified, DC / DC converted generator output and / or the battery) and converts it back to 3 phase AC at a different frequency and voltage as needed for the traction motor to produce the torque needed to increase / sustain / decrease the vehicle speed as indicated by the accelerator pedal position.
Similarly in regenerative braking the traction motor is used as a generator producing 3 phase AC at some voltage and frequency and sent to the power electronics module. This AC gets fullwave rectified, DC / DC converted to the voltage of the battery and then sent to the battery to partially recharge it.
None of this reduces the explanatory value of your diagram for illustrating the different usage modes. If you care to update the diagram it would be even better.
BTW, my apologies to the non engineers among the audience whose eyes have permanently glassed over reading my comment. Best wishes, and get well soon!
Thanks
June 26th, 2009 at 4:11 am
“altruistic aspects of V2G”
There is no altruism, the power company would pay you for using your battery.. Your car can even negotiate the price with the power company. Still not interested?
I think the AC will cut 2 miles at most from your range.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:21 am
The 10 mile battery must deliver the same amount of power (110kw) as the much larger 40 mile pack, yet still have the long warranty… this means high power and long life cells. Maybe the new A123 or Toshiba cells.. It may not be a lower cost way to go.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:32 am
it may also be uncomfortable to have full torque available instantaneously when you tap the throttle.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:39 am
It is amazing they have been so open all this time.. I am sure the competition is going thru everything with a fine comb. No Japanese company would have ever done anything like this, they could have not taken the years of criticism.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:50 am
“The Volt program is all about proving something to the public at large; a solid assertion that an electric car is ready for prime time. At all speeds. For all drivers. In a real car, not a glorified golf cart. The last thing the Volt can be is peculiar, especially from a mainstream ownership perspective.”
Excellent point Jackson, you nailed the philosophy behind the Volt exactly. The Volt must not have any excuses for naysayers to seize.
June 26th, 2009 at 5:52 am
In cars, the term “generator” has replaced the term “alternator”. These units generally have the power diodes built in.
I don’t believe there is a DC/DC converter in the generator path to the battery. I would think a DC/DC converter that works at over 130 amps would be quite a challenge to build. I’m certain there’s no DC/DC converter between the generator and battery in a normal car. So from what I understand, the generator (a.k.a. alternator) outputs directly onto the common DC bus.
The motor controller (a.k.a. inverter) does convert DC to 3 phases of “alternating current”, but the voltage on these 3 outputs is really a series of DC pulses, and there’s a lot of software complexity as to the timing of these pulses for an induction motor. By the way, DC brushless motors do the same thing, so the term AC and DC are somewhat meaningless in car traction motors. More on that here:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45
Anyway, I originally had the diagram showing these 3 wires, but it just seemed to confuse the main issue, so I ended up just butting the motor controller and motor blocks together to simplify things.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:05 am
The output of the gas engine is varied to match the demand of the electric motor. The ICE does not generate 70+ horsepower most of the time.
The ICE runs a one of several fixed RPMs, but note that the power output at a fixed RPM engine can vary greatly. For example, let’s say you are driving downhill and you adjust the accelerator to hold the car at 65mph, then you go uphill and hold the same 65mph without switching gears. In both cases, the engine RPM is the same, but going downhill requires much less power and gas than going uphill.
Having the Volt’s gas engine run at max power all the time would be bad for 3 reasons:
1) The engine would be loud.
2) The additional charging/discharging of the battery would wear out the pack sooner.
3) The additional charging/discharging of the battery would reduce efficiency, since there are some power losses involved in the electrical->chemical->electrical conversions.
So the charging and discharging of the battery is mainly used when the ICE power is not enough (i.e. for accelerating or driving fast uphill).
June 26th, 2009 at 6:34 am
Actually the charge controller is on the right front corner of the car, behind the front fascia, and using correctly sized wire would eliminate any loss concerns. More importantly, the charge door is on the opposite side as the gas door to avoid confusion.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:35 am
And here is where I don’t care. I have the heat. I hate the wind noise. I hate the road noise. My A/C is always on from May – October.
I too saw the Mythbusters episode. I didn’t like how they did the test.
They used one SUV with the windows done and the other with them up and the A/C on. The one with A/C did worse, but they should have switched vehicles and then do the test again. This would have prove there weren’t any anomalies in either vehicle
June 26th, 2009 at 6:53 am
The software is probably capable of ramping the power to the wheels up and down at a very fast rate but not instantaneously, the limiting factor would be the current draw from the battery and the limits of the mechanical components.
This ramp slope parameter will be fine tuned to protect the equipment but still give the driver a feeling of peppiness. The same principle applies to deceleration. When you let off the gas you would expect it to feel like a gas engine, not lurch forward because the decel ramp is too steep.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:07 am
some nice pictures of the Volt
http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/2011-chevy-volt-3/1362195/
June 26th, 2009 at 7:16 am
I agree that the AC on and the windows closed 95% of the time is likely the best economy. If excessive cabin heat is purged firstly, (like a GMC truck used to do when excessive cabin heat was sensed), just be sure to keep the AC on
“Recirculate” or “Maximum Cooling” (which uses A LOT LESS ENERGY!) that causes recirculation.
Why?
Because you are cooling down air that has already been cooled down.
Because you are dehumidifying air that has already been dehumidified.
Because you are cleaning out the dust, germs, pollution, and smells that the water/condensate collects, and drops all that down to the roadway for inside air that has already been cleaned already.
Because there is less wattage demand on the battery for an electric AC compressor (although we haven’t been told that’s what we are getting) for the compressor (even a mechanical one) for the compressor to be loaded down that UNNECESSARY 20% extra load for the higher temperature of *outside* (fresh [sic]) (not so fresh whatsoever) air.
The change of state of water vapor (humidity) to condensate uses a lot of energy. The “Recirculation” or “MAX” setting on the panel control ought to be used by everyone, and, it is a lot easier on the entire AC system BY FAR, so use that setting and forget completely that silly “study” which is severely compromised as to confounding variables.
So, I agree with Rashid. A LOT.
Dan.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Now saying “introduced by the end of 2010″
June 26th, 2009 at 7:20 am
If it going to look like every other car, and perform like every other car, it needs to work like every other car and cost the same as every other car. The latter being contrary to fact, maybe the former should be also.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:30 am
Yes, exactly.
The battery size obviously affects energy storage, which relates to the all-electric range. But battery size also affects the instantaneous power, which relates to acceleration.
The Volt uses an Atkinson tuned ICE with a max output of around 75hp. For acceleration and uphill power, the battery has to provide the other 75hp to power the 150hp electric motor, and it has to do it with the battery pack mostly depleated. In addition, the battery has to provide enough power to get you through a mointain pass, which is around 15 miles of uphill driving.
Bottom line: An EREV-10 probably doesn’t make sense. Without a fairly large battery, the EREV concept has problems.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:36 am
Herm, I hope you are right about the AC only taking 2 miles off the AER, and I bet GM is working to make the AC as efficient as possible, to make it so. I don’t think the heater will take as much off the AER, nor the lights, it is AC that is the main non-drive drain.
As for the V2G, I doubt that they will pay enough for even the slight drains that they would put on my battery. Maybe on the EREV’s second or third iteration, after the battery life is lengthened, I would do it, but the idea that my battery would be drained when I want it to be full just doesn’t feel right.
If I was driving a BEV with 120 mile AER, and it was for partial grid regulation, or smoothing the grid flow’s peaks and valleys with little real drain on my battery, maybe.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:36 am
so much confusion.. it is simple:
The Volt has a 400VDC power bus, this is connected to the battery. At full acceleration this power bus is carrying over 300 amps, it is thick cable over most of its length.
The generator makes 400VDC as needed, it can vary the output voltage slightly as needed, it can also run backwards as a motor and start the ICE. It has its own inverter/motor controller.. it looks a lot like the traction motor, just half the size. At full output it can pump 130Amps into the power bus.
The traction motor is driven by its dedicated inverter/motor controller, this device takes the 400VDC and makes 3 phase AC to drive the giant brushless motor.. it is also bidirectional and it can convert the brake energy recovered by the motor (acting as a generator at this time) into 400VDC and pump it back into the power bus. No idea how many amps it can pump back into the bus from brake recovery.. work it out from kinetic energy.
At this time it is unknown if the genset will turn-on to assist the power bus during times of heavy acceleration, it can supply 130Amps out of the 300Amps the traction motor will demand, this is a lot of power and it can make life easier for the expensive battery. Full acceleration is a noisy and rare event, so the driver may not notice the genset coming on.
The on-board charger is also connected to the power bus, it takes household voltages and generates 400VDC.
A future external quick charger would have to connect directly to the power bus.. as you can imagine this requires careful engineering since 400VDC at 300Amps is a very lethal combination.
The voltage at the bus will determine the direction the current will flow.. if the inverters raise the voltage then it goes into the battery.. if the inverters switch then they suck power out of the bus.
The two controller/inverters and the battery are the expensive components in the Volt.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:38 am
While GM is certainly working on the second generation Volt, I’m sure that the rollout of that will be extremely dependent on the success or failure of the first generation.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Nice explanation.
2 questions:
1) Are we sure that the generator requires it’s own motor controller? Could it be a simple PMG with diodes? I’ve tried to get an answer from GM on this for a while with no luck.
2) Has GM confirmed that the generator starts the ICE? Is it possible that the Volt uses a separate starter motor?
June 26th, 2009 at 7:53 am
I’m sorry prior obligations kept me from participating in this chat session’s EXCELLENT interchange with Andrew Farah! One question I’d have asked him (but he might not have answered) is as follows….
Bob Lutz, in a similar chat session, responded to a question about use of a transmission in the Volt by saying (paraphrasing) “the Volt will have a transmission unlike any other vehicle”. This reminded me that EVERY car needs a “passing gear” effect from 45-65 mph —Volt drivers would be very disappointed, and perhaps even be at risk, if they pulled over to pass & pressed the accelerator down hard but the car responded with disappointing (perhaps even dangerously-modest) acceleration! And if a “passing gear effect” could be incorporated by configuring the traction motor windings/drive currents in response to vehicle speed & throttle position, then a similar approach might also achieve the 20% performance improvement Frank Weber has said the final design will have — e.g., to bring its 0-60 time down from (say) 7.5 sec to 6.0 sec.
Andrew Farah speaks of an “exciting” driving experience here. I for one would be much more EXCITED if the Volt would “leap into action” when I trounced on the throttle! I’m hoping GM will surprise us with a gearless transmission for 1) improved 0-60 acceleration and 2) for passing! Anyone else agree?
June 26th, 2009 at 8:09 am
For someone as smart as you, how the heck did you miss that one? lol
June 26th, 2009 at 8:24 am
Very good questions (and replies) —sorry I missed this as well as the chat itself, but suggest anyone interested see my related question regarding “passing gear/transmission effect” (etc) in post #61.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:38 am
I ask the question if the Volt could spin it’s tires but it was not answered. Likely far to many questions to answer.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:38 am
hi nasaman,
The Volt 0-60 time will be over 8 seconds. GM initially forecast 8 seconds then amended to 8.5 seconds. In perspective, most 4 cylinder Japanese cars record 0-60 times of 9 seconds.
The balance being between getting 40 miles per charge and attaining performance acceleration. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a checkered flag color button in the Volt which can be pressed to go into “rabbit” mode.
Not to worry. The Volt is a very good beginning to future battery / horse power profiles. The next hurdle is to manufacture a solar receptor surface treatment, covering, or skin which will continually trickle charge the battery. Everyone West of the Rockies wants a vehicle with this feature. Getting back into your car after 9 hours of work to find that your battery has recharged up 1/4 is a very good thing. Getting stuck in traffic is no longer a fuel issue. People without a garage can reap the reward of owning EREV by parking in a sunny lot.
This leads us in a new direction. The world will be using clean natural gas to power electric generators. The sun will support our energy needs. Natural gas? Yes, the latest news is that large natural gas pockets have been discovered and that wells are currently sealed for later delivery. Huge supplies of natural gas running from Texas up to Illinois and over to New England. There have also been large wells found in Australia.
yes we can?
=D~
June 26th, 2009 at 8:41 am
One question now is “How many total questions were ask and by how many different posters?”
Any one know the answer to this? It would just be fun to know.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:41 am
If GM is still in bankruptcy courts a year from now, the Volt won’t happen, because GM will be truly defunct.
GM should be out of bankruptcy by the end of Summer.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Heeh, thanks Cab,
Nothing like making them sweat a little bit. You know he can’t make up a story or spin it because of the accountability that comes with having 1,500 odd people working there everyday and being able to see just exactly what is happening.
I still wonder why people can’t just own something and say, “we aren’t doing much of anything there yet” There is still no reason why he can’t take it further and say, “…but we will” That is fair ball.
The ‘dancing bear’ act just makes people more skeptical.
June 26th, 2009 at 9:32 am
The interesting thing is watching folks from the south come to Canada in the winter… you tell who they are… they turn the re-circ on with the heater and the car is iced up so badly they can barely see!
re-circ = bad in the winter.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
GM has not confirmed too many details.. I would assume the generator would need its own controller to operate at maximum efficiency at different RPM levels, but that is only an assumption since 53kw controllers are expensive. Also an asumption is that the generator is brushless.
Perhaps there is a second motor on the generator shaft, just for starting the ICE.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Getting stuck in traffic is not actually a problem with EVs, because there is no idling. You don’t waste any fuel waiting in line, except possibly if you do “stop and go” rapid acceleration.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
I’m quite sure that with a peak power of 110 kW and a top speed of 100 mph, you will have no problem passing on a highway. I heard that it only takes around 20 kW to maintain a constant highway speed.
June 26th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
DaveG and Herm, you guys make a good point about the lack of DC / DC converters in conventional cars so I’ll bow to your wisdom that the rectified voltage of the generator is compatible with the battery.
I also agree that in conventional cars the rectifier diodes are mounted internal to the generator housing and the output of the generator assembly is DC. However, I ask you to check out this photo of the Volt power electronics module and motor housing:
http://ftp.wieck.com/2009/GMC200901/GMC2009011084015_PV.jpg
It clearly shows that there are two sets of THREE orange high voltage cables connecting the PEM to the generator/traction motor/differential housing (one set for the generator plus another set for the traction motor). I think the only reasonable conclusion is that GM chose to put the 54kw rectifier in the PEM, presumably because of space and/or cooling considerations.
I could be wrong, but the photo seems inconsistent with the generator having the usual integrated rectifier. What do you guys think?
June 27th, 2009 at 5:51 am
The 150hp induction electric motor has 3 coils in the stator. Each coil has 2 electrical connections. So my guess is that’s what the 6 wires are for.
I guess you could tie one end of each coil to a common ground, but that might not give the motor controller the same amount of control/feedback as separate connections.
But we are all just making educated guesses here, so I could very well be wrong on this. The bottom line is that GM has provided very few details on the the generator, except that it generates 53kw max.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:10 am
Very clear, concise description but I disagree about the design complexity. I think the control software and algorithms to take best advantage of average power efficiencies while meeting other design constraints (customer experience, battery longevity, etc) is one biggest engineering challenges of the Volt.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Your point is well made and a glorified golf cart or ultra low Cd design like Aptera would have been too niche and too compromised IMO. I do believe GM mis-interpreted the public in assuming that the Volt HAD to be more mainstream to project a Green halo. While I am ecStatik the Volt will be built in any form, I do believe they would have been better served to do a Converj-like or EREV Camarro first. The Volt is mainstream in every non-EREV aspect, except cost. The current state of the tech just fits the higher performing, higher end market better. Mainstream Volt for gen 2 would have been perfect.
Regardless, I have been and will continue to strongly support GM in it’s Volt development.
WJGTVWOTR! Now let’s get them on the showroom floor.
NPNS! Start your own stimulus program, BUY NORTH AMERICAN!
June 28th, 2009 at 1:14 am
Dave, I agree with you that we’re just making educated guesses. The housing which contains the generator also contains the traction motor. The 2 sets of 3 orange high voltage cables are all that we see between the Power Electronics Module and the Motors housing. If all 6 were used for the traction motor that would leave none for the generator. That doesn’t seem right to me, but, as you say, it’s all guessing.
If you look at this photo from AutoblogGreen’s coverage of the battery lab opening you can see all the connectors on the nose of the battery pack:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/opening-of-the-new-gm-battery-lab/2069279/
In particular, the 2 orange rectangular connectors at the top are for the high voltage cables to the PEM and the charger. You can see that there are 2 contacts in each of these connectors. Presumably the 2 contacts are for the signal and return. All this is just to support the guess that the two sets of three orange cables between the PEM and Motors housing also have a signal and a return in each cable. I don’t know that, but it would explain how just one cable is provide for each of the 3 phases for the generator and the traction motor.
Time will tell how all this really works, but it is fun to try to puzzle it out from limited info. Thanks for sharing in the process!
Here’s a side note to that battery photo and Herm’s posting above “The Volt has a 400VDC power bus, this is connected to the battery.” There is a label shown in the photo which reads “360V”. I haven’t seen any pronouncement by GM of what the pack voltage actually is. Do you or Herm (or any other poster) have a clue what the pack voltage is?
June 29th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
hi i am kaiyum from bd
August 17th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Hey all, this all fascinating, and maybe even practical. But all I see here (in the Volt) is lithium ion batteries. If you recall Porsche, (yes that Porsche) designed a car called the Lohner-Porsche very nearly 100 years ago that used electric motors at both front wheels and an on-board generator to keep the batteries charged. He later added motore=s to the rear wheels for 4 wheel drive! He even had moderate racing success withe this car. The decline of electrics due to the limitations of batteries led him to copy Hans Ledwinka’s masterful rear drive Tatra to develope the volkswagen, Don’t be so busy looking forward that you forget to look back. How does burning fuel to run a generator to feed batteries increase the efficiency of the vehicle? perpetual motion? I see technology in the Prius, but what does the Volt have besides the ability to dance among the tallies and produce drastic “mileage” figures?