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Tesla CEO Elon Musk Wishes the Chevy Volt Well as His Company is Awarded $465 Million in DOE Loans
Elon Musk is the CEO of Tesla Motors, the company credited with jump starting the nascent electric car revolution, and inspiring Bob Lutz to conceive the Volt. Musk was the founder of PayPal who made his fortune by selling it, and besides Tesla also also founded a private space exploration company.
Musk is a man of opinion. He is not one to pull punches or shy away from controversy. He “appeared” on GM-Volt.com in the past when I once asked him why Tesla isn’t using a range-extender, and crossed paths with the Volt again on the David Letterman Show when Letterman at first bashed the Volt. Those comments were later rescinded by Letterman when he had Lutz and the Volt on the show.
Musk has decided to use his company’s blog to clear the air of all controversy. His main thrust was to dispel the claims of Martin Eberhard, Tesla’s former CEO, who is now suing the company for breech of contract, libel, and slander. While he was at it, in a very long diatribe, Musk also told the world Tesla is about to become profitable. Appearing among several other email footnotes, F to be specific, was…well, me.
“Although I sometimes disagree with the specifics of their strategy, I’m also glad to see many of the major OEM’s moving forward with either semi or fully electric car programs,” writes Musk. “The faster the industry transitions to electric, the better for the world. It is distressing when my comments about the Volt or plug-in hybrids in general are construed as an attack, rather than simply explaining, only when asked, why Tesla has chosen an all electric path. The Volt is in a different market segment from the Model S, but even if it weren’t, I would still wish it well (email F below).”
If you you want to read the actual email F interchange between Musk and myself he has published it for the world to see, and appears at the end of his post. About it all he writes:
A lot of nonesense has been written about me attacking the Volt. It stemmed from a response I wrote to questions from Lyle Dennis, who runs the GM-Volt.com commentary website. Lyle wrote a blog posting that was actually pretty reasonable and not inflammatory. However, several other bloggers either intentionally or unintentionally recharacterized that posting as me launching an attack against the Volt.
The problem was exacerbated by the Letterman show, where Dave went on the attack against the Volt. Perhaps I should have tried to defend it, but I could barely get a word in edgewise at times and my main goal was promoting the Model S. I couldn’t even get in my “important point” at the end of the show! The point I was trying to make was that an electric car has a cost of operation that is much less than a gasoline car, since electricity is way cheaper than gasoline. Also, I made an offhand comment at a small talk I gave in Silicon Valley where I said one of the reasons we went pure electric was out of concern that the engine in a plug-in hybrid would feel like a lawnmower, since it would have to run at high rpm and work hard for its size. This was a small audience, but the event was recorded and posted to a website. From there, the same set of bloggers again inaccurately portrayed this as another big attack on the Volt.
Let me be clear that I wish the Volt and any other semi-electric or electric cars well. Whether you care about national security, balance of payments, the high long term cost of oil or the environment, the answer is still that the car industry needs to make the transition and sooner is better. Obviously, Tesla has its reasons for pursuing a purely electric path and I articulate those in the email below, but the automotive sector is (still) a very big industry and there is plenty of room for other solutions too.
Source (Tesla)
Tesla Awarded Government Retooling Loans
The Department of Energy also announced today that Tesla will be receiving $465 million in DOE government loans it requested for building the Model S assembly plant. $365 million will be used for mass production of the $57,000 sedan which is expected to begin in 2011. $100 million will be used for a powertrain manufacturing plant.
The so-called $25 billion ATVM or retooling loans were first approved during the Bush administration era.
The other two recipients for now include Ford who gets $5.9 billion and Nissan who is getting $1.6 billion. Both companies will use the funds to advance their electric car programs.
GM and Chrysler did not receive first round financing becasue they are not currently considered viable due to bankrupcty. It is expected they will particiate in the second round. In fact GM’s business plans indicates an expectation of $5.7 billion in these loans between 2010 and 2013.
June 23rd, 2009 at 6:10 am
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:16 am
Hip, hip, hooray!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:17 am
OK GM volt.com bloggers.. Fresh meat.. Lets begin “intentionally or unintentionally” recharacterizing this latest posting.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:26 am
In the end, I still feel like electric cars don’t fit “everyone” in some single form, so we need all-electric vehicles, plug-in hybrids, and EREVs, until there’s a breakthrough that would allow a standardization of the format in electric cars, to say, 100% gas free.
For my driving needs, and to not have multiple vehicles, the solution is the Volt. For others, it may be a Tesla, and for others yet, neither.
So until a breakthrough comes along to provide production-proof long range, instant charging, and economies of scale, I say to all types of electric car manufacturers and enthusiasts, “Same team, same team!”
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:31 am
Hmmm. Perhaps some of that $350MM for Tesla will go toward a different battery design
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At least Tesla did a fine job (IMHO) on the styling for the S. It is a fine looking car.
Unrelated item…noticed on MSNBC Squalk Box scroll this morning that GM plans to request from Magna International (parts supplier that is buying major chunk of Opel) an option to buy that back. Guess that might be a long-range goal after clearing bankruptcy…maybe they worked that all out beforehand…
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:40 am
“The engineer talking stated it is not a sound design philosophy to solder 6000 batteries end to end.”
Actually i think the guy in the GM lab added to that comment something like “for large production”; which is the case for the Volt but not yet the Tesla. Further, if the “soldering” is automated, you will improve quality, which is why they are moving production of the battery pack back to the States. In this regard, I’m sure the Model S will learn a lot from the production cycle of the Tesla, and perhaps other electric cars.
Which ever way you look at it, Elon Musk should rightly be credited for the for what the Tesla has done for the electric car industry.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:49 am
Tesla has well heeled customers for the Roadster and for the Model S. Even though I have greatly enjoyed learning about Tesla’s products and proposed products, I see is no justification for public financing of this company.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:52 am
I do not think that Tesla is a bad company, and since I do not really know Mr. Musk, I would not make personal statements about him.
The problem is that his cars are expensive toys for very upper income people who can afford to have lots of cars in their garages. His production volumes will never be that high, so it will not make that much of a difference in the amount of oil saved.
Even at $40K, the Volt is at the upper end of the spectrum for most people that buy a car for regular transportation. However, it has a few advantages over the Tesla vehicles:
1. It can be purchased as a replacement vehicle and used for a daily driver as an all electric vehicle. But if you need to take a long trip, it is ready for your use as a high MPG vehicle. That is really just not possible with any BEV.
2. Once they get the first 10K vehicles on the road in the first production run, GM can get some real world exprience on how the vehicle performs and the maintenance it requires. They will then be able to work on next generation vehicles in much higher volumes using true mass production techniques to lower the cost for more mainsteam buyers. GM simply has capabilities that Tesla does not in this regard.
3. The “major” manufacturers have worldwide sales and service capabilities. Tesla can be purchased and serviced in only a few areas. It will take a long time to develop that kind of sales and service force.
$350 million is not enough to overcome these problems. And with only 250 employees, there are just not enough hands available to do the job.
JMHO
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:00 am
Just to be clear Elon Musk did not found Tesla Motors. That title of founder falls too Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning. Elon is however the primary financial backer, and more power too him. There has been a lot of debate within the Tesla Blog-o-sphere about Elon attempting to claim the mantel of “founder” instead of “fund-er” so I just want to make the correction here in as gentle a way as possible before someone else jumps on your implied statement at the head of this post.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:03 am
Tesla is on a roll!
Model S, Daimler investment (and possible Porsche investment) and now government loans to build the CA factory that will produce the Model S.
Let’s hope Musk picks a good Operations guy that can build a factory and produce a car – I expect there are plenty he can cherry pick from Chrysler, Ford and GM.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:21 am
I’m glad to be able to read Elon’s clarifications of what happened on Letterman’s show and elsewhere. Anyone who has ever given some sort of interview with media, especially technical people (like me), are never, never, ever able to concisely package any technical topic. It all gets repackaged down to near-nonsense, all because “it is too technical”. (That’s why I’m very thankful for this site! Because I am allowed to write to my hearts content!)
This is made even more impossible when the show host still needs to “showboat” “big smile” “get all laughs”.
This really exonerates Elon’s dilemma for me, and I now understand what he had to deal with.
Technology requires depth of thinking in the left hemisphere. Some are gifted for it, some are gifted in the historical hemisphere (right brain). This site will allow all people to go back and to try to understand the deeper technical contexts ,in their own ways, for history.
It is this site that will allow for the historical in-depth contexts (with the new reply-inset design) for history to analyze our current evolutionary transition to green electric motoring, in context of the great imperfections of human language where messages become increasingly imperfect with every relaying of them.
Very Best wishes Mr. Musk.
Dan.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:24 am
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Would Tesla be better off outsourcing the manufacturing of the Model S?
The Tesla Model S coming online by 2011 is a very significant accelerant in the Electric Car Revolution.
I do wonder about Tesla’s decision to get in the car manufacturing business….especially trying to build cars in the state of California which has a reputation of making it very expensive to operate any type of manufacturing.
Also, Tesla manufacturing its own cars will require Tesla to go through a big learning curve at a dollar cost and time cost that is impossible to containerize. It makes me wonder if the Fisker approach of outsourcing the Karma build would be a better approach for the Tesla Model S.
Reading from Lyle’s above article, I’m guessing that Mr. Musk now has a PR handler/coach explaining things too Elon like why its not a good idea to go negative on the Volt (a car built by a company owned by the Government) while at the same time getting funds from the Government. I fell sorry for however that PR person is….it would be like having a job walking around with live hand grenades sans safety pins.
The Tesla Model S is a very sweet car!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:35 am
Lyle Dennis…the man who tore apart Tesla.
I don’t know if it is just me, but I am happier to see Lyle and the site getting exposure through the Musk/Eberhard sage, over the specific Tesla news. Any exposure is good exposure…right?
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As for Tesla getting the 350 million, I think I’m starting to lose track about how I really feel about this kind of government intervention/handout. I’m so numb to billions of dollars going out everywhere that my first thought is, “well heck, why shouldn’t they get their piece of the pie too”…which clearly is not the way to look at this.
On the other hand, Musk has a pretty good track record of making money, so it might not be a bad investment in the long wrong…only then I remember that the government isn’t there to be a venture capitalist.
So does that mean I disapprove of the 350 million dollar loan? Actually no, but I find myself having to step away from the fiscal logic and into the realm of intangibles.
For starters, Tesla only builds one thing, electric cars…and the government wants to back green programs, so it will go 100% to its intended target (and to a project that is about as green as it gets).
The other DOE loans that go to big automakers like Ford, Nissan (and eventually GM, Chrysler, battery makers), have a way of just displacing money, and end up going to other things (like paying salaries, keeping the lights on, or indirectly funding a new SUV line). I’m not saying the money doesn’t get to its intended target, just nowhere near 100%. (A good example is GM is asking for 10.1 billion from the DOE, are they planning on having everyone use gold plated hammers and diamond tipped pens while working on the Volt and its two sister cars?)
And the other reason I’d give them the money has nothing to do with cars at all. The goverment and Musk are partners in another important partnership, and the government needs to foster/maintain and support its partners when it is possible/logical.
Namely, SpaceX. So why not loan your partner some money for another project? The government doing it (DOE loans) it to make a buck, but relatively speaking it might not be a bad investment, and that still brings me back to reason number one…even if the money doesn’t get repaid, it is still going to their ‘pet project’
(SpaceX won the COTS contract from NASA 2-3 years ago, and the CRS contract last year, which is to supply the space center and do ’shuttle’ runs in 2011 when NASA retires their shuttles…basically Musk is the government’s ride into space until they get their new rides in 2015ish w/the Constellation program)
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:42 am
In the second last paragraph it should read, “…The government IS NOT doing it (DOE loans) it to make a buck”
…not ‘doing it to make a buck,’ lol
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:42 am
Off topic ALLCARSELECTRIC
Bob Lutz is featured talking about cars in general and to some extent the Volt. I fear that he still has no idea of how big Voltec is going to be. Combine that with the Tesla and Karma type electric cars that are going to [ IMO ] blow away the big rumbling V-8, sexy car market that our builders use to enjoy. Add to the great looks of Tesla and Karma type cars a severe gas shortage or another extreme price hike. The result will be many more buyers like me who no longer want to be controled by the oil companys and speculators. And this change in car/buyers attitude will be fast. And GM, Ford, Chysler better be ready with all types of electric cars.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:43 am
Certainly I’m not closely following Tesla, but is it my imagination, or does the Tesla vs. Volt discussion seem to come up a lot?
I don’t hear Tesla vs. Amptera, Fisker, Mini, iMEV, or any other BEV or EREV. Just comparisons to the Volt.
In the transition to electrification, E-REV’s will be more mainstream than BEV’s, and I think Elon knows this.
I think most of us know that the key to successful EV’s is the batteries. GM is going beyond the norm by building a very robust battery with cooling, heating, and monitoring at the individual cell level. They have made a major investment in the battery lab, and are gaining significant knowledge on battery chemistry, support systems, and longevity.
This has to be intimidating for a smaller company, who cannot hope to achieve this level of R&D in a rapidly emerging field.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:57 am
Thank you for that clarification Mr. Musk, Let’ all support one another in this movement toward electrification of the automobile.
We Americans are all in this together. Not to mention the rest of the world.
Good luck Mr. Musk!
Go Tesla!
Go Chevy Volt!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 7:59 am
Uh, emm, yehhh, nah, I got nothin.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:13 am
Between all-electric vehicles, plug-in hybrids, and EREVs, I believe most people will choose EREVs, by a large percentage.
Pure BEVs have obvious range anxiety issues, and the fast-charging and battery swapping concepts have serious engineering flaws.
Plug-in hybrids don’t offer enough benefit over regular hybrids to justify their extra cost and the hassle of plugging in.
EREVs will eliminate 80% of most people’s gasoline use. That’s a BIG deal.
As others have stated, EREVs can warm or cool the battery in extreme temperatures. Within the next 5-10 years, battery pack costs should come down to only 1/4 of what they are now, which means EREVs will be cost competitive.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 am
Public financing is more than just for companies doing buisness as usual. Here Tesla brought to us the ability and the foresight to do something different and has inspired those to look at the plugin alternative. Call it research and development, call it what you want, but I would rather loan my money to a company that is on the Bleeding Edge than to some Bank that is failing due to its own deceptive practices.
Jay
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 am
I like the Tesla Roadster. It’s a true pioneering product that will go down in the history of the auto industry. Elon Musk is like one of those guys in the early 1900s who was tinkering with IC engines and ended up creating a big company and changing the whole transportation world.
I hope Tesla becomes a big auto company someday. It might be like the Porsche of electric cars. Who knows, maybe someday if the battery costs go down dramatically, lots of people will be able to get a car with the performance of the Tesla Roadster. It’s expensive right now, but I’m betting that in 10 years or so, Tesla cars could be real possibilities for average middle class people.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:18 am
Dr. Dennis has helped Tesla a great deal. Look at the internet test drive video. All I hear is “wow” and “this is tight” comments on his test drive. How does this come across as being negative?
On the other hand. Mr. Musk refers to the Volt as a “hybrid” and continues to refer to the Volt as being bulky. I like both the Tesla and the Volt. Each is suited for what is expected of it.
As far as government funding goes. This entire TARP situation is a nightmare. Who decided to bypass the Constitution of the United States and start shoveling billions of tax dollars into private companies? Why did both McCain and Obama endorse TARP prior to the election?
=D~
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:24 am
What a shame that the evolution of the battery for transportation was basically stalled when the internal combustion engine and cheap oil were paired up at the beginning of the last century. Imagine how much better off we would be today if cars/trucks ran on electricity instead of fossil fuels. (I sound like John Lennon’s song). Imagine where battery technology would be today if we had 100 years of development like the internal combustion engine. There is a lot of catching up to do and companies like Tesla and GM are the ones that will have to fast track the technology in order for it to become mainstream, reliable and affordable. Technology like EESTOR promises would be the game changer. Unfortunately, it may still be a long way off to compete with fossil fuels…..
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:25 am
Re …”I find myself having to step away from the fiscal logic and into the realm of intangibles. ‘…
Welcome to MY world! (LOL). It’s so good to see a little of the Yang in your Yin. Let’s hope it’s a slippery slope. I could use the company (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:44 am
I have read the Musk blog over at the Tesla website, and I am walking away thinking that it was very, very good at clarifying a great deal of misconceptions flying around. Perhaps it should have been done much sooner rather than later, although to Musk’s credit, he certainly has a lot of bigger fish to fry than dealing with all of the speculations that abound. It is unfortunate to see the drama between Musk and Eberhard, although providing everything Musk said was truthful, the dismissal of Eberhard seemed warranted. It would be nice to say at this point that all of that is “water under the bridge”, but being that Eberhard is pursuing this lawsuit, there will be much more drama to ensue.
I was very happy to see Musk’s clarifications on his feelings on the Volt. I see his points, but would still choose a Volt over an All Electric at this time since the Volt better fits our situation. That being said, it was refreshing to see him showing respect for a differing approach to EV’s, and “wishing it well”.
My respect for Musk has increased after reading his blog.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:54 am
Agreed — the TARP program is a nightmare.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 8:56 am
Namely, SpaceX. So why not loan your partner some money for another project? The government doing it (DOE loans) it to make a buck, but relatively speaking it might not be a bad investment, and that still brings me back to reason number one…even if the money doesn’t get repaid, it is still going to their ‘pet project’
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This is a reason for an auto loan? If the feds have to do something, how about simply increasing the incentives for purchasing an electric car?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:01 am
Off topic:
I see that Buick has added the direct injection 2.4 L 180 hp engine availability with the six speed transmission for the LaCrosse. It gets 20 city, 30 highway. Now if GM licensed the HSD, the highway mileage would only be expected to improve a mile per gallon or so, but the city mileage would improve by nearly 50%, so perhaps it would get 28 City/31 Highway. Not bad for a 4000 lb car. And with the added 40 hp, it would be powerful.
So the question is: Would the two mode hybrid transmission developed for FWD be an improvement for the LaCrosse?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:03 am
I completely agree. I range was frustration to alright anger at what the elected officials and the unelected czar/dictators and the decisions they are making. It just doesn’t make any sense.
The days of Jefferson/Madison/Andrew Jackson.Lincoln haven’t been around for a long time… time to return to them. Small government built to support the small businesses.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:12 am
I do not believe Tesla will be successful long term under its current leadership. Musk does not strike me as one who genuinely respects fellow humans. Rather, he regards them as objects for his own pursuits who are either for or against him (real or perceived). When things hit a snag, he does not lose sleep throwing you in his virtual trash bin.
There was a time when I would give a lot for the opportunity to invest in the company. I checked the company blog every day and enjoyed Martin’s way of communicating. After he was fired and the more I observed Musk’s public character, but the more I wanted to avoid the site and any idea that I would invest or buy a car from them in the future.
I am sure Tesla operates not significantly different from other companies, but maybe the shattering of my idealization of a new, revolutionary car company left a particularly sour taste in my mouth.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:17 am
Maybe it would be a great idea for you to loan Tesla money. Others might think the same, so good for them also. All the more reason not to lend (give away) taxpayer money.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:19 am
Jim, Auto Cars in the beginning were very much interesting toys that ONLY the rich could afFORD. Even Henry Ford’s first cars were costly mechanical affairs. Tesla made a point to go high end first, like Ford and then make autos that cost less like the S. And the Volt is also at the high end of what most can afford but I point to computers/calculators of which were extraordinary in costs, complexity etc. in the beginning. And they too were toys/tools for the rich. Now everyplace and soon to be looking for Sarah Conner.
So, the advent of this exciting resurgence of electric powered auto cars is repleat with technical, manufacturing, distribution… complications, oh well that is life. If it is only major companies that are logical then what of APPLE Computer and two geeky guys in a garage? IBM would be the logical choice… .
In a capitalist market, this is the game that is afoot. I say jolly goode!
Regards!—-Higgins
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:24 am
Problem is like you, I don’t have a say where the money the government has collected from me goes. So if its going to go somewhere, may it be somewhere that collectively gives us a great inivative tool for the future.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:24 am
I would tend to agree. I think EREVs are the best compromise today to maximize electricity use while minimizing the need for consumers to change their expectations of a vehicle.
That expectation remaining the same is probably the most important aspect to gaining widespread acceptance of electric vehicles.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:27 am
It’s like being the first coupler in a long train.
I don’t think their configuration is really this bad. Since a lot of the batteries are also in parallel, there’s a lot less to deal with in terms of current for any individual battery on one of the many series configurations that are then tied in parallel.
I was actually under the impression that their pack design allows for each individual battery to only experience a load comparable to that of a computer laptop battery, but I can’t remember where I heard that, if I even did.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 am
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#12 Statik Said:
“As for Tesla getting the 350 million, I think I’m starting to lose track about how I really feel about this kind of government intervention/handout. I’m so numb to billions of dollars going out everywhere that my first thought is, “well heck, why shouldn’t they get their piece of the pie too”…which clearly is not the way to look at this.”
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My Oct/2008 David Crockett post comes to mind. Repost:
What got us here?
Answer:
The following is a true tale of Davy Crockett in which the Old Tennessee bear hunter meets up with the Constitution of the United States:
[Source: Condensed from the 1884 The Life of Colonel David Crockett by Edward S. Ellis.]
…Crockett was then the lion of Washington. I was a great admirer of his character, and, having several friends who were intimate with him, I found no difficulty in making his acquaintance. I was fascinated with him, and he seemed to take a fancy to me.
I was one day in the lobby of the House of Representatives when a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support, rather, as I thought, because it afforded the speakers a fine opportunity for display than from the necessity of convincing anybody, for it seemed to me that everybody favored it. The Speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett arose. Everybody expected, of course, that he was going to make one of his characteristic speeches in support of the bill. He commenced:
“Mr. Speaker–I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the sufferings of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money.
“Some eloquent appeals have been made to us upon the ground that it is a debt due the deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long after the close of the war; he was in office to the day of his death, and I have never heard that the government was in arrears to him. This government can owe no debts but for services rendered, and at a stipulated price. If it is a debt, how much is it? Has it been audited, and the amount due ascertained? If it is a debt, this is not the place to present it for payment, or to have its merits examined. If it is a debt, we owe more than we can ever hope to pay, for we owe the widow of every soldier who fought in the War of 1812, precisely the same amount.
“There is a woman in my neighborhood, the widow of as gallant a man as ever shouldered a musket. He fell in battle. She is as good in every respect as this lady, and is as poor. She is earning her daily bread by her daily labor; but if I were to introduce a bill to appropriate five or ten thousand dollars for her benefit, I should be laughed at, and my bill would not get five votes in this House. There are thousands of widows in the country just such as the one I have spoken of, but we never hear of any of these large debts to them. Sir, this is no debt. The government did not owe it to the deceased when he was alive; it could not contract it after he died.
“I do not wish to be rude, but I must be plain. Every man in this House knows it is not a debt. We cannot, without the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as a charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much of our own money as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week’s pay to the object, and if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more than the bill asks.”
He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage, and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and as, no doubt, it would, but for that speech, it received but few votes, and, of course, was lost.
Like many other young men, and old ones too, for that matter, who had not thought upon the subject, I desired the passage of the bill, and felt outraged at its defeat. I determined that I would persuade my friend Crockett to move a reconsideration the next day.
Previous engagements preventing me from seeing Crockett that night, I went early to his room the next morning and found him engaged in addressing and franking letters, a large pile of which lay upon his table.
I broke in upon him rather abruptly, by asking him what devil had possessed him to make that speech and defeat that bill yesterday. Without turning his head or looking up from his work, he replied:
“You see that I am very busy now; take a seat and cool yourself. I will be through in a few minutes, and then I will tell you all about it.”
He continued his employment for about ten minutes, and when he had finished he turned to me and said:
Now, sir, I will answer your question. But thereby hangs a tale, and one of considerable length, to which you will have to listen.”
I listened, and this is the tale which I heard:
“Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the Capitol with some other members of Congress, when our attention was attracted by a great light over in Georgetown. It was evidently a large fire. We jumped into a hack and drove over as fast as we could. When we got there, I went to work, and I never worked as hard in my life as I did there for several hours. But in spite of all that could be done, many houses were burned and many families made homeless, and, besides, some of them had lost all but the clothes they had had on. The weather was very cold, and when I saw so many women and children suffering, I felt that something ought to be done for them, and everybody else seemed to feel the same way.
“The next morning a bill was introduced appropriating $20,000 for their relief. We put aside all other business and rushed it through as soon as it could be done. I said everybody felt as I did. That was not quite so; for, though they perhaps sympathized as deeply with the sufferers as I did, there were a few of the members who did not think we had the right to indulge our sympathy or excite our charity at the expense of anybody but ourselves. They opposed the bill, and upon its passage demanded the yeas and nays. There were not enough of them to sustain the call, but many of us wanted our names to appear in favor of what we considered a praiseworthy measure, and we voted with them to sustain it. So the yeas and nays were recorded, and my name appeared on the journals in favor of the bill.
“The next summer, when it began to be time to think about the election, I concluded I would take a scout around among the boys of my district. I had no opposition there, but, as the election was some time off, I did not know what might turn up, and I thought it was best to let the boys know that I had not forgot them, and that going to Congress had not made me too proud to go to see them.
“So I put a couple of shirts and a few twists of tobacco into my saddlebags, and put out. I had been out about a week and had found things going very smoothly, when, riding one day in a part of my district in which I was more of a stranger than any other, I saw a man in a field plowing and coming toward the road. I gauged my gait so that we should meet as he came to the fence. As he came up I spoke to the man. He replied politely, but, as I thought, rather coldly, and was about turning his horse for another furrow when I said to him: ‘Don’t be in such a hurry, my friend; I want to have a little talk with you, and get better acquainted.’ He replied:
” ‘I am very busy, and have but little time to talk, but if it does not take too long, I will listen to what you have to say.’
“I began: ‘Well, friend, I am one of those unfortunate beings called candidates, and–’
” ‘Yes, I know you; you are Colonel Crockett. I have seen you once before, and voted for you the last time you were elected. I suppose you are out electioneering now, but you had better not waste your time or mine. I shall not vote for you again.’
“This was a sockdolager. . . . . I begged him to tell me what was the matter.
” ‘Well, Colonel, it is hardly worth-while to waste time or words upon it. I do not see how it can be mended, but you gave a vote last winter which shows that either you have not capacity to understand the Constitution, or that you are wanting in the honesty and firmness to be guided by it. In either case, you are not the man to represent me. But I beg your pardon for expressing it in that way. I did not intend to avail myself of the privilege of the constituent to speak plainly to a candidate for the purpose of insulting or wounding you. I intend by it only to say that your understanding of the Constitution is very different from mine; and I will say to you what, but for my rudeness, I should not have said, that I believe you to be honest. . . . But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields power and misinterprets it is more dangerous the more honest he is.’
” ‘I admit the truth of all you say, but there must be some mistake about it, for I do not remember that I gave any vote last winter upon any constitutional question.’
” ‘No, Colonel, there’s no mistake. Though I live here in the backwoods and seldom go from home, I take the papers from Washington and read very carefully all the proceedings of Congress. My papers say that last winter, you voted for a bill to appropriate $20,000 to some sufferers by a fire in Georgetown. Is that true?’
” ‘Certainly it is, and I thought that was the last vote which anybody in the world would have found fault with.’
” ‘Well, Colonel, where do you find in the Constitution any authority to give away the public money in charity?’
“Here was another sockdolager; for, when I began to think about it, I could not remember a thing in the Constitution that authorized it. I found I must take another tack, so I said:
” ‘Well, my friend; I may as well own up. You have got me there. But certainly nobody will complain that a great and rich country like ours should give the insignificant sum of $20,000 to relieve its suffering women and children, particularly with a full and overflowing Treasury, and I am sure, if you had been there, you would have done just as I did.’
” ‘It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has nothing to do with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be intrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by a tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means. What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can ever guess how much he pays to the government.
” ‘So you see, that while you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands who are even worse off than he. If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $20,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you are at liberty to give to any and everything which you may believe, or profess to believe, is charity, and to any amount you may think proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for robbing the people on the other.
” ‘No, Colonel, Congress has no right to give charity. Individual members may give as much of their own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been burned in this county as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other member of Congress would have thought of appropriating a dollar for our relief. There are about two hundred and forty members of Congress. If they had shown their sympathy for the sufferers by contributing each one week’s pay, it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of wealthy men in and around Washington who could have given $20,000 without depriving themselves of even a luxury of life. The congressmen chose to keep their own money, which, if reports be true, some of them spend not very creditably; and the people about Washington, no doubt applauded you for relieving them from the necessity of giving by giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to Congress, by the Constitution, the power to do certain things. To do these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the Constitution.’ ”
“I have given you,” continued Crockett, “an imperfect account of what he said. Long before he was through, I was convinced that I had done wrong. He wound up by saying:
” ‘So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly, but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you.’
“I tell you I felt streaked. I saw if I should have opposition, and this man should go on talking, he would set others to talking, and in that district I was a gone fawn-skin. I could not answer him, and the fact is, I was so fully convinced that he was right, I did not want to. But I must satisfy him, and I said to him:
” ‘Well, my friend, you hit the nail upon the head when you said I had not sense enough to understand the Constitution. I intended to be guided by it, and thought I had studied it fully. I have heard many speeches in Congress about the powers of Congress, but what you have said here at your plow has got more hard, sound sense in it than all the fine speeches I ever heard. If I had ever taken the view of it that you have, I would have put my head into the fire before I would have given that vote; and if you will forgive me and vote for me again, if I ever vote for another unconstitutional law I wish I may be shot.’
“He laughingly replied: ‘Yes, Colonel, you have sworn to that once before, but I will trust you again upon one condition. You say that you are convinced that your vote was wrong. Your acknowledgment of it will do more good than beating you for it. If, as you go around the district, you will tell people about this vote, and that you are satisfied it was wrong, I will not only vote for you, but will do what I can to keep down opposition, and, perhaps, I may exert some little influence in that way.’
” ‘If I don’t,’ said I, ‘I wish I may be shot; and to convince you that I am in earnest in what I say, I will come back this way in a week or ten days, and if you will get up a gathering of the people, I will make a speech to them. Get up a barbecue, and I will pay for it.’
” ‘No, Colonel, we are not rich people in this section, but we have plenty of provisions to contribute for a barbecue, and some to spare for those who have none. The push of crops will be over in a few days, and we can then afford a day for a barbecue. This is Thursday; I will see to getting it up on Saturday week. Come to my house on Friday, and we will go together, and I promise you a very respectable crowd to see and hear you.’
” ‘Well, I will be here. But one thing more before I say good-by. I must know your name.’
” ‘My name is Bunce.’
” ‘Not Horatio Bunce?’
” ‘Yes.’
” ‘Well, Mr. Bunce, I never saw you before, though you say you have seen me, but I know you very well. I am glad I have met you, and very proud that I may hope to have you for my friend. You must let me shake your hand before I go.’
“We shook hands and parted.
“It was one of the luckiest hits of my life that I met him. He mingled but little with the public, but was widely known for his remarkable intelligence and incorruptible integrity, and for a heart brimful and running over with kindness and benevolence, which showed themselves not only in words but in acts. He was the oracle of the whole country around him, and his fame had extended far beyond the circle of his immediate acquaintance. Though I had never met him before, I had heard much of him, and but for this meeting it is very likely I should have had opposition, and had been beaten. One thing is very certain, no man could now stand up in that district under such a vote.
“At the appointed time I was at his house, having told our conversation to every crowd I had met, and to every man I stayed all night with, and I found that it gave the people an interest and a confidence in me stronger than I had ever seen manifested before.
“Though I was considerably fatigued when I reached his house, and, under ordinary circumstances, should have gone early to bed, I kept him up until midnight, talking about the principles and affairs of government, and got more real, true knowledge of them than I had got all my life before.
“I have told you Mr. Bunce converted me politically. He came nearer converting me religiously than I had ever been before. He did not make a very good Christian of me, as you know; but he has wrought upon my mind a conviction of the truth of Christianity, and upon my feelings a reverence for its purifying and elevating power such as I had never felt before.
“I have known and seen much of him since, for I respect him–no that is not the word–I reverence and love him more than any living man, and I go to see him two or three times every year; and I will tell you, sir, if every one who professes to be a Christian lived and acted and enjoyed it as he does, the religion of Christ would take the world by storm.
“But to return to my story. The next morning we went to the barbecue, and, to my surprise, found about a thousand men there. I met a good many whom I had not known before, and they and my friend introduced me around until I had got pretty well acquainted–at least, they all knew me.
“In due time notice was given that I would speak to them. They gathered up around a stand that had been erected. I opened my speech by saying:
” ‘Fellow citizens–I present myself before you today feeling like a new man. My eyes have lately been opened to truths which ignorance or prejudice, or both, had heretofore hidden from my view. I feel that I can today offer you the ability to render you more valuable service than I have ever been able to render before. I am here today more for the purpose of acknowledging my error than to seek your votes. That I should make this acknowledgment is due to myself as well as to you. Whether you will vote for me is a matter for your consideration only.’
“I went on to tell them about the fire and my vote for the appropriation as I have told it to you, and then told them why I was satisfied it was wrong. I closed by saying:
” ‘And now, fellow-citizens, it remains only for me to tell you that the most of the speech you have listened to with so much interest was simply a repetition of the arguments by which your neighbor, Mr. Bunce, convinced me of my error.
” ‘It is the best speech I ever made in my life, but he is entitled to the credit for it. And now I hope that he is satisfied with his convert and that he will get up here and tell you so.’
“He came upon the stand and said:
” ‘Fellow-citizens–It affords me great pleasure to comply with the request of Colonel Crockett. I have always considered him a thoroughly honest man, and I am satisfied that he will faithfully perform all that he has promised you today.’
“He went down, and there went up from that crowd such a shout for Davy Crockett as his name never called forth before.
“I am not much given to tears, but I was taken with a choking then and felt some big drops rolling down my cheeks. And I tell you now that the remembrance of those few words spoken by such a man, and the honest, hearty shout they produced, is worth more to me than all the honors I have received and all the reputation I have ever made, or ever shall make, as a member of Congress.
“Now, sir,” concluded Crockett, “you know why I made that speech yesterday. I have had several thousand copies of it printed, and was directing them to my constituents when you came in.
“There is one thing now to which I will call your attention. You remember that I proposed to give a week’s pay. There are in that House many very wealthy men–men who think nothing of spending a week’s pay, or a dozen of them, for a dinner or a wine party, when they have something to accomplish by it. Some of those same men made beautiful speeches upon the great debt of gratitude which the country owed the deceased–a debt which could not be paid by money–and the insignificance and worthlessness of money, particularly so insignificant a sum as $10,000, when weighed against the honor of the nation. Yet not one of them responded to my proposition. Money with them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it.”
______________________________________________________
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:32 am
I agree completely, unless the car Tesla will produce is not the announced Model S. That car is terrific but it will be very pricey and generally I’m not in favor of special subsidies for rich people, whether that be capital gains rates (generally or for the ordinary income of private equity fund managers) farm subsidies for agribusiness.
Giving taxpayer loans for a company making a $75K car just seems weird.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:41 am
Man, I HATE “progressive” half-truths! In order to tell the WHOLE TRUTH, please rewrite the paragraph as follows:
“Energy Secretary Chu is expected to announce today that Tesla will be receiving $350 million in TAXPAYER FUNDED loans it requested for building the Model S assembly plant. With this money, mass production of the 57,000 sedan is expected to begin in 2011.
Of course, Secretary Chu understands that this is not fair to the other 100 or so EV start-ups including Aptera because it is tipping the “free” market in favor of a well-funded and politically connected company who can afford high-paid lobbyists and campaign contributions, yet Chu does NOT care because he understands that only money matters.”
Some progressive fools here blame our current problems on the “free” market which of course has not been “free” since the unFederal noReserve was incorporated in 1913 allowing “the gov’t” to choose winners and losers by giving unlimited fiat public debt currency to their political friends. This is called “Crony Capitalism” and has NOTHING to do with a free market.
Even thought unlimited debt to the “Fed” has allowed our corrupt politicians to run up over $56.4 Trillion in public debt (your share is currently: $184,000) and has replaced the free market with crony capitalism, the “Fed” has NEVER been publicly audited.
http://www.pgpf.org/
Call you your representative and DEMAND that they co-sponsor and Support HR1207 in the house and S604 in the Senate without amendments so that we can finally audit the Fed and find out where the $Trillions of OUR debt created in the last few months is going.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:44 am
Tesla is making it’s car all electric simply because it does not have the expertise to make a range extender. It as simple as that. What they have is something simple ( thousand of laptop batteries tied together) as to compare with the Volt.
Good luck Tesla. I’m sure what your doing will contribute to the electric car evolution.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:47 am
Time to get out my drum and start beating it again…
People “buy” cars most of the time for emotional reasons that are tempered by the practicality of price. Things like Style-Performance-Comfort-Safety-Gizmos all create “Passion” and “Desire” to own it. Only the restriction of price keeps us from owning the car of our dreams.
I think the team at Tesla gets this. And I have yet to read a posting here from anyone who would NOT choose a Tesla ‘S’ over a VOLT if they were the same affordable price.
In most races, the one out of the gate first will win; and all Tesla needs is that ‘next generation’ battery power source (maybe EEStor) to push them way ahead of most other makers if it can produce a 250 mile range or better.
I will bet it won’t be long before Tesla announces a Model E (for economy) that would be under $30,000 and if it has the Style-Performance-Etc mentioned earlier – most readers here will kiss the VOLT goodbye.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:54 am
Reply to myself! LOL! The Boys, Zeus and Apollo barked and whined at me!
It, the auto industry, is not truly a capitalist market, unlike the computer industry. When you factor in the cozy group relationship between the Oil Industry, Auto Industry, Wall Street and The Government with the complexity of the trillions of dollars involved there is a great incentive to keep the ICE going for years to come.
That the Electric Genni is this far out of the bottle owes a great deal to the Wall Street speculators who willfully destabilized oil prices with unbridled, ah, speculation and irked those consumers who had NO choice but to dump SUDDENLY ridiculous amounts hard earned money into their gas tanks. Sorry but the whole “Global Warming Carbon Footprint Al Gort thing” is not going to move consumers in a huge way. Just part of the story.
And yes, Das Stat has become a major player. Herr Porche looked for state help in an idea that he had for a affordable small car that conjoined with the same idea of someone who I won’t mention as I will evoke the tender sensibilities of some of our fine group. So I am not surprised with seed money from Das Uncle Sam. As StatiK says, it makes his head spin. Mine too!
Now venture capitalists are seeing the red in the consumer’s eyes as well as the usual corporate players. It could very well be, like I have pontificated before that we might see a replay of the 1910’s and 20’s in the number of companies making auto cars, but this time more so, many types of electrics.
Most exciting! There Boys!——— Higgins
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:54 am
The roadster is based on the Lotus Elise/Exige platform which is a fantastic handling car by any standard.
Mr Musk is definately saying the right things here.
I’m pretty sure that Porsche will build the Porsche of electric cars. Once they decide to do it there will be a ‘hybrid’ or EREV Carrara 4. (And I will be salivating over it but likely unable to afford one.)
After pricing what it would cost to build my own electric conversion (posted a few days back) I’ll wait for the Volt semi-patiently.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 9:57 am
Now that Buick (along with Jaguar) is the highest quality vehicle line on the planet, GM should pump up the volume and put everything they can into this brand.
But the real money should go to Extended Range Electric Vehicles, not hybrids. EREVs, like the Chevy Volt, are what I believe will change the entire motoring paradigm and get us off our dependence on foreign oil.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090319/CARNEWS/903199997
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:01 am
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t have the time to read long blogs like this.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:03 am
The “S” is without a doubt a beauty.
GM would do well to build a ’sexy’ mid size model (maybe a Bel-Air?) with up sized Voltec whizzy bits after the Volt hits the road.
I still think think the Volt is the right place to start.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:06 am
I enjoyed the story, but I wish it was via a link instead of a direct post.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:06 am
Well, Tesla is the only company with highway-capable BEVs on the road today, and GM is the only major automaker that has EREVs scheduled for production in the near future… so it’s natural that they are the two representatives of the BEV vs. EREV debate.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:07 am
On the substance, there seems to be two important points. One is the reason Tesla choose not to pursue an E-REV concept. The most important reason given was the extra R&D and servicing needed for the extended range concept. For GM the R&D was minimal and servicing, with an extensive dealer network, hardly a problem. For Tesla these were big barriers. Thus the reason Tesla didn’t use the E-REV concept in the Model S was that, given their technical expertise and lack of dealers, they couldn’t. (Nothing wrong about basing development on your strengths and weaknesses, in fact this is the right approach).
Making lemonade out of lemons, Musk also raises a number of technical reasons why E-REV is undesirable. Those loosely fall into the two categories, cost and performance. On the performance side he seems to be simply wrong because he either doesn’t get, or refuses to get, the concept that by using the battery to help the genset provide peak power the genset can be limited to providing average power. (Carcus1 may have something to say on this point). On the cost side he has some valid technical points but seems to be off by a factor of 2 or 4 — IOW it doesn’t cost the same for an E-REV with a 40 mile range as it does for a BEV with with a 200 mile range. Probably more like 100 nominal miles or 75 real world. But he does give some of the reasons why GM is treating the battery so gingerly.
FWIW Tesla engineering seems to be quite good. Hopefully some of his engineers can get through to him on the technical point.
Finally, one thing which has always driven me nuts is the page design for Tesla web pages. What’s with the black background and white type? Are these people nuts? Black backgrounds look cool and work great for visuals, but for long blocks of text they are horrible. Time to get over art directoritis.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:17 am
DonC the Model S will be 50k not $75k and it does also qualify for the electric vehicle $7500 tax credit so if you buy one you can get some of that tax money they just got back. Secondly Tesla is going to build a 3rd car which is currently un-named which will be also pure electric and around the 25k price point.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:19 am
The battery is the key without a doubt. Once they have a well proven design on the road THEN they can concentrate on greater capacity and cost reduction.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:21 am
Tesla is worth more than GM with only 1 car available and 1 prototype —- GM would already be a rotting dead carcass if it were not saved by the government.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:30 am
OK I’ll bite: Musk called the Volt “semi-electric”. Semi literally means half so Elon Musk stated that the Volt will only use it’s electric motor half of the time. The nerve of that guy!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:30 am
Saved by “the Gov’t” against the taxpayer’s will. Again, the few benefiting from taking from the many at Federal gunpoint.
Article: Majority of Voters Would Rather GM Close Than Receive Bailout.
A recent survey finds the public is anything but enthusiastic
Posted June 2, 2009
21: Percentage of U.S. voters who support bailing out GM as part of a structured bankruptcy plan
67: Percentage who are opposed to giving GM $50 billion in exchange for 70 percent government ownership
32: Percentage who would rather GM receive a bailout than close down
56: Percentage who would rather GM go out of business
59: Percentage of men who would rather GM go out of business
53: Percentage of women who would rather GM go out of business
http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/2009/06/02/majority-of-voters-would-rather-gm-close-than-receive-bailout.html
Politicians don’t care what WE think! They’ll just lie their way out of their past actions during their next campaign.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:31 am
Why hate only “progressive” half-truths? Are other half-truths ok?
This post by Lyle shows Mr. Musk’s attempts to unstir the pot. We should do the same. Let’s have dialoguery (I made that word up), not demagoguery.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:34 am
After watching that video, I was left with the impression that the Volt might start its engine when climbing the steep hill on the course. I further supposed that the behavior might depending on the position of an Eco/Sport switch.
If I can get the Volt’s engine to start by pressing the gas pedal, it’s a hybrid. If that’s the case, it might still make the regular hybrid that I drive several times a week obsolete — but I’d still call the Volt a hybrid, even though I’d be laughing my way past the gas-stations on my way to work.
OTOH, if there’s no circumstance where I can’t get the engine to start by pushing the accelerator (at least when the battery is above “empty”), I think it’s fair to argue the Volt is not a hybrid.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:35 am
CorvetteGuy Says: In most races, the one out of the gate first will win…
————————————————————————————–
Not really.
The first MP3 player was made by Creative Labs in the late 90s, but the Apple iPod won this market. The first personal computer was made by Apple, but Windows PCs own 90% of this market. There are countless other examples.
Companies that pave the way don’t necessarily win the market.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:36 am
Also, Tesla manufacturing its own cars will require Tesla to go through a big learning curve at a dollar cost and time cost that is impossible to containerize. It makes me wonder if the Fisker approach of outsourcing the Karma build would be a better approach for the Tesla Model S.
_______________________
Not only is that a good point-
That is exactly the approach Tesla has taken with the Roadster. Almost 600 Tesla Roadsters are in customer hands today, with more arriving each week on ships from Hethel, England to offload in California. Tesla has admitted that the learning curve for what they have accomplished was huge difficult and harder than they imagined. Elon Musk “While I’m confident that Tesla will turn out to have a good return for investors, building a car company has to be one of the hardest ways to make a buck.” ( http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/ )
They have hired some car business veterans and now have some experience designing, making and selling EV’s. Maybe it’s time for them to see if they can be successful at the first rung of mass scale EV production.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:38 am
The point Dave G. makes about a range-extender’s role in all-weather operation (particularly warming the battery) is something which will be learned the hard way by buyers of BEVs in the next few years, I suspect.
I’ll be eager to hear about Lyle’s cold-weather Mini-E experiences.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
That’s life. As much of a geek-hippie as I’ve turned in to over the last decade, the market rules this kind of thing. It’s a force of nature. Human nature, but nature nonetheless.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:41 am
Yes, exactly. You hit the nail on the head.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
One, the loans have nothing to do with TARP. The loans were part of the appropriation bill which passed last summer, long before TARP was even considered. What makes you think they do?
Second, what makes you think having the government fund private companies bypasses the Constitution? The government does that all the time, which is why we had more private contractors in Iraq than military personnel and which is why we pay billions of dollars every year to agribusiness.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:46 am
I assume that, to get the loan, Tesla had to meet certain qualifications. To give the loan, the lenders had to make certain public justifications. You say that Tesla got the loan because Tesla is, “a well-funded and politically connected company who can afford high-paid lobbyists and campaign contributions.” Do you have any proof that Tesla got the loan because because of cronyism instead of merit? Supplying that information would be good reporting and it would further your cause. Please substantiate your claims with evidence.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:47 am
OK, for the record, I don’t like this new format. I like the old, it was KISS.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:47 am
I agree with you on the beautiful design of the Tesla S—it is just a stunning looking car! The practicality of the Volt with it’s range extender is what makes the Volt attractive in my eyes. That’s very simplified, but bottom line, the range extender is what seals the deal with me.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:50 am
I don’t decide things based on public opinion polls.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:54 am
Point taken. Strike the work “progressive” from the above post and realize that
(1) “the gov’t” doesn’t have any money that it has not taken from the taxpayer.
(2) A huge percent of every tax dollar taken is used to grow gov’t.
Here’s the 2009 Federal Budget Pie Chart:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Fy2009spendingbycategory2.png
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:55 am
I would choose the Volt over the Model S even if they were the same price. In fact, I would pay extra for the Volt. The range extender is a deal-maker for me.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:56 am
I was just going to say somthing myself about TARP.
/nice catch and clarification Don
—
I will say I know where Dave K is going with this…as the intent of these loans (despite being labelled for retooling/development on greener projects inside the US) really wasn’t too far away from the same intent they did end up raiding TARP for later on.
I think maybe they just didn’t realize how badly the situation had already gotten when they started to table this idea.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 10:59 am
Tesla is so exotic, companies like Ferrari which are more well established will do electric versions of there car’s. Less and Less people will have the phrase “But this is electric, so this is better”. So it will be knocked from the market. But I hope tesla have a future.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:02 am
Thanks for the long, though excellent post.
What we have already lost, we are not likely to ever see again; alas.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:03 am
On the other hand. Mr. Musk refers to the Volt as a “hybrid” and continues to refer to the Volt as being bulky. I like both the Tesla and the Volt. Each is suited for what is expected of it.
_________________________
Calling the Volt a hybrid and leaving it at that, as others have said is very much an over simplification. As a serial hybrid, the Volt’s always on electric propulsion uses the ICE to extend it’s range or add peak power in addition to the battery at CDP (depletion). That is, IMO an elegant solution when compared to a parallel hybrid.
When Musk calls hybrid systems, a weak gas engine connected to a weak electric motor, it’s a characterization that seems to fit many parallel hybrids but, not the many Volt reviewers estimations of it’s V6 like electric motor performance.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
“Giving taxpayer loans for a company making a $75K car just seems weird.”
Doesn’t Chevy make a car that is neither Hybrid nor Electric and obviously NOT EREV…..
Corvette ZR1
http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-zr1/
MSRP: $106,620
Makes your statement quite Hypocritical. Talk about weird.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:09 am
C’mon guys. I know you are faithful to the VOLT project, but if the ‘next big thing’ in battery technology gives a Tesla all-electric the same range (let’s just say 500 miles per charge to make it equal) and the price of the Tesla is exactly the same as the VOLT after any so-called rebates, that you would choose the “kinda-looks-like-that-old-dodge-stratus-VOLT” over the “man-that-looks-cooler-than-a-ferrari-Tesla-S”…?!
Don’t kid a kidder.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:10 am
#28 Cap’n Jack
I’m starting to agree with you on that one, it takes a LOT more time to scan all the posts rather than just refresh and check the bottom.
The voting thing is sort of fun though.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:12 am
“RANGE ANXIETY”!!!!! TESLA car is like a rechargeable drill that you will end up carrying the stupid and bulky charger anyway, I,m a construction worker, i think i know the feeling… until charging stations are available all over the america, i will not buy BEVs…
VOLT is the right technology for now because you can extend your range by filling up your tank from existing gasoline station around the world!!!!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:17 am
I agree. I don’t think Tesla would shut out a major portion of the ev market [The erev group] If they had the money and expertise to do build such a car.
Their sedan would be a great looking EREV.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:21 am
Until Tesla has an EREV or 300 mile car at sub $30,000.00 I will take the Volt every time. I would take their Sedan over the volt if it was an EREV and not a lot more money.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:22 am
Like Musk said, the Tesla and the Volt serve different market segments. There is plenty of room for both types of vehicles. Lets bring them on and get the party started. I am ready.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:22 am
“Companies that pave the way don’t necessarily win the market.”
Then I guess if GM paves the EREV way it will not win the market?
lol….
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:26 am
Have you considered the Volt in that it will lug around the ICE Genset using battery power for the first 40 miles 100% of the time then after that the ICE Genset has to lug around the the batt pack when depleted when the genset is on 100% of the time and then they eventually at one point have to “Assist” each other?
You’re a construction worker? Then try carrying one of your generators with you to help keep your cordless drills charged ALL the time.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:26 am
Liquid fuels have around 20 times more energy density than any battery or ultra capacitor. That’s just the way it is. Long distance and heavy duty transportation over land, air, and sea will continue to use liquid fuels. If we want to truly get off of oil, we will need bio-fuels.
EREVs can replace 80% of our gasoline use. The remaining 20% can be covered by cellulosic ethanol using no additional land:
http://www.coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp
Diesel and jet fuel can be replaced by bio-fuels from algae grown in the desert:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
Agreed. This new format is a PIA!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:29 am
@MuddyRoverRob 30
Yeah, keep the voting and go back to the old skool way.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:30 am
Yes, i am also eager to hear about the Mini operating in extreme cold weather. Lyle, how about driving it as far north in Canada as you can go. You are bound to run across some really cold weather some where along the way. Of course, you will have to plan for multiple stops for recharging, etc along the way. Kinda takes the fun out of a road trip, doesn’t it?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
@31 Cap’n Jack… Once again we agree to dis-agree on this point! This will be my primary car and I need the nice cuddly range extender to make that possible.
@32 Cap’n Jack… Amen Brother!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
Amen to that. Banks are some of the worst offending “companies” around. Just how many times have we “bailed-out” the banking system in this country. I can remember once in the 1980’s, once in the 1990’s and now again. I think I see a pattern here.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:34 am
Amen, brother.
Reduced to its simplist analogy, the Tesla is a glorified version of the RC car that my 8 year-old drives around in the cul-de-sac.
The Volt? That’s far tougher.
And toughest yet is the Prius lash-up.
IMO, the Volt is in the sweet spot of providing the best of both worlds.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:35 am
I appreciate the feedback, but I think this new format has the potential for stimulating deeper discussion.
Of course, one always has the option of starting a new thread at the bottom.
I am also hopeful that the new format will draw in new voices who might not have posted at the bottom but will reply directly.
Let’s keep it going for a while, we can always go back. I am looking at a new overhaul for the site in general too. Change is never easy but always inevitable.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:36 am
They’ll still b|tch about range anxiety even a 500MPC.
I need more Kahlua in my coffe……brb.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:38 am
The “next big thing in battery tech” that will give Tesla a longer range will also free ER-EVs from the tyranny of aerodaynamic drag. At that point, GM can unleash many more Voltec variants styled however they want.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 am
@MuddyRoverRob 33
Hey, I just noticed that when you “Reply” your reply has no index/line number…..
ok, ok…….duh……
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
I’m sympathetic to your point. However, as mentioned by ThombDBhomb, there were requirements for the loans. To respond to your example of Aptera, Aptera was not eligible because the language of the legislation limited the loans to the manufacture of four wheeled vehicles. Aptera only manufactures a three wheel vehicle so it wasn’t eligible.
Personally I’m all in favor of the Aptera and think the four wheel requirement was a mistake. And no doubt, given that the legislation was written by Dingell, it favored the politically well connected like GM (if GM had a three wheeled EV in the works the legislation would definitely have covered three wheeled EVs). But that’s not the fault of Steven Chu.
Finally, your point about the benefits of “free financial” markets seems downright contrary to the facts. The US had very free financial markets until the 1930s. During that time it lurched from one financial crisis to another. After the financial markets were more tightly regulated the US had fifty years of solid economic growth and not a single financial crisis. Then in the 1980’s, and culminating during the Clinton and Bush years, the US allowed the financial markets to be free once again. For that entire period the US has had one financial crisis after another. It’s pretty obvious that financial markets are not self organizing and self regulating.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
It seems to me the investment from Mercedes will come with some expertise in the manufacturing arena. Merecedes will not want their investment to go the way of Chrylser
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:44 am
Here’s a different take on TARP:
money.cnn.com/2009/06/08/news/economy/federal_government_gets_tarp_right.fortune/index.htm
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
I agree with both of you. It is not possible at this time to select one that is a be-all-end-all. The technology isn’t there yet.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:50 am
I would rather see this money go to development of environmentally sound technology than to Blackwater or the Department of Defense for operations around the world.
This type of government spending will pay off for America in energy independance and hopefully a safer world
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June 23rd, 2009 at 11:56 am
If there were a way to flag all ‘new’ posts in a quick fashion on a single page it would be OK.
As it is instead of a 5 second refresh and look at the bottom (old skool) it takes several minutes at the least to scan the entire list.
It’s much more cumbersome.
I see your point about conversations being more interactive, but I also think it will tend to create isolated conversations rather than sharing with the entire community. (a conversation on point 6 might get completely missed by the people on point 47 and vice versa, there is a LOT of scrolling between them!)
/Lyle, Please do not take this the wrong way, I enjoy the information and interaction with this group but am not a big fan of this change. Maybe I’m getting old, I don’t “Tweet” either!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
______________________________________________________
My Bad…
I agree that posting a comment that long was bad form on my part….something that long should have been made a link.
Also, postings that fall into the political/ideological space (such as my above Davy Crocket post) do not contribute to the main mission of this blog which for me is to learn about and help promote the Electric Car Revolution while keeping tabs of the status of my future Chevy Volt purchase.
The good and the bad of the recent government automotive bailouts and other political aspects that have a tangent association with the Electric Car Revolution will play out on thier own and be judged by history.
______________________________________________________
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Lwesson:
I agree with your assessment that cars were originally for the rich, but that was when there were no cars around. That is not the case today. And you can buy quite a few new cars for well under $15K today, so electric cars have a real hurdle to overcome.
The problem with trying to compare the auto industry to the computer industry is that there were NO companies selling PC’s in the late 1970’s when all those small companies like IMSAI, Altair, Alpha Micro, Polymorphic, Ohio Scientific, and Apple started to sell kits and then assembled computer systems. I met most of those people, and I was an Ohio Scientific dealer from 1980 through the mid-1990’s, when after four buyouts they finally closed up shop. This was because in the end they could not compete with the giants that entered the market.
Also, don’t forget that IBM was not initially allowed to enter that market because of federal anti-trust regulations.
The personal computer market did not really explode until IBM introduced the IBM-PC in August, 1981. Except for Apple, almost all of those other companies are now long gone and mostly forgotten. It is the big companies that drive most of the sales, and it will be the same for the auto industry, mostly because of the huge costs to design, test, build, federally certify, deliver, and service these vehicles.
IMHO, Tesla may start out well, and they may have a shot to become the next Apple, but the only way that can happen is if they can sell a mass produced, inexpensive, car for general use. And the Model S at $60K isn’t it. More than likely, they will be bought out or simply become a footnote in the history of electric cars.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
#28 CaptJackSparrow
#28b Tim:
#30 Mudd RoverRob:
Re: new format
I know what your saying completely about ferreting out new posts. Someone can reply to a comment, but if there is already 100+ going, a lot of people will miss that comment when they skim to the bottom. (Most are less likely to surf the entire thread to see what those ‘new’ comments might be)
Also if they are looking to start a discussion with a particular poster, that original person also has to go back and ‘re-check’ his/her post to see if it has a reply…then move forward from there.
The old way was easier to keep track, as you can just read the bottom of the thread, and it was up to the poster to ‘copy & paste’ the post he/she was responding to.
Maybe a better idea is do do away with the ‘reply’ (and putting replies under the original comment), and just go with a ‘quote’ function, that way the discussion continues, but without the onus being on the users to keep track, and in would be in a more widely accessible format at the bottom of the thread…that lets people see what is ‘new’ easier, and you still can contribute to a ongoing discussion w/reference to the old. (Still won’t be as linear as this current format, but there is likely to be more ‘views’ on whatever that discussion is)
But as Lyle says, lets give it some time and see how it works out.
(…but don’t get rid of the voting, I’m still dying for a controversial thread that I can put up a big number, lol)
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Sorry, ThombDBhomb.
I’m just stating the facts and I didn’t know that you were one of the People’s Elected Representatives who COULD decide things.
Are you in the House or Senate?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Tesla was started to make electric cars. The founders* stated, when asked about their motivation for starting the company (five years before the Volt concept was first shown) , “The last thing the world needs is another expensive sports car.”
Making electric cars was the only reason for losing a chunk of their lives to the process of starting a car company, as each founder was already able to afford expensive sports cars and none felt that creating another one would make any difference in a world full of rich boys toys. (Elon Musk reportedly sold his 620 hp Mclaren F1, after taking delivery of his roadster.)
Fisker an even earlier stage start-up, is planning to use a GM supplied range extending ICE. Tesla’s roadster clearly does not have the physical space for an ICE range extender.
Tesla got their aluminum chassis technology from Lotus and their carbon fiber body technology from SOTIRA in france, so IMO if their internal debates had them leaning towards EREV’s then they would have no qualm with outsourcing that as well, for the Model S. ( http://www.zoltek.com/aboutus/news/111/ )
/More minutia for anyone that wants to see it below -
The Roadster’s brakes and airbags are made by Siemens in Germany.
BorgWarner manufactures the gearboxes and began equipping all Roadsters with a single speed, fixed gear gearbox (8.2752:1) with an electrically-actuated parking lock mechanism and a mechanical lubrication pump.
Brake and gearbox info from Wikipedia.
*Eberhard interviewed after leaving Tesla…So why not make a Tesla affordable to those of us without personal assistants to pay our utility bills? Starting with a high-end model is the most practical way to go, says Eberhard… A small automaker relying on sophisticated electronics and batteries–and contracting the actual car-building to another firm–can’t match the economies of scale of General Motors (GM), which pumps out more than 4 million vehicles for sale in the United States each year…
Prompted by concerns about global warming, the rising cost of oil, and the national-security implications of our dependence on foreign energy supplies, consumers are clamoring to learn more about fossil-fuel-free energy. “And that,” Eberhard says, in a way that sounds nothing like a starry-eyed tree hugger and everything like an engineer who has devoted his career to making things run more efficiently, “is good for the world.”
( http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200705/innovators.asp )
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Well, it is in my mind. I realize it is pretty indirect…but if you are catching cheap rides to space with Musk, and you have a close working relationship with him that you are happy with (and want to keep it that way), it couldn’t hurt to give him priority…provided he fits the guidelines you set out, and is likely he will pay you back.
/maybe that is just the business owner in me talking
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
@35 Staticc
LOVE the mis-spelling! (I DEFINATELY had it coming!)
Using the quote function on the site could be a good compromise!
Ferreting out new posts… exactly!
——————————————————
To get back on topic, Tesla S pretty… but it needs a range extender!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:20 pm
DonC, you’ll like this read:
The Founding Father of Crony Capitalism
http://mises.org/story/3164
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
@MuddyRoverRob 33:
Yeah so we’re getting a false reading on how many have blogged so far.
Do we care? I don’t know.
Lyle wants to give this a try so let’s ride with it for a while and see what changes we want to suggest.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
For whatever it’s worth, here’s my suggestion. Collapse all threads a user is not in. That way the only “Expanded” threads are the ones a user has participated in.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
If the next Tesla has a 500 MPC range, and can be fully charged in eight hours or less with no special equipment, then yes, I would prefer the Tesla. However, until that happens, I want an EREV.
By the way, i think the Converj is just as cool looking as the Tesla. Not to mention the BEV Camaro that GM could make with this new battery technology….
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:26 pm
…if…
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Ok, as a follow up to my above reply, I count a total of 101 separate blogs today so far.
And the count is at just 34.
Just to give you an idea of original blogs vs. total blogs (original plus reply)
Again, do we care?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
@34 Zipdrive
Absolutely we’ll give it a go if Lyle wants it this way!
But he DID ask for feedback (crazy guy!)
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I would choose the Volt over the Model S even if they were the same price. In fact, I would pay extra for the Volt
_________________________
- if you live in New York, would you need a car with 300 miles of electric range? more than once or twice a year?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm
@MuddyRoverRob 36
“To get back on topic, Tesla S pretty… but it needs a range extender!”
It is pretty and it has batt pack option up to 300MPC But that’s a sh|tload of cylidrical cells in there.
Hopefully the motor controllers/Inverters can handle a batt pack change in the future so they can adapt to large format prismatics.
I still think GM should sell a BEV only Volt. Just ommit the ICE Genset during mfgr and flash the sys code to open up the SOC for at least 60 AER. I’d buy it for the $31K
Of cousre my commute is only 20 miles round trip and H( . y . )TERS is 1 mile away from work.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
That was totally unintentional, must be some kind of subconscious aggression, lol. I can’t remember ever doing that, usually I copy and paste.
/sorry about that
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:37 pm
I saw my first Tesla the other day, parked on a side street in Palo Alto. It’s a toy. Really it actually looks like a toy car. It’s so tiny. Yes I know they have plans to build a sedan. It’s a totally impractical car for 99% of the public. It’s much smaller than a Corvette or any two-seater sports car I’ve ever seen. I was just stunned at how small it is.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
If you look at the top of the page, there’s a total reply count to Lyle’s initial post.
For the record, I’d also appreciate a way to sort for what’s new.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Public opinion polls are more “factoids” than facts.
Your posting of a public opinion polls’ results seems like you are trying to convince me of something. I decide, for myself, if your argument is convincing.
p.s., Right now, I am in my house.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Just to add on about the changes. I just noticed that Gravatars are back…but in the reply section only!
/nice
Is that by design to ease up on the users page load time Lyle? Or is there return just a accident?)
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June 23rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
The problem, Lyle is that you have to start from the top each time you visit a string just to read any replies to previous comments. You end up scanning the entire post over and over again each time you visit.
It’s a LOT of work and VERY frustrating. It’s like listening to everybody talking at once instead of the old way of just reading each new comment in the order they come in and referring back to the original post only if you need to refresh you memory.
Following the posts on this site has become a LOT of work!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Just because something was posted, doesn’t mean somebody has to read it.
Well, I read it, and I enjoyed it. Thank you!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Unless EEstor is being run by Steve Jobs, their obsession with secrecy (along with Ian Clifford of Zenn fame) is, to use our president’s favorite word, “troubling” to me. I mean, Ian won’t even acknowledge that he’s seen a working model! There was a time when I was going to invest in Zenn as a way of getting a piece of privately-owned EEstor, but that day has come and gone. I hope that whatever they are building comes to fruition, but I’m no longer holding my breath.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
I agree. The money would be better spent on a company that would make a car for the masses. A company that will do well to sell 1000 cars (TESLA) is not a good investment.
With 435 Million bucks, we could give away over 23,000 cars (costing $20K each) to people who have gas hogs. This would save more gas than 1000 (car toy) teslas that are added to the fleets of the rich and famous.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:08 pm
The Tesla plan has been to start with Roadster ($100k+), then make the Model S ($50k), then the Bluestar ($30?), which will be funded by profits from the Model S sedan.
As with other new tech business plans, they start with high-end early adopters, then the tech eventually becomes cheaper to produce and enters the mainstream. So, the government loan could help Tesla keep the plan going.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Sidenote: That should be 450+ million in DOE loans
…some of us can’t change our figures ‘post-hence’ when the thread itself changes, heeh (Just noticed the corrected figure off the WSJ online)
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
______________________________________________________
The Ultimate PR EV Halo Play…
“ExxonMobil Unveils Electric Car…”
Source:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1021687_exxonmobil-unveils-electric-car
______________________________________________________
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
If Elon has a new handler/coach, he or she is doing a very good job. IMHO.
Musk stock is up with me today.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Let me make this perfectly CLEAR. Mr. Musk IS the visionary behind Tesla. Without Musk Tesla would have already been done (just like GM, but without the socialist bailout). You bring shame on your cause. Don’t try to discredit the main force behind Tesla. Lame Dude. Just Lame.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Might as well repost my comments from ‘later; in the thread (lol) @ #35 here (now with less spelling errors and better grammar):
—-
There is something to be said about people having to ferret out new posts. Someone can reply to a older comment, but if there is already 100+ going, a lot of people will miss that comment entirely as they skim to the bottom, or just go there directly. (Most are less likely to surf the entire thread to see what those ‘new’ comments might be)
Also if they are looking to start a discussion with a particular poster, that original person also has to go back and ‘re-check’ his/her post to see if it has a reply…then move forward from there.
The old way was easier to keep track, as you can just read the bottom of the thread, and it was up to the poster to ‘copy & paste’ the post he/she was responding to.
Maybe a better idea is to do away with the ‘reply’ or just add a ‘quote’ function alongside. That way the discussion continues, but without the onus being on the users to keep track, and it would be in a more widely accessible format at the bottom of the thread…that lets people see what is ‘new,’ more easily, and you still can contribute to a ongoing discussion w/reference to the old. (Still won’t be as linear as this current format, but there is likely to be more ‘views’ on whatever that discussion is)
But as Lyle says, lets give it some time and see how it works out.
(…but don’t get rid of the voting, I’m still dying for a controversial thread that I can put up a big number, lol)
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I believe GM has already dumped more than $1 billion in developing the Volt so far. If Musk can really produce the S with half of what GM has done with taxpayers dollars that this is great news. I am tired of seeing GM waste billions. At least with Nissan and Tesla we won’t have the massive waste that GM has already done. This is a much wiser use of our tax dollars. IMO, there are many companies that can produce an electric car, GM is not doing anything special here.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I still follow all of the comments every day, but I am sort of running out of things to say at the moment. I guess you guys have said it all.
I continue to be struck however by the sort of honor roll of Volt enthusiasts/supporters who have participated here so faithfully for so many months.
I guess one could say this by just referring to the list of how many comments people have made, but it is a bit more personal to me. statik, Tagamet, Jean-Charles Jacquemin, NZDavid, old man, jbfalaska, ThombDbhomb, RB, N Riley, Rashiid Amul, and so many more. It is always a risk to name names, for fear that you leave someone out, so apologies to all of you. I’m just trying to make my point.
Jean-Charles has often referred to this potenital of an on line community, stretching around the world, to really make a difference. When I see all of you participating here, I am always reminded of his prescient insight.
All the best to all of you.
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Both well-said and accurate too (lol). You should have put your name in there too though.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!****************NPNS
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Hello Volt heads. I think you know what you can do with your pollution hungry gas-guzzling range extender. The Tesla sedan won’t need no stinking range extender ! The first gen will get 300 miles and future generations will be double that. You Volt fans need to free yourself of this range-anxiety fixation you have, seek counseling now.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:34 pm
You’re right–I don’t need 300 miles of electric range. Actually, right now, I don’t need a car at all. I’m planning to move to the suburbs in a couple of years, and at that point, I will need a car. I still don’t know what my regular driving needs will be at that point. But I imagine they will be less than the 40 miles of the Volt’s electric range.
But I worry about the actual range of the Tesla–I’m the exact opposite of a hypermiler. (You almost have to be in the city.) And I will need heat during the winter and air conditioning in the summer.
I also worry about not being able to plug in occasionally. My laptop chargers have broken several times. I want the backup just in case.
Finally, I love travelling. I go on weekend driving trips at least four times a year. And I’d rather not have to rent a car for those trips.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
I noticed the same thing about the article. Musk naturally would like to be remembered as the “founder” and not the funding source. Even that came later after the company was founded and trying to put a design and production model together. Granted, because of his funding, he has become the de facto owner and now wants to assume the founder’s role also. We thank him for his funding, but would like to keep the founders as they were originally named.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Did Mr. Musk say that Tesla will soon become profitable ?
Holy smoke. This guy is good. I would definitely give him more green. He will have a proven track record of profitability. Sounds like low risk high reward. Now don’t get me started on GM Volt. I think everyone and their mother knows that the Chevy Volt will never ever be profitable. They are only using it to get to their second and third (S clone) models and burning huge amounts of money to get there.
I prefer Telsa business model to GM any day of the week.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
When I saw the replay of the Musk visit to the Letterman show, I could tell that Musk was uncomfortable in the way the subject was being bandied around by Letterman. I knew the reason he was on the show was to do PR for Tesla, but Letterman was more into doing a hatchet job on the Volt in an attempt to curry favor with Musk and the “in general GM hating” studio and TV audience. I saw Letterman for what he was and did not like it. Of course, I have never been a Letterman fan because I have always found him to be very shallow and insincere. I just decided years ago not to watch his show. Letterman did Mr. Musk and all of America a disservice. That is to his shame.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:49 pm
The Tesla batteries are not *soldered* end-to-end. I’m certain they use the same battery strap spot welders that are standard for making cordless power tools. The quality and reliability is pretty good, but still fewer is better. I’m also pretty sure the Tesla has ~41 parallel strings of ~122 cells to makup their battery pack so even in one string goes out the overall performance won’t suffer much until it is repaired.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
@Owen Money 43
“Chevy Volt will never ever be profitable. ”
I recall the timeline for profitability was 4 – 5 years for the Volt to be in the +.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm
I forgot to add–there are many other potential reasons for not being able to plug-in. Time. Someone else wanting to use the outlet. A blackout. They’re extremely rare here, but they do happen. I could blow a fuse. Etc.
And I’ll feel a lot more secure with the range extender since mass marketed EVs are so new. Yes. I know it’s basically an old technology. But it’s new to me.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:02 pm
We feel the same way about you too, Noel Park. You have been there all along and have added considerable comments that are always one of my favorite reads. Thank you from all of us for your kind words.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Right, but it’s kind of a useless tally. Except to let you know if you’re late to the party when you log on.
Or to let you know if you have a chance to be “FIRST!”
Like we care.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Let us please remember where it all really got started:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/10/video-ac-propulsion-tzero-vs-viper-at-the-drag-strip/
AC Propulsion was the true innovator. I doubt that Elon ever got his fingers dirty even eating chicken. He was a follow-on funder. Ask Martin Eberhard where the ideas really came from. The Tesla is the product of AC Propulsion innovation and a few phone calls to Lotus.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Maybe the administration is planning to require UAW employment at Tesla as a condition of the loan. That helps keep jobs and votes. Let’s see now. California business climate plus the UAW plus limited number of customers should spell success for Tesla. LOL. I do wish Tesla well and I hope to see many new vehicles designed, produced and sold by the company. More the merrier.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
The reason we have politicians is not to implement every knee-jerk opinion we mark in a survey, but to listen to all parties, do the research, and make the best decision for their constituents.
I think you’d find that if GM had liquidated, that same “majority” would be opposed to the resulting ecomomic and social problems that would have resulted. In other words, we want it all; it’s up to the politicians to figure out a reasonable compromise.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Have you actually seen a Volt. It is pretty small too. Smaller than most Hondas.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
I thought that GM (and others) might use it to gauge the interest in the Volt? And the more posts the better?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:14 pm
On the contrary, I find this new format much more easy to follow. Replies are next to their original posts where they belong, not 44 responses below.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:15 pm
What is that new car smell? Musk?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Sorry Adrian, but that is impossible. To unseat this type of government we now have in place takes an intelligent, thoughtful, resourceful and angry electorate. We have an electorate that misses on all four of the adjectives I listed above. The other thing you must have is honest media that reports the truth no matter whose bull gets gored. We certainly do not have that. Some one stated that “journalism is dead” in America. Well, after I thought about that for awhile, I must say that I can see where that saying has a ring of truth to it. No, we have dug ourselves into a very big hole and I think the forces are arrayed now as never before to seal the hole over us. Freedom as we have known it through all of our lives will never see the light of day again. That is pretty much in the dust bin of history and those in charge of writing history for the generations to come are the same ones in charge of the big hole we are in and are the ones now pushing the dirt over us.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:19 pm
The distinction is between a parallel hybrid and a series hybrid. Pre-Volt machines are all parallel hybrids. Engine and electric motor are both connected to the drive wheels. Either one or both can physically turn the wheels. The Volt and the Fisker Karma are series hybrids. Only the electric motor turn the wheels. The gas engine is NOT connected to the wheels. It only serves to run a generator which supply additional current to the battery.
Volt is a hybrid. But it is a series hybrid, which is full time electric only drive train.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:23 pm
300 miles from an optional battery. And how much more will it cost for that optional larger battery? The same cost as a range extender.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Tesla’s business plan makes sense.
Technologies always start out expensive. When all goes well, R & D advances improve the functionality and lower the cost of the technology. As that happens, the market expands, volume goes up, and that drives cost down.
I guess the real question with BEVs is whether battery technology has matured sufficiently that it is time to start introducing BEV’s into the marketplace.
The first place they will be competitive is in the high-end of the market. Tesla has made the judgement that the technology is far enough along that BEVs are now viable in that segment of the market.
I suspect they will have a hard time making a profit, since there tend to be unexpected costs whenever you are trying to put something new into the marketplace. But I do think their judgement is essentially sound- if BEVs are not competitive in niche markets so far, they are very close to it.
You have to walk before you can run.
I hope that by the time my gas car bites the dust in 6 or 7 years, there will be a good BEV on the market at a reasonable price.
BEVs will never reach the mainstream auto market if someone doesn’t first introduce them into niche markets.
Viva la Tesla!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
DonC:
Well said!
statik:
I agree.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:27 pm
GM dominated the auto industry for about 75 years before better cars from Japan overtook them in the marketplace because they were FIRST. I believe companies like Tesla and Mitsubushi and others will dominate the Electric-Hybrid market for many years until the “New GM” finally wakes up and remembers the days when they built cars with ’style’-'performance’-and ‘reliability’.
Just because a car runs on electricity (BEV or EREV) will not “SELL” the car to many more than a few on this blog. It has to have “EXCITEMENT”. And I don’t think GM has even begun to ‘market’ the car properly yet to achieve that goal.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:29 pm
You may be correct about Bob Lutz, but without his pushing the concept of the Volt we would not be here talking about it. I agree he lives in another world. A world a lot of us grew up in and enjoyed for many, many years. But give Bob Lutz credit where credit is due and overlook his desire for big V-8 engines and hot off the mark cars.
I hope you are correct in assuming a real market will be there for these new electric vehicles. But people are hard to change from a technology that they know and trust to one that is new and unknown to them, even a little foreign to them. They must be “pushed” to accept new technology like this fast enoug to really make it “turn the corner”, so to speak. Gas prices spiking would have that affect to a large extent. Not the way I would like to see it done, but it is one method.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:30 pm
As I see it, PHEVs are a good stepping stone to all-electric vehicles, but only a stepping stone.
The long-term advantage of BEVs in my view is that they will be vastly simpler mechanically, which should translate to their being low-cost and low-maintenance.
The one big caveat of course is that their success is dependent on continue evolution of battery technology to the point where a BEV battery will be low cost, low weight, low size, quick-chargeable, and provide a substantial range between refueling.
Advances in battery technology are moving us closer to meeting all of those goals, but there’s still a need for a lot more improvement.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:30 pm
1% of the public is 60 million people. I don’t think that Tesla has that much production capacity, but if you are right, perhaps they can ramp up quickly to meet your projected demand for their Roadster.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:34 pm
BillR, I think Tesla comes up more than the others because it has a car on the road and is the company that inspired Bob Lutz to push GM for the Volt. I think it is as simple as that. The Fisker would be the Volt’s closest competitor as far as being similar. Except the Fisker is so much more beautiful. By miles and miles.
Musk doesn’t see the Volt as competing for the same customer base as his vehicles. He is probably correct in that assumption. He recognizes the market segement he can serve and the part the Volt can serve. Later on GM will be reaching into his market segment as it brings out the more expensive Cadillac E-REVs.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:34 pm
With the Feds expanding their role as venture capitalists, it is interesting to see that their approach seems to be, in order to achieve their primary goals, diversification is essential. No one knows who the winning companies will be, so they’re helping a lot of them, including foreign-HQ’s ones.
Time is of the essence–too bad GM won’t get their $ until later. I’d like to see a restructured GM compete with more Voltec offerings, such as the Caddy and, most importantly for profits, large vehicles.
Any posters here with a company that’s trying to get some of the gov. $?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:35 pm
When battery charging times come way down and recharging stations become as common as modern gas stations, then range-anxiety will subside.
For most people to believe that a BEV is a practical vehicle with the existing immature state of technology would be a delusion, and *that* would require counseling.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I admire Mr. Musk greatly. If only GM could have a CEO like that. The Volt being a Hybrid or Semi-Electric is a very good point. I think the Volt should not be mentioned in the same category as a Tesla Roadster or Tesla S. These a true electric cars that are environmentally friendly. The Volt is just another Hybrid and should only be compared to other Hybrids like the Prius or Fusion. Elon Musk has indeed set the bar very high, a true pioneer in the industry.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:41 pm
BEV’s will only get mainstream if they are affordable (20-25K) and have a range of at least 80-100MPC. What is holding them back is batt cost. If/when Mitsu get’s the Jellybean car here in the US with their announced “half the price” then all bets will be off and the game changes. The Volt will be the stay at home for long drive car and the BEV is the commuter everyday car.
The Jellybean car:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/23/mitsubishi-imiev-price-cut-plug-in-hybrid-version-coming/
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:44 pm
I agree with LauraM. I would choose the Volt over the Tesla S regardless of price. My wife will not consider a 2 door car for family transportation. She also will not consider a BEV.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Lyle,
I just don’t know about the new features on the site. I like it, but I keep feeling like I am going to miss someone’s reply to a comment if I don’t go back to the top and read back through the complete list of comments (after refreshing the page, of course). This takes a lot of time and I am not sure I don’t like the old method better. Sure we had to list at least the comment number or the person’s name we were responding to, but at least your comment appeared at the bottom of the other comments. If a person could wait about two days to start reading an article and all of the posted comments, you could probably feel like you are going to get to read nearly 100% of the comments and replies in one pass. Not a true 100% because I do find myself commenting on an article or someone’s posted comment even three or four days later. Many times I don’t even get a chance to look at the site from Friday afternoon until mid-morning Monday.
I like the new method and then I don’t like it. You see where I am coming from, I suppose. Give us a few more days and maybe ask our opinion in a poll question. Let the majority decide. What do you say?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:59 pm
@36 Statik, I figured as much but I have had more fun than most screwing up your name on purpose. I definately have no issues having a bit chucked back my way!
@38 Cap’n Jack, One mile to get your drinking hole in california.. You may well be good with a BEV!
@39 Truthguy, err… it’s based on the Lotus Elise, a 1000lb sports car. The origional is really quite fast with only 180hp. Definately a tiny car!
Since the Volt and the Cruise share the platform and the Cruise is slated to replace the Cobalt it’s a fair assumption that both the Volt and Cruise are about the same size as the current Cobalt.
@42, Lee Harvey;
First of all if a first issue Tesla S makes 300 miles (~500km) on a charge driven like a sport sedan with the heater or AirCon running (seasonally dependant) I WILL eat my hat!
I think my hat is extremely safe.
Second point, how much money will a “300 mile” battery cost? I’m going with a LOT.
The next thing is a question, what happens when the Inlaws house is 400 miles away? You are thinking I should plug into a fast charge tree or bear I take it?
I NEVER stop overnight on the 6.5-7 hour trip over the Rocky Mountains to the inlaws, with the Tesla I would HAVE to. A Volt will have no problem getting to the mother-in-laws Toast and Jam (homemade jam… mmmmmm) same day.
Even if the price were the same (and it won’t be!) I would still go for the Volt!
Before you jump on me here I obviously do not make this trip every day or even every month. So it makes absolutely no sense in my mind to buy “500 miles” of battery for those occasional trips. I will happily take the fuel sipping clean (optimized) range extender and use the money I didn’t spend on a huge battery to put my kids through University.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Anyone who tries to use a rechargeable drill for any kind of large project (drywall for a start) soon learns that you have to have 2 batteries, with one recharging all the time. It’s handy not having to drag a cord around, but you sure don’t become independent of the grid or a generator.
So I guess you could haul your generator, a spare battery, and a charger around in a trailer behind your Tesla S. Maybe it could be a fashion statement like the car. Do it up in a mini Airstream, or one of those mini teardrop camping trailers from the ’50s. Or maybe Elon’s design team can come up with some contemporary version. Make it look like an aircraft drop tank, or a SpaceEx launch vehicle, LOL. Tough to parallel park in the city though.
BTW, wouldn’t a generator big enough to keep up with the load of a car be a lot bigger than the average Honda camping or contractor generator? And how much is a spare battery for a Tesla S? Oh well.
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Tesla, Nissan and Ford surely deserve every penny the U.S. Government has bestowed on these fine companies. I am so grateful that the Obama administration has recognized that other companies besides GM can deliver the next generation of EVs for this country. Telsa and Nissan are putting many Americans back to work with these funds. The last I heard from GM was more layoffs AFTER they took billions. I am sure Ford, Tesla and Nissan will make great electric vehicles even though they are getting just a small fraction of what GM has already gotten (which GM quickly squandered I might add). I urge American citizens to objectively evaluate which of these companies is having the greatest return on their investment. GM ? I think not.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Since I represent the vast majority of the people in this country I shall have the final say. Obama made a great decision today. Development of electric cars is important to our future and our tax dollars should not be given to one company. Nissan has a great vision for how this country will use electrics and we must give them a chance. Once we see how the citizens of Nashville adapt to Nissan’s plan it can be used as a model for the rest of the Nation. Thank you President Obama, a very wise man.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm
@MuddyRoverRob 51
“I NEVER stop overnight on the 6.5-7 hour trip over the Rocky Mountains to the inlaws, with the Tesla I would HAVE to. ”
That’s the scenario most folks will have. We take the lon azz drive to Disnelyand and 6 Flags MAgic Mountain from Northern CA every 2-3 months. The Volt fits the job there. But for me a BEV for work is all I need/want.
” I will happily take the fuel sipping clean (optimized) range extender and use the money I didn’t spend on a huge battery to put my kids through University.”
How many batt packs you were you expecting on buyin?…..
lol
I duno about the college funding in your state but here in CA we’re screwed. State funding has crashed and prices per unit will escalate. Parking, books, units and other course materials, man we’re hosed.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:21 pm
@48 Jackson Hole
‘quote’
I admire Mr. Musk greatly. If only GM could have a CEO like that. The Volt being a Hybrid or Semi-Electric is a very good point. I think the Volt should not be mentioned in the same category as a Tesla Roadster or Tesla S. These a true electric cars that are environmentally friendly. The Volt is just another Hybrid and should only be compared to other Hybrids like the Prius or Fusion. Elon Musk has indeed set the bar very high, a true pioneer in the industry.
————————————————————————-
First of all The Volt is an electric car with options other than going home at 40 miles. Most days I can see the engine not running at all. Definately NOT just a hybrid.
Mr Musk has shaken the establishment and for that I congratulate him.
What needs to be understood is that once the production line starts up GM will make more Volts a month than Tesla motors will have made to date, total.
I believe that if you have the means go for it, buy your hand built car! I’ll be jealous! Really! Personally I have a Morgage and two kids, one in University and one just a few years away. I don’t have that much money to burn for a car that has to stay home for my longer trips. (There are no fast charging stations in the Canadian Rockies that I am aware of.)
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Off topic ( i didnt read anything above this, sorry)
I just ran across another x-former video of the blue Volt & other new GM cars and thought I’d share
Das vidanya
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid14508179001?bclid=14872429001&bctid=14976375001
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm
I agree that this hyper-thread format is confusing. It takes the “deeper discussion” into too many directions.
Are you sure you’re not trying to impose the forum model onto post comments?
I was on the point of trying “email notification” as a means of finding a follow up to a comment, but …. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I get more than enough emails already.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Voting thing?
/not Cap’n Jack
//still confused
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Voting thing?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:31 pm
there is a generator in the construction site, my point is TESLA cars, mandatory you need to plug it in when the battery is depleted, unlike VOLT, you’ll have the option to extend your range by the onboard generator…and if the gas tank is depleted then you still have the option to find a gasoline station to extend your range…
voltec technology in my cordless tools!!! why not????
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I can’t wait to get behind the wheel of my Tesla S and will happily sign that 20 year lease agreement. I will make it my personal mission to seek out the nearest Volt on the road and promptly spread some Tesla dust on its windshield as I rapidly overtake the GM hybrid. Move, Follow or Get out of my way Chevy.
S.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:35 pm
@John Q. Public 53
Wouldn’t be funny if when all these new EV’s hit the market, the one mfgr that didn’t get any US loans or US assitance beats them all?
The little Jellybean that could……maybe
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/23/mitsubishi-imiev-price-cut-plug-in-hybrid-version-coming/
OK, I favor this particular BEV. It used to be the Th!nk but it went into the Dr!nk.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:43 pm
@54 Cap’n Jack;
It ain’t cheap here in Canada either, It’s working out close to $16kcdn a year for the one in university (including rent)
You have to figure that a 300 mile battery pack has to cost 5-6 times that of the Volt, right? So if we figure the Volts pack is $10k usd (it’s a guess but ballparkish) then a 300 mile pack should cost between $60-70k usd. Or am I missing something?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I enjoyed the long story. Whether by link or inclusion in this blog, it was a great story. It confirms my view that we have no great patriotic, constitutional following people in our present congress, the executive branch or in the judicial branch for that matter. For all intents and purposes our constitution is dead and is only part of our daily fabric in memory only. None of our branches of government follow the constitution. They all bend and break its principles and laws. Yes, we have lost something that may never be recovered. Nay, we have lost something that can never be recovered.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Another thing about this hyper-threading in the replies is that it begs for thread-jacking.
Here’s an example
:
I’ve driven a straight shift for most of my 30+ year driving career; but now my legs are starting to give out (knees, gout attacks, etc), and I sometimes find myself in bumper-to-bumper bum-leg clutch agony.
I’d already determined that my current 2002 Saturn SL2 was going to be my last straight-shift car, and my VOLT PLAN A was to continue driving it until 1) Volt is available, 2) the Saturn falls apart. It now looks a lot like the SL2 has out-lasted me!
So, now I need an automatic; and I have to pick from what’s out there right now. I don’t want to sacrifice mpg or the quick off-the-mark you can get from a straight shift (if you know how). This means a small car. Preferably a fun small car. I also don’t need to spend a lot of money (as for an existing hybrid) since this is actually a (minimum 5 year) bridge car to Volt or better. I’d rather not buy a used car. Frankly, at this moment, none of this is a description of any American car.
Downsides: I’ll be waiting longer than most of you for Volts in showrooms. I won’t be able to contribute to this goal with an actual GM purchase.
Upsides: I’ll actually be waiting for Volt GEN II or III, with lower cost and better performance. That is, if NEW GM survives 5 – 6 years with more than a few collector’s items in it’s wake.
I’m updating my profile for “maximum I would spend” to a lower figure to reflect this. For one thing, I was counting on saved money for the Volt, these days I may be forced to cut into some of that for the interim-mobile.
So, I have to do what’s right for myself; but feel guilty to those of you on this board who have been reading my replies for a couple of years. I feel like I’m letting you all down.
I guess you can use the spiffy new voter-thingy to express your understanding or contempt.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Aw, that was a touchy-feeling post noel, and I know exactly what you mean and feel the same way…although I do not express it nearly as well as you do.
I don’t know what the ‘potential’ of our little online community here is to the greater environment, but it has meaning to me, and is part of my day that I always look forward to…so thanks to everyone for that.
All the best to you, and to the rest of our little group as well (even you h*******-lover Michael Robinson, wherever you are)
Stat
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:55 pm
#58 CaptJackSparrow (are we back to this system?)
They may not have gotten any help from the US government but they got plenty from the Japanese government. $14,300 instead of $7,500. It kinds of puts the importance of the Japanese market into perspective. Important for regular cars? No. But for EVs? Let’s just say it gives the japanese automakers a very big advantage.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10257937-48.html
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:59 pm
BEV: Perfect for people who can spend big money on an “extra” car.
EREV: Perfect for people who want electric benefits from their only car, at less than “big money.”
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June 23rd, 2009 at 3:59 pm
@Jackson 60
“Downsides: I’ll be waiting longer than most of you for Volts in showrooms. I won’t be able to contribute to this goal with an actual GM purchase.”
No worries and no Beef from here. Aw man, I won’t be able to buy till Gen 2 maybe 3 either. My furloughs are 18months out and we lost our COLA (Cost of Living Adjustment) for the next 2 yrs. I intend to convert a small pickup truck for me to hold me over. This priced to the tune of I think $12K for the whole thing. Much less than $40K
Someone should come out with a really inexpensive method of taking these “Legacy” type ICE vehicles and convert them to EV. Most places charge an arm and a leg with one Testicle to do it…..
Sheeeeesh!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I meant that it is kind of a useless once you get into the blogs because the running total is not next to the all the comments. The tally is being kept but not shown next to the comments.
I think a running total of ALL the blogs plus replies is a good idea for the reason you state.
So maybe there is a way to have a total for original blogs, and another subtotal for blogs plus replies, ie. the replies would be numbered somehow.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:02 pm
@57 Speed Racer;
You can go get your speeding ticket, I’ll drive my Volt or my {insert another car here, iMev, Aptera (well not here), Orlando, Silverado!} happily home at the speed loimit. Since I’ll be able to buy both for less money than a single 300 mile range “S”.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Okay, I see it now (I may be slow, but I get there in the end).
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Tim, thanks for the link. I found it very informative. I am sorry, but I see no chance of resurrecting the United States as envisioned in the minds of our founding fathers and the Constitution. They are both dead and gone from the scene. Replaced by a living document some call a constitution but is in reality only an excuse to pass whatever laws and regulations they see fit to serve their needs at the moment.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Musk went to great effort, for a guy who is CEO of two technology companies, is fighting at least one lawsuit, parenting kids from a previous marriage, and has a fiance that is herself a busy actress, to take the time explain that he was not attacking the Volt; and I don’t get the impression after all that, his message was an attempt to say, “the Volt is just another hybrid.”
If that’s your take, there are many resources to explain how the current generation of hybrids, that in the aggregate reduce fossil fuel use themselves by millions of gallons, are also different from the Volt as planned.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Jim I Your finely addressed point on APPLES and oranges is well taken. And per many companies making cars, right you are about the start up costs and all the bureaucracy to hurdle. The 1910’s & 20’s were simpler yet so inventive times indeed.
That Tesla, or Fisker have done better than Tucker is amazing. I think however that says something about the changed nature of design, manufacturing and pulling components together of which many contributing factors can be applied. That I could sit here in front of my Mac and, well, design a car, of sorts, while pulling all the technical details of stress loads… and even tracking down venders for components is rather novel. I do think that is how the fairly recent suborbital space launch was done, sans NASA/big government. Oh, and creative thought unbridled unlike NASA and it’s Mister Scrooge sugerdaddy.
Yes, a Model T or A or Volkswagen on a mass market scale is needed but perhaps we are at still more of a beginning stage in the arena of electric storage units and thus we have the Volt and others. And like all the once independent makes that were bought by Durant that formed GM, Tesla may very well be bought but then perhaps it is more than just about the money at Tesla as they have plenty of money.
Thank you for your kind reply. I have enjoyed the dialog.
Regards!——Higgins
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Agreed!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:09 pm
And not that any of us care (and it’s not like I’m in the running), but do “replies” to a reply get counted in the all important ‘Most Comments / Top Poster’ list?
Looking at the bottom, I think this must have already occurred to Cap’n Jack (Statik beware!!!!!)
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I agree. The range extender is the deal maker for the Volt. If the Model S had a range extender, there would be no comparison. It would be the Model S all the way. Assuming a few other things. Like dependability, etc.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Is it just me, or are $5.9 billion to Ford and $1.6 billion to Nissan(!) bigger stories than this loan to Tesla?
There’s a lot of interesting stuff on allcarselectric.com today. Plug in hybrid Miev anyone?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
@LauraM
“CaptJackSparrow (are we back to this system?)”
lol…
You noticed!?
I don’t like the new format. % threads up i’m in a thread then 8 more above that i’m in a thread and I have to scroll for each to see the next/last comment.
Besides, After 2 Long Island Iced Teas at lunch it gets confusing. Just try it, we’ll go get drinks tomorrow at lunch and you’ll se the confusion with beer glasses on.
lol
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:14 pm
@60 Jackson;
I feel your pain my friend, it’s a sad day when you are pretty sure you “can’t” kick that 18 year olds butt!
Mine is a good kid but some days…
The Cobalt
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/family/cobalt.do
or The Malibu
http://www.chevrolet.com/vehicles/2009/malibu/overview.do
Both reasonably priced and likely killer deals to be had at the dealership.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:20 pm
@MuddyRoverRob 59
“You have to figure that a 300 mile battery pack has to cost 5-6 times that of the Volt, right? ”
I dunno how much one would cost. If you look at the Volt where it is used only for 50% and you get 40AER, then if you opend it to 100% you could maybe get 80AER. Either way, any batt pack with a 300MPC is gonna cost a boatload and weigh a sh|tload. I think a BEV is a great commuter car niche. That’s all most will need it for.
)
Of course in these sh|tti economic times people will need only one car or two (one for the spousal unit) so the Volt will fit the car for all occasions form factor.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Maybe ExxonMobil sees that EVs are inEVitable and wants to develop a new revenue stream
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:25 pm
@Jackson Hole 48
Musk needs a PR person. Period.
He doesn’t ned to keep up the fluff, just get back to what he likes doing.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Right you jolly well are Corvette Guy! I know this has been chewed on as much as Zeus & Apollo would do so but the original Volt concept form was amazing inside to the outside and was, well, simply stunning, at least to me and the Boys. What GM did to “Dinette Set” the car was equally amazing. Dumbing down, how mundane of GM. And yes, the aerodynamic crowd will once again remind me of the need to do this and that to get closer to the egg look to be efficient. The point A to B crowd is there but the Volt is unique and expensive.
Eventually there will be a Volkswagen/Model T for the masses.
Regards!——–Higgins
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
UR funny
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Tesla is getting almost half a billion dollars of the taxpayers money to develop a car that is a rich man’s plaything.
A car not for the masses, not a family car.
Meanwhile, GM & Chrysler are herded through bankruptcy proceedings.
Tesla will get this money & use it until it drys up in a effort to build a car no one can afford.
I see why the rest of the world laughs at us.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:37 pm
You wisely omitted the Daihatsu-made Aveo.
Yes, I’ve looked at these. Not enough MPG on the Cobalt (with automatic), way too big / too expensive for the Malibu.
If only the Cruze had come a tad sooner …
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:42 pm
It seems this nested reply approach is generating more discussion, so I deem it a success.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:46 pm
@67 Cap’n Jack;
Exactly! Without actual details we’re guessing of course on costs, but in any case with Tesla doing the best they could possibly do I still save a couple years of University tuition money with a Volt instead of an “S”!
In my case it’ll likely be a Volt and a gas car.
MissusRover will drive the Volt (the new car) and I’ll likely keep the old Malibu for the time being (Which gets really very good mileage as long as I drive gentle-like.)
Even doing most of the running about in the Volt I expect the engine would only fire up a couple times a week. This way we would be using most/all of the battery capacity at nearly the ideal level. I can’t wait to see the average fuel usage running 90-some percent on battery! Yes I know, another point where we agree to dis-agree!
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June 23rd, 2009 at 4:56 pm
@Guy Incognito 69
“Tesla will get this money & use it until it drys up in a effort to build a car no one can afford.”
The Loan $$$ was for tooling of mfgr facilities and has no requirements for product affordability.
Or am I missing it?
I can gurantee you Tesla will probably sell more Mode S that the roadster. Either wya my broke azz can’t afford one.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 5:28 pm
I agree completely, and that’s why I keep coming back. I feel like I know all of you and have come to respect your views, even when you are wrong
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June 23rd, 2009 at 5:33 pm
I see 3 factors hindering electric cars:
1) Distance: you will often be trapped to 1/2 the advertised range. Sure we all have plugs at home, but not every kerbside has a plug, nor are they common in the woods.
2) Charge times: most people don’t want to hang around a charge station for several hours.
3) Depletion mid way: if you run out of electricity between destinations, you are stuffed.
These 3 things are a strong consideration to getting an electric vehicle.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 5:50 pm
If one cares to actual know something about the Tesla battery (ESS) read their white paper:
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
They put a little more engineering into it than a lot of people like to give them credit for. Why do you think Mercedes is using it instead of developing there own or using one of the myriad of other competitors out there?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Here’s an idea to help know when a new post has occurred well-above where the last post is.
You could have a “time stamp” between the numbered posts that would not have a number to it, and, to say something like,
[time stamp here] “Dan Petit Says” a Reply in post #1.
Dan.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Great comment, other than Tesla deserves the credit of which Elon deserves his share for ponying up the cash to make it happen. There were some others that actually spawned the idea and developed it (Martin Eberhard, Mark Tarpening, JB Strubel, etc).
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Is your beef with the ATVM loans in general or that Tesla was awarded some of it? I can see the argument, although I don’t agree with it, that the government should never do anything to pull industry but I don’t see how Tesla is less qualified than a Japanese company and a likely soon to be bankrupt American company to receive the loans.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Let go of the hate. The loan is to fund the production facility for the Model S and Bluestar. They are not 1000 per year cars, which the Roadster isn’t either (production is now running close to 2000/yr, no big number but 100% more than your underexaggerated one). When is going to sink in that EV’s are not for the mainstream yet. The prices are just NOT THERE YET. If the government tries to finance a company through to profitablility by starting with a car for the masses, it will cost a fortune and may never get paid back.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:10 pm
The great thing about America is that all cars dont need to be the SAME. Tesla’s S, and GM’s Volt will provide whatever their respective owners need from them.
I for one like them both and would be more than happy to own either one.
Steve in Boca Raton
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Tesla is developing a system which is projected to top out at 20,000 after starting at 10,000 cars a year for the model S. ( http://wot.motortrend.com/6499608/green/tesla-model-s-revealed-sedan-to-hit-60-in-under-6-sec-seat-7-go-300-miles/page3.htm )
GM wants to get into the millions. It’s going to take more than the DOE loans of $465 for Tesla to get there. They have already spent millions to get the concept cars out. And millions more on the in-production Roadster as proof of concept.
GM is attempting to build a production base for more complicated Volts, other electrics like the Converj and Ampera, and a lot of new hybrids that can be improved by Voltec development knowledge. ( http://gm-volt.com/2009/06/22/gm-advanced-battery-lab-tour-wvideo-part-i/ ) They didn’t have an up to date base to build from like Tesla’s Roadster to Model S program.
Would it be so surprising that GM would need more much money than Tesla needs to continue toward building their, just one more, all electric car, in vastly lower volumes?
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Its an experiment. I think its possible for two sets of people to emerge from this, those who prefer the old system and those who prefer the new. Both may even coexist. A poll/vote at the end of the week may be possible.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:40 pm
URL above is missing an L at the end ( http://wot.motortrend.com/6499608/green/tesla-model-s-revealed-sedan-to-hit-60-in-under-6-sec-seat-7-go-300-miles/page3.html )
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:54 pm
I kind of wish this had its own thread, because it is a lot more important to GM that anything Tesla got today…as they (Tesla) are just a ’boutique house’ as compared to the other major automakers that got cash today. The details are as follows:
NISSAN:
—gets 1.6 billion to “update the Smyrna, TN factory to build up to 150,000 battery electric vehicles and 200,000 lithium ion battery packs annually”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/23/officially-official-nissan-gets-1-6b-doe-loan-to-build-evs-b/
FORD:
—gets 5.9 billion to bring to bring “13 more fuel efficient models” to market” and a couple EVs
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/23/officially-official-ford-gets-5-9b-from-doe-in-atvmp-funds-for/
These two companys are ‘players’ They both have real EV projects that are at the same stage as the Volt and/or at a further advanced development stage than the Volt.
Although they both are scheduled to hit the market about a year later than GM’s very optimistic (imo) November 2010, it is significant that both of their projects are now FULLY funded…and GM’s still is not. (early 2012 for Ford, and late 2012 for Nissan (2010 in Japan))
Hopefully, (and I say that looking at it from GM’s point of view, and a guy who wants a Volt…not from the taxpayer’s viewpoint), GM can get through the 363 quickly, and thereby dip into the remaining 17 billion dollar pot at the DOE to really put some traction behind the project.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 6:56 pm
When we get fast-charging infrastructure up, we should do it in a new way. Instead of the gas station format, we should instead just have little machines next to parking spots, where it’s all automated and you insert dollar bills or change or credit to prepay per kwh. They could be next to parking meters on city streets, or we could set them up in parking lots in between parking rows. Refueling away from home could be just something that happens while you park and go out on the town, with no interruption in your activities.
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