AND 
GM and Toyota, What Will be?
GM has recently announced it will be discontinuing the Pontiac Vibe, twin to the Toyota Matrix, currently built at the NUMMI plan in California. NUMMI is a joint venture between GM and Toyota which has been in existence since the 1980s.
Now that GM is going through bankruptcy, it remains unclear what will happen to the joint-venture operation, and what cars may be built there in the future. Furthermore, there have been rumors that Toyota might bring Prius production to NUMMI. Other rumors have indicated Toyota officials offering to “give” GM access to their synergy drive hybrid engineering, analogous to the time Microsoft once propped up Apple when it was on the verge of bankruptcy.
I recently had the opportunity to get one question in to Troy Clarke, who is GM’s VP of North America:
What are some possible options under consideration for GM’s involvement in NUMMI, and is GM considering licensing the synergy drive hybrid system from Toyota?
Lyle, With regard to Nummi we are still in discussions with Toyota on the JV and potential products. We are not in current discussions with Toyota on licensing their synergy drive. I would point out that we are working like crazy on our own hybrid technology. Also, we are really moving fast on the Volt of which you are well aware. By the way, thanks for your support.
75 Responses to “GM and Toyota, What Will be?”
Leave a Reply
Recent Posts
- GM Will Not Create a Line of Volt-Branded Vehicles
- Video: GM’s Rough Road Chevy Volt Testing
- Chevy Volt is the Centerpiece for Many Rapidly Emerging Industries
- GM Wins* October Sales Race; Decides to Keep Opel Citing Improved Financial Health
- One-Year Left to Volt Launch: Has the Date Slipped?
- GM’s Expectations for the Chevy Volt
- 7 Questions for Site Founder/Neurologist/NYC Marathon Runner Lyle Dennis
- Volt Chief Frank Weber Going to Opel
- GM Delays Launch of Volt’s ‘Sister’ Car, the Chevrolet Cruze
- GM CEO Says Help Needed to Achieve Mass Adoption of Electric Cars
Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts
- Embrace technology to turn nuclear energy into environmental solution November 6, 2009From the Seattle Times: "STEWART Brand, author of "The Whole Earth Catalog," visited Seattle last week, promoting his latest environmental manifesto... […]misslexi
- Lutz to Head Opel November 6, 2009Der Spiegel reports that Lutz is going to head up Opel: Spiegel Online(link)... […]dagwood55
- Do home chargers include meters? November 6, 2009I conduct a real-world fuel economy survey (http://www.truedelta.com/fuel_economy.php), and will want to adapt it for electric and range-extended... […]mkaresh
- HHSE (Hybrid-Hybrid-Serial-Electric) vehicle invented November 5, 2009A HHSE is a cross between using a lower efficiency but more functional serial hybrid drivetrain for city driving and using a mechanical drivetrain to... […]Texas
- Renault, Nissan to build $892 million battery factory outside Paris November 5, 2009“This will be the center of our lithium battery production for all of our assembly plants and for other carmakers,” Ghosn said. “It’s a major... […]Texas
- GM to cut 10,000 Jobs Across Europe After Sudden U-Turn on Opel Deal November 5, 2009Max Keiser on Russia Today. " ... General Motors cut ten thousand jobs across Europe at its Opel unit in favor of Christmas bonuses." -Max... […]Guy Incognito
- Nissan Releases Concept Sketch Of Light Commercial Electric Vehicle November 5, 2009NISSAN RELEASES CONCEPT SKETCH OF LIGHT COMMERCIAL ELECTRIC VEHICLE _Link_... […]Jason M. Hendler
GM-Volt.com is not affiliated with General Motors Company
All contents copyright 2007-2009 GM-Volt.com, LLC - All Rights Reserved
Home | Contact | Privacy Policy | About | Back to Top
June 21st, 2009 at 2:13 pm
(click to show comment)
June 21st, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Wow, Dmitrii, who the hell cares?
Anyway, if I remember correctly, there was a post on Autobloggreen that had Toyota debunking those hybrid exchange rumors. The Synergy Drive is vastly inferior to Voltec anyway.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Retool it for production of the EREV Chevy Cruze.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Stopping production of the Vibe is a big mistake. It is a decent seller, looks good and gets great fuel economy. They should make the it the Chevy Vibe.
If I could have gotten in on the cash for clunkers program (my cars get more than 18 MPG) I would have bought one.
That being said it would be great if Gm and Toyota collaborated on an EV or Hybrid.
After all the batteries are ready and have been ready since 1996. The first Nimh EV1 that Cobays installed batteries in the mid 1990’s had over a 200 mile range. (This version was never released to the public) The Solectria Sunrise had a range of 375 miles. An EV1 with lithium Ion batteries could have an estimated range of over 300 miles.
Let’s put our country’s national security ahead of oil company special interests and get to it. We can be energy independent.
I’ve got one more thing to get off my chest! Why isn’t the government going after Chevron for restraint of trade. Mercedes is suing Chevron/ Cobays for refusing to deliver batteries.
Even if you believe Nimh is obsolete (I don’t),why is Chevron able to break the law and put our national security at risk and the justice department doesn’t investigate?
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 3:06 pm
About the EV1
I would be interested in what the range of the the EV1 would be with as many lithium Ion cells they could cram in the space the Nimh batteries took up. I bet it could go 300mi or more.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 3:07 pm
I think GM just might want to break with the past, and have clear separations from other OEM’s.
I don’t think synergy drive is all that great an advantage to GM for the new consumer expectations that Voltec is producing, and, ultimately when the Prius traction battery goes out at about 130,000, you have to cough up $4,000 for another battery.
I’d bet in the10 years or so, a Volt replacement battery will be $4,500 installed if you needed to buy one by then.
This would be why I don’t think synergy drive has anything whatsoever in common with the Voltec true-distance powertrain, and, I fail to understand why Prius buffs keep comparing the Prius to Voltec when there is just nothing substantial in common whatsoever between the functionalities of either.
Dan.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 3:27 pm
What date did Chevron/Cobasys fail to deliver to Mercedes?
If by choice and not by honest production problems, what might that portend if Exxon is to supply some battery maker with their advertised
“Thin film insulator for hybrids” if they are making something like that for hybrid batteries ( on that Exxon commercial as seen on PBS) ?
Dan.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 3:33 pm
(click to show comment)
June 21st, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Dr. Dennis,
I really like the new way the reply toggle works!!
*************
Coolness!
*************
Dan.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Thanks Dan, we have been working to improve the functionality of the comments section, after all the discussion is what this site is all about.
You guys will also notice a new little vote up/vote down symbol that allows the community to determine which comments are the best (or worst)
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Dr. Dennis,
Does an UP cancel a Down? Would it be more revealing if the counts were separated on either side of the icons?
That way, we could become more aware of how many votes have been, and, if we need to moderate ourselves somehow regarding something we wrote, or, it there are no votes at all, that might mean something else. Feedback is important for all kinds of improvement, especially if posters want to always improve themselves. (And, voting only once per email per post). Thanks!!
Dan.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 4:13 pm
You seem to get one “best” and one “worst” vote, is that right?
Not “agree” or “disagree”.
And, it would likely help to go back after the day is out to then rescan the thread before voting. Seeing where the high numbers are (either up or down) might be helpful instead of reading everything, going from the highest “ups” to the lower tally “ups”, and, then from the highest tally “downs” to the lower tally “downs”.
Dan.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Thanks for this improvement Lyle, however I don’t know if using different computers I connot vote twice. (I’ll try tomorrow at the office). In this case, some results could be biased.
Regards,
JC NPNS
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Someone woke up on the wrong side of bed!
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Wondering why Synergy Drive is vastly inferior to Voltec ?
In extended range mode Its true that Volt is carrying extra weight without any advantage ( or only advantage is to keep the centre of gravity down ).
You should say a 10 mile voltec is equal to HSD. So a 40 mile Voltec at extended ranged mode should be inferior to HSD because of dead weight?
In High way speeds HSD allows ICE to run wheels where volt has 2 conversion losses ( again its inefficient – add with extra weight)
n Nummi : Yes VIbe is good car , I think GM is doing mistake by shutting Pontiac ( it has good cars and most are unique : Vibe, G8, old ones – sunfire, aztek, GTO etc ) and it got a nice logo.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 5:01 pm
130,000 miles? $4,000? Neither is correct.
Owners have been driving to the expected lifetime of 180,000 miles in fairly high quantity. Some exceed that. And price is $2,800 for those that would want a new one, rather than a much cheaper (around $500) salvage battery.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Also, how come you can expect the Volt battery replacement to go down in price but not Prius… especially when both will be using similar Li-Ion cells.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 5:18 pm
The functionality of the system is WYSIWYG, we’ll see how it goes.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 5:30 pm
This new format for replies is neat. I often don’t bother to reply to someone because I figure I’m too late to the party for anyone to care.
It’s also great for continuity, if you’re following one debate but not another.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 5:35 pm
More than likely it’s 1 vote per IP address in a given period of time. In all fairness, I seriously doubt people are going to waste their time to try and sabotage someone elses comment being repeatedly leaving negative feedback, lol.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 5:51 pm
I just checked some specs on the Vibe, and I’m confused!!
First, I do think the Vibe is definitely a cool looking car. I would seriously consider buying one if not for the seriously poor fuel economy and engine performance.
Sure, the 1.8L is fair on fuel economy, but it’s only 132HP and 128lb-ft. All other powertrain options are weaker in both HP and torque and fuel economy is similar to my 2003 Malibu with the 3.1L V6. It’s stupid. A newer car with identical fuel economy and a weaker performing engine…. Apparently the engine is from Toyota…. which surprises me, because it appears that the Japanese engine is far less efficient when compared to an engine that has been around since 1994 (or so) and has had only minimal changes to it since that date (as far as I know).
I would take a Cobalt though!!
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 5:54 pm
I really don’t see a need for a GM Toyota joint venture, then or now.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Zach,
EPA mileage changed significantly in 2008. The Vibe was rated 29/36 before the change and 25/31 after. The 2009 1.8L is adequate. I imagine it struggles, as most small engine cars do, up steep slopes but don’t know for sure being in South Florida.
I’m surprised they didn’t rebadge the Vibe as a Chevy (or GMC) but perhaps they plan to re-introduce it under another brand with some design updates.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 6:22 pm
“The plant also produces the Toyota Matrix which of which the Vibe is the twin sister.” [sic]
NUMMI *does not* build the Toyota Matrix.
It seems every other report I read about the plant these days has this INACCURATE little tidbit attached to it.
NUMMI builds Toyota Corollas and Tacomas. The Matrix is built in Canada.
http://www.nummi.com
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 6:33 pm
I think we are missing the more likely outcome here.
With regards to NUMMI, I think GM takes this opportunity to get the heck out of Dodge…and can use the bankruptcy proceeding to leave Toyota holding the bag on this one. NUMMI hasn’t been exactly what they envisioned it would be, at least not as it stands now.. Toyota is currently rolling Corollas/Matrix (Matrices?) out…with some Tacomas on the side.
Also for GM directly, why bring another line into that facility when they can potentially soak up hundreds of millions from local governments to ‘bring jobs’ to a new state (I believe they are currently courting Tennessee, Wisconsin and of course…Michigan)
If/when GM leaves than I think Toyota would be all to happy to use that as a excuse to walk away themselves.
The problem with NUMMI is the high labor costs ie) old school UAW wages. I think Toyota would see GM’s exodus as a mixed blessing. A good opportunity to lose the Tacoma line, and to move the Corolla/Matrix (if they decide to keep it going) to a non union factory. I’m thinking this would be a good opportunity to restart the much bally-hooed Mississippi plant that is constructed…but not in use.
Toyota was going to build SUVs in the new Mississippi factory, then scrapped that idea (for obvious reasons)…then they charged plans to maybe build the 2010 Prius there, but never committed. The plant sits unused, waiting for a product to make.
With GM exiting NUMMI, that gives Toyota leave to walk as well, which would leave Toyota looking for another place to build Corollas…and as luck would have it, the Prius also rolls on a Corolla frame (and shares a lot of parts)…so perfect for the Mississippi facility (with its low overhead costs).
So my 2p/guess on what is going to happen: GM is out totally, and will use bankruptcy as its cover to get out of the joint partnership. GM goes elsewhere, and sucks up compensation money/tax breaks from another state. Toyota is likely going to scrap the whole thing when GM rolls out….and the reason we aren’t hearing any plans right now, is that they have nothing good to say. So why ’spook’ the herd?
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 6:35 pm
When the Vibe line closes in August, I expect it will be switched to producing the new Prius, they are selling like hotcakes.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 7:30 pm
#6 Lyle said:
You guys will also notice a new little vote up/vote down symbol that allows the community to determine which comments are the best (or worst)
#8b Zach said:
More than likely it’s 1 vote per IP address in a given period of time. In all fairness, I seriously doubt people are going to waste their time to try and sabotage someone elses comment being repeatedly leaving negative feedback, lol.
===================
Yes, no one is going to do any sabotaging at all, hehe. I look forward to my first -100 post.
Where is that h******* guy, I got a whole bag of thumbs down ready to go, lol. (I do know his name…but I just don’t want to say it because I’m just kidding).
I think the thumbs up/thumbs down is great Lyle…it might stop people from having to defend themselves against ‘outrageous’ statements and/or over the top/harsh responses. It should also really give some insight on how the board feels about a particular stance, (which is cool). Hopefully people can handle getting negative feedback and don’t take it too personally.
Sidenote: I confess to voting on my own post in #12 just to see it work. In a shocking, related development, I voted thumbs up…it was both a insightful and thought provoking post in my totally unbiased opinion (…and mostly free of spelling errors to boot)
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:04 pm
The hell with the Japanese car companies. They’ve been using our generosities for too long!! Now that the domestic car companies have gotten rid of their ailment, it is time to show what we are made of and go back to the glory days!! We don’t need any joint efforts of any kind.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:14 pm
The CSRIO’s ultrabattery has long been known as a replacement for NiMH. GM, Toyota and Honda have tested it as the battery to use in plug-in hybrids with small AER.
http://www.csiro.au/news/UltraBattery.html
http://www.csiro.au/science/Ultra-Battery.html
http://www.det.csiro.au/science/de_s/de_s_topics.htm
“The UltraBattery is a hybrid energy storage device that integrates a supercapacitor with a lead acid battery in one unit cell.”
“The UltraBattery offers a number of advantages over conventional car batteries:
* cycle life is four times longer
* 50 per cent more power than lead acid batteries counterparts
* approximately 70 per cent less expensive than current HEV battery systems
* faster charge and discharge rates.
Recent testing undertaken in the United Kingdom has further proved the UltraBattery’s capabilities with a HEV surpassing 100 000 miles under strict and challenging conditions, using the power of the advanced battery system.”
“CSIRO has signed an UltraBattery commercialisation and distribution agreement with Japan’s Furukawa Battery Company and United States manufacturer, East Penn.
The exclusive sub-license agreement will see the UltraBattery distributed by East Penn to the automotive and motive power sector throughout North America, Mexico and Canada while Furukawa Battery Company will release the technology in Japan and Thailand.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TH1-4V34D7H-4&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=935487486&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=26295d9908d69858c590d545b5d54068
http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=2913
“a set of twelve 12 V modules was built by The Furukawa Battery Co., Ltd. in Japan and were fitted into a Honda Insight instead of the NiMH battery by Provector Ltd. The battery pack was fitted with full monitoring and control capabilities and the car was tested at Millbrook Proving Ground under a General Motors road test simulation cycle for an initial target of 50 000 miles which was extended to 100 000 miles. This was completed on 15th January 2008 without any battery problems. Furthermore, the whole test was completed without the need for any conditioning or equalisation of the battery pack.”
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Toyota just can’t wait to get their hands on the Voltec HHR, I am sure that that will be the first GM Toyota joint venture exported to Japan! (hehe) Toyota realizes their Synergy drive will be second to Voltec, hence the alleged offer to share the technology to GM. They really just want a crack at a Voltec product.
/more likely, pretty much what Statik said. I will go give him a thumbs up.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:23 pm
I voted thumbs down on this one, just for fun. i noticed that as the first poster after this post there was already a thumbs down, and a hint in the post that he was looking for a quantity of negatives. So i have taken the bait.
/There is something about new technology that intrigues me!
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:24 pm
The upgrades to the posting system are a welcomed change.
Each day we post in an online forum we need to think how fortunate we are to be able to speak freely. We can walk to the kitchen to microwave a hot drink. Toast some whole grain bread for a quick sandwich. Go to any market and buy fresh fruit. Very fortunate.
Half of the world works for starvation wages and worries that a slip of the tongue could mean being pulled from society. Let’s keep these things in mind when posting.
Whether hybrid, EV or EREV. The public will not be “waiting” for what they exactly what or wish for. The public will seek what is available. Did you ever think Dr. Dennis would be driving an EV mini full time?
Manufactures who stall on producing EV will be left behind during the change over to electric technology. My advice, keep asking manufacturers when their EV will be out. And invest in electric power production stocks.
You may have heard that coal is going out of style. I agree coal use will eventually trend downward. But for now, and probably 10 more years, coal to electricity conversion will remain mainstream.
A final thought: There are more honor role students living in India than there are students attending school in the USA.
=D~
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Heck…put the Prius and Volt at NUMMI.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Hehe…I gave you a thumbs down on that same post #12, to see if the voty thing worked. So I nulled out your vote! Sorry, but I figured you of all people could handle the negativity.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:39 pm
—————————————–
I second that motion Joe. But oops! – I accidently hit the MINUS vote instead of the PLUS vote. Can someone undo this for me please.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Although some may believe coal use will dwindle, the Energy Information Administration projects coal use to increase by 50% between 2006 and 2030, and the percentage of coal used for electric power generation will increase from about 41% to 46%.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/highlights.html
For those worried about global warming from CO2 emissions, here are the projections,
“World carbon dioxide emissions are projected to rise from 29.0 billion metric tons in 2006 to 33.1 billion metric tons in 2015 and 40.4 billion metric tons in 2030—an increase of 39 percent over the projection period.”
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 8:56 pm
john1701a:
The replacement price for the 2004-2009 Prius battery is even lower, $2299.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/10/prius-battery.html
The local dealer still hasn’t replaced a single one (they’re the biggest Toyota dealer in the state, they say). Other sources put replacement rates for out-of-warranty batteries at under 1%. An article from 2006 mentioned that the only batteries Toyota had replaced out of warranty at that time were for accident repairs.
—
Dan Petit writes, “I fail to understand why Prius buffs keep comparing the Prius to Voltec when there is just nothing substantial in common whatsoever between the functionalities of either.”
Because we often hear Voltec afficionados tell us that this invisible car has rendered the Prius obsolete. We treat this idea with the scorn it deserves. The Prius is the platform that works. The Prius has saved more fuel, to date over a midsize car, than the Volt will until after 2014 (presuming it goes according to plan for GM).
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 9:34 pm
/thats it, you are both off my Christmas card list.
I can handle the redness, lay it on me, lol
(PS. I gave you both a thumbs up, heeh)
It is too bad it didn’t show the ‘total’ for and against…that way you could judge just how many people reacted at all to your posts. ie) 37 Up 36 down for +1, or just one +1 (And everytime I edit, it adds ‘another’ statik to my name…weird)
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 9:42 pm
______________________________________________________
Considering that Toyota is anti-plug-in (must use gas), I’m wondering why the above Prius graphic has a plug-in cord…or is that the Prius wind-up string?
______________________________________________________
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 10:20 pm
For anyone interested, there’s a cool video available now on the Tesla Model S sedan, including a lot of interior shots.
I still want my Volt, but I also enjoy keeping up with any EV-related technology.
http://www.oncars.com/video/494/2011-Tesla-Model-S-Part-1-of-3-Design
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Here is on link Dan:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/daimler-sues-cobasys-mercedes-ml-hybrid-delayed-or-cancelled/
You can also find it on autoblog green. I believe theree is another similar lawsuit against cobays.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 11:04 pm
I agree. What I see most likely is GM sells off it’s interest in NUMMI to raise cash and close that chapter. Currently NUMMI produces about 80% or more Toyota products. GM, let it go and take the money.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 11:42 pm
I think this is even more likely than what I posted above, however they do need a location to build the Tacoma that is still popular and used to be, I don’t know about now, mostly sold in California. Is it worth sticking with the UAW to do it though? No.
(Quote)
June 21st, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Why in the world would anyone build anything at the Nummi plant in Fremont California? The cost of business is so outrageously high in Californian in general and in the Bay Area in specific. In fact, in my industry (Semi-conductor) companies find it hard to attract people to live in the Bay Area because the housing is (still!) sky-high. Add to that a sales tax that will soon go up to almost 10%, high property taxes, layers and layers of regulation, etc. The best thing to do, IMO, is to shut the place down.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:44 am
It is the case, I tried today.
I agree with you Zach, but as I work in the field of statistics and social sciences , there is always an intellectual challenge to this sort of things.
Regards,
JC NPNS
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 3:05 am
When I saw the new ‘hotness’ of replies and voting I thought great for the replies but I don’t like the voting. The reason being, in 2007 when I joined a poster called Statik was banging on that there was no way GM could bring out the Volt before going bust. Most of us wondered if he was a troll, if he had got -16, -50 votes each day would he have stayed? As it turns out he was right on the money! John1701a is another who is not always popular but makes me think, and, hopefully, keeps us abreast of PHEV Prius news etc.
Having seen this 1st post I have changed my mind on the voting, I now like it.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:41 am
Another cool thing about it is for everyone who wishes they could be first but wakes up a little too late or can’t hit refresh quick enough you can just leach onto the first comment and be post 1D or something like that. YAY, I’m the sixth first!
As for the topic, I know GM has been working on their own hybrids although the light hybrids don’t give too many MPG’s for the money. But what if they approached it differently. Start with the Volt and make a “light Volt hybrid” Get a battery slightly bigger than that of the current Prius and leave the volt’s systems in tact. Essentially you’d almost always be running in Range extended mode. You’re ICE would be running at various sweet spots and the car would be 100% electric drive. This would add the cost of an electric motor but eliminate the transmission. The battery wouldn’t have to cost that much and the software/controls could be borrowed from the Volt. A 1KW battery should be plenty for this application.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:01 am
Kudos to the Prius for leading the charge… just don’t try to tell us it is the end all be all. You are correct in saying that, since the Volt has yet to be even produced, that the Prius leads the way. If things proceed on track then it is clear that the Voltec system is superior until someone develops a better and cheaper battery that can be charged quickly. Both cars are great and use less gas, no need to argue about that point.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:07 am
Have GM and Toyota sell the plant to Tesla ;-P
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:14 am
“The Glory Days”? You mean like the days when GM sued California to drop its zero emissions requirement? Or when they recalled all the EV1’s and crushed them? Wait! I know, you must mean the gigantic cars of the 1970’s that sucked in gas and spewed CO2 at a time when OPEC had us by the short hairs.
Yeah, I’m kind of nostalgic about that time too.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:49 am
Man, I just love the 17″ touch screen, way to go Tesla, and a 300 mile range would have covered ALL my driving so far this year. Too bad it’s out of my price range.
/sigh.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 6:00 am
Thanks for the insight (plus vote).
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:00 am
Uhh… The fact that a few companies (< 39, for sure) have recently announced new ventures or plans for future electric vehicles is hardly proof that GM is moving slowly with the Volt. If anything, it proves that they are moving faster than most, as they are beyond announcing business ventures and are actually building Volts as we speak.
You mentioned that EVs are coming out monthly in addition to business venture announcements, are you counting hybrids like the Prius in the 39? If you are, you will have a hard time convincing most people on this message board that the Prius is an EV. If you aren’t, then you must have miscounted, which is strange because there are only a few available at most… and that’s being generous.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:51 am
NZ David said:
“When I saw the new ‘hotness’ of replies and voting I thought great for the replies but I don’t like the voting. The reason being, in 2007 when I joined a poster called Statik was banging on that there was no way GM could bring out the Volt before going bust. Most of us wondered if he was a troll, if he had got -16, -50 votes each day would he have stayed?”
————–
I’m like that big black, planet killing thing in the Fifth Element, I would have just posted more and more, until the site closed from all my posting traffic. I would love to have had a few -100s back in the day on those threads
It is amusing to see it in action here (and on this ‘first’ post), but no one should take it too serciously.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:53 am
The reply is certainly better than having to post the item number and quote, then seach for any replies. Much nicer.
Thank you Dr.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 8:06 am
When you sit in a Prius, and you see the power flow characteristic for all the technology which Synergy Drive represents, it represents, when the battery is worn, a battery cost, and its labor to replace, and reprogramming, as well as two other associated things that also must be replaced, (not just a retail cost of the traction battery), that takes the bill up to about $4000. A wrecking-yard Prius battery is a very very bad deal and is an incomplete suggestion in the first place.
This is to have all that technology take you two blocks-at-a-time.
Toyota has had 10 years to get the cost of their battery down for the very limited job that it does, for all the internal cost characteristics that represent Synergy Drive.
While it is extremely well built for what it does, it still “Costs too much-does too little”. What it does has just never been sufficiently impressive enough for me.
Although it is a good first step for Toyota to go electric, they apparently had not sufficient motivation to go further until GM had caught them by surprise and has jumped ahead of Toyota with an entirely new approach to go 40 miles on 85 cents of electricity.
And, the other necessary part of this apparent new Toyota-change, is that America is fed up with primary-petroleum propulsion and everything else fossil related, as all of us discuss here.
Changing the way people think, as I knock on the various doors of auto repair shops all around Austin, the only ones that clearly do not want me there are the ones who are already extremely-financially-entrenched with a competing product that costs four times as much and does half the tests on a car. (All “reverse-engineered”, without the tremendous benefits of factory GM (and all the other OEM’s) factory-engineered testing software.)
But, still, they would never listen to all that (until they finally accept being “ticked-off” by the time they owe nothing more, or. it is time to update), because they are financially-entrenched with possibly very large indebtedness for that competing equipment.
Cars are just like that too. Our own ownership of a car represents our “wisdom at the time” we bought it, for the “technology at the time” we bought it.
Carefully balance your technical conclusions regarding Voltec, and, you will find that Voltec is technologically-competitive for 15 years out, for the job it will do, keeping the ICE from running the first 40 miles or so.
GM was affectionately know in the ’70’s as “Generous Motors” in part because GM allowed for aftermarket competition for parts when foreign OEM’s would do no such thing, to allow for economies of scale.
THIS is why *****GM***** is the one leading the way for these economies of scale. Toyota would never be able to do this, and will never do this. This is why I compare Prius battery cost to future Voltec battery costs, which, is the dynamic here.
************************************************************
This is the meaning of my post at the top here.
************************************************************
There is this whole historical technological
Spirit of America
tied directly to GM because of these things, which will never be dampened by anything said on the internet.
When I have to trace all the Scanning Code faults when things go wrong with Synergy Drive, (and the owner has just gotten a very scary EXCLUSIVE-estimate for repairs ranging from $4000 to $8,988 plus “two more diagnostic hours past the $8,988″ if there is also a code for “Hybrid Transaxle Damage”) the 10 year cost of the battery is not worth the re-investment for the job that battery does.
Why do I project-out for the cost of a 10 years-into-the-future Voltec battery cost?
It will be made in the USA, and, not as likely to be competition-restricted to the aftermarket like Toyota does.
This is something GM lets happen. It is what America has been all about, aftermarket competition, and it is one of the truly generous things that GM has come to represent for many of us in the independent auto repair shop. GM lets us all participate far better than any other OEM.
Sincerely,
Dan.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:05 am
In High way speeds HSD allows ICE to run wheels where volt has 2 conversion losses ( again its inefficient – add with extra weight)
_________________________
Regarding conversion factors, ICE’s haven’t reached efficiencies of higher than 22% tank to wheel anyway. Result : when Volt has traveled about 40 miles with zero gas, it is projected the vehicles will then get about the same mileage. Possible, maybe. Likely?
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:07 am
I have no idea why anyone would want to build things here in California, but the bone heads at Tesla seem to think it’s a good idea. I think they’re out of their minds and are setting themselves up for failure.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:42 am
Well let me put it this way, Voltec is cool and all. And company’s like TATA have found out and made Voltec like systems. But the thing still remains GM will release this Volt thing and all the other motor company’s will follow, but GM will not see Volt’s flying out the dealerships. No, it will be watching over car company’s Volt like car’s fly out the dealerships.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 9:48 am
Tesla, I think, is the only one that made useless GM actually consider the Volt for real. Remember the “new” MINI? If you read the Austin Rover development story they said they were going to replace the BMC Mini for ages, but it never happened. Finally when the new MINI cam along they were ready to replace it for real, but due to Rover being stupid, BMW were the one at the end of the day who actually made it successful. Rover wanted this ugly horrible economy car and BMW wanted a racing one. BMW had to intervene and make the MINI a success. Same thing for GM, if it was not for Tesla and all the pressure from other car company’s. GM would still be NOT serious about the Volt, actually I think it would still be a concept today!
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 10:29 am
Sorry, Statik, but I voted against what you said accidentally. Just moved the mouse to fast and clicked on the wrong icon. Meant to give you a thumbs up vote. My bad.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 10:35 am
Whatever the “new” GM does, there are two things it must do and do them well. One, make the Volt the best car in the world and do it on time. Two, develop a hybrid system that will rival, equal or better than, the Prius. If GM only does the Volt and continues the mild two-mode hybrid system, they will lose in the public’s mind. And you better believe this is a battle for the public’s mind. If the public determines that the “new” GM is only interested in producing the Volt while continuing the production of so-called “gas guzzlers” (which we still need for them to do), then the public will not accept the “new” GM as being any different than the “old” GM. GM needs to get off the stick and get on the program. A hybrid Cruze could go a long way of reaching into the public’s mindset and reconfiguring how GM is viewed. A Voltec Orlando mini van could do well also. Or whatever the Orlando is described as.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 10:48 am
Scratch the part about the Matrix, lol. I had thought because Toyota had originally made a ’sister’ to the Vibe at NUMMI for export (Toyota Voltz…catchy name) they they just replaced it with the Matrix when the orignal was scrapped….that is not the case. (All the Matrix cvehicles are still built in Cambridge, Ontario)
They are just rolling many Corollas/Tacomas out of there. If they opened the Mississippi plant, they could built the Corolla and the Prius there…and the Matrix as well (if they wanted to).
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 11:53 am
Dan Petit writes, “While it [Prius] is extremely well built for what it does, it still “Costs too much-does too little”. What it does has just never been sufficiently impressive enough for me.”
Fascinating. You dismiss the Prius, with mid-size room, which absolutely clobbers any other mid-size car on fuel economy yet costs about the same as any other mid-size car ($22K), “Costs too much-does too little.”
What can you possibly think, then, of a $40K Volt? We don’t yet know what it actually does but we certainly know it transcends “Costs too much” to achieve “Costs w-a-a-y too much.”
Dan Petit also writes, “Although it is a good first step for Toyota to go electric, they apparently had not sufficient motivation to go further until GM had caught them by surprise and has jumped ahead of Toyota with an entirely new approach to go 40 miles on 85 cents of electricity.”
That’s the sort of statement that so richly deserves the scorn I referred to earlier. GM has, so far, jumped ahead of Toyota at nothing. Go to any GM showroom: no Volts. Go to any Toyota showroom: Priuses for sale, $22K.
Get back to me when the situation changes.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Dumbo’s point is well taken.
Toyota built the intial Prius in 2.5 years, with a minimum of press releases. “Moving fast on the Volt,” is still 4 years or 1.5 years longer than the Prius took.
Mitsubishi’s iMiev is in production.
Toyota has a PHEV program coming along (using the proven, existing vehicle) and may sell a half million of the Prius this year.
Honda has reentered the hybrid market.
Ford is working on products and may deliver a Focus EV, with Magna’s help.
There are other announcements for vehicles in development and on the way to production; I’d certainly bet that there will be at least one other xEV vehicle in production before Volt s/n 1 hits a dealer showroom.
GM leads the others in press releases but their existing gas-electric drivetrains do not sell in any significant quantities. The BAS vehicles have been withdrawn from the market and the Vue two-mode program has been cancelled (the many articles and posts here on GM-Volt about the two-mode Vue and the PHEV two-mode Vue now seem sort of silly).
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
From inside the doors there are no plans currently for the Prius to be built here.
Everything NUMMI currently hinges on the Collective Bargaining Agreement, which also expires in August. If the UAW play hard ball, I expect the doors to be closed.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I thought the initial argument was that HSD is inferior to VOLTEC. Checking my grammar here, but “inferior” mens “not as good as”.
While I am not an automotive engineer I do a thing or two about conversion losses. While there is a loss converting gasoline to electricity and a loss using electricity to power the wheels, this pales in comparison to the mechanical losses inherent in even the best transmissions.
In addtion, an ICE that is directly connected to the wheel speed (through a ratio) will rev up and down with the speed of the car. This is also a very inefficient way to use an ICE. A much bettter way is to deign the ICE to run within one or two speed bands and then use only those bands to produce power — you can only do that with a separation of engine speed from wheel speed … as designed in VOLTEC.
Remeber that Gen I VOLTEC will not be using purpose built engines, but are using off the shelf designs to reduce risk and cycle time. These engines will still be more efficient running only at few few set speeds than constantly revving up and down.
In short, VOLTEC provides the greatest opportunities to increase efficiency over the long haul. Toyota has about squeezed all that it can out of the HSD. And yet, VOLTEC Gen I should be more efficient than HSD in ICE operation.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Just last week I read an article in the local Oakland Trubune about Nummi.
Ah here it is:
http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/localnews/ci_12622202?source=rss
Apparently, the Vibe is (was? Will have been??) 24% of production there.
It will be interesting to see what happens next there.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 4:27 pm
GM definitely is going to need a mainstream hybrid system. Neither the two-mode or the belt-driven motor assist were selling well before the auto meltdown so they have until sales pick up and gas gets expensive to get it right (that will probably happen about the same time, whenever exactly that is).
However, I am not sure they should bother developing another system. I would suggest a voltec system with a small battery (and therefore the engine running most of the time) is going to work out better for them as that will help drive part volumes up and part costs down on their one “do-all” voltec system. Additionally, the voltec system is simpler with fewer parts than HSD, also another plus for GM. And it would be a good leveraging of all that investment into it so far.
(Quote)
June 22nd, 2009 at 7:26 pm
The drive train is one thing, implementation is another. I rented a Prius in Minneapolis last February, and NO ONE at the rental agency could figure out how to turn up the heater. I asked 4 people, by then I was late to my appointment. At least I finally dug up an owners manual. I nearly totaled the car trying to figure out the heater while driving on the freeway. Finally found heater controls buried in the menus. They set the default so that the touch screen always jumps back to the screen that displays mileage, making it hard to tweak the heater. Who cares about mileage when it is 10 degrees F and the heater controls are buried in touch screen menus designed by someone who flunked out of Microsoft? Only the AC controls are on the steering wheel, not the heat. Besides, it got worse mileage than my Saturn, probably because of the cold. Oh, of course, the “Synergy Drive” is worthless in winter because when you turn the heater on THE ENGINE ALWAYS RUNS! So they make it hard to turn on the heater. Geniuses.
The only people that believe the myth of Japanese car “superiority” are the ones dumb enough to read fashion magazines like Consumer Reports and believe that they have your interests in mind. As far as I can tell, going back to the 1970s Consumer Reports has always read like a payola operation. Maybe competent to rate refrigerators. Not Stereos, VCRs, and certainly not cars.
I have a friend in NJ who bought a Prius and had to pay out of pocket for a new engine block just after the warranty ran out. This from the #1 car maker in terms of recalls. Rumor is that engine failure is common.
As long as we are off topic, I have had two long trips approaching the 150 mile range in my Mini E. Of course it is feather foot driving, around 33 mph average speed. If this Volt web site is going to continue to be clogged with comments from shills for cruddy Japanese hybrids, maybe it is time to stop reading it. I come here for info about the future like the Volt , Tesla, and the Mini E, not parallel hybrids. They might make sense in heavy trucks that do stop and go driving.
(Quote)
June 23rd, 2009 at 1:20 am
Really the only thing that matters in both post is,
“The Prius goes 2 blocks”
Save yourself the headache of worrying about the battery and move higher up the hill. 2 blocks coasting down the hill without the electric or the ICE turned on and you just beat the gas mileage of the Prius.
The Prius was what it was, a good way to show that people would buy if offered the opportunity.
Now get on with the Plug-Ins so the people that can think for themselves will buy.
Just watch your miles for a while, most days I drive less than 40 miles, other days I drive less than 60. Weekend trips to hike or bike, well, I’ll take the benifit of that range extender and not need a second car thank you.
As far as that under 35 electric only for the Prius, I don’t drive thru parking lots all the way to work.
(Quote)
June 23rd, 2009 at 7:13 am
Reading through the posts above, I see that the usual incorrect information about Prius is now mixed with facts that are outdated.
The persistence of comparing vehicles with such drastic price differences is bad enough. But not understanding how the new model operates and what features have changed says a lot.
We are about to begin the second half of 2009. Between the bankruptcy outcome for GM and the sales count for Prius, it should become obvious how much the market is changing. The shift to low-profit affordable vehicles that don’t guzzle is already underway.
That puts traditional vehicles in a difficult spot. Some will really struggle to remain competitive. How does that position Volt, in a market so different from which it was originally conceived?
(Quote)
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:28 am
It was about 20% of the passenger line. There are two lines in the plant one for the Corolla/Vibe, another for the Tacoma. So much less than 20% total volume, but obviously a hit.
(Quote)
June 25th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
I think the Chevy Spark might be the next car to go into production at NUMMI. Just my opinion and thoughts… nothing to back it up, really…
(Quote)
June 26th, 2009 at 12:04 am
Yayyyy, (it’s four days later after Lyle’s topic post, and it’s so late at night no one else is awake, Except for maybe Michael Robinson, and) I am the 27th first, woooo hoooo!
Good reply Jim, really makes me consider the parameters of whereToyo’s HSD will have usefulness more carefully.
Gsned57 – I like the”Volt Hybrid Light” moniker. I mentioned this concept a few weeks ago but I’m not sure I mentioned or explained the small battery idea at all. Sounds promising though!
(Quote)