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GM VP: Optimistic, On-Time, and Under-Budget on the Chevy Volt
Jon Lauckner is GM’s VP of global program management. I recently had the chance to ask him some questions about the Volt’s development.
The initial Volts will use LG cells, but could GM use cells from any company in future cars?
Sure in theory that’s what we could do. Right now we’re really focused on start of production, end of next year is coming fast. And so we’re very focused on making sure we have the LG cell completely evaluated, tested, we understand it thoroughly.
People say that now that we’ve made this announcement with LG is there opportunities for other companies, and we don’t think this first installment of capacity for the initial production of the Volt is the end of the story for electrically-driven vehicles.
We think that lithium ion technology is going to be the technology not only for the Volt, but that its going to find itself in the hybrid vehicles as well. Lithium ion as a chemistry is going to move up in volume very dramatically over the next few years. By the way that not an opinion that’s only shared by us. If you go around to all the OEMs you’ll see that everybody is talking about lithium ion whether their talking about Volt-like vehicles, pure electrics, or even hybrids.
Are you surprised how many car companies now involved in electric car programs and do you think GM had a lot to do with starting all this?
I think its fair to say that we led the discussion on this particular topic, that’s for sure. It started 2 years ago at the 2007 Detroit Auto show where we unveiled the Volt and the initial reaction was to question whether we were sincere or whether it was some sort of PR stunt.
I think in the months and years since that point and time people have figured out that we’re very serious about this thing. Now that they’ve looked into this concept much more deeply you see all manner of manufacturers who are getting behind either the Volt concept in its entirety or certainly the idea of plug-ins generally. You see movement on the side of battery companies too. When we first introduced the Volt we said we had to go find the companies that had the capability to supply the battery pack that the Volt would need. Today you have announcements almost every month from a new company that wants to get into this space. Its been very interesting to see how this whole thing has evolved over the past couple of years.
Is there anything more at this point that could derail the Volt launch?
So far so good. All of us who have grown up in a technical community are understandably cautious about making big pronouncements when you are only part of the way there, because its always possible for something to pop up that wasn’t foreseen and so we’re naturally very cautious.
At the same time we need to be careful that our training by nature to be cautious isn’t somehow misinterpreted that we’re not optimistic and extremely pleased, because we are, more so that we’ve ever been. And were very pleased that were on time on target and under budget. You can’t ask for more than that when your running a program the size of the Volt and with the amount of technology that we’re designing developing and implementing largely on the fly.
133 Responses to “GM VP: Optimistic, On-Time, and Under-Budget on the Chevy Volt”
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June 18th, 2009 at 8:44 am
GM is going to change the world of motoring once again.
Tradition has a huge role to play in all this. No other car company except Ford has a tradition of leading the way with innovation, technology, and style.
GM has found its way again.
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June 18th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Very Good News! Go Volt!
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June 18th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Sounds like Li battery technology will be the standard for at least 10 years.
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June 18th, 2009 at 8:51 am
That should be spelled “op-thom-istic”
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June 18th, 2009 at 8:52 am
–”And were very pleased that were on time on target and under budget. You can’t ask for more than that when your running a program the size of the Volt and with the amount of technology that we’re designing developing and implementing largely on the fly.”
All good news, but I think that he skipped over the most important design aspect that they completely missed, cost. I’m fairly convinced that technically the engineering of the Volt is sound and I think that GM is making it as low cost as they can within their current design constraints, but they should have been able to better predict the final pricing, or if they did know all along it was going to be a $40k car, they shouldn’t have let Bob Lutz suggest that it would be under $30k in the beginning.
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June 18th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Nice post Lyle. I would not want to try to put a number on how many years Li battery technology will dominate the market Solo. I certainly hope that 10 years is not the case, because without more Li will not get us off of oil. Isn’t “under budget” cost-related Blakem?
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June 18th, 2009 at 8:59 am
I am Still on vacation .
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Under budget is something we are not accustomed to hearing!
Come now Jon, you didn’t have a couple pictures to share with the fan club?
—————————————————————
Slightly off topic, but a decent Volt article on MSN.
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/resources/article.aspx?cp-documentid=20438080
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:06 am
It’s “National Dump-the-Pump-Day”!
I’ll just bet Lyle is driving in circles around a local Shell station in his electric Mini…pointing at people…and laughing…!
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:10 am
It would be nice to see some real world test results. Miles per charge, miles per charge under full hvac and lighting load. I would like to see some questions about the hvac and how it works.
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Does under budget mean a tiny bit under $40K?
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Great get on the interview Lyle! Being on time and under budget at this point is most encouraging. Most problems show up early, so it’s a great sign that development is still on track. Can’t wait for the IVRs! They should be showing up shortly.
#8 MuddyRoverRob — Nice cite to the MSN article. Given he’s waxing poetic about the driving experience, seems like he had a test drive. The article is interesting because this is most positive piece I’ve seen from a “regular” car guy. Most are much more cautious. It’s a great read for Volt fans.
The only question I had was his citation of 28 km being the average commute in the US. I think he meant 28 miles but perhaps I’m wrong.
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Gas is about $3 a gallon again….big shock…
Pickens predicts $200 to $300 a barrel in 10 years.
No Car company will survive with ICE as a main propulsion system.
I still think it’s a joke that our bail out money is basically funding LG to build a Fcuking battery.
Better get natural gas in stations now and conversion kits ready for vehicles.
GM better have natural gas flex fuel ready or it’s lights out whenever OPEC makes it so.
Are you awake Fritz ?
I sure hope so.
Build the Volt faster !
Hey GM want to make some money…start building natural gas fueling stations. Without it your done. It’s just as important as the Volt. Watch and see.
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:28 am
#11 KUD – Unfortunately it’s probably more like a tiny bit under $48K.
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Why did Jon feel it was necessary to justify the choice of Li ion? It did not seem to fit in the discussion.
Wouldn’t it be refreshing if the auto companies would just come out and admit that they can’t use the proven NiMH batteries because an oil company (Chevron) owns the patent? Auto companies have no choice but to use Li ion.
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:36 am
If we drill for own oil, oil prices and gasoline prices would be much lower.
Pickens will say anything for people to invest in natural gas. why listen to Pickens when you won’t listen to oil/energy companies?
GM is losing buyers due to the government. Rose color glasses can’t prevent the truth from hitting home. Buy back the company! Get someone else to raise the money!
…Lithium ion as a chemistry is going to move up in volume very dramatically over the next few years…
- and therefore fill up the land fills with something near as bad as mercury. Going electric is sure ‘green’.
DonC #14. Yep. Oh the joy of a $48k compact car.
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:42 am
@ #11 KUD (and also #14 DonC)…
(quoting KUD):
>> Does under budget mean a tiny bit under $40K?
I suggest caution. It might mean developmental budgeting, not cost-per-unit to make the vehicle.
Regardless of which “kind” of budget he’s claiming is “under budget,” I personally don’t think it’ll impact how much they’ll decide to charge US for the Volt. IMO, that’ll be driven by demand analysis, bean counters, etc.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:00 am
One of the posters said that making a jab at future oil prices is akin to looking at tea leaves… . Good point! Here in Houston the real nature of oil prices are not really tied to competition and really not tied firmly to world supply which can be manipulated in ever changing stats. Wall Street has swarms of traders who hold NO oil but dabble in speculating UP and DOWN the price of oil and make fortunes doing so. And the refiners who can reduce the production of gasoline to create scarcity.
This has been posted many times I know.
I recall my father who worked in oil and gas as saying about some article that pointed out that we would be out of natural gas by 1980 or so. He laughed and laughed saying that there was allot of NG… and the same with oil but that speculators jack around the prices, sometimes good and sometimes bad for the industry. Today there is a glut of natural gas that we should not have because we were supposed to have run out 30 years ago! LOL!
Now if Chevron actually holds the keys to Li ion tech…? And then one must wonder as to the world supply of lithium and who controls the resource? If the oil industry was smart they might be thinking about snapping up of lithium areas… and Traders can start jacking around the price of lithium. Good Grief!
Regards!
Higgins and the Boys, Zeus and Apollo.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Let’s hope someone like EESTOR or another capacitor company can come up with the replacement for Li ion sooner then later. Hate to be beholden to anyone else for their Li mines. With the breakthroughs we keep hearing about from places like MIT and others, hopefully something better will come soon with a lower cost
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Isn’t NiMH, or whatever you call it, supposed to be better than this “Lithium Ion”. I think it’s the oil company’s are wanting this Lithium Ion because with NiMH they will be less chance of selling gas. Because NiMH has more life on a change and would perhaps take the car 100 miles or more.GM is backing down to the oil company’s again, by choosing Lithium Ion. Although I do like the Volt, and I do believe that the volt shook the auto industry, but GM will not be the people to lead the way. They will be the first but they will fall back and other’s will make better car’s as always. And that GM:Reinvent stuff is all talk, I was watching the conference, it seemed like all talk. And also the adverts are stupid they are advertising that for the past years GM has failed and now all of a sudden they will change! LOL we will believe that when we see it!
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Whether a project goes over or under time/budget depends mostly upon how screwy the original estimates were. It has little meaning beyond that, although some people think it has importance (those whose projects are under/under, quite naturally). Fritz is probably dimwitted enough to make a big deal out of it. And I’d say it’s rather misleading to claim the Volt is anything, since the original Volt is not being built.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:17 am
#12 DonC
I got the impression he had driven it too.
My one way commute is ~13km so I’m not far at all off his guess-timation of commuting distance. As for the overall average I’m not going to guess, I’ll just say this looks about right to me.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Great news from Lauckner – this is a spectacular story that will make a huge change in the way people view GM and the domestic auto industry. I can’t wait to hear the apologies from all the “vaporware” fanatics start rolling in as the launch date creeps closer and closer !
Re: Oil at $200 + a barrel – T.Boone Pickens is still a capitalist, and not averse to picking-and-choosing to further his own agenda. I see billions of barrels of CELLULOSIC ethanol capacity coming on stream by 2012/2013, which will make huge inroads into negating OPECS stranglehold on the western world. Throw in a dollop of battery tech breakthroughs, breakthroughs in harvesting solar energy and ever-increasing wind turbine capacity, and there is no doubt that we are on the brink of breaking the oil hammerlock the Arabs have had us in for the last 50 years! There is plenty of reason to be optimistic, and GM is leading the way ! No thanks to the Toyota cabal, who have badmouthed Li ion every step of the way.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:32 am
#17 Mike-o-Matic… I read this the same way, I felt he was talking about the developmental cost not the final production cost.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Statements like on time make be a little weary, the “Old GM” told obvious fiction which did nothing but reinforce a lack of credibility. To say independent evaluators were going to get to drive the Volt last year, then a year later only allow charge depleting mode operation is “behind schedule” anyway you want to slice it. Companies run by dictatorial elitists fail, so a government run business does not bode well.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:36 am
BRING IT!!
I’ve got the money put away. I’m ready to put down a deposit. What’s the problem?
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:37 am
An executive putting out an overy optimistic statement, regardless of current realities???
Stop the presses!!!
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Jabroni @ 15,
Here’s an incomplete list of electric and hybrid-electric vehicles built by major car companies that that use NiMH batteries:
1. Toyota RAV4 EV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rav4_ev
2. GM EV1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV1
3. Ford Ranger EV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger_EV
4. Toyota Prius: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
5. Ford Fusion Hybrid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fusion_Hybrid
6. Ford Escape Hybrid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Escape_Hybrid
7. Saturn Vue Hybrid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Vue#Green_Line_and_2-Mode_Hybrid_Models
8. Chevy Tahoe Hybrid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Tahoe_Hybrid
The list goes on, but I got bored.
Yes, most of full EVs are prototypes, captured test fleets, or expensive cult-cars, but that’s life in green-car world for ya!
-Luke
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:43 am
OK, fact-check time. I see a lot of misleading/wrong assertions in some of the above posts.
1. Chevron holds patents on certain NiMH chemistries and their applications/uses… not Lithium-ion.
2. In general, lithium-ion has higher energy density than NiMH cells, both by weight and volume.
3. Lithium is VERY recyclable. As a valuable, recyclable commodity, it is almost certain to be recycled, just as Pb-Acid automotive batteries are today. Large-format Li-ion cells/batteries are NOT going to all wind up in the landfill. That would be like flushing money down the toilet.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:46 am
I found this little FAQ on the interweb, I can’t make any vouch for the author and this site is definately biased toward small batteries but they are saying what I thought was the case comparing LI-ion and Nimh.
http://www.greenbatteries.com/libafa.html
The second point is the one I’m refering to.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Who is New GM’s CTO (Chief Technology Officer ) ? As new GM is a tech company they need to have some one responsible for technology and not another sales/Auditor.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:01 am
@ #30 MuddyRoverRob,
Thanks for the reference, Rob.
In that spirit, here’s a citation to back up item #1. Yeah, I know, Wikipedia… not a concrete source, but for what it’s worth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Adrian @ 16,
That’s technically true but, IMO, it’s a little naive. I think you’re missing the concept of “energy return on investment”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Return_On_Investment
The idea is that some oil is harder to get, so it takes more energy to bring it out of the ground. Visualize, if you will, a Texas gusher from the late 1940s — those guys just had to drill a hole, and they barely had to pump it. Next, visualize a deep-sea oil rig — you have to drill a hole most of a mile down, and then lift the oil up. Clearly, it takes an engine (probably burning oil) to do that. Still not so bad, though. Next, visualize the oil sands of Alberta Canada, where they have to move huge quantities of oily-dirt around, and then use huge quantities of steam to extract the oil. Then they have to put the dirt back where they got it.
In all of these cases, the oil is there — but it gets progressively more expensive to extract, in physical terms. It may be the case there there’s a lot of easy/cheap oil that is still unextracted, and the drilling for it will bring prices down… Even if that is the case, though, I fully expect that we will finish off (or have finished off) the cheap oil at some point during my lifetime.
I sure hope I’m wrong about this, but I’ll take an electric car either way. I’m a geek to the core, so buying an electric car that meets my household’s daily-driving needs would be satisfying for me, even if I turn out to be wrong about this whole oil thing.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Good news! Glad to hear they are on schedule and under-budget.
I found another GM presentation that is interesting.
http://www.narucmeetings.org/Presentations/Stanek%20PHEV_Nov08%20-%20final90.pdf
Apparently the Volt’s battery pack will have 288 cells, and the cells account for 70% of the cost of the battery pack.
The Volt has an optional navigation system with an onboard hard drive for maps and music storage.
Most everything else is std, up to 40 miles AER, 10 yr, 150,000 mile battery warranty, etc. However, under the battery pack it does state “Reasonable Cost”.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:11 am
I’m really looking forward to an on-time and under-budget Volt! Yay!
I’m really hoping it will make the current crop of green cars obsolete!
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Important milestone News .
Just so you know . BYD has been working on a plug-in extended range Electric car for over six years already . Don’t think GM is the one that came up with that idea , there were others BYD didnt originate it either .
Now BYD is going to start sales to the public fully a year ahead of GM with this technology and I might say with a nicer looking car that has already been crash tested and comfortably seats five in a larger (slightly) body .
The link ,
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=21227
SYNOPSIS: Sales of F3DM electric car to individual customers starts in September 2009.
Shanghai — BYD Auto said yesterday that it has decided to sell its F3DM electric car to individual customers starting September this year, Beijing Times reported. Before that time, the F3DM sedan is sold only to corporate customers. Private sales won’t start until then .
BYD Auto, a subsidiary of BYD Co, has started a nationwide marketing tour to promote its plug-in hybrid F3DM sedan. BYD’s F3DM (dual mode) compact sedan is a plug-in hybrid that uses the company’s lithium-ion batteries as well as power from charging stations or home power outlets.
$22,000 is a deal of a price here , but it is like a small fortune in China like a price for a Mercedes .
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Wait a GOT DAMN MINUTE!
WTF????
Q: Are you surprised how many car companies now involved in electric car programs and do you think GM had a lot to do with starting all this?
A: I think its fair to say that we led the discussion on this particular topic, that’s for sure.
Does anyone see anything wrong with this bullsh|t statement? GM was NOT a leader in Electric anything. Tesla (as much as I hate to say it) is. They started the revolution and GM just followed the lead. Piece of sh|t liar!
“on time on target and under budget.”
Target was $30K. They new back then how much the batt pack was and back then it cost more. I see no reason why cost jumped by $10K. If GM wrote off all the loans they were given and expended R&D funds used in the Volt development in the big BK, then there is no reason the Volt is $10K more.
I’m hearing a bunch of BS lies here.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:23 am
#33 Luke — The fact is that the US doesn’t have enough oil to impact the world price of oil. US production peaked around 1973. The estimates that some use for US offshore reserves are simply not believable — it’s hard to believe that after 30 years of looking for oil in the Gulf of Mexico there is double or triple the amount found during those years. Anyone who thinks the US can ever again be self sufficient in oil, absent a huge change in the mix of our energy sources, is living in La-La land.
To your point: Peak oil isn’t about running out of oil — you almost never run out of a commodity. As you say, it’s about running out of cheap oil. That bridge we’ve already crossed.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:24 am
#36 Keith…
Although I agree that this means the Volt will not be the first to hit the road, I have experienced Chinese manufacturing ‘quality’ firsthand. They cut corners without proving the ’solution’ first.
I am NOT against cost reducing a product, I’m am against doing it when it makes the quality suffer. The first cars might be OK, but partway through the run they WILL substitute an inferior part somewhere to save costs without documenting it.
It’s one thing when you are talking about a laptop, but quite another when it’s a car and life and limb is on the line.
Build a Quality Volt at an achivable price and they (I) will come.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am
CaptJack (#37)
Yes, Mr. Lutz did say that it was Tesla that inspired the Volt but I believe that Jon Lauckner was referring to the world’s MAJOR car makers of which, GM “led the discussion on this particular topic.”
NONE of the “majors” cared about EVs before GM first showed the Volt early in 2007.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Great. The Volt will get to retail consumers just in time to compete with a $31K four seat highway capable all electric Mitsubishi with two years of consumer real world experience for improvements.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009/06/17/afx6557840.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aenBN4HeNClQ
Tick tock, GM.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:39 am
When I heard of the Volt a few years ago I though it was definitely a stunt or at least only a concept that will never come to fruition. Well now here we are and the Volt is almost withing reach! Go Chevy….finally an American car maker looking towards the future.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:42 am
ok, I know that the Volt EREV doesn’t directly compete with pure EVs. I’m just trying to light a fire under GM’s @$$. It’s no longer in the future, Thomas. Highway capable real world electric vehicles are here today. Time for GM to jump on.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:48 am
@EVO 43
I think if it is considered electric drive only and is claimed to run on batteries only at any percentile, it’s competing.
For all intents and purposes, it’s an EV. Besides, everyone compares it to an EV anyway when they wine about range anxiety in an EV.
fyi, you are correct, the iMiev will have been proven as well as BYD and a few others and the Volt will be competing at $40K. But the iMiev is I think more than $40K. Can anyone confirm/correct me?
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:49 am
#37 CaptJackSparrow Says:
“on time on target and under budget.”
Target was $30K. They new back then how much the batt pack was and back then it cost more. I see no reason why cost jumped by $10K.
…………………………………………….
maybe is the extra battery warranty cost.. the bean counters got scared when they faced potential recalls due to battery failures or fires.. I say what the heck and go for it, how much worse can it get?
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:53 am
______________________________________________________
GM’s Lauckner Said in Lyle’s article:
“…I think its fair to say that we [GM] led the discussion on this particular topic, that’s for sure. It started 2 years ago at the 2007 Detroit Auto show where we unveiled the Volt and the initial reaction was to question whether we were sincere or whether it was some sort of PR stunt…”
———-
I believe GM’s executives are today divided as to if the Voltec Project represents a halo “PR stunt” or a serious power train migration project.
Only a very few GM executives (mostly Voltec Program executives) believe the Voltec power train will be migrated across a majority of GM’s portfolio line over the next 10 years. Most of GM’s executives believe the Voltec Project is a short term halo “PR Stunt”; they believe it will be several decades before electric cars go main stream (affordable to the common person).
I personally believe GM will end up not participating much in the Electric Car Revolution production volume wise because most of the senior GM executives don’t believe in the Voltec Program in terms of an opportunity for mass production. Other car makers than GM will be quicker to deliver Plug-In EREVS & BEVs that are affordable to the common person.
On a side note:
I’m intrigued by Lyle’s above photo of the Volt’s chassis.
Here is a clearer Volt chassis photo:
http://www.motorauthority.com/content/thumbs/2/0/2011_chevrolet_volt_battery-0112-630×360.jpg
Think of all the cool shell designs that could be created around a basic Voltec power train chassis. I wonder if GM will be allowing third parties to purchase the Voltec chassis. For example, the Voltec chassis could serve as the Fisker power train chassis. That type of chassis economy of scale would greatly get the cost down for both the Chevy Volt and Chevy Volt competitors…hmmmm.
______________________________________________________
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
BYD here we go again!! Isn’t that the “Be Your Death” car company. The Chinese don’t play on a level playing and like it that way, at the expence of there own people. They have a bad habit of overstating there miles per charge and don’t say mph driven to get it. There also seems to be conflict on how many units they have sold and whether or not the Chinese people are enbracing this new idea. I would rather drive an ICE the rest of my life than buy a BYD..
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
The proof is in the pudding, GM. Get the job done on time or ahead of the time. Come in late and everyone will be all over you. Put out a piece of crap and everyone will be all over you. Some people will be all over you no matter what you come out with. Don’t worry about the GM haters. They are going to hate you no matter what you do. There are certainly plenty of them around these days and you deserve everyone you created with the poor job you did in the 70’s through the last couple of years. You started turning things around about 10 years too late. You have one more chance. Don’t mess up, GM.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
CJS 44
I’m not talking about the current i-miev being shipped today. Please read the articles I provided. This is fresh news. They’ll pour whatever real world conumer useful data they’ve learned from the current i-miev in that $31K price point.
Manufacturers are starting to get a clue how to market EVs. How much range would you like to purchase with that? For most folks, it’ll be as much as they can afford and they’ll slightly adjust their driving behaviors from there. Massive pressures continue to get the cost of range to continue to fall, now that we have EV performance licked but good.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
#37 Cap’n Jack
#45 Herm
All cost (retail purchase price) numbers we have are at best SWAG’s (scientific wild a$$ed guesses) with a bunch of WAG’s thrown in for good measure!
Until the rubber hits the road there is no need to panic about cost.
It is a good thing that we have made the design team very aware of what we (the early adopters) are going to be willing to pay for a car (a cool car to be sure but it is what it is).
What we need here is a picture or two or a quick chat with someone on the team about the progress on the IV’s. Slow is OK but by showing progress we know that the mothballs are not being distributed. The natives are restless and getting snippy!
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
@Herm 45
There have never been any incidents of LiFePO4 cell chemistry exploding or catching fire. However, GM has designed the batt pack strong enough to withstand crash testing. I think anything that can happen to a cells will be well contained.
The extra battery has always been in the mix and never taken out of the equation. If anything, GM probably committed to a set price at a specific volume which will be much higher in cost than any good quality LiFePO4 cells in the next 4 months. I am going to also take a SWAG that they sole sourced to LG for the first 2 years at the set price/contract.
Currently you can get a 16.64KW set of 52 cells @ 3.2VDC 100AH for $110/cell = $5720, back one year it would’ve been twice that.
Cells: http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=34
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
@Brian 47
“The Chinese don’t play on a level playing and like it that way,”
Cue that Warren guy…..
lol
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
@MuddyRoverRob 50
Does anyone know anything more on the Generator portion of the genset?
Just curious on who makes it and other specs.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
This may just be me but shouldn’t these guys ditch the suits and ties? The outfits make them look like anachronisms. Lauckner is supposedly a wonderfully smart guy but he looks ridiculous standing in front of the powertrain in a suit. GM might want to start moving into the 21st century with a “every day is casual day” program.
CaptainJack – Get over the price. The $30K number was thrown out after a night of auto show partying. It was never real.
In fact I’m rather hoping that GM prices the car at $48K rather than $40K. At the end of the day price will be set by supply and demand. If mini really had “thousands” of people willing to pay $800/month for a two seat mule which could only be kept for a year, then GM will not have any problem selling a production run of 10K Volts at $48K.
This will not BTW negatively impact the price for you. At the end of the day you will have to pay market price. If MSRP is less than market price then the dealers will simply raise the price and pocket the money. I don’t have a bone to pick with car dealers, but their value added contribution is fairly minimal, and it would be better if GM had a good experience. We do own it after all.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Jabroni writes:
“Why did Jon feel it was necessary to justify the choice of Li ion? It did not seem to fit in the discussion. Wouldn’t it be refreshing if the auto companies would just come out and admit that they can’t use the proven NiMH batteries because an oil company (Chevron) owns the patent? Auto companies have no choice but to use Li ion.”
Wikipedia says that the first consumer NiMH battery appeared in 1989. I know that the conspiracy-minded like to believe that the evil oil companies have bought up any and all technology that could remotely be a threat to their world dominance, but given the fact that patents only last for 17 years, I think that Chevron owning battery patents is now a moot point.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
@ CaptJackSparrow # 51
The LG Cells in the Volt are not LiPO4, they are Lithium-Manganese Spinel, but the point is still valid.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
#53 Cap’n Jack
I really don’t know and I’m betting we’ll need to wait for the IV’s to appear before we get any sort of information. 53KW is a decent sized unit without a doubt, the spec’s will be interesting.
Thanks for the link, I’m weakening to the idea of a “roll my own” project (something for me to drive, the Missus gets one made by somebody who knows what they are doing! I think that might be GM)
That doubled up motor is talking to me. (I don’t even have a car for a project and am already hotrodding it!) I think I’d include a ‘range extender’ but it’ll likely be a portable generator mounted somewhere in the car.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
@ Luke #28
All the cars on you list are either pre-Chevron EV’s, from the EV1 era, or hybrids, which use a different type of NiMH battery.
A little recearch goes a long way.
From memory, Chevron controls the large format NiMH battery patents, and has ever since roughly the same time the EV1 program was so notoriously scrapped, which are required for producing EV batteries. Since the ‘death’ of the EV1, and the purchase of GM’s interest in Ovonix through thier purchase of Texaco, large format NiMH batteries have been very hard to come by.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
@DonC 54
“CaptainJack – Get over the price. The $30K number was thrown out after a night of auto show partying. It was never real. ”
Must have been one he||ofa party!!!
Seemed to have gone week after week and month of telling the media the $30K cost. At least we know the tax $$$ spent was to help cover that or BK write off.
I know, I know get over it…..
I’ll go have a ber at lunch for my liquid diet.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
#59 Cap’n Jack
On the plus side maybe the EREV pickup will show up for gen 2.
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
TO: # 39
MuddyRoverRob,
Hi , Yea so have I , I am a professor there now and I get to ride in Chinese cars several times a week . Let me tell you that first of all I agree with you about some price cutting moves being taken in manufacturing , but when it comes to their cars they are just as concerned about safety as anybody else . They love their families just as much as we do and dont want to take any chances with their lives either . I ride in Buicks , Audis , VW and others .
Sure there is junk made that we wouldn’t even think of buying or getting into to go anywhere but you will never see the Chinese government issue an export permit for them because they dont want to get a bad reputation .
I also am involved with International trade and nothing is exported unless it is approved in the prototype stage of development by the buyer first .
This process takes months and sending of samples to the clients before the actual production begins .
Don’t worry we wont be getting any cars from China until they have been thoroughly tested here (North America) first . Even at that I think it will be pretty hard for anybody in North America to buy a BYD DM Volt type of car even if you had the cash $22,000 because the Chinese are a very proud race loyal peoples and they probably will market these cars in Vancouver , Toronto and San Francisco first in the Chinese communities .You might be able to buy one from the original owner for a price of $5,000 over the original cost if you are nice and very polite . (smile)
Aside from the little jab at humor I think it would be in the best interest of our government to pay GM Chrysler and Ford the actual cost of the purchase price of the batteries since the taxpayers are paying for the battery assembly factories to be built . Get the show on the road and put the Volt and others in the hands of thousands of people every month .
Just think what a move like that would do for employment in North America
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
@MuddyRoverRob 57
I love the Voltec but can’t afford it. So I myself am looking into a DIY pickup truck. I will be following in design from the LionEV group: http://www.lionev.com/DIY_Ranger.html
Dude, follow through the process they show online and you’ll get inspired to do it. I have all my parts picked out. Cost for the parts is 4K batt pack is ~2.7K (I’m designing my own BMS per sub pack).
Now the genset for the Volt is of my interest because I wnat to know who the OEM is for the generator head. 53KW is a pretty big chunk of juice and I know they overspec’d it and it can probably peak at ~70KW. I have other designs for a range extender that is derrived from FEV’s release but I need a good generator head and from someone who does not sell ONLY to OEM’s.
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
“Volt but I believe that Jon Lauckner was referring to the world’s MAJOR car makers of which, GM “led the discussion on this particular topic.”
Not to split hairs, but I wouldn’t exactly call GM a MAJOR company anymore. Its now a penny stock on the OTC exchange with a market cap in the 700 million range.
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
#37 CapnJack
Whoa! Take it easy….. The guy is just doing his job with these optimistic announcements. Here in SoCal, we call these guys “SpokeHoles”. He may not be factually correct, but is trying to present the “New GM” in the best light possible. Just like that Minister of Information who worked for Saddam in the Iraq War. You remember him, “Bagdad Bob”. He kept saying the Americans were not in downtown Bagdad when the news cameras showed them right over his shoulder. Same thing here. Give the guy a break.
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
#61 Keith
What it comes down to is ‘trust’.
Even with everything that has happened I STILL trust GM more than I could possibly trust anything coming out of China. Take your pick, lead paint on baby toys, polution so bad they had to stop all maunfacturing during the Olympics so visitors wouldn’t die, etc.
If someone GAVE me a BYD I would sell it and then buy a Volt. I certainly wouldn’t transport anyone I cared about in what can only be a deathtrap.
Selling these things (the BYD erev) in The rest of the world will have one of two possible outcomes. Either people will like the concept but want a well made car and will get a Volt or they will decide that All EREV’s are crap and tell everyone they know this fact.
It’s a dangerous game.
/Disclosure; Manufacturing is no longer performed here by the company I used to work for, it was moved to China. My first hand pain of dealing with terrible ever changing quality comes from there. That company is now in bankrupsy due to shortsighted management.. (Large Canadian company run by an American, starts with “N”)
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
The Saudi Arabia of Lithium is…The United States.
Most of the world’s Lithium was mined in the US, until some very rich brines containing Lithium were found in Chile and Peru. These brines are being mined today, and the old US Lithium mines were shut-in, until needed. Lithium is about 6% of the Earth’s crust. Mining less than 10% of the known Lithium mines would provide all the Lithium needed to supply every car in the World enough Lithium to be powered with lithium-Ion batteries. Lithium can never be a critically, short material.
Any scientist or engineer will point out that Lithium-Ion chemistry is a lighter and more energy-holding, battery chemistry, than NI-Mh. NiMh is yesterday’s technology, just as much as buggy whips are. Chevron is going to rue the day it invested in that buggy whip-like company.
For the stupid fool that keeps touting BYD, please note that BYD produced less than a 100 battery vehicles before a rash of lawsuits ensued. Their BYD batteries were not thermally stable, and resulted in lots of thermal run-away fires.
The BYD electric car meets none of the US or any advanced western safety regulations. Auto reviewers have said the quality of the BYD offering is truly Third World abysmal; and requires lots of changes before being acceptable anywhere outside, or apparently even inside, of China.
The Berkshire-Hathaway investor. Mr. Warren Buffet, is famous for his fine investment returns; but everyone forgets that he prided himself on never investing in technology companies. He said he refused to do so, because he didn’t understand it.
He broke his rule, to invest in a technology company, half a World away, with primitive technology; and primitive accounting methods, BYD. It will be interesting to see if he loses his (Hathaway) shirt because of this large deviation from his investing style.
Finally, it is good to hear that the Volt program is meeting time and budget goals.
With kudos to the originator
The ICE age is over.
The VOLTage has begun.
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
IMHO, BYD is no threat in the US. It will be 2 years for it to me modified to pass NA Crash standards. and whatever else is required. However, Hummer and Raser have a shoe in. Besides, I think the buffet dude invested in the Co because of the batteries not the car. Or I could be wrong.
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
MuddyRoverRob
N=Nortel?
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
#68.. WarrenPeace ya…
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
It’s time for the United States to make a stand to the rest of the world before its too late. I say the fearless Obama should issue a worldwide ultimatum immediately, and it goes something like this:
“Let me make this perfectly clear: To the nations of our world, turn over all your Lithium immediately, or else we will attack you. You are either with us or against us. Your decision must be made and transmitted to us no later than July 4, 2009. For those nations that fail to respond we will confront you with brute overwhelming force in a timely manner and I would strongly advise your country’s leadership to evacuate your population as soon as possible for their own safety. We are on a mission from god, do not make a grave mistake and stand in our way.”
BTW, there is absolutely nothing wrong with start a war over a natural resource. It has been done repeatedly throughout world history and will be done again. Why not seize the opportunity while we are still the world’s only superpower.
Go For It !!
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
#62 Cap’n Jack
That’s definately an interesting site, I’m thinking more along the lines of an electric Porsche but the end result is much the same!
#66 stas peterson
One of the things we have going here is a good open discussion. Absolutely dis-agree if you must and do post your thoughts.
Just PLEASE do not resort to name calling, it only makes you look bad and weakens our group dynamic.
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June 18th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I believe the Koreans and Chinese are the worldwide leaders in battery research and production. This will not change anytime soon. The U.S. best chance to change this equation is via our education system and not via government run corporations. If one of our University research programs happens to discover a “game changing” battery technology that could leap frog us over the Asians. It will take time as college research moves deliberately and slowly. If Lithium costs remain high a cheaper alternative battery will be discovered. After all, necessity is the mother of invention.
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June 18th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
re #51 CaptJackSparrow interesting about the price of Li batteries.
Now we are beginning to get some competition with Li cells.
I did a quick search for solar lead acid battery prices, and without really hunting for low prices I could find 16KWh for about $3800. So price the gap between Li price and Pb chemistry batteries is getting smaller too. To the point that using Pb battery in an EV is looking very dated.
One caution about specification comparisons is that the Ah rate (KWh = Voltage x Ah ) is that quoted battery Ah values vary significantly by discharge rate. At least that’s true for Pb chemistry, unsure about Li chemistry. It is possible to get a higher Ah value by lowering the discharge rate.
In the link that you gave to evcomponents.com the spec sheet is available for the batteries, and I noted that the “standard discharge rate” is 0.3CA, which would mean that the battery Ah capacity is rated based on an over 3 hour 20 min discharge rate. The Volt’s discharge rate, assuming 40 mph average (little city then highway) is 50% (8KWh) in 1 hour. Thus I think that the Volt’s battery will operate at 2 hour discharge rate or 0.5CA. This is not a huge difference, but the assumed discharge rate maybe makes the Ah rating for the batteries on evcomponents.com a little optimistic, and also makes the number of cycles optimistic.
In any case the point is still well made, it looks like EV type Li chemistry cells have dropped in price significantly since the Volt concept was born. Maybe this is partly because of the looming move to battery powering of vehicles that the Volt has helped to make. Now think about what prices for cells will be like in 2012 for Volt Gen 2 !! The factories will already be built for Volt Gen 1, and so cell contracts can maybe be signed later for Gen 2 which will mean lower prices.
Indeed maybe GM can look at the rate at which cell prices are falling in working out the likely cost of replacing any defective batteries and thus the margin needed in the sale price of the Volt.
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June 18th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
@ Reginald R Witworth IV # 72
Funny thing, the University of Waterloo, here in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, just announced a major breakthrough in battery chemistry.
http://www.gizmag.com/next-generation-battey-lithium-sulphur/11926/
Education is the key to advances in technology. Education is a country’s future.
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June 18th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
#67 Ah..my Captain
.. but BYD does have a shoe in with VW. It’s going to start getting really interesting here in NA very soon..
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
All the talk of Lithium needs is probably going to be irrelevent in another 5 years. Lithium is an early battery technology, but research is already looking past it with other materials. I wouldn’t be suprised to see some new battery type come along with 100 fold increase in capacity to make Li-Ions look unusable. It’s still very early in the game.
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Thanks Lyle for the update. This is a very encouraging news.
I’m sure GM is already working on the second car to get this Voltec powertrain.
GO Volt GO!
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
@Mark Bartosik 73
The .3C discharge is the Ideal operating charge/discharge. The the one’s I linked are used by most DIY’rs on their EV conversion. Nobody operates that low and everyone stays within the 1C-3C rate. I can alomost guarantee that the Volts cells will have the same Ideal specs. Personally, I havn’t seen any specs that don’t say .3C is not the recomended.
Batt prices are going down. Hopefully by next yer a 16KW pack will only cost $2300.00
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Reginald R Witworth IV Says:
June 18th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I believe the Koreans and Chinese are the worldwide leaders in battery research and production. This will not change anytime soon. The U.S. best chance to change this equation is via our education system and not via government run corporations. If one of our University research programs happens to discover a “game changing” battery technology that could leap frog us over the Asians. It will take time as college research moves deliberately and slowly. If Lithium costs remain high a cheaper alternative battery will be discovered. After all, necessity is the mother of invention.
————
Actually, an American company – ECD / Energy Conversion Devices – has been heavy into battery research and development since the early 80’s. They have many NiMH patents, and license their technology to companies all over the world. I believe they are affiliated with the Cobasys joint venture, which competed with LG for the Volt business. They are also heavy into solar cell technology.
They are a first class outfit, based in Michigan, and I would look to hear more from them in the future.
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
On Target ?
Looks like “nicely below $30,000” target has been abandoned.
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
@kgurnsey 56
“The LG Cells in the Volt are not LiPO4, they are Lithium-Manganese Spinel, but the point is still valid.”
True. They coat the cathode with it for better thermal impedence, abuse and longevity. But electrically it’s 99% the same as the commodity LiFePO4 cells. Makes you wonder why they went Manganese when inherently it has a shorter cycle life than LiFePO4. May be power but GM has never released any specs for the batt pack but that its 400VDC and 40AH 16KW.
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
#73 Mark Bartosik
This is exactly what I believe will make my Volt price at a point where it can land in a lot of garages!
#74 kgurnsey
This technology or other promising nuggets give me great faith it will happen sooner rather than later.
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
@john1701a 80
hehehe…..
I touched on that already and I was told to “Get over it…”. I guess it’s expected to turn a blind eye on something they failed to achieve their goal on just because it’s GM…..NOT!!!!
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June 18th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
#80 john1701a
It’s pretty clear he is refering to the product development budget which is different than the retail cost.
Perhaps you don’t work in the manufacturing sector and hence do not realize that sweating the details takes both time and money. Make no mistake Toyota’s development cycle will not be so different.
There is no way the actual retail price has been calulated at this point. I’m CERTAIN they know the cost range where it will land, the dropping price of LI cells can only be good for the consumer.
That’s us!
However I do think a $30k usd price point for gen 1 is unlikely.
For gen 2 it is very possible though.
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
I still think they should sell a BEV version with 60 AER at $30K. That would cover goons like me for only commuting. That’s three days round trip on a single charge. Two charges a week and i’m good!!!
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
#83 Cap’n Jack
Perhaps I said it poorly, all I meant is that until they hit the showroom we will be speculating on the retail price.
I’m hopeful with the dropping LI cell prices that the pack will be cheaper and that the car comes in less expensive than where we currently think it will end up.
Of course there is no real evidence supporting either result.
So I’m trying to get over it too.
/I think it’s time to go get a beer!
Have a nice evening all.
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
@MuddyRoverRob 86
I’m hoping the same but until then I’m buying the pieces for my EV DIY Pickup…….lol.
No worries matey!
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
It’s pretty clear he is refering to the product development budget which is different than the retail cost.
________________________
It was price the consumer would pay.
Spinning that to mean something else will be really hard. Some of us kept good notes of when those comments were originally made.
Whatever the case, we still don’t have clear business plans. How will Volt fit (volume & price) into the product-line?
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
#83 CaptJackSparrow says “I touched on that already and I was told to “Get over it…”.”
That was meant in the nicest possible way. Seriously.
On the price, I don’t remember anyone from GM suggesting an MSRP of $30K, at least not in the last year or so. Perhaps you’re remembering a price “after incentives.”
But my point would be that it doesn’t really matter what the MSRP is. Dealers will sell at the market price. Given the limited supply and the $7.5K rebate, there is no way that a dealer is going to sell a Volt for $30K.
#88 john1710a — Can you give us a few cites to where someone from GM gave an MSRP of $30K? Autobloggreen said this more than a year ago, in February of 2008: “When the Chevy Volt was first announced, a price tag of $30,000 was bandied about. Then, more recently, we heard that $40,000 was a possibility.”
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
#70 Beemer
Now if the previous administration’s VP and his neocon buddies had anything to say about it, that might just be the course of action…
Lyle – newsy update. Thanks. Good to hear the project is moving along well. Expect before long some bits should start comingout about experiences with the production-intent test fleet…
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Autobloggreen said this about the Volt price over a year ago, in February of 2008: “When the Chevy Volt was first announced, a price tag of $30,000 was bandied about. Then, more recently, we heard that $40,000 was a possibility.”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/12/chevy-volt-price-watch-35-000/
This is basically what I remember. The first price target was $30K and then, after the party hangover ended and reality set in, the price started to go up and $40K was cited as a possibility.
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
RE #78 CaptJackSparrow
Cap Jack – I had a question for you, but in writing this post short of answered it myself. Since I’ve typed it here it is anyway…..
If as you say everyone operates in 1C to .3C range but .3C is the usual ideal rate, and the cells are typically rated for the ideal rate, then how much would you expect the max number of cycles to be affected by running closer to 1C than .3C and how much is the energy storage affected by running closer to 1C than .3C.
What I am really wondering is whether the Volt’s cells have to be more tolerant in these parameters (and thus expensive) than the DIY cells that you link to. Or whether you think that these are likely a good comparison with Volt’s cells.
Yes, with more thought I suspect that the Volt’s cells are likely reasonably comparable, but that the Volt gains more lifetime cycles on average by treating the cells very nicely with respect to temperature, charge rate, and only using roughly 50% SOC. That’s where the cost of the battery comes from (it’s not just a collection of cells). Add an ultra cap for generation 2, and maybe even more cycles can be squeezed out, or a wider SOC used with a smaller pack.
I also wonder if there is an economic cycle that may have pushed the price of cells lower recently. That could be that over the last two years capacity for Li cells has been add (and still is being added) in anticipation of the coming revolution, but currently with the economic downturn the spot price for cells is low because there is no huge industrial scale use yet. Rather like has happened with solar cell prices. ??
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
So here is an interview that Lutz did with Wired News in January 2008 (that’s a year and a half ago). It seems pretty clear what the deal is. Basically if you want the Volt in 2010 then it’s going to be closer to $40K than to $30K:
WN: What’s the target market for the car? Will it be a high-end car, a mid-range car?
Lutz: I’ve always said I’d like to be able to sell it at around $30,000. The way things look now, it doesn’t look like that’s going to be possible. It looks like it’s going to be more.
WN: How much more?
Lutz: I don’t know. You’d like to have it at about $30,000 for the customer, but what I’m hearing from the team is we’re not going to get there. They say we might get there on the second generation, and they say if they had a lot more time they might be able to cost-optimize it. I don’t want to wait for cost optimization. I’d rather come out in 2010, and if it costs closer to 40 than 30, well, that’s too bad.
#67 CaptJackSparrow – Yes, you’re right that Buffet invested in the battery manufacturing not the car. The quote was something like “a lot of people can make a nice car but not many can make a battery”. Something like that.
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June 18th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
#66 stat peterson wrote:
“note that BYD produced less than a 100 battery vehicles before a rash of lawsuits ensued. Their BYD batteries were not thermally stable, and resulted in lots of thermal run-away fires”
Please post a link for those statements. All I’ve been able to find is:
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinajournal/2009/03/23/safer-battery-technology-gives-china-an-edge-in-developing-affordable-electric-cars/
which implies the opposite.
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June 18th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
When will we see a Voltec Silverado?
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June 18th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
I hope Jon Lauckner’s right and there aren’t any last minute problems with the Volt’s design. Recently Autoline Detroit published a Volt mule test drive report and suggested the Volt may only get 30 MPG, instead of 50 MPG, when being powered by the range extender. Is it 30 or 50 MPG?
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/viewermail/
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June 18th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
@Mark Bartosik 90
“If as you say everyone operates in 1C to .3C range but .3C is the usual ideal rate,”
I may have mistyped. I meant operate from 1C to 3C where mfgr ideal spec is .3c. So in a batt pack of 100AH the max most of the DC motors used for DIY’rs reach 300A and some 400A and the dragsters 500A (muliple parallel cells) which means the cells themselves will bounce around the 3C-4C range, depending on how you are accelerating.
“What I am really wondering is whether the Volt’s cells have to be more tolerant in these parameters (and thus expensive) than the DIY cells that you link to. Or whether you think that these are likely a good comparison with Volt’s cells.”
The cells I link to are only the closest comparison. The magnese coating is used I think for high C rate. If you look at the specs on the Volt, it can deliver 150HP when needed on electric mode. 150HP * .7456 = 111.84KW, where .7456 is the Kwatt equvalent of 1HP.
So if we have 111.84KW / 400VDC = 279.6A. That given, 279.6A / 40A (Rated AH of the batt pack) gives 6.99C or 7C. This rate is relatively high but the are some that are rated at 12C and 15C. This is where the cost of the batt pack comes from. There is an exponential cost from 4C to 7C….lol
This data is not published but is derrived from basic priciples of the Power wheel math formula in electronics.
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June 18th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
@@Mark Bartosik 90
Check out diyelectriccar.com. Most people there (DIYrs) use these cell types. They have used them for a few years not and report great results from them. These aren’t the kind of users that feather foot their drive either. Dimitri, major and many other as well as the guys from EV components all post there, myself included but not as tha Capt. So far there aren’t any bad reslults that I know of where the entire pack is toast.
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June 18th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
@srschrier 94
This is still up in the air. How they will test it also is still in question. Should it be tested with the battery plugged in then take a rating of MPG or should the battery be disconnected for a 100% Genset operation?
IMHO, it should be tested with the battery DISCONNECTED. Any other method is a test with “Battery Assist” and that’s not a true Genset method of metrics for an EV.
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
#97
CaptJackSparrow
@srschrier 94
This is still up in the air. How they will test it also is still in question. Should it be tested with the battery plugged in then take a rating of MPG or should the battery be disconnected for a 100% Genset operation?
IMHO, it should be tested with the battery DISCONNECTED. Any other method is a test with “Battery Assist” and that’s not a true Genset method of metrics for an EV
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Do you mean “Any other method is a test with “Battery Assist” and that’s not a true Genset method of metrics for an ICE w/genset”?
Testing that way means no regen right?
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
#33 Luke:
You won’t be proven wrong.
#47 Brian:
Second the motion.
#89 StevePA:
Yeah, it’s worked out so well in Iraq.
Actually, it put me in the mind of Ronald Regan:
“We begin bombing in 5 minutes.”
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
OK, one more to make it 100 comments. Or:
“100!”
“One hundreth!”?
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
Where’s Rashiid Amul, BTW?
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
@jeffhre 98
“Testing that way means no regen right?”
Hmmm….
That’s a good point. I’m gonna have to rethink this now.
Good catch!
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
The biggest loser is Big Oil…karma is taking hold!
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June 18th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Reginald R Witworth IV #72
“I believe the Koreans and Chinese are the worldwide leaders in battery research and production. This will not change anytime soon. The U.S. best chance to change this equation is via our education system and not via government run corporations. If one of our University research programs happens to discover a “game changing” battery technology that could leap frog us over the Asians. It will take time as college research moves deliberately and slowly. If Lithium costs remain high a cheaper alternative battery will be discovered. After all, necessity is the mother of invention.”
——————————————————
Texas and MIT research has spun off a couple of LiFe battery companies, one of them being A123 who ran second to LG for the Volt battery contract. A123 had the misfortune of following the larger sheep over the cliff and contracted production in China and voila, now a Chinese company is making a very similar battery. There are Korean and Japanese companies that use Chinese prodcution when price forces them into it but first generation and new tech stays in their home production plants for a reason. US companies have been slow on the uptake in this area.
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June 18th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
#102
Frank D Says:
June 18th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
The biggest loser is Big Oil…karma is taking hold!
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I’m thinking big oil is going to be as busy as they can handle for years to come. Looks like if the industry financing is restructured and Governments take a larger interest in subsidizing development they still won’t be able to handle demands internationally.
We’d better get electrified before prices reflect possible scarcities when energy prices go up. Worst recession in 80 years and oil has gone up for almost two months straight!
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June 18th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
What about the IVs (integration vehicles)? How are they coming along? How do they compare to the mule? Was the black Volt recently photographed one of the integration vehicles?
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
It looks like we are “all systems GO” here in June 2009. Everything’s looking good.
I’m looking forward to seeing if John Lauckner will have the production intent Volt on the road for us to see on July 4th like he planned. Hopefully, Lyle and some other automotive journalists will get to road test it and write about their impressions in the next few months. Lyle ought to be one of the first people to drive the production intent Volt that’s for sure.
Way to go Volt design team! I bet those guys will go down in automotive history as true pioneers like the engineers who worked on the Apollo moon mission in the 60s.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Big Oil? You are so stupid. They could care less what they sell as long as thye make a profit for themselves and the shareholders. Good grief, you anti-oil guys are the most ignorant fascist-socialistic-statist lot… almost not worth replying to but I can’t help myself. Grow up and learn something on how business works.
On a different note:
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/eu-hydrogen-highway.htm
Spend government money on this.
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June 18th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
#107
Adrian
Big Oil? You are so stupid. They could care less what they sell as long as thye make a profit for themselves and the shareholders. Good grief, you anti-oil guys are the most ignorant fascist-socialistic-statist lot… almost not worth replying to but I can’t help myself. Grow up and learn something on how business works.
On a different note:
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/eu-hydrogen-highway.htm
Spend government money on this
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Is that for #102 or #104
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
I knew there would be issues with the BYD China car. Notice the test drive video? The representative (in passenger seat) is making hand gestures related to the shifter. It looks like he’s saying, “Easy, don’t break it”.
My quality alert alarm went off when I first saw the video months ago.
=D~
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Well, since the Volt is coming in under budget, take that left-over budgeted money and spend it on advertising for the Volt. Advertisements for the Volt are practically nonexistent, which is a bad sign.
When GM was starting it’s Saturn line of vehicles, the advertising was substantial; I even remember the slogan that was out long before there were any models available in the showroom: “Saturn, a different kind of car. Saturn, a different kind of car company.”
I find it troublesome and worrying that we’re 500 days from the release of the Volt and still the advertising is virtually nonexistent.
If GM is truly wholehearted about the Volt, truly behind it, then why are’nt they spending money on advertising to reflect this?
Only GM ads I’m seeing are for the Camaro
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
My headline would read:
Lauckner tries to subtly distance himself from volt, makes false claims in the process.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Advertisements can become a liability.
They set up expectations.
If you are specific, people will hold you to those details. If you are vague, people will wonder what you are hiding.
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June 19th, 2009 at 4:34 am
To #110
Why should GM waste money on advertising the volt? There are a number of reason NOT to advertise the Volt right now.
1. It isn’t going to be produced in huge numbers to start. So what good does it do GM to have people wanting a car that is already sold out.
2. I case you haven’t been paying attention to the news lately, GM is in a financial tight spot right now. Getting people all hyped up about a car that won’t be out for almost two years will potentially hurt the companies sales of other cars right now.
So there is little immediate financial payback.
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June 19th, 2009 at 5:30 am
#112 john1701a & # 113 omegaman66
The two of you are idiots.
Do you both really believe that a Chevy Volt advertising campaign is a bad idea?
Obviously, the two of you have absolutely no experience in business whatsoever.
Because if you did, you would realize that when your competition advertises and you don’t, he has the advantage.
Unless GM advertises heavily for the Volt, like they did for their Saturn brand, the Volt will be a flop.
Of course, this might be part of the plan.
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June 19th, 2009 at 8:28 am
Obviously, the two of you have absolutely no experience in business whatsoever. Because if you did, you would realize that when your competition advertises…
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Quite the opposite and you’re focusing on the wrong thing.
My 9 years of hybrid experience clearly reveals that the OWNER endorsement grossly outweighs advertisements by the automaker.
After all, look how much more effective this blogging site is than then GM promotion for Volt.
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June 19th, 2009 at 8:29 am
#116
You are the idiot. The car isn’t going to be out for a long time. GM has slashed its advertising budget and what is advertising is ads designed to promote what vehicle it is trying to sale but can’t. I am not against advertising but it most be done so that there is a payback. Advertising for the volt can wait until next year.
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June 19th, 2009 at 9:13 am
“Recently Autoline Detroit published a Volt mule test drive report and suggested the Volt may only get 30 MPG, instead of 50 MPG, when being powered by the range extender. Is it 30 or 50 MPG?”
The Volt mode of operation where the ICE operates is called “charge sustaining mode.” We do not know much about this mode of operation yet, but we hope Lyle gets to evaluate this mode sooner rather than later.
Common sense will tell you if the Volt is going slow, say an average speed of 21 MPH, then it will get better MPG. So it might get close to 50 MPG. On the other hand, if the Volt is climbing up a 6% grade at freeway speed, the MPG might be closer to 30 MPG. Since a similar sized vehicle (the Prius) can get better than 50 with a 1.8 L engine, there is no reason why the Volt could not get close to 50 MPG under optimum conditions.
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June 19th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Since a similar sized vehicle (the Prius) can get better than 50 with a 1.8 L engine, there is no reason why the Volt could not get close to 50 MPG under optimum conditions.
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GM’s own material for Two-Mode contradicts that claim.
It states the conversion to electricity is less efficient than a direct mechanical path. Volt claims the other extreme. So… what’s the take from those here?
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June 19th, 2009 at 10:39 am
#120 John1701a
I take it as the Volts system is dissimilar to the two mode system and until we see an actual car operating we will not know the efficiency achived.
It’s tough, we have several viewpoints on this site ranging from “yay GM” to “die GM”. In the absence of hard data there are plenty of emotional statements that have been made so many times that they appear as fact. The truth is we don’t know the answer.
I know I sound like a broken record now, some information/leaked picture of th IV’s would help things a whole lot.
/Thanks again ‘Lectric Lyle
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June 19th, 2009 at 10:43 am
GM gives me hope for their future as a leader in the auto industry.
Being on budget is important because of GMs recent history of burning through cash stockpiles.
I believe GM is being too cautious by taking a wait and see attitude on serial hybrid tech. If I were running GM I would be a LOT more aggressive in expanding the Voltec platform. But maybe GM is seeing some cautionary signs in the testing or development that they’re not sharing with us. Whatever the issues they are weeding their way through in the near term I believe strongly that Voltec has the potential to put GM in the leadership position again in the auto industry. Sometimes you have to reach out and grab the brass ring. It is there for the taking GM.
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June 19th, 2009 at 11:00 am
#122 CS Guy
I agree with you and since they have said 3 voltec models are in the works it seems GM does to as certain extent as well.
The danger is of course that they can’t afford to be wrong.
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June 19th, 2009 at 11:20 am
I have a question for the group in general but the Cap’n in particular.
Yes the truck price is Canadian dollars and the kit is us dollars but since this just an exercise gimme a break, OK?
A new Colorado pickup costs $23505 ‘base’ in Canada.
http://www.gm.ca/gm/english/vehicles/chevrolet/colorado/overview
Yes the following ‘kit’ is for a Ranger but since it’s a GM focused site I used the Colorado pickup price.
As refered to by the Cap’n in #62
http://www.lionev.com/Ranger_conversion_kits.html
$22245, assuming a $10k battery pack (in the high middle of the pack price range quoted) and $2000 for the charger. I took the cabling price as quoted on the site although it would obviously vary form that using the different truck platform.
That totals $45750.
From my viewpoint The Volts price point is starting to make some sence. This is not intended to be a smack down, I was curious and added it up.
Am I missing something?
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June 19th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
#122 CS Guy
GM gives me hope for their future as a leader in the auto industry.
Being on budget is important because of GMs recent history of burning through cash stockpiles.
I believe GM is being too cautious by taking a wait and see attitude on serial hybrid tech
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GM said they will lose money on each Generation I. If thats true, the more they spread around and build of gen I the more they lose. Maybe gen II and gen III Voltec will be the platforms that can be expanded at a profit.
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June 19th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
They need to get it out ahead of schedule. Lots of juicy subsidies AVAILABLE NOW. And gas prices seem to be rising fast.
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June 19th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Hi John1701a @ 120,
There is no contradiction. Converting energy from mechanical to electrical, then back to mechanical is not as efficient as direct drive. So the Prius gets more than 50, if I recall you are getting around 55, and with a 15% loss, that would mean the Volt would get about 47 MPG which is consistent with “close to 50.” In addition, if you toss in that the Volt is operating at peak efficiency producing the urban average power of about 8 kW, and the low speed of the Volt (21 MPH average) in the urban cycle, getting near 50 seems reasonable to me.
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June 19th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Any competent Engineer will readily tell you that an ICE engine cn be optimized to produce its best mileage at a certain constant RPM.. That is how the EREV generator works.
I would be surpised if a 1.4 liter virtually constant rpm engine cannot subtantially out perform a 1.8 liter all-rpm engine in fuel economy. 100 out of 100 engineers would accept a wager that they can do so.
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June 19th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
#128 stas peterson
My thoughts exactly.
I can’t wait to see a ‘running’ IV!
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June 20th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Stas & MuddyRoverRob
I think the doubters of this are in the last throws of resistance on this issue. It isn’t that hard to understand where the range of mpg’s that ER mode will fall within unless one refuses to believe GM will use an efficiency optimized ICE cycle.
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June 23rd, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Given most of our electricity comes from burning fuel of some sort, what is the carbon footprint of the new Volt? If you look at the use of Ethanol, we burn more fuel to make Ethanol that we do in our fuel mixtures. Where is the Green or good for the environment in that? Howmuch will it cost per Kwh to run this car? Who would you rather pay, the electric company or the oil company? The only way to be truly grean is to use green diesel produced from non-food crops and synthetic materials. Are you telling me with today’s technology, we can not make a synthetic material that can be burned our engines? C’mon man, wake up…..
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June 24th, 2009 at 10:42 am
July 17th, 2009 at 5:17 pm