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GM Terminates Malibu and Vue Hybrids: Promises Newer Better Hybrids in 2010 and 2011

June 13th, 2009 | Posted in: Hybrid, PHEV

GM has announced that the Chevy Malibu mild hybrid will be discontinued. They have also terminated 2-mode strong hybrid Saturn Vue.

2010 Malibu hybrids are no longer being produced because of low sales volumes and a glut of 2009 models on dealer lots. Estimates suggest only 2142 Malibu hybrids were sold from its release in April 2008 through April 2009. This in the setting of about 64,363 standard Malibu sales.

The hybrid Malibu which essentially only switches the engine off at stops to save gas, delivers 26 mpg city|34 mpg hwy while the standard model delivers 22 mpg city|33 mpg hwy. And that for a $4000 premium.

The 2-mode Vue was aborted because the Saturn brand is being sold. It was originally supposed to launch this Spring, but the bankruptcy process delayed those plans. Although not finalized, it is unlikely Penske will source these vehicles.

GM already offers the 2-mode system in its large trucks. The VUE is a smaller front wheel drive vehicle.

The smaller platform 2-mode strong hybrid drivetrain will live on however in a different vehicle and to be launched in 2010 as a 2011 model year. GM also says it intends to launch a plug-in version in 2011.

New mild hybrids will also arrive in 2011 using GM’s second generation BAS+ system which contain high power Hitachi next generation 120V lithium-ion batteries. That system will deliver a 20% improvement in efficiency over the current generation. These will be three times as powerful and more cost-effective. The system in addition to stopping the engine at stops also offers electric boost during acceleration.

Will these next generation hybrids sell well? We will all have to wait and see.

Posted by: Lyle

96 Responses to “GM Terminates Malibu and Vue Hybrids: Promises Newer Better Hybrids in 2010 and 2011”

Dave K. Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:08 am

Buy a car for $26,000 or get the same thing in a hybrid for just $7000 more.

It’s best to avoid the electric assist transmission all together. EREV is the way to go. Wheels driven by a large electric motor all of the time.

=D~

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Adam Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:10 am

I doubt they will sell very many BAS equipped cars.

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Steve Martin Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:17 am

Hopefully the 2nd generation BAS+ with the new Hitachi batteries will provide better improvements over BAS+ version 1 to stimulate hybride sales.

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Marinko Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:20 am

Hi Lyle,

The post pasted below is from a thread of a previoous article, but have included it here because it is directly relevant. I see the hybrid version of the pontiac G8 produced as a test concept by GM’s Australian subsidiary Holden as a perfect replacement for the above hybrids.

In the small car market GM can have the Cruze which gets fuel economy of 7.7L per 100km. There is no reason why they couldn’t make this vehicle E85 capable.

For the large family car market, they could commercialise the hybrid ver of the Pontiac G8 (ECommodore here in Australia), it would get 5.7L per 100km.

And finally for the medium car / electric car market, you have the Chevy Volt.

Such a scenario will allow GM to have 3 different vehicles with 3 different technology and price points. Not only would GM cover different markets, it will have diversified risk concerning which technologies will dominate over the short and medium term.

Below is the abovementioned post from a previous thread.
——————————————-

Hi Lyle,

I wish I had a chance to put the following question for you to ask but was occupied with exams, but better late than never:

QUESTION: Does there need to be cultural change at GM and its subsidiaries (meaning w/s change in mgmt) to overcome cultural resistance to the mass production and hence mass adoption of hybrids and electric vehicles?

This question is in relation to an article title “Plug-in cars a pipe dream, says Holden”:
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=63559&vf=1

Note Holden is GM’s Australian subsidiary.

Some Background to my queston:
==========================
Lyle, I have been doing some research into GM’s Australian subsidiary, Holden. Your readers may be surprised to find out, that Holden (on behalf of GM), teamed up with the CSRIO (Australia’s premier govt scientific body) a decade ago to come with a family car that would reduce fuel consumption by half and emmissions by 90%. The car they modeled the hybrid on was the Holden Commodore (Pontiac G8 for you yanks). The car was built for and used in the torch relay for the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games. This car was a big family car that could get 800km on a 45L tank. See this link for the technical specifications:

http://www.csiro.au/solutions/ECOmmodore.html

This issue was revisted last year when the Australian govt committed funds (38 million?) to Toyota to build a hybrid Camry here in Australia, and people were asking well what about the hybrid commodore? Just for the record it sits in the Powerhouse museum in Sydney.

What is interesting about this vehicle is that it uses a lead acid battery with an ultracapacitor built in – the CSRIO patented ultrabattery. It has similar performace of NiMH, faster charge/discharge rates, and is a third of the cost of NiMH, and doesn’t have the Chevron patent issue that the NiMH have. Also the battery has already been road tested for 150,000km and counting and so battery warranty issue is covered and a quick rollout is possible (comapre to testing of Li-ion for volt).

Now, Holden didn’t wanted to be outdone with the hybrid Camry announcement last year (Camry due out early next year), so they announced that they would come out with their own hybrid family car – to date neither Ford nor GM holden have a hybrid family sedan. This announcement was a year ago.

However, earlier this week, when Holden’s energy and environment director, Richard Marshall made some ludicrous claims in the article “Plug-in cars a pipe dream, says Holden” which to mean sounds like backing of the committment to build a hybrid Commodore.

Instead, with govt funds, Holden are going to launch the Cruze, a car that gets approx 8L per 100km. However the hybrid Commodore, a large and more powerful vehicle would be using approx 6L per 100km.

Why the constant exuses from GM? Why not just build this hybrid, especially when the technology is much cheaper than the one Toyota use.

Lyle, if you need clarification on anything, please feel free to email me.

Some other links/articles on the Ecommodore:

Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_ECOmmodore

7:30 Report (current affairs show):
‘Hybrid hype, but who killed the ECommodore?’
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2271918.htm
‘New Commodore do or die for the industry’
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1696794.htm

‘ECOmmodore is Australia’s first ‘green’ car’:
http://www.fastlane.com.au/News/Holden_ECOmmodore.htm

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PLJ Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:31 am

GM is right to get rid of these so-so technologies and concentrate on the big Kahuna – EREVs. GM would always be just an “also ran” in the conventional hybrid field if they continued down that path.

The Chevy Volt and the Voltec technology will leapfrog all current hybrid technology from any manufacturer.

Regular hybrids were a baby step in the right direction, but are a dead end technology in the long run.

The electrification of the automobile will change motoring as we know it and the Volt is at the forefront of this movement.

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Gary Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:39 am

I thought the current BAS turned the engine off while the car is not moving, with the electrics giving a power boost…

Whereas the new BAS+ can move the car at low speeds on only electric power?

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Van Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:41 am

The Malibu “hybrid” was simply a “hybrid” in name only. It netted about a 2 MPG improvement. For about the same money you could buy a real hybrid, such as a Ford Fusion or Prius, and for a little more money you could buy a Camry Hybrid. They (the Malibu “hybrids) did not sell because they were not as good a deal as other market choices.

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ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:59 am

Hybrids are not the way to go. They are still basically ICEs and the electric motors only add perhaps 10 mpg. Full electric is the right way to go and range extenders are appropriate until battery technology catches up with the need. People will be attracted to the VOLT, not just because it cuts out dependency of foreign oil, but because it is quiter, smoother, doesn’t smell and get us out from under the oil company’s power to change prices at will.

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DaV8or Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:04 am

I don’t get the 2 mode cancellation announcement. I mean, I get that there is to be no new GM Vue, but the Vue is identical to the soon to be released Chevy Equinox, GMC Terrain and Cadillac SRX. They could be saying right now that the new Equinox, Terrain and SRX will be available in 2 mode hybrid. Instead they are saying “someday there will be a hybrid again”?? This leads me to believe that the scaled down 2 mode system really doesn’t perform that well or that it has some problems with the system.

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RB Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:05 am

One wonders why GM launched the present Mailbu hybrid, with its markedly higher price tag for very little additional value, maybe even no additional value. It is not beyond imagination that the present Malibu hybrid was launched so that it could fail. In that way people inside who were negatively disposed could say “well we said no one wanted hybrids.” Or maybe people thought the “hybrid” label by itself was so powerful customers would pay thousands extra to have the label, even if the car itself was not meaningfully better.

There’s no doubt that GM has (or at least used to have) the technical expertise to produce competitive and excellent hybrids. GM does not seem to have had the will to produce such cars, however, or maybe they think they can’t do them as profitable cars.

I hope this view is changing within GM insofar as the 2011 etc models. I don’t think I am alone in having become a skeptic about GM’s internal interest in hybrids, apart from use of the word in PR and marketing. “No successful hybrids” seems to have become a part of GM’s culture, so changing that will be hard.

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jdsv Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:12 am

Alright! They Got Those Fake Hybrid Wheels Off The Road!

Now they can start putting actual hybrid or EREV platforms into these top sellers. They couldn’t very well have two different hybrid types for these models on the lots, one to point to as unsuccessful, and another to actually sell and perform. I’m not going to rant more – I’ll only say IT’S ABOUT TIME.

NPNS!! =D~~

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Cynthia Caviar Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:16 am

Who killed the Hybrid ? (hint: two letters)

One thing is absolutely for sure about GM, it does NOT stand for Great Mileage !

Be careful with the red matter !
Peace. Out.

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Javier Jalapeno Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:18 am

Not Again. First they killed the electric car (yes, its true, I saw the movie) and now they are killing the hybrid (even after getting billions from Uncle).

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kent beuchert Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:24 am

The two mode hybrid system is quite flexible and modular. It basically involves the trannies, which can be located behind about any sized GM engine. Once you get regen and a way to regurgutate that energy via acceleration and cruise mode, that’s about it for hybrid efficiency gains. Notice that regen simply recovers kinetic energy otherwise lost during braking, thus is only of value when stopping – high spped cruising is actually more effiicnet using a non-hybrid system. Don’t buy a hybrid if you mostly drive, rather than stop and go. In that situation a hybrid is a total waste of money. And they cost more to fix and maintain and areless reliable. More parts = less reliability, which is waht electric cars have in their favor.

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BillR Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:26 am

There will be a number of changes that will go into these cars to achieve better gas mileage.

If the 2010 Equinox can get 32 mpg hwy, what can we expect from a Malibu with the same engine (2.4L with direct injection). Add on the new BAS+ with Li-Ion (which are about 10% more efficient than NiMH) and a few aero touches, and you could see a low cost Malibu that gets 30+ in city driving and 40+ on the highway. 2-mode will offer better towing/city mileage, followed by the ultimate, an E-REV.

I’ll go with #4 Marinko and his quote:

“Such a scenario will allow GM to have 3 different vehicles with 3 different technology and price points. Not only would GM cover different markets, it will have diversified risk concerning which technologies will dominate over the short and medium term.”

Thanks, Mate.

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jdsv Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:30 am

Hmm.. I stopped reading too early out of excitement. BAS+ ? That is still a lame (in the uncouth meaning of the word) hybrid. It still won’t sell or make any impact without only a SLIGHT increase in price, and what are the chances of that happening? It’s a good that it’ll be three times as powerful, because that’s just what we need – mild hybrids with more raw power.

And the two-mode will appear in _a_ vehicle next year? One, singular model? That’s a good way to kill a drivetrain project.. just strangle it into thread-bare obscurity. Oh, but we’ll be getting another one in 2011? Great. I’m very excited over the next three years, leaner, meaner, more progressive GM be building about as many hybrid sedans as Toyota builds in a month. There had better be a hell of a lot more than that coming down the pipe, or else the $90 billion+ in taxpayer money will have been wasted by the time gas hits $5 a gallon.

NPNS… =D~~~~~~~~

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Alex S Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:31 am

Please make sure that the new models are as pretty as an Audi A5 or BMW M5 or it’s not gonna be enough. If GM says they are reinventing themselfes, they’ll better start with the design, their cars are ugly!!! Look at Toyota as a model for technology and Audi and BMW as a model for design, and you should be reinvented enough.

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Iva Biggen Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:33 am

Did anyone notice the difference in mileage between GM’s hybrid and non-hybrid models. OMG, it is like so obvious that GM doesn’t have a clue how to make a real hybrid. I hope the Volt does better than these pieces of garbage.

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statik Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:40 am

October 11, 2007 – 4:33 pm ET

DETROIT – General Motors is out to bust skeptics who believe Detroit can’t build a competitive car.

And it’s using the redone 2008 Chevrolet Malibu as a “catalyst to disrupt” that belief, Mark LaNeve, GM vice president of sales, service and marketing for North America, said today.

“We’re tired of being a foreign car in our own country,” reads one print ad launching the bigger, much-improved Malibu next week. The push is part of an estimated $150-million-plus, three-phase blitz from ad agency Campbell Ewald themed “the car you can’t ignore.”

http://reviews.carreview.com/blog/gm-unveils-malibu-ad-campaign-strategy/#more-163
————————

Apparently, you can. (”the car you can’t ignore)

/150 mil well spent Mark LaNeve…today must be ‘phase 3′

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Hal Lusinashin Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:41 am

So GM is now promising better hybrids. Is this some kind of joke. A brain dead monkey could make a “better” hybrid than these models.
Come on GM, you can do better than this. Jeeesh.

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CS Guy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:53 am

BAS? Isn’t that from the Italian branch of GM: “Hallo America, I bring you a Bulla Sheeta hybrid…”

I guess Bulla Sheeta means something totally different in Italy.

(PS, just joking. I love Italy and want to visit some day when the corporations have stopped strangling the middle class out of existence)

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LauraM Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:03 am

Well, they promised the government hybrids. So, hopefully, they mean it when they say they’ll come up with a better version. Otherwise, I think they would have kept these around for PR purposes.

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Texas Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:10 am

Thankfully they are dropping all of their half-assed hybrid technology. These were all conceived and designed at a time when GM was not fully committed to the concept.

Now that they are serious they are going to but forth serious effort. The Volt showed the executives the light. The global financial collapse and $147 per barrel oil didn’t hurt solidify their resolve.

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charlie h Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:11 am

#9, DaV8or, “I don’t get the 2 mode cancellation announcement. I mean … the Vue is identical to the soon to be released Chevy Equinox… They could be saying right now that the new Equinox… will be available in 2 mode hybrid. Instead… someday there will be a hybrid again”?? This leads me to believe that the scaled down 2 mode system really doesn’t perform that well or that it has some problems with the system.”

One word: Cost. GM can’t build the two-mode system and deliver it at a price point that will sell, unless bundled into a fullsize SUV at premium option levels (and then… it still has major cost issues). Similar problem with the BAS, except a $4K problem instead of a $10-15K problem. They can’t attractively package it into a vehicle with a mid-$20K’s base price, like the Equinox. I’ve seen rumors that the two-mode transmission, all by itself, is $10K. Then there’s batteries, controls, regen braking gear… It’s very expensive to build.

Of course, these failures, especially the marketing failure, are why I have no faith in the Volt.

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statik Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:15 am

#19 Statik (me)

Actually, I shouldn’t disparage the Malibu itself with its hybridization, it has actually been a pretty good car for GM. It never got back previous gen sales levels…but that wasn’t the car’s fault, that was more the loss of fleet sales.

/just the ‘hybrid’ Malibu was a nonsensical product
//apologies to Mark too…even though it hurts me to say it (=

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CS Guy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:16 am

23 Texas, “Thankfully they are dropping all of their half-assed hybrid technology”
I wish you were correct but in the article GM states clearly that they are continuing the farce of 2-mode hybrids and will have more out in 2011. I personally hope that those models flop. GM deserves to fail if it doesn’t have the will to go forward with the obviously superior EREV in all its new hybrids.

All joking aside (referring to my above post), GM needs to be more serious about expanding series hybrids across all their product line. There should not have been a non-hybrid Malibu (I disagree about the Malibu styling, I like it). The problem is that GM keeps dipping its toe into the hybrid market. Instead they need to be diving in head first to getting EREV in all their vehicles. The consumer is not quite as stupid (the bulk of us any way) as GM management apparently thinks we are.

GM needs 10 million vehicle sales annually to break even. Is 2,000 hybrids going to amount to anything past a footnote? No. GM will fail again if they don’t take advantage of this unique time in history to become the leader in vehicle technology by putting a series hybrid in every vehicle they sell. Or they could become nothing more than a footnote in automotive history if they continue standing by the sidelines while someone with true vision makes this market their own.

In case anyone has forgotten that foreign oil is killing our economy (as well as us and our environment), here is a reminder:
“T. Boone Pickens: April U.S. Foreign Oil Dependence Figures Highest Yet in 2009

U.S. Sent $18.6 Billion Overseas and Imported 375 Million Barrels of Oil in April 2009″
http://www.pickensplan.com/oilimports/

A “mild” or “2 mode” hybrid is the most worthless of window dressing in that you cannot escape using gas. Only a Voltec series hybrid drive system gives YOU the freedom to decide if you send your dollars overseas to those who want to kill your kid or your neighbor’s kid.

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carcus1 Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:22 am

Primary problems:

Malibu mild hybrid: Too much cost/complication for not enough mpg gain. (maybe gen ii BAS+ will be better)

Vue hybrid: Too heavy. (at least 500 lb overweight)

/Is Toyota really offering to license the HSD? Might want to think about that, GM.

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CDAVIS Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:30 am

______________________________________________________
#4 Marinko Said:
“…Does there need to be cultural change at GM and its subsidiaries (meaning w/s change in mgmt) to overcome cultural resistance to the mass production and hence mass adoption of hybrids and electric vehicles?…”
—–

Marinko,
That was an excellent in-depth post on your part and a worthwhile read…thanks.

Your post I believe reaffirms two things that will greatly challenge GM in its bid to survive the Electric Car Revolution that ironically GM itself has played a big part in igniting the quick moving revolution.

1. GM needs to focus on fewer projects of more long term relevance.

2. GM’s upper management needs new young blood that is as attuned as their very talented project engineers that the car making world is quickly changing. GM lacks upper management that understands and believes that inside the next 10 years the majority of commodity cars sold will be mass produced electronic appliances requiring a complete re-invention of how cars are being made today. GM needs upper management that understands how to be competitive in the mass production of electronics appliances.

It is possible that Lyle’s above post is evidence that GM is transitioning to be more focused on fewer but more relevant initiatives.

Time will tell.
______________________________________________________

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:33 am

I’m still waiting for the applause to die down in the sales office…!

Sales of regular Malibus has been pretty good. That’s because they look at the MPG on the regular model, then they look over at the HYBRID Malibu that gets 2 MPG better, then they look at us and ask “Why?”; (and we have no really good answer); then they buy the regular Malibu.

With the wanna-be Hybrid gone, all we have to do now is wait for the EREV Cruze to hit the showroom! In theory, the price should be pretty close to the regular Malibus, and with gas well over $3.00 per gallon at that time, they will buy the Cruze.

Then they can remove the Malibu altogether.

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carcus1 Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:49 am

Unfortunately, Charlie H. @ 24 probably has it nailed in his “cost” paragraph. You look at that 2 mode transmission cutaway and it looks like a space shuttle compared to the HSD piper cub.

2 mode
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Two_mode_cutaway.jpg

HSD
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_PSD_01.gif

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TexMex Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

CDAVIS @28
SAID: It is possible that Lyle’s above post is evidence that GM is transitioning to be more focused on fewer but more relevant initiatives.

===================

IMHO, GM is pis*ing in the wind…if what they are becoming more focused on is parallel “mild” hybrids. By the time (next 3-4years) GM gets it right on “mild” hybrids to compete with Ford’s current excellent Fusion Hybrid offering, that technology will have been overtaken by series hybrids and BEV. It would be like running to get to the dance just in time for the end of the last song. GM’s best shot at survival is to take the talent and resource that they have and focus it on delivering competitive Series EREV and BEV so that GM can get out of the business of arriving late at the dance.

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jeffhre Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

#29
CorvetteGuy

I’m still waiting for the applause to die down in the sales office…!

Sales of regular Malibus has been pretty good. That’s because they look at the MPG on the regular model, then they look over at the HYBRID Malibu that gets 2 MPG better, then they look at us and ask “Why?”
_______________________
So of course you say with a wry smile and the experience of knowing what always happens. “The regular Malibu was engineered so well that that’s all the hybrid package could squeeze out of it mileage wise”!

Does this site feel like a bus man’s holiday to you; when you take a break from explaining cars for a living to go talk about cars on a blog site?

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Ken White Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

I beleive the reason the hybrids are bad sellers, at least for me are as follows:’ (Currently own a 2009 Malibu LTZ, 4 cyl, 22/33, I avg. 26.5)
1. The Hybrids version, has no options
2. I wanted leather, but some feel leather should not be in a Hybrids.
3. No Sunroof (At least most dealers, get them w/o sunroof)
4.No leather, means no heated seats, and no power passenger seat.
5.No leather wrap steering wheel. Try holding that on a hot day.. Ouch!!
5.No, iPod interface.
These cars look like rental cars, very basic. Bottle line, people buy, must have vehicles, not just a hybird cause it adds a few miles. Now, if there was a big jump in mileage, I can see it. But it’s only 4 miles city and 1 highway. And I wanted a all black w/leather and leather wrap steering wheel is a must. So, in my case the hybird lost out. In two years I’ll sale it, so I can get my VOLT.. Becasue the volt is a must have car. I tried to wait, but my lease was up and need a car now… With all the rebates and discounts, I could not pass it up. Plus I get to deduct the sales tax.. This year.

That’s my story an I’m stick’n to it..

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LauraM Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

#24 charlie h

I agree with you about GM’s current hybrids. Although the two mode system works great for buses? .And I think buses are a better solution to our oil dependence than the Prius. (Yes, I know they sold Allison, but that was because they needed the money, not because it wasn’t profitable.)

Also, just because their current hybrid’s are a waste of time and money doesn’t mean that the Volt will be. Many companies have come up with a game changing product after going nowhere for years. The apple ipod. The Nintendo wii. The Chrysler k-car and minivan. And, now it looks like the palm pre might be a contender. Why not the GM volt?

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CDAVIS Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

______________________________________________________
Too Little Too Late?

[Now Mazda announces that they will ramp up the engineering and design on hybrid models in hopes of bringing several to market before 2020....According to Mazda Executive Vice President Philip Spender, "It's going to be the 20-teens that we're going to be actually engineering all this. And we're actually trying to pull that forward, if we can." We've started to talk a lot more about it lately, in part because everybody else is."]

Source:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1021438_mazda-decides-to-give-green-light-to-hybrid-versions-of-existing-models
_____________________________________________________

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LauraM Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

#29 CorvetteGuy

Do you think the existence of the hybrid model helped sell the regular malibu? Not that that would justify the expenditure on the hybrid. I’m just wondering if this will impact regular malibu sales.

By the way, what do you think about the new franchise rules?

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CDAVIS Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

_____________________________________________________
Follow up to my #28 CDAVIS:

Will the Electric Car Revolution be as quick movoing as the cell phone revolution? GM says NO.

Richard Marshall, Environment Director of GM’s Holden Australia: “It won’t take 100 years for electric vehicles but it will take several decades until the market is dominated by electric vehicles. If people are thinking it’s going to be like mobile phones, where they went from incredibly expensive status symbols to relatively affordable, commonplace items in a very short time period, then they’re wrong.”

Source:
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=63559&vf=1
______________________________________________________

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

#36 LauraM

Malibu Hybrid has definitely helped with regular Malibu sales, and I mean for the PRICE-vs-MPG buyers. The premium for the Hybrid Malibu did not justify the piddly 2MPG increase. So customers who like the style-comfort-features-etc would go for the regular Malibu.

I am positive that when the EREV Cruze hits the showrooms, the GM can kiss the Malibu goodbye. It is a VERY good car, but it carries with it all of the baggage from the last 15 years worth of Malibus that had the worst reputation of being little more than a “Rental Car Quality” vehicle. And that ain’t saying much.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

#32 jeffhre

I hang out on this blog site because I do believe that electric/and/or/electric-hybrids is what this country needs to be closer to energy independance from foreign oil. Most of the engineers who contribute seem to know their stuff.

I think the technology will be here in about 10 years for an ‘all-electric’ Camaro and Corvette. I think they will be sold alongside the big V8’s. I don’t think gas engines will go away completely in my life time.

Sales in general are really slow. So in between customers and projects I throw in my worthless 2-cents to this site.

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LauraM Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

#37 CDAVIS

I think it’s always a good idea to hedge your bets and look into more than one technology. And if bio fuels will actually help rejuvenate your soil, that’s amazing. (In the US it increases soil depletion, which is one of my major problems with it.)

As far as the long term adoptions of plug-in electric vehicles within ten years–given that most cars today remain the road for ten years, that’s a pretty tall order. 15 maybe. But my guess is more like 20-30.

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LauraM Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

#38 CorvetteGuy

That makes sense about the hybrid. Although I can’t help feeling there’s some PR value to the word hybrid even though the car itself makes zero sense.

About the Malibu name–do you think GM will change its name after it gets out of bankruptcy? Should it? Personally, I’m kind of attached to the name “GM” even though it’s been on the decline my entire life.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

41 LauraM
Do you think GM will change its name after it gets out of bankruptcy?

I don’t think Chevrolet ‘needs’ the Malibu once the VOLT arrives. I have not seen them side-by-side, but when it was on Letterman, it sure looked like the cabin size on the VOLT was about the same as Malibu! Then when you add the new Cruze to the lineup and possibly the Orlando, now you have too many models again for a given brand, and that was part of GM’s problem in the first place.

I vote that Malibu goes away into history.

As for GM changing its name? No. But I do think they could change the current logo from BLUE to GREEN. That would get the point across and still have a 100 year old name to stand behind.

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CDAVIS Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

______________________________________________________
#40 LauraM Said:
“…As far as the long term adoptions of plug-in electric vehicles within ten years–given that most cars today remain the road for ten years, that’s a pretty tall order. 15 maybe. But my guess is more like 20-30…”
—–

I agree it may be 20+ years before the majority street fleet adopts electric (because as you pointed out the 10 year legacy life of existing ICE street fleet) but I do believe that inside 10 years the majority of consumer new cars sold will be Series EREV and BEV. I also believe that the Asian countries well end up manufacturing the vast majority of those electric vehicles because Asia is better able to adapt car making into a method of mass production of electronic appliances, similar to what Mitsubishi is aggressively doing with the i-MiEV.

I know I keep pointing out the Mitsubishi i-MiEV but how they are going about designing/manufacturing that car is a clear glimpse into the immediate future of electric appliance car making which is far removed from how commodity ICE and Mild Hybrid cars are manufactured today.

Contrary to GM management, I do believe that Electric Cars will go from expensive status symbols to relatively affordable items in a very short time period (similar to cell phones)….Mitsubishi is clearly on the way to prove that to be true.
______________________________________________________

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carcus1 Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

Ford had it’s highest number of hybrid sales last month.

Source: Hybridcars.com

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statik Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

I think GM would do well with avoiding the price inevitable comparisons of ‘Standard car’ and ‘Standard car + hybrid’ It has worked for some other guys, (Ford, Toyota, Honda) on some selected models…but GM burned themselves with being perceived as just ‘putting a hybrid sticker’ on the side, rather than producing a viable product.

Instead of making something like the Saturn Vue and also making a fleet of relatively useless rebadged cousins to it under other names, ie) GMC Terrain, Captiva (MaXX), Antera, Equinox (LWB), Torrent (LWB) , XL7 (LWB),etc. Make one of them a dedicated ‘hybrid only,’ only…no ‘regular’ offering, that way you can avoid the, “Hey, there goes GM again…the Vue is $24,000, but hybrid is $29,000, that is stupid” sentiment I think you find from most people.

The ‘hybrid’ sticker on the side didn’t/has not worked out. Maybe they can turn it around with a, ‘hey this is a unique hybrid offering’ (even though it isn’t).

Nutsehell: Why make a Cruze and a Cruze ‘40 mile AER’…when you can make a Cruze and a Volt? They are the same thing…but it has a totally different feeling, and avoids the comparisons.

/Apply that same philosophy to the hybrid lineup.

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CS Guy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

31 TexMex, “GM’s best shot at survival is to take the talent and resource that they have and focus it on delivering competitive Series EREV and BEV”
[Applause] Here! Here! You said it. It seems we Texans have a clear understanding of the necessary path forward, and of the environmental damage caused by the oil industry because we live in it every day.

I am including a link here (shamelessly stolen from someone’s post on the previous article)
“Mitsubishi has high hopes for electric and hybrid vehicles and they are hedging their bets on this advanced technology well into the future as they have provided outlined plans indicating their desires to introduce 5 additional electric models within the next 4 years.” … … …
“If they stick to their plans released above, they will be ahead of most other major automakers and could pave the future for the electric car.”
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1021399_mitsubishi-announces-bold-plans-to-release-5-more-evs-by-2013

1. Have a vision for your company
2. Work toward that vision and don’t get distracted by BS (or BAS)
3. You will gain serious market share

Mitsu: “Electric cars will be 20% of production by 2020.”
GM: “Gasoline powered cars will make up the lion’s share of our sales during the next 10 years.”

Which one sounds like a company with a vision? GM could learn something from Mitsu on this one.

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CS Guy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

Since EVO hasn’t been posting today, I thought I’d take up his battle cry in favor of making every motorized thing we use electric, not just cars…
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/11/husqvarnas-panthera-leo-is-the-mower-of-the-future-for-your-la/

Now go watch that video and tell me you wouldn’t want an electric riding lawnmower. And I learned how to pronounce “Husqvarna.”
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -
Second topic: many of you have wondered how gas mileage might be measured in EREV vehicles. Here is a link from Argonne National Labs.
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/457.pdf

My eyes went all buggy with all the equations but maybe it might help some of us here.

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grat Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

#30 carcus1:

You might want to take a look at the entire Prius transmission (HSD), rather than just a couple gears from it:

http://privatenrg.com/#Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

Not quite so simple, is it?

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JEC Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

48 grat

As a side note, the link you provided also discuss brake regen and the related wear on the brake pads.

A couple posts back, someone asked if hybrids would have less issues with rotors that warp. As, the article shows that brake pad wear is nearly nil, so would the effects of rotor heating be nearly imperceptible.

Nice article and lots of good information on hybrids. Thanks!

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StevePA Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

#38 CorvetteGuy

Hope your prediction of electric Vette and Camaro comes to pass. Actually, can’t imagine it not happening. Cost and availability of fossil fuels at some point will make gas burners a chancy proposition for their owners. Just hope your 10 year estimate is long.

Every Saturday evening in warm weather months there is an informal “car show” in a nearby mall parking lot. It typically attracts about 100 high performance vehicles from all eras, from essentialy stock to highly customized. Favorite Chevys include Corvettes from ‘63 to present (though haven’t yet seen a ZR1), and the Malibu SSs from the late 60s and early 70s). All those honking V8s…and the old boys who rebuilt and cared for them…Wondering how long before the first EREV hot rod shows up…it’ll happen someday, though I’m guessing it’ll be the “tuner” boys who do it first…A Volt on steroids…just think of all the audio and air compressor you can power with that big battery!

An aside due to your So Cal location – one guy has been bringing by a 1936 bakery route truck he’s restoring – originally owned by a bakery in So Cal.

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CS Guy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

Here’s one from the “I hope this comes to the US file.”
A $10,000 BEV with 200 mile range and 80 miles per hour top speed!
http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/21/bee-one-electric-car-to-be-tiny-cheap-and-cute/
“British start-up Bee has just dropped some details on its forthcoming uber-affordable electric car, the One. This five-door affair will have a top speed of around 80 miles per hour, with a maximum range of 200 miles before needing a recharge. The car will run on two battery packs stowed under the floor, and will be easily swappable in case charging stations start popping up all over the U.K. The One will also have a constant 3G connection for management and performance system software monitoring and updates. The most exciting detail about the car, however (besides its adorable attitude) is likely to be its pricepoint: £12,000 ($17,700) plus the recent government subsidy of £5000 ($7400) for electric car purchases will bring this puppy down to about £7,000 — or just over $10,000. Sure — it’s not Tata-cheap… but this one’s electric! The One is scheduled to go into production during 2011 with an initial run of about 12,000 vehicles.”

I can dream can’t I?

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carcus1 Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

#48 grat,

Yes, I’ve seen that link.

What’s your point? Are you telling me the HSD and the 2 mode are equally complex?

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CS Guy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

http://www.beeautomobiles.com/

(their link – to save you a search)

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carcus1 Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 4:59 pm

From Green Car Congress:

“With the FWD two-mode targeted at larger sedans on up into crossovers and SUVs, and the RWD two-mode applied in full-size SUVs and light trucks, GM has a product gap for an advanced full hybrid offering for smaller, lower-torque engines in more compact vehicles.
To address that, GM is developing a third full hybrid system targeted at those applications, said Larry Nitz, GM Executive Director of Hybrid Powertrains, during an interview at SAE 2009 World Congress.
Nitz would not disclose if the third full hybrid system is a direct extension of the two-mode transmission, only saying “Stay tuned.”
Nitz also noted that the coming next-generation of the mild GM Hybrid System (earlier post), which in its current form is applied in the Malibu, VUE and Aura, will offer equivalent power to Honda’s IMA system in the new Insight.
Nitz also said that the next-generation GM Hybrid System was “aligned with Honda’s perspective” on cost-effectiveness and performance.”

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/2mode-fwd-20090509.html

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

#50 StevePA

As we say here, “Cool, Dude.”

Photos are always welcome! Email them anytime.

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john1701a Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

Not quite so simple, is it?
________________________________

Haven’t ever looked at an automatic transmission, eh?

The setup in Prius is simple in comparison.

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carcus1 Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 6:31 pm

Off topic,

This was posted by Joe @ 176 a day late on the “EPA” topic.

—————-
Take this info for what’s it worth.
When the engine kicks-in in the Volt ( with only 30% charge left in the battery), the generator will generate it’s maximum power output until the battery reaches 80% of full charge. If at that time the driver is going up a steep hill, that power may be all directed to the electric motor (front wheels). If any excess power is produce, then the rest of the power will be directed to the battery.
The engine will have a long stroke with a sweet spot that’s in the low RPM’s which will not vary much.
In case your wondering, I can at least say I’m retired from GM.
——————-

/I have no idea if he has inside info or it’s just random speculation. But what he’s saying (long stroke, gen comes on and stays on at the battery full mark) would solve lots of problems, but at the expense of some (a little?) fuel efficiency. Among other reasons, holding the battery at 80% vs. 30% may be the best option if the “Sybil” issue is pronounced.

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Deep Cycle Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 6:33 pm

GM actually makes a Malibu and Vue Hybrid ? Who knows this ? Answer: Nobody.

GM has done a horrendous job of marketing hybrids.

And it looks like the Volt is in for more of the same. Nobody (except for those Volt trolls that inhabit this blog) knows what a Volt is and probably never will.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

I’m afraid you guys are dreaming – GM looks like it’s all done in. Hope they sell Voltec to somebody who can make a go of it.

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Dan Petit Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 7:22 pm

Wouldn’t it be really cool if GM made a way to convert all the hybrids to partial battery electric EREV’s?

You could essentially just add some sort of minimally-specified pack, and, a power controller would self-analyze that pack under increasingly higher incremental discharge rates in order to help propel the car.
The resident software could display the characteristics of your
“add a pack”, and tell you how your aftermarket pack is doing.

That way, you could have all the benefits of a standard-production
hybrids, yet have a self-analytic-adaptive-controller that could pave the way to essentially go “semi-voltec” right across the board with hybrids.

You could lease your own pack when you thought it was time, or, if a manufacturer made you a deal you could not refuse. (Just make sure the pack warranty is equivalent to the mileage you would do, and the term of the lease). The self-analytic-adaptive-controller could be programmable to make the pack last as long as practicable.

This would be an exceptional way to explode the growth of “green electric motoring”, by making

self-analytic-adaptive controllers

that can “learn” the values of any given pack by rates of degradation to not exceed one tenth of a percent threshold.

This might be one of the ways that GM could improve the hybrid product lines, and, at the same time, make the entire product line *extremely*
exciting, nearly as exciting as the Voltec product line.

This sort of device, a “Self-analyzing-adaptive-controller” would be an extremely easy thing to produce, and, this is my formal suggestion for GM for this idea to be their intellectual property at no cost.

Cheers.

Dan Petit.

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CS Guy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

Wow. Talk about constructive criticism (or maybe not).

For the record, please consider any of my comments aimed at GM to be constructive in nature and not born of anger or hatred. My family has been a fan of GM cars and trucks since I can remember. Sure we’ve had other makes but they weren’t as long lasting as our Chevy cars and trucks and Pontiacs were. Tons of maintenance problems with one particular brand (chokeFORDchoke!). I do at times get frustrated with the “1 step forward, 2 steps back” mentality of GM towards electrification of cars and trucks. And a perceived effort at GM to use their hybrids and the Volt in particular to paint their vehicle lines green to hide the true plan of sticking with “business as usual.” If I haven’t made myself clear how I feel about the stupidity of that tactic and its lost opportunity to make a real difference with the Voltec drive system I guess I never will.

Now, to some more constructive criticism. GM get on with it. Guess who is making an electric minivan? Chrysler. And a hybrid Dodge Ram.
They are putting up half the money “to develop a slate of green vehicles lickety-split. Most of the vehicles included in the plan would be electric and plug-in hybrid versions of the Chrysler Town & Country and the Dodge Ram”
http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1021014_chrysler-plugs-in-to-a-chunk-of-government-cash

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BillR Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 7:35 pm

For those interested, GM has a good video clip at their website on the battery lab.

It includes clips of the Volt driving, shows the plug and the how it plugs in, and also shows the Volt’s battery pack.

Worth the watch!

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/

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Dan Petit Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 7:40 pm

I wish I could watch everything coming through from GM, but my computer is a strictly-dedicated business applications unit which can not have any further programs (sound, flash player, etc.) installed onto it.

Maybe some kind someone at GM could send me a DVD of everything someday to my home address as published in the phone book in Austin. That would be exceptional marketing methodology as well.

Dan.

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brad Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

I think this is a good sign. These are crap hybrids. They are not the realy thing, they only get a few mpgs better. It doesn’t make gm look good when they make a mild hybrid even if it is cheaper to build.

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statik Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

#57 carcus1 said:

Off topic,

This was posted by Joe @ 176 a day late on the “EPA” topic.

—————-
Take this info for what’s it worth.
When the engine kicks-in in the Volt ( with only 30% charge left in the battery), the generator will generate it’s maximum power output until the battery reaches 80% of full charge. If at that time the driver is going up a steep hill, that power may be all directed to the electric motor (front wheels). If any excess power is produce, then the rest of the power will be directed to the battery.
The engine will have a long stroke with a sweet spot that’s in the low RPM’s which will not vary much.
In case your wondering, I can at least say I’m retired from GM.
——————-

/I have no idea if he has inside info or it’s just random speculation. But what he’s saying (long stroke, gen comes on and stays on at the battery full mark) would solve lots of problems, but at the expense of some (a little?) fuel efficiency. Among other reasons, holding the battery at 80% vs. 30% may be the best option if the “Sybil” issue is pronounced.
=========================

If I interpret what he is saying is that the ICE recharges the battery back from 30% to 80%?

If so, that is 100% not going to happen.

Couple reasons.
A) That is not efficient by any stretch, ICE running a generator to recharge a battery pack
B) that is more strain/usage cycles put on the battery…and GM is trying all it can do to limit the strain on the packs (like the 50% usage band), they don’t want to potentially go through multiple cycles on a daily basis…which would assuredly bring on a replacement pack before the 10/150.
C) GM said so

You will get a trickle/small charge to maintain the ‘minimum’ level of the pack…and as I understand it, in extreme circumstances when the ICE can’t meet the demand of the driver/situation (crazy hills/heavy acceleration) the car may temporarily deep into the ‘reserve’ portion of the pack, but otherwise the pack is inaccessible for use until it is ‘plugged’ in again.

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Ballyhooded America Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 8:52 pm

Just came back from the Automotive Battery conference in Long Beach, CA,
http://www.advancedautobat.com/LLIBTA/index.html

I talked to many battery experts privately, the consensus seems to be the PHEV battery reliability is a major concern still NOT solved yet, and may not be solved anytime in the near future (~5 years). The battery from A123 have the best durability, but the low energy density is bad and durability within 10 years is unlikely to maintain 80% initial performance unless you are located in a place without cold and hot temperature (say San Francisco, CA). The pouch cell used by LG Chem/CPI is also subject to venting due to the soft packaging. Leading Japanese companies still have battery failure (pouch cell design) about 1-3 per million, which is incredibly good. Major Japanese auto companies view the failure rate of 1 out of 100 million as the minimum standard to ensure good automotive reliability. (Since PHEV has a few hundred single cells, this criteria basically dictates no more than 3 battery failure out of one million PHEV within 10 years, the frivolous lawsuits in the USA scares Toyota, etc) )

Most battery experts suspect the much ballyhooed Chevy Volt is a PR stunt for an extremely desperate company. Also a US competitor (you know who is that) also points out the compromised driving experience with a long upper slope.

Everyone think the BYD F3DM is a joke, their electric motor used outdated technology, and their battery can’t last even 3 years. Thinking to pay another $15K for a PHEV battery? Guess NOT!

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Vincent Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:28 pm

GM…good move…it a was a feeble attempt at best anyway.

While your at it GM…fave lift the Malibu real fast. Nice car but it already looks dated.
Want to keep it selling…re do the front and rear fascia fast!

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carcus1 Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 9:48 pm

Statik @ 65,

“If I interpret what he is saying is that the ICE recharges the battery back from 30% to 80%?”
_________________

That’s what he’s saying. I think he might be right. I’ll try to post with some numbers next week.

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statik Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

#69 carcus1 said:

Statik @ 65, “If I interpret what he is saying is that the ICE recharges the battery back from 30% to 80%?…If so, that is 100% not going to happen.”
_________________

That’s what he’s saying. I think he might be right. I’ll try to post with some numbers next week.
==========================
==========================

He’s not right…for all the reasons I mentioned in #65.

Here also is a direct quote from Andrew Farrah, who is the Volt chief engineer:

“When you get to the customer depletion point, the engine will come on seamlessly as it’s supposed to. But when the engine comes on to spin the generator, it does so with the idea that we’re generating electric energy to drive the wheels, not to charge the battery. People say the engine comes on to charge the battery, but that’s not what really goes on. The engine comes on to make enough electric energy to turn the wheels, because the wheels are always turning electrically.

Now comes the fun part. Remember the electric generator is about half the size of the motor. So you say, how come you don’t have performance problems if you’re trying to go up a hill with only basically half the power capability? That’s where the battery comes back into play. Because the customer depletion point is not full depletion, there’s still energy available. That’s by design. The idea is during certain other peak situations such as climbing a hill or merging into traffic, you will actually take some more energy out of the battery. So you may actually come down a little bit below customer depletion level.

And then when you take your foot off the gas, as an example when you’re done doing the merge, we had taken a little bit out and the battery has a little less in it. So what we’ll do then is we will opportunistically put that energy back into the battery either through regenerative braking or if we have to we will take some of the energy that’s not needed to turn the wheels and bring the battery up to the customer depletion level.

So we don’t recharge the battery. The customer wont actually see any of this, as their electric range indicator in the car will only say zero.

We are actually using that battery at that point as a peak buffer and we will keep trying to recapture energy as the opportunities allow.”

http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/25/what-happens-in-the-chevy-volt-past-the-customer-depletion-point/
————–
So the ICE clearly comes on with the intention being the sole source of propulsion, until the pack is recharged by the grid. The only time the battery will be re-activated is in very extreme conditions, or ‘peak situations’ … and when ‘normal’ operations resume the pack will be recharged to the minimum level through regen braking (or excess capacity), but only to the ‘customer depletion level’

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CS Guy Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

30% SOC to 80% SOC. That is the 50% you spoke about.

The math certainly adds up. And this is GM’s effort to address the battery life issue mentioned in post #66. If a battery will go down (degrade) to 80% of its capacity over time, say 10 years, then the software in the Volt will over time expand the charge window so that the battery pack will still be able to propel the car 40 miles before it needs recharging. It’s all in the battery management system and the control software.

Lyle had a post a while back about this very thing. In a nutshell: it’s a good idea and very praiseworthy forward thinking by GM to protect the range of the battery pack during its 10 year expected lifetime.

And even long after 10 years when the pack capacity is down too low to be useful in a vehicle it can find a new life in your garage as a power backup unit or as temporary storage for the power made by your solar or wind turbine on your roof. GM will probably have some other ideas about what to do with them but that’s my preference.

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statik Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 10:41 pm

#69 statik (me)

As a corollary to my last post and to reiterate my post in #65. The two main reasons GM is not going to have the ICE recharge the pack is because there is no way their pack can handle going through potentially multiple daily cycles and still performing to spec (if at all) after 10 years or 150,000….the tech is just not anywhere near that good. They are aiming to still have 80% usage at 10/150, so they can alter the usage band and still be perceieved as operating to spec…and it just is not going to happen with that type of set-up.

And secondly because even the most efficient of gas generator/ICE sources used to recharge a pack will have a costing about 5 times that of the grid…so running the ICE to create electricity is double-y bad to the model and/or spirit of the car: a) you are burning gas to produce electricity B) you are burning gas in just about the most inefficient way, which also hurts the basic ‘math’/financials of the car.

To recharge via the ICE after having it depleted from the grid, would not only wipe away any gains fiscally or environmentally from ‘plugging in’, but put it solidly into the red.

(Quote)
Mike D Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 11:28 pm

in response to the last several posts….

I’m glad the ICE only keeps it at a 30% SOC, that’s the whole point, right? How many people would complain if their car’s genenerator kicked in a couple miles from home because the AER was 0, and it kept running until they hurried home, and got it in the garage and plugged it in? Or if the ICE just finishes fully recharging the battery as you come to your destination where you’ll be staying for more than 8 hours and have accessability to a plug. OF COURSE the generator only keeps it at 30% SOC.

Now how much can we squeeze out of it when we’re in customer depletion mode? I’m excited for the series-hybrid hypermilers and how high over the Volt’s EPA extimated mileage when the generator is running (which i think is supposed to be near 50 MPG) that they’ll be able to get. Will it be like the prius and be rated at 50 but be able to get 70-80 from a skilled driver? I think some people’s max ranges on one full charge and tank will get pretty rediculous. Hopefully the production mules will give us more insight on this!

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DonC Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 12:08 am

#71 statik — Using the genset to recharge the battery is, as you say, definitely not cost effective. However, the battery problem may not be that large. Until testing is finished it may be hard to know about cycle life. If you’re only using half the battery and if the charge is slow then you may get a very large number of cycles. Different chemistry can yield very different results.

As an aside, a lot can change even at this stage of development so you can’t rely 100% on what people were saying a year ago. From now on things will begin to be set more concretely.

#42 CorvetteGuy says “I vote that Malibu goes away into history.”

I’m thinking the Malibu is doing what GM hoped it would, which is attracting younger and more affluent customers. The Volt will not be as large — more Civic like than Camry or Accord like. Here is an article which talks about this as well as the point Lutz has continually made about the Volt being critical for marketing GM cars on the coast. (Note the guy who only knew only one GM car — the Volt but not even by name). As Lutz has insinuated, GM has made great strides in quality, but the sad reality is that you can have world class product but if people never think about them then you’re not going to be selling them.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105263320

#45 statik — To follow up on your point, hybrid versions just haven’t been very successful period. You can count among the losers the hybrid versions of the Camry, Accord, Civic, and Malibu. We can probably add to that list the Escalade and the Silverado. People who want a hybrid seem to want a distinctive hybrid, at least until the cost differential becomes small enough to justify the price difference. Until then the extra unjustified cost has to be outweighed by the green cred, which is why Honda has now come up with the Insight rather than a new hybrid Civic. The Ford Fusion may be the exception here, we’ll have to see.

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N Riley Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 12:12 am

Not an unexpected decision, if I must day so. GM is better off with out these mild hybrids. Either get into the game or stay out, GM. And you really can’t stay out of it. Better have some hybrids that will blow the socks off the competition at a very competitive price. Can the “new GM” do it? I wish I knew.

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Unni Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 12:56 am

Have a look on

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/PDF/presentation-sm.pdf

pages 14-16 shows how volt works.

It looks GM had 2 mode only after 2004, They didn’t have anything to compete to Prius when it was on in 1997 :

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6953409

The filed date is Sep 22, 2004.

On Mild malibu : they cant compete with strong hybrids ( people wont buy , they need min strong hybrids or range extenders – the latest reports say they achieve 300% fuel economy compared to ICE.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/osu-erev-20090613.html

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Jim I Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 1:02 am

LauraM #40 Says: “As far as the long term adoptions of plug-in electric vehicles within ten years–given that most cars today remain the road for ten years, that’s a pretty tall order. 15 maybe. But my guess is more like 20-30.”

In the last century, cars made the horse and buggy obsolete in just 15 years. But what really started that revolution? The low cost, high reliabilty, and easy to service Ford Model T. Until then, cars were just toys for people with vision and those with money.

Is any of this sounding familiar???

As soon as the auto manufacturers get the costs down, and the volumes up on both BEV’s and E-REV type vehicles, I should think that a 15 year timeline to overtake ICE based personal transportation is not that far off. Yes, there will still be a lot of the existing cars on the road for many years after that, unless gasoline gets so expensinve that it is cheaper to change over to an electric.

But we need these first models to get on the road and prove themselves worthy. Then we will see demand increase, which will see more models being introduced at a price point that makes the cars attractive to the average consumer. If that happens by 2015, then we will see that conversion to electric really begin to take off.

2010 is the start of a major change in how we move ourselves around. I can’t wait to see it, and more importantly, to be a part of it!!!

But until then, NPNS!!!

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Marinko Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 3:37 am

@ #71 Statik

The uncertainly over battery spec may be an issue for Li-ion, but it isn’t for the lower spec ultrabattery from the CSRIO (Lead Acid battery with in-built ultracapacitor). GM Holden used the batteries in a hybrid ver of the Pontiac G8 for the car used in the Sydney 2000 Olympic torch relay.

Is there any reason why GM couldn’t configure the drivetrain through say a gearstick to alternate between having the ICE recharge the battery and the ICE driving the wheels.

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Jim I Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 7:03 am

Marinko #77:

This would be a complete spec change for the Volt. Part of the unique design is that the ICE never drives the wheels directly. To make the change you are talking about would then require a transmission and a way to change over from the generator to the drive train. All of this adds weight and complexity.

And basically turns it into a modified Prius, which is not what we really want here……

The ICE for the Volt is just to stop range anxiety about having an electric car. For most of us, it will be rarely used. But when we need to take a longer trip, it is there and ready to go…..

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statik Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 8:06 am

#73 DonC said:

45 statik — To follow up on your point, hybrid versions just haven’t been very successful period. You can count among the losers the hybrid versions of the Camry, Accord, Civic, and Malibu. We can probably add to that list the Escalade and the Silverado. People who want a hybrid seem to want a distinctive hybrid, at least until the cost differential becomes small enough to justify the price difference. Until then the extra unjustified cost has to be outweighed by the green cred, which is why Honda has now come up with the Insight rather than a new hybrid Civic. The Ford Fusion may be the exception here, we’ll have to see.
=====================

Indeed. That is exactly what I was trying to get at…albeit in a round about way. A serious hybrid car ie) one you are looking for high returns on as a manufacturer, almost positively needs its own platform…or at least its own unique look/name.

It is too easy to do the math on a hybrid version of a existing platform…and on top of that a lot of people feel the ‘hybrid’ needs to be center of attention when plunking down cash, so the car should be the embodiment of that system.

Lets face it, can people really look at a four door crossover and say, definitively that it is $3,000 overpriced compared to model XXX? Not really. Customers can prefer one over the other, for one reason or the other, but thats about it in most cases. Whereas almost everyone has the ability to say, that hybrid option costs $5,000 more, that is never going to pay for itself, and I’m getting no (or very few) eco-brownie points.

A perfect example is the Theta Premium platform, you have the Equinox and the 2010 SRX running off the same line, both carrying the same V6 (although the Caddy version can add a turbo for another 10K, and the Equinox can have a 4 banger). They could put the word ‘premium’ on the side of the Equinox and have exactly the same options as the Cadillac, but they couldn’t get near the same price…nor would they sell near the same amount.

/perception

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Luke Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 8:11 am

DonC @ 73,

#45 statik — To follow up on your point, hybrid versions just haven’t been very successful period. You can count among the losers the hybrid versions of the Camry, Accord, Civic, and Malibu. We can probably add to that list the Escalade and the Silverado. People who want a hybrid seem to want a distinctive hybrid, at least until the cost differential becomes small enough to justify the price difference. Until then the extra unjustified cost has to be outweighed by the green cred, which is why Honda has now come up with the Insight rather than a new hybrid Civic. The Ford Fusion may be the exception here, we’ll have to see.

I think that the issue may be that hybrid drivers don’t want a half-baked hybrid. Just like sports-car guys don’t want half-baked sports cars. With the Insight or the Prius, it’s it looks like the vendor did more than just slap a fancy transmission into the car — they’ve optimized the weight, aerodynamics, and so forth to save fuel, rather than trying to be everything to everyone.

The MPG numbers and the reviews of the Fusion make it appear to be a fully baked, despite its similarities to the regular Fusion.

To say it another way: You don’t sell a sports car to a sports car guy by adding 10hp to a passenger car. Similarly, you don’t sell a hybrid to a hybrid guy by adding 2mpg to the same passenger car. Token efforts don’t sell cars to people who care about the technology.

P.S. I’ve observed that the extreme green folks sell their cars and live with bicycles and public transport alone. So, yes, hybrid buyers do like technology.

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Larry McFall Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 8:50 am

Were these actually called HYBRIDS? Wow, 22 miles city and a Hybrid to boot. GM done better than that on my 90 Buick Rivera which got 32 on Hwys and most of the time around 25 to 28 in town. It sure took a long time for GM to see these could be the down fall of GM.

Producing GM junk like the past “Hybrids” is just how the American Auto Industry has shot itself in the “Brain”. If it is not VOLTEC, GM should do away with it.

As soon as GM gets the Volt out with it’s technology, then GM needs to work to improve that (VOLTEC) technology so as to stay the leaders in the field.

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statik Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

DonC @ 73,

— To follow up on your point, hybrid versions just haven’t been very successful period. You can count among the losers the hybrid versions of the Camry, Accord, Civic, and Malibu. We can probably add to that list the Escalade and the Silverado. People who want a hybrid seem to want a distinctive hybrid, at least until the cost differential becomes small enough to justify the price difference. Until then the extra unjustified cost has to be outweighed by the green cred, which is why Honda has now come up with the Insight rather than a new hybrid Civic. The Ford Fusion may be the exception here, we’ll have to see.

#80 Luke said:

I think that the issue may be that hybrid drivers don’t want a half-baked hybrid. Just like sports-car guys don’t want half-baked sports cars. With the Insight or the Prius, it’s it looks like the vendor did more than just slap a fancy transmission into the car — they’ve optimized the weight, aerodynamics, and so forth to save fuel, rather than trying to be everything to everyone.

The MPG numbers and the reviews of the Fusion make it appear to be a fully baked, despite its similarities to the regular Fusion.

To say it another way: You don’t sell a sports car to a sports car guy by adding 10hp to a passenger car. Similarly, you don’t sell a hybrid to a hybrid guy by adding 2mpg to the same passenger car. Token efforts don’t sell cars to people who care about the technology.

=============================

Wow Luke, that was put a lot more eloquently and succinctly than I did in #79. Nice post.

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charlie h Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 6:09 pm

#76, Jim I, “In the last century, cars made the horse and buggy obsolete in just 15 years. But what really started that revolution? The low cost, high reliabilty, and easy to service Ford Model T. Until then, cars were just toys for people with vision and those with money. Is any of this sounding familiar???”

No. The car, from the outset, had a greater capacity and was capable of higher sustained speed than the horse. It had lower upkeep (you don’t feed a car when you’re not using it, the horse operates differently). Horses can be intimidating and unpredictable. The Model T, in particular, was initially introduced as an affordable car and it was highly affordable, compared to the competition (the introduction of the assembly line to T production, some years later, made it incredibly affordable).

—

#82, and a whole lof of others…

The Camry has probably hit peak sales of 4 to 5K per month, from time to time., with 2.5-3.5K being the norm. The advantage to the hybrid Camry is that it can sell profitably at low volumes because most of the development of the HSD that it uses was paid for in the volume-selling Prius and the technology is shared with all Toyota’s other hybrids.

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Rob Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

I drove a Fusion Hybrid over the weekend, and was greatly impressed. The car felt solid, its fit and finish were impeccable, and the hybrid display was large, colorful, and easy to interpret. I achieved 45 MPG on the highway without any trouble. (After all, I’ve owned a Prius for 3.5 years.)

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koz Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 9:55 pm

Statik #69

“So the ICE clearly comes on with the intention being the sole source of propulsion, until the pack is recharged by the grid. The only time the battery will be re-activated is in very extreme conditions, or ‘peak situations’ … and when ‘normal’ operations resume the pack will be recharged to the minimum level through regen braking (or excess capacity), but only to the ‘customer depletion level’ ”

======================================

Statik and GM’s engineers are undoubtably correct about the objective of arriving to a charge point with as little charge in the battery as possible at or above the customer depletion point. GM has been very clear and consistent on this part of the design, it’s a 50% window and then maintain customer depletion.

I do hope Statik’s seemingly accurate interpretation of Mr. Farah’s quote is incorrect with regards to the battery only being reactivated under extreme conditions. This is contrary to many other comments by the engineers and the SOC charts. If they do not try to match the running average power and instead have the generator supply instantaneous, then the mpg under ER mode will certainly be something less the Prius’ (%5-%10 less). If they use average running power and keep the genset closer to max efficiency, then we can expect similar mpg to the Prius. Of course, this assumes Atkinson or similarly efficient cycle and similar CdA. The extra use on the battery in the form of micro-cycles will have little affect on battery life as current hybrids show and is a very cost effective use of the battery.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/26/the-chevy-volt-generator-will-run-at-one-of-several-fixed-rpms/
http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/

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jeffhre Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 11:05 pm

#
StevePA

An aside due to your So Cal location – one guy has been bringing by a 1936 bakery route truck he’s restoring – originally owned by a bakery in So Cal
___________________

Was it a Helms Bakery truck?

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Jake Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 11:12 pm

Dragging this thread back to the original topic…

I think it is premature to call for the end of hybrids in favor of E-REV, either by GM or by the auto industry in general. There is some merit to incremental improvement, and the best “strong” hybrids of today offer substantial mileage gains, often enough to make the price premium worth it. These GM models did not deliver in this area, but a new generation could. “The people” are starting to accept hybrids as a relatively compromise-free way to reduce fuel use. Let’s give them many hybrids to choose from so that even the average Joe may “go green” while the hardcore folks can buy the first couple generations of plug-ins or EVs. I imagine a day when many vehicles are at least mild hybrids, many are strong hybrids, and the most efficient are plug-ins or EVs. Dumping the BAS+ program right now would leave too many eco-conscious potential GM customers out in the cold.

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Eric E Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 12:05 am

The Malibu is a magnificent car. However… the BAS hybrid is pathetic. I new they wouldn’t sell. So did just about everyone except GM.
As far as the BAS+ is concerned… Old people will buy them.

=D~ No Plug. No Sale. No Way.

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Noel Park Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 11:17 am

You guys have said it all. Good riddance.

#86 jeffhre:

We went to a Corvette function at the Petersen Museum some months ago. I swear that the most popular display in the place was the Helms truck. They had the side doors open and let you walk through. You could see the drawers where the donuts and the cream puffs were when we were kids. We nagged our mother with no mercy, LOL.

Of course that was the ’50s, not 1936, so who knows? Brought back a lot of memories though.

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Luke Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

Jake @ 87,

Dumping the BAS+ program right now would leave too many eco-conscious potential GM customers out in the cold.

No. Look at the MPG numbers.

The word “hybrid” is not green-colored magic. Hybrid refers to several types interesting drivetrains that work well in green cars — but, heck, you can even put a hybrid drivetrain in a Tahoe!

A hybrid is also not necessary for a green car. Most people consider the VW TDI series to be green, but the drivetrain is very conventional. The drivetrain (and the entire car) is optimized with a certain quirky German flare, but it’s still a straight-up ICE connected to the wheels by gears/hydraulics and axles.

The green-colored magic that you’re looking for is that “40 mpg” on the EPA sticker in the window. A “50mpg” on that sticker is even better. I can’t think of any circumstances where a mileage in the 30s (such as the Toyota Highlander Hybrid) strikes me as green, for the purposes of marketing.

Of course, actually finding an efficient solution to real-life requirements is vastly more complex than what I’m talking about above, and I readily admit that there are cases where even a Surburban really can be the green solution — such a shuttle for a summer camp where they can fill all of the seats while carrying people over poorly-maintained roads. But I’m trying to explain why most green-minded customers are going for cars like the Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid, Ford Fusion Hybrid, or the Honda Insight over, say, a Chevy Malibu BAS Hybrid. I know it’s arbitrary and that there are diminishing returns, but 34mpg is just plain 3rd tier when it comes to green-marketing.

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Jake Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

#90 Luke

Trust me, I am well aware that “hybrid” is not the be-all and end-all of green transportation, and that some hybrids are really not that green. However, it sounds to me that the new generation hybrid drive concept (BAS+) that will be in 2010-2011 GM hybrids will be more capable of reaching mileage numbers competitive with other hybrids currently out. At least if the 20% mileage gain is to be believed. I agree that the soon-to-be-ditched BAS system is not a good option. But I think the next generation is worth pursuing, even if it doesn’t get 55 mpg or 40 miles of all-electric range. Let’s dump BAS, but let’s not give up on BAS+.

I think it’s worth noting that while you may not think 30 mpg is that green (neither do I), automakers seem to think that the general public does. It is clearly the “magic number” that they’re all trying to beat in their TV ads and such. If they can drag some of their thirstier models up over 30 mpg, and a lot of people buy those models because they feel 30 mpg is green, then I have no problem with that. It’s still a good improvement in mileage.

I’d prefer a VW TDI anyways, because I love VW and I love to drive stick…something that most hybrids are giving up on these days in favor of CVT’s. Maybe clean diesel is something GM should explore for their larger vehicles where a hybrid or electric drive is harder to implement (cost-wise at least).

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Luke Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 5:36 pm

Jake @ 91,

I think it’s worth noting that while you may not think 30 mpg is that green (neither do I), automakers seem to think that the general public does. It is clearly the “magic number” that they’re all trying to beat in their TV ads and such.

I think they’re misjudging this. I guess they have more data then I do — but, even so, it really looks to me like the green-car enthusiasts (like me) are going to go for a “real” hybrid with the best numbers, and the general public (except for the “up yours hippie” market) is going to decide about a hybrid based purely on medium-term economics. The BAS hybrids didn’t seem to meet the needs of either crowd.

I really did love my 2001 VW Jetta GLS TDI. It was a beautiful car, and a real pleasure to drive through the mountains of Southwest Virginia! But, after replacing 5 transmissions over 20k miles and only one year of ownership, I don’t think I’m going to own any VW product unless it’s under the full factory warranty. To be fair, I did buy an automatic, even after reading Oilhammer’s rant about the 01M 4-speed automatic transmission on tdiclub.com. I should have bought the manual (which my preferred transmission in a non-hybrid), but I’m not the only person who drives “my” car these days.

Alas, we sold the Jetta and kept the Prius when we moved into our new house. The Prius matches our needs to a T. And after 100k miles, it’s still on its original transmission. Also, since we don’t take as many road-trips as we used to, and since and mostly drive under 30mph within the town limits, the Prius (with its hatchback) is a much better Midwestern grocery cart. I’d love to own another TDI, but I’m also hoping that the ER-EV will make all of these cars obsolete before my current vehicle wears out. Bummer!

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Luke Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 5:47 pm

I really will need to see the numbers for the BAS+… But, the engineers at Toyota aren’t going to be sitting still while GM develops BAS+…

OTOH, if BAS+ is going to be cheap enough to pay for itself in a couple of years, all of this goes out the window. The same people who pay extra for a better SEER rating on their heat pump would be buying the hybrid then.

I work for a large institution, and real change is a slow and difficult process — regardless of what the institution’s purpose happens to be. I really hope they can pull it off, but it’s still hard to imagine.

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Jake Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 6:48 pm

Yes, I am hoping BAS+ is cheap enough to be a good option for people in terms of medium-term economics, as you said. Who knows, though. GM has some ground to make up, and Toyota, Ford etc. are not resting on their laurels. Voltec does truly seem like the key to GM’s environmental cred (both real and marketing-wise).

Unfortunately the 1999-2002 VW’s turned a lot of people off from the brand forever. I roam tdiclub regularly but I’m not intimately familiar with VW diesels. I know the letters “01M” raise some ire, though! My family has an 03 Jetta wagon (gas, not diesel) with a stick, and it has treated us well so far. And the current generation maintains average reliability, which is a marked improvement. I am in the same place you are regarding E-REV or similar technology making a TDI obsolete, though! I’m some years away from being able to buy my dream car, so it will be interesting to see what the automotive landscape will be at that point.

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koz Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

Seems to me that given where the BAS Malibu (and all BAS models thus far) fit into the market, their gas mileage improvements where not nearly enough to merit $4000 extra. GM said it was a much lower cost hybrid but didn’t reflect this in their pricing. It would have sold fine if they commited to volume (meaining pushed them to into inventory and available for test drives) and kept the premium under $1500. They figured there was a portion of each BAS module’s buyers that would be suckers for the Hybrid badge, but the people that wanted the efficiency of hybrids went elsewhere to get more bang for their buck.

BAS+ could be successful but it won’t offer enough of a mileage boost to garner an outsized Hybrid premium. It will have to office good value on it’s own.

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Victor Says:
June 16th, 2009 at 10:04 am

@9 Luke and @ 91 Jake.

30 MPG is the so called “magic number” because so few cars for sale in the US actually attain that kind of gas mileage. Let’s be honest here. GM states that the have over 30 models that acheive 30 MPG or more. The reality can not be farther from the truth.

Let us take the ‘09 Chevy Malibu for example. GM’s stated MPG is 22 city, 33 Highway with the 2.4L I-4 with a 6 speed auto transmission. That gives a combined average of 27.5 MPG. EPA.

Now lets have some “real world driving”. I rented an ‘09 Malibu I-4, 6-speed auto, for vacation recently and kept track of the mileage for the week. And guess what? I got 21.4 MPG COMBINED.

I am by no means a lead foot or an aggresive driver. Hell on my ‘03 3.8L V-6 4-speed auto Mustang I consistently get 22.3 MPG combined.

GM is all about smoke and mirrors. Marketing. Nothing more and nothing less. The BAS system was and is a joke. It was nothoing more than window dressing so they coould slap a Hybird monkier on the car and say “me too” in riding the Green wave.

GM needs for be Honest about their real world numbers. I always hear from companies that the meet or exceed the goverment standards. GM needs to do better. They have no choice.

And if I hear one more person say “Governement Motors” one more time I’ll have a stoke. GM did this to themselves. And it was GM that went hat in hand to the government. Not the other way around.

If you want the government to bail you out then you have to follow their rules… Pure and simple.

GM and Chrysler have not been running in some Market vaccume. Ford, Toyota, Honda and Hyundai are all doing just fine working in this same enviornment.

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GM Terminates Malibu and Vue Hybrids: Promises Newer Better Hybrids in 2010 and 2011

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