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Lutz Denies Ambivalence About the Volt and…Introducing the World’s First Images of the Volt in Black

June 9th, 2009 | Posted in: Images, Public Opinion

It may be recalled the Washington Post recently published an extensive piece about Bob Lutz and the Volt in which the vice chairman of GM and originator of the Volt concept was described as being “ambivalent” about the Chevy Volt. The story’s painted Lutz as a lover of loud shiny powerful gas guzzlers and that the greening of the auto industry that the Volt represents gave him mixed feelings.

Lutz has taken that author to task in his latest FastLane post. “Let me say this clearly: There is no ambivalence on my part – or on the part of anyone at GM – toward the Chevy Volt. None. Zero,” writes Lutz.

Lutz confirms the Volt program is “the most exciting program I have worked on in my entire career.”

“The Volt can literally change the face of automotive transportation as we know it,” he writes “Who would be ambivalent about that?”

Lutz goes on to say the advent of the Volt and other smaller cars that GM has in the pipeline does not mean the end of performance car. He likens their arrival to a grocery store that first begins to offer organic vegetables, “doesn’t mean it shuts down the meat counter.”

Source (FastLane)

And for your viewing pleasure, the world’s first high resolution images of the Chevy Volt in black are below. Click to get to the high-res versions, and Enjoy!

Posted by: Lyle

176 Responses to “Lutz Denies Ambivalence About the Volt and…Introducing the World’s First Images of the Volt in Black”

andy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

looks awesome i will definitely get my volt in black

First!!!!!!

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statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

I’d say it was the second time actually, lol.
—-
#151 Statik said:
May 13th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

Ok, I have your attention. We now have at the very least, another ’shell’ prototype Volt…because this was let slip in the media releases from the government stooges latest visit from last friday(yes…that is their official title-stooges).

There is no hard shot of it, but you can see it in the foreground….and it is black. I’ve not seen any other completed shell mockups partial or complete in this color.

Enjoy:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/MontgomeryGMDesign03.jpg?download=021285

So what is it? And why haven’t we ever seen it? We keep seeing that lonely, your grandma’s favorite ‘robin’s egg’ blue color, one-off all the time.

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statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

I really like the new shots though.

…I buy all my cars in black
(=

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MickeyD Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

4th!

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Muhammad Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

Sweet.

You can find some shots of the back-side on autoblog:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/09/autoline-daily-provides-first-look-at-production-chevrolet-volt/

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ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

Black, white, blue or polkadot.Bring it on! GO GM! GO VOLT!

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StevePA Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

Am always intrigued by the range of reactions to any one example of automotive styling. Looking at this vehicle head-on or in profile, it is difficult, at least for me, to see how some folks feel it looks the same as Prius or Insight.

While definitely a different look than the concept, in its own way this production version is one very attractive vehicle to this prospective buyer.

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heyIMmike Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:59 pm

TOP TEN!

What version of the Volt is this? Is this a post mule car? Either way, its a sexy looking car!

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George K Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:03 pm

Lutz should be the car czar.

=D~~~~

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jeff j Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:05 pm

Does anybody know what this new Bill , The House on Tuesday approved a “cash for clunkers” bill that aims to boost new auto sales by allowing consumers to turn in their gas-guzzling cars and trucks for vouchers worth up to $4,500 toward more fuel-efficient vehicles.
Do you think you could double down on the Volt , with a crap car and tax brake too. ?????

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Anthony BC Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:06 pm

11th, yes !

Nice photos !

GO EV !!!

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solo Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

This is by FAR the prettiest ECO-car anywhere. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but anybody that thinks the Prius or Insight is better looking needs a trip to the eye doctor.

You could actually pick up chicks in this car.

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statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

#5 Muhammad Says:

Sweet.

You can find some shots of the back-side on autoblog:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/09/autoline-daily-provides-first-look-at-production-chevrolet-volt/
=====================

Interesting, thanks…some good shots.

Funny how autoblog is touting them as a exclusive of the ‘final product design of the Volt’…it is exactly the same model as the ones Lyle has on file for the original prototype (as least as far as I can tell). Only thing that strikes you as different is that you can see the piping down the side better in black.

/black is still excellent…I think they should have shown a black Volt first

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Michael C. Robinson Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

The Volt is not the future of the automobile industry. It is a desperate attempt to create a better hybrid that ignores the law of diminishing returns that currently affects batteries. The Volt can not go very far without burning gasoline or ethanol, both of which are bad for the environment. GM, Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, and Honda would not be pursuing fuel cell vehicles if battery electric was the future. No matter the color, the Volt without a fuel cell is not a solution to the dependency on foreign oil. If solid storage of hydrogen or hydrnol catches on, it’s game over for battery electric cars.

Hydrnol by the way can be made from ethanol which can be produced from cellulose.

The Volt’s battery folks weighs 350 to 400 pounds and the Tesla
Whitestar’s battery weighs 900 pounds. A liquid H2 fuel tank
installed on a Prius weighs 300 pounds and this tank gives
the Prius a 650 mile driving range. A gaseous H2 tank is going
to be lighter. GM’s Sequel with 4th generation fuel cell has a 150
mile driving range, but that’s old technology where GM is cutting
the size of their fuel cell in half and doubling the power. The Honda
FCX Clarity has a 200-240 mile driving range. The Toyota FCHV
fuel cell SUV has a 518 mile driving range.

Someone commented that the market will decide. I would agree with
that, except the U.S. govt. owns a significant share in GM right now and it can dictate to the company what it will pursue. Obama’s 1 million hybrids is annoying and it is a distraction that is taking us away from fuel cell cars. At least Ford, Honda, and Toyota are still independent of the current U.S. government.

Noone has doubled the power output or cut the size in half of
Lithium ION batteries and Lithium is a limited resource where
mining of Lithium is harmful to the environment. It’s not enough
to double the power density of Lithium ION, a seven fold increase
in power density is needed for Lithium ION batteries to compete
with hydrogen tanks for energy stored.

GM seems to be the only company that is trying a 10 year
warranty on an oversized Lithium ION battery.

People argue that energy efficiency is the only factor that affects
what people will buy when it comes to cars. Consider, gasoline
beat battery electric 100 years ago because of range issues.
Fuel cell prototype cars on the road today have superior range
to battery electric cars. Even with a limit of 150 miles, the Chevy
Equinox fuel cell vehicle goes further on clean electric power
than the Chevy Volt hybrid. If the Chevy Equinox fuel cell vehicle
couldn’t be improved upon easily and it was commercialized, it
would still be a better approach to addressing foreign oil dependency than any BEV.

I have a proposal for the federal government. Push a national
10% ammonia campaign and over ride the ethanol mandates. If
gasoline is mixed with 10% ammonia, every car on the road
today should be able to burn that with minor adjustments. If
gasoline has to be mixed with ammonia, more hydrogen has
to be produced. This will create a hydrogen infrastructure
suitable for supporting fuel cell cars. Ammonia, unlike
ethanol, improves gas mileage. When the methods for handling hydrogen for fuel cell cars become standardized, the ammonia mandate can be dropped.

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Stephen, Chicagoland, IL Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

Does anyone else feel strongly that the Chevy bowtie needs to go? I find it blocky, clunky, and old fashioned.

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CDAVIS Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

______________________________________________________
Wow…I’m sort of surprised how good it looks!

Almost looks to classy to be a Chevy….It’s more Cadillac like in looks.
______________________________________________________

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

@jeff j 10

“Do you think you could double down on the Volt , with a crap car and tax brake too. ?????”

Yes you will. But the Cash for clunkers has stalled. No ETA on it. Theoretically you can get your $4500 voucher and go put down on a Volt then the following year you get your $7500. Not exactly double dipping because you don’t get the fed rebate till the following year.
Another question is, can I cash in 2 clunkers?

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bruce g Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:27 pm

#15 Stephen,
I agree, it may be better to remove the faux grill and the badge altogether, put the badge on the side above the wheel arch.
disclaimer..I know nothing about vehicle design

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CDAVIS Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

_____________________________________________________
#12 solo Said:
“…You could actually pick up chicks in this car.”
—–

Yup….even the shaved legs variety!
______________________________________________________

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

More like confused than ambivalent, since performance electric drive provides maximum torque off the line and seamless near linear acceleration, which no gasser can. The organic vegetables of electric drive are also the meat (strange but true that more efficiency gives you more long run performance potential – see F1 KERS or Puegout 908 HY diesel hybrid LeMans racer or Audi R-15 TDI diesel (KERS off-on-off again, who knows), ready to win another 12 hours of Sebring). The arrival of the Volt means that mainstream looks and price true performance efficient cars have indeed arrived. To overextend the analogy, I guess that makes full gassers weak sauce for the same horsepower.

BTW, on the fastlane blog, highway mileage is much less important than city mileage as most miles traveled in the US by retail light vehicle consumers are city miles, and 26 mpg is nothing to brag about. Show me a GM electric with 430 horsepower (that’ll be about 400 foot pounds of torque at the line at 0 rpm, which is what actually matters) and I’ll start to be impressed, cause it’ll also still be super efficient under normal driving behaviors. High efficiency is part of high performance, just ask fighter jet designers.
http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-721.html

Oh yeah, the black Volt looks good. Real good. Kinda like this:

http://www.productioncars.com/gallery.php?car=18531&make=Hyundai&model=Sonata

That’s a huge compliment to GM for mainstreaming this product, by the way. It was the 10th best selling car in the US last month, so go get them.

When’s that Volt coming to my dealer, so I can buy it?

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GM Volt Fan Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:46 pm

14. Michael C. Robinson

I hope to be able to get some sort of hydrogen range extender in a future Chevy Volt type car in the next 10 years or so. The series hybrid (Voltec) architecture is designed with future technologies in mind. It might not too difficult for GM to yank out the internal combustion engine and drop in a hydrogen based range extender. Who knows, maybe we’ll be seeing a “2018 Chevy Volt Hydrogen Edition”.

GM is keeping up with their hydrogen technology research you know. If they can build a relatively inexpensive hydrogen range extender, I’m sure they will … IF there’s a demand for it … and there’s adequate hydrogen fueling stations, etc. That’s a big problem with hydrogen … the infrastructure. The beauty of the 2011 Chevy Volt is that we ALREADY have electric infrastructure if you have a garage with a plug in it … or move to an cutting edge apartment complex with charging stations installed.

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noel park Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:50 pm

I love the bowtie. Keep it. Chevy has to save at least that much of its heritage.

What’s up with the accent stripe/chrome strip down the mirror and along the tops of the doors? Spare me. I guess we’ll have to get the striper to come and black it out with tape the way we did with the window trim on our Impala.

After struggling for 14 years to keep the Impala clean, I’ve had my last black car. It looks great when it’s clean, but it doesn’t stay that way for long. I knew better, but it was THE color in 1995, LOL.

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:58 pm

#14
Michael C. Robinson

The Volt is not the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
____________________
OMG! Did he actually write liquid H2…run for your livessss!!!!!!! Or as Bill Paxton so brilliantly intoned in the movie Alien…”We’re all gonna die!

Seriously Michael C. Robinson in the future, which clearly belongs to the makers of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, just write the following.

Repeated comment 11.

And save yourself some keystrokes!

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:06 pm

@noel park 22

“I’ve had my last black car. It looks great when it’s clean, but it doesn’t stay that way for long.”

I feel you there. That’s why I want the plain ol Grey/Gray, you know what I mean….lol

@jeffhre 23

Bill Paxton (Aliens) – “That’s it man, GAME OVER”.

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Todd Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

Well others posted before I could get here but hasn’t the government spent enough of our tax dollars? Why are they even thinking about cash for clunkers? So why not let your neighbor help pay for your next car, why not! My co-worker who is a die hard liberal was complaining about his house payment. He got himself into an arm loan and didn’t do his research on arms or on taxes. So both went up and his house payment eventually doubled. He maxed out his credit cards and missed a few payments so the interest rate sky rocketed. He owns a big dually which he can’t afford to drive (by the way he bought it because he thought it looked cool – it’s lowered and can’t carry crap) a useless pickup truck.

So he cried to the government how he was cheated on his house, he got government aid. He cried to the mortgage company claiming he’s going to go BK, they refinanced into a low 4.5 fixed rate. He cried to the credit card company who actually told him to go take a hike (good for them) but of course now all of us who actually pay our bills on time will suffer because of the new government regulations. And now I’m sure he’s going to take that big dually and turn it in so we all can help pay for his next vehicle.

What is wrong with America! I pay my bills and I work hard, what do we get – we get to pay for all the dead beats who don’t pay their bills, who cry about how they have been cheated, and who can’t seem to understand that they are the drain on this country.

Oh by the way, this same person had purchased some items at Walmart for his kids. He and his wife took the items home, decided they really didn’t need to give them to the kids so the wife took them back. They had purchased the items on sale. The cashier didn’t notice this and gave them a full price refund. His wife didn’t say anything and walked out with the money. Don’t you just love people with high moral standards!

Tell you what, why doesn’t the government just do everything for me then I don’t have to be responsible for anything.

Enough with the stimulus packages, rebates, tax credits, and high dollar UAW employees. Heck I should just go pickup a clunker for $1000.00 and turn it in so I can get at least $3500.00 more off my Volt!

I’m really tired of this garbage.

By the way Lyle, that black Volt looks really good.

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eightjack Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

Lutz would now like to maintain that he did not previously communicate ambivalence toward the volt. And his defense is?

“The Volt can literally change the face of automotive transportation as we know it,” he writes “Who would be ambivalent about that?”

Who indeed? I guess it would have to be a wrinkly old dinosaur who apparently fails to understand the concept of “staying on message” and yet continues to shoot his mouth off in the media, doing harm to the efforts of his own company. Get a freaking PR consultant Bob,
Every out-of-touch, “crotchety old white man at the country-club” statement that you make reinforces the strong undercurrent of feeling that GM is still run by a bunch of clueless fossils who couldn’t innovate their way out of a gauze pup-tent.

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Adrian Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

thumbs up to #14 MJR. Hydrogen show be the focus of all research money. I don’t have anything against the Volt either. It is just a bridge to the future.

To respond to something said a few days ago, the poll shows 27% of Americans are boycotting GM because fascist government ownership policies. I expect this number to grow to about 30-35% by years end.

Hydrogen, nuclear, and drilling for own oil is the answer for energy independence. Opposing statists like Obama and other politians would set this in motion.

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Dave K. Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:35 pm

The Volt looks good in black. It’s a shame a funky flat license plate has to be bolted to the nose.

Last year I contacted two agencies within the State Of California to ask if the front plate law could be relaxed on low drag electric cars. Never received a reply.

I also asked for State cars to run on EREV systems. I noted less refueling stations and less associated employees to pay. And the low emission nature of the EREV. Mentioned Made In America as well.

yes we can?

=D~

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

@Todd 25

“I pay my bills and I work hard, what do we get – we get to pay for all the dead beats who don’t pay their bills, who cry about how they have been cheated, and who can’t seem to understand that they are the drain on this country.”

That’s funny. I returned a call from our mortgage company stating they are “Reaching out” to those who need help. I went through the motions and was eventually turned down because I was not late on a payment, I was not in default or close to default, CC bills reported no late/slow pay and jointly made too much. Then I got the final letter of “DENIED”.
So, when the Obamination created another plan, they called me again. Wen’t through the same friggin motions and got denied again. WTF?!?!?!?!
Despite our joint income being slashed by 4 days of furlougs and a pending 5% pay cut, still TBD, and property appriased -170K we as good standing paying citizens get screwed beyond anything for being who we are. We’re in a 30yr fixed for pete’s sake.

Yeah, I feel your anger.
So it’s not “Yes we can” it’s “No YOU can not!”
I’m going to go get a beer now.

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Dan Petit Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

With Black, you can now see the sculpted lines far better. You can see that the style and lines make the car visually worth it. These are great lines. The previous silver color displayed left many lines undefined. The lighting here was highly effective.

The photo really makes me feel completely comfortable about the sleek outward image of the Volt, in harmony with what I know to be a breathtaking technological design as well.

This photo makes me feel content about the Volt.

It will be hard for me to choose a color, but, likely whatever comes available would be OK. Knowing what the lines look like now lets me settle on color later. (Although Black is beautiful, a lighter color might work for me better as Black would gather more heat inside I would suspect). Although I would love to be proven wrong about that.

This site has history happening!!

Dan.

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:51 pm

#24
CaptJackSparrow

@jeffhre 23

Bill Paxton (Aliens) – “That’s it man, GAME OVER”.
__________________________

LOL. That was the second movie, right?
____________________

As I sit here in my jet black car, with a black interior, in the high desert foothills overlooking California, I see in the distance, Noel Park’s house and CaptJackSparrow’s trailer paaaar – ouch, oh crap, I burned my hand on the shifter… again!

True story, sort of.

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ClarksonCote Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

#14, #27

What’s with all the pro-hydrogen talk today? It’s a pipe dream.

#14, how can you state range statistics for liquid hydrogen and then say that gaseous hydrogen will be even lighter… Any gaseous hydrogen would be a fraction of the range of the liquid version.

There’s so many issues with hydrogen when it comes to infrastructure and storage, I don’t understand why people think it’s really feasible. It’s always ten years away, and even proponents acknowledge significant barriers to its widespread use.

If we’re going to focus on hydrogen, we might as well stretch it a little further and try to develop a car that runs on fusion or even dark matter.

Just my $0.02

EDIT: Sorry to sound so negative and opinionated, it was not my intention but I’m frustrated at all the money the government has spent on hydrogen development with no progress and less efficiency than BEVs

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solo Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:00 pm

I noticed you can’t see the wiper blades. I hope the production version looks like this. Back in the 70’s many cars featured ‘Hidden wiper blades’ but they went out of style and today you can see the wiper blades, at least partially, on most cars. I would think this would be a big c.d. no no.

The only draw back is in the winter when you sometimes have to open the hood to chisel out the ice to free them up.

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Vincent Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:01 pm

What a difference a color makes on any vehicle.
That looks fantastic. Dump the silver.
Make the first run of Volts any color as long as it’s black.

It sure is easy to throw cheap shots at Rick and say who cares what he said or didn’t say about the Volt…we will never know.

He is lighting expensive Cigars with C notes with his feet in the sand. Does it really matter.

Don’t forget the CONVERJ and build the freaking batteries here in the sates with our people and our bail out money.
Car looks great!

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sparks Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:04 pm

I just read that Cash for Clunkers just passed in the House. However, before we get too worked up about this bill one way or the other, this will be just a one-year program (at least in its current form). Ouch! Even if it takes several months before it passes, it will still expire before the Volt is out in any quantity.

If they extend the program, I like the idea of running out and buying a total piece of S#&T for a few hundred bucks and turning it in for a Volt. However, there is an odd clause to navigate: The car must have been insured for the past year prior to turn-in. Also, it must be at least 8 years old. The latter shouldn’t be too hard to accomplish, but the insurance clause worries me. Does it mean that the person turning in the car must have insured it (i.e., owned it) for a year? Or does it just have to be insured by somebody, anybody, for the past year. Like I said, probably not worth digging into this, since the program will only last one year.

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Schmeltz Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:09 pm

A Volt in Black…. Now you’re talking!!! Sweet.

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

#14 Michael C. Robinson

People argue that energy efficiency is the only factor that affects
what people will buy when it comes to cars. Consider, gasoline
beat battery electric 100 years ago because of range issues.
Fuel cell prototype cars on the road today have superior range
to battery electric cars.
____________________
Interesting point. I believe I read that 100 years ago electric cars were beating or matching gas cars in popularity until Cadillac introduced the electric starter.

As many here have pointed out, fuel cells are electric cars that normally utilize hydrogen reactions catalyzed with rare metals to generate electricity for motive power. It appears that either advanced batteries or fuel cells will be the technology to bring them back.

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

Ditto on the black being too too hot for Texas summer sun.

I’ll take mine white with white interior and whitewall tires (what the?!?).

But I’ll also take mine 3 or 4 years after it is released, maybe a lease return. Unless GM gets their act together and starts making a Voltec SUV and minivan. Then I’ll change my wishlist for sure.

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Texas Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

OK, how many people (including Lutz) pulled out their dictionary to look up the full definition of ambivalence?

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

Texas #39
___________________

Huh!

Oh, my bad just waffling, never mind!
__________________

CS Guy # 38
and with moon wheel covers for aerodynamics – that would be really sharp!

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Texas Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

Oh, that black is beautiful. How about a light colored white or silver for the Texas daytime and that beauty for night cruising? That way the energy from house mounted solar panels can go directly to charging the battery. Pure black on the outside, green on the inside. The new black gold.

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noel park Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:30 pm

#26 eightjack:

Yeah, I said it a long time ago, “Bob Lutz needs a minder.”

BTW, how does he deny all that stuff he said if they are documented direct quotes? Just wondering.

#31 jeffhre:

Yeah, that too, LOL. Doesn’t do much for the AER when you have to run the AC on max all the time. Maybe the solar panel driven fan will pre-cool the car. Not that much though, IMHO. Helps with the heater in the winter though. So maybe it’s a wash.

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:30 pm

41 Texas, “white or silver for the Texas daytime and that beauty for night”

Did anybody see the movie Total Recall where the receptionist is doing her nails, hits her fingernail with a stylus and it changes colors?

Yeah, like that.

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Chris Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

Ever wonder how the Volt will change the ” test drive” You will want to drive it for the full 40 miles to see how an eletric will preform in the real world. Than you are going to want another 20 miles or so to see how the range extender is going to work. That put you at a couple hours in a test drive. I’m not to sure how the dealers are going to like this. I’m also guessing that there will be people lined up to take them out. I only hope that they release them in Canada the same time they are released in the states.

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Jackson Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

No black Volt for me, not in Georgia.

Every summer we hear about some Mother of the Year or teenage babysitter who leaves a child in a parked car with the engine off, only to have it die in oven-like temperatures (sometimes after less than an hour in the blazing sun).

I once saw a locally published recipe for baking bread in a parked car.

Yes, there are black vehicles all over the State, but their A/Cs run from a belt off of (at least) a V6, not a battery.

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Koz Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:45 pm

Black is beautiful. Intgration vehicle?

======================

Mr. Lutz,

Greenlight Converj and minivan/CUV (or small pickup) Voltecs for 2013. Make one as/more powerful and the other one as/more practical than their ICE counterparts. Then we will revisit ambivalence.

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

The Volt definitely looks much better in black. They should use it for all the promo shots and lose the blue one.

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

#43
Chris

Ever wonder how the Volt will change the ” test drive”
______________________

Yeah, I was thinking about that too.

1. They could get really good at judging the power needs and charge them to run a few miles on battery, then it goes to charge sustain.

2. They could have two Volts. One fully charged and one depleted.

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:55 pm

“Lutz goes on to say the advent of the Volt and other smaller cars that GM has in the pipeline does not mean the end of performance car. He likens their arrival to a grocery store that first begins to offer organic vegetables, “doesn’t mean it shuts down the meat counter.”

I repeat my comment on earlier threads that he just doesn’t understand what a game changer the Voltec drive technology is.

Voltec IS the meat. It is also the organic veggies. Everything I’ve seen and heard about cars converted to electric drive as well as the EV-1, RAV4 EV, and the Volt tells me that any performance enthusiast would kill to get an electric car like the Volt. Whenever you have 100% available torque at 0 RPM (and all the way up the RPM band for that matter) you have a serious performance car.

Lutz may not be planning on sizing the battery or electric motor right to make the Volt an EV rocket but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to do economically.

The problem with GM is their lack of vision. They seem to be stuck in the “glory days” where they could put out minor (mostly cosmetic) improvements to the same old schlock vehicles year after year and people still ate it up. Those days are over and they’re never coming back.

GM needs to understand that they have another goose that will continue laying golden eggs in the Voltec drive system. They can squander their lead like they did with every other innovation that they came up with. Or they can grab the ball and run with it.

GM should put Voltec in every vehicle it makes, across all vehicle brands and models. Just size it right for the job and GM will be at the top of the auto industry again.

Continue to view the volt as nothing more than a novelty item to make your behind-the-times lineup of vehicles seem not so stodgy and GM will continue losing market share year after year – just as they have for the last 30 years.

Come on GM! To the victor go the spoils! Get the Voltec in all your vehicles so you can get out of the gutter of the auto industry.

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Jacob Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:57 pm

Behold, the Dodge Stratus in black.

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nataraj Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:02 pm

Q. “The Volt can literally change the face of automotive transportation as we know it,” he writes “Who would be ambivalent about that?”

A. Global Warming Deniers who work at GM.

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DonC Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:14 pm

Some have said that the articles that appear under the Lutz byline aren’t written by him. The article clearly was. The syntax and word use are right on. You can almost hear him talking. The article in the Post he cites is fairly interesting as well.

Black does look nice but, as Texas and Jackson point out, black is not such a great color for sunny hot places. Probably will cost you a few miles of range. White would be better for range and it does hide the dirt. What more could you want?

In other news Ginsburg lifted the stay and the sale of Chrysler assets to Fiat has closed. Also of some interest the bankruptcy court approved cutting the dealers. Probably a few more years of bankruptcy proceedings to sort through all the assets and letting any appeals run their course, but perhaps now even the holdouts can agree we can put a fork in it.

Hopefully the GM bankruptcy will go as smoothly. GM has a lot more moving parts but the bondholder issues are more straightforward.

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tBay Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

Love the black!! Very smooooooth.

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Tom Harwick Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:22 pm

GM, Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, and Honda would not be pursuing fuel cell vehicles if battery electric was the future.
——————————————————————————-
You need to educate yourself on the true state of hydrogen cars:

—GM, Chrysler, Ford, Toyota and Honda are using earmarked grant money to fool around with fuel cell cars they have no intention of commercializing.

—None of these companies have plans to produce hydrogen cars in the 2010-1016 time frame. In other words never.

—Every one of these companies is currently building and selling hybrid cars with batteries. Most have plans for plug-in hybrids in the NEAR TERM

—The Obama admin cut off all funding for hydrogen cars because they do not believe they are or will be practical

—There is a very specific reason why hydrogen cars do not represent the future of affordable family transportation. They cost a million dollars a piece to build.

—Hydrogen has no future as a fuel, because it is not a natural resource, it is a manufactured product. It requires a huge input of energy from fossil fuels or nuclear power to manufacture.

—Auto writers love hydrogen cars. I would too if someone gave me, for free, a million dollar car and the equivalent of $20 a gallon fuel.

Those are just the major show stoppers. There are a lot of other issues with hydrogen:

—In liquid state, it must be kept many hundreds of degree below zero. That takes a huge input of energy, even when the car is parked.

—In gaseous state, its energy density is too low, and it is much to flamable to be a practical motor fuel.

—Hydrogen must be super pure to avoid ruining a fuel cell. You can only get this level of purity at great expense.

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RB Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

#49 CS Guy said
Voltec IS the meat. It is also the organic veggies. Everything I’ve seen and heard about cars converted to electric drive as well as the EV-1, RAV4 EV, and the Volt tells me that any performance enthusiast would kill to get an electric car like the Volt. Whenever you have 100% available torque at 0 RPM (and all the way up the RPM band for that matter) you have a serious performance car.
—————————————————————-

Way back in the beginning, when Lutz was talking about the concept car, he mentioned (did not promise, but mentioned) the possibility of very fast 0-60 times for the Volt. That doesn’t seem to be coming true for the Volt, but I think Lutz understands the possibilities for high performance electric. (The downside is going to be a low number of electric-only miles.)

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RB Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:29 pm

To me the car in the picture looks very sharp. At the same time, in that particular picture there is no perception of car size, so in one’s mind the car grows bigger. The colors that look best are usually thought to be related to size. Most people like small cars better in bright colors, big cars in black or dark. Maybe the Volt will prove to be the exception.

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coffeetime Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:30 pm

I used to own a black Ford Econoline van. A bitch to keep clean, but man did it look sharp all washed and waxed!

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Tom Harwick Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:30 pm

EDIT: Sorry to sound so negative and opinionated, it was not my intention but I’m frustrated at all the money the government has spent on hydrogen development with no progress and less efficiency than BEVs
————————————————————————-
The shame of it is, most of that money was spent by Bush, who worked for many years as an energy executive, but never learned the basic science that teaches that hydrogen is not an energy source.

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

#42 Noel Park

It is very easy to twist quotes, and interpret things people say in ways that they never intended. I went over the article again, and if you just look at the actual quotes, it’s really not that bad. He made the global warming comment a few years ago. Not in the recent interview. He criticizes the Prius. But Toyota is the competition. What do you expect? Toyota criticizes the Volt all the time.

For example:

“When you get out into the marketplace, it’s probably just 5 percent of the public that desperately wants something environmentally sound and is willing to pay a premium for it,” he says. “I would say the East and West Coast intellectual establishment kind of lives in its own world. When you get to the broad American marketplace, excitement is still kind of defined in the way it used to be.”

All he is saying is that he thinks most Americans won’t want to pay a premium for an environmentally friendly car. And that most of those of us who will, live on the east and west coasts. As much as I wish he was wrong, I think he’s right. From what I understand, that’s where most Prius sales are. So, logically, it follows that that’s the where the Volt will sell the best.

And, honestly, he’s in a position to have better access to GM’s marketing research than we are. So, he probably knows what he’s talking about. Yes. I’m hoping that people will become more ecologically aware. And I think it’s happening. But just look at how many single drivers have SUVs, and you can see what we’re up against. The Volt would sell even with $1.00 gasoline. But it would remain a niche car until gas prices went back up.

About the “lives in its own world” comment–I’ve lived in New York my entire life. But I’ve traveled through a lot of the country. And I have friends who aren’t native New Yorkers. And I can tell you he’s right. There are major cultural differences between the coasts and the rest of the US. In fact, having been to Europe, I’d say the French have more in common with the British and the Italians than we do with many people who supposedly live in the same country.

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Exp_EngTech Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:34 pm

After meeting with his Energy Secretary Steven Chu, President Obama has just ordered GM to paint all production Volts WHITE to fight man-made global warming.

Anyone caught repainting their Volt to any other color will be arrested and flogged.

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Vincent Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:42 pm

CHRYSLER FIAT IS A GO!

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Dave K. Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:43 pm

DeLorean natural for the Volt would would be da bomb. How about carbon fiber with thick gel coat?

http://garfwod.250free.com/2020/carbon%20fiber%20exterior.jpg

=D~

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statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

#46 koz said:

Black is beautiful. Intgration vehicle?

Mr. Lutz,

Greenlight Converj and minivan/CUV (or small pickup) Voltecs for 2013. Make one as/more powerful and the other one as/more practical than their ICE counterparts. Then we will revisit ambivalence.
================================

Can’t be a integration vehicle, because it has been around at least since at least the PTFoA meeting in Warron on May 8th, 2009…they were just pretending it didn’t exist until now I guess.

Unfortunately for them, Steve Fecht (a contract photographer for General Motors), accidently put up a partial of it on the media site…and nobody caught it (other than myself I guess), as I mentioned in post #2.

This was the shot:
http://us.tnpv.net/2009/GMC200905/GMC2009050858400_PV.jpg

…and this was the caption that went with it (without mentioned the Volt in the shot):

“Michigan Congresswoman Candice Miller (l to r) and Dr. Ed Montgomery – President Obama’s director of recovery for auto communities and workers – tour the Chevrolet Volt Studio with General Motors Vice Chairman Global Product Development Tom Stephens Friday, May 8, 2009 in Warren, Michigan. Montgomery and representatives from several federal agencies are touring GM facilities and Michigan communities to ensure the full resources of the federal government are reaching Michigan residents who need it most as the auto industry goes through its difficult restructuring. (Photo by Steve Fecht for General Motors) ”

Sidenote: Glad to see Mr. Michael C. Robinson (#14) back randomly pumping the h******* again…missed you for a couple days. Oops. I guess I’m supposed to use k-dawg’s new system, #11.

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Red HHR Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

Today it is…
Any color you want, as long as it is Black!

Actually in the begining you could get a model T in red.
It was when the ramped up the production that they all came in black. the paint would dry faster in black and they did not have to clean their paint guns. (did they have paint guns or did they use mops?) So I am thinking that the Volt will be in Tux black that they are going to make an LOT of them.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:02 pm

Victory Red! Victory Red!

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

#59 LauraM (me)

About the coasts versus the rest of the US–I didn’t mean to imply that we’re not part of the same country. Of course, we are. Yes. There are cultural differences. But the US is founded on its diversity of culture as well as ethnicity.

And, of course people in the mid-west and south care about the environment and reliance on foreign oil. Part of the reason, IMHO, why there are so many more hybrids on the coasts, is because, statistically, people on the coast earn more. So more of us can afford to pay the premium for a hybrid.

ETA: I’m sorry. I forgot–I guess this whole thing would fall under #6?

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JEC Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

“He likens their arrival to a grocery store that first begins to offer organic vegetables, “doesn’t mean it shuts down the meat counter.”

=======================================================
Who wants to place a bet, that Bob is NOT a vegatarian!

Boy, Bob, you try to defend your past stance, then go right ahead, and basically restate your stance that the Hybrid market is just a small, specialty offering.

Not that it matters either way to me. Bob just cracks me up

BTW: Agreed. Black makes the Volt look so much better. Almost ashame they did not just put this out at the beginning. Would have muffled a lot of us critics, when they re-designed the concept (well, not totally, but maybe somewhat)

Michael R. nice to hear from you again. Thought maybe you blew your self up, trying to make liquid hydrogen. Be careful you do not freeze off your naughty bits, with that stuff!

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mikeinatl. Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:34 pm

It seems that almost every Prius I see has all kinds of Save the Earth bumper stickers all over it. Such folks revel in being conspicuous environmentalists. And the bizarre looking Prius is their biggest “sticker” of all.

The Volt, a very attractive “normal” looking car is going to upset this strategy. Soon you won’t have to drive around in an odd-ball econo-tird to dramatically reduce gasoline use, cut pollution and reduce Americans dependance on foreign oil.

And then there will be a new “cool” way to get around.

What will all those Prius folks do then?

(Volt is WAY to pretty to put bumper stickers on, if thats what you’re thinking.)

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me here Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:15 pm

how about black rims?

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kdawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:32 pm

44. Chris Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:36 pm .Ever wonder how the Volt will change the ” test drive” You will want to drive it for the full 40 miles to see how an eletric will preform in the real world. Than you are going to want another 20 miles or so to see how the range extender is going to work. That put you at a couple hours in a test drive. I’m not to sure how the dealers are going to like this.

—————————

What car company was it that would let you borrow the car for a day before you bought it?

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kdawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:39 pm

59 LauraM
All he is saying is that he thinks most Americans won’t want to pay a premium for an environmentally friendly car. And that most of those of us who will, live on the east and west coasts. As much as I wish he was wrong, I think he’s right. From what I understand, that’s where most Prius sales are.
——————-

Regarding Prius sales, doesn’t most of the population live on the coasts, therefore more would be sold there? Wouldn’t a better Prius sales stat would be: where does it have the highest percentage of new car sales? Maybe that is still the coasts. Just thinking out loud. It would be nice to know the car-sales demographics.

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LazP Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

#14
Michael C. Robinson
“Volt is not The Future”
———————————————-
Others probably commented on this earlier. But here is mine.

Your pie-in-the-sky technologies won’t likely be available in the next 20 years.!! You try to compete against the existing petroleum infrastructure with many trillion not billion dollars. Who will have the money for this initial investment especially after this recession. This on the other hand does not apply to the electrification of transportation which does not need new but extended infrastructure. As far as range is concerned I assume you have not been at this web site very long otherwise you would not have made some of those comments. Anyway just read below:
I hope you become better informed than Dave Letterman,who had to apologize recently. for his ignorant comments about the Volt.

Eighty per cent of the population was estimated to need under 40 miles of daily driving. For these folks the gasoline milage is infinite ( O gasoline used). Of the 80% estimate about 30 to 40% are home owners with garages.(Overnight recharge.) This large population can be served with 0 infrastructure cost Match this with your Hydrogen and other mega billion or trillion dollar investment needed. Your hydrogen and other exotic substitutes may be the future but only a very far out future. Volt is the true transformational vehicle short term with gasoline as the backup with its already existing infrastructure.
The success of this program obviously depend on
a) GM-s survival
b) Reasonable cost of the car with adequate government subsidy.

Additionally I would like to see GM also offer a lower priced Volt by using fewer battery cells to provide an electric range of less than 40 miles ( say 20 to 30 mile) for those who drive less than 40 daily miles, since the battery cost is one of the major factors in the high price of the Volt.

I continue maintain that the range extender does not need to anything other than conventional gasoline. It already exists and is very cheap when considerd only as a backup fuel. Again talking about short term development. Again the optimum market for the Volt is as stated earlier.
Anyone who seriously has to consider the cost of the backup fuel will probably will not be the early customers.

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Shaft Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:48 pm

Not sure if someone has already posted this recent GM Fastlane blog. It is fascinating and reveals lots of new Volt and battery tidbits:
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/06/live_blogging_from_gm_advanced_technology_event.html

The interviews with Bob Kruse and Frank Weber are particulary good, as are the video presentations by the battery lab personnel.

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GXT Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:02 am

Two-mode Vue cancelled. Likely in Equinox in 2011.
http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?showtopic=34335

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eightjack Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:06 am

#66 LauraM

“About the coasts versus the rest of the US–I didn’t mean to imply that we’re not part of the same country. Of course, we are. Yes. There are cultural differences. But the US is founded on its diversity of culture …. Part of the reason, IMHO, why there are so many more hybrids on the coasts, is because, statistically, people on the coast earn more. So more of us can afford to pay the premium for a hybrid.”

In Minneapolis (the midwest, for you New Yorkers)Toyota dealers have been unable to keep the Prius in stock since the day the first version went on sale. The wait continues to be as much as ten months. Thanks for the pat on the head, though. It’s just that sort of attitude that fosters love and admiration between our two peoples.

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Shaft Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:15 am

The link in 73 has Frank Weber saying the following:
1. The battery is designed to last for 10 years or 150,000 miles. We are only using half of the available battery energy for the 40 miles to protect its life. When the batteries vehicle life is done, they can be reused since they are still very capable of powering all kinds of stationary applications, so the total battery life could be 20+ years.
2. … the combustion engine is only there to generate additional electricity, which means we can use the engine differently from a normal car. The engine will run quieter than it does in a normal car because we’ve decoupled the accelerator paddle. I should also say, there is some engine noise you will here, but it’s minimal and the vehicle continues to behave exactly the same as if you were in pure EV mode.
3. (answering a question about cold weather starts) The normal procedure is driving the car during the day and plug-in at night. Since the battery is a fully insulated pack, you can expect that even on a cold morning, you would be able to drive the Volt in EV mode. There might be situations, however, where you have no chance to plug-in like parking your car at an airport, and here the range-extender will be a helpful feature because you can start driving the car with the engine and after it runs for a few minutes, it will automatically switch back to pure electric. Again, no range anxiety.
4. Since you only want to generate as much electricity with the engine as you need, you would want to run the engine at various RPM levels (depending on your loads) because you want to arrive home with an empty battery to get cheap electricity from the grid. The vehicle is always performing consistently, with or without engine, and therefore will be unoticeable to the driver.
5. We haven’t disclosed the size of the fuel tank yet, but you can expect it to be between 6-10 gallons.
6. The concept in Generation II is not going to change, up to 40 miles pure electric plus extended-range for total of more than 300 miles. You can expect, however, that it will be achieved at a much lower cost level, and therefore, at a much lower price to the consumer. We are already working on the second generation battery and getting the same 40 miles out of a battery pack that is half the size, half the price is ambitious, but not impossible.
7. The engine has 53 kW and the generator is sized accordingly.
8. (answering a question about only using 50% of the battery capacity) We are just at the beginning of the evolution of cell technology, therefore cell chemistries in gen II will be different. You should expect with the same battery life (10 years, 150,000 mile) a higher discharge window.
9. The on-board charger is flexible to use 120v or 240v. At 240v, the charge time is 2.5 hours, which will be sufficient for most of your overnight charging or if you need to charge on the fly. The system, however, is capable of being charged within 15 minutes, but this would require a charger infrastructure supporting it.

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Shaft Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:30 am

The link in 73 has Bob Kruse saying the following:

1. Together with LG Chem, we have lots of experience with this chemistry. Early life testing is very positive. The lab is designed to accelerate 10 years of life into a 2-year test window. GM has developed significant intellectual property around usage and usage profiles to ensure life. We’ve also taken a relativel conservative approach by having a 16 kWh battery that we use 8 kWh for the 40 miles of electric range.

2. We’re not revealing battery costs at this point and time, but we’re substantially below the $1,000 per kWh that is widely reported.

3. We have significant layers of safety built into the Volt, starting at the cell level with the separator. The Volt exceeds all federal motor safety standards and GM’s internal requirements. We have sophisticated control systems to monitor the in-use performance of the battery and can adapt.

4. There are several thermal loops in the vehicle, one of which is for the battery. We can heat the battery in the winter and cool it in the summer. The thermal system is actually quite ingenious and I am anxious to share its technical elegance as we get closer to the Volt launch. It’s a story unto itself.

5. … it will be flex-fuel capable to run on E85 ethanol or gasoline or any combination of the two at launch. The Voltec system is configured to allow us to replace the internal combustion engine/generator with a fuel cell or a diesel generator system if so desired. However, diesel is a very expensive technology unto itself especially give emissions considerations, and coupled with vehicle electrification adds even more cost.

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:37 am

#71 kdawg

You’re right, hybrids as a percentage of new cars sold is probably a more accurate number in terms of population trends. Although a car company is only going to care about raw numbers of new hybrids sold–and for that California wins hands down. The good news is that the rest of the country seems to be catching up. And Texas is up there in the top ten.

http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-sales-dashboard/march-2009-dashboard-did-hybrid-sales-bottom-out-25712.html

But, I did a little investigating, and, you’re right, if you look at hybrids as a percentage of vehicle registrations, the picture changes. DC leads, followed by California, and the rest of the West Coast, but Colorado beats the rest of the East Coast.

http://www.polk.com/knowledge/pv07/

Also interesting, the picture changes if you go back to 2006 . The coasts dominate (along with Texas, which was third in hybrid sales).

http://www.hybridcars.com/market-dashboard/feb07-regional.html

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jeffhre Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:47 am

LauraM

The south along with Texas is coastal. I wanted to say a tad more but moderation got the best of me, in a strictly technological sense, so to speak.

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jeffhre Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:49 am

#75
eightjack

#66 LauraM

Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio have what might be call inter-coasts.

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jeffhre Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:52 am

eightjack

I think the perception of affordability goes to values more than simply costs. For example, someone in the mid west may have much lower expenses, than someone on the coasts, especially housing and insurance costs, and even with a smaller income may end up having more discretionary funds.

Yet Prius sales seem to be concentrated more in certain areas. And rich is rich whether in Omaha or on the coasts. Well actually rich in Omaha is really, really rich!

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Gary Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:36 am

I’m going against the tide here to say that I’m not crazy about the Volt in Black. The contrasting dark gray cladding along the bottom of the car and the black treatment under the windows are lost when the car is painted black.

It just looks plain to me. Maybe this is a bad photo, sort of like the first production Volt photos with the bad lighting that made their way onto the web and people went “ewwww”.

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:38 am

#75 eightjack

I really shouldn’t have brought up the differences between New York versus the mid-west. I’m sorry I did. I only added an explanation because it was too late to delete it. And I’m truly sorry if I offended you.

The original comment was meant to explain Bob Lutz’s original comment that “we live in our own world.” Which was an insult directed at me, actually. Or, well, people who live on the coasts. And I was trying to look at it from his point of view.

We do have cultural differences. Although it might be more of a big city versus rural area thing. I wouldn’t know. But my friends from out of town say that New York is very different from the rest of the country. And so do my cousins in Denver and Phoenix. I have never been to Minneapolis. So, I don’t know if the culture is similar to New York. (Chicago’s is although it has a definite mid-western feel.) But just because we’re different doesn’t mean that I think we’re somehow better. Believe me, New York City has problems. Lots of them.

I’m also certainly not in a position to know if cultural translates into more Prius sales. We certainly have our share of SUVs in New York City–which is bizarre given the parking situation. I was just going by what Lutz said. I assumed he was in a position to know. I didn’t know that they weren’t available in the mid-west until recently. And apparently, Colorado has more hybrids per vehicle registration than any place on the East Coast except DC. If it’s a competition, the East Coast didn’t seem to do too well.

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Guy Incognito Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:51 am

Bob Lutz Says:
“The Volt can literally change the face of automotive transportation as we know it”
Well if that’s the case Bob, then why is’nt it being advertised as such?

Talk about ambivalence, why are’nt we seeing massive amounts of advertising for the Volt?

=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:54 am

jeffhre

I really shouldn’t have generalized in the first place about “coasts.” I was just following Lutz. They’re really irrelevant. My impression is that Savannah and New York are probably more culturally distinct than Chicago and New York. Or even Denver and New York. And LA is certainly different from San Francisco.

Again, I’m sorry I brought it up. I apologize.

I agree that people on the East Coast (NYC especially) have more income, but a much higher cost of living. A 1100 square foot two-bedroom apartment is $3000 a month for rent (minimum), and if you want to buy it, you’re probably looking at $1,000,000 plus $2000 a month maintenance. If I wanted to buy a car, I’d have to spend $500 a month for a garage. And if I wanted to drive it anywhere in the city, I’d generally have to spend another $20 (minimum) to park it.

So, it’s not that we value the hybrids more, or that we have higher incomes. It’s just that the dollar goes further in the rest of the country, so the opportunity costs of the hybrid are higher. It’s almost like we have a “better” exchange rate. (Although that’s a very flawed analogy.)

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Michael C. Robinson Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:57 am

The major auto makers: Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chrysler, and GM
are trying to commercialize fuel cell vehicles by 2015 and the technology needed to do that already exists. Hydrnol is the
solution to the hydrogen infrastructure problem and hydrogen
can be produced using cellulosic ethanol.

Fuel prices are going to go back up to $3 a gallon soon because
no new supplies of OIL have come on line and there are no new refineries.

How to make an affordable and durable fuel cell has been solved, you use nano structured carbon electrodes. Hydrogen can be
produced from cellulosic ethanol along with hydrnol, a hydrogen
carrier. Using algae grown off of the CO2 emitted by coal plants,
hydrogen production can be ramped up. Hydrogen coupled with
a stable, safe, and easily reformed hydrogen carrier plus fuel
cells is the future of transportation.

We can’t wait till 2050 to mass produce fuel cell cars and build a
hydrogen infrastructure. Peak OIL has come and it has passed.
Even if we could go 100 years on the OIL that’s left in the world,
the environmental devastation would wipe out the whole entire
human race. Ocean levels are on the rise now. The polar bear
is facing extinction because of ice melt. A large reservoir of methane gas is on the verge of bubbling out of the ocean into the atmosphere. Catastrophic storms due to global warming like the one that wiped out New Orleans are a reality today. If we want to prevent future storms, we need to stop emitting CO2 and methane into the atmosphere. For methane, we need to use it. Concerning
CO2, we need to grow algae off of it to produce bio-fuels and
hydrogen.

We can’t afford to wait any longer if we intend to preserve our
quality of life. Kennedy said 10 years to the moon and we did
it. It’s high time that Obama says 10 years to a hydrogen
economy and high time that he restore funding.

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Keith Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 3:38 am

Just bring out the Cruze EV with a 150 mile range and forget all about this overpriced Volt 40 mile EV (with a range extender)

Just put a bigger motor in the Cruze EV for better efficiency and more torque and make it a street legal racer .

After all a range of 150 miles will do most people for getting back and forth to work and only plug it in on weekends .

Black sucks . Candy Apple red looks nice though so does Jade Green and White .

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Harrier1970 Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 5:58 am

59 LauraM
[regarding Mr. Lutz and his statement about how different the East and West coast of the US are compared to the 'rest of America']

“There are major cultural differences between the coasts and the rest of the US. In fact, having been to Europe, I’d say the French have more in common with the British and the Italians than we do with many people who supposedly live in the same country.”

Interesting statements, but I would say that the east and west coast have more in common with Europe and the rest of the world than they do with those in “the rest of the US” [who make up a statistically significant minority of the US population]. What is this myth that we all want to wear a cowboy hat and drive trucks? When you work on a farm, that is seriously what you need to run the farm. You are outside and you have to haul stuff from one place to another. When you live in a city or the suburbs… let’s ust say that you would stand out in most states.

GM needs to build a car with worldwide appeal, and the people who live on the coasts (the majority of all Americans) want to buy that same product has worldwide appeal.

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BillR Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 6:10 am

LauraM,

Here’s a story regarding the difference between some various areas of the country.

A company is soliciting bids for a new fence around their property. The first bidder from Texas carefully walks the property and takes all the dimesions. He comes back and says “We do a lot of these jobs, so I can get the material at a discount. I have a non-union crew, so I can bid the job at $100,000.”

The next contractor is from Chicago. He takes all the dimensions and states “I have a unionized workforce and don’t get as much business as the big contractors, so I usually pay more for materials. My price is $125,000.”

The third bidder is from New York. He comes in, doesn’t walk the property or take any dimensions. He says “I’ll do the job for $200,000.” The customer is confused, and asks “How do you come up with that price, you didn’t even measure the perimeter?”

“Easy”, says the guy from New York, “Fifty grand for you, fifty grand for me, and we’ll hire the guy from Texas to do the job!”

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RB Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 6:10 am

Quoted from the previous Lutz thread
——————-
RB Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
This post is a great one. Thanks Lyle.
1) The headline says “GM Ambivalent”
2) The post quotes Lutz as saying “Producing the car he feels is an absolutely necessity for GM. “We’re talking about our image here — about remaking GM; it is essential to get this done,” says Lutz. “We can’t make any mistakes with the Volt.”
The editorial statement (1) conflicts with the actual quotation (2). There is no ambivalence in Lutz’s comments.
—————————————————-

Lutz’s position has been consistent from the start. The headlines were wrong.
/statik does this, so we can too

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RB Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 6:31 am

#71 kdawg says
Regarding Prius sales, doesn’t most of the population live on the coasts, therefore more would be sold there
—————————————————————

That’s certainly true in the minds of the people living on the coasts.

Doing it by the numbers, there are big populations along the coasts certainly. But “most of the people”? Please. It’s true only if one leaves out cities such as Atlanta, Charlotte, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Las Vegas etc and of course all those “minor” smaller places (Milwaukee, Memphis, Omaha etc) that have no existence in the minds of the coastal intellectual elites.

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RB Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 6:40 am

#87 Harrier1970 said
Interesting statements, but I would say that the east and west coast have more in common with Europe and the rest of the world than they do with those in “the rest of the US” [who make up a statistically significant minority of the US population].
—————————————————————-

Come on now, there is some parochialism here amongst the intellectual elite.

In their disconnectedness from all things European, just how did “Charlotte” get that name?

And on “make up a statistically significant minority of the US population” do have any numbers for us, or is this just word play?

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Jim I Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 7:07 am

All I know is that this hick from Youngstown, OH wants a Volt. The only coastline we see here is on TV or the Mahoning river!

Sorry Laura, couldn’t resist!!!! But don’t worry. We will forgive you in a few days!

But my Volt won’t be in black………….. I want it in the same Medium Blue Metallic as my 1973 Ford Mustang Mach 1.

http://www.svs.com/zim/mustang/images/73-3D.jpg

Bummer about the Saturn Vue. We had planned on that being the wife’s next vehicle!

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jbfalaska Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 7:11 am

Hardly a green issue of any sort to me. This country could save money if the government gave a cash voucher to 100% fund Volts in every garage. Just need to look at how much our lack of policies has cost. We pay sheikdoms who hate our way of life more than $500,000,000,000.00 every year to subsidize terrorists and keep us addicted to oil.

No thanks – this military retiree has no qualms about a pittance subsidy to help end the greatest threat to our country – OIL

Chevy Volt: American-made, American-FUELED.

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Dan Petit Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 7:21 am

A friend of mine who was on the NASA astronaut selection committee way back in the ’80’s was describing the various aspects of the Shuttle while I was diagnosing one of his vehicles.

I had asked my friend Bob why the Shuttle needed to land in only two places on the planet with regard to approach distance, yet, something like a Harrier could land vertically.

Bob said “The Harrier is a gas hog, and uses lots of fuel to do that”.

It seems that corporate decision-making market-wise can easily be swayed by the personal preferences at the top, as to what high level management wants as individuals.

This happens everywhere, and, wrong marketing decisions to not accommodate the extremely-well-though-out and critically-valid complaints by highly committed and respected individuals involved with the marketing of

*any*

given product is just plain dysfunctional management,

and, that is what ought to be viewed by shareholders as cause for demotion or termination.

All people are your perspective customers. Contempt for any is contempt for all. If it is mathematically possible to know everyone else on the planet through as few as just five (5) relationships. There is not any such thing as a secret if you do not possess the deepest respect for ANYONE who is a potential customer.

This means that any perception that people on the east coast and the west coast are not as worthy to be a customer to the slightest extent whatsoever, somehow that perception and lack of energy easily telegraphs globally by upper management to the globe

Not even being casually-involved with those who do in fact deeply respect the customer’s needs globally, is the biggest mistake anyone in marketing can make.

One example currently of this is a discount auto parts store that tapes two grease packets onto each of its automotive batteries for sale (to recover battery contract costs). They are setting up an unacceptable portion of everyone that sees those to mistakenly apply grease between the contact surfaces and blow out software.

The one I diagnosed yesterday, which two local Ford dealers (good people work there) could not determine the cause of repeated software damages after they reflashed the PCM’s.
The software became damaged again and again, costing that customer 1,600 bucks,

and it was still not fixed.

Not until I was called in, and, scanned and found what I’ve seen 27 times to date.
Diagnosis? Grease between the posts and clamps of an Autozone battery.

I’ve seen this 27 times in the last 6 months because Autozone upper management re-categorizes this as “So, this is just a mis-application[sic] of the grease-packet product”.

Just having non-battery customers in there seeing this is the same as shouting “fire” in a not-so-crowded theater, because many of them will make the same mistake for just the viewing of those grease packets, and use any sort of grease around the garage the next time they think they ought to replace the battery.

It is ALWAYS ONLY Autozone batteries where the software is blown out because of this. Prove it?

******************
ABSOLUTELY.
******************
Just let me know how many examples you would like documentation for. I have repeatedly told them about this, so they have no excuse.

People are getting seriously harmed by closed-minded-marketers.
Ultimately closed-minded-marketers harm their own interests.

This site graciously allows me to reveal this to you, and, I take full accounting and responsibility (and credit) for whatever Autozone has to say to me. They have my number.

The customer (you) are to be protected as best I can.

Dan Petit
Petit Technical Services
ASE L-1 Advanced Systems
Educator.

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Jim in PA Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 7:30 am

#86 Keith Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 3:38 am
Just bring out the Cruze EV with a 150 mile range and forget all about this overpriced Volt 40 mile EV (with a range extender)

—

Keith, You don’t seem to understand that the largest cost component in the Volt is the battery. Getting a 150 mile EV Cruze would require a battery more than 3X the size (and cost) of the Volt’s. The estimated battery cost is $7500 or so for the Volt, so the EV Cruze you suggest would have a $22,500 battery. By comparison, the engine/generator range extender in the Volt is maybe $5,000, which greatly reduces the overall cost of the car compared to using a larger battery for greater range. This is why GM is brilliant for pursuing a range extender approach, and why (by contrast) the all-electric Teslas will always be out of everyone’s price range.

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Guido Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 7:33 am

eightjack Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Lutz would now like to maintain that he did not previously communicate ambivalence toward the volt. And his defense is?

“The Volt can literally change the face of automotive transportation as we know it,” he writes “Who would be ambivalent about that?”

Who indeed? I guess it would have to be a wrinkly old dinosaur who apparently fails to understand the concept of “staying on message” and yet continues to shoot his mouth off in the media, doing harm to the efforts of his own company. Get a freaking PR consultant Bob,
Every out-of-touch, “crotchety old white man at the country-club” statement that you make reinforces the strong undercurrent of feeling that GM is still run by a bunch of clueless fossils who couldn’t innovate their way out of a gauze pup-tent.
———–
Chill, chump ! I think this poster is “Charlie H.” – obviously he has some anger-management issues.

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beachliving Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 7:59 am

97th … Oh that’s right there is a number to the left here..It’s like those speed traps that have a radar… I have the same thing in my car… It’s called a speedometer…:)

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Shaft Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:26 am

77-79-Lyle, Sorry about the duplication. I submitted it multiple times because they did not seem to be taking. I could not see the comments after refreshing.

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Herm Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:28 am

#95 Jim in PA Says:

Keith, You don’t seem to understand that the largest cost component in the Volt is the battery.
…………………………………………..

LG let slip that the cells cost $8k, and GM let slip that is 70% of the total cost of the pack, so that is $11.5k.. if we assume pack assembly is about the same for a bigger pack, then a 150 mile pack would cost $33.5k and also weigh a lot. You can see we need cheaper batteries or maybe batteries that can be used nearly to 100%.

The Volt is based on the basic platform of a Cruze so what would be saved by just adding batteries and motor to a Cruze?

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Van Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:29 am

I am so looking forward to next season’s NCIS, with Special Agent Gibbs driving fast in a black Volt, instead of a Dodge Charger. Even those strange folks who live in “fly over land” might start thinking about the superior performance of an electric drive.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:33 am

Hey,
Well, I’m the friendly stranger in the black sedan.
Won’tcha hop inside my car?
I got pictures, candy, I’m a loveable man.
I’m gonna take you to the nearest star…
I’m your vehicle, baby!
Take you anywhere you wanna go!

(just a suggestion for a TV commercial with that Black VOLT)

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Larry McFall Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:42 am

It looks as good as I would have expected it to. Bob is right, the Volt project is a program to get excitied about and if it is a tremendous success, GM will float toward the concept because it will be their money maker.

After fielding the first models, then the technology is open for tremendous improvements. However, VOLTEC is key word for today.

Keep up the good work Bob! It sure is starting to look like real true GM committment to me.

(Quote)
Allah Akbar Jihad Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:46 am

Glad to here that Voltec will not take over everything at GM. If I had to bet, I would say that the Chevy Cruze will outsell the Volt by a mile. If it gets 45 mpg it will be twice as cost effective as a Volt. You don’t have to be a mathematician to figure this out. The Volt should stay a niche vehicle its entire lifetime, however, it will most likely spawn some much better Voltec based vehicles down the road.

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Marty McFly Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:49 am

I am putting my money on the Tesla model S. It looks like what the Volt should have been. Oh well, maybe next time Chevy.

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k-dawg Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 8:59 am

77 LauraM thanks for the links

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Van Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:00 am

Off Topic

I see that a conversion company has converted a Prius so it can do 70 MPH in EV mode. One day, after November 2010, I expect we will see conversions of the Volt that extend its AER.

Here is the link to the PHEV-20 Prius that costs about $35,000 including a new car and conversion.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/picc-20090610.html#more

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k-dawg Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:03 am

Harrier1970, LauraM, and whoever else

I don’t think its good idea to label people/cultures in general. There’s lots of urban cowboys, and greenies in rural areas too.

RB: I dont have any numbers on the coastal populations. I guess we need to define coast too. Would that be the entire state of California?

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EVO Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:08 am

@ Harrier 1970 #87
“When you work on a farm, that is seriously what you need to run the farm. You are outside and you have to haul stuff from one place to another.”

No, this is what you need (and a tractor. Forget about a truck – useless waste of money), proper heavy hauling equipment:
http://www.mhwmagazine.co.uk/news-item.asp?id=4348

It can easily lift a Hummer and It uses Prius drivetrain technology. Yes, I know they are usually all electric.

BTW, genuinely effective stock herders don’t wear cowboy hats or boots, don’t use horses and don’t drive pickup trucks. Amateur hobby poseurs do.

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carcus1 Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:13 am

The fastlane blogging link provided the biggest chunk of positive info we’ve heard for quite a while. Let’s hope it’s all true.

Weber says:

- Batteries are good for 10 years/150,000 miles
- Batteries could have service life to 20+ years
- ICE will run quieter than in a normal car
- Car performance in generator mode is exactly the same as EV mode
- Gen ii batteries will be 1/2 the size, 1/2 the price is not impossible
- Recharge time is 2.5 hours on 240v, it could handle a 15 minute charge if enough charging power was made available
- Gas tank will be between 6 and 10 gallons for an additional 260+ miles range

Bob Kruse:
- battery costs are substantially below $1,000/kwh

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/06/live_blogging_from_gm_advanced_technology_event.html

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ThombDBhomb Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:16 am

#59 LauraM
Your effort to give Lutz the benefit of the doubt seems respectful. But, to me, Lutz’s quote isn’t as innocent as you suggest. He talks about the “East and West Coast intellectual establishment,” which seems like conservative-speak. It is not so much a geographic reference as it is a political reference. As we have seen on this blog, Volt enthusiasts come from all parts of the US.

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Van Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:19 am

Off Topic

Is Fritz gone, replaced by Whitacre? Do we need to reconfirm the Volt is not on the chopping block?

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:29 am

After reading Bob Lutz’s comments in the FastLane Blog, I feel he defended himself very well. It is too bad someone has to continually defend themselves against attacks by the media. It would not be so bad if the attacks held any truth, but as with many of the media stories today they are intended to serve the author’s prejudices and dislikes. Same for coverage of many of today’s national, state and local events. That is why I canceled my newspaper subscription about 5 years ago and have not regretted it since. I got fed up with paying to be insulted every time I opened the paper. Same with some magazine subscriptions I used to have. I sympathize with Bob Lutz and I agree with him about the Volt. It is a game changer. And the new Camaro is a beautiful car. I just want the convertible version to get on the market so I can take a look at it. Maybe it will be enough to convince me to buy a vehicle from the new government motors. It will be worth a try, I suppose.

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MarkinWI Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:32 am

Chrysler bankruptcy moving forward.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/supreme-court-lifts-stay-on-chrysler-sale-to-fiat-200969201100

Regarding all the coastal commentary, our local media has reported that my city has the highest per capita ownership of the Pruis of any place in the U.S.A. So at least as it really matters to this site, the coastal claim doesn’t hold much water.

In other ways, are there differences? Sure. I’m sure we could all slander other parts of the country for hours. But having traveled around the U.S. a bit (and my wife having traveled around the U.S. very extensively) I think most of the problem is the stereotypes that we have of each other. Like all stereotypes, there is a grain of truth, and a lot of %&^# wrapped around. it.

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kent beuchert Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:34 am

One wonders about the job fit when hiring a telecommunications guy to run an auto business. On the other hand, you need someone who isn’t frightened by the approaching–irrelevance UAW and can start screwing those whove destoryed GM, rather than the tens of thousands of dealers and mechanics who were supporting the company.When big campaign contributions are involved, we all can see exactly who the Prez allows to keep their jobs and phoney baloney salaries and who is fired.

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J. Muchagrove Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:36 am

I’ve also owned my final black car. Too hard to keep clean and looking good. But man what a looker when it was clean and shiny! Sell me my Volt in a nice dark midnight blue or deep emerald green.

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k-dawg Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:43 am

kent beuchert Says:
One wonders about the job fit when hiring a telecommunications guy to run an auto business.
————

It will be great. After 2 years you can upgrade your Volt for free, but you have to sign up for their OnStar contract

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k-dawg Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:44 am

@ 115 J. Muchagrove
————
Once you go black…
(eh.. sorrry)

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Starcast Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:47 am

k-dawg Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Harrier1970, LauraM, and whoever else

“I don’t think its good idea to label people/cultures in general. There’s lots of urban cowboys, and greenies in rural areas too.

RB: I dont have any numbers on the coastal populations. I guess we need to define coast too. Would that be the entire state of California?”

Here In Michigan I think we have about as much “Coast” as anyone.
And ours has no nasty salt! :>)

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RB Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:52 am

#107 k-dawg said (to me)
RB: I dont have any numbers on the coastal populations. I guess we need to define coast too. Would that be the entire state of California?
————————————————–

The census bureau defines the percentage of US residents who live near the coast as 55%. Their main concern is hurricane flooding, so they count all counties as coastal if 15% or more of their land area is in a watershed that empties into a coastal area. This manner of counting results in the “coastal” designation including many counties that are far inland, e.g. most of California whether coastal or not, so it gives a higher percentage than would be found in counties that have coastlines.

In relation to the discussion here, presumably the portion of the 55% that lives in the southern states on the Atlantic or the Gulf states, e.g. the Carolinas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas, also should be excluded from East-West coastal elites, as, culturally speaking, they live in a different world.

My understanding of GM’s plans for the Volt are that it will be sold in CA and DC, with scattered deliveries elsewhere. That plan obviously envisions making deliveries to the coastal elites, pretty much exclusively.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:57 am

Wow! busy thread today!

In 20 years a fuel cell might be a good alternative but not yet.

The black does look good but I’ll get the silver/blue! Way too hard to keep clean and cool.

I’m going to stay out of the coastal debate. It takes 12 hours to drive to the pacific from here and about 50 hours to the Atlantic so it’s obvious which area I’m in! (don’t know how long it would take to get to the arctic ocean though…)

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k-dawg Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:57 am

Starcast, i’m a fellow Michigander. I think i read somewhere that Michigan has more coast than any other state except Alaska.
I like the lack of salt, but the water needs to be warmer for me. Ever swim in Lake Superior in August

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:21 am

Again I apologize to everyone for my assumptions. I assumed that when Lutz said that it’s mostly people on the West and East Coasts who will pay a premium for a hybrid, he would be a position to know. I still think that to some extent we “live in our own world,” but there’s no logical reason that would translate into higher hybrid sales.

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CS Guy Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:35 am

——————————-
“The Volt can literally change the face of automotive transportation as we know it,” he writes “Who would be ambivalent about that?”
- – - – - – - – -
Notice the choice to say the Volt “can” change the auto transport industry. Where is the statement that it WILL change it?

——————————–
Lutz although excited about the Volt is already mourning the loss of the high-power, gas-guzzling, dazzling machines of old. “In time, the government is going to legislate out of existence cars like the Camaro, the Corvette, the Cadillac CTS — all these acclaimed vehicles that have lately gotten rave reviews from the automotive press around the world,” predicts Lutz. “So, ultimately, we are driven by legislation into the kind of excitement provided by the Volt.”
… and …
Lutz believes the electric car marketplace is skewed to the coasts. “I would say the East and West Coast intellectual establishment kind of lives in its own world. When you get to the broad American marketplace, excitement is still kind of defined in the way it used to be.”
- – - – - – - – -
This tells us that Lutz’ true aim is to extend the reign of the gasser vehicles that GM has failed with for the last 30 years. He seems to be wistful for the past glory of big engines and basically free gasoline.

——————————-
Lutz goes on to say the advent of the Volt and other smaller cars that GM has in the pipeline does not mean the end of performance car. He likens their arrival to a grocery store that first begins to offer organic vegetables, “doesn’t mean it shuts down the meat counter.”
- – - – - – - – -
There it is. Lutz is fully behind the gas guzzler lobby and wants to relegate the Volt to that part of the market where “those environmental types” shop.

He is very clearly stating his lack of vision for the Voltec drive system. He is saying “the Volt will remain a niche product and the real ‘meat’ of our profits will continue to come from the crap products [gas guzzlers] we have been losing market share with for the last 30 years.” This tells me that he has no intention of making the Volt a “game changer” at all. He intends to keep it around for window dressing, greenwashing the GM brand which will continue to be just more of the same foreign oil terrorist-loving gas guzzling planet killing crap.

Albert Einstein said the definition of insanity is “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

——————————-
Producing the car he feels is an absolute necessity for GM. “We’re talking about our image here — about remaking GM; it is essential to get this done,” says Lutz.
- – - – - – - – -
Sadly, Lutz feels that the Volt is an image enhancer only. If so that would be like putting a shiny new hat on a bloated rotting corpse.

———————————-
He says “it’s probably just 5 percent of the public that desperately wants something environmentally sound and is willing to pay a premium for it,” and notes “the customer will never recover the premium paid for the hybrid system in fuel economy.”
- – - – - – - – -
This tells us that he has no concept of the importance of the Voltec drive system. When mass produced in adequate numbers (and 10,000 units is not that number, nor is 100,000) the economies of scale will bring the price of all Voltec vehicles down to parity or just a $2k or $3k premium for the Voltec vehicle over a comparable ICE.

If GM puts Voltec in all their vehicles that would be 10 Million Voltec vehicles produced a year at least. If GM used $1,000 per vehicle to subsidize the Voltec system (and that could easily come from the government loans they already receive but just as easily could come in the form of tax breaks to GM by the feds) that would be a significant pile of money to quickly ramp up Voltec production to quickly achieve those economies of scale that will make the Volt and all other GM vehicles cost effective and cost competitive.

The fact that Lutz continues to think of the Volt as a car for “those environmentalist activists from the east or west coast” and just does not get the fact that Voltec is the only thing that will save GM.

He is accurate in saying that most people probably won’t want to pay the premium for hybrid vehicles, which is from $4,000 to $12,000 right now. But he fails to realize that just because it is that way right now doesn’t mean it has to STAY that way.

Mass produce the Voltec drive system. Put it into every GM vehicle made. You will revolutionize the auto industry and GM will be the leader in the auto industry again. GM needs not only the vision to do this but also an advertising campaign that gets the American car buying public to see the vision of an electrified auto future and its positive impact on their lives – and that it makes the car damn fun to drive or strong and powerful, which it does.

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noel park Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:39 am

#107 k-dawg:

Good old coastal Needles, Blythe and Susanville, eh?

#108 EVO:

What then, feed company ball caps and Kawasaki ATVs?

#94 Dan Petit:

Well said!

I think that the “coastal intellectual” stereotype is just as ignorant and unfair as whatever stereotypes are laid on folks from the rest of the country. I live pretty close to the coast, and I don’t hear anyone accusing me of being an “intellectual”, LOL. Our family owns 7 Chevys, so I gess we’re well and truly out of the mainstream, hehehe.

We all have a lot more in common than we have differences, IMHO.

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:46 am

#107 k-dawg

I agree that I shouldn’t generalize. I’m sorry I did. And, yes, there are “greenies” everywhere. And urban cowboys. I was thinking more about things like accents, food, architecture, availlability of public transportation, etc. And cultural differences (at least between different countries) does affect marketing and sales. So, I assumed Lutz knew what he was talking about. I won’t make that mistake again.

#119 RB

As a member of the “cultural elite,” I’m also excluded from GM’s first delivery of Volts. They’re probably selling them in DC for political reasons. If Barney Frank can keep a distribution center in his state open, you can bet he’ll also get a Volt if he wants one. Which he probably will since it will help him look good to his voters. Although, in fairness, the volt will probably sell very quickly in DC for precisely that reason.

And far as California–it’s by far largest auto market in the US. And its one that GM has had major difficulties with. And it’s a top market for hybrids. Over 25% of hyrbid registrations are in California. I’m sure part of that is because they were available in California first. But they can save a lot of money on distribution costs by only making them available in two places. I’m not happy about it either.

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CS Guy Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:48 am

… addendum to my post above …

Remember that I am not stating that the same exact size of motor and battery pack for the Volt will work in a Chevy Tahoe or a Silverado.

The Voltec system has to be sized right for the application but that is just common sense. Take for example the 100 MPG Hummer that Raser Technologies will begin production on in 2011. It has 3 battery packs and a 200kW motor. But it is basically a Voltec system. And come on, who wouldn’t be thrilled to be getting 33 MPG or 100 MPG or 165 MPG effectively in your Hummer (depending on how many miles you drive a day – 200 miles a day gets you 33 MPG in a Hummer).

http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/hummer-fuel-economy-explained

So again, Lutz may not be ambivalent about the plans to make the Volt and make it a serious hybrid vehicle that will eventually gain market share like the Prius. But he is CLEARLY ambivalent about the need for action now to move away from gas guzzler vehicles. He is out of touch with what America needs and what America wants.

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Guido Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:50 am

One other point on Lutz’s focus on the “coastal elites” – air quality tends to be a more critical issue in larger cities, especially in LA due to geographic issues. Not only do they have the coin, they have a more immediate need ( and value ) for technologies that reduce airborne pollutants. Throw in their desire to cloth themselves in “green”, and they make a very attractive initial target for the first-edition Volts.

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sucotronic Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:54 am

I want one!!

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noel park Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 10:55 am

#123 CS Guy:

Alas, that’s pretty much how I see it too.

It always makes me shake my head to think of a 77 year old guy being the “product guru” of GM. I’m a few years younger than Mr. Lutz, a pretty involved “car guy”, and I certainly would not presume to anticipate the tastes of Gen X, et al. It probably betrays my age to refer to Gen X, which has been superseded by 1 or 2 younger labels by now for sure, hehehe.

I mean Scion?? I could have told Toyota that Scion would flop for free. Oh wait, they’re selling like hotcakes in SoCal? I’ll be darned. The latest craze in LA is Yarises with 22″+ wheels and 45 series tires, LOL. I saw 2 yesterday
.
Get some 20-somethings with a few tattoos (piercings?) or die, is my bitter experience. Do I agree with their taste? Seldom. Are they the future? Duh, I guess so.

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Jackson Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:01 am

The Southeast is automatically exempt from any “coastal” cultural panache, it usually comes last in any US culture-vs-culture discussion.

When it comes to the pecking order it usually shakes out as:

California / New York

DC / Chicago

Northeast (excluding NYC)

“Fly over”

The South

Many of these stereotypes, or even, ‘conventional wisdoms’ about regional sales differences tend to be self-fulfilling prophecies: Are there more hybrids in certain areas because more people buy them, or because more hybrids are made available in certain areas?

By the way, I see a LOT of Priuses on the roads around here (north of Atlanta), a lot of them these days have new dealer tags (indicating purchase within the last 30 days). I know someone personally who bought a Civic hybrid the last year they were available.

Laura M, I find most of your posts interesting and informed. You may be to blame for lifting the lid off the box, but not for it’s contents .

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am

#111 Van

Whitacre is now chairman of the board, but Fritz is still CEO. In many companies the same person holds both positions. Wagoner did. But at Ford, for example, Mullally is CEO, but Bill Ford is still chairman of the board. Personally, I think it’s better to separate the two positions since it leads to more accountability.

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Joe OBrien Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:39 am

They should make the grey ground effects painted black, then it will be perfect. As long as a sunroof is also an option.

Hear that GM? Prius has NO sunroof option, pathetic,
Honda Insight has no sunroof option, pathetic,
Please give the Volt an optional sunroof for those of us who love the sun, and don’t mind sacrificing 1 or 2 ev miles to let the warmth and light in.

PLEASE!!!

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k-dawg Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:55 am

@ 133 Joe OBrien

I think the whole roof on the Volt is glass. I’m pretty sure you can’t open it though.

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Shock Me Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:57 am

Send my VOLTEC Buick 4-door Sedan in a nice burgundy color, then throw in one of those snazzy solar-powered exhaust fans so I don’t step into a sauna after the car has been sitting in the Florida sun all day. It should have remote keyless entry W/O the power windows (or make the window motors more reliable) and a port for my iPhone (gots to have me my Glen Miller if I’m going to roll that way).

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

#66 LauraM

About the coasts versus the rest of the US………
————————-

Yeah, we know what you mean. The people on east and west coast only think of the rest of the country as “fly over country”. If only the two coast could somehow squeeze out the rest of the country and reside right next to each other all would be just peachy in the good old U.S. of A. Yeah, those of us in the fly over portion of the country understand the “coasties” real well.

Edited: No, we did not take anything you said personally. We understood how you meant it. No harm done, of course.

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Jethro Bodine Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

Shaft,

Thanks for the insightful and informative posts. I look forward to your future comments. Thanks Again.

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EVO Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

@ noel park 125
“#108 EVO:

What then, feed company ball caps and Kawasaki ATVs?”

Welcome to the past. That was true in the 1970’s and 1980’s, last century.
http://www.qrcv.com.au/atv_history/atv_history.htm

More recently, true professional stock handlers have their staff trained with and use bicycle helmets and mountain bicycles, go on foot, and/or use inexpensive, low speed electric atvs, which are also becoming very popular for highly effective hunting (quiet back country sneaking up on game followed by good hauling capabilities). Using non-gas methods makes for much less stress on the stock, due to much reduced noise and smells (and reduction of fire risks), for more profit.
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hunting/traditional-methods/hunting-atvs3.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3O8sacH7XE
http://www.doranev.com/e-ATV-from-Doran-Electric-Vehicles-EV.htm
http://www.x-tremescooters.com/atv/xa750/xa750.html

There are plenty of other ones, but you get the idea.

By the time I write this, it’ll probably already be the next new thing. Some of the posters here seems centuries behind in their understanding of reality.

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

#136 N Riley (me)

I did not want to sound like I was trying to be too hard on LauraM (#66) for what she said about the people who live on the east and west coast being “different” when it came to purchasing hybrid cars. I do agree somewhat on that point. If I lived in some of big polluting cities of the east and west coast I would have a much different view towards the specter of “global warming” than I presently do. The vast majority of the fly over country is composed of open country where pollution is blown away by the prevailing winds. Even though I live in an area that is relatively clean of the type of pollution found in L.A. or other big cities, I like the idea of a hybrid vehicle for the simple reason of reducing oil consumption. While I understand what LauraM was trying to say, I could not help myself from “ribbing” her just a little. Hope I did not touch off any feelings of hostility towards this poor old country boy. I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

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pgmikes Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

#109 EVO
“It can easily lift a Hummer and It uses Prius drivetrain technology.”

———————————

Actually it doesn’t use Prius technology. It uses a Series system more like the Volt.

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

#70 k-dawg

What car company was it that would let you borrow the car for a day before you bought it?
————————-

I have found a number of dealers over the years who have offered me the opportunity to take a car overnight or from Saturday until Monday morning. I took them up on it sometimes, but it was never a deciding factor in my purchase decision.

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EVO Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

@ pgmikes #140

Yes, it does use Pruis parallel technology.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20090604.CG27573&show_article=1

It ALSO uses a series system like the Volt, making it a dual mode vehicle.

An example of a dual mode vehicle is the BYD F3DM.

Regardless, it can pick up a Hummer and shelve it.

This is not even recent news:
http://www.mhia.org/news/members/8430/toyota-debuts-prius-inspired-hybrid-lift-truck-

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

#136 & #139 N Riley

I admit there are some people in New York who feel that way. They are usually the same people who thinks Obama walks on water. That GM is bankrupt because they made too many SUVs, and if they liquidate, it won’t affect the rest of the country. (And Detriot will bounce back.) That outsourcing is good for the country. That union labor doesn’t cost extra, and the MTA workers are entitled to go on strike for an 8% raise even though the MTA is running a major deficit. And the reason we have fare hikes is entirely due to management.

In other words, they want to feel superior to everyone else, and they don’t want to be bothered thinking for themselves. So they adopt the political viewpoint that makes them feel the best about themselves, and don’t question further. And, I’m reasonably sure that there are people like that everywhere. They have different refrains, but its basically the same thing. (I’m not saying that everyone who has one of the above opinions is one of them. Or doesn’t think for themselves. I’m just talking about certain people I’ve encountered who obviously don’t.)

I certainly don’t feel that way. There are definate differences. But I think those differences make us stronger and more flexible as a country. (And on a shallow note, I like having fried green tomatoes, fried chicken, barbecue, and sweet tea when I’m in the south–you can’t get sweet tea in New York. And our barbecue is very limited.)

But none of our differences are important. And, at the end of the day, we are all one country. We are interconnected as a country and an economy. And I think we’re better off for it. New York woudn’t be New York without the rest of the country.

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

#83 LauraM

Good come back. We knew you did not mean to “offend” anyone. Just couldn’t help ribbing you some about it. I am sure the others who responded to what you said feel the same as I do. Keep up the good reporting/comments.

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

#143 LauraM

But none of our differences are important. And, at the end of the day, we are all one country. We are interconnected as a country and an economy. And I think we’re better off for it. New York woudn’t be New York without the rest of the country.
——————————–

Amen in spades. “You have said a mouth full”, as we say here in the South. Thanks for you viewpoint. It is well taken.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

#142 EVO
it says pretty clearly that the engine drives a hydraulic pump to assist with the load handling (lifting) so although yes it is dual mode it is not like the Prius since the drive is full electric and the mechanical power is transmitted through hydraulics and not a geared transmission.

Still… a pretty cool device!

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

#89 BillR

“Easy”, says the guy from New York, “Fifty grand for you, fifty grand for me, and we’ll hire the guy from Texas to do the job!”
—————————-

I am just now getting around to reading some of the comments. Yours had me rocking back in my chair just chuckling. I loved it. I have heard some similar, but this one hit the sweet spot. Thanks for lightening things up with the humor.

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eightjack Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

#90
RB Says:
Quoted from the previous Lutz thread
——————-
“1) The headline says “GM Ambivalent”
2) The post quotes Lutz as saying “Producing the car he feels is an absolutely necessity for GM. “We’re talking about our image here — about remaking GM; it is essential to get this done,” says Lutz. “We can’t make any mistakes with the Volt.”
The editorial statement (1) conflicts with the actual quotation (2). There is no ambivalence in Lutz’s comments. Lutz’s position has been consistent from the start.”
—————————————————-
RB, you’re missing the point. Elsewhere In the intervew Lutz bemoans the coming loss of muscle cars, which he basically attributes to political meddling by wrong-headed elites. He then goes on to say, not that VOLT is the future, the thing the market demands, but that it is “necessary for GM’s image”! He doesn’t say “we are now fully committed to a different strategy.” Instead, he basically says “the VOLT makes us LOOK different, it’s necessary camoflouge! But of course we’ll still be churning out the red-meat.”
If this was simply clear-eyed realpolitik by a no-nonsense guy , there would be little to object to (although one might wonder about the competence of a wannabe puppet-master who publicly blabs his secret agenda). The thing is however, Bob’s particular assumptions and prejudices seem to be somewhat at odds with the current (and future) world. Bob is just not quite tracking the place we live in. For one of the guys at the wheel (and the microphone) this is pretty significantly unfortunate.

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

#119 Starcast

Here In Michigan I think we have about as much “Coast” as anyone.
And ours has no nasty salt! :>)
—————————-

No, you just spread yours all over the roads, bridges, sidewalks and elsewhere. Give me the salt limited to the sea coast any day.

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

#123 LauraM

Enough apologizing. You did it very well the first time. So, I see you haven’t caught on yet that some of these posters are ribbing you like I was. You would be the center of attention for some of these jokers. You must be just a tad naive. Or easily played a joke on, may be a better way of saying it.

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

#150 N Riley

Thank you for your imput. I may have gone a little overboard in apologizing. And I do understand that you (and others) were just joking.

But I also think that some people genuinely hate New York, and New Yorkers for precisely these reasons. (I’ve never actually listened to Rush LImbagh, so maybe I shouldn’t judge, but he comes to mind,) And the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to it, and give people a reason.

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

Once and for all. I would never describe Bob Lutz as ambivalent. This is a no nonsense type of guy who calls it like he sees it. If there is a bigger supporter of the Chevy Volt, I don’t know who that person is. Just because Bob loves Corvettes or other high powered vehicles doesn’t mean he does not support the Volt. This is the man primarily responsible for the Volt’s development. He is the true “father’ of the Volt. Bob Lutz is a great automobile man and has been responsible for some very great achievements at all of the Big Three auto companies.

Some of us have started to use Bob Lutz as a kind of whipping boy lately just because of his one statement of disbelief in the current global warming theory. Well, there are many, many more people of the same opinion and many of them are very highly placed scientist, educators and technologically advanced people. It is a sad day in America when if you voice an opposing opinion from the current liberal environmental viewpoint you get called all kinds of names and get shouted down. I don’t know who is right in the global warming theories floating around and I feel sure Bob Lutz would agree. I do know that the earth has gone through many warm up periods as well as cool down periods well before mankind was on the planet driving gas guzzlers and polluting the air with our factories and such. But I do agree we need to limit all the pollution we can and end as much as we can. It only makes sense to do so.

Let’s give Bob Lutz a break for a while. He has done us all a great service by championing the Volt at a time when GM would rather have done other things. I can say with pride and gratitude: Thank you very much Mr. Bob Lutz. Good luck in the future. Job well done, sir. (From another old Marine who likes to tell it like I see it. There are not enough of us around these days to see past all the crap flowing out of D. C.)

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Shock Me Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

eightjack #148

I imagine you can parse the quotes anyway you like. But clearly GM does have a significant “image” problem. Not it’s only problem to be sure, but a significant one to overcome.

I choose to interpret is remarks differently. To me his remarks suggest that the Volt is critical not in a greenwashing context but as a transition vehicle to GMs future. If the first instance of the VOLTEC drivetrain is poorly executed there will be NO buyers for follow-on vehicles.

With respect to his grocery store analogy, I took it to mean that the introduction of this technology will be gradual enough to accommodate a both traditional (meat) customers and new customers with different dietary needs (organic).

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N Riley Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

#151 LauraM

While I don’t generally listen to Rush LImbaugh either, I believe he actually does love New York. He just hates the “tax them to death” mentality of the city and state. I did hear an interview he gave where he talked about the reasons he was selling out his home in New York and would not do any business in New York in the future. I assume what he said was factual and true. The interviewer did not contradict him and he was a New Yorker also. But I am not trying to defend Rush. He is quite capable of doing that himself, I am sure.

I actually wanted to address your statement about people hating New York and New Yorkers. I understand your feelings, being from Mississippi. If there is one place in the world that is misunderstood more and made more fun of, I would like to know where it is. I don’t hate anyone from New York or anywhere else. That doesn’t mean I agree with how people live and how they inter-relate to others who they may disagree with. We are all different in one manner or another. It is that difference that makes it interesting and not so interesting at times. As a young man I used to say that “variety is the spice of life”. I think that still holds true even when addressed to people, automobiles or whatever. The old saying that “we have to get along to get along” is just as true.

I served 4 years in the Marine Corps as a young man. I had friends from PA, NY, MA and many other locations, including the South. I got along with all of them. I did not ask about their personal beliefs and I did not mind that they were not of the same race as I. They treated me as one of their kind and I returned the favor with all the friendship I could muster for a young, naive country boy from a small Mississippi delta farm. I met some really nice guys while serving my country. I stay in touch with some of them and wish to this day that I could have stayed in close contact with all of them.

Yes, this is a wonderful country. There is none like it anywhere else around the world. If it goes the way of other great nations, we will only have ourselves to blame.

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Shock Me Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

N Riley

Yep awesome country. And when I can plug in wherever my first BEV stops I will be happy to explore it that way.

Until then I’ll depend on a EREVs such as the Volt for my next vehicle.

Question: Does any company make a NEV for under $10K US?

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Michael C. Robinson Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

Volume production will never make the Chevy Volt gas/electric
hybrid affordable. GM needs to skip the gas electric hybrid
and produce the fuel cell small battery version.

The poles are melting and the polar bears are facing extinction,
it’s time for GM to take OIL out of transportation completely.

I live 23+ miles from college, so a 40 mile AER won’t cut it. I’d be
burning gas every day of the week. I know I’m not alone, there
are a lot of people living in suburbs that are more than 40 miles
away round trip.

Batteries running $8-10k dollars for 40 miles weighing 350 to 400 pounds are NEVER going to drop in price enough to make the gas/electric hybrid Volt affordable. It’s never going to happen.
First thing that needs to happen is a comparable battery that doesn’t use the rare element Lithium needs to be invented. After
that, there’s the problem of increasing the energy capacity 7 fold
without adding weight or cost. Even if the cost doesn’t go up and
a better battery becomes available, the current cost of $8-10k is
too high. The cost of the battery needs to drop by a factor of 4 to 5,
which mass production isn’t going to deliver.

Fuel Cells are dropping in price and getting both smaller and more
powerful rapidly. Already, Mercedes is talking about selling a fuel
cell car for $30k. That’s not leasing, that’s the selling price. That
car can probably go 300 miles without refueling and refueling takes
a matter of minutes.

The year for GM to get a fuel cell car on the market is 2015 and it
needs to push the best technology it has, not the Sequel with a
pitiful 150 mile range. When Toyota and Honda beat GM at getting
a reasonable fuel cell car commercialized, GM will be singing a
different tune.

Just get the Chevy Volt Hydrogen out today. Get a 100 of them on
the road for testing ASAP. Build a dedicated factory.

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EVO Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

@ MuddyBobRover and pgmikes.

The “lift truck, which utilizes much of the Toyota hybrid technology used in the Toyota Prius, was developed by Toyota Industries Corporation (TICO), in cooperation with Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC)…It draws upon the engineering of the Toyota Prius.”

Did you even read both articles? You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make it drink, apparently.

The point of my original post is that actual commercial agricultural operations find medium and heavy duty lift trucks, most of which are all electric, far more useful for hauling and moving than light vehicle pickup trucks. What an ironic shame that just as GM dumps two of their medium duty truck lines completely, Toyota makes one of their heavy duty machines a hybrid for likely improved sales.

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Luke Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Mikeinatl @ 68,

It seems that almost every Prius I see has all kinds of Save the Earth bumper stickers all over it. Such folks revel in being conspicuous environmentalists. And the bizarre looking Prius is their biggest “sticker” of all.

Our 2004 Prius doesn’t have any stickers on it at all. There’s enough road rage out there without being profiled by other drivers based on my politics and/or religion.

The Volt, a very attractive “normal” looking car is going to upset this strategy. Soon you won’t have to drive around in an odd-ball econo-tird to dramatically reduce gasoline use, cut pollution and reduce Americans dependance on foreign oil.

Our 2ng generation Prius is hardly an “econo-tird”. It has an excellently sized and shaped cargo area, and a wide variety of techno-features (keyless start, very nice nav system, digital fuel-consumption displays, bluetooth integration, integrated garage door opener, etc). It isn’t a sportscar by any means, but it’s not supposed to be. It’s supposed to be an efficient and reliable household transportation appliance with a heavy dose of technology — and that’s what it is.

And then there will be a new “cool” way to get around.

What will all those Prius folks do then?

Buy a Volt. Du-uh. That’s why I read this blog.

The Prius is a great little car, but I’m really hoping the Volt makes it obsolete. At the moment, it’s kind of hard for a few test vehicles and a research program to compete with a real car that’s sitting out in the parking lot right now — but I sure hope that the Volt makes the Prius thoroughly obsolete by new technology, ASAP.

(Volt is WAY to pretty to put bumper stickers on, if thats what you’re thinking.)

No, that’s not what I’m thinking.

I want a car that meets my needs and that doesn’t require foreign oil, or excess CO2 emissions. Failing that, I’ll take a car that meets my needs and keeps those externalities to a minimum. I’m not trying to convert anyone to my ideology. I’m an engineer at heart, and I just want a good car. I don’t care about sports-car qualities or impressing anyone with my car at this stage in my life — I’ve been there, done that, and I have more practical things to do.

I’ll also remind you that the Prius is a bigger car than a Yaris or a Fit. Its interior dimensions somewhere in between a Corolla and a Camry, except that it has a better shape for loading and carrying cargo (when the seats are folded down), though I imagine the Camry has more rear legroom. Still, we carry cargo back from the hardware store more often than we carry adults in the back seat, so it meets our needs nicely. It’s not a car for everyone, but it sure would meet our needs, even without the Hybrid Synergy Drive (and the geeky-green image). Don’t get me wrong — we do like the exceptional mileage, and the geeky-green image, but when the rubber meets the road, we’re practical people and the Prius is a practical car.

Just remember: All of those Prius drivers out there are saving gas for you. The paradox of thrift applies but, assuming your vehicle gets less than about 45mpg, things are balanced in your favor. Just pass me at the next polite opportunity, and get on with your life.

Anyway, your characterization of Prius drivers is way off — and working off of bad data improves nothing.

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Mark Z Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

VOLT in black is beautiful, especially in California!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/03/the-great-california-black-car-crisis-is-over-for-now-at-leastthe-california-air-resources-board-said-friday-that-it-has.html

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terryk Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

I can’t read!

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EVO Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

Oh, and it’s a diesel hybrid, for low cost high efficiency.

I’m still waiting for a Jetta TDI/Prius/Hymotion plug in super low sulfur diesel hybrid performance vehicle mashup. It’s only a matter of time. I suspect that Jalopnik will get the scoop on that one.

Low cost super efficient performance is what interests me. If I happen to accidentally save the planet, get us off of imported oil, stop sending fuel money overseas to hostile areas and save the domestic economy while I’m cheaply beating Lamborghinis off the line, that’s not my fault. I just care about the cheaply beating Lamborghinis off the line part.

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EVO Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

Dag nab it! Those Ferarris and Lamborghinis are going to get harder for me to beat off the line. They’re adding electric drive, which will help their off the line launches and any time instant acceleration.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/090609-Lamborghini-Ferrari-Going-Hybrid/

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CS Guy Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

162 EVO (on the Ferrari/Lamborghini hybrid plans)

Nice find!

It looks like every car maker is getting serious about evolving their product line with hybrid technology. All that is except GM…

Personally, I’d take a Voltec minivan please. Crossovers (refer to the link) are the “in” thing now but I have no use for them. Bring back the true American station wagon and the minivan. They’re as American as Mom and Apple Pie! A minivan has the best possible combination of people carrying capacity and huge cargo space.

http://wot.motortrend.com/6496869/industry-news/report-gm-delaying-compact-minivan-production/index.html

Maybe I’ll look into Chrysler… Although the Uplander doesn’t look too bad – I just don’t know about its interior cargo space. Anybody have more info on this?
http://www.allautoreviews.com/auto_reviews/chevrolet/chevrolet-uplander.htm

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EVO Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

@ CS Guy 163

I dunno. Last time I checked GM has about 13 hybrids across their product line. Most aren’t selling that great relative to hybrid offerings from other manufacturers, so perhaps their marketing, mission statement and dealerships are lacking in providing results, rather than the product. The mileage difference between a Honda Civic and Civic hybrid (54% city, 44% combined, 32% highway) is prettty substantial compared to the mileage difference between the Chevy Silverado (40%, 23%, 10%) and Silverado hybrid, though, especially for combined and highway mileage, so maybe it is a combination of weak hybrids, poor product choices and willful incompetence in advertising, marketing and sales, as the Civic hybrid is selling great and the Silverado hybrid, not so much.

Certainly their muddlement of different types of hybrid systems within even some of the same models, lack of follow through on what they promise and poor execution seems to have hurt them. I blame management’s inability to inspire to do great things. Talk is cheap.

The closest thing to what you describe in a high mileage hybrid sounds like a Toyota Highlander hybrid or one of the Ford Escape hybrid trio, since a station wagon (square open back) combined with a minvan (truck frame) = SUV. Sadly, the GM hybrid SUV offerings do not come anywhere close to helping the company meet CAFE standards, so I do not mention them.

The one exception to all this deficiency in efficiency (and I’m holding back my criticism) is the Chevy Volt, a shining example of which is at the top of this thread. Well done, GM!

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Shawn Marshall Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

(Eco-dogue alert) Black is not green. Looks good though.

I’d like to have one in electric blue if GM ever becomes a private enterprise.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 7:13 pm

No black for me.

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LauraM Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 11:11 pm

#154 N Riley

I haven’t listened to Rush Limbaugh, so I can’t tell you if he’s right or not. I didn’t even know he had a house in New York. The public service unions do have a definite “tax and spend” mentality though. It drives me crazy. Personally, I think public services unions are, by definition, unfair to me, the taxpayer.

But I’m not talking about that kind of criticism. I’ve seen all sorts of church literature denouncing New York as a “nest of sinners.” And, more recently, people seem to think that everyone in New York works for AIG or a bank. And we’re all getting multi-million dollar bonuses from the TARP money. (I wish.) Yes. Those people are a distinct minority. At least I hope they are. But it still worries me.

I agree with everything else you said. Our diversity, and our ability to work together is our greatest strength. I love the US. It’s an amazing country. And I’m still hoping we can make a comeback.

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charlie h Says:
June 11th, 2009 at 7:46 am

#97, Guido, “Chill, chump ! I think this poster (eightjack) is “Charlie H.” – obviously he has some anger-management issues.”

One significant error per every 8 words. You might be the champ for this thread. eightjack isn’t me and I don’t have anger management issues.

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EVO Says:
June 11th, 2009 at 9:47 am

Another weak GM hybrid bites the dust:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124468842019805121.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

At least full hybrids provide bang for the buck. When will GM get it that most consumers want their electric drive to have ba!!s. Oh, they do, thus the Volt. Go, Volt!

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/06/11/does-the-death-of-gms-hybrid-malibu-bode-badly-for-volt/

Meanwhile,
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/plug-in-conversions/

Tick-tock, tick-tock. Hurry up, GM. Everyone is in the performance electric drive race now and you’re losing early advantages with your foot dragging on Volt production and sales.

I’m no marketing guru, but maybe sell it on line as your dealerships have now publicly stated “We could care less” about your products? You’ll save coin and your dealerships will no longer be part of the problem. Everyone knows what a car is now and word of mouth matters hugely in sales. Maybe do a special one year $4,500 lease of 500 of them, with an iron clad option to buy after that year, with two going to each of the 250 largest communities in the US, on a “Why I deserve a Volt” contest, with extra points for our military service members and their families? Cheap advertising gold.

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Mike Says:
June 11th, 2009 at 11:59 am

I like the Volt and plan to get one in the future. However, my main question is this. Why is there an ad for the 3rd generation Toyota Prius on this article?? I find that odd, funny, and weird all at the same time.

Great job on the Volt site. Keep it up.

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pgmikes Says:
June 11th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

EVO

I did read the articles. I’ll give you that both, Forklift and Prius, vehicle descriptions contain the word parallel.

It seems funny that the drive system of the forklift would be a Series
System designed with the aid of Toyota engineers. I guess it’s a case of the best tool for the job, and Toyota feels the best tools for road vehicles are Parallel Systems.

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jeffhre Says:
June 11th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

#171
pgmikes

Maybe they feel the best tool for Toyota’s success in the marketplace is the system they’ve already spent billions on to make into the best selling hybrid in the world.

Just my best guess at this time. No more no less.

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stopcrazypp Says:
June 12th, 2009 at 2:29 am

#156
Michael C. Robinson

First of all on batteries: the power density is actually excellent for batteries. This is why the Clarity uses one! Fuel cells suffer from low power density so they need a battery to supplement the power.
What batteries suffer from is low gravimetric energy density. However it seems most people are satisfied once the pack is big enough for their daily travel. The Tesla Model S is going to have a 300 mile battery. This is done by using some higher density 2800-3000mah 18650 cells vs the 2400mah cells they use in the Roadster today. 300 miles (EPA cycle) seems to be what most gas cars get and it seems even 100 miles is enough for most people to travel. Long range wise, we have practical solutions in PHEV/EREVs like the Volt; rapid charging and battery swapping might be more widespread in the future (both are demonstrated to work already). But the important point is that people can begin driving electric with a plug-in for most of their travel without waiting for infrastructure changes.

The problem with hydrogen is it’s mostly talk. So far there’s not one hydrogen vehicle for sale, not even an expensive one, so we can’t tell how much it will cost, so it’s hard to make a judgment on whether it will ever be viable. On the plug-in side, at least we have conversions and production EVs like the Tesla being sold so we can actually tell how much it will cost.

Then there’s the infrastructure side. It makes no business sense to build a hydrogen station because the fuel is still more expensive than gasoline (even in projections) and the fueling station costs 2-4x a normal gas station. Add the fact there are no cars to use the stations and it becomes even worst. So this means the governments has to provide huge grants to subsidize stations even to run the smallest of hydrogen fleets. Currently our almost bankrupt California state government has to shell out millions to fund hydrogen stations.

As for why car companies are still focused on hydrogen despite funding cuts, you can thank CARB from our state. Hydrogen cars get more credit than plug-ins and BEVs in the ZEV quota that automakers will have to meet for 2012-2014. Keep in mind virtually all the major companies has at least one specific (not just a vague promise) plug-in car planned for commercial release in the next few years or already running in a commercial fleet, even when they are simultaneously developing hydrogen cars. GM has the Volt. Toyota has their plug-in Prius and the FT-EV. Ford has a couple of plug-in Escapes and also a BEV Focus planned. Chrysler has their ENVI division’s Circuit EV. Nissan has the EV-02 BEV planned. Mitsubishi has the iMIEV and Subaru has the Stella EV in production. Daimler bought a 10% stake in Tesla and has the Smart-EV and a mystery EV planned. BMW has the MINI-E running and a follow-up unnamed EV planned. Even Volkswagen, which has been bad mouthing EVs, recently signed a battery deal with BYD. The only odd one out is Honda with the Clarity (still less than 50 of them last I heard) and no plug-in planned.

On energy use: both plug-ins and hydrogen hold promise because they are the two that can run on renewable energy like solar and wind. However, via electrolysis, hydrogen takes at least 2x the energy to travel the same distance as an EV. That means to run a renewable hydrogen fleet you need twice the generating capacity.

That’s just a couple of the problems I have with hydrogen. First and foremost is it’s not going to be ready for the market in the near future. It’ll just be more waiting. If previous announcements in both the hydrogen and plug-in space is any indication, the promise for commercialization of hydrogen cars will be more fleets. Contrast this with the Volt, which even with expensive battery prices, we know is entirely practical and doable in the near future. Out of all the plug-ins announced it’ll probably be the most practical. I feel GM made the right decision, and besides, GM is still continuing on their hydrogen program anyways (they have to because of the ZEV mandate). Remember, GM is no longer the lone major automaker planning to release an plug-in, the space has gotten a LOT more crowded, as I have shown, and if GM ditched the Volt and focused solely hydrogen they will surely not be ready to compete.

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stopcrazypp Says:
June 12th, 2009 at 3:38 am

#156
Michael C. Robinson
Oh and I wouldn’t be so sure about mass production not being able to drastically bring down large format battery prices. For 18650 lithium cobalt cells, they fell from ~$11/cell in 1995-97 to slightly more than $2/cell today because of mass production, all the while keeping a ~5%/year increase in capacity. That’s a 5 fold decrease in price. The current cells being used by cars like the Volt are expensive because they use new based manganese (or iron phosphate) lithium chemistries and new larger cell sizes. This requires new R&D and tooling which drives cost high.

And don’t use the Volt as a benchmark for mile/weight because it only uses half of it’s pack capacity (this is due to it being a EREV). A pure EV like the Tesla gives a better benchmark. It’s 900lb pack gives 244 miles. And because a pure EV takes out the heavy ICE, transmission, and emissions equipment (~500lbs together), it can deal with a couple hundred pound pack. That means a 500lb 300 mile pack is all that is really needed to reach parity with a normal gas car. So basically batteries only need a 2x improvement in density to match ICE cars, not a 7x. And if people can deal with 150 mile range, we don’t even need an improvement. We can conceivably reach 2x improvement with the incremental improvements in li-ion technology, but lithium air and lithium sulfur holds good promise for a much more drastic improvement in energy density.

I can’t do the same analysis for hydrogen fuel cells/storage systems because I haven’t been following hydrogen closely, but I’m fairly sure it’s as expensive, if not more expensive than batteries.

The analog for hydrogen to batteries is that though the hydrogen tanks take up a lot less weight than batteries, it takes up as much if not more volume. And because of the cylindrical shape of the tank it makes it hard to store inside the vehicle without taking up cargo space. This is why most hydrogen demonstration vehicles are SUVs. On the cost side, the analog is the fuel cell power. You need a minimum to drive the vehicle. I don’t know the current fuel cell costs but again I’m guessing it’s more expensive than batteries since if they weren’t, I don’t see why Honda can’t sell the 100kW (134hp, given the fuel cell cost weakness is power you can see where they skimped) Clarity for $100-200k or less, when Tesla can sell a 244 mile (remember the cost weakness for batteries is energy density/range and Tesla went all out on range) EV for $109k, with both being low volume.

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koz Says:
June 12th, 2009 at 6:04 am

H…mmmmmm…white noise

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danny Says:
June 13th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

Its a Honda Civic!!! I under stand if you can’t bet them, join them. Atleast come up with your own car design. Nice looking, but still a rip-off of the Civic.

GM has been trying to make an electric car since the late ’80s. Lets see if they can make it up a slight hill this time.

If Chryler hadn’t gone bankrupt, I would have more faith in the venture they went into with Nissan. As far as costs, once these cars go into mass production, costs will come down. It will take a few years, but as the support companies amp up production, they’re cost per unit will slowly go down, and so will the over all cost of the vehicle. And of course as actural demand rises, the companies involved will fund more research into cutting production costs. With in 6-10 years of there release, they should become affordable. Its the same process with every new Technology.

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