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GM-Volt.com Chevy Volt Mule Second Test Drive and How it Compares to Current Hybrids

June 9th, 2009 | Posted in: Prototypes, Test drive

While visiting the GM Technical Center in Warren Michigan for the new battery lab tour and announcement, I had another chance to briefly test drive the Volt Cruze mule. How could I resist?

With the sheer novelty of the first drive behind me, I figured I could get a better feel for driving the car. Since I’ve also had the chance since then to drive the Toyota Prius and the new Honda Insight a driving comparison, albeit limited, might be in order.

Volt wins hands down.

The Volt mule is one sweet car. The pep and power of the smooth, refined, and quiet Volt motor can’t even be compared to the straining whine of the hybrids’ small combustion engines as they try to pull those cars up to speed. The Volt is in a different league altogether.

The Volt mule is heavier, less aerodynamic, and lacking the suspension tuning the actual production Volts will have. Yet despite these restraints, the car still handles marvelously.

The power and spirit was refreshing. I also found I could rip around curves with certainly and solid grip and hug. The Honda Insight handles pretty well though feels lighter, the tallish Prius seems most tenuous around curves.

One could sense the weight and bottom-heaviness of the Volt mule due to the 400 pound T-pack in the center. Although slightly unusual feeling it also gives the driver the benefit of a low center of gravity and even weight distribution which provides confidence in road handling.

Round two in the Volt mule was as inspiring as the first.

GM still will not allow experience of generator mode, but GM VP Jon Lauckner explains these mules were built for testing the propulsion system’s performance, not how the car interfaces with the driver. There is not even soundproofing in the mules. Thus there really is no point for GM to share a subpar generator mode experience that does not realistically represent how the actual car will behave. When the integration vehicles, which are 100% production intent Volts, hit the test roads soon, journalists will come back to experience all of the car’s functions.

I also suspect no one will be able to meaningfully compare the Volt to the Prius or Insight because the driving experience is so radically different and so far superior in the Volt.

Even aside from the fact that the Volt can be driven for 40 miles without gas, it is truly in a different league altogether than any hybrid sedan on the road today.

Posted by: Lyle

184 Responses to “GM-Volt.com Chevy Volt Mule Second Test Drive and How it Compares to Current Hybrids”

J. Muchagrove Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:36 am

I still wish they’d let us know about the transition to generator mode! Also how is production of the ‘real’ Volt coming along?

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beachliving Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:39 am

Wow, I m good at being 2nd…:) This is such a great post. I love the fact that it is becoming more and more main stream. Soon it will be here and we will know what it is like ourselves.

Has anyone asked when they plan to start taking orders?

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Right Lane Cruiser Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:44 am

Congrats on another test drive!!

So when do you get to test one of the production intent models?

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old man Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:45 am

Lyle

Glad you got another shot to test drive our wanted Volt. I would assume it blows away the Prius and Insight due to its being an electric car from its inception. However I think the window of opportunity to get it on the road prior to the Japanese introducing a true serial electric drive car is short. I have no inside info but I know if I were running ANY major car company I would pull out all the stops in order to get mine on the road as soon after the Volt as would be possible

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:46 am

Lyle, you’ve made so many of us jealous with your good fortune to be able to test drive the Volt (albeit a mule).

Your comments solidify my opinion that Voltec is the technology that will save GM and our American auto industry.

I stand fervently behind my continuing comment that GM would be foolish not to put a Voltec drive system in every vehicle they make, across all product lines. Starting with cars like the Cruze and the Volt and not stopping till they have Voltec in luxury models, trucks, vans, crossovers, minivans (count me as wanting a Voltec minivan), and SUVs.

There is nothing stopping GM but their vision and their will to become a dominant player once again in the auto industry. Voltec in every vehicle will put them in a leadership position in the industry for decades to come. Of course, a slow transition to all electric drive as batteries progress and are able to provide 200 mile range or more is also necessary for long term survivability by GM.

Get to it GM. Go America!

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Van Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:52 am

Great post, Lyle! Looking forward to your report on the IVER charge sustaining mode performance in July.

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ccombs Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:55 am

I don’t know…I think lots of companies are taking a “wait and see” attitude. It may be a number of years before a true Volt competitor shows up, and then a few years after that before it is comparable in performance to the next gen Volt. That is, assuming BYD doesn’t enter the US market with a good series hybrid. Unlike GM of course, I will be very excited when cars like the Volt become widespread. In order for them to do so, I think we need a good 5 years or so of GM getting attention as the only one with E-REV so other car companies get sufficiently jealous. I’m hoping there will be not that much competition at first so the Volt will get off its feet and have time to establish itself. Then let the games begin. GM should view the inevitable imitation as a compliment, however annoying it might be to actually compete .

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:57 am

If its that much better driving experience than a Prius, then maybe its worth the extra $$$.

~$25K Prius vs. $33K Volt, so $8K more for something fun to drive

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Larry McFall Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:58 am

I wouldn’t expect anything less from the MULE. The Volt is going to be a great automobile and will most likely, put GM back in the lead of the U.S. Auto Industry.

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omegaman66 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 8:59 am

CS Guy I think ultimantly that is what will happen (voltec in virtually every vehicle). But you don’t do something like that before the voltec has been proven on the road.

If potholes end up destroying the batteries and we all opt to go the route of the air car then GM would be totally screwed far worse than they are now. This is just an example fill in whatever potential problem you can think of. What the problem is isn’t the issue just that there is a possibility that a problem could arise.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:01 am

Onward and Upward!

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:03 am

I’m glad that at second glance the ’shine’ hasn’t come off!

Maybe my “Volt SS” comment from the other day isn’t so far off the mark! Look out Stig!

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Jackson Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:04 am

Good to hear. I hope the story continues in a positive direction (I think it will, based solely on the hardware).

I agree with ccombs. The Volt’s primary competition at this moment is coming from Japan, where caution rules the day. With no serious setbacks, GM’s Voltec could eat Toyota’s lunch.

I won’t say that about Honda, they seem bent on competing on a best-cost basis, and there’s always a place for that; but IMHO I think this will end up hurting Toyota more than GM.

On being thirteenth: You know, it’s bad luck to be superstitious.

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Brian Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:07 am

I think this is a true leepfrog technology for GM, performance while not using any gas. All other hybrids are just a waste time and money. As this technolgy matures this will become painfully so for Toyota and Honda. It will be very interesting to see how the actual Volt compares to the Prius. Many here have debated whether or not this is a leepfrog technology and if it is worth the extra $$$>

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fredevad Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:09 am

GM VP Jon Lauckner explains these mules were built for testing the propulsion system’s performance, not how the car interfaces with the driver. There is not even soundproofing in the mules. Thus there really is no point for GM to share a subpar generator mode experience that does not realistically represent how the actual car will behave.

Very well said … but why couldn’t/didn’t they just say that the first time? I bet it would have stifled some of the skepticism about the ICE.

Glad you got another ride, Lyle! Can’t wait to hear about your IVER drive.

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Joe Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:11 am

I assume GM has patents many ideas of the Volt. If not,the competitors will steal their technologies. The Japanese are well known of doing that.

If they do have many patents, it will be tough for the competitors to design a car like the Volt.

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ccombs Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:11 am

PS. Regular gas is now over $3.00 here.

As much as this sucks, it is still too low to wean us off gas. Based on calculations we’ve done in my transport efficiency class, even the $4.50 of last year doesn’t make BEVs economically viable for many people. However, the further up we go towards Euro prices and the lower battery cost gets, the closer we are to EREV and then BEVs actually being an economic purchase, rather than a philanthropic one.

This however, is only the case because we pay taxes for our roads and protecting oil supply out of our income so we don’t feel the hurt in the right place- gas prices. If we shifted those taxes to gasoline*, then we’d be talking EREVs as an economic necessity right now. I’d definitely support income tax reductions for much higher-priced gas. It would bring a world of benefits.

*And there was a way to lessen the impact on the poor, although it would not be as big an impact as some say

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Jackson Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:15 am

Gas is $2.49 – 2.50 in my area (a few miles north of Atlanta).

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:18 am

#10 Omega, “fill in whatever potential problem you can think of. What the problem is isn’t the issue just that there is a possibility that a problem could arise.”

If this were 1992 I would agree with your comment. GM has lost market share every year for the past 30 years. At what point do you wake up and realize that you can’t continue with business as usual and cautious baby steps.

There comes a time to step up to the plate. Sure it’s a risk. But following your wait and see plan is also a risk but a much greater one.

And what a ridiculous comment that the Volt battery will be damaged by driving over a pothole. Not gonna happen. Nice try though.

@Brian #14, “All other hybrids are just a waste time and money”
Right on! From the comments of Mr Lutz on Friday it seems to me that GM doesn’t know what a killer app they have in the Volt. Voltec is THE game changer. The 2-mode and parallel hybrids only guarantee you WILL be using gas. The Voltec drive system gives you the CHOICE to use it or don’t.

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N Riley Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:27 am

Great report, Lyle. Second experiences are always better than the first experience because you know what to expect and to look for. Just think how the experience will be later this year when you get to drive a real Volt. Good luck and I hope it is soon.

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ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:33 am

The actual price of gas isn’t causing people to want electric cars as much as the fact that the oil industry can change the price whenever they want to without needing any reason. People are getting fed up with that and a lot of them will pay extra for an electric car to escape from that.
Thanks, Lyle for this website and your frequent and always interesting updates. GO GM! GO VOLT! 17 months to go.

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nataraj Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:37 am

This however, is only the case because we pay taxes for our roads and protecting oil supply out of our income so we don’t feel the hurt in the right place- gas prices. If we shifted those taxes to gasoline*, then we’d be talking EREVs as an economic necessity right now.
—-
We should also calculate the damage to the planet fossil fuels cause – put a $ value to that and collect it from extremely profitable oil companies.

As we all know, lead paint is cheaper than normal paint.

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statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:37 am

Grats on another test drive…and you continued access to GM.

(=

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:41 am

#19 CS Guy

There’s also the fact that Voltec is expensive, and GM is still planning to lose money on each one. When the costs come down, GM will make a lot more versions. (Although even then, I think they will still stick to the more aerodynamic designs.) But, for right now, I think they’re right to limit production. (Even though it will make it harder for me to get one.)

Also, from what I understand, the Prius outsells most of Toyota’s other hybrids. Which, IMHO, means that many Prius buyers are looking to make a statement. It will be the same with the Volt. So GM would be foolish not to make the Volt its own line like the Prius.

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DonC Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:42 am

This was a great idea Lyle! Some people really want to compare the Volt to the Prius or Insight, so your comparative review should be welcome, if only to point out that these cars are really not comparable. Gotta love the EV experience.

From the sounds of it Lutz is right that GM will have no trouble moving the first 10,000K units. Hopefully GM will be able to drive the price down for Gen II and III so it can move the next 100,000 and beyond.

******************

Jackson, gas in my area has been above $3/gallon for a couple of weeks. Seems like it goes up a few cents every day. While higher gas prices are critical for sending the right signals for moving away from oil, the timing could be better. The recovery seems to have started but the more money spent on gas means less will be spent on things.

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Herm Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:43 am

Great review Lyle, a good way to lift the gloom..

Battery cost and/or the “killer application” will determine the success of the electric vehicle.. I feel the cost of batteries can only go down.

Killer Application, here are some examples:

1. the ultimate would be lower cost than ICE car to buy, zero maintenance on top of that would be gravy. Much lower fuel cost of course.
2. second car family runabout.. the convenience and safety of refilling at home is very important to many families.
3. the mobile power generator, self contained and with a built in gas tank.. this would be popular with people in the trades and hurricane victims.

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N Riley Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:45 am

As far as the competitors to the Volt is concerned, people will continue to purchase the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight well after the Volt has established itself as the premier hybrid car. If it establishes itself. I think there is no cause to worry that the Volt will not be the premier hybrid car, but you have to be a little concerned because so many things have to come together at the same time. The competitors are not going to be sitting idly by while GM recovers and tries to re-establish itself as the top auto company in the world. If any of you think they will, then you are living in a dream world.

Toyota, Honda, Ford and others are moving forward with plans even now to combat the Volt. Some of this will be with new products and some of it will be in the realm of convincing people that the Volt is not as good as it really is. Plenty of people have preconceived opinions of all kinds of issues including which vehicle manufacturer is the best and which vehicle is the best. That is not going to be changed very easily.

GM has a tremendous selling job to do and the best way to do it is to produce world class vehicles starting with the Volt. Can GM do it? That is the 64 dollar question. Will the UAW let GM do it? Again a 64 dollar question. Will the government let GM produce the kinds of vehicles that will sell? Again another 64 dollar question. Will the buying public purchase these new GM vehicles? Now, that is a 64,000 dollar question. Good luck GM.

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Schmeltz Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:48 am

Another nice catch Lyle! Looking forward to your test drive of an “IV’er” soon as well.

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Van Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:49 am

LauraM @ 24, interesting point, thanks.

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Guido Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:51 am

Congratulations, Lyle, on your truly excellent adventure ! I have read a few pages ahead, and I suspect you will find it getting even better in the coming months !

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DonC Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:53 am

It’s been announced that Ed Whitacre, formerly from AT&T, will be the new Chairman of GM. Seems like car industry experience will not be a major advantage for the new Board members.

#24 LauraM

Toyota considered but ultimately rejected a line of hybrids along the lines of the Scion. But yes, the lesson taken from the success of the Prius as opposed to, say, the lack of success of the hybrid Camry, is that consumers want to make a visual statement. To do that you need a distinctive shape. That little hybrid decal just isn’t enough.

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:57 am

Congratulations on the second drive! I’m happy that the Volt beats the Prius and the Insight away in terms of handling–at least in pure electric mode. I’m looking forward to your report on the integration model.

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Neil Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:00 am

I hope GM doesn’t keep teasing us and starts to lay out concepts for roll out. Specifically my desire is to know how soon will it be available in my area?

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DaV8or Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:01 am

Statik # 23-

“Grats on another test drive…and you continued access to GM.”

———————————————————————————————

I’m assuming that GM has a restraining order against you Statik. lol.

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Lwesson Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:05 am

Fisker Motors added sound to it’s car. Lyle, is it an odd sensation to NOT have ANY sound or motor vibration feedback save for G forces from the car as to what you are doing with acceleration and deceleration? I have spoken of this before.

Humans crave tactile information from all the little human abilities and size proportions to make a comfortable relationship their world. Perhaps the electric motor does whine a bit. No doubt this will be, ah fleshed out as the years spin on by. I’ll take the reassuring burble of my straight eight flathead 51 Pontiac. LOL!

MuddyRoverRob and LauraM back to the end of the Lutz thread.

Kind Regards!———Higgins

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StevePA Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:05 am

#11 Corvette Guy

Off topic but thought you’d be interested…saw a truckload of Camaros headed east this morning on I-40, just east of Nashville. Hope your dealership gets its delivery soon…sweet looking vehicles.
The review in Edmunds.com was very complimentary.

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N Riley Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:05 am

I am all for GM putting the Voltec system into as many vehicles and types of vehicles as possible. But at the same time I don’t see the 40 miles per charge as a requirement or the aerodynamic design as the final look of these hybrid vehicles. I would be very happy with a Voltec car, truck or SUV that looked like our current crop of vehicles and only got 10, 15 or 20 miles per charge. It would be great to have a stylish design and great miles per charge, but I don’t want every car, truck or SUV to look like the Prius, Insight or Volt. That is why I am still hoping GM will come out with the Orlando as a Voltec vehicle soon after the Volt is established. Go GM.

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NZDavid Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:06 am

Great post Lyle.

On the more good news front, GM Holden reports a profit for last month.
Still no figures so I’m a little suspicious.

Next time ask specific questions about the generator.

1. Is it three phase A/C to match the 100 kW motor?
2. What is the efficiency of it?
3. Will it be used during plug charging to turn the ICE over? (Keeps ICE lubed)

LJGTVWOTR

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Herm Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:07 am

#16 Joe Says:
I assume GM has patents many ideas of the Volt. If not,the competitors will steal their technologies. The Japanese are well known of doing that.
……………………………………

They probably patented it in 1922

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Motive_Diesel

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Brian Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:09 am

The price of gas isn’t so much the issue for me as is I am not held hostage to it with the Volt. If some morning I wake up and there is a gas shortage or an oil embargo or who knows what!! I can still get to work and not have to worry about sitting in some gas line wondering if there will be any gas left when I get there.

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heyIMmike Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:09 am

Lyle, Thanks for the update! I have enjoyed living vicariously through your opportunities to drive and report on the development of the Volt. While I am anxious for the Volt to hit the street, I also am content to wait on GM’s time line. I say content because I know when it does hit the street it is going to blow away all the other competition such as the recent electric car you posted about. I didn’t even bother reading the article because just in looking at the photo, I knew no matter what it did, I wouldn’t be interested in something that looked that ugly. And besides, GM got the jump on the other auto companies on the electrification of cars. Its the other car companies that are rushing to beat the Volt, and will end up suffering with sub par offering that will not even compare.

Keep up the good work, and I look forward to the day I can test drive a Volt at my local dealership!

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StevePA Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:09 am

Congrats on the ride Lyle – guessing you’ll be in one of the production intents models soon…

Your impressions sound promising…

Wonder about the timing of the journalist testing of the production-intent models…with dealer deliveries still well over a year away, can stoke consumer interest too soon…

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old man Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:10 am

N Riley #37

Totally agree with you regarding the Orlando. Not the car for me but judging by the number of vans on my street, a van is the most logical step IMHO.

Brian #40

I also am not motovated as much by the cost of gasoline as I am by the memory of gas lines in the early 70’s. and as an earlier post said not held hostage by OPEC diciding to raise prices at will and control world economy to a degree.

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noel park Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:12 am

#17 ccombs:

You and others have made excellent points about the “externalized costs” of gasoline. “jbfalaska” used to say that, if all of those things, particularly the military costs of keeping the oil sources open, were factored in, the true cost of gas is more like $10/gallon. I believe it.

The question of “economic” vs. “philanthropic” purchase is an interesting one. My thought is that the difference between strict economic calculations and the price of a Volt is more about enlightened self interest than it is about philanthropy. If we as individuals don’t step up and make some contributions toward preserving the health and quality of life of our communities, I truly believe that we have the capacity to destroy ourselves.

Our family contributes what to us represents a fair amount of money to organizations such as the Natural Resources Defense Council. Is that “philanthropy”? Well maybe partly. But my feeling is that it is an extremely cost effective way to try to preserve what we value in the world. They have the toughest environmental lawyers in the country, and they prove it every day. It’s actually a really good value for the money.

Thus it will be with the Volt.

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Starcast Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:13 am

DonC Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:53 am
“It’s been announced that Ed Whitacre, formerly from AT&T, will be the new Chairman of GM. Seems like car industry experience will not be a major advantage for the new Board members.”

I don’t think auto industry experience is important, but manufacture experience should be.

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Herm Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:15 am

#31 DonC Says:
But yes, the lesson taken from the success of the Prius as opposed to, say, the lack of success of the hybrid Camry, is that consumers want to make a visual statement. To do that you need a distinctive shape. That little hybrid decal just isn’t enough.
………………………………………..

That is the reason why the new Insight looks just like a Prius.

They even enlarged the decal when surveys showed that it would improve sales. All this should change as the cost of hybrids comes closer to conventional cars.

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john1701a Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:19 am

Since I’ve also had the chance since then to drive the Toyota Prius
___________________

Vague references like that are really becoming problem.

Which generation?

There’s a big difference between the 2009 and 2010.

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john1701a Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:22 am

<iGM still will not allow experience of generator mode, but GM VP Jon Lauckner explains…
_________________________

That’s fine. But it’s still not excuse for not sharing any data.

We have no MPG information, not even an estimate. Why?

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CDAVIS Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:22 am

______________________________________________________
Great report Lyle!

The Volt will force Toyota to re-think Toyota’s long standing parallel hybrid (must-use-gas) approach.

Such a re-think will not be easy for Toyota because they have in the past taken a very strong public stance against series plug-in hybrids.

It will be interesting to see how Toyota goes about transitioning to series plug-in hybrids so that Toyota can improve the performance of their hybrids and also shake off their anti-plugin Must-Use-Gas image.
______________________________________________________

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BillR Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:23 am

Lyle,

What the hey, did you drive it like you stole it?

Were the tires squealing as you “rip around curves”? The ASPCA is going to be after your a$$ for abusing Mules!

Well, glad to hear you had fun, and I won’t be surprised when you’re driving the IV’ers to see Tony Posawatz in the passenger seat with a crash helmet on!

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Tagamet Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:27 am

Congrats on the ride Lyle!

Any guess how “soon” the production model’s wheels will actually hit the road. “Soon” is such a relative term.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR>/b>

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:40 am

Wait until you use one on a regular basis in the real world. Having it start from a red light next to a full gasser will be an real eye opener, every time (though I’ve heard the Mini E has a weird algorythm installed with an intial launch lag, maybe so you won’t embarrass the Lamborghini next to you). There’s nothing, and I mean nothing, like the feeling of maximum torque at 0 rpm and near linear, smooth, seamless power, as you just described. “Pep and power… smooth, refined, quiet…[electric] motor.” Welcome to the club, even if you are just a part timer for now.

@ ccombs 17
You said:
“Regular gas,…even the $4.50 of last year doesn’t make BEVs economically viable for many people.

May I humbly suggest that the analysis that your class made is perhaps incomplete representation of consumer preference? Even if gas was $50 / gallon (closer to its actual social cost), that’s still dirt cheap and its price does not form a major part of consumer’s decision making about transportation.

You seem to have maybe missed the major points of the article.

The Volt offers, thanks to full electric drive:

1. Superior off the line launch performance and instant response acceleration at any speed.
2. Smooth and seamless acceleration, which luxury vehicle makers and drivers lust for, superior to any full gasser.
3. Unmuffled quiet operation, which luxury vehicle makers and drivers lust for, superior to any full gasser.
4. The low and centerish weight distribution of the Volt’s power pack apparently inspires handling confidence for additional fun.

Those first three things, qualities intrinsic to electric drive vehicles, and the fourth, a benefit of the Volt’s particular placement of its power pack, add substantial value relative to full gassers. That’s part of what makes BEVs economically viable – that it goes to meet consumer preference and demand where it lives, with no compromise.

This is mostly why I keep urging folks on this site to get one of the fun yet inexpensive high performance electric vehicles (yes, highway capable, street legal motorcycles) now available on the market and use them around town, especially around red lights and stop signs and low speed twisty, curvy roads (assuming you’ve had formal safety training for the proper driving skills and have a motorcycle endorsement on your license). Or pay the small coin to take a Tesla test drive – make it a mini vacation. Once you get used to the differences that come with performance electric drive and start to take advantage of them, and then go back to try a full gasser, you will be appalled at what you were willing to settle for before and you’ll see first hand see that getting full performance electric drive is worth every penny. Nothing, not all the words in the world, can substitute for using an electric drive performance vehicle on a daily basis for a few months and feeling and hearing the difference.

If I sound like an enthusiast, it’s because I do just that, and every single time it puts a huge, huge smile on my face from the performance and sheer fun of the vehicle.

You said fuel price “doesn’t make BEVs economically viable for many people.”

Other potential reasons, other than fuel costs and the four listed above, why folks may prefer performance BEVs:

They are completely flexible to fuel sources. You can use 100% alternative energy sources if you make arrangements for that and you can change the energy sources that you use any time, as you desire.

You can fill up at home, while you sleep (automatic timer) if you want, at work, at parking garages, any place there’s an outlet.

There are already many thousands of electrical outlets to every gas station, and they are distributed widely, even at many remote farmhouses and mountain cabins.

BEVs don’t use imported oil, don’t send your fuel money overseas to volatil parts of the world, don’t require expensive military support or oversight, but do keep your fuel dollars in the domestic economy helping to support a transition to cleaner domestic alternative energy sources, while providing local jobs during recessions.

They are wicked cool hottie magnets and make other vehicle owners jealous.

I could go on and on and on, but you get the idea.

Fuel savings is something I didn’t even consider when I got my electric vehicle. I simply wanted the highest performance vehicle (of any drivetrain type) I could get for the low budget (so low up front price) I had for my 26 mile through town non-interstate commute. Much to my surprise, a high performance highway capable electric motorcycle best met that criterea and has exceeeded every one of my expectations.

That I’ve also saved huge amounts of money relative to a full gasser on my fuel costs and maintenance costs and down time, for a much lower projected total vehicle life cost is just frosting on the cake, not a necessary condition for considering electric for me. My savings will be going to my vehicle manufacturer that much sooner for plug and play upgrades and for my next vehicle with them (they now have two models, and multiple versions of each model).

p.s. I’ve had prior comments on highways. I was thinking of the 80 mph hundreds of miles between exits flat, straight interstates of the interior west. But more thought makes me realize that most folks live in high population density areas and experience very congested interstates that around many cities actually have quite low speed limits (50 mph) with drivers lucky to get up to the 40s mph range, and often with them just sitting in gridlock at 0 mph. Even current highway capable electrics are fine for that kind of interstate driving, and use no energy at all while stopped in gridlock traffic.

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joe g Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:41 am

This past week left me really wishing I had a car like the Volt. I drive about 12 miles to and from work daily, with 1 or 2 trips to the store a week (~10-20 miles). However, this week I made a 100 mile round trip along with a farther-than-normal shopping trip (~40 miles round trip).

In my Chevy Lumina, I used about 15 gallons to go 330 miles. In a Volt, I would use under 3 gallons to go the same distance. That’s a 500% increase in mileage (and 500% decrease in fuel consumption). Too bad a $40k or even $32k car is way too expensive for me

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john1701a Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:41 am

The Volt will force Toyota to re-think Toyota’s long standing parallel hybrid (must-use-gas) approach.
_______________________

You do realize the GM also is building and continues to invest in other hybrids… don’t you? I suggest you read the plans submitted to the task-force.

I still find it amazing that some here think a ONE-SIZE-FITS all approach is required.

SERIES and FULL hybrids will co-exist. Heck, there will be electric-only (no engine) vehicles too.

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MarkinWI Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:41 am

“the tallish Prius seems most tenuous around curves. One could sense the weight and bottom-heaviness of the Volt mule due to the 400 pound T-pack in the center.”

This has me literally salivating for GM to put the Voltec system into an SUV. Rollover problems have been reduced over the years, but the tendency could be reduced much further by the low center of gravity offered by a Voltec vehicle. This may seem cost-prohibitive at this point, but if you factor in the reltively low gas mileage of SUVs and you are willing to accept a lower all electric range, then the sales price of a Voltec SUV may not be any more disproportionate than the sales price of the Volt itself.

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ArkansasVolt Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:42 am

Thank you, Lyle for the comparison. I appreciate it.

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Big John Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:52 am

The Chevy Kodiak and GMC Topkick will stop production on July 31st.
It’s about time GM starts cutting back on these wasteful trucks. They need to concentrate on high-mileage vehicles. GM should just sell their entire truck division and focus on cars. This truck (including SUVs and Vans) mindset is what got them in this mess in the first place. Start building cars people want and get rid of your gas eating monster trucks. Let Ford continue to own the truck market. Let it go GM. Get over yourself. At least this shutdown shows you might be moving in the right direction.

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carcus1 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:55 am

“The pep and power of the smooth, refined, and quiet Volt motor can’t even be compared to the straining whine of the hybrids’ small combustion engines as they try to pull those cars up to speed.”

——–

When (if) the Volt actually gets a test drive in range extender mode, can we come back and re-visit this sentence?

Many fans here seem to think the Volt performance in range extender mode is mostly inconsequential. To me, it’s the whole point of the car.

Looking forward to see how GM has dealt with the following issues in a Series Hybrid:

Weight
Range
Acceleration
Generator efficiency losses
Software control
Customer depletion point
Power fade
Noise, Vibration, Harshness
Maintenance
Battery wear
Heat
MPG
Cost

Looking forward to seeing how my tax dollars are being spent in an open, transparent process.

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Jimbo Bond Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 10:59 am

This Volt is too expensive. 40K for 40 mile electric range and a 50mpg ICE backup. Do the math folks, it just is not worth it. By the time the Volt hits the streets a new Prius will arrive that gets better than 50 mpg and costs much less. This Chevy Hybrid just doesn’t make financial cents !

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dc Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:01 am

I hate to keep harping on these two issues, but:

This 40 miles per charge thing, to me, is still pure fantasy. We have NO, I repeat NO, testing data based on **real world** testing that bears this out. Lots of “ideal scenario” rhetoric. Believe me, I will be THRILLED to be proven wrong. THRILLED. But show me test data with the car idling in rush hour traffic, air conditioning blasting and the radio on. Show me that for an hour each way – every day. Hey, DC is statistically the wealthiest metro area in the country and thought to be a target market for this car – thats exactly what you are going to get here.

Also, show me that you are going to prevent dealers from tacking on a $10,000 “dealers markup” tag to this car. Because a $39,999 car – a tax credit does not equal $32,499 when the dealer gets done with it.

Unfortunately, I still hate the look of this car. I saw a photo of the Volt, Insight and Prius next to each other and they were practically identical. Yuck.

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carcus1 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:04 am

58 (me) add,

If you convince yourself that you’re in love with the volt, (when the EV portion of the Volt is a hit, and the range extender portion of the volt is a miss) then you’re effectively dating a very expensive “Sybil” of a car . . always sweating the emergence of the other personality.

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:06 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aR4W5vT00D4o

Vehicles are just mobile phones you can drive, with great transportation apps, it turns out.

I’m sure you all noticed how one race entrant in the TTXGP this coming weekend uses an iPhone for its dashboard control displays.
http://gas2.org/2009/06/09/electric-superbike-uses-iphone-for-its-dashboard/

Ignore today’s lessons from the motorcycle world at your own peril, y’all.

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RB Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:09 am

Thanks for the good report, Lyle. It sounds like Volt is a winner, both in itself and relative to others.

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:09 am

31 DonC …”the lesson taken from the success of the Prius as opposed to, say, the lack of success of the hybrid Camry. To do that you need a distinctive shape. That little hybrid decal just isn’t enough.”

You are talking about green or eco activist types. Those with a little extra money and want to make a statement with their purchase. “Hey, look at me I’m GREEN.” But they are fooling themselves. Prius/Insight and every other parallel hybrid or 2-mode hybrid designs (like the other hybrids made by GM) are nothing more than greenwashing. The Voltec technology is the true gem in the crop of turds that is the current hybrid market. I don’t own a hybrid and won’t own one ever. I will, however, eventually own a Voltec type vehicle. Preferably a minivan but I digress.

To extend to the car buying market as a whole your opinions about the activists who are most of the buyers for the Prius just doesn’t hold water. Most of us on this site are activists of a sort but I bet very few of us will ever buy a Prius. And even with the recent gas price spikes the Prius is still only the #3 seller in Toyota’s lineup with ~150k sold (thank you John1701a for the chart the other day btw http://gm-volt.com/2009/06/07/bob-lutz-and-gm-ambivalent-about-the-chevy-volt/ post #56). Only 10k and 20k units more than Tacoma and Tundra pickup trucks respectively btw. That’s not a market domination by the activists that’s a sidenote.

My point is that GM could start gaining market share again with bold and decisive leadership bringing Voltec out of that activist stage and making it accessible to the vast numbers of the rest of us who want to drive an eco-friendly vehicle but don’t want to pay the $4000 to $12000 premium to have a “Hybrid” sticker on their vehicle.

The benefits of mass production have been shown in every product sold in the world today. Costs go down with higher production numbers. That cannot be debated (not and be right that is). How do you bring down the costs of the Voltec drive system? How about mass production. How do you get the benefits of mass production when the Volt will only sell 10k or 100k units by the end of this decade? You can’t. But with a Voltec drive system (right sized for the application) in every vehicle GM makes this will immediately bring down the costs of the Voltec and make GM vehicles not only unique in the world but also cost efficient.

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GM Boycott Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:11 am

Rush Limbaugh and Hugh Hewitt are backing a GM boycott. Apparently 17 percent of Americans agree. I don’t know if this boycott talk will work, but I do know one thing for sure. The vast majority of Americans would have never supported the socialist bailout of General Motors. It is just really sad that the taxpayers never had a chance to vote on this. I like the Volt concept but no matter how successful it turns out it will never be worth the billions of taxpayer dollars it took to make it happen. Never.

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FME III Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:14 am

The advantages of an electric car that Lyle raved about in his post, and which many today have noted, are well known. Again, it makes me wonder why Lutz seems to think so many Americans would prefer a traditional ICE muscle car.

But # 58 carcus1 has it right: The proof of the pudding will be how the car performs in ICE mode. I, for one, expect that we will find that Weber and company will deliver a sedan that performs nearly as well in ICE mode as in all-electric. That’s what that 30 percent reserve is for.

But then, I’m a shameless optimist.

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:17 am

Cadillac plant (LGR) is being closed down an extra 4 weeks.
It was set to 6 already.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20090609/NEWS03/906090336/1004/NEWS03

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:17 am

The great part about using an iPhone (or Blackberry Storm) for a display on a motorcycle, is that when you lean the bike way over in tight turns, the display automatically rotates 90 degrees for you. What an excellent, much desired feature. I’m going to install mine that way tonight.

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Johnny Appleseed Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:18 am

@ 62 – EVO

Awesome. I always thought the iPod interface would make a much better user experience for the Volt’s control console. GM could learn so much from Apple but it looks like there are still too many arrogant and incompetent engineers employed in Detroit. When will this company learn. Maybe never.

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FME III Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:20 am

#59 Jimbo Bond:

Dis the Volt all you like. If you don’t think it’s worth it, no one will force you to buy it. But it’s pretty clear that there are many others who do think it will be worth it.

You don’t need to try to convert us to your way of thinking. Just buy whatever car you think is best for you.

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:24 am

And by lean the bike, I of course mean push the curve inside handlebar forward so the wheel turns away from the curve inside for the correct amount of countersteering while you stay bolt upright to enter the turn. Don’t ever try to use a motorcycle without proper training first. It’s completely different from car handling.

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:32 am

Remembering, of course, that production performance electric motorcycles have way less countersteer than their gas counterparts (you can barely feel it at the highest speeads), as the electrics are much lighter.

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MarkinWI Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:32 am

“But show me test data with the car idling in rush hour traffic, air conditioning blasting and the radio on. Show me that for an hour each way – every day.”

DC @ #60 – I get where you are coming from (DC, try moving to Wisconsin, I spend 0 minutes idling in rush hour traffic), but you’re not being reasonable. You’re asking for a “real world test” of a car’s gas mileage or AER when it is doing something that it is not designed to do – sit with the engine on. I think every vehicle would look wasteful and silly under that scenario, except maybe a bicycle. Is the Volt right for you? Probably not. But your best solution is not a Prius or a Volkswagen: its a train.

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N Riley Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:34 am

#57 Big John

You have your facts a little wrong. Americans are still voting with their purchase dollars by making the Ford F150 the number one purchased vehicle currently followed very closely by the Chevrolet Silverado pickup truck. They are still the best selling vehicles in the country. So, GM and Ford are making the vehicles people want to buy.

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:36 am

@ MarkinWI 73

You do realize that commuter trains, such as the increasing number of diesel electric drive baby bullets, are just Volts on metal wheels, right?

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:40 am

#37 N Riley

I believe there might be a market for a 10 mile range EREV van. However, at least IMHO, it’s probably a much smaller market than there is for a car like the Volt. Especially given that GM’s hybrid SUVs haven’t sold all that well. So, I think it’s wise for GM to make a car that appeals to as many people as possible for its first version.

Also, with only a 10 mile range–the performance and miliage in the range extended mode becomes much more important. And we have yet to see how that works out.

#64 CS Guy

The eco-activists may not be the majority of the market. But we do exist, and I think GM should capitalize on that with the Volt. Why wouldn’t they?

Also, just out of curiousity–what don’t you like about hybrids? It seems to me that they are the best alternative out of what’s currently available in terms of a)saving gasoline, and b)reducing pollution.

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Keith Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:43 am

I just wish they could get the range out to about 100 miles just on the battery. I live exactly 40 miles from work and would LOVE to go BOTH ways without burning a DROP of Arab death juice….

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:44 am

@ N Riley 74

And those popular trucks most often are not used for active commercial work (commuting is more the truth), have only one occupant, an empty bed, are towing air and have town asphalt under their off road tires. So we see that rationality plays a minor role at best in vehicle consumer preference.

So we must, of course, hold prospective electric vehicle owners to a standard that doesn’t apply to the actual markets. Since many folks want to buy electrics, for whatever kakamami reason they want, including none, built it for them. Simple. Or are vehicle makers afraid of selling vehicles and making money by meeting actual consumer demand based an actual consumer preferences?

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jonboinAR Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:47 am

Off of the top of my head the most obvious potential obstacle to mass-production of the Voltec drivetrain is the world-supply of Lithium.

What about that? Huh? Huh?

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:49 am

We need to develop a legend for repetitive coments on this site to expediate reading through all these blogs. Then you could just refer to the legend vs. typing it all out, and readers could skip/ignore stuff they dont want to read.

How about:

1. The Volt doesnt make financial sense
2. I dont like SUVs/Trucks
3. I dont like Obama
4. We are now Socialist
5. Wagoner sucks
6. Bob Lutz sucks
7. Volt is better than Prius
8. Prius is better than Volt
9. GM should make a pure BEV
10. GM stole my tax dollars
11. Hydrogen sux/fool cells
12. Biodiesel is/isnt the future
13. American cars are poor quality
14. China is coming out with X
15. ….etc…..

There are too many debates that get re-hashed to type out.
But it would be nice to just be able to scan through comments typed like “3,4, 10″.. versus having to read a 20 paragraph dissertation on someone’s political views.

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:50 am

Oh.. theres another one for the list. Thanks #79 jonboinAR .. the lithium supply debate… ugh.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

@carcus1 61

“Sybil”

Doncha mean Jekyl & Hyde?

Off topic, Limbaugh boycotts GM…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/08/rush-limbaugh-calling-for-boycott-of-gm-products/

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omegaman66 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

CS Guy as I stated in my original post I was just pulling BS out of the air. Pick the problem you fill is the most likely. Companies the size of GM don’t just jump in and stake there whole business on a technology like this in a all in type fashion this early in the game.

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solo Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

Of more importance than driving the Volt mule is the recent decision by the Supreme Court to put a stay on the sale of Chrysler Assets. If the entire 9 member court holds a hearing and votes on it. The decenting bond holders could possibly win, throwing Chrysler into liquidation. The same fate could await G.M.

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statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

#34 DaV8or said:

I’m assuming that GM has a restraining order against you Statik. lol.
================

…I would if I was them, lol.

Although they let me buy one of their cars yesterday…so they don’t hate me that much, heeh. (I have to keep buying products so I can make comebacks when I am accused of being ‘anti-GM’…getty pretty pricey to keep doing that though)

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Schmeltz Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

#80 K-Dawg:
Regarding your “legend for repetitive coments” suggestion…one of the best ideas I heard in a long time, although we may in time grow to miss the color all of those heinous topics and comments add to our daily discussions, or NOT—LOL! Technically, there already is a FAQ tab and a forums tab already. I don’t know how much your suggestion would help.

I would add “Let’s just re-make the EV-1″ to the list too–LOL.

Good times.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

@LauraM 86

“Also, with only a 10 mile range–the performance and miliage in the range extended mode becomes much more important. And we have yet to see how that works out.”

You’re right. 10AER will only require 1/4 of the Volt batt pack, which means only 1/4 of the weight which means less energy required to move the car which means a less expensive option.

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CDAVIS Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

______________________________________________________
Can’t get those i-MiEV Photos Out of My Mind!

A few threads back:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/06/05/mitsubishi-becomes-first-automker-in-world-to-mass-produce-electric-car-unveils-production-version-i-miev/
Static posted an i-MiEV photos link:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/mitsubishi-imiev-production-model/

The photos on that link have very much been on my mind.

Take a look at the photos that show the guts of the i-MiEV.

What do you see???

Answer:
A very well thought out and highly refined componentized electric power train optimized in design to lend itself to low cost high volume manufacturing. Someone has been busy!

Those i-MiEV photos speak volumes with regards to what Mitsubishi has up it’s sleave. This is a VERY serious Electric Car.

Since it may be overly geek stuff for the top executives of a traditional ICE car company to take much away from looking at those i-MiEV photos with regards to engineered electrical assembly componentization, my advice would be for those executives to have the guys from thier engineering department (Strike That…the engineering guys from a high volume computer manufacturer) explain to them the serious competitive threat those photos represent with regards to unit cost of assembly.
______________________________________________________

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

In other news, New York magazine wrote a positive review of the GM ad, and a defense of GM in general. I hope it’s not because GM is a sponsor since, IMHO, that would be a huge waste of advertising dollars.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/06/we_like_the_new_gm_ad_and_were.html#comments

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statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

#80 k-dawg said:

We need to develop a legend for repetitive coments on this site to expediate reading through all these blogs. Then you could just refer to the legend vs. typing it all out, and readers could skip/ignore stuff they dont want to read.

How about:

1. The Volt doesnt make financial sense
2. I dont like SUVs/Trucks
3. I dont like Obama
4. We are now Socialist
5. Wagoner sucks
6. Bob Lutz sucks
7. Volt is better than Prius
8. Prius is better than Volt
9. GM should make a pure BEV
10. GM stole my tax dollars
11. Hydrogen sux/fool cells
12. Biodiesel is/isnt the future
13. American cars are poor quality
14. China is coming out with X
15. ….etc…..

There are too many debates that get re-hashed to type out.
But it would be nice to just be able to scan through comments typed like “3,4, 10″.. versus having to read a 20 paragraph dissertation on someone’s political views.
====================

But what would we talk about? lol.

I’d like to add one for “Random company has a EV concept and press release, but has never actually built a car”

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

@statik 90

“I’d like to add one for “Random company has a EV concept and press release touting wonderful things…but no substance behind it””

We have that already, here it is…..
EESTOR

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Keith Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

Lyle ,

How about an online form for how would you order your Volt .

What would you want as standard equipment .

what would you want as options .

What would you want in a fully equipped Volt

Something like an order form survey .

What is it that you dont like .

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Shock Me Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

Actually Rush only said he was sympathetic to the idea of a boycott. But why expect haters to read all the way through a transcript?

Besides, given that they are bankrupt already, hasn’t there been a defacto boycott on GM for a while now?

Drop a VOLTEC drivetrain in Buick for me and I’ll come look. (After my current Buick dies of course)

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Jim in PA Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

Well I guess GM has a point in not letting people test drive a mule without the engine noise under control. I don’t know if you realize it, Lyle, but you yourself in this diary mention the whining noise of small hybrid engines as a down-side. Noise matters, since it affects perception.

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RB Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

#89 LauraM –> Thank you for the link. Interesting review of the GM ad.

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dc Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

@73 MarkinWI

Really? You dont want the car tested to see how it does in stop and go traffic? No offense, but if they are going to debut this car in DC, LA and say San Francisco they sure as hell better test it in “real world” conditions. Testing it in perfect conditions with no stopping and no “other” stuff happening is just dumb. How often does that happen? The overall miles per charge better include all types of driving – not just some meaningless straight-line number with no accessories on.

Sorry, I dont want to move to Wisconsin, even if you have a great commute But I’ll say 80% of the country has some sort of congestion on their daily commute. So our best option is a train? I’m sure thats exactly what GM is hoping to hear.

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Jim in PA Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

#65 GM Boycott – So 17% of Americans favor a GM boycott? Let me put that number in perspective. Substantially more people than that believe in UFOs and more than that believe that the US found WMDs in Iraq. To say that I am unimpressed by the opinion of 17% of Americans is a vast understatement.

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

#87 CaptJackSparrow

I was under the impression that a larger electric engine would be more efficient?

But my main point about the reduced AER was due to the increased weight and higher drag coefficent of a regular Van versus the Volt. I have no idea what the actual AER would be if they used the same system, but I’m assuming it would be much lower? Even with the same battery?

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Mark Z Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

Lyle, you should drive the VOLT as often as possible. Your unbiased reporting is refreshing.

You also deserve to have the first VOLT. Glad you’re mentioned in the top ten list:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1021315_lutz-says-letterman-is-number-7-in-line-for-volt-who-will-get-the-first-6-your-thoughts

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

@dc 96

“No offense, but if they are going to debut this car in DC, LA and say San Francisco they sure as hell better test it in “real world” conditions. Testing it in perfect conditions with no stopping and no “other” stuff happening is just dumb. How often does that happen?”

Yeah, drive the Volt in the streets of SF from the Embarcardero to Daly city or the Cliffhouse Restaurant. The hills will take the AER to at least 20, then let’s see how the RE handles things. That’s farly close to “Real Life” in SF.

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

#80 k-dawg

I volunteer my refrain for:

20. Performance electric drive is awesome. Try it, you’ll like it. I did and I do.

You know, if folks would just make the switch already, I’d shut up.

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JEC Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

85 Statik,

Ok, come clean. We are all (well at least myself) dying to know what you bought, why, and how much dough you dropped.

Then, please be sure to touch on the subject of this paragraph (I know you are just itching…)
“GM still will not allow experience of generator mode, but GM VP Jon Lauckner explains these mules were built for testing the propulsion system’s performance, not how the car interfaces with the driver. There is not even soundproofing in the mules. Thus there really is no point for GM to share a subpar generator mode experience that does not realistically represent how the actual car will behave. When the integration vehicles, which are 100% production intent Volts, hit the test roads soon, journalists will come back to experience all of the car’s functions.”

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

#95 RB

I was surprised since I didn’t like the ad. I would have gone with a more product oriented approach–a couple with a large family is looking for an SUV, but they worry about gas prices and OPEC. They wind up with a hybrid Tahoe. With an overvoice–here at GM we at GM know that not everyone can use a compact car, but that doesn’t mean you can’t improve your fuel efficiency. Or something like that.

#97 Jim in PA

The real question is how much of that 17% overlaps with GM’s clientele? If it’s the same percentage that buys Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, GM doesn’t have anything to worry about. If 50% of them were already GM customers–that means GM could lose half their market share.

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Tagamet Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

k-dawg,
The list of frequent topics sounds good and people could just add a “B” to equal the converse e.g. 7B = “Prius is better than Volt”. john1701 would use that a lot (g) and it reduces the list a bit.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

#83 Omega, “Companies the size of GM don’t just jump in and stake there whole business on a technology like this in a all in type fashion this early in the game.”

A little research shows that GM has been making series hybrid diesel systems since 1939 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Motive_Diesel). They are used in every train engine in use today.

To say that GM just can’t be expected to implement a technology that it perfected in 1939 (70 years ago) is just something I cannot fathom.

The diesel electric locomotive was only about 10% to 20% more cost efficient than the existing technology (steam) engines. The Voltec drive system is at least that much better than ICE and maybe more now that gas is back to $3 per gallon. Now is the time to take intelligent risks and not to stand by the wayside while others with a clearer vision of the future conquer the market with their inferior product.

The only reason to dislike the Volt is that it costs far too much. With mass production of the Voltec drive system and implementing Voltec in every vehicle GM produces this cost disparity between Volt and ICE vehicles goes away due to the cost reductions that can only be brought about by mass production.

The time is now. Not 3 years from now.

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George K Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

“The Volt mule is heavier, less aerodynamic, and lacking the suspension tuning the actual production Volts will have.”

I hope they don’t tune it too tight. A number of people I know, who test drove both a Toyota and Honda, chose Toyota, simply because of the “smooth ride over bumps”.

I know the car magazines all want tight suspensions. But, the vast majority of drivers (not Camaro people) prefer a smooth, quiet ride, imho.

=D~~~~

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Adrian Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

k-dawg. The Volt will cost $46k after fees upcharges and such not $33k. We need a legend to keep $$$ numbers honest. You can’t depend on the $7500 tax incentive. There will most likely be a whole new congress in power in 2011 trying to deal w/ bailout and debt burdens.

The Volt is great stuff. I hope the Supreme court review of the Chrysler deal will bring sanity back to our fascist-socialist government activities. Be it GM or another future owner (hmmm, Penske) the Volt will live on somewhere.

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GuyMan Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

#59 Jimbo…

On the Volt being two expensive, we’ve been over this MANY times.. Assuming a $32.5K Volt (40-7.5K), and an $23K Prius – Your roughly talking about a $10K hit for “owning a Volt”. Clearly that isn’t a great starting point. Assuming they both get 50MPG after the 1st 40 on the volt, so lets assume thats a wash, for long hauls (I’ll actually be suprised if the Volt gets 50 MPG highway, but that’s another thread topic). So the economics all depend on 4 items:
1) How often you drive under the 40 mile AER
2) Price of gas
3) Price of electricity
4) Length of time you own the car.

Assuming a 15 year car life.. (I believe the average ICE car life is about 9.4 year & the volt may last longer given electric drive), and assuming you drive 250 days/year (50 weeks of 5 day work weeks) or so, for 30 miles AER, at $4.00/gallon gas, my rough math takes about 13-15 years payback for a Volt.. Not “ideal” by any stretch, but “doable” long-term

The real variable, IMHO, is the price of gas, if it says at $2/gallon, the Volt will never make “simple economic” sense (excluding hidden costs to society, etc). It gas averages $4/Gallon over the life of the car, its nearly a wash, long term, once gas starts to get to $6-$8/gallon, throw in some spot shortages (gas lines, etc), then the Volt starts to make good sense – see Europe/Asian gas prices if you don’t think prices can get that high. So, IMHO it’s really a long term bet about the price of gas, do you really think gas will stay at $2/gal for the next10-15 years, we’re getting back to $3 currently, while still in a recession. Again, IMHO, even without carbon taxes, cap-trade, etc, the price of oil/gas has no where to go but up long term. Bottom line, for the “economic” crowd, it’s all about the price and availability of gas, so – “you pay your monies, you make yours choice”. Bet low, by a Prius or Fit, Bet high, buy a Volt – or buy a Prius for 5 years, then buy a Volt (depreciation is a killer then…)

There are lots of other reasons (global warming, don’t like Middle east oil, national security, etc) to go to BEV/EREV cars – but long term, the ICE will lose, even for economic reasons, that may just take a bit longer..

Just my 2 cents.
GuyMan

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Bad Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

I only hope Toyota/Honda will be successful, no one else. Why is that? I only trust Japanese quality. I couln’t care less if anyone related to Detroit auto industry get fired in 1 month, because I only intend to buy non-American.

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carcus1 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

CS Guy @ 105,

On diesel electric trains:

Disadvantages:
More weight
Less efficient in fuel use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_electric_locomotive#Disadvantages

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carcus1 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

CaptJack@82

Maybe so. I guess it depends on how many personalities we’re talking about.

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

#80 k-dawg

#90 statik

Someone should add a comprehensive list near the top of each one of Lyle’s new posts. Here’s a few I thought pop up often, I apologize if some are redundant.

Hydrogen/fuel cells/EEstor*/air cars/bio fuels will save us, batteries are a waste of time.

No one will buy a;

4 seater, small $40,000 car, six gallon gas tank/less than 400 mile range car, Prius/Insight look-a-like, Government/Socialist motors car, 40 mile AER car, car from a company that took taxpayer money/was bankrupt.

40 miles all electric range is too little and impractical/ too much and expensive.

Chinese cars will save us all/bury all of the US automakers/are terrible

40 miles @ 78% of commutes, made up by GM research, a lie, not reachable under real world conditions.

Aerodynamic cars are all ugly look-a-likes.

Don’t worry about making money, put Voltec in everything.

GM is hiding everything and should fess up.

The grid can’t handle the strain of electric cars.

Electric cars pollute more than ICE’s due to coal plants etc.

Electric cars are less efficient than ICE’s.

The world doesn’t have enough lithium(or dirt and sand, sorry couldn’t resist!)/lithium isn’t recycled.

Batteries will improve by 2/10/30 percent every year and the Volt’s range extender should be dumped now in response*

Lyle should drive the latest/production/next Volt NOW!

Publish the range extended mpg NOW!

*Thanks CaptJackSparrow

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

carcus1

Ha, welcome to the netherworld of moderation.

/hope you weren’t using your thousands of comments as a cover to spam us!

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MarkinWI Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

EVO @ #75 – Yes, but I’ve never heard of trains getting stuck in traffic jams.

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

107.
Adrian Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:01 pm .k-dawg. The Volt will cost $46k after fees upcharges and such not $33k. We need a legend to keep $$$ numbers honest.
================

i put a “~” in there to kinda say, this is just some SWAG #’s. Debating the price of the Volt is kinda pointless until June 2010, which is 6 months before the launch, which is when GM said they would most likely announce pricing. My point was, people would probably pay more $ for a more enjoyable driving experience.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

john1701, You are likely correct, when the range extender is running it will get pretty much the same gas milage as the Prius.

I have no doubt this is true.

However, somewhere around 3-5 days of the week the volts engine (in my world) will likely not start at all. Of course there is no way to confirm this as yet since the car doesn’t actually exist yet. I am however very interested in finding out!

Our friend in DC, I get that your world includes traffic jams and the ‘time’ running the AC, radio and any other accessories will absolutely dig into the full electric drive distance. The question is, why is this bad? Your AC and Radio and drive all happen full electric for “X” amount of time before you burn any gas. You still win.
Second question, how far is your commute? If you are covering 38 real miles to work with the AC “blasting” it is quite possible the extender will kick in for the last bit of the drive. I bet once you average in the electric milage with the gas motivated milage it’s going to be a darn good fuel economy number.

Fuel economy = fuel/distance

The 65km/40mile electric range easily covers our (my personal) commuting distance so NO gas burned. So kid stuff in the evening Tuesday and Thursday 120km (70miles or so) I’ll assume this is fully on the extender although it likely would not be.

So, 5 days a week 33km commuting (no gas) 165 km
Split over 2 nights, 120 km on gas.
Total 285km driven

Prius gas mileage from toyota.ca 4.1l/100km = 0.041 litres per km (not bad!) would burn 11.7 litres to drive that far.
Lacking a real finished Volt I will assume the same running on gas mileage as the Prius. 120 km on gas = 4.92 litres of gas used for 285 km covered. Notice I did not calculate using the full 65 km range. This should be close to what I would personally see with a real Volt.

Advantage Voltec.

Go Lyle!

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

110 Carcus, “On diesel electric trains:

Disadvantages:
More weight
Less efficient in fuel use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_electric_locomotive#Disadvantages”

Refer to the link you used. Read the article next time. Those are the disadvantages of “Dynamic Braking” not diesel electric drive technology.

The reason why diesel electric is the only type engine available in trains today is because of its cost savings in operating costs compared to the competing technology.

The Voltec drive system provides even greater operating cost savings to its owners over its competition, an ICE vehicle of similar size and class, than did the diesel electric locomotive. History will repeat itself.

You will be writing in this blog 3 or 4 years from now saying how you thought you were right UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY DROVE AN ELECTRIC CAR like the Volt. Or the Tesla but come on who could afford that?

My belief is that GM could regain its dominance of the auto market here in the US if (and ONLY if) it spreads Voltec to every model and brand in makes. If it just keeps the Volt for the “halo” effect and as a symbol (but with low production numbers it will have no real effect) they will continue to slide downward and eventually become a sideline player.

GM, do you want to be a leader in the auto industry? Or a bit player has-been?

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MarkinWI Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

Solo @ #84 – One justice (Ginsberg) has granted a temporary stay. Unless five members vote to consider the matter, or Ginsberg extends the stay, it will expire Friday afternoon. I don’t think it amounts to much yet. I agree that it is worth watching.

DC @ #96 – You’re not being consistent with yourself. Which is it, two hours of idling per day with your AC and radio blasting, or is it driving in stop-and-go traffic? My cousin lives in LA, and when he tells me he spends two hours a day on the freeway idling, he means it. That is something that 80% of us definitely do not experience.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

I have a little problem with how the mileage of the Volt will be calculated. I have a very strong feeling that during operation, the batt pack will kick in at some point. Say, a hard acceleration.

To make my point short and sweet, the measurement of the Range Extender should be done with the batt pack unplugged. This will eliminate any false mpg metrics. If they do not, then it is near impossible to give an accurate mpg because, just as everyone has discussed, the battery will kick in if/when it’s needed. Right?

That said, will it be possible for the small ICE to get 50MPG on a 3500lb car?

I’m skeptical, however I’m fine with a 40MPG. Just don’t lie to me.

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MarkinWI Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

Solo @ #84 – Here is a good analysis of the Chrysler stay.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/ginsburg-temporarily-blocks-chrysler-deal/

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

#114 MarkinWI

I ride the New York MTA to work. And we get stopped because of “train traffic ahead of us” every single morning. I usually spend an extra five-ten minutes on the train because of it.

Also, I’ve taken Amtrak to visit friends in Washington and Boston. And the train sometimes has to stop because of traffic. It’s not as bad as the MTA (or regular city driving, but the the acela express doesn’t go at its top speed because of train traffic.

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

119 Capjack

If the battery kicks on for accelerations, then if the engine trickle charges it back to 30% SOC, wouldnt that account for the energy used?

Maybe what is best is to just fill the tank, charge the battery, and see how far you can go. That’s probably the most useful information. Let people know how much gas they are going to use in a typical driving day.

(here comes the Dave G post)

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

@ carcus 100

The wiki reference portion that you quoted refers to three disadvantages (compared to six advantages) of regenerative (dynamic (rheostatic) braking), which is an option that not all electric vehicles use. It has nothing to do with electric drive as the motive drivetrain.

This is what CJ was referring to, the deathknell to steam locomotives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_FT

@ N Riley 74

I suggest the following two pages, on May 09 year to date top 20 vehicle and hybrid sales in the US for your edification. Cars are still 62% of the top 20 vehicle sales, the pickup truck share of top 20 vehicle sales dropped from last year and if hybrids were a group, they’d rank #5 in top 20 vehicle sales.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22501
http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN0247655620090602

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

@k-dawg 122

Then what’s the definition of “MPG in Range Extended mode” or “MPG in Charge Sustaining mode”.
Is it Ice in conjunction with the batt pack? If so then that’s not a true metrics of MPG.
This is just me but I define it as ICE only as the Electrical source. This will draw a defined line in MPG rating and not “hide” it in a mixed mode run.

What’s everyone else’s thoughts? Should an MPG be with no batt pack connected at all? or in a mixed electrical source?

It would seem a little “Shady” if it were in the mixed mode measurement.

I guess this would be a really good technical question Lyle could ask.

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

…

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

123 EVO … http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN0247655620090602

Dang! Look at the Jeep Wrangler in that link.

Sales went UP 10% yoy. What’s going on there?

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noel park Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

#108 GuyMan:

Gas is pushing right up to $3/gallon here in So Cal now. My theory is that my Volt will be my contribution to helping to keep it there. That way, I can save a ton of money on the gas for my shop trucks and other old crocks.

The way I see it, the best thing that could happen would be for gas to stay at $2/gal. If driving a Volt will help to keep it there, so much the better. Not gonna happen though, IMHO.

When you have them down, don’t let them back up.

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Larry Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

Lyle, you might be a wee bit biased towards the Volt but you’ve got me ready to pull out my wallet and become Volt-biased myself!

BTW – I live in Colorado Springs very near Pikes Peak. Tell your GM contacts I’m willing to drive a Volt to the top of Pikes Peak every day if they will send me one to test

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David K (CT) Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

k-dawg @ 122 Says:
…
(here comes the Dave G post)
=============================
Can’t we have a “numbering code” for that one too?

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

#35 StevePA

Let me know when the train is’a headin’ WEST!!!
I’m stuck down here in Southern California

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David K (CT) Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

CaptJack @ 124

I don’t think that the “drive” that will be performed to measure the ICE mpg will in any way be aggressive enough to draw from the battery.

I know that’s not “real world”, but in order to get the EPA rated mileage on my Sierra (which I actually get a bit better mileage), I almost have to be a hyper-miler.

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EVO Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

@ 126 CS Guy

How about you do some of your own research to answer your own questions, lazybones?

ok, I’ll show you how it’s done.

It’s mostly reshuffling from other Jeep models (mostly Patriot and Compass) into the always most popular of the heap Wrangler, as the entire Jeep brand was down 40%.

http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-02-2009/0005037182&EDATE=

” Chrysler LLC U.S. Sales Summary Thru May 2009
———————————————
Month Sales Vol %
Model Curr Yr Pr Yr Change
————– —— —— —
Compass 936 3,114 -70%
Patriot 2,347 8,199 -71%
Wrangler 9,294 9,260 0%
Liberty 4,615 6,228 -26%
Grand Cherokee 3,480 6,979 -50%
Commander 952 2,061 -54%
JEEP BRAND 21,624 35,841 -40%”

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Fred Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

“Volt wins hands down.”

Is anyone surprised to see Lyle choosing the Volt over the Prius or Insight? He would have to be insane to choose either one of those over the Volt on his very own “GM-Volt.com” site.

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

124 CapJack

I see what you are getting at. I think you need to leave the battery connected. Say you start your day with the battery at 30% charge, and 10 gallons of gas. You drive x miles, then have to fill up. Assume the battery is still at 30% charge. Divide your distance by the amount of gas used to fill up. Keep reapeating this, without plugging the battery in, and get an average of your MPG’s.

This way the battery is not serving as an energy souce, more like a capacitor. And you can judge the efficiency of the serial-hybrid design.

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Larry Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

Halfway down the Pikes Peak highway they have a mandatory stop to check for overheating brakes.
*** I bet the Volt, with its big battery pack, will allow you to regeneratively-brake down ANY mountain highway without the brakes getting the slightest bit hot!
(You should ask GM if the Volt is effectively immune from brake overheating!)

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

124 Capt Morgan … er … CaptJackSparrow, “Is it Ice in conjunction with the batt pack? If so then that’s not a true metrics of MPG.”

Sorry about messing up the name there. Must be subliminal…

I think you’re forgetting that the ICE engine in the Volt does not drive the wheels. If they disconnected the battery pack to test the “MPG” of the ICE it would be 0 because the vehicle would not move.

Measuring the MPG of the ICE in charge sustain mode is the closest you’re gonna get to a number but it is honestly meaningless to the Volt. You cannot compare apples to apples the way the MPG number is meant to be used.

Refer to the link on the 100 MPG Hummer I shared a few days ago (http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/hummer-fuel-economy-explained). It either gets unlimited mileage (if you drive 40 miles or less), or 165 MPG (50 miles), or 100 MPG (65 miles), or 33 MPG (200 miles driven).

Which number do you want to go by? On what day of the week? Using the vehicle to do what?

PS, gas mileage on a regular H3 is 14 City / 18 Highway.

PPS, if you want to know how important those first 40 miles can be, check out this info on the true cost of gas. http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20of%20Gasoline.pdf … note that this document assumes $1 per gallon for gas. Look on page 39 (says pg 34 at the top).

“Chevy Volt: around $33,000
Being able to say good-bye to oil/OPEC: priceless”

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

#124 Cap’n Jack
First of all time for a cold drink… Boddington’s for me today

I see what you are getting at, but since the car will never run in that condition short of a failed battery pack why does it matter?

As I posted above (116) what really matters is how many miles (kilometres) go under the wheels and how much gas goes into the tank. This number will skew widely depending on driving habits and patterns.if I routinely start driving 200km everyday I will use a lot more gas on average than if I only drive 10.

The Volt is a whole new way to travel, and the concept of 150 mpg seems incredible, but it’s absolutely possible (real world) if 100 of those miles are electric drive. (around town through the week this is very ‘plausable’ as the mythbusters would say) since that 100 miles doesn’t need to be all at once.

I’m guessing your concern is the long trip highway mileage number, and if that is the case we could have preliminary numbers on that in August. I’m betting it’ll be a prius-like number but really until the IV’s are built and tuned all we have are guesses.

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MarkinWI Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

LauraM @ 121 – Yeah, I’m being a bit flippant with DC. It’s my weakness. I tend to respond in kind. Still 5-10 minute “train jams” v. hours-long traffic jams. We’re talking apples and oranges here.

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nasaman Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

Lyle, I’m sure you’ll recall Lutz’ response to a question during a live blog about a transmission last Fall, that the Volt will use a “new, never before thought of transmission”.

As I think I commented last Fall, I think this very likely means the traction motor’s control electronics will boost the current to certain motor windings at certain rpms (as a function of accelerator pedal position) to improve acceleration at selected speeds. For example, if the accelerator is heavily depressed “off the line”, the 0-60 time might be reduced to 7 secs while it would remain 9 secs at only moderate pedal pressures. The same could apply at traction motor rpms corresponding to say 45-85 mph to achieve a “passing gear” effect. My guess is that the “mule” cars you’ve driven don’t yet have this “electronic transmission” feature but that the true Volt prototypes will have it (along with “feathered” transitions from battery to generator, excellent soundproofing & other notable refinements).

My suggestion when you drive a true Volt prototype later this year: record the 0-60 times & the 45-85 times with the pedal “floored”.

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alex_md Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

RE 119
I think battery is a big reason why the car sould get a good milage, but still 50 is hard to swallow now.

Volt vs Prius
Volt is more interesting tech. Besides If you buy Volt it is almost like buying a Prius with 3000 gal of gas made in US at $3/gal. In most places on this planet you cant get gas for $3 even today.

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

139 nasaman – a variable torque motor

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

#124 CapJack

#134 k-dawg
____________________

Good point. Start at customer depletion, drive until you have an empty tank and repeat. Never plug it in, and you test for gasoline only mileage – then it’s just like a non-plug-in parallel hybrid and only gas is used.

You could conceivably do just the opposite, never put gas in it and always plug it in. If everything is ok and you find you never need it, pull the ICE, maybe the genset too, and list them on ebay!

(Quote)
Timaaayyy!!! Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

$70 oil = good for Voltec (not so good for GM’s large, profitable vehicles, though).

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

@CS Guy 136

I get the ICE doesn’t directly run the wheels. The ICE/Genset generates electrons and Voltage potential, the batt pack stores electrons in a voltage potential. They both deliver electrons and voltage potential, Apples AND Apples. Now we all know the AER is 40 but the ICE/Genset is a theoretical 50MPG. That we have straight right?
The problems is that if you measure a run time in Charge sustaining mode it is flawed in that the batt pack get’s called on in certain scenarios of drain/stress. This is done because the Genset may be running in a slow rpm range and can’t ramp up to deliver the required electrical energy to move. This means the battery kicks in to augment the deficiency. So then is that a real ICE run measurement if the batt pack had to be called on? I don’t think so.

“Measuring the MPG of the ICE in charge sustain mode is the closest you’re gonna get to a number but it is honestly meaningless to the Volt.”

Well, considering the selling point is to be able to go beyond 40 AER, I think it’s meaningful. Measuring ICE MPG in any mode other than a disconnected traction battery is meaningless because it is not a true “Extended Range” operation. It’s an intermittently augmented by a battery pack operation. Not a 100% ICE operation.

“Chevy Volt: around $33,000″

I’ll believe it when the Loan papers show the math as $40,000 – $7,500.00 – DownPayment = Loan amount.

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

Timaaayyy!!!

$100 oil = double dip recession.

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Tom M Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

It will be very interesting to see where we go with funds for highway maintance and construction. Our state of Texas is already complaining on low income from gas taxes. I heard what Oregon wants to do and that is not acceptable.
Talked with some State and local representatives and they have no clue. Some have not even heard of the VOLT.
Lyle, thank you for keeping us informed.
Tom

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

142.jeffhre Says:
You could conceivably do just the opposite, never put gas in it and always plug it in. If everything is ok and you find you never need it, pull the ICE, maybe the genset too, and list them on ebay!

—————

Right now, I’m pretty sure i’ll need my ICE for cold starts/driving, and the occational longer trips, however i could see people doing things like this eventually to older Volts or Volt-like (serial hybrid) cars. Lots of DIY’ers out there. Take out the ICE and put in more/modern batteries. Who knows, that’s pretty far off IMO, (meaning 10 years or more)

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

#147
k-dawg Take out the ICE and put in more/modern batteries. Who knows, that’s pretty far off IMO, (meaning 10 years or more)
____________________________

I’m thinking that captjack will buy a four year old Volt and do just that!

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

#80 k-dawg

I was just thinking 3, 4 and 9.
And dammit, GM better get moving before 14 arrives!!!

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

@MuddyRoverRob 137

I’m just a stickler when it comes to specifications and how it’s derived.

My thought is for an ICE car, MPG is 100% ICE operation. Shouldn’t MPG for the Volt be the same? Otherwise why even bother giving it an MPG rating at all? You’ll just be lying. True the Volt will never operate in that mode but you will at least be 100% accurate and be 100% true to your claim.
Making a claim based on assisted or augmented performance from the batt pack will give the Volt and GM a big fat black eye they will never recover from.

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LauraM Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

#138 MarkinWI

Oh. I agree. I just didn’t want anyone to think that trains are blissfully traffic free.

That said, I agree with DC that we should find out how different cars perform while idled. Just because every car is wasteful under those circumstances doesn’t mean that some aren’t more wasteful than otheres.

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CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

Here’s some more insight on the 100 MPG Hummer from Raser Technologies Inc.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4319209.html

- 3 battery packs totalling 41kWh
- lithium-ion “super-polymer” units from Canadian supplier Electrovaya
- The packs are liquid-cooled, as is the electric motor
- has an AC converter mounted in the cargo hold to provide export power for situations as diverse as a camping trip or emergency power outage
- electric traction motor develops 200 kW peak
- The company has 12,000 “soft” orders from fleet customers
- They expect to begin high-volume production in 2011

Voltec drive system now is shown to work in a car (the Volt) a ridiculously large vehicle/SUV (Hummer) and diesel electric locomotive trains (where Voltec is the only propulsion system used across the entire industry IIRC).

Given that, what is stopping GM from putting a Voltec drive system in all its vehicles. Can’t be cost because the cost reductions of mass production will take care of that in short order and the government would probably subsidize GM if it went to them and said they want to put Voltec in all their vehicles to smooth over the initial rough spots.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

@jeffhre 148

“I’m thinking that captjack will buy a four year old Volt and do just that!”

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You know me too well. I thought of that the day they told use we were going to get furlouged (on top of other reduction in bennies) for the next 18 months. By then the lifepo4 nano or lattice will be out on the commodity market.

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

CorvetteGuy #149

That’s the spirit!!!

16. Cut out those useless nouns, adjectives, and propositions – dump all those rehashed arguments.

17. Atta boy.

18. That’s a load of B.S. (not bachelor of science)

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

@CS Guy 152

“Given that, what is stopping GM from putting a Voltec drive system in all its vehicles.”

That’s what i’m talkinbout!!!!
I want an EREV Pickup!!! Crew cab Colorado!!!

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

Autoline Daily provides first look at production Chevrolet Volt in black [w/VIDEO]

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/09/autoline-daily-provides-first-look-at-production-chevrolet-volt/

CHECKITOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

Capjack, i guess another way to say it is forget about the ICE, and just think of the car as a black box. You put energy in the box, and it goes a certain distance. Only put in gasoline as energy and see how far it goes. They dynamics of what is going on inside the black box is irrelevant. What matters is the result.

OK, time to go home and get ready for some Stanley Cup playoffs.

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k-dawg Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

156 Capjack

Thanks. Looks good, (black is my color. wish the bottom grille was chrome though). You can almost see the interior. I want to see if they fixed the display that stuck up.

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jeffhre Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

#153 CaptJackSparrow

I was gonna put after the furloughs end and the economy gets better but something CS Guy said distracted me!

#150 Battery assist is normal operation for the Volt. The key is whether the electrons were generated by a utility company or by gasoline. Don’t plug it in for several full to empty gas tank cycles and all those assisting electrons will come from gasoline.

Average the mileage from the gas used from then on and you will measure only mpg.

miles/gallons… with no plugging in = mpg of gasoline;

This stays constant whether the battery assists or not because all the electrons for propulsion are from gasoline at this point – no plugging in was allowed.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

@k-dawg 158

The black looks mysterious. But I’ve had dark color cars before. Here in CA, it gets friggin hot. Heat shrink tubing will shrink in your car, no need for a heat gun.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:55 pm

156 CapnJack

Nice…. That’s more how I picture a $40,000 car to look.
I’m still waiting for Victory Red…!

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

Reference Comment # 7

#150 Cap’n Jack + #156 WOO! looks good, black cars DO look better in the shade!

We both get how it works but are focusing on opposite sides of the equation! It is a slippery slope though since the ‘monthly fuel bill’ could vary widely depending on a pile of factors. You are absolutely correct in saying that GM marketing has to be VERY careful to get the message across. And for god sakes train the sales people!!! People tend to get a negative feeling when they know more about the product than the salesman.

How does the Prius’ mileage get calculated? If the battery is connected for the test (and you know it is) then perhaps technically they are lying as well.

I don’t care how it happens (OK that’s a lie.. the tech is cool!) the bottom line is how much (little) fuel do I use running all over creation? I think the Volt is going to look incredibly good in that light.

Of course if somebody (NOT ME!) never plugged it in their fuel savings would be much less than mine. (horrors! prius-like mileage!) I bet there is a driving/charging log in the cars code! And if there isn’t there ought to be!

Actually fuel burn rate should really be calculated by engine run hours like every other generator I have ever seen shouldn’t it?

(Did I just open up a rat hole?)

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john1701a Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

The pep and power of the smooth, refined, and quiet Volt motor can’t even be compared to…
__________________

“Diminishing Returns” is a term that is often dismissed here, despite the fact that the typical consumer is quite satisfied with the driving refinements already available.

If they aren’t seeking anything better, why do you think they will want pay extra for it?

It’s as much of a selling point as the difference between a 0-60 time reduction from 10 seconds to 9. Most consumers won’t ever benefit from it. The same applies to towing capacity. Automakers can promote the upgrade, but the usage doesn’t change. The difference is moot.

Efficiency, on the other hand, really will draw sales. However, we don’t have any data on that. So, there’s nothing to discuss yet.

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john1701a Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

How does the Prius’ mileage get calculated?
_____________________

Gas in. Miles out.

In my case: 17.935 gallons for 1,001 miles = 55.8 MPG

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

@MuddyRoverRob 162

“And for god sakes train the sales people!!! I tend to get a negative feeling when I know more about the product than the salesman.”

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I know what you mean.
OK, I get where your coming from now. The Prius has always indicated that the drive train will always consist of the ICE and the Motor. But the Volt has yet to define exactly what the MPG is based on. The Prius is simple, both (ICE & Electric Motor) in concert with the other. The Volt will be an on demand for energy/power.

But i’m still fuzzy on how the small 53KW ICE Genset will get anything close to 50MPG on a 3500lb car?

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

#165 Cap’n Jack
I expect to know for sure in about 18 months..

Have a great evening my friend!

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

@MuddyRoverRob 166

lol…..

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

It looks like the Ampera will not be available…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/09/vauxhall-employees-to-miss-out-on-building-ampera-er-ev/

“For the foreseeable future, any and all variants of the Volt will be sourced from the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant. “

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

#102 JEC said:

85 Statik,

Ok, come clean. We are all (well at least myself) dying to know what you bought, why, and how much dough you dropped.

Then, please be sure to touch on the subject of this paragraph (I know you are just itching…)
“GM still will not allow experience of generator mode, but GM VP Jon Lauckner explains these mules were built for testing the propulsion system’s performance, not how the car interfaces with the driver. There is not even soundproofing in the mules. Thus there really is no point for GM to share a subpar generator mode experience that does not realistically represent how the actual car will behave. When the integration vehicles, which are 100% production intent Volts, hit the test roads soon, journalists will come back to experience all of the car’s functions.”
=======================

I’m not going down the ‘generator’ road again, lol. No need to rehash the old stuff, I think everyone knows the story…hopefully everything goes smooth for the integration models, and the project moves on.

As to what car I bought. I bought a Cadillac SRX…I pick it up tomorrow. I always like it, but thought it was way overpriced in the ‘old days’ (not going to say how much…but I got a great deal (imo)).

I really dispise the new 2010 SRX coming out, so time was now or never…and my wife wanted something to tow a trailer…she loves camping, me not so much…so that way my excuse to get it.

Sidenote: The new SRX, isn’t even a SRX…it was developed under the name BRX, they just decided the SRX name had some value, so rather than discontinue it, they kept the name.

The 2010 ‘SRX’ rides on the new Theta Premium platform. (same as Equinox). Which makes it FWD and no V8 (very un-Cadillac). Basically, the new SRX is a luxury edition Equinox. Not too keen on having a turbo 6 cyclinder as the high end choice…or for towing. I’ll still with the Northstar V8.

New 2010 SRX:
http://photocarsonline.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/2010_cadillac_srx.jpg

New 2010 Equinox:
http://www.autoinsane.com/photos/news08/december/2010Equinox/2010Equinox09.jpg

(Quote)
CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

144 CaptJack, “Measuring ICE MPG in any mode other than a disconnected traction battery is meaningless because it is not a true “Extended Range” operation. It’s an intermittently augmented by a battery pack operation. Not a 100% ICE operation.”

I think we’re agreeing here. You say that having an MPG number with the battery pack connected is meaningless. The Volt will never be driven without the battery pack connected. Ergo, meaningless MPG numbers don’t help you in comparing the Volt to the Prius or Insight or a Jetta TDI. I’m glad that we all agree.

I think #142 Jeffhre has the answer (or the methodology) you are looking for.

If I read you correctly, you just want to be able to verify that the ICE in the Volt will get 50 MPG like they state. Maybe having a number for comparison of other serial hybrids might be useful down the line, too. Refer to post #142.
——————————————————————-
Next topic: Continuing my proselytizing to get GM to put Voltec in all their vehicles…

Here is a link to a 99 MPG 2009 Dodge Challenger, converted by popmech for an article in (I believe) their April issue. It is not finished they say “we still need to have the Hemi V8 idling and the transmission in neutral when driving in electric mode, because the power steering, power brakes and transmission lubrication pump are dependent on the gas engine.”

Notable points
- no rearview mirrors, they use 3 wide angle cameras and 7″ LCD which displays all 3 cameras at once
- solar panels built into the hood, top and trunk in a “racing stripe” type configuration (I know it won’t do much to recharge a depleted battery but come on it’s just cool).
- they obtained an identical fuel filler and welded it into the fender on the right side. We recreated a new piece of trim reading “Plug” to match the “Fuel” on the other side.
-the Hemi V8 is controlled by the stock throttle pedal, while the electric motor is controlled by a hand throttle.

http://media.origin.popularmechanics.com/documents/ecomuscle/makeover8.html

It’s only a parallel hybrid (and you know I think they’re just a scam/greenwashing) which runs on electric motor at city speeds and the V-8 at highway speeds. But it is interesting that a bunch of guys who have (pretty obviously) never tinkered with a hybrid design before could make this car that greatly improves the gas mileage of the stock 2009 Challenger on the highway (from 19 to 25 MPG – a 31% improvement in gas mileage) and adds all-electric drive for city driving for even more savings.

What is stopping the US auto makers from putting hybrid tech into all their vehicles (if they do so the cost reductions afforded by mass production will bring the price in line with non-hybrids and give the car maker a huge, huge PR edge over their competition – “we’re the only car maker with a 100% hybrid lineup of vehicles.”)

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:28 pm

CS @ 117,

My post at 110 stands.

You need to go back and read the wiki.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

171 add,

….starting from the top.

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:17 pm

Once the Volt comes out, and the general public starts to drive it, everyone, and I certainly do mean everyone, will understand why there really is not any other close comparison of the Volt to anything else.

While continued attempted comparisons of the Volt to the Prius might be some sort of technological segway for the public, ultimately everyone will understand when the Volt comes out, that there never ever was anything in the Prius worth comparing to the Volt in the first place.

It has always been a very very unworthy comparison from my perspective for anyone to come forth to compare anything about a Prius to what is in proven-process with the Volt. I have driven electric cars and when I do, I notice every technical aspect of them for the technology placed in them.

When I drive Prius vehicles on diagnostic test drives, all of the aspects of that design are to be compared to everything else I have had the responsibility to diagnose in a scientifically-rigid sequence of analysis.

The Prius is *not even in the same class whatsoever to the Voltec propulsion system*. The commentaries herein that somehow suggest that there is anything technically comparable to the new proven advancements to come out with the Volt are
*not at all valid and totally baseless*.

But the motoring public must initially have some sort of “segway” with which to begin to compare. Although the Prius is certainly a substandard way in comparison of its elderly technology (which never impressed me whatsoever technologically), to an entirely new universe of true, valid, feasible, and proven set of new technologies,

seeing will be believing.

Technologically, the Volt can not ever be compared to Hybrids ever, and such an attempt at comparison is truly technologically-dishonest to the Volt. It just never can make any sense whatsoever to ever compare a Prius to a Volt, and it continues to be absurd for people to do so.

From an established advanced L-1 educators’ perspective, these continual comparisons of the Prius to the emerging Volt technologies are not just silly, pretentious, unfounded, and ridiculous, they are always a

“Prius-marketers’ technically-bombastic attempt”

to remain “in play” against to the Voltec technologies which I am now coming to believe that they actually fear greatly.

This is why I consistently say that other OEM’s ought to be very very worried if they are not at least on a pathway for EREV’s.
and I think that they all certainly know this by now.

Let certain talk show people continue to set their foolhardiness in concrete shoes as they blast GM. Let them have their tall glass of mixed denial every night to constantly inebriate themselves from the truth of what the overwhelming majority of Americans already deeply sense:

That Voltec is not only the right thing to do, and, nor is it just a “halo” vehicle but, it represents the hope and effort to kill carbon ASAP, or the petro-greedy will turn us all to toast.

Dan Petit Austin TX.

(Quote)
CS Guy Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

Carc,
You’ll have to give me a hint. Nothing in what I’ve read in that link supports your earlier comments. Just stating that your post stands does not make your post stand.

I’ve reread it and every part of this wiki proves the superiority of the diesel electric design. Nothing actually states there is a “downside” to it. It clearly states that operational costs are superior to the competitive technology.
——————————————————-
Next topic: has anyone seen this video? It shows a good detail of the EV-1 dash and a ride in the EV-1 (starting around 1:30 it’s smooth and powerful acceleration can clearly be seen in the video – man what a great car that would have been… ) and a shot of about 10 or more EV-1s together at around 9:00 about the end of the video. Not to beat a dead horse but how sad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LE062OfrN4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fevnut.com%2Fvideo.htm&feature=player_embedded

(Quote)
Jeff Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 6:31 pm

169 statik
I really dispise the new 2010 SRX coming out, so time was now or never…and my wife wanted something to tow a trailer…she loves camping, me not so much…so that way my excuse to get it.
————————————————————————-
From a previous thread:
“After watching the Prius’ halo effect drive sales of other Toyota cars and make the company a media and environmental sweetheart, by 2006 Lutz had finally had enough.”
————————————————————————
Are you sure the Volt’s halo effect did not play a role in your purchase?

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:18 pm

#175 Jeff said:

169 statik
I really dispise the new 2010 SRX coming out, so time was now or never…and my wife wanted something to tow a trailer…she loves camping, me not so much…so that way my excuse to get it.
————————————————————————-
From a previous thread:
“After watching the Prius’ halo effect drive sales of other Toyota cars and make the company a media and environmental sweetheart, by 2006 Lutz had finally had enough.”
————————————————————————
Are you sure the Volt’s halo effect did not play a role in your purchase?
=================

lol…I’m pretty sure it didn’t. I’m digging the ‘old’ here, not the new. The new is a Equinox. (Sidenote: to anyone who didn’t read that thread quoted by…I didn’t say that, that was the Washington Post, heeh)

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 7:39 pm

CS guy @ 175,

Read the contents block at the top. Advantages and disadvantages fall under diesel-electric, NOT under dynamic breaking — see the clever little numbering system for organization?

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 9:26 pm

CS guy @ 175, (add)

Trains went from diesel-mechanical to diesel- electric because of the advantages (smoother operation, less stuff breaking). This was at the sacrifice of some fuel efficiency.

Seems that diesel-mechanical has been making some strides in the durability department and may be making a comeback over diesel-electric. One of the primary advantages —– fuel efficiency.

http://www.railway-energy.org/tfee/index.php?ID=220&TECHNOLOGYID=98&SEL=210&EXPANDALL=3

/add a pile of batteries into the mix, and you’re talking about something altogether different and not what you have been referencing in previous posts.

(Quote)
GXT Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:50 pm

Why not a hybrid Vue, Statik? Or a hybrid Highlander? Etc.?

(Quote)
ron Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:52 pm

Wow, this thread got long fast! Congrats to Statik on the new Caddy. Glad to hear the Volt is still stirring up this much passion!

(Quote)
GXT Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 11:55 pm

“it is truly in a different league altogether than any hybrid sedan on the road today”

Lyle, you know there are other hybrid sedans on the road other than the Prius and the insight, right? You know the Insight is about half the price of a Volt, right?

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 7:56 am

#179 GXT said:

Why not a hybrid Vue, Statik? Or a hybrid Highlander? Etc.?
=================

I did look around at hybrids. I know it is kind of a oxymoron to always be buying green, doing the solar panel thing and looking to buy a full EV to get off gas…then do this isn’t it?

Couple things. My wife…not so ‘concerned’ about environmental things…or EVs (sadly). She just wants something to pull a trailer a few weekends of the year. And I wanted something, reliable, fairly inexpensive (relatively speaking) with RWD and a V8 with juice to spare. That combination in a hybrid…almost impossible.

I did look at the Highlander, and actually that was choice #2 for me… the towing capacity drops in hybrid drops, but still a good number, 3,500lbs. What I didn’t like was the 3.3L V6, putting out 206HP (although with the electric motor it still apparently rates at 270), and the torque is practically non-existant at just over 200. The SRX is 320HP/315lb.ft in comparison.

I never even started to look at the Saturn Vue, no offense to Nasaman and his love for the brand, but for what I want, it is pretty useless. 4 cyclinder, about 170 HP/160 torque. Pretty cheap build quality inside and out…bad performance, FWD, etc.

The only hybrid that really does the job, isn’t much in the way of ‘hybrid’, but I did check it out for laughs. The Cadillac Escalade hybrid (or the Yukon-alike cousin). V8 (332HP/367), tows 5,800lbs.

Couple issues though, A) still only gets 20MPG B) I’d feel like a jackass driving it….which brings us to C) Pricing, in Canada it was $84,000 (thats AFTER they took of over $10K on the MSRP), plus taxes, etc the bottom line was like $96,000…c’mon (in the US it lists it as $75,000-$85,000). I’m not paying 100K to tow a trailer around a couple weekends of the year. (The Yukon priced out at around $80,000 (all-in), in the US it starts around $55K + taxes)

That really is the problem in this segment. If you need something to tow, V8 juice, RWD…you have next to no options in a SUV/Crossover, and if there is a hybrid to fit the bill…crazy expensive.

(Quote)
GeorgeB Says:
June 14th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

Last!

(Quote)
barry Says:
October 17th, 2009 at 7:59 am

as a skilled tradesman formerly employed by a lithium car battery maker,
i need to point out the realty of our winter climate resulting in the requirement for a heater/defroster that doesn’t drain out most of the EV charge before it even leaves the parking lot. in desperation, our engineers discussed using a liquid fueled heat source-which leads me to conclude that we may wind up back to the small combustion engine/generator/battery/electric motor system wherein the engine is liquid cooled, thus providing easily routed waste heat.

(Quote)

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