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Mitsubishi Becomes First Automaker in World to Mass Produce Electric Car: Unveils Production Version i MiEV

June 5th, 2009 | Posted in: BEV, Competitors

On Friday, Mitsubishi motors unveiled the production version of its i MiEV pure electric car. It begin production of the vehicle Thursday at its plant in Okayama Japan.

The car has a 16 kwh lithium-ion battery pack. The pack is 333 V and composed of 88 large format cells produced by a joint venture between Mitsubishi Motors and GS Yuasa of Japan.

The car has a 99 mile driving range and a top speed of 90 mph. The curb weight is 2200 pounds, seats four, and is rear wheel drive.

It offers a “multi entertainment system” via a 7 inch LCD screen, LED headlights, and specialized electric heating and air conditioning. There are three shift selector positions: D for gutsy torque, Eco for reduced power output and maximum range, and B for increased regenerative brake bias.

The on-board charger has 3 options: 120 v (15 amp) in 14 hours, 220 v (15 amp) in 7 hours, and quick charge 200v (3-phase, 50 kw) that will charge 80% in 30 minutes. A network of quick chargers are being installed in Japan.

Mitsubishi has said it will lease 1400 i MiEvs this year in Japan to fleet customers, and will begin taking orders in July. 5000 will be built in 2010 with the first customer sales in Japan starting in April 2010. Projected production volume for 2011 is 20,000 cars. Mitsubishi hopes to eventually bring the cars to North America.

The company calls the car “the pioneer that will open the door to the next 100 years of our automobile society.”

Pricing has been announced at 4,599,000 JY ($47 562 USD). Since the car is tax except in Japan the price effective becomes 4,380,000 JY ($45,660 USD), Furthermore the available Japanese government subsidy is an additional $14,490 off the price.

Source (Mitsubishi)

Posted by: Lyle

170 Responses to “Mitsubishi Becomes First Automaker in World to Mass Produce Electric Car: Unveils Production Version i MiEV”

chris Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:10 am

45700 for a eletric this car. 40000 for the volt doesn’t seen that bad

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Gsned57 Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:25 am

I read about the pure EV’s and think I can commute to work with this, I can get to some parks on the weekend that are close by. I’m 10 miles range short of getting to see my family (most weekends and 110 miles each way) and I’ll never get up to the lake or over to the shore with it.

Range Anxiety takes hold and I’d probably never drive further than 40 miles from my house with it. I want the volt. I want an EREV.

I must say though that it’s nice to finally see an EV on the market (even if it’s in Japan) and even better that it isn’t limited to 30 MPH.

With 1/3 the battery capacity I could still make it to work and back everyday and if it cost significantly less I’d be much more interested in buying one knowing it was just for work.

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Jim I Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:27 am

I am sure a 99 mile (maybe?) range BEV will work for many people.

But it is still E-REV for me…………..

It will be interesting to see what kind of pricing it will have when it arrives in the USA. But it looks like the Volt is not so overpriced now, does it?

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graycubed Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:29 am

Good Job Japan!

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:29 am

I’m glad you gave this its own thread, it deserves it. It is nice to get a mass produced EV on the road…too bad it is not in the US yet.

Now enter the discussion of what the ‘after rebate’ price will be in the US, lol. This is yet another example of why government subsidies are for the manufacturer and not the consumer.

(As mentioned in a older thread), if I was a betting man, I’d wager it is about $35,000 when it lands here.

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:36 am

I guess we should also mention that the range of 160km/100 miles is on the Japan 10-15 mode. That translates to about 75-85 depending on how you drive here.

The also don’t list any 0-60 time, but unofficially it is ‘under 9 seconds’

Mitsu has its own mini site for it. Here is the linky if you are interested:
(although I’m not sure if it has been updated recently…has a lot of technical things, videos, etc.)

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/special/ev/index.html

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Rashiid Amul Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:37 am

I am happy for them.

But it is too expensive, takes too long to charge, needs a higher range, and can’t take long trips.

But it is a start.

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Schmeltz Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:38 am

The Volt needs a couple more expensive competitors like this car and the Tesla. They make the Volt look like a bargain at $40,000. Plus the Volt doesn’t have the range issues that the i-Miev will have for many people.

Not trying to be negative towards the Mitsu, it’s a good start. It just reminds me again why I prefer the Volt.

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:40 am

Oh yeah, if you want to print off and make a paper desk model of the iMiev one…here is the link (I have one…my ‘first’ EV):

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/special/papercraft/pdf/color/i.pdf

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/special/papercraft/pdf/howto/i.pdf

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mikeinatl. Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:42 am

Range angst and butt ugly for $45K in the US.

This could help Volt sales a lot.

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Jim in PA Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:43 am

A few points of interest (well, to me anyway):

First – 99 mile range? How odd. Why on earth wouldn’t they tweak design to break the 100-mile barrier? Of course that doesn’t matter technically, but it would be better for advertising purposes (More than 100 miles of electric driving!!).

Second – $47,000! Holy Cow. Isn’t the Tesla sedan supposed to come in around $50k? If so, which one would YOU pick? Yeah, me too.

Third – The first thing that came to mind when I saw this was the old Neon commercial…. “Hi!” I do want an EV, but someting less cutesy would be nice.

Fourth – Despite my daggers, congrats to Mitsubishi. This is an accomplishment. I wouldn’t say it’s a GREAT accomplishment though, given the price tag. GM proved years ago with the EV1 that a good expensive BEV is feasible; but making an AFFORDABLE one is the challenge.

And finally, can someone explain to me why the drive mode (”B”) that increases regen brake bias isn’t the same as the Eco drive mode that maximumizes drive range? It seems like one of the ways to optimize drive range is to give the regen brakes bias. If Eco doesn’t maximize regen braking then I wonder exactly what it does do (limits acceleration? caps the max speed? limits heat and A/C?)

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:57 am

About US/Canada availability and delivery. The have confirmed that is coming…but not until 2011, (more officially, ‘before 2012′), and it will get a name change.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/09/new-york-2009-mitsubishi-confirms-i-miev-will-come-to-u-s/

It is interesting that the reason it is not here sooner, or why the quantites not higher, is fully blamed on lithium battery supplies…that the car itself could be produced in a much higher capacity even now. (And this is coming from a company making its own packs…and with a 2nd plant on the way).

For someone as ambitious about EVs as Mitsu is, this is a troubling reality for all potential mass producing EV makers. They are ramping as hard as they can, and only getting 7,000 packs by the end of 2010, and up to 20,000 in 2011.

I think we will see this issue spill over into the Volt’s eventual production numbers (especially as we don’t actually have a contract to get batteries at the moment). Hitting 10,000 in year 1 (2011?) and 60,000 in year 2 for packs just doesn’t seem reasonable to me considering where GM is on it right now.

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Joe Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:57 am

I can envision drivers stuck along the roads because they didn’t fully charge the battery, thinking they could make it all the way to their destination. It is like driving on a low tank of gas with no gas stations around you. I just can not see all electric cars becoming a hit for public roads. I would not buy one.

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Randy Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:00 am

Americans want a no compromise car ,this is not it.

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:00 am

Miev production is wonderful news for electric car fans like me. As soon as it is available here in central NC, I am ready to buy one. Of course, we are not usually one of the first destinations, so it make take 100 years to reach here

I’ve had earlier Mitsu cars, and they were excellent in terms of construction quality, durability, and being genuine fun to drive. One was the only car I’ve ever had that allowed me to shift gears while in reverse. T’here were other details like that, quirky but fun.

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Jim I Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:01 am

Our local news channel in Youngstown, OH just reported that GM is going to announce today that Penske Auto Group has purchased the Saturn brand.

Anybody else hear anything about this?

Here is a quick link I found on google:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124417747731388345.html

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ozonelevel Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:01 am

These are the kind of cars that give EVs a bad rap…Comedians will have a field day…

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:04 am

#12 statik says
It is interesting that the reason it is not here sooner, or why the quantites not higher, is fully blamed on lithium battery supplies…that the car itself could be produced in a much higher capacity even now. (And this is coming from a company making its own packs…and with a 2nd plant on the way).
For someone as ambitious about EVs as Mitsu is, this is a troubling reality for all potential mass producing EV makers. They are ramping as hard as they can, and only getting 7,000 packs by the end of 2010, and up to 20,000 in 2011.
———————————————-

Considering that Mitsu is part of a Japanese industrial heavyweight, I am having the idea that if they can’t do it, nobody can, in terms of getting batteries better or faster. But they may also be waiting to see how much market demand there is for this particular product.

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:13 am

#12 statik says about Volt production quantities
I think we will see this issue spill over into the Volt’s eventual production numbers (especially as we don’t actually have a contract to get batteries at the moment). Hitting 10,000 in year 1 (2011?) and 60,000 in year 2 for packs just doesn’t seem reasonable to me considering where GM is on it right now.
———————————————————————-

It may not matter. GM’s focus is elsewhere, and their only hard (meaning often talked about) commitment to the Volt is to produce a few for sale in November 2010. For that deadline GM can make a dozen or two Volts with the same system they are using to make integration vehicles. Then they declare success. Depending on demand at that time, price acceptance, government incentives and a million other factors GM then can decide how fast to ramp up or ramp down.

As we see more and more clearly, Volt’s value tor GM right now is in its symbolism. When Volt shifts slowly into being a real car, beyond simply a vision, there will be time enough to evaluate future production numbers.

There seems to be quite a different view of the iMiev by Mitsu. They seem committed to moving it systematically into high production levels, and are visibly taking each step needed to do that.

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:13 am

#11 Jim in PA said:

Second – $47,000! Holy Cow. Isn’t the Tesla sedan supposed to come in around $50k? If so, which one would YOU pick? Yeah, me too.
================
Well, you can’t really put the local tax in your landed price here, but 4.4 million yen, does translate to $45,000. (of which it is over marked up to allow for 15k of rebates)

The real problem here also is the USD falling apart, not the pricing on the car, and the dollar is likely to continue to degrade from here. When this was in development in 2006 the average USD dollar conversion to yen was about 117, now it is around 96. If the currency was stable, this would have meant a MSRP $37,000 (on a direct translation)

So the dollar certainly is working in favor of imports competing against the Volt. You do have to look at GM’s raw costs going up somewhat too, especially the battery cells. (and the USD falling creates a whole other set of wider problems for the economy…but that is another story)

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Van Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:16 am

Seems odd an EV without the cost of a range extender, and the same size battery of the Volt costs $5000 more than the Volt. This makes no sense to me.

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:17 am

Pricing has been announced at 4,599,000 JY ($47 562 USD). Since the car is tax except in Japan the price effective becomes 4,380,000 JY ($45,660 USD), Furthermore the available Japanese government subsidy is an additional $14,490 off the price

=====================

So final cost is $31, 170 USD.
If they could get it to $29,999 in North America.. i could see lots of sales in the warmer states. Starting with 20 something is a mental barrier that helps sales.

I’m glad they went to 90mph vs.70 or 80mph.

What is the range in cold weather?
Is it front wheel drive?
What is the 0-60 time, and 0-30 time?
What is the battery warranty?

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:17 am

#16 Jim I on sale of Saturn to Penske
———————
It’s also being reported in today’s WSJ (wsj.com)

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Brian Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:17 am

It seems that kind of vehicle would work well for Japan, for the US I think the EREV is a better choice. Affords more flexibility with more highways. Anybody wonder by the time the volt makes it to market they will have lost a considerable market lead.

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:19 am

#22 k-dawg says
So final cost is $31, 170 USD.
If they could get it to $29,999 in North America.. i could see lots of sales in the warmer states. Starting with 20 something is a mental barrier that helps sale
————————————————-

Keep in mind that the price is the initial price in Japan.
Later on they will set another price for North America (or several of them) depending on later quantities and other factors. I’m expecting that price to be lower.

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CDAVIS Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:20 am

______________________________________________________
Mitsubishi got it done; Big Respect!

Good job Mitsubishi MiEV Development Team!

I can imagine the immense pride the MiEV Devlopment Team and those factory line workers felt when that first MiEV rolled off the line.

I agree that this event, production EV’s rolling off an assembly line in volume at a major car manufacturer, marks a very significant milestone in the Electric Car Revolution. This is also a very positive event for the GM Voltec Program because it helps validate GM’s strategic calculation that the Electric Car is the next near term car propulsion platform standard.

I also agree w/ #5 Statik: “This is yet another example of why government subsidies are for the manufacturer and not the consumer”.

One more time….Great Job Mitsubishi!
______________________________________________________

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Texas Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:21 am

I have seen these cars in Japan (ICE version) and they are very cool. When I see the Smart Car I always laugh because it looks like a clown car but this does not give me that same feeling. It’s got good proportion for a small car.

I’m an American and I want one.

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:21 am

#21 Van says
Seems odd an EV without the cost of a range extender, and the same size battery of the Volt costs $5000 more than the Volt. This makes no sense to me
—————————————————

It is the price that we are hearing about, not the cost. The cost probably is much lower. We don’t know why the price is set as it is, but obviously they plan to sell them all (maybe even already sold).

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:25 am

#20 statik says
So the dollar certainly is working in favor of imports competing against the Volt.
—————————————————–

The example you give does not support the conclusion, as your numbers show it takes more dollars to buy the Mitsu, so that helps the Volt by making imports more expensive.

With the multiplicity of other factors involved, though, I’m not sure how much difference it makes. For example dollar/yen goes up and down over time.

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Jim in PA Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:30 am

#28 RB – Also don’t lose sight of the fact that (despite union bashers’ claims otherwise), GM is a hugely efficient mass producer of automobiles. That also helps explains why a top-of-the line Corvette costs half of similar performance European sports cars.

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Dave B Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:34 am

Finally…freedom from oil, here we come. Too bad this wasn’t developed by an American Co.

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:35 am

#30 Jim in PA says
#28 RB – Also don’t lose sight of the fact that (despite union bashers’ claims otherwise), GM is a hugely efficient mass producer of automobiles. That also helps explains why a top-of-the line Corvette costs half of similar performance European sports cars.
———————————————————-

I agree. On those occasions when GM gets its act together, they do wonders. On batteries, Mitsu may have an advantage in that they are “negotiating” with another part of their own company, while GM has been having some rough spots with suppliers. But GM still may do very well, taking advantage of government incentives and their ability to pick and choose among sources.

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benion2 Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:36 am

Looks real safe. No thanks.

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Jim in PA Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:39 am

#26 CDAVIS Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:20 am

… This is also a very positive event for the GM Voltec Program because it helps validate GM’s strategic calculation that the Electric Car is the next near term car propulsion platform standard….

—————————

I would say that it also gives GM additional validation for choosing to incorporate a range extender. The Miev shows what kind of car you need to get good range (100 miles) out of a 16 kwh battery; a very small one that will turn many people off. By using a range extender, the Volt can be a true family car with decent proportions and good looks, and all GM had to do is chop off that last 59 miles of battery range that isn’t used 80% of the time anyway. IMHO the GM range extender approach has been a brilliant exercise in cost/benefit optimization. The more pure BEVs people have to compare it with, the more brilliant it will look. Especially when you consider that larger BEVs will be very expensive due to battery costs (i.e. Tesla).

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Jim in PA Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:46 am

#32 RB – As someone who has worked as an engineer in large companies, I want to point out that sourcing materials or services internally (as Mitsu is doing with the batteries) can sometimes be counter-productive. It prevents you from playing hardball on terms and conditions, and the best (lowest) price for you means lower profits for the other division, so it is often squashed by higher ups. It is a situation that sometimes removes your power as the purchaser. It all depends on the internal structure of the company, how they track their profit centers, etc.

I think GM is in a better situation, because if LG or any external battery supply ever gets leap-frogged by another company in technology or cost, GM can switch contracts (as much as the existing contract allows, of course). And given the great flux of battery technology, I think that is the best position to be in. It’s why GM is opening a battery pack integration facility in Michigan, not a battery cell manufacturing plant.

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Mitch Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:50 am

Tribute post to many

THIRTY SIXTH!!

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Schmeltz Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:02 am

This may be another reason the i-Miev seems slow to get off the ground and imported to North America:

Sales for May, 2009 were 4352 units, -58.27% drop compared to May 2008 sales data. Source:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/02/by-the-numbers-may-2009-gm-and-ford-surprise-edition/

The more I’ve been thinking about this, the more I wonder if we will ever see the i-Miev here. Of course every car maker is hurting but Mitsu is way, way down in North America sales. It just baffles me…how can they even make a business case of selling anything in N.A., let alone an expensive electric car? This is a company that has been selling cars in the U.S. for decades, has a plant in Illinois (shared with Chrysler I believe), and can never seem to make a go of it. I wonder how Mitsu will even be able to weather the financial storm until 2011 or 12 to even start exporting these bad boys? I have my doubts N.A. will see the i-Miev for the reasons above. They can’t even seem to sell plain old ICE driven cars, fuel efficient or otherwise, why do we think they will be able to sell a $45,000 electric with a sub-100 mile range? And it’s not like Mitsu is known for legendary quality like Toyota or Honda. This sounds like a bash but I don’t mean it that way. It’s commendable what Mitsu is trying to do, but given their difficulties in the N.A. I am skeptical an all-electric car is coming soon.

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frankyB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:03 am

Statik, just remember, since the Volt need a smaller pack, that means less cell to built compare to the i-MiEV.

But I somewhat agree with you, GM will need to start building those at some point. Building a few for a testing park and ramping up the assembly line are 2 things. GM knows how to build cars, so we can question that, but they are new in building battery pack, there will be a learning curve.

10 000 battery pack or car per Year = 27 pack per day

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NZDavid Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:10 am

Statik @ 20 says: The real problem here also is the USD falling apart, not the pricing on the car, and the dollar is likely to continue to degrade from here. When this was in development in 2006 the average USD dollar conversion to yen was about 117, now it is around 96. If the currency was stable, this would have meant a MSRP $37,000 (on a direct translation)

So the dollar certainly is working in favor of imports competing against the Volt. You do have to look at GM’s raw costs going up somewhat too, especially the battery cells. (and the USD falling creates a whole other set of wider problems for the economy…but that is another story)

I think you got that the wrong way round my friend. The lower the USD goes, the cheaper homemade cars are.

So we got a car that goes to about 80 miles compared to the Volt at 40 miles + range extender. IMO the Volt looks way better, so unless its priced 5K or more under the Volt, I don’t really think its a Volt killer. 15K under the Tesla model S could be a problem, if looks are not that important to you. The Tesla should have a 50% better range though.

The limited battery problem is a big worry. Explains why there is no talk of having another Volt version one line.

PS: The projected NZ price, for next year, works out to USD39,000, and there’s no subsidies here. lol.

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Carl Covey Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:10 am

I very much agree that the EREV is clearly the electric vehicle of the future. I so much want to wait for the Volt. However, I am so saddened and angered by the sheer incompetence, greed, and indifference of corporate executives in this country and what they have done to GM (this includes UAW corporate executives) that if an EREV is produced by another company I will buy it first. The only group that I am more dissapointed by are our selfish and cowardly politicians. To put them in the driver’s seat with my car is unthinkable. I grew up loving Chevy’s and now I am heartbroken.

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NZDavid Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:16 am

frankyB @ 38. says: Statik, just remember, since the Volt need a smaller pack, that means less cell to built compare to the i-MiEV.

Nope, they are the same size, 16kWh each. I think the iMiev was looking at an optional 20kWh battery, don’t know if it will make production.

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Slave to OPEC Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:18 am

Again, a huge battery at a huge cost…

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zipdrive Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:33 am

There are three shift selector positions: D for gutsy torque, Eco for reduced power output and maximum range, and B for increased regenerative brake bias.
————————————————————
What? No R for reverse?

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carcus1 Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:36 am

On cost:

The Mitsubishi “i” is a ICE version of this car. With a 3 cylinder turbocharged and intercooled engine and a 4 speed transmission. Price was around $14,000 U.S.

Sooooo . . .even if you do a 1 for 1 price swap with the control electronics and electric motor for the ICE versions engine, tranny, cooling, exhaust etc….(imiev parts will almost certainly cost less) then add in $500/kwh on the battery. . . then you come up with an imiev that costs…

$22,000. (and probably less)

That’s my take on the future price, once full production is up and running, supply is meeting demand, and competition is in place.

Come on competition.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/mitsubishi/mitsubishi-i-review-part-3-10-12-07.asp

/p.s. anybody have the mitsubishi battery warranty info?

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EclecticDan Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:36 am

This really is a big deal. I’m so glad that we’re talking about 90 mph instead of building golf carts and calling them electric cars (http://peapodmobility.com/).

The coolest part here is the 80% charge in 30 min. That’s essentially an extra 80 miles of travel while you stop for lunch. A pretty spectacular technical achievement! Also since it’s using 220 3-phase, it’s shouldn’t be that difficult to add an “electric pump” at the corner gas station. Odds are that there’s a place to tap into the existing grid nearby. This isn’t like adding a hydrogen station, or even diesel for that matter.

Brave new world. Bring it on!

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Evil Conservative Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:38 am

#16 Jim

Penski owns exclusive rights to sell Smart Cars in the US. I have heard that he is looking to buy (or did buy) Saturn so he could have dealers ready to go to sell his smart cars. Not sure if he is going to keep the Saturn name and build the cars.

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eightzero Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 8:57 am

Like the Volt, I can’t afford it.

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carcus1 Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:05 am

#44 (me) add,

Then the question you have to ask yourself is:

Do I have the patience to wait till 2014 or so for my electric car?

And/or . . am I willing to plop down an additional $15k to $5k to be an early adopter?

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Larry McFall Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:06 am

OK! Japan is quickly proving quickly that they can out manuver the US Automotive industry as they have in the past which largely led to the debacle that GM is in.

Their iMiEV is a very good introduction to a useful road vehicle which I have all the faith that they will make work. They will bring down the production cost and probably out manuver GM by flooding the US market about the time that GM is predicting to field the VOLT.

What we all have seen, the Volt is a good looking car and the VOLTEC is a good sound drive system however, the eggheads that run GM (i.e., into the ground) for years was more concerned in producing large vehicles that mostly just set on car lots.

The idea GM had having a banking business such as GMAC finance the mass of useless vehicles for car dealers was just right down stupid and just look at some of the dealers lots. Miles of GM vehicles which the dealer can say, we have anything you want. Don’t they wish that they had a lot full of vehicles that people want to buy!

Japan will outsmart GM and it is looking like that might just be sooner than later. We don’t even have any idea if GM has built that “Integration Model” they were talking about.

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alex_md Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:09 am

Goes to show that EVs with Lion batteries may be futher away from the mainstream then many of us would like to think. I would never buy something like this in a right mind. So my conclusion is that Ford and Toyota are right and batteries still do suck big time (even the best ones). One hundred miles is not enough, I forget to plug my cell phone all the time, at least give me something I can drive for 2 days and still have some reserve for a short urgent trip, 150 miles at least. It also should look more like a car. Conclusion Mitsu – dont bother bringing it to the States.

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Mitch Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:16 am

BMW mini E has a failure at Launch…in a way

The high voltage plugs will not be available til July, meaning everyone that now has to use 110v outlet to recharge is looking at 23 hours to do so…

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/openroad/post/2009/06/67645775/1

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terryk Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:18 am

Joe 13: I can envision trucks with generators that can quick-charge your car enough to get to a charging station. Sure, you might be there awhile but you could get off the road and maybe even home.

Sure, the price is high but it’s a start. We have to start somewhere.

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:18 am

What % of the 16 kwh battery are they planning to use. I assume they would not let you discharge it to 0%. I will also assume its more that the Volt’s 50% window or 8kwh, because that will only get you 40 miles in a Volt (yes I know the iMiev is lighter/smaller).

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:19 am

Congratulations to Mitsubishi, but why doesn’t the Tesla Roadster count? They are producing dozens per week – do you really need an old style assembly line to be legit?

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:19 am

#21 Van,
An ICE is WAY cheaper than a battery that’s why. This is why the Volt makes sence.

#54 Jason M. Hendler
I’m thinking that a hand build $100k+ specialty car does not count as a mass production car. Yes you need mass production to be qualified as a mass production car.

Still it’s quite an achivement by Mitsu. I’m looking forward to the “Top Gear” review of it! Jeremy should be very funny talking about this one!

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CorvetteGuy Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:21 am

Mitsubishi hitting the ground first with a massed produced EV will once again give consumers the impression that Japanese cars are better. It may not be true, but the first one over the finish line usually wins.

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DonC Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:24 am

While the headline reads “mass production” what we have is really a marketing test. The reason is that it’s very unclear if this vehicle is anything but a niche car for a few selected markets.

The main reason is range. The 100 mile range is based on the Japanese equivalent of an EPA range. Only it’s much more mild. Real world in the US you’re probably looking at 40 or 50 miles.

If you doubt the 100 mile range is a fantasy just do some math. You have a 16 kWh battery pack. Of that Mitsubishi needs 10% reserved at the top for regen (or I guess you could spend a lot more on the braking system) and 20% reserved at the low end so the driver doesn’t kill the battery. That leaves 70% or 11 kWh. At 200 wh/mile that’s 55 mile. At a more realistic 250 wh/mile that’s 44 mile. Turn on the air conditioner or get on the freeway on a very windy day and you may not get 40 miles.

This is the real reason why Mitsubishi has no immediate plans to bring the car to NA — it’s not obvious who would buy it. Despite it’s small size but relatively roomy interior, it’s not an urban car because of the lack of range. It’s not a suburban car because of range anxiety. And it’s obviously not a rural car. Mitsubishi could of course double the size of the battery pack, which would make it saleable as far as the range was concerned, but then it would cost $15K more and it wouldn’t be saleable because of its price. (The claim that the limiting factor is the battery packs is hogwash. There are plenty of companies which are more than willing to supply packs.)

Which brings us back to why current economics dictate that the Volt and E-REV are, with the exception of a vehicle like the Aptera which is seating limited but incredibly efficient, the only winning formula. for the electrification of transportation. With E-REV you can keep the price down to merely very high levels by keeping the battery pack small, like Mitsubishi has done. However, unlike a BEV, E-REV is not at all range limited, resembling more a standard ICE vehicle than a BEV. Essentially Mitsubishi is trying to figure out if there is a market for this car; GM knows there is a market for the Volt, it just has to figure out how to keep the losses down for the first generation.

To some extent GM is benefiting from its failure with the EV1. It knew that a BEV would not work because of the range/price trade-off. It knew it couldn’t mass produce a BEV like the Aptera because of seating limitations. Having gone down the bunny trail that Mitsubishi is going down here, it knew it had to come up with a different solution. It did and came up with E-REV. And the numbers happened to pencil out. Whether this was dumb luck or whatever, GM has just come up with a wonderful and perfect solution.

Of course if gas goes to $5/gallon then there will be some market for BEVs like the i-Miev. But the Corda announced this week has a much longer range and is much more suited to NA driving than something like the i-Miev. And even with gas at $5/gallon, the BEV manufacturers will be thinking of producing 50,000 units a year and E-REV manufacturers will be thinking more along the lines of 500,000 or a 1,000,000.

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NZDavid Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:25 am

carcus1 @ 44 says /p.s. anybody have the mitsubishi battery warranty info?

Good point. It occurs to me that with Mitsubishi using more of the battery it will last much less than 10 years, so replacement cost must be taken into consideration. The Tesla model S is back in the running, maybe?

The Volt and PHEV Prius are definitely back in the running.

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:26 am

@ #1 Chris,
>> 45700 for a eletric this car. 40000 for the volt doesn’t seen
>> that bad

You have a gift for understatement!

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old man Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:30 am

CaptJack or anybody else in the know:

I have often wondered why all BEV builders have a battery consisting of thousands of wired together cells. And now mits is only using 88 large format cells. Any problem with the mits battery configuration?

Different topic, Do any know if the Tesla or any foreign builder of BEV’S get to sell their product in Japan tax free and receive the $14,490.00 subsidy. Personally I doubt it, I think Japan doesn’t help competitors of their industrial base.

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Adrian Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:35 am

After a quick scan, and seeing no one said this… this car is a death trap. I think one is safer on a motorcycle just because you know you have to be careful. I bet this completely fails crash tests.

“I’d like a $45-47k coffin with wheels please”

Good grief… LOL! Doesn’t anyone see how stupid this vehicle is? Cars are a certain size for a reason…

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NZDavid Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:37 am

DonC. The car does 125Whrs/km on the Japanese city cycle test, which would give 96 kms on 12kWh of battery. This is a little under 60 miles. I guess they get the rest on regen.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/imiev-20090605.html#more

/good flow diagram in the article.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:40 am

Short article on MSN.

http://finance.sympatico.msn.ca/investing/news/businessnews/article.aspx?cp-documentid=20252533

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:48 am

@29 RB said (and #39 NZDavid):

#20 statik says
So the dollar certainly is working in favor of imports competing against the Volt.
—————————————————–

The example you give does not support the conclusion, as your numbers show it takes more dollars to buy the Mitsu, so that helps the Volt by making imports more expensive.
======================
Sorry RB, NZDavid that was a typo. I mapped it all out then forget the ‘not’…sigh.

…I meant NOT competing, lol. I was charging out of the house as I got a call that we had a little ‘fire’ I had to put out at work….never got to proof read.

/my bad

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NZDavid Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:48 am

Old man: If Tesla wants to build the Roadster in Japan they can have the subsidy as well.

Even better, after five years the car has to be just about disassembled to pass the warrant of fitness, so lots of cheap Roadsters would get exported to NZ. lol.

/Sigh.

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Van Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:50 am

A little bit on energy recovery from regenerative braking. The amount of energy recovery runs in the range of 7% to 10%. So the same vehicle would get 7% to 10% greater fuel (energy) economy with regen brakes.

I am uncertain about the size of the i MiEV battery, it could be as big as 21 kWh with a 16kWh SOC window. At an assumed 200 kW/mile energy use rate, that gives a range of 80 miles. But to assume the information in the article is wrong is also shall we say “unsound.”

A bigger battery would help explain the price (the cost to consumers) and the long recharge times. Time will tell

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:52 am

#61 Adrian
In many parts of the world… well basically everywhere but NA cars tend to be smaller and more efficent. However I give you this, I wouldn’t want to go up against an F250 in this little car. But then I wouldn’t want to do that in my Malibu either!

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EVO Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:52 am

This article forgets the Subaru e-Stella, pricing and sales of which started simultaneously with the Mitsubishi i-miev (which from here on out I will pronounce I-Meow to match the hello kitty (®-Sanrio) stickers I expect to see on them).

The e-Stella is perfect for a town delivery runabout – taxi, mail delivery, florist, package delivery and other service providers (say, electricians), etc. Any in-town small business owner that doesn’t get an electric like the Subaru Stella is shooting themselves in the foot.

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2361789/

(I’m not counting the dozens of existing Subaru R1es until their factories start churning them out in mass production for retail sales).

Two-fer, anyone? Add the Coda with Porshe design and engineering and that makes a three-fer. June 4, 2009 was the second best day of my life (the best day was when I got my claws on my electric motorcycle) and can only be topped when I get my hands on an affordable high performance (it’s electric drive – that’s guaranteed unless the manufacturer installs a weiner lame algorythm for launches, such as BMW appears to have for the Mini E (they were probably worried about newbie e-drivers constantly rear ending slow a$$ gassers in front off the line)) mass manufactured electric CAR. That day’s finally coming, sooner rather than later, after all.

Always two years away finally got here, now. Electric drive is no longer the vehicle of the future – it’s the vehicle of right now. Yay.

Hats off and a deep respectful bow to Mitsubishi/Peugeot Citroën and Subaru/Toyota. Who would have thought that Peugeot and Toyota would be first? BTW, I absolutely Iove what Peugeot is doing with small high performance diesel off road crossovers and race track concepts (ya, I know, they gotta compete with the Audi R15 TDI diesel at 12 hours of Sebring). Add electric drive to that mix for even more off the line torque and acceleration oomph and powertrain flexibility, make sure it’s AWD for absolutle no over or understeer and they’ll have a superb all around on/off road practical high performance good looking utility vehicle. I’m drooling just thinking about it. It’ll make Jeremy Clarkson crap his pants in joy to drive one, will stomp in the Dakar Rally, and yet return excellent efficiency and won’t have a major premium over a full gasser. Huge win-win-win on that one.

Add this to Telsa Roadsters exceeding the amount of the first 10 years of Ferrari production in less than a year and proving excellent customer service, after market maintenance and upgrades and post sales follow though and support (the true acid test of new (and old) manufacturers), their new Roadster Sport edition production starting this month, the private sales of BYD F3DMs starting, the leases starting for the Smart EV, Plug in Priuses, and Mini Es and you finally have electric genuinely cracking into retail markets in a mainstream way.

The best part of all this is that each e-vehicle coming out is different in character and specs, so manufacturers do not directly compete with each other and consumers now have a wonderful and diverse range of choices of high performance e vehicles.

By the way, I just figured out that my inexpensive yet high preformance electric vehicle (motorcycle) uses the same power cells as BMW does in their electric vehicle. I never knew that I could afford anything in common with a Beemer, let alone end up using the same tech they do. Yay for me.

This is all wonderful news for the Volt, as it all paves the road for a smooth rollout of the Volt, so no need to snipe at these successes. Well done, GM, for being part of the present.

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BenHead Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:52 am

The best thing about the original MiEV designs was the four-wheel-drive with four independent in-wheel motors. Bummer they dropped that in production. Still, I’m glad to see someone has begun mass-producing, regardless of who or where.

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LauraM Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:56 am

#60 old man

No way would Tesla be allowed to sell cars in Japan much less qualify for the rebate. The Japanese market is the largest for solar power in the world, and notice that FIrst Solar doesn’t sell anything there. (And neither does any other non-Japanese solar energy company.)

This is why I think its bizarre that cars built in Japan qualify for our tax-dollar funded government rebate for electric cars. But if we applied it only to GM and Ford cars, we’d be called protectionist and in violation of the WTO. (Even though their subsidy is twice that of the US.) And the whole world would freak. Talk about double standards….

For the record, I support free trade with Canada, Mexico, and Western Europe. But I have a huge problem with the one-way “free trade” agreements we have with Japan, South Korea, and, especially, China.

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Brian Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:00 am

There is something to be said for being first. They will always have that distinction of the first mass produced EV.

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NZDavid Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:01 am

Van, the 16kWh SOC window makes more sense to me as well.

This would give a range of 128km with the balance 32km coming from regen. much more likely imo than the 12kWh example I showed before my #62.

64 Statik: I thought it odd you made this mistake. I trust the ‘fire’ was as little as you make it sound.

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NZDavid Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:05 am

Lyle, I have asked for this before, but can we have the numbers for the Volt’s AER on the Japanese 10 – 15 city cycle so we can make better comparisons?

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old man Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:10 am

#70 LauraM:

I wondered if anybody else knew how nearly impossible it was for a foreign company to set up shop in Japan and compete with their manufacturing base. Any company that could dance thru the required hoops would win the dancing with the stars show hands down.
I have no anger with them protecting their companys, my anger is with us not protecting ours.

To all:
still wondering.

Does anybody know the way Mits can use so few individual battery cells compared to other BEV’s

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N Riley Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:14 am

Congratulations to them for accomplishing this. I look forward to seeing them on the road. Not that I will be buying one at that cost. Maybe after they come down in price and go up in range a good bit. But it is a good start and we have been needing that.

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Eliezer Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:20 am

Hmmm… do I drive this or my golf cart to work? Either way, my co-workers will be laughing when I pull up into the parking lot.

Well, at least we have another EV that the Volt beats in the looks department.

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CDAVIS Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:26 am

______________________________________________________

#61 Adrian Said:
“After a quick scan, and seeing no one said this… this car is a death trap. I think one is safer on a motorcycle just because you know you have to be careful. I bet this completely fails crash tests…Doesn’t anyone see how stupid this vehicle is? Cars are a certain size for a reason…”
—

It’s not the Size/Weight…It’s the design.

2009 Ford Fusion Safety Ratings (@~3300lbs):
Driver Side – Five Stars
Front Occupant – Five Stars
Source: http://www.carseverything.com/257/2009-ford-fusion-crash-test-ratings.html

2009 GMC Yukon XL 2500 Safety Ratings (@~5600lbs):
Driver Side – Five Stars
Front Occupant – Five Stars
Source: http://www.carseverything.com/257/2009-gmc-yukon_xl_2500-crash-test-ratings.html

I would wager that the MiEV will end up having a decent safety rating.
_____________________________________________________

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noel park Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:32 am

There is a story up on the Yahoo page about the Penske Saturn deal. Careful there Roger!!

BTW, I have just been reading “Retribution – The Battle for Japan, 1944-1945″, by Max Hastings. Picked up the paperback to read in the checkout line at Costso, LOL. No Mitsus (Tototas, Hondas, Subaru, Suzukis) for Noel. Not in this life or the next. “He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it.”

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:33 am

#73 NZDavid
Since as far as we know the integration models are not even completed yet, pretty hard to get numbers without a complete car. (A car that has to go through MUCH development before it shows up in the showroom!)

We have unheard of access to the developing design, give them a wee bit of a break if they are working the current problem rather than sending us a daily report!

Having said that a few pictures of the current cars as they come to life would be great! Our good buddy Lyle would be a great place to ‘leak’ this intel…

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:33 am

If Mitsubishi is the first mass produced ev car….

do they get to say “1rst!”

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:39 am

#57 DonC said:

While the headline reads “mass production” what we have is really a marketing test. The reason is that it’s very unclear if this vehicle is anything but a niche car for a few selected markets.

The main reason is range. The 100 mile range is based on the Japanese equivalent of an EPA range. Only it’s much more mild. Real world in the US you’re probably looking at 40 or 50 miles.

If you doubt the 100 mile range is a fantasy just do some math. You have a 16 kWh battery pack. Of that Mitsubishi needs 10% reserved at the top for regen (or I guess you could spend a lot more on the braking system) and 20% reserved at the low end so the driver doesn’t kill the battery. That leaves 70% or 11 kWh. At 200 wh/mile that’s 55 mile. At a more realistic 250 wh/mile that’s 44 mile. Turn on the air conditioner or get on the freeway on a very windy day and you may not get 40 miles.
=================

They have said it will be in the US in 2011..and you say to expect only 40 miles range? Nevermind the fact we already have US road tests putting it over 70+, with the testers making no attempt to stretch out the range at all (quite the opposite in fact).

Riddle me this if you would. If the iMiev is ‘only’ getting 40 miles on 70% of a 16kW pack (11.2kW), and weighs 2,200 pounds…what does the Volt get using 50% of a 16kW pack (8kW), a cDA clearly more than the iMiev and weighing 3,500lbs (1,300 more).

Either A) you stick to your ‘bias’ on the iMiev…(and the fact you have ZERO fact to back up your claim of 40-50 miles and ‘may not get 40 miles’ on the highway with the A/C on)
or B) you probably have to say the Volt is only going to get about 20 miles of range

/you can’t have it both ways…whats it going to be? For the record what is the Volt’s range in your mind, at 1,300lbs heavier, using at least 30% less pack and a larger cDA if the iMiev is only getting 40-50 and less than 40 on the highway with the A/C on?…and can you show me your math there?

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canehdian Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:49 am

So why would I pay $47,000 for what is essentially an electric smart car? (okay maybe a LITTLE bigger, but seriously).

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:52 am

#78 noel park said:

There is a story up on the Yahoo page about the Penske Saturn deal. Careful there Roger!!

====================

I just read that myself…I really don’t know what to say about it. It is not surprising it happened I guess, has been rumoUred (note Canadian ‘U’) for awhile.

Great news for the Saturn employees/dealers, but can does Penske really have deep enough pockets to make it work…in this environment, I dunno.

I’m pretty sure his deal with GM with have a ‘non-exclusivity’ clause right from 2010 on, meaning he can sell whatever the heck he wants, side by side with the existing Saturn models. I think that has to be his plan…to be some kind of portal for cars and manufacturers that can’t break into the US market, and translate that advantage into success.

If it goes through, we certainly will see a new look Saturn, and I think a lot of ‘new’ (at least to NA) look cars…and probably some EV offerings at some point (BYD?).

He is gutsy, I’ll give him that…and I hope he makes it. A open dealer base for a ‘general store’ of automakers is ia intriguing concept.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-to-sell-Saturn-brand-to-apf-15450535.html?sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=

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LauraM Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:58 am

#74 old man

Oh, I agree. I don’t have a problem with Japan for supporting their industries. Why wouldn’t they? (Although I do blame China for their rampant theft of our intellectual property.) We’re the ones who handed them a competitive advantage by not supporting ours, and allowing them to compete in our markets on a subsidized basis. (And actually gave the southern states American tax dollars to subsidize them even further.)

However, the difference is that Japanese industries also support Japan. Apple provides more jobs in China than they do here–for products intended for the US market. They don’t even sell them in China. Microsoft builds the xbox and the zune in China. Amazon makes the Kindle there. Toyota makes cars intended for the Japanese market in Japan. And ditto for Sony.

The other problem is that when everyone starts supporting their auto industries the way the Japanese did, it leads to massive oversupply in the market place. And we wind up with a situation where the ones who win are the ones who can get the most government subsidies, not the most efficient one or the best. (Which, IMHO, means China.)

I do think that trade is important, and necessary for progress. And, honestly, the way the US auto market degenerated into a cartel/monopoly before they showed up wasn’t good for anyone. (Except the UAW.) But trade agreements should be balanced. And they should be fair. And ours with the far east definately are not.

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Herm Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:00 am

This car will be sold much cheaper in the US, and it will be a best seller.. battery prices can only come down, they are in a much better position than GM since they make their own batteries.

It looks so cute, and I bet it will be very zippy to drive around, good power and very low center of gravity. It will be a hit.

Congratulations to Mitsubishi for a historical first.

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Mitsubishi Motors i MiEV - Page 12 - Tesla Motors Club Forum Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:00 am
statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:01 am

#82 canehdian said:

So why would I pay $47,000 for what is essentially an electric smart car? (okay maybe a LITTLE bigger, but seriously).
================
You wouldn’t…neither would I.

Pricing is always geared to what the market will bare. In Japan, you have almost $17K in rebates, so it is jacked to the moon.

In the US you have $7,500 in rebates…and I think they will eventually come out around $35K (wild card being the USD value of course), at the very least I think they know they have to be cheaper than the Volt by a few thousand. Besides that, by 2011 you have Mitsu producing batteries for 2.5 years and with fairly deep capacity…one would think their costs will have come down fairly significantly (which is a perk of making you own batteries. High demand for battery packs doesn’t keep prices artifically high, like it would if you are dealing with 3rd party contracts…only raw lithium supply is the demand factor)

If bottom line comes out under $35K US…I’m in, but thats about my threshold. (there are limits to what I will overpay for, lol).

Anymore than that, and I just have to look at the Tesla Model S, (as its release date and the Volts are very similar in ‘non starter’ US markets…provided they also finally get around to opening a dealership in Toronto like they said they would).

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omnimoeish Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:07 am

The tax incentives are for the manufacturer and the customer. Here’s why.

We all want Electric Cars. The manufacturers have made it clear after they canceled development of EVs in 2003 that they didn’t think they could make any money, or sell enough of them to have it be worth the headache even if they could break even. What would happen if the government came up to you and said “if you build these, we’ll give you $14k per vehicle”?. That might perk up your ears. Then when all of the manufacturers have sunk billions into getting EVs in their lineup, supply and demand market economics can take over right about the time the tax incentives are fading out. That’s why they are giving tax incentives for all of the manufacturers, because they want there to be some pretty stiff competition by as many auto makers as possible, not just one or two.

EV’s offer such potential price savings like fuel and maintenance and possibly even depreciation, that auto makers can charge extra just for what it’s worth to the customer, not what they have to lower the price to move them.

In Japan, they have to get their engines checked for smog twice a year. These cars would save customers that expense and hassle. All of this kind of stuff gives Mitsubishi the leeway to say, I bet people will pay $35k if they never had to get their cars checked, and never have to worry about gas prices (which are at least $4/gallon all the time), add to that the tax incentive. These cars are very profitable.

And all of a sudden, every major auto maker is trying to do it too.

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Peter M Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:28 am

So why would I pay $47,000 for what is essentially an electric smart car? (okay maybe a LITTLE bigger, but seriously).
———————————————————————–
The price is irrelevant to what someone would pay, and to the cost. Price is determined by supply and demand. Let’s assume they can only produce 7,000 cars due to limited availability. If they could charge $80,000 for those first $7,000 cars, then they would. They high price reflects the high demand, and production constraints on the battery, nothing else.

Don’t read anything into the high price, you have a unique vehicle with no competition. That’s all. The iPhone is expensive also, but not because it costs alot to make.

Peter M

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EVO Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:28 am

@ 69 Ben Head

So you desire most the horrible handling that comes with more unsprung weight?

“The best thing about the original MiEV designs was … in-wheel motors. Bummer they dropped that in production.”

@ 76 Eliezer

They won’t laugh when you smoke their gassers off the line and can launch 20 mph outaccelerations past them at any time, whichever of the highway capable electric drive vehicles you prefer. These ain’t your golf cart (go-kart like lightness, handling and fun maybe).

“my co-workers will be laughing when I pull up into the parking lot.”

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DaV8or Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:29 am

This car is everything Americans fear about the EVs of the future. Tiny, ugly, expensive and limited utility. It’s a reality until there are better batteries. On the bright side, this car will do a lot of work for GM to sell Volts. The Volt will start to look like pure genius even to the average consumer in comparison.

For me to consider buying iMiev, it would have to be priced at about a 1/3 to a 1/4 of what it is now. Not going to happen, so I won’t be in the Mitsubishi dealership anytime soon.

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TBA Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:29 am

The good news is this ups the ante for other car makers. We’re getting over the hump. Real product is hitting the roads. The competition will take notice and respond. There is now too much risk in ignoring electric vehicles. Everyone will be preparing products that can launch in the next 2 to 3 years. The product will only get better and cheaper although it could still take 10 to 15 years to be become a “mass” product due to costs and productiion limitations of raw materials and batteries and automotive product development cycle time. Like plasma or LCD TV’s, it took some time to gain momentum — for years they were expensive and had limitations but now they are “cheap” and have have vastly exceeded the “old” technology. Most governments will be smart to incent the purchase of these cars as it’s in their long-term interests to reduce oil dependency and reduce greenhouse gasses. The manufactures will need help defraying the initial expenses and consumers (with the exception of early adopters) will only accept the product if available for a reasonable price. The incentives can help speed acceptance and production. Incentives should be phased out over time as the technology takes hold and production costs come down and newer/better capacitor & battery technologies are brought online over the coming years. Early adopters better have some money because they’ll want the next new better electric car everytime the next new cool one comes out. It would probably be better to lease one if the lease cost makes any sense.

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GXT Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:48 am

DonC @57, you really are the enternal Volt optimist.

I believe you have said in the past that you believe that the 3500+ lb Volt will do more than 40 miles electric when it comes out.

But now you say that the 2200LB Mitsu with the same battery (and apparently less output as it is much lighter than the volt but the 0-60 is comparable) will be lucky to get 40 miles!

Heh.

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carcus1 Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:56 am

Noel Park @ 78,

“He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it.”
___________________

Absolutely.

WWII was largely a resource war. The most important resource was (and still is) oil.

Once we placed an embargo on oil exports to Japan, the stranglehold was in place and pearl harbour and all the rest came quickly thereafter.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m certainly not justifying Japan’s brutal expansionism at the time. But neither am I proud of the fact that our 6 month fire bombing campaign, punctuated by fat man and little boy, likely killed more than a million Japanese civilians.

I find it interesting and not at all ironic that Japan and Germany now lead the world in renewable energy efforts. I hope that we can follow their lead quickly enough to avoid WWIII. If Ghawar falls off like Cantarell, and there’s no alternative of scale, then armed conflict of increased proportions will most likely be the consequence.

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noel park Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

#83 statik:

There was a story somewhere yesterday that Roger has a deal to import Samsung(!) cars. So I guess he could be selling Opels, Saturns made in Mexico, and Samsungs. There aren’t very many Smart dealers, so maybe they can stick a few Smarts in too. Just for starters, hehehe. Put the same badge on all of them and nobody can remember where they come from, LOL.

When I saw the story I said that maybe Roger is embarrassed at having too much money, so maybe this is a way to get rid of some of it. I dunno though, he bought Detoit Diesel from GM when they were just about to fold it, and now it is a world class diesel manufacturer. Come to think of it, didn’t he buy Allison also?

I’m no big fan of “The Captain”, aka Mr. Personality. Helio famously said that he only smiles on his birthday and when he wins the Indy 500. But no one can deny that he is one smart SOB.

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nasaman Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

Here’s the official news release about Penske/Saturn from Saturn & GM themselves:

http://imsaturn.com/page/breaking-news

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carcus1 Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

#94 add,

China will likely have at least 2 aircraft carriers operating by the middle of the next decade. And now we can add to that a full stable of U.S. designed and built Humvee’s.

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

This is clearly a sidenote, but it involves yet another opportunity to dump on Mark LaNeve…so you just can’t pass that up (and the thread is getting long now).

Apparently he went on C-Span and they asked him why GM doesn’t offer high mileage diesel cars in the US.

His answer? Not emission standards…but because diesel is $1.25 more per gallon in the US. Wheeeeeee….score one for the vice president of sales and marketing and his alternative universe.

As autoblog points out in their article, diesel is actually cheaper than gas a the moment ($2.35 vs. $2.52 on average last week). Although, diesel being cheaper than gas is a recent trend…it has never had a peaked much greater than 80 cents per gallon on any monthly average over the last 5 years…and on the average over those 5 years, it has been about 25 cents more expensive.

You can hear/see him in all his glory at 20:30 on the CSPAN interview answering the question of why no diesels:
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2009/06/04/Economy/A/19419/Mark+LaNeve+General+Motors+Sales+Marketing+Vice+President.aspx

Source article:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/05/gm-marketing-boss-mark-laneve-apparently-unaware-that-diesel-is/

/this guy needs to go, and bad…but I would have to admit to missing his crazy optimism and views of the world

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

#64 statik said
…I meant NOT competing, lol. I was charging out of the house as I got a call that we had a little ‘fire’ I had to put out at work….never got to proof read.
/my bad
—————————–

just shows we are keeping a close eye on you

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noel park Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

#84 LauraM & #94 carcus1:

Well said to both of you. Excellent comments here today, IMHO.

Mr. Hastings lays out the events surrounding fire bombing, Fat Man and Little Boy as well as I have seen done anywhere. One of his central points is that war ends up brutalizing all sides in the end. In the words of the old blues song, “Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself.”

I don’t spend a lot of time worrying about Japan or Germany rising up and starting WWIII, but I think Mr. Clausewitz said something like “War is the continuation fo diplomacy by other means.” And vice versa, I would say. The Japanese have been known to say that business is the equivalent of war. Hence the present state of our balance of trade with japan, and largely the present state of our auto industry. JMHO.

I don’t think that the underlying culture changes that much, even in 60+ years.

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

One of the things I love about the Miev is that it has a sense of style. Yes, it is pudgy and crazy, but it is lovable. There is a sense of fun in the design.

With the Volt GM is taking a path that tries to make electric just the same as ICE, looks the same, drives the same, no difference. I suppose the goal is a broad market segment.

But I find the Miev approach more appealing — different and proud of it.

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LauraM Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

#58 DonC

Do you think that the Volt will get 40 mile AER in the real world?

#91 DaV8or

I would buy it if it was the only electric option. And I’m sure there are plenty of other people who would. The range is more than enough for everything but the occasional vacation, and I actually think its attractive.

However, if it was between an Imiev, and the Volt, I would definately pick the Volt. (Or any EREV.) I would even pay $80,000 for the converj, and put down a deposit and wait six months. The range extender would be the deal-maker for me.

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Lev Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

It’s a $30,000 est. subcompact that will get at most 100 miles before it needs to recharged. The Volt really has no competition.

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

#103 Lev says
It’s a $30,000 est. subcompact that will get at most 100 miles before it needs to recharged. The Volt really has no competition.
——————————————————————————

Not to disagree, but the world is a big place, filled with people in many different situations, and there can be a place for Miev and Volt also. Let’s hope people have the opportunity to see both of them.

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

Autoblog is hosting a bazillion pics of the production iMiev if anyone is interested (as is Mitsu at their home site…but the gallery is easier to navigate at autoblog):

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/mitsubishi-imiev-production-model/

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Lev Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

#104
RB

Definitely true for the market at which this is targeted. But as far as the US, refer to above.

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

#105 statik says
Autoblog is hosting a bazillion pics of the production iMiev if anyone is interested
————————————————–

What we really need are some pictures of Mitsu dealers and Volt dealers who have them in stock

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

I see Mitsubishi decided to go with their own style plug… ugh.. here we go again . Why cant the Japanese just do things like everyone else?

Edit: after closer inspection, maybe they did. I think the cord i was looking at was an extension cord?

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RB Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

#106 Lev –It will be great when we can see some for sale, Volt and Mitsu, in different places. Then we can learn who buys them, and how many. (For today I’m trying to be optimistic and say to myself “not too much longer now.”

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DavidCarradine Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

Sweet. Nice price for a car that has more than twice the range of the Volt, less pollution, less maintenance, less parts, etc…

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

#105 statik says
Autoblog is hosting a bazillion pics of the production iMiev if anyone is interested
————————————————–
#107 RB said:
What we really need are some pictures of Mitsu dealers and Volt dealers who have them in stock
============================
Ain’t that the truth, lol.

Honestly, it has been so long, I still really can’t comprehend that at some point it may actually be possible to actually own one of these cars.

/can’t come soon enough…and I have virtually no standards either, I’ll take almost anything, lol

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

deleted

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LauraM Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

#100 noel park

To be fair, we brought a lot of our trade deficit on ourselves with the whole Bretton Woods system. It keeps the dollar stronger than its actual market value buy being the “reserve currency.” A strong dollar is the sign of a strong economy. But creating a situation where the dollar is stronger than the actual economy was sheer stupidity. And it was also our idea. And now we’re stuck with it. And any move away from it (which is inevitable) is going to cause a lot of pain for everyone involved. (Not just us.)

Germany (which is the world’s largest exporter with huge trade surpluses with the US) does practice fair trade. First solar (an american company) was able to use German subsidies to sell solar panels.

And, honestly, while I’m not happy about Japan, I’m not nearly as worried about them as I am about China. Japan doesn’t create acid rain in Alaska. Japan doesn’t send poachers after endangered species. Japan didn’t use lead paint on their toys after years of using regular paint in a clever attempt to create a profit without notifying the importer involved. Japan doesn’t supply every dictator in the world with weapons. Japan respects intellectual property. Japan is a democracy that believes in human rights for its citizens. Japan pays its workers a decent wage. I could go on….

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

Wouldn’t it be cheaper/better to just have Amp Motors convert a Sky for you?
http://www.ampmotorworks.com/index.html

0 to 60 mph in under 6seconds
150 miles per charge
90 mph top speed
$25,000 to convert

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Johnny Mac Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

I think the BYD electric has been coming off a real assembly line for a while now. It’s very good to see the Asians and Europeans jumping on the EV bandwagon. If it was only GM we would be in big trouble given GM’s poor history with alternative transportation (don’t forget those clowns crushed EV-1 when their customers had a multi million dollar check ready to purchase them). At least Mistubishi and others are taking the EV seriously while GM is slowly coming around while dragging out a first gen Volt at an astonishingly snail pace. Hopefully a tidal wave of EV options will hit our shores in 2011 and GM won’t know or understand what hit them.

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

113 LauraM
Japan doesn’t send poachers after endangered species.
———————

Yes they do. Japanese whale poachers are terrible.

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carcus1 Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

Statik @ 105,

“…. pics of the production iMiev …”
________________

Clear evidence that if battery prices are reasonable, then the BEV is going to be cheaper and fantastically easier to maintain than the piston engine version.

It is just soooooo much simpler. Look at the drivetrain components (pics 31 thru 38). Look at the EV system diagram (pic 39).

There’s just nothing to it!

Contrast that to what a similar photo shoot/diagram of the Mitsubishi “i” (piston version) would entail (radiator, fan, exhaust, catalytic converter, oxygen sensor, smog pump, egr valve, turbocharger, intercooler, fuel pump, fuel control unit, injectors, spark plugs, oil pumps, all the pulleys and belts, crank case, transmission, gas tank, etc… etc…..(and we haven’t even got into the guts of an electric motor vs a piston engine).

I still think this is the primary reason GM crushed the EV1. They took a look at what they had created and said “Get this thing out of here! We’ll kill ourselves!”

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/mitsubishi-imiev-production-model/

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DonC Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

#62 DavidNZ — Thanks muchly for the cite. It more or less confirms what I was thinking.

#81 Statik — I don’t have a bias against the i-Miev. It’s just that I’m taking some basic known numbers and dong a little math (more like arithmetic but close enough). Once you put down the press releases and realize that you need 250 wh/mile for a NA drive cycle you know how much BS in in the release. I did the same thing for the Corda a day or two ago and their claims for “real world driving” were accurate. Using the same identical analysis for the for the i-Miev leads to the conclusions that the 100 mile range is not credible.

FWIW the GM designers and engineers have been saying for a year that weight is not a critical issue. An important issue but not critical. The reason for this is that, when you think about it, weight is really a question of how efficient your regen is. In this regard, if you have a choice between an efficient transmission and weight you should take the transmission every day of the week.

#102 LauraM — The key number is 250 wh/mile. That’s a very reasonable number for what you’d see in most of NA. The 40 mile range is probably done using the 5 cycle EPA drive cycle since that cycle uses about 200 wh/mile. On a more aggressive 250 wh/mile cycle you’ll get less range. Just keep in mind that on the Volt the driving cycle is a bit tricky because GM could use more than the stated 50% SOC under some circumstances. IOW if GM chose to use 70% of the pack, which it could, then the range would be around 45 miles even on a more aggressive drive cycle.

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

#114 k-dawg said:

Wouldn’t it be cheaper/better to just have Amp Motors convert a Sky for you?
http://www.ampmotorworks.com/index.html

0 to 60 mph in under 6seconds
150 miles per charge
90 mph top speed
$25,000 to convert
====================

It would be, but there are always ‘buts’ when dealing with operations like this:

It would be fine… if you lived close to them to get service work done, and if you only wanted a 3 year/36,000 mile (whichever comes first) warranty, and only needed two seats, and didn’t care that GM won’t sign off to still cover your OEM Sky warranty, and that they said they were going to start delivering in early 2009 and I don’t think they have done so yet…and their website has been stagnant for ages…and still says, “Anticipated delivery in early 2009″

There is somthing to be said for cars sold from the ‘big dogs,’ especially when your talking EVs…and the 10/150 warranty. (=

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Rick Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

Nice to see a company build a true EV in less that half the time GM needs to make a legacy Volt. Even Tesla runs circles around GM in productivity. Get your act together Government Motors !

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EVO Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

It’s a whole 50% bigger than the Smart Car, which is already selling very well in the US and it is a four door.

It used to maybe be that small, efficient and cheap were kind of equivalent, but that’s sure not the case now when among the most fuel efficient (and consistent selling) vehicles sold in the US are midprice, midsize family sedans with more than their share of rear passenger leg room and small SUVs.

Don’t let kneejerk assumptions get in the way of reality.

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

@ 119 statik

3 year 36K is good. Weren’t you the one who said you didnt want any warranty, and would rather buy a new battery if needed?

from the site
———————————————
Is there a warranty on the AMP?

Advanced Mechanical Products, Inc. will warrant the batteries, drive motors, and conversion components for 3 years or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first. We are in discussions with Saturn on warranting the components of the Sky that are not affected by the conversion process.
————————————-

“How long do you expect the battery packs to last?

Our battery packs are warranted for 36 months or 36,000 miles whichever comes first. Individual cells can be replaced on an as-needed basis without replacing the entire battery pack. We expect the battery packs to retain 80% of their capacity up to 100,000 miles.”

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statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

#118 DonC said:

#81 Statik — I don’t have a bias against the i-Miev. It’s just that I’m taking some basic known numbers and dong a little math (more like arithmetic but close enough). Once you put down the press releases and realize that you need 250 wh/mile for a NA drive cycle you know how much BS in in the release. I did the same thing for the Corda a day or two ago and their claims for “real world driving” were accurate. Using the same identical analysis for the for the i-Miev leads to the conclusions that the 100 mile range is not credible.

FWIW the GM designers and engineers have been saying for a year that weight is not a critical issue. An important issue but not critical. The reason for this is that, when you think about it, weight is really a question of how efficient your regen is. In this regard, if you have a choice between an efficient transmission and weight you should take the transmission every day of the week.
=====================

Thats a lot of words Don…but I asked you to use your same measuring stick and apply it to the Volt’s MPC. You got the iMiev at 40-50 miles, and maybe not even 40 on the highway with the A/C on.

The way I see it, you have three choices:

A) Admit you are playing loose with the numbers to knock the iMiev down
B) Give us a MPC number on the Volt that contradicts GM and your old postings by a huge margin using your ‘basic known numbers’
C) Ignore my request completely and/or sidestep

I always took you as a reasonable guy, but I don’t know here. The fact is you can’t give the Volt credit for 40 miles without giving the iMiev at least 70…that is just common sense.

You are talking 40% more pack capacity in the iMiev(even with your made up numbers on the iMiev’s battery usage), 1,300 pounds difference in net weight(which ain’t nothing regardless of what you say, thats 35% less weight…not 5%), and a lower drag.

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Mike D Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

I’m not here to “troll” but i really really dislike this car. That being said, i love most of the other EV’s out there, and i don’t dislike mitsubishi or any of their other models as well. But this car is CRAP!

Quote from Motor Trend article:

http://wot.motortrend.com/6550829/green/mitsubishi-i-miev-electric-car-priced-near-45k-in-japan-boasts-100-mile-range/index.html

“Mitsubishi execs are touting the small four-door as the “the pioneer that will open the door to the next 100 years of our automobile society.” It’s the first vehicle under the automaker’s Mitsubishi Motors Group Environmental Vision 2020 that devotes further funds and societal awareness to EVs and their development.”

“societal awareness” to the team means shoving what they presume to be a trendy tech-y name like “i-miev” (i don’t remember which &%$^ing letters are supposed to be capitalized and i don’t care), when that name is neither trendy, or techy. It sounds retarted. I GUARANTEE any American that buys one of these is going to tell their friends what the name is, and may have to repeat it four or five times in order for them to fully understand, because if you took your friend outside to see your car, pointed to the name and said “read this”, 99% of them would still not be able to say it. You have to point to it in writing, say it to your friend slowly a few times, and THEN they’ll understand it. But GUARANTEED they’ll never call your car by it’s name again, they’ll just refer to it as “your car”. I didn’t think i was this capable of hating the name of a car so much!

It feels like the entire concept of this vehicle was made by someone in 1970 who was given a task to envision the future and then to design a vehicle visually and name it.

This is the type of car that the electric car hater who has the uninformed predisposition that all electric cars are retartedly small, ugly, overpriced, underpowered and horribly styled, sees on the road and points and says “SEE WHAT I MEAN?!?!”

I can’t argue, they’re right with this car.

I’ll add that of course all electric cars are good because they all help reduce overall EV costs, etc. etc. . .but still, not going to be a winner in America accept and probably won’t ever reach suburban USA, only NYC, LA, DC.

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

to get 100 miles, the imiev must mean 16kwh of useable pack. Which would mean 8kwh for the Volt = 40 miles, 16kwh for the iMiev = 80 miles (but its lighter/more aerodynamic? (whats the Cd?)) so maybe they can pull off the 100miles.

Still wont work in cold weather. And depending on the weight distribution, i’m a little concerned about RWD.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

Instead of the egg shapes to lower the Cd, why dont they go for sleeker stretched shapes? You can still get 4 seats in there.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

#166 k-dawg:

Did you happen to see Larry King last night? It was so horrible I had to leave the room.

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

#124 Mike D said:

““societal awareness” to the team means shoving what they presume to be a trendy tech-y name like “i-miev” (i don’t remember which &%$^ing letters are supposed to be capitalized and i don’t care), when that name is neither trendy, or techy. It sounds retarted. I GUARANTEE any American that buys one of these is going to tell their friends what the name is, and may have to repeat it four or five times in order for them to fully understand, because if you took your friend outside to see your car, pointed to the name and said “read this”, 99% of them would still not be able to say it. You have to point to it in writing, say it to your friend slowly a few times, and THEN they’ll understand it. But GUARANTEED they’ll never call your car by it’s name again, they’ll just refer to it as “your car”. I didn’t think i was this capable of hating the name of a car so much!”
==================

Good news..they already said it will have another name in North America, lol.

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

Explanation of the driving modes.
————————————————–

The car offers three driving modes: Standard, Eco, and “B”. The Eco mode limits the engine’s output to 18 kilowatts (one third of peak power), to increase the range of a single charge—and the decline in performance was substantial. “B” mode added more regenerative braking on downhill stretches and when the car is coasting, to recharge the pack more aggressively. In that mode, the regeneration felt “grabby,” and far less smooth than, for example, the highly praised new system in the 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid. Unfortunately, the infotainment screen wasn’t activated, so no power-flow diagrams or numeric data were available

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CDAVIS Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

______________________________________________________
Big Question:

What happens to the car making landscape when an improved Mitsubishi i-MiEV, and other EV cars like it, are available for sale (in high volume) in America with a 200 mile plus range and sticker MSRP under USD$30,000? Let’s include to that a quick charge infrastructure that starts becoming common place for 15min/50% charges meaning that a 15 minute charge gets you 100 miles.

That is an important question to ask because that will be the automotive EV landscape inside of six years; guaranteed. In automotive manufacturing terms, six years is a short timeframe (~ two fast tracked development cycles).

Cars will become componentized Electric Appliances which will radically impact the automotive industry at an amazingly rapid rate.

The world has changed.

The Electric Car Revolution is here.
______________________________________________________

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k-dawg Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

noel park Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:23 pm .#166 k-dawg:

Did you happen to see Larry King last night? It was so horrible I had to leave the room.
———————-

No i missed it. I was watching hockey. I’ll have to youtube it. What was it about?

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LauraM Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

#116 k-dawg

As I understood it, the Japanese have a quota of 1000 a year, and they stick to that? So they are allowed to do it by international law? That’s not to say that I think it’s OK. It’s not. I’m absolutely against it.

But, at least IMHO, it has much less of an impact than the Chinese poaching that can wipe out huge populations of various species almost overnight. That’s not to mention China’s contribution to a)the greenhouse effect, and b)air pollution and habitat contamination throughout the entire world….

I’m not saying we’re innocent in those respects by any stretch. And I believe that they are trying….at least with air pollution and carbon….

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carcus1 Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

This driving a BEV looks like pure hell. I don’t know if I could handle the pressure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBzcnlAx8Ms

/kidding, of course. My guess is that range will vary anywhere between 60 and 100 miles, depending on conditions.

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ccombs Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

Man, such strong opinions on this car. Imho, it will be great for the Japanese market and other small Asian countries like Taiwan. Too expensive for China. I could totally see those weird girls in Japan who still like Hello Kitty when they are 30 years old driving it cause they think it is cute. Scratch the “weird” part, they seem to be the norm from my observations. It will sell, to the puzzlement of Americans like myself who can’t understand the ridiculous Japanese obsession with cuteness.

In any event, I say don’t knock an EV- we need all we can get. Not enough will sell in the US to give EVs a bad rep. Teslas have already given EVs enough of the sexy, sporty rep. We need cars like the Focus EV and Volt to give them the most important rep: normal and practical.

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Dave K. Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

I am going to make another pitch to my condo association.

Last year I recommended all garages be outfitted with 220v service for car charging. “Simply raise the monthly dues by $5 to cover it”. The reply was that each owner can hire a licensed installer and get the plans cleared through the association. I replied that it would be much more “cost effective and uniform” to get a bid on the entire 180 unit job. I went on to project a fiscal 10 year gain of $9000 (plus interest). And mentioned that the outlets would add value to each property.

We currently have 2 plug 110v shared outlets in each garage. Use is billed to the association. The association said they will police use of the 110v plugs for car charging.

yes we can?

=D~

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N Riley Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

#40 Carl Covey

I grew up loving Chevy’s and now I am heartbroken.
—————————————-

I know just how you feel. I am so sadden by all this mess that I would like to get my hands on…………………

But the weekend is almost here and I am going to put this stuff to the back of my mind and think of better times and places. Have a good weekend Carl.

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alex_md Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

When you stick a bike into this thing would you have to take a wheel off? How about a sailboard? Cars like this is exactly what gives EVs bad name – cost a lot, no utility, no range. I refuse to compare this thing to sell phone or computer. For EV to catch up they have to be better than ICE cars in Price, handling, acceleration, durability, resale value and ownership costs or at least some of the above. So far this one can do only one thing – not to use gas, everything else it can’t do. The whole point or a car is to have job done, not to use less gas. If I want to not use gas I will have no car at all and live in a small apartment. New technology has to be BETTER then the old one before it is accepted, not via gov rebates. Cell phones were expensive but they had NO CORD, laptops were expensive but they were portable and could do the same thing as your desktop. Tesla is expensive and impractical but it uses no gas, makes you look cool and beats just about anything out there 0-30, which is the job of the sports car.

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noel park Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

#131 k-dawg:

Japanese whale poaching. They had some helicopter video of the whole process. Pretty tough to watch.

#132 LauraM:

According to the Sea Sheperd people on Larry King last night, the Japanese whalers they filmed were comepletely outside of international laws and conventions, and operating in an off limits preserve. Whether we take them at their word or not, it was a pretty grisly business.

That said, I agree with you that China is a lot bigger issue for us than Japan today. I say that China will do to Japan what Japan did to us. Never mind Taiwan, Korea, Malaysia, et al. It’s just a giant cumulative impact.

Some of the best stuff I have read on these issues are the works of Professor Chalmers Johnson of UC San Diego, formerly of UC Berkeley. His books, “Blowback”, The Sorrows of Empire”, and “Nemesis” (the so-called “Blowback Trilogy”) relate the decline of the US manufacturing base to compomises we have made on trade issues to maintain our massive oversease military base complex. Never mind the impact on our economy and our society of the costs of same.

I agree with you on the need to protect our domestic businesses. I don’t see much political will out there to do anything much through our government. I am just saying that we all need to be aware of the impact of each individual decision we make on our balance of trade, and thus the long term viability of our economy. If we think that our own best interests are served by ignoring same, we can’t whine when the implosion comes.

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N Riley Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

#57 DonC

Having gone down the bunny trail that Mitsubishi is going down here, it knew it had to come up with a different solution. It did and came up with E-REV. And the numbers happened to pencil out. Whether this was dumb luck or whatever, GM has just come up with a wonderful and perfect solution.
——————————————

You may remember that with the EV-1, GM had already decided it needed to address range anxiety. They did it by creating an EV-1 with a range extending ICE motor as a concept car. The Volt is just a modern EV-1 with range extender. GM did it a decade ago, but knew the market was not ready for it because of battery cost and weight (and probably dozens of other reasons). So, yes, GM has gone down this bunny trail twice.

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Mark Z Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

This is the EV that will be the poster child for the gas companies. ExxonMobil has already shown an ugly little EV during their PBS TV promos last year when praising their battery technology.

Those first year lease numbers are not too far from the EV-1. I say that GM was the first to mass produce and market the modern electric car, especially when you consider the limited area it was leased and the frustration generated when they stopped leasing them.

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Herm Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 5:32 pm

A couple of points, if you are worried about range, how about a genset on a trailer?.. second point, imagine if Mitsubishi sold the car cheap and leased the battery?

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DonC Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

#123 statik

I’m using the identical approach. I don’t know why you think it’s different. To begin with, my starting assumption is the i-Miev battery pack is the same size as the Volt’s. Do you think they’re differently sized? Do you think the i-Miev is going to use the entire pack? Essentially Mitsubishi can use a bit more of the pack — GM is being somewhat concervative — but it can’t possibly use more than 11 kWh on a consistent basis.

I also don’t understand why you think the i-Miev will have lower drag. My guess is that its CdA will be the same or larger than the Volt’s. I also believe that the tires on the Volt will have a lower CoRR.

Finally, you seem to think that weight is a huge factor but it’s really not. It’s a factor but not as important as either drag or drive train losses. When I said that the importance of weight was inversely proportional to the regen efficiency I was serious. If regen were 100% efficient then acceleration and climbing would not be factors at all, and the only difference weight would make would be in rolling resistance losses. But those are minor. For 1000 pounds you’re only looking at 30 Newtons. That’s not a big deal, and it’s even less of a deal if the heavier vehicle has tires with a lower CoRR.

But let’s look at the probable drive train losses. The Volt has a 100 kW (peak) motor. The i-Miev has a 47 kW (peak) motor. The very small — we could accurately say undersized — motor on the i-Miev will make for serous drive train losses at higher speeds. That motor is not built for going 70 mph. You can go that fast but, when you do, the small motor will have to work overtime, and when it does so it will burn kWh much faster than a larger motor would. (Note the motor is being used to part the air not move weight).

So what kind of losses are we looking at? We can get a fairly good answer by looking at this graph which Tesla engineering has provided.

https://www.teslamotors.com/display_data.php?data_name=range_blog4

The Tesla has a 147 kW motor. At 70 mph it uses about 300 wh/mile. (Note that the Tesla doesn’t weigh that much more than the i-Miev). Of that amount, 50 wh/mile is attributable to rolling resistance (weight). (Note that weight is more or less a constant — it’s the same loss at 10 mph as it is at 80 mph). But look at the drive train losses. At 70 mph those losses are 150 wh/mile, or three times as much. Given that the i-Miev’s losses are going to look a whole lot worse than this, and that at 70 or 80 mph the i-Miev might be using upwards of 400 wh/mile, it’s just very difficult to believe that, given the 11 or 12 kWh available in its battery pack, the i-Miev is going to get much more range than 40-50 miles on a NA drive cycle.

This is why I say that the limited range of the i-Miev is the reason why Mitsubishi has no current plans to bring the i-Miev to NA. I believe they have the numbers and understand the range issue quite well.

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:46 pm

#122 k-dawg said:

@ 119 statik

3 year 36K is good. Weren’t you the one who said you didnt want any warranty, and would rather buy a new battery if needed?

from the site
================================

No, I said I wanted just a standard industry warranty akin to ICE products, and to be able to have it serviced inside whatever the vehicles electric range was (and 4 seats). The 3/36 is too light from a 3rd party group..especially when GM doesn’t honor your OEM warranty anymore…but the 10/150 is way too intrusive, puts such a big premium on EVs sold in the US.

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

#138 Noel Park

I agree that whale fishing in general is appalling. Whether its legal or not–there’s evidence that whales might be sentient. Eating them is, well, I don’t like to think about it. And now the Japanese are using their trade influence to protect their “right” to exterminate the bluefin tuna.

However, China’s environmental degradation dwarfs anything by Japan. Because of their massive population, and because many species are used in Chinese medicine, they are the main impetus behind most poaching. Elephants. The Rhino. Tigers. Seahorses. Lizards. Turtles. Even the North American Black Bear.

Additionally, China is big enough that their pollution becomes everyone else’s problem. There are studies showing that as much as 1/3 of the mercury found in the US rivers are from China. If they do become the most powerful nation in the world (and at this point, I think it’s pretty much inevitable), no one will be able to provide any moderating influence. And pollution and habitat destruction along with global warming are a bigger danger to most species than poaching.

Yes, they are trying to cut down on pollution–they almost have to given how hard it is to breathe in China. But policing those kinds of regulations almost requires a degree of individual freedom that I can’t see the Chinese government allowing. This is not just about the US anymore. It’s about saving the planet. And I think that Japan, at least, sees that. They may not care about saving the bluefin tuna. But they care about air pollution and global warming.

I agree with you that we vote with our dollars. And, I buy North American as much I possibly can. (And, for me, that includes Mexico–I don’t have a problem with Ford and GM building plants there as long as they’re not using US taxpayer dollars to do it.) But I’ll buy from any country other than China given the choice. And that includes products manufactured by American companies in China. (And I definitely won’t shop in Walmart, who, IMHO, created the whole outsourcing movement.)

(Quote)
Zach Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:52 pm

Final price is approx $31,000 US$? That actually sounds kinda steep, considering how ugly it is, lol.

What is the Japanese government subsidy? (looking it up right now)

And #22, it’s RWD. I read it in the post.

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 10:55 pm

#142 DonC said:

I’m using the identical approach. I don’t know why you think it’s different. To begin with, my starting assumption is the i-Miev battery pack is the same size as the Volt’s. Do you think they’re differently sized? Do you think the i-Miev is going to use the entire pack? Essentially Mitsubishi can use a bit more of the pack — GM is being somewhat concervative — but it can’t possibly use more than 11 kWh on a consistent basis.

I also don’t understand why you think the i-Miev will have lower drag. My guess is that its CdA will be the same or larger than the Volt’s. I also believe that the tires on the Volt will have a lower CoRR.

Finally, you seem to think that weight is a huge factor but it’s really not. It’s a factor but not as important as either drag or drive train losses. When I said that the importance of weight was inversely proportional to the regen efficiency I was serious. If regen were 100% efficient then acceleration and climbing would not be factors at all, and the only difference weight would make would be in rolling resistance losses. But those are minor. For 1000 pounds you’re only looking at 30 Newtons. That’s not a big deal, and it’s even less of a deal if the heavier vehicle has tires with a lower CoRR.

But let’s look at the probable drive train losses. The Volt has a 100 kW (peak) motor. The i-Miev has a 47 kW (peak) motor. The very small — we could accurately say undersized — motor on the i-Miev will make for serous drive train losses at higher speeds. That motor is not built for going 70 mph. You can go that fast but, when you do, the small motor will have to work overtime, and when it does so it will burn kWh much faster than a larger motor would. (Note the motor is being used to part the air not move weight).

So what kind of losses are we looking at? We can get a fairly good answer by looking at this graph which Tesla engineering has provided.

https://www.teslamotors.com/display_data.php?data_name=range_blog4

The Tesla has a 147 kW motor. At 70 mph it uses about 300 wh/mile. (Note that the Tesla doesn’t weigh that much more than the i-Miev). Of that amount, 50 wh/mile is attributable to rolling resistance (weight). (Note that weight is more or less a constant — it’s the same loss at 10 mph as it is at 80 mph). But look at the drive train losses. At 70 mph those losses are 150 wh/mile, or three times as much. Given that the i-Miev’s losses are going to look a whole lot worse than this, and that at 70 or 80 mph the i-Miev might be using upwards of 400 wh/mile, it’s just very difficult to believe that, given the 11 or 12 kWh available in its battery pack, the i-Miev is going to get much more range than 40-50 miles on a NA drive cycle.

This is why I say that the limited range of the i-Miev is the reason why Mitsubishi has no current plans to bring the i-Miev to NA. I believe they have the numbers and understand the range issue quite well.
====================
Again, a lot of words Don.

I’m not asking you to justify how you got to the numbers for the iMiev in #123. I’m asking you to run the numbers on the Volt’s MPC.

I see 100% how you are rationalizing the math for the iMiev, and I’m only asking you to use those same standards on the Volt’s setup.

You clearly state the iMiev is only going to get 40-50 miles on a charge in ‘real world driving’, and maybe under 40 on the highway with the A/C on.

The iMiev is 40% lighter, and has 35% more pack capacity. As for your belief that the Volt will have a lower Cd/CdA, I know direct quotes from the project leads don’t satisfy you for the Volt (.27-.28), but the iMiev has a Cd of .24 with a front area of 2.17m2, so thats a 5.6. No chance the Volt is below that.

http://carinfo.jp/ge/Mitsubishi/i+MiEV/%A1%A1/%5B%A5%D9%A1%BC%A5%B9%5D/yt2007-0/r2400/

As for your belief that the Volt’s tires will have a lower CoRR, also seems pretty suspect. The Volt rolls on P225/45R18, low resistance rubber (that even GM in its press release stats, “adds ‘up to’ one mile more all-electric range as compared to similar tires” The iMiev rolls with 145/65R15s in the front and 175/55R15 in the back, low resistance or not…the iMiev tires are going to be a better performer. (I know the concept iMiev had low resistant tires…but I can find nothing on the production yet to confirm or deny, so I won’t say it does or does not)

Link to GM tires and the “1 mile more range” quote:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/10/gm-announces-goodyear-to-supply-chevy-volt-low-rolling-resistance-tires-and-bose-to-supply-its-energy-efficient-stereo-system/

/so one more time…just shoe me your math on the Volt using the same ‘basic known’ principles/metrics you invoked on the iMiev

(Not sure if you just ignore posts here, or at Motor Trend, Autoblog and everywhere else…Mitsu CONFIRMED the iMiev to North America BEFORE 2012…that means they are selling here in 2011…so it is crazy to still be saying, “This is why I say that the limited range of the i-Miev is the reason why Mitsubishi has no current plans to bring the i-Miev to NA”)

Link to official announcement of ‘before 2012′ at NY autoshow:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/09/new-york-2009-mitsubishi-confirms-i-miev-will-come-to-u-s/

(Quote)
koz Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:00 pm

All of those assuming the I-Miev has a lower CdA, look at it’s shap. Smaller and lighter does not necessarily mean lesser CdA. The Prius Cd is significantly less than the Tesla Roadster’s. The Volt’s and Pius’ Cd looks to be significantly less thanthe stubby shaped I-miev and the A’s (frontal area) appear similar. Does anybody have any real data for the I-Miev’s CdA?

If total pack size is 16KWh, expect “real” everyday range of 60-70 miles. Don’t expect miracles of physics, KWh/mile won’t be that much different from the Volt’s. Perhaps a little better in the city from lower weight and very similar on the highway (perhaps a little worse if Volt Cd is better). But this is initial range. Since the Volt is starting with spare capacity, there is a reasonable chance of still having 40 miles range after several years. For the I-Miev, expect 48-56 miles range (80% of the initial 60-70 miles) after 5 years or so.

Good to hear they have started production. This is a big step forward, but I believe it’s important to keep expectations realistic.

(Quote)
koz Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:12 pm

Koz #147

Editor wouldn’t let me save this…

Statik, I didn’t see your Cd comments before posting. 2.4 seems low but maybe if it’s narrow enough and low enough…

(Quote)
JasonN Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 11:18 pm

Tesla’s Sedan is a luxury $50K car and it qualifies for American subsidies. It’s comfy, long-rage, all electric, and beautiful. Google it and watch some vids. It’s a hot looking ride. Like all new technologies, the luxury market breaks first. Expect to see their technologies in future GM products. Thanks to Tesla for private market R&D.

Seriously, this is great news because if all EVs in production hit today we’d have more buyers than cars. Nobody is going to have EVs sitting on a lot awaiting buyers unless the car stinks.

The Chevy Volt’s edge is that it will be a hybrid. It’s a different market. People that need the backup of a gasoline engine to make them comfortable will drive Volt sales in the US. For rural sales, this is likely a deal breaker for most cost competitors.

For wide adoption, the US needs a $20K EV. That’s likely several years away unless China drops an unforeseen EV bomb.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 2:01 am

Ohh this is good. Lots of weapons to choose from for the imiev vs. volt range cage match.

Mace, spear, pike, throwing axe, . . . or perhaps …….
tp://www.evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/

Let’s Get It On!

(Quote)
Darius Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 3:02 am

Of course Mitsu shall take price cream – they are the champions they are the first.
It is difficult to estimate cost per unit since they are far away from development cost recovery.

(Quote)
Anthony BC Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 5:14 am

Alright Mitsubishi !!! Thanks for getting the ball rolling!!!

Can’t wait for 2011 to GO EV!!! The more EVs, the better !!!

GO EV!!!

(Quote)
teds Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 10:54 am

1) needs a gen-set trailer.
2) I would like to see a breakdown on cost to see why it costs so much.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 7:21 pm

an interesting test drive on a plug-in Prius converted by Toyota, the one with the doubled up nimh pack.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/01/prius-plug-in.html

(Quote)
stas peterson Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 7:37 pm

#65,

Don’t you know that all Tesals are manufactiured by Lotus in Britain.? Then the cars without a motor are shipped to California where the EC drivetrain is bolted in.

Tesla’s manufacturing is essentially all farmed out.

So the Tesla IS an import. Or didn’t you know that?

Actually the Tesla and the Dodge Circuit are one and the same car built by Lotus for both, and the BEV powertrain is is installed by Tesla or Dodge respectively. The Dodge Circuit is a generation more advanced with a real prismatic battery pack that is safe against Thermal runaway fires and, meltdown and designed by A123.

The Dodge is not yet on sale and the prices unset, but the rumored price is half the price of the older Tesla design.

(Quote)
stas peterson Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

This Samrt car sized Mitsu will not have a happy life, I predict.

It is way too expensive for a runabout, and urban charging is difficult to impossible, as parking is at a premium. In suburbia charging facilities can more easily exist, but then range is insufficient .

(Quote)
Herm Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 8:55 pm

#153 teds Says:

1) needs a gen-set trailer.
2) I would like to see a breakdown on cost to see why it costs so much.

…………………………………………………

It was estimated in a previous thread that it uses a 23kwh pack, the 16kwh in the article is a “usable” capacity. The 16kwh pack in the Volt costs GM about $12k, so we can guess the iMiev pack is about $17k.. work it out from there. Compare it to a Honda Fit or a Toyota Yaris and start adding electric components.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 7:18 am

new competition from China, 250 mile all electric range (at slow speeds):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/features/article6432436.ece

New Power, by contrast, claims to have developed an electric four-seater with a range of 250 miles and plans to bring it to the UK “within the next couple of years”. Known as the Zhong Tai (the name translates roughly as “peace and safety for the people”), it has lithium-ion batteries that can be recharged in 6-8 hours from a conventional socket, or in two hours from a high-power recharging point. With a top speed of 75mph and an estimated price tag of between £16,300 and £20,500 in Britain, the Zhong Tai could be both practical and affordable enough to make drivers part with their internal combustion engines for good.

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 9:21 am

Guess you made your choice from #123

C) Ignore my request completely and/or sidestep

(Quote)
Herm Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

Don is missing one important piece of information , the 16kwh number that they mention is “usable” capacity, actual capacity is probably around 23kwh.

(Quote)
Jason The Saj Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

Wait, let me get this straight?

They’re building 5,000 of these in 2010. GM is building 10,000 in 2010, right?

This thing goes for $47,000. Volt goes for under $40,000.

Volt gets 40 miles but can be extended to 300 or so on a tank. This gets 90 miles and a 14 hr re-charge.

Volt is a nice looking car…this thing is fugly.

I’ll take a Volt please!!!

(Quote)
kdawg Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm

143. statik Says:
June 5th, 2009 at 9:46 pm .#122 k-dawg said:

@ 119 statik

3 year 36K is good. Weren’t you the one who said you didnt want any warranty, and would rather buy a new battery if needed?

from the site
================================

No, I said I wanted just a standard industry warranty akin to ICE products, and to be able to have it serviced inside whatever the vehicles electric range was (and 4 seats). The 3/36 is too light from a 3rd party group..especially when GM doesn’t honor your OEM warranty anymore…but the 10/150 is way too intrusive, puts such a big premium on EVs sold in the US.

——————-

You said you did not want a warranty on the Volts battery pack because you would be paying for a 2nd battery.

(Quote)
kdawg Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

146 statik
…. (Not sure if you just ignore posts here, or at Motor Trend, Autoblog and everywhere else…Mitsu CONFIRMED the iMiev to North America BEFORE 2012…that means they are selling here in 2011…..

======

I think you are anti-GM. Any announcement that GM makes and you tear it apart. Mitsubishi makes an announcement and you treat it like it’s God’s word.

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

#162 kdawg said:

You said you did not want a warranty on the Volts battery pack because you would be paying for a 2nd battery.
——————-

Yes, that is also true, because in that situation there was major compensation attached to no warranty, which was greater than the warranty itself….I didn’t just say I wanted the Volt warranty free.

At the time, we were talking about GM saying they were costing in a full second pack into the MSRP (as per Lutz). My response was, I would gladly wave all warranty ON THE PACK, if they reduce the MSRP by the price of that extra pack (about $8,000 we estimated). I still want the ’standard’ car warranty on all the other things you normally expect.

/big difference between saying a 3/36 warranty is ok after paying $25,000 to have a battery install in a car you already own, and what we/I was discussing in that thread

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 9:27 pm

#163 kdawg said:

“I think you are anti-GM. Any announcement that GM makes and you tear it apart. Mitsubishi makes an announcement and you treat it like it’s God’s word.”
——
Your free to think anything you like, doesn’t bother me…I think whatever I like too, lol.

Of course, I think 6 new GM products I’ve bought in the last decade, the Pontiac G6 in my driveway now…and the fact I’m going to beat up my local salesman TOMORROW to buy a Cadillac SRX to pull the trailor I just bought my wife proves otherwise. I live in a GM town (well close) and I have always owned at least one GM product.

I also think GM, is a terribly run company, both financially and ‘on the ground’….and I’ve have been around GM intimately the last 15 years or so, I’ve seen so many non-follow throughs, half-truths and missed deadlines on regular projects, it is mind boggling.

The two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

So yes, when something smells fishy, or too fantastic, or seems unlikely compared to what everyone else in the industry is saying or doing…I don’t believe them, especially on such a ambitious program as the volt…and so far, that has been the right call the past 2.5 years.

I realize that having me come here and be negative can be a bummer if you are looking for the silver lining and/or hoping for the best. However, if what I am saying continually ends up being ture, that is not ‘anti-GM,’ that is just being accurate.

Sidenote:
I like the i-MiEV, no question-no secret, and although I have never owned a Mitsu in my life, and have never cared for any of their product in the past…I always thought what they said they were going to do with a EV program was reasonable, and the progressional steps they took, and the tangible progress along the way seemed to back that up over the past couple years.

So today (well a couple days ago), they (Mitsu) took the final step, actually firing up the line and producing electric vehicles. They also did so AHEAD of their original schedule, producing their OWN batteries, with much HIGHER (and still ramping) production levels than they targeted, with a car that is practically IDENTICAL to the concept.

To me, Mitsu is the ‘God’ of making EVs. They say it…and do it. Thats all I ask.

(Quote)
kdawg Says:
June 7th, 2009 at 9:49 pm

Statik
and so far, that has been the right call the past 2.5 years.
———–

I have to call BS on that. I dont have the time to go back on every negative thing you’ve said, but so far (from the data we’ve been given) the Volt schedule is on track and hitting the #’s. I’m pretty sure you negated every announcement of every target date/goal. What if the IVers are completed and they are test driving them in July? What if the Volt does hit showrooms in Nov 2010? What if it gets 40 miles AER? Will you smack yourself in the forehead and say.. oops? Nope, there will just be silence, until the next target is set that you will attempt to tear apart, for what reasons I dont know. When it comes to financials, i believe that is your forte, more power to you, but constant GM bashing becomes a broken record.

(Quote)
statik Says:
June 8th, 2009 at 7:33 am

#166 kdawg said:

I have to call BS on that. I dont have the time to go back on every negative thing you’ve said, but so far (from the data we’ve been given) the Volt schedule is on track and hitting the #’s. I’m pretty sure you negated every announcement of every target date/goal. What if the IVers are completed and they are test driving them in July? What if the Volt does hit showrooms in Nov 2010? What if it gets 40 miles AER? Will you smack yourself in the forehead and say.. oops? Nope, there will just be silence, until the next target is set that you will attempt to tear apart, for what reasons I dont know. When it comes to financials, i believe that is your forte, more power to you, but constant GM bashing becomes a broken record.
===================

To call BS, you actually have to back it up. Like me or not, ‘anti-GM’ or not, I always back up my quotes with historical links and sources.

As for the IVers being on schedule, I have never once questioned whether they could get one done by July 1st…so I don’t call BS on everything GM says, lol. Two months to prep to hand assemble a production-alike and 5 weeks to build it seems reasonable to me. Here is the thread if you want to look for me saying they won’t make it (I assure you it is not there):
http://gm-volt.com/2009/05/27/assembly-of-the-first-true-chevy-volt-integration-vehicles-begins-today/

As for, ” I dont have the time to go back on every negative thing you’ve said, but so far (from the data we’ve been given) the Volt schedule is on track and hitting the #’s,” if have had the time to accuse me, you should also find some examples of me predicting targets or goals GM wasn’t going to hit on the Volt…that they did. I’ve got 3,600+ posts…shouldn’t be that hard to find, if I am like you say I am. I honesty can’t remember even one.

As for being wrong, and then not coping to it. That isn’t me either, if I don’t understand something and I interpret it wrong, or come to a wrong conclusion about something and someone points it out, I always own it.

Besides, if the Volt is in production and in showrooms in November 2010 (well, if GM is delivering Volts to customers in Nov ‘10, I don’t expect to see a Volts lying around dealerships, lol), there will be many a poster wanting to dance on my grave…I promise you, my friend I will be here to take every hit willingly, I certainly have it coming if they make it.

Same goes for the 40 mile AER (which for the record, I said it will not make under normal driving conditions…like what is expected here of the iMiev, a city/highway/normal use blend. I think, like the i-MiEV, in a vacuum, under perfect conditions it can hit 40). I think I already get this one though, because GM has been adding the word ‘city’ when they talk about it the last couple months.

…anywhoo, I think it is probably just us left back here, so I will catch you around (or here, if you really want to)

(Quote)
EVO Says:
June 8th, 2009 at 9:33 am

@ RB 101

Apparently, you missed all the Volt reviews that consistently noted:
1. Superior off the line launches, for muscle V6 feel.
2. Smooth, seamless acceleration that luxury vehicle makers and drivers lust for, superior to any full gasser.
3. Unmuffled quiet operation that luxury vehicle makers and drivers lust for, superior to any full gasser.

Those are all fundamental, intrinsic characteristics of electric drive.

It appears that vehicle manufacturers have massive amounts of public education and marketing to do on electric drive, still.

“With the Volt GM is taking a path that tries to make electric just the same as ICE, looks the same, drives the same, no difference.”

(Quote)
kert Says:
June 8th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

Bollore/Pininfarina is reportedly now taking orders for their BlueCar/B0 whatever its called. Mostly french reporting.
Similar styling to Miev, but promising 250km range on LMP batteries.

http://www.bluecar.fr/en/pages-accueil/default.aspx

http://www.energyharvestingjournal.com/articles/bluecar-uses-electrodynamic-photovoltaic-harvesting-00001463.asp?sessionid=1
http://www.lefigaro.fr/automobile/2009/05/15/03001-20090515ARTFIG00314-voitures-electriques-le-contre-la-montre-des-constructeurs-.php
http://www.europe1.fr/Info/Actualite-France/Economie/Voitures-electriques-les-projets-qui-vont-sortir-des-cartons/(gid)/222805

(Quote)
jefro Says:
June 15th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

Does anyone realize you can rent a regular car for a day or so when needed.

How many times a year is that? Really?

(Quote)

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Mitsubishi Becomes First Automaker in World to Mass Produce Electric Car: Unveils Production Version i MiEV

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