AND 
Yet Another Electric Car Start-up: Coda Automotive and its “Mainstream” Sedan
On June 3rd the world was notified of yet another new electric car start-up company along with its first vehilce of the same name. Coda Automotive is the brainchild of Miles Rubin who also founded Miles Automotive, the maker of low speed EVs.
Headquartered in Santa Monica California the new company stated its intentions to mass produce a pure electric sedan. The 4-door 5-passenger unassuming sedan will be powered by lithium ion batteries made by Lishen Co. of China.
The vehicle will have a 333 v 33.8 kwh battery pack composed of 728 prismatic 14.5Ah Li-ion cells. The pack will come with an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty.
Power comes from a 100 kw motor developing 221 foot-pounds of torque and delivers 0 to 60 under 11 seconds with a top speed of 80 mph. It is front wheel drive.
Driving range will be from 90 to 120 miles depending on driving behavior. There is a 6 kw on-board smart charger that will allow recharge in 12 hours at 120V, 6 hours at 240V.
Lishen is already one of the world’s largest lithium-ion battery producers and the new Lishen-Coda joint venture has already filed a grant application with the US DOE to build a battery plant in the United States.
Coda intends to deliver 2700 cars in the end of 2010 and has a capacity goal of 20,000 in 2011. Cars will be sold directly and for now only in California.
The vehicle will be priced at $45,000 and come with a “green screen” AM/FM/XM radio, bluetooth, iPod connector, and power windows and locks.
Source (Coda Automotive)
123 Responses to “Yet Another Electric Car Start-up: Coda Automotive and its “Mainstream” Sedan”
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
I have no interest in being First!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:19 pm
I’ll be first then…First!
With all these relatively unknown cars coming to market, how am I supposed to know who makes a quality vehicle?
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Very interesting…!
Looks like an electric Chevy Cobalt.
Even more reason for GM/Chevy to electrify the new “Cruze”!
(I wonder if they’re hiring….)
And how can they ramp up so quickly? Don’t they have to do tons of crash testing and all that?
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:30 pm
I fear some of these more poorly styled and shorter range RV’s are going to undo the image change that Tesla and Fisker achieved. I don’t think this vehicle will sell more than a few thousand at this price / range / style.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:31 pm
I am glad the battery comes from China. Maybe they should build battery plant in central valley, where the living cost, salary is a lot lower than SF or LA. I am in modesto and we need jobs!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:44 pm
A 90 to 120 mile range is good.
I wish them luck no matter what; any effort to try and reduce our dependence on foreign oil is a worthy endeavor.
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Ramp up quickly? This car under a different name was announced years ago. Glad to see it finally coming to market. More choices, more electric vehicles is a good thing. I wish them success.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:52 pm
This is the real deal, unlike some other announced cars which seem built for PR announcements but have rather unrealistic specifications. (Hint: Company starts with a “T”). Ninety to a hundred and twenty miles on 33kWh seems about right, though ninety is more realistic. (Assuming that Miles is only using 70% of the pack we’re talking 250wh/mile). The price tag of $45k is also realistic for a car with a battery pack this large.
Miles has been working on EVs for some time, so we shouldn’t see any mis-steps like we’re seeing from BMW with the E-Mini.
The Volt doesn’t seem like such a bad deal at $40K anymore, eh? (We need to use the “eh” as we prepare for our Canadian overlords).
#3 CorvetteGuy — This is really the EV that Miles announced a couple of years ago. They just decided to rebrand it to avoid having it thought of as a variant of the NmG. But Miles has been making EVs — including the NmG — for years, and they’ve been working on this car for awhile. So this is not really an out-of-nowhere vehicle.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Anyone who expects people to pay $45K for that inferior Corolla-type vehicle needs to do a thorough rethink.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:02 pm
What have I been saying for the past year ? When cars are electrified, the barriers to entry into automaking drop WAY down. No need for tons of manufacturing and engineering facilities and expertise. ANYONE can build an electric car. How many news stories have been written over the past two years about Joe the handyman converting his Chevy S10 (a perennial favorite for EV conversion – has lots of space for lead acid batteries in the cargo bed).
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:05 pm
http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10001607/toyotas-problem-with-plug-in-hybrids/
I have tried multiple times to post the article, but every time it doesn’t show up and something new is happening, I’m getting
a you have already said that error! If I had already said it, it
would be one of the comments on the blog.
I think the admins for this blog are politically manipulating what gets
posted. What’s the matter? Is what Reinert is saying about battery
electric vehicles unacceptable?
Since when is a scientific matter a political one anyways? Hydrogen
is light, batteries are heavy. The energy density of hydrogen is high. The energy density of Lithium ION batteries is quite low.
When a battery dies, you have a 200 lb gorilla to haul around and
no energy to haul it with.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
WHY?????????????
And why did they get taxpayer money for an EV1 redux?
GM had this car with nickle metal hydride batteries! (True, only two doors but the EV2 was totally possible….) Taxpayer money for 12 year old performance? Pathetic!
$45,000???? I’ll stand in line for the Chevy Volt!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:17 pm
The words “vanilla” and “bland” come to mind.
While I’m happy for more attention given to EV’s, and getting the country off foreign oil, this thing is seriously unattractive in every way. Pass.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Sorry, Coda, but the idea of having to own 2 cars to do what one can currently do today (short-mileage trips and commutes; long-distance trips) is just not interesting to me. Add to that the added cost of insurance, licensing, and finding an extra parking spot at home, and I see little more than a niche market opening up.
I’m 55 1/2, and have never owned a GM vehicle in my life. Yet, the Volt is appealing to me in several ways. First, it allows for the short-mileage trips and commutes using nothing but electricity. Second, for the occasional long-mileage trip, the gas-powered engine is there. Third, because most of my trips fall into the short-mileage category, it makes it possible to actually budget for your “fuel,” since the price per kilowatt hour stays pretty stable compared with the cost of gas at the pump. Fourth, my guess is that battery technology will improve over time, and just like I replaced the original battery in my notebook with a newer third-party one later on (that lasted much, much longer), I suspect that first-generation Volt owners will one day be able to do the same, possibly extending that 40 mile electric tether out even further. Fifth, as I mentioned, no need for a second car in the driveway, or extra insurance and licensing.
And I don’t think that I’m out on a limb in my thinking.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:19 pm
What a non starter that would be!
100kw motor and $45000, 11 sec 0-60.
The Volt will eat it!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:27 pm
To bad it will only be available in California. I mean… they already get the all the cool cars first.
I used to think my next car would be a Volt… now I’m beginning to wonder. There will be so many choices in two years. But TODAY you can’t buy a practical electric car at all.
Funny how things are changing.
To all my fellow Volt fans from 2007… Looks like we’ve accomplished our goal. Wow!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Let’s see: It costs $5K more than the Volt, and you get range anxiety to boot. In other words, the ICE inside the Volt, plus all its integration, costs less than the extra 17.8 kwh in the Coda’s battery pack.
The wisdom of the GM approach is now evident. If Coda’s market research says there’s a market for their car, then there’s a huge market (by the same reasoning) for the Volt.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 8:54 pm
That price worries me. Who is going to be able to get a $40,000 lone for an EV. Due to the range limitations it a second vehicle at best. I think the market will be very small in the beginning. That’s a lot of money in a bad economy for a second car!
I think the other green options are more practical. For one thing, the Volt will still give you that fuel-free driving yet you can cry uncle when needed.
I also like the BP model because I don’t want to own the $20,000 battery pack. I want to lease it based on the miles I put on it. This could be done like the BP concept or just through a communication link through your home charger that checks the usage of your battery pack and bills you monthly.
That way when the lease period is up the EV owner can apply for a new battery lease or simply buy a new, and by them much improved and cheaper battery. With a quick shot of paint you are good for another 10 years. The EV platform will have more reliability than a semi-truck and be able to put multiple times more miles on the frame, if only you take the weakest link (the battery) out of the equation.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:08 pm
They badly need to do something about the styling on this car, if it’s not too late. Even if they made good-looking headlights (change hood and headlights only). Otherwise they’re shooting themselves in the foot, sales-wise. Who styled this car? It doesn’t cost more to make it look decent!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Makes the Volt look like a sweet deal.
Looks like Helen Keller styled that Dawg.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Vincent – That’s harsh!
But I admit I did laugh.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Yikes! $45k seems steep, but good to see what looks like a feasible BEV.
So, now we are pretty confident that the battery cost will be the driver (no pun intended) for bringing a BEV to market.
So, lets run some numbers:
33.8 KW-hr battery, and assume can cycle 80% of the power, which gives you approx. 27 KW-hr.
The Volt battery is 16 KW-hr, but uses basically only 50%, or 8 KW-hr of energy.
If the Volts battery costs $10,000, thats about $625/KW-hr.
So extrapolating this to a 33.8 KW-hr battery, the cost would be $21,125.
Which means of the $45,000, you spend $21,125 on the battery and $23,875 on the rest of car.
Vehicle body (all the typical frame, tires, interior, bells-n-whistles, …): $8,000
Motor (100KW motor, ac induction): $1,500
Power Electronics (Inverter, converter, charging system): $3,000
Total: $12,500
That leaves $11,375.
Hmmm…..the numbers do not seem to support $45K. So, either the battery is going to cost a lot more than the Volts or I am missing a critical piece of information.
So, if I work the numbers backwards, and assume the core vehicle costs I estimated at $12,500 are valid, then the battery would more likely cost nearly $900/KW-hr (900 * 33.8 = $30,420).
“coffee breaks over…back on your heads!”
PS: Good news is, that when they find either the magic battery/capacitor and/or prices come down on batteries, the price of the BEV will come down proportionally!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:32 pm
…honestly, I’m not too thrilled about their styling, but since it’s an EV, I wish them the best =)
However, that being said, I don’t think I (or middle class earner like myself) could or would want an EV at that price range if their performance is sub-standard and does not meet the needs of small family like mine. $45K car that goes @ max 80mph with only 90 miles of range is not going to cut it for me. I can’t afford purpose-built vehicles since I’m not rich. I’m not poor, but I definitely can’t afford 2 vehicles. How am I suppose to haul my family & go for a trip once in a while with this vehicle? Even if I just drive within city, if the recharge time @ 120 V (yeah, I know you could upgrade to 220V, but I’d rather use that money for something else) is 12 hours, that means occasionally I come home at 10 PM & plug-in this car, by the time I go to work at 6:30 AM, it would not be fully charged!
I’m afraid this will indeed ruin the good image of EVs so far in N. America like someone said earlier…may be this will still end up working in Volt’s favor, since the Volt looks awesome compared to this good-intention-but-failing-in-the-end EV.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:37 pm
16 Eric E Says:
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:27 pm .To bad it will only be available in California. I mean… they already get the all the cool cars first.
————————–
One reason this probably isn’t being sold in states like mine (Michigan), is weather. What kind of performance can I expect when I try to start/drive this vehicle at -20 degrees? Will it even start? How much damage will I do to the batteries at this temperature? Will range be reduced to 10 miles?
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:43 pm
This car will not be a threat to the volt but it looks pretty good as a family car but that price tag.
Texas #18 lone ?
Sparks #17 but you get a free toaster oven with it.
I’ve read a fair amount about longer range li ion batteries. It wouldn’t surprise me if they showed up in the 2011 Volt. Would anyone pay an extra $5000 for a 150 mpc battery ?
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:49 pm
22 JEC
Motor (100KW motor, ac induction): $1,500
=================
I think you are about a decimal point off
try more like $10,000. I’m sure you can find a cheaper one, but they are going to buy a cheapo one. You’re going to want hi-effiency and inverter rated.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:54 pm
At $40,000 including the Federal Tax Credit it is elitist. Same for the Volt, but we have known that all along. It is the second and third generation of the Volt that may be affordable for a large portion of drivers.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Man i can’t type tonight
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:00 pm
A BEV with less than a 2 hour range does not make sense to me. Lots of times I drive about one hour to go somewhere special (San Diego Zoo to the south or LAX to the north) and this vehicle might not make it. If you assume 4 miles per kWh and a needed 200 mile range, the SOC window needs to be 50 kWh. At $750 per kWh, that would price the 71 kWh battery around $53,000.
All this to say given the current battery cost, the Volt hits the nail on the head, as far as a realistic design concept. All the others either cost too much, or have too short a range.
And as I have said before, the New GM should be able to sell the Volt for 32,000 (20% less than the old GM). Time will tell.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:02 pm
#11 Michael C. Robinson – rest assured the market will decide.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:08 pm
I’m already familiar with Lishen, and I do believe they could feasibly get the packs out for end of 2010, 2011 if they really got behind it…which is good.
However, I can barely contain my unexcitement for ANOTHER entry to the EV market. I’m almost numb from the sheer amount of concept and pre-production EVs…and all their respective press releases. (The ‘California delivery only’ also further renders me almost inert)
/just give me one to buy already (that has 4 seats and I can get serviced inside its EV range), or even point me to a place I can put my money down
#11 Michael C. Robinson: Glad you are back with your random bombings of h******* love lately…we’ve missed you.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:10 pm
22 JEC
you also have assembly cost and baked in warranty costs
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:12 pm
The website for this car… uh.. needs a lot of work (and info).
12 Hour charge?
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:14 pm
I went to their website and watched the whole video. Not bad.
They claim $10,000.00 operational savings over 5 years.
($2,000.00 per year in gas and maintenance)
Not sure what price for gas they used in that calculation.
Have you guys done similar calculations for VOLT?
(I think one of you did.)
If their Version One does 90-120 miles range today, just think how much further theirs will leap if things like EESTOR ever come about.
Maybe then they can hire a real auto-stylist to get a more “California” look.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:14 pm
not as good as the volt
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:39 pm
______________________________________________________
Chevy Volt @ $40K
Coda Sedan @$45K
Tesla Model S @ $50K
Hmmmm
______________________________________________________
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:45 pm
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/unknown-carmaker-could-build-first-production-ev/
Some interesting details in there …..
———–
Porsche Design handled the front- and rear-end styling to tweak aerodynamics, but the rest of the exterior sheet metal came straight from the Saibao.
….
Miles already has 20 engineering prototypes on the road and is subjecting them to federal crash testing. TenHouten says at least 50 more crash tests are planned in the coming months and the company is confident it can achieve a five-star safety rating.
…..
Despite the price, Czinger is confident he’ll sell every one of the 2,700 cars the company plans to build next year.
————-
But I’d very interested in the following.
————–
Nissan is working on an EV that could come in at around $30,000.
————–
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June 3rd, 2009 at 10:46 pm
For those interested in Miles’ cost, read this thread.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2709
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June 3rd, 2009 at 11:05 pm
In the future, all of these electric car start-ups will be bought up to form an electric car conglomerate. It will be headquarted in the Bay Area, California and will come to dominate the electric car market.
What do you think?
ZAP
Coda
Miles
Aptera
Phoenix
Fisker Automotive
Tesla?
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June 3rd, 2009 at 11:21 pm
History has told us that whatever the advertised range of an electric will be about half what the manufacturer says.
It was true for the EV1
It was true for the Toyota
It was true for the Dodge
It is true for the Tesla (based on Lyle’s drive).
That gives you a car with a useful 45 to 60 mile range, and you only have to pay $45,000 for the privileged. This is why it is only going to be sold in California. Only California has uber rich Holywood “A” list celebrities with that kind of money to green wash themselves.
ED BEGLEY JR.! Your new ride is ready!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Alright, it’s American!
..Aaaand all the parts are from China!
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June 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 pm
I like the design of Coda’s sedan but Coda’s expectations are very low. Disappointing. Selling only 2700 the first year, limiting sales to CA, limiting some sales to fleets, offering 8 years opposed to 10 on a car this expensive is decent at best. I keep thinking about voltec and the 10,000 volts expected to be release year one. With voltec systems bringing prices in around $32,000 after rebates I cannot see Miles leapfrogging ahead any time soon. Chevy will be unleashing the volt with a 10 year warranty and still sell for less and sell way more with 30 – 40 mile electric range compared to the realistic 60-80 mile range Coda sedan offers. Coda is pulling battery range numbers from EPA drive cycles. Consider that the actual battery range is approx 70 % of EPA cycle. What a difficult sell for a car that costs more and cannot reach 300 ELECTRIC miles like any car with voltec. If you want to compete with all-electric range like that price needs to be dropped to the mid 20’s. Like my previous comments on conversions, an electric s-10 can be had for $10,000, 80 mph, and lead acid packs with 50 – 60 mile range. And unlike Coda sedan, the chevy volt will be built here domestically, by American laborers.
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June 3rd, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Thanks greatly Lyle for spicing things up. I was really getting seriously bored with the reorg. The BEV really has energized me again (uh-oh).
The race is on, and it is all getting better and better every day for the Volt. The cost for the BEV above is likely OK for Californian budgets(?) for all that (2,700 unit) production to be sold there. The technical contrast here is just astounding regarding the BEV price for what you get compared to all the very extensive and solid engineering going into Voltec.
Lyle, find us more of these things to compare with the Volt!!
This one ought to be good for 2 or 3 days of commentary.
The 5 year costs for Voltec, from what I believe would be the very limited scheduled maintenance, (if it is not going to be included already in the cost for 5 GM synthetic oil changes at one per year practically), are going to be very minimal.
A set of Tires. (unless they would be 80,000 mile type), Wiper Blades, 5 oil changes, two cans of interior cleaner, 5 cabin filters.
Gasoline usage might vary widely between owners. I drive 18,000 a year nearly exactly every year within 50 miles. (Its weird, but it happens).
No brake jobs, no Auto Trans Fluid changes, 3 of the 4 oil changes per year go away, No annual Air Conditioner Servicings like I have to do every 18,000 miles like clockwork for my 05 Element. (Although it is an excellent AC system).
(The Volt AC system is a sealed electric compressor unit without a belt-driven compressor, so, no compressor shaft normal-seepage rate of 10 percent per year here in Texas).
And, if you factor in the value of your time waiting for things to get serviced, you are really going to be surprised (and spoiled) regarding the cost of maintenance of a Volt.
Including one new set of tires (low rolling resistance), and the other things listed above, if you drove as much as I need to every year, I estimate for each of the first 5 years of cost of ownership,
I will save $2,720 per year not including my time saved.
Voltec will outperform BEV additionally due to daily usefulness by 30 percent time-wise and use opportunity-wise.
I do not want to be a “shut-in” for 12 hours when the pack is depleted.
How well a BEV is built is often how well the entire new technological set of new design components are BACKED by the warranty fine print! Study that first before buying.
Any more BEV’s we need to know about Lyle??
Dan.
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June 4th, 2009 at 12:41 am
For those of you talking about the Price…
Coda is likely pricing this to MAKE A PROFIT. Bankrupt GM should really think about doing the same thing with the Volt.
Also, the Coda will likely cost less to maintain as it doesn’t have the ICE components.
It is ugly as sin though.
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June 4th, 2009 at 12:47 am
43. Dan Petit wrote:
“Voltec will outperform BEV additionally due to daily usefulness by 30 percent time-wise and use opportunity-wise.”
BWA???
Well the Volt will use infinitely more fuel mile 41 to 120-wise. Those of you who want to use no fuel will be infinitely more happy with the Coda. Not only that, the Coda is 2-3 times more electrified.
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June 4th, 2009 at 1:31 am
#8 DonC
–But Miles has been making EVs — including the NmG — for years, and they’ve been working on this car for awhile. So this is not really an out-of-nowhere vehicle.–
Just for the record, the NMG is made by Myers motors, not Miles motors. And the NMG wasn’t designed by Myers, it was originally the Corbin Sparrow. However, Miles does have considerable EV experience.
#11 Michael C. Robinson
–Hydrogen is light, batteries are heavy. The energy density of hydrogen is high. The energy density of Lithium ION batteries is quite low.–
Hydrogen is light, but hydrogen storage tanks are heavy. At best, a state of the art compressed H2 tank can hold about 10% of its weight in H2. More typical tanks hold 4-5%. Thus to hold around the 5 kg of H2 (which is about what you would need for a 300 mile range) you are probably going to be carrying around a “200 lb Gorilla.” However, the true fuel cell car killer is cost and reliability. My company is an industry leader in PEM fuel cells and our fuel cells are driving several cars. Technically, these cars work pretty well, but even with mass production, we are nowhere near the cost targets needed for an affordable car. With enough R&D, fuel cells may get there and I’d love to see fuel cell cars, but realistically BEVs make much more sense and they are much much closer to being affordable (at least compared to fuel cells).
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June 4th, 2009 at 1:43 am
I like what Coda is trying to do, but I’m a little skeptical that they have enough experience and money to modify this car and allow it to get a decent crash rating. I also don’t see this car being as polished as the IMiev, the Volt, or the upcoming Ford or Nissan EVs. It may work and be street legal, but if major car company EVs start hitting the roads, then I don’t see it competing.
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June 4th, 2009 at 2:53 am
Good luck. I prefer Volt. Start ups companies should be innovative. What is innovation in this car?
Any way good luck. The more EV cars == less oil.
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June 4th, 2009 at 3:14 am
Coda!? Who came up with that name?
In Europe here we have the Skoda, an old east-block (Chekoslovakia) car manufacturer that used to produce ugly and terrible “cars”. Since 20 years they have been bought by VW and nowadays they produce much better cars, but still… they could never really get rid of their history.
http://new.skoda-auto.com/COM/model/olders/models/Pages/Favorit.aspx
The Coda actually looks as ugly as something the original east-block Skoda could have designed.
At $45 000 looks matter. And names.
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June 4th, 2009 at 4:09 am
Now this car looks like a 15k car, not like a 45k. I got the feeling that the most successfull electric sedan will be Model S. It’s the only one that costs 50k and looks like a 50k car! Even Volt is too expensive for what it looks like.
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June 4th, 2009 at 4:16 am
man the batteries are supposed to be made in USA and not in mothafuckin china. we need to create jobs here and not there.hope the company will create batteries in USA
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June 4th, 2009 at 4:18 am
THE MORE, THE MERRIER!
Bring them on! – Got to get off of gas, definitely by 2012 will all that’s happening with EV intros!
GO EV (Focus EV)!!!
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June 4th, 2009 at 4:49 am
#36, CDAVIS,
You nailed it. $30K – $40K gets you a Volt. $57K gets the Tesla Model S. This vehicle represents exactly why EV’s have not been produced until GM’s and Tesla’s design breakthroughs.
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June 4th, 2009 at 4:50 am
This is amazing! Very exciting news!
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June 4th, 2009 at 5:27 am
I do believe they will sell 2,700 units, but not tens of thousands. Businesses and municipalities will snap that many up.
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June 4th, 2009 at 5:41 am
90-120 miles on a charge is nice.
12 hours on 120V is terrible.
6 hours for 240V isn’t that great either.
I am thinking of a future where companies and cities have plug-in centers for cars. Does anyone see a city or company having a problem running 240 instead of 120? I mean are they more likely to install one over the other?
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June 4th, 2009 at 6:32 am
I found the Coda announcement completely underwhelming.
Jeez, $45k for a car that a range of 120 miles.
Yes the market will decide. The Coda’s announced timeline puts it on the street when the Volt is scheduled to come out, too. (Note the wiggle room – ‘is schedule to”) People will do the math, consider range anxiety, and the Coda will go the way of the Yugo.
It doesn’t stand a chance.
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June 4th, 2009 at 6:41 am
Rashiid #56
240V much better for a lot of reasons. 120V might be used as a quick to install, cheap option but if installing from the electrical panel forward 240V would be used much more often. Fast charging stations might be 480V in the future.
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June 4th, 2009 at 6:43 am
June 4th, 2009 at 6:45 am
Koz #58
Thanks. I was wondering if 240v would be more expensive, therefore less likely to be installed by cities and companies.
When I say more expensive, I am thinking of two things.
Installation cost and liability cost.
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June 4th, 2009 at 6:56 am
Yawn… yet another pure BEV.
I think GM has come up with the perfect recipe with the Volt. Most people will never buy a car without a range extender. More than 40 miles is unnecessary for 80% of the population, so that’s just extra cost and weight. And for the other 20% that drive more than 40 miles per day, many of these people will probably plug-in at work. So 40 miles AER will probably cover 90% of the population.
An EREV-40 can also charge overnight using a standard 110v home outlet and extension cord. That’s a big deal. More than 40 miles AER requires higher power charging connections, which will really limit people’s charging options.
I think the Volt will sell like gangbusters. Driving all-electric with no worries – what’s not to like? The only thing that puzzles me is that no other major car maker has announced a production EREV-40. What are they waiting for? Is GM really that far ahead?
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:01 am
#36 CDAVIS said
______________________________________________________
Chevy Volt @ $40K
Coda Sedan @$45K
Tesla Model S @ $50K
Hmmmm
—————————————————————-
Excellent post that crystalizes the choice.
Other things being equal (such as availability and service), with these prices the choice will be Tesla Model S, with its distinctive styling. “Styling sells cars”
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:03 am
I don’t think this car would be for me, but welcome to the party anyway. Still like the Volt.
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:03 am
Holy crap, that is FUGLY!
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:08 am
#56 Rashiid on 240 or 120.
——————————————-
240 is easy to make available where people want it. Every electrician will consider 240V just another standard installation. The main downside is that in the USA it is outside of the mainstream of “normal” extension cords and plugs. In Europe things are of course already 240V for the most part.
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:20 am
#13 Jason S says “The words “vanilla” and “bland” come to mind.”
———————————————————————————-
Your point is well made with “bland”, but please not “vanilla”. Vanilla is an expensive flavoring extracted from orchids. It caused a sensation when first introduced in the US around 1900. It may be common (because so many people love it), but it is the opposite of bland.
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:28 am
#8 DonC says “The Volt doesn’t seem like such a bad deal at $40K anymore, eh? (We need to use the “eh” as we prepare for our Canadian overlords).”
—————————————————-
One certainly would agree if the comparison were to Coda. As the prospective-customer comparison will be with the Honda Insight, Toyota Prius, and other cars in the $20-$30K range, the high $40K will still be a big step, with apparently not much incremental value (for the “masses”) in return.
I am worried that because of price Volt volume will be very low. Even Fritz seems to think of Volt as a dim star in Chevy’s constellation, so I think he shares the same concern. Volt in “limelight” but “…the Cruze, Spark, and Orlando are likely to be more impactful.” That’s consistent with most of his recent statements.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/09/fritz-chevy-will-be-competitive-top-quality-brand-in-two-years/
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:32 am
This car makes a Corrola look attractive. Ugh.
Why no discussion about who actually MAKES the car? Obviously Coda does not own a stamping plant for body panels, very likely does not form and weld frames, and probably doesn’t forge or cast other primary components essential to every car. The thing about all these start-up BEV companies is that they are just re-rigging the drive train of an existing car. So…. anyone know whose car it is that Coda is rigging?
Something that fugly, and the fact that they are using Chinese batteries, makes me wonder if it is a Cherry or some other Chinese model. If so, look for window seal leaks, rattling door panels, and window cranks that come off in your hand. There is much more to car quality than just the drive train. The source of this car shell is very important, given the steep price tag.
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:34 am
Not sure why so many posts don’t think there is a HUGE niche for a second car electric only. Most carowners that have a garage to charge an electric car in the first place already have 2 or more cars. We aren’t talking about single folks that live in apartments for the first 5 years anyways. So pretty much all potential plug in buyers can have one car for long trips and one car for short trips.
I actually think the sweetspot for a cheap electric second car would be 50-70 mile range, not 90-120. 90-120 miles is too much money for the battery and most days most second car drivers will not use up their capacity and thus not get the payback on their investment.
Until 5 years from now when battery costs come down substantially, what is needed for a BEV is to be able to pick the amount of battery a customer can use on a regular basis.
For me a 40 mile range would be perfect for a second car BEV. My work round trip is 26 miles. For the once or twice a month I need to drive more than 40 miles I’d use the other car. I wouldn’t want to pay for a battery pack that has 90-120 mile range because it is too much money not to be able to use the full range every day.
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:37 am
sixty-ninth!
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:59 am
too bad that the car looks like crap. who wants to pay $45,000 and look stupid?
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June 4th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Sorry, you lost my attention at $45K.
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June 4th, 2009 at 8:26 am
#11 I think Reinert and Toyota have grossly misstated the desighn and intention of the Volt. This seems to be there way, they have a lot to lose if the market moves away from the Prius. While it is true the Volt will get 50mpg in range extender mode, it has been stated to the point of adnousium(???) that the Volt will get 40 miles in alll electric mode because “STUDIES HAVE SHOWN 80% OF AMERICANS LIVE 20 MILES OR LESS FROM WORK.” The Prius doesn’t have an all electric mode. The Prius will all ways use gas, If the Volt operates within its 40 mile range it will not or very little. I read the article from both of the colleges, both articles grossly missrepresented the design and intention of the Chevy Volt to the point it was fairly obviuos there agenda was to advance the Prius over the Volt. I wonder who funded the study, actually I don’t!!!
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June 4th, 2009 at 8:27 am
Will they be there in 10 years after all the major car manufacturers come out with their EVs?
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June 4th, 2009 at 8:31 am
There are better looking cars than that made in China that cost less and go farther .
http://www.alibaba.com/product/jiayuanev-11993404-0/Happiness_Angel_Electric_Vehicle.html
You can get a good little electric car made in China for less than $8,000 USD
If you want one or a thousand , I can get it or them for you , shipped right to your home or dealership .
the.market.place.2002@gmail.com
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June 4th, 2009 at 8:48 am
While it is true the Volt will get 50mpg in range extender mode…
_______________________
The real problem is unsupported claims like that.
That value was only an estimate based on original concept engine. No revision has been released since and we certainly haven’t seen any test data. So making the claim is totally inappropriate.
The complete disregard for time & price in favor of fighting the very vehicle doing the most to promote the move toward electricity makes no sense. The leapfrog/purist attitude is self-undermining. Why is it so hard for some to see that?
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June 4th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Whats the point? Is this Coda unassing the brains of GM? Is this why that our VOLT site is advertising for Coda or is this, the code word for GM’s new electric vehicle start-up company?
I fear that GM is just trying to find a reason to slip back into their old ways and ideas of making the big gas hogs. GM! either make the Damn Volt and the hell with the other “Start-Up” companies or, just give it up. TRUTH, TRUTH ! Be truthful with us.
Get the VOLT developed as you have been advertising and sell it for a reasonable price that many can afford (i.e., $30,000 or less) and give a good support warranty backed up by, the best of GM.
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June 4th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Make room people…Volt specific news/quotes coming through, prepare to be filled with confidence (j/k):
——
GM is pressing ahead with models such as the all-electric Chevrolet Volt despite the bankruptcy filing.
Pressed for pricing details, Henderson said the company had discussed something in the $40,000 range for the Volt, which is expected to roll off assembly lines next year.
“The key here is to get it launched,” he said, saying a price point had not yet been set. “This is a technology that we feel very strongly about and we have market leadership in, and we want to try to preserve that.”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104819022
(near bottom of article)
—–
“The key here is to get it launched”
“something in the $40,000 range”
Completely unrelated sidenote: Who else loves ‘waffles’?…I know I do, a tasty treat to be sure
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:06 am
I would buy this over a Volt for these reasons.
1. Uses no gas, has no ICE.
2. No billions of dollars in tax money bailouts/baggage.
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:11 am
This article is somewhat misleading in that it implies the car will be MADE in California and only the battery will come from China.
Greencarcongress.com states the entire car will be imported from China, not just the battery. I didn’t think some upstart would have the capitol to build a car plant from scratch and I was right.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/coda-20090603.html#more
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:11 am
It’s important to realize how much the variables will effect the range of a BEV.
Speed, wind, weight, air conditioning. These can change your range dramatically. (cutting it in 1/2 in some cases)
You can play with an Aptera2e simulator here:
http://www.rechargeamerica.net/progs/stateofcharge/stateofcharge.html
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Engineer@70 said:
too bad that the car looks like crap. who wants to pay $45,000 and look stupid?
******************************************************************************************
It’s only available in California…… (just kidding Thomb)
Seriously though, for a local fleet (Gov = no need to worry about cost or looks) it may have a niche. For the gen pop range anxiety will be it’s Achilles Heel (I think).
Where is Statik?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!****************************NPNS
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:25 am
#40 solo – The projected range given the battery pack size seems quite realistic. Note they say “real world.” This has been a term the EV community has suggested rather than the EPA ranges. I can understand the skepticism when you have claims like that made by Mitsubishi that the iMiev will go 75 miles on a 16 KWh pack, but 90-120 miles on a pack twice that size seems a much different matter. When I look at the claims I go to the watts per mile, and 265wh/mile seems reasonable.
#46 blakem — Thanks for this correction! I’ve been thinking this for at least a year. I know a guy who has been working with Miles and I must have misunderstood him early on. Never noticed the spellings. LOL
#66 RB — Defining the competition is more an art than a science. Doubtless some will find the Prius to be a substitute. Some will find a BMW 6 series to be a substitute. Personally for me it’s NPNS so neither of these will do it. Just in talking to folks I don’t think I’m alone. (BTW the person I talked to yesterday has the BMW and is thinking he wants an EV, which is where the BMW came from). Not to exaggerate the point, but to me the difference between an EV and an iCE with an EV assist is like the difference between an mp3 player and a CD player. Others may have a very different view.
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Another car to the market. That’s great for them. Wish them all the luck.
However, ceteris paribus, the Volt still wins.
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:27 am
john1701a says : That value was only an estimate based on original concept engine. No revision has been released since and we certainly haven’t seen any test data. So making the claim is totally inappropriate.
If the 2010 Prius can get 50mpg, I see no reason why the Volt can’t. Especially with you driving it. Less likely to achieve it with me!
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:29 am
#75
john1701a
…Why is it so hard for some to see that?
___________________________
Perhaps because the Prius runs from gas bought only at your local gas station. Every, mpg, every kWh, every kilometer, every Btu, every newton meter, every bhp every inch crawled, crept or electrically assisted will come entirely from your convenient corner gas station.
When you’re silently running and feel the joy of electric only driving, that power came from gasoline. When you’re coasting downhill, you got to that hill and peaked it with gasoline. When you step into a nice solar cooled car on a hot summer day, and you take off silently under electric power, that power will always come from gasoline.
…Why is it so hard for some to see that?
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:34 am
The article at the top of this thread is information shy relative to other sites’, such as:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/unknown-carmaker-could-build-first-production-ev/
I find it quite amusing that the posters here think that Porshe design styling is ugly and that Porshe engineering is deficient.
Having seen the Saibao, Hafei’s mid-size sedan, the Coda is a nice leap forward in Chinese quality and execution and that quality standard will immediately trickle to other offerings and to other Chinese automakers if they want to compete internally with Hafei and eventually build and sell vehicles in the US. How wonderful that electric drive vehicles are driving quality and style improvements in vehicles globaly and in general (consider the Tesla S and Fisker Karma). The Mini E EV is BMW and the Smart EV comes from the owner of Mercedes. Too bad from another thread that GM has nothing going on with the gorgeous Cadillac Converj. Other folks are starting to get it that electric drive vehicles are luxury/quality first, as electric drive has intrinsic high performance torque and acceleration and is smooth and quiet, qualities highly desirable in true Town Cars. How wonderful also that the Chinese are starting to invest in American manufacturing (Hummer, battery plant for Coda, etc.), some of it for export.
I agree with posters who note that the Coda is not a competitor to the Chevy Volt, but a synergystic and helpful electric drive complement. What the Tesla S and Coda do, with pricing and performance specs, as they are both put forward by established EV manufacturers with real skin in the game, is to give real credibility to the current gen Chevy Volt performance/pricing. Now get it in retail consumers hands already.
(/flame on)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the EPA has already listed early 2010 model/makes fuel efficiency. US owned GM leads the the pack. Unfotunately, it leads the pack in poor fuel efficiency in 2010 cars listed to date, with about 22 mpg average for all its cars listed to date, in Chevrolet with a make/model with poor interior space, very obsolete technology, and a known very long history of mechnical problems and high maintenance costs, and a target audience of high school dropout rural teens and pedos with pre-1973 oil crisis mindsets. Ok, maybe that’s a tiny bit harsh.
(/flame off)
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:37 am
You can’t compare the price of the Volt with the price of this BEV because while one vehicle is being priced to be a money maker even with low volume production, the other one is a money pit for the foreseeable future.
Cheers
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June 4th, 2009 at 9:48 am
The real news here is yet another provider of safe chemistry lithium power (as opposed to energy) batts in the 5 to 6 hundred per kWh range, about a third the current retail price .
http://english.cri.cn/2906/2008/08/29/189s400146.htm
http://jalopnik.com/383238/hafei-saibao-v-is-a-chick-magnet
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:00 am
“The vehicle will be priced at $45,000 and come with a “green screen” AM/FM/XM radio, bluetooth, iPod connector, and power windows and locks.”
I didn’t see A/C in that list. Forget the Southeast US then, if it’s not available.
I have no doubt the car will find a niche, especially on the left coast; but I can’t take it seriously as a nationwide release for general buyers, at least not as it stands today in terms of cost and range. Moving forward, as some have said, these factors could improve: It’ll stay quietly in it’s niche until then.
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Nissan made it clear to-day that its EV’s will conform to the Better Place battery swap system and that its first EV would be a 5-door hatchback to be available in the U.S. and Japan late next year. (The Sankei 6/4/09) Thanks to G35X on the Forums!!!
This eventually could be painful for BEV makers like Miles and Coda that do not have range extender experience to fall back on.
With huge and expensive battery packs to pay for, and with companies offering vehicles for thousands less out-the-door, only because they cooperate with better place on a cell phone type battery plan, it could become a fatal competitive handicap – some day.
/ Some day is still a tough call right now, I can’t wait till my crystal ball gets back from the shop!
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:23 am
$45K for that? At least make an attempt to make it look somewhat good. I will have a Volt please and be able to drive to FL for Vacation and not have to stop every 3 hours to recharge for 12.
Still you are off Oil if that is what you are looking for. Good luck selling 20,000 of those a year.
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:32 am
As an old fogie way past his seventies I have a vision of future service stations. I see Gasoline, N/G, hydrogen, electric, water,air and who knows what other fuels will be available. I just wish I could be alive to see all this happen.
God Bless America,
Tom M.
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:35 am
There’s 500 billion barrels of oil under the shale in the Canadian Rockies.
My 2009 Impala goes all day, down the interstate hauling 4 people comfortably, averaging 30.1 mpg.
There is not enough electric generating capacity to make any mass produced e-cars viable for the next 20 years.
My Impala also has a decent sized trunk.
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:36 am
@NZDavid 84
If the 2010 Prius can get 50mpg, I see no reason why the Volt can’t. Especially with you driving it. Less likely to achieve it with me!
My SWAG is it’s because the Prius doesn’t have a 400lb, or was it 300lb, batt pack around. That’s equvalent to 4.5 stripers in your car.
Female strippers, lets get that straight.
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Hey, did you folks see this…
http://www.carthrottle.com/erev-jaguar-xj-coming/
Looks like Jaguar is going to be in the EREV biz. This will obviously be way out of my peanut pay range.
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Next case.
#77 statik:
I heard it yesterday afternoon. . When asked the price of the Volt, Mr. Henderson’s reply put me in the mind of my old friend and co-worker, Dick Bayliss. When asked what he was doing at various corporate meetings, Dick would always reply “Farting and tap dancing.”
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Mitsubishi Becomes World’s First Automaker to Mass Produce an Electric Car
On Thursday June 4th at its main plant in Okayama Japan, Mitsubishi Motors has become the world’s first automaker to begin mass production of an electric car.
The vehicle that has begun rolling off the assembly line is the Mitsubishi iMiEV, a pure electric car with 100 miles of driving range and a top speed of 90 mph. It is a futuristic-looking 2000 pound 4 door 4-seater which is fun to drive.
The car uses a 16 kwh lithium-ion battery pack that recharges in 14 hours at 120V, 7 hours at 240V, and a 47 kw motor. The lithium-ion batteries are being supplied by a joint initiative with GS Yuasa Corp also of Japan.
Mitsubishi plans to build 2000 units in 2009, 5000 units in 2010, and 15,000 units in 2011. The cars will go on sale next month in Japan for 3 million yen ($31,100 USD). There are plans to eventually bring the vehilce to North America, with fleet versions coming first.
“Today is a historic day,” said Eiji Kato, general manager of the iMiEV plant. “We will work towards the day when the entire world will associate electric vehicles with the i MiEV.”
And so a big step towards a world without oil has been taken.
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June 4th, 2009 at 10:41 am
@ solo – neither. Battery plant and final for made in US is one stated plan. One general method, used here by Coda, is to mass import rollers and do value added final here (thanks for the idea, Tesla), making it US manufactured. This already happens a lot in the current industry.
Who’s copying who now? Recent news relative to Volt production:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2905720
Ther are now many new and expanded battery plants planned in US, both domestic and foreign investment based.
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:02 am
#97
noel park “Farting and tap dancing.”
______________________
Better than running with the dogs and ponies before the start of the pissing contest!
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Given that Lyle has been tilting at the GM windmill for literally years to get the Volt moved from a concept vehicle to a production vehicle (uncontested). And given that GM is now owned by the United States of America (shudder). Lyle may be the single individual responsible for GM having at least ONE model that will eventually be accepted by a significant number of Americans. JMHO.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:29 am
jeffhre @ 85,
Absolutely! Still, it uses less gasoline than other usefully-sized cars on the market. But I still wince for the people I know who have been sent to Iraq every time I fill it up… That’s one of the many reasons that I follow this blog.
I’m still holding out a practical general-purpose EV or Voltec vehicle. The present household fleet is a Prius, a Ford Ranger, and a pair of bicycles. A compact EV-ish station wagon with good roofracks and other cargo carrying options (for carrying home-improvement supplies back from the hardware store) would be able to fill the roles of both the Prius and the truck. (A drastic reduction in range while carrying external cargo is acceptable for my circumstances.) Hopefully GM will release such a vehicle, or maybe Ford will build a Ford Focus Wagon EV. Or maybe Miles will make it. Or the company that bought Hummer. Or Nissan. Whatever, I just need a useful little electric car that meets the needs of my household without using foreign oil…
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:31 am
#66 RB — Defining the competition is more an art than a science. Doubtless some will find the Prius to be a substitute. Some will find a BMW 6 series to be a substitute. Personally for me it’s NPNS so neither of these will do it.
————————————————————–
Defining the competition is a marketing task. The first thing you need to get past if you want to be a marketer (either a real one, or an armchair marketer who posts here) is the feeling that “most people want what I want”.
The goal is to sell millions of cars per year to Joe public. If this is not your number one goal, you are not interested in transforming our national energy situation, The category will be small, high milage cars, and the competition will be the Prius and a host of small ICE cars.
The Volt will be best on milage and worst on price, and the consumers will have to make a trade off. But the trade off will be two very easily understood variables–MPG and monthly payment. Not AER, kWh, ICE displacement, or C(d).
NPNS is a great phrase for the thousand or so people who post here, but is understood by much less than 0.01% of the population.
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Gregski @ 98 says On Thursday June 4th at its main plant in Okayama Japan, Mitsubishi Motors has become the world’s first automaker to begin mass production of an electric car.
Indeed, that is great news.
Hopefully one and a bit years from now GM can say the same for the Volt.
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:42 am
If their Version One does 90-120 miles range today, just think how much further theirs will leap if things like EESTOR ever come about.
—————————————————————————–
This is a perfect example of in-the-box thinking. Why limit yourself to EESTOR? Think about the Galactic ranges which will definitely be possible within the next few years when transporters become pervasive.
You should always assume that any technology which can be named and described will, through research funding (preferably through the government) will meet any performance spec you care to name, at a price you are willing to pay, all within the next few years.
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:45 am
That’s equvalent to 4.5 stripers in your car.
Female strippers, lets get that straight.
——————————————————-
Are we talking strippers or stripers? It makes a difference.
Candy stripers weigh less than strippers due to a difference in one critical dimension.
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:54 am
#103 Tom Harwick —> Mostly I agree with your comments, which as you have posted them in #103 seem to disagree with comments of mine. Please, I didn’t say those things.
I’m willing to try to come to my own defense, but DonC is fully able to speak for himself
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June 4th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Tom Harwick@106 said:
“That’s equvalent to 4.5 stripers in your car.
Female strippers, lets get that straight.
——————————————————-
Are we talking strippers or stripers? It makes a difference.
Candy stripers weigh less than strippers due to a difference in one critical dimension.”
*********************************************************************************************
Silly, stripers are fish that can grow pretty large. Granted, not as large as strippers, but they put up a similar fight (I hear – never fought a striper (sic)).
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********Educate the .01%**********NPNS
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June 4th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
#98 Gregski said:
Mitsubishi Becomes World’s First Automaker to Mass Produce an Electric Car
On Thursday June 4th at its main plant in Okayama Japan, Mitsubishi Motors has become the world’s first automaker to begin mass production of an electric car.
The vehicle that has begun rolling off the assembly line is the Mitsubishi iMiEV, a pure electric car with 100 miles of driving range and a top speed of 90 mph. It is a futuristic-looking 2000 pound 4 door 4-seater which is fun to drive.
The car uses a 16 kwh lithium-ion battery pack that recharges in 14 hours at 120V, 7 hours at 240V, and a 47 kw motor. The lithium-ion batteries are being supplied by a joint initiative with GS Yuasa Corp also of Japan.
Mitsubishi plans to build 2000 units in 2009, 5000 units in 2010, and 15,000 units in 2011. The cars will go on sale next month in Japan for 3 million yen ($31,100 USD). There are plans to eventually bring the vehilce to North America, with fleet versions coming first.
“Today is a historic day,” said Eiji Kato, general manager of the iMiEV plant. “We will work towards the day when the entire world will associate electric vehicles with the i MiEV.”
And so a big step towards a world without oil has been taken.
===========================
You beat me to it. Not a insignificant achievement by any stretch. Love the iMiev or hate it…it is a good day for the industry, and for the greater ‘us’ at large.
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June 4th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
MY 2 cents
1) Don’t trust Chinese quality (they can’t even get Dog Food right)
2) Not buying Chinese … Carbon footprint of ships suck … can’t drive this thing long enough to offset shipping
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_fuel_does_a_container_ship_burn
3) I want my VOLT
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June 4th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
#8 DonC
Miles does not make the NmG – Myers Motors out of Ohio does.
It is based on the old Corbin Sparrow, made in California. They were made until 2003, when Corbin filed for bankruptcy. Then Myers Motors bought the rights, and moved production to Ravenna.
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June 4th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Although I’m not sure how successful this will be, it is so encouraging to see how many EVs/PHEVs are being proposed! This reminds me of the early days of internet companies, although there are a number of fundamental differences, of course. What we need is them all to compete, get rid of the crap, and end up with the good stuff (like Google).
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June 4th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Did I say 200 lb Gorilla? I should have said 300 lb Gorilla.
Does the superstructure of a car get heavier to support
hydrogen tanks the way it does to support large batteries?
The reliability of PEM fuel cells isn’t a huge problem if you replace
platinum with carbon nanotubes.
I firmly believe that the chances of PEM fuel cells lasting 150k
miles is much better than the chance of battery electric
vehicles lasting 10 years and having a 200-300 mile
range.
People assume that batteries will improve and fuel cells won’t. Why? Why so much faith in: heavy, low energy density, expensive
chemical batteries? How much better is a Lithium ION battery
compared to a lead acid battery, the first choice for electric cars?
Fuel cells are expensive but Lithium ION batteries aren’t? That
isn’t true and anyone who follows both fuel cell and battery technology closely knows it isn’t true. Fuel cell cars are so underrated that they will be accepted quickly when they become
commercializeable. Battery electric cars on the other hand
which are supposed to get 150 miles/gallon are going to
disappoint people.
Elon Musk is right that the Volt with it’s engine loses some of the
advantages of electrification. A larger Lithium ION battery probably
doesn’t work as hard as a smaller one, but there is a law of diminishing returns that kicks in as you increase the battery size.
I don’t accept the notion that the fuel tanks on hydrogen cars are
as heavy filled as a large Lithium ION battery pack. I simply do
not accept that. Add to this that compressed H2 tanks are an
interim solution until hydrnol or some other hydrogen carrier can
be reformed on board a fuel cell car. One option is to use algae
to synthesize gasoline or ethanol. Gasoline can be reformed
where gasoline that uses CO2 from the atmosphere will be carbon
neutral. Because the gas isn’t being burned, many of the pollution
problems go away.
The expectations for PEM fuel cells are so low because it is politcially popular to not believe in them right now. There is
this myth that hydrogen fuel cell cars are decades away when
they are at most 1 decade away from being commercially viable.
http://web.robinson-west.com/michael/hydrogen
http://xerxes.robinson-west.com/michael/hydrogen
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June 4th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
The goal is to sell millions of cars per year to Joe public.
_______________________
There are many here who strongly disagree with that… though, they refuse to admit it. Instead, focus is on the ideal engineering, not business reality.
Remember, that’s the very same approach taken with Two-Mode. Rather than designing a technology for the masses, it was configured for a niche. Mainstreams concern, such as cost, were disregarded. Volt is falling into a similar category.
Look at it this way… Based on driving 15,000 miles per year, Prius (55 MPG) uses 273 gallons and Volt will use around 50 gallons. For Prius to match the consumption reduction of Volt, it would need to sell at a ratio of 5.5 to 1. Prius annual production is now being raised to 500,000. For Volt, that sets an expectation of 90,900 just to match. And that’s not even taking into account any of the other FULL hybrids also being produced by Toyota.
For Volt to actually be a “leap frog” technology, well over 100,000 would need to hit the street the very first year of production. 4 years later, plug-in options for FULL hybrids will be common and will decrease the ratio needed… requiring even more Volt to be available. Production increases for FULL hybrids will require still more.
GM expects 150,000 Volt annually by 2015. That’s well short of leaping and certainly doesn’t reach many consumers.
Too little, too slowly is what the task-force reported. Those numbers confirm it.
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June 5th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
#9.kent beuchert
This is not a Corolla type vehicle at all. The corolla stands for cheap, Japanese econocrappyness, while the Coda is an American vehicle (minus battery), which will use no more petroleum than it takes to make plastic window switches. (Read reduces foreign oil dependency once we move from oil powerplants).
On a further note, all of these startups remind me of the pre-depression American auto industry. There were hundreds of small manufacturers selling their own designs of vehicles. The products presented an innovation from previous method of transportation. I think to some extent we are seeing this here. Back then, just like today, chassis makes also took existing powertrains from larger companies to incorporate into their designs. Today we have a company making Saturn roadsters into EVs and even converting HUMMERS and Dodge Calibers. Of course, today this is rising out of a depression rather that being leveled by one. Even after the economic boom after WWII, there still remained only a handful of individual manufacturers. It will be interesting to see how these companies progress from here.
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June 6th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Michael, it is fine to research fuel cell cars.. but the problem was that research drained money from battery research for many years, possibly delaying introduction..now it does not matter since BEV are destined to be the future of transportation and no one will be able to hold back its development.. essentially there is no more need for government research funds.
That said, the costs for fuel cell vehicles are very high due to the exotic tanks/devices and usually you still need batteries to buffer the fuel cells output.. everyone always points out how energy wasteful it is to make hydrogen and then compress it but perhaps that will not matter too much in the future if cheap solar and nuclear power become available.
Fuel cells burning some sort of liquid fuel would be very handy as range extender devices.. but exotic batteries may even kill that market.
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#113 Michael C. Robinson Says:
The reliability of PEM fuel cells isn’t a huge problem if you replace
platinum with carbon nanotubes.
I firmly believe that the chances of PEM fuel cells lasting 150k
miles is much better than the chance of battery electric
vehicles lasting 10 years and having a 200-300 mile
range.
People assume that batteries will improve and fuel cells won’t. Why? Why so much faith in: heavy, low energy density, expensive
chemical batteries? How much better is a Lithium ION battery
compared to a lead acid battery, the first choice for electric cars?
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June 6th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Very disappointed to see them using batteries made in China. Our family will never buy one. Enriching communist or fascist dictators isn’t our idea of a responsible consumer purchase…..
We’ll wait for a plug-in hybrid that’s assembled in the USA of NON-Chinese parts. In 2012, we expect to see mass-produced plug-in versions of the Prius (new plant in Mississippi), the Ford Escape SUV (plant in Kansas City), and of course the Chevy Volt (RIGHT HERE IN MICHIGAN, baby!).
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June 6th, 2009 at 11:18 am
June 6th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
With Solar to Hydrogen and algae to hydrogen coming online,
hydrogen production is not going to be an issue. Hydrogen research was NOT draining money from battery research. Give me a break, all of the major car companies are researching hydrogen and spending a decent amount of money. If they were after a miracle, they wouldn’t be doing this. Ask those in the know about fuel cell technology and they’ll tell you that it works. The major problem is cost, but all of the auto manufacturers now are saying that they will commercialize fuel cell cars by 2015.
Seven hundred billion dollars or so a year goes out to bring OIL
into this country from people who don’t particularly like us. Was
the hydrogen budget ever $700 billion? No, it was $163 million or
so for FY 2010 before Chu cut it down to $63 million. The battery research budget was never comparable to the cost of OIL imports either let alone the cost of the Apollo program. Cutting the hydrogen budget when there is no clear winner shows a lack
of seriousness about the problem on the part of the Obama
administration.
300 lbs of dead battery that takes 8 hours to recharge is still
300 lbs of dead battery. Hydrogen has disadvantages, but
refueling time is not one of them. Leasing batteries because
they are too expensive does not make them affordable and
battery swapping has many problems least of which is that
thieves will have a heyday.
Not answering the question of why you have so much faith in chemical batteries? Lithium mining is harmful to the
environment and there is a limited supply. Yeah we can mine
the ocean, but there are major environmental problems with
doing that. Fuel cell electrodes can be made from carbon
which is readily available and cheap. Carbon is hardly exotic.
The high pressure hydrogen tanks can be replaced with
standard gas tanks that are dual bladder taking up 20%
more space. This tank system can hold hydrnol which can
be reformed on board the vehicle. Name one battery electric
car that goes 500+ miles on a single charge? You can’t
because none exist. The Toyota FCHV vehicle goes 500+
miles now on 10k PSI hydrogen tanks.
The hydrogen cars that traveled from California to Canada going
through Oregon and Washington which are stationless, are hardly
exotic. The Honda FCX Clarity may become available as early as
late 2014. Chrysler and Ford are working together to bring out a
limited production fuel cell car as early as 2010 with commercialization planned for 2015. Toyota is targeting 2015 to
commercialize a fuel cell car. GM is trying to commercial their
fuel cell offerings still. I have named five major auto
manufacturers taking hydrogen research seriously that
don’t need a miracle.
Platinum fuel cells last 50k miles now where carbon based fuel cells
are more resilient and much cheaper. Mass production will bring the cost of high pressure H2 tanks down and by the time these
cars are commercialized high pressure storage of H2 may become
passee. The batteries in fuel cell cars are small and they don’t
have to be Lithium ION batteries.
116 Hern, you are uninformed and wrong about fuel cell research.
You have bought into the political nonsense coming from Chu who
is frankly an expert on bio fuels, he is not an expert on hydrogen.
I don’t believe that an exotic battery will make fuel cells
unnecessary and frankly fuel cells are more mature than batteries.
If a truly exotic battery comes along, it will probably: cost a lot, use
rare materials, and wear out too fast. It’s interesting that GM plans
on a 10 year warranty for the Volt battery yet Tesla doesn’t on any
of it’s vehicles and this car company isn’t planning on guaranteeing
a battery for that long either. Amazing how everyone overlooks that.
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June 8th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
The Volt’s battery that only gives you 40 miles of electric driving
under ideal conditions weighs 350 to 400 pounds.
A liquid hydrogen tank that can provide a 650 mile range weighs
300 pounds, granted that hydrogen has to be used pretty much
right away.
Hydrogen tanks are not as heavy or heavier than batteries. The
Tesla battery weighs 900 pounds.
Battery electric using today’s technology is a mistake.
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June 16th, 2009 at 1:27 am
Why are we all spending time reading and responding to what is obviously a cheap GM advertisement? I mean we (the tax payers) own GM! Why do we think this is a good use of our money? -slandering what is otherwise an honest company. “Yet another…” the sarcasm is so thick you could cut it with a friggen knife!
Maybe you have heard of the ’sequel’ (said with a sarcastic inflection) “Who Killed the Electric Car?” Make sure you also see the movie about the other time GM used slander rather than quality engineering to fight an opponent. What would the world be like if the Tucker was built… You mean headlights that adjust as you turn? Seatbelts…what are those? (A historical note here: the big three auto makers were well aware of the safety benefits of seatbelts long before they were standard/required by law, they were worried that if they installed them people would think cars were dangerous…so they just didn’t) Safety glass for a windshield? Collapsible and padded steering wheels for safety? A light weight efficient, rear mounted engine? You couldn’t have been describing a car that was being manufactured here in the US in the 1950s?!?!?!?! Well it almost was until GM, Ford, and Chrysler ran “Yet another startup…” into the ground.
If you were shocked by “Who Killed the Electric Car?” you need to realize this very website is part of the mechanism that is used to manipulate people like you into being afraid of the solutions that are right in front of your face. We, the consumer, are responsible for all that has been messed up. We, the survivors, are responsible for fixing it.
If you are able to read the first few posts and not be overwhelmed by the transparent attempt to fool people into thinking this is a legitimate website, then I have two words for you: ignorance is bliss…lol.
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June 18th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
August 9th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Oh My DOGS! Let me get this straight.. Former U.S. public officials took our tax money from TARP in a windfall and used it to bring Coda Chinese cars to the United States to compete with the American auto industry and put Americans out of work after they (The Goldman Sachs insiders) helped cause the American Recession!!! What!!!!???
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