Those five stark words have been long been in the making. Since late 2008, GM has been subsisting on government dollars. To this point, $19.4 billion of them. After being rocked by the one-two punch of first skyrocketing gas prices and then a plummeting world economy, 100 year old automotive giant General Motors has finally fallen to the canvas.
To be sure, GM’s financial health has been weak for years; mountains of debt, dependence on high profit margin trucks and SUVs, losing money on every small car sold, and paying unsustainably high legacy costs to retired autoworkers. Falling behind to Toyota on hybrid development certainly didn’t help either. They have lost nearly $90 billion since 2005. There was really never a way out of this outcome despite all the political drama of the last seven months.
While it is true that GM management had made a lot of bad decisions, I still believe greenlighting the Chevy Volt was the best decision GM ever made.
Today at 8:00 AM, GM filed for section 363 Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York City. It is the fourth-largest bankruptcy in U.S. history based the company’s $91 billion in assets, and the largest of an industrial entity. The largest bankruptcy by assets was the 2008 filing by Lehman Brothers at $691 billion.
It was agreed two months ago by the Task Force on Autos and President Obama that if GM couldn’t successfully restructure its debt by June 1st, it would enter into bankruptcy protection. GM had made a lot of progress, but not enough. The UAW has agreed to accept equity for its retiree healthcare debt, and the majority bondholders have accepted a debt for equity deal.
Of course this really isn’t the end of GM, but a new beginning.
Court proceedings are hoped to be extremely swift, GM will shed off all of its debt and bad assets in the so-called 363 sale. Within 60 to 90 days a new GM is expected to emerge replete with all of the best performing assets, no debt, $30 billion in fresh government funding and a bright future. The new GM would be 60% owned by the US Treasury, 17.5% owned by the UAW, 12% by the Canadian government and 10% by the bondholders.
The new lean GM is expected to breakeven or be profitable at 10 million vehilce sales per year, which is the current rate. Previously they could only be profitable at 16 million annual car sales. Factories will be closed, jobs lost, brands eliminated, and dealerships shuttered but in the end the balance sheet will be clean.
The Chevy Volt program shall remain intact and not derailed in any way. The deadline for the November 2010 Volt launch remains on track.
And once this massive event is behind us, we can one again focus on the mission at hand, driving without the use of oil.
Its hard to believe this blog that I started as a spark of hope for a world without oil in January 2007 has followed this remarkable and tumultuous drama down so far as to the pit of bankruptcy, and soon beyond.
GM-Volt.com shall carry on uninterrupted.
In fact, I will be back at GM headquarters next week for a new round of news, facts, and adventure.
Onwards and upwards my friends. Never give up hope. The Volt shall rise as the Phoenix from the ashes.
Below is GM CEO Fritz Henderson giving a live conference on June 1:
Jun 1st, 2009 (7:06 am)Number one, Ding..
Best wishes to all, let see what they can do!
I hope the can make the car with lots of head room i am over 6′1, and it hard to see out of most cars.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:08 am)In keeping with the #1 posting from Phil
/I win the internets
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:10 am)President Obama will be addressing the nation at 11:55 AM and explain whow he plans to set the automaker on its new course.
GM CEO Fritz Henderson will give live conference at 12:15, See it here:
—-
…and Mark LaNeve will be calling in sick
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:14 am)Thanks for keeping us up to date Lyle. Hope you come back from GM having tested one of the new “production intent” Volts!!! That will have given them 3 weeks to get one built?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:14 am)The Chevy Volt program shall remain intact and not derailed in any way.
_________________________
That’s quite vague.
PRICE: Are we still talking a $40,000 vehicle to produce with hopes of getting price down to the low 30’s within the next 5 years?
VOLUME: How many should we expect to be produced within the next 5 years, will it become mainstream at over 100,000 annually?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:20 am)Advice for President Obama since it’s now a government-funded program. Shift this over into the defense department budget. If we dump those resources into electric cars, we’ll be able to pull out of the middle east with true independence from oil. Rather than boots on the ground, let’s try some isolationism or a proxy war. This is no longer our fight.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:20 am)I certainly hope they can deliver the Volt to us at a reasonable price… on time!
Interesting idea, Dave…
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:21 am)Can’t wait to hear what they’ll say.
NPNS
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:26 am)Love the pic and reference to the Phoenix rising from the ashes!!!!!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:28 am)Capitalism died.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:29 am)Many years ago I knew a financial planner who regularly sold his clients GM bonds. He would tell them “if GM ever goes bankrupt, losing these bonds will be the least of your problems”.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:35 am)The only rule with the takeover will be that there are no rules. Nothing is guaranteed, and nobody knows how this will work. GM VOLT is not safe.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:36 am)Hooray!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:39 am)The only good think that government should have done
By only the volt (not GM) and later sell or give the technology to the big three companies
and let GM make and sell cars and be a company that can make profit.
To have a Volt you need a company first.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:40 am)GM = Government Motors. This will be great for Ford’s business. I know several loyal GM fans who will never drive another GM vehicle if the company is owned and ran by the government. GM should have filed for bankruptcy on its own and kept the government out of it. Mark my words GM is finished. Sad, sad day in America history. As for the GM Volt kiss it goodbye as well. The government will definitely screw up any progress that has been made.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:54 am)The only concern I have is this: I don’t have too much faith in the government doing anything right. I hope they don’t screw this up.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (7:59 am)“After being rocked by the one-two punch of first skyrocketing gas prices and then a plummeting world economy, 100 year old automotive giant General Motors has finally fallen to the canvas”.
Neither of these two reasons could explain GM shrinking business and non existant profits. Come on, Toyota, Honda, etc are in the same conditions and they are fine.
It is time to go basics, cut the fat. As GM is on tax payers life support I think tak payers have a word to say. Being one of them I do not want my money wasted on the expensive non profitable niche vehiicle. I vote to stop this madness aka VOLT.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:00 am)I have an interesting question. With GM stock at a firesale low of .75 per share, what happens if I buy a bunch of shares during this bankruptcy process (or folks who owned shares before the bankruptcy)? Will GM stock become worthless because of the bankruptcy?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:11 am)gm
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:20 am)#3 Statik writes:
President Obama will be addressing the nation at 11:55 AM and explain whow he plans to set the automaker on its new course.
____________________________________________________
It’s official now: Government Motors.
As for owning stock currently valued at $0.75/share, the sum total of the stock comprises the rights to only a tiny fraction of the company, and that, at the bottom of the totem pole.
Public disclaimers not withstanding, GM is an institution of the State and UAW moving forward.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:21 am)#17 RVD
“After being rocked by the one-two punch of first skyrocketing gas prices and then a plummeting world economy, 100 year old automotive giant General Motors has finally fallen to the canvas”.
Neither of these two reasons could explain GM shrinking business and non existant profits. Come on, Toyota, Honda, etc are in the same conditions and they are fine.
It is time to go basics, cut the fat. As GM is on tax payers life support I think tak payers have a word to say. Being one of them I do not want my money wasted on the expensive non profitable niche vehiicle. I vote to stop this madness aka VOLT.”
——————-
Did you even read the second paragraph?
Stop the Volt? I believe you have wore out your welcome. Sure, continue to post comments. Say more ridiculous statements. But somehow I don’t think many will pay much attention.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:21 am)Wagoner a few months ago:
“this idea that you just go into Chapter 11 and hang around for three months and agree to reduce your debt obligations and don’t pay your retirees, this is a fantasy. Most people will stop buying the cars of a bankrupt company.”
Delusions and denial finally crash with reality.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:27 am)I was thinking about buying a Volt but not anymore. Government owned auto companies suck big time. I just wish the taxpayers where allowed to vote on this. I have no doubt that this bailout would never have happened in a capitalistic society. This marks a big step in America,s rapid move toward Socialism (some say Marxism). A sad day and an omen for the future of this once proud nation.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:31 am)$19.4 billion, WASTED!
IDOTS!
We WERE a nation of laws, now we are a nation of FOOLS!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:34 am)R.I.P GM.
Its been one hell of a run.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:37 am)US Treasury = 60%
UAW = 17.5%
Canada = 12%
Bondholders = 10%
=====
Total 99.5%
So who gets that other .5%?
And I still do not understand how they get to keep the “good assets” while just walking away from the “bad assets” in bankruptcy court.
I never claimed to be the smartest guy in the world, but to me, this is very confusing………..
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:40 am)The decision to push GM into a fast-track bankruptcy, and provide $30 billion of additional taxpayer funds to restructure the automaker, is a huge gamble for the Obama administration.
We, taxpayers are FORCED to “invest” $30 Billion MORE in GM?
Viva la REVOLUTION!
to arms, to arms, TO ARMS! The socialists are coming!
WE’VE BEEN FOOLED! WE ACTUALLY LOST THE COLD WAR!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:44 am)Some guy on CNBC they were interviewing just said that the govt made GM “put the kabosh” on the Volt. Sorry I don’t have better details I just caught the sound while I was doing other things. Anyone else hear this? I have a hard time believing it and hopefully I mis-heard it.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:45 am)The judge in the Chrysler bankruptcy just approved the sale of assets. Never did I think that they’d be able to complete a proceeding in thirty days. Amazing.
If they can do the same for GM it will be triple quadruple amazing. The big key was to get the UAW on board since the union could have blocked a 363 sale fairly easily. The second was to get enough bondholders to sign on. Other than the fact they had more bondholders on board in the Chrysler proceeding, it’s hard to see the difference between the two bankruptcies at this point, though GM is far more complex so we’ll have to wait on that. Could be some unexpected wrinkles.
From a wider perspective what is interesting here is that we’re looking at a new era in bankruptcy. It’s hard to see why any company would pass up the 363 route. It’s nothing like the traditional proceeding at all — much much much faster. It does however give a lot of clout to unions, assuming there are any.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:48 am)Well here it is, finally!
Heard the news on the news, it said GM is still 1% of the US economy, so I think it is as Statik said previous post, the govt will let if fail slowly.
The item also said President O. said this (30 billion) was it, and if GM could not make it on its own it would fail. Politically this is a very astute thing to do. If it stays in business we win because WE helped it, and if it fails, WE did everything WE could, reasonably, be expected to do to keep it alive.
In any event, to claim the latter you can be darn sure the US govt will have NOTHING to do with the running of GM. Everything to lose, and nothing to gain by interfering. Smart politicos just won’t put their heads on the line like that.
In other interesting news, I saw a brand new add two days ago on TV, it mentioned the upcoming Holden Cruze and finished of with tomorrows car the Volt also being in the pipeline. This is the first time I have seen the Volt mentioned on TV in an add!
Interesting times we live in. Keep things civil team, please.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:50 am)john1701a, Steve, et al.:
Nothing has changed with the Volt development and program. We are going through a court-supervised sale of assets to rebuild GM, and our vehicle program decisions were made long ago as per our viability plan. The Volt is on track for a November 2010 launch.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:53 am)So, all of a sudden, the Volt is a government car and you don’t want it? Did GM’s Volt engineers and designers get replaced by government bureaucrats? I don’t think so. The same people are still on the project. The Volt is still the Volt; an E-REV coming to market in 2010.
Don’t forget, the Volt is a step toward oil reduction. I guess you’d rather wait to get us out of oil wars. If the US wants to take the lead in transforming energy use and maintaining a strong manufacturing base, I’m all for it. GO USA!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:54 am)Oh I forgot, there has been a lot of coverage about Opel here as well the last few days, seems GM transferred ownership of all the factories and Erropean patents to Opel, in exchange, the German govt has funded Opel to 1.5 billion Eruos. With President Obama saying NO funds to go offshore it makes sense to me.
I think a few posters today will need to take a deep breath.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:56 am)#26 Jim I asks “And I still do not understand how they get to keep the “good assets” while just walking away from the “bad assets” in bankruptcy court.”
It’s an asset sale not a traditional reorganization. The old company sells all its assets (and some liabilities) to a completely new company. Then the management and union and everyone else is hired by the new company — which will have the same name as the old company because that is being sold as well. The old assets stay in bankruptcy and are liquidated. Since assets don’t involve liabilities, those stay in bankruptcy as well. Very tricky. The first time this was used was with Lehman Brothers last year. So it’s a new game. Expect it to become the standard game.
#16 Rashiid
They are walking a fine line here. They don’t want to micromanage but there will be a ton of political pressure. Hopefully that won’t have an effect, except of course as it relates in a good way to the Volt. LOL Here is a good article that talks about the risks:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/business/01auto.html?ref=automobiles
#31 Phil Colley says “The Volt is on track for a November 2010 launch.”
Alright Phil. You guys stay at it! And best wishes to all the hardworking folks at GM.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:57 am)john1701a, great news on the mileage of your 2010 Prius, I could never get anywhere near that on the 2008 model I drove.
PS: Does the engine still shudder at above 95mph?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (8:57 am)#31 Phil Colley with GM,
Good luck trying to kill the cynical criticism that happens with bankruptcy, maybe it will die down after a few days.
Good luck GM… I am cheering for you to make it through this.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:01 am)I’m off work today so I’ll be listening to all the reports about the big BK. There were reports last week saying that Obama does not want to “be in the car business for very long”; suggesting that when GM is stabilized and profitable again, it will not take long (I’m guessing till at least the end of his first term – more on that in a moment) until the government starts selling off its 75% ownership [stocks] to get paid back.
So here’s what I am hoping to find out today: Will the “New GM” stock be the same $0.75 per share stock that is still out there right now, or will a new IPO emerge in the near future, and if so, for how much? If Obama is really telling the truth; that the goal is to end up with a healthy GM and then have big brother sell off their 75%, then you have to conclude that they DO WANT to MAKE MONEY on that 75% stock sale. So if GM is in fact profitable at that time, then NOW IS THE RIGHT TIME to buy GM stock at pennies a share!!!
Am I wrong on this? Shouldn’t we all buy 5000 shares now and then sell just before the VOLT hits the showrooms?
Imagine the “political mileage” Obama will get during his re-election campaign when he can point to a ‘lean-mean-and-profitable’ General Motors…! If everything works out, he will be hitting the campaign trail in 2011 in a whole fleet of them! Now flip the coin… Imagine how big his defeat will be if GM blows this opportunity!!!!!! That being said, I am sure that this administration will push very hard for this too succeed.
Buy GM stock now! (I hope it goes up high enough to get me a VOLT and a Camaro!)
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:03 am)Breaking news, Air France Airbus goes down of the coast of Brasil, hundreds feared dead, GM bankruptcy pushed off lead story after only ONE hour.
Well at least over here it has been.
/It would be rather tactless to comment on luck at this stage.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:11 am)#37 CorvetteGuy Says: Am I wrong on this? Shouldn’t we all buy 5000 shares now and then sell just before the VOLT hits the showrooms?
All shares are now worthless! I wish I had brought 100 for posterity’s sake.
The company will be a private company (closely held) for some time then an IPO will be done the Government will then sell its share on the open market, in small chunks over a period of time so as not to destabilize the markets.
Unless, Statik is correct about GM still going under in a few more years. Remember, he’s batting 100% at the moment. How much will those 2011 Volts be worth if GM goes down in 2012?
/Look to Toyotas RAV-EV for examples!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:12 am)#20 DonC said:
The judge in the Chrysler bankruptcy just approved the sale of assets. Never did I think that they’d be able to complete a proceeding in thirty days. Amazing.
=====================
It is a major hurdle, however that still doesn’t get them out of court protection…although very close. Probably still another couple weeks to go. (and today is day 32, if your keeping track).
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:18 am)GM will do fine now that they have the opportunity to shake off some of the ash and trash they have collected up over the years. Just some times you need to purge the system to purify it. GM’s saving grace just might be the VOLT if the Union of Laborers and GM executives can keep their minds on the building of a usable product for today’s world versus stuffing themselves with the greed of ruination.
NOW! Chapter 11 is a reality so let us get on with the VOLT making and some of the other usable vehicles and let us not live in the past. It’s odd that we seem to have a lot of shows on TV about the OLD Classis Cars and none about what we can do in the future.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:18 am)I think in the short term GM will be fine, but in the long run they are screwed, and so are the American people, because we paid for it. It amazes me how much faith some people put in Govt. The beuarocrats will run that company ito the ground. This is very un American.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:20 am)Sorry to hijack your thread Statik, well not really, but can CJS or someone tell me how long it would take to recharge 8kWh’s at 32A @ 230 Volts?
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/volvo-phev-20090601.html#more
/the E-REVolution continues!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:27 am)Hey it’s not all bad today, Tagamet ray of sunshine beaming down, my Opel Ampera, looks like it will be on track, albeit, with a new Canadian battery supplier. LOL.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/magna-electrification-20090530.html#more
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:28 am)#32 ThombDBhomb writes:
So, all of a sudden, the Volt is a government car and you don’t want it? Did GM’s Volt engineers and designers get replaced by government bureaucrats? I don’t think so. The same people are still on the project. The Volt is still the Volt; an E-REV coming to market in 2010.
_____________________________________________________
Who will manage the scale-up of the vehicle? Who will manage the supply chain and implement manufacturing? Who will control the sales, marketing, and distribution of the vehicle? Who will control service/maintenance, and who will control/dictate the warranty?
And you say nothing has changed?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:28 am)#37 CorvetteGuy
The current stock is worthless. The new equity might be worth something, but that’s not what’s being traded.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:31 am)#46 LauraM
Somebody needs to post the new Code for GM stocks here when they go IPO if that is the case.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:32 am)Al hail the saviour obama… All narcissists need to have the power! Gov. Motors will fail & I’ll be buying an EV from someone else.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:32 am)#45 Preseli
Fritz will.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:34 am)39. NZDavid Says:
All shares are now worthless!
================
Actually they are worth 71 cents/share right now.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:35 am)To 21 Daveo:
“Stop the Volt? I believe you have wore out your welcome. Sure, continue to post comments. Say more ridiculous statements. But somehow I don’t think many will pay much attention.”
——————-
Hey, if you are such a believer, why don’t you put your valet where your mouth is? GM is a penny stock now, so you could buy a bunch on a buck.
Good luck, and I really mean it. Those poor bondholders are getting pennies on a dollar. Or maybe you would have guts to explain why stopping paying tax money towards Volt is a bad idea?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:37 am)bigcitycat, I think you are wrong, the government won’t touch GM with the proverbial bargepole, If it, GM, goes under after this 30 billion, the govt will NOT in ANY way want to be associated with the stench that will attach to a failed turnaround.
The official line will be “The previous administration and this administration did everything possible to help GM, but at the end of the day, the current management just could not make things work. At this point I wish to stress neither, my administration or the Canadian government, had anything to do with running the company, or day to day operations”.
/GM is dead, long live Voltec!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:38 am)I wonder if the “new GM” will be as successful as “new coke”?
Cars have to be great when politicians design them, right?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:41 am)K-dawg @ 50. That’s so cool. Over here it’s illegal to trade in BK, I must buy some in the morning so I got a stock certificate to frame, lol.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:43 am)43.
NZDavid Says:
.Sorry to hijack your thread Statik, well not really, but can CJS or someone tell me how long it would take to recharge 8kWh’s at 32A @ 230 Volts?
==========================
8000 W*H / 32A / 230V = 1.09 hours
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:45 am)Wow. I never thought I would see the day GM folded. At one time I think 1 in 7 jobs in the U.S. was tied to GM. Those days are over forever. GM will never ever regain its former glory. Probably rightly so since their demise is largely of their own making. Looks like Ford is all we have left. Man have times changed. I need a hard drink.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:49 am)Take my name off the list. GM will be a money pit for taxpayer dollars and GM will die a slow death. I’m sure the Volt technology will emerge from a private company somewhere else, hopefully Ford.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:52 am)______________________________________________________
In other news:
Firefly Working on 2nd Generation Lead Acid Battery; Lightweight, Low Cost Lithium-Ion Alternative:
“…The 2ndgeneration model offers significant improvements over the first design. Most importantly, weight is reduced significantly. For comparison purposes, if you removed the Li-ion pack used in the Chevy Volt and replaced it with the 2nd generation lead acid battery from Firefly, the weight of the pack would only increase by 10%…”
Source:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1021145_firefly-working-on-2nd-generation-lead-acid-battery-lightweight-low-cost-lithium-ion-alternative
______________________________________________________
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:53 am)55.
k-dawg Says
8000 W*H / 32A / 230V = 1.09 hours
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not every battery can be pumped at 32A without blowing up in your face
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:55 am)k-dawg @ 55. 8000 W*H / 32A / 230V = 1.09 hours
Wow, that is pretty fast, thanks.
Hope it’s not 3 phase as I can only do up to 40A single phase here at home.
Still looks pretty good, time will tell.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (9:56 am)59.
RVD Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 9:53 am .55.
k-dawg Says
8000 W*H / 32A / 230V = 1.09 hours
———————————–
not every battery can be pumped at 32A without blowing up in your face
———————————–
Those were the variables given to me. I’m not validating them, just giving him the equation.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:00 am)59 RVD: not every battery can be pumped at 32A without blowing up in your face
True, but the one in my #43, that k-dawg kindly answered, can!
Edit: More importantly, for me, if the Volvo battery can, the Volts will as well.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:03 am)http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/01/westbrook.gm/index.html
Buy GM stock. GM will be around for another 100 years.
If you think not. You think the USA will not.
Save this post and save me from saying I told you so.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:03 am)deleted
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:05 am)While I applaud the move, I am a little bit sad to see GM going through all of this. They have to pay now for all of years of bad management. I hope, trully hope, that they get out of this as quick as possible. Good luck GM!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:06 am)#40 statik
Yes the Fiat sale is not final but the main part is all over but the shouting. However, the liabilities and remaining assets will stay in bankruptcy for years.
For Chrysler, as it will be for GM, the hard part now starts. These guys are going to have to start coming out with new product that people want to buy. That won’t happen overnight. The car business is a long lead endeavor and Chrysler is in poor shape in this regard. Some new cars from Fiat may be helpful but they won’t be enough.
#62 NZDavid
Faster cycling can also reduce battery life so GM may require a longer recharge time than the theoretical maximum. My guess is that you’re looking at a 3 or 4 hour minimum. But you may be able to get a half charge in an hour since the charging is not strictly linear. In any case we’re not looking at a Altair Nano recharge time.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:07 am)We seem to have a lot of “doom and gloom” anti-governent and anti-democrat types on this blog. Is this proportionally representative of the US?
Strict adherence and faith in political theories seems to override pragmatism. Given our current situation, what is the best way out of our mess?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:09 am)Edit: Deleted
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:16 am)NZDavid @ 68…
P = iV
That’s the equation.
i = amps
V = volts
P = Power (watts)
I agree with K-Dawg’s 1.05 hours of charge time.
Edit: # 68 DELETED?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:16 am)#6 Dave B:
“Advice for President Obama since it’s now a government-funded program. Shift this over into the defense department budget. If we dump those resources into electric cars, we’ll be able to pull out of the middle east with true independence from oil. Rather than boots on the ground, let’s try some isolationism or a proxy war. This is no longer our fight.”
Right on! This is a national defense issue. Develop electric cars as a proxy war on terrorism. That is a great idea. Reminds me of Regan and the Star Wars program in the 80’s. We out-spent and out teched the Russians. The Soviets went broke and the Cold War ended.
Eliminating foreign oil and removing America’s interests from the middle east will mean nothing left for the terrorists. They can go back to killing each other. We can go back to being a truly independent country!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:22 am)Good bye GM (aka Government Motors). Hello Ford.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:23 am)#70
Nice to see some people get the bigger picture.
Most negative comments here come from understandable frustration….
However if these same people were given a chance to run & own their own business and live through the good and bad times of business ownership….the view and comments would be far different.
#71 Don’t hold your breath on Ford Not taking money…yet.
Oil and Autos have been tied together forever. That has to change and you are watching from the front row my friends.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:32 am)David K (CT)
Thanks for the validation.
CDAVIS @ 58: Great link. The funny thing is Firefly was started by Caterpillar who just wanted to make a better battery that wouldn’t shake itself to death in the heavy equipment they make.
I think it could well be a go for Volt version 2, not to mention UPS systems.
LJGTVWOTR
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:32 am)Ford Reality for those who think they wear a red cape with an “S”
Logo….actually Ford has leveraged even their logo….the Blue and White Oval….now that’s the definition of tapped out.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/090129-Ford-Posts-Huge-Loss-Taps-Loan/
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:39 am)Yes, welcome to Government Motors. I’m afraid all this bailout has done is extended the painful death throes of a once great company. R.I.P. GM.
“Who is John Galt?”
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:39 am)Scott @ 70 and Vincent @ 72.
I agree, I heard NZ spent 8 billion on imported oil last year, and only 4 million of us live here! What a waste of money!
meanwhile it’s really raining here and electricity is currently (pun intended) selling for .01 cents per megawatt hour in the South Island (3.30am) and .10 per megawatt hour in the North Island.
http://www.electricityinfo.co.nz/comitFta/ftaPage.main
/I just want a EV. Bashes head against wall!
NO plug, NO sale.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:39 am)GM stock should of have been delisted days ago. The only people trading GM stock in the last few weeks have been day traders. The move you are seeing today is due to people who have been short the stock covering their shorts. This stock is worthless.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:43 am)@RVD 59
“not every battery can be pumped at 32A without blowing up in your face”
Wrong.
LIFEPO4 Cells can take a 1C charge rate. So if the cells are at least 40ah they can take 40A to charge. That’s just a small cell. Most likely they are 100Ah cells. Most DIY EV mods use at the minimum 100Ah cells in packages of 72VDC to 144VDC (DC Conversions)and 220VDC to 300VDC (AC Conversion).
K-dawg’s formula is correct however, your house current is most likely going to be your bottleneck.
There are even newer LIFEPO4 cells that have a tighter operating V range that can spit out 4C (400A) for a 100Ah cell and take a 1.5C (150A) charge rate. These cells were designed for with brake regen in mind….http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SE180AHA
The rule of thumb though is to charge at at least .3C but max of 1C. On most cells you will never be able to charge faster than 1C because your house will limit you. Unless you tap your neighbors too.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (10:53 am)CaptJack @ 78…
I know we talked (well you did the talkin’, I just listened) about this “C” charge rate before.
I don’t believe I’ve ever heard of it before, but then again maybe I wasn’t paying attention the day it was discussed in my Electrical Engineering class in college.
Are there any units associated with this “C” or is it unitless?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:00 am)While I’m not enthused by government intervention into many things, perhaps if the government had intervened and imposed gradually higher CAFE standards, rather than 27.5 MPG being static since 1990, then perhaps, just maybe, GM and Chrysler wouldn’t be in bankruptcy today. More fuel efficient cars would have been more desirable and more profitable. The gas price explosion of 2008 might well have been perceived as justification for ever higher CAFE standards. GM would have used what they learned with EV-1 to build plugin hybrids and maybe even the Volt back circa 2004-2005.
Imagine.
I remain hopeful about the future, and the Volt is a huge part of GM’s future. More hybrids, better hybrids, plugin hybrids and EVs.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:05 am)CJS et al:
k-dawg kindly answered my question in #43, it is really good to see what I can realisticy expect to do here at home. The answer looked great, so it’s really good to see you confirm it.
President Obama is IMO giving a really good speech reassuring everyone. Seems like he has been reading Statik! “Difficult days lie ahead for the company!” Translation: “IF it goes pear shaped its not my fault”
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:05 am)78
CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 10:43 am
@RVD 59
“not every battery can be pumped at 32A without blowing up in your face”
Wrong.
————————-
I said “not every battery”. Why do you insist on a particular battery that CAN is beyond my understanding. What does it have to do with Volt?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:07 am)Evaluating whether government money was well-spent here is not as simple as some make it out to be. The costs of simply allowing GM to go under, in terms of GM jobs lost (think unemployment compensation payments), jobs lost as suppliers went under, and the ripple effect of personal and related business bankruptcies would have been large. There are hidden costs to liquidation, and the impacts of an unplanned bankruptcy on the economy could have been very large. A real analysis would take a team of trained economists, and still would contain a lot of assumptions. In short we’ll REALLY never know the answer.
As for comparing GM unfavorably to Ford and others, haven’t there been enough posts here for people to realize that Ford is not out of the woods? Haven’t there been enough posts about Toyota’s rapidly increasing losses, in the billions? Haven’t there been posts and articles about countries like Canada, France, Italy, Germany and Japan giving aid to save auto jobs in their countries? Can anyone really argue that any large car company is safe in the current auto sales environment? I don’t think so.
I love the phoenix logo, Lyle. I hope and pray that it will come true. I think that the Obama administration will be happy to off-load their ownership stake off their hands in GM as soon as it is prudent to do so. The UAW has shown every intent of doing likewise. Whether Static is right, and this amounts to a slow death, or whether it simply results in a smaller private company emerging, only time will tell.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:09 am)#66 DonC said:
#40 statik
For Chrysler, as it will be for GM, the hard part now starts. These guys are going to have to start coming out with new product that people want to buy. That won’t happen overnight. The car business is a long lead endeavor and Chrysler is in poor shape in this regard. Some new cars from Fiat may be helpful but they won’t be enough.
=====================
Ain’t that the truth.
For just about the first time in a long time, people actually will have to look at the future with regard to can GM/Chrysler sell cars? What do they have to offer in that regard? …rather than how long until they go into a GSB.
Obama pretty much said as much today, “In a different time and under different condition, we, in way would have stepping like we did today” (paraphrase).
So if the economy stays stable, (and/or improves), post GSB- Chrysler/GM are on there own…meaning they have to sell cars for a profit, or go away. Hopefully they do it right to give them the best opportunity…I have a feeling there is not going to be a GSB, round 2.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:13 am)RVD @ 82:
78
CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 10:43 am
@RVD 59
“not every battery can be pumped at 32A without blowing up in your face”
Wrong.
————————-
I said “not every battery”. Why do you insist on a particular battery that CAN is beyond my understanding. What does it have to do with Volt?
He does so because I referenced a specific battery in my #43.
Sorry to hijack your thread Statik, well not really, but can CJS or someone tell me how long it would take to recharge 8kWh’s at 32A @ 230 Volts?
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/volvo-phev-20090601.html#more
/the E-REVolution continues!
If the Volvo battery can take that charge rate, the Volt will as well. I’ve got three posters giving me, it seems, valid reasons why the 1.09 hour charge rate will work, and you on the other side which hasn’t. If you know where the article is wrong please say so.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:18 am)@RVD 82
Well, considering the Volts batt pack is 400VDC 40AH, then k-dawgs equations seems to be valid just as mine is in that ones house is the bottleneck.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:23 am)Is Fritz just nervous or drunk as an assembly line worker?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:23 am)Statik @ 84 ,I have a feeling there is not going to be a GSB, round 2.
ROTFLMAO.
Really, Ya think!
/No prizes for this one.
Fritz looks good as well. Can’t help but see Red ink Rick behind him saying BK is not an option!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:28 am)@RVD 82
“I said “not every battery”. Why do you insist on a particular battery that CAN is beyond my understanding. What does it have to do with Volt?”
I do so because each cell in the Volt is a LIFEPO4 or a small chemical derrivative (hence it’s proprietaryness) and the specs are at least 98% accurate to the common available cells used by DIY’rs. At least from what we know of. Again, it’s not completely accurate because they will not release exact info.
Is there a specific Lithium chmical archetecture you want to know about? Or a batt pack configuration of that chem mix?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:31 am)President Obama said that Chrysler sold more cars in May under BK than in April. How does he know the figures? I didn’t think they had been released yet?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:36 am)“The Volt shall rise as the Phoenix from the ashes.”
The last Phoenix GM had got the ax. You all remember the Pontiac Trans Am.
May the Fire Chicken rest in peace.
Lets just hope the Volt does not meet the same fate.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:40 am)The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge!!!!
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:43 am)@Evil Conservative 91
“Fire Chicken”
AHAHAHAH!!!!
You’re making me hungry for Chicken wings at H( . Y . )TERS!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:47 am)67 ThombDBhomb
I think it is always easy to criticize the Govt. They do screw many things up. That may explain all of the complaining.
In hindsight, it is clear that the Bush admin should not have provided GM any money. GM should have went into bankR at that point. That would have saved the taxpayers money and it was probably illegal for Bush to give the money anyway. Congress is supposed to dole out money and congress voted “no” on the auto bailout in the fall. The people had spoken. No money for the automakers. At that time, Bush went into action and gave them money anyway.
As far as a way out of this mess, I think the only way out is with suffering and hard work. This builds character and makes people think that actions have consequences. The Govt is trying to eliminate pain wherever possible (By spending more money and pushing us further in debt). Pain teaches a lesson and future generations are more careful. In our current situation, the lesson learned is that if you fail, the govt will help you out. So… don’t worry about your poor decisions, they are probably not your fault.
After the 1929 market crash laws were put in place to safegaurd against many things. Several of these good ideas have been overturned in the last 20 years as if we were more mature now.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:47 am)Japan makes sure Toyota has as many billions at it needs whenever it is that they say they need them.
Japanese government funded Toyota Prius? ( http://www.caradvice.com.au/11598/japanese-governmenet-funded-toyota-prius/ )
Toyota Financial Services Unit Applies for Government-Backed Loans ( http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6455654/news/toyota-financial-services-unit-applies-for-government-backed-loans/index.html )
Toyota is suspending production at all 12 of its Japan plants for 11 days over February and March ( http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/06/toyota-to-suspend-car-production-in-japan/ )
Honda may follow Toyota’s lead, ask Japanese gov’t for aid ( http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/04/honda-may-follow-toyotas-lead-ask-japanese-govt-for-aid/ )
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:49 am)GM said it was notified today by the New York Stock Exchange that the exchange will suspend trading of GM common on Tuesday. The NYSE often will suspend trading and consider delisting a company from the exchange, if a company falls below any continued listing standards and files or announces its intent to file for relief under any provisions of any bankruptcy laws.
Source:
http://www.freep.com/article/20090601/COL07/90601035/1210/BUSINESS/GM+to+fall+off+Dow+index++NYSE
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:50 am)89.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 11:28 am
…
————————–
1. “Not every battery” implies there exist some batteries that can while others can not. So my statement is correct in a broad sense. Your statement “might be” correct in a special case of a “spherical horse in vacuum”. Battery chemistry is a nonlinear process, therefore t = E/(UI) will only roughly estimate the best case or theoretical limit.
2. Currently many US households have at least 100A 2 phases, which will allows you to pump 40A and more at 240V (typical central A/C start up current is like 20-30A). Newer houses have 300 Amp services, so you could literally fry your battery. I do not see limits here unless we are talking about 5 minutes fast charge.
As far as Volt is concerned what we heard was “charge overnight”. Hence my skepticism over 1h charging time for Volt.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:57 am)Nothing has changed with the Volt development and program. We are going through a court-supervised sale of assets to rebuild GM, and our vehicle program decisions were made long ago as per our viability plan. The Volt is on track for a November 2010 launch.
_________________________
Disregarding the issues of PRICE and VOLUME is not constructive.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (11:57 am)Yeah, but what about the effing gas tank volume? Will Fritz address this critical issue at 12:15? Heh heh.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:05 pm)Did anyone else notice how prominent the Volt appeared in the two identical color renderings behind Henderson on his left & right in the press conference? I was impressed!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:17 pm)@RVD 97
“Battery chemistry is a nonlinear process, therefore t = E/(UI) will only roughly estimate the best case or theoretical limit.”
Can’t argue there. That is the estimate EVERYBODY gives out, the theoretical best figures.
“Currently many US households have at least 100A 2 phases, which will allows you to pump 40A and more at 240V (typical central A/C start up current is like 20-30A). Newer houses have 300 Amp services, so you could literally fry your battery. I do not see limits here unless we are talking about 5 minutes fast charge.”
I guess I should’ve stipulated “At the NEMA plug”. Sorry. The physical NEMA standard plug for a 220VAC home socket is rated, I think, at 30A @ 220VAC max. If you want a higher current rating you’ll need a licensed electrician to upgrade the breakers/fusebox on your home.
“As far as Volt is concerned what we heard was “charge overnight”. Hence my skepticism over 1h charging time for Volt.”
IMHO, 1hr charge, that aint gonna happen anytime soon. Maybe Volt3?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:22 pm)#100 nasaman says “Did anyone else notice how prominent the Volt appeared in the two identical color renderings behind Henderson on his left & right in the press conference?”
No I did not but nice catch. Not an insignificant placement. These things are highly staged and well thought out so it’s not accidental at all.
#95 jeffhre — At the current sales rate every major auto company in every part of the world will need some form of bailout. Those who don’t understand this simply are not appreciating that halving the sales rate when production capacity is already too high will kill every competitor in an industry. Honda and especially Toyota are hardly immune.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:28 pm)The phoenix’s wings look kinda clipped already – Ooops, sign of things to come!
Bye GM, Hello new company! What have you got for sale today GM that will “blow my mind”?
GO EV!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:31 pm)Just reported on the BBC, GM has been delisted.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:36 pm)RE the Volt recharge-time discussion:
I seem to recall hearing “8 hours at 110V, or 3 hours at 220V” in the same posting. In fact, it may have been a smaller number of hours at 110V, it’s been awhile.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:37 pm)CaptJackSparrow @ 101 & RVD 97.
The whole one hour charge time came about due to a question from me in #43 and is specific to countries like NZ / UK etc which uses 230 Volt power supply as standard. I can do 32A at home so I expect to be able to charge my Volt in 1.09 hours.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:39 pm)@Jackson 105
I’m good with overnite charging, IF I could afford the Volt that is….lol
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:40 pm)Jackson @ 105 says:
RE the Volt recharge-time discussion:
I seem to recall hearing “8 hours at 110V, or 3 hours at 220V” in the same posting. In fact, it may have been a smaller number of hours at 110V, it’s been awhile.
Different discussion. That was charging at 10A, we are talking about charging at 32A as per my #43.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:41 pm)What is going on here is not as unique as you might think. Do a wikipedia lookup on CONRAIL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrail
In 1974, most of the railroads in the US were on the brink of total collapse. The government nationalized them and formed CONRAIL. After a few years of non-profitability and a few infusions of federal cash, CONRAIL became profitable in 1981 and the government privatized the company in 1987.
CONRAIL has been profitable ever since.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:41 pm)Nifty logo, that screaming chicken and all.
Is this to be taken as a sign that GM will, once again, badge-engineer the Camaro into a Firebird?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:45 pm)Glad to see GM finally removed from the DJIA. They should be removed from the NYSE also. This is no longer a public company. Their stock is total JUNK. GM business practices should be mandatory review in all College Business curriculum, an excellent example of how NOT to run a corporation.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:48 pm)Haiku Tsk Tsk
Boardroom boys bungled
They got what they had coming
But working guys pay
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:50 pm)This is not really a “fresh start” like most bankruptcies. In fact they keep the same incompetent engineers making the same crappy cars that nobody wants to buy. Not much has changed here. What a huge waste of taxpayer dollars.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:55 pm)#95 jeffhre/ 102 DonC
If no world government intervened, then Toyota and Honda would have been able to take advantage of the collapse of GM, Chrysler, and others, and increase their market share to offset their losses.
Once one company has government support, they’ll all need it. I’m not saying that I think that’s what should happen. (It’s part of the reason Detriot was in this mess–Toyota and Honda, and now Tata and BYD all had government support all along.)
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Jun 1st, 2009 (12:57 pm)As usual, the media thinks that the money that allows GM to continue operating came from the Feds. Wrong. Most of the money that financed this bankruptcy was from the shareholders and the bondholders. All that money that those folks, pension funds, etc. invested in GM is down the drain. THEY are the ones who financed the UAW pirates and their $20 billion retiree healthcare benfits and their $125K plus per annum extortionary salaries. Anyone who invests in a unionized corporation needs to have their brain refurbished. Ain’t nobody going to finance GM or their pricefixing union anymore. No bonds, no stock. May the spineless wimps that have been running GM get what they deserve. Hopefully, thay all took a lot of their compensation in stock. But I doubt it. They may not know how to run an automotive corporation, but I don’t think they are absolute idiots.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:00 pm)I woke up this morning to very good news.
Toyota Quality is up. GM is down.
Government Motors !, that a good one.
After breakfast we have much surprise for you Americans.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:25 pm)109.
NZDavid Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
“I can do 32A at home so I expect to be able to charge my Volt in 1.09 hours.”
—————————————–
I believe you will have to lower your expectations. There is a reason why Volt battery charging current will be limited – capacity fading issue. Basically, studies show approximately 10% (1C), 20% (2C) and 30% or more (3C) capacity is lost after 300 cycles for Li-ion batteries. In other words, your battery will be irreparably damaged after 3-5 years of high current charging. Given 10 years average car life and GM warranty, GM will simply not allow you to go over specified current limit. Your household current/voltage is irrelevant. I am talking about Gen1 Volt battery here, as Gen2 and newer could see improvement in this area.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:27 pm)There’s a new automaker in town called GM. There’s no point in referring to that other GM, they no longer exist. The new GM will sink or swim on it’s own merits and decision making and the cooperation it gets from the UAW. As I understand the stakeholders of the new GM are debt free as they should be.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:34 pm)Lyle says: “Those five stark words have been long been in the making.”
————————————
Well, Lyle, I have five new words that strikes my heart with terror. They are:
GENERAL MOTORS BECOMES GOVERNMENT MOTORS!!!!!!
‘Nuff said……….
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:37 pm)New GM, Old GM, none of it will make a difference to any of the automakers until people start buying cars again. This will require them to keep/find a job. Also, where’s the cash for clunkers? I’d like to see some “unadulterated speed” on that. Ahhhh.. the Fritz Blitz.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:40 pm)#117 RVD
It is somewhat irrelevant to talk about current battery technology when new batteries are already under development. From what I’ve read the current 40 mpc batteries won’t be around that long. I wouldn’t be surprised if GM came out with new li-ion batteries before 2011 that get better mileage.
Consider the facts, about 2 years ago they started working on the current battery. It only seems logical that in 4 years, 2011, they have developed an upgrade. Once breakthroughs are made, its a steady rise to perfection.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:41 pm)Meet the New Boss…same as the Old Boss.
Won’t get fooled again.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:48 pm)What is the truth to the story I heard over the weekend that the UAW president was bragging that they got everything they wanted in this Chapter 11 deal including the same wage and pension levels they had before. Where the cost savings is going to come from for the new Government Motors is the removal of debt to bondholders, suppliers and others not of the union persuasion. If the UAW is going to keep the same wages, pension and work rules, how long before this version of GM bites the dust? If this is true, I will not buy a Government Motors vehicle. Not a Volt, not a Camaro, not a pick-up truck. None, period. Somehow I don’t think I will be alone in this decision. Most people I know were already saying they would not because of the government interference. Some won’t because of the Chapter 11 issue. Some will wait it out and see how strong the company looks in two or three years. Some are already deciding to switch to Ford, Toyota or Honda.
Can anyone answer my question? With certainty?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:53 pm)#123 N Riley
A quick internet search doesn’t validate the story you heard over the weekend. A story like that would get a lot of play, wouldn’t it? Who did you hear the story from? A reliable source?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (1:54 pm)kent beuchert #115
Well I know what its like to lose big dinero in the stock market, I’m down $50,000 from last year. But given the odds which are about the same as blackjack in Vegas, I never bet on anything that I can’t afford to lose. Same goes for pension funds and the like.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:00 pm)#124 ThombDbhomb
That is the problem. This weekend I was too busy to listen to my “regular” set of news stations. I just don’t remember where it was I heard it. But it was on TV. I caught the tail end of it and they never came back to the suject while I was watching. I was only able to spend a very few minutes the whole weekend watching any news at all. My wife was off early Saturday morning to Costa Rica and with early morning T-Ball game and other activities plus church and a Boy Scout summer camp meeting, I just had a full weekend with the grand kids. My wife would normally be there to take up some of these activities and give me a break. Their Mom was working and could not do most of these things either. Boy, was I tired last night.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:05 pm)N Riley, i think you are correct that some people will switch. I dont know how much politics will play into it, maybe some. First they need to be able to buy a new car, then I assume they will try to stretch their dollar as far as they can, then personal preferences will come into play. If someone’s disgust at a car company is so great, that it overides any other variable, then I can easily see them switching to something else, no matter the situation. For me, I dont think i’m that disgusted with any of the car companies that I would throw logic out the window. if I was not a big fan of a certain car company (any of them), it still would be very hard for me to pass up a great deal or a great car.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:06 pm)#95, jeffhre,
The Japanese government did not fund development of the Prius, in spite of what Press might have said. Many years ago, Toyota execs admitted that funding the Prius was very hard on the company. After Press’ statement, Toyota denied it. And then Chrysler apologized on Press’ behalf for the mistake. Finally, if Japan Inc developed the Prius, why is Toyota allowed to collect license fees from Nissan for it?
Whenever you get some bit of bogus anti-Asian bashing article, you should give it a sniff test of your own to see if it’s legit. This one isn’t.
In fact, we know a system like HSD can be developed privately because Ford has done it.
GM’s problem isn’t that GM can’t come up with a hybrid system, GM’s problem (and it’s symptomatic of all GM’s ills) is that GM can’t BUILD a hybrid system cost-effectively. They have two systems, neither of which they can afford to build and sell to a market that would want them.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:08 pm)#126 N Riley
Since such a story sounds pretty explosive, yet not readily reported, my guess it was hot air from a pundit.
Good on you for having a life outside this blog.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:08 pm)From CNNMoney May 29:
“The union will have to reduce retiree health care coverage. But the union did not agree to any wage or benefit cuts for the 61,000 UAW members working at GM. However, the job protections for those members were reduced and GM has announced plans to cut hourly employment by about a third to 40,000 by next year as it shuts more than a dozen plants.”
————————–
Some reduction for retiree health care coverage, but not on wages or pension cost for current employees. So, they were able to maintain some of their high wage cost when compared to the foreigh owned car companies. I know they will have some reduction in cost, but they will also have quite a reduction in sales volumes for the next year or so. Maybe, maybe Government Motors will survive that long.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:10 pm)So, you’d rather buy a Japanese car instead of a “government motors” car?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:10 pm)A list of GM’s fifty (50) largest unsecured creditors published June 1 by the Detroit News.
http://detroitnews.com/article/20090601/AUTO01/906010371
Go Volt.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:16 pm)#127 k-dawg
I agree. A co-worker driver her son’s fairly new 4-door Chevrolet pick-up to work today. It is a sharp looking truck. People will still want to buy Chevy trucks if the government lets them be built. We will have to wait and see.
#129 ThombDbhomb
Yeah, it is good to have a life outside of this blog. And, yes, it could have been a pundit because I was watching one of those shows where you have a host with three or four “pundits” and it could have been during that. I don’t remember which one because I saw parts of two or three between switch channels to let the kids watch Noggin or some other station.
I wonder just what does it take to be a TV news talk show “pundit”? I know of quite a few on this blog that could qualify if all it takes is some hot air. Myself included, of course.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:22 pm)#90 NZDavid:
I think if the President, or his speechwriters, call up and ask, they probably can get the information ahead of us or the markets. Just a guess, hehe.
#99 Jim in PA:
Well don’t forget the warning device for the blind.
#100 nasaman:
Yeah, it goes right back to Dr. Dennis’ comment about the Volt starting out as a PR device and becoming the savior of the company. And a substantial amount of the credit must go to said Dr. Dennis, and all of these loyal (compulsive?) Volt bloggers, IMHO. My theory is that it doesn’t matter if they are positive or negative. It’s about the comment count. “Any ink is good ink.” Keep it up guys!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:33 pm)#131 ThombDbhomb
“So, you’d rather buy a Japanese car instead of a “government motors” car?”
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If that question was addressed to me, I will answer this way:
I already own a 2000 Nissan Frontier 4-door crew-cab pickup truck, a 2004 Honda Odyssey and a 2009 Honda Accord EX-L 4-door sedan. Up until the early 1990’s I was all GM. Since then I have owned one Chevrolet pickup and one Chevrolet convertible. Both vehicles were good vehicles. When it came time to buy a small crew-cab pickup, GM did not have one. When it came time to buy a mini-van, GM was outclassed by Honda and Toyota. Then when I wanted to buy a gap-car that would fit my needs, Chevrolet’s Malibu was too pricey for the size car compared to the Honda or the Prius. The 2009 Chevrolet Impala redesign was delayed and I did not want the old style Impala. So, I bought the Accord knowing I would have a good car to last me for years and one I could pass on to my wife or one of my kids, if necessary, knowing they would have a very dependable car. I would end up with either a Camaro convertible or a Volt (or both).
Now, I will have to really re-evaluate my purchase decisions and plan for the unexpected which is will Chevrolet be thee in two or three years. If not, I will buy a Ford before a Toyota. But I will continue giving Honda a very big look for any future vehicle (car or truck). If Honda came out with a hybrid convertible, it would be hard to resist. Not the Insight size – Accord size with a back seat for the grand kids. That is why I was looking forward to the Camaro convertible coming out. But I bet the government is going to ax the Camaro line before waiting to see if they really take off.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:36 pm)#134 Noel park
My theory is that it doesn’t matter if they are positive or negative. It’s about the comment count. “Any ink is good ink.” Keep it up guys!
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We have a fair share of positive and negative comments, for sure. But, I agree. It is the total numbers that count here. What is that old saying about it doesn’t matter what you say about me as long as you are talking about me? Always sounded like something a politician would say, to me.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:38 pm)109.
NZDavid Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
“I can do 32A at home so I expect to be able to charge my Volt in 1.09 hours.”
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I believe you will have to lower your expectations. There is a reason why Volt battery charging current will be limited – capacity fading issue. Basically, studies show approximately 10% (1C), 20% (2C) and 30% or more (3C) capacity is lost after 300 cycles for Li-ion batteries.
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He is absolutely correct. Typical rule of thumb and on spec sheets, is charge rate = .3C. So for the Volt at 40Ah * .3 = 12A @ 400VDC. This equates to 4800W. So if you have 230VAC you will need 4800/230 = 20.869A
That’s completely doable for most households but these are theoretical numbers that don’t take in consideration conversion losses and parasitic losses.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:39 pm)#116 Akio Toyoda – Thanks for the chuckle. Your Tokyo Rose routine cracks me up every time. Especially your bad Engrish.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:41 pm)Now that GM is government controlled, how about taking the Volt’s $7500 tax credit right off the sticker? Better yet, fix the price at $30,000 so we can get this new Low Oil Use (LOU) economy off the ground.
Order a few less missiles for Army training use. Redistribute the saved tax money into a green discount plan.
yes we can?
=D~
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:43 pm)#135 N Riley
My question was not aimed at you; I just threw it out there in response comments from others saying they would not buy a “government motors” car. I, like you, make my car purchases based on many variables. I’ve owned both domestic and foreign. Make the car I want, and I’ll buy it. Right now, I want AER from a regular car at a reasonable price. Actually, I want more than that, but I have to be realistic.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:44 pm)Reality check.
If gas stays in the sub $5/gallon regime. How in the world does a $40,000 volt compete for mass sales against a $19,000 Insight? Especially when you consider that Volt’s battery will have to be replaced at some point (5 yrs, 7 yrs, 10 yrs?).
The answer, of course, is that it doesn’t. In order for the volt to be competitive we have to see some combination of the following.
1. Volt price drops below 30,000.
2. Battery lasts well over 7 years and costs under $3K to replace.
3. Gas price climbs towards $8/ gal.
4. Gas has periods of unavailability.
I’m anxious to see the volt in production form (and see the real world numbers independently tested). But there’s basically no way the volt’s gonna help GM’s bottom line unless we start seeing something of items 1 through 4.
/also, if you believe car and driver, the camaro SS is going to have a tough time against the lightweight Mustang
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/muscle_cars/2010_chevy_camaro_ss_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt_2009_dodge_challenger_r_t_video
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:51 pm)#141 carcus1
How in the world does a $40,000 volt compete for mass sales against a $19,000 Insight? It has to offer something the Insight doesn’t. How about 40-miles AER? Some people will pay for that. As far as GM’s bottom line, it seems to be consensus that Voltec is not the immediate saviour, but key to long-term viability.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:54 pm)@Dave K 139
YOU GETTA HELLYEAH!!!!!!
AMEN BROTHA!
YOUDDA MAN!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (2:57 pm)RVD @ 117,
If that were the case, wouldn’t that mean that discharging the Volt’s battery in about an hour deliver a similar level of wear to the battery?
A very naive back-of-the-napkin calculation suggests that setting the cruise control at 40mph and drive until the ICE kicks in should put the power system through this drill.
–
P.S. I took some EE classes when I was an undergrad but, since they were digital design classes, and they didn’t cover C with respect to battery charge/discharge rates. (I took the classes since the CS degree I was working toward as practical as I wanted to be. (I worked my way through college as a sysadmin(I take care of computational big iron now.).).) I only started seeing this C (not capacitance) when I started shopping for batteries for a conversion that I have no intention of actually doing on my Ford Ranger — this C was never even alluded to me in all of my years hanging around engineering labs, or in any of the classes I took.
Captain Jack strikes me as being new to DC power electronics, but he’s really been doing his homework. Every time I see him post on the topic, his post appears to more solid and better informed than the last. His early posts on DC power electronics were rudimentary — but now most of them are fairly informative. Seeing a guy learn so fast is extraordinarily cool, and I really respect that.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:05 pm)Well….
If the Prius doesn’t take the bulk of the high mileage car sales this year, they will probably get it next year. Apparently Toyota says they underestiamted the demand….
“Surprise, Prius so popular Toyota will increase production rate to 500,000 a year”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/01/surprise-prius-so-popular-toyota-is-increasing-production-rate/
I have a feeling Toyota has something up their sleeve with this model. Something not too advertised.
Hey “john1701a”, you have a 2010 Prius, does the the all electric run time feel much longer than your previous version? Also, assuming you know where the batt pack is, are there tamper proof stickers still there? I ask because with the beefier motors should, with augmented batt pack, get you a 10 mile AER. I have a feeling this model was designed for such a mod for future higher AER runs for a PHEV-10.
Just my nerdy thought. Thanks in advance john1701a ….
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:06 pm)N.Riley #131 says
I will not buy a Government Motors vehicle. Not a Volt, not a Camaro, not a pick-up truck. None, period. Somehow I don’t think I will be alone in this decision.
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That is my view too, at least for today. Over the longer term, we’ll see what happens. If they have a superior product at a superior price, they can be reconsidered at that time, but it will have to be superior, not equal, to offset the risk of abrupt changes in terms after the fact.
An important factor for me is the warranty, and a car from Government Motors has no warranty. What is called that is just another version of “unsecured creditor”, i.e., people who don’t count for much and whom we will disregard whenever we decide to. (really, not joking). You may show up at the dealer and find an empty field, so then you can, maybe, go to the post office? Write your congressman? Walk?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:07 pm)Dave K 139:
Trust me friend, every missile fired in training contributes to saving a life in combat. Your military men and women deserve every dollar to train them to survive and come home, so THEY too can buy a new Volt.
These guys and gals don’t just shoot these things to get their jollies off.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:10 pm)#132 srschrier said
A list of GM’s fifty (50) largest unsecured creditors published June 1 by the Detroit News.
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Thank you for the link.
I guess if they don’t pay the Exxon bill the will need the Volts even sooner than they think
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:19 pm)@Luke 144
I’m you friendly neighborhood trailer park maggot that builds hobbygrade batt packs…..lol…….and consumes 12 packs.
“If that were the case, wouldn’t that mean that discharging the Volt’s battery in about an hour deliver a similar level of wear to the battery?”
That is almost correct. The Volt will never allow you to cycle below 30 “Real” SOC and charge above 85% “Real” SOC. Draining within the buffered zone is fine. Most if not all lipo cells will almost always have a much higher drain C rate than charge C rate. Pull some specs up from all those cells the DIY’rs use and they will always have a “Designed” higher C rate on discharge. They only stipulate a low charge rate as “Typical” because it is just safer and gives you longer life. This is changing though but won’t really be used in bulk till the nano types and lattice types come down in price. There was on more but I forgot what it was….
Since I won’t be able to afford a Volt till Gen2, I have decided to buy a donor car next year to convert myself. OK, with the help of some other DIY’rs you can find in http://www.diyelectriccar.com/. Ijust can’t wait to rip the ICE out….lol
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:27 pm)How long to recharge 8 kWh @ 230 V and 32 amps. Obviously this works out to an initial power flow of 7.36 kW. So just over an hour appears to be valid. If we toss in that the typical charging profile would have the rate decrease as the SOC nears maximum, we have to make a guess at the additional time added due to not being at 32 amps near the end of the recharge. Next, note we are not taking the battery to maximum SOC, but probably around 90%. Throw that into the hat and a reasonable guess for a fast recharge would be about one and a half hours.
What was of greater interest was that the Volvo plan is to use about 71% of the initial capacity, whereas the GM design as initially disclosed was to use 50%. I keep hoping they will increase the SOC window from 8 kWh to 10 kWh. Time will tell if the new GM will step out of the engineering morass and join the industry consensus.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:28 pm)#132 srschrier said
A list of GM’s fifty (50) largest unsecured creditors published June 1 by the Detroit News.
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Some interesting ones in there. I think GM owes my company about $70,000. Not so bad when compared to those other guys.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:31 pm)149 CapJack
Since I won’t be able to afford a Volt till Gen2, I have decided to buy a donor car next year to convert myself. OK, with the help of some other DIY’rs you can find in http://www.diyelectriccar.com/. Ijust can’t wait to rip the ICE out….lol
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If I lived in a warmer environment, i would totally consider this. However, I need something I can drive year round. Would be fun to mess w/though if i had free time. (can you buy free time on Craigslist?)
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:34 pm)@Luke 144
“If that were the case, wouldn’t that mean that discharging the Volt’s battery in about an hour deliver a similar level of wear to the battery?”
If you look at it in a DIY’rs case, then yes that is fact. Why? Because they run the pack close to threshold of OVC and OVP. I call it NDE (Near Death Experince). Plus any charger that can fast charge is usually cost prohibitive anyway. Probably in the $4K range. Most are 30A because NEMA socket at home = 30A
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:40 pm)Tony Gray 147,
I’ve fired off plenty of ammo in my day. Thank Christ I never had to shoot anyone. 18 missiles a practice session, or 20, is still practice.
How about ordering more sim units for training? This will help the tech community get rolling again.
My wife works for a company that is involved in guidance system production for the military. She is on a temporary reduced schedule of just 32 hours a week, non union. We’re getting by fine. I cashed in $3000 in today’s market surge and will buy the nest dip.
We as a nation need to realize some real gain from this bailout road we’re following. Shall we just keep flushing tax dollars as we thrash at an angry giant?
Do I like the idea of a government run car company? No, but this is our new reality. The $30,000 Volt. Build it and they will come.
cheers CaptJack
=D~
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:50 pm)@k-dawg 152
” (can you buy free time on Craigslist?)”
Not anymore, they took off the listings under erotic services….I just checked.
=oP
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Jun 1st, 2009 (3:59 pm)I expected a post titled “General Motors Files For Bankruptcy” to get a lot of action. This seems like a regular day.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (4:02 pm)Twas like paying Taxes Matey, the day has come, but not surprised.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (4:36 pm)#
charlie h Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 2:06 pm
#95, jeffhre,
The Japanese government did not fund development of the Prius, in spite of what Press might have said. Many years ago, Toyota execs admitted that funding the Prius was very hard on the company. After Press’ statement, Toyota denied it. And then Chrysler apologized on Press’ behalf for the mistake.
____________________________
Of course, how stupid of me to intimate that the former head of Toyo of America would know more about any secret, internecine financing arrangements that could be absolutely explosive in restraint of trade negotiation/litigation fights than charlie h.
No reason for Japan to try to cover their tracks there. Boy, I sure won’t make that mistake again!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (4:38 pm)144.
Luke Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 2:57 pm
RVD @ 117,
I believe you will have to lower your expectations. There is a reason why Volt battery charging current will be limited – capacity fading issue. Basically, studies show approximately 10% (1C), 20% (2C) and 30% or more (3C) capacity is lost after 300 cycles for Li-ion batteries. In other words, your battery will be irreparably damaged after 3-5 years of high current charging. Given 10 years average car life and GM warranty, GM will simply not allow you to go over specified current limit. Your household current/voltage is irrelevant. I am talking about Gen1 Volt battery here, as Gen2 and newer could see improvement in this area.
If that were the case, wouldn’t that mean that discharging the Volt’s battery in about an hour deliver a similar level of wear to the battery?
A very naive back-of-the-napkin calculation suggests that setting the cruise control at 40mph and drive until the ICE kicks in should put the power system through this drill.
———————-
Only 50% of Volt’s battery capacity is available for driving. Why? Because GM knows damn well that car has to support all electric drive for 40 miles during warranty period. In other words Volt’s battery will be 50% dead after warranty ends. Now, fast charging will only accelerate its death, therefore GM will enforce current limit or void battery warranty if you hack recommended usage.
The other question is: what would be the Volt depreciation after warranty period ends?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (4:41 pm)Lyle,
I have something very very funny to post, but, I really need your help like no-one has needed it before.
Is there any way that you could verify Post #116 as authentic?
There are lots of other things that are very much more serious that I can post here, but, most of all, I have a need-to-know that Post #116 is
THE Mr. Toyoda, of Toyota Motors Inc.
Could you post that as
“Yes, Dan, that is THE Mr. Toyoda of Toyota Motors Inc.”
and sign it yourself?
(At the last allowable post for this topic today).
That way, I will be ready when he posts once again, and, I will not have a misdirected set of posts that are funny. It must be authentic. as most of all, I must have verification, and, I need you to certify that to us all. There may possibly be a more serious side to the humor.
Dan.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (4:48 pm)#114 LauraM says “If no world government intervened, then Toyota and Honda would have been able to take advantage of the collapse of GM, Chrysler, and others, and increase their market share to offset their losses.”
I understand your point — it’s what you learn in Economics 101 — but I’m not sure this is how it would have worked out here. The drop was simply too fast and the inventory was too large. You had demand halving, so picking up their share wouldn’t make up for the difference. Also, GM and Chrysler had a ton of vehicles in inventory (they really haven’t made many more). If you dumped those on the market it would be like having all the home foreclosures coming on the market, resulting in further downward pressure on prices to well below cost. So having GM and Chrysler go 7 would have more likely resulted in a worse rather than better financial situation for Toyota and Honda in the short run. They may have been better off in the long term, but given the lack of available credit it is highly unlikely that, absent government assistance, they would have been able to make it to the other side to reap those benefits.
Moreover, as Toyota and Honda pointed out last Fall during the Senate hearings, if GM went Chapter 7 then a good bit of the supply chain used by both the Detroit automakers and the transplants would have gone under. And when that happened Toyota and Honda would not have been able to make autos for quite some time, so they would not have been able to take advantage of any market opening.
But the idea that governments wouldn’t have intervened is unrealistic. They all have and we can probably agree that this isn’t going to end anytime soon.
#160 Dan Petit
I can’t imagine it’s authentic.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (4:54 pm)Ed M Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 1:40 pm
#117 RVD
It is somewhat irrelevant to talk about current battery technology when new batteries are already under development. From what I’ve read the current 40 mpc batteries won’t be around that long. I wouldn’t be surprised if GM came out with new li-ion batteries before 2011 that get better mileage.
Consider the facts, about 2 years ago they started working on the current battery. It only seems logical that in 4 years, 2011, they have developed an upgrade. Once breakthroughs are made, its a steady rise to perfection.
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I do not think this “computer” logic applies to cars. Car battery has to be SAFE and tested for years in different conditions/regions to avoid extremely expensive recalls and lawsuits. I am not expert, but IMHO production in huge quantities can not easily switch the battery technology. I think GM will play safe and will release Volt with Gen1 battery if everything will work out. This will be technologically outdated battery, but tested and proven.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (4:54 pm)#160 Dan Petit
I can’t imagine it’s authentic.
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It’s as authentic as I am Johnny Dep.
lol
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:03 pm)#142 Thombd
” How about 40-miles AER? Some people will pay for that. ”
________________
My guess is that it’s reasonable to assume lightweight BEV’s with something around 100 mi AER will be around mid $20’s, maybe even below $20k in the coming years. I don’t see that much room for the Volt’s price to drop.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:16 pm)Hey “john1701a”, you have a 2010 Prius, does the the all electric run time feel much longer than your previous version?
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There’s definitely more electric activity now. 42 MPH is still the engine-motionless limit, but there’s more play to it (not as sensitive). And the POWER mode is wild, providing much more punch with accelerating up hills than you’d expect. It sure surprised me.
It’s pretty obvious that the design is setup to support plug augmentation… which is why I had been pushing for high-volume Volt penetration sooner. Now I don’t have to. The other 2010 owners will.
Also, the solar feature is “cool”. It’s really odd though getting into a parked car with the air circulation system already running. You can clearly here the fan running when inside and the benefit is obvious.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:25 pm)Why should I believe the volt is anything but a PR stunt turned tar baby? Why shouldn’t I think that GM engineers are stuck trying to polish this hybrid turd into a diamond?
Don’t you think by now we’d see one. . . . just one working example of an EREV that’s getting prius type mpg numbers in the charge sustaining mode????
One working example from an independent auto maker, a foreign automaker, a home builder, . . . . . . somebody???
To date, the only example that gets anywhere close is AC propulsions 2002 VW and those numbers weren’t great. . . .plus those guys don’t even want anything to do with EREV now. They’re BEV proponents.
So let’s see it GM. (I’m a company owner now, I demand it)
Let’s see:
40 mile AER with anything less than perfect conditions (i.e. AC on, or 25 deg F)
50 mpg in charge sustaining mode utilizing the same epa standards as everybody else (US06, high speed)
Something that doesn’t have power fade issues in charge sustaining mode.
Something that doesn’t trash the batteries in about 1/2 the time a BEV would.
How’s that working out? Am I asking too much? Did you promise too much? Are you going to come back to the well in 4 or 5 months promising the wondercar is allllllmost ready, just need another $20 Billion to make it happen?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:26 pm)couple weeks ago we had a post supposedly from mr honda. maybe mr tesla is next. lol
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:26 pm)@john1701a 165
“42 MPH is still the engine-motionless limit”
Just curious if that was a flat run and how long? My commute is 10 miles flat all the way and traffic MIGHT get up to 55.
“It’s pretty obvious that the design is setup to support plug augmentation”
Yup, I think the “PHEV” mods is going to be called the “PHEV-10″ mods now.
Thanks for the data dude!
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:31 pm)In the end
We won the war
So Soddy
Danke Shane
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:32 pm)There is no way #116 is real. With his company losing $8 billion per quarter, Toyoda would be a fool to get cocky now. The difference between GM and Toyota? GM was flying at a lower altitude so they hit the ground first.
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:35 pm)Oh noooooo! My bank just ruptcied. Anyone wanna buy my stock?
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Jun 1st, 2009 (5:38 pm)#164 carcus1
If it’s reasonable to assume lightweight BEV’s with something around 100 mi AER will be around mid $20’s, maybe even below $20k in the coming years, then it is reasonable to assume t