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Frank Weber Says Chevy Volt is Necessary and Relevant For Energy Independence

May 29th, 2009 | Posted in: Public Opinion

Frank Weber is GM’s Volt vehilce line executive, an extremely bright mild-mannered and humble German engineer with laser beam precision accuracy and vision. After visiting the EVS24 symposium in Norway he was so inspired to pen a piece about the relevance of the Volt.

Frank had the feeling many of the world’s brightest minds think electric cars development should be in the pervue of the start-up not a large industrial company like GM.

He has set out to prove them wrong.

Weber says electric cars aren’t about a “green niche” but a necessary tool to end oil dependence.

“Hand-built vehicles may capture the imagination of some, but we need millions of cars to truly address this global issue,” writes Weber.

Not only does GM have the assets to develop millions of electric cars but has the experience and expertise to make them “relevant.”

He explains that the E-REV design allows GM to limit battery size and thereby cost, making the technology affordable to more people. It also allows flexibility for people to recharge if they can or need to, but to run on gas if necessary without any fear of range anxiety.

Weber believes electrically-driven vehicles are “the way of the future” and that GM is better equipped than any start-ups to deliver large volume of electric cars globally. He continues to keep his promise of a November 2010 launch.

Source (FastLane) and (Gas2)

Posted by: Lyle

168 Responses to “Frank Weber Says Chevy Volt is Necessary and Relevant For Energy Independence”

Van Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:17 am

First again

Will GM lead the way, or light the way due to limited availability until overtaken by Toyota and Honda and Kia and others?

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Adrian Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:23 am

He is right. The Volt and electric cars are the future. Costs too much right now.
He also forgot to say drilling for own oil (for Trucks, planes, boats, Military use) which is just as huge. Just removing gasoline/diesel from cars doesn’t make us energy independent. Just one step of many…

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TALLPALL Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:26 am

*** Less than 550 days to go ***

Tick tock tick tock………

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Dave K. Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:29 am

Use of natural gas and battery cars are the bridge over the oil abyss.

I recently bought two new higher capacity batteries for my son’s RC. They are the same size and weight as the old ones. His range jumped from 7 minutes at (to scale) 60 mph. To 20 minutes.

=D~

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nuclearboy Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:33 am

Frank is saying the right things. Electric cars are a good path forward. The VOLT is just a tiny step in the direction that we might go. Hopefully in ten years electric cars are easy to buy and easy to find. We live in interesting times.

On a depressing note from our Govt today, out debt has just reached $63.8 Trillion.
thats 6.38 x 10^13 or $63,800,000,000,000.00

If each household in America could just pitch in an additional $546,668.00 on their tax form, we could pay this off.

Mind boggling to think about.

If you elect me as President, I will develop a plan to start paying this down within 9 years (after I leave office)….

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nuclearboy Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:36 am

#4 Dave K.

I have also noted the great strides in batteries over the past 10 years in the little things that I use. Things are clearly headed in a good direction. In another 10 years we should expect accellerated advances in batteries now that the govt. and automakers are in the game.

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Schmeltz Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:36 am

He wrote a very good piece on the EREV. Recommend to read Frank’s column over at Fastlane Blog, (see source above) or click on this link:

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/05/how_gm_is_making_electric_vehicles_relevant.html

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PLJ Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:39 am

I like this Frank Weber guy. He exudes intelligence, especially when he’s on when he’s on video.

I think GM should use him in future commercials.

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charlie h Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:44 am

Puh-leeze. What will make electric cars relevant is their availability, in large quantities at prices people can afford.

A $40K car in quantities of 1000/month is about as relevant to the typical driver as a Corvette.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:51 am

It’s the last business day of “business-as-usual”.
Have a great weekend!
Looking forward to Monday!
Not.

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GLV Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:52 am

charlie h @ #9 Says: “A $40K car in quantities of 1000/month is about as relevant to the typical driver as a Corvette.”

I know…I too am impatient to own a Volt…but you have to walk before you can run. At this point in history, I’m just amazed that GM can realistically still project the numbers they are, when they are…given the last thread’s discussion on GM’s pending bankruptcy. It really goes to show that the government is behind the electrification of the automobile…and GM.

LJGTVWOTR! =)

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:52 am

I think Mr Weber’s opinions are right, I just hoped he would add the Opel Ampera in the picture even if GME becomes more indepedent from GMNA.

Regards,

JC NPNS

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Jackson Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:53 am

“A $40K car in quantities of 1000/month” is a vast improvement over the hand-built, hugely expensive curiosities which are the reality of today’s EVs.

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ronr64 Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:09 am

I realize that $40,000 is a ton of money for many people, but look around next time you drive at the number of $40K+ vehicles on the road. Look at all the Suburbans and Tahoes on the road, most if not all were $40K+. Lexus, Cadillacs, Corvettes even the new Camaro all loaded up is $40K. The obvious difference of course is that none of these vehicles are sold under the premise of “economical” which is what ultimately the Volts promise has to eventually be.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:11 am

I agree that the E-REV is the way to go for now.

Improvements will make it obsolete someday. But it really is perfect for today.

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MarkinWI Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:14 am

#9&#11 – Jackson’s right. Volt is a great first step (or second step) towards affordable electric cars. It is only a matter of time.

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kent beuchert Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:18 am

It’s not really about “energy independence.” It’s about “foreign oil independence.”
Just read a British news article entitled “It’s all about the batteries.”
Here in the looney states, (all 57 of them, and as our totally brainless Prez says, “We don’t speak no Austrian”) those of the younger, dumber, and less competitive generation search for evil corporate types and conspiracies to explain events. Look every place but in the mirror, folks.

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DonC Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:19 am

I agree with the sentiments expressed in the article though I doubt Frank Weber wrote this without a lot of editorial help. [Pet Peeve - could you stop using the term masses? Reminds me of the movie on the French Revolution with the rampaging mob.] A point made more implicitly than explicitly is that you need a large company to validate a technological space. Just like IBM validated the PC and unleashed a decade of innovation, so can GM validate the EV and set us on a much faster adoption rate for electric vehicles than is presently imagined.

Which brings us to the comments like charlie h’s in #9 along the lines of “it’s only 10K vehicles so who cares”. Obviously these folks have missed the point made by GLV that you have to walk before you can run. In this regard, we should note that Toyota took years to get to 10K units a year. In 2000, three years after they started selling the Prius, Toyota sold about 5K cars in NA. If GM manufacturers and sells 10K Volts in the first year, that will probably be more EVs (not including NEVs) than have been produced by all manufacturers over the last 75 years. So no, 10K isn’t shabby as a starting point.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:36 am

A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. So 10000 steps isn’t a bad start at all.

You are right (#9 Charlie) that the gen 1 Volt will not save the planet and make us all hug a whale, BUT it CAN open the door to “the masses” with an actual useable electric car that people can live with.

This is the ‘magic’ of the Voltec drivetrain. The point that keeps getting missed here by many of the contributors is that the Volt is NOT the end goal. The Volt is destined to be the ‘grandfather’ to a whole new kind of vehicle. There will be pickups and vans and sports cars to follow but the Volt has to come first.

Yes GM has made mistakes in the past, but with the Volt they are hanging it way out there and for that I give them credit where it is due.

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DonC Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:38 am

#17 kent beuchert says “It’s not really about “energy independence.” It’s about “foreign oil independence.””

The equation of how, with 2% of the world’s oil reserves, you can indefinitely consume 25% of the world’s oil output without relying on foreign oil, escapes me. Must belong to that dumber and less competent set! LOL I guess we should leave this alchemy to the older, smarter, and more competent set that invented the secret sauce for turning subprime mortgages into triple A rated securities. Oh, wait, that didn’t turn out so well …

http://lugar.senate.gov/energy/security/reserves.cfm

#15 Rashiid says “But it really is perfect for today.”

This is funny because you, with the very 100 mile long commute, are probably among the few that it doesn’t work so well for.

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James K Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:52 am

Holy Toledo, GM stock is at .90 a share! I never thought I’d see that in my lifetime. I wonder if they will get delisted or moved to the OTC penny stock exchange?

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Brian Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:57 am

I agree, the Volt is not going to make any kind of realistic impact at the price point and volume. It’s more of a curiosity or niche car. Simple economics and what the average American can afford show that the Volt won’t make much of a difference unfortunately.

To really achieve energy independence we need to get efficient cars in the hands of the masses. We need 50+mpg hybrids under $20k or low cost BEVs for a large impact to occur. Those could sell in the millions per year.

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k-dawg Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:01 am

Frank & Bob talkin’ ’bout the Volt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31j6_2tLdKM

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RB Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:02 am

#18 DonC says
[Pet Peeve - could you stop using the term masses? Reminds me of the movie on the French Revolution with the rampaging mob.]
——————————————–

As an exception to my general rule of automatically disagreeing with whatever DonC says (smile here), I find that I have to agree with him wholeheartedly on this point.

Using “masses” to describe the customers of the Volt conjures up images of refugees in the bottom of ships, as so well identified in “huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” These poor souls are not going to be the customers of the Volt, a car that is high tech and expensive. Further, used in today’s context, “masses” has a negative connotation, that is, not people we (as superior people) want to associate with.

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RB Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:10 am

Weber believes electrically-driven vehicles are “the way of the future” and that GM is better equipped than any start-ups to deliver large volume of electric cars globally. He continues to keep his promise of a November 2010 launch
———————————————————–

In a general way I agree with Weber’s thoughts. He is a smart guy and gives us information, not just talk. That said, what will be most needed are customers willing to spend their own money. Weber’s statement has the generality to appeal to the President and Congress, but an individual customer is going to be thinking about price, performance, size, and suitability to that customer’s needs.

That potential customer will not (with only a few exceptions) be trying to save the world (or the USA) with the purchase of a single car, as she will recognize correctly that a single car will not have any real effect on the world. That customer will be thinking about her own family. That is, Mr Weber needs to find a different way to express his thoughts if he wants to address individuals and persuade them to use their own money to buy Volts, if prices are where we expect them to be, it will be a hard sell.

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k-dawg Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:13 am

Frank on the Opel Ampera
(2.5 hour charge = 60km?)
http://fr.truveo.com/opel-ampera-en/id/1754146240

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David K (CT) Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:13 am

So, what do we call ourselves?

Voltectites?
Voltecies?

I like Voltsters, eh?

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k-dawg Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:15 am

Voltcans…. heh

Drive far… and petrol-free

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:16 am

My apologies for using the term “Masses” what I meant of course is that there needs to be acceptance by “John Q Public” which means it has to just be a good car. I see the non-remarkable driving experience comments to be very positive, for this car to make a difference it has to be a no brainer. Bob the accountant or Mary the homemaker have to be able to sit in it, feel at home and just be able to drive. Anything less than that could screw it all up.

Keep up the good work Frank, and please remember that Lyle would be a great reveal point for the range extender public showing! (Thanks again for all your hard work Lyle!)

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:17 am

DonC # 20 says,

Rashiid says “But it really is perfect for today.”

This is funny because you, with the very 100 mile long commute, are probably among the few that it doesn’t work so well for.

–
Ah, so true my friend. However, it is perfect for 80% of us, and my wife is included in that 80%.

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David K (CT) Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:19 am

k-dawg @ 26…

European standard voltage is 220, I believe.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:20 am

There is nothing wrong with the use of the word “masses”. However, we could substitute with “GP” for General Population.

Which is the meaning of the word “masses” when used here anyway.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:25 am

@Rashiid Amul 15

“I agree that the E-REV is the way to go for now.”

Your wrong, it’s “the E-REV is the way to GROW for now”.
Hopefully the ICE in the Volt will shrink from a 4banger to a 3 to a 2 down to a lawnmower engine (threw that in for Musk). But it is a platform that should be versatile enough to where you should be able to replace the genset with another batt pack.

The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:26 am

@Rashiid Amul 32

“General Population”

Those are Prison terms man!!!!!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
You crak me up…..

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Would GM’s Bankruptcy Derail the Chevy Volt? - Environmental Capital - WSJ Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:27 am
N Riley Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:29 am

As the article says: “Weber believes electrically-driven vehicles are “the way of the future” and that GM is better equipped than any start-ups to deliver large volume of electric cars globally. He continues to keep his promise of a November 2010 launch.”
——————————–

I agree we need a GM type company to accomplish this. A Tesla type company may never reach enough mass to accomplish what a GM type company can do in just a few years. Not trying to say Tesla will not grow to become a large, important company. I believe they will if they can get the cost of their cars down where ordinary folks, like most of us, can afford them. Same for GM, Ford, etc.

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BillR Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:30 am

#14 ronr64,

“I realize that $40,000 is a ton of money for many people, but look around next time you drive at the number of $40K+ vehicles on the road. ”

Looking at the vehicles that I see on the road, I would have to agree that there are many people who can afford a $40k vehicle.

How many? Millions and millions.

Many of these people will not base their decision on “gasoline savings”. It will be based on the desire to drive a new technology, be the first on the block with an E-REV, and the “fun-to-drive” factor.

Gen II and Gen III will likely be less expensive, but also, the used Volts will be attractive to those will lower income brackets.

As others have mentioned, it will be like plasma TV’s or other new technology. The cost will moderate with time, and the early adopters will be those with more financial means than the “masses”.

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k-dawg Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:32 am

GM reportedly reaches deal to sell Opel to Magna

May 29, 2009 11:08:00 (ET)

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — General Motors Corp. and Magna International Inc. reportedly hammered out a deal Friday that could rescue GM’s German Opel division ahead of the U.S. automaker’s expected bankruptcy filing.

The two sides reached a framework agreement and are trying to work out as many of the details as possible before meeting with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in order to sign a memorandum of understanding, according to Reuters.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:38 am

@BillR 37

“Looking at the vehicles that I see on the road, I would have to agree that there are many people who can afford a $40k vehicle.”

That’s assuming they ALL bought them new. Everyone I know bough theirs used. Some 2yrs old some 9mths old from a repo or some sh|t like that.

“Many of these people will not base their decision on “gasoline savings”. ”

Correctamundo! There’s no way an SUV would be based on that decision. But they did base it on how many crimbsnathcers they have an MIGHT (friends and family) have to tag along to the snow or Disneyland. That said, why would they consider a Volt?

OK, ran out of Kahlua, gotto run to the store real quick….

The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.

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BillR Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:45 am

Regarding the big company versus little company story.

My philosophy goes like this. The large corporation is like a giant steam roller, paving the road in a given direction. It has a great deal of inertia, is resistant to changing directions, and isn’t concerned with anything outside its pathway.

The small company is only paving on a small scale, going in a different direction, and can change directions much more quickly.

However, should the large corporation decide to go in the same direction as the small company, you must change directions, jump on their machine, or be prepared to get run over!

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Van Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:45 am

It is not true that Karl Marx said “Gas guzzlers are the opiate of the masses.”

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Anthony BC Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:50 am

“He explains that the E-REV design allows GM to limit battery size and thereby cost, making the technology affordable to more people.” Obviously Frank is commenting on VOLT 2, VOLT 3, etc.

The VOLT Gen 1 will be a great start @ 10K units, but If GM’s keeps up with Gen 2 2013 @ $30K, Gen 3 2015 @ $20K, etc. this will then finally make a difference & be affordable to the “masses”, the true ‘masses”.

GO EV!

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BillR Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:50 am

#39 CaptJack,

“That’s assuming they ALL bought them new. Everyone I know bough theirs used. Some 2yrs old some 9mths old from a repo or some sh|t like that.”

True, but Somebody, Somewhere, had to buy them new (or perhaps lease them).

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GM Volt Fan Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:55 am

GM needs to get super focused on beating Toyota and Honda. Period.

They need to rethink every tiny little feature in their cars and trucks and make sure that they match up well vs Toyota and Honda … if not exceed them. That’s the key. Start getting the good PR for being industry leaders in quality, reliability, and interior/exterior styling and GM will make a big comeback.

GM needs to make damn sure that their top 20 vehicles match up well against the competition when people get on the internet and start doing their research on cars they are thinking about buying. Just like this article says, it takes more than just some flashy commercials to get people to buy a new car these days. They research each car inside and out.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/may2009/db20090527_888775.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_news+%2B+analysis

I want to see GM come back stronger than ever. I want GM to win over Generation Y customers and everyone else. I want people to brag about their latest GM vehicle purchase and make us car enthusiasts a bit envious. I want GM products to showcase the very best of what American engineers and factory workers are capable of. I want people to associate in their minds this: American car = cool looking, high quality, reliable car.

Get ‘er done GM.

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:57 am

@ #32 Rashiid,
>> “GP” for General Population.

That makes me feel like I’m headed for prison.

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Jackson Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:58 am

#27, #28 (David K, k-dawg):

Voltechs? (or will they be what replace “Mr. Goodwrench?”)

#33 (Cap’n Jack):

I’d like to see the EREV grow in two directions:

1) smaller engine, ‘bigger’ battery (in terms of capacity)

2) modest engine, ‘better’ battery (in terms of energy density and cycle life)

The first is the one I’d most likely buy, but I think there may be a great market for the second: a vehicle which uses the battery simply as a “buffer” to allow a generator to supply average power requirement (a “Plug Free Volt” to quote a former poster).

The “better” battery that can be smaller yet have many more cycles (and supply heavy-use power spikes for acceleration) does not yet exist; but could soon. Even if these cells cost twice what the current Volt cells cost, you’d use fewer of them; so much so that the equivalent Volt-size car could cost less.

GM would be very nicely placed with it’s Voltec experience (gensets, electric drive, software control) to absorb this new development, probably into a wider range of vehicles (including larger ones which would be difficult to charge for a 40+ mile range).

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:04 am

@GM Volt Fan 44

“GM needs to get super focused on beating Toyota and Honda. Period. ”

I agree 110%.
The new Chevy Spark should be a full BEV. That would take market share for the Insight, Prius and the new Ford Focus BEV. They have the batt pack and the programs to manage the pack, why not slap it in a small BEV.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:05 am

AP says the new Chevy Spark will be built in the US

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:08 am

@Jackson 46

“I’d like to see the EREV grow in two directions: ”

And the rest of your post I agree. For me, I want a small pickup truck. I do some moderatly hard work (hard because I’m an old fart) and a pickup would be more usefull. Say a Colorado. Range is no big deal as the dump and recycle place is only about 25miles one way from me. An EREV Pickup would be ideal.
Raser has that big a$$ Hummer EREV why not make a Pickup Truck.

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LauraM Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:10 am

#12 Jean-Charles Jacquemin

I’d love to know what’s going on with the Opel Ampera too. From what I understand GM isn’t selling the patents. (Assuming they have patents?)

#39 CaptJackSparrow

Maybe. But someone had to buy those cars new. It will be the same with the Volt.

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N Riley Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:10 am

#39 CaptJackSparrow

There’s no way an SUV would be based on that decision. But they did base it on how many crimbsnathcers they have an MIGHT (friends and family) have to tag along to the snow or Disneyland. That said, why would they consider a Volt?
—————————————-

You are correct. Why would they consider a Volt when they are thinking about carrying capacity? As a second or third car, yes, but that SUV or mini-van will still be in the driveway. At least until GM can grow the Voltec technology to address those needs of the consumer. And that will not be any time soon, in my opinion.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:11 am

@ThombDbhomb

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/29/general-motors-will-build-new-small-car-in-idled-us-factory/

The Spark looks pretty good. Might give the Fit a fit and the Matrix a problem. I wonder how much it will be?

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N Riley Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:16 am

Capt Jack,

“The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.”
—————————

I have meaning to address your statement above. If I were to say something like that it would be:

“The ICEAge is over, Embrace the new ICEAge.”

Meaning two things. One, less reliance on an Internal Combustion Engine (as in the Volt and a BEV) and two, the coming possibility of a real ice age approaching within the next 100 years.

But, I get your meaning and it is a good one. I just think a little different since I don’t drink as many beers as you say you do. Have another, Capt Jack.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:19 am

Mike-o-matic # 45
CaptJackSparrow # 34.

Sorry guys. I didn’t mean to make it sound like prison.
That had never occurred to me.

Masses is the same as John Q. Public as MuddyRoverRob #29 stated above.

Either way, it would be very helpful if the Volt was priced at a level that the average worker bee could afford.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:23 am

Very well put – brief, concise and dead on correct.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:27 am

@LauraM 50

“Maybe. But someone had to buy those cars new. It will be the same with the Volt.”

True but there is also a resaon why they no longer own it anymore.

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statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:32 am

From the article:

“Frank Weber is GM’s Volt vehilce line executive, an extremely bright mild-mannered and humble German engineer…”

…and apparently now, a PR man too.

Seriously, it is a nice article, very precise and clear…but don’t they have like a legion of guys to write on the fastlane blog and tell us things like, “Not only does GM have the assets to develop millions of electric cars but has the experience and expertise to make them “relevant.”? (BTW…Do they now Frank?)

What is Phil LaNeve doing anywhoo that makes Weber a PR guy? Maybe he is busy penning the next monthly installment of “why ***insert month here*** sales are really awesome despite what the numbers say”.

/let Frank go back to fixing the ‘ER’ part of our EREV already, the clock is running. Besides, everyone knows if you let engineers out into the sunlight, they only want more.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:32 am

@N Riley 53

Well in those terms then, Ice keeps the beer cold.
=op

Yeeeeehaaaaw!

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Fred Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:36 am

What a great idea, why don’t we ask Frank Weber (GM’s Volt vehilce line executive) if the Volt is a great idea. Maybe next we should ask the oil companies if we should keep making non-fuel economic cars and get rid or hybrids.

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statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:41 am

#21 James K said:

Holy Toledo, GM stock is at .90 a share! I never thought I’d see that in my lifetime. I wonder if they will get delisted or moved to the OTC penny stock exchange?
=================
Apparently, they get to stay on the DOW forever, lol. (500 million cap and dropping).

Wouldn’t it be ironic if Toyota replaced them? (not sure if a ADR can be a DOW component to tell you the truth…and I’m too lazy to go look it up)

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:44 am

@statik 60

Hey statik, Autoblogg did a rendered speculation of the Pugeot model of the iMiev for you…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/29/rendered-speculation-peugeot-008-french-imiev/

It looks pretty cool. Doubt it will look like that but it’s something to tease you with.

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charlie h Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:47 am

#57, statik, “What is Phil LaNeve doing anywhoo that makes Weber a PR guy? Maybe he is busy penning the next monthly installment of “why ***insert month here*** sales are really awesome despite what the numbers say”.

ROTFLOL.

I think you meant Mark La Neve, though. But it’s still really, really funny.

Do you ever listen to the monthly sales and production conference calls? I just love listening to those hucksters once a month. One of the regulars, I can’t recall which one, sounds like he’s a cheap lawyer for Mafia goons.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:50 am

Flat screen TV’s used to be $20k! I just bought mine new for $1200.

All new products start out expensive and the price comes down.
Jeez people, you really ought to know this.

There will be buyers for the smaller production number gen 1 cars (ME!) and then the second gen car (maybe called Volt and maybe not but it doesn’t matter) will be much less expensive. It is the way of technology, toss it out there let onstar patch and monitor the cars and gen two will be better and cheaper.

(Quote)
Dave B Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:57 am

Now GM starts the, “proud to be American…energy Independence now stuff….” ironically when gas is skyrocketing. And we are supposed to simply forgive GM?

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:57 am

@MuddyRoverRob 63

“Flat screen TV’s used to be $20k! I just bought mine new for $1200.

All new products start out expensive and the price comes down.
Jeez people, you really ought to know this.”

Then why didn’t you buy a LED TV for $880 more? It’s new, waaaaay thinner and uses half the power of an LCD therefore runs cooler so you can’t cook your hot Dogs over theTV.
All you Gen1 buyers will be lucky. It will not have V2G communications and the batt pack will so overkill it’s not funny, later versions will most likely not be so packed. I’m envious. I’ll have to wait till Gen III……lol.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

#61 CapJackSparrow said:

@statik 60

Hey statik, Autoblogg did a rendered speculation of the Pugeot model of the iMiev for you…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/29/rendered-speculation-peugeot-008-french-imiev/

It looks pretty cool. Doubt it will look like that but it’s something to tease you with.
======================
Thanks for the linkage.

/too bad I didn’t have any ‘Pugeot’ dealers near me…I have a few (well one) Mitsu though

(=

(Quote)
CorvetteGuy Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

Does anybody know if the “New GM” will be listed on the exchange?
Will it be available to all, or will the government keep all the shares in their back pocket till they become profitable again?

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

#60 statik

It would be a first if they did. They could–there are no hard and fast rules. But I doubt it. My money’s on Cisco or Monsanto. Or, if they want to be radical, they could add Google. (It’s one way to add a quick 400 points.)

(Quote)
CorvetteGuy Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

@ThombDbhomb
@CaptJackSparrow

I followed your link:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/29/general-motors-will-build-new-small-car-in-idled-us-factory/

Did you check out the size of those headlights?!
And the ones on the car are really huge too!

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

#62 charlie h said:

#57, statik, “What is Phil LaNeve doing anywhoo that makes Weber a PR guy? Maybe he is busy penning the next monthly installment of “why ***insert month here*** sales are really awesome despite what the numbers say”.

ROTFLOL.

I think you meant Mark La Neve, though. But it’s still really, really funny.

Do you ever listen to the monthly sales and production conference calls? I just love listening to those hucksters once a month. One of the regulars, I can’t recall which one, sounds like he’s a cheap lawyer for Mafia goons.
=======================

Crap…a obscure joke gone bad.

Yeah, I meant Mark (I must have merged his name with his ‘pro-GM’ media partner in crime Phil LeBeau, lol) …I love those conference calls myself. Whenever I need a good chuckle I just bring up old monthly sales press releases.

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Mark Bartosik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

Something I found interesting (would have been better on yesterday’s thread)

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/05/25/auto-plant-wars-sparked-decline-of-industry/

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Jim in PA Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

#64 Dave B – Are you supposed to forgive GM? Well, I dunno, would you demonize Toyota and the rest of Japanese industry for their role in the Japanese war machine of WWII? Do you hold Daimler Benz responsible for their support of the Nazi war machine? Do you demonize Toyota for joining ranks with Detroit and opposing CAFE standards several years ago? Probably not… because sooner or later a corporation is just a piece of paper, and how good or evil it is depends on the individuals working there TODAY and how THEY behave.

Many of the people working for and running GM today are not necessarily the villians of the past. Rick Wagoner, the love father of Hummer, is gone. GM and Firestone colluded to destroy the American streetcar system… decades before I was born. And on and on it goes. So am I willing to forgive GM? Yes, if they sincerely change. And I do think they are changing. I think it has finally dawned on the entire auto industry that they are not partners with the oil companies. Exxon will stab GM in the back to increase their profits, and GM should not be afraid to return the favor.

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k-dawg Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

69.

CorvetteGuy Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:08 pm .@ThombDbhomb
@CaptJackSparrow

I followed your link:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/29/general-motors-will-build-new-small-car-in-idled-us-factory/

Did you check out the size of those headlights?!
And the ones on the car are really huge too!
============

There was a car?

(Quote)
GLV Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

Fox News is reporting that the GM Bankruptcy filing will happen Monday…after a news conference by president Obama…no surprise…

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/general-motors-file-bankruptcy/

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

# 65 Cap’n Jack
In my case it’s a combination of having an electrical engineer for a wife (so she thinks the Volt is cool) and pretty decent timing as next fall I should be in just the right place to buy a new car… it’s been a while!

I bought the cheapest 120hz TV I could find (Tosh Regza 42″) the damn things cost more than that though, because a week later I bought the bluray and the HD cable box… The sound upgrade is coming…

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

#63 MuddyRoverRob said:

Flat screen TV’s used to be $20k! I just bought mine new for $1200.

All new products start out expensive and the price comes down.
Jeez people, you really ought to know this.

There will be buyers for the smaller production number gen 1 cars (ME!) and then the second gen car (maybe called Volt and maybe not but it doesn’t matter) will be much less expensive. It is the way of technology, toss it out there let onstar patch and monitor the cars and gen two will be better and cheaper.
=========================

Also of interest, 20 years ago the largest plasma factory was in New York made by IBM. Then, Fujitsu got in the business and started making saleable, full color units in the early 90s. Plasmico (or something like that) was the last big US maker, and they got bought out in the mid-late 90s by Panasonic.

Today, plasmas are built in Japan, Malaysia or Singapore. Sidenote: The market has really moved to LCDs in the last 5-6 years…but they aren’t made in the US either.

/check the back of your $1,200…and draw your own conclusions

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RB Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

#32 Rashiid Amul said
There is nothing wrong with the use of the word “masses”. and goes on to suggest general population as an alternative.

=====================================
thefreedictionary.com defines masses as:

masses The body of common people or people of low socioeconomic status:
—————————-

I agree that masses is a perfectly good word. It still seems to be, by the definition, the wrong word to describe those in the group that will purchase Volts. In CA my guess is that we are talking about movie stars, politicians, and technical people with money, much more than those of “low socioeconomic status.” To me “general population” is better but still not quite right.

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

#67 CorvetteGuy

GM can’t stay on the DOW post-bankruptcy. They will probably do an IPO with the new equity as soon as the new equity has anything approaching actual value. My sense is that the government and the UAW want to cash out ASAP.

But the new GM definately won’t be a DOW stock again for a long time, if ever. Certainly not as long as the government has any equity. And even afterwards…Dow stocks are supposed to be healthy established companies….

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

#69 CorvetteGuy

More than an LED is a waste

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

@RB 77

I prefer the “80% of the Bell curve distribution”.

Some of you need to quite skewing the curve!!!

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

#76 Statik
Right you are, although I’d prefer that the factory be here in Calgary! We non-oilpatch folks need some new blood!

Being Toshiba it is definately imported from Japan/somewhere. We as consumers are really between a rock and a hard place. Either we don’t buy things we want (because they are not made near us) or we bite the bullet and increase our footprint (god I hate THAT term). The old TV expired (RCA, but don’t know where it was manufactured) so I had to (OK wanted to) replace it.

I did drink a beer from a local microbrewery last night though so I feel pretty good about that!

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

# 77 RB,

Then I WIN!

“John Q Public” it is!

(Quote)
RB Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

#80 CJS says
@RB 77
I prefer the “80% of the Bell curve distribution”.
Some of you need to quite skewing the curve!!!
============================

I know i know, you guys keep having to average us up.
But we do appreciate it.

(Quote)
RB Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

#82 MuddyRoverRob says
# 77 RB,
Then I WIN!
“John Q Public” it is!
—————————————-

I like it!

It possibly should be “Jane Q Public”. In the present day, women are a mighty force in car-buying decisions, both their own cars and for family cars.

It’s not just superficial, either, for in many cases today “Jane” is the more technically sharp person in the family. For sure if female buyers like the Volt there will be a huge number sold. That may happen, as it seems to me that in general women dislike gas stations more than men, and are more appreciative of styling details. For sales of Volts to women to take off, GM will have to get the colors just right, and to do that they will have to pay attention. Maybe they will.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

Outsourcing….

Lots of examples. I always thought they could never outsource fast food, but I was wrong. Now (at certain stores) you talk to someone from outside the US when placing your drive thru order.

Outsourced was a good movie.

Anyone see that special they had on American Apparel opening a store in China. First all the government road blocks, then getting the Chinese culture to understand the concept of non-labeled clothes. It was a good story. An American made product, shipped and sold to Chinese…. what a rare gem.

I guess my company did sell about 1 million worth of equipment to China in 2007. However, that was only because they tried to copy it, but it didnt work.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

#68 LauraM said:

#60 statik

It would be a first if they did. They could–there are no hard and fast rules. But I doubt it. My money’s on Cisco or Monsanto. Or, if they want to be radical, they could add Google. (It’s one way to add a quick 400 points.)
=======================
I thought maybe you might wade in on that one, lol.

I really don’t want to see CSCO on there, although it probably should be…for the same reason as MSFT, its home just feels like the NASDAQ to me (same for Apple and Google). I was thinking something like AETNA or Amgen.

Sidenote: I’d like to see Citigroup shown the door at the same time, maybe a switcharoo with Wells Fargo

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

@k-dawg 85

Hey, I saw some crazy sh|t like that. It wasn’t quite outsourcing out of the US per sei, but it was fast food Drive Thru ordering. It showed that the folks doing the drive thru orders were actually professional order taker peeps. They wern’t even in the same building or state. All they did was take an order from the drive thru and the order came up on the screen at the Mcdonalds you were at.
lol….
So you can’t yell at anyone there because they weren’t the one who took your order.

(Quote)
Shawn Marshall Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

I don’t think GM will be able to compete with Toyota and Honda when they emerge as an 89% gov/labor owned entity. Think $40 B will get the Volt built in a competitive way? I fear not. I don’t think the Volt is gonna make it as real product; it will be undermined in the market by products more competitive in cost and features. GM never shoulda taken the people’s money. That allowed our overbearing and oppressive government to shove unlawful conditions down their throat. Hopefully they will sell the Voltec technology to a real capital corporation.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

#77 RB says,
thefreedictionary.com defines masses as:

masses The body of common people or people of low socioeconomic status:

Gosh darn it, RB. I never thought of masses meaning like that.
I always thought it just meant a large group of people. Not a large group of a certain type of people.

We learn something new every day.

(Quote)
Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

@ #79 ThomDbhomb,
>> More than an LED is a waste

Or a mouthful of them, at any rate.

——–
@ #82 MuddyRoverRob,
>>“John Q Public” it is!

Oh boy, is Jane Q. Public ever gonna be ticked.
——–
@ #84 RB, great minds think alike?

(Quote)
MarkinWI Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

Capt. @#52/87 et. al. – Some pat themselves on the back for their predictions, so I guess I’ll do it for my hopes that panned out this week. Build GM cars in U.S. instead of China? Check. Bondholders compromise because litigation is no sure thing, and not all bondholders are secured lenders? Check. Posters here acknowledge that off-shoring can happen to any job? Check. Now if the idled factory selected is located in say, Janesville, WI, I could be really happy.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GM_SMALL_CAR?SITE=WIMIL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

(Quote)
EVO Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

“the way of the future” thinking is just one more artificial barrier. Electric drive is the present. Get on now or get run over by it.

(Quote)
Lektriktadpole Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

#15 Rashiid Amul said:
”

I agree that the E-REV is the way to go for now.

Improvements will make it obsolete someday. But it really is perfect for today.”
___________________________________________________

I am not so sure that it will become obsolete. The general concept of e-flex is just too darn FLEXIBLE. Maybe we will get to rapid recharge high capacity batteries for dirt cheap and the “genset” will disappear, but it may be that other issues will induce us to keep a genset of sorts. Greencarcongress.com recently reported a study of a process to electrolyze CO2 directly out of the air to produce syngas. Which then can be converted to methanol. Methanol can be used as a fuel in direct methanol fuel cells. A potentially good way to store electricity from variable sources such as wind and solar. The “genset” of the future is yet to be determined and may be defined by economics outside of the car.

Remember, a BEV is nothing but the special case of an EREV with genset of size zero. With the huge number of variables involved in determining the optimum parameters for an EREV, the odds of optimization occurring at the extreme ends of the parameter set are quite low. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see EREVs still the predominant vehicle architecture 70 years from now.

(Quote)
MarkinWI Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

Some reasons to think my hopes for Janesville are something less than a complete fantasay:

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/biz/452875

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

#93 Lektriktadpole

Be assured that I was thinking long term. I don’t see EREV going away anytime soon either. But it will go away.

300 years ago, no one would have thought that horses would go away from a transportation perspective. EREV will go also. It is just a matter of time.
I have a tremendous amount of faith in science. History is filled with people saying “it will never happen”. I don’t buy into that at all.
Science can do anything given the time and resources.

(Quote)
detfan Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

Charlie H #9 said

“Puh-leeze. What will make electric cars relevant is their availability, in large quantities at prices people can afford.”

That’s exactly what GM, and other maufacturers are doing. You think the Volt is going to be a 1,000 per month vehicle for more than a year? Not likely, GM is working on putting this battery into several cars worldwide to quickly bring the cost of the car down. In addition, I haven’t seen a sticker price on the Volt yet, but if GM is true to their word to subsidize the Volt, our cost should get under $30,000. Don’t forget, also, that Toyota’s magnificent 10 mile plug in Prius is being rumored priced well over $30,000. Several car manufacturers are also working on plug-ins, so I don’t think it will be many years before over 1M electric vehicles will be sold annually worldwide, and not too many years after that, when over 1M are sold annually in the U.S.

(Quote)
KentT Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

One problem that seems insurmountable about the Voltec powertrain is cost. Like the Prius you have two powerplant systems. Toyota has the problem of a complex transmission added to the ICE/EV powertrain they invented. The Volt has the advantage of no/very simple transmission but Lyle has yet to give us anything about the cost of the very large generator that the ICE is going to turn to drive the car. Is this generator cheaper than a tranny? I would think yes but there is the cost of copper which has for years been climbing in cost.

The EV1 was justifiable because an EV is simple. Batteries, motor, controller, charger. That’s it. An ICE is fuel system, starter system, cooling system, exhaust system, transmission/drivetrain [system!]. The head assembly of an ICE engine has more parts than all the parts needed for an EV! Bring down the cost of the battery and an EV is CHEAP. A Prius/Volt has all the cost of an ICE vehicle PLUS all the cost of an EV.

How do you make money/an affordable car for the masses with that equation?

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

LOL! OK ok! I give in…

“Pat Q Public” then!

if you don’t get the “Pat” reference then you need to dig into the SNL archives…

jeez I go grab some lunch and people get all rational on me!
…”Masses” is starting to look good again ain’t it!

(Quote)
Guido Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

charlie h Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:47 am
#57, statik, “What is Phil LaNeve doing anywhoo that makes Weber a PR guy? Maybe he is busy penning the next monthly installment of “why ***insert month here*** sales are really awesome despite what the numbers say”.

ROTFLOL.

I think you meant Mark La Neve, though. But it’s still really, really funny.

Do you ever listen to the monthly sales and production conference calls? I just love listening to those hucksters once a month. One of the regulars, I can’t recall which one, sounds like he’s a cheap lawyer for Mafia goons.
—————
Ahhh, the plot thickens. Now this curmudgeon “Charlie H” admits to listening to GM monthly conference calls, and corrects people on the names of GM executives? Throw in his thrice-daily posts on this site ripping GM and the Volt in any way possible, and it is quite clear that this terd works for the Death Star herself, Toyota. My invite to you remains the same, Charlie H – come to Detroit sometime and let’s throw down, you traitorous scumbag.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

In 2000, three years after they started selling the Prius, Toyota sold about 5K cars in NA. If GM manufacturers and sells 10K Volts in the first year, that will probably be more EVs (not including NEVs) than have been produced by all manufacturers over the last 75 years. So no, 10K isn’t shabby as a starting point.
__________________________

First, the MISCONCEPTION BARRIERS of the past no longer exist. So rollout should be much, much faster now.

Second, a goal of 10K missing the goal by a massive quantity. In fact, that could be called doing a minimum. With 8 to 10 million new vehicles annually, an agressive approach is required to offset those guzzlers still being built & sold.

10K of 10M is only 1/10 of 1%. That’s TOO FEW, TOO SLOWLY… exactly the complaint the task-force made.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

97 KentT
I would think yes but there is the cost of copper which has for years been climbing in cost.
==============
Copper has tanked. No more robbing houses for the wire.

(Quote)
Streetlight Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

First off, nothing is more important to the country than saving GM – period. Secondly, Volt engineering looks very well managed. They certainly seem to be staying on top of battery and power train advances. Anyways … I am a maximum range advocate – whatever it takes – aim for 1000+ range. Even if that means a 15 g – 20g tank – fine. Now you got something to crow about. About fuel tanks. The diff between a 7 g & 10 g is very small. And a 14 g is still not all that big. I have a 31 g in my GMC Sierra. (A design engineer)

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

#
Brian Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:57 am

I agree, the Volt is not going to make any kind of realistic impact at the price point and volume. It’s more of a curiosity or niche car. Simple economics and what the average American can afford show that the Volt won’t make much of a difference unfortunately.

To really achieve energy independence we need to get efficient cars in the hands of the masses. We need 50+mpg hybrids under $20k or low cost BEVs for a large impact to occur. Those could sell in the millions per year.
______________________

Show us where you are getting these numbers!

1) Realistic impact
2)Niche car
3)Price Point
4)Volume
5)Simple Economics & what average American affords
6)Volt won’t make much difference
7)Energy independence
8)Efficient cars instead = 50 plus mpg (answered; but what quantifiable difference would 50 mpg + make)

Since Prius and Insight now exist at your price targets won’t they solve all the problems? Even though they’re 100% gasoline powered all the time they’ll solve all our problems right?

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

“Hand-built vehicles may capture the imagination of some, but we need millions of cars to truly address this global issue,” writes Weber.
________________________

Millions = YES

Thousands = NO

When = SOON

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

Anthony BC Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:50 am

“He explains that the E-REV design allows GM to limit battery size and thereby cost, making the technology affordable to more people.” Obviously Frank is commenting on VOLT 2, VOLT 3, etc.

The VOLT Gen 1 will be a great start @ 10K units, but If GM’s keeps up with Gen 2 2013 @ $30K, Gen 3 2015 @ $20K, etc. this will then finally make a difference & be affordable to the “masses”, the true ‘masses”.

GO EV!
_____________

Where are you getting these prices from. Prices aren’t even set for gen I?

GM has said target is 10,000 Volts 2010 and up to 50,000 in 2011.

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

#100
john1701a

First, the MISCONCEPTION BARRIERS of the past no longer exist. So rollout should be much, much faster now.
___________________
Isn’t that like saying the slow ramp up of the Prius doesn’t really exist because it was in the past. New technology takes time. Because I wanted a plasma TV in 1982 didn’t make the technology irrelevant in 2002.

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

#86 Statik

I could see Amgen. But not AETNA. Not with all the uncertainty about the US public health plan. Although there aren’t any insurance companies since booting AIG….

They’ll probably drop Citi at the same time. I agree that Wells is probably the best choice if they want to stick with a financial.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

New technology takes time.
___________________________

MISCONCEPTIONS have nothing to do with the technology itself.

Barriers like “electric motors are slow” are long gone now, but they were still alive & well during the time of Prius rollout.

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

It seems to me that keeping the production fairly low the first year to work out the ‘bugs’ and gain market visibility makes a lot of sense.

Although I want one, my driving one will ‘possibly’ win over a couple people. However get Steve Wozniak, or Tom Hanks or take your pick famous person with some coverage and many many more will take a hard look.

Once the orders start coming in solidly THEN the prices come down.

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

MuddyRoverRob @ 98 et al.

Hey wait a minute…

What about Joe Sixpack?

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

#105 Jeffhre said:

Anthony BC Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:50 am

“He explains that the E-REV design allows GM to limit battery size and thereby cost, making the technology affordable to more people.” Obviously Frank is commenting on VOLT 2, VOLT 3, etc.

The VOLT Gen 1 will be a great start @ 10K units, but If GM’s keeps up with Gen 2 2013 @ $30K, Gen 3 2015 @ $20K, etc. this will then finally make a difference & be affordable to the “masses”, the true ‘masses”.

GO EV!
_____________

Where are you getting these prices from. Prices aren’t even set for gen I?

GM has said target is 10,000 Volts 2010 and up to 50,000 in 2011.
=========================
I don’t like to wade in on the basic info…but every once in awhile I guess we should throw it out there.

Couple things:

1.) Gen 2 is 2015/2016…at the earliest.
2.) First “full year’s production” goal is set at 10,000…not anything to do with the year itself. They would be lucky to get out a handful to customers (who aren’t also starring in movies) in 2010.
3.) For subsequent years, production is pegged at 60,000 (which is the aprox. capacity of the one line they are switching over at the Hamm facility)

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

#107 LauraM said:

#86 Statik

I could see Amgen. But not AETNA. Not with all the uncertainty about the US public health plan. Although there aren’t any insurance companies since booting AIG….

They’ll probably drop Citi at the same time. I agree that Wells is probably the best choice if they want to stick with a financial.
========================
Have I mentioned how much I enjoy you being here on the forums recently?

Too funny, because I was specifically thinking about a quasi-replacement for AIG’s departure when I chose AETNA (I agree it is kind of a dark horse however). I think the boot for Citi at the same time makes a lot of sense (as does having WFC take their place)…but it is the DOW after all, sense is not one of their stronger suits, lol.

(Quote)
Randolf White Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

GM, a government run automotive company that just won’t die.
It’s so sad that the taxpayer’s never got to vote on this bailout of mammoth proportions. The GM bailout marks the day that capitalism died in the United States of America.

(Quote)
Jeff Berry Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

#70 statik

Crap…a obscure joke gone bad.

Yeah, I meant Mark (I must have merged his name with his ‘pro-GM’ media partner in crime Phil LeBeau, lol) …I love those conference calls myself. Whenever I need a good chuckle I just bring up old monthly sales press releases.
—————————————————————————-
It is not too obscure of a joke…I used to get the same monthly sales report in voicemail. A coworker and I would have a good chuckle at the way any sales numbers could be explained to seem like a great accomplishment.

It is like the cheering section at a T-ball game…every single play is awesome.

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

@MuddyRoverRob 98

““Pat Q Public” then! ”

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

OMG he said Pat……

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

# 110 David K (CT)

“Pat Q Six Pack”?

That could work…
The missus likes a good dark beer… god knows I do!

Six pack of Kaluha for the Cap’n

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Jackson Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

charlie h:

If you’re looking for a ride to Detroit for your smackdown with Guido, try John1701a. I hear he has a new Prius.

=====

David K (CT):

“Hey wait a minute…

What about Joe Sixpack?”

CaptJackSparrow, I cannot believe you didn’t think of this first.

=====

statik (to Laura M):

“Have I mentioned how much I enjoy you being here on the forums recently? “

statik and Laura M sittin’ in a tree …

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

@Jackson 117

“CaptJackSparrow, I cannot believe you didn’t think of this first.”

Ate too much at lunch…..
A little slow and falling asleeeppp………

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StevePA Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

#107 LauraM and #112 statik

For an insurer replacement for AIG, how about Travelers (TRV)? Market cap just under 24B, solid market performer ever since spinning off from Citi years ago. A successful, innovative competitor in the property and casualty insurance business http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=TRV

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Larry McFall Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

Frank Weber is correct, of course in his evaluation of the situation. There is nothing shabby about the smarts of these Germans. I am supprised that they haven’t already taken the technology that GM says they have in consideration to the Chevy Volt and put it in production. GM shouldn’t be talking about it being in the outyears of 2010/2011 but now. Hell they even talk about the Volt losing money before they ever get started.

They didn’t seem to mind losing millions in the past few years on equipment that nobody wanted. That should have been the time to tool up for the future. The Volt is good business and obviously Frank Weber knows that. The idea behind the design is great and much better that the hybrids now being built.

Once again, why in the hell isn’t GM taking production models of this vehicle around to different towns making a market for them. Isn’t daddy government going to let them do that? I guess we will be owning the industry soon. I can only imagine what a US Government Produced Voltmobile will be a looking like by the time that our politicians get their two cents worth in.

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Ed M Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

This truly has become a forum of empty chatter with the odd grumble for balance I guess. I used to learn from contributors in the early days but not much anymore.

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Dave K. Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

#113 “GM, a government run automotive company that just won’t die.”

The current administration in DC wants to save jobs. It turns out that GM is the poster boy for this movement. News is that GM stock will still trade on “pink paper” for a time as restructuring proceedings begin.

Transformers II will be out soon. Featuring GM products. Camaro’s are starting to arrive at dealerships.

A barrel of crude stands at $66.49 up 18 cents on the day and up $16 for the month.

oh, the drama

=D~

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CDAVIS Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

______________________________________________________
Frank Weber in Lyle’s above article says:
“…GM is better equipped than any start-ups to deliver large volume of electric cars globally…”

—–
I hope that Frank Weber’s enthusiasm, grit, and determination adequately counter balances GM’s propensity to allow innovative projects to get lost in the vast GM landscape of competing interests.

Tighter focused start-up organizations are often able to deliver larger results than broader focused better equipped organizations. England was once better equipped than little upstart America.

The Electric Car Revolution Is Here.

Ten years from now the vast majority of all new consumer cars sold will be EV/EREV. I’d like to see a bunch of those Electric Cars be Weber’s Voltecs.

Perhaps the glass half full view of the Voltec Program is to think of the Voltec Program as good wine having taken 40 years to mature:
http://gas2.org/2009/05/27/general-motors-first-hybrid-from-1969/
______________________________________________________

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Scottie Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

Big winner in all this: Ford. Just heard 2 different people who bought Fords specifically because they didn’t take bailout money. There is a huge backlash against GM building, and I think Ford is poised to grab all that business. Smart play.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

#121 Ed M…

There has been a fair amount of relevant chatter on the subject matter at hand today.

What were you hoping to learn about Franks opinion that has not been covered?

He thinks the The Volt and the the Voltec drivetrain are an important step towards a readily available electrically driven car.
I agree whole heartedly and am OK with the estimated production numbers. I do think (hope) that the sales numbers will rise and that GM will have to tool more prodution lines!

Wouldn’t that be a good problem to have?

Have a nice weekend my friend! Please don’t dismiss lighthearted Friday banter as not caring.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

Hey, I just thought of something. If one were to buy GM stocks, isn’t that really bying stock in US Gvt?

Hmmmm……

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

I think freeway speed EV are going to be out of reach for the “Pat Q Public”. Volt expected at $40,000.00 and the new Miles BEV is expected to be $45,000…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/27/new-highway-speed-miles-electric-sedan-to-be-unveiled-next-week/

Sheesh…..

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GXT Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

@30 Rashiid Amul wrote:

Ah, so true my friend. However, it is perfect for 80% of us, and my wife is included in that 80%.
———————————————————————————–

Ack, this is worse than Weber! At least he gets paid to be inaccurate.

The Volt may accommodate the usual commute for 78% of the US population, but it is “perfect” for virtually none of it!

For example, if your commute is 10 miles per day the Volt would save a ~50 gallons/year over a 50MPG hybrid. How is that “perfect”?

Or what about all the people that live in an area where they need AC, or worse yet, heat?

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

#127 Cap’n Jack

I think you are likely right for at least the early the gen 1 models.
However I also think that a gen 1.5 or 2.0 model will be competitive with the Accords and Camry’s of the world.

I also think that assuming the Volt is a hit that they will spin off other models, the Spark and an electra as well as a colorado sized pickup and a people mover (minivan) make sense to me.

It’s been fun today! have a great weekend all… Mr Alexander Keith is a-callin! (the amber of course!)

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MarkH Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

Is leasing a Volt completely out of the question? I know that the lease only strategy with a previous EV was probably a mistake. As an option though, it might get Volts on the road sooner by taking the sticker shock and “new tech” anxiety away from potential customers.

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charlie h Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:00 pm

#96, detfan, “You think the Volt is going to be a 1,000 per month vehicle for more than a year? Not likely, GM is working on putting this battery into several cars worldwide to quickly bring the cost of the car down.”

That’s little more than fantasy and rumor. GM’s own plan is for 60K Volts in year 2. If you’re going to visit GM-Volt.com, you should spend a little time reading the actual articles.

#96, detfan, “In addition, I haven’t seen a sticker price on the Volt yet, but if GM is true to their word to subsidize the Volt, our cost should get under $30,000.”

In spite of your persistent fantasy in this regard, GM recently reaffirmed it would be just about $40K. You’ve suggested prices as low as $22K and that’s breathtakingly funny. From now on, though, do try to keep up with the news.

#96, detfan, “Don’t forget, also, that Toyota’s magnificent 10 mile plug in Prius is being rumored priced well over $30,000.”

Nothing but rumor on that. Toyota’s car will also qualify for a rebate. So a $30K PHEV Prius could end up costing the end user $27K or less. Toyota’s history suggests that Toyota won’t release a car that’s too far from the median price of a new car, $22K or so. I figure a $4K uplift over the base Prius (after all, they substitute the enhanced battery pack for an existing $2K battery pack; it’s not all additional expense).

#99, Guido, “Now this curmudgeon “Charlie H” admits to listening to GM monthly conference calls, and corrects people on the names of GM executives?”

Yes. An intelligent and thoughtful person would realize that listening to GM’s conference calls is one of the reasons why I’m fairly well informed about GM.

#99, Guido, “Throw in his thrice-daily posts on this site ripping GM and the Volt in any way possible, and it is quite clear that this terd works for the Death Star herself, Toyota.”

That would be the highly successful Death Star, Toyota, that’s kicking GM’s butt and selilng their hybrids profitably while GM struggles to sell their whybrids at all. And, no, I don’t. I work for a very American company with global operations. We struggle sometimes but, so far, we do succeed without begging alms from the Feds.

#99, Guido, “My invite to you remains the same, Charlie H – come to Detroit sometime and let’s throw down, you traitorous scumbag.”

It’s that sort of attitude that is helps remind people that Detroit really isn’t worth saving.

#117, Jackson, “If you’re looking for a ride to Detroit for your smackdown with Guido, try John1701a. I hear he has a new Prius.”

Good thinking. After all, if one is going somewhere, it’s good to have a reliable ride. And, with gas at $2.60 hereabouts and higher elsewhere, a thrifty, reliable ride is even better.

Perhaps everyone in Detroit is grumpy because so many of them drive Detroit’s cars?

Guido? Do drive a Detroit car? Perhaps you should switch to a Toyota or Honda. You might develop a better outlook on life.

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Dan Pe;tit Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

Mr. Weber is correct that a few hand-built EV’s won’t directly do anything for the environment, and, as well, the intense specificity and production attention-to-detail is what will cause the needed changes for the environment,
But Mr. Weber could be a little charitable toward the people who have laid the very groundwork down through the last 8 years where a few highly qualified and degree-holding Electrical Engineers have been relentlessly informing the public regarding why EV technology is entirely different than internal combustion.
Mr. Weber could be a little more charitable toward the grass roots electric vehicle engineers (with EE degrees) who have provided the basis for my own personal EV knowledge. This has helped me to share with others on this site. Specifically, this in addition to the very reality of 38 years of relentless independent GM vehicular field service experience, brought to the cause of the Voltec vehicle.
While all engineers of all disciplines are incredibly hard working every intellectual minute, there should not be, regarding Electrical Engineers for hand built EV’s, a generalized “stepping upon them”. Cold specificity is not the same as intelligence. Intelligence has a strongly charitable character to it which is indispensable. Intelligence without charity to always help others to understand can be dictatorial. Intelligence brings ANYONE from where they are at conceptually on any topic, toward a better understanding that will have them functioning more successfully. Little else matters regarding intelligence.
For hand-built EV engineers who have formal degrees in engineering or are about to finish up for their degrees,
their initial contributions to change public awareness that electrification of autos is feasible, must be fairly recognized and credit maintained. For THEY were the initial pioneers regarding NON “hybrid-2 block range” EV’s, who were highly instrumental for the educating of the public. One of them I know here in Austin STILL answers personally over 1,000 (one thousand) emails per DAY, regarding anyone’s questions about electric vehicles.
That’s my definition of technical intelligence AND intellectual charity.
While I respect that the greater general public does not yet know the incredible technical differences between an EREV Volt and a hand built, I would never generalize some experimenter in a garage who is building something possibly dangerous, in the same category with degree-holding electrical engineers of hand built EV’s.
These are the people who were the ones who provided many others of high influence the deeper understandings they needed regarding the wisdom of electrification of the auto. Bringing about this great changeover to green electric motoring, as limited and as crude as some of these hand built EV’s might have first been, they are to be respected and honored for their initial work in this field. How does anyone believe that the President may have first become aware of the wisdom of electric drive? I believe that somehow in the last 8 or so years of dedication from all the various Electrical Engineers of all related electrical energy disciplines, a synergistic-unison via the internet, had played a critical role here. And, they must be differentiated and given SOME credit for their environmental dedication which has helped GM as well as the rest of us understand electric motoring, and that we must have Voltec vehicles. Other OEM’s ought to be very worried if they are not at least on track to emulate GM.
Dan Petit Austin TX

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statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

#119 StevePA said:

#107 LauraM and #112 statik

For an insurer replacement for AIG, how about Travelers (TRV)? Market cap just under 24B, solid market performer ever since spinning off from Citi years ago. A successful, innovative competitor in the property and casualty insurance business http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=TRV
====================

Also, a nice pick…would fit in nicely as a sub for Citi, I like that.

Only other place I would like to see more representation (other than healthcare) is probably energy…I think it is under-represented by a long shot, especially going forward (although pretty hard to get proportional representation with only 30 companies).

Something like a Schlumberger or ConocoPhillips would be a decent add as well (imo)

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:17 pm

#121 Ed M said:

This truly has become a forum of empty chatter with the odd grumble for balance I guess. I used to learn from contributors in the early days but not much anymore.
=======================

I still think this is the best ‘open’ forum for reasonable, educated, mature chat on the net (and getting better as more people get to know us here). I can’t think of any other place where you can interact with people of this calibre.

Side note: It is true we get side tracked from time to time as the threads get old…or as they gradually drift from the intended subject…but it is always informative (and quite often I confess to enjoying a slight diversion)

It is pretty hard to stay 100% ‘Volt’ focused/fresh for the 45 months from introduction to production…there is only so many things you can talk about (although Lyle does a whale of a job keeping this place hopping with almost-daily threads)…we do usually keep it inside of the ‘what is happening with GM, or in GM’s world’
——–
#132 Dan:

Just curious, how long would you say it takes you construct your posts?
…and why no spacing?
(=

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:39 pm

WSJ: Keeping the Chevy Volt alive doesn’t make sense for Government Motors

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Dan Petit Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

My posts are written at a slow typing speed. The Volt is so important to me, that there must be, I’d guess, about 10 or so fairly well-developed topic areas that I keep building separately in my mind from time to time all throughout the day as I teach advanced auto techs.
I think: “this technical situation in this other brand would help the Volt site.”
or “that political situation is not sufficiently-understood for the important job at hand to convert the planet over to green electric motoring”. (Or we’re toast).
and, “what ideas can I contribute today that would help solve a problem or help people to understand why we have just got to do our best to help GM do this.”
I ought to space more, but you would have to scroll too much.
Sometimes, when my posts don’t make it through, I’m glad, because I was a little too overworked that day teaching, and thankfully, someone helps me erase it. (THANKS).
The other part is that I am my own boss. If I worked for someone else, I would likely have been “let go” for upsetting someone’s apple cart. (But someone has to do that, although I try with kindness).
As always, I don’t ever know if anyone I know here in Austin follows anything I say, but the Volt coming through for us is what matters to me most.
Dan.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

From the last post or three…I said that GM was going to come out with a new and improved ‘dealer be gone list’ when they go GSB, and they probably wouldn’t come out with a new ‘dealer chop’ list until late June.

/dead wrong…about the when

Apparently, 450 odd additional dealers get notice of the axe monday, according to automotive news. Although everyone’s favorite ’sunneyside’ up PR man, MARK LaNeve, says, ‘nuh-huh, gonna be less than half that amount’

http://www.autonews.com/article/20090529/ANA02/905299971/1018

Something tells me there will even more cuts than these before they are done…might take them awhile to figure out who else they want gone if they don’t have to honor the agreements, and they probably come later in the month.

Rough tally: 1,100 already, 200-450 on monday…and 500 or so on the discontinued brands (who probably get the shaft early now too) = 1,800-2,000 + ?

(Quote)
Van Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 7:40 pm

Off Topic

A nice comparison of the Ford Fusion and the 2010 Prius, with the Ford looking pretty good.

http://www.hybridcars.com/gas-mileage/mileage-loop-ford-fusion-hybrid-25832.html

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john1701a Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

The idea behind the design is great and much better that the hybrids now being built.
___________________________

The reality behind the design is making it competitive.

Disregard for price makes for a terrible business case, something unwise on the verge of bankruptcy.

45.3 miles of driving for me today in the 2010 Prius. The resulting average was 61.3 MPG. That technology is available already. It is priced for high-volume sales.

Battery cost drops later will benefit hybrids like Prius too. GM is investing in Two-Mode for midsize vehicles too. Don’t act as if that isn’t happening. Volt technology will not be alone. Evalutation of “great” and “better” doesn’t mean the same thing for everyone.

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Ed M Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:26 pm

MuddyRoverRob and static

I didn’t mean to upset anyone, you’re both quite right. I forgot my prozac today. And Lyle has done a masterful job, putting this forum together.

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JEC Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:18 pm

90 MarkinWI

I’m with you on that. Janesville is in desperate need of decent paying jobs. I live not far from Janesville and almost took an engineering job for a company that supplies automotive equipment (kind of glad now, that I did not).

Anyway, it would be a big boost to a town, down on its luck.

Take care.

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kubel Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:42 pm

Bring your cost before rebates to around $30,000. How is this car going to make a significant difference if no one except the rich can afford it? There’s absolutely no reason this car should cost $40,000… I just hope gas prices are high enough to save this awesome car from certain doom.

$30,000 or I can’t afford it.

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guido Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:45 pm

Charlie H : I drive a 2009 Dodge Charger. My wife drives a 2009 Cadillac CTS. I’d still love to kick your wimp arse, you toyota shill.

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koz Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 11:43 pm

john1701a #139

Your comment, made some 800 or so times, could be post dated to 1996 with Prizm sub’d for Prius along with Prius sub’d for Volt and nobody would be able to tell the difference.

While the Prius has been part of a positive movement in the automotive industry and could continue to be for some time if Toyota continues to improve it, your incesant droning about how a current generation is sooo much more relevent because a lot of them have been sold in the past 12 years is far beyond annoying. Sure it would be great if GM had something similar to sell now, but the water flowed under that bridge a long time ago. To shoot now at what the Prius is today would likely be shooting behind the competition in 2012. GM is doing the right thing by aiming ahead and they just need to execute with conviction. GM is finaling trying to innovate in a big way and although the effort isn’t 100% perfect, it is good enough to deserve support just as the first generation Prius got my support last decade. It’s fine to critcize shortcomings you perceive, but since you have not posted any balancing comments the endless negativity is self defeating as it exposes a biased mind.

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Matthew_B Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 12:29 am

“Not only does GM have the assets to develop millions of electric cars but has the experience and expertise to make them “relevant.”

Assets?

Come on, they will be bankrupt on Monday! How could he say that with a straight face?

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jeffhre Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 12:45 am

#111
statik

1.) Gen 2 is 2015/2016…at the earliest.
2.) First “full year’s production” goal is set at 10,000…not anything to do with the year itself. They would be lucky to get out a handful to customers (who aren’t also starring in movies) in 2010.
3.) For subsequent years, production is pegged at 60,000 (which is the aprox. capacity of the one line they are switching over at the Hamm facility)
______________________________
Final answer? Because I’ll hold you to it, if it is!

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DonC Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 12:48 am

#130 MarkH asks “Is leasing a Volt completely out of the question?”

Not at all Mark. To start with, if you can buy a car you should be able to lease it. Additionally, there has been some suggestion from GM that they may offer a lease, perhaps even to the exclusion of a sale. (You have to think that would be a really bad idea after the EV1 fiasco). This would presumably be because of concerns about the life of the battery.

Given that the first couple of generations may be fairly quick (note that I disagree with statik here — no need to give him heart attacks two days in a row), and that as in electronics the advances may be dramatic at first, a lease might make sense if you always want the latest model, fastest 0-60 times, battery to home connection, and so forth.

My thinking on how fast Gen II and Gen II could be rolled out is based on the idea that the changes would be to the drivetrain and battery packs, not to other systems in the car. They’d occur more rapidly than what you see on ICE cars because GM would be moving up a much steeper learning curve than it would with a more established and well understood platform and, consequently, it would have more improvements in a much shorter than average time frame. (For example, this happened in the case of the EV1 with a new generation of batterypacks in two years.)

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jeffhre Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 1:08 am

CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

Hey, I just thought of something. If one were to buy GM stocks, isn’t that really bying stock in US Gvt?

Hmmmm……
______________________

It’s like buying wallpaper the night before the big spring home and remodeling sales at Lowes and Home Depot.

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Anthony BC Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 4:12 am

#105 – jeffhre

Answer: Bob Lutz…if he says it, it’s gold!

GO EV!

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Anthony BC Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 4:21 am

Reposting with corrections…

The VOLT Gen 1 will be a great start @ $40,000 dollars for the first 10K units, but “IF” GM’s keeps up with Gen 2 for 2013 @ $30,000 dollars, Gen 3 for 2015 @ $20,000 dollars, etc. this will then finally make a difference & be affordable to the “masses”, the true ‘masses”.

It took 4 years for Gen 1, Gen 2 is not 4 years away!

GO EV!

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yoda Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 4:33 am

Right. Gen 3 at $20K in 2015 would be pretty good if competitors would not be offering similar one for $15K.

150.

Anthony BC Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 4:21 am

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carcus1 Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 6:17 am

“Frank Weber Says . . . .ya da ya da … ”

_______

I’ve always been more of a “show don’t tell” kind of guy.

Show Me The Data, Mr. Weber.

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koz Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 6:57 am

It would be fantastic if GEN III were $20 in 2015 but that ain’t gonna happen unless the model is based on a $12Kish Aveolike auto. The Volt might be able to be brought down to around $20Kish without the battery. With a more powerful 30 miles AER and higher specific energy battery, maybe we’re looking at high $20s once the cost plus profit is added for the battery. That’s OK though, gas will probably be $5+ and very spikey unless there is a drastic change in course of how the world uses energy. Oh…A similar 10 miles AER PHEV is $23-$25K and 120 mile BEV is @$25K

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Dave B Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 7:02 am

Jim @ 72 says, “Are you supposed to forgive GM? Well, I dunno, would you demonize Toyota and the rest of Japanese industry for their role in the Japanese war machine of WWII?”
———

Point taken. I suppose I am more than happy to look at new competitors in the field like Ford, Tesla and others, who have not gotten investors slammed for monetary support. Moreover, there’s more here than just simple dollars. There’s a fundamental problem with the federal government crossing the line in what is permitted in the Constitution. History will judge–but I know enough about federalism to know that the feds have taken a drastic turn to the left.

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JEC Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 7:23 am

Found a few interesting articles that may interest others:

Oh if only they would have started the “Volt” development 40 years ago:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/gm-hybrid-car-ad-1969-stirling-engine.php

GM gets defensive:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/gm-frank-weber-defends-chevy-volt-electric-cars.php

For you iMiev lovers (me too!):
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/mitsubishi-i-miev-electric-car-second-battery-factory-kyoto.php

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Larry McFall Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 7:47 am

Now that we all agree that the Volt is revelant, get production started. I assume that the Volt Integration is the start of production??? Lyle, can you or somebody shed some light on what an “Integration Vehicle” is?

I want to see a volt and get to understand it better. I know that it is probably a simple concept much like the train engine with traction motor for final drive, but I just need to see it, feel it, ride in it, and get to understand it.

I hope that the Integration Vehicles will be used to introduce it to the common people like myself. Hell, if I’m going to buy one, I can’t afford to be taking long trips to see one. Gas cost a lot of money!!!!

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kent beuchert Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 7:52 am

I’d say that Weber simply doesn’t realize just how many Volts it’s gonna take to have any appreciable impact on oil dependencies.
GM’s talking tens of thousands, but until there are MANY tens of millions of non-gas burning vehicles out there, the oil producers have the upper hand. At $40K (those Federal subsidies run out real fast) the Volt cannot be sold to very many millions of families. The appearance of new battery technology is just around the corner – either the surefire success of MIT’s new advance via A123 Systems, or EESTor succeeding : their CEO said this yesterday – commecial product delivery by end of 09. Those billions that Obama and his merry men are spreading for his supporters will be money down the tube. EEStor success means the end of batteries, and A123 System success makes batteries finally practical, at least in terms of capabilities. I predict that at least one of these new technologies will succeed. When it does, the Volt will be transformed into a battery-only vehicle.

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Van Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 8:47 am

I think the range extender is necessary until fast (less than 1/2 hour) recharge infrastructure is established.

How many AER over 20 miles vehicles will it take to make a dent in our dependence on foreign oil? Lets say we import 2/3 of our oil. And lets say there are 240 million vehicles, so it would appear it would take about 160 million vehicles. But it is possible that many of these vehicles are parked most of the time, and the number of actual fuel burners is less. However it is unlikely that the number of actual fuel burners is less than 200 million, so we are still looking at the need to replace 140 million or so cars. At 10 million per year, 14 years.

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Dan Petit Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 9:10 am

As the time of the Volt release gets closer and closer, expect louder and louder proclamations that “it won’t do enough good for the energy cost increase” from the petro-dictatorial interests.
Scream fear and smear against governmental initiatives which will help the Voltec all they wish, it is all coming. People are highly motivated to keep their current ICE transportation going as best they can afford in anticipation of Voltec.
As far as the made-up excuses that petroleum is key to national defense, well, the Volt is key to national defense, jobs, environmental responsibility of each and every one of us, and a host of other absolutely responsible reasons.

“Cost of energy increase” is a completely dysfunctional and totally worthless argument. (Less than a hundred “conservatives”[sic] are denying the ease and need for electricity “conservation”, and, I reject any ever-present denial completely.)
If ever
there was only one thing,
and one thing alone
which we morally should (and must) pay a little more for
and use a lot less of, it is:
Energy, which,
****************
SHOULD
****************
cost more if it is sustainably-derived in a non-carbon manner.
Many people with vast square footages in all their mansions want cheap coal electricity. They are the very ones who can afford the 10 to 15 percent more for it if it did get that high, since that is the square footage they chose to buy in the first place.
I have a modest 1483 square foot house. I have gotten my electricity usage down to 386 kilowatts a month!! The hottest month on record was last July. I perfected a way to be very cool in my energy-efficient/weatherized house for only that many kilowatts for that month here in Texas!! (Using a 2 hour timer on the hvac, hvac tech installed, and setting it to better “accumulate the cool”, then automatically shutting it off for the evening, instead of cycling an inefficiently narrow temp band).
These FEW people in opposition, are people to be identified as petroleum and coal interests, and no-one else at all !! NO ONE ELSE AT ALL!!
They know this is a threat to them, that Voltec is ascendant. They likely will try to attempt to see how they can escalate their veiled, if not direct threats to everyone else, (not just directly to me, twice now, in the last 2 years). (The second being from natural gas interests, which, does not make sense to me since it is half the carbon of coal, and is needed for stand-by electrical generation. Also, it seems to me, it is at least minimally-energy-appropriate/required, since it can be used most extremely-frugally, therefore natural gas is ok for that reason).
But, again and again, the same tired old theme of increased energy cost, however, will become increasingly more and more false.
Do you realize that as more and more Wind Energy comes online, that the “fuel” portion of your electric bill could actually begin to disappear in the next few decades?
It is conceivable that the coal electric generation facilities in 20 years may actually have to pay money into the system to have the privilege of being able to maintain being physically connected.
(As I understand it, it makes a very loud “bang” if the disconnect swing-arms of the system are commanded to disconnect any inappropriately-timed electricity generation input that the system can not handle, or has not otherwise properly-responded to the extremely tight one-sixtieth of a second specificities of the grid).
This is why the economics of coal are rapidly going down the tubes.
This is why no-one, for the long term, ought to consider building new coal fired power plants. Why?
If I can conserve electricity to the extent that I can, then so, can anyone else who merely takes the very easy path to also do so.
Everything we can save can go toward the affordability of us getting that Volt. (Just don’t neglect your preventive maintenance on your current auto, so as to prevent a huge consequential loss later).
Dan Petit Austin TX

(Quote)
JEC Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 9:44 am

DanP
“(As I understand it, it makes a very loud “bang” if the disconnect swing-arms of the system are commanded to disconnect any inappropriately-timed electricity generation input that the system can not handle, or has not otherwise properly-responded to the extremely tight one-sixtieth of a second specificities of the grid).”
=====================================================
Huh? You lost me. One-sixieth of a second? Are you talking about zero-crossover condition? Where you attempt to disconnect from an inductive source (system wiring), and you create a giant electrical arc? I do not think you will find any mechanical switch that would be able to achieve this. If you could open the switch at EXACTLY the zero crossing of the current, then you would be able to interrupt the current with no arc (impossible with mechanical relay).

Take a look here at a demo of a BIG switch that attempts to remove power. Since you are connected to a large inductive load (L), and you attempt to disconnect the Current (I) instantly, then theoretically, your voltage goes to infinity. This causes the large arc, since V = L(di/dt), where di/dt is the change in current over time. If dt = small, then V = BIG, and therefore the switch attempts to maintain current (I) and makes the large arc you can see in the video (I have posted this several times, as my favorite demo of L(di/dt) in action!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQQMK1Rvq0A&feature=related

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 10:15 am

#146 jeffhre
yupe

#147 DonC
…so noted

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 30th, 2009 at 10:30 am

#155 JEC said:

For you iMiev lovers (me too!):
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/mitsubishi-i-miev-electric-car-second-battery-factory-kyoto.php
=============================

Thats what I love about the iMiev project, not only do they hit all their deadlines, not only do they have over 1,000 ‘pre-production/test’ vehicles on the road now, and not only are they going into full, real production in 6 weeks…but they are also constantly bringing in more capacity, and constantly increasing volumes as the time to make good decreases….a trend that is woefully lacking anywhere else in this segment.

There is just something about the EV business that screams ‘BS,’ I don’t know if it is because of so many failed projects, or just so many darn press releases and concept cars compared to exactly zero mass produced EVs on the road at the moment.

It is no secret that I love the iMiev project, and it is my first choice…but even if you don’t like it at all, and would never buy one, they are going to be the ones that prove to the world that, ‘yes, EVs are real, you can buy one at your local dealer, you can have warranty and service without hassle, just like a regular car…and they can have 4 seats.

/that can’t be a bad thing

(Quote)
Ken Grubb Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 11:45 am

The Volt is quite brilliant in terms of it’s market positioning.

Hybrids will continue to sell well, but people are going to start demanding more.

Plugins are the next evolutionary step with hybrids given that the price to charge up is so much cheaper than burning gas–even with today’s temporarily cheap gas.

EVs are the future. No doubt at all in my mind. EVs are 75% efficient while ICEs are 20% efficient. Maintenance costs are going to be significantly reduced with EVs, and I suspect interiors will wear out much faster than motors, controllers or even batteries.

However, rangephobia will remain until a recharging network can evolve, and it’s going to take time to build it–but far less time than for the hype of hydrogen to evolve into something viable.

Enter the series hybrid, or Volt. It pushes us closer to EVs than anything else out there. As the batteries improve, 60, 80, 100 mile AER will become possible with the Voltec powertrain. If ultracaps are added or used, then recharge times may drop to minutes. The technical challenges to evolve a vehicle from series hybrid to EV are probably the smallest of any other such evolution.

(Quote)
Sal Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 8:16 pm

GM needs to hit a homerun with large volumes of affordable Volt. Start the massive manufacturing of the bodies now, and have a menu of battery options that can be chosen by the consumer and their affordability means. Have a “starter” version with maybe cheaper lead acid type batteries, just to drastically reduce the cost. The the owner can upgrade later as battery technologies get better and cheaper. I would buy one, even if it only went 5 miles on battery, as long as the range extender engine could get me 50 mpg. Start it at 20K and kill off the Prius and Insight.

(Quote)
CS Guy Says:
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:08 am

Now that GM and Chrysler know that going along with the oil companies wish to have all vehicles get crappy gas mileage brings them nothing but bankruptcy…

Here’s a link about the 100MPG Hummer, was to be unveiled in detroit in April…

“The prototype we’ll see in Detroit at the Society of Automotive Engineers World Congress on Monday features a series-hybrid drive train similar to the Voltec system in the Chevrolet Volt. Like the Volt, the H3 will be driven solely by electricity. The engine — the 260-horsepower 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder used in the Pontiac Solstice — will drive a 100-kilowatt generator to recharge the three lithium-ion battery packs. Fisker Automotive is using the same engine in its Karma range-extended EV.”
Link to wired story:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/04/behold-americas/

also their video: http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/hummer-fuel-economy-explained

This just shows it is doable to drive a badazz rig and get excellent fuel economy. I bet this thing will cost a mint but as a first step (or for those with buckets of money now) it is a reminder of what America can do when we put our mind to it!

We’re rooting for you GM and Chrysler. We know you can build great cars when you want to. Now is the time for you to show America that you are our partner in getting off oil. The 100MPG Hummer just shows that cars don’t have to be cramped or crummy to get great mileage.

NPNS::Electric Cars + Nuclear Power + Solar + Wind + Geothermal = American Energy Independence

(Quote)
Alfed Simmons Says:
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:52 am

Once the electric vehicle becomes readily available it will quickly overtake all other vehicles in it’s class.

Consider this scenario: a customer walks into a dealership, on the right you have a quiet, clean, eco-friendly car that never needs gas and hardly ever needs repair (few moving parts, no heat, oil, exhaust, fuel delivery etc) and on the left you have a backwards, expensive, destructive, soon-to-be-obsolete vehicle that’s hyper expensive to fuel and will break down. What kind of fool would opt for the latter?

Despite the incredibly successful efforts by Big Oil to sabotage this it will come to pass, and when it does oil cars are going the way of the cotton gin.

Now how about some fast and quiet electric boats?

(Quote)
charlie h Says:
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:48 am

“Consider this scenario: a customer walks into a dealership, on the right you have a quiet, clean, eco-friendly car that never needs gas and hardly ever needs repair (few moving parts, no heat, oil, exhaust, fuel delivery etc) and on the left you have a backwards, expensive, destructive, soon-to-be-obsolete vehicle that’s hyper expensive to fuel and will break down. What kind of fool would opt for the latter?”

You didn’t mention price. Are they equal in price? If not, what kind of fool would spend an extra $K where incremental value returned is $J, (J, K are positive real numbers with J << K).

(Quote)
edward richardson Says:
September 25th, 2009 at 5:27 pm

how come over two years ago when i contacted gm over my design of producing the car i developed using an electric engine with a small motor to generate a system to re charge that produced over 250mpg your resurch and development team said it was not a good idea and less than one year after that look what you have stolen from me good going thats the american way thanks gm and you wonder why your sales are down alleast with imports you know where your money is going all i want to know why you would not buy the design off of me 2 years ago i am a simple man with 3 kids and have worked on cars all my life it is my passion and i had a great idea and still have paper work and freinds that have heard my idea that supposably you or you development team tought up ha! after they talked to me and i explained in detail i guess it was a good idea after all thanks for shafting people that call you with a great idea and you STEAL IT FROM THEM any one that would like to hear how gm came up with there brain storm of the 250 mpg volt call me edward richardson at 301 343 9789 thanks to all and have a great day hope everyone reads this letter and see how wrong general motors treats there comsumers i have owned gm products from the time i got my license and restored a couple to i am so dissapointed at how crooked they are it was not your IDEA IT WAS MINE . thanks edward richardson

(Quote)

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