Grab our RSS Feed

AND

Chevy Volt Mule in Generator Mode Already ‘Prius Quiet’

May 27th, 2009 | Posted in: Engineering, Generator, Performance, Test drive

General Motors has allowed the Cruze-bodied Chevy Volt mules to be test driven by more than a dozen journalists and various others including myself.

They have strictly restricted those driving experiences to the vehicle’s charge depleting mode. Outsiders thus only have the experience of driving the car in pure electric mode without the gas generator running.

And lets face it, that is the main idea. We after all want to drive it only in that mode to limit use of gasoline. The range extender is there for less than 20% of the public’s driving needs and many people will never use it at all except perhaps in cases of emergency.

However, GM’s insistence on not allowing observation of the generator mode has raised the usual suspicions of the blogosphere.

EV enthusiast Chelsea Sexton, who appeared in the film Who Killed the Electric Car, spent a day recently test driving the Volt in EV mode, and highly praised it. However, because she was on the track all day doing interviews for a new film, she actually accidentally witnessed test Volts passing by while in generator mode.

She writes “in range extended mode- the thing is already Prius quiet.”

“And because the generator operates within certain distinct ‘power bands’ depending on the driver’s right foot,” she writes. “Any detectable sound should directly correlate with attendant ambient and road noise.”

She pressed Volt exec Frank Weber as to why GM wont let anyone outside experience driving the generator mode, and he replied sheepishly “well, when the engine comes on, you can hear it.”

So it is the fear of hearing the engine, not its feeling or performance that GM PR wants to avoid.

However, the reality is the Cruze-mules are not Volt. They may have 80% of the final car’s parts but the lack the refinement, component location, and engine noise shielding the final Volts will have. As such they are likely to be considerably noisier.

GM wants the series hybrid mode to feel as butter smooth and maximally silent as possible.

Since the true Volts are currently being built, it wont be long before myself and the automotive journalism universe get to experience them, likely in the fall, and I sure believe it will be quite quite and quite awesome.

Source (EVChels)

Posted by: Lyle

164 Responses to “Chevy Volt Mule in Generator Mode Already ‘Prius Quiet’”

Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

Quite, quite. Quite, quite, quiet even!

First!*

* = don’t you hate when people say this?

(Quote)
Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:51 pm

Frank is obviously a perfectionist. As I can sometimes be one of them myself (albeit a flawed perfectionist), I can tell you, it’s a curse most of the time!

I want to start a Frank Weber fan club. Frahnk*, you’re the man! Who’s with me??!?

* = ’cause that’s how it’s pronounced.**
** = Yeah, I got an asterisk thing goin’ tonight. So sue me

(Quote)
ClarksonCote Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:55 pm

Third! Sw33t post Lyle.

(Quote)
Jason Sander Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:57 pm

Fourth!

Yes Mike, I hate it when people say that

It’s good to get some actual Volt news again. Looking forward to hearing more after the proper prototypes are built and tested!

Frank, and the other members of the Volt team, are like artists. They hate for other people to see, and judge, their work before they deem it finished. They are indeed perfectionists, and want their creation to be seen as the work of art that it is. Are they hiding problems? Maybe… but I am leaning towards giving them the benefit of the doubt, and letting them test the proper cars before passing judgement. After all.. we have plenty of time left.

(Quote)
blakem Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:00 pm

Funny, I didn’t really think that the Prius was that quiet. Noisy or not, I think GM might be better off just showing what they have. It seems that we all start to question their engineering as soon as they hold something back.

(Quote)
kent beuchert Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:01 pm

What in the world is GM doing allowing Sexton within artillery range of their stuff? After the pack of lies she has told over the years about GM, you’d think folks that work for GM might take offense.
I take offense, and I don’t even work for GM.

(Quote)
beachliving Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:06 pm

She’s hot that’s why she is in here…:)

(Quote)
Jason Sander Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

#6 Kent:

I think it’s because it’s fashionable to hate on GM right now, and someone like Sexton is perfect; if she can be turned, then other like-thinking people will likely follow her lead. Remember; GM is not only trying to survive, but they are also trying to repair their image in the public at large. The EV1 was a PR disaster, and it will take a LOT of effort to fix that.

(Quote)
Justin DT Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:16 pm

Hey. I think I might have the answer for GM to make the range-extender quiet (if they haven’t already thought of it)!
Noise-cancelling technology!
Check this out (it’s not just Toyota doing it, there’s a few companies):
http://www.themotorreport.com.au/5928/toyota-to-fit-active-noise-cancelling-to-crown-hybrid/
It would be especially suitable for the Volt, because I believe the gas generator runs at constant revs most of the time, which means noise cancellation will work very well. And it might be cheaper and lighter to implement than other alternatives. For those who don’t know, noise cancellation produces ‘opposite’ sound waves using microphones, a computer and speakers, and cleverly negates the sound waves travelling through the air, to create impressive silence.
Thoughts anyone?

(Quote)
bruce g Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:19 pm

Now that is ambitious!
Frank wants the car to sound like an EV at all times!
He’s the man.

(Quote)
Jason Sander Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:20 pm

My noice cancellation technology is called “crank up the tunes!!!”

(Quote)
DonC Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

As I mentioned when Koz posted this link in the last thread, Chelsea Sexton is really a great resource for GM and for anyone interested in the Volt. First, she worked for GM on the EV1 so she knows a lot of people — Posawatz, Weber — and has known them for more than ten years. There is a level of trust there that you simply can’t replicate in many other ways. I doubt anyone else could have gotten Weber to spill the beans, as it were. (Wagoner of course probably doesn’t like her but he was the guy who killed the EV1 program, doubtless much to the dismay of the Posawatz’s and Weber’s of the world). You can tell this just by how the other GM employees reacted: “some of the other folks working with the other mules found out we were there and “happened” to drive by a few times”. Again, not something likely to “happen” if a journalist they don’t know shows up.

Second she knows a lot about EVs and she has a number of reference points, making her comments more valuable than say a journalist who may have never ridden in another EV in their life.

Third she’s incredibly well connected politically. Not only is she a fixture at any EV conference, she founded Plug In America, which is a lobbying group that has the ear of the Obama Administration as well as the environmental community. If she supports the Volt that’s a very good thing.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

Well, whatever the specific reason is, Frank Weber’s quote validates the “usual suspicions iof the blogosphere”

“Alas, Frank was typically insistent that it just wasn’t ready.”

There it is…NOT READY.

He didn’t say, “We are keeping it a super secret, so as not to tip off our competition.” Or “we are holding the cards close to our chest for now, and everything is ok.” He said it is not ready.

He does say the reason is ‘…you can hear the engine.” But what does that mean without further context? I’m pretty sure Frank knows what a ICE engine sounds like under normal operation, so it is not that.

We do know that he means that the sound/response it is making it is displeasing enough he doesn’t want anyone to hear it. Whether that be in normal operation, or when the car is put under stress…I dunno, who could (although I personally suspect it is the latter).

That is a very good article though, and she did a great job pulling out the info.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:41 pm

“So it is the fear of hearing the engine, not its feeling or performance that GM PR wants to avoid.”
___

Lyle, with all due respect,. . . . WTF?

This is what we’re supposed to believe? The only problem with the genset part of the volt is they want to get the ICE down from “whisper quiet” to dead silence? (Don’t we already have a pretty good idea what a 1 litre 4 cylinder is going to sound like?)

So with the pages and pages and thousands of posts with many, many technical references to why the EREV could have difficulties , (50mpg, power fade, lack of power, battery wear,maintenance issues, to name a few) we’re supposed to believe it’s all going smooth like butter/ just gotta get a little noise problem worked and we’re good to go!?

Good grief.

(Quote)
Mark M Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:46 pm

What is the MPG of the car in ICE mode??!!!! That is the most important thing we are not hearing. Who cares about the noise. Like it or not, most people will drive this car in ICE mode very frequently (if they wouldn’t, they’d get a BEV). Some may not get to charge it every not or even every few days. The mileage is critical to know at this stage of development, even if a rough number.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:51 pm

#15 carcus1 said:

Lyle, with all due respect,. . . . WTF?

This is what we’re supposed to believe? The only problem with the genset part of the volt is they want to get the ICE down from “whisper quiet” to dead silence? (Don’t we already have a pretty good idea what a 1 litre 4 cylinder is going to sound like?)

So with the pages and pages and thousands of posts with many, many technical references to why the EREV could have difficulties , (50mpg, power fade, lack of power, battery wear,maintenance issues, to name a few) we’re supposed to believe it’s all going smooth like butter/ just gotta get a little noise problem worked and we’re good to go!?

Good grief.
==================
I think the issue is more like, when the battery is dead and you are driving in extended range mode everything is fine when your just cruising along, that probably translates to very low RPMs as the system is very efficient (probably 1,500-2,000)…until you decide to ‘give it’.

The 82 HP Family 0 engine then likely has to ramp up into its high power band, as it will need every drop of juice to accelerate and/or push uphill a 3,500lb car at even a marginally acceptable level, which means optimizing the RPMs, which also unfortunately happens at 5,600 RPM/HP and 4,000RPM/torque.

Most ‘average’ people are not familiar with the sound/feel of 5,600RPM out of a four banger…unless of course they drive a stick and are very aggresive, and even then you are talking about hitting ‘the note’ for about half a second…and not a prolonged visit.

It is a problem that would seem to fit the bill/make sense. Maybe they regret not using one of their more mainstream V6s in there and just give away the extra 5-10 MPGs.

/jmho

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

#17 Statik,

In the case you’re describing, the noise isn’t the problem . . it’s a symptom.

(Quote)
solo Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:24 pm

I don’t think noise will be an issue for the first buyers. They will be buying the car for what it is, battery operated with a gas engine backup. It will be exotic and nobody else will have anything like it.

When Dodge first offered the Cummins diesel engine it was (and still is) outrageously expensive, at the time about 4200 dollars in 1989. I’m sure more than a few people bought it even if they didn’t need it for towing because the damn thing sounded so cool. You could actually drive a pickup that sounded like a Kenworth. Believe me, the NVH of those first diesel engines would make your teeth rattle. I drove a 1994 model that had 5 model years refinement. The noise/vibration was so intense it caused the roof sheet metal on the inside to resonate like a big sub woofer at certain RPM, increasing the racket by a factor of 2. Let me tell you, it was AWESOME. It was exotic and nobody else had anything like it. ( Ford and Chevy diesels at the time couldn’t compare and Dodge doubled the number of trucks they sold very quickly).

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:27 pm

The Volt 1.4L gasoline engine isn’t connected to the wheels what so ever.

I would suspect about 2800 rpm at “normal” operation demand. And up to 3800 rpm for the highest demand. Lyle’s mule test drive handled the hill from h3ll at 50 mph.

My current 2.4 L engine would be down shifting to 4800 rpm to handle this steep incline at 50 mph. Fuel consumption would be about 18 mpg.

=D~

(Quote)
CorvetteGuy Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:28 pm

So that means you get another shot at the test track in a VOLT?
I am so jealous.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:36 pm

Funny, I didn’t really think that the Prius was that quiet.
_________________

Is this yet another comparison to the model no longer in production?

How many have actually driven a 2010 Prius for proper comparison?

Of course, what is the point when the dB is already that low anyway?

(Quote)
Grady C Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:51 pm

#17 statik,

You’re saying the Volt in ICE mode is going to have to turn 5,600rpm to get over hills or accelerate? I’d think that would be unacceptable to a lot of potential buyers.

(Quote)
Jorge Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:00 pm

Slightly of topic…

I hope there is nobody on this site still holding on to GM stock.

(Quote)
ohmexcited Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:40 pm

I was not too impressed with Chelsea in the movie WKTEC, which I otherwise enjoyed. Specifically, her as a former Saturn salesperson teary eyed lecturing a 100 year manufacturing company on the economy of scale. That said, I identified with her emotional draw to the EV.

(Quote)
Frank D Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:42 am

I’d rather listen to my tunes while driving the Volt!

(Quote)
Gregski Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:28 am

It aint that hard, check it out, this guy did it to a Chevy and it has a generator to assist, similar to the Volt

http://www.evalbum.com/682

(Quote)
Gregski Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:36 am

#16 Mark M Says:

Echo that Mark? Completely, I could care less about the noise as well, plus I don’t buy it that, that is their hold up, I think it’s the horse power and MPG.

(Quote)
Dunder Mifflin Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:43 am

Chelsea Sexton in the picture, all together now, can we say “DAMAGE CONTROL” what a perfect little PR stunt !

(Quote)
Darius Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 3:17 am

#17 Statik,

Volt’s engine is too big, mighty and expensive. And all range extension part is irrational. Existing solution is not for average consumer. There is no need of 55 kW IEC in case you have need for this amount of capacity for 10 s excluding theoretical maintain driving. In series hybryd case peak capacity deficit can bee easily covered by batteries or capacitors.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/spirit-avert-20090527.html#more

(Quote)
Ken Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:43 am

I welcome reading that the Volt when is extended range is used (gas engine running) is quite.
I have a Prius and the car is unusually quiet, so the Volt needs to offer the same level of quietness or be lower. My other question (which has not been address) is the level of electic motor noise (whining) when the Volt is running at 50-70 mph.

(Quote)
Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:48 am

Having done iterative product development myself, I can vouch for incomplete solutions in prototype while complete solutions are known, designed and ready for the next build. Trust these engineers that RE mode in the Volt prototypes will be significantly better, justifying their decision NOT to demonstrate it now.

(Quote)
Zach Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:51 am

#33

(Quote)
GeorgeB Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 5:59 am

Darius #29

Thanks for the link to the Spirit Evert, but… that is one hideous looking car. There will be electric car companies coming out of the woodwork now, all headed up by some ex-designer/CEO from one of the larger companies, but the reality is that a large scale production is the only solution to getting the EREV concept viable. That means GM or another mass production company.

This is all about the production line, not the vehicle. Large volume means lower cost and, after all, it’s all about the Benjamins.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 6:15 am

The integration of the ICE with the rest of the car is the most complicated task I can see for the Volt team. GM has already done electric drive with the EV1 and the fuel cell Equinox.

But now the ICE must come on at the proper time, provide only “AVERAGE” power (and that is difficult to predict), and change rpm settings with load changes. For a fast drive on a curvy mountain road, the ICE could theoretically be changing rpm’s every few seconds!!

So I’m sure that the final software for the ICE operation is not complete, not to mention that GM may still actually change the ICE itself (cam, valve, ignition timing, fuel injection, etc.). I’m not surprised at this point that GM is not demonstrating this to the media.

Regarding the noise level while in charge sustaining mode, Chelsea has made a subjective observation. Did see use a sound meter? Where is the data?

SMTD!

Besides, she is probably comparing this to the last generation Prissy. The new generation has got to be at least 20 dB quieter.

And just because GM president Troy Clarke states:

“And if the driver of a Volt needs to go beyond 40 miles, the engine kicks in to supply the electricity to recharge the battery and keep the vehicle moving. This allows the vehicle to drive as much as 400 additional miles, while getting significantly better fuel economy than any other car on the market today.”

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmediaspeechdetail.do?domain=588&docid=46353

This was said a year ago, and obviously Troy didn’t anticipate how incredible the new 2010 Prissy would be.

(Quote)
Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 6:28 am

BillR, if GM has already successfully integrated a fuel cell into an EV, then integrating an ICE into an EV will be simple. A fuel cell vehicle is a series hybrid that is powered by a fuel cell instead of an ICE, so much of the knowledge is in hand. Right now GM is just fine tuning the driving experience.

(Quote)
FME III Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 6:28 am

Interesting discussion.

Personally, I think there was nothing accidental about Sexton getting to hear the car in ICE mode. She herself notes the raging suspicions (which we helped start) and I’m sure Weber et al noted them, too. This was a low key way to address the issue.

For GM’s PR efforts vis-a-vis the Volt, Sexton’s report was a grand slam: They made a convert of one of their worst critics, and they redirected the discussion about the ICE transition away from damaging conjecture that there was something seriously wrong with it.

So now we can all ruminate on how loud the engine is. Statik, I agree that surely the engine ramps up to get the car uphill, but any definitive statement about how many rpms the engine pulls is nothing but pure guesswork on our part. Remember — uphill climbs are one of the reasons that the battery maintains a 30 percent reserve.

(Quote)
Jim I Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 6:50 am

I guess there is going to be a lot of useless posting concerning specs we don’t have, and performance data that does not exist between now and when Lyle gets his second test drive……

(Quote)
dc Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 7:06 am

“No real world data, no sale”

On a list of 100 things that I am worried about concerning the Volt, the freaking engine sound is #150.

(Quote)
dorp7 Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 7:13 am

If they completely eliminate the sound of the ICE kicking in, I hope they are planning on some other indication to the driver that he/she is now burning gas. A light or symbol on the dash? Yeah, there’s a state of charge indicator for the battery, but it seems they’d also want a positive indication of exactly when it kicks on.

Brings up another question – will the driver be able to read how many miles were driven in pure EV vs. EREV mode? Two seperate odometers? I’m sure its recorded somewhere, but where, and how do we see that info?

(Quote)
Exp_EngTech Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 7:41 am

Elmer Fudd on the Volt…..

“Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet. I’m hunting Pwiusses…..”

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 7:57 am

One of the really neat things you can do when you have the software able to “mix” your acceleration, hill-climbing, and steady-state-cruise power requirements from both the pack and the ICE, is that you can very very gradually change your RPM settings very smoothly.
As well, there are at least 5 things inside an ICE that you have at your disposal in order to control noise. (Timing, Injector Pulsewidth, variable intake tuning, slow accelerator position transducer actuation, and variable cam timing, etc). Thanks to all the ICE research of the past 30 years with electronics, (which has software-loss overkill at this point for ICE), getting engine noise down more and more is just a matter of finishing one set of Voltec research tasks and finalizing the ICE engine tasks for Genset Quietlearn.
A V-6 would absolutely be out of the question. I am not a fan of V-6’s when variable cam timing can do just about all those horsepower tasks by increasing volumetric efficiency. That is done by making the valves open deeper into the cylinders with extra oil pressure via a valve driven by a solenoid.
Plus, over the long term, the extra latent heat that a V-6 retains over the years tends to accelerate wear patterns for engine external parts. It is also just a LOT of extra unnecessary weight and bulk for which there is no room.
Tuning out more and more of the noise ought to have the Voltec vehicles performing at an astonishingly quiet confidence level.
When I first rode in a vehicle that had about 300 VERY QUIET horsepower, (it was in an extremely well-performanced Monza way back in 1974), it was a complete set of synergistic technical statements to me all perceived and impressed upon me permanently, all in a matter of about 7 seconds of zero to sixty.
I had been used to hearing a 375 very loud horsepower 396 SS Chevelle (1969) for a few years, but, when I got into that little Chevy Monza with all that quiet horsepower (the HP to weight ratio was close to the ‘69 SS), I was the most impressed as I ever was going to get with ICE power refinement. I shouted “THIS IS REFINED POWER!!!!”.
This exact same astonishment awaits the Voltec customer. All other OEM’s ought to be very worried if they are not going this way.
But soon, Wind Energy collected and sold to me by Austin Energy will have me quietly

“Riding on the Wind” (another good tune for a jingle).
Expect good things to happen for you today,
(blessings in disguise), everyone!!
Dan Petit Austin TX

(Quote)
RB Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:00 am

The last paragraph of the post begins
Since the true Volts are currently being built…
——————————–

Those cars being assembled now may be “true” Volts in that they will look like the production Volt, but they will not be “true” Volts the sense of being final Volts or production Volts.

What is being built, as it has been explained here, are integration vehicles. These prototypes are the first that bring together the “real” body with the “real” power train. We all appreciate the power of present day 3D computer models and all that, but in real life there are going to be some things that don’t fit exactly right, one hopes not major, some issues about fitting things into the right space (gas tank?), and significant issues with the suspension and steering response

Beyond that, these will be the first prototypes that have the “real” instrumentation in them. One can be sure that things won’t go quite right. It is the time when you find out that the wires to the radio are one inch too short and the hole where the wires go from the engine into the cabin is covered up by the electric motor. I make these up of course, but there are going to be all sorts of little problems. Beyond the things that do not quite fit or connect, there are going to be issues with “feel”. That is, even if the dashboard display works as originally planned, it will not show the right thing at the right time for people to say “I like it”.

So there is going to be a lot of testing of these prototypes and a lot of changes made between the first integration vehicles and the production Volt. That is, these vehicles are still “just” prototypes, not real Volts. What the engineering people are thinking (hoping) is that the integration vehicles are close enough to be satisfactory that relatively small changes in one thing and another are all that’s left.

This also is time fraught with danger, when fixing one little problem (say moving the air conditioner over an inch) creates another problem, which creates another, and finally the whole project turns into a mess. We can keep our fingers crossed.

(Quote)
Tagamet Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:12 am

JinI@37 said:
“I guess there is going to be a lot of useless posting concerning specs we don’t have, and performance data that does not exist between now and when Lyle gets his second test drive……”

Amen. Positive speculation and negative (SHRUG). “Bring in the guilty car and then we’ll give it a fair trial” (sigh).
Patience.
Be well,
Tagamet

LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
Rick Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:21 am

I can see why GM doesn’t want to run in generator mode.

The car driving experience is no different as the drive stsem hasn’t changes only the source of electrical power changes.

Noise = wasted energy. The trick isn’t to hide the noise it is to actually make less noise.

(Quote)
Van Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:21 am

One could assume that the reason given is the actual reason if GM was trusted. And if GM is not trusted, then …

(Quote)
Neutron Flux Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:23 am

Noise cancelling is a waste of time! There is already a move on to insure a minimum DB level of noise is required out of a EV in some quarters to insure that blind people can hear them comming. All that time & effort only to be required to make it noisy again in order to sell it. I imagine there are many many areas where there are no lighted intersections where sight impaired people cross that is a concern. Perhaps they will have an option to tie it into the GPS navigation system so it makes noise near the required intersections as deemed necessary by the sight impaired if required by law. Those who want to minimize the noise will pay for it.

(Quote)
AFKlingon Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:27 am

Anyone read this CNN article?

http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/27/autos/gm.bankruptcy.fortune/index.htm

This is something I have been wondering about.

“The government is likely to loom larger in other GM actions post-bankruptcy, since it will own 70% of the company. Although it disclaims any interest in micromanaging the automaker, it wouldn’t be human if it didn’t try to make some helpful suggestions.

Such as asking GM, why are you spending $1 billion on the Volt extended-range electric vehicle when you’re not going to make a profit on it?”

(Quote)
evchels Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:32 am

Oh, I love #40!!! And thank all of you for reading the piece and for all of your comments! I’ve struggled forever w the idea of blogging because I couldn’t imagine anyone wanting to read it- such a surprise. ;o)

Ok, so maybe the Prius wasn’t the right car to pick- though I do have a lot of people tell me that they think it’s quiet. All a matter of what you’re used to. All I can tell you is that at least at “city” speeds, it’s quieter than many ICE vehicles, and doesn’t even have the same sound quality. More of a whir than a traditional engine noise. My point was that Frank and the others are indeed being perfectionists, I think in part by nature and in part because they realize what’s at stake with this car. I respect that, even if it runs up against my (and others’) impatience to see cars on the road sooner than later. But the car’s already pretty damned good, propulsion-wise, and I’m thrilled to see them on track.

(Quote)
Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:41 am

evchels, thanks again for your post(s) – your enthusiasm was/is a much needed morale booster for GM and gm-volt.com

(Quote)
Jason S Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:43 am

I really don’t understand all this talk about blind people unable to hear EV’s coming. Where is this research? Is there some study somewhere where they interview actual blind people, especially ones who have real-world experience with the sound of EV’s?

Approaching ICE cars aren’t all that noisy (unless it’s modified to be louder). At least in my own experience, all I hear is the tire sound, which EV’s will still make. In my own humble opinion, all this talk about requiring EV’s to make some sort of artificial sound is absolute rubbish.

(Quote)
nasaman Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:44 am

Hey, #48 evchels ….nice to have you visit us! Why not make a habit of it?

#40 also “qwaked” me up!

(Quote)
MarkinWI Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:01 am

Bankruptcy averted?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-bondholders-accept-new-swap-offer

AF@#47 – The “gubment” will probably look to off-load shares at the earliest prudent opportunity.

(Quote)
Nick D Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:02 am

Stocks rise on reports of GM bondholder agreement!!!

(Quote)
MarkinWI Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:07 am

Re (Me) @ #52 – P.S. Sounds like bondholders have agreed “not to oppose reorganization plan.” Still sounds like bankruptcy to me. Sounds like GM has just cut a deal with the (smaller) percentage of bondholders needed to get the bankruptcy plan through smoothly. A larger percentage of bondholders would have been needed to avoid bankruptcy.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:08 am

#53 Nick D said:

Stocks rise on reports of GM bondholder agreement!!!
==========================

All I have read it as GM has sweetened the deal to 15% in a filing with the SEC this morning….not that the bondholders have agreed to a new deal. There are so many of them…how could they have?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-sweetens-offer-to-apf-15369753.html?sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

(Quote)
Unni Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:08 am

Was reading comments in her site. Somebody posted a link to http://www.rotapower.info/

In theory as they market the product, it looks that engine will have same mpg offered by diesel and very low noise,size and vibration.

I think If GM is really concerned on those issues, they should evaluate and license technology (if works ) and use it in cars ( ex: as i understood, they can have a 70mpg cruze with out hybrid if the claims on that site is true – better than diesel engine ).

This may be a lowtech solution than a high tech solution of noise cancellation etc but if works can be used in sparc , cruze etc and every thing will be 70+ mpg. May be for a volt v2 also:-)

(Quote)
BillR Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:15 am

#40 Exp_EngTech,

That is a beauty!! I’m LMAO!

(Quote)
Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:17 am

evchels, I also like the warranty relief suggestion that you proposed to the Obama administration. That would certainly allow for smaller / cheaper battery packs, with the only effect to the customer being that they transition into charge sustaining mode sooner than 40 miles when the vehicle is 5 years old or older.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:22 am

#55 Statik (me)

All I have read it as GM has sweetened the deal to 15% in a filing with the SEC this morning….not that the bondholders have agreed to a new deal. There are so many of them…how could they have?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-sweetens-offer-to-apf-15369753.html?sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=
==========================================

I guess I should amend that, there is a committee of bondholders that has agree to/came up with this new deal with GM…but we don’t know who, or how many of them.

(Quote)
Schmeltz Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:24 am

#48 evchels:

Thanks for joining our discussion(s). I enjoyed reading your take on the Volt ride. Question for you: Do you think an E-Rev version of the Cruze, (pretty much the car in mule form you drove), would be a viable stable mate with the Volt? I’m thinking a Cruze with say maybe a 10 mile All Electric Range or so to keep the cost down. Sort of a “Volt-Light.” What are your thoughts after having driven essentially what I’m describing?

(Quote)
nasaman Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:28 am

Re: engine noise…. #9 Justin DT suggests Noise-cancelling technology.
===========================================================================
Not a bad idea, and I wouldn’t be surprised if GM already has a supplier like Bose working on this for a next-generation or an up-scale Voltec vehicle if not for the Volt itself. In fact, I suggested to Tony Posawatz in NYC at VoltNation that GM should get Bose involved in developing a very low power demand but very high quality surround-sound audio system that would take advantage of the Volt’s unique interior layout with 4 bucket seats, as follows…..

Each seat’s “shoulders” could recess a 2 1/2″ speaker on each side of the occupant’s head, which would place them within about 6″ of each ear. This would allow each seat’s occupant to adjust his/her own volume level (and perhaps program choice) from individual controls located in the front & rear center consoles —4 sets of controls, 1 for each of the 4 seats. This approach would permit BOTH extraordinary fidelity (approaching that of studio-quality binaural headphones) AND dramatically-lower raw power consumption. No separate door speakers or subwoofers (or the much higher power to drive them) should be needed. And these eight 2 1/2″ seat shoulder-mounted speakers could also do double duty….

Small microphones could be placed in the seats near these speakers (as with noise-cancelling headphones) to detect engine, wind, road and other muffled noise and invert it to render it inaudible. The extremely low power drain would allow the noise-cancelling circuitry to be ON whenever the car’s ignition switch was on, and the audio system could be operated at full volume with a raw power drain only a small fraction of that needed by a conventional audio system using dash/door mounted speakers and large subwoofers.

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:32 am

#59 Statik

It’s an “unofficial committee” that collectively holds 20% of the outstanding notes. Not even close to enough to avert a bankruptcy. But it may make the actual proceedings go faster.

http://blogs.wsj.com/autoshow/2009/05/28/gms-sec-filing-on-the-treasury-offer/

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:43 am

61 nasaman

I’m not sure that would work because how would you prevent cancelling the sound of the radio, a police siren, a horn honk, or someone talking to you? The mics would have to be in the engine compartment, or outside the passenger compartment.. but the sounds from those areas aren’t the same wavelengths you are experiencing inside the car.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:47 am

Let’s hope GM does not wait until the fall to dispel this problem. And it is a problem as long as it is an unknown. The issue could be settled very quickly by letting some car magazine writer test drive one of the Integration Vehicles as soon as possible. No sense in waiting until this fall or winter and let the “rumor” build that something is wrong with the Volt’s ICE start-up and running sequences. That is not good PR for GM. And GM needs all the good PR it can get. Someone at GM needs to get their heads out of the sand and make a decision. And they need to do it very soon.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:48 am

62 LauraM
This is where they start whittling to that central position…. somewhere in the middle. We’ll see where it ends up.

(Quote)
Sheet4brains Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:51 am

Yes! Comparison to the awesome Prius is high praise indeed. The closer the Volt hybrid is compared to the mighty Toyota Prius the better. Chevy would be wise to follow in the footsteps of Toyota engineers, who by the way are the world’s finest period, end of sentence. Go Prius and Go Volt.

(Quote)
Willy Bio Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:56 am

Post 50,

You are correct. The red herring bull$hit about blind people being at risk is absurd. Take a digital sound meter and do some tests yourself. Neighborhood streets (since highways do not apply) at neighborhood street speeds. Compare the decibels of the oncoming vehicles. Try several modern compact cars, then a Prius in EV mode.

Then do the same test in a busy city where ambient noise is much higher.

In both situations, you’ll find essentially no difference. All the vehicles will be silent except for tire noise while on approach. In the city, you won’t even get a blip from the tire noise until the cars are right next to you.

Of course there is also the annoying point of logic concerning bicycles, which are fast becoming legion in this hard economy.

Can someone please do this study in a true scientific fashion so we can put this stupid argument in the ground?

(Quote)
Van Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 9:57 am

In other news…

Honda seems on a path to sell a non-plug in hybrid for between $12,000 and $19,000, that gets better mileage than the 2010 Prius.

http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/honda-fit-hybrid.html

(Quote)
nasaman Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:00 am

Re: #63 k-dawg……..
—————————————————————————————————————————–
Remember that the microphones must sense the same sound as the ears, therefore be very close to the ears (as with noise-cancelling headphones). Also, the normal passive sound absorbing techniques will significantly reduce both the frequencies & the levels of residual noises, hence the terms “muted” or “muffled”. Sirens, horns, bells etc are designed to penetrate to car interiors (higher frequencies & sound pressure levels) than the subtle muted sounds of an engine, wind, road and other muffled noises that get through passive noise absorption.

Aso remember that all these residual noises are at a very low level, i.e., “subtle” by contrast to speech, radio, music, etc. If it works with noise-cancelling headphones it should also work as I described in #61.

(Quote)
ThombDBhomb Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:06 am

#67 Willy Bio

I’ve been riding my bicycle for almost 50 years. It is very quiet (except for my occaisional huffing and puffing). I’ve never hit a blind person.

(Quote)
GM Volt Fan Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:15 am

I bet the early models of the Volt will be plenty quiet when it is is generator mode. For Volt 2.0 and beyond, GM ought to take a look at the latest and greatest noise dampening technologies like they use with jet engines. Who knows, maybe there is something relatively inexpensive they use to cancel out the noise coming from the engine.

I think it would be great to see less noise in the world for ALL types of engines … from lawn mowers and weed eaters to cars, trucks, and jet airliners. Technology like this new “micro honeycomb material” developed by Georgia Tech. If it can reduce the noise of jets by 30%, imagine what it could do for the Volt. Upcoming Voltec vehicles might be as quiet as an all electric car like the Tesla Roadster.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080929163717.htm

(Quote)
DonC Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:16 am

#40 Exp_EngTech — That was vewy vewy funny!

#48 EVChels — Wonderful to have you stop by. As nasaman says, do it more frequently!

#61 nasaman — I have a Bose noise cancelling system on one of my cars, though it doesn’t have speakers in the seats like you’ve described. In truth it’s hard to tell how much difference it makes since it’s only active when the sound is on and when that happens you’re normally listening to something.

I have the Bose noise cancelling headphones as well. Those you can tell make a big difference because you may not have anything playing. You do however have the speakers on your head and cupping your ears. Even here I’ve found noise isolating canal speakers to be superior but that may be because the Bose phones are really large and bulky.

Rather than spending time on noise cancelling technology in the cabin I’d vote for solutions along the lines discussed by Dan Petit in #41.

#42 RB – Good points about the build. Fisker will let us know just how important this step is. To meet its deadline, Fisker is skipping vehicle integration testing and going straight to production. That’s how it expects to get the Karma to market before the Volt. It will be interesting to see how it works out for them. It’s a good test because the information will be useful whether this works or not.

(Quote)
Rad Drumaster Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:22 am

GM hides the huge gasoline engine from the public because they don’t want to scare away many environmentalists who may have had an interest in the Volt. This 1.4 liter engine is a pollution center at the core of the Volt, also Noise Pollution from this honking fossil fuel motor is not a very good selling point either. Listen to me now, and believe me later. The Volt ICE will be noticed by the driver when it runs, no doubt about it. Also, this ICE will require tremendous maintenance compared to the electric components.

Warning: DO NOT BUY YOUR NEXT CAR FROM A BANKRUPT (aka FAILED) CORPORATION. USE YOUR BRAIN ON THIS ONE.

You have been warned.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:38 am

69 nasaman
wouldn’t it be cheaper/easier to just put a headphone jack in the seat and give the driver a set of headphones (or go the wireless route)? Each passenger could listen to their own station/mp3/whatever. And you could put a mic on the headset for handsfree phone calls.

All in all, it all seems like a lot to me to eliminate some muffled sounds. And if it is that important to a driver, they could shell out the extra cash to get this stuff from a 3rd party.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:43 am

DonC
Maybe Fisker is not AS concerned about the IV testing because (I thought) they were more like a Telsa and were going to be hand building everything.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:45 am

A lot of SUV’s automatically increase the volume of the radio when the engine rev’s up. That’s one way to prevent hearing the engine.

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:51 am

#65 k-dawg

But there isn’t time for that. GM has a pretty firm deadline of June 1st. And there are too many individual bondholders to reach a last minute negotiated settlement.

By the way, GM’s secured bondholders are getting par value.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124338322763456581.html#mod=article-outset-box

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:53 am

#16 Statik

t is a problem that would seem to fit the bill/make sense. Maybe they regret not using one of their more mainstream V6s in there and just give away the extra 5-10 MPGs.

/jmho
———————————–

Statik, you really should just drop the “JMHO” or the “IMHO’ and use “JMO” or “IMO” because I have yet to see anyting “humble” about you or your comments. You are like me. You say what you think and you let the chips fall where they may. There is nothing humble about that at all. That is why I use “IMO” on some of my comments. And very few of them even then. I just don’t feel too humble when I am commenting and I know you must not either. So, let it all hang out, Statik. Go get ‘em.

(Quote)
Mark Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:01 am

#68 Van

Wow a 15K Honda 4 door hybrid would be a Volt/Prius killer for sure. Amazing that they are able to bump it up 1 and half years ahead of schedule! Honda seems serious about taking over the green market from Toyota. If they have 2 options under 20k, they could dominate, espcially with the current Insight getting 60+mpg in real world driving.

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:06 am

#40 LOL! Welcome!
——————————————————————————-
#73 Rad Drumaster, you are a Troll
There are millions of people who would not give a BEV a second look (I am one of them) but who see the potential here.
As for ‘hiding the “huge” 1.4 litre engine get over yourself! My current daily driver has a 3.1litre V6 (it’s a Malibu) My wifes daily driver has a 2.5l (Subaru) and my truck a 4l V8 (Land Rover Discovery) so this would be a MUCH smaller engine than I am used to having.

Your irrational comments weaken your position when you are talking about a small clean engine. So climb into your 1.5l Yaris or 1.8l Prius and have a nice day.
————————————————————————————-
I believe the issue is as has been discussed here many times before, that we are used to the sound of an engine changing with the speed of travel and the changing of gears. It is likely somewhat disconcerting to have the engine ‘droning’ at a steady speed while it does it’s thing.

The sound NEEDS to be tuned out as it would absolutely get ‘annoying’. The best method to do this needs to be determined with the IV’s.

Perfection should always be the goal, time, conflicts and budgets always cause things to be a little short of it in the end, it’s finding the ideal compromise that is the challenge.

(Quote)
Adrian Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:06 am

#79,
I read a review ripping apart the Insight. You get what you pay for… poor build quality, cheap materials, and other things you associate with a old Kia or Yugo than a Honda.

Of course for the same price you can get a larger (at least I think it is) Jetta TDI and get 40MPG.

(Quote)
Tall Pete Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:06 am

#5 blakem:
Funny, I didn’t really think that the Prius was that quiet. Noisy or not, I think GM might be better off just showing what they have. It seems that we all start to question their engineering as soon as they hold something back.

#13 statik :
Well, whatever the specific reason is, Frank Weber’s quote validates the “usual suspicions iof the blogosphere”

“Alas, Frank was typically insistent that it just wasn’t ready.”

There it is…NOT READY.
(…)
————————————————————————————————————————–
You’re right Statik my friend, without context, you cannot really tell what means ‘not ready’ to Frank Weber.

Let’s do some assumptions. Say you created a BEV before, let’s call it EV1 for the purpose of this example. And say you truly want you next creation to sound and feel like a BEV so it stands out over your competition and sends a clear message that you outengineered them. In this example, let’s call the competition Prius.

In that context, ANY noise means your vehicule is not ready.

And Blakem, when your engineering is questioned, you don’t show your creation before it is perfect. You wait and make it perfect to change your image and beat your competition, not send the wrong message that you are sloppy.

The point here is to create a landmark vehicule, the car that all other makers are going to be compared to. You want everything to stand out and all the flaws removed before showing it.

You don’t rehearse in front of the general public. Too much at stake here.

JMHO

(Quote)
kgurnsey Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:11 am

@ static #16

More like when you’re cruising down a city street, and the genset is at, say, RPM level 2 (producing roughly the average power needed to overcome friction and run accessories), and you decide to hop on the highway. The battery will provide the power needed to accelerate up to highway speed, but then the genset will need to kick it up a notch to, say, RPM level 4, to produce roughly the average power needed to over come the added aerodynamic drag caused by the higher speed.

The genset provides enough energy to maintain the battery at roughly 30% SOC. That’s it. The genset will only need to run at the RPM that most closely matches the average rate of discharge. It’s not directly linked to the moment to moment needs of the motor. The battery remains the sole source of power for the motor at all times.

Even if the momentary demand of the motor outstrips the genset’s output, the driver would feel no change in performance.

No wonder it’s “not ready yet”, they are still at the inegration prototype stage. That, by definition, means that the final production model is not yet ready. What it is, from the sounds of it, is well on it’ way to being completed.

@Jason M. Hendler #35

I disagree. An ICE is a much more complicated piece of machinery to design. Thousands of moving parts, all timed to the millisecond, versus no moving parts at all. Critical and complex lubrication needs, versus none. Mechanical and electrical (hardware and software) integration versus… I think you get the picture. Getting all that to work in concert with a purely electric drive train… I would expect the integration of an ICE to be much more complicated than a fuel cell.

(Quote)
Adrian Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:12 am

I take issue with 20% of the buyers using the car in generator mode in an emergency. So, you use a different car for road trips? Sounds a bit hypocritical. Since the Volt will not save you a dime (based on current projected MSRP and other real world driving assumptions) the only real reason to buy the car to invest in the future or to back a cause. Therefore, you should want to drive the car everywhere.

Based on the above and desire of the readers to want the Volt to survive (though GM might not) I will assume the story above just over looked the American (and other car car lovers in various countries) love of road trips.

(Quote)
FME III Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:17 am

#42 RB Thanks for a very cogent explanation of this next stage of the Volt’s development.

I can see where GM would not want to skip this phase given the numbers they plan to build. And yes, it does sound like Fisker’s taking a risk.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:21 am

#55/#55 statik said:

All I have read it as GM has sweetened the deal to 15% in a filing with the SEC this morning….not that the bondholders have agreed to a new deal. There are so many of them…how could they have?

I guess I should amend that, there is a committee of bondholders that has agree to/came up with this new deal with GM…but we don’t know who, or how many of them.

——————–
#62 LauraM said:

#59 Statik, It’s an “unofficial committee” that collectively holds 20% of the outstanding notes. Not even close to enough to avert a bankruptcy. But it may make the actual proceedings go faster.

http://blogs.wsj.com/autoshow/2009/05/28/gms-sec-filing-on-the-treasury-offer/
===========================

There you go…thanks Laura.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:23 am

#34 BillR

So I’m sure that the final software for the ICE operation is not complete, not to mention that GM may still actually change the ICE itself (cam, valve, ignition timing, fuel injection, etc.). I’m not surprised at this point that GM is not demonstrating this to the media.
—————————–

Bill, it may be that GM does have engine changes as part of the ICE and they don’t want to talk about it so not to give the competition time to come out with something similar around the same time the Volt appears. I know I would want to keep things under wraps as long as I could, if it were me doing the engineering and building something like the Volt. Competitors are measuring and weighing every word that comes out of GM’s mouth as well as what others are saying about the Volt.

(Quote)
The Grump Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:25 am

#63 K-dawg – Every noise cancelling device I ever tried only cancelled out the low frequency sounds – like a jet engine. There is no problem hearing sirens, voices and the like – unless your noise cancelling headphones cover your ears.

I tried to buy “true” noice cancelling headphones – which would cancel ALL sound. No luck – they don’t exist. They would have been be nice to have when I recent flew to Vegas – 2 rows behind a mother who’s baby would not stop crying the ENTIRE flight.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:32 am

#39 dorp7

If they completely eliminate the sound of the ICE kicking in, I hope they are planning on some other indication to the driver that he/she is now burning gas. A light or symbol on the dash? Yeah, there’s a state of charge indicator for the battery, but it seems they’d also want a positive indication of exactly when it kicks on.
———————————

Maybe a little engine icon could come on with the fan turning while a chime sounds a couple of times. Or even better than the chime, let a Star Trek type computer voice say: “Engaging Range Extended Mode”. How cool would that be for us who follow the Star Trek shows.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:33 am

77 LauraM

I was thinking negotiations before,during, and after CH11… how the cookie will eventually crumble.
I cant read the article you linked because I dont have a subscription. If the Secured banks are getting par, what does that mean for the other debtors? Everyday gets more interesting.

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:34 am

#89 N Riley
Exactly! Range extender… Engage!

(Quote)
Jason S Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:35 am

#84 Adrian:

It is my belief that the number quoted for % of Americans who drive less than 40 miles a day is coming from just that: Daily driving. How far do you drive on a daily basis? Myself, I definately drive less than that on a daily basis. However, I do love the occassional roadtrip; but how often do I do long roadtrips? Certainly not daily. Maybe every other weekend. But during the week, I wouldn’t have to fill up at all. Currently, I fill up once a week in my Honda Fit. How awesome would it be to not have to fill up more than once a month, or even longer?

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:35 am

#75
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:43 am

DonC
Maybe Fisker is not AS concerned about the IV testing because (I thought) they were more like a Telsa and were going to be hand building everything.
____________________________

Difference in volume, difference in market!

A few recalls for the first few dozen, a change or two under warranty = no big deal for Fisker. But what kind of black eye would this mean for GM and the Volt program? What would the costs be if the problems weren’t discovered until hundreds of thousands of Volts were on the roads?

Add to this Fisker is a design/development guy and not a production guy, his value system is a little different than the men and women constructing the overall process at GM. I’m sure that for a Fisker build at Fisker Motors what Fisker says goes!

To illustrate the difference in market look at Ferrari drivers. They feel sometimes they are very special in the auto driving firmament and not every one is entitled the Ferrari driving experience. If a clutch goes out at high speed in a nearly new Ferrari it is proof to the driver that by stopping the car safely they are far better than the average driver, and by being able to spend more than the price of a Chevy Aveo to replace it, offers more proof that the typical car buyer should stay away because the proper upkeep would be impossible!

In contrast, if the Chevy Aveo owners $18 door handle breaks under warranty, he will swear to anyone that will listen that it’s the worst car ever made!

Tesla did make a few of what they termed validation prototypes and some integration prototypes.

(Quote)
DonC Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:37 am

#82 Tall Pete says “you cannot really tell what means ‘not ready’ to Frank Weber.”

I think it’s different than this. You start with goals, say a quiet ride when the ICE is running. You have a general ideas of the things you can do to get a quiet ride. You implement them. You tweak the implementation. Then you answer the question whether the result is “good enough”.

Thus there are two sides to the equation. There is the question of whether something is “good enough”. But there is also the question of how much better you think it can be. So even if something could be deemed to be “good enough”, the engineers may decide it’s not ready if they believe they can make it significantly better, think they know how to do it, and have plans to do so. This is why I didn’t buy into there being anything was wrong with the ICE. (Remember Lutz said it was working a year ago.) i just thought the engineers believed they had room for substantial improvements and didn’t want to demo those features until they had a chance to make more progress. Frank Weber has been around long enough to understand the rule of 80/20 and the law of diminishing returns. I just think he believes that given a little more time they can do a lot better.

Having said that, I’d agree with statik — mostly based on what Lyle has posted — that the issue of noise likely appears when the car is under higher loads and the rpms are higher. That just makes intuitive sense. However, as Carcus1 rightly points out, noise is one thing but a shrieking engine is a symptom of a bigger problem. Hopefully they’re dealing the former and not the latter. My guess is that they are.

#75 k-dawg — Yes you are probably right.

(Quote)
DonC Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 11:55 am

Here’s some more info on the unsecured bondholder deal:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090528/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_bondholders

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/business/29auto.html?_r=1&hp

There has never been any question, AFAIK, that the secured holders would not get paid off. Those loans are secured in large part by GM’s patent portfolio, which has value. In fact without that portfolio neither GM nor Opel is going to be able to manufacture vehicles.

The big question has been the unsecured bondholders. Since the UAW is also an unsecured holder, the fairness argument has been raised as to whether the UAW is being treated “unfairly well”. Its agreement to take only 20% rather than 30% of the new company is intended to address this. Upping the ante for the other unsecured bondholders so they could receive as much as 25% of the new company is designed to address the other side of basically the same issue.

The GM bankruptcy is going to be horrifically complex and very expensive. And the expense is never going to be recovered. But if the major unsecured bondholders accept the offer — as they seem to have done — then the 363 sale may proceed at a far faster pace than it would otherwise and the ultimate result is probably a done deal.

I will say that Treasury is playing the game extremely well. You have to be impressed at how well they are setting this up. Treasury is driving a hard but fair bargain. More like a hedge fund than a political entity.

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

#94 DonC said:

“Having said that, I’d agree with statik…”
=======================

/Ctrl PrtScn

(Quote)
Joe Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

We all know the big mystery about the Volt is the motor/generator set. If GM has a superior design of recharging the battery and wants to keep the technology secretive for now, I think it’s a good idea to demonstrate the car only in the electric mode only. The noise is just a minor detail that can easily be taken cared of.

(Quote)
RB Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

#72 DonC said
“#42 RB – Good points about the build. Fisker will let us know just how important this step is. To meet its deadline, Fisker is skipping vehicle integration testing and going straight to production. ”
=================

Thanks for that information — I had not realized that Fisker intends to go that route. That means their initial sales will be of a model that is really something of a prototype. I think they will regret making that choice, as it means that Fisker will be for years dealing with customer problems (whether large or small) that Fisker easily could have prevented.

GM is doing things the right way in having an integration phase. Doing that will allow a much better Volt to come out the door as the production model.

(Quote)
kgurnsey Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

@ DonC # 94

I was never concerned either, being an engineer myself (and having worked on prototype development) I can understand that ongoing tweaks are just ongoing tweaks. Nothing catastrophic here. You get it working first, then you spend until the end of time tweaking it to make it perfect. Integration vehicles aren’t finished products either, thier purpose is to get all the parts together, as they have been developed thus far (which is to say largely complete) to further tweak. Minor changes will be made, to be sure. With a system as complex as a modern automobile, the devil is always in the details.

Business people often have to pry a product from an engineer’s claws to get it to market. The engineer will be screaming “It’s not finished yet!”, and managment screaming “It’s good enough already! Just get it to market so we can sell it!”, and the engineer screams “but we can make it better!”, and management saying “Save it for Gen 2!”, and so on.

I may be imbellishing a bit, but not much.

When Chelsea says he admits “sheepishly” that the problem is that “you can hear it”, I have little doubt the engineers are all wringing thier hands trying to get it as quiet as possible. Solving a problem to perfection is a point of pride for many engineers.

This is the kind of thing engineers live for. If it ain’t broke, it just doesn’t have enough features yet!

(Quote)
Tall Pete Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

#94 DonC :

I think it’s different than this. (…) There is the question of whether something is “good enough”. But there is also the question of how much better you think it can be.
————————————————————————————————————————–
In a rational perspective, you are perfectly right. But I don’t think it’s only a rational matter we are dealing with here.

I’m a teacher. Lately, I had to teach in the context of a short activity of 3 hours. I wasn’t very satisfied of the way things went during the activity and I said so to my director. She was expecting the worst when time came to compile the evaluation sheets.

It turned out that the participants were very satisfied of my teaching and gave me a score of 94%. My director was delighted because it was way above the average.

Nevertheless, I wasn’t satisfied. Cause I knew I could have done better, given a little more time to prepare.

If Frank Weber is anything like me, he will say that “it’s not ready” as long as he believes there is a gain reachable in the time frame he has.

They are not only creating a car, the are trying to recover their pride.

(Quote)
RB Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

#99 kguernsey said
I was never concerned either, being an engineer myself (and having worked on prototype development) I can understand that ongoing tweaks are just ongoing tweaks. Nothing catastrophic here. You get it working first, then you spend until the end of time tweaking it to make it perfect. Integration vehicles aren’t finished products either, thier purpose is to get all the parts together, as they have been developed thus far (which is to say largely complete) to further tweak. Minor changes will be made, to be sure. With a system as complex as a modern automobile, the devil is always in the details.
————————————————–

If they have had good luck, this situation is the one they will find when they finish the first integration vehicle. Sometimes you find something much worse, such as all the electrical and ICE engine parts cannot quite fit into the available space because of a small brace that was absolutely essential to body integrity, or something like that, requiring a major redesign even though it was oh so close. That would be terrible.

It is more likely that they will find some things that are in between — sensors that do not actually work right with the display, windshield wipers that stop for 10 seconds after the electrical bump that happens when the ICE goes off, two big electrical cables that absolutely must pass through the same small opening. These are things that really don’t work, but that can be fixed, but with some effort required to get them done because the problem comes from some combination of elements, each of which is fine by itself.

That is, I hope they have only tweaking and polishing, as that would be a great situation to be in a month from now. Realistically until some integration vehicles are built and tested, one does not know. More likely there will be some serious problems that occur, and then a way will be found to fix them. It will be done, but it will take a while to identify the issue, make a remediation plan, and do it.

(Quote)
Monroe Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

i don’t mind if it purrs

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

Static @ 96 says…

#94 DonC said:

“Having said that, I’d agree with statik…”
=======================

/Ctrl PrtScn

—————————————————-

Ahahaha.

Where’d you learn to be so funny?!!! LOL!

(Quote)
Shock Me Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

#92

Jason S

How awesome would it be to not have to fill up more than once a month, or even longer?
_________

It feels really good. I average about 1 tank a month from just commuting. I actually spend more on mobile broadband than I do on gas. Of course I use that to plan or avoid needless trips, track the weather and fuel prices, and get movie times. It would be interesting to see what savings per month could be had on rent if I lived farther away from work.

(Quote)
Luke Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

k-dawg @ 74,

wouldn’t it be cheaper/easier to just put a headphone jack in the seat and give the driver a set of headphones (or go the wireless route)? Each passenger could listen to their own station/mp3/whatever. And you could put a mic on the headset for handsfree phone calls.

That’s pretty much what they do in general aviation airplanes. I have a set of noise canceling headphones that plug into the cockpit intercom and the radios. As an added bonus, my earphones will mix in the output from an MP3 player or a cell phone. (It’s handy to be able to call Flight Services on the ground, and the cell phone can be a radio-of-last-resort, if you dial ATC’s phone number.) This system works pretty well. I don’t know how loud a GA cockpit happens to be, but I’ve used my aviation headset for hearing protection when using power tools, and also at the shooting range.

But, here’s the problem. Setting up to fly a small airplane is an involved process. It’s supposed to take at least 15 minutes to preflight a rental airplane — from the walk around, to releasing the tie-downs, to getting everyone strapped in, getting headsets on, and finally starting the engine. Even the last step that I mentioned (starting the engine) is fairly involved: “master switch on, avionics master off, carburetor heat cold, mixture rich/right, throttle 1/8″, prime, clear-prop, crank, start, avionics master on, radio-check, and finally start thinking about moving the airplane.

I love general aviation airplanes. And some compensation must be made for the fact that most of them are 1950s technology, due to for the bizarre legal and economic environment in which they operate… But even I don’t want to make starting a car any more complicated than necessary.

-Luke

P.S. Yes, like any good aviation geek, I do have an engine-start checklist for the cars that I drive. But it’s a lot simpler than the one for an airplane.

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

#90 k-dawg

The article didn’t mention it. But as far as I can tell, the secured bondholders and the unsecured have been treated differently all along. Probably because GM might be worth more than 6 billion in a liquidation.

In other news, another group of bondholders with about 30% of the remaining bonds are negotiating with treasury.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/business/29auto.html?hp

And apparently, this is in addition to 15% who took the original deal.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&refer=home&sid=aXUBStY4SSeg

So, it looks like they may be able to come to some agreement with the majority of the bondholders, which is crucial in terms of expediting the bankruptcy proceedings.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

105 Luke
I’m glad someone read between my lines. I figured nasaman would mention a space shuttle cock-pit, which is what i was thinking of when i typed that.

Where CJS when u need him…

(Quote)
CDAVIS Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

______________________________________________________
Chelsea Sexton,
Thanks for remaining a strong EV advocate and having the professional integrity to be open minded and even handed in evaluating the Voltec Program.
______________________________________________________

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

Here’s a funny idea that might be helpful.
You know the proverbial joke about fixing a noise in a car?
To turn up the radio?,
Well how about a consideration to advance the power output of the genset based on how much normally-occurring cabin noise there is.
If you happen to be driving with the AC fan blasting, or the Radio volume turned up, or the window open (not aerodynamic however), you might consider having a microphone in the cabin near the driver to advance the power curve a bit to the point where the PCM is actually listening to how much perceivable additional noise is being introduced to the passenger cabin.
Turn the radio up and fix the problem.
That would be a funny “noise cancellation” strategy that might be cheap and actually work, putting the horse before the cart again.
Dan Petit. Austin TX

(Quote)
CDAVIS Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

______________________________________________________
Another BYD deal in the works?

Ford Considers partnership With BYD on Electric Vehicles:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1021045_ford-considers-partnership-with-byd-to-collaborate-on-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles

I wonder if Wang Chuan-FU’s, CEO of BYD, stunt of drinking battery fluid helped BYD get the attention of the big guys:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/14/wang-chuan-fu-byds-ceo-drinks-battery-fluid-to-prove-a-point/
______________________________________________________

(Quote)
CDAVIS Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

______________________________________________________
Follow up to #110 CDAVIS:

Here is a better battery fluid drinking link than one I used above:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1020092_byd-ceo-drinks-battery-fluid-from-companys-own-environmentally-friendly-battery
______________________________________________________

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Sexton

Youtube (w/the 2007 concept. There’s some good ones in here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PKaV_Y6d3s

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

EV sound vs blind people:

My father was blinded in his early 20s. By the time I came along, his hearing was nothing short of astonishing (I quickly learned how little I could get away with as a little boy).

I well remember a particular instance: sitting in a crowded department store, surrounded by the babble of voices and other noises. Suddenly, out of the blue, my dad laughed. When I asked why, he told me that something funny had been said in one conversation way across the room. There must have been 150 people within sight of me.

He often told me that, compared to people who had been blind from birth, he was almost deaf. He knew of one such person who could tell if there was piano in any house he visited. That is, with no one playing it.

Don’t ever sell the blind short; their other senses make up for sight in ways most people can’t appreciate.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

#87 N Riley,

“I know I would want to keep things under wraps as long as I could, if it were me doing the engineering and building something like the Volt. Competitors are measuring and weighing every word that comes out of GM’s mouth as well as what others are saying about the Volt.”

I agree. If GM wasn’t onto something really big, they wouldn’t be cancelling other programs, yet devoting more resources to the Volt.

From my post #34, it appears to me that GM will do better than 50 mpg in charge sustaining mode. If they are using a 6 gallon tank (that was the minimum stated the other day) for their numbers, then that fits with some released figures of 300 miles additional range in CS mode (50 mpg). However, based on the 6 gallons and 400 miles in CS mode from Troy Clarke’s speech, this could be 67 mpg!

So when I see a video of Greg Ceisel saying that GM is meeting all its performance targets for the Volt, this says they are actually meeting or EXCEEDING those numbers.

So let the competition guess by how much they are exceeding the numbers.

(Quote)
Jason S Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

#104 Shock Me:

I’m jealous.
Even averaging 32-34 mpg in my Fit, and driving under 40 miles 5 days a week with some extra driving on weekends, I still find myself filling up every 8 or 9 days.

Volt’s definately on my short list of future cars, eventually. Finally; an American vehicle that appeals to me!

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

Sound cancellation:

I think this is a possible Volt solution, if only because the technology was invented by Bose for the QuietComfort series of headphones: and Bose has been tapped to create an energy efficient radio for the Volt.

I have a pair of these headphones. Early on, I tried them in my backyard with no input connected; suddenly, I could hear birds singing where I hadn’t heard them before. The low-frequency cancellation hushed the traffic roar and airplane buzz to the point I could hear other sounds more clearly.

Noise cancellation as it stands today is effective over relatively narrow ranges; as #9 suggests, so is the likely sound output if a genset. I don’t know if they would exactly follow nasaman’s model or not, but I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t something that could be done.

As for headphones, I believe in most States it is illegal for the driver to wear them (with the exception of cellphone earpieces).

(Quote)
MarkinWI Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

And rationality kicked in for the bondholders…

“‘…rejecting this offer in the expectation that the bondholders will do better in a litigated outcome was a risk the Committee is unwilling to take’ the group said in a statement.”

Too bad that it was too little and too late to avoid bankruptcy entirely. I hope the plan is well crafted so that bankruptcy goes smoothly. I’m not holding my breath, though.

(Quote)
CDAVIS Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

______________________________________________________
Electric Car Revolution Gold Rush:

China aims to lead the electric car revolution:
http://autonews.gasgoo.com/auto-news/1010289/China-aims-to-lead-the-electric-car-revolution.html

Countries around the Globe going for the EV GOLD:
http://www.globe-net.com/other_news/listing.cfm?type=2&newsID=4081#top
______________________________________________________

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

U.S. officials to explain auto policies in Midwest

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — Members of President Barack Obama’s Cabinet will fan out across the Midwest next week to explain the White House’s efforts to rescue the auto industry, the White House said Thursday. Officials will visit Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Wisconsin from June 2-5, the White House said. The tour will begin a day after the June 1 deadline for General Motors Corp.to submit a viability plan. But bankruptcy appears likely and White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Thursday that Obama will “presumably” speak about the company on Monday.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

Aren’t there about 1 million blind people in the US? That’s 1 out of 300, or 0.3% Dont they have dogs, people, or other sound signals already helping them? How about the 1million deaf people in the US? What about people that can’t move fast? What about any other disablility you can think of?

I feel we are making an issue out of something that we shouldnt be.

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

N Riley (#89):
BillR (#114):

I too believe that the Volt will get far better mileage in charge-sustaining mode than GM is letting on.

I was telling my uncle 30+ years ago (he worked for GM at the time), that someone ought to make a car which operated much like a non-plugin, range-extended-only Volt: use electricity to move the car and tap the engine only to provide the average electrical power requirement (this is one reason I was initially so interested in the Volt concept).

Of course, there was no battery at the time which would make such a car possible, and I make no claim that my uncle ever bounced my idea ‘upstairs.’

Nevertheless, I was amazed when I heard 50mpg given as the Volt’s post-battery-depletion fuel economy. Having thought about this piece of the idea for years, I couldn’t believe that it would be this low for a car that size.

statik (#13):

“[Frank Weber] didn’t say, “We are keeping [ICE performance issues] a super secret, so as not to tip off our competition … He said it is not ready.”

What else would anyone expect him to say if he was “keeping it a super secret, so as not to tip off our competition?” Wouldn’t that very admission tip off the competition?

Yes friends, I have a conspiracy theory; but it’s a positive one: I think we are in for a great surprise.

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

#114 BillR says:

“I agree. If GM wasn’t onto something really big, they wouldn’t be cancelling other programs, yet devoting more resources to the Volt.”

—-
As much as I’d love to believe this, I really think that GM’s devoting resources to the Volt right now has more to do with its political popularity than anything else.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

I want to say this directly to GM (I know some of you are reading this blog – and you should be): I LIVE IN CENTRAL MISSISSIPPI. THIS WOULD BE A GREAT PLACE TO TEST ONE OF THE INTEGRATION VEHICLES OR PRODUCTION INTENT VEHICLES EARLY NEXT YEAR OR WHENEVER. I VOLUNTEER TO TEST ONE FOR YOU AND WILL BE ABLE TO DEVOTE A GOOD BIT OF MY TIME TO THE TESTING AND PROPER RECORD KEEPING. I SHOULD BE RETIRED BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR AND WILL BE READY, WILLING AND ABLE. SO JUST ASK LYLE DENNIS FOR MY EMAIL ADDRESS AND I WILL COME RUNNING.

Otherwise, I continue to wish GM all the luck in the world.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

122 LauraM Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:16 pm .
#114 BillR says:

“I agree. If GM wasn’t onto something really big, they wouldn’t be cancelling other programs, yet devoting more resources to the Volt.”

—-
As much as I’d love to believe this, I really think that GM’s devoting resources to the Volt right now has more to do with its political popularity than anything else.
=========

You forget to mention the CAFE too.

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

Voltec will be a set of completely finished and perfected product lines. I don’t think that there will be any further testing needed beyond what has already been done, and, what is going on now. These are the reasons we patiently wait, for the perfected results, and they are coming soon enough.
But we must work hard to be ready for it. It will cost more, but be worth every cent. At least if we are not yet financially-ready for Gen 1, then it was meant to be that we are to work harder-still to be in time for Gen 2.
Either way, we will have our Voltec vehicles when it is our time to have them.
Dan Petit Austin TX

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

#123 N Riley said:

I want to say this directly to GM (I know some of you are reading this blog – and you should be): I LIVE IN CENTRAL MISSISSIPPI. THIS WOULD BE A GREAT PLACE TO TEST ONE OF THE INTEGRATION VEHICLES OR PRODUCTION INTENT VEHICLES EARLY NEXT YEAR OR WHENEVER. I VOLUNTEER TO TEST ONE FOR YOU AND WILL BE ABLE TO DEVOTE A GOOD BIT OF MY TIME TO THE TESTING AND PROPER RECORD KEEPING. I SHOULD BE RETIRED BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR AND WILL BE READY, WILLING AND ABLE. SO JUST ASK LYLE DENNIS FOR MY EMAIL ADDRESS AND I WILL COME RUNNING.

Otherwise, I continue to wish GM all the luck in the world.
===================
You shouldn’t have said that…it is a well known fact that pensioners/retiress only possess the ability to drive Buick products from GM.

In a related matter…a person under 65 can drive any GM car, but if they do happen to sit in the driver’s seat of a Buick they instantly qualify to get a social security check, have lower back pain and develop arthritis in both knees.

(Quote)
GM Volt Fan Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

NASAMAN might like this news story I just came across since he lives in Florida. Battery manufacturer Saft might be coming to Florida.

“The plant would generate 800 jobs, according to the announcement. It would make lithium-ion cells and integrate batteries for a host of uses, including in military vehicles and aviation.”

http://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-05-28/story/saft_america_wants_to_build_200_million_plant_in_jacksonville

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

I was reading Design News magazine (the actual paper version) and saw they are aware of the shock absorbers that we talked about on this site a few times. I didnt know these guys partnered with Parker, which I like better than say.. Bosch.

http://www.designnews.com/article/231678-Shock_Absorbers_Boost_Fuel_Economy.php?rssid=20031&text=shock+absorbers

Design News also has a section on the Volt.. but its mostly dated news.

(Quote)
TeSLAP Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

“Tesla all grown up, first NHTSA recall announced”

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/28/tesla-all-grown-up-first-nhtsa-recall-announced/

So they are still just human. Growing pains.

(Quote)
CDAVIS Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

______________________________________________________
It’s sometimes fun to look back in time:

Time Capsul circa Sept 2007:

Toyota says Volt is “vaporware…. that Volt engineers are only able to get about 10 miles of pure electric range from current lithium-ion batteries…”
Source:
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/21/toyota-defends-its-defense-of-parallel-hybrids/

“[Toyota’s] Miller accused GM of using “hyperbole” to overstate the benefits of the technology, and advised customers who want a series hybrid to “cross their fingers and wait.””
Source:
http://www.hybridcars.com/plug-in-hybrids/gm-toyota-hybrid-future-faceoff.html

“In those early days of hybrids, Toyota marketers felt compelled to portray charging up your car via the electric grid as an evil to be avoided.”
Source:
http://www.hybridcars.com/news2/toyota-plugin-hybrid-2010.html
______________________________________________________

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

Hybrid Honda Fit will come 18 months early — in Japan:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1021046_honda-fit-hybrid-coming-18-months-ahead-of-schedule-new-release-date-fall-2010

It seems to many here (including myself) that Toyota is mainly at war with GM over hybrid technology. Meanwhile, Honda seems determined to topple Toyota from it’s ‘king of the hybrids’ perch.

(Quote)
GM Volt Fan Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

Speaking of “Prius quiet”, I hope GM can come up a car to compete with the 2010 Prius …. SOON … in the $20,000-25,000 range. It looks like the new Prius is already a success.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=15248

GM isn’t the only company getting beat by Toyota and Honda in hybrids these days. The German auto companies are in catch up mode with hybrid technology too. It looks like Ford might have a winner with the 2010 Ford Focus hybrid though. GM better get their “2 mode hybrid” into some smaller $20K vehicles that get 50 mpg soon. Does GM have a “power split hybrid” technology in the works that is similar to the Prius?

Either that, or figure out how to get the price of the Volt’s battery down even more. A $27,000 (after tax credits) 100+ mpg Volt would look pretty darned compelling to customers in 2011 … especially if it is getting rave reviews by the automotive press, Consumer Reports, JD Power, etc.

(Quote)
Anthony BC Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

“The range extender is there for less than 20% of the public’s driving needs and many people will never use it at all except perhaps in cases of emergency.”

Lyle, can you ask/confirm that if one never fills the gas tank and only uses the VOLT in pure electric only mode that the VOLT will perform as expected/implied. – Just making sure that I won’t have to fill the gas tank to be used for battery conditioning or any pre-heating issues. That the VOLT display screen will NEVER NEVER NEVER say pull over and refill gas tank.

Thx! GO EV!

(Quote)
ThombDbhomb Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

If I get a Volt, will it still function if I remove the ICE?

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

133, 134…

Guys… if you really want a BEV then buy one. There are a few nice and very expensive ones or a bunch of cheap ones that look like kit cars. (Which is absolutely fine if that’s what you want.) Why in hell would you buy an expensive integrated electric car that has your back and then rip it to pieces?

Running the engine every couple of weeks when Anthony drives to Whistler will make it work having it there in the first place. ThombDbhomb, maybe a volt just isn’t for you.

It certainly could be for me though when 3-4 days a week I wouldn’t use any gas while getting my stuff done. This could make the 1000awesomethings web site!

(Quote)
LauraM Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:24 pm

#131 Jackson

Toyota has plenty to worry about. Honda’s competing with them on the hybrid front. Hyundai, and now the Chinese/Indian automakers are trying to do to them what they did to GM and Ford.

The US seems determined to print its way out of debt, with negative implications for the dollar. (China’s currently limiting itself to short term treasuries.) And the US auto market in general seems unlikely to make a full recovery any time in the near future. I doubt it will stay at the current level for much longer, but I don’t see 17 million a year anytime soon. And that means they are stuck with overcapacity–not good news for any automaker.

Their upside in China is limited. GM’s actually doing a lot better than them there. But I think that any non-domestic automaker’s long term prospects in China are very limited. At some point, the government will intervene.

Couple that with an increasingly limited domestic auto market, and Toyota’s got serious problems. Regardless of GM and Ford.

(Quote)
DonC Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

#96 statik

Very funny. Or today should that be “Vewy Funny”?

You do know of course that I agree with you at least 80% of the time. Just not about the Volt! (Only kidding only kidding — mostly that too).

#134 TombDbhomb asks “If I get a Volt, will it still function if I remove the ICE?”

Yes. This is nasaman’s point about the safety of having two propulsion systems. The car will run if either the battery or the ICE fails. Why you’d want to remove the ICE is a different question.

#130 CDAVIS — Very interesting retrospective. Nice post.

(Quote)
dorp7 Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

#126 statik,

You’re on a roll today. Funny stuff. I actually owned and drove a Buick Century as my first car in college. It was kinda a hand-me-down from my dad. Comfortable, yes. I remember my girlfriend enjoyed the plush cloth fabric on the seats… ’nuff said.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

#126 Statik

Sorry, but I don’t presently own a Buick, but did own a 1967 Buick Wildcat Convertible and don’t plan to own a future Buick. When it comes to GM, it is Chevrolet all the way with me from now own. So, maybe I can still qualify.

(Quote)
Raphael Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

Tesla recall.

SAN CARLOS, Calif., May 28, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) — Tesla Motors has launched a safety recall covering all 345 Tesla Roadsters manufactured before April 22, 2009.

(Quote)
Lwesson Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

There is nothing to stop good sound engineers to assist in a more easy to the ear ICE sound that is natural to the various changes in speed. It would also seem that it would be to some advantage to have the ICE be at an rpm that while it is more or less constant in rpm during most settings that the ICE also help charge the 30% remaining battery just a bit so that the battery can assist in leveling out the ICE in rapidly changing speeds. How odd this car will sound to the driver of an ICE machine if such provisions are ignored.

I think that there is a natural human need to be connected to the, ah, Farfenugen experience. Did I spell that right VW fans? Besides, you should give the waskully Rabbit a little varning, nein?

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

#137 DonC said:

#96 statik, Very funny. Or today should that be “Vewy Funny”?

You do know of course that I agree with you at least 80% of the time. Just not about the Volt! (Only kidding only kidding — mostly that too).
——————
Hehe, I know we agree a lot Don. We just like to make a big production out of it when we don’t agree, so it seems more frequent, lol.

/all good
============================
#139 N Riley said:

#126 Statik, Sorry, but I don’t presently own a Buick, but did own a 1967 Buick Wildcat Convertible and don’t plan to own a future Buick. When it comes to GM, it is Chevrolet all the way with me from now own. So, maybe I can still qualify.
————-
You know I was just funnin’ with you too…I’m feeling the whimsy today for some reason.

For the record, I fully support your cause of ‘bringing a test Volt to Mississippi’…after all you need something to drive down to the mall for a big day of keeping your eye on the local ‘hooligans’

/hikes up pants

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

Of interest (…and it is late in the thread):

GM Said to Plan June 1 Bankruptcy as Debt Plan Gains

“May 28 (Bloomberg) — General Motors Corp., the world’s largest automaker until its 77-year reign ended in 2008, plans to file for bankruptcy protection on June 1 and sell most of its assets to a new company, people familiar with the matter said.

GM’s path will be smoothed by an accord today giving some of its biggest bondholders an equity stake in the reorganized automaker. The U.S. Treasury is requiring that an unspecified percentage of debt holders accept the terms by 5 p.m. New York time on May 30, Detroit-based GM said in a regulatory filing.

“If bondholders agree to this up front, this would essentially be a prepackaged bankruptcy,” said Shelly Lombard, an analyst with New York-based bond-research firm Gimme Credit LLC. “GM could exit Chapter 11 faster.”

The bankruptcy probably would last 60 to 90 days, said an Obama administration official who asked not to be identified because the talks are private. The Treasury will finance the trip through bankruptcy with about $50 billion, which includes $19.4 billion in current borrowing, GM said in a statement.

GM’s bankruptcy will be the third-biggest in U.S. history after Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. and WorldCom Inc., based on GM’s reported global assets of $91 billion and total liabilities of $176.4 billion as of Dec. 31. Chrysler, which sought court protection on April 30, listed assets of $39 billion.

Going to court would end the suspense for GM, which said it expected to declare bankruptcy after failing to get enough support for a debt-for-equity exchange on $27.2 billion in unsecured bonds.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=av6aV2soJRn8&refer=home

(Quote)
RB Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 5:46 pm

#126 statik said
You shouldn’t have said that…it is a well known fact that pensioners/retiress only possess the ability to drive Buick products from GM.
——————————

It is amazing how universal that stereotype has become. I have a Buick, and I’m not retired. The Buick is a car I love because it is quite quiet (can’t even hear the ICE), it is smooth, and (get this) it has amazingly high acceleration. No one passes me unless I let them

But I can’t buy a new Buick because of the stereotype That is, my wife and children believe so strongly that anything Buick is only for the very old that they won’t let me. Well, I suppose they couldn’t actually stop me, but there is certainly no support there.

GM has truly mis-managed this brand and damaged it greatly. The history of Buick is the history of luxury but also racing cars, fast, quiet, smooth.

The good part happens when the highway patrolman sees a number on his radar and then looks up and sees the car. Then he says to himself “what’s wrong with this radar?”

(Quote)
RB Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 5:55 pm

#124 k-dawg said
You forget to mention the CAFE too.
———————————

If anyone here knows how CAFE will work, I hope you will explain it here, or give a link. Looking around, I seem to find a lot of complex statements, such as “What is set is not mpg but CO2 emissions.” and “The amount of CO2 emission allowed is proportional to the footprint of the vehicle, defined as the area of the rectangle formed on the ground by where the 4 wheels touch.” and “More CO2 emission is allowed if offsets in terms of other environmental benefits can be obtained, as by better air conditioning.”

So in CAFE, I no longer understand how the rule relates to C, A, F, or E.
Really.

(Quote)
old man Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 5:56 pm

I will be surprised if the I C E sound is a problem while driving. I think the noise problem is when it first starts after you have spent many days of driving in EV mode. It is hard to hide an UNUSUAL noise, like the I C E starting while we are starting in to a sharp curve and we are slowing down.The thought “what the he11 was that” goes thru the brain. Simple fix, a calm recorded voice saying the generator will start now would do the trick.

(Quote)
Tom Harwick Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:18 pm

If GM can get the price of the Volt down to $29k without rebate, then the Volt will be Prius quiet.

If the price stays at $40k, it will be Edsel quiet.

(Quote)
Bryan Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:34 pm

I drive a Prius and plan on trading it in when I buy my Volt. I can hear my Prius engine start and stop and it doesn’t bother me one bit.

(Quote)
kdawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:46 pm

BUICK

Don’t knock it. They have some pretty nice cars. “Not your Granpa’s Buick”

Check out the 2010 Lacrosse
http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/2010_buick_lacrosse_1.jpg

(Quote)
kdawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:52 pm

RB

Here’s the Wiki on CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy)
My ‘guess’ on the Volt is somehow they are going to have to come up with some kind of MPG rating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy

(Quote)
kdawg Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 8:54 pm

BUICK

I forgot to mention the Enclave too. If i was going to buy a crossover, that would be it.

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Buick/buick_enclave_manu-08-06-800.jpg

(Quote)
Anthony BC Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:24 am

#135 – MuddyRoverRob – Just making sure that the “negative press” doesn’t hurt the VOLT in the sense that one camp says “it will never use gas” and the other camp says “the cycle the engine on & off when required”.Theses two camps exist on this site!

I’d rather the info on this site be correct for newbies & all rather than misleading, otherwise GM will hear the BAD news once people realize the VOLT will use gas occasionally – not NEVER. Get the point.

Don’t get me wrong, I like having the VOLT use gas in an emergency or if I have to travel more than 40 miles in a day, especially when I travel to Whistler!

(Quote)
kubel Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:14 am

I completely understand GMs desire to not have the media experience the engine. Burning gas and making noise is the least desirable thing about this car. These are PR events, after all. How many of us will get excited when the genset kicks in. I for one will probably let out a sigh every time it happens.

But that won’t be a problem, since I won’t be able to afford the Volt anyway. Looks like I’ll be going with a Ford Fiesta.

GM really needs to work on cutting costs on the Volt without destroying what it is. It is an aggressively styled, good performance, domestically produced, 40-mile all-electric-range, 4-door, extended range electric vehicle. Make it for $27,000 or really hope for expensive gas. Because if this thing is not competitively priced, the turning on of the genset will not be its biggest disappointment.

(Quote)
koz Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:38 am

Old Man #146

Exactly, my $ is with you.

(Quote)
koz Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 6:44 am

Since the discussion has evolved to include Buick. Some ideas:

-Move G6 over
-Consider G8 w/ 2nd Gen 160-180KW Voltec
-Upgraded Sky for $5-10k more

(Quote)
Shock Me Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 7:41 am

#155 Koz

A Le Ciel Roadster with Voltec Drivetrain?

I love it!

(Quote)
omegaman66 Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:07 am

I think they haven’t allowed extended range mode test drives by outside people is beause they don’t want people writing about that aspect of the car so that emphasis wil have to be placed on the car as an EV in contrast to the prius.

(Quote)
SteveK9 Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 8:18 am

#121 Jackson

I think you will see amazing mileage in the next generation Volt. There have been comments here in the past from GM that the ICE in the Volt was picked ‘off the rack’. The next generation engine (according to GM, forget who exactly) will be under 1000 cc, and greatly simplified. As you say, with a battery buffer the ICE needs only supply the average energy requirement. I’ve always thought a small turbine would be ideal, but I guess they are too expensive.

(Quote)
Shock Me Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:02 am

#158 SteveK9
I’ve always thought a small turbine would be ideal, but I guess they are too expensive.

_________

A small turbine would be awesome if they could solve the bearing issue for the one part moving very very fast.

For power weight and volume it is a good solution but I suspect the cost is related to the number of hours on the turbine and the failure rate that would have to be tolerated to bring the vehicle to market at a reasonable price.

(Quote)
EVO Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 9:41 am

#158 and #159

I thought the last time that turbines were considered for automobiles they were rejected due to poor fuel efficiency. What’s changed?

How do small diesels (say, a VW Jetta TDI powerplant) look for generator fuel efficiency, when tuned for such?

(Quote)
Mark Z Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

#126 – statik

Right on! Back in the 70’s if a bad driver in California was on the road, it seemed to me they either wore a hat or drove a Buick.

Returning to sound: I drove a SRX in 2nd the other day at 3500 rpm @ 35 mph. Not a pleasant sound experience. If the VOLT reaches 5600 rpm, I can understand why GM refused to demo the ICE.

(Quote)
koz Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 10:04 pm

Shock Me #159

I think foil bearings can be reliable, but turbine costs need o be brought down. On the hand, turbines haven’t been built in the mass qty that the auto market sees. Perhaps volume would costs down enough.

(Quote)
Ed M Says:
June 9th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

Great article as usual Lyle. A second drive is always more meaningful than a first drive with the novelty slightly behind you. Because you enjoyed the second drive so much it should give confidence for the Volt to others. I’m really looking forward to getting a Volt.
With a new state of the art R&D battery plant and a well designed Volt, it’ll be brighter skies ahead for GM.

(Quote)
evchels Says:
June 26th, 2009 at 11:52 am

I think that once GM gets their feet wet with the Volt, there will be definite opportunities for other versions, including perhaps a “Volt light”, whether it come in the Volt body (w a smaller battery pack) or a Cruze or other small car.

I do have some concerns about going too low in the range department in the early PHEV/EREV years, esp for the companies doing blended range. The market will ultimately have to parse where that point is. I’m not wild about the 7-mile PHEV Prius, for example, that a few universities are testing. USA Today test drove the car and got 4 real world miles out of it. Unless there is basically cost parity with the regular Prius for such a thing, consumers are not going to perceive enough value to make it worth the incremental cost. In turn, this could reflect poorly not just on that product, but the technology in general, esp as Toyota is perceived (for now) as the hybrid leader- “if Toyota can’t make a good PHEV…”

We’ve learned through experience that PH/EV drivers are not as pragmatic as many assume them to be, and there has always been an emotional component to vehicle purchasing. But consumers do have to have a sense of value about whatever it is they’re paying more for, even if it’s not economic value.

(Quote)

Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts

Chrysler dismantles electric car plans under Fiat November 7, 2009
DETROIT (Reuters) - Chrysler has disbanded a team of engineers dedicated to rushing a range of electric vehicles to showrooms and dropped ambitious... […]
Texas
First Solar buys 117 MW project from solar startup Ausra November 7, 2009
First Solar buys 117 MW project from solar startup Ausra: _Link_ (http://www.reuters.com/article/mergersNews/idUSN046821420091105) Given that water... […]
Jason M. Hendler
True believers swamp Fisker opening November 7, 2009
True believers swamp Fisker opening _Link_ (http://www.autonews.com/article/20091106/ANA05/911069996/1137) Can you imagine what the roll-out of the... […]
Jason M. Hendler
Zero Motorcycles Announces Consumer Financing November 7, 2009
Zero Motorcycles Announces Consumer Financing: _Link_ (http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1037942_zero-motorcycles-announces-consumer-financing) […]
Jason M. Hendler
LeRoy1974 November 6, 2009
Does the Volt have a trunk in which we can put groceries or a couple of golf bags? All the photos and drawings of the Volt look like it was in an... […]
LeRoy1974
Embrace technology to turn nuclear energy into environmental solution November 6, 2009
From the Seattle Times: "STEWART Brand, author of "The Whole Earth Catalog," visited Seattle last week, promoting his latest environmental manifesto... […]
misslexi
Lutz to Head Opel November 6, 2009
Der Spiegel reports that Lutz is going to head up Opel: Spiegel Online(link)... […]
dagwood55

Chevy Volt Mule in Generator Mode Already ‘Prius Quiet’

164 Responses to “Chevy Volt Mule in Generator Mode Already ‘Prius Quiet’”

Leave a Reply

Recent Posts

Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts