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Assembly of the First True Chevy Volt Integration Vehicles Begins Today

May 27th, 2009 | Posted in: Production, Prototypes

Exactly nine weeks ago we were shown a countdown clock in front of the office of Andrew Farah, the Chevy Volt’s chief engineer. That countdown clock was clicking off the days until the start of the first Chevy Volt integration vehicle build. The integration vehicle, or IVer, is an actual full functioning Chevy Volt with authentic exterior, interior, and powertrain. It is in effect, fully production intent.

Today is the day says Andrew, “We will start general assembly build, what that means is the body in white comes out of the body shop and is positioned at the beginning of this pre-production assembly line over at the Warren Tech center. The whistle blows, all the parts are in line, and they start doing it.”

“The first ones go very slowly (and) we call them template builds and they take about 2 weeks,” he says. “Eventually we’ll be able to crank them out at ten a week.”

“My goal is for forth of July to be driving more than one,” he says.

GM expects to build over 100 of these integration vehicles before moving to the next stage which are known as validation cars. Those will be assembled in gradually increasing quantities on the actual assembly line at the Detroit-Hamtramck plant in 2010, eventually ramping into the actual saleable production cars.

So despite imminent bankruptcy of General Motors, Volt development goes on.

“The IVer build begins, on-time, today in the general assembly area of our Pre-Production Operations (PPO) in Warren,” confirms GM spokesperson Rob Peterson. “The team’s excited to get the build started, but there’s not much time to celebrate – the journey doesn’t end until Volts are rolling onto dealer lots late next year.”

Thanks to Jim and Mary S for the above photo of the Trasformers Volt they found at the Indy 500.

Posted by: Lyle

141 Responses to “Assembly of the First True Chevy Volt Integration Vehicles Begins Today”

Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:01 am

First

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:05 am

Good luck to the Volt team. The whole world (except for Toyota) is cheering you on.

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SteveK Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:09 am

We might hear (slightly) less talk that they will never get it done.

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SteveK Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:13 am

There’s no time to waste:

Volkswagen and BYD sign memorandum of understanding
Partnership in the area of electric mobility to be explored

During an informational visit by the Chinese carmaker BYD “Build Your Dreams” – led by the Chairman of the Board of Management, Wang Chuanfu – a memorandum of understanding was signed last week by Mr Wang and Dr Winterkorn.
…..
Afterwards, the Chairman of the Board of Management of Volkswagen AG, Dr Martin Winterkorn, and the Chairman of the Board of Management of BYD, Wang Chuanfu, signed a memorandum of understanding. The objective of signing a memorandum of understanding between Volkswagen and BYD is to explore the options for partnership in the area of hybrids and electric vehicles powered by lithium batteries.

http://www.volkswagenag.com/vwag/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2009/05/volkswagen_and_byd_sign_memorandum_of_understanding.html

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BillR Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:13 am

#2 Jason,

Thanks for the early morning laugh.

It will be great to see videos of these cars driving around, knowing they represent the true essence of the Volt.

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Kevin R Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:19 am

Glad to see this milestone arrive. As soon as GM allows, I want to put down my deposit.

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Bearclaw Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:23 am

I’m ready just to see some different colors of the Volt.

I’m also willing to put down a deposit as soon as GM allows. I’m not sure how well that would work though if I put 500 down and then the dealer gets shut down.

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koz Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:24 am

Below is my comment waay down on yesterday’s thread, but it is worth reposting the link:

“For those getting despondent about GM and the results on the Volt program, you should read this mule test drive pick-me-up:

http://evchels.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/poker-faces/

Hopefully this brings a little excitement and anticipation back to the project for Volt fans.”

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koz Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:28 am

Eventhough this comment from my link at #8 is from an EV enthusiast, it is the only one I’ve seen about why the range extending mode has been shown off yet.

“I persisted, assuring him I’m familiar with pre-production systems, but he remained stoic, until I finally pinned him- “what is so wrong with this car that you won’t let anyone drive it with the engine on?” He paused, and admitted almost sheepishly, “well, when the engine comes on, you can hear it.” I kept waiting for more, but that was it-the big mystery… you can hear the engine. I started to note how that would be, oh, I don’t know, standard for an internal combustion engine in any car and that some people prefer it that way, but I was chastened by my own admiration for the position he took. While there’s absolutely a point where you have to stop engineering and start building, Frank’s statement is indicative of the attention to detail being paid to the Volt.”

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FME III Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:37 am

Thanks, #9 Koz, for supply grist for today’s mill. “You can hear it.” Now we can all speculate on what that means — you can hear it A LOT? A little?

It still seems that a detail like that — “you can hear it” — qualifies as a minor thing that could be explained during preview drives as one of the things they’re still working on.

Maybe GM’s refusal to let preview drivers experience this transition is indicative of how conscious GM is that they need to get the car absolutely RIGHT from the start, and they don’t want any mention of engine noise forming a lingering first imnpression in the minds of the public.

But that’a a silver-lining guess.

Glad to hear the IVs are on sched.

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nuclearboy Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:37 am

“First true Chevy Volt” integration vehicle but we still don’t know the size of the gas tank….

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charlie h Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:38 am

How big is the gas tank in these production intent vehicles?

What else has GM not quite yet decided?

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nuclearboy Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:39 am

Engines can be pretty quiet in Modern cars. GM has been covering their engines in plastic and sound dampners for years.

Engine noise is not going to be a big deal in the volt.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:41 am

I don’t like the blue color in the Volt picture above. Not sure why, but I think it somehow covers the lines and curves of the car.

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iRoc Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:46 am

Thanks for the update Lyle,

It’s time to polish up the GM-Volt.com wait list !

Geographic diversity is probably a good thing for maximum exposure across North America.

I’m hoping GM recognizes this, supports us early bloggers, and sends the 88th production Volt to yours truly in SW Alberta Canada !

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FME III Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:46 am

As to the topic at hand today — building the IVs — again it raises a mystery about yesterday’s post on gas tank size.

#58 NASA- Eng talked about needed to fit the tank in around the other compenents. How the hell can they build a production intent IV and not know how big the gas tank is?

Jeez, somebody help me here. This just doesn’t pass the sniff test.

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StevePA Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:50 am

Another target hit along the timeline to sales. Continued good wishes and respect to the Volt team for dedication / focus in what must be a difficult environment.

#12 charlie h
Well, by their own accounting GM’s Volt mules took them to within 80% of the final vehicle. This fleet of 100 production intent testers should get the other 20%. Sitting here at 17 months or so before rollout, where would you expect a manufacturer to be with a totally new vehicle? You must be pretty heavily invested in Toyota (as an employee, salesperson, owner or whatever) to have such blind loyalty to one manufacturer. The Prius is decent fella, but it will soon be old school.

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BillR Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:56 am

#16 FME III,

I think “production intent” doesn’t necessarily mean “production final”.

There is still a great deal of road and systems testing left to do on these IV’s. Certain components, assemblies, software, etc. will be slightly modified to make the Volt smoother, quieter, or more efficient.

I’m sure as they build these vehicles, they will document the assembly process. The other focus for this car will be how it goes together, so some emphasis will also need to be on making the car ready for production on an assembly line.

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FME III Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:59 am

This is the next paragraph in the post Koz excerpted in #9:

“That said, some of the other folks working with the other mules found out we were there and “happened” to drive by a few times, in range extended mode- the thing is already Prius quiet. And because the generator operates within certain distinct “power bands” depending on the driver’s right foot (more power requested, higher the band- if the request is at the lower end of any band, the extra energy is fed back into the batteries) any detectable sound should directly correlate with attendant ambient and road noise.”

I recommended every Volt fan read the full post. It’s written by one who despises GM for what they did to the EV 1, is a bit of a skeptic, and yet came away from her test drive a true believer. It will help quell some of our doubts. And her parting words are spot on: In betting the future of the company on the Volt, GM is all in.

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Jim I Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:13 am

BillR #18: Agreed!

These first builds are intended to work out the kinks in the assembly process and make any final tweaks in the actual design before the car hardware hits “design freeze”.

Saying a car will lose 2 cubic feet of storage space to put in a bigger fuel tank does not sound like much on paper, but when focus groups start to actually see the smaller trunk space, it may be changed before the actual assembly of the vehicles we get to buy. And I am sure there may be some small changes made to improve handling and performance, etc.

But this is a giant step forward!

I think I can speak for most of us when I say we are looking forward to Lyle’s test drive of an IV Volt!!!

Go GM!! Go GM Volt Team!

NPNS

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k-dawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:17 am

Good to hear the almighty clock still reigns.

I took the photo above and messed around in photo-shop to see what other colors would look like. To me, black looks great because the front grills really pop. Charcoal gray & dark green were also eye-catching.

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Dave B Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:27 am

Ironic there won’t be enough money to charge the vehicles once they’re built to test them…sorry, hard not to feel sarcastic when looking at the Volt now that to me it has become the symbol of either bankruptcy or a federally funded widget. Ugh…

I’m still deciding whether my EV will be a Ford, Tesla, or Volt!

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Guy Incognito Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:36 am

Those tires look like those low profile ghetto fab type.
Same with the rims, ghetto fab.

Why no Sprewell wheel spinners?

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Schmeltz Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:36 am

Koz @ #8 and #9:

Thanks for posting that article—You beat me to it!

The article is from Chelsea Sexton (from “Who Killed the Electric Car?” fame). She wrote an excellent blog about her experience with a test drive of the Volt. As Koz mentions in #9, she seems to have pried out of Frank Weber the main reason no “outsiders” have driven the Volt mule in Range Extending mode…”You can hear the engine come on”. By that statement, it sounds like they (GM) wants this car to be flawless, and I welcome that!

Definitely worth the read!!! Here it is again:

http://evchels.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/poker-faces/

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dc Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:38 am

Still very underwhelmed by the look of this car…

But what is the white car in the background?

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Shock Me Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:42 am

25 dc

I thought the very same thing. The blue color and light trim really kill the lines of the Volt. would look better if trim matched the blue or failing that was black.

Also the hubcaps or whatever they are look pretty lame. The show car on letterman looked much better as far as exterior colors and wheels. These wheels look smaller somehow.

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Jordo P. Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:45 am

Congratulations GM on another great Milestone! I was trying to convince my dad that for me watching EV cars come about is equivalent to his excitement when he watched the first human to step foot on the moon. We can do it!

Tag
JPGMV!!

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statik Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:50 am

Geesh, you guys are all so negative. After 30-odd months, somewhere out there, a ‘almost’ prototype is about to be started to be built.

/seriously though, regardless of when/how I think this is going to end up, I’m glad we are finally getting to this stage
———–

“forth” – onward or outward in place or space; forward: to come forth; go forth.

“fourth” – next after the third; being the ordinal number for four.

/you know how much I abhor spelling errors, hehe

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Assembly of the First True Chevy Volt Integration Vehicles Begins Today | CARSREVIEW.CO.UK Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:00 am
Eco Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:04 am

I get it.

Given our conditioning, having the engine start up at seemingly random times would be a bit disconcerting. Imagine coasting up to stop sign and applying the brakes, and then the engine comes on…that would feel weird…until I got used to it. I’d probably apply the brakes harder just from instinct.

A dashboard warning light would work, just to let you know it’s coming on in a few seconds…if they don’t figure out how to keep it silent.

The other day I was driving around, and had my window down. A Tahoe was next to me, and pulled away for a left turn…and it made that electric car sound…it was a hybrid. That was pretty cool, and I just marked it down as another milestone of the transition.

I want to start my own countdown clock…for when gasoline hits 2.00 a gallon again. Won’t be long now.

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CDAVIS Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:05 am

______________________________________________________
Way to go GM Voltec Development Team!!!
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = Energy Security
______________________________________________________

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Shock Me Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:06 am

I’m excited for them even though it may be years before I can afford one. I hope the Voltec drivetrain turns up in a Buick showroom.

Preferably in a Riviera roadster model similar to the Saturn Sky.

OTOH by the time my Century dies, I could find a nice price on a ICE Sky!

Currently getting 11-16 MPG in the city and 30 MPG on the highway with my decade-old Buick. I say take your time and get it right GM, or you’ll never have another chance at what little cash I have.

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Van Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:13 am

As noted above, all the parts for the production intent Volt are arranged and will be assembled within two weeks, but the size of the gas tank is a secret. When GM uses the word transparent, they have their own special meaning akin to obscure.

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Adrian Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:15 am

Good job Volt team. Get the MSRP down to 25k, then you truly have a compact car for the masses. Then replace the gasoline engine for a fuel cell and it will truly be a ‘green’ car.

Now GM needs to start making money to pay me and the rest of us back the money the majority of the country didn’t want to give them in the first place.

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Jackson Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:17 am

A picture of the Volt that isn’t pale silver! Hooray!!

The blue could maybe be a little darker, but it looks pretty danged cool to me.

Since the “grille” is essentially a decal, I still think they could come up with several colors to go with different paint jobs for not a lot of money.

My guess on the wheels is that these are shallow covers designed to evoke the current style of deeply set wheel spokes (which would not cut into the wind as much as the real things would).

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Tagamet Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:27 am

As long as the sound from the engine starting doesn’t make me duck my head, I’m on-board! (jk). That it runs “Prius quiet” isn’t good enough if it comes on with a BANG. Let’s get on the stick GM!
OK,ok, I was just trading normal spots with Statik – he was so darn POSITIVE today (thanks, friend)
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!!**
**= implies production Volt

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statik Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:33 am

#14 Rashiid Amul said:
“I don’t like the blue color in the Volt picture above. Not sure why, but I think it somehow covers the lines and curves of the car.”

#26 shock me said:
“I thought the very same thing. The blue color and light trim really kill the lines of the Volt. would look better if trim matched the blue or failing that was black.”

#35 Jackson said:
“A picture of the Volt that isn’t pale silver! Hooray!!”

=======================================
The never mentioned/never shown ‘black Volt’ I dug up from the stock press photos from the ‘wine and dine, cheese tasting festival spectacular’ for the PTFoA on May 8th:

http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/MontgomeryGMDesign03.jpg?download=021285

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:37 am

@ #30 Eco,
>> I want to start my own countdown clock…for when gasoline
>> hits 2.00 a gallon again. Won’t be long now.

You mean going UP, or going DOWN? It’s already $2.60/gallon for regular here in SE Wisconsin, and I can’t see it coming back down to $2 anytime soon… if ever.

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charlie h Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:41 am

#17, StevePA, “Well, by their own accounting GM’s Volt mules took them to within 80% of the final vehicle. This fleet of 100 production intent testers should get the other 20%.”

So, these Volts are 100%. Somebody had to tell the parts supplier how big to make the tank. Yet, the post yesterday was about the lack of decision on the tank. My question is very valid.

#17, StevePA, “You must be pretty heavily invested in Toyota (as an employee, salesperson, owner or whatever) to have such blind loyalty to one manufacturer.”

Not at all. I’m just a satisfied customer. On the other hand, as a taxpayer, I have a significant investment in GM. It was entirely involuntary. However, this investment means it is in my interest for GM to succeed. I don’t believe that selling an orverpriced and unprofitable vehicle in infinitesimal volumes is going to achieve anything for GM.

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kgurnsey Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:52 am

Talk about being at the right place at the right time, to hear a Volt mule with the genset running, “just happen” to drive by. No offence to Lyle, who has been doing a stellar job keeping us in the know all this time, but I’m pretty sure only the infamous Chelsea Sexton herself could possibly get such an “accidental” scoop.

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Jim in PA Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:55 am

#20 Jim I – You make the point that “Saying a car will lose 2 cubic feet of storage space to put in a bigger fuel tank does not sound like much on paper, but when focus groups start to actually see the smaller trunk space, it may be changed before the actual assembly of the vehicles we get to buy.”

You give the fuel tank more volume than is warranted. 2 cubic feet is 15 gallons. If GM bumps the tank from 6 up to 8 gal, that additional 2 gallons equals only 0.27 cubic feet. From what I understand, there may be some additional expansion capacity for temperature effects etc, but either way the fuel tank volume is a non-factor. PLUS: The fuel tank goes under the frame no matter what size it is. I can’t imagine GM redesigning the frame and the underside of the trunk to accomodate a larger tank. I don’t think a change in gas tank size would have any effect on interior or trunk space, it would just be reconfigured under the car. Am I wrong?

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Jim in PA Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:59 am

#39 Charlie h – Man, you must think that a car is built around the gas tank. It’s bolted to the underside, dude. Provided there is a flexible enough configuration down there, a different size gas tank could be swapped out with no effect on anything else. You are grasping at straws.

By the way, from what I understand Toyota has not yet specified windshield wipers for the plug-in Prius currently in the works. I guess that means the whole car is just vapor-ware. I mean, who the hell could believe they are developing a car in the absence of a windshield wiper spec?!?! Do they think we are stupid?

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nataraj Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:01 am

In other news today – bond holders send GM to bankruptsy. This will come as a shock to everyone here who wanted the people who actually make the cars to be the culprits.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090527/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_bondholders

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LeoK Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:04 am

Great news Lyle – thanks for keeping us all engaged between the otherwise negative news surrounding GM. In 3-5 years, the world will look back at GM’s decision to stay the course with VOLT development while the walls came tumbling down around them as the key driver in the resurgence of GM.

Kudos to Jason @ #2 for his comment on Toyota!

With the template build started, I think Lyle’s next challenge will be to get GM to release a number of the Validation VOLT’s built early next year to be tested by the key advocates on this site. Just like GM has done with the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Equinox with “Project Driveway”, they should put together a small fleet of early Validation VOLT models and release them to real world consumers in a variety of markets around the US (and maybe even a few to Canada?). Drivers would be required to keep a detailed log on usage and capture critical data from real world usage. This site is the perfect spot to find some willing participants!

Go VOLT!

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k-dawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:13 am

Different colored Volts

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f39/chevy-volt-colors-69310/

note: the bottom front vent in Lyle’s pick above is silver, as well as the mirrors. I like that better than the black (when the paint color of the car is black)

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N Riley Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:17 am

If it were not for the difficult days ahead for GM, this would be a much greater day. It is a great day, never the less, just not as great. The dark cloud hanging over GM has at least one small silver lining. Thanks to you GM and good luck, too.

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Donald Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:28 am

#34 Adrian

I agree, a 25K price the Volt would make a difference. At 40K, its just an novelty car for the few.

If I can buy a Prius/Insight and have $20k left over, its a no brainer. That extra 20K would pay for 9,000 gallons of gas and 450,000 miles of driving before I equalled the Volt’s price tag. I can’t justify that cost premium.

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Schmeltz Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:39 am

#45 K-Dawg:
That was a cool link–Thanks.

#46 N Riley:
I know what you are saying. At this point, I just want GM to go through the bankruptcy so we can all move on with our lives. I suspect I’m not alone in that sentiment.

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BillR Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 9:58 am

#43 Nataraj,

Actually, it may be the US Government who sends GM to bankruptcy.

“GM had said previously that the government was preventing it from offering bondholders more than 10 percent of the restructured company.”

http://my.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20090527/4a1cbac0_3ca6_1552620090527-35186143

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solo Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:06 am

Sounds like G.M. Will be in chapter 11 by next week.

This may push back the G.M. Volt program a couple months at least.

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DonC Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:09 am

This is super Lyle. Thanks for NOT doing another bankruptcy story. There will be enough opportunity for that in the next few days.

#8 Koz — Yes, thanks for taking the time to repost the cite to the Chelsea Sexton blog about her test drive. Of all the test drives hers may be the most important. For those who don’t know about her background, she worked at GM and sold the EV1 to CA customers (was that all the customers?). When GM discontinued the EV1 she left GM. Later she was involved in the group of EV1 owners which morphed into the making of the movie “Who Killed the Electric Car”. She also founded the organization Plug-In America which has played an important lobbying role in getting the tax rebates expanded. Chelsea is a frequent speaker at various conferences and has probably driven most electric cars out there.

The bottom line is that she knows GM, has been driving EVs for over ten years, and is as politically “plugged in” as you can get. Given her background and perspective, her test drive validates what the GM engineers have accomplished so far, and her positive response bodes well for GM winning over the doubting EV community. This is a very important test drive report. Plus it’s great to have someone give more information about the “problems” of the ICE drive. Imagine, the engine sounds as noisy as a Prius. WOW. Stop production NOW.

As for the colors, all I can say is — OMG. Colors? You have got to be kidding me. From yesterday’s news we should know that all Volts should be white, off-white, silver, or some other light color. They use less air conditioning so you’ll get better range. (Can you believe that painting flat roofs and roads a light color would save the energy equivalent of removing all the cars in the world from the roads for eleven years? I knew painting roofs white saved energy — and I’ve always bought white cars because they do stay cooler — but I had no idea the energy savings were so substantial.)

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Jack Tripper Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:11 am

It’s about time GM starts actually building this thing. Hey Volt enthusiasts, don’t ever look in your rear-view mirror and hope to see a Toyota Prius. What you really need to do is look far ahead if you want to see an awesome hybrid Prius. Recently the geniuses at the world’s largest and most advanced automaker offered GM the cutting-edge Prius technology. GM would be wise to accept theed offer from the world leaders in Hybrid technology. Why reinvent the wheel ?

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Tall Pete Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:12 am

#8 Koz
Hopefully this brings a little excitement and anticipation back to the project for Volt fans.
——————————————————————————————————————
Thanks for the link. Great read.

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Tall Pete Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:25 am

#22 Dave B
Ironic there won’t be enough money to charge the vehicles once they’re built to test them…sorry, hard not to feel sarcastic when looking at the Volt now that to me it has become the symbol of either bankruptcy or a federally funded widget.
——————————————————————————————————————
You know, the first electronic calculators were the direct result of what was developed in the Apollo program. It was the first commercial application of the microchips created for the space program.

The first micro-computers were the direct result of what was developed in the Apollo program as well so you can consider that the PC you are using to post on this blog is a federally funded widget.

The Apollo program, when you think of it, was the seed for Silicon Valley.

The Volt, to me, is the seed that will free us all from oil 30 or 40 years down the road. The fact that they are on the verge of bankruptcy is just a catalyst for GM to change and move forward, guiding everybody else in the same direction (VW, Nissan, etc.).

Tesla alone would have taken decades to accomplish the same, have they survived that long. When GM decided to go the EV way, everybody else suddenly felt the urge to do the same.

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MarkinWI Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:29 am

Tripper @ #52 – Put down the shrooms. Your “free-tech” offer was discussed a couple of days ago. Sounds like another urban myth.

Great day, big step. I drove by the (dead looking) Kenosha Chrysler Engine Plant yesterday. Hopefully, we’ll see plants like that one revived soon.

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k-dawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:31 am

@51 DonC

My roof & roads are white…. in the winter.
I dont think you’ll have a choice for Volt roof colors. They are glass (so it appears)

52 Jack -” Why reinvent the wheel ?”

To make a better one. Or is that a mousetrap?

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James Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:32 am

#47 Donald – Those numbers are flawed. After tax incentives, the Volt will likely only be about $32K. The base price for the current Prius (which no longer receives incentives) is $22K. A nicely equipped touring version is almost $30K.

I played these games with Toyota for years (I’ve owned 4) before I bought my first Honda (Acura actually) and realized how much money I saved by getting as standard equipment many things I would have bought anyway.

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Luke Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:32 am

[original post deleted]

I was all excited until I read the article and saw that the car in the picture was a publicity mockup.

I love the color, though. Any electric-ish car that I buy will be blue. Electric blue.

I’d love to see a photo of the integration vehicle in all of its “alpha release” glory.

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KUD Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:34 am

#
# 52 Jack Tripper Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:11 am

It’s about time GM starts actually building this thing. Hey Volt enthusiasts, don’t ever look in your rear-view mirror and hope to see a Toyota Prius. What you really need to do is look far ahead if you want to see an awesome hybrid Prius. Recently the geniuses at the world’s largest and most advanced automaker offered GM the cutting-edge Prius technology. GM would be wise to accept theed offer from the world leaders in Hybrid technology. Why reinvent the wheel ?

AND ALL GM has to do is givie them the Voltec technology in return. NO THANKS!!!!!!!!!!

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:54 am

I was going to make comment along the lines of they fit the tank with the integration builds.

Adrian, I was going to say again that fuel cells cost too much. (people are already complaining at 40k-ish I can just imagine wha they would say when their fuel cell Volt was 140k-ish)

But I’m tired of saying the same thing all the time so I will not!

I can’t wait to see and ‘not’ hear the Volt!

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 10:59 am

@James 57

“#47 Donald – Those numbers are flawed. After tax incentives, the Volt will likely only be about $32K. The base price for the current Prius (which no longer receives incentives) is $22K. A nicely equipped touring version is almost $30K. ”

Sorry, but your numbers are flawed. When you go buy the Volt and put your $$$ as a down payment, the sale price is still $40K and you will still have to finance that fake $7500 within your loan. On your purchase paper it will always be your approx $40K minus (-) your downpayment. The rebate does nothing at purchase time AND you are financing that $7500. No matter what anyone says or plays with the numbers, that is FACT…

The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:05 am

@Tall Pete 54
“The Volt, to me, is the seed that will free us all from oil 30 or 40 years down the road.”

I don’t get it? The Volt has an ICE mated to the generator. It will still use Gas. Hence it’s Gensets purpose for everyone screaming “Range Anxiety”. If it’s purpose is to alleviate “Range Anxiety” then it’s purpose is to use Gas.
Am I wrong?
Now for those knuckleheads like me who will use it for just a BEV then I can understand that, but to claim it will free us when “By design” it consumes Gas then I have to say no. It wont free us. Only a tru BEV will not this car. It’s a step foreward just like a Hybrid but free us it will not.

The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…

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StevePA Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:15 am

# 39 charlie h
Guess there needed to be more clarity in how I presented the first point – the production intent fleet now being built is a test fleet – which should give them the answers – over the next many months – on the remaining 20%.

You confirmed my last point – I used owner (meaning vehicle owner), you used customer.

Glad to see you are satisfied with your purchase.

Majority of us here are US taxpayers.
Personally, I’m considerably more incensed about subsidizing the remnants of AIG and the investment banks. What is going to GM is pocket change compared to those amounts. That aside, if my tax dollars must to go to ANY auto manufacturer, I’d rather see them support US based manufacturers and employees than foreign domiciled firms in the form of tax incentives in the locales where they site their US assembly plants…tax incentives the local citizens and businesses have to make up for in local budgets. And, if you lived in Japan, your taxes would be going to support the multibillion dollar loans they just took out from the Japanese government.
Let’s just hope that someday the taxpayers will get at least some reasonable percentage of the loan / bailout money back from all the supplicants.

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old man Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:17 am

#61 Captjack

Why not simply finance the $7,500.00 with a separate loan on which you only pay the interest monthly and then final payment when the rebate is recieved by you. I think if I can afford a Volt then my credit score will stand up to getting said loan.

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charlie h Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:20 am

#63 StevePA, “And, if you lived in Japan, your taxes would be going to support the multibillion dollar loans they just took out from the Japanese government.”

Toyota’s likely to pay that back. That was never in the cards for GM.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:22 am

#25 DC

It’s not a white car in the background. That’s a Silver Corvette Stingray for the Transformers Movie called “Sideswipe”.

It’s a little overdone as most Corvette show cars have always been in the past, but there are some very good styling cues that will hopefully carry over to the next generation Vette. I especially like the headlights. The current headlights are too wanna-be-Ferrari.

Bring back the Stingray! Bring us the VOLT!

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Anthony BC Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:24 am

dc#25 – Check out the Transformers trailer to see more of the white car in background.

GO EV!

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:24 am

@old man 64

that’s possible too. But what a pain just to buy a car. If you do that, I suggest you buy the car in Nov or Dec so you make the minimumest of months to pay. lol……ok that wasn’t a word but it works.
Besides, no matter what you do that $7500 will have to get financed some how and you still lose out a percentage.
OK, so i’m a cheap a$$ed penney pincher.

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JohnJ Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:26 am

#61, #64:

Car loans are generally simple loans with no prepayment penalty. So when the $7500 check comes in, send it to the loan processor. At worst you’ll pay a month or two’s interest on the $7500.

Also, I would hope that the incentive can be redirected/signed over to the dealer instead, rendering it an at-sale rebate like manufacturer rebates are currently handled.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:33 am

@JohnJ 69

“At worst you’ll pay a month or two’s interest on the $7500.”

At best if you bought in December you have 4 months, Jan thru April, on payments. A little more than I would like. Yes, I’m a chealp a$$.

“Also, I would hope that the incentive can be redirected/signed over to the dealer instead, rendering it an at-sale rebate like manufacturer rebates are currently handled.”

Yeah, I brought that up before but because it’s a fed/govt rebate they won’t do that. It’s a trust thing someone said.

The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…

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Vincent Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:40 am

Congratulations GM, America and the Volt Team.
And a big thank you for loosing the Silver color. Blue looks exponentially better. Whats that in the mirror….oh..too bad…Toyota…. dropping off like a prom dress….hope the Toyota president doesn’t fall on a sword over this… See ya…

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Vincent Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:43 am

Corvette Guy… I too noticed the Vette. (saw it in the volt video months ago) Lets hope GM puts most, if not all of the Transformer styling on the next Gen Vette.

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statik Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:52 am

#71 vincent said:

Congratulations GM, America and the Volt Team.
And a big thank you for loosing the Silver color. Blue looks exponentially better. Whats that in the mirror….oh..too bad…Toyota…. dropping off like a prom dress….hope the Toyota president doesn’t fall on a sword over this… See ya…

==========================

Thank Spielberg and Dreamworks.

You might want to thank him for also letting us see the ‘production-a-like’ Volt when we did, otherwise who knows when it would have gotten revealed….seems like back then GM was ‘threatening’ to show it to us at just about every autoshow and each national holiday.

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eightzero Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:57 am

I want an electric car. I will buy one when available.

However, it looks like I won’t be able to buy the Volt. I can only afford $30k. It looks like the Volt will be in excess of this. I’d buy a Tesla, but it’s tag is considerably above my $30k limit.

And, I seriously doubt the wisdom of buying a product from a bankrupt entity. What warranty will the Volt come with? None.

I leaned not to buy first year model cars from GM long ago when I bought a Fiero. 1c POS.

Fare thee well, Volt. Sorry it didn’t work out.

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Donald Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

#57 James
“Those numbers are flawed”

Ok, I’ll assume a Insight, MSRP $19,800 and the “with tax credit” price of $32,500 for the Volt. That extra $12,700 at today’s gas prices buys 5,772 gallons of fuel. I can drive my Insight 288,600 miles “for free” before I equal the purchase price of the Volt. In other words, I will never make up the extra cost of the Volt in the life of the car.

I don’t have the luxury to buy a car just because I want to make a statement. I want to be as green as possible, as cheaply as possible. I’d consider a GM if they made a similar priced hybrid car, but I’ve been priced out of the Volt.

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Tommy's Dad Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

I’ll have one electric blue Volt, hold the gas and add extra SCREW YOU TOYOTA!

Seriously though, yeah, love the blue in this story and at the link in post #45. Blue is such a great car color, even if it’s not as practical or efficient as a white or beige color. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a car that didn’t look good (or at least better) in blue. Of course I’ll take my volt any way I can get it, but I can get it in a good shade of blue…mmmHMM!

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

CaptJackSparrow,

First, the series hybrid configuration is a stepping stone towards the rapid recharge battery electric vehicle (RRBEV) and plug-in fuel cell electric vehicle (PFCEV).

Second, as is, the Volt plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) will dramatically reduce gasoline consumption through its all-electric range, which covers the majority of daily commutes, as well as its greater mileage while the generator is running.

Finally, the Volt helps cost reduce these EV technologies, while acclamating the market to seeing and using RRBEV’s and PFCEV’s.

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LauraM Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

#8 koz

Interesting article. It’s very encouraging that she likes the Volt. GM needs all the positive press it can get these days.

#52 Jack Tripper

Even if GM got the Prius technology tomorrow, it would take them at least two years to actually build a car using it. By that time, they should have Volts on the road, and be well on the way to gen2. Why would they want to build yet another Prius when they could be the only ones buildng EREVs?

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k-dawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

75 Donald

You cant justify a Volt purchase based on economic factors (that debate on this site is a dead horse IMO). But some things to consider are less maintenance, let stops at the gas station (hassle), the possibility gas goes to $5/gallon, reduced pricing on Volt Ver 2.0, the driving experience, and any other intangible you want to throw in there. Just looking at the dollar and cents… correct.. it makes no sense… right now.

I’ll buy a Volt just cuz I like it, not to save money. Same reason I bought my last car.

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Voltair Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

Note to people criticizing GM for not revealing the tank size: I’m sure GM has a target for the size of the tank, but they can’t reveal its final capacity until after development is completed. Why? Because the capacity of the tank can change during the development process even if the exterior dimensions of the tank does not! For example, if the results of a validation test for the tank straps requires a tank strap change, it could compress the tank in a slightly different way and change the capacity by 10%.

It would be PR disaster to reveal the target capacity of the tank without everyone understanding that the “size” will likely change during the development process.

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Tex-Arl Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

AS always, there are a lot of negative posts. I can understand that.

They will build approx 100 ???? preproduction (called validation now) about Jan-Feb. There is no way that any of you will have a chance to be a participant in a drive program. Imagine the lawsuit if something were to happen. Golly, I was just driving along and a noise (engine starting) startled me and the car drove into the tree.

I hope that the engineers and programmers will get the engine set up so that when it starts, it will gradually increase RPM to avoid a sudden increase in noise.

Whatever, it will be a great day when our citizens can buy a car that will solve 80-90?? % of the costs of gasoline.

There are some silver linings.

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DonC Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

With a tip of the hat to k-dawg in #79, can we stop comparing the price of the Volt to the price of the Prius? At this point it’s academic. GM will be selling 10,000 EVs which will cost about $48K to build. Toyota will hopefully be selling 250,000 hybrids with split drive that will cost $22K to build.

We know that the first gen Volt will not be able to compete on price. We can count on that. Right now if you aren’t willing to pay a premium for an EV then you’re not in the target demographic. As GM starts to ramp up production for a market larger than that provided by early adopters, the price issue will come down to what type of cost cuts GM can get for gen II and gen III, the price of gas, and how good a car the Volt turns out to be. But that issue is down the line. To ultimately be competitive, and to be able to sell hundreds of thousands of Volts a year, GM will have to cut the price differential down enough so that this differential is smaller than the perceived benefit. In this regard, the larger the perceived benefit, be it handling, performance, green creed, or whatever, the larger the price differential can be, subject of course to the reality that not everyone can afford $35K cars.

Along these same lines, a simple comparison of the acquisition prices and running costs of the two cars can be useful, but using this comparison as a decision table is mindless. It leaves out all the benefits. Like some have pointed out, why buy a Prius when you can buy a Corolla? Why buy an Accord when you can buy a Civic? Why ever buy a BMW or Mercedes? Why buy an SUV? Obviously people aren’t primarily motivated by costs alone.

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LauraM Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

#65 charlie h

Did they also compensate their customers for the 30+ years that the Japanese government kept the foreign competition out of Japan? Because GM and Ford really did make much better cars in the 1940s-60s. (They were laughed out of the US market at that point.)

If the US government did the same thing with the foreign competition (or even just imposed a tarriff on cars equal to the Japan current effective tarriff), GM could pay back every penny. Even Chrysler would be instantly viable without Fiat. Unlike say, Toyota, who was bailed out by the Japanese government numerous times during that period. (And I believe that those were grants, not loans.)

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Dave K. Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

Six months ago GM reported that it was operating 20 Voltech mule cars. Running them in hot and cold climates. And that the overall test results, including the battery system, looked very good.

We have experienced the acceleration and quiet nature of the Volt through video. And we know that the Volt will have a net cost of $35,500 out-the-door.

We now see the production intent Volt being assembled. This is a big step forward. The first 6 months of 09′ went by pretty quick. I’m going to miss the twice per week Arco fill up stop.

=D~

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DonC Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

#70 CJS says “At best if you bought in December you have 4 months, Jan thru April, on payments. A little more than I would like. Yes, I’m a chealp a$$”

So you don’t mind paying a $10,000 premium for an EV but it’s a big deal if you have to pay an extra $150 in finance charges. Makes perfect sense! Actually I’d suggest forgoing the floor mats to pay for this but since you’ve already gotten rid of all the extras — and then some — you’re already on board with that one.

Perhaps you should think of all the ways you could use that $7500. One that springs to mind are lottery tickets. You could buy the Volt for $40K, finance that — including the sales tax — and when you get your rebate check buy $7500 of lottery tickets. When they pay off and you’re a multi-millionaire you can get that double wide you’ve been lusting after.

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Starcast Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

#75 Donald Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

“Ok, I’ll assume a Insight, MSRP $19,800 and the “with tax credit” price of $32,500 for the Volt. That extra $12,700 at today’s gas prices buys 5,772 gallons of fuel. I can drive my Insight 288,600 miles “for free” before I equal the purchase price of the Volt. In other words, I will never make up the extra cost of the Volt in the life of the car.

I don’t have the luxury to buy a car just because I want to make a statement. I want to be as green as possible, as cheaply as possible. I’d consider a GM if they made a similar priced hybrid car, but I’ve been priced out of the Volt.”

SO if the Cruze gets 45+ mpg and is $18,000 you would buy it then because you would never save back the the extra $ 1800 in gas. AS the Insight only gets 43 mpg hwy (Not 50 as in your example)

Maybe you should just buy a Smart car now and save some money. Sorry I take that back, I do not wish for you or anyone else to drive that death trap.

People buy lots of things that don’t save back their cost. Look at home wind mills 5 to 10K+ to save $50 a month or $600 a year. But a lot of people are buying them.

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charlie h Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

#82, LauraM,

Funny. There’s Beemers in Japan but no Impalas. Why do you suppose that is?

GM’s not getting whipped by Toyota because they can’t sell into Japan’s tiny car market, they’re getting whipped because Toyota’s building better cars. The Japanse will buy better cars than Toyotas and Hondas but not worse ones.

You can make all the excuses you like for GM but they’re on the brink of bankruptcy because they’ve made consistently bad decisions and bad cars for decades.

I knew where GM was headed in 1978 when I lived overseas in an LDC. I visited three of their major cities and each one contained a Toyota dealership of some sort with shiny new Toyotas in front of it but you could not find a place to buy a new American car because the cars we were selling and building were cars that no one in that country would want and we weren’t offering them something at a price that they could pay. Toyota decided they could develop a car people would like and they found a way to build it at a price those people could afford. Nobody in Detroit gave two cents’ worth of thought to the world market.

Nobody in Detroit bothered to fight the Japanese here, either, Detroit just ceded them the low end, small-car market on the theory that Americans didn’t want to be seen in tinny little cars and they’d move up to Real American Iron as soon as they had the money.

But a funny thing happened… Well, I guess it’s not so funny and I’m helping pay for it, now, aren’t I?

And GM remains infested with the same culture and people that put them on the ropes. It amazes me that people expect that same GM to build a “game changing” car of the future.

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Tall Pete Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

@Tall Pete 54 (me)
“The Volt, to me, is the seed that will free us all from oil 30 or 40 years down the road.”

#62 CaptJackSparrow :
I don’t get it? The Volt has an ICE mated to the generator. It will still use Gas. Hence it’s Gensets purpose for everyone screaming “Range Anxiety”. If it’s purpose is to alleviate “Range Anxiety” then it’s purpose is to use Gas.
Am I wrong?
——————————————————————————————————————-
Well, that’s exactly what I meant by seed. We are not there yet with the Volt, it’s only a step, that’s why I think it will take a few decades to rid us of oil.

Still, it’s an important step – some would say a milestone – because it will make the BEV a common thing thanks to the ER provided by the gas engine. The rest is just a matter of researching and finding a way to store enough energy in the battery in a short period of recharge time. That research will be done if there is an obvious market to sell the result to. The market will be there if there is acceptance of the BEV.

First and foremost, the Volt is a BEV and in my view the surest way to gain acceptance of the BEV in the general public. The ICE generator is only there to provide more energy than the battery can store for the time being.

But it’s only the beginning and the funding to keep GM afloat will allow research to be done in the field of batteries knowing there is a market for the breakthroughs.

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Dave K. Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

DonC #85,

Double wide Don? hee hee

=D~

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CDAVIS Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

______________________________________________________
The OPEC Prosperity Tax:

Oil hits 6-month high. Saudi says world can cope.

“…Saudi Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi, speaking on the eve of a meeting of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries in Vienna, said oil prices would continue to rise and that the global economy was now strong enough to support $75-$80 oil…”

Oil Minister Naimi said: “The price rise is a function of optimism. Better things are coming in the future,” Naimi told reporters in Vienna.”

Source:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Oil-up-bas-Saudi-says-world-rb-15358321.html?.v=8
——

So as the economy recovers, the Saudi Oil Minster believes we should embrace the eventual return of $4+/gl gas as a cost of the markets improving to a state of optimism (prosperity).

That is the same thing as saying we consumers can look forward to paying OPEC a Prosperity Tax. We have gone from paying the British a Prosperity Tax (which we went to war to abolish) to having to pay OPEC a Prosperity Tax (which we may/are end up at war to protect). How screw*d up is that???

Drive to Work… pay OPEC a Prosperity Tax

Drive Kids to School…pay OPEC a Prosperity Tax

Drive to Disney World…. pay OPEC a Prosperity Tax

Drive Around the Block…pay OPEC a Prosperity Tax

OR….

Buy a VOLT!
______________________________________________________

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BillR Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

#82 DonC,

You will need to copy this one and keep it handy. It will need to be posted many times again over the next 18 months.

I will add, if someone is truly short on money and needs a car for less, the best values are in the used car market. So in several years after its introduction, a used Volt, still with 6 years/100,000 miles left on the battery warranty, will be a great value!

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k-dawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

Interesting Time Magazine article from 1980.
Funny how 30 years ago, everyone was saying the same thing as today… history repeating itself and all that.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,923919-2,00.html

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Jackson Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

Capt Jack (#62)
Tall Pete (#88):

When I was a kid, I read in my grandfather’s Popular Mechanics that the electric car was only ten years away! I wondered if one might be out by the time I got my license.

Popular Mechanics was right. The electric car would be “ten years away” for another 40 years (not counting souped-up golf-carts and California-only experiments).

During these years, there was an iron-clad rule where electric cars were concerned: You needed a better battery to build an electric car, and no one was going to build an electric car without a better battery.

Tesla proved that a real electric car wasn’t impossible. It and the Volt have provided something the “better battery” hasn’t had in years and years: A Market.

What breakthroughs have we seen in battery development just in the past year? And it’s just beginning.

Now, the electric car is just 2 years away!

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LauraM Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

#87 charlie h

You’re right. The Japanese market is largely irrelevant today. But in the 40’s and 60s it played a large role to Toyota. Or do you think that they could have competed with GM and Ford at that point? I suppose the Japanese government kicked them out because they felt like it? They took the short term loss for their consumers for a long term gain–a competitive automobile industry. And the Japanese economy has benefited enormously from it.

It just goes to show you what you need to do in order to have a functioning economy. Unfortunately, the US will not do the same thing. I don’t think they can actually. We owe the rest of the world too much money. So, instead, we’re throwing money at GM in an effort to keep our industry alive. (Chrysler too, but I still haven’t figured out why.)

Detriot had no choice about the small-end car market given their union contracts. How can you compete in a low-margin sector when if you bulid the same exact car, you’d lose $1000, and your competition will make $1000? The fact that labor is a small percentage of the cost of building a car is irrelevant when it’s the tipping point between profit and loss.

You could say they should have renegotiated the union contracts. But how were they supposed to do that? Do you know how many billions labor strikes have cost the automobile industry? Gettlefinger, in front of congress, called giving up the jobs bank a “painful sacrifice” when the only thing keeping GM and Chrysler from bankruptcy was the possibility of a government loan. Even now, the brunt of the lower wages are going to be borne by new hires.

Does that seem like the kind of union who would renegotiate a labor contract so that Detriot could compete in the small car market? When they were still profitable in other areas? As far as I can tell, they would have driven any one of the big three into bankruptcy court before they let that happen.

Yes, management made many mistakes. Not following up on Saturn, the Fiat alliance, Hummer, etc. But not trying to compete on small cars wasn’t one of them.

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Steven Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

This simple fact is probably the biggest factor in GMs bankruptcy.

“US car owners happier with imports”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090527/ts_alt_afp/usautobankruptcychryslergm

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k-dawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

Lyle – Where are the IVers being put together and will they be driven on Michigan roads, outside of the test center? They can’t disguise the Voltec in Malibu’s and Cruze bodies anymore. I’ll be looking for Volt-size cars w/the camo-padding on them. Will GM give you some pics of the interior once they have an IV together? I’m curious as to what, if anything has changed.

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Ed M Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

GM vows to produce an electric car which can travel more than 100 miles on a single battery charge by 2012. For GM to make this claim they must already have or be very close to this technology.

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carcus1 Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

Matthew Simmons (March 2009) on oil price, Saudi Oil, Peak Oil, and the impact of electric cars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gem872xH_7s

/This is not a happy place. If you want to be in a happy place, do not go here.

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k-dawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

95 Steven

Those percentages were pretty close, and also very subjective. What about a poll on trucks (which are much more pofitable).

I think the #1 reason all the car companies are hurting is because no one is buying cars. Basically, the economy in general.

There’s lots of other reasons too, but I’d say that is biggest factor.

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Ed M Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

#95 I think there’s a turnaround in American thinking. With unions accepting less there’ll be more money to spend in quality control and better designs for small US cars.

#99 I agree that consumers aren’t buying because of the credit crunch. With loans and mortgages becoming easier to get the economy will pick up as well. It would be a lot different if American cars were the only commodity not selling, but nothing is selling right now.

The world runs on credit and that must be turned around. People (Wall Street bankers, etc.) must not be allowed to bring the world economy to it’s knees again.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

Well folks. At a price of $40,000.000 + est Dealer markup ($2K) + Licensce (Fukin CA Fees $600) + Doc Fees ($125) + Destination charges ($750) + Tax @ 8.75% ($3804.06) = $47,279.06.

I have been priced out of the Volt. I will be looking for a more affordable alternative. There’s just no justifying a car at that price no matter how I look at it and God knows what else is going to change on the car. Compromising on something at over $40,0000 is not an option. I’ll stop in from time to time to see if they decided to drop the price.

Oh and yes, I am one of those who looks at the taxes and finance charges. It’s just plain fooloish not to.

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k-dawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

Capjack, I dont think you are alone. I think there’s lots of people looking for an economic yet still feasible electric vehicle. I’m not sure what the magic #’s are .. somewhere between a Puma and a Tesla. Maybe w/some tech advancements we will get a $20k, 150mile, 5 seater, with no frills, that can jump off the line and reach highway speeds. (or try to swing a secret deal on one of the IMiev’s shipped to California’s utility companies)

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LauraM Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

#101 CaptJackSparrow

California might offer some additional incentives–waiving part of the sales tax, etc.?

Also, I’m sure you can find a dealer who will sell it at MSRP. There are people who have found Camaros at MSRP, so I’m sure that it will be the same with the Volt. You just have to shop around.

If not, have you thought about waiting for gen2? GM is obviously very concerned about the price. And I’d imagine that gen2 will be a lot cheaper. Of course, at that point, there will probably be some alternative EVs on the market, but I’m not sure any of them will be cheaper…

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Vincent Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

#73 Statik. Yes your right. I would love to also have a chance to thank FOOSE for styling a car. GM needs to call him. He is simply Fantastic in style! Wanna see sales sky rocket. Get Chip FOOSE on the design studio.
He also seems to be as great a person as he is a designer.
here is a small taste of his capability.
http://content.webridestv.com/datastore/images/user/742f5ac986c020fccbe5005876782cc6/Foose_Coupe_2007071205_l.jpg
Enjoy!

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

@LauraM 103

To be fair, CA does offer a plugin or hybrid rebate of I think around, close to a hypthetical SWAG of some figure roughly in the neighborhood of $2000 – $3000. But still not enough after a crazy year of lost wages and instability.

Also, I disgree on how they are going to price the Volt. “Depnds of fuel costs…”. No, after going through massive debt write offs and the Tax payers funding this it should be less. Now that’s JIMHO.

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DonC Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

#101 CJS says “I have been priced out of the Volt. I will be looking for a more affordable alternative”

While the dealer markup may be less and CA may do something on the sales tax side, being priced out of the market for a Volt will sadly be the case for a lot of people. But the reality is that the Gen I Volts are going to be very expensive to build. Unfortunately this is nothing new. When the E-RAV4 first came out, it cost about about $42K while the RAV4 cost about $18K. It’s not so much that GM is upping the price as it is that it’s costs are simply very high. The current estimate is that each car will cost GM $48K, meaning that even at $40K GM will be losing $8K on every car.

Having said that, it’s fair to say that at $40K the Volt will cost $32K. You may not want to consider the tax credit, but that’s how every rebate from every manufacturer is treated right now, be it cars or electronics. You’re right that sales taxes and finance charges and other fees must be considered, but they have to be considered for all vehicles, not just the Volt.

As GM moves from Gen I to Gen II and Gen III, those costs should come down as the battery pack and its related electronic controls drop in price and the development costs for all the special custom parts are amortized. That’s just how it works. Gen I plasma TVs cost $10K, now they are cost more like $1K.

PS: Hope you weren’t offended by the double wide comment. I was trying to play along with your trailer park comments. No offense intended.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

105 (Me)

I think the CA rebates expired.

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Tall Pete Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

#98 carcus1 :
Matthew Simmons (March 2009) on oil price, Saudi Oil, Peak Oil, and the impact of electric cars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gem872xH_7s

/This is not a happy place. If you want to be in a happy place, do not go here.
—————————————————————————————————————————-
Yeap. Oil @ 300$ to 600$ a barrel in a foreseable future. Suddenly, a 35K Volt does not seem that expensive.

All kidding aside – though I was not kidding – this gentleman is right. We have no plan B for when we run out of oil or when it becomes unaffordable. Some day, we will think of 4,50$ a gallon as ‘cheap’. And that day is not that far away I’m afraid.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

@DonC 106

“PS: Hope you weren’t offended by the double wide comment. I was trying to play along with your trailer park comments. No offense intended.”

My skins too thick. I didn’t notice…….lol
No offense taken, if any?

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MarkH Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

Maybe the rebate is in the wrong place.
Early adopters would buy the car at any price. Perhaps in place of the next bailout, the Feds should offer a rebate on used PHEV’s bought through dealerships. That would increase the incentive to buy in the first place because the trade in value would improve. Dealerships would get a second chance to take a cut of the rebate. Those of us who normally buy used might even get a bit of a break. The advantage to the government would be that the costs get passed to future administrations.
Now if I could sell the Canadian government on the concept …

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Dan Petit Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

#16
Was wondering how the fuel tank could be changed in volume.
(So easily during any phase of production cycle. EASY!!)
That question was posed on this site several months ago regarding the question, “How many gallons is the capacity of the Volt fuel tank”,

I said 8 gallons, but left the window open for variance.
The answer was said to be a 6 gallon tank.
My immediate reaction was, “It can be very easily design-changed
by varying the
*****************************
DEPTH OF THE TANK
*****************************
which can not easily be ascertained from a two dimensional photo.
I think a 6 gallon tank would pose a lot of problems.
I think an 8 gallon tank ought to be the minimum for reasons of my previous posts.
Optionally-larger tanks would not really cost that much more.
Nasaman would like a full 12 gallon tank. I like that also, just to tick-off the oil speculators, because your purchasing cycles would never fit into their 275 mile (ICE) range “gotcha” marketing cycles.
Heck, if a 12 gallon fill at the cheapest price for Shell 87 octane would work for a 5 month purchase, then,
“Buy low”, so you do not have to “Buy high” within the speculators’ “turn every bad news item into a price hike” methodology of a parasitic-drain of your money.

For this reason then; Voltec vehicles; PRICELESS.
Dan Petit Austin TX.

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Donald Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

#86 Starcast

“AS the Insight only gets 43 mpg hwy (Not 50 as in your example)”

Actually in most real world road tests, people are getting in the 60-70 mpg range with the Insight. So my 50 mpg seems accurate, if not conservative.

http://www.hybridcars.com/gas-mileage/honda-60-mpg-surprise-25564.html

http://www.allcarselectric.com/review/1019683_review-2010-honda-insight-achieves-nearly-70-mpg

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charlie h Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

#94, LauraM,

Actually, I’ve worked in a place where the company went to the mat with the union over work rules and compensation. It wasn’t pleasant but the end result was a big strategic win.

Take a look at NUMMI. That’s still a UAW plant and it builds two relatively inexpensive cars with union labor.

GM actually holds a productivity edge over Toyota. I forget the precise figures but direct labor on a GM car is 19 hours vs something like 22 on a Toyota. That’s for a domestically produced car. Relative wages are actually closer to parity than you probalby think, something like $35 vs $45 per hour. GM has 19 * $45 in each car and Toyota has 22 * $35 in each car. Go do the math. Toyota has something like a $200/car advantage.

Now, GM (and Ford and Chrysler) enjoy a price support in the US market… Domestic preference. Even today, about 40% of US auto buyers WILL NOT CONSIDER an Asian car (and they have never bought one). However, many of that group will consider a German car, so I’ll leave it to your imagination whether or not this is a racially motivated… which is actually unimportant for purposes of discussion. Experience with Detroit cars has, as of recently, led to a situation where 25% of US auto buyers will not consider a Detroit car. This gives Detroit a 15% edge in market share, which amounts to a price support. Ask an economist, if you like, but this is how it shakes out. Do you suppose that edge amounts to $200 per car? Probably… and there’s your “import” labor cost edge… pfft… gone.

Oh, bear in mind that 60% of Toyotas are assembled here and, I’ve checked window stickers, domestic content on those cars is very high. So, what does “closing our markets” actually mean? Let me know.

Now, Japan might have closed their markets 40 or 50 years ago… but we also imposed tarriffs. We might not have been as aggressive as the Japanese but we did do so.

And, what relevance has that today?

Another idea to ponder… The UAW won quite a lot of defined benefits in their contracts. GM arranged this so they wouldn’t have to put up any money… this allowed them to pretend to be profitable… the benefits that the UAW won were something that would be dealt with in the future. Originally (and I go back to the Fifties,, here), the UAW had asked for defined contribution. GM said, nothin’ doin’. That’s a good part of the reason that the Detroit automakers are a giant mass of unfunded liabilities. Which, lucky us, we’ll get to pay for instead of the people who cashed GM dividend checks over the last 40 years – checks inflated by fake profits generated by GM pretending that UAW contracts didn’t cost anything.

Further… GM wasn’t just about cars. GM got into alliances and marriages of convenience with Huges, EDS, FIat (I think it was Fiat… they were involved with the Italians for something) and ended up losing money on all these grand ideas. I think they paid Ross Perot some interesting sum of money just to make him go away. I forget how things shook out with Kerkorian but I’ll bet he didn’t lose out by buying a chunk of GM a few years ago, either. Another “go away” payoff, as I recall.

How many times over the past few years has GM restated earnings? There’s a red flag, for sure.

Then, there’s the matter of the dividend checks themselves. As recently as last year, with whopping negative cash flow and looming massive unprofitability… GM was still paying dividends. I forget exactly when they cut off the gravy train but it was long after smarter people had been asking, “why the h3ll are you paying dividends?”

The Jobs Bank…. I remember when the Jobs Bank first hit the news… It was a ground-breaking agreement. The union feared that the incursion of automation would put union people out of work, so the Jobs Bank was a bridge that would help them. How has this worked out? Detroit (both ends of Detroit) let it morph into a giant welfare program. Look who ultimately gets to pick up the bill.

Some of this is labor. MOST of this is GM. Either way, freezing high-quality cars out of the US market, rather than letting the market “fix” GM is a losing propostion. Protected industries are chronically sick industries. GM was protected, early on, by an extremely strong domestic preference, which they coasted on for years, and their massive market share, which they placidly watched slip away.

And the same people who both made the decisions and built the cars that brought the Old GM to bankruptcy will be the New GM. Good luck with that.

Here’s another example of GM in action… You can skip right over the propaganda from Cheryl Pilcher. Go to the comments to see how GM works for its customers…

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/04/a_tour_of_the_new_chevy_camaro.html

By the way, GM has 16K or so pre-orders for the New Camaro. Toyota has confirmed 80K pre-orders for the 2010 Prius.

The original Camaro was cancelled in 2003, due to low sales. A cursory examination of the auto market shows that two-door coupes are a dying breed. The Challenger’s hot run lasted a few months. GM has introduced three performance cars, the GTO, the G8 and the SSR, over the past few years and seen them go exactly nowhere. The Mustang’s sales were stagnant, even before the recession. The Cougar (which was a fine-looking car, if you ask me) is gone. The Camry Solara sells in insignificant quantities. GM killed the Monte Carlo because of low sales. There are other examples of two-door cars that are gone, gone, gone.

Yet, GM is spending untold billions to bring out a retro-inspired too-heavy two-door coupe (last… the Challenger already picked off at least some of the retro sales) and have stated that they’ll need 100K annual sales for a few years to make it profitable.

Is this wise?

What are the odds?

When the Camaro tanks, are we going to blame labor cost for that?

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

Okay everybody. Flip on CNN or Fox News.
There’s enough bad press today about the GM-BK that I will be surprised if anyone buys a new vehicle in the month of June. It will probably take the entire 18 months until the VOLT comes out just for dealers to recover from it all.

And since Obama is now the defacto CEO of GM now, I am sure he will dictate that NO DEALER will be allowed to mark up the VOLT when it hits the showrooms. And even if the dealers can, I’ll just bet that they won’t for fear of EVEN MORE bad press on the subject.

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jefro Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

The flip-flops don’t inspire me.

And I still want to remove the ICE.

It will happen in the future anyway if packs get better so might as well do it now.

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an_outsider Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

The Man and His Dream, the Tucker, euh.. Chevy Volt !

I honestly hope the Voltec technology becomes real cars & trucks in a near future and won’t collapse or disappear with GM’s bankruptcy (chap. 11 or 7)

Long life to E-REV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Tucker_Sedan

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

One more thing…

I do like the “Transformers Blue”.
That side shot does give the VOLT sort of an aggressive stance.
Very cool.

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Mark M Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

#113 Corvette Guy
” I am sure he will dictate that NO DEALER will be allowed to mark up the VOLT when it hits the showrooms”

I really hope so. I refuse to pay over invoice, let alone MSRP, or God forbid a mark up on top of that. The dealers can keep their holdback for their trouble, but that’s it.

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kdawg Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 5:27 pm

110 MarkH Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:57 pm .Maybe the rebate is in the wrong place.
Early adopters would buy the car at any price. Perhaps in place of the next bailout, the Feds should offer a rebate on used PHEV’s bought through dealerships. That would increase the incentive to buy in the first place because the trade in value would improve. Dealerships would get a second chance to take a cut of the rebate. Those of us who normally buy used might even get a bit of a break. The advantage to the government would be that the costs get passed to future administrations.
Now if I could sell the Canadian government on the concept …

=====================

Someone can correct me on this, but I belive the tax breaks go to the first 200,000 cars from each manufacturer. So there should be plenty to go around for some time.

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Mark Z Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 5:45 pm

#8 Koz

Thanks for the link to Chelsea’s blog. Reading the posts here for the past few days is like a tonic to lift the EV spirit in unusual economic times.

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Dan Petit Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 5:58 pm

A really fun thing would be for this site to offer a very simple
“select-a-color” Volt link-set, where, you have exactly the same 3 pictures of a Volt, but you could select from, say, 21 links so that you can quickly see what some of the possible colors would look like in the different kinds of light. Bright daytime, morning, evening, (under Sonic drive-in florescents), etc.
The same color looks different in the various available spectrum strengths of the various times of day. I think that would be a lot of fun to be able to do that.
One reason for lighter shades is to help reduce the accumulation of latent heat, so that the AC unit might be able to be sized somewhat smaller for a much lowered power drain of the pack.
This is really important, because the dark colors can actually build up so much latent heat here in Texas, that the power drain could actually initially be as much as another 400 watts for the first 20 to 30 minutes. So, for gen 1 at least, that would certainly be a major reason for restricting the colors to lighter shades. Some light colors can actually absorb more heat than other light colors. So, not all light colors would be a good idea at first.
I helped the talented EV Electrical engineers at Austin EV last summer to calibrate both the quantity R134a refrigerant charge as well as the special compressor oil charge on their Saturn EV conversion, which had a 1250 watt 150 volt electric A/C compressor. It was a light shade of a silver-bronze, but had no tinted glass. (The R134a refrigerant charge needed turned out to be 25 oz, and the compressor did not need any additional oil beyond the 10 oz “whole system” oil charge).
But the temperature was 102 degrees when we finished the calibrations study (getting it set up properly), and, the Compressor was using 1250 watts on that very hot afternoon. (As indicated on the digital watt demand meter on the dash). The color was a VERY important factor here, and, it is my understanding that the EV customer was completely happy with the cooling power resulting. This was an aftermarket “add-on” quality unit installed into a vehicle that once had about 30% more BTU’s of cooling power. I would not expect an AC compressor in a Voltec vehicle to come anywhere close to using that much power, as there have been many many exceptional design characteristics (low thermal inertia materials, etc.) brought into the Volt which causes a requirement for a far lower-rated AC compressor wattage demand, I would expect.
But light colors are REALLY important for us to accept here, it seems to me, at least at first.
Dan Petit Austin TX

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RB Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:05 pm

At 11:43 this morning I posted a comment which instantly went into moderation, from whence it has never emerged. Obviously I typed something that triggered something, but beyond that I have no idea why.

Essentially the comment said that before one put down a deposit it would be good to check if it gave any priority on delivery, which I think is a reasonable comment, and noted some recent experiences where the contrary seemed to have happened. However, I did not think it was an extreme comment in any way.

In effect a comment that goes to arbitration for 6 hours or more is deleted, in that no one is going to go back and read it — maybe that would be a better plan, as the present one is not working very well.

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Koz Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:50 pm

Charlie H #87

“Funny. There’s Beemers in Japan but no Impalas. Why do you suppose that is?

GM’s not getting whipped by Toyota because they can’t sell into Japan’s tiny car market, they’re getting whipped because Toyota’s building better cars. The Japanse will buy better cars than Toyotas and Hondas but not worse ones.

You can make all the excuses you like for GM but they’re on the brink of bankruptcy because they’ve made consistently bad decisions and bad cars for decades.

I knew where GM was headed in 1978 when I lived overseas in an LDC. I visited three of their major cities and each one contained a Toyota dealership of some sort with shiny new Toyotas in front of it but you could not find a place to buy a new American car because the cars we were selling and building were cars that no one in that country would want and we weren’t offering them something at a price that they could pay. Toyota decided they could develop a car people would like and they found a way to build it at a price those people could afford. Nobody in Detroit gave two cents’ worth of thought to the world market.

Nobody in Detroit bothered to fight the Japanese here, either, Detroit just ceded them the low end, small-car market on the theory that Americans didn’t want to be seen in tinny little cars and they’d move up to Real American Iron as soon as they had the money.

But a funny thing happened… Well, I guess it’s not so funny and I’m helping pay for it, now, aren’t I?

And GM remains infested with the same culture and people that put them on the ropes. It amazes me that people expect that same GM to build a “game changing” car of the future.”

I’ve had trouble reconciling your postition on this site until this post. Your non-Volt/non-GM comments are very well thought out and articulated. I have been in agreement with most if not all of them. The Volt/GM comments on the otherhand seem to come from another persona. In this comment, I see the two sides combined. While many people here will disagree with most of what you wrote, I agree with everything up to the last sentence. No matter how foolish, arrogant, and off-market GM has been in the past, that has no direct bearing on the validity of the Volt. It may affect how they market and thus what the ultimate success of the Volt will be but not the validity of the design. Even with GM’s faults and poor products, they have produced plenty of winners too in the timeframe you cover.

In short, it “amazes me” that you and some others that post here frequently have a the preconceived conviction that GM is incapable if building a relevent electric vehicle.

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statik Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

#113 CorvetteGuy said:

Okay everybody. Flip on CNN or Fox News.
There’s enough bad press today about the GM-BK that I will be surprised if anyone buys a new vehicle in the month of June. It will probably take the entire 18 months until the VOLT comes out just for dealers to recover from it all.

And since Obama is now the defacto CEO of GM now, I am sure he will dictate that NO DEALER will be allowed to mark up the VOLT when it hits the showrooms. And even if the dealers can, I’ll just bet that they won’t for fear of EVEN MORE bad press on the subject.
=====================

I don’t think you have to worry too much about sales in June, at least not them worsening. I think between the economy, the bad vibes on the bailout and the 6 months advanced warning on the filing, all the people that have written GM out of their car buying plans did so a long time ago.

July? Now that is another story. Once GM is inside the GSB, you have to figure those 1,000+ dealers (plus another 1,000-1,500 or so) go supernova and get the ‘Chrysler special’ …meaning they get their contracts chucked and are all done before the summer is (forget that Sept 2010 stuff, and ‘not disclosing the names to protect the business of the dealers affected’…that was only if GM had to abide by the contracts outside of bankruptcy).

Those dozen chevrolet dealerships within 25 miles of you are going to make you life hell for a couple months (…hopefully you are not on that ‘extended’ list). Prepare to sell/compete against dealers with new Malibus at $15,000, the Equinox at $18,000 and Corvettes at $39,000

…at least you know they will be gone in the fall, and you should be selling cars like it was 2005 again. (same amount of cars being sold by GM, with only half the dealers = good for the surivivors)

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noel park Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!

Can’t think of anything else to say. We’re off to Sears Point/Infineon for the weekend. Any good vibes to help the old 1917 Chevy hold together would be deeply appreciated! Catch you next week, if there’s still a GM to blog about.

Great comments today. Best regards to all.

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statik Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:04 pm

#126 noel park

LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!

Can’t think of anything else to say. We’re off to Sears Point/Infineon for the weekend. Any good vibes to help the old 1917 Chevy hold together would be deeply appreciated! Catch you next week, if there’s still a GM to blog about.

Great comments today. Best regards to all.
==========================

Good luck my friend, keep her on the track and right side up. Take some pictures of the event so we can all have a gander.

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Bob G Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

#10 FME III Says, ” … It still seems that a detail like that — “you can hear it” — qualifies as a minor thing that could be explained during preview drives as one of the things they’re still working on.”

My wife and I test drove a new Ford Fusion Hybrid, and I was surprised that it was very difficult for me to determine when the engine was running and when it wasn’t. That car was extremely smooth and quiet! I prefer to hear the whine of the electric motor and the hum of the ICE, but I suppose some prospective Volt buyers will expect smooth and quiet operation.

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Roger Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

how often will oil be changed? will the engine have an hour meter? mileage will kinda be irrelevant.

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RB Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

Reposted:
#6 Kevin R said “Glad to see this milestone arrive. As soon as GM allows, I want to put down my deposit.”
——————–
Before you do that, be sure to read the (sad) history of those who placed early deposits on Camaros, just recently released. The essence is that they did not get their cars first. Making a deposit simply placed them somewhere in line for one of the cars allocated to their dealership. Of course, since the Camaro has been a hot item, the dealer has an incentive to mark up cars received before giving cars to those who ordered one. (That’s not to say that any dealer did that, but it was a temptation.) It seems that for whatever reasons people who did not place early orders but who were willing and able to take the car available at the dealer got cars first.

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RB Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

Reposted to test moderation system:

Regarding Camaro orders, I did not order a Camaro, so I am saying all this 2nd hand. Maybe it is not true, or there are other factors. You may just wish to check it out.

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RB Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

More reposted as a further test

There is a discussion of Camaro orders (with many letters from those who ordered) on the GM fastlane blog (somewhere in the April archive, I think)

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RB Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:42 pm

So the previous post regarding a GM information system, should it ever come through, is what triggered moderation. It’s both Interesting and perplexing as to why that should be.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 8:49 pm

125 statik

I am hoping that the second half of June and most of July is saved by two things:

1) Transformers 2 promoting Camaros and Corvettes…

2) The dang factory getting my pre-sold Camaros delivered to us.

So here’s to “surviving”…. >>>>>> klink <<<<<<<<
(sound of beer bottle cap popping off the top)

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charlie h Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:41 pm

#123, Koz,

With respect to my preconceived notions on the Volt…

When a horse runs dead last in N out of N+1 races, you generally aren’t looking for a big win in that N+1st race, especially if it’s against the same field. I mean, I might bet $2 on it, for kicks, and because the bookies are giving 100,000:1 odds but you don’t bet what you can’t afford which, in GM’s case, is the $2 billion or so it takes to develop the Volt.

The current hybrid market is the first N races. GM’s entries are doing miserably. It’s a real mystery to me why GM doesn’t just pull the plug on all of them. The BAS cars can’t compete on price/performance and nobody who wants an SUV gives a rat’s pattootie about fuel economy or saving the planet.

And the fundamental problem with GM and the Volt is economics. People freak about Toyota pointing this out but, really, it’s painfully obvious… GM is pinning this car design to a battery that is certainly not ready economically and may also not be ready technically.

And GM’s plans are also depressingly timid. Just 10K units? I ran across an article about the Prius today… they’re boosting production to 50K units per month. In one month, this year not next or the year after, they’re going to build 5 times as many Priuses as all of GM’s first year output of Volts.

Moreover, and Toyota was kind enough not to point this out, what does GM own, exactly, if the Volt is a winner? There’s nothing in it that can’t be done with independent engineering and GM won’t own the key enabling tech… the battery chemistry and manufacturing process. Anybody can buy the battery when they’re ready and build their own electric car. Both Toyota and Ford do electric motors, high-voltage, high-current controls, charge control and everything else necessary to build a car with an electric or part-electric drivetrain. Where’s GM’s advantage?

The fundamentals of successful automobile manufacture remain the same. GM must compete and win in these fundamentals, like flex manufacturing, marketing acumen, time-to-market development, manufacturing cost, QC numbers, inherent design efficiencies, use of advanced structural materials.

I’d be more impressed with GM’s prospects if they were building a car that would compete with the Prius in price, Cd and mass. The Prius is something like 3100lbs. The best guess on the Volt is 3500lbs and it lacks the fifth seat that the Prius has. Lutz alluded to a Cd of .28. The Prius checks in at .25. This makes a big difference at 70mph.

Now, my last statement, on GM’s corporate culture…

First, GM hasn’t produced much in the way of winners. GM has an edge in the US market… there is a hard core of domestic buyers who will not buy an Asian car. This is what is keeping some of GM’s vehicles moving. GM has, finally, produced an example or two of cars that, while they aren’t winners, aren’t losers. The Malibu is OK. But that’s it… OK. I’ve ridden in Camrys and Accords and the Malibu and I’d consider a Malibu if it was priced a lot less because it’s OK, while the other two are nicer (especially the Accord). Which is pretty much what’s happening in the market… GM still needs massive incentives to move its cars.

Second, while it probably wasn’t nice to use the word “infested,” it’s still justified. The mistakes GM has made and the arrogance they show towards the market are legion and pervasive. Are there nothing but sycophants at GM? The New Camaro is sure loser. Sorry but it’s true. The market for two-door coupes is shrinking (GM cancelled the old Camaro because of low sales and ditto the Monte Carlo). Mustang sales were declining before the credit crunch and Challenger sales are below 3K units/month. GM spent a lot of money on this car and they need 100K sales/month to make the program profitable. They’re not going to get them. Yes, they had a nice batch of pre-orders and about 10-15K will go out with a markup. After that, it’s Red Tag Pricing. Look at the GTO. That was actually quite a lot of car for the money. Dead.

Some years ago… perhaps with the Austin Marina, people started to get acquainted with the idea that sedan boring. Modern sedans are pretty good and give the performance that used to be reserved for sporty coupes. And they have far more utility.

Retro sells… when it’s a useful design. The PT Cruiser proved this. I know people who bought one and they loved it for the space. The HHR does tolerably well because it has good interior space. The Camaro isn’t going to have the advantages of utility.

There was no justification for spending a lot of money on the Camaro but nobody stood up to the bosses and said, “No, we can’t do this,” or, if they did, they got shut down.

Only Wagoner and Lutz are gone or going. The rest of the crew is still in place. I don’t forecast a renaissance for GM any time soon.

(Quote)
ccombs Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:42 pm

I am sick of everyone saying gas is around $2 where they live- it is almost $2.90 here now, although they gouge you in silicon valley. It got to over *$4.50* last summer and I was commuting every day . Then again, Europeans and even Canadians are laughing at me right now for complaining. In any event, X-EVs will be quite nice even though they don’t make sense right now financially. I would rather pay the upfront than send my money to OPEC who does who-knows-what with it (okay so that is kind-of a simplification- a lot of it goes to Canada to fund the healthcare of pessimists like Statik )

Starting to shock my Austrian economics-sympathizing self by slowly beginning to agree with a euro-style gas tax. My rationale is if we’re going to be stuck paying crappy taxes for who-knows-what, why don’t we get rid of some of them and pay one that actually incentivizes useful behavior and makes it financially reasonable to buy an EV. And California needs money really bad… we gotta raise gas taxes. NOW if we were actually a free-market economy, none of this would have happened…but I’m giving up on that. Right now, I’m advocating for the most rational statist society possible, since apparently we don’t have any choice. Crappy crap or crappier crap? – I’ll take the crappy crap please.

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statik Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 7:23 am

#138 ccombs said:

I would rather pay the upfront than send my money to OPEC who does who-knows-what with it (okay so that is kind-of a simplification- a lot of it goes to Canada to fund the healthcare of pessimists like Statik )
================
Hey!

I would respond, but my head is hurting a little, so I’m going down to my corner Tim Hortons/walk-in clinic and getting a MRI…just to be sure I’m OK.

They finally got the new Signa HDxt ones (been out for over a year already, gesh), with the Cube app…3D ftw.

/did I get you excited there Lyle? I know I did.

(Quote)
EVO Says:
May 28th, 2009 at 10:28 am

I’m just trying to make our excesses a little more reasonable on this thread. I smell convergence towards Volt support. This is from Electric Vehicle Owner, so feel free to skip this post if I’m on your black list.

No, Eco, you probably wouldn’t, based on historical full hybrid actual driving behaviors. Visual cues are what matter most in driving (that’s what lets you know that a silent brick wall may not be what you want to run into), Harley loud pipes nonsense notwithstanding. Also, you still have the sound of the tires on the road, although the Volt mule test drive journalist reports have been inconsistent on that topic. Existing full hybrids already do the behavior you describe some of the time (say, on a cold morning). More than a million people got used to it easily without doing weird driving behaviors (in fact, most never noticed the difference in the first place – give retail consumer cluelessness a little credit), so I suppose GM fans could also manage to deal with this non-issue.

Prius quiet on the generator turn on tells me that the Volt is more than ready for prime time this very second. We already have some folks complaining that Priuses are too quiet, so the Volt is obviously already quiet enough with the generator turn on. Tagamet, Pruises don’t come on with a BANG. Have you ever been near one?

For all those fearful of the danger of electric drive quietness, manufacturers now provide vehicles with newfangled automatic special safety sound makers that they call “horns.” Drivers can control these automated sound makers through fine motor coordination of their hands about the steering wheel, to accompany useful hand gestures and gutteral utterances towards other road users.

It would take a worldwide depression to get back down to $2 a gallon gas, Eco. Why do you want a worldwide depression?

Schmeltz, don’t make the perfect be the enemy of the good. GM needs to get these things on the road and there’s no such thing as a perfect vehicle. Why do you think there are hundreds of makes/models, some with more than 55 variations? Consumer preference is all over the map and one vehicle make/model can’t give everyone everything they want (or else we’d still all be driving 40 mpg model As).

@ LauraM 78

Not two years. Just slap a GM badge on Priuses and/or Camry hybrids and Bob’s your uncle. It’s called badge engineering. Perhaps GM could do that with the Toyota Matrix and call it a Pontiac Vibe. I know, crazy thinking on my part.

@ k-dawg 79

Sure you can defend the Volt on pure economics. It’s called consumer preference and consumer demand. Especially for genuinely new product at a middle of the pack price.

Tex-Arl 81
That result never happen with existing full hybrid drivers when that exact situation/noise already happens with them. But I guess you better not ever rent a full hybrid if you think you’ll drive it into tree.

“Golly, I was just driving along and a noise (engine starting) startled me and the car drove into the tree.”

24 Schmeltz
“it sounds like they (GM) wants this car to be flawless , and I welcome that!”

30 Eco
“Given our conditioning, having the engine start up at seemingly random times would be a bit disconcerting. Imagine coasting up to stop sign and applying the brakes, and then the engine comes on…that would feel weird…until I got used to it. I’d probably apply the brakes harder just from instinct.”
“I want to start my own countdown clock…for when gasoline hits 2.00 a gallon again. Won’t be long now.”

75 k-dawg
“You cant justify a Volt purchase based on economic factors “

(Quote)
Larry McFall Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Do I understand that the picture we are seeing is called the “Chevy Volt Integration Vehicle”? 1st, what does that all mean? The picture doesn’t look much like the vehicle that we all seen and kinda took a liking to. Has the technological application changed also since I went to sleep and woke up?

Come on, we don’t need something with GM/Chevy logo on it that looks like a toy. If you can spend money on your big honkin vehicles, put together something like you showed in the previous pictures.

Tells us the Chevy Volt fans about this new Chevy Volt Integration Vehicle!! And NO crapola. Gives us the skinny on how you have changed ideas from the original concept. Be up front with us for a change. We already know how the space age plastic did such wonders for the world.

(Quote)
Larry McFall Says:
May 29th, 2009 at 5:38 pm

By the way! I assume that the “Chevy Volt Integration Vehicle” is now complete seeing how it is Friday before Monday the 1st of June. That is just the day that the 1st CVIV is suppose to be completed which I am sure that will be right on schedule.

I hope to see something to the affect next Tuesday the 2nd as I am really pulling for the team. However, there is that ole nagging feeling of my hometown losers are banking on another win that, they never get.

I hope that Detroit-Hamtramck Plant is full of hope and energy as my 110 AC Volt outlet is just awaiting a Volt to plug in.

Keep us up to snuf on the action. A Volt believer!

(Quote)
GmsAJoke Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 2:59 pm

About God D@@ time.

(Quote)
Fran McFall Says:
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:57 pm

OK! Me and my husband is waiting to see something on the site about the “Final Integration Vehicle”. Let’s not start missing dates. June 1 is what I see as the drop dead date on the first completed integration vehicle so let’s see it.

You’ve got the technology worked out and there is no reason to not have some data out, here it is the 2nd and we want you on top of this issue. We think a lot of GM but we want to be able to think a lot more by the actions we see.

Get off the pot. Let’s due it and by the way, on your “Want List” there is 48,000 + sign-ups. To limit that down, could there be a GM list of fills by a down payment. Back many years ago that was pretty common to put some money up and have your vehicle made for you at the factory. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a special attached plate for less say the first 10,000 buyers. Kinda of like ford did on the Mustang.

(Quote)

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Assembly of the First True Chevy Volt Integration Vehicles Begins Today

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