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Toyota Reportedly Planning to Give its Hybrid Technology to GM

May 25th, 2009 | Posted in: Competitors, Hybrid

An unconfirmed report appears in the Japanese newspaper, the Daily Yomiuri, citing senior executives which claims Japanese automaker Toyota is prepared to give its core hybrid technology to GM.

Toyota supposedly wishes to offer GM the technology that underlies the Prius and other Toyota vehicles should GM go into bankruptcy. The intellectual property under consideration is patented technology for “increasing fuel economy by controlling the movement of the engine and the motor.”

Such a move reportedly would benefit Toyota by allowing its technology to become the de facto world-wide standard thereby continuing to accelerate its improvement and cost effectiveness.

Toyota is said to be concerned that failure of GM to successfully restructure could further collapse the North American auto market, potentially bringing down suppliers, and having significant repercussions on Toyota. Toyota is expected to post losses for two consecutive years and the return of the North American market is felt to be critical for Toyota’s recovery.

Toyota believes its hybrid technology is superior to what GM has developed thus far and is concerned that failure to achieve high fuel efficiency is one reason for GM’s current plight. GM is described as having fallen significantly behind Toyota in developing fuel efficient vehicles because of a long-standing focus on hydrogen fuel cell development, a market for which has not materialized.

Also, Toyota is claiming this action would ease US-Japan tensions as the automotive market plunges deeper into crisis.

GM and Toyota already have a joint assembly plant in California called NUMMI in which Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe are built. No capital alliance between the companies in known to exist.

GM sources have advised GM-Volt.com that this report is “unlikely” to be accurate but that “stranger things” have been reported over the last few months. Toyota has also formally denied this plans to several news agencies, with a spokesperson declaring “we’re not considering it at the moment.”

Source (Yomiuri)

Posted by: Lyle

104 Responses to “Toyota Reportedly Planning to Give its Hybrid Technology to GM”

statik Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:19 am

If this were true, the world on these forums would surely implode. How could we have our daily Prius vs. Volt, and GM vs. Toyota wars? How would we pass the time waiting for the Volt to come out?

….sounds pretty unlikely to me too. Why would Toyota do this? Certainly not at no cost…just doesn’t make sense. I could see licensing it out in some form I suppose.

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old man Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:21 am

Do not think so.

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Voltair Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:28 am

Sounds like a rumor generated to claim Toyota’s hybrid technology is superior. (Toyota transferring some of its manufacturing efficiency technology would probably be more useful to GM but less exotic sounding).

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NZDavid Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:34 am

Given sales of the Prius compared to everything else, it is already the defacto standard!

I agree Toyota is very worried about the effect a GM implosion would have upon its North American manufacturing base. However, giving GM its tech, bankrupt, or not, would have NO effect upon the suppliers for years to come.

Seems like a bit of truth puffed up to represent something else.

Not going to happen.

LJGTVWOTR

/I really want an Ampera over the iMiev, and the Volt.

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old man Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:38 am

I can see toyota wanting to trade their technology for the Voltec. and this time it would be GM saying “do not think so”

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Dr.Science #11 on the list Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:39 am

The technology Ford uses for their hybrid program is Toyota based.
Why re-invent the wheel ? (so to speak)

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Tim Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:39 am

Our 10 year old, outdated tech doesn’t stink…

Let’s get GM to try it… NOT!

(this was the Daily Yomiuri’s jab at the “stupid Americans”)

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Adrian Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:40 am

Toyota worried about GM’s fate? Does MS worry about Apple? I think they want to get part cost lowered.

GM’s failure has almost nothing to do with hybrids. This is a slick PR annoucement. They come out saying how superior they are and how they worry about us Americans and our jobs.

This link goes with past discussions. More about the coming tax increase in 2010 on the people who could afford the Volt…
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

It is also nice because you can see how much you will pay before tax go up the first time (since taxes will have to go up again to pay for the 10 trillion $ debt too).

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Schmeltz Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:41 am

Doesn’t make sense to me even for the reasons described in the article.

Happy Memorial Day everyone and thank you to those out there who are serving or have served.

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JackFlash Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:51 am

I would just like to say how impressed I am that Toyota wants to help out GM, what a benevolent company they are. Yes, GM should buy into their competitor’s last generation technology, that’s the ticket. I am sure the Chinese would like their tech, might be a good move for Toyota to hook up with an emerging market like China, maybe they can kill off China’s fledgling car companies while they are still in the nest. Beware of Greeks, I mean Japanese bearing gifts.

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Tagamet Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:56 am

I can see Toyota acting in “enlightened self-interest”. If they DID, isn’t it conceivable that the hymotion could be setup to kick in the gas when the battery got to the 30% level. It might solve any “transition issues” (if they do exist)(g). I know it’s setup on a demand need now, but why not on a battery deletion level? john 1701 can help us out here.
Be well,
Tag
Celebrate our lost Veterans
then
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS

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Van Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:13 am

Lets see, we have a story where Toyota is reportedly doing something good. And the result? Many posters do not believe the story because it does not make sense for Toyota to do something good. Others say if Toyota is doing this, they are motivated by some undisclosed evil calculation. As for me, I say lets wait until folks authorized to speak for Toyota and GM respond.

Does anyone know if Ford pays Toyota for the use of Toyota hybrid technology?

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Matt Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:13 am

#11
“The technology Ford uses for their hybrid program is Toyota based.
Why re-invent the wheel ? (so to speak)”
—————
The Ford system isn’t Toyota based. Ford and Toyota developed their systems independently, realized they were arriving at similar results, and entered into a patent sharing agreement to avoid legal tangles.

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Matt Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:14 am

Why would GM take Toyota’s hybrid technology? GM’s Two-Mode system is actually a generation ahead of the Toyota Synergy Drive in the realm of power-split hybrids.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:18 am

Heh, I didn’t realize it was April 1st!

I won’t make any guesses as to where this particular rumour comes from, but I’d pass on any result from such a transaction.
If I wanted a Prius I’d buy one.

I want a Volt!

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Joe Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:19 am

Toyota again is trying to make itself look good. First of all, Toyota’s hybrid technologies are not really that great. It is very limited to smaller vehicles Believe it or not, but the two-mode hybrid system on GM vehicles is a much better system than what’s on the Prius and the two-mode has not even reached it maturity, yet.

I bet GM is laughing at Toyota, if in fact it’s true they have made that offer. Oh, that Toyota company is so so smart. They can not do any wrong. What a joke!
GM will bury them with technology after they shed their debts!!!

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Preseli Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:27 am

GM won’t bury anyone if it is owned by the government and the auto union. Why on earth does the UAW get a 39% share of GM? This is worse that taxpayer-funded bonuses for AIG execs that helped bury that company.

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kent beuchert Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:28 am

GM’s dual mode hybrid system is far more efficient than Toyota’s one-o-a-kind Prius. Technically the GM system is much cleaner
and more flexible. I see no reason for GM to adopt Toyota’s complicated and inflexible Prius technology. And the idea that building hybrids will save GM at a time when hybrid sales have collapsed, makes me wonder how dumb the creator of this fnatasy really is. It’s not even plausible.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:32 am

I could see Toyota doing this as a last ditch effort to stop GM from leap frogging Toyota with superior Volt tech. Toyota knows it could outperform GM if both were producing the same techs, so they would happily give away their Pries tech.

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charlie h Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:41 am

The Freep says no:

http://www.freep.com/article/20090525/BUSINESS01/90525007/1014/rss13

Preseli asks, “Why on earth does the UAW get a 39% share of GM?”

Because it’s an unfunded liability GM negotiated into union contracts. They are owed this.

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Herm Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:41 am

The GM dual mode system is very expensive (GM engineers have said so), it uses friction clutches and gears to meld two Priuses “transmissions” together.. it is mostly applicable to large trucks and high power systems. The Toyota/Ford system is a simpler, reliable and cheaper solution.

The GM solution may be more “flexible” since it can be a drop-in replacement for existing transmissions in large trucks but it definitely is not simpler or cleaner and a lot more expensive.

#19 kent beuchert Says:

“Technically the GM system is much cleaner
and more flexible. I see no reason for GM to adopt Toyota’s complicated and inflexible Prius technology.”

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Jeff Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:43 am

Due to the cost of an EREV vehicle (40 mile AER), I think that is fair to say that GM can not rely on the tech to meet the new CAFE standards. It appears that the Toyota/Ford type of hybrid powertrain have become a HUGE asset for these companies. The question…Is GM’s BAS (mild hybrid) or 2 Mode (full hybrid) competitive? The sales volume has not proven it, but the market will change with new MPG requirement. Is GM’s BAS (mild hybrid) or 2 Mode (full hybrid) more capable of raising their fleet MPG than the Toyota/Ford hybrid? Of course, diesels may become popular in the US…yet to been seen though.

The new CAFE standard may require the sharing of tech for the auto industry…so I would not be surprised.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:51 am

There’s a billion dollar difference between “give to” and “license to”.
Once again more of our tax dollars flowing overseas.
It may happen, but it should not happen.

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CDAVIS Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:01 am

______________________________________________________
If true, that would be a smart chess move on Toyota’s part:

Toyota has a lot of time, equity, momentum, and “face” invested in Series Hybrid.

Toyota is better positioned if GM supports the Toyota Parallel Hybrid standard (must use gas) than GM gaining traction with GM’s own Voltec Series Hybrid standard (don’t have to use has).

Toyota would rather give GM their Series Hybrid technology and go head-to-head w/ GM on series hybrid than be challenged by a “new kid on the block” GM Voltec Platform.

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes on why Toyota would do it to slow-down/kill Voltec.

It would basically be Toyota paying GM to kill the Voltec Program. Sort of like the Euro anti trust trouble Intel has found itself in lately as a result of Intel paying (by giving free use of its chip technology) to competing chip makers to stop R&D of competing technology.

_____________________________________________________

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Cautious Fan Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:04 am

#1 Statik

….sounds pretty unlikely to me too. Why would Toyota do this? Certainly not at no cost…just doesn’t make sense. I could see licensing it out in some form I suppose
_______________________________________________________

I agree. This sounds strange to me. Maybe the message is intended for the new (soon to be) owners of GM. “If you’re serious about fuel efficiency, license our technology.” If the new owners agree, this would be a huge strategic win for Toyota. Plus, by GM spending less on their own R&D, this reduces the liklehood of surprise technologies (EREV) overthrowing Toyota.

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nataraj Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:13 am

—
because of a long-standing focus on hydrogen fuel cell development, a market for which has not materialized.
—

Oh yes, its the market’s fault !

Reminds me of Reagan’s “Mistakes were made” speech.

The reason GM etc focussed on hydrogen was to defeat the California zero emission mandate – where autocompanies took the line that electric cars are impracticle unlike hydrogen cars which are just around the corner.

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Van Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:24 am

There are now several stories on the internet where Toyota says it is NOT mulling over “giving” hybrid technology to GM.

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Keith Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:29 am

Toyota denies GM hybrid deal
Toyota denied a Japanese media report Monday that it was studying a possible deal to offer its hybrid technology to General Motors Corp.

This came from the Toronto Star .

http://www.wheels.ca/

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Tall Pete Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:46 am

This one makes no sense. Even on the brink of bankruptcy, GM is still a giant and you do not insult a giant by offering this kind of ‘help’. It’s the best way to increase your opponent’s motivation to beat you to the ground in the future.

Must be false because it just cannot be true. As simple as that. End of discussion

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CDAVIS Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 11:06 am

______________________________________________________
Memorial Day comment:

My heart, prayers, and admiration go to all the families who have had a family member die in the line of duty defending our country and freedoms.

Thank you to all the veterans and current military personnel that have put their own lives at risk to defend our great country.

Thank you Lyle for tying the importance of the GM-VOLT project to America’s national security; it is spot-on.

America has allowed itself to become hostage to foreign sourced energy. This is something we have voluntarily done to ourselves. It was not imposed on us. It’s not due to elaborate conspiracy theories. It is due to the average American not willing to stand up and make a contributable difference. We can not depend on the government to get us out of this hole. We need to dig ourselves out person-by-person, company-by-company, idea-by-idea. It will take the power and determination of the individual American; the power of one. The power of Lyle getting behind GM-VOLT.com. The power of one.

I am the owner of a small venture capital firm and my firm has increasingly shifted its focus and portfolio investments towards organizations that are materially doing something (beyond PR marketing hype) about getting America self reliant with regards to energy. Some of the investments my firm is making may not be the technical best use of our available capital resources from a traditional evaluation standpoint but I believe that my firm needs to be part the solution outside of traditional technical analytics. The power of one.

I have had several of my business collogues ask me why I’m personally spending my $ and time on this energy issue. Why I’m spending dollars to put up solar panels on my roof. Why I’m ordering a GM-VOLT. For me the answer is simple. I have an eight year old son. He will be 18 in the blink of an eye. Given the current trends, there is a very real chance he may end up being drafted to fight a war we find ourselves in because of our dependence of foreign energy. My son may end up dead or badly injured. If that day comes, I need to know that I myself did what I could to steer us in another direction. The power of one.
______________________________________________________

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Nelson Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 11:30 am

Toyota will do anything to de-rail GM from launching the Volt as scheduled or sooner. Beware of the Trojans bearing gift.

Have a Great Memorial Day.

NPNS!

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Jeff Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 11:32 am

Item of interest related to this thread for this Memorial Day weekend…

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=148828
http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/052409/spo_443209109.shtml

“NASCAR will use a Toyota Camry hybrid tonight, marking the first time a hybrid has been used as a pace car.”

It is interesting that the first hybrid powertrain to be used as a NASCAR pace car is Toyota’s hybrid (HSD)…not one of GM’s hybrid powertrains (BAS, 2 mode, or EREV) or even Ford’s version.

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GXT Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 11:44 am

18. kent wrote:
“…Toyota’s one-o-a-kind Prius…. I see no reason for GM to adopt Toyota’s complicated and inflexible Prius technology.”
——————————————————————-
The Toyota system is used in a number of vehicles. I’m not sure of the exact number, but it is at least 6 (Prius, Camry, Highlander, RX, GS, and LS). The big benefit is the low cost (relative to the BMW/Mercedes/Chrysler/GM two-mode system) as can be seen in the wide adoption of it VS GM’s low-volume sales of two-mode rebadges.

16. joe wrote:
“First of all, Toyota’s hybrid technologies are not really that great. It is very limited to smaller vehicles Believe it or not, but the two-mode hybrid system on GM vehicles is a much better system than what’s on the Prius and the two-mode has not even reached it maturity, yet.”
——————————————————————–
The two-mode is limited to EXPENSIVE vehicles because it is so EXPENSIVE (I guess that is what you get when you design something with Mercedes and BMW). They each have their own strengths, but Toyota’s system is widely available (relative to two-modes) because of the cost and is theoretically only a larger battery and electric motor away from working on larger vehicles (plus it already works on the Highlander and RX utility vehicle).

In regards to the comments about Toyota wanting Voltec… this is laughable. GM has nothing that Toyota doesn’t already have. Batteries? No. Toyota could buy them just as GM has. Electric engines? Nothing special there. Using a generator to charge a battery (whenever that is good enough for GM to show us)? The Prius already does that. The programming? Toyota probably has more experience here than GM. GM has nothing unique here as evidenced by the ease with which Chrysler was able to leap-frog them with such little fan-fair and Toyota was able to start testing plug-in Priuses some time ago.

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DonC Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

#30 CDAVIS

Amen.

*****************************

On the main topic, it’s a long way between considering something and actually doing it. I have a hard time believing any transfer is imminent. Some technology sharing would make sense but not a transfer of a mature technology like the split drive system. If Ford can license the technology why not GM?

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Van Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

“An unconfirmed report appears in the Japanese newspaper, the Daily Yomiuri, citing senior executives which claims Japanese automaker Toyota is prepared to give its core hybrid technology to GM.”
This report has been denied by Toyota, apparently it is completely false.
“Toyota supposedly wishes to offer GM the technology that underlies the Prius and other Toyota vehicles should GM go into bankruptcy.”
Toyota has no such desire.
“The intellectual property under consideration is patented technology for “increasing fuel economy by controlling the movement of the engine and the motor.”
There is no intellectual property under consideration.
“Such a move reportedly would benefit Toyota by allowing its technology to become the de facto world-wide standard thereby continuing to accelerate its improvement and cost effectiveness.”
False premise, as noted before, HSD is the de facto standard.
“Toyota is said to be concerned that failure of GM to successfully restructure could further collapse the North American auto market, potentially bringing down suppliers, and having significant repercussions on Toyota.”
This argument was made by GM prior to WAGS being fired.
“Toyota is expected to post losses for two consecutive years and the return of the North American market is felt to be critical for Toyota’s recovery.”
True, but lends absolutely no support to the premise of the misinformation being repeated in this thread.
“Toyota believes its hybrid technology is superior to what GM has developed thus far and is concerned that failure to achieve high fuel efficiency is one reason for GM’s current plight. GM is described as having fallen significantly behind Toyota in developing fuel efficient vehicles because of a long-standing focus on hydrogen fuel cell development, a market for which has not materialized.”
Since the source of this story is not Toyota, this is simply putting words in Toyota’s mouth.
“Also, Toyota is claiming this action would ease US-Japan tensions as the automotive market plunges deeper into crisis.”
More sheer fiction

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Frank D Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

I’m sure the Voltec drivetrain has been engineered by pretty smart engineers here at home.

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Unni Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

Lets speculate

Mostly i think this may be a leaked version of some talks on NUMMI developing a Hybrid car. So GM and Toyota will have same hybrid and inturn the news will be correct in some way ( its only GM label over Toyota chassis/engine )

Some old news said “As Pontiac brand is dead ,future of vibe and next gen vibe / replacement was in talks, and they were looking for a corolla based platform” . Speculation part is ” As Toyota is now mostly looking on expanding hybrids, There is a chance of vibe successor to be a hybrid”.

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RB Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

Today I am at Disney World.
You all can sing along “It’s a small small world… It’s a small world af-ter all.”

/also enjoying the tea cups

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jbfalaska Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

In times of War, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The enemy of both is oil addiction for both Japan and the US. I hope all the major manufacturers combine forces to move to electricity. We shall see.

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CDAVIS Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

______________________________________________________
Will We Have Another 10 Wasted Years?

“…New sources of energy must be developed to avoid not only price wars, but real wars to control limited supplies. There is already growing discussion about how American military forces might have to defend oil fields in Central Asia. It would be far better for America to find its energy closer to home…”

That was written 10 years ago in the Washington Times:
Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2000/oct/06/20001006-012118-6300r/

Let’s not spend another 10 years believing our Government will guide America towards Energy Security. Despite its well articulated intent highlighted at each election cycle, the Government has not in over 30 years of energy related programs advanced America’s Energy Security. The situation has only gotten worse. We individual American’s are to blame. We are the ones that have the power. The individual American is the energy consumer. Each of us has the power to make a contribution towards Energy Security. It is a fallacy to expect the Government to be our proxy for what we at the individual consumer level are responsible for.

Demand EV/EREV – No Plug No Sale.
Learn the truth about why Nuclear Energy is good for America.
Get made as hell that we as a country are literally over a barrel.
______________________________________________________

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statik Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

#38 RB said:

Today I am at Disney World.
You all can sing along “It’s a small small world… It’s a small world af-ter all.”

/also enjoying the tea cups
====================

I guess we are all making the pilgramage this summer, lol. My little guy made me do the teacups 7 times, lol. (nice use of the ‘/’ btw…I like that)

/sorry about the gum on seats

…and fast pass that Winnie the Pooh ride, the lineup is very deceiving, lol

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

The Voltec is superior to whatever the Prius uses.
As batteries improve, Voltec will be that much better.
With Voltec, we are talking about not using gas for up to 40 miles.
Taking the Prius technology is a step backwards in my opinion.

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john1701a Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

GM’s Two-Mode system is actually a generation ahead of the Toyota Synergy Drive in the realm of power-split hybrids.
_____________________

What does “ahead” mean?

Toyota’s system has already been implemented in vehicles from compact to a 7-passenger offering towing capacity of 3,500 pounds.

Two-Mode has only been implemented for 8-cylinder engines with a 6-cylinder on the way. There’s nothing indicating a practical configuration to compete with either Camry-Hybrid or Fusion-Hybrid or Prius.

Not being able to compete in the 4-cylinder market is a major shortcoming for GM. Will they really allow Toyota & Ford to have that entire consumer base… not to mention meet upcoming MPG requirements.

Financial recovery and loan payback are feeding rumors & speculation. Too bad it’s so difficult to have constructive discussions about those vital needs.

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Van Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

We are not responding to our energy needs because a majority of Americans elect Democrats who oppose Wind in their backyards, nuclear anywhere, off shore drilling and mandating plug in vehicles like the Volt. It is unfair to blame the Clinton administration, the battery breakthrough making plug-ins possible occurred during his administration. Bush and Cheney pursued fool cell development rather than building lithium ion battery production facilities, which had the effect of leaving us more dependent on foreign oil at the end of his term than at the beginning. Now we have Obama saying all the right things, but what is a “goal” of 1 million PHEV by 2015 without benchmarks? Time will tell

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old man Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

#43

I think Voltec will take care of the 4 cylinder market for GM. I think Toyota knows it also.

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Joe Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

Many on this web site keep forgetting that new technologies are very expensive at first.Take the flat screen television or new CPU chips, just to name a few. If anyone knows this, it’s GM. They’ve leaned their lesson the hard way. Knowing this, GM is aligning itself for the future. Those auto companies who do respond will get caught at a great disadvantage like GM did with small economy cars.

I bet Toyota is going full steam ahead with plug-ins although they are saying plug-in do not make sense. Later, they will say “oh we made a mistake and we are now starting to design them” and then claim to have just started to design them. This way it will look like it does not take them nearly as long as GM to design ,because they are so much smarter. Toyota is known to use a lot of psychology and are not as honest as you might think.

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john1701a Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

I think Voltec will take care of the 4 cylinder market for GM.
_________________________

The 4-cylinder market has a target PRICE in the mid-20’s for midsize.

GM’s approach of one-price-fits-all, you’ll have to pay mid-30’s, is far from addressing that market.

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Jeff Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

#31 Nelson

Toyota will do anything to de-rail GM from launching the Volt as scheduled or sooner. Beware of the Trojans bearing gift.

Have a Great Memorial Day.

NPNS!
————————————————————————-
You may be more right than you know. Only a “good enough tech” is needed to meet the new CAFE standards…not “leap frog EREV tech” (arguably aka Mahattan project tech, Apollo space program tech, etc.). I did not consider EREV “leap frog tech” until the battery pack price is reduced. Any of the major auto companies can make an EREV…but what is the a cost to the buyer?

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old man Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

The price will be very high when the Volt is first marketed but will drop quickly, in my opinion as do most electronics. An electric generator has to be much less costly to manufacture than an automatic tramsmition and a CV joint system. And I think battery price reduction will lead the way as manufactures get up to speed with their system developement.

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Van Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

Toyota going full steam ahead? Toyota has announced it will produce about 500 prototype plug-ins with lithium batteries by the end of 2009 and put them into fleets in Japan, Europe and the USA. I would expect the production intent prototypes of the Volt to be available by June 2009, or perhaps 6 months ahead of the Plug-in Prius. So it is reasonable that the Volt will be available (limited availability) during 2011, but by the end of 2011, if the Plug-in Prius proves itself in fleet performance, that Toyota would offer a PHEV-20 for less money than the Volt. Time will tell.

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RSBaker Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

This is a joke if true. GM should tell them what they can do with their Prius. Ether Toyota is trying in some cynical way to undermine the Volt because it knows Volt is better or it is trying to get ahead of any nationalistic backlash against Foreign manufacturers because of the financial collapse of GM and Chrysler, or some combination of the two. I actually don’t think this is true. The press is filled with lot of highly dubious and speculative stories.

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Koz Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

Unni #37

If there is any truth to this rumor, Unni has the only logical explanation. This is not new either. I think there were some discsussions about possibly making a shared HSD vehicle at NUMMI a year or two ago. The current Vibe engine is a Toyota engine, so this makes some sense. Toyota gets brownie points and GM gets a short term fix.

Personally, I think they should still develop Voltec Lite and implement it in that low end high efficiency market if it works out. 12KWH battery, 6 yr warranty, 2/3 discharge cycle, mountain mode (only discharge to 50% before charge sustaining in mountain mode), 35-40KW generator with 3 Cyl atkinson, and 90KW motor/power electronics.

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Kenneth Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

If this story has any truth to it at all, Toyota probably does have a hidden agenda. Probably not to take over GM but to get it’s technology into the marketplace. If it is seeing a severe future loss, why not offer something like this to GM. If they do bite, then Toyota had a stronger hold in the North American market with their associate and counterpart GM. They will still have a loss, but future returns are greater for both companies.

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ccombs Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

I just talked with Tesla, and they have seen an 8/10% drop in battery price yearly with commercial cells. I think the newer techs, like Li-FePO4 and the Volt’s Li-MnO are going to drop even faster. EREV is certainly more expensive than Prius tech now, but I believe that it will get closer in the future and may win on operating costs. Gas is almost $3 a gallon ($2.85) here in Silicon Valley and climbing. I just hope that GM can survive to produce a much cheaper gen II and III Volt, since I don’t know how great sales will be for gen I.

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Dan Petit Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

I’m not buying it whatsoever. This just sounds like a fearful marketing ploy to me. Toyota Motors would never do any such thing. EREV technologies are going to really sink Toyota toward a permanent number two situation very soon. Unless, of course, Toyota gets going on the EREV design pathway.
The motoring public is still fed up with pertro-dictatorial price volatility as set up by everyone involved with petroleum and fossil fuels. This anger will eventually spill over onto Toyota motors for not getting onto a pathway for EREV technologies.
One thing that the financial strains at GM has done is that all the superfluous expenditures have gone away.
Superfluous expenditures at all other OEM’s are still going on full blast, all in the name of “marketing”. They are wasting valuable time and funding which must go immediately toward EREV propulsion systems R&D.
Toyota apparently is trying all manner of “trial balloons”, all of which are turning out to be made of lead. Other OEM’s had just better stop fiddling-around with denial and “BS statements” and get going on their R&D pathways for EREV. Otherwise, your customers are going to be extremely angry with the very BAD executive decisions to delay very much further.
Executives will begin loosing their jobs in about 17 more months.
Voltec EREV’s are going to sweep the planet. You execs are warned. You marketers are warned. You “advisers” are warned. If all of you are not worried sick by now, then you must not be sufficiently technically-competent for your positions. Toyota should be asking GM for technical help, not the other way around. And, paying lots of money for it!!!
Dan Petit Austin TX.

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jeffhre Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

Part I. What if Toyota enjoyed the position of having the green leadership mantle with the worlds best selling hybrids. And What if Toyota was planning to spend money to extend the brand with plug in options, and noticed that they would be spending to develop with technology that would be eclipsed by Voltec drive trains.

What could Toyota do to disrupt any attempt to dethrone the split modes international green halo position? Develop a new technology to replace the split mode that cost billions to develop and is only now earning them the margins of conventional vehicles? Hmmm, what to do, what to do?

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JEC Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Off topic, so move along if your looking for related substance.

Just got done visiting Honda showroom and test drove 3 different cars.
1) Fit-Sport sticker $16,500
2) Insight sticker $20,500
3) Civix LX sticker $17,800

The Fit was interesting. I liked the hatchback and the various seat arrangements for differing storeage requirements. The sport comes with paddle shifters, which I am not a fan of. I would love a manual xmision, but the wife is not “able” to learn (I tried to teach her ONCE!…enough said). Visibility is very good, with lots of glass.

The Insight, in my opinion really does not make the grade. I was VERY disapointed. A couple very obvious issues, were the rear seating is terrible. I am only 6 foot, but I could not sit straight up and use the rear headrest, since the ceiling raked down at such a hard angle, and my head would hit it.
The other issue I had was the engine shutdown/restart, which I found very disconcerting. The hesitation when you pressed the accelerator was, to me unacceptable. The engine felt like it was coughing to get going. My real problem is that this may be ok, when the car is new, but what about in 10 years, when the engine tuning is not so fine, and the car either hesitates more severely or worse yet never restarts. I understand the fuel savings of this mode, but I see to many issues with doing this to your engine repeatedly.

The Civic, in my opinion was a solid performer. I liked the ride, and noise level the best of the 3 cars. I started scratching my head on why anyone would buy the Fit, when the Civic seems to be the better of the two cars. The only difference would be the hatchback vs. sedan, but after that, the cars are basically equipped the same. The Civic actually had a slightly better mpg than the Fit, at 36mpg hwy. I did like the more open feel of the Fit, but then again, I liked the more secure feeling of the Civic…hard to have it both ways.

Anyway, just thought I would share my experience.

BTW: I really do not enjoy spending my time in a showroom with the sales guys and the long winded “what will it take to get you to buy TODAY!”. I was straight up with the sales guy from the beginning, that I was NOT buying today, only testing. But of course the manager had to make a last second plea, which fell on deaf ears. I really do not blame them, since it is their job to sell cars, and they know if the customer walks out the door, the chances for a sale decrease dramatically. It took me about 3 hours to get those 3 test drives, and I am not looking forward to visiting the other dealers (Ford, Toyota, Chevy) in the near future.

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jeffhre Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

Part II. GM is developing the Voltec drive, at a cost of billions and essentially in the midst of a bankruptcy. It appears that the technology is capable of a leapfrog beyond all those on the market, but at a steep price. It may take years of concerted effort combining the very best development engineering plus the most efficient manufacturing capabilities GM has ever employed to turn a future profit. In short, a long sustained relentless development process, on the order of Toyota’s ten year quest to improve the split mode system and refine the Prius.

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JEC Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

57 JEC (me)

One thing I noticed when I popped the hood on the Civic was the dipstick. When I pulled it out it was a completely plastic, bright orange dipstick.

I just bothered me, but I could not put my finger on it, until now. I realized that every car I have ever owned had a thin, flexible metal dipstick, but with the Honda Civic’s plastic dipstick, what happens when your pulling out and naturally bend it towards you? Oh crap, in the winter especially, I can see this thing breaking and worse yet dropping down into the oil pan! Yikes, has this ever happened to anyone? Could you retrieve a piece of broken dipstick w/o dropping the oil pan? Seems like a little detail, until it happens, and then you just say “Oh Sh|t, who designed that thing?”

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stas peterson Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

#21,

The dual mode is only used for large vehicles because the first implementation was meant to increase the mileage of big pickups and BoF heavy SUVs. GM needed to get the mileage of these vehicle up and chose to implement the big version first. It is expensive compared to an ordinary transmissions, bu this is quite cheap for a complete hybrid drive-train.

GM always promised to develop two full dual-mode versions, and sized it new factory to do so, each with a FWD and RWD version. The heavy RWD drive version powers the Escalade, Tahoe, and the Silverado, and Sierra pickups. . FWD versions has appeared in the Vue and will spread to other SUVs, including the Lambdas.

When the small version appears in late 2010, it will be available for cars like the DTS, La Cross and the Malibu.. In that size, it will easily bypass the Toyota Prius and Ford Fusion implementations from a technical, mileage, and performance standpoint. The RWD small version would power the Camaro, and any version of the G8 platform that survives.

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Akio Toyoda Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

GM should consider this offer as extremely generous, something I am sure the Americans would never do if the bankruptcy situation was reversed. The Prius is cutting edge tech and its dashboard electronics is extremely advanced. We at Toyota want GM to stay afloat amid its plunge into the dark world of a bankrupt corporation.
We wish you our humble aplologies

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jeffhre Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 6:05 pm

Part III. GM is developing the Volt, a self professed moon shot, during what would be without the infusion of Govt. funds, a bankruptcy. GM will also have to meet CAFE standards, which no matter how difficult it would be to adapt the fleet, they must endorse, so that asking for Govt money does not go into the limbo world of the why did you take jets to DC controversy.

How will GM do this; and introduce planned new models and develop future models to make the new leaner GM competitive while trying to adopt Voltec across varying platforms and continents? GM has said the Volt will not help with CAFE, and the initial limited production goals seem to bear that out. How will they accomplish all of this. IMO this is what makes auto manufacturing complicated, difficult, expensive and risky.

That puts a lot on GM’s plate. And with Voltec development especially, requiring a sustained process, which GM is not in the habit of following through with consistent commitments in the past (Think Saturn). With all of this in mind, would it make sense, hypothetically for Toyota to act in the way depicted in Lyles post. The answer is unequivocally…. maybe!

OK here’s where it gets a little weird. Maybe even more than a little. On to part IV.

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Joe Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

Akio Toyoda, tell you comrades you are very generous people. Your technology is so far advance that we at GM could never use it because of the lack of understanding such great technology. If only we were as smart as your people are!!!

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charlie h Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

#18, kent beuchert writes, “GM’s dual mode hybrid system is far more efficient than Toyota’s one-o-a-kind Prius. Technically the GM system is much cleaner
and more flexible. I see no reason for GM to adopt Toyota’s complicated and inflexible Prius technology.”

Yeah. It’s only little minor problem is that it doesn’t sell (it does about 200 units/month/model over the past 12 months). In other words, the market has evaluated it and declared it to be a loser.

—

#47, john1701a writes, “The 4-cylinder market has a target PRICE in the mid-20’s for midsize. GM’s approach of one-price-fits-all, you’ll have to pay mid-30’s, is far from addressing that market.”

Yep. Luckily, GM, once the world’s largest automaker, intends to produce a staggering 10K in the first year, about two-thirds of what Toyota has been building in Priuses every month for the last few years. That way they probably won’t have unwanted inventory. Probably.

#43, john1701a also writes, “Two-Mode has only been implemented for 8-cylinder engines with a 6-cylinder on the way. There’s nothing indicating a practical configuration to compete with either Camry-Hybrid or Fusion-Hybrid or Prius. Not being able to compete in the 4-cylinder market is a major shortcoming for GM. Will they really allow Toyota & Ford to have that entire consumer base… not to mention meet upcoming MPG requirements.”

Yep. And GM chooses to compete by offering a group of hybrid vehicle that still qualify as gas guzzlers, pitched at a market that is proven not to care about fuel economy? That’s interesting marketing, to say the least.

—

#60, Stas Peterson writes, “When the small version (of GM’s two-mode hybrid powertrain) appears in late 2010, it will be available for cars like the DTS, La Cross and the Malibu.. In that size, it will easily bypass the Toyota Prius and Ford Fusion implementations from a technical, mileage, and performance standpoint.”

Please explain the Lexus LS600h. It has a V8. It’s larger than a DTS or LaCrosse. It is powered by Toyota’s HSD. Toyota didn’t particularly optimize it for economy, though… it just goes like absolute h3ll. Which is what a luxury car should do. In the city, it does offer the advantage of engine-off idle (while contuining to power all accessories).

I wouldn’t necessarily say that HSD can do it all but it certainly is the case that HSD can do quite a bit.

—

Some people are often talking smack on Toyota on this forum. It would be wiser to give Toyota considerable respect for their achievements. Up to 30K units of hybrids sold/month. It was the conventional wisdom, 10 years ago, that Toyota couldn’t make money on this but they’ve been selling the Prius profitably since late ‘02. Some still can’t sell a hybrid profitably. Toyota has proven that they can build a saleable car, profitably, with a good strategy and find buyers. IF the Volt is a success, it’s still 16 months away from any evidence of that. And if we label a success as “sells profitably in volume,” we’re a good 3 or 4 years from that – at best.

When Toyota talks, it’s better to listen and learn.

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jeffhre Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 6:45 pm

Part IV. What if Toyota protects it’s green halo in the face of fast evolving Voltec vehicle systems. What would it do. One obvious vulnerability GM has is finding economical ways to meet CAFE standards, especially if gas prices fall and North Americans insist on buying big trucks and SUV’s.

Would licensing the Toyotas Hybrid system help GM with the small and midsized cars that it would desperately need to popularize until Voltec becomes a mass market, economically viable drivetrain option. You betcha! There is a big problem with using the licensed Toyota technology for critical drivetrain technologies. GM abhores being beholden to any licensor. So if Toyota could simply simply hand it over, then GM could begin to work on a potentially economic way to help meet CAFE. But GM being GM, would re-eingineer anything acquired, including the sucessful hybrid synergy system, the GM way.

How likely is this, well you’ll have to use your own frame of referance to make that judgement!

(Stas Peterson – Would a smaller version of split mode make for an economical car drivetrain when first introduced? Can a company in Gm’s financial condition, and with technology changing so fast, afford to subsidize it for customers?)

So split mode could help GM with CAFE. What would this do for TOYOTA! It would lock GM into a pragmatic (prosaic, mundane, mimicing) way of meeting CAFE, and would even help extend Toyotas green halo by having GM, possesor of Voltec, acknowledge the value of Toyota “Hybrid Synergy”. And potentially it takes resources from the more iconic and difficult Voltec development process.

This allows Toyota to add plugs to it’s hybrids without risking a GM marketing campaign, trashing in full public view, the hard won split mode technology and it’s latest margins on earnings or possibly damaging Toyota’s green halo.

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jeffhre Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

Postscript. We know that the, engineers, designeers, technicians, supply chain specialists cost engineers and rank and file would pick up the tasks and execute. So it could all serve as laying down the gauntlet to GM management by Toyota.

A message to GM managers that they could work on proven technology or work on systems that may begin to pay off seven or eight years from now. If GM even has the will to continue to support them for so long.

Hope some of you enjoyed this story, it’s purely hypothetical, like most things posted here – until customer Volt wheels get rolling on the roads, NPNS!

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Redeye Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

Toyota

A wolf dressed up like a sheep.

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Kool Aid Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:18 pm

General MacArthur’s grandson is working for Denso (Toyota affiliate) in Maryville, Tennessee now, maybe his offspring should go to Tokyo and bend on its knees (kowtow) to the Japanese for help! Or, maybe not, the Japanese actually is willing to dole out some shit just like you would do to the dirty homeless guy in NYC.

What a shame for America! Even worse than a beggar!

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Jim in PA Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 8:40 pm

Detroit’s malaise is not caused by lack of technological prowess, it is caused by lack of vision and will. Woe to GM if they take the bait.

And with regard to Toyota… congrats fellas. You have finally learned the lessons of Bill Gates; that intellectual property (if widely licensed) is far more profitable than manufacturing a commodity machine. In the 1980s, tiny tech startup Microsoft convinced IBM to build PCs around their operating system. Once Microsoft used IBM for greater market penetration, they licensed to more and more companies (actually competitors of IBM) until the Microsoft operating system dominated the market and IBM’s PCs were just another commodity. In this little parable, Toyota=Microsoft, GM=IBM. Don’t fall for it, Detroit!

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vincent Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:13 pm

LG Batteries for the Volt and Toyota Hybrid technology to other GM vehicles….are we bailing out the Japanese too. They are our friends but….
No Fcukin way people. Fritz get off your fat ass and land this plane of crap fast pal. Pearl Harbor in disguise.

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RandyB Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 9:41 pm

And they would expect what in return………….Volt technology of course.

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Guy Incognito Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:15 pm

The Toyota Hybrid Technology is Parallel Hybrid Technology, and it is’nt Plug-In.
The Volt, the Next Generation of Hybrid Technology, is a Serial Hybrid & a Plug-In as well.

Toyota wants obsolete Parallel Hybrid Technology to be the world standard?

This article is indeed hard to believe as it would be such an obvious effort to squash the Volt.

We are gm-volt.com, do they think we’re stupid?
Do they honestly think we can be taken in by something like this?
Who the f*ck is this supposed to fool?

Oh, and yes, we’re also aware that many people from the industry read this blog & our Forums.
Even the people from Toyota

=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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charlie h Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:35 pm

#68, Kool Aid,

“Kowtow” is Chinese. Just thought you should know.

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Timaaayyy!!! Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:46 pm

This just in: Coke is giving its formula to Pepsi, Mac confessed that he prefers PC, and my cat and dog are having a grand old time in the bath.

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john1701a Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:55 pm

The Volt, the Next Generation of Hybrid Technology, is a Serial Hybrid & a Plug-In as well.
______________________________

Serial, eh?

Funny how after countless demos, not a single demo driver person has ever actually got to experience that aspect of the design.

Heck, no data about generator operation has been shared either.

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john1701a Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 10:57 pm

We are gm-volt.com, do they think we’re stupid?
______________________

No, but lacking the stones to insist on data about generator operation.

Isn’t it long overdue that the very feature which makes Volt an EREV finally be demonstrated?

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hayley Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 11:41 pm

#73 charlie h Says:
“Kowtow” is Chinese. Just thought you should know.

“Kowtow” is some kind of disgusting romanization, “kou tou” is Chinese. And it has nothing to do with bending your knees anyways, it’s lowering (kou) your head (tou) to the floor as a sign of humility (@#68 Kool Aid)

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jeffhre Says:
May 25th, 2009 at 11:48 pm

#76
john1701
No, but lacking the stones to insist on data about generator operation.

Isn’t it long overdue that the very feature which makes Volt an EREV finally be demonstrated?
_______________-
Dear High Priust,
Haven’t car companies been spitting out these things ( ICE’s ) for over 100 years. Isn’t it actually the “EV” part that is the new stuff.

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john1701a Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 12:11 am

Haven’t car companies been spitting out these things ( ICE’s ) for over 100 years. Isn’t it actually the “EV” part that is the new stuff.
_______________________

GM made a great EV back in the 90’s.

EREV is what’s supposedly new… so new in fact, none of us have ever witnessed it in operation nor do we have any data available.

Isn’t the generator the selling point, what sets it apart from EV competition? If so, why the complete absense of information?

Some of us are really tired of the hype with quite literally nothing to support it.

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bruce g Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 1:13 am

Hmm,
Remember the Toyota statement “Lithium will never work in EV’s” of a year or so ago
They do tend to try and save face a lot.
My bet would be that the generator integration is superb and they have nohing to match it. The death of the Prius……

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Darius Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 1:14 am

This “proposition” has almost no value for GM. My question would be – what GM does not know about Prius? Are there any secretes? What kind of patents is limiting Volt development or even paralel hybrid production?

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REPORT: Toyota to give hybrid technology to GM? | Only Hybrids Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 7:00 am
charlie h Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 7:07 am

#80, Bruce G, “Remember the Toyota statement “Lithium will never work in EV’s” of a year or so ago”

Toyota didn’t say that. They said it wasn’t ready and that the economics weren’t yet there. In fact, Toyota uses Lithium-ion batteries in their mild hybrid (not available in the US).

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REPORT: Toyota to give hybrid technology to GM? » Hybrid News Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 8:01 am
ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 9:52 am

GM needs Toyota’s Prius technology like they need more debt! The Pruis is a ICE with the added complexity of a small electric motor that acts only at very low speeds and increases gas mileage by about 10 mpg.
On the contrary, the Volt is:
1) Quieter – electric always
2) Smoother – no transmission
3) Cleaner – no smell, no polution
4) The Volt is REALLY eco-friendly, whereas the Pruis is only slightly so when compared to other ICEs.

When the Volt starts appearing on the streets, the Prius will only appear in automotive museums, next to the Edsel.

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Matt Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 10:06 am

Not sure if everyone remembers the case (in appeals) against Toyota Motors in regards to their “Electric Wheel” technology. Toyota stole this technology from Solomon Technologies Inc. and used this in the Prius. The drive train is the core factor in effeciency of the output. I have not seen the design of GM’s Voltec technology but I would imagine it is far superior than Toyota’s reversed engineered one. Also I would think GM would stay clear of this offer if it is true.

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Sheet4brains Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 10:15 am

Volt fans need to quit bashing the mighty Prius.
Listen to me now, and believe me later.
The Volt will NEVER sell as many units in its entire lifespan as the Prius has already sold !
Bashing the best Hybrid in the world makes you guys look stupid.
Stupid is as stupid does.

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N Riley Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 11:43 am

Stranger things have happened between GM and Toyota in the past. I could see this benefiting both companies, if it were true and if it did come to pass.

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Darren Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

I think Toyota is afraid of the Volt. This is a move they think will make the Volt less successful.

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Open-Mind Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

“Toyota believes its hybrid technology is superior to what GM has developed thus far and is concerned that failure to achieve high fuel efficiency is one reason for GM’s current plight. ”

Let’s see … Toyota squandered most of their fortune to become biggest (right before this world-wide recession), then they lost almost $8 billion last quarter (that’s $2 billion more than GM), and now Toyota is almost out of money too. In other words, it may be time for Toyota to focus on their own plight.

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noel park Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

I kinda doubt it too, but whatever works. Clearly, there needs to be more than just the Volt. The Vibe has been nothing more than a rebadged Matrix, so there’s plenty of precedent.

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bruce g Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

#83 Charlie h,
I stand corrected….I wonder if they have thought they are the unbeatable Toyota and Honda and GM have just given them a fright.

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StevePA Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

Pick an analogy that works for you, but for me, Lyle’s subject for this thread was a lit match to the pool of Toyota frenzy gasoline…it didn’t take many posts for that to erupt.

Agree with the general theme – whether a plant from Toyota or some Conrad Dobler type in the automotive news establishment, it is an interesting trial baloon – one I hope GM would deflate with dispatch. GM does not need another variant of today’s technology when they have at close hand a more effective tool for reduction of fossil fuel consumption…one I believe will capture the economic votes of a significant percentage of the future buying public.

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Bob G Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 5:40 pm

#33 GXT Says, ” … In regards to the comments about Toyota wanting Voltec… this is laughable. GM has nothing that Toyota doesn’t already have. Batteries? No. Toyota could buy them just as GM has …”

GM is buying the basic Lithium Ion cells only. GM is designing and building the battery pack themselves. Each cell will be monitored for voltage, current, and temperature. Active cooling and heating will be needed. It has to be safe, reliable, and manufacturable. All of this requires hardware, circuitry, and software that doesn’t exist in the Prius.

If I was a Toyota engineer, I wouldn’t be laughing; I’d want to know how GM is doing all of this.

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RandyB Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 5:46 pm

I think it’s a plot by North Korea!! Thats it……it’s Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa conspiring in North Korea to take over the world. Sip a beer or glass of wine and enjoy the spring weather :{)

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Larry McFall Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

Why in the hell do you want the Toyota Technology? Is GM waiting for another handout. This is not the GM I grew up with. They had some guts. Does Toyota have the same design engineering that I understand that GM is claiming to employee in the VOLT?

Talking about the VOLT, how about working on a market for the VOLT. Where is the big trucks to take a copy of the VOLT around to towns to let the people see them and yes!!!! promote a market.

The Volt is a good sound idea that is nothing like what I know of that Toyota is doing. The idea of a Hybrid to Toyota is having an internal combustion engine running all the time very unlike the Volt.

GM, get off your punny bail-out ass and get the Volt a movin. My local Chevy dealer claims that, GM doesn’t keep them informed on anything and they are stuck with much that NObody wants.

The Volt is what this site and interest is in, not the Toyota and their fanstastic technology. If you need their technology so bad, why don’t you just give them the company and let them build the “VOLTSAN”!

What! Have you got those kids at work at GM again? They probably are the executives that need their annual bonus bottle at feeding time.

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charlie h Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

#94, Bob G writes, in response to a question about what GM owns, “GM is buying the basic Lithium Ion cells only. GM is designing and building the battery pack themselves. Each cell will be monitored for voltage, current, and temperature. Active cooling and heating will be needed. It has to be safe, reliable, and manufacturable. All of this requires hardware, circuitry, and software that doesn’t exist in the Prius. If I was a Toyota engineer, I wouldn’t be laughing; I’d want to know how GM is doing all of this.”

My kid did something very much like that on her way to getting a bachelor’s degree in physics and that wasn’t the interesting part of the science, just something necessary to deal with the experiment. It’s not rocket science. The cell chemistry is what makes an EV possible. GM doesn’t own that; it’s for sale to anybody.

Toyota pays on time and gets high marks from suppliers. GM doesn’t. If you were selling batteries, who would you sell to?

#92, Bob G writes… Is Toyota frightened?

Probably not. They have the resources to work several lines of advance at once. They’ve given GM a thorough drubbing in the current hybrid market, they know what a Volt will cost GM to build and have a vision for where they can take their current architecture and what they might do afterwards. I think they’re wary of all competition but not frightened. The Prius sells well enough and profitably that they are probably confident. And I think they should be.

Also, reviews of the Insight are unimpressive. Yes, it’s selling but it seems that comparing the Prius and the Insight… the Prius seems like it’s worth more than the extra $2K it costs.

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T ABE Says:
May 26th, 2009 at 11:12 pm

EV PHEV from using the vehicles on hydrogen and (FC Hydrogen RE)In order to sell is made in stages

If you sell first and sell the electric car is not the technology to make hybrid cars

Hybrid car and sell it to make a hydrogen fuel cell vehicles run on HCCi
I’m going to have and not having a hydrogen combustion engine.
Hybrid systems are also equipped with a Mazda hydrogen rotary engine vehicles. Ford is lucky. Do not thank the people of Hiroshima. I knew the signs from a recession to make a Honda lawn mower.

I will survive for the GM Chevrolet Corvair advised him to remember the lessons of things. The lawyers will not fight it. Japan’s car makers make a good car is the hybrid car technology development efforts and ridiculed by their manufacturers in Germany’s toy car is spared

VW’s BYD advice would you regret you did not select their own companies and Japanese companies have a dedicated battery for hybrid cars in Japan car batteries for cheap deals.

I apologize for having laughed a hybrid car in Japan is not.
I hate them because it’s not always pick only BYD.

If you put a VW diesel engine in North America to sell Golf

First U.S. Army’s M1 tanks and U.S. Navy Aegis destroyers,
UPS does not have the resolve to increase the price of diesel fuel used by

I think I will not allow the Pentagon.

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Matthew_B Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 1:59 am

#6
“The technology Ford uses for their hybrid program is Toyota based.
Why re-invent the wheel ? (so to speak)”

Nope.

Toyota used TRW patents from the early 70’s in the Prius.

Ford uses the same design in the Escape.

Just because the designs are very similar doesn’t mean that it’s a copy of Toyota.

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Peter Sommerfeld Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

I think the answer is in the 4th paragraph:

“Toyota is expected to post losses for two consecutive years and the return of the North American market is felt to be critical for Toyota’s recovery.”

If I were Toyota and realizing a shrinking market being sold to, I would be looking for another revenue stream and licensing technology to another company that no longer has the capital for huge R&D expenditures would seem like an obvious choice to me.

– Pete

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Killing our present » Blog Archive » Quick scan of the net - nummi Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
G35X Says:
May 27th, 2009 at 11:59 pm

#89 Darren says: “I think Toyota is afraid of the Volt. This is a move they think will make the Volt less successful.”

Why should Toyota be afraid of the Volt? The Prius already has EV mode while its ICE is float charging the battery. Given a higher capacity battery (Li-ion) Toyota can extend the range. Let’s see what kind of EV range the plug-in Prius (end of 2009?) can yield.

JFYI, I posted the following in the forum section some time ago. As you can see Prius’hardware and software are capable of operating in many combinations of the ICE, motor, battery and generator:

Status/ICE/generator/motor/battery/mode

Standstill/off/off/off/off/park
Standstill/start/motorized/free run/discharge/ICE start
Standstill/on/on/off/charge/battery charge

Forward/off/free run/on/discharge/EV
Forward/start/reverse on/on/discharge/ICE start
Forward/on/on/on/off/HV
Forward/on/on/on/discharge/HV acceleration
Forward/on/on/on/charge/HV charge
Forward/on/on/free run/charge/ICE run

Braking/compression/on/on/off/engine brake
Braking/off/free run/on/charge/regeneration

Reverse/off/free run/reverse on/discharge/EV
Reverse/on/on/reverse on/discharge/HV

(Quote)
Rich Wagoner Says:
June 1st, 2009 at 12:52 am

GM already has better mileage, line for line, than Toyota, and the Prius is crap technology. THe Volt will destroy the Prius.

(Quote)
Obama Releases $2.4B for EVs, GM Is Big Winner « Christopher A. Haase Says:
August 7th, 2009 at 7:59 am

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