AND 
GM Committed to Study the Application of Ultracapacitors to Future Chevy Volts
Argonne National Laboratory has been pursuing a research project since mid 2007. The idea is to blend ultracapcitors with lithium-ion batteries in the energy storage system of a PHEV. Lithium-ion batteries are particularly good at energy density whereas ultracapacitors are best in terms of power density. High energy density is needed for traveling long distances, whereas to create short bursts of intense power for rapid acceleration high power density is needed.
The project aims to optimize the combination of both components to maximize efficiency and minimize cost. At this point, proof of concept of the hardware has been demonstrated.
The lead researcher at ANL Ted Bohn has indicated that “GM has verbally committed to apply this technology on the Chevy Volt energy storage system and to perform lab evaluations.”
This idea isn’t really surprising as AFS Trinity Power has already demonstrated a working prototype of a modified plug-in Saturn VUE which uses a combined lithium-ion/ultracap energy system that delivers more than 150 mpg.
Also GM’s Advanced Battery Director, Denise Gray, has repeatedly described an “open door policy” for evaluating future technologies in GM’s battery lab.
“I’m pushing the envelope from and R&D perspective, there has to be a next generation,” Gray told GM-Volt.com. “It may be a next generation lithium, whether its manganese based, iron phosphate based, combined or another ion.”
“I applaud the research,” she says. “That’s where the breakthroughs are going to happen.”
Of course if EEStor comes through with its breakthrough material combining the best of ultracaps and batteries in the same low cost, low weight, high longevity device, all bets are off. Investor Zenn Motors has just announced it has independently confirmed that EEStor’s material is able to hold the energy they claim over a wide temperature range.
Source (GreenCarCongress)
83 Responses to “GM Committed to Study the Application of Ultracapacitors to Future Chevy Volts”
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May 23rd, 2009 at 8:31 am
Have a good weekend everyone, remember those that have served…
Kudos to Lyle for his thoughts on the future.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 8:37 am
Its great America kick some butt with the auto industry.
Get Argonne and our top science guys with our auto industry meshing together and we cant be beat!
Its Great to be a American!
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May 23rd, 2009 at 8:48 am
GO GM!
American needs to be the leader in the electrification of the automobile.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 8:53 am
I still wonder if there are any secrets in GM’s pipeline. Like a 50 mpg pickup? Remember the VW diesel pickup, or the Dodge rampage? How about the Cruze Camino… Of course there would be the Voltec option. Anyway the HHR is gone. my wife (and I) just traded it in for a leftover Prius. With an 80 mile commute she will be saving money. With my 40 mile commute on lovely back roads in the Colorado, I will be using more gas than she is.
Back to the subject, I expect the price of storing electricity to come down. Voltec is (IMHO) a consumer electronic commodity. I just hope the good old USA can be the preferred source.
/gosh, I am going to miss that shifter.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:01 am
Thanks for checking this out, Lyle. But, I wish Gray had more to say about it.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:08 am
It would seem that the traction motor would limit acceleration, not the power density of the battery. Li-ion batteries have a lot of power density.
Could be very helpful for regen though.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:11 am
When I first learned of the R&D by AFS Trinity* and their demonstration vehicle about 1 1/2yrs ago above I telephoned a member of their senior staff to discuss their work and became convinced this 150MPG SUV was a fully credible design! In fact, I have to wonder if, just as Tesla initially inspired GM’s development of gen 1 Voltec, AFS Trinity may have helped inspire GM to use of Ultracaps & perhaps gen 2 Voltec as well. In any case, the fact GM is actively working on an advanced gen 2 drivetrain despite their present sickening financial malaise is truly encouraging!
*AFS Trinity is a very successful energy storage system manufacturer specializing in stationary, high-efficiency flywheels for energy storage.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:23 am
From the article:
“Of course if EEStor comes through with its breakthrough material combining the best of ultracaps and batteries in the same low cost, low weight, high longevity device, all bets are off. Investor Zenn Motors has just announced it has independently confirmed that EEStor’s material is able to hold the energy they claim over a wide temperature range.”
==============
Oh, Lyle…how you make me smile.
+1
Sidenote: GM knows that money ‘borrowed’ now will be wiped out in a couple days…so they borrowed a ‘extra’ 2 billion at the 11th hour this may, bringing its total to 4 billion this month (1.4 billion more than ‘forecast’). 13.4 billion now taken directly +5.9 billion for GMAC = 19.3 billion tally to date.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:25 am
Capacitors are a basic components of controling and managing curent flow. Their use for accomplishing this in the VOLT is only limited by their technology. Better caps & batteries= better VOLT.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:51 am
To have a “next generation” there must be a “first generation” of VOLTs even if they are more expensive than we would like.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:09 am
______________________________________________________
Lyle Said:
“…This idea isn’t really surprising as AFS Trinity Power has already demonstrated a working prototype of a modified plug-in Saturn VUE which uses a combined lithium-ion/ultracap energy system that delivers more than 150 mpg…”
—
Voltec is better than Prius:
The AFS Trinity Power website is worth taking a look at. Check out Trinity’s World Oil page ( http://www.afstrinity.com/worldoil.htm ); the third graph on that page “Fleet Fuel Economy Effect on Oil Use” does a good job of illustrating that a Voltec type fleet trumps a Prius type of fleet in terms of lowering our dependence on oil as a transportation fuel.
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Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:13 am
6 DonC
I would suspect that they would want to supplement the Li-Ion batteries for a couple reasons.
First, is the power density, which the capacitor is at typically an order of magnitude greater then the Li-Ion battery.
Second, and possibly more importantly is the use of the ultra capacitors, may greatly extend the life of the battery. One of the biggest problems with Li-ion is the degradation over time and use. The relatively high impedance of the cells (10 to 100’s mOhm), will create heat and reduces overall efficiency. By using the ultracaps to supply/absorb the high currents required for heavy loads (acceleration) and regen (braking), you would not expose your batteries to these high currents, and therefore the higher temps the battery would experience.
Anyway, that would be my best guess at the value of an ultracap (of course the eestor would be the holy grail solution. This would give you the best of both worlds (high energy and power density)
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:15 am
This is exciting, but I still am wary of EEStor…what is the catch?
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
______________________________________________________
Lyle Said:
“…Of course if EEStor comes through…”
—
…Of coures if the Fantastic Cheese comes through…
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:32 am
113 ccombs
“This is exciting, but I still am wary of EEStor…what is the catch?”
=================================================
No catch. EEStor is still unproven to be a feasible. It’s one thing to prove out the physics of a design, but quite another to make something that will operate in the real world.
My take on EEStor, is that they can produce what they are stating, but I believe that the problem will be related to the following:
1) Can they actually manufacture the dielectric material in mass quantity. Capacitance increases inversely to the dielectric thickness of the material, thats how the get such high capacitance/energy in such a small package. This thin dielectric MUST be perfect and be w/o defect. even a pinhole can cause serious problems.
2) Will the capacitor operate over the entire temperature that would be required in a real application.
3) How to prevent this thing from “letting loose?”. A capacitor that shorts or fails wants to basically EXPLODE. This explosion property is “wanted” because you want the capacitor to deliver instantaneous power in operation, but not when a failure occurs. I have witnessed capacitors explode, it is not a pretty sight.
4) More, but my fingers hurt…
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:35 am
14 CDAVIS
Speaking of Cheese….This is a real riot!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc8mHUa5zFE
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:35 am
# 12 JEC
Good point, logical.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
#8 statik said (me):
Sidenote: GM knows that money ‘borrowed’ now will be wiped out in a couple days…so they borrowed a ‘extra’ 2 billion at the 11th hour this may, bringing its total to 4 billion this month (1.4 billion more than ‘forecast’). 13.4 billion now taken directly +5.9 billion for GMAC = 19.3 billion tally to date.
————————-
Don’t know what I am smoking this morning. The old take was 15.4 +4 billion (taken after market closed friday…go figure that, lol), which brings them to 19.4 billion directly….then another 5.9 billion for GMAC. So 24.3 all-in.
GM’s ‘official’ statement announcement (with obligatory thanks and shoutouts to Obama and the government):
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=54509
—
“GM confirmed today that it will draw an additional $4 billion in U.S. Treasury loans to maintain adequate liquidity as the company undergoes an aggressive restructuring. Today’s loan draw is higher than the amount forecasted in the April 27, 2009 S-4 Filing for the Bond Exchange Offer and reflects updated timing of when certain expenses would be incurred. Total U.S. Treasury funding received by GM to date is $19.4 billion.
We appreciate President Obama’s and his Administration’s ongoing support of GM and the domestic U.S. auto industry as we undertake the difficult but necessary actions to reinvent our company. We will continue to work closely with members of the President’s Auto Task Force throughout our restructuring and together we will continue to monitor our liquidity needs during this period. “
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:58 am
World’s Largest Capacitor
Capable of storing 50 megajoules of energy
http://www.rheinmetall.de/index.php?fid=1805&lang=3
I always hear about research on battery technology.. but not so much on ultra-caps.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 11:02 am
______________________________________________________
Electric Car Gold Rush:
Forbes magazine dedicated this month’s magazine issue to a series of articles related to the Electric Car Revolution. Here is the Forbes online landing page that indexes those articles:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/20/detroit-future-cars-lifestyle-vehicles-autos-09_land.html
The front cover lead article titled “The Next Detroit” outlines Henrik Fisker’s (of Fisker Automotive) plans to “branch out to higher-volume models and sell 100,000 vehicles a year worldwide. That’s more than Audi, Volvo or Mitsubishi now sell annually in the U.S.”:
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0608/070-automakers-fisker-karmas-the-next-detroit.html
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Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = Amreican Energy Independence!
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May 23rd, 2009 at 11:07 am
As to the ultracapacitor research, it’s all good. Keep diggin’, as the NASCAR spotters tell their dirvers.
As to statik’s revelations regarding the latest “loan” activity, I dunno. This stuff is really starting to give me the creeps.
As to the Holiday, did anyone see Bill Moyers” commentary on same at the end of his show last night? Extremely thought provoking, and inspirational in its own way.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 11:09 am
San Diego, CA — Maxwell Technologies Inc. (Nasdaq: MXWL) announced today that it has received purchase orders with a total value of approximately $13.5 million from three of China’s leading transit bus producers for BOOSTCAP® ultracapacitor modules to support braking energy recuperation and torque assist functions in diesel-electric hybrid transit buses.
If GM doesn’t use ultra capacitors in the first Volt they produce they will look like they are just guessing how to put together a fine car .
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May 23rd, 2009 at 11:16 am
You know, if the fuel cell was developed we wouldn’t need to worry about an all electric car and let battery tech develop naturally. Too much common sense…
Government Motors… drinking the Kool Aid. Such propaganda being fed to us. I wonder if the GM statement was written by Obama’s new in house media service. I am not referring to print or TV news either.
Fuel cell/electric cars + drilling for own oil (for airplanes, trucks, ships, military…) + house hold powering fuel cells/wind turbines, grid powered nuclear/solar towers/clean coal = energy independence.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
Fuel cells would be fine if we actually could produce hydrogen cheaply. The cheapest way now and foreseeably is gas supplies. Most of the hydrogen comes from gasoline. There’s not enough alternatives to prying the chemical makeup of hydrogen away from other hydrogen rich sources. Certainly not water as once claimed. The nextgen of cars is clearly electric – 16 major ways of producing electricity from coal, oil, wind, nuclear, water tidal, the works. These sources are one step, hydrogen is two step – enormous amounts of energy needed to pry the chemical makeups apart and distribute to the pumps. Better to use that energy by sending the energy straight to the car.
EESTOR hopefully has a solution for those power spikes. Let’s hope GM makes the Volt backward compatible for us who buy soon.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 11:25 am
I think the debate on the bailouts is a specific example of the bigger debate of government in our lives. For US citizens, does John Locke and the founding fathers principles mean more than the statist-progressive ideas that starting creeping in with Teddy Roosevelt. Obama is an example of the perfect statist. Government solves all problems. Is that what we want?
Specifically with the Volt and GM, wouldn’t we rather let people have the independence to choose? To let the market drive the change? It worked with TVs. Shouldn’t we let bad car companies enter Ch11 and take there hits just like there suppose to?
Sorry for the soap box. I am upset with the leadership of GM. They could have done like Ford and refused government help. Ford is just as bad off as GM but they survived and are making due. So frustrating…
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May 23rd, 2009 at 11:49 am
General Motors is largely responsible for a great America. The taxes paid by their direct and related operations is over $1 trillion dollars. I hope they stay around to help America move away from Oil. As a military retired veteran who helped protect the oil lanes, I foresee the day we save $200 billion annually if GM can pull off the reconfiguration of the auto industry to electric. If that takes government involvement to the tune of $25 billion to save America $200 billion annually, my support is unshakable. I realize there’s other opinions.
I add, the subsidy argument is false as well. The real cost of oil is $10/gallon after factoring in the cost of our well respected (deservedly so) military system. What I didn’t enjoy was the fact that that was a subsidy to the rest of the world also taking that same oil supply that we protect at enourrmous cost to American taxpayers. The rest of the world was receiving a multi-hundreds of billions of dollar annual subsidy.
CHEVY VOLT : American-made, American-fueled.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Ian Clifford made some other statements about EEStor – he said what everyone already knew – that this past permittivity test was the final milestone event before the batteries are to be delivered (from the production line) to ZZENN Motors. We also found out via the EEStorblog that the devices are operating in paraelectric phase, not the ferroelectric phase that many thought and which skeptics had
cited as a reason not to believe EEStor’s claims, citing dielectic saturation. But dielectic saturation doesn’t occur in paraelectric phase operation. So the skeptics were off the mark. Clifford claims delivery is expected before end 2009. He already has the CityZENN
vehicle ready for the capacitors. But don’t throw away your gas powered cars just yet – ZENN Motors is engineering retrofit electric propulsion systems for them. They have the exclusive license for that business also.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
I predict GM/Chrysler would be history by July, 4th.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
#26 jbfalaska:
Excellent points. Thanks for reminding us. I was just about to say that, if $24 Billion will get us down the road toward energy independence, maybe it’s worth it after all. But you beat me to it. Well done.
carcus1 provided an excellent link at #153 on yesterday’s thread. It documents the report of the panel of retired generals and admirals stressing the extreme national security risks generated by our present energy use habits.
As carcus1 said, it’s kind of a no brainer, but the sign off of a bunch of 3 stars and 4 stars must lend some credibility in new quarters.
Bill Moyers’ central point was that, even as much as we honor and respect the courage and dedication of our military folks, it is the responsibility of each and every one of us to make sure that they are not misused and sacrificed in ways that are not in support of our traditional underlying values.
Maybe Voltec is a good investment to that end.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
8 & 18 Statik:
Can’t you ever resist the urge to change the subject to money and finances? Lyle gives you plenty of opportunity to sound off on these matters when it’s his “topic of the day”, so to speak. Let’s keep to the subject of bateries and ultracapacitors today.
Thank you.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Didn’t we already have this discussion 2 years ago?
The ASF Trinity Plug-in Hybrid Saturn Vue is old news. I am so tired of the major auto makers being years behind in their R&D. I am tired of the excuses, I am tired of endless R&D, I am tired of waiting.
It’s no wonder Elon Musk, founder of Tesla, decided to start his own car company to compete against the big three. They just can’t get anything done. It’s no wonder they’re bankrupt… They can’t listen and respond quickly enough to a changing economy.
Remember the 70’s? Same thing happened then, they could build smaller cars but didn’t. They ended up getting stomped by the little fledgling car companies from Japan, and even bought cars from them and re-branded them. Now they’re even too arrogant and stupid to license existing and PROVEN technology from ASF Trinity. No, instead they will “push the envelope from an R&D perspective…”.
GM… LISTEN!
ENOUGH R&D, ENOUGH EXCUSES. Give ASF Trinity, Elon Musk, LiON EV, or someone else some of your R&D funds and one of your empty factories so they can start building REAL plug-in cars NOW.
Quit being so greedy and do what’s right for the American people.
We’ve had enough.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Enjoy your family today everyone and thank you to those that have allowed us the freedom to do so today.
I’ll simply say this…all this Gee Wiz technology seems like a magical appearance….
It just means Oil is no longer king and the games and rules are changing. Here comes freedom for the Middle East. Hopefully Memorial Day will honor those that served… and serving in the name of energy will also be a memory. What the Government has invested is nothing compared to war and the lost lives.
By the way if your not aware of it and many may not be…capacitors are on most all appliances in your home and tool shed and have been around forever…
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May 23rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Lyle made an oops. EESTORs report of permitivity is NOT a measurement of energy storage. It only says that their material has the desired capability at very low voltages. But they will only get the desired energy at very high voltages, which is not where the permitivity was measured and which they will not get to without the device failing destructively. The energy stored in a capacitor goes by the square of the voltage. The high voltage is key to high energy and it isn’t going to happen. Low voltage simply gives thesame results that everyone else in the ultracapacitor biz is working on.
In #27 kent beuchert refers to paraelectric phases and ferroelectric phases in reference to capacitors. I am off to do a search on these terms, but I have a Ph.D. in Chemical Physics and my first instinct on these terms is “hornswoggle”. Molecules have two different mechanisms of magnetism, diamagnetism and paramagnetism. But polarization under a static electric field isn’t so interesting or complicated.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 1:49 pm
#27
Ian Clifford has made many statements in the past.
I am still waiting for the water powered feel good car/Zenn.
IC stated the vehicles were to be manufactured back in 2004 at their 10,000 a year production facility.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2958
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May 23rd, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Ok, time to eat just the end of a crow’s wing. Paraelectric and ferroelectric phases are indeed properties of certain compounds which are used as dielectrics in capacitors. Some compounds actually make a PHYSICAL structure change under high electric fields into the ferroelectric phase from the paraelectric phase. Some interesting stuff that in a sense proves the point. Capacitors behave nicely at low voltages. At high voltages, stuff starts happening. The dielectric material get very stressed. It can undergo physical structure changes. But ultimately, electrons are ripped from the molecules, free electrons begin flowing through the dielectric, breaking more electrons loose, and causing a very sudden and very exciting failure of the capacitor. Obviously occurs when you try to store enough energy in the dielectric such that you exceed the ionization potential of the dielectric material. But this is essentially the energy levels at which batteries normally operate. Batteries inherently store their energy as ionized molecules. To store energy at the same density as batteries do, you must store energy at densities which can result in ionization. And if you put enough energy in a molecule so that it can ionize, it will. So I still don’t see capacitors exceeding the energy density of batteries. With proper choice of material, you might get a best case capacitor to exceed a low energy battery, but I don’t see the best case capacitor exceeding the best case battery.
Sign me ‘Still Skeptical’
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May 23rd, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Lyle, just give up on EEStor already. All they had to do was make just one single working prototype, even a very small one, and everybody would see for themselves and be convinced. They would instantly get $Billions in funding.
They only need to publish the dielectric constant of their material *while* charged to 3000V to prove their claims. To publish a high constant with *no* voltage spec is the moral equivalent of lying.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Ted Bohn has indicated that “GM has verbally committed to apply this technology on the Chevy Volt energy storage system and to perform lab evaluations.”
Verbally committed? Is there anywhere on the planet where a verbal commitment is anything more than noise coming from someones pie hole?
What do you mean my transmission is not covered under warranty? The salesman verbally committed to me that I could tow my 30′ cabin cruiser with my Cobalt!
Stew
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May 23rd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Am I suppose to know what this “Ultracapasitor” is? What ever it is and who ever is testing it, just do it! It sounds like some more technology that should have been done yesterday when GM was making the GAS HOGS. I wonder if GM is going to make the Volt availiable in 2010 as SOMEWHAT promised. The VOLT is a great concept and I am sure that it could be put on the street. Just don’t get tied around the axle on, “We just have to wait for new technology”. GM, Be a leader like the old days and make a market for this new concept. If not now, When?
Now that Chrysler has went into Bankburst!!! and is doing relly well at the dealerships, at least during the Memorial Day time frame, the US Government is going to get them out of the Burst. GM goes into the burst and sells off the ash and trash, maybe we can get down to making some bucks and showing the world what GM can do!!!
By the way, if GM ever makes the VOLT, I hope that the GM employees can afford them as I hope the average working person is able. Just maybe GM can suggest to the dealers to take a good profit but not what they have been doing. US Made Autos are out of site. GO TEAM, We Americans need are auto teams winning for a change and get some people at the home office that can speak english or at close to it.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 2:30 pm
First off, a super-capacitor is simply a very high capacity capacitor. Capacitors are fundamental passive components in virtually all electronic circuits. Typically valued in micro (10X-6) or pico (10x-9) farads. So that super-capacitors are valued many magnitudes over the standard passive capacitor. Thus, opening new power storage applications. However, readers should know that super-capacitors in and of themselves are not power generators. They are simply – as noted at the top of this – a storage of electrons. Those electrons must be placed there by a charging mechanism. Which makes it wholly different from a battery.
For #33 look over U.S. patent 6180252 for how para and ferro electric terms are applied. http://www.uspto.gov click patents – click patent number – enter number.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Super Capacitors can leap electrical lines in a single bound! Stop EMF dead in its track!
I think they can also be used to stop that irritating rash and itch.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 3:52 pm
I once had a 220 uF electrolytic capacitor blow up right in my face ’cause I reversed power and ground (I was leaning over the breadboard trying to figure out why it was screwing up, I guess I found out). It was a very impressive-looking explosion but not an experience my face wants to endure again (luckily it only hit my cheek)! I wonder if ultracaps (granted, they aren’t anything like electroytics) have solved this problem.
PS. Just heard something hush-hush about the Prius using ultracaps… wondering if it is true.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 3:58 pm
#30 Gary:
statik can comment all day on financial issues, as far as I’m cncerned. It’s always educational and entertaining, even when I don’t agree with him, LOL.
At this point in the Volt story, the financial condition of GM is a lot more critical to its emergence than the technical issues, IMHO.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 4:42 pm
If only I had known GM was supporting capacitors! Lets give em a few more billion to help it along!!!!
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May 23rd, 2009 at 4:47 pm
I like the Volt and GM but if GM writes off my Tax paid Loans that was given to them in good faith, I will never buy even one piece of product from them and sell my current GM cars.
If GM does this, then their just another rip off company in my opinion and nobody should support such a poor business model/practice.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Exciting to hear inspiring news for once, lol.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 4:53 pm
I have to ask, if GM does what poster #44 sez, why would any descent US citizen even consider supporting a company that basically kicked every tax paying individual in the arse? I don’t quite understand this type of abusive relationship.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Great to hear progress is still going on. However, if they dump their financial responsibility to pay those billion dollar loans to us the tax payers, then my business goes elsewhere.
Sorry folks, I have a problem with getting slapped in the face like that.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Hi all,
The super-capacitors are already in an existing car see : http://www.bluecar.fr/en/pages-innovation/default.aspx
Regards,
JC NPNS LJGTAWOTR !!!!
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May 23rd, 2009 at 5:55 pm
48 JC
Very nice little package. If only someone would sell one in the States…
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May 23rd, 2009 at 5:59 pm
That Bluecar used to be the B0. Looks like they changed the name.
Don’t expect it in the US.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 6:32 pm
This car, Volt, will not be available till 2011 to the public. All the while the Prius has already displaced many millions of gallons of gas. The way GM is raping the US people why bother with the support? If displacing gas consumption is a serious priority, like you say NPNS, then those who can should go out and buy a high MPG hybrid or VW TDI vehicle. I find it kind of appalling how many here insist on continuing the use and consumption of gas just to hold out for a company that will most likely not be around. Between the past 2 years and th next 2 years till hopefully your pathetic Volt comes out, you would have already did your share of displacing gas but you insist on doing nothing. You’re all hypocrites!
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May 23rd, 2009 at 6:41 pm
51 thePrius
“You’re all hypocrites!”
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And a happy Memorial day weekend to you!
def. Hypocrite:
(1) A person who engages in the same behaviors he condemns others for.
I guess you could consider anyone who wants something, but is unwilling to compromise, a hypocrite, in some fashion.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Let’s be a little more conservative than anticipating EESTOR.
Maybe just try putting harnesses on birds
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May 23rd, 2009 at 8:05 pm
#51 thePrius.
My next new car will be a Plug-In. Period.
The Prius does not qualify. If Toyota wants my money, they better add a plug.
No Plug, No Sale, No Way.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 8:56 pm
#54 Eric E said:
My next new car will be a Plug-In. Period.
The Prius does not qualify. If Toyota wants my money, they better add a plug.
No Plug, No Sale, No Way.
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To me, ‘the plug’ is more important than the platform to which it connects at the moment. A lot of different ideas/concepts out there, all with their own pros and cons, but the plug itself is the statement I hope that gets recognized out of this movement…and eventually gets built into the majority of vehicles.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:11 pm
51 The Prius
You have to realize what kind of company GM really is. GM is not a car company….GM is a management company that manages car companies (Chevy, Buick, GMC etc.). They haven’t been doing a great job, but that’s another issue. GM exists because the U.S. wants them to exist. When we asked them to build tanks during WWII they cranked them out in unimaginable numbers. When they are asked to crank out plug-in, high mileage cars they will do the same.
The discussion about whether the Prius or the Volt is a better platform is moot. If GM is determined to mass produce the EREV and the government buys in, the world will see the power of American manufacturing. Call it Socialism or Marxism or Lutzism or whatever, but this is going to happen and I WANT MY VOLT. I may have to wait a while but I’m sure it will be worth it. I’m also sure that the rest of the world will see the advantages of the Volt.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:19 pm
#30 Gary said:
8 & 18 Statik, Can’t you ever resist the urge to change the subject to money and finances? Lyle gives you plenty of opportunity to sound off on these matters when it’s his “topic of the day”, so to speak. Let’s keep to the subject of bateries and ultracapacitors today.
Thank you.
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I try to keep it on subject whenever possible, and I did try to isolate my comment by keeping it brief and adding the ’sidenote’ reference…unfortunately I got my own facts wrong and felt I had to correct myself…so it slipped into two posts.
I didn’t really want to start a discussion on it, but I figured the news was significant enough to just mention it.
Overdrawing a extra couple billion, up to 4 billion of taxpayers money, knowing they are going to default on it in 7 days and have it forgiven is significant…but also trying to slip it out there under the radar, after the market closes on a friday again to avoid the bad PR/press is one step farther.
I figured people should be aware if they had not seen it. I did sit on it for a day, and it seemed unlikely there would be a appropriate venue/opportunity to disseminate the info, so I put it up as innocuously as I could.
/apologies to you regardless…I realize some people find the whole finance thing a little intrusive
Have a good evening.
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:19 pm
They (GM) claim build it in the USA and export it to other countries. About time to make something here and export it elsewhere. I just hope they build enough to supply the needs of the American public first.
Take Care,
TED
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May 23rd, 2009 at 9:46 pm
57 Statik
For Christ sake, you have no need to defend your posts. Everyone who follows this site, knows what your about.
Look at all the over SH|T that gets posted (including mine), and someone complains that you post pertinent financials?
As John Stossel would say “Give me a break!”
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:29 pm
The need for automotive capacitors will be eliminated if the following technology from MIT is viable:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7938001.stm
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Does anyone have any evidence that ultracapacitors can/do work?
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May 23rd, 2009 at 10:56 pm
The long weekend seems to have brought out the trolls… Oh well, there will always be a select few who will do their dead-level best to rain on everyone else’s parade…
Statik…keep right on posting…I post more OT stuff than most…I’m the one who should be getting dinged…lol.
On topic…I’m excited that some of the same think-tanks that helped us beat the Germans to the A-bomb during WWII are now working on the electrification of the automobile. IMHO billions in “stimulus” dollars could be put to far better use in this area than in helping all the dead voters who’ve been getting checks recently…
The USA is one of the truly great nations in this world because it’s a nation of 300 million individuals…when we all pull in the same direction that is…lol.
God Bless America…God Bless our Military…and God Bless the Volt.
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May 24th, 2009 at 12:21 am
“Does anyone have any evidence that ultracapacitors can/do work?”
Yes ultracapacitors work and have worked for decades. It is just that they don’t hold very much energy.
Everyone is looking towards EEStore for their super-de-duper ultracap but it wont be them with the next real world break through ultracap… it will most likely be MIT that advances Ultracaps.
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May 24th, 2009 at 1:02 am
Statik at Al:
Although I agree that GM’s financials are of importance and we shouldn’t be completely sticking our heads in the sand on the topic, constantly bringing them up does bring up even more negativity about the company, hurting GM’s reputation even more. It’s a vicious cycle.
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May 24th, 2009 at 6:03 am
#57 statik said
Overdrawing a extra couple billion, up to 4 billion of taxpayers money, knowing they are going to default on it in 7 days and have it forgiven is significant…but also trying to slip it out there under the radar, after the market closes on a friday again to avoid the bad PR/press is one step farther.
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Thank you for identifying this abusive behavior.
It is good for us to realize who we are dealing with.
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May 24th, 2009 at 7:59 am
The per gallon price of super unleaded in Santa Barbara is now $2.97-$3.05. Just in time for the summer travel rush.
=D~
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May 24th, 2009 at 8:11 am
#59 JEC said:
57 Statik
For Christ sake, you have no need to defend your posts. Everyone who follows this site, knows what your about.
Look at all the over SH|T that gets posted (including mine), and someone complains that you post pertinent financials?
As John Stossel would say “Give me a break!”
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Sorry JEC….hehe
#64 Gary: I do understand your point of view…catch you on the next one.
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May 24th, 2009 at 8:15 am
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Our Electric Future
By Andy Grove July/August 2008
“If we don’t convert a large portion of the transportation sector to electricity, we cannot make real progress toward energy resilience..We must accelerate conversion to electricity in a major way…Shifting to electricity has the added advantage of helping to mitigate a major environmental threat.”
Please take the time to read Andy’s full essay:
http://www.american.com/archive/2008/july-august-magazine-contents/our-electric-future
Excellent Andy Grove Video at Plug-In Conference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt9WnWZVEU8
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Electric Cars + Nuclear Power = American Energy Independence!
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May 24th, 2009 at 8:22 am
#66 Dave K said:
The per gallon price of super unleaded in Santa Barbara is now $2.97-$3.05. Just in time for the summer travel rush.
=D~
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Yeah, the combination of crude trending up and the USD getting crushed at the same time is a bad combination for people at the pumps. If we had another few weeks like this past one, you’d probably get gas in the $3.75-$4.00.
I think that is one of the main worries of market stabilization, return of the $4+…although from our point of view, you could call that a ‘plus’ for the cause.
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May 24th, 2009 at 8:44 am
66 Dave K says “The per gallon price of super unleaded in Santa Barbara is now $2.97-$3.05. Just in time for the summer travel rush.”
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Here’s a solution – Get Congress to pass a law stating “If you buy oil futures on the stock market, you must own (not lease) the facilities to STORE all of the oil you have agreed to buy in the oil future contract(s)” you purchased.
In other words, to buy oil futures, you have to have the room to store the oil you bought. This would lock out all the oil future investors who have no interest in the oil itself – they just want to make a profit by holding the oil contracts. Given a limited number of oil future contracts per year, and the amount of profit seeking investors, it’s no wonder what happened in 2008. Too many investors chasing too few oil futures.
That’s why I call them “Wall Street Traitors” – they don’t want the oil they bought, they just want to take YOUR money, and stick it in THEIR pockets. They say “America be damned, the poor be damned, the economy be damned, just look at the earnings I made from 2008 – I’m RICH!”
Let’s get that law passed – you can’t buy oil futures if you can’t store the oil.
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Have a nice memorial day weekend.
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May 24th, 2009 at 9:15 am
70 The Grump
Can use my kids swimming pool to store that oil? I also have a couple rain barrels that would probably work nicely, but of course, where then would I store all my rain water? The garden season is just starting, and my rain barrels are all full to the brim. I would hate to pour out all that water…
Maybe my best bet would to waterproof my entire basement and turn it into an oil storage facility. Of course my home owners insurance might go up a little…
^just a thought…^
PS: You know using rain barrels follows a parallel path to using batteries. If you expect to actually save money with both storage devices, you will be sorely disappointed. The cost of the storeage mechanism will just never be recouped in the saving of just purchasing the raw material (water or gas).
PSS: Post totally off topic
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May 24th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
This technology is fine, but it would not be necessary if we could have imbeded magnetic strips at specfic intervals on our highways. Then these cars would charge themselves, without stoping, as they drive over this electromagnetic strips via a pick up coil placed under the chasis of the car
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May 24th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
One of my friends over at Austin Energy (an EE), mentioned that when he had talked to EESTOR (he gets to visit EESTOR), the statement regarding something at a commercial level (I believe the meaning was) is repeatedly described as available “By the end of the year”. This description has been the same one for the last “4 years”.
It seems to me that the main things that are a major factor in the situation are both purity of the components and perfection in the manufacturing processes. Beyond those two things from my perspective (not an EE), EESTOR apparently has quite a way to go.
However, in post #60 with a link to the March 11th, 2009 BBC story about the MIT breakthrough which causes the Lithium Iron battery to better behave like an Ultracap, well, it seems that EESTOR might be close to running out of time.
But if they finally do get to where there is something commercially available, then there still would be the Underwriters Labs tests to pass, and GM’s tests to pass.
Dan Petit Austin TX.
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May 25th, 2009 at 2:30 am
Adrian Says:
May 23rd, 2009 at 11:16 am
You know, if the fuel cell was developed we wouldn’t need to worry about an all electric car and let battery tech develop naturally. Too much common sense…
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Where is the common sense in building fuel cell cars which cost a million dollars a copy, because Li-ion cars cost too much at $40k?
Advocating fuel cells is like advocating time travel. The list of benefits if we could make it work is impressive, but no one can point out a path toward getting it done.
Several automakers have large fleets of hand built fuel cell cars out there, but none have specific plans to commercialize the technology, because no one has identified a research path leading to $40k fuel cell cars.
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May 25th, 2009 at 3:38 am
May 25th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Adrian, in a perfect world the fuel cell shows real promise but in reality is just too expensive to be mass produced.
The issue is cost not the technology. Ballard power has been bashing up against this for years. (When was the last time you heard about then in the news?)
The development of high power capasitors would/will be very beneficial to a car like the volt. Think of them as electrical shock absorbers, they will protect the battery and allow things like regen braking to be much more efficent by allowing small bits of charge to build up prior to dumping to the battery. Conversely if there is more charge than the battery can take at a given instant the cap’s will store the access until the battery can catch up and absorb the charge.
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May 25th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
I don’t give damn about EESTOR. Until proved otherwise this a has all the warning signs of a scam.
Bu the concept of using super caps to buffer regen energy and instantaneous current demands is a good idea, if it extends battery life more than the cost of the ultra caps.
Bu this is not even the most advanced Battery cap implementation. Chrysler’s ENVI and GE have a JV, in which GE’s combined super cap/battery cells are combined in a single unit to provide both high power and high capacity Li-Ion batteries for automotive use.
Chrysler has committed to use the technology in one of its Electric vehicles for 2011. When Chrysler was talking of these a few months ago, even I was skeptical of its survival that klong bu tit is just a few paper shuffling days away from emerging from Bankruptcy,and a member of the FIAT empire.
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May 25th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
I am patiently waiting for an electric car that runs on 5 “D cell” batteries.
Until then, I’m planning on a 20 year, Rip Van Winkle, sleep. When I
awaken, I expect to find the “D cell” car to be a reality, not fiction. (:-) (:-)
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May 26th, 2009 at 3:23 am
JEC says: “Can use my kids swimming pool to store that oil?”
“PSS: Post totally off topic ”
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1) Can your pool, your rain barrels, and your basement combined store 10 million barrels of crude oil (a normal amount for an oil future contract)? Would you really want to? (Point goes to The Grump)
2) I thought we were alllowed to be off-topic, if replying to another off-topic post. My bad. Besides, this thread is boring – when they actually prove that a Volt-ready ultracap exists, when EEStor produces more than hot air, then I’ll get excited. (Point goes to JEC)
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May 26th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Sounds interesting. Sounds like something we will give away free to foreign owned auto companies so they can beat our companies in the market place. Just like hybrid technology.
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May 26th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
#72 Electriciti Says, “This technology is fine, but it would not be necessary if we could have imbeded magnetic strips at specfic intervals on our highways. Then these cars would charge themselves, without stoping, as they drive over this electromagnetic strips via a pick up coil placed under the chasis of the car”
If you are talking about putting magnets in the highway that generate current in a coil as the car passes over it (i.e., a linear generator), the drag on the car will exceed the energy gained. Otherwise, it would be a perpetual motion machine, which violates the laws of physics.
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May 31st, 2009 at 7:33 am
It’s truly amazing that anyone brings up Eestore anymore. They haven’t ever produced a working prototype. They are just sucking up investiment dollars with ‘hopeful’ news. They had a nice idea. They thought they could get it to work. But alas, they can’t figure it out, and they can’t make it work. Hence, they can’t produce a working prototype.
It’s a scam and a sham folks. They keep missing their own deadlines, BECAUSE they can’t get it to work ! Why else are they so secretive ! They are scamming us.
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June 11th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
“They are scamming us?” Does that mean, joemama, that they have hit you up for money? They haven’t scammed me — they probably could but they haven’t asked me yet. As far as I can tell the only people that are able to invest in EEStor are big boys with lots of money and presumably got and kept all that money by thorough due diligence.
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