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There Will be No Customer Access to High Voltage on the Chevy Volt, but it Can Jump Start Another Car

May 18th, 2009 | Posted in: Charging, Features

The Volt is different than traditional cars on many levels beyond its electric drivetrain. One way is that its battery can store 16 kwh of energy, enough to power the average US household for about half a day.

People ask if they will be able to access that energy to power their home during a blackout, or for camping, by attaching an inverter to the Volt.

“This capability won’t be available on gen 1,” says Volt spokesperson Rob Peterson, “At this point, our priority is getting the vehicle right and delivering on time. This type of functionality would likely be considered for future gen vehicles.”

People also ask whether the Volt could be used to jumpstart another car.

I had the opportunity to pose those questions to Andrew Farah who is the Chevy Volt’s lead engineer.

Will the Volt be able to jump start another car? Does it have a traditional 12v lead battery too or will drivers have access to the high voltage terminals?

These are very interesting questions. About a year ago we worked through them and here is where we are…

1. Customer access to High Voltage
The customer will have no access to high voltage. In fact, if the customer accidentally takes some action that might get them close to high voltage (e.g. disconnects a HV connection) then the system will cut off that voltage up stream of the potential breach. As with all systems, “nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool”, but we have a number of layers of HV protection for the customer, the service technician, and the vehicle assembler.

2. “Jump” Start
We had also wrestled with this issue on the EV1. Answer there was no jump start of any kind, but the EV1 had a different electrical architecture that offered other remedies. For Volt the answer is a bit more conventional. Yes, we have a 12v battery. It is not a typical automotive “flooded” lead, but a sealed “acid starved” type…. and it is capable of providing enough power to jump start another vehicle.

Posted by: Lyle

173 Responses to “There Will be No Customer Access to High Voltage on the Chevy Volt, but it Can Jump Start Another Car”

GeorgeB Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:56 am

First?

I want my volt now!!!

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FME III Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:58 am

Glad to see they are thinking through real-world issues such as jump-starting.

As for V2G, I’m glad they didn’t put effort into pursuing that for Gen 1, since the grid isn’t ready for it, anyway.

Weber, Farah & company bit off plenty when they decided to develop the Volt in the first place.

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Xiaowei1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:58 am

Though this issue is not the volts main selling point, I think a few people might be a touch let down by this. The mere convenience of providing a generator in an emergency would have been a selling point.

I suspect modders will get to work on this though.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:05 am

From the article,
As with all systems, “nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool”

Ah, so true. We have a saying in IT.
Make it idiot proof and only an idiot will break it.

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Jim in PA Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:10 am

Wait… there is a 12-volt battery? Dare I ask why? Someone please enlighten me. Every time I look, the “simplicity” of an electric vehicle get more and more complicated.

Also, GM is quite smart to not allow consumer access to the Lithium battery. Otherwise, here is what would happen: Consumer “A” would buy the Volt, with an eye on the 150,000 mile battery warranty. He then takes his car home and uses it for storage and load leveling for his home’s wind turbine and solar panel. Lo and behold, the battery craps out at only 100,000 miles and he is furious, completely ignoring the fact that by using it in his home, he put the battery through the equivalent of 200,000 miles worth of charge/discharge cycles during that time.

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Newman Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:13 am

One worry I have is that the 12v sealed lead acid auxiliary battery they propose for the volt is the same type as Toyota uses in the Prius for its auxiliary 12v battery.

This battery has failed on me every 2 years so far and Toyota want AU$505 for the thing (US$350 aprox.).

I feel like I’m being gouged every time on this, hence I won’t be getting another Prius for that reason alone.

I hope the Volt’s 12v battery will not be priced as ridiculously high as the Prius or is at least far more durable.

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Bearclaw Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:32 am

To answer what the 12v battery is for. My guess is it would be to start the ICE to charge a depleted lithium battery and to run the 12 volt instrument cluster. I would be concerned too about this battery having a short life if the volt will run anything like the prius but I hope it will be sufficiently different.

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Exp_EngTech Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:37 am

I have 2 “burning” questions regarding the 12v Cigarette Lighter Sockets….

1. How many ?
2. Where ?

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AutoElectric Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:48 am

I discussed with lots of manufacturers at the recent Geneva Auto Show, including Tesla. Almost all of the cars continue to have 12V battery for accessories and motor start. Its not economic to adapt the very huge number of available electronics, starter motors, window motors, wiper motors, lights, fans, actuators, blowers… to run on several hundred volts.

The list of parts and suppliers of 12V equipment is vast.

Its a wise choice in my view.

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-1 RB Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:48 am

People ask if they will be able to access that energy to power their home during a blackout, or for camping, by attaching an inverter to the Volt.
“This capability won’t be available on gen 1,”
—————————————–

My neighborhood is vulnerable to extended power outages, which occasionally go on for days at a time. The ability to use the Volt for limited external power is a small feature in the big scheme of things, but for us it would have been a strong reason to purchase the car, in that it could replace the $25K backup systems we otherwise need. No doubt excluding such use is the right decision for Volt as it avoids the complications and potentially the liability that might follow. Perhaps the simplification also can get the Volt out the door a few days earlier. However, I had hoped for the capability of external connection, so not to have it is for sure a big letdown.

In the larger picture, it seems like all of the really special individual features of the Volt as originally announced are, one by one, slip-sliding away. What will go next?

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Jim I Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:49 am

Lyle:

When you were told there was a 12V battery, shouldn’t you have asked why it was there, and exactly what it would be used for????

With a 300V 16Kwh battery pack already in place, and a generator to charge it back up, are they also not going to have a small alternator on the ICE to charge up the 12V battery?

This thread has left more questions than it answered…..

And IMHO, no V2G is a good iea for the Gen-1 Volt. There is enough to do to get this car right, and out the door by Nov, 2010, without adding a whole new level of hardware/software issues.

RB #10: I don’t ever remember GM saying that V2G was going to be part of the Volt. It was always just mentioned here by some people saying they wanted it.

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Gsned57 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:01 am

#9 Autoelectric

I discussed with lots of manufacturers at the recent Geneva Auto Show, including Tesla. Almost all of the cars continue to have 12V battery for accessories and motor start. Its not economic to adapt the very huge number of available electronics, starter motors, window motors, wiper motors, lights, fans, actuators, blowers… to run on several hundred volts.

The list of parts and suppliers of 12V equipment is vast.

Its a wise choice in my view

—————————————————————————————————

They could have gone with a DC to DC converter to supply the 12Volts and never had to worry about a lead acid battery again. Although with all the new tech on board I don’t figure they needed the hassle of sourcing one.

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Jason Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:07 am

Customer access to the HV is an interesting concept. This would help me justify solar panels on the roof. This would remove my need for a battery bank at the house. Perhaps grid tie with the option of switching the power to the car.

Long story short, gas is starting to creep back up there and I want my Volt now!

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RB Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:09 am

#11 Jim I said “RB #10: I don’t ever remember GM saying that V2G was going to be part of the Volt. It was always just mentioned here by some people saying they wanted it.”
—————————————————

You are right. People talk about “V2G” very broadly. What I was hoping for was the very limited ability to extract limited power for short-term camping or emergency use, not a plan to broadly send power to the electrical grid. It was just a hope, discussed here and there but never encouraged by GM.

From the perspective of getting a car out the door quickly, it certainly is better to keep it as simple as possible. On the other hand, a car that is more versatile has more value to the customer. The Volt is shaping up as a diva, not very versatile in the normal senses. You are not going to be able to put in an after-market sound system, for example. Insofar as emergency power, it will be less capable than my present truck.

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Jim in PA Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:17 am

#9 AutoElectric – No need to adapt the devices to high voltage… just put in a step-down transformer and run them off of that. But maybe that costs more than a battery.

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ozonelevel Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:25 am

#10 is right on! One could have made the case that buying a Volt would offset a $25K investment in a standby generator, making the car’s purchase price look cheap. Looks like we’ll have to wait for another alternative.

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Lawrence Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:30 am

[...]People ask if they will be able to access that energy to power their home during a blackout[...]

This is… ridiculous. Seriously brain damaging. If you “suffer” a blackout, get a candle…

What about adding a Plasma TV with embedded coffee machine when you go for your camping trip?… oh yes.. and an ice crusher…

The Volt is a car. Period. Drive from A to B. Got it?

:-/

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Sheltonjr Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:33 am

#15, A step down transformer only works for AC power.

There are plenty of DC-DC converters out in industry that can fill this function. And now they must have a DC-DC converter to charge the battery. Unless they do have an alternator to charge the battery, what a wast of space/power/money. It should not be needed for a high current starter motor. I would think the engine would be started via the generator/motor. Sounds like another item to maintain that doesn’t need to be there.

I agree with Jim I, This thread is creating alot more questions than it answers.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:34 am

#10 RB says,

My neighborhood is vulnerable to extended power outages, which occasionally go on for days at a time.

RB, could I ask why your neighborhood is subjected to this kind of problem? Power rarely goes out where I live and if it does, only for a few hours. One year it was out for 1 week because of a massive ice storm. But that is extremely rare.

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Right Lane Cruiser Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:36 am

If the Volt is configured like my Insight, the Prius, and the electric vehicle schematics I have studied so far, that 12V battery is there to both buffer the DC-DC output for peripherals and also to control the main contacts for the HV battery. When the car is off, there is no high voltage available. Switch it on and the 12V powers HV relays to access the big battery.

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statik Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:46 am

Re:

1. Customer access to High Voltage/Using it as a back-up gen

This capability won’t be available on gen 1,” says Volt spokesperson Rob Peterson

“The customer will have no access to high voltage. In fact, if the customer accidentally takes some action that might get them close to high voltage (e.g. disconnects a HV connection) then the system will cut off that voltage up stream of the potential breach. As with all systems, “nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool”, but we have a number of layers of HV protection for the customer, the service technician, and the vehicle assembler.”
———————————–

Translation:

“Oh you guys…how you make me laugh! We are working our tails off to make sure this battery gets through its ridiculous CARB 10/150 warranty….you think we are going to let you tap into it at will? No way, Chet! And if you do, this car is going to know….and that means we will know…and you are sooooooo screwed.”

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David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:47 am

Lawrence @ 17

I for one would have liked the benefit of using the Volt in electrical gird black-outs…not to run the entire house, but only to run power for our refrigerator and well-water pump.

When I first spoke to my wife about the Volt she was impressed when I informed her that the Volt may be able to power some household appliances during a black-out.

Consider how many impressed neighbors I would have if I was able to show them that we did not have to throw out any spoiled food!

And yes we do use candles.

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Tim Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:03 am

I’ll wait for gen II so that I can use my car for emergency backup power and save the $5K on that whole house backup generator.

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Guy Incognito Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:03 am

#5 Jim in PA

I think the purpose of the 12V battery is to provide dedicated power to the Volt’s ICE for purposes of starting it even if the Li-Ion battery pack is completely dead, disabled, or otherwise unable to supply power to the ICE’s starter.

Although the the 12V batery is redundant, its an added protection to prevent from being stranded should there be catastrophic failure of the Volt’s Li-Ion batery pack.

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ClarksonCote Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:05 am

There’s still a chance you could use the Volt for powering a fridge during a blackout, but it wouldn’t be an ideal situation.

Depending on how the 12V battery is powered, and what kind of load it can handle, it seems like you could turn the Volt on (i.e. so electricity is available), and then use an inverter off the 12V line to power a fridge.

They sell inverters for cars like that to plug into a cigarette lighter. I’m just not sure if the typical max power is sufficeint for all/some/none fridges.

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/howmuch.html says an average fridge uses 57-160watts, so it may very well be possible.

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16falcon Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:05 am

#20 Right Lane Cruiser Says:
If the Volt is configured like my Insight, the Prius, and the electric vehicle schematics I have studied so far, that 12V battery is there to both buffer the DC-DC output for peripherals and also to control the main contacts for the HV battery. When the car is off, there is no high voltage available. Switch it on and the 12V powers HV relays to access the big battery.
======================================================
I believe this is how my Ford Escape Hybrid is set up as well. The big (High Voltage) battery actually starts the ICE (which on a hybrid occurs very often) but if I don’t have a good 12V battery I can’t close the High Voltage relays therefore I’m unable to start the ICE. I can jump start another vehicle with the 12V battery or if my 12V battery fails, I can get a jump from someone else.

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RB Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:12 am

#19 Rashiid Amul asks
RB, could I ask why your neighborhood is subjected to this kind of problem? Power rarely goes out where I live and if it does, only for a few hours. One year it was out for 1 week because of a massive ice storm. But that is extremely rare.
———————————————

We have power outages basically because there are a lot of trees, and when there is a lot of rain and then wind they come down, here and there, and some of them fall across the power lines. The trees are beautiful. We enjoy them. They do have a downside. The situation is made more difficult by the fact that our utility (Duke Power) has sought to diminish costs by diminishing the number of emergency crews. Those remaining work extremely hard, but each outage takes a while to repair and not everyone can be first. About 10 days ago there were some thunderstorms that took down quite a few trees, which equaled 1 or 2 days without power for many many people.

Every place has its ups and downs with the weather. One learns to cope. In our case, we have a plan of what to do when the power goes out, as do most all of our neighbors. We don’t think of the situation as a special hardship, just something requiring advance planning.

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carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:18 am

The new Dodge EREV Nitro allows jump starting AND access to the HV terminals. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKL8ijvolD4

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Tim Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:18 am

Speaking of Gen II and beyond…

Researchers Develop Electrode Materials for High-Capacity Li-S Battery Cells

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/researchers-develop-electrode-materials-for-highcapacity-lis-battery-cells.html#more

“The Li-S battery is of interest due a high theoretical specific energy density (~2,600 Wh/kg) that exceeds that of conventional lithium-ion batteries by about a factor of five, good low-temperature performance, and its use of inexpensive and nontoxic raw materials.”

If Li-S batteries have 5X the energy density, could they be the next big thing? Will this mean that Gen II and beyond packs would be 1/5 the size, weight and cost of today’s pack or will this make 300+ mile range (@ 90% pack use) EVs possible and practical?

What about domestic natural gas for the range-extender?

What about this Range-Extender engine for the that will burn practically anything?

http://www.cyclonepower.com/

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ArkansasVolt Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:19 am

#4 Rashiid Amul

Very well stated. Though in engineering we say K.I.S.S. “Keep It Simple, Stupid!”

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Lawrence Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:21 am

David @ 22

Well, 2 questions:

1. How often does a black-out occur in your region a year?
2. If it happens, for how long on average each time?

Do you really need this feature on your car? I mean NEED? if a black-out occurs for about 3-4 hours, there’s no reason to have your food get spoiled. If it’s the case, you better invest for a good and efficient isolated fridge instead. You’ll be far more efficient energetically speaking on the long term.

But if you suffer periodical and long black-outs (is it often in the US?), well, isn’t a small and cheap Honda generator sufficient enough to keep the fridge working for that period?

Isn’t the Volt supposed to be designed for the mass? The “Mass” wants to drive from A to B on their own without spending too much money. The ability to plug in your house has really no real added-value, imo, and the additional complexity that this feature will require will probably make the VOLT even more expensive than it is.

Cheers

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Tagamet Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:26 am

PLEASE employ KISS on the gen I VOLT!!!
Barring some off topic posts, I think we’ll keep this thread under 200 posts (g).V2G has some huge pluses, but that’s only once the number of plugins gets WAY up there (e.g. millions).
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS

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Herm Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:38 am

This emergency “generator” would have been the killer application for the Volt, perhaps sucking up the whole supply of Volts for a few years.

I’m not talking about a measly 5kw inverter but go hog wild and supply 20-30kva, enough to run a house. This would be a heavy duty inverter since the Volts genset does not make 60hz electricity.

I would suggest a second mode in addition to charge sustaining, call it genset mode.. you dont want to use up the life of the battery doing this but it would be ok just to buffer the genset under momentary peak conditions but not draw down the battery significantly.. in other words the ICE would run most of the time except under very light inverter loads.

GM will have to invest in lots of software to make sure customers dont abuse the battery and its warranty. This is not V2G at all but could be expanded to that in later generations.

The “genset mode” should be an option, and not pushed on every buyer.. a profit opportunity for GM.

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David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:48 am

Lawrence @ 32

Why are you so resistant to having a “cool” option that allows one to power certain household appliances?

Do I “NEED” this option?…NO.
Will it keep me from buying the Volt?…NO.

Blackouts in my area have occurred frequently, in our relatively new neighborhood, in the past, although the blackouts have decreased somewhat in the number of occurrences. When we do have a blackout, it often on a warm sunny summer day. Go figure. When we have a blackout…we have no way of knowing how long the blackout will last.

Oh ya…when New York City had the blackout a few years back…we were without power as well (120 mile away).

Cheers…right back at ya.

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NZDavid Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:01 am

The 12 Volt battery runs the BMS and other small loads, and is needed to start the HV system which is off when not needed.
The HV system starts the ICE when needed.
The 12 Volt battery is recharged from the HV system, and is always on.
All very simple, didn’t we cover this back in 2007?

I truly believe it is a mistake NOT to offer a 120/240 A/C power point, as ONLY an EREV is set up to do this. It’s really the only function no ICE, or, BEV, can match. And it would be simple (and cheap) to do!
Certainly, any truck better have it. I really think it offers lots of marketing opportunities.

Why not a BEV? think range anxiety! Especially if your power was off for a day or two.

For me, a couple of hours a day to keep the water hot, then plug the fridge in for another couple of hours, then lighting at night. FTG all for me!

LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.

/And I wanna powerpoint! AIWP

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:02 am

Candles?

Candles are so ‘last century’.

We have one of those flashlites that you ‘crank’ for a few seconds and it runs for about 10 minutes. And another one that you just shake like hell with the same result.

Why use a 99-cent candle when you can use a $24.95 piece of high-technology?

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RB Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:03 am

#17 Lawrence says
This is… ridiculous. Seriously brain damaging. If you “suffer” a blackout, get a candle
———————————————–

With greatest respect, the condesencion expressed in your statement diminishes its strength.

For us it is a real need, not so much for lighting as for the refrigerator and, with a little more power, the water pump. Lack of lighting (or TV) is a minor issue, but lack of refrigeration and water gets serious.,

If the Volt had been able to handle this need, that fact alone would have justified its purchase, for me and some of our neighbors. But it doesn’t, so we can consider it as a small city car for 2 people, short range. If in the end it can be run without gasoline for short trips, that still will be a great achievement, even if narrowly focused.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:13 am

Volt to Grid is not the same as Volt to house. You should separate from the grid when you lose power and go to your own generator or else you might kill a utility worker or a fellow citizen by energizing downed wires back fed through the transformer at your house. Must install a break before make switch to disconnect utility power and connect to your genset.

Some old threads here have discussed the use of used Volt batteries to store power for home solar or windmill generators. Might be a good application .

Volt power for home emergency use is an attractive future application for many folks – if you are not interested -OK for you – but please don’t get into the mode of dictating the possibilities. This site is all about discussing possibilities.

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wrigley Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:16 am

Statik @21:

“Oh you guys…how you make me laugh! We are working our tails off to make sure this battery gets through its ridiculous CARB 10/150 warranty….you think we are going to let you tap into it at will? No way, Chet! And if you do, this car is going to know….and that means we will know…and you are sooooooo screwed.”
——————————————————————————————–

well, i guess it would be like taking your existing car and being able to detach the engine from the transmission, use it to generate power, then reattach it and want the warrenty to be the same?

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Lawrence Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:17 am

David K (CT) @ 36

In other circumstances, I would probably be less resistant about this issue. But it seems that the first thing to ever do is first have a working VOlt on the street, bring the mass from A to B in the way it has been designed to. All kind of unusual car options are useless.

If every of your neighboor got a volt in their garage, and assuming the electricity network is still too weak, well, I believe the volt will be for no help, since you’ll technically never be able to recharge it… as all of your neighbors couldn’t (grid overload).

And … statistics. Can u predict when a black-out occurs? and if it occurs, what is the chance/probability you have your Volt sticking in the garage, filled with enough juice to supply electricity back exactly at this moment?

Is it worth spending $$$ and time for that feature?

Blackouts have to be solved at the source.

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NZDavid Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:26 am

34 Herm.

Brother you use a LOT of power. I only use about 11 kWh’s per day!

My 36, Dang I forgot the kettle for coffee. Probably the most important of the lot!

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David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:26 am

Lawrence @ 41

“All kind of unusual car options are useless.”

Dude…your the only one against it. Give it up.

Besides, I’m not looking for the battery to supply the power, I want the Genset to run via the ICE and supply power periodically.

Nothing useless about it.

Either way I want my Blue Volt.

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k-dawg Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:28 am

Lawrence,

Lots of people in the US have generators. They cost $2000-$5000. But if you could use your Volt, and save that cash, why not? I think that’s what people are talking about. Saving the money of buying a generator.

I’m not sure where you are from, but blackouts occur maybe once a year during heavy storms where I live.

#25 ClarksonCote
What you’re describing is the same as sticking a 12V to 120V adapter in your current car’s cigarette lighter. I dont think the power is there.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:29 am

Article said: “People ask if they will be able to access that energy to power their home during a blackout, or for camping, by attaching an inverter to the Volt. “This capability won’t be available on gen 1,” says Volt spokesperson Rob Peterson, ”

@ FME III said:
“As for V2G, I’m glad they didn’t put effort into pursuing that for Gen 1, since the grid isn’t ready for it, anyway.”

That’s a completely false statement.

I already do V2G with my electric vehicle. Yes, the grid is ready (indeed, even anxious to get some cheap energy from a mobile, stored source during peak hours) and inverters are cheap and easy to set up and use – how do your think the millions of grid tied solar systems work (and have worked for decades) in the US? I’m starting to get a little tired of the wildly uninformed statements and blatant falsehoods that continually pop up in the thread on this site. I know this site has plenty of knowledgable folks on it, so let’s counter these things as they come up. Don’t leave all the heavy lifting of the veil of ignorance to liitle ‘ole me.

May I humbly request that before folks make bold and false claims, based on absolutely nothing real, in the future, that they bother to first purchase and use for at least one year a plug in electric vehicle and try different things (uses, fuel sources, V2G if you are interested in learning more technical skills about how your vehicle works, etc.) with it BEFORE they leap off the cliff into boneheaded falsehoods?

I try to speak from:
1) personal, real world experience owning and using a high performance electric vehicle daily for thousands and thousands of miles

2) opinions based on deep study of topics, which can be backed up by multiple credible studuies that do not rely soly on projections, conjectures or busniess as usual assumptions. If the topics are wildly off topic, such as health economics, I probably won’t bother to cite sources, but rest assured, my strange comments are based on more than my wild imaginings, unlike FME III’s, unless identified as such (ex. Tesla Roadster Sport editions as police interceptors).

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Lawrence Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:31 am

David K (CT) @ 43

kk, I give up.

Gonna get a beer then…

/kicks the cat

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David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:33 am

Have a beer for me.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:37 am

@ Rashiid Amul

“One year it was out for 1 week because of a massive ice storm. ”

No. The power went out because irresponsible property owners with deficient land stewardship ethics and lazy utilities did not trim overhanging branches on a periodic basis, as any prudent person would. It’s not rocket science. Keep stuff that can come down on power lines and knock down power poles away from the fall line onto power lines and poles. duh.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I’m tired of people blaming nature for their own laziness.

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Herm Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:37 am

I have two generators myself..

Its not the issue of the cost but the safety and convenience of having a built-in gas tank in the Volt genset. You lose power for two weeks after a hurricane and pretty soon you will be dealing with lots and lots of gas cans and daily trips looking for gas to fill said cans. The disadvantage of having an electric home.

Also filling up a hot generator is not the safest thing in the world.
………………………………..
#44 k-dawg Says:

Lawrence,
Lots of people in the US have generators. They cost $2000-$5000. But if you could use your Volt, and save that cash, why not?

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David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:39 am

Electric Vehicle Owner

WOW. Let’s just cut all the trees down so we don’t have power outages.

I’m sure NOTHING else causes power outages.

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charlie h Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:42 am

“The ability to use the Volt for limited external power is a small feature in the big scheme of things, but for us it would have been a strong reason to purchase the car, in that it could replace the $25K backup systems we otherwise need.”

This ties the car down to the house; maybe not the best use of a car. And while most of us can get by with candles and campstoves for a short while, you have special needs. Expecting a car to serve them is not realistic.

Incidental A/C power, especially from a “work truck” (GM has done this in the past with their very, very mild hybrid 2004 Silverado) is probably a convenience worth a few bucks (included free is better) but running a house for days?

As a selling point for the car, this is very, very minor. Few are going to want such capability or be prepared to use it.

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Jackson Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:43 am

The electric motor in the volt is an AC induction type. The HV battery is DC. Contradiction? No; a controller transforms the high voltage DC into pulses of varying frequencies as the motor’s speed changes.

Why would it be hard to use this same controller (already onboard anyway), to generate 60Hz pulses for power outlets? (This would also insure that no one would try to use the Volt as a power supply while it is in motion — not recommended, at least not at the power levels we’re discussing).

As for the lead-acid 12VDC battery, I can only think of one word to describe this: FAIL. A DC/DC converter should have been used (as I had assumed it would be).

For that matter, wouldn’t there be value to GM in coming up with a replacement for conventional lead acid using the same prismatic Li-ion cells? This would create more volume for the cells, which would help lower costs overall (in addition to improving the automotive experience for everyone by not having balky Lead-Acid batteries to replace every 2 – 3 years).

This is disappointing news, and another reason (after cost and dealer markups) to wait for Gen II.

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CDAVIS Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:45 am

______________________________________________________
Less than 10 days before GM starts building the full integration Volt vehicles!
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
______________________________________________________

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statik Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:49 am

#40 Wrigley said:

Statik @21 said:

Translation:
“Oh you guys…how you make me laugh! We are working our tails off to make sure this battery gets through its ridiculous CARB 10/150 warranty….you think we are going to let you tap into it at will? No way, Chet! And if you do, this car is going to know….and that means we will know…and you are sooooooo screwed.”
——

well, i guess it would be like taking your existing car and being able to detach the engine from the transmission, use it to generate power, then reattach it and want the warrenty to be the same?
==========================

Exactly my point.

No way they would even consider that for a ICE. The use of the engine for any specific purpose other than what it was intended at the point of sale, would cause them to not honor the warranty…so why would they even remotely consider this option on a EV?

For example, ‘in my youth’ I installed aftermarket stereo equipment in a new Grand AM, and guess what happened when I had electrical problems in my dash 8 months later? (it was actually ’smoking’ dash…so thats not good). Yupe, you guessed it…no warranty. (I got it fixed at a 3rd party shop, and when I asked, they said it was coming from the heating controls and had nothing to do with my stereo). Same thing if you install a ‘tow hitch’ not by the OEM…bad news if there is a problem, related or not.

The ICE warranty benchmark is probably 10, 20 fold easier to achieve without incident than the 10/150 on EVs, you have to assume there will be zero tolerance policy here.

There is a lot of talk of ‘how easy it would be’ or how it could/will happen in the future, but this is strictly a ‘bean counter’ issue…and it is not going to happen. Now now…not for gen 2…not for gen 3, not ever. I’m sure the more handy of us here can ‘rig’ it to do what we want (or at aftermarket shops)…but we do so at our own peril.

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:55 am

@45 Electric Vehicle Owner,

EVO, what kind of EV do you own/drive?

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Jackson Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:02 am

Those of you who think the on-board power issue can be solved by a small stand-alone generator have had far better luck with small engines than I have. I my experience, it is a major challenge to get a seldom-used small engine started and running on the rare occasion it is needed.

Starting a lawnmower before that first cut of the season is bad enough.

With Volt as a power source, the small-engine curse is lifted, and you have the advantage of a system which has been running normally to tap. This would be a significant value added over a normal Honda-type generator.

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Luke Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:05 am

I’m glad to hear that safety is part of the high-voltage system design!!!

Lack of “customer access” doesn’t mean that an engineering-minded customer can’t do it:
http://www.priups.com
This guy (a professional radio engineer, so unusually qualified to work with high voltage DC without killing himself) was able to tap into the electrical system of a Prius and attach an inverter, and has used it to power his house during blackouts. Apparently, the Prius’s controls deal with power being siphoned away pretty well. I hear he’s done similar work with a Toyota Highlander and he might have been thinking of trying it on Ford Escape Hybrid, too.

He’s not the only one doing this thing — I’ve read about a HAM radio operator who’s tapped into the high voltage system, and attached his own DC-DC converter to power the radios. He said he could let the car “idle” all night while running his radios – and the gas engine would only use about a half gallon worth of gas. Pretty cool stuff.
http://wa8lmf.net/mobile/prius/index.htm

Of course, there’s no f-ing way I’d recommend someone without a strong background in electrical safety and engineering should open those panels that say “no user serviceable parts inside”… But I’m pretty sure that someone will do this, and that we’ll hear about some really neat hacks to the Volt.

-Luke

P.S. If GM’s service manuals say “don’t do this” (possibly to the extent of voiding the vehicle’s warranty), that’s probably a good thing. It should discourage those who shouldn’t be doing this sort of thing, provides the company with liability protection, and doesn’t interfere with an individual’s right to tinker with their own property. Those of us who alter computer equipment beyond the manufacturer’s spec for our own purposes accept this deal, and consider it a point of pride.

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naurthandareen Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:11 am

Volt to power your house!

JUST BUY A 1000 DOLLAR GENERATOR!!!
AND 400 DOLLAR PORTABLE GENERATOR FOR YOUR CAMPING NEEDS…instead of using ur 30 thousand dollar beloved VOLT you morons!!!!

This is ridiculous, i cant believe some people wants everything in a car and expects more!!!

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Jackson Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:12 am

When GM announced it’s US pack-assembly ambitions, I suggested that they come up with Li-ion replacement batteries for lead-acid for use in non-erev, non-electric cars, for the purpose of building cell volumes and adding driving value.

Since then, I’ve been thinking about some of the more practical aspects of this; and the subject has never come up for me to comment on.

It has been observed that Li-ion batteries of this kind have heating and cooling issues more stringent than lead-acid’s. What if the prismatic cells were encased in an inner container, immersed in a coolant. The coolant would have the function of conducting heat from the prismatic cells to the inner surface of the container, in an even fashion. An outer case would be covered on all sides by a heat-sink.

As the temperature of the cells rise, the coolant would deliver this heat (ultimately) to the outside of the inner container. In the air-gap between the inner and outer container, a series of bi-metal devices would flex, causing a metal conduction path for the heat to travel from the inner container to the outer.

In this way, a sub-arctic day won’t freeze the Li-ion; once the inner temperature drops, the bi-metal devices will change shape, and isolate the inner container from the outside temperature. On a blistering hot day, the bi-metal devices will stay extended to dump all the heat to the heat sink.

To replace an existing lead-acid design, the outside diameter of the heat-sink would match the outer dimensions of the battery to be replaced (the much higher energy density of the Li-ion means that more-than-adequate power can come from the smaller inner containment vessel).

This requires neither advanced pumps and radiators, nor risks premature death of the Li-ion cells.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:12 am

RB #27,

Thank you for your response.

I have always been an advocate for buried power. If for anything, to avoid trees and vehicles taking out the power lines.

In CT, all new sub-divisions must have buried service. But the old ones are still above ground and have the same issues you have.

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carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:14 am

A cheaper idea would be to buy a used prius and hack it with a $100 inverter.

http://earthfirst.com/your-prius-can-act-as-an-emergency-generator/

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Luke Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:14 am

Charlie H @ 51,

This ties the car down to the house; maybe not the best use of a car. And while most of us can get by with candles and campstoves for a short while, you have special needs. Expecting a car to serve them is not realistic.

This would have been fine for me during the ice storm that hit my area just before Christmas. It was a multi-day outage, and I just needed to run the furnace blower and the refrigerator for a few hours a day. Being able to recharge my laptop, cell phone, and the UPS that was running my Internet connection would have been a big bonus. Being able to run power tools would have been even better. I wasn’t going anywhere, and the non-critical needs would have been fine if I had to run to the gas station for an hour.

Other people have different needs, of course, so a hybrid that can provide emergency power won’t replace everything. Standby generators and portable generators make a lot of sense in a lot of cases. But I only needed a few hours of power a day to keep the house from freezing and to keep my food from thawing, so a power-take-off from a car would have been perfect — and I wouldn’t have had to purchase, store, and maintain a portable generator.

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NZDavid Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:17 am

Jackson at 52. See my 36.
You need the 12 volt battery to run the Battery management system (BMS) and other sub systems when the HV battery is disengaged. Unlocking doors with remote etc. Without it you would need to run the HV system 24/7, not so efficient.

Ststik. Probably not legal, but I wouldn’t mind GM adding a few miles to counter the current I was drawing down. BTW final of FOTC today, and I missed it. grrrrr.

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Jim Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:27 am

I totally agree with those on this site that want the ability to use the Volt as a generator. It would be a great option to have over a dedicated generator for all of the reasons stated:

1. I suspect that the Volt would be WAY MORE QUIET than the typical Chinese-made emergency generator. And as has been mentioned, said Chinese-made will be real pain to try to start once-in-a-blue-moon.

2. My wife and I were considering buying a lakeside cabin with no electricity. We weren’t keen on the whole noisy/smelly generator concept. The Volt would be perfect for this.

3. The Volt would NOT be tied to the house for good. I know when we’ve had short (i.e. less than 2 hour) outages, nothing is really affected in our house (other than clocks).

4. I would be really willing to pay a few hundred dollars for a generator option.

Ice storm tests mettle of Harvard residents
by Valerie Hurley · Friday, December 19, 2008

John Sweeney, a member of the town’s conservation-minded Heat Advisory Committee, took a characteristically green approach to powering his home during the storm. He reported his achievement in an e-mail, saying it was no big deal, but that his wife thought it an impressive tale worth sharing: Sweeney ran his refrigerator, freezer, TV, woodstove fan, and several lights through his Prius, for three days, on roughly five gallons of gas.

“When it looked like we were going to be without power for awhile, I dug out an inverter (which takes 12v DC and creates 120v AC from it) and wired it into our Prius…These inverters are available for about $100 many places online,” he wrote.

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NZDavid Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:31 am

carcus @61.
Thanks for the link. You could do the same to your Volt’s 12V supply and by leaving it ‘on’ the HV battery would recharge the 12V battery as needed, with the ICE coming on to part charge the HV battery as required.

Do NOT do this with any car in a garage!

/Don’t think I would leave my Volt outside, powered up, with the keys in it!

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Jackson Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:38 am

NZDavid (#63):

Okay, I guess you’re right. But it does smell a little fishy that there is another potential dealer-service point right at the time GM is shucking dealers. Does this mean that there’s a little alternator and belt to keep it charged, or is there a DC-to-DC converter that charges it from the HV battery? (somehow I doubt it). And it’s a shame that they didn’t come up with a more innovative solution to this (see my #59).

So, how do you like living in New Zealand? (I might drop by the next time I’m near Antarctica )

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Mark Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:49 am

Sure, the Volt can jump start another car, but can another car jump-start the Volt?

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Jerry Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:50 am

Reality check. 99.99% of people buying the car could care less about using it as a generator. This is hobbyist stuff. GM is getting off into the weeds if they are thinking about things like this. Just build the car and keep the price low.

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:09 am

#65 NZDavid said, “Do NOT do this with any car in a garage!”

Ironically, I just posted a topic about carbon monoxide and EREV on the forums. Those interested can check it out here:

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2931

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:14 am

DavidK (CT)

“WOW. Let’s just cut all the trees down so we don’t have power outages.”

No. Nice way to be irrational and extreme.

1. The outage mentioned was noted as being specifically related to an ice storm. I did not address all causes of power outages. That was not the topic.

2. I didn’t say to cut all the trees down. Property owners and utilities have a legal obligation to trim tree limbs over power line to migitage potential public damages through power outages caused by tree limbs breaking and falling on power lines, a well known risk associated with highly predictable ice storms (not the exact date and time but that they consistently can occur with frequency in some parts of the country). Those who fail to learn from history and act preventively will suffer power outages. Pruning a plant is not the same as cutting it down (or maybe it is to you?).

3. Again, this is not rocket science or extremism. It’s simple, well known risk management that’s being inadequately performed by an increasingly irresponsible society, especially property owners and utilities. You don’t think there are consequences to laziness and inaction?

4. Failure to manage property responsibly is still a type of property management. I’ll let others who are not as nice as me suggest the common terms for that style of management.

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Shock Me Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:14 am

Seems like a fuel cell backup generator fueled with hydrogen by electrolysis from a solar panel would make a better standby generator. Plus it doesn’t have to drive away to get anyone to work.

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Tim Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:19 am

Jerry (#68) said:

“Reality check. 99.99% of people buying the car could care less about using it as a generator.”

Please show us the source of your statistic.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:22 am

1. V2G does not require customer access to high voltage.
2. Jump starting another car is a completely separate concept from V2G or customer access to high voltage.

This artlcle muddles three things together, so readers know less and are likely more confused after reading it than before. Perhaps the message was meant to be “The Volt is as safe or safer that any pure gas vehicle. Owners, drivers and passengers can never get a high voltage shock from it.” I’d say that message, if meant, was poorly expressed by the spokesperson.

Of course the capability for V2G will be available on the Volt. Power able to flow in = the capability and functionality for power to flow the opposite direction.

I’m glad for this article, though, because it highlights that GM and the users of this site have a MASSIVE amount of education about electric drive vehicles to learn and get out to the public, repeatedly. I get the impression from this article that GM doesn’t understand how electric vehicles work.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:23 am

Well, all I have to say is it’s just a car, let’s use it as so.
I would normally, for the purpose of being able to get to the batt pack electrically, say i’d find a way to get to it but the battery voltage @ 400VDC makes it out of reach for anything device to plug into. Even a 400VDC Vin DC/DC converter would cost an arm and a leg. Besides, I don’t know of any commodity type things that a normal Joe Schmo can buy to connect to a 400VDC pack.
Just in case you are interested in getting a DC/DC converter, here’s one any Schmo can get: http://donau.kicms.de/cebi/easyCMS/FileManager/Files/MES-DEA/components/Dcdc_1-2_kW.pdf
Wiring it is up to you.

I would only want to get to it to augment the batt pack to add maybe another 400VDC 10Ah pack or a set of UltraCaps.

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RB Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:24 am

#60 Rashiid Amul says
“I have always been an advocate for buried power. If for anything, to avoid trees and vehicles taking out the power lines.”
——————————————————————-

The trend you describe in CT is the same as the trend here in NC.

The utility is willing for it to be either way, but the original installation cost for underground power is considerably greater, so someone other then the utility — a city or developer– has to be willing to pay the additional instillation costs. In the meantime, we work with what we have (smile).

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k-dawg Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am

@49 Herm

The Volt may only have a 6 gallon tank.

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RB Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:30 am

#70 Electric Vehicle Owner says “Again, this is not rocket science or extremism. It’s simple, well known risk management that’s being inadequately performed by an increasingly irresponsible society, especially property owners and utilities. You don’t think there are consequences to laziness and inaction?”
————————————————————–

Cutting branches off 100-foot trees close to high-energy wires requires special equipment and training, if it is to be done safely. In our area trimming is done by the electric utility (Duke Power), which on the whole does a reasonable job here in NC. As you may have noticed, trees do grow (lighten up and smile here), some fast, some slow, all depending on the weather, so trimming is a big, expensive and ongoing job, not just “laziness”. In any event, I have no control over the line a mile “upstream” from my house, so pragmatically I have to cope with whatever happens.

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ccombs Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:33 am

I don’t think, on gen II, you’ll need to worry about messing up the battery by using the Volt as a generator. You’ll probably just source power directly from the engine/generator, not from the battery (with perhaps conversion back to AC?). Sure it will use gas, but I find that better than cycling the battery and all the issues that entails. It would be nice to use the Volt (or more usefully- a Voltec light truck) to power something at a worksite instead of having to lug a noisy, inefficient generator there. Backup for home power would also be nice, as long as you have extra gas. I feel like there are a myriad of uses for the generator, but many of them will only be used frequently in a Voltec vehicle used for work (construction, etc).

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:34 am

@ 55 Mike-O-Matic

Not that it matters at all to the points of the article, how V2G works, or how customer access to high voltage in an electric vehicle works or about jump starting another vehicle, the points of this article, but it’s a street legal, highway capable electric motorcycle that’s my daily commuting driver. It can beat a 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP off the line easily, thanks to maximum torque at zero rpm.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:38 am

@RB 77

Over in suburbia in CA (I live in the ghetto), all new neighborhoods from the past 10 years have underground electricals. Instead of trees taking out power lines, cars are taking out those “Green Power Boxes” next to the streets. Apparently those service more homes than power poles. So I’m told.
Sh|t happens, I get it.

Back to Kahlua & Coffee….

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Mark Bartosik Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:41 am

I had hoped that GM would provide some sort of access to high voltage side, but controlled. For example, controlled via CAN bus (Car Area Network) such that additional cycles could count on the odometer, with inverter for 120/240v provided by third party bolt-on. But I seriously doubted it would happen for gen 1.

For a Voltec truck 120/240v supply would be a an expected option.

If the 12v system is able to provide sizable continuous power output, and will cause ICE to trigger if it is near drained, then it could still be used, inefficiently, to recharge a battery solar electric system (typically 24v or 48v) – allowing solar electric to handle larger loads than 12v car inverter would (e.g. heat pump or A/C). No where near as effective as the ideal solution of using Voltec AC induction motor controller to output 120/240v @ 50/60Hz.

I could see a Voltec with 120/240v AC being very very popular on the US Gulf coast and south eastern coastline. I would easily have paid the some thousands more for such a feature.

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k-dawg Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:47 am

@58 Naurthandareen

Who needs a camera on their cell phone?
Who needs peanut butter in their chocolate?

No one….. but its nice to have the combo.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:48 am

@ RB said:
“Cutting branches off 100-foot trees close to high-energy wires requires special equipment and training, if it is to be done safely. In our area it is done by the electric utility (Duke Power), which on the whole does a reasonable job here in NC.”

Sure, and for lower trees encroaching, but not yet over local, lower voltage lines it’s still a job for pruning professionals, who act in coordination with power utilities as need be. This kind of professional activity happens all the time and has a long history in the US. The property owner still needs to be involved and notify the correct professionals and make payments as appropriate when they have power lines being encroached upon by growing vegetation that could create future outage risks. You folks (DavidK) think that energy services are completely free or maintenance free or don’t require appropraite risk abatement measures based on some forethought?

RB, thank you for pointing out that what I suggested utilities do, pruning tree limbs, is, in fact, perfectly normal, reasonable behavior that prudent utilities do all the time to minimize power outages from falling branches. Of course trees grow, which is why it’s ongoing maintenance, not a once in infinity task (did I say that it was only once?).

Fo those of you that have frequent power outages in your area due to falling tree limbs (ice storm or no ice storm) or see overhanging branmches that are a potential future risk, I suggest writing to your regional utility company, developers, home owner associations, legislators, etc. with the details of the overhanging branches and asking them why they are not doing their jobs as many utilities and property owners do, in fact, do their jobs and manage their property responsibly, as RB points out.

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ccombs Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 11:53 am

#56 Jackson

I was wondering what the heck you meant by “first cut of the season” then I realized…it must snow where you are. Lol, I need to get out more. Well, I suppose you have one less thing to be jealous of Californians about- we have to mow all year long.

Winter = green… summer = brown, dead stuff — all other patterns are just weird.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

“These inverters are available for about $100 many places online,” he wrote.”
Wow, did he get gouged.

CJS – folks with grid tied solar systems (a likely core market for Volt sales) are already there. Just bonk on an energy storage backup system such as non-grid tied (islanded) solar systems all have and the Volt can then be part of your storage/backup system. Not exactly rocket science, but you probably want your solar installer to be up to snuff ( at least NABCEP certified) to do the minor work to make the V2G portion work optimally. The critical part is the anti-islanding, not V2G, and that’s part of the grid tie process, no matter how small and cheap your solar system.

My V2G tech is way lower tech, cheaper and portable than that, yet still safe for linemen (if the grid ain’t live, it ain’t sending power to it). Of course, my power pack is smaller than the Volt’s so I have less to deal with. Please note that I do not have a solar system and use wind power almost exclusively (a little solar when visiting some friends in the next county).

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carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

CharlieH mentions @ 51, but here’s another link.
—
“In addition to improvements in fuel economy and emissions, the GM hybrid pickups feature four 120-volt, 20 amp electrical auxiliary power outlets under the rear seat of the cab and in the pickup bed that can accommodate up to four accessories while driving or when parked. With this auxiliary generator capability, the truck’s generator can operate when the truck is parked without a key in the ignition and can be used to power anything from tools at a construction site to appliances at a campsite.

In the event of a power outage, the hybrid Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups could power tools or appliances for up to 32 hours non-stop. This design shuts the engine down before the tank is emptied, leaving enough gas to drive to a station for refueling. All power supply circuits are protected by a ground fault detection system to prevent overloads and short circuits.”
Chevrolet Hybrid / GMC Sierra Hybrid
http://www.hybrid-car.org/chevy-silverado-hybrid.html
—
GM has offered this option before. It seems to me it could be done (on the volt) without much cost and without putting the batteries at risk . Wether it would be a selling point? Probably to a limited group. Why not just offer it as an upgrade?

It looks like the auxiliary power option was discontinued on later model hybrid pickups (someone correct me if I’m wrong) Was the reason lack of interest in this feature?, safety or other technical ?

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

oops, should be linepersons.

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FME III Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

#45 Electric Vehicle Owner

I’ll concede your point that yes, at an elementary level, the grid can handle V2G because we can send power back to the grid. I was referring to the next-generation “smart grid” that we’ve been promised in the future — the grid that lets the grid tap into EVs when needed, that keeps track of whose car is receiving the charge at a public charging station etc.

Regardless, you seem to have a lot of anger inside about this issue. Take a chill pill, brother.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

carcus and charlie H.

So , this thread now has four completely different topics.

1. Customer access to high voltage on Volt.
2. V2G
3. Jump starting other vehicles from the Volt.
4. Power take off possibilities from the Volt for power tools, lights, camping, a la existing GM aux power outlet options. (I would find this application to be highly desirable as an option if there’s on onboard liquid/gas fuel generator, myself, as it doesn’t require the electric drive or power pack and ups the optional functionality of the Volt hugely and helps defend the use of a liquid/gas fuel generator at all.)

Each of these topics could easily create multiple Ph.D. dissertations, but maybe each topic deserves it’s own article/thread, so folks (well, me, really) don’t get so muddled?

No wonder people (me) on this site are confused and have no idea how the Volt is going to work (me again).

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Brian Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

Toyota and Honda are racking up huge sales in a Hybrid price war. Toyota is expecting to sell 400,000 units a year. The sweet spot price point seems to be around 20k.

Makes me wonder.
Why isn’t GM even showing up to this party? They have had 13 years to answer the Prius and still nothing? Do they think a car priced almost 70% higher than these will make an impact?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-rolls-out-new-Prius-apf-15275034.html

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

What kind of range would a compressed air based generaor give the Volt, do you folks think? Just asking. Folks would finally have frequently properly inflated tires, anyway, if they went this route. Was this topic already beaten to death in a prior thread?

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David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

Electric Vehicle Owner

Thanks for all your insight and wisdom…

But I am confused, should I want my Volt to be able to power my frig and well pump during blackouts or not?

p.s.

Did you tell us what electric vehicle you drive and I simply missed it?

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

Let’s clarify something with V2G.
The basic principle is to send the energy, batt pack or Genset, back into the grid via a DC to AC inverter and a grid tie. That part is easy.

The Volt will be a DC power source. We all have been looking at the lipo pack and at initial connection to V2G you will source from the pack. Now everyone needs to remember that there is a Cycle point where you start to lose your DOD to 80% or 70%. That’s just the nature of lipos.

Now for every V2G connection where you are sending power up the grid, you are essentially “Cycling” the batt pack and is counted per GM. So, In a nutshell, V2G is a negative hit to your life of the batt pack.

No thanks on the V2G. I’ll put a bank of 500VDC high power foreward biased diodes to prevent this.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

#58 naurthandareen Says:

JUST BUY A 1000 DOLLAR GENERATOR!!!
AND 400 DOLLAR PORTABLE GENERATOR FOR YOUR CAMPING NEEDS…instead of using ur 30 thousand dollar beloved VOLT you morons!!!!

This is ridiculous, i cant believe some people wants everything in a car and expects more!!!

———–
I agree. The people here are complete morons. They want their car to be used as a generator. How ridiculous, stupid, and laughable.

Not me, though. No sir. Not me. I just want my Volt to fly over traffic. Fly and have an ejector seat on the passenger side. Ya, and while I’m at it, I want it to float like a boat so my passengers can water ski off the back.
But that is it. Oh wait. Auto pilot would be good too.

But not something like a generator. Sheeezzz. What are some people thinking?

(Quote)
noel park Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

It would have been handy, maybe, but I can live without it. Regular was $2.43 last night at our local ARCO. It is going up pretty rapidly here in SoCal too.

I remarked to my wife when we drove past the station last night that it’s remarkable how they are able to “Get our minds right”. If it hits $3 this summer, so what? At least it’s not $4!.

KISS

LJGTVWOTR!!

NPNS!

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

EVO @ 89

4 topics, all technical . . . now that’s my kind of thread.

Seriously though, to me, the one of most interest is the generator capability (which really isn’t part of the lead in article, anyway).

I just think the “technical enthusiasts/ camper / my electric service frequently fails” crowd would very much appreciate that they could get the equivalent of a high dollar (many thou$ands) standby generator as an added bonus when they purchase a volt.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

#90 Brian:

No kidding! How about a BAS Cobalt? How hard could that be?

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

FME III

Chill pill taken.

Sorry if I seem too direct, but if you’ve seen as much negative FUD spread about how fall off a log obvious electric drive ease of use and integration really is, you’d be actually angry. For me, it’s just a little wearing to see false obstacles carelessly and constantly thrown in the way by those who are doubtfully that personally experienced in what they discuss.

I very much appreciate your distinction of the “smart grid”, primarily a made up method to spread the ongoing electric drive wealth to municipailties and power companies to get them on board with the obvious.

Even though I do V2G during peak hours, use the grid exactly as is (since 1889) just great and on net use less total consumer power with my electric vehicle than I did without it, my utility doesn’t track it (mostly because they are lazy, don’t care yet and are waiting for things to force them to bother to notice new markets and opportunities for rates to go down at the same time utilities become more profitable). I’m tracking every penny of extra profit and every kWh of surplus load smoothing power my electric vehicle gives my utility, though, I assure you.

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

CaptJack @ 93

What if we had a source point right from the Genset that allowed us to plug our frig into and we were able to tell the volt to run the Genset, even if the battery was at “full” charge?

How would this be any different that driving across country non-stop?

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

DavidK (CT) 92:

“Electric Vehicle Owner
Thanks for all your insight and wisdom…”

Sure, common knowledge expounded cheerfully. Certianly, this country seems to lack for it.

“But I am confused, should I want my Volt to be able to power my frig and well pump during blackouts or not?”

Only you know what you want, DavidK. Or maybe you don’t. If the potential purchasers of the Volt have no idea what they want from the Volt (or options or different versions of it) and can’t also manage to articulate their wants if they know them, then GM can only fail.

“p.s.
Did you tell us what electric vehicle you drive and I simply missed it?”

Yes, many, many times.

Happy to be of service for free. Just remember that you tend to get what you pay for.

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

89 Brian

“Do they think a car priced almost 70% higher than these will make an impact? ”

Yes, it’s called the tipping point to all electric drive at a cost of almost 70% less than the current best existing electric highway capable vehicle.

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

@David K (CT)

“and we were able to tell the volt to run the Genset, even if the battery was at “full” charge?”

That’s the missing key. Until I can get my hands on the car we won’t know if it is possible. I am positive there will be “Diagnostic” mode that may be reachable. Till we can get to that point anything else in trying to tap the Genset power will be mute. Honestly, I think the Genset will be the easiest to tap.

If that bridge HAS been crossed (hypothetically of course), then all you would have to do is plug in that DC/DC converter ( http://donau.kicms.de/cebi/easyCMS/FileManager/Files/MES-DEA/components/Dcdc_1-2_kW.pdf ) then a Pure Sine Inverter to it and your good to go. Of course that’s all theory and the major bridge to cross is to get the Genset on.

DO not use a “Modified Sine Wave” inverter to the house. It makes pumps and motors run less efficient and hotter.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

#95 (me) add,

Purchase a volt, and get (the equivalent of) one of these . . . . FOR FREE!
http://www.gopower.com/prod/generators_50kwjohndeeresoundattenuatedgeneratorsetw2ftrailer_1684_.html

OOOHHh, oh oh oh oh. (ala Tim Allen)

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k-dawg Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

@ 90 EVO
why even bother going from compressed air to electrical?
check out this car in India
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html

(fyi – this is in jest)

(Quote)
statik Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

#62 NZDavid said:

Ststik. Probably not legal, but I wouldn’t mind GM adding a few miles to counter the current I was drawing down. BTW final of FOTC today, and I missed it. grrrrr.
——
They go back to New Zealand…oops, hehe.

=================================
#32 Tag says:

PLEASE employ KISS on the gen I VOLT!!!
Barring some off topic posts, I think we’ll keep this thread under 200 posts (g).V2G has some huge pluses, but that’s only once the number of plugins gets WAY up there (e.g. millions).
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS
—-
Is that a dare?

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

CJS 92

Clarification noted.

Er, you know the power pack is lithium based, right? Life of the power pack in absolute life in years from birth of the cells and discharge/charge level and rate control is way, way more important than number of cycles with that large a pack for getting the longest vehicle life from the pack.

If you want to emasculate the capabilities of your electric vehicle and make it less than it can be, you go right ahead. I

have no such interest in throwing yet another false obstacle at electric drive and all it and its accompanying systems can do for us. GM can simply say “warranty in gen I voided if V2G occurs. We have your big brother power company watching as soon as they get that there “smart grid” thing in place.” In the meantime, I’m doing great daily with my electric vehicle and see most actions suggested for grid intergration / mainstreaming electric vehicles as short term steps backwards compared to just plain getting performance electric vehicles built and on the road. Sure, we can make all sorts of exotic, complex luxury tweaks to both electric vehicles and infrastructure as we go and figure out how folks use things in the real world, as I do. In the meantime, get the things on the road in retail consumers hands, already.

Rashiid 93

Cute. Anything (even wanting an object in the vehicle to perform more than one mainstream task, but not simultaneously) that enough morons consistently want extra on the Volt that allows GM to profit and make per vehicle marginal profits sooner, I vote for as an offered option (subject to a minimal number of orders (i.e. sufficient demand) making it worth their while as an additional version). They already make these kinds of calculations with the Silverado, etc., so we’ll see if there’s a micro-pickup truck/camper version of the Volt when we see.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

Do they think a car priced almost 70% higher than these will make an impact?
_______________________

I’ve been scratching my head for years wondering why GM doesn’t set PRICE as a priority. They spare no expense to build an exciting vehicle very few can actually afford with little regard to competition. Why?

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

@carcus1 102

Dude, check this out. LiFePO4 3.2VDC 100Ah Prismatic cells…
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP200AHA
$220.00 each.
Thundersky cells. They also have “SkyEnergy” cells.

Prices seem to be going down quite a bit.

(Quote)
Unni Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

Volt may have a 12 volt output, I can see practical use of it

1) For the starter of range extender ICE
2) To power the control circuits

Refer :

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/electric-car2.gif

Off the track :

I was going through the volt pages and was looking on the team, there is only 11 people and they even gave the Battery test Engineer (she is doing masters so battery test should be a intern project or so ). The volt engineering has only 5 people.

http://media.gm.com/volt/people/index.html

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

@108 Unni

The battery test engineer went to the same school as me. IMO, Its a good school, so I feel a little more relieved.

Also, i’m sure there are tons of engineers not mentioned working the Volt project. These are the “face people”.

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

Unni # 108
Off the track :

I was going through the volt pages and was looking on the team, there is only 11 people and they even gave the Battery test Engineer (she is doing masters so battery test should be a intern project or so ). The volt engineering has only 5 people.
_________________________
I don’t understand the conclusions you’re making here by pointing out division heads, chiefs and managers responsible for Volt Development????

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

#107 CaptJack,

Yeah, that’s cheap. About the $340/kwh price (if we’re figuring 3.2v nominal and 200ah, that’s a 640wh battery for $220). ($220/.64 = $343.75)

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

I must say I am not at all convinced of the need to power my house if it loses electrical current from the grid. If I thought it was important enough, I would buy a Honda generator and keep it handy. I don’t want to see my $40,000 Volt and battery being used for such a purpose. I know some of you had stars in your eyes with scenes of dancing plums swimming through you itty-bitty heads, but not me. I hope that if that is a feature of a future Volt, it will be an option that those of you who want it can pay for it. Same goes for all of the V2G stuff. I don’t want any of it. Just plug it in and let it charge itself on the schedule I ask for. Nothing else. Keep it simple and clean and working.

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

@Electric Vehicle Owner 105

“Er, you know the power pack is lithium based, right?”

Er…
You know the battery cells are ALL LIFEPO4 and every cell has a MAX cycle count for DOD right? Just because you cascade 125 of them doesn’t mean that limitation is gone. and it doesn’t mean that GM isn’t counting them and don’t consider the cycles of that batt pack. Even your EV Motorcycle has this limitation. Look it up. .

“Life of the power pack in absolute life in years from birth of the cells and discharge/charge level and rate control is way, way more important than number of cycles with that large a pack for getting the longest vehicle life from the pack.”

Your discharge rate IS a directly proportional factor of cycle count. This is the C rating, so reguardless of the cycle, the depth of C discharge rate is a major factorial. Charge rate is very negligable as it will never get to 1C. Life of LifePO4 are not in years, they’re in Cycles. Here are a couple of cells you can read the specs on. You will notice “Years” is never posted as a specification…

http://www.all-battery.com/productimages/lifepo4/LiFePO4%20200AH%20battery.pdf
Or
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TS%2DLFP200AHA

You can conclude or deny your own falicy.

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

Oh, this should to be good.

I’m sitting here LOL in anticipation

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

I am using Firefox 3.0.10:

I have spelling check activated and in the past when a word was mis-spelled, I could right click it and the pop-up window would have alternate spellings with the option to add the word to the dictionary as spelled. Now when I right click, I do not get any alternate spelled words or the option to add to the dictionary. All I get is the “normal” windows right click options along with the option showing “check spelling” checked and one to “add dictionaries”. So, what happened?

It works in other text boxes on other sites the correct way. So, what gives?

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

Take cover.

(Quote)
Steven J Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

Really interesting article: China emerges as world’s auto epicenter – As Detroit crumbles, Beijing picks up the pieces

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30802161/

“When we look back 20 years from now, the year 2009 is likely to be viewed as the year in which the baton of leadership in the global auto industry passed from the United States to China”

No matter how we feel about this, it looks like its inevitable that the US will now be a minor player going forward.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

#117 Steven J

“….. the baton of leadership in the global auto industry passed from the United States to China”
___________________

I think most of us on this website have been trying to ignore this (hoping it isn’t true?). Thanks for spoiling that. ;/
How many other industries have we seen go this way already? It’s been the trend for decades.

(Quote)
Unni Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

One more question : Yesterday i was going through http://media.gm.com/volt/eflex/docs/paper.pdf

It looks on urban cycle , An EV takes approx .24 kwh/mile , On high way cycle it takes .26 to .28 kwh/mile and around .4 kwh/mile for us06 cycle.

Now the question is how Volt will get 40 miles ev range for highway and urban because the power requirement is different for both.

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

Unni @ 119

I think they will limit it through the controller.

I other words you’ll be set to get 40 miles AER in highway mode as well as city driving.

You’ll just use less of the battery for city driving.

I think that’s what was discussed previously.

(Quote)
Larry Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

The Volt already has a 110Kw AC inverter – it’s the motor controller!!
The main cost would be a (big) relay to divert energy from the motor to the AC output. This would be required if the Volt were ever to resell power to the utility.
It would certainly be possible for GM to make a “factory option” 120/240 AC inverter that would allow the Volt to output up to 110kW of AC power to run pretty much anything, as well as resell power to the utility during peak loads (using up battery life, but probably at a profit from the high peak power rates). GM could charge $2K for such an option for those who needed it.

(Quote)
Jim I Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

David K (CT) #92:

After about two weeks, and several requests, he finally said it was an electric motorcycle in post #79…..

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

Jim I @122…

Oh ya, I see now.

Thanks.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

Electric motorcycles… on this site we’ve discussed the Zero and the Vectrix… i dont know of any other ones.

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

k-dawg @ 124

“Electric motorcycles… on this site we’ve discussed the Zero and the Vectrix… i dont know of any other ones.”
====================================
They look like scooters to me.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

http://www.vectrixusa.com/

(Quote)
Unni Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

#120 David K, Yes we had a thread on it saying volt will get 40 miles on highway as well as urban cycle.

The problem here is maths : the input is a constant ( battery and usefull range is around 70% of the battery ) . The power requirement of urban is less than highway and regeneration on urban is high than highway. This makes me confused that how range on both can be same. Micro controller can only do what we program. So how GM gets it is the question.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

its not the right one, its tri-phase or higher and god knows what frequency, probably 10khz… there is a company that makes high power inverters for hybrids..
………………………
#121 Larry Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
The Volt already has a 110Kw AC inverter – it’s the motor controller!!

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

Unni @ 126

I just assumed that once the vehicle traveled 40 miles AER, then the controller would tell the vehicle to run the Genset.

I know that’s certainly an over simplistic observation, because of running A/C, heavy footed driver, etc.

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

CJS

I stand corrected.

Hey, I’m willing to let my ignorance show and don’t mind a smack down if it means that everyone hears and gets the real info as a result. Thanks for carrying some of the weight.

Actually, thank you very much for taking the time – I’m not proficient in the technology, have no e.e. degree and am just a joe schmoe user, so I love learning more about what I ride every day.

“Er…
You know the battery cells are ALL LIFEPO4 and every cell has a MAX cycle count for DOD right? Just because you cascade 125 of them doesn’t mean that limitation is gone. and it doesn’t mean that GM isn’t counting them and don’t consider the cycles of that batt pack. Even your EV Motorcycle has this limitation. Look it up.”

Your discharge rate IS a directly proportional factor of cycle count. This is the C rating, so reguardless of the cycle, the depth of C discharge rate is a major factorial. Charge rate is very negligable as it will never get to 1C. Life of LifePO4 are not in years, they’re in Cycles. Here are a couple of cells you can read the specs on. You will notice “Years” is never posted as a specification…”

So if you never use the power pack, it lasts forever? Methinks not. What about a constant low discharge so the battery management system is working 24/7? Gotta recharge every few months, regardless then.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

I guess I’m not understanding what the difference between the above description of li-ion and the LiFePO4 you mention is.

Heck, I don’t even know what kind of lithium based cells are in my machine, but I know it goes like snot, that I’ve recharged it around 700 times now and it still takes me as far as I’ve ever gone (farther than the manufacturer’s claimed max range when driven rationally, it turns out) without getting down to my red bars or, perish the thought, having the nanny squeal and shut down my power pack for me (I’ve only heard rumours about that). I don’t know if they stuffed it with weasels or what to get it to get such good range for so long, but the ding-dong thing works great in the real world for me and is going strong so that’s good enough for my wallet. Frankly, I’ve expected it to start fading more and sooner than it has. It turns out that it’s just another part of my electric vehicle that’s exceeded my expectations and the manufacturer’s claims.

I still stand by that, as best my math worked out, I’ve charged my pack no faster than 1.5 C at any time.

Every time someone on the site says something like oh, they can just go between 5 to 95% SOC regularly and get a lot out of the powerpack, I snicker with disbelief, but hey, maybe those LG Chem and A123 chemistries really are that good. Sweet.

Ya, CJS, I was just hoping you’d get so peeved that you’d spill all the beans so I’d get the real Volt specs. As it is, most of what I’ve learned on this site has been from you when you are correcting someone’s (er, mine) weird views and I sometimes say slightly less stupid things as a result (my years of life post maybe not the best example).

I think we can maybe both agree on “if you want longer life (cycles OR years) from the power pack don’t suck it dry EVER and don’t fill it all the way to the top?”. Mine’s sitting outside in hours of 103 degree high altitude direct sunshine at the moment. That’s ok, right? It doesn’t seem to do those 30 foot jumps I pound my machine through all the time any less aggressively for it, after those 700 recharges.

(Quote)
ClarksonCote Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

#43 KDawg,

I agree the power’s not there in current vehicles. I guess the unknown to me is the Volt’s method of keeping that 12V battery charged. If the battery’s acting more as a buffer, there’s a chance it might prove to work.

I’m pretty sure you can get fairly beefy inverters for cars right now. The drawback of course is needing the ICE to run to keep that power flowing.

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

Jim I @ 122

I’ve always immediately responded to direct requests, even when completely off the topic. I’ve never shied away from stating my electric vehicle, but I do feel that I should not be promoting it here to the possible detriment of the yet to be produced for retail consumers Volt.

Oh, what’s the current actual air pressure in each of your tires and where/when were they manufactured (I don’t care by who) and how many mm brake wear do you have on each of your brakes?

@ DavidK 125

This is karma for blowing my lithium cell life quiz, isn’t it?

The Vectrix is a Maxi-Scooter (gasser example – the Honda Silver Wing 582cc, a well known (in the motorcycle world) touring maxi-scooter).

The Zero X is a motocross motorcycle, an offroad dirt motorcycle (gasser example – A Yamama YZ aluminum frame 125cc or 250cc (well known in the professional motocross motorcycle racing circuits) that can be kitted for legal full on road use (many aftermarket DOT kit manufacturers, this is very frequently done).

The Zero S is a supermoto or motard motorcycle (gasser example – a Yamaha WR250X, again, well known in the motorycle world as a competent street/dirt all around town/country motorcycle (except the electric’s 75 pounds lighter), a street legal, highway capable dual sport off/on road motorcycle. The Zero S has about the same torque as a Suzuki 750cc GSX-R (pronounced Jink-zer, a street racer motocycle which most 17 year olds who know anything at all about motorcycles instantly know about and lust after) but the Zero S weighs a couple of hundred pounds less.

All the above electric vehicles do highway speeds and have high performance off the line torque and decent around town or commuting range for plenty of folks.

I feel much better now, knowing that you know less about motorcycles than I do about lithium cell characteristics.

My other ride is a very common, well regarded dual sport pure gasser motorcycle purchased at the same time as my electric, so I’ve been able to do running head to head up front price, performance, use, fuel and maintenance and repair cost comparisons. So far, the electric wins all the way around.

After you’ve finished and completed over 400 miles in a 24 hour off road endurance motocross race, let me know and I’ll listen to what you have to say about “scooters”.

My electric motorcycle is street legal, highway capable, registered and license plated as such.

Scooters in most states in most states are speed limited to 30 mph and have relaxed rules. While the Vectrix Maxi and the Zero motocycles above could emulate such performance with a simple algorithym and flip of a stitch (try that with a gasser), none of them need to except by user preference.

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

Look EVO…

I’m not interested in your electric scooter, your offroad endurance motoross, tree trimming, or pumping electricity back into the grid…

I just want my Volt!

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

kdawg

Two Quantya (Swiss) electrics just beat a Zero X in a 10 motorcycle motocross race in Vegas. In fairness, the two top winners were top professional riders while the Zero Rider was only a genius amateur who still got a podium finish, despite being thrown up against total pros. That shows that how you ride is way more important than what you ride. Electric drive, check. Brand name, whatever. Throw a real pro rider on it and win. win, win.

The Quantya electric motocross is made more for broad professional race track conditions (read massively wide fire break roads with massive jumps), where the Zero X excels in tight, tight technical (I mean pee your pants, dead fallen mountain goat at the bottom) off road conditions (think increasingly restricted hard core hunting locations and dwindling recreation parks (due to sparks/fire hazard and noise from gasser OHVs).

Ya know, I hate being asked to be a sales person by the posters. Why don’t you get off your lazy butts, actually do some research on what’s out there (more and more all the time and way more than what posters report to date), buy one and use it for daily fun?

Sheesh, I need another smackdown by CJS.

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

Off-topic amusement for Volt fans; Jeremy Clarkson (of “Top Gear” fame) reviews the Honda Insight:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article6294116.ece

For best results, try to ‘hear’ his outraged, Monty-British accent as you read.

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

DavidK

“I’m not interested in your offroad endurance motoross… pumping electricity back into the grid…
I just want my Volt.”

Um, ok, but this article is about pumping electricity back into the grid, so why are you posting on it? Just wait for your Volt to drop into your lap like magic….

___

This is what I get for answering a direct question immediately when asked, when it’s clear that I would get slammed just as hard if I said “It’s not important what kind of electric vehicle I have. No one cares” (Oh, I have said that before on this site).

Notice that I never post on the threads where I see nothing wildly false bandied about or have no actual information (no matter how ill formed) to add?

Hmm, my pretense of offended injury plays false. Oh, well.

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

EVO…

Um, no the article is about powering the house during blackouts, using it during camping trips.

Please re-read the article before posting again.

Thanks.

(Quote)
Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

@ #134 Jackson,

Wow, thanks for the link. I don’t think he likes it! </no_kidding_hey>

(Quote)
Jim I Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

EVO:

Why does it takes you chapters to answer a question, when you never really do? So you drive an electric motorcycle and say you have a windmill. If you feel that is the right thing for you, good for you. But many of us here think that a car should suit our needs, not the other way around. And you need to tone down the high and mighty attitude you put into your posts, because calling people idiots, lumps, and morons does nothing to improve your standing on this site….

As to your direct questions, when you want to stop acting like a child and ask me a question that has any relevance, I will be glad to answer it.

Finally, your comment that “I should not be promoting it here to the possible detriment of the yet to be produced for retail consumers Volt.” is truly quite laughable. If you think I would run out today and buy an electric motorcycle or some NEV, because you mentioned a brand name, then you really do have too high of an opinion of yourself…..

(Quote)
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

Sigh.

@ David K(CT) 135

“attaching an inverter to the Volt” = V2G capability, whatever the grid in question is.

For the record, JME III, Jim I, RB and Tagamet and Herm (5 other posters) all discussed V2G before I ever tried to clear up some of the FUD about it, so go snark at them first for some credibility points. I’ve already blown all mine today on lithium cell life.

Thanks for playing…

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

@ Jim I

I have never called any poster on this site any of the names you claim. Please stop your slandering. At least I answered your questions promptly, despite your claim to the contrary.

If folks here don’t like my answers, please don’t demand them from me.

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StevePA Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

“No access to high voltage…”

Well, at least the wise guys won’t be using it as an enhanced interrogation technique, or to toast other wise guys…

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

Jim I

I never said I have a windmill. I said my electric vehicle uses wind power, thanks to a subscription plan from my regional power utility, at prices lower than coal in many states. I mention it now by rote as a reflexion to years of many people ranting about dirty coal and trying the long tailpipe fallacy.

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Dan Petit Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

Electric Vehicle Owner always sounds like he has some old, tired, electrically-worn-out collection of EV experiments he wants to sell someone on this site.
**********************************************************
NO ONE HERE WANTS AN OLD USED-UP EV
**********************************************************
due to the total cost of ownership per mile, repairs, lack of long term warranties, and on and on and on.
If your source of EV’s is sufficiently well-designed, well, who is it that built your EV so we can all share in that knowledge and hold these highly talented people in the very highest of esteem?
How much did you pay for your lithium ion battery EV?
We want Voltec vehicles when they come out. That is the purpose of this site the last time I checked.
Your “marketing” for some EV builder or someone who has one to sell is getting a little bit too arrogant.
We want Voltec vehicles only. Nothing else will do. Your builder can not possibly compete with the 400 terrific engineers at GM, and, to make matters even more crystal clear, I’d bet that you want “out” of your own EV from how desperate you sound, or are helping someone to “get rid of” some EV long before the BEV era comes to an abrupt end. That is in 17 very VERY SHORT months from now.
This is how desperate your context sounds to me.
Please help people who read content here with technical information
that is not given from some sort of electric “ivory tower”, condescending attitude. (Is not a pseudonym an enabling thing for the practice of arrogance?)
GM is the VERY best from my perspectives as an ASE-Examined L-1 Advanced Systems Educator with 108 independent shops and 389 dedicated advanced technicians who rely upon my advice about our exciting environmental evolution to green electric motoring. And, nothing will ever change the terrific and positive environmental course we are about to begin in helping the planet become more sustainable. If any materials come out of the ground, they must be utilized in the most carbon-reducing manner. EREV is exactly this answer at this point in time for the very safety of the Voltec customer.
Dan Petit Austin TX
Dan Petit Austin TX

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:04 pm

I know that there are many bad things happening in the automobile industry right now, but taking it out on me for being extremely happy with my high performance electric motorcycle won’t fix those things.

I wish GM nothing but success with its Volt, regardless of what options they decide to offer with the gen 1 electric drive Volt. I am thrilled that GM has stated a priority in delivering that vehicle promptly. I look forward to owning one.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

Dan Petit,

I have ZERO interest in promoting my vehicle, as I keep stating. This is a site about the Volt, about which I am interested because it uses electric drive and I am an owner of an electric vehicle that uses electric drive. I ONLY bring up my vehicle brand when posters here have DEMANDED to know what my vehicle is and tell lies about me holding back on that information. It is no experiment. It is a commercial product, not a used up old thing at all and anyone can get a brand new one any day. I will no longer respond to any requests for brand information about it, which I’m quite sure will make many posters here delirious with joy to hear.

I do bring up my electric vehicle in general in the context of the many technical discussions here, because both my electric vehicle and the Volt use electric drive, so some of my real world experience is both relevent and useful to the discussion.

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melee Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

WRT to the 12V “accessory” battery: an electric-drive vehicle obviously has to have low-voltage supply for the electronics and various other electrical components (window motors, etc) and a high-voltage supply for the main drive. And pretty much every system that does this keeps the two systems apart for some very good reasons.

For one, you want to be able to shut off the high-voltage much like you would a motor in a gasoline car, and so you have to have an external battery to operate accessories when off and the control electronics themselves. This can be charged with/complemented by a DC-DC convertor (as I’m sure the Volt does) or, as many home-brew EVs do, be charged separately from the wall, without any contact with the main power system. Then there’s circuit isolation (I’m sure the drive motors don’t tend to keep the power nice and clean) and the difficulty with the changing voltage of the high-voltage system as power levels change. And the Volt has the added issue of starting the ICE.

Pretty much every EV in the world does this; it just makes sense.

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Steven J Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

#143 Dan Petit

That attack on EVO only made yourself look bad. I find his posts interesting and thought provoking.

If GM is truly “the VERY best” and “no one can compete” why are they bankrupt and losing market share for the last 30 years? Cheerleading for your company is one thing, but you don’t have to come down on others to do it.

You also don’t speak for everyone when you say we want Voltec vehicles, nothing else will do. Almost anything will do in fact. Many of us want a BEV and will buy one from anyone who produce a reasonably priced one first. Personally a Volt is probably my last choice, and by the time they come out, almost every other manufacturer will have one.

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JB Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

Diamler and Tesla to join forces. Hmmm…but just for the battery? Announcement tomorrow.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

Dan Petit

Yell at CaptJackSparrow, Jim I, and many others who seem to think that this is life or death information for the board to have. I don’t think it’s important what electric vehicle I have, and I’m truly sorry that it seems to be a topic of raging controversy, rather than having the board focus on the Volt, which I like and intend to purchase, if GM can ever get it out to retail consumers.

“Mike-o-Matic Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:55 am
@45 Electric Vehicle Owner,

EVO, what kind of EV do you own/drive?”

Jim I Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
David K (CT) #92:

After about two weeks, and several requests, he finally said it was an electric motorcycle in post #79…..”

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:44 pm

BTW, GM getting props from me, a multiyear electric vehicle user, is a major coupe for them. I’m giving them some benefit of some very well justified doubt, so where’s my Volt (after DavidK (CT)’s , of course)?

DanPetit

You will get my current EV, my preccciiioouuussss, when you pry it from my dead, cold fingers, whatever I also buy in the future, the Volt included. I waited 35 looonnnnggg years since I first wanted it for someone to produce the obvious in an inexpensive, high performance model using a high density modern powerpack, and by gosh, they did.

My EV is my friend. My EV is not the only EV but this one is MINE, and it is high performance, etc. etc. Really, for a mass produced line object, I am seriously addicted to my electric motorcycle, you’re right, thanks to the high performance electric drive, even when it’s in a crowd of the same make/model. Yay, though I ride through the valley of the shadow of oil, I shall fear no pure gassers…. (Nope, too biblical, wouldn’t want to really offend anyone).

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David K (CT) Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 5:52 pm

EVO:

The only reason that ANYONE asked you about your electric vehicle was because you regularly and annoyingly “tout” how you are way ahead of all us…you drive an all electric vehicle.

A motorcycle…BIG DEAL!

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Dan Petit Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 6:32 pm

I think any major brand OEM backed EREV, etc, will all have sell-outs for their first 8 production years. Readers need information that is not encumbered and deeply buried within lots of glowing generalizations for “whatever the EV vehicle it is, we do not know”.
Their purposes are the most widely differentiated.
If you have anything that is of EV value, it is not fair to keep on talking on and on without first telling posters what you are talking about.
Say, “My EV motorcyle”, and, I personally am all ears!!!
(I have talked to some local very-talented EV builders here in Austin in the past about an electric motorcycle).
Had you prefaced your posts that way, I would have agreed that a three-wheeled EV version that is more stable than a two wheeled would actually be more energy efficient than anything else, and, reach a broader market!
In that context, I am greatly interested in whatever you can let us know about your experiences with that.
But posts that clearly “talk down” to others whom are simply trying their best to learn more is not correct. I try to post data in a goal to affirm the highest of industry standards from the very incorporated. This emerging technology and market is a
**************************
consumers’ “mine field’
**************************
and, it is always my hope to help readers here to be as well informed as possible with all the excessive protections the corporate-laws overly provide for the incorporated, while at the same time corporations for new technologies leave the most trusting of customers in the financial ditch sometimes.
Your information which is preambled with what make, model, year, cost, and your particular usage patterns are what makes for the credibility of your valuable input.
Please do not be angry with me for wanting the very best for readers here, and, my insistence that readers be treated with technical respect as highly interested and environmentally attentive.
Dan Petit Austin TX.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:08 pm

#47 Electric Vehicle Owner Says:

The power went out because irresponsible property owners with deficient land stewardship ethics and lazy utilities did not trim overhanging branches on a periodic basis, as any prudent person would.

—–
I understand your point and agree. Unfortunately this particular ice storm took down the lines on the towers. It was reported that ice built up on the lines and down they came. I was initially surprised by this because I always thought those lines were hot.

I still believe buried service is a better choice to avoid these problems though.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:15 pm

Totally off subject, but. . .

How come they only sell the really good stuff in europe?

Ford Focus RS driven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B9H_C_IqME&NR=1

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jeffhre Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:25 pm

#117
Steven J Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

Really interesting article: China emerges as world’s auto epicenter – As Detroit crumbles, Beijing picks up the pieces

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30802161/

“When we look back 20 years from now, the year 2009 is likely to be viewed as the year in which the baton of leadership in the global auto industry passed from the United States to China”

No matter how we feel about this, it looks like its inevitable that the US will now be a minor player going forward.
________________________
That’s exactly what was said about the US relative to Japan’s economy 20 years ago. Was it someone on this site that quoted Mark Twain as saying history doesn’t repeat itself but it does rhyme!

If you read the entire article there are still a few gaps left yet in China’s industry to complete an epicenter, although it will certainly be a massive and amazing to behold marketplace all on it’s own, once the economic downturns effects recede.

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Ed M Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:43 pm

Steven J #117

There are more than a few gaps in China’s Industrial world such as very little to no R&D. Just about everything that they make has been copied from some other country.

if Detroit collapses because of the unions and bondholders they will spring up elsewhere in the US because the world needs R&D more than ever. No matter where you look the biggest innovators in the 20th century were always the US and Europe. China will always be behind the curve because of political situation and their culture.

The only thing that can deliver a death blow to American industry is its quest for ever cheaper products from Asia. I would defy anyone to name one product that China invented other than chopsticks and noodles.

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BillR Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:47 pm

Somewhat off topic, but the future of Voltec looks promising with this new legislation on the horizon.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090518/AUTO01/905180403/White-House-to-require-35.5-mpg-by-2016

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jeffhre Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:48 pm

Rashiid Amul #93

You don’t have very high aspirations! I want mine to mow my lawn, compact my trash, mulch trees and yard trimmings, grind meat, and process chop, and dice foods.

In fact I want my Volt to winch up my entire house and dump out the contents into the front yard for a yard sale because it will eventually replace everything I own!

I will then use the vehicles cutting attachments to remove all the built in lights from my house to be replaced by fiber optic couplings to the cars LED lamps.

Of course if I can also get a connection to the cars generator a la CaptJack that would be cool too!

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jeffhre Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

#156
Ed M

Steven J #117

. China will always be behind the curve because of political situation and their culture.
__________________________
Gunpowder?

Be careful of your “always” statement just as Steven J should be careful of his “inevitable” conclusion.

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:08 pm

In one of the Advanced Auto Systems seminars I taught recently, the subject of what a typical V-8 starter motor would need in order to start a vehicle (jump start) came up.
I asked all the techs to let me know how many watt hours it takes to start a vehicle (jump start also). The answers were all to high.
The amount of power, (although the starter motor may be about a 150 amp draw at 12 volts) is astonishingly low.
A diesel is about twice the watt hours as is a gasoline V-8.
The answers are:
******************
one watt hour
******************
for the gasoline V-8,
and,
********************
two watt hours
********************
for the diesel V-8. (But never give a jump to a diesel battery “pair”).
150 amps times 12 volts is 1,800 watts.

Divided by 60 minutes of an hour is 30 watt-minutes.
Divided by 30 two-second cranking-load-increments is one watt hour to give a jump start to a very low 12 volt battery in a gasoline engine.

Keeping all other aftermarket 12 volt options electrically isolated from sensitive software processing is another good thing to know about.
One other thing I did to isolate the very sensitive processor network in my 05 vehicle (as I needed a separate 12 volt source to power a pure-sine 150 inverter to run an “all in one” printer as well as a very very electrically-noisy thermal cooler for my lunch), was to put a 36 watt regulated solar panel on the roof rack, and sent the power down to a separate 12volt AGM battery (a sealed absorbed-glass-matt gel battery).
That way, there was not any chance whatsoever that the warranty (of my ‘O5 vehicle) could possibly get compromised regarding the volatile software it has, just like many other vehicles of that year and later on the road today.
If you want to install anything on any car nowadays, it’s a good idea to stop by and see your service manager in person and ask if your option that you want to install (in a certain way, and to be powered and grounded at what locations) is an OK thing to do.
The service manager will be glad to let you know these things, and, will likely remember your conversation in a strongly-positive-light
(since hardly anyone does this) when there is a problem related or unrelated on your vehicle. It is very highly likely that your respect for the manager’s permission and advice for directives to do anything will carry the day if something does go wrong.
Dan Petit Austin TX.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:29 pm

I’m done thinking about cars for a while.

Think I’ll focus on. . . . . mmmmmmotorcyles.

Octane TV – Moto X Madness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DPDo3bx9_Q&NR=1

Oh yeah, . . . off topic. . . . . just seemed like a video worth sharing.

(Quote)
Kurt Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 8:50 pm

#8 – Exp_EngTech:

“I have 2 “burning” questions regarding the 12v Cigarette Lighter Sockets…1. How many? 2. Where?”

1. Here’s a novel idea: quit smoking. Read some literature on its affects on your health, on global climate, and interestingly, the chemistry of the ocean. Critical stuff, much more so than you getting your tobacco fix.
2. bad pun

(Quote)
JEC Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:18 pm

Wow, this topic really set off some fireworks and “interesting” side conversations between many of the regulars.

Anyway, regarding having a separate 12V battery, I am of the opinion that you should just tap into the existing 300+ Vdc battery that you paid for. I do not understand why you would not just tap into the existing cells, since the battery consists of many batteries in a serial/parallel fashion. No need for any DC-DC converters or totally separate battery.

I must be missing something here? I think I understand the battery and how it would be applied, but again, am I missing something?

And a DC-to-DC swicher would have at least a couple major drawbacks. First this needs to be able to start your ICE, which means you need cranking amps, not just static amps for running electronics. This would mean your DC-to-DC SMPS (switch mode power supply) would need to be fairly large and expensive. Other issues with SMPS of this size are noise related issues that are inherent in a SMPS design. Filtering all that common-mode noise is difficult and can wreak havoc on sensitive electronics. (BTW: I am still curious if GM is having EMI issues with running the inverter for the motor. Believe me this is not a simple task, and if you want a project slip, I look at this issue as a possible schedule killer!).

I say just tap into that bad boy battery, downstream, to generate 12V directly and be done with it. If the big battery dies, and I cannot start the ICE, so be it. I am going to be so pissed that my expensive battery is dead, that you do not need to worry about my reaction to not being able to start the ICE (ps: this battery should be extremely reliable, and I think the chances are slim of complete failure).

(Quote)
Newman Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 9:36 pm

Question/
Is the 12V “Accessory Battery” topped up when the Volt is plugged in?
If not you run the risk of it going flat if the Volt is not used for a couple of weeks.

The Prius’ 12V battery can/does go flat if left unused for 2 weeks (or less as the battery gets older) and then you can’t start the car and your clock has lost its time and your trip meters are lost also, plus your 12V battery has been damaged by being discharged so low and has to be replaced etc., great if you’re away on business/holidays etc.

The 12V Battery is being drained little by little all the time by things like the clock, flashing leds, monitoring systems etc.
If you have anything else installed like e.g. an alarm system, it uses a little extra power too.

The 12V battery needs to be maintained by the system much better than the Prius does which is, not at all, if the car is not in use.

Together with the fact that it has a very expensive “cough… rip off …cough”, very short life 12V lead acid special sized battery (Toyota Part No. ##gouge the customer##) that is very small and underpowered and gets maintained by a voltage regulated (14V) DC – DC converter ONLY when the Prius is being used.

Never again for me thanks.

(Quote)
Newman Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:04 pm

# 163 JEC,
They wouldn’t really want to “tap into” the main Lithium Battery Pack as that would cause it to become unbalanced (some cells having lower charge than others).

Regarding EMI (electro-magnetic induction) noise, there are strict regulations regarding RFI (radio frequency interference).
Thus any problems regarding superfluous EMR (electro-magnetic radiation) would be well understood by the GM engineers, after all, inverters and switch mode power supplies have been around for a long time, even high power devices as would be used in the Volt or any other EV.
Your point is taken though regarding early power switching electronics, they were very “noisy” (EMR) and were difficult to suppress and keep efficient at the same time.

(Quote)
koz Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:13 pm

Thank you Rob Peterson for an answer, but no thank you for the crapola. My friggin Vibe has a 120V outlet. Providing 120V at the very least, if not 120 and 240, is a no brainer. Even if they are pairing base model costs, offer it as an option. Development for it would be minimal. I bet the concern is more about liability than development time or cost.

Not coming close to comfortable under $30k is OK with me since I never believed they could come close. Shrinking the gas tank to @7 gallons is OK if gas range is still >300 miles. Compromising form for function is OK to the degree it has been done, IMO. 4 seats OK eventhough I think the could have found a less obtrusive place for the battery module in the rear leg area. Low power wipers and stereo OK eventhough I won’t benefit. 10 year battery warranty limiting discharge to 50% OK eventhough it just costs me extra money for potential long term battery capacity I’ll never be able to use. Obvious Cruze compenentry OK to save cost. Reduced max traction motor capacity from 120KW to 111KW OK if cost saved. NO HV OUTPUT NOT OK!!!

(Quote)
koz Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:18 pm

Kurt #162

I pretty sure he wasn’t thinking of lighting cigarettes with the watts. He’ll probably want to know their Amp rating too.

(Quote)
Jim I Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:35 pm

EVO #140 Says: “I have never called any poster on this site any of the names you claim. Please stop your slandering”

===============

Here are direct quotes from your posts:

“If you just want to sit like a lump and go straight fast without thinking or doing much…”

“mostly because they are lazy, don’t care yet and are waiting for things…”

“that enough morons consistently want extra on the Volt…”

So where is the slander? I think from now on I will just skip your postings. As a parting thought, since you felt free to give me life advice a few days ago, I will return the favor. I think you should run for public office. Your doublespeak, vauge ramblings, and selective memory would fit in perfectly in Washington DC. I wish you well.

(Quote)
Newman Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:41 pm

In addition to my above post. # 165

The Volt has been reported as whisper quiet, which indicates the power electronics has been well refined, when you hear a whiney motor is when you’d expect noise “EMR” from the power control electronics, particularly when accelerating or decelerating with regen. breaking, as that’s when high currents are involved.

(Quote)
MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 19th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

Wow a hot button subject!

Although I can see the point in desiring the abiltiy to pull power from the main battery pack I really think it’s prudent as Rob Peterson says, to not include this in gen 1.

Keep it up guys, build us a car we can be proud of!

(Quote)
Pete K Says:
May 20th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

The photo used for this thread brings to mind a greater concern – I can see no visible means to prevent trouble makers from unplugging the volt: It looks like the charge-port’s cover slides to one side and stays there. So what prevents anybody who wants to from interfering with your overnight recharge?

My Citroen Berlingo Electrique has a closure flap that closes OVER the connector at the car end. This flap can only be released from the INSIDE by the owner, which makes re-charging tamper proof.

Lack of tamper-proofing would stop me buying the Volt when it comes to London – mischievous kids do roam urban streets and my EV recharges out in the road. I can envisage a new nocturnal sport of EV unplugging catching on.

Lyle – Have I missed something, or have GM addressed this via another means (eg strong electromagnetic connection while charging, or some other locking pin/ring at the ‘mating’ interface?

Cheers.

(Quote)
Pete K Says:
May 20th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

PS

I had to jump-start my brother in law’s combustion car from my EV this weekend (my first ever EV to ICE jumpstart): Like the Volt (and in common with all ICE cars) the Citroen Berlingo Electrique still has a normal 12v battery which runs all electrical loads (except locomotion!) – only difference is that it is kept charged by the traction battery pack (vs the fanbelt plus alternator arrangement of used by ICE clunkers).

Cheers.

(Quote)
Kevin Says:
May 21st, 2009 at 5:53 pm

If the engine acts as a generator for the on-car batteries, why not give folks the option of using the generator to power appliances?

Might be a handy feature/option in case of power outages, etc.

(Quote)

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There Will be No Customer Access to High Voltage on the Chevy Volt, but it Can Jump Start Another Car

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