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Why GM Still Needs More Time to Bring the Volt to Market

May 14th, 2009 | Posted in: Engineering, Production, Timeline

People often ask why will it take so much longer for GM to bring the Volt to market. Considering how much has been done already and the publicity from smaller carmakers, the casual observer often imagines the car should be ready sooner than November 2010.

I asked Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah why it will be another year and a half to bring the Volt to market.

“Most of it truly is the aesthetic side of it,” he said. “The mule cars aren’t pretty. We know that people want a vehicle that is distinctive.”

He admitted GM has “been working the basic powertrain and battery stuff for more than a year or two,” but added that the aesthetic features “only comes together in the final stages before you go.”

Producing a car “is a lot like fashion,” he said. “If you start too soon you’re selling something that’s already old.”

He concluded therefore “the things that are holding it up are really the typical new vehicle kinds of things,” and not in fact the high tech cutting edge battery and powertrain engineering which have so far proven very robust and successful.

In exactly thirteen days, GM will begin building the full true Volt interior and exterior integration vehicles. No major changes will likely occur between those and the final production vehicles, though Farah does note “we’ll do what we have to do to fix problems if any crop up.”

So far with the 30 or so mules he’s been working with for the past several months there were no problems that weren’t anticipated. “Nothing has come up that we haven’t had an answer for,” he said.

Posted by: Lyle

179 Responses to “Why GM Still Needs More Time to Bring the Volt to Market”

Rashiid Amul Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:02 am

Near perfection takes time.
I am glad they are happy with the technology.

Making it look good and making it a vehicle that people want to buy is as important or even more important that the technology.

They could have the best technology, and it the Volt is ugly or cheap looking, no one will buy it anyway.

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Natan Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:06 am

GM needs more time for ICE testing and to set the production that is why I think we have to wait another year and half

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RB Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:25 am

So far with the 30 or so mules he’s been working with for the past several months there were no problems that weren’t anticipated. “Nothing has come up that we haven’t had an answer for,” he said.
————————————————-
I am glad to hear that.
As Mr Farah has had an answer (does this mean solution?) for all problems one does wonder once again why Lyle could not drive the mule right on through the ICE transition.

So now, as they begin the first integration vehicles, everything is finished except for styling details?

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Dave K. Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:28 am

Remove the red reflector strip from the rear bumper. Mold the iPod control panel into the dash area. Drop the stock 17″ wheels and use the optional 18″. Offer a saddle interior with baseball stitching. Offer an optional 180 HP electric motor. NO, I repeat NO, male plug-in decals on the exterior of the car.

It’s time to listen to your customers.

=D~

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FME III Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:44 am

Well, this is new! Never before heard the “we’ve got to get the styling right,” explanation for the timeline. Where did they pull that one from, and why? At least they’re not citing it as a reason for moving back their production schedule.

That said, I’m not close enough to the car biz to know if any of Farah’s explanation holds water.

But here’s something that does excite me, per our discussion yesterday about PBP and the whether future battery improvements will make battery swapping a non-issue:

A company in Europe is claiming to have successfully developed a two-speed transmission for electric motors that allows the motor to stay in its most efficient speed, thereby extending battery life. Remember how Tesla sunk a bunch of cash into this issue only to fail miserably?

If you’re interested, the story is posted on Green Gar Congress; http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/vocis-20090512.html#more

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Jim I Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:55 am

Dave K #4 Says:

Remove the red reflector strip from the rear bumper. Mold the iPod control panel into the dash area. Drop the stock 17″ wheels and use the optional 18″. Offer a saddle interior with baseball stitching. Offer an optional 180 HP electric motor. NO, I repeat NO, male plug-in decals on the exterior of the car.

It’s time to listen to your customers.

==============

There are problems with statements like you have made. I am sure that there are as many people that like the red reflective stripe, hate baseball stiching, etc, as you think would demand it.

No matter what decisions are made, there will be some people that hate them…..

That is why there are so many different car models to choose from!

I think the real reason we will not see a Volt before Nov, 2010 has everything to do with financial problems, and very little to do with styling issues. No money is why the work on the assembly plant has not kicked into high gear. And until the June 1st “deadline” has passed, and we see where GM will be in the future months, there will be no huge spending going on.

JMHO

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:08 am

He concluded therefore “the things that are holding it up are really the typical new vehicle kinds of things…”
———
Funding.

We have heard that the Volt is a 1-2 billion dollar project…meaning it should be burning/spending/doling out contracts anywhere from 200-500 million a quarter by this point…and we know any expense over 10 million has to go to the PTFoA (Pres. Task Force on Autos)

Here is the question: How many major Volt related expenses have we seen go there in the six months since December when the government got involved and oks all the projects/expenditures?

I haven’t seen/heard of any.

Who on the Volt team has the stones to ask Fritz for cash? Maybe they have already been directed to not expect anything. Who at GM then has the stones to go to the PTFoA and ask for a half billion to get the program moving again?

Further to that, GM goes bankrupt in 17 days…how likely is funding inside that program, when they really have oversight? The PTFoA says they don’t want to ‘get involved’ in the car business…but I can’t help but noticed they slashed Chrysler’s ad budget in half during the bankruptcy. (Chrysler asked for 135 million for 9 weeks…they got 67)

/565 and dropping fast

Side note: One of GM’s ‘buyers’ for Saab walked today (or at least issued a statement)…Geely said ‘Bu Xiea’ (no thanks) to GM.

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Tibor Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:08 am

Can’t people really understand building 10 000 cars is entirely different from building 10?

Just getting the tools, figuring out how to assemble the cars most effectively (without breaking the back of any worker), setting up the assembly line, programming the automated robots, educating the workers, etc takes at least a year.

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k-dawg Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:12 am

Yay! The clock is back (sort of).

I’ll bet they are also tweaking the software up till the production date. Its easy to point fingers (I wonder what Bob Boniface would say is the “hold up”), but the reality is they ALL will be working on things.

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Dave K. Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:16 am

Jim I #6 says:

There are problems with statements like you have made.

+++++++++++++

American’s enjoy freedom of speech. If no one steps up to voice ideas then we may as well live in a Taliban state. It’s unknown if GM will be around to produce a Volt-like car. The eventual manufacturers of a “Volt” vehicle are monitoring this site.

=D~

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john1701a Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:21 am

Rollout itself will consume lots of $$$ too.

An entirely new type of vehicle comes with lots of training & tooling expenses at the dealer level.

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Shock Me Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:23 am

Personally I would like them to re-explore the original exterior styling from the concept vehicle. That was awesome.

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Tim Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:26 am

Did anyone forget that the timeline for launching the Volt was decided upon well before there was any Government assistance/control/whatever? Obviously they had planned for engineering, design, and manufacturing work during the next 18 months long ago. I don’t even see why we are having this conversation.

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Herm Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:44 am

I dont think the car will be ready by nov 2010, it all depends on what the Task Force decides.. they control the schedule and they may take months to decide.

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kgurnsey Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:55 am

I think that Mr. Farah’s statements might still be a bit misleading. Once the integration vehicles are built, tested, and it is confirmed that everything works properly together as a unit, the manufacturing process to mass produce the Volt still has to be designed, built, and tested.

I would guess that the Volt itself is essentially complete, minor tweaking notwithstanding, and within a couple months the car will be finalized. That, however, is not the end of the story. As Tibor alluded to though, there is a difference between building 10, or 100 per year, and building thousands. The entire manufacturing process has to be designed, much like the car itself, and that probably can’t be fully done until the car that process is intended to manufacture, is complete. The production line for the Volt has to be able to produce that car in the tens of thousands, which is something Tesla could only dream about at this point. It’s relatively simple to build a prototype, or a small volume niche car. Producing high volume with low defect rates is difficult, and requires much the same process as designing the car in the first place. Let’s not forget that the production line is being designed to be able to ramp up to 60,000 units per year, and must be designed as such from the start.

I expect the next year will be mostly getting the manufacturing process online and running to a consistent level of quality at high volume.

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Adrian Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:04 am

The car will go on sale after the 2011 auto show circuit if I guess correct. You want hype and excitement for something so new. Waiting ~9 months after Detriot ‘10 makes little sense. Wait 3-4 more months and mid-year release it.

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BillR Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:07 am

Given the advanced level of completion on the powertrain, GM could start building the Volt in 6 months if they so desired. The result, however, would be that the vehicles would be hand built (like the integration vehicles) and would cost a great deal more (think hand-built pricing, like Ferrari).

Over the next 18 months, GM can find more competitive sources for parts, tool up for the assembly line, and work out any problems/complaints they discover over the next 12 to 18 months of driving the IV’s (Integration Vehicles).

As they test the Volt on the proving grounds, and as the employees begin to take the IV’s on public streets, they will learn a great deal about the Volt, and hopefully incorporate some minor changes to make it as perfect as possible for launch.

I have no doubt that the Volt, as well as other advanced hybrid technologies, are still being well funded at GM. Other basic car programs, however, are likely to get little or no funding at this time.

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RB Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:12 am

#8 Tibor said
Can’t people really understand building 10 000 cars is entirely different from building 10?
Just getting the tools, figuring out how to assemble the cars most effectively (without breaking the back of any worker), setting up the assembly line, programming the automated robots, educating the workers, etc takes at least a year.
———————————————————–

I agree, but –>
Do you see this manufacturing preparation going on?
I realize much is internal, but I haven’t see any reported.

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Van Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:15 am

I think a lot depends on our mindset. I view the Volt as a weapon of war, and think it should have been brought to market with the speed used to bring new weapons to bear during WWII. I am a Vet, and it galls me to sit here in America as if we were at peace, while folks are in harm’s way, partially funded by every tank of gas we buy. I think GM has been slow playing Volt development, not willing to risk survival like our soldiers do every day.

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Guido Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:19 am

Tibor Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Can’t people really understand building 10 000 cars is entirely different from building 10?

Just getting the tools, figuring out how to assemble the cars most effectively (without breaking the back of any worker), setting up the assembly line, programming the automated robots, educating the workers, etc takes at least a year.
———–
BINGO ! The whole key to cost effectiveness is leveraging economies of scale. It’s not so difficult to design and build one car …developing tools and processes to build one per minute is a much more difficult, time-consuming, and expensive task. ( For instance, stamping dies to hammer out individual body panels will cost millions of dollars each, and take 18 months to order steel and machine to exact specifications …. and this process cannot even begin until the exterior design is “frozen” ). Most parts are prototyped ( small numbers of parts built by quicker, more expensive processes ) in order to provide an early proveout of functionality and quality. In other cases, designs are substitutued ( e.g., mules ) if they can
approximate the chasis design in order to save money, yet still provide a meaningful platform ( no pun intended ) to evaluate the powertrain ( for example ).

This is why some people see prototype cars on the road a year or more before vehicle launch …. they are not “production intent” parts or processes, but reasonable facsimiles built ( at high cost ) in order to provide a quick readout on functionality and quality. This is not particular to the Volt … it is a logical, sensible way to minimize risk yet maximize confidence level in the vehicle and processes that will build it.

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L wesson Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:24 am

I recall the stunning Volt prototype both in and out. THEY have wasted precious time and resources tearing down the creative prototype and creating the much more mundane mayonnaise version. If General Motors had executives more akin to Steven Jobs of Apple Computer then the creative genus would be to build something that is useful and new and make that product so compelling that the public would say it is a must have. Instead, there are expensive departments at GM that retreat to their dismal drab bunker of thinking and transmogrify the prototype into what they think the public will buy.

That is not to say that anything that is whissed out of some design studio should be built. The 1950’s displayed some bizarre notions of design.

One further and important note:

Carcus1 has nailed the oil industry on it’s greasy head. I am a byproduct of the carbon energy industry as Dad was most involved. They are nervous and want to control, ie, make money, from you, you personal transportation users! Here in Houston THEY bought up mass transit to close it down. Fine, I like my cars but again the big picture is to make money and the Volt is more the uncorking of an uncontrollable Genie. Expect delays and double talk and making the best from the useful coat tails of bankruptcy.

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Eco Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:26 am

Today the NYT reported

“WASHINGTON — With a series of compromises on the stickiest issues behind them, the House Energy and Commerce Committee is poised to approve far-reaching legislation on energy and global warming by the end of next week. Where it goes from there remains highly uncertain.”

AND that

“Three percent of permit value will go to the auto industry for work on electric and advanced-technology vehicles, although the subsidy falls to 1 percent after five years.”

A staggering financial commitment on the part of the American public, to GM (oh, and a few others).

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Jackson Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:30 am

Economies of scale and manufacturing efficiencies will have a direct effect on our number-one worry, here: cost. Those who cite the importance of bringing the manufacturing process up to speed in the best fashion are absolutely bang on.

Having said that, I feel that I must add: GM Please, for the love of all that’s holy take another shot at designing that so-last-year iPod dashboard.

The prototype was “whissed out” of some design studio. It was less aerodynamic than a brick. The longtime posters thrashed this whole issue out very completely a year or more ago. We did lose some regulars over the styling change, but in this case form had to follow function.

I know of one car enthusiast who wrote off the Volt after the styling change; I showed him a picture of the Converj concept, and I think he’s back on board, now. Unlike the Volt concept (which was just a generic concept ‘in the pipeline’ when Lutz needed to float the EREV idea), the Converj was designed from the get-go based on the realities and lessons of Volt’s EREV development.

As is the case in most of the auto industry, you pay more for pizazz: and the more pizazz you want, the more you will pay.

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kgurnsey Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:30 am

Van #19:

I understand where you are going, but I would expect that in a time of war, necessity demands that new technologies are rushed into production and effectively “field tested”. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t. Either way, taking your time during development only helps to ensure that the final product performs as expected.

Considering the Volt a weapon against the war on foreign oil would essentially mean rushing development and production, and performing most of your testing in the field. While there are many who would be willing to trade refinement for a shortened timeline, I expect that most customers (who likely do not feel that they are in imminent danger) would not accept.

For the Volt to succeed in starting a nationwide trend against petroleum, it has to appeal to the average driver. That, I believe, is what is taking GM so long.

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kgurnsey Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:32 am

I still like my iPod…

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NASA-Eng Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:52 am

I’m a BIG Fan of the Volt, Andrew Farah and GM’s effort. I think it’s great on alot of levels, but having said that, Mr. Farah is full of crap on this one issue.

If gas was $4/gal, GM would toss the Cruze shell and interior on the Volt power train and start selling them right away. Don’t get me wrong I think they are doing and saying the right thing with their reply.

His comment was <> Blah blah blah blah. Translation… The market does not have a driving motive to buy this car with gas at $2/gal so we have to make it look pretty. And we think in 1 – 2 yrs gas may be $3 again plus our car will look Megan Fox (The Transformer Hottie Girl). Ok….Nobody looks like Megan Fox, but you get my point…

GO VOLT

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:53 am

Change the inside style. Change the outside style. I don’t care. Just get American workers back to work building the thing! My only hope is that the seats are a lot like those in the new Camaro. Very comfortable! But Volt will probably leave out the C3PO-looking headrests.

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Dave B Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:55 am

Van at 19# referring to the Volt as a weapon of war…

__________

I agree with you and that’s my interest in electric cars. I want our soldiers home. But I have to say, I am very miffed at GM as a whole. It’s treating it’s shareholders, bondholders, employees, and UAW like dirt. It is going to walk the Volt through bankruptcy, raping the company for everything, then take this product free and clear of debt thinking it is going to make a fortune. I have to say that makes me sick. Think of what it did to those that INVESTED money in it. I agree we have bloodshed, but what about those that spent money and effort on this car only to be screwed on the back end? It’s enough to make me go FORD…or even NIssan. Think about that. But I agree, ALL AUTO MAKERS NEED TO MOVE QUICKER ON WEENING US OFF OIL. People need to to think a little more before praising GM on it’s Volt efforts. This bastion of glory screwed hundreds of thousands out of billions of dollars.

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Tony Gray Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:58 am

We obviously all know how critical the success the Volt will be to the General’s PR campaign, although you can make a case that the Cruze will be more key to their bottom line.

That being said, this is the most anticipated birth since, well maybe since the 2010 Camaro. They pretty much nailed that one, as well as the Malibu (mild hybrid aside) and CTS.

I hope they continue to sweat the details and get it right. Little stuff makes so much of an impact. Like the way glare does or does not hit the instruments. If the touch screen smears every time you use it. If your elbow hits a hard surface or a nice soft one. If the steering is nicely weighted and linear. If the doors close with a resounding thunk. If the hood wobbles in the airstream.

For me, the most important thing is if the Chevy dealer in my hometown will actually have one to sell me when our Aura’s SmartBuy expires in March 2011.

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RB Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:03 am

Does anyone know how we can find out which Chrysler and / or GM dealers are being cut? (reportedly today)

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zipdrive Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:04 am

Where’s that monkey guy when you need him?

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ronr64 Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:04 am

The people who are associated with the Volt program have always been pretty straight forward so on the one hand I guess I should believe him. But I don’t buy it. As was pointed out by others if this is the case then why doesn’t anyone get to drive to the ICE stage?

The real answer, besides the fact that it takes a while to get all your ducks in a row to build a mass quantity of cars, is that they have to make this thing idiot proof. Most people on this website know multiples more about the Volt or other electric cars than the average consumer yet I am still dumbfounded when I read some of the rudimentary questions that pop up, assummingly from newbies. I suggest they contact my sister if they truely want to test it from the perspective of an unknowledgeable consumer! Ouch! That was a bit harsh but the stories I could tell…

For the first time software programmers are going to have more to do with the driving experience then engineers. My guess would be that is an undertaking in itself from a culture perspective within the Volt program. There is a lot of code that has to be written and even more that could/should be written in order to make the car behave the way you expect it to.

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L wesson Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:07 am

Per the original design constituting BRICK aerodynamics as Jackson says, numerous little nips and tucks could have assisted but there are limits to put a halt on turning all cars into looking like eggs. The under chassis must be a huge plus for Volt like cars.

And true there are a group of people who see transportation as simply nothing more than an A to B ride, they would look at the snazzy Volt as an economic drain on their other fine and tasteful purchases.

Per the War on foreign oil. The Volt type projects constitute a double edged sword that will cut both ways. The oil industry knows this and is not terribly wrecked with concern about the host nation state and the numbing expense that John Q Public spends pumping gas as them thar are dollars! not gas. And throw in the traders who make tons of money on, well, speculation on oil and gas prices. Don’t expect Wall Street to get tears in their eyes about the Volt and other such vehicles. Off to work!

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Tagamet Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:12 am

Statik
Isn’t it possible that you haven’t “heard/seen” about everything in this project’s books. I know it’s unlikely, but possible, no?
In your forte’ I see the country may lose its triple A rating. I know it’s kinda off topic, but wanted to give you an opening (g).
Be well,
Tag
Now more than ever:
LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS

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Herm Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:20 am

the original design was so ugly.. a teenagers dream car.

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k-dawg Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:27 am

Andrew Farah
#36 on Askmen’s 2008 Most Influential Men

http://www.askmen.com/specials/2008_top_49/andrew-farah-36.html

From Flint.. UofM grad.. I wonder if he went to UofM Flint?

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ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:29 am

I hope that the final Volt will have a lighning bolt through the Chevy symbol. It would let everone know on sight that this is a VOLT. Anyway, whatever they do – GO VOLT! GO GM!

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:32 am

tiny rant follows. Feel free to skip over this post.

Yep, they let perfect be the enemy of the good.

I love the description of car production as fashion design. Finally, some truth telling. I’m imagining which canceled vehicles are the equivalent of garments falling off the supermodels on the runway as they slip and fall on their cans.

They should have had this thing (the Volt) out two years ago at the latest (remember the last run up in gas prices in 2007 and 2008?). That would have been brilliant timing.

Meanwhile though, national average gas prices are up 64% since the beginning of the year. So, with either increasing gas prices or gas price volatility (down on the gas price yo-yo string is just as wild as up on it), it’s a good time for electric drive to enter the market, let alone for reasons of national security (stop sending your fuel dollars to volatile parts of the world) and keeping our fuel dollars in our domestic economy to help end the recession and to save jobs.

Meanwhile, though, bankruptcy looms, they haven’t retooled for the Volt (or have they?) and don’t appear to have the funds to do so, they don’t appear to have robust dealer/service plans for the differences of selling and making money off of electric drive vehicles (hint – less on maintenance and repairs (yeah, I know, all the non-drive train stuff is just as prone to failure) and more on plug and play upgrades and aftermarket bling options) and the current marketing for it is shockingly inadequate. Most people have never heard of the Volt or performance electric drive. You have to overeducate continuously and broadly, GM, using every effective tool cheaply and wisely or no one will ever know your new product exists or why it’s so extremely desirable (off the line punch from max torque at 0 rpm, quiet, very smooth acceleration).

Remember when the first train came through town? More small town Volt parades nationwide with local dignitaries getting public test drives at the end. Start in Texas…and Normandy (with the Opel Ampera) (a nod to Van @19, who gets it).

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:38 am

#30 RB said:

Does anyone know how we can find out which Chrysler and / or GM dealers are being cut? (reportedly today)
==================
No way to find that out yet.

However, Chrysler did announce they are cutting 789 dealers today. The notifications haven’t been sent out yet according to Chrysler, so the list won’t be public until then. (Chrysler had around 3,150 dealers total before this announcement).

We should still get GM later today.

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:41 am

Side note to CorvetteGuy:

Good luck with all of this. I know you got other Chev dealerships not that far away, hopefully they don’t go by seniority (or they don’t cut many Chev lots). You guys have way too many Chev dealers in that area besides yourself – Corona, Foothill, MK Smith, Tustin, Selman, Rancho Valley, Power all within like 10 miles of you right?

Do you work at Singh? Or one of the principals? Just curious if you have gotten any notices/feedback/assurances from GM? Be interesting to hear about it first hand if you wouldn’t mind.

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DonC Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:47 am

This is exciting. it’s great that the Volt is on track, though the suggestion that GM isn’t encountering any problems is comical. Of course they are! FWIW an “anticipated problem” never occurs because if you could anticipate it you’d either fix it or it would be part of the test plan and therefore by definition would not a problem — it would just be something you hadn’t done yet.

That quibble aside, this is really getting exciting. The integration vehicle is a very big deal. We’ll see in 13 days whether the skeptics who have been claiming that “nothing has been done since Q3 2008″ are right or wrong. (I know that some may try to move the goal line by changing the metrics. However, the fact remains that assembling the integration vehicle is a hard deadline which is definitive proof that the Volt is on track, and no amount of huffing and puffing can change that).

#34 Tag

The Interest rate on US debt are still very low. Very low. What would be nice to see after today’s job report, which made those green shoots look a little brown, is a bit of inflation. There was some in the PPI but mostly because of food prices, which are volatile. At this point some inflation would be a good thing.

The upside of the low interest rates is that it looks like the banks may be able to muddle through borrowing at 0% and loaning at 7%.

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Tagamet Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 9:52 am

DonC@41
Thanks for the help. I’ve always thought that inflation was a horrible thing because it reduces our buying power (and on a fixed income, that ain’t good).
Be well,
Tag
Now more than ever:
LJGTVWOTR!!

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carcus1 Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:01 am

Reading veeeryyy hard between the lines, squinting, and tilting your head just right, one might conclude that the EREV portion of the volt is a bust, and they’re now planning on (or conceding to) a BEV only version of the volt. Maybe it is the EV2 after all.

I’d rate this possibility as 1 in 10.

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DonC Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:02 am

For those interested in more technical things, here’s a short announcement about the development of a transmission for electric vehicles. Basically a way to use two gears in order to reduce drive train losses at very low and high speeds.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/vocis-20090512.html#more

The improvements seem modest but significant but come at the cost of a expense and of course another part that can break.

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Dale Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:07 am

#4. Dave “Offer a saddle interior with baseball stitching”

similar to the Aura interior option – I would love that option in a volt – Converj or the SRX-Equinox with Voltec technology!!

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:08 am

#34 Tag said:

Statik
Isn’t it possible that you haven’t “heard/seen” about everything in this project’s books. I know it’s unlikely, but possible, no?
In your forte’ I see the country may lose its triple A rating. I know it’s kinda off topic, but wanted to give you an opening (g).
Be well,
Tag
Now more than ever:
LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS
====================

My uber powers of pessimism allow me to fill in the blanks…lol.

As for the triple A rating…I can’t see that happening. American ‘debt’ is probably going to be around 75% of GDP this year, which although a lot higher than where it was 6-7 years ago…is still ‘ok’. Would take several more years of ‘more of the same’ for that cut to actually beome real (thinking 5-10).

By 2013-2015 when it is well over 3 figures, and we know the fallout from commerical lending/real estate/credit cards credit lines and finally see where unemployment shakes out…then we will see.

The danger isn’t from today’s reality hurting the rating in the near term, the spending/bailing out is a necessary evil (in most people’s opinion…not so much for Bill Seidmen (who died yesterday btw…if you know who he is)) the fear comes more from where we are in 3 or 4 years, and what the agencies ‘think’ the US will still be faced with at that point. If they think the US has gone crazy, and won’t….or more importantly can’t stop spending (looking at you healthcare/social security), that is where the problems becomes real.

Sidenote: Unemployment numbers where back to being bad again (from the previously ‘less bad’) today (some blame to Chrysler apparently…but isn’t there always someone to blame?).

I have to wonder what the fallout from Chrylser’s dumping of 800 dealers and another 2,000 from GM will be? 50 jobs related to each dealer? 100? Thats 140,000 to 300,000 direct loses. This is the kind of collateral damage you get from major bankruptcies.

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kent beuchert Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:09 am

People have to remember that building a Volt drivetrain is quite a bit harder than simply stuffing an electric motor and battery into an existing chassis and putting different sheet metal on it. Just look how long it is taking Tesla to produce their roadsters – they still haven’t built more than a hundred or so. And they started with an existing Lotus chassis that only had to be lengthened a little bit. Tesla didn’t design much of anything. They promised a Volt-type car, then Musk realized that his company couldn’t design one, at which point Musk decided that Volts were crap and that simple-to-build but impractical battery-only electrics were the way to go. He actually didn’t make the decision – that was made for him.
Of course, he ends up with a car that was not originally designed to be electric, much the same way that Toyota and Honda built their electrics back in the 1990’s. Only the EV-1 was designed form the ground up as an electric.

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Tagamet Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:10 am

carcus@43 said:
Reading veeeryyy hard between the lines, squinting, and tilting your head just right, one might conclude that the EREV portion of the volt is a bust, and they’re now planning on (or conceding to) a BEV only version of the volt. Maybe it is the EV2 after all.
I’d rate this possibility as 1 in 10.
******************************************************************************************
Wow, and I thought that *I* was an optimist (g). Hey, it could happen.
Be well,
Tag
Now more than ever:
LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS

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s miller Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:12 am

If you were to drive a volt on a long trip, how long will the car operate in extended range mode? Can you fill it up at a gas station and not recharge the battery and keep on going, say five or six hundred miles? What kind gas mileage would you get with the battery depleted? What about hills and mountians? What about nite driving with the A/C, and other accesories on?

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:17 am

#49 s miller said:

If you were to drive a volt on a long trip, how long will the car operate in extended range mode? Can you fill it up at a gas station and not recharge the battery and keep on going, say five or six hundred miles? What kind gas mileage would you get with the battery depleted? What about hills and mountians? What about nite driving with the A/C, and other accesories on?
============

I hear it only goes 40 miles then it is dead.

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:17 am

Just kidding.

You can drive the Volt just like a regular car after the battery is toast. So when gas is low, you can just refill it.

According to GM, and also according to ancient tablets printed with crude tools in the 2007s, it gets 50 MPG. Personally, I would expect 35-40ish using all the things (like headlights, radio, A/C) that you normally do.

I don’t remember….or maybe I don’t care what the new tank capacity is…it used to be 12, I think it was halved, 6 or 7 gallons. So you can do the math based on what/who you believe on MPGs.

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Jacob Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:18 am

If they want a cue on aesthetics, take a look at the Tesla S. Ditch the Fisher Price controls, and think more Iphone. Think more flowing lines, less Dodge Stratus looking. There is really nothing styling wise to distinguish the Volt from every other mid size sedan on the road today.

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s miller Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:19 am

It might be to true to be funny.

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Tagamet Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:21 am

s. miller@49 asked questions:

Yes, you can refill the gas tank and go again – for as long as you want to.
They are working on reducing the electric demands of such things as the AC and although they may reduce the number of gas free miles (all electric miles), the Volt is supposed to preform like any other car when running on the generator.
HTH
Tag

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Brian Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:22 am

#49

You’ve uncovered the achilles heel of the Volt. For extended non battery use you are basically drving a underpowered, anemic car with who knows what kind of mileage.

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Ema Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:23 am

give me a break people, I read that article and thought you guys were going to rip Andrew Farah and GM a new one, but instead you are sheepeshly nodding in agreement, are you kidding me

“Most of it truly is the aesthetic side of it,” he said. “The mule cars aren’t pretty. We know that people want a vehicle that is distinctive.”

Now some of you hit the nail right on the head by saying they had something special in the prototype design but they blew it by showing us a steak and serving us a hamburger. I don’t care about asthetics, iPod connectors, and baseball stitching nor comfortable seats, come one people this is a new technology, give me the gold nugget, the electric powered drivetrain and I will put on my own stupid red reflector sticker on the rear bumper if I choose to or put a pillow under my fat butt for more cushion if need be.

But no it’s we are tied up installing matching ergonomic vanity mirrors and dual homed pencil sharpeners, who cares about the accessories, give us a solid core, and if it’s complete like you say it is then move on to the next step. You change things every year anyway so why not realese a base model and add your crap the following year, with more useless crap the year after,etc.

I am so frustrated, June 1st can’t get here fast enough

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am

#28 Dave B

Exactly who is going to make a fortune on the Volt after the bankruptcy proceedings? GM is a corporation. It’s not a person.

If GM emerges successfuly from the Ch.11 (there is absolutely no guaranteee of that), and becomes a successful company (the best case scenario), it will benefit their new shareholders. As far as I can tell, that’s the taxpayer (all of us), the bondholders (investors), and the UAW. Also, many other employees will, hopefully, be able to keep their jobs.

Yes, I agree that many people have lost quite a bit because of GM’s fall. But if GM recovers, and becomes a viable company, everyone wins except the current shareholders. And any real value in the equity was gone a long time ago.

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MarkinWI Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am

A good discussion of the dollar and possible rise of Chinese currency as a new medium of international exchange – for those who are interested.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/opinion/14Roubini.html?_r=3&emc=tnt&tntemail1=y

Laura M @ #57 – Legally, corporations are persons. Also, given the explosion of executive salaries over the last decade or so, I think a good argument can be made that the real winners have been GM’s executives, not GM’s shareholders. The same could be said for other companies as well. There are some inherent problems in the current system of ownership (e.g. executives and fund managers whose incentives seem more linked to short-term/bubble gains than long-term corporate health) that need to be resolved before I would feel confident that real people in the form of shareholders will be the beneficiaries of any future GM success.

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canehdian Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am

S. Miller:
-however far 6 gallons will take you. (see below)
-Yes.
-We don’t know (6 gallon tank times estimated 50mpg = 300 miles/tank?)
-You can take hills easily. A little slower on gas mode, but should be equivalent to an ICE car.
-Any accessories will use extra power. To what extent, we don’t know yet.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:46 am

@Ema 56

YOU GO GIRL!!…..eh….errr………..PERSON!!!!

That’s what I’m talkin about!.

Just build my Volt Dangit!!!

No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No MuthaF@#$&# OnStar!!!

Make the garbage I listed, but another mans treasure, an “Upgrade” for those who want these creature comforts.

Standard Features:
4 Wheels
Highway Capable
AC
Heater
Defogger Front/Rear

The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…

[Cue children singing....]
This Volt is your Volt, this Volt is my Volt
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This Volt was made for you and me……

[Cue waving US Flag fade in across the screeen....]

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N Riley Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:48 am

So far with the 30 or so mules he’s been working with for the past several months there were no problems that weren’t anticipated. “Nothing has come up that we haven’t had an answer for,” he said.
—————————————–

So, does that mean the “problem” of the ICE coming on? If there is or ever was a problem. I never really saw that as a problem because GM does that kind of stuff now with the ICE coming on and going off as needed, but many on this site and else where thought there was a problem.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:59 am

@carcus1 43

Yup, if you read between the prhase ““Nothing has come up that we haven’t had an answer for,”

It says…
We experienced the expected defficiency of the Genset and know why it is’nt working as orginally planned. We know the possible answer, one is to disclaim lower than expected ‘MPG in Charge Sustaining Mode’ the other is to dump the Genset and and sell the BEV and open the rest of the SOC in the Bat Pack.

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Guido Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:03 am

MarkinWI Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am
A good discussion of the dollar and possible rise of Chinese currency as a new medium of international exchange – for those who are interested.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/opinion/14Roubini.html?_r=3&emc=tnt&tntemail1=y

Laura M @ #57 – Legally, corporations are persons. Also, given the explosion of executive salaries over the last decade or so, I think a good argument can be made that the real winners have been GM’s executives, not GM’s shareholders. The same could be said for other companies as well. There are some inherent problems in the current system of ownership (e.g. executives and fund managers whose incentives seem more linked to short-term/bubble gains than long-term corporate health) that need to be resolved before I would feel confident that real people in the form of shareholders will be the beneficiaries of any future GM success.
———–
“Capitalism isn’t a good system, it’s simply better than anything else we have ” – I think Winston Churchill said this. No doubt executive pay needs to be reined in, but how about pay for pro athletes and movies stars, komrade ? I’m all for continuous improvement, let’s just make sure we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. The human spirit is marvelous thing when properly motivated – the United States has provided proud testimony to that fact over it’s great history.

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Frank B Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:03 am

Producing a car “is a lot like fashion,” he said. “If you start too soon you’re selling something that’s already old.”

Having him say that, one has to wonder why then does the Volt look like 90% of the cars currently on the road?

He then goes on to say, “We know that people want a vehicle that is distinctive.” Again, the design of the Volt has failed on both of these counts. Don’t they look at the other cars on the road, do they design in a vacuum? They is nothing distinctive about the Volt’s styling, nothing new, nothing bold. In fact when the VOLT comes out, it will be the 2011 model year and the Volt will look like any average car from 2007. Not a very good start.

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:05 am

#58 MarkinWI

I agree that GM’s management has been overpaid. However, Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz are gone. And Wagoner was willing to work for $1 a year. The rest of management, including Fritz, have taken pay cuts. I’m not sure what else you want them to do. (And GM’s problems started well before they even showed up. At least they improved the product line-up. You have to give them credit for that much.)

I also agree that we need to do something about executive compensation in general. This is not just a GM problem. There are much more egregious examples out there. Look at John Thain who spent 1.22 million redecorating his office. And the bonuses he paid out to Merril employees just before the BAC takeover. And Merrill’s finances were already shaky. And then there’s Nardelli’s $200 million plus score at Home Depot after running the stock into the ground. And Chuck Prince got $100 million severance at Citibank even though he’s actually the guy who caused all their problems.

Good management can make a huge difference. Steve Jobs at apple. Mulally’s doing an amazing job with Ford. He made all the right calls–selling brands when they were still worth something. Improving the product line-up in a fraction of the time it took GM.

Something needs to be done about executive compensation (and spending.) First of all, it’s too high. And second, it needs to reflect performance. It needs to be tied to long term value. Not short term stock prices. And no more robbing the future like GM, Ford, and other did in the 50s and 60s.

But that doesn’t change the fact that ordinary people will benefit if GM becomes a successful company! Aside from the stockholders, a lot of engineers, and scientists will get to keep their jobs. The UAW workers will also get to keep their jobs. It will keep parts makers in business. And all of this will benefit the larger economy.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:07 am

#40 statik
Side note to CorvetteGuy:

Good luck with all of this. I know you got other Chev dealerships not that far away, hopefully they don’t go by seniority (or they don’t cut many Chev lots). You guys have way too many Chev dealers in that area besides yourself – Corona, Foothill, MK Smith, Tustin, Selman, Rancho Valley, Power all within like 10 miles of you right?

Do you work at Singh? Or one of the principals? Just curious if you have gotten any notices/feedback/assurances from GM? Be interesting to hear about it first hand if you wouldn’t mind.
_____________________________________

Thanks for your support. You are correct. There are plenty of Chevy Dealers within 50 miles of here. I don’t know first hand who will get one of those ‘termination notices’ today… The owner here has been pretty tense for the past 2 months, but about a week ago, things got a lot more relaxed and he’s been in a good mood. (as far as you can be as depressed as NEW car sales are right now.) So, my guess is that we will be around long enough to actually DELIVER a new Chevy Volt to some lucky reader of this site.

I hope to be the one to hand them the keys. (If there is a key.)

I found out yesterday that our dealership CSI numbers were one of the highest in the region, and I know that is one of the deciding criteria for who stays and who goes. So, I think we’ll be alright.

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dem-dog Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:10 am

With Lutz and the past and present execs selling their stock and GM stock hitting $1 or maybe less and a government plan to stiff bondholders (good luck borrowing after that!), GM doesn’t have any time left. If the Volt isn’t out by Christmas, it ain’t coming because GM will either be gone, a government agency, or a wholly-owned subsidiary of the UAW. Chrysler is already gone. Maybe Ford can salvage what’s left of the E-Rev program.

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Jim I Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:22 am

Dave K #10:

It was never my intention to tell you not to voice your opinions.

It is just that although you feel strongly about what you feel the Volt should be, there are just as many people with differing opinions. Just look at what Capt Jack wants. And I am at the opposite end of the spectrum from what he wants.

All I was trying to say is that it is nearly impossible to design a car that will please everyone. So it is just very probable that some of us will end up passing on the Volt, after we see what the end product is, and how much it costs. And we won’t know that until we get to sit in one and see the sticker price and options lists…..

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:22 am

#58 MarkinWI

I forgot to add–there’s no way China’s going to let the renmimbi become the reserve currency anytime soon. Do you know what that would do to their export market?

Absolutely, it would make Americans pay more for Chinese (and other goods.) But, I for one, think it would be a good thing. It would preserve our manufacturing sector. It would be better if it happens sooner rather than later because that means there will still be something to save.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:23 am

Dear GM,
Will my Volt know the topography so it can calculate appropriate genset runtimes to get me to a designated destination point i.e. will it build up a little charge reserve to account for an increase in elevation? For a short trip this might be better than the genset coming on and off to stay somewhere around 30%. This would be a lot of fun to work on. The software engineers can have a lot of fun with how to run the genset; I’m guessing that is a lot of what you are doing.
Will my Volt run the genset continuously to get to 80% for long trips so I can listen to Tina Mulrooney in complete EV(quiet)mode for another 40 miles?
Will you give me any options for keeping the genset on a while longer if I so choose on occasion?
Would the genset ever come on the prep my car for a trip home if it is in a cold parking lot?
Can I call my Volt with my cell phone and tell it to do something? e.g. If I must work late, tell the Volt a new departure time? This car is gonna be great. I hope gen3 will drive me home via GPS and collision detection radar so I can have a Captain Morgan.
Why don’t you sell me a Malibu with a guaranteed trade value to my Volt?You can take that thru C11 can’t you? Is C11 gonna negate my GMCard points?
Why don’t you ever respond to your customers? You have my phone number and email but you ignore me just like my first wife. (don’t make any noise, she’s still here, won’t leave,)

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vincent Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:24 am

Time is NOW to start educating the Masses on just what an E-Rev is and just how it works.
Cosmetics firms spend from $200 to $2,000 per day on Google add clicks
(adds on the search sites and clicks that bring clients to the site)
GM can afford this and should start at least a Google campaign.
Heck If my website is going to start doing this GM certainly can. Yes, mine will be at the low end of that scale….for now.

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Adrian Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:46 am

1, Volt will still use oil. So, drill here to cover it (not just gas but motor oil for the engine)
2, This car is for the rich or mostly rich. Marketing is key.
3, Bailouts and gigantic debts were not necessary yet still an evil. Our economy has yet to bottom out. Inflation is needed but will end up with huge inflation because of the Monopoly money being handed out.

All this means, when the Volt comes out, there will still a large amount of people out of work. There will be a new conservative congress in control. Expect a political war where congress wants massive spending cuts where Obama wants to spend more like a good progressive would do.

Not a good scenario for a now government funded car that only rich people can afford (including the tax breaks).

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Selvin George Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:49 am

this is a load of bs
anyone remember the Scion xB – well it was not a raging success, but it sold a lot of units!
just put the same engine on 3 different “aesthetic” and let people choose dammit
enough with the – oh “i woke up with a yawn today so I will delay the release by 3 years” bullcrap

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Dave K. Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:49 am

Jim I #68,

Do you think GM cares what buyers would like to see in the production Volt? If ‘yes’, then our opinions have merit and value. If ‘no’, then GM will have little chance of gaining the sales edge on Ford, Tesla, BYD, Phoenix, and Aptera.

If the Volt is offered in 6 colors, all having the same black leather with iPod interior, it won’t be able to compete. It would have last year, but we are not living in a vacuum. 2011 will be much different than 2008.

Adding a variety of interior colors and the option for 30 more HP gives the Volt a prayer in 2011.

=D~

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ccombs Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:50 am

I’m normally not too critical of GM’s happy-face announcements since that’s the PR you’d expect from any company, but this one is just too much. Seriously, they are not just doing “styling tweaks”. Gimme a break. Show us the integration vehicles running great with ice range-extender mode on, and then I’ll be satisfied that the Volt only needs “styling tweaks”.

PS. Yay, everyone seems to be using pinyin today (statik: bu xie, Laura M: renminbi) na tai hao le (那太好了)！

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:52 am

#30 RB said:

Does anyone know how we can find out which Chrysler and / or GM dealers are being cut? (reportedly today)
============

All the notices were couriered out this morning…and everyone has been notified now. Thus, Chrysler has released ‘the list’:

http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA61361514.PDF

Also of interest:

Chrysler is not rebuying any of their inventory (or schtuff), they will remain in operation until June the 9th…which is also how long they have to pursue legal matters.

So go on down to those dealers and get yourself a cheap, cheap car.
==============
#74 ccombs said:
PS. Yay, everyone seems to be using pinyin today (statik: bu xie, Laura M: renminbi) na tai hao le (那太好了)！

I don’t have my Mandarin keyboard (or MS conversion) handy. It is wonderful though, lol.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 11:53 am

RE: Volt as a weapon. Van #19

I think part of the problem is the USA has never made “getting off of oil” a national priority. This president, and the one before him never really pushed this. This is a country of extremely bright people. They can do anything with the proper incentives. It must start from the very top though. The President needs to use his bully pulpit and set a goal. No more pumping gas after 2020 (or some logical year)

Idaho National Labs has invented a solar collection device that is so good, if can collect energy during the night. There is our energy for the cars. Possibilities are endless. Our scientists are brilliant. But we really need to turn this into a National Priority item. I don’t quite understand why that hasn’t happened already. The argument is so simple to me.
This is a National Priority because we need to keep our citizens safe, our soldiers safe, our people healthier, our climate cleaner, etc.

My 2¢

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Dave B Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

LauraM @ 57. Who loses if GM files bankruptcy?

_____________

You have to be kidding. Those debts do not just get zeroed out and everyone goes away happy. It means current creditors get NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. I assure you I understand what a corporation is. I also understand the federal government is a separate entity and I have read the Constitution a few times (it doesn’t say it permits the feds to buy, control, etc. auto dealers). But back to bankruptcy… GM will NOT be able to get car parts because of manufacturers it screwed over in the past because they will not be given credit (prior bankruptcy). GM will not be given cash through bond issuances (because bondholders lost everything before on GM’s default), and no shareholders will want a worthless Chapter 11 company….

Not to mention the public. Who wants to buy a car with a warranty that is worthless? If GM isn’t around in a year to service the vehicle, what good is a promised warranty.

BANKRUPTCY = BAD IMO.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

I have a weird car scenario and it questions the finctionality of “brake Regen”.

Say I drove up to the mountains, the summit if you will, to a Bachelor party in a cabin. Drove mostly in charge sustain mode of course as it was 100 miles away. There’s no place for me to plug into. I’m OK because it’s the Volt EREV right? Right. Now I decide to go to Reno and it’s at least another 75 miles away with 40 miles of it all downhill at a 6% – 7% grade going at least 75-80mph. Now my question is, if I am mostly off the pedal gliding down using regen (not applying the brake), will all or most of the regen power go to the batt pack? Will it charge it past it’s “Charge Sustaining” SOC point? Or will it shunt and not charge past the SOC point for “Charge Sustain” mode?

If it will not go past the SOC of charge sustain mode then you are basically wasting a sh|tload of energy for no reason other than poor engineering. Theoretically it has been hypothesised that even with the Genset running you will not go past a specific SOC and “By design” does not charge to Full.
And yes this scenario will happen everytime you go up a hill and then down it again.

What say you?

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Tom Harwick Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

Rashid

Idaho National Labs has invented a solar collection device that is so good, if can collect energy during the night.

———————————————————————
Some of you skeptics may think that solar energy at night is too good to be true. But remember, they could not put it on the internet if it were not true.

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

RE: GM and dealers.

This is just rumor, but apparently GM is not going to announce anything today with the dealers. They are going to put out a statement tomorrow.

Also, GM has made a statement saying the number of closures/notifications through the end of the year will be less than 2,000 (which was the number that was being thrown around).

Earlier, they said they were ‘not renewing’ some 1,100 franchise contracts that expired at the end of Sept 2010…but we also have the ‘orderly wind down’ through the remainder of the year statement from Fritz.

So, I am a little confused if we are just getting the nod from GM on those 1,100 tomorrow and maybe we won’t see the additional, ‘Chrysler-like’ closures until GM itself actually hits bankruptcy. Guess it is a wait and see.

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MarkinWI Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

LauraM @ #65 – Agreed on almost all points. The only thing in question is the benefit to employees (UAW or otherwise) via jobs. See link below, but to sum up, GM is tap dancing around a politically uncomfortable truth: they are setting up to start producing cars in China for the U.S. market. GM gives a number of platitudes about the advantages of producing where you sell, but actions speak louder than words.

Many here will not see that as a problem. In the meantime Sarkosy (W’s buddy, considered a Conservative) is requiring French automakers to preserve French jobs as part and parcel of receiving government support. He rejects the label of protectionism and calls auto manufacturing a “vital” part of preserving a manufacturing base in his country. We are one of the only auto-producing countries not willing to take the debate down this road. We call it free trade, but to me, its the economic equivalent of unilateral disarmament.

http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/business/451139

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texas Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

Many posters here wonder why we are even talking about this. That’s because they understand the cycle times needed for high volume automotive production. Most people do not. That’s why.

I sure hope Fritz does not have to be bothered by the Volt team begging for funds. I hope it’s the other way around with Fritz down there wondering if there is anything he can do to help smooth the process. If Fritz and the board are not fully committed at this point in the game to the Voltec vision then GM is in deeper trouble than most think.

We will soon know what the case is. If they start talking about delays, coming up with excuses, etc. then we know the game is over. Might as well pack up and move to the Tesla forum.

I still feel confident that the upper executives are still behind the golden child project. If not, what can I say but good luck and take care.

Go Volt! Go Volt team! Go GM!

*My next car WILL be a plug-in even if that means I have to take buses filled with smelly people.* MNCWBAPIEITMIHTTBFWSP

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Tom Harwick Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

Laura

You have to be kidding. Those debts do not just get zeroed out and everyone goes away happy. It means current creditors get NOTHING. Absolutely nothing.
——————————————————————
Didn’t you mean shareholders get nothing? More often than not, the creditors get some return as a result of bankruptcy.

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StevePA Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

#65 LauraM

As I mentioned on the occasion of one of your previous posts on the big picture many weeks ago, “…ever the voice of reason”.

Could not have said it better. Balanced, insightful. Good points all.

Looking down the road several years, would be good to see GM winning in the marketplace, paying back gov’t loans, and its employees taking some pride in once again being a technological leader. In other words, seeing affirmation the current group of leaders and employees has the fight and focus in them to justify the taxpayers’ support.

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gsned57 Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

#39 Statik

#30 RB said:

Does anyone know how we can find out which Chrysler and / or GM dealers are being cut? (reportedly today)
==================
No way to find that out yet.

However, Chrysler did announce they are cutting 789 dealers today. The notifications haven’t been sent out yet according to Chrysler, so the list won’t be public until then. (Chrysler had around 3,150 dealers total before this announcement).

We should still get GM later today.
_________________________________________________

Fox news has the whole list published

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/transportation/chrysler-sends-termination-letters-dealers/

I wonder if i can get my Town and country for 10K now?

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

#63 Guido

I believe that quote was about democracy. But I agree with the sentiment. We need to regulate our industries, not destroy them. And sometimes that means accepting things like excessive executive compensation. But there’s excessive, and then there’s insane. And I think the current executive compensation levels are borderline insane. There’s no value added after a certain point.

And executive compensation needs to be tied to performance. CEO’s need to do a good job, or there’s no point in giving them those pay packages.

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

#78 Dave B

Actually, the current debtholders will get a stake in the GM. I think they should get more than they’re getting under the current governmetn offer (which IMHO is designed to fail.) But that’s goign to be up to the bankruptcy judge (who has shown a distressing tendency to fall in line with the administration.) But they are going to get something.

But the problem here is the government’s handling of the bankruptcy proceeding. They’re screwing the bondholders, and to some extent the taxpayer, in favor of the UAW.

There’s no question that it’s going to hurt GM’s future viability. For more reasons than one. There are a lot of people who won’t buy a car from a government or UAW owned GM. If the bondholders held the majority of the stock, it would help. And it won’t just hurt GM’s chances on the bondmarket. But any company with union employees. LIke, say, Ford.

But the government is doing the screwing not GM. Or even GM management (they offered the most the government would let them.) And, taxpayer money is our money. Not the administrations. So rooting for the taxpayer to lose is kind of counterproductive.

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statik Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

#86 gsned57 Says:

Thanks, I updated it myself in #76…but perhaps too much ‘other’ stuff around it to be noticed.

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k-dawg Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

GOV: “GM you suck, you need to be profitable”

GM: “We make trucks that are profitable”

GOV: “Trucks, are you kidding me? We want small green cars.”

GM: “Well, were working on a Chevy Volt. It will cost $40,000.”

PUBLIC: “$40,000 are you kidding me? We want cheap cars.”

GM: “Well, we could make cars in China and ship them here.”

GOV & PUBLIC: “Are you kidding me?”

GM: “Can we go back to making trucks?”

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WarrenPeace Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

GM is doomed. GSB whether 11 or 7 is not going to make them any more profitable now or the future. The problem, UAW. All GSB does is makes sure the UAW stays. Nobody wins in this scenario and the only one that get’s the most out of it is the UAW. The public is funding everything yet the public is expected to pay full price towards the UAW backed/driven company when it comes time to buy the Volt or any GM product. I’ve said this before, GM needs to just completely close it’s doors then respawn as a new company MINUS the UAW. In the current scenario there is a cyclic dependency. The UAW pushed their pawn, americas pathetic Obamination, into office and he in turn has guranteed the UAW part owner of the company. All in turn, the UAW will continue to suck it dry till it’s dead, taking the US with it. Already the price of the Volt is out of reach then on top of it we the US citizens and our future will be paying for this practically for ever. To purchase the Volt or any GM product now supports this cyclic dependency to feed the cancerous UAW.
I like the Volt and all it’s technilogical advances but as a tax payer expected to continue to fund an already cancer filled company wih really no hope in getting out of it’s ever increasing debt, I refuse to buy their products. The Volt will be a loss for quite some time and how much has already been dumped into them? When do you say STOP?
Let the new startups bring better innovative products. They can do it if the government would give them the same money as they did to GM and they can do it better.

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

#82 MarkinWI

I agree with you about protectionism. It would be a lot easier, and cheaper, if instead of lending money to the domestic companies, the government would simply slap a tarriff on all imported car. And, they should tax the transplants while they’re at it.

There is no such thing as free trade. The sooner we accept that the better. And we buy their products, they buy our treasuries is not my idea of a productive trade arrangement.

I am really hoping that suggesting imports from China is a GM negotiating tactic with the UAW. Because you’re right. If that’s their plan, there’s no reason whatsoever for the American taxpayer to loan them anything. (And China? It’s one thing to import from Germany, Korea or even Mexico, but China? Cars? Isn’t killing your customers kind of counterproductive?)

However, in fairness, I can see how the unbalanced situation (Detriot must use UAW labor, and the foreign transplants can employ at will, currency manipulation, legacy costs, etc.) might force GM into this. But not on the taxpayer dime thank you very much.

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Jim I Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

CaptJack #79:

As I understand it, the ICE will not charge the pack past the 30%-35% SOC, but I have never heard anything about preventing the regen charging to being used to the maximum. That is “free” charging, and should be utilized as much as possible. I guess the only limit to that would be if the SOC was already at the 85% max charge point.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

@Jim I 93

That’s what i’m hoping.
Lyle, ask about my scenario the next time you interview someone technical. Also ask about the Generator. We already have ideas on what the ICE is but the Generator is a big misty cloud for us.

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MuddyRoverRob Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

#93, Jim I and #79, Cap’n Jack

First of all BRAVO!! An actual car question!

As I understand it Jim is right on the money, and I’ll happily take that power coming down from the rockies in my comfy leather seats!

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Unni Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

What about brining Volt after GMs closure ? It will be Latest fashion ( and will be never produces so 50 mules will be collectors items ).

Nice to hear fundas to cover incapability.No wonder GM is in current position. There are takers for these fundas. I will also take this if they have shown me if there was a record of doing things with perfection. Even the new Camero, traverse are all in recalls because some order to vendor or vendor gave not specified part. Where these perfection words went at that time.

Now i know why Cruze came from Korea and New Buick designs from china because they work and even major part of volt from Germany.

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jeffhre Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

#94
CaptJackSparrow

@Jim I 93

That’s what i’m hoping.
_______________
I say what he says (Jim I) but I’d add that on a 6% grade if you lift off the pedal the Volt would quickly scrub off speed during regen, and you’d likely be using the accelerator pedal a lot in any case, if you want to stay consistently above 20 mph.

As always, that’s my story and I’m stickin’ with it.

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dave b Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

LauraM says:

But the government is doing the screwing not GM. Or even GM management (they offered the most the government would let them.) And, taxpayer money is our money. Not the administrations. So rooting for the taxpayer to lose is kind of counterproductive.

————–

That part, I agree with. There is absolutely no guarantee who is going to take priority in a restructuring with the government at the helm. Don’t forget one of the latest offers in the global “settlement” put the government as a majority shareholder in GM. Now that is a scary thought. The bondholders wanted control but that was shot down. There is no guarantee because what is happening is not happening by the bankruptcy laws. It’s new, it’s different, and it’s an animal I don’t think we’ve experienced before. But I will take it out on GM with my pocketbook when Ford has a competitive EV and didn’t use bailout money to screw the rest of the taxpayers…

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

@jeffhre 97

“you lift off the pedal the Volt would quickly scrub off speed during regen,”
True, but using it to drive with “One Foot” can generate a boatload of juice. At least 10KW @ 400VDC for 10 seconds. Chances are it’ll be more than that, especially going down hill from 80mph.
OK, so I speed…..

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

Tom Harwick, # 80
Some of you skeptics may think that solar energy at night is too good to be true. But remember, they could not put it on the internet if it were not true.

I just love sarcasm. Thanks. For the record, it was in the national news when I first read about it.

Of course I can’t find it now.

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CDAVIS Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

____________________________________________________
Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah said:
“Most of it truly is the aesthetic side of it…the things that are holding it up are really the typical new vehicle kinds of things,” and not in fact the high tech cutting edge battery and powertrain engineering which have so far proven very robust and successful.”
___

Cruze Volt or Chevy Volt ?

Why is GM going through the time and expense of designing additional model shells for the Voltec Platform when GM already has a full line of model shells they can utilize???

Going forward, GM should consider using the Voltec Platform as a power-train platform option for its existing portfolio model line rather than designing/supporting unique “Voltec” models. This shell model sharing concept is already being successfully done for mild hybrids. For example, GM should offer both the Cruze and the Cruze Volt just as GM offers both the Malibu and the Malibu Hybrid.

A Cruze Volt would be as or more of a hot seller than a Chevy Volt and would not require all the additional overhead of designing and supporting an additional model shell.

KISS!
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
______________________________________________________

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David K (CT) Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

Rashiid Amul Says:

I just love sarcasm. Thanks. For the record, it was in the national news when I first read about it.

Of course I can’t find it now.

===================================

Is this it?….

http://solveclimate.com/blog/20080108/future-collecting-solar-energy-night

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k-dawg Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

@ 96 Unni

KIA just had a big recall on almost all of its models.

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k-dawg Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

I heard if your battery is at 80% SOC, and you are going downhill, and the regen brakes engage, … a small blackhole is formed.

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k-dawg Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

@ 98 Dave B

Ford is asking for government money to retool its truck plants as small car plants.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

@RB 30
Truly urban areas lose dealerships first, where merely owning/using cars is very expensive and inconvenient (parking) and market saturation is complete and real estate/land costs to show physical cars is astronomical. What makes me so sure? 100 years of historical trends.

So where’s the best place for most effective dealerships in the US?
1. Nowhere. Sell vehicles on-line with build your version options, build to order, home delivery (with a big bow on top) default. Massive money savings all the way around and much better match up of demand and supply.

2. Get a population density map of the US, then an Amtrak train line map of the US. Locate the high popuation density areas with train corridors through them (hint: those are the same area the admnin has identified as appropriate for high speed trains). Draw a boundary 40 miles away from the train line in all directions. Put the vehicle dealerships on that boundary (40 miles from the train line in high population density areas). Bunch the dealerships in clusters at least 40 miles apart (think Brownian motion). This can accomplished through carbon emitting product sales waiver zones. Make money.

Laura M should comment on this.

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Jorge Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

#47 kent beuchert said:

People have to remember that building a Volt drivetrain is quite a bit harder than simply stuffing an electric motor and battery into an existing chassis and putting different sheet metal on it. Just look how long it is taking Tesla to produce their roadsters – they still haven’t built more than a hundred or so. And they started with an existing Lotus chassis that only had to be lengthened a little bit. Tesla didn’t design much of anything. They promised a Volt-type car, then Musk realized that his company couldn’t design one, at which point Musk decided that Volts were crap and that simple-to-build but impractical battery-only electrics were the way to go. He actually didn’t make the decision – that was made for him.
Of course, he ends up with a car that was not originally designed to be electric, much the same way that Toyota and Honda built their electrics back in the 1990’s. Only the EV-1 was designed form the ground up as an electric.

————————————————————————————

Please do your homework before bashing Tesla.

-They have now delivered over 300 Roasters.
-The roadster is built on an aluminum sub frame with a carbon fiber body making it the perfect electric car.

While Elon Musk should chose his words more carefully the truth is that both the volt and a BEV have their drawbacks.

The big hurdle for both the Volt and the Roadster was (is) the battery. Everything else is about software.

Tesla is the reason why both this site and the volt “program” existe.

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CDAVIS Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

______________________________________________________
#104 k-dawg Said:
“I heard if your battery is at 80% SOC, and you are going downhill, and the regen brakes engage, … a small blackhole is formed.”
—–

That is absolutely incorrect. You should not spread such rumors! GM’s engineers have devised an elegant solution for that very rare braking circumstance. Under that braking circumstance, the regen energy will be absorbed by the driver vis-à-vis an in-seat electrical tubular probe that automatically extends up from the driver’s seat. The energy has to go somewhere so what better place to divert it than to the driver?
______________________________________________________

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

Jorge and Kent – are you the same person?

No, it’s just not the battery, ’cause other lithium based power pack electric vehicles have been inexpensively produced for years and are gaining market visibility, acceptance and approval. As another poster pointed out in another thread, any electric vehicle power pack with a good power management sysem is likely to work just great.

“Volt chief engineer Andrew Farah …admitted GM has “been working the basic powertrain and battery stuff for more than a year or two,” but added that the aesthetic features “only comes together in the final stages before you go.”

Producing a car “is a lot like fashion,” he said. “If you start too soon you’re selling something that’s already old.”

He concluded therefore “the things that are holding it up are really the typical new vehicle kinds of things,” and not in fact the … battery and powertrain engineering which have so far proven very robust and successful.”

Calling it “high tech and cutting edge” is wrong. That’s the stuff in labs that cost millions each that won’t be ready for commercial apps for many decades. Calling it capable of plug and play upgrades as it improves is correct and helpful.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

@CDAVIS 108

AHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

Hope it’s lubed for better conductivity!

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Jorge Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

#109 Electric Vehicle Owner

I assure you I’m not Kent.

Can you name me these highway capable and crashed tested electric vehicles that have been inexpensively produced for years.

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David K (CT) Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

Capt. Jack @ 110…

Don’t let the guy from Austin, TX hear you say that!

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N Riley Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

The title of this posting is “Why GM Still Needs More Time to Bring the Volt to Market”. From scanning some of the discussion here, I am beginning to wonder just how many of us really believes GM will bring the Volt to market. Lyle, seems like a good question to ask and see what the results will be. Simple question: “Do you believe GM will bring the Volt to market? Yes or No.”

It would be an interesting result, I suspect.

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k-dawg Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

113 N Riley

Do you mean “ever”, or “on time”?

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Jackson Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:06 pm

No one knows what the mpg is in “Range Extended Mode.” 50 was an off-the-cuff Lutz-ism that no one at GM has confirmed or denied since.

At what point does healthy skepticism become paranoia? I do not believe that the Volt will be made into a BEV, with the pack “opened up” to the full 16kwh. This attitude near the top of the thread that “the EREV concept doesn’t work after all” is based solely on unwarranted extrapolation of the recent public mule rides. Perhaps we (and they) would have been far better served by continued silence.

Mind you, if this conspiracy theory is accurate, the ball game is over as far as I am concerned. It is far, far too soon to depend on a battery as the sole source of power for a serious automobile. I want a range-extender of some description, even it is not as powerful or as efficient as we were originally told. Personally, I’m expecting that it will work better than advertised.

No doubt GM intended to under-promise and over-deliver the Volt in every respect, including the roll-out date. If so, it’s a good thing they built so much dead space into the schedule, or they’d be in a world of hurt with all this C11 business.

Let’s hope they don’t have to ‘use up the margins’ in any other respect.

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Zach Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

I’m glad GM is taking the time. While it sucks we have to wait, it’s all for good cause. The last thing we want is an equivalent to the XBOX 360 Red Ring of Death to happen to the Chevy Volt.

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noel park Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

Hi guys. Sorry to be AWOL, but it’s hard to know what to say in the face of all of this.

All I can say is that our family and business have plenty of viable cars and trucks at the moment. We can easily go 5 years with what we have, probably 10 if we stretch. So, unless and until someone actually offers a Volt eqivalent, built by a US company, we are not going to buy a new car. And we could come up with the cash for a Volt tomorrow. I doubt if we are alone, so i assume that the industry can look forward to a few more 10 million unit years, until they step up and provide same.

GM, read my lips. We are your die hard loyalists, BUT WE ARE NOT BUYING ANY CHINESE CARS!!! Or Korean, or Mexican, or German, or Swedish either. US built and owned, or forget it. We are currently driving around in our 1917 Chevy, so we can keep them running as long as we have to.

We are saving all of the fuel that we can through carpooling, moving closer to work, and minimizing trips. So we don’t feel too guilty about driving our older cars awhile longer.

#31 zipdrive:

No kidding, LOL. Now that you bring it up, I miss the monkey guy too. We can use every laugh we can get these days.

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noel park Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

#19 Van and # 77 Rashiid Amul:

As Rashiid no doubt remembers, I agree with you on this “weapon of war” idea. Based upon the President’s remarks about the need for plug-in hybrids, I am cautiously optimistic that he agrees as well.

My hope is that the “Task Force” will have the Volt as one of its higest priorities, and will direct GM to spend whatever portion of all of these bailout $$$ is necessary to make the Volt a reality.

If not, then the game is over, IMHO.

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Iceman Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

Dump the ICE and instantly have LESS parts, LESS maintanance, LESS weight, LESS costs, LESS development time, etc.

This Volt is needlessly complex, extremely costly to develop and will likely never make a profit. GM can’t do nothing right these days.

F4

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

I don’t think it’s game over yet. Besides, the lady that was singing in the other thread wasn’t FAT, so we’re still good.

If it is “Game over maaann….” (Bill Paxton – Aliens 2), then I GET FIRST DIBBS ON ONE OF THE WORKING MULES!!!!

Yup, you heard me first.

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N Riley Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

#114 k-dawg

Do you mean “ever”, or “on time”?
——————————–

Never thought I would be thinking this way, but right now my thoughts center on never more than ever. I am beginning to really think it may never happen. It may just be that the negative press and the negative opinions on this site (not all, of course, and not but a small fraction) are beginning to have an impact on me.

Or maybe, I need to take a day or two off and be out in the sunshine some working my flower beds and seeing things grow instead of watching network TV news and watch an industry die an inglorious death by government take over. I can not imagine how our inept government could ever successfully bring automotive products to market. Products that take years to develop and produce. Congress and the administration (this congress and administrations plus those that proceeded them) have the attention span of my dog who has been dead for 5 years.

I guess I am down in the dumps somewhat.

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Dave B Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

Capt. Jack,

Do you think GM wouldn’t crush that technology in a heartbeat before letting it go through bankruptcy or auction???

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

Jorge

As I’ve said on this site before, I’m not interested in promoting brand names or specific companies. You can do the research yourself.

Does flying through 65 ft of air at 60 mph before the vehicle its in smacks the ground count as a crash? If so, repeatedly. They (the batts in the power packs) work great.

I am interested in performance electric drive that works. Whoever cranks those out for retail consumer sale gets my dollars. It exists, with lithium based power packs (and other energy carriers), and some are only made in the US (for noel park). Er, noel, GM is a global manufacturer with production in some of the very countries you mention, so I guess you won’t be buying from them. Cognitive dissonance, much?

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

@N Riley

“I guess I am down in the dumps somewhat.”

Have a beer…..
I had a couple already =0P

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

#106 Electric Vehicle Owner

I agree that internet based ordering would be ideal, although you’d still need dealerships to a)have a delivery point, and b)service the cars. However, there’s no way state law is going to let that happen. Not for any car company with any critical mass.

I don’t like the second suggestion. We have numerous dealerships already in existence. Many of them with loyal clientele. (I’m sure there are good dealerships out there even though most people have heard the horror stories.) Are you seriously going to make them all go out of business? Or move? Any gain in efficiency would be more than lost in the destruction of present value. And I don’t even think that’s the most efficient outcome–why should all the dealerships be together anyway? If they’re more spread out more people would have easier access.

And, honestly, I’ve never been in favor of central planning. Yes, the government is involved in the economy. But that’s just going too far.

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N Riley Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

#19 Van & #77 Rashiid Amul

I agree in principle about the need t advance the GM Volt program as though it is a war material product of the highest priority. I would also like to see the solar collector you spoke of, Rashiid, being considered the same and funding put forth that would help every home owner put solar collectors and/or wind turbines on their roofs. We could install neighborhood wind turbines that could be linked to 10, 20 or more homes to provide power to aid in heating and cooling homes as well as providing electricity for charging vehicles. We need to get some groups together and get started on projects like this as soon as possible. But, we can’t jump in too soon and waste resources until the technology is ready for production. it doesn’t have to be the best technology available, but it should be cost effective over a period of years to gain a pay back.

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

#115 Jackson

I asked the rep at the New York Auto show about mpg after the AER runs out. She said 40-50mpg. I don’t know if that counts as GM’s “official word.” But someone must have given her that information.

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N Riley Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

#124 CaptJackSparrow

Have a beer…..
I had a couple already =0P
———————–

How do you know that wasn’t what got me down in the dumps? Well, it wasn’t. I have not had a beer in more than 25 years. Just could not “acquire” a taste for them. Just conversing back and forth like this helps. Maybe what I have been having is “withdrawal symptoms”. I have been pretty lax on this site for about a week. Just a little “chatter” here and there. Been too busy working. Can you imagine that? Letting work come before “chatting” on this site. What is the world coming to? lol.

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CDAVIS Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

______________________________________________________
#4 Dave K. Said:
“…Mold the iPod control panel into the dash area…”

—
The two “iPod” screens do look out of place. The thick plastic screen bezels have the dated look/feel of 1997 strap-on headrest dvd screens that have been modified to fit on top of the Volt dash.
______________________________________________________

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N Riley Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

I can see the day when car dealerships are more like super stores. We have that now in a way. One dealer owns five or six dealerships around town offering about every line of cars available. All they need to do is build one big super dealership and bring all those brands in under one roof. They could train they technicians to work on a wide variety of vehicles and save money through consolidation of facilities and resources. With electric cars, there would be a natural reduction in mechanical skills needed and more in “software” and electrical skills. Convergence could be a wave of the future.

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

#4 Dave K & # 129 CDAVIS

I agree GM needs to do a lot more work on the console screens on the Volt. They need to really take the time to research other auto consoles that are becoming available and “steal” some ideas. The iPod look is out and is already becoming really over used. Just wait another 18 or more months and it will be dead on arrival.

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Jim I Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

N Riley #121:

We all have our down days, thinking about the Volt. It is the waiting that drives us all crazy…. Whatever hobby relaxes you, go spend a few days and do that.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

@N Riley 128

This guy is trying to have a beer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPoMjineGS0

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:13 pm

This is carcus1 on his skinneydip…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnUEcG4iH34&feature=related

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Jim I Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

Electric Vehicle Owner #123 Says: “As I’ve said on this site before, I’m not interested in promoting brand names or specific companies. You can do the research yourself.”

======================

Naming a few vehicles that are available for purchase is hardly promotion………. Let me restate that. Name a single vehicle that I could buy now and use as a daily driver. And then put a huge disclaimer that you do not recommend it.

I have done the research you talk about. There is nothing that would work as a replacement for my existing car. An NEV does not have the capability, I won’t risk my life on any highway in a covered motorcycle with three wheels, and I don’t have $100K+ for a Tesla.

As I have said before, what we need is a car to provide transportation, not a tinker toy we can show off to say we are ahead of the curve. And as of today, that does not exist.

That is why we are here waiting for the Volt……..

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Jackson Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:30 pm

#121 N. Riley:

“I guess I am down in the dumps somewhat.”

So you’re the one I saw there this morning (I’m a regular visitor).

It’s going to be either a long 18 months or an agonizing 1 month followed by real depression (and I mean “depression” in more than one sense).

#127 LauraM:

“I asked the rep at the New York Auto show about mpg after the AER runs out. She said 40-50mpg. I don’t know if that counts as GM’s “official word.” But someone must have given her that information.”

What counts is what’s on the sticker. That goes for the MSRP, too. We all need to keep that in mind when someone quotes $40,000 like it was gospel.

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Exp_EngTech Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

Thought I’d share some interesting news…..

http://www.electricmotorscorporation.com/main/products/index.php?link=2

This California company announced today that they want to offer converted light pickups using this technology.

http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/44932807.html

They will build this operation in northern Indiana.

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kdawg Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

LauraM, Electric Vehicle owner

I dunno about online ordering…. Maybe that can be the final step in the process, but I want to test drive and actually see the car in the flesh before i drop tens of thousands of dollars on it.

Also too much customization can cause problems for the manufacturer, or they could just pass the cost on to you, if you prefer.

There’s also a good instant gratification of going to the lot, picking out your car, and driving away.

I wouldnt mind competitive bidding online though. GM does it with its equipment suppliers, might as well do it to their dealerships. Heck, I’d even go as far as an online low-bid auction between Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda. I’d give them my vehicle specs, and let them bid against eachother to get my business.

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Unni Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

103: k-dawg : Yes, they dont say that they are late for perfection and they sell cheap compared to others and constantly work on improving quality – example hundai – they improved over the years, even the japs did the same.

The problem with this guys are they dont know something called incremental updates.

Like

First year base stuff, second year updates with new technology on that year model , third year again incrematal updates on that year model etc. So at fifth/ tenth year you have a entire different/Improved car with same brand name and improved and your prouction plant would will also be current. Thatz how people build brand loyalty.

Its opposite with GM, Once done is done, then sell sell and sell to get the last penny out. People will choose the incremental. Update cars because they will be very different from what they started.

Example for this is Fuel cell technology : GM say they are leaders.

Look at what toyota did, they redesigned the fuel cell and treid on a route from alaska to vancovuer and proved that their stuff works better .one tank of hydrogen they went 347 miles using 6 kg of hydrogen compressed at 10,000 psi.That compares to the 8 kg in the Chevy Sequels that went 304 miles. Now thing Honda – FCX is 65%+ efficent in fuel cell.

Same look at Prius : Gen 1 was not that good but look at 2010 Prius – Do GM has even one like that ?

Its not to blame but , they have to think if they want to win, The old market is gone, Last day i was talking to a person of 90+ age, He now owns a Nissan Altima and he said ” This is the fist import i ever owned, till now it was only GM but they lost me”. So they lost one generation which believed in GM products and the new genaration does not belive in GM brand, they look at competative market and market leaders and products.

NB: Look at advertisements : i never herd toyota or honda comparing a car with GM but GM always do that and gives publicity to their stuff also and finally normal public will go and buy them ( look at GM page and find how many times they said Toyota or Honda , and find vise versa , Who gives free publicity to them ): when you are number 2 or last in the race you can compare with others, else you need only to compare to self and on products. Even Ford is not doing that and they came with 2010 focus and keeping SUVs and trucks for the needed people.

I am notorious for saying ” The king is Nude”

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noel park Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

#123 Electric Vehicle Owner:

I mean that I am not buying any GM products made in China, no Aveos made in Korea, no Silverado pickup trucks made in Mexico, no Saabs made in Sweden, no Opels (”Saturns”) if made in Germany. I do realize that GM is a global company, and I am not buying any of their captive imports. When they finally quit building cars here, I am done with them.

#130 N Riley:

If you looked at the list of Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep delers closing, it is striking how many of them are actully owned by GM and Ford dealers. How about the poor Pontiac/Chrysler dealer in San Diego, CA. Or the Oldsmobile(!)/Chrysler dealer in Ventura, CA. I guess they just never got around to changing the name of the old Olds dealer’s corporation, LOL.

I guess that these multiple ownerships are more common than most of us realize. I wonder how many brand dealerships Rick Hendrick owns, for example. Or Power, formerly known as Auto Nation, I believe.

#135 Jim I:

I agree, although I would actually be tempted to try an Aptera. But they are not available for sale either.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

Sigh.

@ Jim I

My comment was:
“No, it’s just not the battery, ’cause other lithium based power pack electric vehicles have been inexpensively produced for years and are gaining market visibility, acceptance and approval.”
I stand by those words. I did not and do not suggest what people should use as their daily driver(s), Jim I. They should make that decision for themselves. I made that decisin for myself and my daily driver just happens to be a lithium based power pack high perfromance all electric drive vehicle. Mine is not the only one out there. Welcome to the recent past. It looks a lot like they keep saying the perpetually just two years away future looks like. Electric drive – it’s NOT the vehicle of the future – it’s the vehicle of RIGHT NOW 100% torque at 0 rpm off the line.

@ LauraM

1. A delivery point can be the customer’s home or work or a pre-delivery local warehouse (say, a recently defunct Chrysler dealership) for final assembly and prep prior to that. The cutomer can activate their premailed vehicle fob on-line or by phone any time after delivery. Welcome to the current, modern sales and delivery system.

2. What I described in the second place is the existing outcome from a largely decentralized, largely unplanned economy with little government intervention (US resident population with existing place of ressidence and buying patterns, largely determined by individual preference and voting locations by the consumers feet). I’m not promoting central planning. I described the successful vehicle dealerships market as it actually exists to see if anyone on the thread would recognize reality (do the research with data on the most successful existing dealerships and a map – don’t take my word for it). Apparently not. Those dealerships to be axed have been dead weight for a long time and have gotten in the way of free market supply and demand (consumer/lender/producer) far more than they have assisted it. Welcome to the world of creative destruction, aka marginal, obsolete and underperforming dealerships going down, brought to you by relatively free markets.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

kdawg

Modern vehicles are no longer made of flesh. That’s a common mistake made by horse (’er, I mean pure gasser) owners, so don’t feel bad.

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Dan Petit Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

Capt Jack is really funny and its great that he’s here to lighten up the negativity when that happens.
I got a charge (er) ….. great laugh too!!
Wait til the experiment with the removal of his Genset occurs, and, he reports here what happens. I know he will be completely honest with us all.
Cheers!! (It’s 5:03 pm, and I’m having a great tasting wine cooler…nice buzz).
Dan Petit Austin, TX.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

noel
Where do you think their parts come from?
I think you were right when you said ” I mean that I am not buying any GM products.”
I’ll sign up for the Volt, though, even with it’s made with all over the globe parts, common with every single new vehicle made on the planet today.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

Nike to cut jobs…

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2009-02-10-nike-job-cuts_N.htm

They “Just couldn’t Do It”.

get it, Nike, “Just Do I” slogan……

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LauraM Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

#138 kdawg

I agree about the need to test drive a car. That’s another reason you’d still need dealerships.

The way I see it, they should have dealerships that are owned and operated by the manufacturer. All identical cars should have the same sticker price (so you wouldn’t have to comparison shop). They wouldn’t have to keep stock in the dealerships–only one of each car for test drives.

I agree that customization would be too expensive. But they could have people click which features they’re most interested in, and then present you with a list of optional packages that most suit you. And they could keep the information on file, so they’d know which features people like the most.

And, I agree, there’s something to be said about instant gratification. That’s why I sometimes still buy books at Barnes and Nobles instead of Amazon. It’s why Apple opened so many stores. And Microsoft apparently plans to do the same. But a car is an expensive purchase. I think most people could wait for a week or two. And this would cut costs dramatically. (They could keep a couple of the most popular cars in stock to buy but nothing like their current inventory.)

#141 Electric Vehicle Owner

I think home delivery would be too expensive. These are cars. Not books. And the local warehouse idea sounds similar to dealerships.

You may be right about which dealerships are efficient. I’m certainly not an expert. But then why not let the marketplace determine that? Presumably, the auto companies are going to keep the ones that are the most profitable?. And have the most customer satisfaction?

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

Jim I
“what we need is a car to provide transportation, not a tinker toy we can show off to say we are ahead of the curve”

My comment was on general lithium power pack durability in motive applications, which is excellent, based on a host of expert reports and my personal experience, not on personal choices of transportation.

What you choose for your vehicle is your business, not mine.

I made my own choice, what’s best for me and my 26 mile commute. My vehicle is formally and legally recognized by my state as street legal, highway capable valid transportation ( I have the license plates to show for that – tinker toys don’t get those) and it works as such for me very well, each and every day, hardly the characteristics of a tinker toy. I park each day next to many vehicles very similar to mine, other vehicles used in much the same way and seeing much the same daily range as mine, except those other vehicles require frequent oil changes and visits to imported gasoline stations and mine doesn’t (also, mine is quieter, smoother and beats them off the line). None of those vehicle owners dis my vehicle, but maybe that’s because they’ve seen what it can do in person and know how that compares to their vehicles (point to those who argue that real world dealerships with actual cars on the lot still have a role to play).

I am not ahead of the curve. I’m a Joe Smoe retail consumer who bought my made in the US from US parts vehicle at an inexpensive retail price on-line from a reputable, reliable company who really takes care of their customers. I thinks it’s a great deal, use it all the time as daily transportation and it’s exceeded all my expectations. I’m not ahead of the curve (that means having something before it’s generally available). I’m starting to see the folks here and GM as behind the curve and rapidly falling further behind every day GM and you don’t have performance electric drive on the road.

Take the plunge. The water’s warm.

Remember, every time you dis an electric drive vehicle, whatever it is, you dis the Volt.

Many folks on this site seem to have highly restrictive statements of your minimal vehicle criterea, some of which no existing vehicles meet, and some of which I suspect far exceed your real world some days of the week driving behavior. The Volt, nor any other post-1940’s technology vehicle, is probably not for you. I suggest that you folks come well after the party and buy one of our then ubiquitous used electric drive vehicles, when we trade ours up for Generation V models.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

@LauraM 146

“The way I see it, they should have dealerships that are owned and operated by the manufacturer. All identical cars should have the same sticker price (so you wouldn’t have to comparison shop). They wouldn’t have to keep stock in the dealerships–only one of each car for test drives. ”

I H8 that haggling sh|t too. It’s the same friggin car down the freeway, why’s the price different? WTF? It’s MASS produced, it’s not like it’s unique in any way.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:44 pm

JIm I:
“I won’t risk my life on any highway in a covered motorcycle with three wheels.”

You risk it every day in a covered car with four wheels, though? You are mostly irrational.

So, stay off the interstate (that’s 1% of all public roads), problem 100% solved.

ok, instead of coming up with irrational things you pose as insurmountable problems, let’s come up with positive ways you can use electric drive in the 21st century (that’s the current one for those of you who were asleep).

I’ve suggested in the past that you stay off the highway. They are boring and for military and commercial trucking.

If you just want to sit like a lump and go straight fast without thinking or doing much, may I suggest a train (most of which use electric drive) or a transit bus (many of which are now hybrid, all of which are more efficient than a private car), (you can then at least read while commuting) or get a hybrid car if you don’t have one or get a plug in aftermarket conversion to yours if you do? Your area doesn’t have one, you say? Move to an area than does. That doesn’t work with your job, you say? Change your job to one that works with a transportation system that makes sense. It’s not hard. It’s called voting with your feet and its the American way.

I’m starting to feel like a therapist for a dysfunctional family. Don’t make me use the shock therapy (that involves strapping you into a Wrightspeed electric race car and letting you feel the acceleration as your lips bunch up behind your ears).

Thanks for keeping it light, everyone, and being part of multiple solutions, rather than just one more impedement (such as letting the perfect be the enemy of the good or letting the future be the enemy of the present).

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:55 pm

Laura M

“about which dealerships are efficient….But then why not let the marketplace determine that? Presumably, the auto companies are going to keep the ones that are the most profitable?. And have the most customer satisfaction?”

1. Yes, you now agree with my point. What I described was the existing solution of the free markets.The markets have already determined that we lose the hardcore urban and fringe rural and obsolete dealerships. The reason that we are seeing 800 dealerships go at a whack now is that dealer lobbies had previously interfered with free markets by means of legislators and legislation favorable to their misunderstanding of their own self-interests. The 800 dealer loss is market correction toward freer markets.

2. No, the automakers are probably going to keep the ones that suit their own twisted version of their self-interest, perhaps a combination of market share and locational vanity, doubtful that dealer profit or customer satisfaction is anything top company brass gives a whit about. Nonethless, we will continue to lurch ugly towards freer markets.

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Dan Petit Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 5:57 pm

#148
What are the exact specific costs that you mention are inexpensive for your lithium battery electric vehicle? It was somewhat difficult to try to gather what you paid to have the vehicle built, how long you’ve had it, who made it for you, how many miles you’ve driven it, what State you registered it (I don’t think security is a problem with just asking what State), who are the talented engineers who made it or converted an ex-ICE for you.
These are the specific facts many here would be interested in.
I don’t think that your post was meant to set anyone up to buy a used electric vehicle, but, in order for anyone to begin to have any rational facts to begin thinking in terms of what the cost per use-mile and other economic factors and risks are, it would be very helpful for readers to know these things for “informed consent”.
“Taking the plunge” seems just too impulsive without knowing economic facts, which, you might be able to help us all with firstly.
That would certainly be appreciated, knowing all the answers to the above questions as a first step for “informed consent” and “informed consent as to risk”. Thanks for helping us to understand your experiences more precisely from the financial perspectives. These discussions are very important, and, I hope that whatever the costs might have been, that you might not be worried to share how much each component cost, what the warranties are, etc. Keeping in mind that there would not have been any “economy of scale” in being fair to your very helpful post in listing all the components, the goal of my questions really pertains to your help in helping readers to begin to know what the components ARE, and what important job each one DOES. That way, we can begin to understand the terminology that we will begin to hear about in about 2 years, and, your valuable experiences can greatly contribute to green electric motoring. Thanks!!
Dan Petit Austin TX.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

Even more phukedup news…

Budget Bombshell: Governor Proposes Deep Cuts
5000 Pink slips.

http://www.kcra.com/politics/19464225/detail.html
That’s not all of it. The haven’t disclosed the additional 1 or 2 more furlough days.

I think I’m going to grow medicinal mary juwanna to supplement the lost joint income. Luckily we don’t both work for the state of CA.
I wonder how GM is going to price the Volt and sell it here in CA……lol

More beer…….

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GeorgeB Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:07 pm

In spite of the sad state of affairs at GM today, I’ve always believed that there were some pretty sharp people there. Sharp enough to involve the U.S. government in their long term planning which, oddly enough, will result in the launch of a 100-mpg car at the time when gass will, through taxes or corporate price increases, be at $4.00 or more per gallon. If they launched now, the car would fail to sell.

It’s all in how you play the game, foks, and GM is pretty good at it. In the next two years they will have succeeded in legally abrogating their agreements with their investors, employees and retirees and reacreated the automobile industry….from oil based to electric. Wicked awesome accomplishment if you ask me..

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noel park Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:13 pm

#144 Electric Vehicle Owner:

I am well aware of where many of the parts come from. When the non-US content, shown on the window sticker, gets too high for me, I am out of the game. A Cruze assembled in the USA, with an engine built in the uSA, as proposed, would be a whole different proposition from a Cruze equivalent built in Korea.

I would hazard a guess that a Cobalt or a Malibu would be 80+% US content, while an Aveo is zero. The same would hold true for the Volt, if the engine plant in Michigan is actually built, as promised. That’s the difference.

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Brian Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:18 pm

I don’t think we need car dealers any more. Why not just be able to configure the car you want online, add to cart, and have it delivered at a minimally staffed outlet. You can buy almost everything else direct these days and on the Internet. The car companies could keep a greater percentage of the sale and customers would get a better deal. We will still need garages for servicing, but the old school sales department model seems very dated to me.

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Unni Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 6:56 pm

Brain, How do you do a test drive ? How you know the car is comfortable for you ? how you feel when you drive ?

Read on why eCommerce didn’t take off above books and other small stuff.

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Shock Me Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

While the configuration could certainly be online, wouldn’t you still need to arrange financing before the “One-Click” purchase of $40K vehicle and whatever the shipping and handling is?

Also most people would at least like to test-drive before purchase. Perhaps configure after testing the same model?

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noel park Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

#156 Unni:

Good point. My wife is NOT ABOUT to buy a car without test driving it, no matter how much I try to convince her it isn’t necessary. Alas, I have to admit that she’s kept me out of trouble more than once, LOL.

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RB Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:23 pm

#121 N.Riley said
Never thought I would be thinking this way, but right now my thoughts center on never more than ever. I am beginning to really think it may never happen. It may just be that the negative press and the negative opinions on this site (not all, of course, and not but a small fraction) are beginning to have an impact on me.
———————–

The good part of what is happening is that GM has apparently almost finished development of a realistic working electric car, and in a few weeks may have some real prototypes of it. That is a huge accomplishment. Whatever happens to GM, it is a good omen for things to come. At best GM makes them and sells them to us. At worst, the lessons learned will be the starting point for whoever picks up the ball and runs with it.

So we can all be somewhat disheartened by the sad state of GM’s business (from my perspective now part of the “Obama Motor Group”), yet we can still be very happy about the developments that have been made. Collectively they are a huge step. The real Voltec car will happen.

If nothing else, this site has established that there are real customers with real interest and real money. Someone will find a way to take it.

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carcus1 Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:30 pm

CaptJack @ 134,

“This is carcus1 on his skinneydip…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnUEcG4iH34&feature=related
_________________

AhhhHaaaaaaaa!
This is exactly why I always wear clean underwear and practice good grooming practices with “Short & Curly” Shampoo. You never know when you’re going to have an audience!
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/aa74a2abbd/short-and-curly-pubic-hair-shampoo-from-thaffner
AhhhHaaaaaaaa!

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Nelson Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:34 pm

GM should hire Chip Foose from Overhaulin. If he and his team can overhaul old junk mobiles in seven days, maybe he can accelerate the Volt launch.

NPNS!

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carcus1 Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

#160 (me) add,

That’s not me in CaptJack’s link. I wouldn’t have “dove” into the pool. That’s not my kind of entry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr35ce2ecLc&feature=related

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carcus1 Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

Oh yeah. Other funny stuff. I guess this subject’s already been touched on, but here’s another link from the WSJ.

GM to Import Chinese-Built Cars
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124224047430416183.html

nnnniiiiiiiicccce.. . . . .

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:29 pm

155 Brian
I don’t think we need car dealers any more. Why not just be able to configure the car you want online, add to cart, and have it delivered at a minimally staffed outlet. You can buy almost everything else direct these days and on the Internet. The car companies could keep a greater percentage of the sale and customers would get a better deal. We will still need garages for servicing, but the old school sales department model seems very dated to me.
_______________________________________________

If you eliminate the Dealers, the Manufacturer will surely go broke! Selling the cars to the dealers by ‘flooring/financing’ allows the manufacturer to get their money immediately. Then the dealer takes on the responsibility of housing all that inventory for MONTHS and MONTHS until they eventually get sold.

If you put that burden back on GM or any other maker, then they will build a mere fraction of the total number of cars you would expect them to build for FEAR of having too much inventory on hand.

Dealers are not crooks. We play an important part of the whole car economic process. (Can’t wait to hear some of the rants from you guys on that comment!!!)

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Ron Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 10:45 pm

Slightly off topic, but relevant: I got the opportunity to sit in (and drool on) a 2010 Camaro RS today. If it weren’t for the fact I’m holding my clams to buy a Volt, I would have driven it home today! Man, what a sweet machine!

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jeffhre Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 12:43 am

#157
Shock Me Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

While the configuration could certainly be online, wouldn’t you still need to arrange financing before the “One-Click” purchase of $40K vehicle and whatever the shipping and handling is?
________________________
Without a salesman saying OK now sign here, wouldn’t most people look at a $40,000.00 bottom line and freeze up , maybe close the web browser and go organize the sock drawer one more time. After all the shipping, destination charges, taxes and so called junk items alone add up to more than most anything else most us have ever paid for in life, ever!

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Katzout Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 12:58 am

Censorship. Last refuge of the cowardly.

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jeffhre Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 12:58 am

#101
CDAVIS
Cruze Volt or Chevy Volt ?

Why is GM going through the time and expense of designing additional model shells for the Voltec Platform when GM already has a full line of model shells they can utilize???
_____________
OK one word Prius, Ummm vs. Civic Hybrid. OK that was 17 words…and five punctuation marks.

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Vincent Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 1:18 am

Check out this “Dealership” approach…

http://europeforvisitors.com/germany/cars/vw-autostadt-car-towers-customer-center.htm

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john1701a Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 2:05 am

Without a salesman saying OK now sign here, wouldn’t most people look at a $40,000.00 bottom line and freeze up
___________________________

People do that at $30,000. So, the belief that so much more will be easy to justify is absurd.

Heck, that’s why Lutz exclaimed Volt will be priced “nicely under $30,000“. Of course, he stepped down and sold all his stock.

Reality is, Volt as you once knew will die in 2 weeks. The new configuration which emerges afterward will appeal to a much wider consumer base. The purist won’t be happy, but it will become a product with mainstream potential… something actually capable of competing in high volume.

And yes, it feels good to finally have the old GM fade away. After so many years of fighting the ridiculous (think Hummer), being on the verge of major restructuring is great.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 4:56 am

David K (CT) #102,

Yes. Thank you for that link. I remember they were having a problem converting it to useful electricity.

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N Riley Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 9:01 am

“Down in the dumps”
——————————————-

Thanks for the cheering up, you guys. I went to my 5 year old grandson’s T-ball practice last night. That cheered me up some. It is something else to see those 5 year olds on the field. They had competition time and my grandson, Robert, won the most accurate throw. He came in 3rd in the longest throw, about 5th or 6th in speed running around the bases and 3rd in the longest hit. He was pumped and it help to pump me up some too.

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Jackson Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 9:16 am

RE: “Dealers are obsolete”

An employee at our company went to Atlanta’s car show and came back with a bunch of pictures and brochures. I expect that even if these shows were doubled and less centralized, they would be cheaper than maintaining dealerships. The advantage for consumers is being able to walk down an exhibition hall and sit in or size up nearly every model they may be interested in.

The test drive may have a similar post-dealership solution:

1) Radio advertisement (most people who still listen to radio do it while driving): “Model ‘x’ will be available for test drives in your area, July ‘y’ to August ‘z.’ Register online at http://www.modelx.com”

2) Appointments are made, people show up, drive the cars.

Some dealer-only types of service might be met in urban centers by large mobile trucks that come to you, again, on an online-made-appointment basis.

The idea that the dealer is convenient economically for the manufacturer (willing to take part of the economic risk for holding an inventory) changes once the manufacturing paradigm (and technology) changes to a more flexible model which doesn’t assemble a vehicle until it is ordered.

I have a feeling that the hard, dedicated line’s days may be numbered (it would be a high number, at this point), as the capability of autonomous manufacturing technology gets more advanced and less expensive.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 9:30 am

Laura M and other dealer lovers:

It costs the same to deliver to your home or office personally as it does to a dealer a few miles away, but then you don’t have crooks rooking you for delaying your delivery. If you prefer to pay more and get your new vehicle later than you would otherwise, by all means have your car dropped off at a dealer first.

For all those that think dealers are a must have for a vehicle:

That must be why Chrysler got rid of 800 dealers and GM got rid of 1,100 dealers in the same day. Wake up and smell the coffee. It’s not like you don’t know what a vehicle is or how it basically works. If this was 100 years ago, I’d see more need for a physical presence to show that self propelled vehicles weren’t really black magic or a scam. In the meantime, the oversupply on dealers lots is hurting prices and seller bargaining position.

DanPetit:

“What are the exact specific costs that you mention are inexpensive for your lithium battery electric vehicle? It was somewhat difficult to try to gather what you paid to have the vehicle built, how long you’ve had it, who made it for you, how many miles you’ve driven it, what State you registered it (I don’t think security is a problem with just asking what State), who are the talented engineers who made it or converted an ex-ICE for you.”

Some folks on this site need to do a LOT more research on what’s out there now for mainstraim production vehicles and what’s coming out of the pipeline.

Ask CaptainJackSparrow.

I have an electric motorcycle. It cost $7,450 retail. I ordered it in November 2007 so this is my second year owning it. It’s a commercial product made by Zero Motorcycles, who are based in Scotts Valley, CA. It’s absolutely not a conversion, nor a DIY kit, nor a garage job, nor a one-off. It’s a mainstream, mass manufactured product (though different performance versions and two different models (off road and street) are available. It’s got over 8,000 miles on it, mostly paved and some hard core off road riding and racing with $0 in maintenance and repairs. Since I have off road enduro tires on it, I might get those replaced next decade, at a whole $45 each, but they still have plenty of tread and are doing great, so maybe not. It’s exceeded all of my expectations and the range from the power pack (rated at 40 miles, two hours of commuting and riding around town at real world suburban speeds) is still going very strong (their street model has a 60 mile range). I live in a red, fly- over state.

I bought a near equivalent gasser at the same time for the same up front price and just following its owner manual mandatory maintenance, it cost over $1,500 in maintenance the first year (pretty typicle for a motorcycle, which requires more tuning and cleaning than a car), racking up the same number of miles, so so far I’m $1,500 ahead of the game using the electric. That savings will go to the electric vehicle manufacturer towards another model, where the gassser manufacturer didn’t see a dime of that $1,500.

Very many people where I work use motorcycles as their daily commuting vehicle, for the convenience and fun, so I’m hardly ahead of the curve or a stand out. My city just got their police force two new motorcycles and got rid of two of their older clunker cars.

What I use for my transportation is way less important than whether it works well for me as transportationm in the real world. It does. Deal with it.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 10:12 am

.

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rex Says:
May 15th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

I build buildings . Much like cars they’ve gotten very sophisticated over the years, lots of systems to control. They also have too look good and work well. Clients want what they paid for, to be the latest fashion too. The largest building today can not take more than two years to be designed and built, or the loan to build it will cost too much. 2 years. So when GM-ies say “it’s a lot like fashion” I have to agree, and ask, “So why the heck isn’t the car out yet? If I spent billions on a building it darn well better be built within 2 years! Someone is lying…..

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Bob G Says:
May 18th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

#119 Iceman Says, “Dump the ICE and instantly have LESS parts, LESS maintanance, LESS weight, LESS costs, LESS development time, etc.”

Data on this site suggests that the current battery pack gives a 40 mile range, costs around $8000, and weighs 400 pounds. Given all the misplaced criticism for the 40 mile range already (e.g., Letterman), I think it is safe to say that very few people would buy a car with only 40 miles total range. This means that GM would need to replace the range extender ICE with enough additional batteries to give much more AER (at least 120 miles, in my opinion). And that would drive a huge increase in cost and weight over the EREV design.

It’s obvious to me that GM has thought this through very well and arrived at the best possible solution given the current state of technology, infrastructure, and economics.

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Larry McFall Says:
May 23rd, 2009 at 3:53 pm

Bring the VOLT to market! To hell with brainy people like Letterman. He is probably like Rush, has money to operate the big machine without thought to anything else.

The VOLT is about as brilliant of engineering as I have ever seen. It is on the same concept as the Diesel Engine train with the electric traction motors. With a constant speed of the internal combustion engine driving the electrict (Traction) motors, the combustion engine should just about last for a long, long time. Not to mention the quitness of the vehicle providing the body is designed right.

Now don’t get crazy with the body design. No chopping and channeling like the new ugly Chyrsler product. Don’t need the Sherman Tank look. No gigantic big wheels. Be conservative and just make a nice and pretty vehicle that is functional.

I am in line for one providing, not a whole lot has changed as I have read about the Volt. Don’t let them young design engineers go crazy and make things complex. We don’t want outragous dealership maintenance cost as we have right now. A $150 to just pull the vehicle in the shop and believe me, it don’t take much to have to spend a thousand dollars.

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canadian dude Says:
May 23rd, 2009 at 11:14 pm

us$
Elica 300 000$
venturi fetish 400 000$
chevyvolt 30 000$
kind of expensive for a mid class family in a context of recession
I think that every car cie wait each other to make the first move
for building a mid class car because they dont want to reveal their secret of ingeneiring to competitor
for now , they only make publicity because its the ”latest fashion”(176)

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