Better Place is a well-funded start up company that has developed a unique approach to electric cars. It is the contention of their founder and CEO Shai Agassi to develop an infrastructure of battery swapping stations. In addition to charging at home, drivers would have standardized battery packs in their cars and when charge is depleted, pull into a station and have the battery exchanged. They would never own the battery and pay a subscription fee.
Late Tuesday the company revealed the first video of how the swapping process would work.
They have partnered with Renault-Nissan on the endeavor and have pledged to work to an open standard for battery packs so that they could be interchangeable among many vehicles.
The first country in which this is expected is Israel with a charging network to be activated in 2010. Other places networks are expected are Denmark, Australia, California, Hawaii and Ontario, Canada. The demonstration proof-of-concept took place in Japan.
“Today marks a major milestone for the automotive industry as well as for Better Place,” said Shai Agassi, Founder and CEO, Better Place. “For nearly a century, the automotive industry has been inextricably tied to oil. Today, we’re demonstrating a new path forward where the future of transportation and energy is driven by our desire for a clean planet and a robust economic recovery fueled by investments in clean technology, and one in which the well-being of the automotive industry is intrinsically coupled with the well-being of the environment.”
The swapping stations would cost $500,000 a piece and other than Nissan-Renault no other major automakers are on-board with the idea, including GM who is positioning themselves to be a major battery pack assembler.
I must admit the remarkably fast swap process is impressive.
“The goal was to make the switch of a battery faster than filling your tank,” says Agassi. “We have seen this device work in under 40 seconds in our shop.”
See video below:
[flash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8nTAjVaa7Y]
Source (Better Place)
This entry was posted on Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 at 6:15 am and is filed under Charging. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
May 13th, 2009 (6:21 am)I’m skeptical that this can be the final solution for EVs. Renault and Nissan may have a vested interest in ensuring that their EVs are compatible with the battery-swapping system, but I wonder if other manufacturers would be so committed.
I suspect that in the long run, this will be seen as a rather cumbersome solution to range anxiety, and one that eventually is made obsolete by improvements in batteries.
Then there’s the issue of driver’s who get a “bad” battery at the swap station and find themselves stranded….
I think the Volt is a much better interim solution to range anxiety.
Having said all that, I have to tip my hat to Agassi. He must be one hell of a pitch man to get as far as he has with this idea. Move over, Billy Mays!
May 13th, 2009 (6:25 am)I just do not see the advantage of changing out battery packs rather than charging at home.
I suppose it would be important for those people that do not have garages.
With all the insertions and removals, what happens when those locking bolts get stripped, and the pack falls out on the street?
May 13th, 2009 (6:28 am)The advantage is simple. This thing will give u a fully loaded battery in 2 minutes instead of charging it the whole night. This is the answer to the long-range problem of the electric cars! Imagine driving from LA to New York with a car that needs to be charged for 10 hours to get a full battery. It would take forever. This way you can just switch batteries. I really like this.
May 13th, 2009 (6:29 am)Let me see… I heard time and again one of the problems with hydrogen as an energy carrier was the lack of distribution infrastructure. How is transporting filled batteries to the robotic battery swap station any less of a capital investment then adding an electrolysis unit and wind or solar power to an existing gas station?
Personally I love the idea but:
How do they ensure a battery for everyone that arrives?
How many filled batteries will they have to have in reserve in addition to those recovered and recharged batteries?
Will there be regular deliveries from battery trucks?
Will this be a big VHS vs Beta fight trying to establish not only a battery format and chemistry standard but also shape and configuration?
Looks cool but seems an unlikely future.
May 13th, 2009 (6:30 am)I think this is a nice idea for long trips. But I would still charge at home. And what would this cost? How would they know the quality of the battery they put in your car.
May 13th, 2009 (6:34 am)Stupid high technology solution to a non-problem. By the time this infrastructure would be in place, battery technology will have evolved to make battery swapping a solution looking for a problem.
May 13th, 2009 (6:58 am)This looks simple and quick.
However, you do not routinely move very heavy and large objects around without problems. They will drop, get jammed, fall off, etc. etc. Thats the way things work in the real world where tolerances are not kept and things get bent, rusted, and stuck.
I like the idea in general but I agree with the concerns of building out this new infrastructure. Fast charging batteries or some other technology will come along at some point to make this pointless.
In the mean time, BEVs with a small emergency generator (Volt-light) seem to make the most sense. Kind of like the sailboat with the small outboard motor. If the BEV range becomes high enough, you would rarely use the generator.
May 13th, 2009 (6:59 am)This is so ridiculous it hurts.
What Shai Agassi is….is a guy that knows how to sell. Get some names behind it, make it ‘look’ like something…then monetize…rustle up a big pile of funding, then sell it for a buck….repeat.
Just how many companys has he ‘founded’ or ‘co-founded’ now?
I don’t uderstand how anyone looking at this can think it is marketable?
NUTSHELL:
$500,000+ per station…for cars you can’t get.
And when they do come…there is very few, and ramp relatively slowly.
And who is spending on this? Your cornor gas station?
And how much per battery swap for them to break even?
In what universe is this going to be cheaper to the consumer?
And what about people swapping out bad packs…is there some kind of universal insurance plan for all these stations so they don’t get stuck with it?
And what about everyone talking about battery tech and pricing coming down so quickly? Doesn’t that render this project obsolete the same instant there starts to be enough cars to support it?
/this thread hurts my sensibilitlies…(more than normal, lol)
That fancy plastic battery swap station belongs outside of the ‘Monsanto Home of the Future’ in Tomorrowland at Disney…in the 60s. (Tasty links to follow)
(House of the future)
http://www.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/mansanto.jpg
(House of the future writeup/pics)
http://davelandweb.com/hof/
May 13th, 2009 (7:01 am)It is an impressive video and remarkable they can swap that fast.
May 13th, 2009 (7:03 am)How much does Better Place envision a battery swap is going to cost?
May 13th, 2009 (7:07 am)the battery itself monitors its own health and state of charge.. if you happen to get a bad battery it will get switched out next time you go to the station. I am sure most people will still charge it at home…if those battery packs become a commodity and thus cheap, there is a chance other car manufacturers will also use them.
You would not need many of these stations, just a few in strategic locations such as in major highways. There would be trucks to redistribute the batteries among the stations.. obviously this only works with a battery that you dont own.
The stations may also make money buffering the grid for the power company.
May 13th, 2009 (7:14 am)I just don’t see this being practical. Hopefully 5 years down the road, it won’t even garner a second thought. Either fast recharging or larger battery capacities will make this idea obsolete.
May 13th, 2009 (7:14 am)I wonder how fast those batteries could be unbolted and carted away in downtown Detroit?.. better put some security protocols in the interface quickly
May 13th, 2009 (7:15 am)I work in automation, and there are so many issues with this, I dont know where to begin. Don’t get me wrong, I like battery swaps, but I think it would work better for a taxi-service that owns all of its own cars & batteries, and they are changed by a PERSON. Yes, i know they weigh 100′s of lbs, but that’s why they have manual assists.
How do you stop people from driving into that hole and staying on the tracks? I think we’ve all seen the YouTube video of the driver going down the oil change pit.
What happens when they pull up too far or not far enough?
What happens if something malfunctions on the car or the battery delivery system?
How robust is the system that holds the battery inside the car, including all the electrical connections? Is it IP67 (washdown proof)?
What if you have a dead racoon stuck to the bottom of your car?
May 13th, 2009 (7:15 am)#10 RB said:
How much does Better Place envision a battery swap is going to cost?
========================
“No Soup For You!”
“Next!”
http://www.whyy.org/blogs/unobstructedview/files/2009/01/soup_nazi.jpg
May 13th, 2009 (7:20 am)Cool idea on the surface. Good point #4. The infrastructure just isn’t practical to build.
Off topic but interesting:
GM is planning to begin selling Chinese cars (BYD perhaps) in the same year as the Volt’s release.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519974,00.html
Interesting twist.
May 13th, 2009 (7:20 am)Perhaps people will make appointments for batteries.. like every tuesday and friday afternoon at 4:45pm.
Yes, they will need to have a few extra batteries for emergencies, and you will need trucks to redistribute the batteries across a network of these stations.. yes the trucks will run on diesel
………………………………………..
#4 Shock Me Says:
How do they ensure a battery for everyone that arrives?
How many filled batteries will they have to have in reserve in addition to those recovered and recharged batteries?
Will there be regular deliveries from battery trucks?
May 13th, 2009 (7:21 am)Anything that can happen……will happen. What I’m getting at here is this is a mechanical device with lots of moving parts. What if it gets jammed, and what if it is jammed and caught on the undercarriage of your car? You’re stuck! Not to mention the damage it could cause. Even robotic assembly lines which pride themselves on their precision and advanced technology to operate within absolute parameters, even these have problems and mechanical failures at times. Too complex a solution ….. it would be much better in my opinion to just have a quick charge station…..or run on the range extender which the Volt has.
May 13th, 2009 (7:25 am)It seems like just another technology created to make money off people rather then for the benefit of people. I say no to fatcat technology. Also how many miles does the battery get? Also if you can’t ever charge the battery yourself what do you do if you run out of charge? I see towtrucking becoming a growth industry. Also lithium batteries would have a premature, shortened life because of being left with low charges in them for long times.
It looks cool but I say Fail.
May 13th, 2009 (7:26 am)#1 FME III and everyone else that said similar stuff…
I agree. Not everyone is going to agree on only one type of battery shape, size, chemical, etc. Then there is the possibility of the bad battery.
Good idea, but it just does not seem likely that this would/could/should ever work.
May 13th, 2009 (7:26 am)Statik #8:
Here are my attempts to address some of your questions as I know it:
“$500,000+ per station…for cars you can’t get.”
In reality, not far from cost of a typical full fledged gas station complete with buried tanks, hazardous materials issues, etc. to boot.
“And when they do come…there is very few, and ramp relatively slowly.”
The Better Place plan leans more heavily towards charging than battery swapping. For this reason, you are correct, there will be fewer swap stations in the beginning.
“And who is spending on this? Your cornor gas station?”
Better Place is spending on this. Think AT&T. They build the infrastructure and sell minutes. Better Place builds infrastructure, and sells miles. The “Corner gas station” does not buy this.
“And how much per battery swap for them to break even?”
No idea, although the battery swap is said to be a convenience for subscribers to their driving plans. The swapping station is one component of the overall package.
“In what universe is this going to be cheaper to the consumer?”
Apparently in whatever universes that adopt the infrastructure to customers. He has several countries, and including Hawaii and Southern California on the list to start installing so far.
“And what about people swapping out bad packs…is there some kind of universal insurance plan for all these stations so they don’t get stuck with it?”
Consumers don’t own the batteries–Better Place does. The batteries are their responsibility and problem if a pack malfunctions.
“And what about everyone talking about battery tech and pricing coming down so quickly? Doesn’t that render this project obsolete the same instant there starts to be enough cars to support it?”
The only aspect of Better place I can see being rendered obsolete by faster/better battery packs is the swap station aspect. You will always need to charge an electric car at some point. I mean just because your batteries for your cell phone now hold a charge longer than those of 10 years ago, do you now suddenly have no more need for your charger?
The whole idea takes a pretty open mind, but when you see it in action, it may make a lot more sense. IMHO, GM, Ford, and what’s left of Chrysler should embrace this. Gee whiz already….Shai is literally handing these guys a market. At the very minimum, when they go to make electric cars, make them these battery packs removable to work with this system. What’s the harm in that?
May 13th, 2009 (7:46 am)There are so many issues with this battery swapping concept, I don’t know where to begin.
First, the idea of a “one size fits all” battery doesn’t make sense. Even for similarly sized cars, the shape of each battery will probably need to be different to fit the shape of the car. The battery is a big heavy object, so the shape will affect handling, crash test performance, etc. A standard shaped battery will be a big limitation for auto designers.
Second, there is the economics of the swapping stations. $500,000 ain’t cheap, and how many of these swapping bays would you need?
Third, this whole battery swapping concept is predicated on the notion that all-electric is the way to go. The problem is that the energy density of batteries is orders of magnitude too low for this to become a reality. In other words, batteries won’t really work for for heavy duty or long distance travel. Liquid fuels are pretty much required here.
The good news is that liquid bio-fuels are looking much better. We all know corn-ethanol sucks, but cellulosic ethanol is much closer than most people think,
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9928810-54.html
and bio-diesel from algae holds huge potential.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA
Bottom line: The combination of EREVs and bio-fuels can easily replace all gasoline, all with our existing infrastructure of liquid filling stations and home electrical outlets. So who needs battery swapping?
May 13th, 2009 (7:47 am)#15 statik –> the jpg you linked says it all
Thanks.
May 13th, 2009 (7:52 am)Side note to my long post at #21:
The perception with a number of people of Shai and his company seems to be “he’s nuts”. In my couple of observations, he doesn’t seem to come off as the “wild eyed dreamer” sort. He’s seems very intelligent and seeks sensible, pragmatic soultions to big problems. And yes, he is a good salesman. What is wrong with that anyway?
Bottom line, I give him credit and wish him well with this endeavour. How many people do we know who are more than happy to bitch and complain about how bad everything is, but then have nothing to offer when asked how it can be improved? Maybe we look at people like that everyday in the mirror as well? Here’s a guy that quit his promising career at SAP to start this company. He’s taking a big chance here to do all of this. Why do we want to throw rocks at someone who is at least trying to improve the world?
May 13th, 2009 (7:53 am)This competes directly with a BEV with a range extender, it replaces the need of thousands of cars having a range extender vs having a specialized gas station to handle the battery swaps. Also handles the problem of people that live in apartments.
There is anxiety in that you do not own the battery, but that also takes away the anxiety of owning a hunk of lead that went bad prematurely.
May 13th, 2009 (7:54 am)I totally agree with
#1
FME III
May 13th, 2009 (8:00 am)I have to side with the non-believers. Maybe appropriate for smaller regions or fleets of vehicles but not practical for most long range driving in US.
Adding to #14 k-dawg comments, instead of a dead racoon on the bottom, how about a 1″ layer of ice/hard-pack snow to gum it all up?
May 13th, 2009 (8:01 am)500K in Israel is probably about 2 Mil in US after fulfilling environmental requirements & settling 6 years of litigation from all the NIMBY crowd. Then there is battery value, who in their right mind would trade in a battery they owned/purchased with car for a used one on its last legs? I see people buying used dead batteries pushing their cars into the station to get a cheap working one.
May 13th, 2009 (8:04 am)Fun facts about algae:
1) If you look at the oil we pump out of the ground today, over 90% came from ancient algae.
2) Algae doesn’t have leaves, stems, etc., so algae doesn’t produce cellulose to build these structures. Instead, algae produces vegetable oil – a lot of it. That’s why it’s so slimy.
3) Algae is the fastest growing plant on the planet.
4) Comparing algae to other vegetable oil crops:
• 18 gallons of Corn oil per acre per year
• 700 gallons of Palm oil per acre per year
• 20,000 gallons of Algae oil per acre per year
5) Algae can be grown in the desert using closed loop photo-bio-reactors. The closed loop system uses very little water.
6) If we took 1/10 of the state of New Mexico and converted it onto algae production, we could meet all of the transportation energy needs of the United States.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA
May 13th, 2009 (8:13 am)What a great thread. Most of us are skeptical, but the idea has a few defenders.
Ultimately, the market will be the arbiter of what prevails. It’s like Beta versus VHS back in the dark ages before DVDs (for those of us old enough to remember.)
May 13th, 2009 (8:18 am)Yeah, but what’s the cost? They’ve got to make money at it in order to bother to do it. They would have to charge double the cost of the actual energy used to charge the battery and they’d have to charge you for the time/infrastructure of the actual battery swap out.
You can charge your battery at home for a fraction of the price. I see this as simply a swap from oil to battery swap centers. Either way, somebody else is getting a handful of your money.
Once you install a solar panel or small wind turbine by your garage, your ‘energy’ for the Volt is free. Can’t do that with gasoline. Not saying it will work for everyone but at least it’s an option.
May 13th, 2009 (8:18 am)The whole concept is so misguided I don’t know where to begin.
But all my friends here on this site have nicely covered the points I would have made anyway so I’ll leave it at that.
This is a dead end street.
GO GM!
GO VOLT!
ps. there are some very smart people who blog here.
May 13th, 2009 (8:19 am)#1 FME III Says: I suspect that in the long run, this will be seen as a rather cumbersome solution to range anxiety, and one that eventually is made obsolete by improvements in batteries.
————————————————————————————–
Even with the perfect battery, there are still huge issues with fast-charging.
Let’s look at an electric SUV with a 200-mile range. The battery is perfect, so it can be charged instantly. BUT, that SUV needs 80kWh of usable energy to go 200 miles. Let’s say you want to charge that in 10 minutes. That would require 480,000 watts of power!
That’s huge! There is no technology on the horizon that would allow you to connect that much power safely, especially with rain or snow dripping all over the car.
May 13th, 2009 (8:21 am)Do people think these things through?? Are they so easily swayed by a good Power Point presentation. This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard of.
#1. Catch 22. It might work in a very small country with a HUGE capital investment(Very Common
). But never in the US. How many stations would you need around the US so I wouldn’t have to drive 50 miles out of my way to recharge my battery. No one will build/buy a car until this infrastructure exists and no one will build $0.5 Million dollar stations until there are enough cars with exchangeable packs.
#2. Environment. Today’s batteries have thermal limitations that require external heating and cooling for the batteries to be the most efficient and have a reasonable life. Do the better place battery design’s have heating/cooling quick disconnects?
#3. Cost. This would promote large battery packs in cars for a pure BEV solution. This would drive up the cost of electric cars and hurt their entry for the masses into the electric car market. I hope in the future higher ranges are available as an option (60-80 miles) if a person has greater daily commute. How much would a battery swap cost?? With the lack of competition and no available other options you will be at their mercy.
#4. Innovation. Standards are great, but they limit innovation of new products that are not compatible with those standards. Large format batteries for EVs are still in their infancy. To try to pick one today, may limit a breakthrough tomorrow. Can you imagine a new battery technology that can’t be used because it would require an expensive upgrade to the existing battery swapping stations infrastructure.
The Volt/EREV is the best solution for this country. No new infrastructure required, No increased drain on our electrical infrastructure (if charging at night).
The Gen 1 Volt is the 70% solution to our country’s reliance on foreign oil. Only two systems need to advance to make the EREV our 100% solution.
1) Better/Lighter/Cheaper batteries to drive down cost, increase range(for those that need it) and power the bigger vehicles that this country loves. (Full Size Sedans, Trucks, Vans, SUVs) Maybe even 18-Wheeler trucks.
2) Improve the range extender. Again smaller/Lighter/cheaper/efficiency and using renewable fuels. The EREV concept opens up a huge range of possibilities for range extenders. GM chose the 1.4L E85 Engine mostly due to risk/cost for the GEN 1 Volt. Hopefully future generations will provide us with a lot of options.
May 13th, 2009 (8:25 am)I buy new cars because I like to know where my equipment has been, whether the maintenance has been done right, and if it has been subjected to adverse conditions (like say, an accident). Swapping out a major component like the battery every time I need to “fill up” would completely rob me of this feeling. Also, since the “fill up” would be something that would occur every few days (at least for the foreseeable future) I think the number of trips to the “station” would get annoying.
On the other hand, does this mean that I would never have to worry about battery replacement costs?
Dave G @ #29 – I love this kind of stuff. Does any algae work? We’re “producing” so much of this already due to lawn-fertilizer run-off that we are losing the ability to use certain lakes recreationally.
May 13th, 2009 (8:26 am)I see this being good for a few select markets.
For many in the US, I will refer to #27 Electik’s quote:
“Adding to #14 k-dawg comments, instead of a dead racoon on the bottom, how about a 1″ layer of ice/hard-pack snow to gum it all up?”
In the Northeast, it is common in the winter to have the belly of your car covered with snow, ice, salt, and/or sand. Although robotics may be nice on an assembly line where all parts are clean and to tolerance, I can forsee great difficulties with this system in the real world.
Also, at an interstate rest area, there are usually a dozen or more gas pumps, and they may operate continuously on a busy day. Even with all these pumps, there can still be waiting lines. So how many of these “swapping lines” would be needed to support this concept, and how big will the battery warehouse be? Who handles the batteries after they have been removed by the robot, puts them in a rack and starts the charging process? And finally, who takes the charged battery from the rack and puts it on the robotic conveyor? This seems like a logistical nightmare to me, not to mention the fact that the station could potentially runout of charged batteries.
As I mentioned, however, in select markets, this could be attractive. For urban areas where there is limited access to overnight charging (apartment dwellers) and most distances traveled are shorter in duration, this could be a viable solution for an EV owner.
May 13th, 2009 (8:31 am)This one is so silly I couldn’t even think of a good joke to say about it.
I want my VOLT so I can be LESS dependent on companies run by guys with foreign sounding names.
I’ll plug mine in at home. Thank you.
May 13th, 2009 (8:32 am)This is probably a case where the guy behind it is a very dynamic “can-do” person, but he doesn’t have the smarts enough to think it all the way through.
So you get a lot of attention and energy put into something that just won’t fly in the long run or on any large scale.
May 13th, 2009 (8:37 am)*imagines seeing someone on a long country road lugging a battery pack to a charging station (maybe cars would have some kind of cart to hold the pack like spare tires) — like you see people sometimes walking to the gas station with an empty gas can.*
Not sure how practical this is for volume. You’d need millions of battery packs not originating in cars to make it work for large scale ‘battery based’ automotive system.
I think the ’5 minute’ recharge station is the better idea.
May 13th, 2009 (8:38 am)So does this mean each “battery exchange station” will have to maintain an inventory of battery packs equivalent to the number of electric cars on the road?
Hypothetical question: Let’s say within a given geographical region there are 5,000 electric cars equipped with the exchangeable battery and 200 owners decide to drive to another part of the country taking the same roads. Their cars lose their energy at about the same time and they all happen to arrive at the same “exchange station”, what then?
High speed recharging with advanced technologies such as those announced recently by M.I.T. look more practical in the long run.
May 13th, 2009 (8:43 am)Wait… Wait… I’ve got it:
Let’s all email Agassi and say, “No thanks. I don’t want to pay your Service Charge.”
Get it? “Service Charge”.
Okay. Now I can go to work happy.
May 13th, 2009 (8:56 am)#21 & #24 Schmeltz said:
“…Shai is literally handing these guys a market. At the very minimum, when they go to make electric cars, make them these battery packs removable to work with this system. What’s the harm in that?”
“Bottom line, I give him credit and wish him well with this endeavour. How many people do we know who are more than happy to bitch and complain about how bad everything is, but then have nothing to offer when asked how it can be improved? Maybe we look at people like that everyday in the mirror as well? Here’s a guy that quit his promising career at SAP to start this company. He’s taking a big chance here to do all of this. Why do we want to throw rocks at someone who is at least trying to improve the world?”
=============
What he is doing is attempting to create a monopolostic system that beholdens the user/industry to his whim.
Also, he didn’t ‘quit’ his promising career at SAP. He sold TopTier to SAP for FOUR HUNDRED MILLION, and part of that deal was that he had a contract to work XX years there…and he left because he was pissed he didn’t get to be CEO.
Bottom line is…it is way too complicated, way too many question marks. If you have to say stuff like, ‘try to keep a open mind’…then it is too far out there, it is h******* all over agin.
How about we just build and sell a electric car, before paying some dude a billion dollars to propose having thousands of swap stations all over the place…and then people are resisting the tech, or are clamoring for some complicated swap battery infrastructure…build it then.
This a Betamax all over again. Agassi is trying to bring out a universal format here and dictate a industry standard…not ‘improve the world’ and for that he deserves to ‘have rocks thrown at him’…he wants to be the next ‘ma Bell’ or Rockeller.
Electric cars = less dependency. Agassi’s plan is more dependency. Dependency on him providing and selling the power, and him all owning the means of our transportation…then making us pay through the nose for it.
I am ‘happy to bitch,’ but I also ‘look in the mirror’…and I see a guy that is willing to leave oil completely tomorrow, just give him the opportunity. I see a guy that says, ‘just build me a electric car…with a battery’ and I will buy it…and not only that, I will produce my own power for it.
—
Side note: I know it sounds like I am coming after you directly here…but I really am not. It is the subject, and a personal thing for me. I hate, Hate, HATE this, and I will fight this as strongly as I can until my dying breath…and I think a lot of other EV proponents will too. It goes against one of the main things I see EVs as setting out to accomplish. INDEPENDENCE.
It is easy to see why he can get support from big business and governments for this…it keeps the revenue stream intact. The logical endgame of EVs brings fear to people who make money on gas here. If I get a Volt (or a iMiev) in 2 years, and stay on EVs the rest of my life. How much money will I displace, how much revenue for corporations and taxes lost?
May 13th, 2009 (8:59 am)The whole battery swap idea seems to be too flawed, and too overly complex a solution to me. However, the fact that this idea is gaining traction anyway highlights the need to be able to refuel/recharge quickly, and on the fly. It will be a requirement if electric vehicles are ever to fully supplant the petroleum ICE.
Which is why hydrogen is not yet dead as an energy carrier. With the way the technology is developing, and costs are coming down, a fuel cell could still be a viable range extender option, if quick charge technology doesn’t pan out.
Biofuels still have the issue of producing combustion byproducts, which contribute to air pollution in dense urban areas, and are just as thermally inefficient as petroleum when burned in an ICE.
Although hydrogen is not as dense an energy carrier, a hydrogen fuel cell is quickly refuelable, produces electricity more efficiently (about 50% vs. 30% for ICE generators), and does not produce pollution at the point of use. Pressurised tanks to hold enough hydrogen fore a decent range can be made safe, even in the event of a collision.
I’m not an advocate of hydrogen per se, just pointing out that it has advantages that could make it part of the overall solution.
May 13th, 2009 (9:04 am)#30 FME III said:
What a great thread. Most of us are skeptical, but the idea has a few defenders.
Ultimately, the market will be the arbiter of what prevails. It’s like Beta versus VHS back in the dark ages before DVDs (for those of us old enough to remember.)
============================
Hey, nice thought. I hadn’t read your post yet, and used the Betamax reference myself, hehe.
May 13th, 2009 (9:04 am)I’m siding with the non-believers on this one. It’s much more flexible to have an ‘on board’ solution to a problem that can easily evolve (à la Volt) than to have this cumbersome infrastructure that allows little place to improvement, if any at all. Better think long about the design of the whole thing, they will be stuck with it forever. And I really mean forever.
One more thing. How long would it take to swap batteries ? Anyone who waited in line at the car-wash knows that it’s not washing the car that takes long, it’s waiting for all the other cars in line in front of you to be washed
You can always postpone a wash. But if your battery is depleted, you’ll have no choice but to wait in line.
May 13th, 2009 (9:10 am)The cycle time is approximately 1 minute, which is faster than filling up your soon-to-be-obsolete petroleum powered car (OK, not so soon). An interesting bit of information is that there only needs to be about 10 station battery bays (for each model of battery pack) because the current A123 batteries charge in only 20 – 25 minutes! Heck, that’s around 100 miles of range. Folks, we are closer to quick-charge than we realize.
After watching this I’m even wondering if we even need quick-charge stations. The swap is so simple and quick it might be far easier and safer to simply swap out even a quick-charge battery, have it moved to the quick charge port to be safely charged and cooled. Much better for Grandma and the kids. If it explodes it can be contained underground.
Doing this you could actually hold on to your own battery or swap out a different one. Thus, I now feel, after watching how fast and easy the swap was, that Better Place figured out not only a fantastic transition model but one that can be extended right up and beyond quick-charge batteries without major modification. Brilliant!
*Repost from forums*
May 13th, 2009 (9:11 am)Here is a very detailed video showing the latching mechanism, the size and shape of the battery packs, etc:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/
Yeah, some will want to own their battery pack but I’m fine with knowing that I will pay the equivalent of $2 a gallon of gas for the next 10 years no matter what happens with oil. I’m more than fine with that, even if gas goes down to $1 because OPEC tries to flood the market to kill EV adoption. That reduced risk is a very valuable thing, as many CFOs will tell you.
Since battery technology is so new, I’m not too confident about them lasting 10 years at full capacity. They might only have 70 percent by then. Maybe 60 percent. While BP can use those batteries in stationary storage applications, normal battery pack owners are stuck with the reduced performance.
Additionally, the battery is by far the weakest link in the whole car. If you don’t count the battery, the reliability and maintainability is several orders of magnitude better than today’s ICE based cars. Electric motors only have one moving part! Thus, BP can have the battery, I’ll take the proven assets. My confidence that I can sell my EV 10 years from now (if I don’t have to worry about the battery) grows by leaps and bounds. Why after 500,000 miles it might only need a paint job and some new tires to be good for another 500,000 miles. Now that’s value. What about buying a used rental EV? I would never do that with a ICE and automatic transmission based car. With an EV I would enjoy the lower price. These are all factors to consider.
Repost from forums
May 13th, 2009 (9:18 am)This is like when folks pick sides in a Chevy v Chrysler EREV’s or EREV v BEV and fight to the death over it. If the product and service work for enough people to make them viable, then it helps toward electrification of transportation. Relax folks. Repeat after me. Woosa, woosaaa, wooosaaa.
/Lyle may have misquoted the “Rather than charge at home,” part since the company also advocates charging stations.
May 13th, 2009 (9:20 am)I’m surprised that people think the mechanical problems are just too difficult to overcome. Yet, there it is working fine. Imagine 20 years of improvements. Yes, there will be bugs and problems but I don’t think it’s beyond human ingenuity to solve.
I even heard from many posters here that it would not be possible to do. The frame could not take the weight, etc. Well, there it is.
Oh, the new Tesla S has a swap capable battery pack located in the same area. Hummmm. Are they going to be Better Place compatible? Very interesting.
Thus, I would not write off this idea just yet. By the time the Volt hits the showroom floor Israel will be ready to roll. We can then evaluate the two models. That’s not even two years away!
May 13th, 2009 (9:24 am)read this interesting article:
http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-09/ff_agassi?currentPage=1
I think this will take off, I did not think so before but I changed my mind.
May 13th, 2009 (9:29 am)The swap machinery is interesting. It could work very well in the service bay if you needed your battery replaced or when you needed to buy a new one.
As a means of refueling a car it seems zany given the options. I can’t figure out why you’d want it. For long trips? Are you going to want to stop every hundred miles? How many locations would need to install these devices to make a long distance trip practical? If they’re for in-town use, how many locations would have to have them in order to make that practical? How many bays would you need at each location (all the gas stations near me have 12-24 pumps and they’re frequently full). How much inventory in batteries is this station going to have? What would that cost (200 X $8000 is $1.6 million!)? How would the station recharge the batteries without bringing the grid down?
I have friends who drive the compressed natural gas Civic. They spent $6K to put in a home filling station because the public filling points were impractical. And they wouldn’t think of going on a long trip. This strikes me as being similar only 10X worse.
Then of course there is the issue of whether a consumer would want a monopoly supplier for all things electric and battery related.
May 13th, 2009 (9:33 am)This is not a valid solution for me at least. Why would I want to wait in line everyday to change my battery instead of charging at home.
May 13th, 2009 (9:36 am)This is a great idea for a small country such as Isreal – but in America – too much space to cover and the cost is not practical. I would rather do a series of Wind/Solar generating self contained Hydrogen filing stations than this.
May 13th, 2009 (9:38 am)Further to my thoughts in #42 re: Agassi’s plan and revenue draw:
If I am dependent on PBP for batteries and power, this is what I get:
–I get 3 trips to the station a week, instead of 1 every other week.
–I buy power at a mark-up from them
–The gov’t still solely responsible for producing the power however it can
–PBP buys batteries and marks up their cost inside the price of the ‘refuels’
–The price of electricity scales up as gas dwindles, to make up the revenue (and basic supply and demand, and I have no choice but to pay ie- no personal solar/wind…ever
–On top of that we get taxes all over the place in the price
—– We get them at the ‘station’ level
—– At the corporate level
—– At the power manufacturing level.
–Also if you have a Volt, or a E-Rev platform…you get the bonus of having to go to TWO stations…yippee!
In the case of a Volt-like platform Your looking at LEAST $20 for a pack swap on say a 8 kWh charge. Whoopie, that works out to be $2.50 kW….which for the Volt would be like paying $20 to go 40 miles, or at 50MPG, equivalent to gas at $50/gallon.
/please sir, can I have some more?
(A conventional BEV would be more like $20 for a 16kWh pack (thinking iMiev)…or $1.25 kW, equivalent to something like $25/gallon)
Anyone here think you are going to roll in a get a pack swap for $1 like it would cost you to charge at home? I don’t think so.
——-
Big FInale moment: If you buy a EV shell and Agassi owns all the packs, do you think you are getting the $7,500 rebate? I doubt it, he does.
And by the time you need to turn in your Volt, the packs are probably down to $4,000.
——
Math moment: 15,000 miles a year @ 80 miles a ‘fill’ (16kWh pack on a full BEV) = 187 trips to the station…and $3,750/year. Unless he is providing 50kWh packs (and we also have cars to accept them) for $20? Do they exist..the cars or packs? nope
==========================
/I dare anyone to make this make sense.
May 13th, 2009 (9:39 am)Ummm….no.
May 13th, 2009 (9:39 am)“Rather than charge at home, drivers would have standardized battery packs in their cars and when charge is depleted, pull into a station and have the battery exchanged.”
This statement is NOT correct!
The electric car will be charged at the owner’s home each night and topped-up at every possible charging station during stops in the daily travels as this will help load level the grid and minimize the cost of electricity for everyone.
The battery exchange will only take place when a trip exceeds the range of the battery and “rapid-charging” is unavailable.
Personally, I don’t care for the “cell phone model” and I don’t like the idea of leasing the battery pack. However it’s nice to have options and I’m sure pack range will continue to increase as technology improves and the older packs can be used by utilities for load leveling and sold to homeowners for back up power.
May 13th, 2009 (9:43 am)As a deep skeptic of the Better Place concept, but knowing that on rare occasions I am wrong (smile here), I was trying to imagine how to modify the idea to make it into something that, to me, would seem better.
I think a more promising pathway is to make the Better Place stations into “full service” auto-battery centers. They would be places that would not just charge or exchange, but would lease a battery on various long and short term plans, would check out a battery, and perhaps would take trade-ins toward a re-sale battery. They also could fully recharge a battery (for a fee), and that could be a good sideline business for a service center in, for example, a shopping mall. (Lots of Sears auto centers with such locations.)
The attractive part is that the world is going to need some auto-battery-sales-and-service sites that are independent of auto dealers and that have the capital and expertise to provide auto-battery items. This is the same market that already exists for AutoZone and similar retailers. For customers, it allows a non-dealer source (thus probably lower priced) and a path to upgraded batteries over the life of the rest of the car (which will be longer than the life of the initial battery, most likely).
Perhaps most important, it will greatly help the resale value of the Volt or other such cars, where a major drawback is going to be the uncertain state of this huge and expensive battery.
I am still doubtful, but maybe there are possibilities worth considering.
May 13th, 2009 (9:43 am)#14 k-dawg
I think you’re right that this would work well for taxis, at least in New York, and probably a lot of other places. I spoke to a cab driver in NYC, and he said that they only go 115-150 miles per shift. (I though it was 300.) So, if they could develop a battery that could give 200 miles of range for a mid-size sedan, this could really work.
The taxis all return to the taxi terminal at the end of each shift anyway. So, they could switch batteries when they switch drivers. That way each taxi could have a battery station, and two batteries, one per shift, which would elmiinate the different battery problem. Or they could share one-per four taxis. It would probably still be easy to keep them straight. Although most of them are owned by the company, so it wouldn’t be a big deal anyway.
Taxis drive a lot of miles, so it would probably produce a net savings pretty quickly. It would reduce urban air pollution. They’re centrally controlled, so it would be easy to implement.
But I also think EREV is a much better solution everywhere else.
May 13th, 2009 (9:46 am)read the wired article folks.. a lot of misconceptions are flying around. Agassi promises that it will be cheaper than owning a conventional car.. but probably not at gas being $2 a gallon.
May 13th, 2009 (9:50 am)#49 texas says “By the time the Volt hits the showroom floor Israel will be ready to roll. We can then evaluate the two models.”
The countries are of such different sizes that it’s not reasonable to compare. Additionally Israel doesn’t produce any oil and it has a “complicated” relationship with oil producing states. So what makes sense in one place probably doesn’t in another. For an idea of the size:
http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps/calif.htm
May 13th, 2009 (9:52 am)too many moving parts, I can just see my 60 year old mother trying to drive up those ramps, what if she is off by a foot to far forward or back that swap looks like a pretty precise operation
then there’s people like me who like to keep their cars looking and running immaculate, and then there’s deadbeats who don’t, I don’t want my clean well cared for battery going to them and worse, me getting one of theirs
May 13th, 2009 (9:52 am)Pre-emptive apology for being so negative. I know I should be ‘open-minded,’ and my posts are uncharacteristically littered with sarcasm…but I refuse.
I just can’t take the chance on this being the ultimate ‘utopia’ it is being portrayed as being at the risk of it ending up being a big cluster…
/maybe I’ll just catch everyone in the next thread
May 13th, 2009 (9:58 am)Well I give them kudos for an interesting and fun machine to watch in action!
Having said that, it would get old in a real hurry waiting in line for a swap Also there is no way a station like this is going to be situated in the small towns between us and our son’s place, 250km away.
I’m volt-side on this one.
May 13th, 2009 (10:01 am)#56 TIm said:
“Rather than charge at home, drivers would have standardized battery packs in their cars and when charge is depleted, pull into a station and have the battery exchanged.”
This statement is NOT correct!
The electric car will be charged at the owner’s home each night and topped-up at every possible charging station during stops in the daily travels as this will help load level the grid and minimize the cost of electricity for everyone.
The battery exchange will only take place when a trip exceeds the range of the battery and “rapid-charging” is unavailable.
Personally, I don’t care for the “cell phone model” and I don’t like the idea of leasing the battery pack. However it’s nice to have options and I’m sure pack range will continue to increase as technology improves and the older packs can be used by utilities for load leveling and sold to homeowners for back up power.
———————-
This is a good addendum, and one I did not calculate into my ‘math,’ specifically if are able to charge Agassi’s packs at home…if that is how it works out.
Would you be able to just plug it in, simple as that? …or would you need a special ‘PBP’ approved charging station as part of your battery contract…and/or pay a fee for the portions of battery life usage you were taking up? Net meter monitoring? I really don’t know…again, this is in the category of, ‘lets see how it works somewhere else’ before we consider it.
We still have the pack premiums and the cost of the infrastructure worked into that…but you would have the option to produce your own power (in that regard it would be ‘ok’)
/good point…thanks (I guess thats what I was talking about not allowing myself to be open-minded…but I stil hate it and want it to die a painful death, lol)
May 13th, 2009 (10:13 am)Off Topic:
Over on the HybridCar website, they post a story on the Ford EV due out in 2011. It also mentions that Ford will introduce a PHEV in 2012.
http://www.hybridcars.com/vehicle/ford-focus-ev.html
May 13th, 2009 (10:15 am)People don’t want their car being serviced for any reason. This includes gas station fill ups. The battery swap station is not a real world solution.
=D~
May 13th, 2009 (10:17 am)Sounds like a genius way to retrofit all those someday useless Jiffy-Lube Oil-Change locations.
May 13th, 2009 (10:18 am)Brilliant !
This is the only way to go. GM is just trying to lock you into PROPRIETARY solution so you will be paying them forever. There really is nothing special about Lithium batteries, they are proven and have been used extensively throughout the world for many many years. GM’s so-called “conditioned” battery is a farce, don’t be fooled, third party developers can make much better battery to swap in its place, however, GM won’t let it happen ($$$).
Go Nissan. Go Better Place. Change the Volt now.
May 13th, 2009 (10:19 am)Battery switching schemes, if not already dead because of their “horrible economics, for cars already too expensive” (in the words of one economist), will also be seen as totally irrelevant come the development (within 2 years) of fast charging li ions, sent on
a fast track by MIT research a few weeks ago. I don’t believe that anyone doubts that the new technology will result in fast charging
li ion batteries, and they most cerrtainly will cost no more than
regular ones to produce. That spells disaster for a scheme whose
strategy requires more than 1 battery pack per car, like Better Place.
Remember that each travelling client will have to be backed up by at least 4 batteries as he tools down the highway, and those batteries will have to be located in just the right locations, an inefficiency that requires even more batteries per client. Since its the cost of batteries that makes EVs so expensive,, this scheme actually appears to be one tht maximizes th cost of batteries. This scheme could only have been dreamed up by a battery manufacturer.
When Better Place first appeared asa concept a year or more ago, I said at the time that this was a VERY risky commercial venture – it
depends upon NO advancement in the recharge rates of batteries, which I thought at the time was a bad bet, given that Altair batteries could already recharge in a few minutes. I maintain that the simple, inexpensive recharge ports that fast recharging EVs will need are
most efficiently placed in existing gas service stations, which will transition over as EVs appear in their client population. Building the enormous infrastructure implied by Better Place (there should be a station with 6 miles or so of any given point) is totally outrageous
and extraordinarily a gigantic waste of money. Guess who pays for that infrastructure? Better Place has been eclipsed by technology. The sooner all those billionaires investing in this now-pointless scheme see that, the better. The Volt can accomplish 97% of what
a fleet of battery-onlies can and doesn’t force us to rebuild/duplicate anything. This concept has become so brainless, it’s a wonder that Letterman and Obama haven’t jumped on board at this point.
May 13th, 2009 (10:20 am)I read the WIRED article, and I’m still not convinced. It’s a great marketing document, but very light on the technical side. I have little doubt about Agassi’s vision, commitment, intelligence, or personality.
However, at its core, it’s still just a solution to the problem of being able to refuel/recharge quickly, and on the fly. As a solution, it’s more complicated than necessary, and way more complicated than the competing solutions.
Boifuels would use the same infrastructure we already have, and allow for refueling an E-REV for long trips, and would approach carbon neutrality in time.
Hydrogen fuel cells would require infrastructure, but would essentially operate the same way as current vehicles do from a user standpoint, (pull up, fill up, and pull away) but would have the advantage of being a clean energy carrier, and mechanically more simple than an ICE. Bio-methanol could be used as a carbon neutral liquid fuel for on board hydrogen production; however storing pressurized hydrogen on board is still a viable option.
Quick charging a BEV is still a possible solution as well, though technically more difficult than most people think. Where there is a will, there is a way though, and I’m certain that in time the challenges could be overcome.
I don’t think that the Better Place solution is non-viable; it is just more complicated than necessary, and confines automotive designers to using a single battery design. Both are non-starters for me, and very fundamental problems with the overall approach.
May 13th, 2009 (10:26 am)#58 LauraM says “Taxis drive a lot of miles, so it would probably produce a net savings pretty quickly. It would reduce urban air pollution. They’re centrally controlled, so it would be easy to implement … But I also think EREV is a much better solution everywhere else.”
So let’s think about how would this compares to currently available bio-fuels or even something like a Prius. Keep in mind that, like batteries, bio-fuels aren’t foreign dependent but, unlike batteries and electricity, bio-fuels are almost by definition carbon neutral. Assume we have twenty taxis:
BATTERY SWAP TAXI DEPOT:
2 battery swap stations — $1,000,000.00
Inventory of 20 batteries — $160,000.00
Additional cost per taxi for battery — $200,000.00
Running cost per mile (@200 wh/mile) — 2 cents
BIO-FUEL STATION:
10 bio-fuel stations (50 gallons per pump) — $100,000.00
Additional cost per taxi for bio-fuel tank — $0
Running cost per mile (@25 mpg) — 4 cents
PRIUS TAXI:
5 gas pumps — $0 (already installed)
Additional costs per taxi for fuel tanks — $0
Running cost per mile (@ 50 mpg) — 4 cents
Leaving aside the higher maintenance costs of the battery swap equipment, the 20 taxis would have to go about 63 million miles before the battery swap breaks even. Is this remotely realistic?
When you start running the numbers swapping batteries doesn’t make sense for a taxi depot. Given that, as you suggest, this would be a best case situation for a battery swap, would a battery swap make sense anywhere?
May 13th, 2009 (10:30 am)This may work in Israel and in some US urban centers. There are definitely some advantages to this approach, such as lower cycle time, decreased car prices/warranty issues, clean power recharging, and concentration of batteries in one location with service professionals. The obvious disadvantages (infrastructure, current low-range, extra batteries, etc.) will probably outweigh them for some time. I think it may be an excellent solution for some limited cases. I don’t, however, see it working nationwide. I hope GM doesn’t get slammed if they don’t make their battery compatible with better place, because I think they should avoid this for now and make them how it makes sense for Voltec. I vacillate between thinking Better Place is a crazy, inefficient idea and thinking it *might* just work. However, this could definitely work for things like mail delivery vans, etc. The problem will be the extra cost of the other batteries. Until cost drops a lot it will be a problem having extra batteries sitting around.
May 13th, 2009 (10:33 am)kent beuchert #69:
The challenge isn’t batteries that can accept a quick charge, those are definitely on the horizon. The remaining challenge is with being able to conduct that much energy from the charging facility into the car’s battery in such a short period of time, in such a way that the average person will be able to perform this action safely.
This is not a small challenge.
May 13th, 2009 (10:33 am)Looks like Chrysler will be in bankruptcy for a minimum of two(2) years. GM your next. R U ready for 5 years of hell ?
BTW, I would not recommend buying a new vehicle from a bankrupt company. Ignore Warshington on this one.
May 13th, 2009 (10:39 am)Don C #71:
Biofuels still produce combusion by products. I noticed you didn’t respond to LauraM’s comment about air pollution. Nice dodge, or convenient omission, but either way air pollution is still a bit health problem in dense urban areas. Reducing or eliminating air pollution should be just as much a focus of future transportation technology solutions as climate change.
As a range extender fuel, most urban driving would likely be on battery power, so I’m not trying to completely slam biofuels. Just keeping perspective.
May 13th, 2009 (10:39 am)Looks like the Aussies will be fully electrified in 20 years !
That would be awesome, but I think it may take a little longer.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25474895-2702,00.html?from=public_rss
May 13th, 2009 (10:40 am)Statik @ numerous posts:
Ouch–this sounds a little like a hot button for you–LOL! You raise a lot of hard questions about the business model that quite frankly us outsiders would not be priviied to the info. to answer them, however as just another guy who delves into this EV stuff on a frequent basis, I think we have to remember a few things here.
1. Agassi is the ONLY person out there creating a conduit for mass adoption. Noone else has stuck their own neck out like this for the sake of EV’s. Isn’t our ultimate goal to get off the crude oil drug addiction?
2. Let’s say for argument’s sake, this would take off in the major urban centers of the U.S. (It is already getting underway in Southern CA and Ontario, Canada–is that near you Statik?). Nobody is a holding a gun to my head to buy a Better Place subscription. If I want a Volt sans electric battery subscription because that fits my situation, that’s what I’ll buy. And the battery, and the whole car will be Schmeltz owned. Cool. But, say I’m a guy with BP swap station handy plus the street charger posts littered all over down town and something like this would be cheaper? How could it be cheaper you ask? Well, a Volt without the battery pack should in theory be A LOT cheaper, because isn’t that what everyone always complains about, these dang expensive batteries? This lets someone else deal with the battery headache.
3. This is all on Agassi’s back to make this work and be a desirable format for people. If it fails, he fails. But EV’s still have a future regardless.
What are we so afraid of?
May 13th, 2009 (10:45 am)statik, #54 et al
Easy big fella. You nailed it at #8, so don’t get yourelf all upset, LOL.
Classic “pump and dump”, as the Sopranos boiler room boys used to say.
Shai Agassi? Elon Musk? Reminds me of the old poster of Richard Nixon with a 5 o’clock shadow and the caption “Would you buy a used car from this man?” Not me, baby.
Wake me up in 5 years and let’s see who of these promoters has survived. Fisker? Aptera? Zenn? Eestor? Hahahaha How about DeLorean? Bricklin?
May 13th, 2009 (10:45 am)It is a tiny challenge, all you need is a robotic plug that connects to the cars battery.. probably a couple of contacts under the car.. you just drive up to the charging spot and everything is automatic.. you stay in the car and listen to the radio.. the doors remain locked.
I dont see a lot of need for fast charging, most people will just plug in at home for an overnight charge.. a few stations on the major highways will take care of the whole nation.
…………………………..
#73 kgurnsey Says:
The remaining challenge is with being able to conduct that much energy from the charging facility into the car’s battery in such a short period of time, in such a way that the average person will be able to perform this action safely.
This is not a small challenge.
May 13th, 2009 (10:49 am)#16 Jason
If that’s GM’s plan, it’s a big mistake. Not only would I not even consider a car made in China if I had any choice in the matter, I wouldn’t buy any other GM car because I wouldn’t trust the quality (shared parts, etc.). (And, yes, I know that we already import parts from China, but it would have to get worse if they were importing entire cars. And as it is, if I could find a way to minimize Chinese parts in my car, I would.) And that includes the Volt. I’ll buy a Ford Fusion hybrid instead.
There have been too many safety scandals. And a reliable gen1 would be no guarantee of a reliable gen2. And, when the safety problems show up (which I think is inevitable), it will destroy any reputation that GM has left. (Not to mention eliminating the whole made in America thing, which right now is not only the best chance GM has to hold on to customers, but their only claim to the taxpayers money.)
I am not the only one who feels this way. I went into a toy shop to buy a present for my friend’s new baby. And I specifically asked for something not made in China. The woman at the desk told me that she’s not only heard it before a lot, but that she goes out of her way to find things not made in China because of customer demand.
But it’s difficult for her. The lack of toys not made in China forces people to buy Chinese toys. It is not difficult to find a car that’s not made in China. And people are a lot more aware of safety concerns when it comes to cars than they are with toys. (In spite of the lead paint scandals.) We expect toys to be safe, so many people don’t think about it. With cars, it’s a continuum. And almost everyone considers safety precautions when it comes to cars. And they research before buying.
I am really really hoping that this is a negotiating tactic with the UAW. Otherwise, I want my tax money back.
May 13th, 2009 (10:54 am)I think in 20 years you wont be able to buy a new gas powered car, but there will still be lots of older cars around.. eventually gas will get very expensive since so few people buy it.
………………………………………………
#76 Nicole Kidman Says:
Looks like the Aussies will be fully electrified in 20 years !
That would be awesome, but I think it may take a little longer.
May 13th, 2009 (10:54 am)Wow, most of you guy and gals have no vision it seems. Of course this isn’t the solution for everything, but it does have a place in the eletrification of cars. Do you really think the future is a 40 mile range with a lawnmower engine?
Is everyone on this site a GM employee? It would seem so the way you bash everything that is not your precious Volt.
May 13th, 2009 (10:55 am)#71 DonC
I agree that money-wise your taxi company would not want to do that, but if it get subsidized or forced by the government, it would not be only about money. It would be a way to get away from petro-gas and oil and it is about the emissions from the vehicles. Maybe throw some of those numbers into your Taxi calculations.
Updated:
Sorry… didnt see #75 kgurnsey already said that.
May 13th, 2009 (11:01 am)#82 JohnT
I am not a GM employee or even that excited about GM’s past/present/future, but I am a realist in that this idea does not seem like it would be viable for the US… maybe Taxi companies or small countries, but not US.
btw, are you just throwing out insults or provide something to back up what you say about the Volt (“40 mile range with a lawnmower engine”)?
May 13th, 2009 (11:06 am)As an Israeli I am very proud.
This can be charged at home.There is no ICE so after 200km about 130 mile you have recharge the battery or just swap it.
I am also believe in Chevy Volt.
May 13th, 2009 (11:12 am)This would be when you use the free battery swapping service:
You normally charge at home overnight.. then you drive to work in downtown and plug your car into the Agassi plugs lining the free Agassi parking spaces.. suddenly you get a call from home to go back.. thus you head to the FREE battery swap station near your job, your car automatically arranges the appointment.
The place is empty, since everyone charges their car at home.. you slide in and a couple of minutes later you drive off to home. You probably will be forced to watch a short ad while waiting for the thing to be done.
You would not even have to do this if the car had a decent 100 mile range.. but most BEV in the near future will not have that, not even the Volt. You were cheap and selected the Agassi 50 mile plan and the free toaster.
……………………………………
#71 DonC says:
When you start running the numbers swapping batteries doesn’t make sense for a taxi depot. Given that, as you suggest, this would be a best case situation for a battery swap, would a battery swap make sense anywhere?
May 13th, 2009 (11:12 am)Evidently Jiffy Lube has a venture capital arm & it’s saying they gotta diversify. lol
May 13th, 2009 (11:14 am)Herm #79:
It’s a bigger challenge than you may think. The devil is in the details. We will assume for the moment that you can move that much energy across a connection safely and cost effectively in an automotive application, at a competitive price, reliably for 10 years or more, and under extreme climates.
How does the robotic arm know where to plug in when vehicles are all different shapes and sizes? Currently cars have filler caps on either sides, and some (like Porsches) have them in the front fender. If you were to call for a standard location, putting aside negotiating such a standard industry and world wide, where do you put this standardized plugging spot? Front? Back? Sides? Different cars of different sizes will displace the connection spot relative to the arm and parking spot. Some where central, like on the front, in the middle, 2 feet off the ground? Ok, putting aside potential design issues and conflicts for different classes and sizes of vehicles, how do you ensure that the car is positioned correctly even if the arm knows where to go? How do you ensure that the arm/connector port is free of gunk and ice? A person can break out the ice scraper to chip away and get the filler door open, I doubt a robot arm prices at a competitive level for this application would be that sophisticated.
I’ve seen some interesting potential designs out there, but none that would work in the land of ice and snow, blowing sand, or anywhere where things get dirty and jammed.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, or that it’s not worth pursuing, just that it is still a sizeable challenge.
May 13th, 2009 (11:18 am)John T #82:
Who knew Elon Musk posted here!?! Can I get an e-autograph???
Seriously, that’s just an asinine, ignorant, statement, and has been debunked to death already.
Do a bit more recearch next time.
May 13th, 2009 (11:26 am)#71 DonC
First of all, the Prius is too small for a taxi. For taxi we need mid-size sedans (at minimum.) People are complaining about how small the Malibu and Camry hybrid taxis as it is. In a taxi, passengers sit in the back, and the front takes up quite a bit more room.
Second, you haven’t included the costs (and pollution) involved in manufacturing, transporting and storing the biofuels. (I’ve heard that they’re corrosive.) We already have an electric grid that can recharge the batteries. We could install solar panels to increase the amount available, but we wouldn’t have to.
Third, this is city driving. This involves a lot of stopping and starting. Electric cars can use regenerative braking. Biofuels do not. I’m sure that would impact those numbers. Unless you’re talking about a regular hybrid, but that would cost more money. (A plug-in hyrbid would be pointless since the taxis are always being used.)
Fourth, I agree with kgurnsey and ArkansasVolt about air pollution in the city. I, for one, think it’s worth spending extra money to reduce air pollution. Not just carbon emissions.
That said, you have a point about how long it would take to break even. That means you would need to expand the number of taxis to a station. Assuming you’re right about the 63 million miles, if you make it 50 taxis per station (vary the shifts, so that only 25 change off at a time), it breaks even in under 15 years. (300 miles per day x356 days a year, times 50 taxis = 5 million miles) I think that’s a reasonable number.
But I agree that this is a best case scenario, and it probably wouldn’t work anywhere else.
May 13th, 2009 (11:31 am)No way man. Too expensive, too complex, too unreliable. The future is in Voltec plus hydrogen fuel cell. The “gas station” should switch out your fuel cells.
May 13th, 2009 (11:43 am)LauraM #90:
It depends on what kind of biofuel you are talking about. Ethanol is corrosive, but butanol and pentanol are not. Biogasoline and biodiesel are not either, though biodiesel can do a number on some types of rubber.
I can see biofuels as an important near term solution. Some gen 2 and gen 3 biofuels are nearing commercialization, and can be rolled out quickly with existing infrastructure. They will soon be able to directly replace gasoline and diesel with no engine modifications, and thus will be an important renewable, carbon neutral fuel for range extenders and the legacy fleet of current vehicles that will be around for the next 20-30 years.
Biofuels are going to be important for the next couple decades, and along with BEVs and E-REVs, will go a long way towards reducing emissions (both climate change and air pollution), until a refuelable electric solution is mass produced.
May 13th, 2009 (11:46 am)The problem Project Better Place faces is standardization of battery pack design over time and across range classes.
1.) THE PROBLEM OF TIME
As battery packs evolve, they will enable higher energy density and corresponding reduced footprints for the same range class.
For instance, Volt Gen 1 has a ginormous T-shaped battery pack. GM has stated Volt Gen 2 will aim for the same range (40 miles) with reduced cost. This implies that if energy density improves from either chemistry or battery pack design, the battery pack volume & footprint will most likely be reduced. This will enable them to save weight and add a back middle seat. In the process, as the footprint changes, the design itself may change. For instance, will it still be a T-shape? How about a more compact cross shape? If the footprint really shrinks, it could even move to the hood or trunk.
2.) THE PROBLEM OF RANGE CLASSES
In addition, BEV’s and E-REV’s will come in a variety of range classes to accommodate price sensitivity, especially early in the lifecycle when batteries are really expensive (~$1k/kwh). Lower priced secondary commuter cars will have less total energy required relative to higher priced primary cars (e.g. station wagons, minivans, SUVs, etc.) for both range and weight reasons. These will inherently have different battery pack designs and accompanying footprints (assuming one chemistry is on an efficient frontier for price and performance).
Therefore, battery evolution and different range classes prevent practical application of the idea, let alone its’ economics.
The only solution to this problem would be to standardize battery pack MODULE design. This could scale up and down across different range classes at any particular point in time (e.g. 8 modules for 40 mile range, 16 modules for 80 mile range, etc.). It could also stay constant across time as battery chemistries evolve (e.g. 8 modules for 40 mile range in 2010, 6 modules for 40 mile range in 2012, etc.).
Of course, I personally believe that VC’s like Shai Agassi are more interested in getting strategic control of the battery pack supply chain due to its’ relative value (50% of new vehicles) than a practical solution. That’s probably why you wouldn’t see him at an SAE conference discussing practical standards like battery pack module design or charging port locations.
The awful truth is that car manufacturers will be reluctant to agree to these standards because they will lose control over proprietary pack design and resulting profits (~50% of future vehicles). As globalization impacts these manufacturers more and they’re forced to compete aggressively for normal car subsystems, this will be a last refuge for profitability they will not want to give away for free.
Enforcing some agreement on the need for battery pack MODULE standardization is actually something government regulation may be able to enforce. This would help consumers stay out of the dual claws of both proprietary manufacturer designs and monolithic PBP-like supply chains. This would actually enable a robust battery pack MODULE market, reduce long-term material costs, and enable battery pack module swapping competition (if even necessary long term).
May 13th, 2009 (11:47 am)Battery swapping feels like ignoring the advancement of technology. If batteries like those in the Tesla Roadster, that being Li-Ion with a 220 mile range and 3.5 hour 220v charging time, lasts roughly 6 years or something. (tesla’s batteries don’t last thing long because they fully discharge, i think). But if that’s now, what about 10 years from now? What about 15? 20? Battery swapping stations will appear as a fad when battery tech sucked, won’t they? I mean, when i’ve got a 500-1000 mile range EV in 10 or 15 years….i’m gonna trip over a plug SOMEWHERE in that time, would i still want to swap out the battery?
May 13th, 2009 (11:51 am)#92 kgurnsey
If biofuels can work that’s amazing. All I’d heard about was the numerous problems associated with ethanol. But this could be a solution much faster than electric cars (although there’s obviously still a need for them.)
Do these new biofuels come from food sources? And, how are they in terms of net energy balance?
May 13th, 2009 (11:52 am)With a 40 mile range I would be charging every night. I’m not sure going to a station like this – which is bound to be far away – provides any time savings vs plugging it in and leaving it plugged in overnight. How much “time” am I really saving?
May 13th, 2009 (12:01 pm)# 94 Mike D
“Battery swapping feels like ignoring the advancement of technology. If batteries like those in the Tesla Roadster, that being Li-Ion with a 220 mile range and 3.5 hour 220v charging time, lasts roughly 6 years or something. (tesla’s batteries don’t last thing long because they fully discharge, i think). But if that’s now, what about 10 years from now?”
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Build them to break one more of the links that keeps a lot of people addicted to gas. Use them for 5 or ten years until new technology obsolesces them. Then convert them into car washes, micro museums, Quickie Marts, personal finance centers, daycare, doggie washes, yoga for seniors or whatever, who cares, just get them in and get more people the option of getting off gasoline! Everybody needs to stop fighting the oil companies battles for them.
May 13th, 2009 (12:08 pm)dc #96
With a 40 mile range I would be charging every night. I’m not sure going to a station like this – which is bound to be far away – provides any time savings vs plugging it in and leaving it plugged in overnight. How much “time” am I really saving?
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You’re absolutely right you don’t save any time, you still plug in at night. Also they want to add renewable generated power to where you plug in at work. The swapping is only for the day when you realize “oops I have to drive another 90 miles today to give this presentation my boss forced on me”
May 13th, 2009 (12:14 pm)Admittedly, I didn’t read all 95+ posts, but the article did a lousy job of explaining that the whole deal is a subscription. Just like your cell phone. Give ‘em the phone and charge for the service. I’m not saying it’s a GOOD idea (I don’t think it is), but it’s not getting a fair hearing here (IMO),
Above all:
LJGTVWOTR!!!
Be well,
Tag
May 13th, 2009 (12:14 pm)Battery exchange is the only way you can extend the range of BEV without using gas or other liquid fuel. Overnight charge is ok for short daily commute ranges but to quickly charge a 100 kWh battery is impossible.
As batteries become smaller exchanging them should only get easier. The idea is that you dont HAVE to swap the battery but you rather have an OPTION to do it instead of burning fuel and carrying a complete second drivetrain around all the time (like in a hybrid).
May 13th, 2009 (12:17 pm)36 BIllR
Moving the batteries around can all be automated. Any type of ASRS would work. The catch is, you still need someone that is capable of “fixing” the system if something goes wrong. I love automation, but i dont think this is the place for it. Just hire a couple minimum wage guys to swap a battery out in 20 seconds, like a pit crew at NASCAR.
May 13th, 2009 (12:24 pm)If I was Ford building Focus EV, that would be the direction to go. Very few people will actually want to own a $25K car with $10K worth or batteries which will become outdated in 3 years. I personally would rather buy a car for 15K and just pay for the energy use without owing the battery, let the company worry about the battery problems and have them replaced every couple of years as the new tech comes just like the new cell phone I’ am getting for free every two years. Ford could even swap the batteries at their dealers and service stations – no new infrastructure needed till the numbers build up.
May 13th, 2009 (12:25 pm)Slightly off topic, but there’s a good opinion article below about energy usage and production in the US. Also touches on how much more efficient BEV’s are compared with Hydrogen fuel cells.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/05/13/mackay.energy/index.html
May 13th, 2009 (12:34 pm)statik #42 I see EVs as setting out to accomplish. INDEPENDENCE.
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I see EV’s exactly the same way and in Southern California I can see myself using solar and never paying for power again!
But I also see Project Better Place as the exact opposite as you do. If I could project a car company selling me An EV without their double capacity format to meet warranty/liability needs then I could see sourcing batteries myself to my own standards. And hehehe, if that doesn’t work out I can contract with PBP until maybe a used pack comes on the market I can install myself.
No range anxiety because I can swap. Power generated from renewables in convenient chargers at stores and at work. Or buy a used pack and charge it with solar electrons from a nuke plant 93 million miles outboard. That’s independence, choices that work when and how I need them.
May 13th, 2009 (12:34 pm)Long post to concerns so here it goes…
Extreme climates – Very Valid, no answer other than don’t do it.
Too expensive – So is the Volt, is that stopping us?
Too complex – So is the Volt, is that stopping us?
Maybe for Taxi – See LauraM on this.
How do they ensure a battery for everyone that arrives? – Stock some? Duh…low volume now more later.
How many filled batteries will they have to have in reserve in addition to those recovered and recharged batteries? – As long as they have at least 20 in stock full of charge all they will need to do is “Cycle” the stock as customers come in. Log a trend and stock accordingly.
Will there be regular deliveries from battery trucks? – I’m sure there will be some but not many as batteries are…………ready…………..reusable/rechargeable……duh.
Will this be a big VHS vs Beta fight trying to establish not only a battery format and chemistry standard but also shape and configuration? – No. Why? because @ozonelevel 6 explained well. It most likely will not be in the US
Automation and driver inaccuracy – There are ways around that. Haven’t you ever seen how Intel stitches each CPU they mfgr. They are accurate down to the .001mm. I have worked on mechanical stepper motors with opto sensors and it ia more than achievable, even with hobbygrade optic sensors and stepper motors. You can dynamically calibrate your “Zero” reference.
Bad Cell. – Each back runs through it’s own diagnostic, at least it should, during charging and balances. Anything out of the norm should be caught by then. If you cant trust any technology to do this than you can’t trust the Volt.
@ozonelevel 6
“By the time this infrastructure would be in place, battery technology will have evolved to make battery swapping a solution looking for a problem.”
Nailed right right on the head!!!
OK, my oppinoin is that this will work for them. Here in the US, there will be so many different form factors and range of Operating voltages that it makes this not viable. I said it before and I’ll say it again, we need a battery standard. A standard size/geometry and voltage. Right now, there are ranges from 277VDC to 400VDC for OEM’rs and the DIY’rs range from 72VDC to 220VDC. Not a good mix, however, doing a DC step down is easier than trying a “Buck Boost” from a lower volatge source.
That said, we need a standard. The “T” package is out of the question which will leave the Volt out of whatever is decided.
Now for all who say “when batteries can fast charge….”, well, they can already. It’s just that we need to design the charging cable for a 100lb 36-26-36 5’5″ Soccer mom to do it. As it stands to fast charge current lipo’s at 2C we need at least 100KW conduit/conductor capability, light weight for Soccer mom to do it.
May 13th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Battery swapping my ass!!!
this idea is the product of RANGE ANXIETY!!!
VOLT is the solution because gasoline stations are everywhere…u don’t need to swap ur battery to drive longer miles..thats EREV is all about…lets face the fact that oil companies will stay for a couple of decades more or forever you know why? instead of oil, they will sell Algae fuel using their existing gasoline stations!!!…thats my friend is our future…
the VOLT is the future…now i understand why Volt has an EFLEX ICE for future fuel from algae…
Go GM, go VOLT!! mwahhhhh! mwahhh!
May 13th, 2009 (12:44 pm)@k-dawg 101
Moving the batteries around can all be automated. Any type of ASRS would work. The catch is, you still need someone that is capable of “fixing” the system if something goes wrong. I love automation, but i dont think this is the place for it. Just hire a couple minimum wage guys to swap a battery out in 20 seconds, like a pit crew at NASCAR.
That is an awesome idea. This is something high school students can do for the physical swap and college stundents can maintain the rest. This opens up jobs. However, I would design the batt pack to have rollers/wheels that would extrude (like ambulance gurnies) as they are pulled out. Don’t want to hurt the kids backs.
May 13th, 2009 (12:44 pm)#105
CaptJackSparrow “How do they ensure a battery for everyone that arrives”
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They have written a lot about this, but nobody wants to wade through all that I suppose. To put it briefly, It’s the network!
Tell your car what it’s gotta do and the network tells you where you can plug in or if you don’t have time to plug in uses GPS to put the most convenient swapping station onto your route.
May 13th, 2009 (12:48 pm)The Malibu has 112.8 cu ft of interior volume, the Prius has 115.3 cu ft. EPA says to qualify for midsize it has to range from 110-119 cu ft. The Prius is a bigger car.. amazing aint it?
I also think Toyota should have stretched the Prius a couple of inches, and put that in the rear leg room… just for taxi duties. I think the problem arises when they install a driver shield on the taxi.
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#90 LauraM Says:
First of all, the Prius is too small for a taxi. For taxi we need mid-size sedans (at minimum.) People are complaining about how small the Malibu and Camry hybrid taxis as it is.
May 13th, 2009 (12:53 pm)@Herm 109
The Malibu has 112.8 cu ft of interior volume, the Prius has 115.3 cu ft. EPA says to qualify for midsize it has to range from 110-119 cu ft. The Prius is a bigger car.. amazing aint it?
I also think Toyota should have stretched the Prius a couple of inches, and put that in the rear leg room… just for taxi duties. I think the problem arises when they install a driver shield on the taxi.
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#90 LauraM Says:
First of all, the Prius is too small for a taxi. For taxi we need mid-size sedans (at minimum.) People are complaining about how small the Malibu and Camry hybrid taxis as it is.
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Or maybe we should eat less and lose weight. That’s why Disney had to retrofit “Small World”.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2007/11/its-a-fat-world/
May 13th, 2009 (12:57 pm)#101 k-dawg
Actually, the automated version would work better for taxis. (I’m assuming it’s faster?) Since all the swapping stations would be in the same place, it would be cheaper to hire a couple of maintenance people to keep them working then the minimum wage guys.
May 13th, 2009 (1:01 pm)“#90 LauraM Says:
First of all, the Prius is too small for a taxi. For taxi we need mid-size sedans (at minimum.) ”
There are a ton of Prius taxis in my city. One whole cab company has nothing but Priuses and they are always super busy.
May 13th, 2009 (1:02 pm)The more I see on this battery swap and charge stations the more upset I get with this guy .
A point most people seem to be skipping is the value of the “easily removed battery” . Don’t you think that the criminal mind is going to quickly realize that in a couple of minutes that they can remove the battery from certain electric cars and sell them for a few thousand dollars .
There will be a market for “used batteries” as soon as the first one hits the road , don’t kid yourself other people are aware of the high cost of the batteries and know that they can make quick money by selling stolen ones too . STUPID STUPID IDEA .
Can you imagine coming out in the morning to go to work and you get a check battery light come on only to find that your battery was stolen while you were sleeping .
May 13th, 2009 (1:06 pm)#109 Herm
They should have made the Prius taxi-compatible if possible. There would certainly have been a market for it.
That said, the cab drivers I spoke to all wanted a Ford. Apparently, the Ford Crown Victorias hold up the best. Ford hasn’t come out with a hybrid taxi yet (other than the Escape, but lots of people don’t like the SUV cabs), but apparently, it’s coming soon. My guess is that its the Ford Fusion.
May 13th, 2009 (1:20 pm)#110 CaptJackSparrow
I weigh 125 pounds, and I work out regularly. I had no problems fitting into the back of the Malibu hybrid, but I can’t imagine anything smaller.
#112 Bryant
Really? Which city?
I just did a google search, and the New York times article said the Prius was approved for taxi service in New York. So, maybe it just wasn’t available becuase of the hybrid shortage. So, I was mistaken.
That said, if there is less legroom than the Malibu, I don’t think people will be too happy about it. Maybe your city has a different cab set-up so that the back isn’t as small.
May 13th, 2009 (1:21 pm)@Keith 113
You just gave me a good idea. When my pack is dead, I can go swap mine with my neighbors!!!!
That is of course if it’s “User serviceable”
May 13th, 2009 (1:24 pm)#75 kgurnsey, #83 ArkansasVolt, #90 LauraM
Bio-fuels compare well to batteries on a pollution scale. To start with, bio-fuels are not big polluters. With bio-fuels you reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 85% and the other emissions are bio-degradable. Also keep in mind that taxis in general are not big polluters for the simple fact that 90% of the pollution is generated at the start before the converter warms up and taxis run hot most of the time. Also bio-fuels are carbon neutral because any CO2 released has been taken out during production.
On the other side, electric cars are not pollution free. They run on electricity generated by a variety of sources, some quite dirty. Plus batteries require a lot of extractive minerals and at the end of the day they are nasty little chemical factories. If you compared the two it would be unlikely that electric cars would be clear pollution winners.
I also had a specific type of bio-fuel in mind, which is the microfueler that runs on sugar and yeast waste from existing processes. It was on my mind since there was a presentation on it but there are probably others out there like it. (http://www.microfueler.com/) What was intriguing was the low price of the machine and the very low cost per gallon of the bio-fuel.
Of course the efueler doesn’t scale because there isn’t a limitless supply of the raw product. For that we’ll probably need some synthetic process which converts sunlight to fuel directly. But the point I was making is that battery swapping makes no economic sense because both the batteries and the equipment to swap the batteries cost too much. You can demonstrate this for yourselves by simply substituting a 25 mpg car and, $2/gallon or even $4/gallon gasoline. When you run the numbers you’ll conclude that any taxi company trying to use battery swapping will quickly go out of business. It’s just too expensive to be practical. And since the taxis are a best case scenario that gives you some idea of how viable the idea is from an economic perspective, assuming that there are no technical issues.
SIDENOTE: LauraM — On the issue of car size and the preference for the Ford Crown Victoria’s, that car will run on E100. Vehicles that run on E100 tend to be more work oriented — pickup trucks and vans — and the others are usually large — Escalades and so forth. The Crown Vic is one of the smaller ones.
May 13th, 2009 (1:31 pm)@DonC 117
“To start with, bio-fuels are not big polluters.”
I’m not being sarcastic in any way so here goes….
Oh yeah, per the cash for clunkers, my Saturn doesn’t qualify….WTF man?
If biofuels are not polluters, then when I go do my Smog test, theoretically as you state, I should pass with flying colors right?
I ask because my 12yr old Saturn needs to get smog checked and I am afraid it will fail. I will do the typical change oil and oil filter and air filter as well as O2 Sensor but that’s the best I can do myself.
Any other thing I might be able to do? Will puttin E85 do anything for me?
lol….yeah, being a little selfish here…..
May 13th, 2009 (1:32 pm)I can tell you Boston has a bunch of Prius and Camry hybrid taxis.
May 13th, 2009 (1:37 pm)@V=IR 119
San Francisco has Ford Hybrid Escape’s. They swear to them to. The co said they save a bunch of $$$ on gas. Sounds about right because the typical speed there is about 40mph, even on the stupid freeway.
May 13th, 2009 (1:53 pm)#113
Keith
There will be a market for “used batteries” as soon as the first one hits the road , don’t kid yourself other people are aware of the high cost of the batteries and know that they can make quick money by selling stolen ones too . STUPID STUPID IDEA .
___________________
What’s behind your front door is more valuable than a battery pack and often lighter to carry away. Crazy little thing was invented called locks.
May 13th, 2009 (1:55 pm)Statik #42:
Wanted to apologize for one of my comments in post #24 as after re-reading it, was probably taken as an offense. I said:
“Bottom line, I give him credit and wish him well with this endeavour. How many people do we know who are more than happy to bitch and complain about how bad everything is, but then have nothing to offer when asked how it can be improved? Maybe we look at people like that everyday in the mirror as well?”
When I wrote that, I was truthfully thinking of myself. I wasn’t intending that as an insult to you or to fling around on a topic that is fairly charged here. Just wanted to make that clear and get that off my chest. Sorry man.
May 13th, 2009 (1:56 pm)If people want to buy a BEV without the battery pack, and then pay a monthly fee to have access to a pack, and then have to drive every day or so to have the pack changed out, who are we to tell them they are wrong?
I would never consider this option, but that is just me…..
Unless the range is at least 200 miles, I would never consider a pure BEV as my main vehicle either.
That is why I consider the Volt design to be the best at this time, and where I am willing to spend my money. Will it still be the best in 2025? I really doubt it. But for right now, it will deliver what I require to cut my gasoline consumption by well over 90%. If I can do a solar array on the roof that makes sense, then it is that much better.
The next 19 months until Nov, 2010 is looking farther and farther away…..
May 13th, 2009 (1:57 pm)Prius (2010)
Head room Front 38.6
Head room Rear 37.6
Shoulder room Front 54.9
Shoulder room Rear 53.1
Leg room Front 42.5
Leg room Rear 36.0
Hip room Front 52.7
Hip room Rear 51.2
Cargo Volume 21.6 ft^3
Malibu (2009 Hybrid)
Head room Front 39.4
Head room Rear 37.2
Shoulder room Front 55.9
Shoulder room Rear 53.9
Leg room Front 42.2
Leg room Rear 37.6
Hip room Front 53.0
Hip room Rear 52.1
Cargo Volume 13.3 ft^3
Look like the Malibu has more room inside, but the Prius has more luggage space. The Malibu fuel tank is 4 gallons bigger.
May 13th, 2009 (1:57 pm)#119 V=IR/ #120 CaptJackSparrow
I guess my information is a little bit too NYC centric. I don’t know why we don’t have Prius cabs. And I can tell you that they’re rare. And more than one driver told me that it wasn’t an option. Do you have partitions in Boston?
We also have the Ford Hybrid Escape’s. We’ve had them for a while. I’m not sure how the company feels about them. I know they contested Mayor Bloomberg’s ruling requiring all new taxis to be hybrids. And won.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/judge-blocks-hybrid-taxi-requirement/
May 13th, 2009 (2:02 pm)Schmeltz Says: #77
1. Agassi is the ONLY person out there creating a conduit for mass adoption. No one else has stuck their own neck out like this for the sake of EVs. Isn’t our ultimate goal to get off the crude oil drug addiction?
What are we so afraid of?
It is not that “we” are afraid of anything , it is just is that “we” are smart enough to know that “we” would be ripped off on everything associated with such a scheme .
“we” dont like the idea of paying $20.00 for one dollars worth of electricity from PBP and “we” dont like the idea of stopping battery development in its early stage either .
Keep these silly ideas in Israel where they belong thank you .
You my friend , are not part of “WE” , you are an outsider .
May 13th, 2009 (2:02 pm)A Prius or Escape as a taxi is too expensive, my cousin the taxi driver says all they can afford are used cars off the auction lot.
Perhaps in cities like NY that require hybrids for taxis.
May 13th, 2009 (2:17 pm)LauraM #95
Part of the idea behind gen 2 and gen 3 biofuels is to move away from food sources to much higher yield sources that do not interfere with the food market. Algae are a very promising example.
New energy balance depends on your source, and your conversion process. Corn to ethanol is notoriously bad, but algae to biodiesel using fungi or bacteria can be very efficient.
DonC #117
Your points are well taken, though I would disagree on some of the more subtle aspects.
Pollution does not biodegrade in your lungs. As for the 85% reduction in emissions statement, that is a gross oversimplification. The actual emissions are dependant on the type of biofuel, and the engine used to burn it. Also, biodiesel emissions change depending on what type of oil is used to produce it, and I would expect the same is true for other biofuels. The constituents of the emissions are different depending on the biofuel, and it’s not always an across the board reduction. Reductions of some chemicals are matched by increased in others. It’s not that simple, and the reductions aren’t necessarily that extreme in all, if any, cases.
Pollution at the point of use and pollution at the point of generation or recycling /disposal are not equivalent. Burning biofuels for power in the same place that people breathe is not the same as generating contained or recyclable waste from batteries. Combustion byproducts emitted in dense urban areas is also worse than equivalent combustion by products emitted from a power plant out in the middle of nowhere. For the same amount of pollutants emitted, one gives people asthma, while the other is diluted to the point of negligibility, before it ever reaches anyone’s lungs.
Your point regarding taxis running at operating temperature for effective emissions controls is a fair one, though my argument is more generalized. Biofuels for general transportation needs are a good intermediate step, but not a final solution.
May 13th, 2009 (2:18 pm)#125 LauraM
I guess my information is a little bit too NYC centric. I don’t know why we don’t have Prius cabs. And I can tell you that they’re rare. And more than one driver told me that it wasn’t an option. Do you have partitions in Boston?
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Haven’t been in a Prius cab, but I will give a look next time I see one.
May 13th, 2009 (2:21 pm)#126
Keith Says:
“You my friend , are not part of “WE” , you are an outsider”
________________
WTH. I thought you had some valid points until that little doozy. Although I don’t like being beholden to a monopoly and can’t say where the technology will go in this case, since I’m a little slow on the last part, care to splin’ it to me.
May 13th, 2009 (2:21 pm)Nuclearboy says:
However, you do not routinely move very heavy and large objects around without problems. They will drop, get jammed, fall off, etc. etc. Thats the way things work in the real world where tolerances are not kept and things get bent, rusted, and stuck.
Agreed. This is a solution looking for a problem. It might make since for a local delivery company or say, the U.S. Postal service, but it makes no since for private vehicles where cars are of different sizes, different models, different model years and, most importantly, vastly different states of (dis)repair.
May 13th, 2009 (2:27 pm)#67:
“Sounds like a genius way to retrofit all those someday useless Jiffy-Lube Oil-Change locations.”
These would also make good quick charge stations (out of the weather bays over pits which could hold large scale sodium-sulfur-or-similar batteries to serve as a source for the increased current).
As others have pointed out, a 40 second battery swap-cycle is meaningless when you consider the line you’d have to wait in to get to the expensive swap-station. It makes a much-less expensive (though longer cycle) ‘quick’ charge seem almost reasonable.
The swap technology demonstration merely shows how easily high-current connectors could be attached, “hands off style,” from underneath a car.
I predict that battery swapping will be, at best, a niche application with a questionable future beyond 2030.
May 13th, 2009 (2:32 pm)@V=IR 129
lol…..
I finally actually “read” your name/handle…
OHM’s Law. Voltage = (I) Current * (R)Resistance
I couldn’t figure out how to put Pathagorean’s Therom so I opted for CaptJackSparrow and a mug of beer……lol
May 13th, 2009 (2:35 pm)I am coming on-line late and have not had time to read what everyone has said. The mechanics of the battery swapping device I don’t doubt. What I do doubt is the cost for swapping out the battery and how are you going to know how many batteries each station has to keep available. This is the big problem, as far as I can see. The cost of swapping out the battery will be either good or bad. Either consumers will consider it economically feasible or it will prove to be too costly. Going through the process is just like going through a car wash except you don’t move forward any until the process is completed. I just have my doubts about this whole swapping out the battery thing. I know I will not be investing any money in one anytime soon.
May 13th, 2009 (2:36 pm)Okay, I just watched the little video demonstration:
Lets try this in the REAL world.
In the REAL world, drivers will miss the rails for the tires and either wind up with the wheels left or right of the guides. I have seen it happen many times at car washes and it usually gets ugly when the car gets wedged against the washing rollers or control arms.
In the REAL world, somebody is gonna jerk the wheels when the car is over the track bay causing it to drop on the frame, or worse, fall into the battery bay. I have seen this happen too, at a quick oil change place.
In the REAL world, somebody will either park too far forward or too far back for the lift plate to line up with the docking clamps on the car. I have seen something like that happen at a car wash where a sensor tells the driver to “STOP” when they are in the proper position. In this situation that I saw, the driver went past the stop sensor so fast it didn’t have time to flash red. I was directly behind her waiting my turn and she was fiddle f___ing around trying to get out of the car so she can whine to the gas station attendant. She couldn’t get out of the car because the washing roller was blocking the door. It was a real cluster.
You will have to have attendants at the chaging station drive the customer’s car into the bay otherwise it’s gonna get very ugly!
May 13th, 2009 (2:40 pm)Statik,
As soon as I read this post and few comments, an alarm bell went off inside my head. I was going to type a long post but after reading over your posts, didn’t feel the need to. I agree with you 100%.
People, we have a great chance here to gain true energy independence, not only as a nation but as individuals. No longer are we required to feed the greed of big oil corporations with our hard earned money. Plus, for a casual green people like myself, we have a chance to make sure the world starts getting cleaner on our watch. Why would I put the yoke of big corporations around my neck again? For those of you who are saying that this is good & that this guy is pioneering this whole thing, think about it. The infrastructure is already here for EVs, provided we charge at night. Sure, if you need more ALL-ev range than 40 miles, you might think this is one way but the business model from consumer & engineering point of view seems implausible. What this is attempt to blow smoke, to create public perception that we need this sort of infrastructure so that they can charge us for all those wonderful fees that Statik has listed (I’m sure there’ll be more), when in fact the infrastructure is here already. Shame on you, Shai Agassi.
May 13th, 2009 (2:41 pm)Just a reminder that between the EV1 and the Volt, here is the difference in size of the battery
http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/14/gm-may-develop-other-than-t-shaped-lithium-ion-battery-packs/
EV1 : 1200 pounds battery; Volt : 400 pounds. Now, this happened in 10 years without much research in this field that was sort of abandoned. I’m not even mentioning the difference in capacity. It reminds me of the development curve in computers. They get smaller and more powerful every year.
What will be the size of a battery pack in 10 years?
May 13th, 2009 (2:47 pm)@solo 135
We were in Disnelyand this past summer and we drove in “Autopia”. There are these things in the middle of the track called guide rails. It does so well my 8yr old was able to drive. Now if that doesn’t work for drivers, they shouldn’t be driving. I am sure there will be something like that for it and they just did not show it because it would hinder the views but I do not believe it is a “Final Product”. Kind of like if someone were to slam the Volt from just looking at or test driving the Mule because of how it performs or looks. Sounds wrong huh?
May 13th, 2009 (2:47 pm)#137 Tall Pete
“What will be the size of a battery pack in 10 years?”
Hopefully, approaching the size of our current lead-acid car batteries.
May 13th, 2009 (2:49 pm)Update : actually, the EV1 battery was 18.7 to 26.4 kw depending on the version so they were more powerful than the 16 kw of the Volt.
Still, it’s the third in weight for almost the same energy capacity as the first EV1.
May 13th, 2009 (3:00 pm)#122 Schmeltz said:
Statik #42, Wanted to apologize for one of my comments in post #24 as after re-reading it, was probably taken as an offense. I said:
“Bottom line, I give him credit and wish him well with this endeavour. How many people do we know who are more than happy to bitch and complain about how bad everything is, but then have nothing to offer when asked how it can be improved? Maybe we look at people like that everyday in the mirror as well?”
When I wrote that, I was truthfully thinking of myself. I wasn’t intending that as an insult to you or to fling around on a topic that is fairly charged here. Just wanted to make that clear and get that off my chest. Sorry man.
—————-
I really didn’t think you insulting me, I just came back it a little stronger than normal because, well…the subject drives me a little loopy.
No need to apologize at all, we are cool.
/group hug
May 13th, 2009 (3:04 pm)#125 LauraM said:
I guess my information is a little bit too NYC centric. I don’t know why we don’t have Prius cabs. And I can tell you that they’re rare. And more than one driver told me that it wasn’t an option. Do you have partitions in Boston?
We also have the Ford Hybrid Escape’s. We’ve had them for a while. I’m not sure how the company feels about them. I know they contested Mayor Bloomberg’s ruling requiring all new taxis to be hybrids. And won.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/judge-blocks-hybrid-taxi-requirement/
—————–
This might just be me, but I would patron the taxi cab company that ran Prius’…or if I saw five cabs in front of Waldorf and one was a hybrid…I’d take that one.
/might be a ‘green’ market/angle in that…dunno
==========================
==========================
#136 Sam Y said:
As soon as I read this post and few comments, an alarm bell went off inside my head. I was going to type a long post but after reading over your posts, didn’t feel the need to. I agree with you 100%.
People, we have a great chance here to gain true energy independence, not only as a nation but as individuals. No longer are we required to feed the greed of big oil corporations with our hard earned money. Plus, for a casual green people like myself, we have a chance to make sure the world starts getting cleaner on our watch.
———–
I think you are coming at it more from my angle. For my own personal choice. I want a full EV, that I can plug into my wall outlet, that is powered by solar on my roof/backyard. Any thought there might be a chance of corporate/government involvement that could limited my options by installing a monopolistic system (and tax/revenue stream it), that might also limit my ability to outright purchase a full EV (car+battery) and maintain and power it 100% myself…annoys and frightens me.
May 13th, 2009 (3:09 pm)I have to agree with Statik (#42) about this being just another way to keep the vehicle owner tied to something. I can say the same thing about hydrogen fuel and bio-fuels. We are much more independent when we can generate our own power to charge our electric vehicles. Given that we don’t all have that capability yet and may never have it, charging our vehicles from the power grid is the second best choice for fuel independence. I like the idea of removing dependence from foreign oil. I don’t like replacing it with another source that requires us to purchase our “fuel” from them. I am with you, Statik. I believe you were correct when you said you believed that many others on this site would agree with you on this.
May 13th, 2009 (3:10 pm)#137 Tall Pete
“What will be the size of a battery pack in 10 years?”
=================
Forget the battery pack. I want Mr. Fusion scaled down to car size!!!
http://gizmodo.com/234032/
May 13th, 2009 (3:37 pm)This might work for fleet operators, taxi, or delivery vehicles, but not for MANY drivers with countless different power/distance/time needs. When I pull into my gas station there are 8-12 pumps for me to pick from, but this video shows ONE car being serviced. Are they planning on installing 8-12 battery change stations at each local, or a “Time until battery exchange lane open” sign? Please let’s just all forget this posting and move on! Charging @ home is the way to go period!
Lyle, next topic please…
GO EV!
May 13th, 2009 (3:41 pm)Jim I @144
Forget the battery pack. I want Mr. Fusion scaled down to car size!!!
—————————————————————————————————————-
Well, if they have enough money for research, who knows ? We’ll get there, especially if the military keeps pouring money into that kind of ‘strategic’ invention…
May 13th, 2009 (3:44 pm)______________________________________________________
That is a very cool battery changing robotic contraption!
I would be surprised to see the battery swap concept get traction beyond the demonstration stage because battery technology has become a fast moving target.
Things I like about battery SWAP:
1) Industry standard battery = manufacturing economy of scale = lower battery cost.
2) Quick fuel up.
3) Would make it possible for the electric utility companies (a national organization of utility companies) to own the batteries and amortize the cost of the battery vis-à-vis the battery re-charge fee.
Questions I have about battery SWAP:
1) How to store those batteries on-site (hundreds/thousands of batteries per site location)?
2) How to charge those batteries on-site (Mega Massive power suck per each site)?
3) Will an industry standard battery slow down or speed up inovative battery R&D?
4) Building a dry underground warehouse storage/swap plant for EV batteries would be VERY expensive; way higher than burring gas tanks underground…10X or more than the $500,000/site as aobve quoted. The $500,000 may cover the hardware cost of the cool robotic swapper gizmo but $500,000 does not even get the hole dug construction wise. Is that infrastructure cost feasible?
_____________________________________________________
May 13th, 2009 (3:49 pm)Back to the Jingle…..
Short an Sweet and sung by all people of race, color, creed and lifestyles (OK PR injection), US geographic location and must have kids….
This Volt is your Volt, this Volt is my Volt
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This Volt was made for you and me……
[Cue waving US Flag fade in across the screeen....]
May 13th, 2009 (3:54 pm)______________________________________________________
Question:
So what is the answer for EV quick charge?
My Answer (you heard it here first!):
Fuel Stations w/ Single Plug Parallel Channel Chargers (4 X 220V = 880V = 10 minute charge @ 70%). The charging cable and plug would have 4 220V channels rather than a single +- channel. Existing fuel stations could over an extended transition time have both traditional gas pumps and also electric charge stands that look similar and work similar (credit card payment transation wise) to conventional gas pumps. Fuel stations would offer Gas/Diesel/Electric.
The EV would switch to parallel charging (4 independent charging channels/controllers) when fueling at these quick charge stations. EV owners could also upgrade their home charger to Parallel Channel Chargers.There are several technical benefits beyond quick charge time for dividing the charging into four independent channels.
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Indpendence!
______________________________________________________
May 13th, 2009 (3:57 pm)______________________________________________________
Here is an article worth reading regarding alternative energy I came across today on CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/05/13/mackay.energy/index.html
______________________________________________________
Woops…I see #103 already posted my above CNN link…
May 13th, 2009 (4:11 pm)HEY, IT’S LATE IN THE THREAD!
DON’T SKIP OVER ME!
ACTUAL VOLT RELATED NEWNESS! (how rare)
Ok, I have your attention. We now have at the very least, another ‘shell’ prototype Volt…because this was let slip in the media releases from the government stooges latest visit from last friday(yes…that is their official title-stooges).
There is no hard shot of it, but you can see it in the foreground….and it is black. I’ve not seen any other completed shell mockups partial or complete in this color.
Enjoy:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/MontgomeryGMDesign03.jpg?download=021285
So what is it? And why haven’t we ever seen it? We keep seeing that lonely, your grandma’s favorite ‘robin’s egg’ blue color, one-off all the time.
And their is a shot of the Converj too…but it isn’t real, so who cares:
http://us.tnpv.net/2009/GMC200905/GMC2009050858275_PV.jpg
May 13th, 2009 (4:29 pm)Cool idea, but $500,000 just to build the plant? How would any manufacture make money off that unless they charged like crazy for the replacement?
That would never work in the USA because our country is WAYYY too big. I’m convinced we would require over 1,000 stations to meet demands so that ALL drivers are within a reasonable distance to one and so that the lines aren’t 20-cars long.
That calculates to $500M for all the stations, not to mention servicing/charging all the discharged packs…
May 13th, 2009 (4:30 pm)#118 CaptainJackSparrow says “If biofuels are not polluters, then when I go do my Smog test, theoretically as you state, I should pass with flying colors right?”
Well if you put E100 in a vehicle isn’t designed for E85 you’ll ruin the car. So maybe there are other considerations.
Also note that E100 made from corn is quite different than E100 from sugar. Sugar based E100, which is what I’ve been referencing, gives off far less pollution.
Having said that, fuel from biomass biomass involves combustion that produces Sulphur Dioxide (SO2), Nitrogen Oxide (NOX) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2), but in quantities far less than those emitted by gas engines (and coal plants for that matter).
So if your car can handle E100 I’d go for it.
May 13th, 2009 (4:39 pm)Boy are you asking for all sorts of trouble here. While a fork lift is essentially what is happening here, the repeated movement-stresses to all those internal cells, solder joints, etc, are just going to get weaker and weaker with every mechanical jolt.
The idea is also dangerous from the standpoint of the repeated movements of all the main-connector contact surfaces and possibly movements of wire strands within terminal lugs which only get weaker with every single connect-disconnect.
Since the basic idea is a well-automated forklift, I fail to see the value of what the entire business setup cost is to a prospective businessperson, even before we get to the false economies of how much energy to run the facility and the forklift in relation to the energy in merely charging the pack at your residence.
Again, I think it a very VERY dangerous and risky idea for a battery array to be repeatedly subjected to mechanical-inertial forces of the handling of a very large number of cells, and, all of the vast number of connections within all types of EV, BEV, EREV, arrays.
Also, the “discount battery market” (as a model for how some businesses choose to operate) , as most of us know, is NOT the greatest place regarding battery replacement specifications, durability, and integrity, compared to an OEM-quality supplier. This idea of battery swapping is subject to the most horrendous possible fraud, because your very highly professionally-built pack from GM could be replaced with something so awful, I would consider it an outright act of
****************
FRAUD
***************
where there would be an implied representation to the customer that the battery that would be installed is just not some really cheap, cheap, cheap, knock-off,
and,
your terrific GM original equipment battery, in my professional opinion as an ASE-Examined L-1 Advanced Systems Educator, would no longer be available to you,
EVER.
Keep what is in your GM Voltec vehicle, ALL GM, and never ever let your OEM traction battery get messed-with.
Dan Petit Austin TX.
May 13th, 2009 (4:42 pm)#128 kgurnsey
Yes there is a big difference in the emissions based on the source of the E100. I was referencing sugar. The 85% reduction is for carbon.
May 13th, 2009 (4:44 pm)@DonC 153
“So if your car can handle E100 I’d go for it.”
That’s the problem. Honestly, I am ICE Ignorant…..lol.
All I know is my car is an Unleaded OPEC consuming/dependant car and doesn’t qualify for cash for clunkers. Also the only thing we have is E85. will my ICE take that and have a better chance passing smog??
May 13th, 2009 (4:57 pm)what is the exact business model for BP?, I cant find it written down anywhere, they probably have not settled down on the details yet.. this is what I think it is:
You sign up for a plan, you get to choose how many miles of driving you pay for. You probably will get charged if you go pass that limit.
Your plan includes the battery, free battery swaps and many free public places to charge the car, they will even install a charge unit in your garage but there I assume you pay for the electricity yourself.
If you choose an expensive enough plan, you will get a discount on the car or maybe even get a free car.
You may be able to buy a battery and own it, and thus not have to pay anything to BP.
BP has stated that other BEV will be able to charge at their stations.
Is this what the plan is?.. does anyone know?
May 13th, 2009 (5:00 pm)CaptJackSparrow #138
You can’t compare a ride at disney world to a car. The kiddy ride was designed to be driven by an 8 year old. I reviewed that video again and there is nothing guiding you into the bay other than the exact same wheel guides found at the car wash I mentioned.
But lets say you are right. What they showed was a building with the approximated footprint of a city gas station. In that footprint you had 1 changing bay. Not 6 gas pumps. The overall ‘thruput’ as it is sometimes called is substantially less than a gas station for any given amount of time. What you need, as with any alternative energy technology, is a LOT more land to make it work. That is why it might be good for delivery companies who can invest in the changing stations and train their employees how to use them without destroying expensive equipment.
If you really want to get off the big 3 (Gas/coal/oil) you need to invest in a HUGE amount of infastructure.
This professor gives a sobering view of what it will take.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/05/13/mackay.energy/index.html
May 13th, 2009 (5:11 pm)Dang people, this is an early prototype, of course there are a million problems with it. Do you think the first gas station was the 62 pump mega fueler you have down on the corner today? These things take time. Give it 20 years. Just because its not exactly feasible now doesn’t mean it can’t be refined and improved, but you have to start somewhere.
May 13th, 2009 (5:14 pm)#142 Statik says:
This might just be me, but I would patron the taxi cab company that ran Prius’…or if I saw five cabs in front of Waldorf and one was a hybrid…I’d take that one.
/might be a ‘green’ market/angle in that…dunno
———————-
I would too–assuming I recognized it (that hybrid sign is pretty small.) Although in front of the Waldorf, I think you’re generally expected to get into the one that’s first in line.
However, in New York most people take the first cab to show up. So, the people who won’t take a cab because they find it uncomfortable become a lot more important than people like me who just have a general preference for the hybrids. (I’m not going to continually hail cabs until I get a hybrid.)
For the record, I support Bloomberg in this (he’s still trying, by the way). The taxis are smaller, but if we want cleaner air, we all need to contribute, including taxi riders. Personally, I think they should just get rid of the partition, but that might provoke another fight.
May 13th, 2009 (5:59 pm)I read the article that Herm posted link to (see 50.)
Agassi could be the “Walt Disney” of the Electric Car and the extensive electronic communications between vehicles and charging locations (both plug and swap) that coordinate the drivers need for electricity.
Disneyland wasn’t created in a day, but it was constructed in a year and a day! Once your government gives this man the OK, then watch out. There could be a battery swap station near your home soon!
Los Angeles turned down Walt’s offer of installing a monorail through the city! Politicians and PACs can try to kill the EV, but there will be an area of the world, Israel, Hawaii, or another “island” spot that could become the next ElectroVillage “Disneyland” of massive EV automobile use.
May 13th, 2009 (6:28 pm)I’m amazed at how uninformed most people are what Better Place is doing. Everyone seems so focused on the battery swapping that they forget that this is only a tiny piece of what Better Place is doing. In Israel they are putting in around 500,000 charge spots and only around 50 swap stations. The main idea is that you plug the car in every time you park it so the battery is almost always full when you go to drive. If you do the same type of math that tells you and GM that 40 miles will cover the daily driving of 80% of the population, then a battery with 100 mile range that is plugged in almost everywhere it is parked will rarely need to be swapped. In fact Better Place claims that the average person will swap batteries much less than we currently make trips to the gas station. I agree that for long trips, stopping every 75-100 miles to swap would be a pain, but we either drive a second car or rent a car or live with the inconvenience. As far as the battery swapping, I’m a mechanical engineer and I see no reason why this won’t work. Robots in almost every car factory in the world do this type of repetitive task every 50 seconds and in most cases, if a robot malfunctions, there is a backup to immediately step in so that nothing goes offline.
The battery swapping isn’t the problem I’d be worried with. The real unknown is changing human behavior. Google and the Idaho National Lab have been tracking several Hymotion converted plug in Prius’ and found that the benefits were likely going unrealized because people were failing to plug them in. So maybe with 100 miles range people will not get into the habit of constantly plugging the car in which will wear the batteries out faster and require more swapping.
I was at first very skeptical of Better Place, but the more details that they release, it appears that they have done their homework and that they can make money. I just hope that they are as good with their pricing predictions as they are with developing software. If so, then they have a shot at making an EV affordable for people like myself.
May 13th, 2009 (6:32 pm)Schmeltz and Statik,
I really enjoyed both of your comments. It is nice to see a little debate especially since you both are well informed on the subject.
May 13th, 2009 (6:43 pm)Interesting video. I like that it takes about a minute to change batteries.
I too am curious about cost.
Gas is about $2.69 here now for 87 octane.
I sure wish I had my Volt.
May 13th, 2009 (7:27 pm)#163 Blakem:
Thanks for the call out. You appear to be pretty well read on this topic yourself too. I enjoy a good debate every now and then…(even when it appears I am in the lonesomely small minority–LOL!)
Despite the interest, (or maybe more curiosity) that I have for the BP setup, the Volt would still be the best EV fit for me.
May 13th, 2009 (7:32 pm)“Standardized Battery Packs” are highly unlikely. GM is committed to a “T-shaped” pack. I doubt all other makers of E-vehicles will adopt the same exact size and shape.
May 13th, 2009 (7:56 pm)I’m trying to imagine my car full of dirty snow and ice blocks sticking on the battery on a -30 february evening getting through that fine clean device.
May 13th, 2009 (8:22 pm)If you are going to spend half a million+ dollars to build a battery
swapping station, it makes more sense to build a hydrogen filling
station. Only by using hydrogen will the carbon footprint of cars
drop to 0. If batteries that can take you 40 60 80 100 200 300
miles were lighter and smaller, this swapping idea might make
sense.
Again on the quick charging idea, get a clue on how dangerous
that would be and how severely it limits the life of the battery.
People say that the Volt is a solution and that we don’t need to
build new infrastructure for it. WRONG! Not everyone has a
garage and worse people are going to want to plug their Volt
in if it is parked at work. There aren’t very many parking garages
that have a plug and worse, where does the power come from to
feed that plug? Imagine a 500+ car garage with 500+ cars
plugged in and I think you are talking megawatts. The Volt
creates a demand for electricity, but it isn’t outfitted with an
environmentally sound way to produce it’s own. Sorry,
burning bio-fuels produces particulate pollution where there
is ample evidence that burning ethanol is worse for human
health than burning gasoline. If you are going to use algae
to get fuel, it makes more sense to produce hydrogen than
it does to produce bio-diesel, synthetic gasoline, or ethanol.
A better idea is for people to form a hydrogen collective which
builds a station for it’s members charging members one price
for hydrogen and non members a higher price. Imagine paying
$2k for membership when you buy a fuel cell car. The collective
would need a 1000 people to raise 2 million dollars. There are
enough people in my small town alone to build six stations where
only one is needed. If a million people get together, you have
enough money to build a hydrogen pipeline. Hydrogen pipelines
are only $500k a mile. A 50 mile pipeline would cost 25 million leaving 975 million to work with to build filling stations. The advantage of hydrogen cooperatives is that the chicken and
egg problem goes away. The hydrogen infrastructure gets built
when the cars become available.
May 13th, 2009 (8:40 pm)The irony here is that in 5 – 10 years most of us will have range anxiety about our range extender! lol.
Everyone here has had ready and cheap access to gasoline for so long that we think it’s impossible that we won’t. I beg to differ.
May 13th, 2009 (8:59 pm)# 168
Producing hydrogen also takes energy.
Producing electricity to recharge batteries is a more efficient way of using fossil fuel than burning it in an gas engine.
It would take the cooperation of energy companies, but electricity can be produced with wind, water, and solar energy.
May 13th, 2009 (10:01 pm)Note that today’s cars and trucks, if they use gasoline, have near-identical receptacles for fuel nozzles. The Mini and the Avalanche both take the same hose from the same pump. Furthermore, this receptacle can be located in a large variety of places.
I would expect the actual contacts for high speed charging could be standardized for vehicles of wildly varying kwh storage, weight and size; the bigger ones will just sit on the charger longer.
The contacts (I envision the conductors being as widely separated as possible), could be placed in a large number of locations depending on type or model, there must be any number of ways that an autonomous connection robot could ascertain the vehicle style. If nothing else, the VIN barcode could be scanned (though some kind of wireless transponder would probably work better for a large number of applications than the current barcode)
If anything, a battery-swapping robot suggests to me that a much more complex cycle for high-speed charging could be considered. What if the standardized contacts had covers designed to be opened by the robots? This might answer the question of “what if the bottom of the car is caked with snow, mud, dead possums (etc)?”
I don’t expect that battery swapping or fast-charging would be attempted out in the open. It would have to under a covering of some kind (like an old quick-lube, or a dedicated structure) to avoid the “what if it’s raining” problem.
May 13th, 2009 (11:50 pm)I thought most new gas stations are covered. Is this not true? Anyway, there might need to be that car wash jet spray under the car to remove the salt, grime and snow that many cities around the world are famous for. Perhaps a camera at a pre-stage location could determine if it was needed or not. Then you get a nice, warm cleaning jet (it could be called the EV-bidet). Heck, in some cities you need a chisel!
Don’t forget, the battery pack might be a bit warm so that could reduce the amount of caked on ice. Anyway, the Canadian testing will shake all of these concerns out and they will figure out an effective way to deal with that, even if they have to have a pre-bay manned by an operator with a chisel and a sand blaster.
May 14th, 2009 (1:42 am)Ridiculous
May 14th, 2009 (2:10 am)I hate posting something twice , but if a battery that costs this much is designed for easy removal , they will be easily stolen by crooks and sold for a few thousand dollars . This has to be thought through more ways than one . Build my battery into the car so it cant be stolen .
The more I see on this battery swap and charge stations the more upset I get with this guy .
A point most people seem to be skipping is the value of the “easily removed battery” . Don’t you think that the criminal mind is going to quickly realize that in a couple of minutes that they can remove the battery from certain electric cars and sell them for a few thousand dollars .
There will be a market for “used batteries” as soon as the first one hits the road , don’t kid yourself other people are aware of the high cost of the batteries and know that they can make quick money by selling stolen ones too . STUPID STUPID IDEA .
Can you imagine coming out in the morning to go to work and you get a check battery light come on only to find that your battery was stolen while you were sleeping .
You go to the nearest battery swap station and purchase your own stolen battery back as a nearly new slightly used one for half price . No questions asked . You think stolen cars is a problem now , just wait until electric cars with expensive batteries hit the streets , we haven’t seen anything yet .
May 14th, 2009 (3:30 am)“who in their right mind would trade in a battery they owned/purchased with car for a used one on its last legs?” Nobody, which is why the batteries are leased from the swapping company, Project Better Place. It’s not yours to worry about.
“there’s the issue of driver’s who get a “bad” battery at the swap station” Um, how is that any different than getting bad gas at a gas station? It has happened, somebody goofs and puts diesel in the gas tank, or vice versa – yes, tanker drivers have made mistakes on deliveries! But at the swap station, the batteries are checked and tested automatically, any that don’t meet specs would be taken out of service and sold for other purposes (power backups, grid load leveling) or recycled. Compared to human delivery drivers, automated machinery is much less likely to make mistakes.
“I just do not see the advantage of changing out battery packs rather than charging at home” and “if you can’t ever charge the battery yourself what do you do if you run out of charge?” Most of the time you would charge at home, or at a public charging outlet, including charge outlets set up by this company. This is for those times when the driver is in a hurry, and is willing to pay extra to get back on the road quickly. But due to the low cost of electricity, it would still be cheaper and quicker than the average gas tank fillup.
“does this mean each “battery exchange station” will have to maintain an inventory of battery packs equivalent to the number of electric cars on the road?” No! “How many filled batteries will they have to have in reserve in addition to those recovered and recharged batteries?” That depends on how fast the batteries will be charged, and the expected peak traffic. For example, if the battery packs can be fully charged in 3 hours or less, then the removed batteries would be ready to go in 3 hours, so they’d only need enough battery packs to satisfy the “peak 3 hour” swap traffic of the day.
“Will there be regular deliveries from battery trucks?” Only when there are defective batteries set aside to be replaced. Not all that often, even at busy locations.
“Will this be a big VHS vs Beta fight trying to establish not only a battery format and chemistry standard but also shape and configuration?” Not likely, one company handles both battery swapping and leasing.
“By the time this infrastructure would be in place, battery technology will have evolved to make battery swapping a solution looking for a problem.” That is one of the risks Project Better Place has to face, it may or may not happen.
“lithium batteries would have a premature, shortened life because of being left with low charges in them for long times” They would start recharging them shortly after removal from the cars, so they will soon be ready for another car.
“the idea of a “one size fits all” battery doesn’t make sense” There are two possible solutions. One would be to stock multiple types of batteries, though that would add to inventory costs. A much better solution would be modular battery packs – a small car might use 1 or 2 battery modules, a midsize 3 or 4, maybe 6, 8 or 10 for a large SUV or truck.
“batteries won’t really work for for heavy duty or long distance travel” That’s precisely what this is designed for. We can get 200 to 300 mile range with current batteries, stopping every 200 miles or so for a 2 minute swap isn’t really much different timewise than stopping every 350 to 400 miles for a 10 minute gas refill.
“Who handles the batteries after they have been removed by the robot, puts them in a rack and starts the charging process?” The robots, obviously. Not much different than automated warehouse pallet racks.
“the station could potentially runout of charged batteries” And gas stations could potentially run out of gas, but those removed batteries are charging up all the time, so eventually there would be charged batteries. No need to wait for the delivery truck.
“The combination of EREVs and bio-fuels can easily replace all gasoline” True, but this isn’t designed for ER-EVs, it is for pure BEVs which also replace all gasoline. Different market, different approach. Will be interesting to see which works best in the long run.
“Your looking at LEAST $20 for a pack swap” That’s a makebelieve figure, no pricing has been announced.
May 14th, 2009 (7:19 am)#160 LauraM:
I knew being a New Yorker you were going to get me on that Waldorf/taxi cab pecking order…yet I liked the imagery, so I just ran head long into the wall anywa, hehe. I can only imagine the chaos, lol.
May 14th, 2009 (7:52 am)Dont worry, you wont see any lights
Can you imagine the worry of people that put $5000 worth of wheels on their car?.. tires are made to be easily removed.
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#174 Keith says:
Can you imagine coming out in the morning to go to work and you get a check battery light come on only to find that your battery was stolen while you were sleeping .
May 14th, 2009 (8:09 am)if there is ever a demand for fast charging, lets say 10 minutes then I could see a contact that looks a lot like a gas nozzle, probably 8″ long and 1″ in diameter… I think it should be located in the front bumper area only, and only one.
You park in front of the charging station, nose in, a robotic arm comes out and plugs in.. once all the safety checks are made (no current leakage due to foreign contamination or defective plug) it starts pumping the current in. You never get out of the car, you may be forced to watch 10 minutes of commercials.
You could use automated doors and so on to keep the ice and water off… maybe the robotic probe could use a hot air blast to melt the ice if needed, dry off the water etc.
You need the robotic arm because the charging cable will be very heavy and stiff.
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#171 Jackson Says:
Note that today’s cars and trucks, if they use gasoline, have near-identical receptacles for fuel nozzles. The Mini and the Avalanche both take the same hose from the same pump. Furthermore, this receptacle can be located in a large variety of places.
May 14th, 2009 (8:49 am)How much does the battery swap cost the customer? According to Better Place, the battery swap service is free, you only pay for the miles that you drive. So if you get a fresh battery, you pay for 100 miles which will cost about the same as buying enough gasoline to give you 100 miles today. Of course they have several plans, pay by the mile, buy a fixed number of miles per year, unlimited miles, etc., but for all plans, the battery swap is included.
So in Europe and Israel where gas taxes are high, the numbers make sense. If I’m paying 20-30 cents/mile because of high gas taxes then Better Place has a chance as they claim that the battery lease and electricity will cost them around 7 cents/mile. So if they charge you the same amount that you pay for gasoline, I suppose that the difference is enough to pay for the infrastructure and make a profit, assuming that they have enough customers. By the way, Better Place claims that for Israel, they need about 1% of the cars, or about 20,000 people subscribing to their plan to start making a profit.
Of course the US is a whole different story. With current gas prices at $2.25/gallon, it only costs about 9 cents a mile with a car that gets 25 mpg so Better Place probably can’t make money unless they charge more per mile that what we are currently paying for gasoline. However, if gas goes back up to $4.00/gallon, then maybe it will work here.
May 14th, 2009 (8:59 am)Statik, I understand your argument about the monopoly, but surely you must know that Better Place has addressed this several times. Better Place has pushed governments wherever they are currently putting infrastructure to allow for competition. They want to make sure that there are common standards so that the cars can plug into another companies charge spots. They are pushing to make sure there there will be no roaming charges allowed for using another companies charge spots. So I admit that currently Better Place is the only player going with this plan, but I don’t think that they are trying to keep competitors out.
Also, Renault/Nissan will license their system for the quick removal of a battery so that others can use the same swap stations. I suppose this will be similar to the way that Apple licenses the Ipod connection so that non-Apple devices everywhere can still synch to the Ipod.
May 14th, 2009 (12:03 pm)1) Open system, open network. No monopoly.
2) The pack weighs 250 lbs and has 4 locking arms to hold it in. Can also hook up an alarm as well. Not a big theft item because who are you going to sell the pack to? BP? Each battery cell will have a code. If your battery code is a stolen code then you are in trouble. Like using a stolen bike in many countries. Not a good idea.
3) The current A123 battery pack charges in the bay and takes about 20 – 25 minutes to complete. Thus, you only need a limited number (around 10) of bays for each battery standard to achieve continuous operation. That’s a cycle time of around 2 minutes per car per bay. I would like to see any gas station match that. Heck, the stations might have to slow things down a bit so they can sell the profit generating goods (snacks, beer, cigs, etc.)
4) Batteries can come in different sizes for low use or high use. Probably a few battery standards (like we have for the 12V battery or like AA, AAA, C) will emerge.
5) The BP model is viable if gas is $2 per gallon and above. Who thinks it will stay that low for the next 10 years?
If you think about it, if the problems listed by the many posters are the only concerns then the concept is almost a lock to be successful. I didn’t hear anything that is a show stopper. Just some engineering work and tweaking. Maybe many of you have never seen real-world industrial equipment in operation. Now some of those environments can be very nasty indeed. Heck, we can even get mechanical things to work very well in space. I think we can figure this out. Perhaps the first generation infrastructure won’t be that great but imagine a few generations of designs. It’s not like BP is trying to figure out what nanostructure will store lithium-ions most effectively. They are using proven technology.
Then again, I could write until the sun comes up. The proof will be to see the different pilot projects up and running. Then the critics will slowly switch to other topics as they show off their shiny new BP compatible EVs. My guess is they won’t even mention how they felt about the idea.
May 14th, 2009 (4:12 pm)I don’t see anywhere the biggest problem with this battery-swap idea. GM is sizing its Volt battery to accommodate the 75% of drivers who travel less than 40 miles daily. But what about the other 25%, those who drive OVER 40 miles daily? The Volt engine-generator set will seamlessly start up without the driver even being aware of it. The same applies to the 75% who travel less than 40 miles daily WHEN they occasionally drive over 40 miles on one trip.
But this scheme will require a battery swap (and not every 40 miles, but every 30 miles!) Can you imagine a 100-mile trip? Four stops to swap batteries. And what if you can’t find a swapping station every 30 miles–really 20 or 25 miles to be safe. Think of the inconvenience. Think of the “range anxiety” fear of being stranded. I don’t think this scheme will be acceptable.
Until there is a breakthrough in technology, I think the Volt is the best solution. The nighttime charging will make more money for utilities that all have idle capacity at night. Eventually the deserts will be covered with large efficient solar-thermal generating stations (already contracted for in California) so dirty coal-burners will be eliminated. And the Volt’s small (1.5L) auxiliary engine-driven generator will use biofuel made from cellulose one way or another (but all carbon-neutral).
May 14th, 2009 (8:39 pm)All of you are focusing on the details. Battery standardization, capital costs for charging stations, blah, blah, blah.
This discussion is the same as battery vs. fuel cell. Most of us can agree that batteries have won. Even Obama’s science advisor has acknowledged this and they are voting with dollars (research dollars that is.)
What this discussion is really about is what will make it to market first, battery swap or fast recharge? This discussion is over. Fast recharge has already won. Tesla claims they can fast charge their Model S battery (I would think it’s the one with the 160 mile range) in 45 minutes. Details are lacking but we are talking TODAY. What will be the charge time in two years? Five years? And of course my definition of fast charge is you don’t need to go from a zero amp pack to fully charged, just enough to get home or erase that ol’ “range anxiety.”
Of course we are talking a pure BEV. The Chevy Volt with its range extender has made the battery swap idea obsolete!
May 15th, 2009 (7:05 am)45 minutes is fast? I think 45 minutes to 8 hours is why anyone even contemplates hydrogen and biofuels.
If we are talking “making it to market first” and “competing” I think it is fair to say that, at the moment, gasoline has “won.”
I think the reality for very many people is that vehicles like the Volt will meet their needs. Which is why we are all here hoping for the best!
May 15th, 2009 (1:32 pm)I don’t get it. With so many disavantages mentioned in previous posts, I don’t think this idea has any future at all unless the persion behind this idea thinks that fast charger (under 5 or 10 minutes) will not be the reality for another 20 years? I don’t thiink so.
If I am correct, some car makers or battery makers already said that 15-30 minutes of charging can get you 100 miles or so in the EV cars 2011 – 2015 year model. I am very optimistic that fast charging in a reality in another 10-15 years or even much sooner.
My 2 cents
May 16th, 2009 (9:58 am)What I would like to know is what happens when a few of the cells in a battery pack go bad. Does the pack need to be replaced? Does it deteriorate to the point where the car won’t run properly? If that’s the case, battery swap stations make a lot of sense. Thing is, they would need to carry a pretty large inventory and most likely would have to reapir the battery packs on site.
My understanding is that the Volt will have 330 cells and, most likely will be a sealed unit. Can they be repaired by thrid parties? If they have top be sent back to the factory for service, I see problems. Dealers (if there are any left) might be interested in battery pack depot-level maintenance but God only knows what they would charge for the service.
May 16th, 2009 (10:14 am)The battery pack lift in the video appears to be very wide — wider than the wheel base of some cars. I think it must get narrower so that smaller cars can pull in without any risk of falling into the hole. I would think it should be no wider than an oil change station opening.
May 16th, 2009 (10:22 am)I am very disappointed that GM is not working with Project Better Place.
I view EREVs (or PHEVs) as an interim solution until charging stations like these are around most major cities. While I am anxiously awaiting a Volt EREV, I hope to eventually own an all electric vehicle that will be more reliable, lighter, more efficient, and better performing than EREVs. However battery swapping stations or ultra fast recharging stations will be needed before EVs will be widely accepted.
GM is leading the pack in EREVs, just as they once led in EVs and I hope they don’t get left behind with a battery pack that is incompatable with battery swapping stations.
May 16th, 2009 (9:45 pm)A mechanized battery swapping facility is not practical. It’s too complicated. People would rather fuel their EV’s like they fuel a traditional car; from a “pump”. This whole Better Place thing is a brilliant idea but it’s just not very realistic.
Could you really see these expensive battery swapping facilities popping up all over the country?
A rapid-charging infrastructure is way more appealing and practical. It doesn’t matter what car or battery you have. As long as it has the ability to charge from high power rapid-charge stations-which could be standardized-you’re good to go.
It’s much easier to visualize rapid charge stations across the country. They could built right into the existing fuel network. Imagine: Diesel, Low-Grade, Mid-Grade, Premium…and Electric. Depending on the amount of power the stations could deliver, cars could be charged in minutes (the same as gasoline cars).
May 18th, 2009 (3:52 am)Although raising valid points, most of you are missing the point, and I’m surprised that most of you are against the movement. In five years time we will see how effective the infrastructure works, and real concerns will be addressed. Even with a battery range of 300 miles+ swap-stations will be needed, and more effective, than if your battery only brought you 100 miles. Remember, your battery doesn’t need to be fully depleted for a swap, and you’ll only be charged for the energy you receive. Think of it as gas for your car which you can fill up at home, at work, and at a swap-station, except at a swap-station, your empty tank is replaced with a full one.
By the way, when lunched in Israel all the batteries will be owned by PBP, and will be the same. There will be no issues of the machine adapting to different plugs.
If hydrogen was the future, hydrogen would be here today, and it is for people who cannot think outside the box.
May 18th, 2009 (8:23 am)[...] the original here GM Volt Related Topics : australiaautomotiveNissansmart [...]
Sep 6th, 2009 (4:41 pm)Made me laugh. A friend going to Wayne State many years ago and living downtown used to bring his battery in the house every night. After months and months of doing this one night he was too tired and left the battery in the car. Sure enough the next morning it was gone.