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GM Planning All Electric City Car?
The Volt was initially conceived as a pure electric car by former GM vice chairman Bob Lutz. His colleagues, chief among them VP Jon Lauckner, added the gas range extender idea and so the Volt concept was born.
GM has remained rock steady on its goal of 40 miles of electric range, to maximize gas-free driving while at the same time keeping cost down and battery dependability high.
At no point has any executive at GM reported any plans to build a pure electric car.
There is a new unconfirmed report, however, that a pure electric may be in the works. GM first unveiled the Trixx concept in 2004 as a city-micro car similar, for example, to the Toyota iQ. Now, reportedly GM is reviving the concept as a pure battery electric vehicle to appear under the Vauxhall brand, and slated to launch in Europe in 2012 after the launch of the Volt-twin Opel/Vauxhall Ampera.
The new vehicle would use the same Voltec drivetrain minus the range extender
Supposedly the microcar would offer 90 miles of range using the same 16 kwh battery pack as the Volt. Presumably the car’s extremely small size and lack of generator and associated hardware would allow for the increase in range.
“It’s a concept only,” said Voltec spokeperson Rob Peterson. “I can’t confirm any of the details.”
Since this car is similar in size to the upcoming Chevy Spark, one would wonder if that car could come as an all-electric version for the US. However, acceptance might be problematic as US customers unlike their European counterparts aren’t accustomed to driving vehicles this small.
Source (AutoExpress)
May 8th, 2009 at 5:51 am
An all electric vehicle would be good if a person had an ICE vehicle as a second car.
But it really comes down to personal choice. I wouldn’t buy one until the range is way higher than 90 and charging is as fast as filling up the tank today. (or at least close to as fast)
Actually in this case, I wouldn’t need an ICE.
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Glad to see they’re doing this, but I’d take one of the ‘11 electric Ford Focuses first. More room, proven car, supposedly 100 mi range.
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:59 am
It makes sense that GM would want to expand the market for Voltec, given the level of investment they have made. But this concept will sell only if the price is near $20k or below. People will drive small cars if it’s the right car.
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Less mass = greater electric range
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:01 am
Price will be key for this type of secondary car. However, I can see good uses for it (pure commuter, or great for my teenage daughter – who I don’t really want out on the highways anyway).
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:05 am
90 miles all electric car. Freeway Capable? I’ll take one.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:06 am
Well, this is obviously an natural extension of the Volt. No ICE, shaken, not stirred (as Cap’n Jack would say).
In urban environments, this car can make a lot of sense. Good economy, easy to park, more affordable than an E-REV. I would be surprised if GM didn’t offer a version in the US.
Although US drivers aren’t accustomed to such small vehicles, it certainly looks bigger than the PUMA!
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:12 am
Three problems with this idea:
1. Except for city commutes, driving this would be a scary experience on a busy Interstate, with the huge trucks able to squash you like a bug.
2. It has to be a second car. The range just is not enough.
3. And according to the original article, they are talking about being able to only buy the car. The battery pack will be leased. This would be a deal killer, at least for me.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:16 am
This makes eminent busness sense. It leverages their investment in devleoping the Volt, it provides a vehicle to compete head-to-head with Mitsubishi’s iMEV, the Think City and other BEVs that are reaching the market, and it gives GM customers the option of a pure BEV if they don’t want a Volt.
Ditto, however, to Lyle’s guess that it may be more successful overseas than in the US. Ford’s offerings, if they come to pass, may well be more attractive here. But I’ll bet this isn’t the last BEV idea we’ll see from GM.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:16 am
More familys will buy one of these pure BEV’s just for the local trips
makes sence really.
But I will still need a VOLT or a Cruze with VOLT Inside …
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:22 am
People are driving those Smart cars. It looks kind of freaky to see one moving above 40 mph. So why not one of these ‘Sparkies’?
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Pretty soon the Chinese will flood the market with cars like this, simple to design and build.. low tech, low investments in production lines and factories.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:28 am
I like all of the speculation and negative points from the story.
“At no point has any executive at GM reported any plans to build a pure electric car.”
“unconfirmed report, , reportedly GM is reviving the concept”
“Supposedly 90 miles of range”
“It’s a concept only “I can’t confirm any of the details.”
“acceptance might be problematic”
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:29 am
GM… Just Do it!
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:38 am
Good to keep looking forward to where future customers may be. Should GM’s current efforts and gov’t support succeed in helping them survive, they’ll need the roadmap.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:38 am
Aren’t we just back to why GM claims the EV1 was scraped?
On the face of it, 90 miles is a fair distance, but the reality is you can only go 45 miles in one direction before you have to head back; throw in range anxiety, and its more like 40 miles.
This will only appeal to families (albeit a limited sub set at that), as why would anyone else want a small electric car with limited range as a second vehicle, when you can have a single volt or comparable larger electric vehicle?
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:42 am
I’ve been seeing a lot of Smart cars around lately. They get worse milage than many larger cars for the same price. People are spending a lot of money on Micro cars in the US. I think the reason Americans haven’t been buying them is because they’ve never been available until now. Any BEV that can travel safely at 75 MPH and go approx 80 miles will do very well.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:46 am
This would be excellent!!
Could you imagine the performance using a tiny vehicle like that but have the same 16kWh battery pack as the Volt? That would be HIGH performance for a small “energy efficient” vehicle!
It’s not cool enough for anyone my age though (lol), so unfortunately I would have to pass. It’s either a motorcycle or a Volt, unless 100,000$ drops out of the sky, where I would instead get the Tesla Roadster or maybe even Tesla S.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:59 am
Gsned57
“I’ve been seeing a lot of Smart cars around lately. They get worse milage than many larger cars for the same price. People are spending a lot of money on Micro cars in the US.”
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Really? Can you name a couple of those standard ICE cars that get better mpg than a Smart (33/41mpg)? Remember, the mpg calculation changed a couple years back, so ALL cars appear to get poorer mpg.
I have considered the Smart. It appears to get the best mpg of any small car I could find. The deal killer was 1) It did not get “extraordinarily” better mpg then, say a Cobalt or Fit. 2) It requires PREMIUM gas. Still scratching my head on the premium gas requirement, since the saving in mpg is more than eaten up by higher cost of premium.
PS: I have no doubt that you could easily squeeze out 50 mpg, with the proper driving habits. But, the same would also be true, in regard to increased mpg, for all cars.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Ha – i told you guys (well some of you) Voltec – ICE = BEV.
The Trixx looks like a SmartCar.
The spec’s are quite good enough yet for me to buy it, but I do see a big market for this type of car, esp. in the UK/Europe.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:15 am
If GM is denying it, “It’s a concept only,” said Voltec spokeperson Rob Peterson. “I can’t confirm any of the details.”
That is good enough for me, they never met a talking point they didn’t like and they hardly ever take the time to shoot down a internet rumor in their favor.
Besides, Lyle was just talking about economics of scale in the last thread. So how is GM going to have enough over capacity in batteries to spit out a bunch of mini-EVs at a reasonable price when they likely already have more Volt orderers than they can handle, then the Opel/Vauxhell Ampera in 2011, and the Converj as well?
Seriously, 2012? A low price, 16kWh electric city car?
/I think not
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:16 am
“There is a new unconfirmed report,…”
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Ok. I have a new unconfirmed report that GM is going to send out a coupon for $25,000 off any new car purchase. Our govt, of course will be applying a special tax of 200% to anyone applying the coupon to a car purchase.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:17 am
If it is just a concept, no need to speculate.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:21 am
To me, the idea of leasing the battery (while purchasing the car) is intriguing as a way of making the car affordable. And I’d love to have a Trixx taxi drive me around Rome, Paris, London or any other European city!
Another thing: as with the Opel Ampera, the Opel Trixx which carries over much of the Ampera’s styling cues, is FAR BETTER LOOKING! (See the original article’s photo below)……
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/235580/tricky_price_for_new_trixx.html
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Statik,
“Seriously, 2012? A low price, 16kWh electric city car?”
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I think they meant Nov. 10th, 2012, and the low price is of course based on the $40,000 Volt price tag (ok, go ahead, tell me the Volt is not going to sticker at $40k).
16kWr battery will be so cheap by 2012. This should be the 2nd gen battery.
(ouch, removing tongue from cheek, can be very painful).
BTW: Warning! taking day off work, have full pot of coffee, and am ready to BLOG this site to the end today! (between weeding lawn/garden, mulching, and re-installing rain barrels)
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:23 am
A Prius is more efficient: 48-45
But what he meant is that it should have gotten much better mileage for what it is, a motorcycle with 4 wheels
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml
E85 is very high octane, perhaps you could mix it with regular gas and get premium at a lower cost.
#19 JEC Says:
Really? Can you name a couple of those standard ICE cars that get better mpg than a Smart (33/41mpg)? Remember, the mpg calculation changed a couple years back, so ALL cars appear to get poorer mpg.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Silly rabbit. Trixx are for kids!
/I already put out my disclaimer about todays blog.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:26 am
26 Herm
The Prius does not qualify.
I said “standard ICE cars”. Apples-to-apples.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:29 am
So much talk about “range anxiety.” I think this is because the concept of an electric car is new and unknown. After a short while and some experience you learn how much range you have and how the things behave and they become no different than any other car.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:31 am
I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. But first thing is first. Avoid bankruptcy, produce Volt, then THIS thing. AWESOME!
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:37 am
Why would you put 110KW voltec in a city microcar? That would be de-dumb.
If they have the battery capacity and want to leverage their investment in voltec: dress down the Volt, lose the ICE, replace the engine/generator with additional battery mounting capacity, and take the batter module out of the rear legroom to make it a 5 seater. Viola, you have a $30,000ish highway capable non-micro BEV that buyers can upsize the battery if they choose.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:45 am
I too looked at the so called SMART car.
I agree with the general sentiment that this car is simply for those who want to appear SMART but the car is really not very SMART.
It may get slightly better mileage than others (lets say a COBALT), but it costs more and is barely larger than a motorbike. Premium gas is another issue.
This car is not something that will save you any significant amount of gas money over a Cobalt XFE or equivalent. And, you have a smaller car with basically no trunk that costs more.
Many people would expect this car to get 70mpg on its looks and when they find out it barely makes 40, they are dissapointed.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:46 am
From the article: The Volt was initially conceived as a pure electric car by former GM vice chairman Bob Lutz. His colleagues, chief among them VP Jon Lauckner, added the gas range extender idea and so the Volt concept was born.
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So I guess the real credit goes to Lauckner. Without the range extender, most people wouldn’t be interested.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Why can’t they get more like 125mi or whatever the EV1 got? I’m still waiting for a BEV Sky or Solstice. They need something that would be the every mans Tesla.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Interesting article..
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/30/business/gm-to-show-a-high-mileage-experimental-car.html
100 MPG @50 MPH, highway speed, 0-60 in 8, seats 4, and is ICE powered…
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Toyota lost more than GM in the 1st quarter…
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090508/AUTO01/905080417/1148/rss25
(This is or those that think GM (Ford and Chrysler) losing money is a NA auto manufacturer only thing because of their product line…wake up..its a GLOBAL thing. Especially amazing when you consider that they posted a 1.65 TRILLION profit just a year before… Shows that given the right circumstances MAJOR reversal of fortune is possible..(maybe they should net be building Sequoias and Tundra’s)
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:01 am
I will never buy a pure electric vehicle. Any electric car I buy MUST have a range-extender like the Volt.
Completely aside from the obvious range anxiety issues that ordinary electric vehicles have, I have another issue – power outages.
I live in the Pacific Northwest where we have windstorms in the winter that often cause power lines to go down, often at night, when I would be charging my electric car.
With the Chevy Volt, I would have NO worries about this. I would always know that, power or no power, I would ALWAYS be able to get to work the next day. The range extender would take care of this.
I have said this before, the Volt COULD be my only car. Any pure electric car would have to be an “extra” car that I keep next to my real car that is ready to go all the time.
Running out of battery power and not being able to charge up the batteries anywhere, anytime is a REALLY BIG ISSUE folks.
The Chevy Volt handles this brilliantly with its small, efficient, gasoline driven range extender, which by the way weighs FAR less than any amount of extra batteries some dimbulbs are clammoring for in order to get more range. Completely aside from the cost issue.
The Trixx will work for some people, but it will most likely be an “extra” car to tool around locally, while their REAL car (hopefully a Volt) sits faithfully in their garage waiting to take them anywhere, anytime, without worries about running out of battery power.
But you’ll always have range anxiety with the Trixx, and have to stay within a certain distance from your home. And I would never want my wife or daughters out in it and have to worry about them running out of juice and getting stranded.
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:03 am
#28 JEC
I don’t understand why people love the smart car so much. I think the Toyota Yaris is a close choice for a ICE High MPG car. It stickers for roughly $13k, MPG is 29/36, but the main difference is that it can seat 5. I have 3 kids so I am biased to having the 5 seater. I am willing to trade 5 mpg to take my family with me. I don’t drive one today but I am going to have to buy a new car in the near future. It will probably be a Prius until the Volt can come out with a 5 seat model.
Guess I am going to have to wait for Gen2 of the Volt to get my 5 seat version.(Hopefully!)
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:07 am
In the east US this would work in a major city. Out west, no way. Too much open space.
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:11 am
If GM monitors this site, I’m sure they are aware that they are prohibited from producing a BEV so let’s not worry about it.
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:31 am
37. zipdrive: I live in the Pacific Northwest where we have windstorms in the winter that often cause power lines to go down, often at night, when I would be charging my electric car.
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Sounds like the perfect place for a home wind generator
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:33 am
I have a full size car in which I commute alone almost all the time. Some of the time, I have a child on board. As a second (non-family) car, for short distances (95% of my usage is less than 90 miles for sure) a two seater like this would be more than enough.
If the price is right…
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:36 am
I am not surprised by this. When GM was talking about the need for chargeing stations it was clear they were working on an electric only car.
I would have no use for it but I think there is a small market for it. Likely big enough market to make it worth building.
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:53 am
35 Mitch Says:
Interesting article..
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Ha, 1991
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I am still of the opinion that there is a market for a city car in the Americas without a lot of extras that raises the cost to a higher level. Just good basic commuter transportation.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Small car lover represents.
I would have bought the Citi Th!nk (Citi Bee or whatever it’s name was) if it was for sale. I would have bought the SMART car if it was for sale when I got my Mini Cooper.
For me, it’s not about the fuel economy. That’s a benefit, not the main reason. I prefer small cars because I don’t need much room to carry my skinny butt to work 200-odd days of the year. Parking is painless, whether you’re parallel or head-in. Backing up is stress-free: I know where the corners of the car are, hardly any blind spot. And smaller cars tend to be cheaper.
We’re a family of four and on day trips I prefer taking the Mini, baby-seats and booster-seats fit fine. Leg room is fine (I’m 6 feet tall).
I’d happily take a electric car from a “real” car company. (No disrespect for the electric car converters, but I don’t want a one-off project that no one but them can repair). I always thought the Volt could potentially be a pure electric, since the gas engine was relegated to a support role.
For those who say “But you need a second car”, for trips or whatever, I’d rent. Two weekend trips would be the equivalent to one month’s car payment on a second car.
OK, I lied. My butt is not so skinny lately.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:06 am
#44 k-dawg
But that is what makes it interesting….18 years ago…
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:06 am
This makes as much sense as the Th!nk, the i-Miev, the Model S, and the other BEVs. IOW not much. BEVs can’t have the necessary range at a reasonable price point. They are DOA.
The idea that a BEV will make a great city car doesn’t make much sense. Most people living in a large city can use public transport. They want the car for weekends out of the city. For these folks the shared cars like “Zipcar” are a better product. The better market is retirement communities and so forth where people don’t need to travel very far. At the moment NEV fill this market but a BEV could as well. But this is really a niche market.
The only exception to the rule that BEVs are non-starters may be the Aptera. It weighs only 1700 pounds and has a somewhat mind blowing Cd of .15, so you can actually get a reasonable 100 mile range with a 20 kWh battery. But while Aptera might be successful as a BEV, its two seats, three wheels, and radical design relegate it to the niche car bin.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:12 am
I would prefer to have an all electric camaro convertible – thank you as my commuter car.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:12 am
I don’t think low cost is going to be a part of this vehicle.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/07/vauxhall-going-after-city-car-market-with-trixx-ev/
Here is the last paragraph from that article:
“You might think that dropping the internal combustion engine would make the car considerably cheaper, but that may not actually be the case. AE indicates that the lithium ion battery pack powering the Trixx could cost as much as £8,000 ($12,100 in U.S. dollars) per unit to make. To counteract the high cost of entry, Vauxhall may sell the actual car while offering a separate lease for the battery.”
Like I said earlier: Leasing the battery pack makes it a deal killer for me.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Rather than worrying about BEVs, GM would be far smarter to focus on FUEL CELLS running on HYDROGEN! Oh wait, the DOE has just dramatically cut funding for hydrogen fuel cells on grounds that it has no chance of becoming an alternative transportation drive train in the next twenty years.
Just goes to show you what happens when you put a Nobel Prize winner rather than the head of the Arabian Horse Association in charge of energy policy. LOL
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/05/energy-department-slashes-hydrogen-transportation-funding-in-proposed-budget.html
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:20 am
The Chinese make a five passenger 500 Km vehicle now for 9600 Euros . Lithium cells . AC full load .
The only anxiety you would experience with this vehicle is that somebody could steal it and you wouldn’t hear it be driven away because it is silent .
http://www.alibaba.com/product/jiayuanev-11993404-0/Happiness_Angel_Electric_Vehicle.html
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Personally, I prefer the Volt. The range extender is very important to me. I don’t want to have to rent a car whenever I decide to go on a weekend trip. I gave up on a BEV the minute I heard of the EREV concept.
That said, I’m sure there’s a market for this, and it’s a fairly simple leap for them given the work they’ve already done. And it’s great for PR. And, if someone comes out with a better battery, GM will be ready to capitalize on it.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:28 am
#48
DonC
This makes as much sense as the Th!nk, the i-Miev, the Model S, and the other BEVs. IOW not much. BEVs can’t have the necessary range at a reasonable price point.
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Maybe that’s why they’re talking about battery leases. Eliminates the up front costs of expensive obsolescing batteries and getting gas for buyers and the hassle of Don C & Jim I as customers = two direct hits from one simple idea!
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:28 am
#9 FME III said
This makes eminent busness sense. It leverages their investment in devleoping the Volt, it provides a vehicle to compete head-to-head with Mitsubishi’s iMEV, the Think City and other BEVs that are reaching the market, and it gives GM customers the option of a pure BEV if they don’t want a Volt.
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Excellent comment. I agree.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:32 am
In other news, it looks like statik’s prediction for the Chrysler bankruptcy was completely off-base. While the opposition looked dead after the court ruling this week that set a May hearing date on the sale, that sale now looks like a done deal.
Two more bondholders have dropped their opposition on grounds that the dissident group did not have sufficient holdings to influence the outcome (basically 4%). While the numbers aren’t known, Oppenheimer Funds and Stairway Capital Management, the two bondholders withdrawing their opposition, have been assumed to be the largest holders.
/Game Over
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:41 am
#24 nasaman
I doubt we’ll see electric taxis until we find a way to quick charge the vehicles. And this car definately won’t work.
I spoke to a taxi driver in New York recently about the possibility. And I found out that a)they are always in use. Taxi drivers often don’t own their taxies. And they trade them off at the end of the day. So no chance to charge, and b) they generally go about 300-400 miles per shift. (It makes sense considering they’re constantly on the road.)
It’s possible that its different in Europe, but If New York taxis need 450 miles per shift (to be safe), I doubt European taxi drivers would be OK with only 90 miles range.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:48 am
#2 Sean
Do we have more information on the BEV Focus?
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:49 am
#53 LauraM Says: Personally, I prefer the Volt. The range extender is very important to me. I don’t want to have to rent a car whenever I decide to go on a weekend trip. I gave up on a BEV the minute I heard of the EREV concept.
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I’m right with you on this.
Life doesn’t always go according to plan. There will be emergencies or other unplanned situations where you have to drive beyond your range and a rental car is not an option. I also gave up on a BEV the minute I heard of the EREV concept.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:49 am
90 mile range! Totally pathetic!
I get range anxiety just thinking about it.
How about a BIGGER car with MORE batteries and a LONGER range.
I need to start an electric car company… who are these retarded engineers anyway.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Link to story re Chrysler proceedings and probable sale.
http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/05/06/2009-05-06_judge_oks_carmaker_chryslers_sale_to_fiat.html
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:53 am
The electrci “City Car” a urban planners dream. It sounds so good on the surface. But allas REAL:ITY intrudes. In dense inner city cores, dwellers compete nightly for parking spaces. Seldom doe a car spend the nihgt intyhe same parking spot. Few have a garage in which to park their vehicles. How then does an electric “City Car ” get recharged?
The short answer is that it doesn’t. Therefore it can’t work. Electric “City Cars” wil in Reality only be surburban runabouts, a second or third vehicle for a surburban family with charging facilities. Suitable for running errands, and last minute grocery shopping; and pick-ups for the elementary school child.
Nice Try; but NYC’s Manhattan is a useless and unsuccessful venue for the the electric “City Car”.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:53 am
#54 jeffhre says “Maybe that’s why they’re talking about battery leases.”
Financing can always ease the pain of the monthly numbers, but you still have to recover the costs. The path of less buyer resistance is to take the Tesla route: sell a battery that won’t last but a few years and offer a replacement battery as an option. This may be a horrible idea from the consumer’s point of view but it does keep the acquisition price down and not require monthly fees.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:01 am
47 Mitch Says:
May 8th, 2009 at 9:06 am .#44 k-dawg
But that is what makes it interesting….18 years ago…
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I agree. I’m surprised carbon fiber costs haven’t come down enough for more of them in passenger cars. It did make it into Boeing’s Dreamliner plane. I remember seeing a video recently about a europeon car designer/maker that wants to use all carbon fiber. I’m trying to remember who it was, but I think i may have killed those brain cells last weekend.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:03 am
#51 DonC – Give our former president some credit. He didn’t put the head of the Arabian Horse Association in charge of energy policy; He put him in charge of emergency response management. Feel better now?
#52 Keith – The other anxiety I would feel driving a Chinese car is the fear that it would explode, rust, and generally fail. My secondary anxiety would be the undoubtedly toxic fumes from substandard plastic and upholstery, and then there’s the lead paint… Keep in mind that most passably decent Chinese-made products are engineered in the West and/or made in Western-owned factories. The Chinese are coming along in quality, but I don’t think they are quite there yet for their own domestic goods.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Nice to see that GM will be shipping many new jobs overseas after they get that second bailout. Way to go GM. First, you throw billions of taxpayer dollars down the toilet in the last quarter, now after getting even more bailout dollars you plan on eliminating thousands more U.S. jobs and creating thousands of new jobs overseas. Great use of American Dollars !!
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:04 am
An all electric small car in the US? Too good to be true. I’m sure the powers that be will continue to tell me that I don’t want a small car because they’re unsafe, or don’t make enough money, or that I won’t buy it, or it won’t go fast enough for me, or whatever their idea is to make me want to be a typical wasteful, spoiled, overweight American with more money than sense.
#57 LauraM:
Battery technology is young. Quick charges may be possible: http://gas2.org/2009/03/12/mit-battery-breakthrough-could-revolutionize-electric-cars/#more-1993
#37 zipdrive
Portable charging is possible already: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/
I’m a small car lover myself and was on The List to buy a Smart, expecting to get 70mpg… silly me.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:05 am
#34 Bearclaw says:
I’m still waiting for a BEV Sky or Solstice.
======================================================
If you live in Cincinnati you can order your electric Sky now.
http://www.ampmotorworks.com/
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:07 am
#62 Stas – You, my friend, are right on the money. Electric cars are actually the opposite of the ideal urban car. No reliable charging location = total failure of concept. And of course there is the other factor… that most people in dense urban areas take mass transit. I work in a downtown setting with 100 people in my office, and 80% of them take transit to work, even from their homes in the ‘burbs. It is not a political statement, it is just plain easy and convenient. People will always choose what is easy and convenient.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:08 am
#57 Laura M
There are quick charging lithium batteries made by companies such as Altair-nano. You’d need a lot of juice but that isn’t a big deal for a dedicated application like this. Using these batteries you could “fill up” in a few minutes.
I suspect the numbers work since you’d be reducing “the nut” the driver would need to pay to recover operating costs (remember an electric mile costs roughly about 1/6th a gas mile). It could be a great idea. However, the larger problem is that this is a niche market and the costs of developing a car makes it difficult to service a niche market.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:08 am
While I can understand DonC’s opposition to these electric city cars, I just have to take an opposing view. Don, you said that people living in the city could take mass transit. Well mass transit is not available in all cities and they don’t go on all the suburban streets most of us drive on. Running to the market, going to a shop or taking the kids to the local park. Ball games on the weekend, music practice three blocks over or the many other routes most of us take on a weekend or during the week after work. City electric cars do have a future. And as the range increases with battery efficiencies, they will play a larger role in our lives. Most families I know have two or more vehicles. My wife is a homemaker, but she runs all over town at times picking up the grand kids, taking packages to the post office, going to the store, going to church and the million other things a homemaker does on a weekly basis. The one thing she very rarely, if ever, does is to travel more than 100 miles in one day. So, a city electric car that could go 100, 200 or 300 miles and did not have all the creature comforts we want on long trips across the state or country would be perfect for her. Especially if the cost was below $18,000.
What I am trying to say is that you may not want or need a city electric car, but millions of others here in the U.S. could certainly use one.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:08 am
48 DonC
What if cities required cabs to be BEV’s. Maybe subsidised them, leased batteries, fast-swapped them, fast-charged them, whatever. The cabbie could return to the station when the battery was low, and jump in a new one that is fully charged. Would be good to test this ideo out on a smaller scale first. Maybe a greener city in California would do it first.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:09 am
56 DonC
Good news to my ears. Sorry to the Fritz Bliz people.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:09 am
#64…I know what you mean and I cant remember his name / company..but is it this guy?
http://jalopnik.com/5222533/jason-castriota-stile-bertone-mantide-pininfarina-p45-designer
(interestingly the Mantide is a Corvette Z06)
http://jalopnik.com/5239427/the-2-million-showdown-bertone-mantide-vs-corvette-zr1
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am
#68 16falcon
Heh… that means it only costs about $54,000 for a basic model electric sky!
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Since this car is similar in size to the upcoming Chevy Spark, one would wonder if that car could come as an all-electric version for the US. However, acceptance might be problematic as US customers unlike their European counterparts aren’t accustomed to driving vehicles this small.
=============================
Americans didn’t even drive small cars until the Japanese cars hit the US market in the ’70s during the Arab Oil Embargo. Honda’s first car, I can’t remember the name of it, was powered by a Honda-750cc motorcycle engine. Don’t assume Americans won’t buy small cars because they are small. When gas gets back to $4.00/gallon, and it will happen, the car buying public will be looking at mpg first and size second.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Laura M. @ 57,
“I doubt we’ll see electric taxis until we find a way to quick charge the vehicles.”
____________________
Well, if we’re talking about Paris . . . . .
Paris launches online map of EV charging stations
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/19/paris-launches-online-map-of-ev-charging-stations/
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:18 am
So much for Ford not asking for Government money
Ford May Get U.S. Aid to Overhaul SUV Plant to Build Small Cars
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601209&sid=a.zLBOPkVXIs&refer=transportation
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am
#58 ArkansasVolt Says:
Do we have more information on the BEV Focus?
======================================================
Lyle’s sister site had this article earlier this week:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/review/1020476_2012-ford-focus-ev-prototype-first-drive
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:20 am
oops me at 72. Didnt read Laura’s post at 57.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am
It’s about time they follow Tesla correctly. They lost out on the high-end to compete with the Roadster. So choosing the low-end for a real EV. Sorry the Volt is NOT an EV, it is a HYBRID (get it through your thick heads already). Sooner or later GM will realize that Tesla had it correct at the very start, they just lacked manufacturing facilities (something that GM just wastes on junk).
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:24 am
#66 T Geithner
Trolling, trolling.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:28 am
68 68.
16falcon Says:
May 8th, 2009 at 10:05 am .#34 Bearclaw says:
I’m still waiting for a BEV Sky or Solstice.
======================================================
If you live in Cincinnati you can order your electric Sky now.
http://www.ampmotorworks.com/
————
That’s pretty sweet, but $25,000…. hmmm. Doesn’t the sky cost 20K? And they get to keep all the removed parts!
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:28 am
#69 Jim in PA
I work in a downtown setting with 100 people in my office, and 80% of them take transit to work, even from their homes in the ‘burbs. It is not a political statement, it is just plain easy and convenient. People will always choose what is easy and convenient.
—————————–
And they drive gasoline or diesel powered vehicles from and to the transit boarding location. Plus all of their night time and weekend driving around their neighborhood. You make my point very well. These people could use an electric city car to get to the mass transit point and for their other uses. Especially if the cost was low and they don’t need a lot of expensive options on the vehicles.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:32 am
I lost interst at…
” electric vehicle to appear under the Vauxhall brand, and slated to launch in Europe in 2012 after the launch of the Volt-twin Opel/Vauxhall Ampera.”
I want a BEV now! Small 4 seater or 3 seater. Commuter. At least 40AER or more. 90 is more than enough. If GM will sell me one without the battery that would be awesome! If they’d at least sell me a “Shell” of a car that would be just as good. Strangely only Smart and Lotus seem to be the only ones who do this. I’ll assemble my own pack WITH UltraCaps to augment it. I’ll do it RIGHT!
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:35 am
#56 DonC
I agree with you. This was not a fight the bondholders could win. The Tarp banks were the major bondholders, which puts the indpendent bondholders in the minority. (Even though they’re obviously biased.) And no one wants to be the next AIG where the employee’s kids are getting death threats.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:37 am
“However, acceptance might be problematic as US customers unlike their European counterparts aren’t accustomed to driving vehicles this small.” ?????
———————————————–
I WOULD ACCEPT IT, IN A NEW YORK MINUTE!
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:37 am
#75 ArkansasVolt Says:
Heh… that means it only costs about $54,000 for a basic model electric sky!
======================================================
Half the price of a Tesla Roadster! Half the range too (150 AER vs 300 for the Tesla). Tall people might fit in the Sky too, I’m not sure though, I’ve never driven one. I was just pointing out that a conversion is available (in Cincinnati).
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:37 am
#
Jim in PA Says
Don’t forget that your dog might die if he eats the car .
Seriously , What I am pointing out is that the Chinese Engineers are away ahead of us in the development of electric vehicles .
They can get distances like that in China and Europe now , we should have Engineers here that can do the same in North America , if they can’t , then why can’t they . What do the Chinese Engineers know that we can’t figure out ?
Maybe we could buy some Chinese electric cars and Reverse Engineer them to find out how they are made and then copy them .
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Speaking of mass transit:
I know there are a lot of people who favor mass transit. I, myself, would like to be able to use, but it is not available to me. Well, not really true. I could drive 8 miles to where I could catch a city bus and use it to go the other 2 miles.
Some of you speak of mass transit as though a person could step out of their house and walk down to the end of their driveways and catch the train or bus to work. It does not work that way, people. How many miles does the average mass transit customer from the suburbs drive to catch the mass transit train? Anyone have any idea? Could 5 miles or 10 miles be a good guess. How much gasoline or diesel does a mass transit customer use in a year to get to the train or bus? Wouldn’t you rather use an electrc city car to get to and from the train or bus stop? Especially if it was not very expensive to purchase. How many of you mass transit customers own more than one vehicle? One percent, two percent, 10 percent? Even if only one percent, we are talking about a lot of people. A lot of gasoline or diesel usage. Plus the cost of oil changes and maintenance to the vehicle. I know there will be maintenance to the electric city car, tool. So, I will give up that argument. But, let’s be realistic here. Electric city cars could become very handy tools for everyone, even those mass transit customers. IMO.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:43 am
@k-dawg 79
“So much for Ford not asking for Government money”
Comparing the nubers of what GM and Chrysler in the many billions the application for $0.444Billion seems a little petty. But it is still aid nonetheless….
@N Riley 91
“I know there are a lot of people who favor mass transit. I, myself, would like to be able to use, but it is not available to me.”
Ditto here. There isn’t even a bus route. WTF? One is in plans when the roads have been widened, current construction going on, but not for 2 more years. Whateva……
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:45 am
GM is damaged beyond repair, there is a Korean conversion company selling a electric car conversion kit including a 30 kwh(yes 30 kwh) LG Li-Polymer battery pack and complete drivetrain for $15,000, RIGHT NOW!!!
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2887
GM’s cost for a 16 kwh worth of LG battery cell is only $7,000, yet GM complains about not being able to turn a profit on Volt at $40,000, which is a BS.
It is time to scrap GM and let others bring in Volt competitors at $30,000.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:46 am
#81 Lido
Do I sense that you are ignorant on the subject that defines an Electric Vehicle? An Electric Vehicle (EV) is a vehicle with one or more electric motors for propulsion. The Volt is propelled by an electric motor with an Extended Range ICE (internal combustion engine) as a generator to the same electric system… the ICE does not propel the Volt.
get it through your thick head Lido
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:46 am
82 Lido
Until a BEV can consistently get 250min range, in -20degree weather, is front wheel or all wheel drive, seats 4, cost $40k or less, can charge in 8hrs or less, and has batteries that last 10years/150K miles, i’m not interested. I think a lot of other people are also not intersted. The Volt with its range-extender is the way to go until battery tech arrives and costs come down.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:48 am
@Keith 89
“They can get distances like that in China and Europe now , we should have Engineers here that can do the same in North America , if they can’t , then why can’t they . What do the Chinese Engineers know that we can’t figure out ?
Maybe we could buy some Chinese electric cars and Reverse Engineer them to find out how they are made and then copy them .”
We here in the US over engineer our stuff. Over there, and I am talking only battery packs, they will take the cells/pack relatively close to the cell brekadown threshold. Just look at how the Volts batt pack is designed. Overkill if you look at it. If you opend the batt pack to its thresholds you can get AT LEAST 90mpc. they don’t have the 10/100 warranty figure to contend with. Similarly the DIY’rs do the same thing but I have heard of packs taken to NDE and have lasted for at least 4 years and this is on older Lithium low cycle count in the 1000 range cells.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:50 am
90 Keith
More range is easy. There’s no engineering to it.
More range = more battery = more cost = Tesla
The trick is putting the correct amount of battery that it makes market sense for a company that is going to mass produce something.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:50 am
#79 k-dawg
Ford May Get U.S. Aid to Overhaul SUV Plant to Build Small Cars
——————————-
There is a tremendous difference to a loan from the government and the government giving bail-out money for ownership in GM and Chrysler. I have no problem with Ford, GM or Chrysler borrowing money with the only strings is that it goes for the purpose of the loan and it is paid back on time. But, I strongly object to the type of bail-out the government is doing in an effort to take over and control our auto companies and most of the banking industry. This is not the way to solve our problems. This is the way to losing much of what America has stood for for most of our history. This is not what I want to see happen. I would rather see these businesses and banks go under and let us rebuild from there.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am
CaptJack @ 86,
You could pump this baby up. (by the time you got to work, you’d definitely be shaken, not stirred). Be sure and slap a Jolly Roger on it when you’re done with all the mods.
http://www.sunnev.com/
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:51 am
“Nice to see that GM will be shipping many new jobs overseas after they get that second bailout. Way to go GM. First, you throw billions of taxpayer dollars down the toilet in the last quarter, now after getting even more bailout dollars you plan on eliminating thousands more U.S. jobs and creating thousands of new jobs overseas. Great use of American Dollars !!”
Don’t forget they are also using our money wisely by throwing lavish spa/resort parties!
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Mass Transit:
We need those air-tubes from Futurama.
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:57 am
#57 Ecogeek & #70 DonC
If quick charging is workable than electric taxis would be great. And, since it’s so centralized, it would be relatively easy to do. And, since the same guy told me that taxis usually only last 3 years max due to heavy use, it would be a quick turnover.
The problem is economics. I think there would be enough demand for one or two companies to mass produce electric taxies. But even if they solved the quick charge problem, we’d need batteries that could stand up to that kind of constant use for at least two years. The cities are not going to require taxis to buy expensive cars that need to be replaced every year. We want them to make a living.
#77 carcus1
How long does it take to recharge an electric car at one of those stations?
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:01 am
#89 Keith
From what I’ve heard, cars in China are much lighter since they don’t need to meet US safety requirements. So, it takes a lot less fuel or battery to get them to go a given distance.
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:03 am
@carcus1 98
Thats a “Model U”
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:06 am
gentlemen–(as well as ladies)
lest we forget THAT funding comes from an already approved bill from last year, that is, IN FACT, a loan………
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:08 am
#56 DonC said:
In other news, it looks like statik’s prediction for the Chrysler bankruptcy was completely off-base. While the opposition looked dead after the court ruling this week that set a May hearing date on the sale, that sale now looks like a done deal.
Two more bondholders have dropped their opposition on grounds that the dissident group did not have sufficient holdings to influence the outcome (basically 4%). While the numbers aren’t known, Oppenheimer Funds and Stairway Capital Management, the two bondholders withdrawing their opposition, have been assumed to be the largest holders.
/Game Over
===================
You really have a thing for me don’t you, lol. It’s ok, big hugs.
My prediction for the Chrysler bankruptcy was they are in no way going to be able to do a 30 days quick and easy bankruptcy. If you are familiar at all with the proceedings and how the bankruptcy process works, you know about the 20 day holdover period after the motion for the 363 to sell the assets is filed…which they did yesterday. So the 27th is when they get back at it to approval the sale of assets. (Chrysler internally makes the decision on the 20th, and are back in court to get it ratified on the 27th…the earliest date they can)
What do you think happens on the 27th? The judge says, ok, and Chrysler is out of a GSB in 2 days? Nope…then there is a 3 week period to actually hammer out the deal, then they go back AGAIN to get all the regulatory things out of the way (another 15-30 days), then they have to go back AGAIN to get the sign off on the exit strategy.
Seriously, first you say, oh no Statik, there can’t be a GSB…then it happens. Then you say, oh no Statik it can’t be just a 2-3 month process like you proposed…then it happens. And here you are again, ahead of the final result proclaiming my error. Did you see me at anytime do a ‘happy dance’ and bring up stuff here on the boards about anyone in particular because I was right? No. We all just moved on.
How about this time, you just sit on your hands, and wait until Chrysler has ACTUALLY gets out of bankruptcy, then go to the calendar and count the days…then if that number is less than 30 from April 30th, how about coming to the internet and call me on it then if you still feel the need to call me on the carpet, rather than continually making inaccurate statements.
Here is EXACTLY what I said about the bankruptcy proceedings, just a day after it got started on May 2nd:
#19 Statik said:
May 2nd, 2009 at 11:05 pm
Onto Chrysler’s filing itself.
The gov’t is saying they are going to try to do this in 30 days. Well, still no 363 motion…and they can’t get back in there until the 4th. So at best they get a hearing for the last week of the month, (NY local rules require 20 days notice).
#26 Statik said:
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:07 am
I mentioned this earlier, but the plan is to go 363…and to sell all the good assets to NewCo (which will be renamed Chrysler after the process is over), but you have the sticking point of a 20 days notice period. They still haven’t got the motion in, because the gov’t is…well the government. At best the hearing is the 25th. No chance we see a resolution that would threaten the GM bondholders to capitulate by the 31st. (in my opinion)
http://gm-volt.com/2009/05/02/the-fall-of-chrysler-could-be-model-for-reshaping-gm/
=====================
Please don’t come here with some random statement to make me look bad without at least doing your homework, with no supporting links to your claim, no supporting quotes from me about what I actually said.
I don’t know what your axe to grind is, but this forum doesn’t need a whole bunch of ‘I told you so’ posts all over the place, especially when they aren’t even right. Even If you are right, and I am wrong…you don’t get like a blue star beside your name. It isn’t a competition.
Do you know how many random, unsolicited ‘I told you so’ posts I could have doled out over the past year? …but I don’t, because they serve no constructive purpose. They just make people upset, they know when they have a made a error, no one needs to be reminded. Besides, even if they do make a error, so what? …that is not the end of the world or a crime, thats just life…and to top it all off, it just makes the person giving out the ‘I told you so’ look petty.
Again, as always, lets just start again in the text thread.
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:10 am
I hope GM stays hungry, because they are facing some very tough competitors. I wouldn’t settle for the 40 mi range and the long charge times GM.
Renault and Nissan just announced a new car.
100km Range
Two charging options
Full charge via 10A 220v in 6-8 Hours
80% charge via 32A 400V in 30 min
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/06/renault-unveils-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-pure-all-electric-cuteness/
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:10 am
May 8th, 2009 at 11:12 am
DonC + statik = CatFight!
lol……
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:14 am
#105 statik (me)
I apologize to anyone else on the board who had to read through my retort to DonC. It wasn’t my original intention for it to be that long…or to bum anyone else out.
I slipped a little bit and I should have just said nothing and not responded.
/sorry
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:19 am
#109 statik
I actually thought it was a good read. I am interested in what DonC can say to that. Debates are healthy and good for the site.
keep up the good work.
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:21 am
statik, DonC
Go have a beer man, it’s FRIDAY!…..
=oD
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:29 am
#101 Laura M.
“How long does it take to recharge an electric car at one of those stations?”
_____________________
That’s going to depend on what you’re charging as well as the power capacity at the station. I haven’t seen the specs on the Paris stations and there appear to be different types (some are just for bikes).
But I’ll throw out a guess:
You’ll probably get 45 miles of charge in 5 to 10 minutes.
You’ll probably get 90 miles of charge in 30 to 45 minutes.
– these guesses are for a small car with a 16kwh battery
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am
#71 N Riley
If you live in the actual city, then, usually, you can walk a couple of blocks to the bus or train station. At least, you can in New York, Boston, Washington, London, and Paris. And, in New York at least, parking is a major headache. And expensive. In fact, most people I know who own cars rarely use them to drive around the actual city. And, even if they did, they wouldn’t want to pay a garage for two spots. (Garages here cost around $400 a month.) And, even people who live in less central areas and have their own garages, generally don’t have enough room for two cars.
I don’t own a car. And I don’t plan to get one until I move to the suburbs in about two years. At that point, I could use an electric car. But I would need an ICE car as well, and I’d rather stick to two in one. So, hopefully, the Volt will be available for me at that point.
I’m not saying that no one will want a pure electric car. You’re right. There will be a demand for it if its cheap enough. There are a lot of suburbs where people need to drive to mass transit. And there are cities (LA) where they don’t have good mass transit, and parking is much less of a problem. I just don’t think that a venue like NYC is a good place for one.
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am
There is most definately a place for these small BEC’s. Most days I could absolutely use a BEC, but prefer the Volt concept because a simple phone call could easily re-route me beyond the available battery range. (I’m just not ready to let go of the near unlimited range of the ICE yet.) NRENS (No Range Extender, No Sale!)
There are also huge problems with mass transit! I COULD take transit to work, but it would take better than an hour to get there. I can drive there in 20 minutes. This really is a systemic problem, hence the traffic and pollution issues persist.
#81… Troll
statik, DonC, I enjoy your comments!
Dr Lyle, Thx for your continued hard work!
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:44 am
why worry so much about the 40 mile range when 78% of the public travels less than this per day.. and why worry about fast charging when you have all night to do it?… maybe the Volt is not for you..
The whole concept of the Volt is the 40 mile range, overnight charging and a range extender genset.. if you change any of those basic things then you need to design a new car.
No real numbers at all in that article, first is 100km, then 160km once batt tech improves.. ya right.. and the price will come down too I’m sure. Note the 6 year battery life..
The Mitsubishi iMiev is the only small electric in the running right now.
………………………………………..
#106 dennis Says:
I hope GM stays hungry, because they are facing some very tough competitors. I wouldn’t settle for the 40 mi range and the long charge times GM.
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:48 am
#110 ArkansasVolt said:
#109 statik, I actually thought it was a good read. I am interested in what DonC can say to that. Debates are healthy and good for the site.
keep up the good work
———————-
#111 CaptJackSparrow said:
statik, DonC
Go have a beer man, it’s FRIDAY!…..
=oD
=======================
The Capt is right. This is not going to go anywhere. Debates are great I agree, but scorekeeping and regurgitating the past are not so great (while they might be entertaining to some, lol).
DonC, I respect you and many of your thoughts and opinions, you bring a lot to the site…and I’ll leave it at that.
End of the day, we are all just people with a common interest (even though we certainly view it from different angles).
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:56 am
90 miles all electric makes more sense for me than Volt as a second car if they can sell it under $20k. Lets face it – Volt IS a second car, IS way too expensive, IS small, IS complicated, IS using oil and HAS regular maintenance. If GM can not make it Chinese will. Sooner or later. I can wait.
If not all electric, Prius has much more sense nowadays than future Volt. To me Volt is dead at $40k.
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:58 am
#113 LauraM
Having never been to New York, I do see the city on TV and can understand the parking problem. If I lived “in” the city like NY, I would do the same as you and the many others. I would walk the couple of blocks to the station and catch mass transit. How many people, or what percentage of NY workers, travel by car to get to the mass transit station? I don’t know that answer, but I bet buried in statistics somewhere is the answer. I just suspect it is a large number or fairly decent percentage. Those are the people who could use a city car. I suspect most of those commuters own more than one car. One or more of them could be city electric vehicles.
Yes, I certainly believe there is a market for a good, low cost city electric vehicle as well as an expensive city electric vehicle and as well as for the Chevy Volt. There is room for all of them, including the current crop of ICE only vehicles we are presently driving.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
#112 carcus1
That might work in Paris, but it won’t work in New York. Not for taxis at least. No taxi driver is going to want to stop every 4 hours for a half hour in order to recharge their car. And that’s not counting getting to and from the station, and waiting in line.
Also, taxis can’t be too compact. As it is, people complain about the new hybrid taxis we’ve gotten recently. And they’re Malibus and Camrys. I don’t mind them, but I can’t imagine anything smaller. For some reason, the front seats take up a lot more space in cabs than they do in regular vehicles.
But, hopefully, the technology will improve to the point where it’s feasible in New York.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
A lot of talk about SMART cars here. I think they really missed the mark when they made a ‘NA Version,’ which basically is a US version.
The US has a lot of what I would call ‘fringe’ regulations for cars, that make it difficult to get micro cars across the borders. So before Penske/Daimler decided to sell them in the US, we got the Euro spec, cdi only up here in Canada (of which I owned a lime green one…my wife loved it). We had a whole retrofit because of impact zones when it came to the US.
When they made the ‘new’ SMART(451) and marketed it in the US, it came only with the standard gas ‘performance’ engine (71HP and up, made my Mitsu) that runs premium, and discarded the cdi, because it is diesel and is anemic on performance (to say the least). They figured American’s wanted ‘performance’ I guess and wouldn’t understand the cdi, so they discontinued it.
The cdi has/had a 40 HP turbo diesel (which I believe is the smallest diesel engine in a car anywhere) and only emits 88 grams per kilometre (note euro spelling) of CO2, which is the lowest (or really close) to the lowest ICE production in the world.
More importantly, it returns 70 MPG. (I actually got 3.4L/100km in the real world if you are so inclined to do the math…and to be fair, I liked to play the game of how low can you go.).
I really think they made a mistake not making this engine choice available…and it is a shame. Other than the novelty factor, I don’t know why anyone would buy it now…it isn’t exactly a Cadillac inside, and it is a pretty noisy/herky-jerky experience inside.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
#89 Keith
Seriously , What I am pointing out is that the Chinese Engineers are away ahead of us in the development of electric vehicles .
They can get distances like that in China and Europe now , we should have Engineers here that can do the same in North America , if they can’t , then why can’t they . What do the Chinese Engineers know that we can’t figure out ?
Maybe we could buy some Chinese electric cars and Reverse Engineer them to find out how they are made and then copy them ”
What do they know?
that if it kills some one, they don’t have to worry, that if the battery leaks they dont have to worry,that if the battery fails in 2 years, they dont have to worry, if a baby in the car gets ejected out the front window, they don’t have to worry, if the thing blows up and a governement official is injured….
then they worry…
but otherwise, why worry….no environmental laws, public safety shmafty, liability is for westerners…
All explains why it will not be sold here for the same price…
Mitch
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
LauraM @ 119,
You’re probably right. It may be some time before “Johnny Cabs” come around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjRXyWFLkEY
P.S. I friggin’ hate cabs.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
131 Carcus1
But I’ll throw out a guess:
You’ll probably get 45 miles of charge in 5 to 10 minutes.
You’ll probably get 90 miles of charge in 30 to 45 minutes.
– these guesses are for a small car with a 16kwh battery
—————–
What! No way. I’m going to have to put my guess out and multiply those #’s by 40.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
In other interesting but non-technical news, Toyota has announced that it’s losing money faster than GM. Specifically:
“The Japanese automaker said it lost 765.8 billion yen, or $7.7 billion, in the first three months of the year — even more than the $5.9 billion lost by its near-bankrupt American rival, General Motors, in the same period.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/business/global/09toyota.html?ref=automobiles
At some point everyone is going to recognize that the problems facing Detroit automakers are not unique to Detroit.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
@LauraM 119
“As it is, people complain about the new hybrid taxis we’ve gotten recently. And they’re Malibus and Camrys.”
That reminds me. I actually was able to go check out the new Honda Insight. It’s a really nice car. It uses IMA (Integrated Motor Assist). I sat in the drivers seat and my son hopped in the back. He said there was no room. So I got back there and there was literally no leg room. Both front seats were pushed foreward. Needless to say, there was no need for a test drive. Contrary to their slogan “A Hybrid for everyone…”, this hybrid was not for us.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
@k-dawg 123
131 Carcus1
But I’ll throw out a guess:
You’ll probably get 45 miles of charge in 5 to 10 minutes.
You’ll probably get 90 miles of charge in 30 to 45 minutes.
– these guesses are for a small car with a 16kwh battery
—————–
What! No way. I’m going to have to put my guess out and multiply those #’s by 40.
———————————————————–
I hope your multiplying the minutes and not the miles.
If so I agree…
carcus1, whatcha drinking? I’ll have one too…..
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
#124 DonC said:
In other interesting but non-technical news, Toyota has announced that it’s losing money faster than GM. Specifically:
“The Japanese automaker said it lost 765.8 billion yen, or $7.7 billion, in the first three months of the year — even more than the $5.9 billion lost by its near-bankrupt American rival, General Motors, in the same period.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/business/global/09toyota.html?ref=automobiles
At some point everyone is going to recognize that the problems facing Detroit automakers are not unique to Detroit.
==============================
I was surprised by the number myself, I know they had said they were going to take some charges in the first quarter and sales were bad…I was thinking more like 4-5 billion tops.
They also said they expect to drop another 9 billion for 2009. Ouch. Your right, this is a terrible environment for all the players, Toyota included.
I really think we need some attrition in the market (especially NA)…is it wrong that I am still pulling for Chrysler to dissolve shortly after the GSB and go C7? I mean seriously, the gov’t has drawn the line in the sand and said to Chrysler, ‘this it it…6 billion, we put you through the bankruptcy, then no more’ (although it is now up to about 9 billion in aid…but you know what I mean)…how can Chrysler really keep going, unsupported afterwards?
The quote from Toyota president Katsuaki Watanabe was kind of nice though “…we were lacking in the scope and speed of dealing with various problems and issues, and for that I am sorry.”
/refreshing
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
@RVD 118
The Volt would be my only car, and I would buy it for $40K, …but not a penny more
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
#19 JEC Says
I was mainly thinking of the Prius, Jetta TDI, Rabbit TDI, insight, and the Civic Hybrid.
Those don’t fit the description of standard ICE (non diesel), but I never meant them in my original statement anyway. My main point was that for a few grand more (or about the same cost for the Rabbit) you get 3 extra seats and room to haul things for the equivalent or better gas mileage. Getting a smaller car for the sake of a smaller car doesn’t make much sense to me. But if that smaller car gets better milage than the next size up and you don’t need the utility of the bigger one than great.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
#124 Donc…
Mentioned it back in #36…
so old news now…lol
#127 Statik
He can apologize..he’s stepping down in June anyway…so everything is his fault…hope he keeps his pinky finger tho…
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
This is almost the exact same thing as the Th!nk City car. Just buy the designs to that and start manufacturing. Oh wait . . . NIH syndrome.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
#124 Donc
The part you are leaving out is that while the reporting losses of $7.7 Billion for Toyota were more than the $6 Billion for GM, GM also burned through actual cash of $10.2 Billion during 1st quarter. Toyota on the other hand has huge cash reserves. I’m sure if GM could switch financial positions with Toyota they would in a second.
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May 8th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
I always take cabs in NYC. Im not a fan of subways. Call me lazy, but finding the station, going up/down umpteen flights of stairs, sweating my @ss off, just to cram next to other sweaty ppl. Yeah, i could save a couple dollars, but i like the curb to curb service of a cab with air-conditioning.
Regarding parking, NYC would do itself a favor to study parking in Tokyo & Nagoya. They have come up with some truely remarkable parking solutions. Think of a vending machine for cars. We all know now much the Japanese love vending machines.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
#132..if they are flush with cash, why did they ask the JApanese government for aid?
Not nitpickin, but I really want to know!
They have cash, credit, according to all the Toyato fan boys are in so much better a position, then why the loan?
Again not knockin the big T, but to me it says something stinks…They made over a TRILLION friggin yen LAST YEAR ALONE!!
Someone please explain…
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
#125/126 CaptJackSparrow
Yeah, I had called my Honda salesman back in October to put my name on the Insight list. After checking it out more as more information about the car came out, I called him and told I would be coming by to purchase the Accord EX-L in October instead of the Insight in April. The Insight may prove to be a good seller for Honda, but I don’t think Toyota is going to be threatened too much by it once things settle down some. I test drove several Toyota Priuses and like the leg room in the front and the back. I just could not convince myself to purchase a Toyota. I just get the shivers thinking about it. Maybe I need some of what carcus1 is drinking too.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
#118 N Riley
I don’t know how many people who work here drive to public transportation. You’re right that quite a few don’t live in the actual city, and they usually own cars. But I dont know how many people use them to get to the public transit. Our public transportation goes pretty far out, so I assumed they just used the cars on the weekends.
I’ll have to ask around. (Not that that’s a scientific sample, but now I’m curious.)
I do know that Tesla’s planning on opening up a dealership here. So, maybe, they know something I don’t. Although I suspect Tesla’s a much easier sell since it’s a) an obvious status symbol geared towards the wealthy who can afford things like multiple garage spots, and b) it has enough range that most commuters would be able to drive in if they wanted to.
But I still don’t think it qualifies as a “city” car. Suburban or commuters. But not “city.”
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
ummm , may be its better to push a makeover of EV1 back than going for a new design – because its 2 seater and small – taking advantage of all the previous work done.
Second simple option is take inspiration from aptera ( On aerodynamic design ) , the Aerodynamic style itself will give some more miles and making it small and light may give 90 miles on volt battery.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
#135 N Riley
Just out of curiousity, what is the difference between Honda and Toyota?
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
NYC could also do something like I saw in Spain earlier this year; public bicycles. City citizens had cards they swiped and they could unlock a bike, ride it where-ever, and lock it back up. They also had extensive bike lanes & signals (in Barcelona, not so much in Madrid). I liked it a lot using my personal bike, but the city bikes were also very popular.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
statik
No problems. I don’t take this stuff personally at all and I don’t mean it that way. So all the attention you think I heap on you is all HUGS. LOL (I hope you feel the same way).
On the bankruptcy, I was responding to your comments along these lines:
“The gov’t is running some questionable (to say the least) plays, skirting the law, trying some bush-league procedural trickes, and some other serious chicanery, but the bondholder’s guy (Gerard Uzzi) is right there killing them on it every time.
It is like he is watching them put out motions and he is drafting his retorts and objections (with significant merit) and getting them back to the judge almost concurrently. He is making a ton of sense, plenty of rule of law behind his statements and the government is just…I don’t know, it is almost embarassing for them. He is making them look foolish.”
I didn’t see it this way at all, and I didn’t bother to actually follow the case because the contours seemed fairly obvious. First I thought the arguments about senior debt were misplaced since what we had was more charity than DIP financing, I also thought the idea of trying to shop the assets wasn’t persuasive since most of those assets had little commercial value (who wants an auto plant in Detroit in today’s economy) and that every day spent in bankruptcy diminished the value of the assets. Finally I thought that the equities didn’t favor the holdouts because they had bought the bonds for ten cents on the dollar and were now complaiing they were only going to get thirty cents — hard to feel sorry for someone making a 300% gain.
As it turned out the overstatement about the holdings of the bondholders made him look foolish, and he took it in the shorts on Tuesday. Today’s announcements just put the nails in the coffin. My guess is that the remainder of the holdouts will soon fold their tents. If not the judge will fold them later this month.
Note that at the end of the day everyone would have been better off had the bondholders taken the offer and NOT forced the bankruptcy. Car dealers are probably hurt the worst (not that they are a sympathetic group), and of course we still have AFAIK unresolved issues about credit default swaps. All that happened was we wasted time and a lot of money paying lawyers.
In this regard, I never thought bankruptcy impossible. I thought it a bad solution. I still think that. Maybe more so than ever. Litigation is too unpredictable, and restructuring outside bankruptcy invariably would produce better outcomes for the vast majority of participants.
I don’t BTW think the Chrysler bankruptcy is a blueprint for a GM bankruptcy. They would not be comparable. GM is just way way way more complex. In support of this view I’ll reference your very good point — made months ago — that Chrysler was a desirable take-over target because it had a simple structure though a less-than-desirable product portfolio.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
@DonC 140
statik
No problems. I don’t take this stuff personally at all and I don’t mean it that way. So all the attention you think I heap on you is all HUGS. LOL (I hope you feel the same way).
Yuk Mushy stuff….
It’s Miller time………..and Pizza.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
CaptJackSparrow #141
“It’s Miller time…”
Twist to open. All time best commercial.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
#123 K-dawg, #126 CaptJack,
I haven’t found any specs on what they’re doing in Paris. But there is some out there on Tokyo’s (much more ambitious) project.
http://www.iea.org/Textbase/work/2008/transport/TEPCO.pdf
pp 12,14,17
We’re talking quick charge here boys. QUICK CHARGE! Scotty, Bringin’ the power!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njrd2Uc2nRI
Spock’s Crib
oh yeah, it’s just cranberry iced tea from Sonic.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I have equipment for Chrysler (Mexico) sitting on my floor now. Maybe they will take it (and pay us) once this legal crap is done.
FYI – we are also bidding a project for GM..so they are still spending $. Unfortunately its for GM Uzbekistan! What will the Russian-ish Volt be…. GM Вольт?
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
carcus1 @ 143
How do you guys find this “stuff” on Youtube? LOL!!!
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
144 Carcus1
Intersting.. seems more like a goal than actually something developed.
I found slide 13 to be the most interesting, where they actually talk about the battery being able to accept a “quick charge”. As far as I know, this battery doesn’t exist (yet). Not counting super-caps.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Statik #127
Toyota’s number “feels” more real than GM’s. I think they took some losses early while GM pushed some things into Q2. There has already been significant attrition in the market. Much more reduced capacity and reducing the players will be pretty harsh for the consumers when the economy starts to turn. Additionaly, capacity lost now will mostly be gone forever or at least the foreseeable future. I hope the planning is for “sustainable” SAAR and not for the short term based on today’s numbers.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
129 Gsned57
I agree with your logic.
When the Smart car was first rumored to be coming the US, the mpg spec’s were more in the 50+ mpg range hwy/cty, but then a few things happened. First the engine and car were Americanized (ie: bigger engine, bigger car), second the mpg that was originally claimed was based on the imperial gallon, not the US gallon (1 US gal = 3.8Liters, 1 Imperial gal = 4.5L).
Also, that premium gas requirement really stuck the knife in the Smart car. If your looking to save money on your petro bill, then this would actually cost you more to operate then, say a Honda Fit. (Premium is typically about 10% higher then regular, at least on average).
So now the Smart car is a 2 seater that gets about 3-4 mpg better then, what I would consider a real car, that seats 4 or 5 people uncomfortably.
I have 2 kids, but if the Smart would have come closer to the 50mpg, I would likely have purchased one, solely as a commuter car and run about car. But, if I can get a car that holds 4 for about the same money, and the same mpg, then its pretty much a no brainer, for me.
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May 8th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
#140 DonC said:
“statik, No problems. I don’t take this stuff personally at all and I don’t mean it that way. So all the attention you think I heap on you is all HUGS. LOL (I hope you feel the same way).”
———————-
Alright, so we are cool…that is good. I had visions that we might have to duel at high noon tomorrow.
As CaptJack says, “It’s Miller time………..and Pizza.”
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May 8th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
149 JEC,
You know whats funny about premium… it doesnt matter what regular gas costs, premium is 20cents more. I have to use premium, and even though gas was $4.35 a gallon last year, i took some comfort in that i could get premium for just 20 cents more. Ahhh silver lining.
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May 8th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
#148 JEC said:
When the Smart car was first rumored to be coming the US, the mpg spec’s were more in the 50+ mpg range hwy/cty, but then a few things happened. First the engine and car were Americanized (ie: bigger engine, bigger car), second the mpg that was originally claimed was based on the imperial gallon, not the US gallon (1 US gal = 3.8Liters, 1 Imperial gal = 4.5L).
Also, that premium gas requirement really stuck the knife in the Smart car. If your looking to save money on your petro bill, then this would actually cost you more to operate then, say a Honda Fit. (Premium is typically about 10% higher then regular, at least on average).
So now the Smart car is a 2 seater that gets about 3-4 mpg better then, what I would consider a real car, that seats 4 or 5 people uncomfortably.
I have 2 kids, but if the Smart would have come closer to the 50mpg, I would likely have purchased one, solely as a commuter car and run about car. But, if I can get a car that holds 4 for about the same money, and the same mpg, then its pretty much a no brainer, for me.
================
Yupe exactly. That is what I did, I used my SMART cdi has a commuter and ‘runabout’. It was cute, small, highly efficient, didn’t pollute (relatively speaking), etc.etc.
I just don’t understand the new SMARTs. Why does anyone want to pay a premium to get what I would consider ‘decent’ mileage for a 2 seat ‘non sportscar’…without any fancy accoutrements?
/bring back the 40 HP turbo diesel
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May 8th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Captjack .. Miller?
Shouldnt it be Jack Daniels, or Captain Morgan?
TGIF, i’m out of EV talk so here’s some LOL for u
(something else NYC could use, Super Heros (no that’s not me under the mask))
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/living/2009/04/28/dnt.oh.shadowhare.superhero.wlwt
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May 8th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
#146 K-dawg,
Ok. No battery exists that can accept a quick charge. Got it. Thanks for the info.
/ better get Tokyo on the phone
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May 8th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
N Riley
A typical New York County (Manhattan) denizen and his humble car park. “Comedian and car aficionado Jerry Seinfeld, whom Forbes estimated took in $267 million in 1999, has built a showroom-like garage for his collection of cars near his home on Manhattan’s Upper West Side. Seinfeld reportedly acquired the two-story property in 1999 for $880,000 and has since renovated the building for an estimated additional $500,000.”
from ( http://www.forbes.com/2004/04/30/cx_bs_0430home.html ) The article goes on to say it’s not exactly typical as it has an office, bathroom, deck and even a kitchenette. Of course the prices are out of date by now also.
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May 8th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
#143 Carcus
Interesting presentation, I like that even they think 40-50 miles is ok. (60-80KM)
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May 8th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Wow!
I just went back an read some of the previous posts. Man did someone open up a can of Whoop A$$ today!
Funny how personnel we take some attacks. I have had a few blasts before, but after I have that beer and think about it, I usually get a good chuckle over how my pride was hurt.
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May 8th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
#124 DonC says “At some point everyone is going to recognize that the problems facing Detroit automakers are not unique to Detroit.”
—————————
Most of us recognize it. Most of us also recognize that it is Detroit alone that is getting our (taxpayer) money, in huge amounts. Good for Detroit (or some people there), but it is not good for the rest of us.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
#136 LauraM
Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but here goes. I don’t know NY or the surrounding suburbs, but I don’t think the mass transit comes by the front door or just down the street or just a street or two over. My only experience with that situation is the movies. I have seen hundreds of movies set in the NY suburbs where the father and/or mom leaves for work each day by getting in the car (or car pooling) and driving to the nearest parking area where the mass transit train stops. You never know whether they drive 5 blocks or 5 miles, but I always get the impression that it is miles and not blocks. That is what I am basing my “theory” on, not the “average Joe or Jane” that leaves in the morning and strolls down the street to the nearest subway entrance or elevated train stop. They may only have to walk a block or two or so. They certainly do not need an electric city car. But, the mom and pop out in the burbs do or at least could use one to save fuel, etc. Maybe you need to consider a weekend trip to the burbs to “scope out” the situation since you said you would like to move to the suburbs one day. Then you could let us know what you find and we both would know. Surely, though, we have some suburbanites on this site that could “educate” us. Anyone?
Edited: I agree on the Tesla dealership statement. I am a little surprised about the single car garage situation, but upon some more thinking about it, I guess it comes down to space requirements. Most homes down here are built with a two garage or carport. Not all of course. And we do have some older homes that have none. Most apartment dwellers have a parking lot for cars.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
To all who say Lithium cells for quick charge are not there yet, you’re wrong. Even the least expenxive cells, Thundersky 200Ah cell ( http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/2008926101921.pdf ) can achive a 2C charge rate. That is 400A charge rate. The 100Ah cell is rated at 3C for a charge current of 300Ah. It’s not the batteries that are limitting charge times, it’s the lack of the capability of the charging infrastructure itself, i.e. the stations, connector interface and contact point, wire/cable capable of such current (remember soccer moms need to be able to do this)….etc.
So, yes, the batteries are there. The power is there at every Gas stations and are already piped for 330VAC 200A 3 Phase and even that will be slow. I think Tesla’s quick charge specs will eventually be adopted.
Of course that’s just IMHO.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
#159 CJS
So what would you call a “quick charge”? I ask because if we can get a “quick charge” down to say 5 minutes or less, then we will never have to worry about range anxiety… right?
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
N Riley @ 158
When we go into NYC (not very often) we drive to New Haven, CT to get the train.
This is about an hours drive by car and an additional 1 to 1-1/2 hour train ride.
The train is pretty expensive, but when you compare it’s cost to trying to find parking and then paying for parking…it’s a pretty good trade off.
Even if we elected to drive into the city and pay for parking…the car would sit for the entire visit and we would get around using the subway.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
I think the idea of a small BEV car is a great idea. 90 miles for in city driving is excellent. This car is not made with the US in mind. European countries are smaller and more condensed. The cities are closer together also. You can’t say “90 miles is too short I couldn’t use it so it needs 150+ blah, blah, blah.” The Trixx is made for Eurpoean countries not a large country like the US. Another thing is many europeans will drive somewhere, park, and walk around everywhere unlike our lazy asses. So 90 miles would more than likely be excellent for them. Oh and very small compact cars are where it’s at in Europe. They don’t mind paying a little extra for a nifty small car. When gas in 8-10$ you take what you can get.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
You know, I can be pretty dumb sometimes. Here I have been wondering who the heck the person “CJS” was and it just dawned on me after reading Arkansas Volt’s comment (#160) that it was our very own esteemed Capt Jack Sparrow. Just slap me down!!!
Edited: Sorry about that Capt Jack. Have a beer on me.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
N Riley @163
We have an acronym for everything! Lol.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
#161 David K (CT)
Yes, that complies with what I was led to understand. I would do the same, I am sure. I have heard stories about parking in NY. I do plan to come to see the great city one day soon, but I will fly into town and use the transit system like all other (well a good portion of the) sensible people. Thanks for the information.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Bioelectricity gives better mileage than biofuel, so that ArkansasVolt can grow high energy content non-food native species on the 10 acres and harvest ‘em and drop ‘em off for $ at the nearest biomass power plant. That should provide the coin to live closer to work. (I’d be surprised if 10 acres at a time would make economic sense – for such a small parcel, probably more value added to run restaurant grade stock on it, like mudbugs.)
http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0507-hance_bioelectric.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090507141349.htm
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
@ArkansasVolt 160
“So what would you call a “quick charge”? ”
My perception of a quick charge is the inrush current equvalent to the batt packs 1C or 2C rating. Mine differs from the rest. Others need it time and wattage ratings. It will be a while before we reach a 5 minute FULL charge. At 2C for a 330VDC 200Ah pack is 198KW to charge. That’s a sh|tload of power to try and handle safely and that one of the major concerns.
“I ask because if we can get a “quick charge” down to say 5 minutes or less,”
Some will speculate that we can now. Technically we can. Those who can lift a charging cable with connector the size of a full fire hose can. But for now it’s going to have to be in the 30+ minute range to FULL.
I see the operating voltages increase closer to 500VDC because at that range, current will be less a requirement. He|| maybe even 600VDC.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
#166 Electric Vehicle Owner
Excellent find! Now I need to figure out what I need to get started.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
just to let everyone know where I am basing my commute experience, it is in and around Jackson, Mississippi. Not the most metropolitan city in the country. But you can’t walk around much because everything is so spread out. Downtown is like a lot of mid-sized capital cities with a good sort of density of buildings, etc. But, not many people live downtown. At night and on the weekends it is deadsville, man. There is a move to revitalize the downtown area with more apartment buildings combined with restaurants and office plazas. It is a good plan and most everything planned is already leased. I live in a suburb of Jackson called Madison. Population of about 12,000 (I am guessing because I am too lazy to look it up). That is close enough, anyway. The Jackson metropolitan area (consisting of a half of dozen small “bedroom” communities) is somewhere around 250,000. Mississippi only has about 3,500,000 people. Vastly different than the great metropolitan cites in other areas of the country. I would be considered a “red-neck hick” by most of the people in New York, I am sure, even though I probably have a higher education and higher IQ than the vast majority of New Yorkers. Not putting New Yorkers down, now. Just making a comparison. I think it is a great city with some very wonderful people that I would like to see some day.
But, my experience is very lacking compared to some on this site. I know, I am not the only “red-neck hick” posting on the site. I recognize a few of you by where you have said you were from in the past. Hey, I love good “red-neck hicks”. The more the merrier. haha.
Edited: Our mass transit system is only in the city of Jackson. It consist of a number (not sure how many) buses running on assigned routes. If you happen to live within easy walking distance of the route, great. If not, you better have a car or not mind walking to work in 95 degree temperatures and 100 percent humidity. If you walk around in the summer you get drenched very quickly in sweat. Not the best way to appear for work. Your co-workers will try to tell you to find an alternate method of getting to work. I drive 10 miles in. An easy drive.
It is a great place to live and raise a family. Ya’ll come on down.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
GM, please keep development pushing ahead on the PUMA.
We need this vehicle!
GO EV!
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
N Riley @ 196
Your Jackson, MS sounds very simular to Hartford, CT…without the snow of course.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Thread is off track. Volt fans like EV-ER. OK
Some folks th!nk they could use a BEV. At 100 mile range, I could. You could sure as heck use one to commute in Baltimore where public transit is very weak. I’m sure many other cities are the same.
If BEVs come on the market at attractive prices, they may sell like hotcakes.Many families would use it for a second car. Why must some insist it isn’t practical. We will see, let it be.
And don’t forget that somebody is gonna eventually do an add on ICE pack for BEVs. Betcha.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
I have been routinely charging A123 cells at over 4C for several years, 12 minutes to full charge and the cells dont even get warm.. but I dont think these are not the same cells that A123 makes for cars.
So even today it is possible..
……………………………………………..
#159 CaptJackSparrow Says:
To all who say Lithium cells for quick charge are not there yet, you’re wrong.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
@Shawn Marshall 172
“And don’t forget that somebody is gonna eventually do an add on ICE pack for BEVs. Betcha.”
That’s a given there bro!
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
#172 Shawn Marshall
Like some of us have said before: We need them all. There is not and will not be a single solution to our transportation problems. I would buy a city car with a 100 mile range. I would, of course, prefer a 500 mile range, but I would not be realistic in my expectations.
Edited: As a matter of fact, I would buy a yellow one just like the one pictured with this article. It looks good enough to me.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
#169 N Riley
Yup. Sounds like good ‘ole Little Rock as well, including the heat. Yuck!
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
#169 N Riley said:
just to let everyone know where I am basing my commute experience, it is in and around Jackson, Mississippi. Not the most metropolitan city in the country. But you can’t walk around much because everything is so spread out.
But, my experience is very lacking compared to some on this site. I know, I am not the only “red-neck hick” posting on the site. I recognize a few of you by where you have said you were from in the past. Hey, I love good “red-neck hicks”. The more the merrier. haha.
==============================
I think I remember Jackson on the ‘dangerous city’ list, no? Are you in a gang Riley? Do you have a tattoo in your gang? or just do ’stacking’ with your hands?
I have actually been in your city…for about five hours. We had a emergency landing at your airport. I can report very nice conditions at and around the US Airways section of the terminal if anyone else wants to visit…and I highly recommend the many fine pre-packaged fast food and deli sandwichs in the terminal.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Interesting idea. It will be a cool car, and some people will find uses for it.*
*If it is ever actually produced…
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Now, I want to admit to being dumb about the 1C, 2C, 3C ;and 4C you electrical engineers are throwing around. What does that mean in simple layman’s terms, please?
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
#177 statik
You may have been to Jackson, but you haven’t seen anything until you are “Gang bangin’ in Little Rock” … that is an old documentary that was done back when Little Rock was the #1 most dangerous city in the US (1990s).
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
You folks probably wanted the mainstream media find that referenced the Volt, which is the raison d’etre of this site:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601130&sid=aBMjtwiB_fHg&refer=environment
CJS – kitted Zero X
Gotta start somehow, somewhere, sometime.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
I think they will sell very well, and if the price drops into the $10k range they may very well take over the whole market.
Most every family could use a car like this, and the best part is that you would never take the risk of filling up at a nasty gas station and get assaulted.
Just make sure the car is attractive to women, and make sure it has easy access to put baby seats and groceries.. the market will be mostly to moms.
How many men here take their wive’s car to the gas station for a fillup?
………………………….
#172 Shawn Marshall Says:
If BEVs come on the market at attractive prices, they may sell like hotcakes.Many families would use it for a second car. Why must some insist it isn’t practical.
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May 8th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
@N Riley 179
“Now, I want to admit to being dumb about the 1C, 2C, 3C ;and 4C you electrical engineers are throwing around. What does that mean in simple layman’s terms, please?”
Sorry for the “Nerdaneese”.
A Lithium Cell is rated by capacity in Ah. Say you have a 3.2v 10Ah cell.
For discharge rate:
1C = 10Ah X 1 = 10A
2C = 10Ah X 2 = 20A
3C = 10Ah X 3 = 30A
and so on….
Samething for the Charge rate. The numeric value mentioned left of the “C” is your multplying factor.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
#177 Statik
Yes, Jackson has some problems like most American cities and towns. But, no, gladly do I report that I am not or have ever been a member of a gang. Don’t even have a tattoo. Jackson is certainly not ranked as one of the best locations to live, but it is not bad when compared to many of the other cities. There are a lot of places that would be a better city to live in for certain things a person might want to participate in. We are a long way from being the art center of the country, although we do have some world class ballet competition here and to balance that, we have one of the best horse shows in the country every year.
But, all in all it has become home for a dirt poor farm boy who grew up on a little farm in the south delta of Mississippi. I have a good job (for awhile longer) with a good salary, a nice 4 bedroom home in a very nice sub-division and a wife and three kids (a daughter and two sons). I have two grand kids (both boys) and one step-grand kid (a girl) that I treat just like blood kin. I have a good, comfortable life. Spoiled somewhat. Believe me, a very long way from the situation I was born into. My family worked hard, loved hard and went to church and prayed hard. All good things that made me the man I am today. I appreciate it very much. I loved all my years as a child, a young teen and as an adult. I would not really want to change anything, except to improve on the things I should have done better. But, no second trips through life. Too bad, I think sometimes. But, we would probably make the same mistakes again.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
#158 N Riley
I admit that I don’t know how many people drive to the public transit, so you’re completely right that’s its pointless to talk about it.
My main point, and I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear about it, is that this is not a city car. And if GM builds this BEV, they should try to market it to the suburbs. Not the urban center. New York magazine and Time Out New York would not be good choices for ad placement. People in the suburbs read the New York Times, but I believe they have a different version. (Obviously, it’s different in places like Baltimore and LA.)
I agree with your original point which is that there is room for all types of cars in the market. Although I hope that electric cars and EREVs will displace conventional cars in the next ten years.
For the record, I do want to say that you really can’t get an accurate picture of life in New York (or the NY area suburbs, and, yes, I’m familiar with several of them) from movies or TV shows.
ETA: I’ve been to Jackson Mississippi. And it is a beautiful city.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
An electric car with 90 miles of range that isn’t a ridiculous city car? Sell it for a descent price, and I’ll buy one ASAP. I drive a TOTAL or 34 miles daily.
90 miles range is plenty. I can keep an older ICE on hand in the rare event of a longe trip.
90 miles all electric range, and no more gasoline????? Where the hell do I write the check to????
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
It is a number that states how fast a battery can be charged or discharged.. in this case we are talking about charging the battery.
Traditionally lipos could be fully charged no faster than 1C rate, that is 1 hour.. a 2C rate is 30 minutes, 3C is 20 minutes and 4C is 15 minutes.
That is the simple explanation.. there is more but leave it for another day.
…………………….
#179 N Riley Says:
Now, I want to admit to being dumb about the 1C, 2C, 3C ;and 4C you electrical engineers are throwing around. What does that mean in simple layman’s terms, please?
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Suburbs? Haha. Who would drive it? Not soccer Moms. I wouldn’t want to be hit by it by a truck. This is a rich persons toy unless sold under 20k… The bottom of the economy hasn’t hit yet. Let this simmer for 3-5 years and then unveil it.
Ten years is optimistic. I’d give it 20. Battery tech still sucks and only a small % of people can still buy these cars since you have to own the vehicle for over 10 years to make any money.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
#183 CaptJackSparrow
Sorry for the “Nerdaneese”.
A Lithium Cell is rated by capacity in Ah. Say you have a 3.2v 10Ah cell.
For discharge rate:
1C = 10Ah X 1 = 10A
2C = 10Ah X 2 = 20A
3C = 10Ah X 3 = 30A
and so on….
Samething for the Charge rate. The numeric value mentioned left of the “C” is your multplying factor.
————————————————
And of course that explained everything to a layman. That answer is full of, let’s see, what did you call it? Nerdaneese, no less. Now that I am an electrical expert, I will go on to solve all of the medical problems in the world. Capt Jack, don’t try to explain it to me. Please let me stay dumb. It hurts my mind to try to figure what the hell you explained. HaHa.
I am not a beer drinker, but after that explanation, I think I will go have a beer. Come join me Capt Jack. Maybe after 10 or 12 beers I will be more amendable to understanding the explanation. Again — HaHa and HaHa.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
#186 define ridiculous and descent (I suspect you mean decent).
The problem with manufacturers is that waiting for consumers to tell them what they want is not very helpful, as consumers have very limited experience with electric drive in personal transportation. The Volt seems to get it: a typical looking vehicle/interior arrangement that works with the new drivetrain, powerful (esp. off the line), quiet, smooth. Oh, those are just the natural characteristics of electric drive itself when put into existing vehicle designs. Can anyone say built in luxury?
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
#185 LauraM
I agree with your statements. About the city car, New York and its suburbs and about Jackson, Mississippi. Beautiful city and many fine outstanding beautiful people.
I want to see GM produce a car like this. If they don’t they will miss a great and growing market. I, too, want to see the day when BEVs and EREVs rule the day. I hope it is soon. I probably will not live to see that day, but I hope to see a good part of the beginning. And, I will be keeping a eye on things from past the grave. So, watch out Statik.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
#187 Herm
OK. That clarifies it somewhat. Thanks. The two together (Capt Jack’s and yours) helps me to a better understanding.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
@N Riley 191
“I am not a beer drinker, but after that explanation, I think I will go have a beer. ”
AHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
Did you see Herms post #187
His explains better on effects in charge/discharge per C rate relative to time.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
#186 joe obrien
Exactly the way I feel. Keep it simple and as cheap as possible, but dependable. GM could sell a million of them around the world in no time.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
CJS
Weak sauce for a four wheeler, awesome for a two wheeler:
Brushed permanent magnet electric motor
Torque 50 ft-lbs (67.7 Nm)
Peak horsepower 23 horsepower
Peak electrical input 17,400 watts
lithium ion array
Capacity 2 kWh (58volts @ 35Ah)
Unladen vehicle power to weight ratio = 273.45 W / kg
For comparison, a Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06 is slightly less powerful for its unladen weight, at about 265 W /kg (MSN Autos) and it doesn’t make its maximum torque at 0 rpm.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
#193 CaptJackSparrow
You continue to amaze me with your knowledge. When I first started to notice your comments you were talking about house trailers and such. I just assumed you were speaking the truth and measured up the same way. But, you are a deep person with a lot of good knowledge. It just goes to show what I have said time and time again on this site. We have some of the best and brightest people that I would be proud to meet one day. Any time any of you are in Jackson, Mississippi look me up in the phone book. My name is Neal Riley and I would be proud to spend time with any of you. I am still hoping for a get together in New York one day. Lyle, when is that exactly?
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
C rates (more geek info)
edit,
Ah, never mind. It’s 5 o’clock somewhere.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Capt Jack, contrary to my last post, but I am just trying to “butter you” up for a free meal once we meet in New York or some place. Just kidding.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
#197 Carcus1
Even better explanation. They keep getting better every time someone explains it. Or maybe, just maybe, I am getting s-m-a-r-t-e-r. Thanks, I do appreciate the explanations.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
@N Riley 198
lol….
Thanks for that!
So there’s to be a “Get together”? I’ll have to shower or shave then. Or maybe both?
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
@carcus1 197
C rates (more geek info)
edit,
Ah, never mind. It’s 5 o’clock somewhere.
Not here. But I’ll still drink to that!!!
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Just take a bottle of bubble soap and a razor to your neighbor’s hot tub. He prolly won’t even notice all the hair and suds floating around later.
#198 N. Riley, You realize the Capn’s on a “liquid diet” , right? He’ll want to eat at the bar.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
CJS
My discharge rate depends on my use of the throttle, which is usually all over the map as I deperately have to try to mimic the weak, herky jerky gasser performance when in traffic to keep from piling into the erratically accelerating and frequent pausing gasser sluggards in front of me.
The charge rate is 1.5 or higher if double ganged.
As a user, what I care about is rather different. I have more acceleration and top speed than I need in my daily commuting and off road play and it takes anywhere from 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours to recharge if I’m at my minimum charge, and usually less time than that as I have plenty of extra range every day, but like to keep my power pack topped off (to 80%), very easily done with the hundred of millions of electrical outlets everywhere. I don’t need a thicker cable or different type of outlet or different rated power input to recharge faster, but I’ll let the electrical engineers in here figure that one out.
Obviously, what works best for me may be quite different than what works best for other drivers and other electric vehicles, but if it works for me, what’s wrong with your life if it doesn’t work for you?
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
@carcus1 202
Just take a bottle of bubble soap and a razor to your neighbor’s hot tub. He prolly won’t even notice all the hair and suds floating around later.
That’s true. Besides, the filters should catch mos of it before they get home.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Hypermiler says ;
Leo Motors tests electric vehicle conversion
New York, New York – Tests on a Kia converted to electric mode by Leo Motors has achieved speeds of 160 km/h and a range of 240 km on a single charge, going from zero to 96 km/h in six seconds.
The conversion kit by Leo Motors, a company based in Korea and the U.S., was fitted to a Kia Morning, a popular model in Korea. Leo said that its conversion kit can be used in any type of small to midsized vehicle platform for any manufacturer, and can convert electric vehicles for real-world use for both highway and city traffic.
The conversion uses a 60 kW water-cooled AC motor with controller, 30 kWh or 16 kWh lithium polymer power pack with multi-battery management system, and charger.
“This solution is more than a kit to convert small to midsized cars into electric vehicles,” said Robert Kang, chairman and CEO. “It is a real-world solution available today to the entire auto industry that enables car manufacturers to introduce electric vehicles of their own into the marketplace immediately.”
The kit is priced at US$20,000 16 kWh power pack; the company said it is available now on an order basis.
Are we missing something here or is GM giving us a song and dance routine again . What do you think Captain ?
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Capt Jack and carcus1
You are killing me. lol. Have a good weekend. Thanks for the explanations. Now, I have to explain it to my wife. She is going to ask me what I did today and if I learned anything new. Well, maybe just this once I better lie to her. No, baby, I didn’t do anything today and I didn’t learn anything new. Might be the best course to take. Don’t want waste a full weekend.
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
CaptJack @ 204
Just take a bottle of bubble soap and a razor to your neighbor’s hot tub. He prolly won’t even notice all the hair and suds floating around later.
That’s true. Besides, the filters should catch mos of it before they get home.
-
-
-
Later that evening:
“Honey, something’s wrong with the hot tub! It’s making a loud buzzing noise and something smells hot!:
“Did you check the filter?”
” . . hang on, . . . . eeewwwww!”
_________
N. Riley @ 206,
That sounds like a good plan. See ya.(don’t forget to ask her a lot of questions and then look interested)
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May 8th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
#205 Keith
I don’t know about the Capt, but I think we have been “danced” to by GM so much lately that I don’t know what to think. I am just sitting and waiting to see what exactly falls out of the tree.
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
It sure is good to go home after a long day and an even longer week still chuckling from some of the funny stuff I have gotten to read today. Thanks to all and to all a good day.
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
You guys have all missed the obvious options/alternative Volt.
What is to stop GM from producing various models of the volt? A performance version, a longer battery only version, a no range extender version etc etc etc. Now what would the eqation be if the ice was left out and say another 20Kw of batteries was added? Slightly less power can also be made available for people who don’t need/want all the available power so as to extend the range. I’m sure GM hasn’t given everything away just yet!!
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
@carcus1 207
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
They’ll probably wonder if it’s curly because of the heat or what……
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
The new Chevrolet website is promoting the “Spark” right alongside the “Volt”. If the Opel/Vauxhall Ampera platform is the same used on the Spark, then it sure makes sense that it would (or could) be all-electric. I hope they build it. I think it would sell well here in So Cal.
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
CaptJack @ 211
“They’ll probably wonder if it’s curly because of the heat or what……”
___________
Ahaaa! Ok. I can go a step lower.
Once they see that bottle of S&C shampoo you left, they’ll know…..
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/aa74a2abbd/short-and-curly-pubic-hair-shampoo-from-thaffner
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
@carcus1 214
AHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
Man you’re a fukinnutt!!!!!!!!!
OTFLMAO!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Aw mannn….
I think we hijacked the thread.
OOOpsie.
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
This kit uses the same LG cells that Volt is using, according to Hypermiler.
So add the $20k cost of the kit to a Chevy Cruze and you end up with something very close to what a Volt will be.. and it would be about $38k.. what a coincidence!
Good news is that apparently LG has the cells in production, and selling them to anyone
We know the electronics and motors will soon be mass produced in China and Korea, and the batteries too of course.. expect a flood of electric vehicles in the near future.
…………………….
#205
Keith Says:
The kit is priced at US$20,000 16 kWh power pack; the company said it is available now on an order basis.
Are we missing something here or is GM giving us a song and dance routine again . What do you think Captain ?
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Herm, I can’t find the kit listed on their website.
Gotta link?
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
@Keth 205
Are we missing something here or is GM giving us a song and dance routine again . What do you think Captain ?
They’re trying to recoup R&D costs. Also, the Volt has more cells on a per count bassis with GM’s proprietary home grown BMS which is most likely soo intgrated with the sys computer that it cost a crazy $$$.
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
#215 CaptJack
“Aw mannn….
I think we hijacked the thread.”
________________
Yeah, I should probably stop there. That’s gettin’ pretty close to the bottom for prime time.
Plus, it really is after 5 here.
Best way to open a beer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V85wleqv8zI&feature=related
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
#8 Jim I
Point one is so true. I don’t want a COW car. (Coffin On Wheels.)
http://tarpon.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/your-new-coffin-on-wheels/
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May 8th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Silly people so concerned about the safety of being in a cage. Motorcycle is where it’s at. Oh Americans, when will you grow up?
Still need that range extender for reliability. Until they get fast charging stations all over, pure electric vehicles are inferior.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
188 Adrian Says: And 221 Mark Z
Suburbs? Haha. Who would drive it? Not soccer Moms. I wouldn’t want to be hit by it by a truck.
So if you do get hit by a very large HUMMER in your SUV and get hurt, will you go out and by even a bigger HUMMER? You will of course be Safer in the bigger HUMMER right? That’s the principle of your thought.
And that everyone is why we have this grotesque sprawl of large SUV’s in the US. All these large SUV’s should be required to pay a HUGE premium on insurance because after all, they will cause even more damage to the smaller car and the person inside of it. It should also be taxed as Gas Hogs at a higher rate and registration because after all, when it get’s into an accident it will cause much more damage to the street or sidewalk or overpass it hits much much more than the smaller car.
That’s the most pathetic excuse for a car purchase.
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
If you want a car that you don’t have to worry about crashing into things…. then you shouldn’t be driving at all. At what point did you decide you can get through life without think and pay attention?
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May 8th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Captain,
This the link i followed from HyperMiler
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2009/04/23/leo-motors-tests-electric-vehicle-conversion.htm
I am going to Google it to see what else I can find .
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
224, count’em, 224 comments for a car that G.M. has denied, and that only rumor says will be built under the Vauxhall brand. A brand that may very well go the way of Pontiac/Saturn, esp. if Fiat buys G.M. European assets.
Even if it is built, it won’t be for the American market. Range too short, car too small, price too high. Laugh if you want but nothing is going to make a car this small powered by batteries sell in the U. S. The population density is too thin compared to the E.U. nations for this car with this range to make since, even at 8 dollars a gallon.
8 dollars a gallon WILL however sell a lot of Volt and Volt like vehicles, assuming there is anybody left that still has a job. Like it or not, our economy depends on affordable energy, without it recession, followed by depresssion, followed by war.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Anything that can be done to cut carbon if total carbon accounting can be calculated regarding total life expectancies of all the parts of the various BEV’s, and EREV’s is important. Why build a vehicle and send it out to the market if there are insufficient warranties to back everything up. Warranties (from an established and reputable firm) are the ways that these firms say;
“We are the ones taking the risk to back this product, part, and system to the extent that we Warrant these particular parts or systems or batteries for a certain number of years or miles. We have designed everything to last as long as possible, and, in so doing, the carbon generated in manufacture is very well offset to the best extent possible.”
I think that Warranty Years and Miles are generally underwieghted in considerations of consumers to the point of generalized-indifference when high technologies are concerned. There should be some strong cautions felt by consumers to ask
“Of all the parts in this vehicle, exactly what is Warranted for how long and how many miles and just who is it that stands behind those Warranties?” “Let’s list anything that does not have a long history of being proven in the market by many years of industry standards.” With BEV’s this is an extremely serious a thing to do.
If you do that, you will more likely be deterred from making a very highly risky choice.
This is why I think Voltec vehicles will be accepted immediately and with tremendous confidence.
Dan Petit Austin TX.
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May 8th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
some links on the LG parts kit to build a BEV
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/leo-motors-20090422.html
http://www.leomotors.com/
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/04/21/457623.html
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Finally a real EV. Not a Volt hybrid. Gm getting smarter? Maybe…but too late.
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
It amazes me that the first 30 people to post here every day are always so positive about everything GM annouces. Too bad they have as much credibility as GM -none, zero. first we get the Volt fantasy, and now just in time for 2022 model year, an EV! I can hardly wait, because I and most of the posters here, will be long dead when GM brings it to market.
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
WSJ reporting today:
-Toyota China quarterly sales DOWN 17%
-General Motors China quarterly sales UP 17%
Well done GM!
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May 8th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Thundersky LifePo4 battery test
Long thread by DIYers testing 200Ah batteries (10/10/08 to present) here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/200ah-lifepo4-battery-testing-thread-21887.html
Looks like the results were good, but all info is on new batteries.
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If these prices continue to drop ($350/kwh now) , and the batteries can hold up for 5 or 6 years, then that should be enough to give $3 gas some serious competition.
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May 8th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Off topic,
Nice piece on a diesel electric prototype Citroen Hypnos:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/in_the_showroom/article6205646.ece
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May 8th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
The determinant of which is better : Voltec or battery-only EV has always hinged upon basically two things, and they both concern
batteries : price, meaning total cost of ownership – purchase price plus lifespan and 2) speed of recharge. The advancements demonstrated by MIT and licensed to A123 Systems is pretty safe bet to satisfy 2 and there are indicarions that it may assist 1 as
well.
This gives rise to possibilities – elimination of the need for range extender hardware, a real engineering simplifier and cost reducer.
Hopefully, we will soon learn the full extent of those advances and
whether they will come to market as quickly as estimated (within 2 years).
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May 8th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
234!
=D~