People often speculate, wonder, and hope GM will surprise us and launch the Volt sooner than the publicized November 2010 date.
I had a discussion with the Volt’s lead engineer Andrew Farah about that.
Is it possible you could go to production and begin to sell Volts before Nov 2010?
I don’t think we can get the assembly plant cranked up before that. We will do our presaleable validation builds and all that, but we time it so that all our tooling and the investment is available just in time to meet the schedule.
Right now to make a major pull ahead on all of the tooling would be unlikely. Could I speed up all the tooling and pay four times as much for it? Sure. I think we’ve got other things to do. We need some time to do the development.
By the end of 2009 we’ll have over 80 IVers. We will continue to build the vehicle in volume, by early next year we will surpass some startups and have more out on the road and built. We need all that feedback to come in to get refinement up to the last minute.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 5th, 2009 at 6:15 am and is filed under Launch. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
May 5th, 2009 (6:17 am)This isn’t good news, but it isn’t bad news, either. If it means the Volt rolling down driveways is slightly better off than it would be with an early release, then by all means, wait ’til November. This one needs to be a home run, not a double off the wall.
On the flip side, if the car is ready, I want to see something special done. Get some celebrities driving the thing. Parade it. He said production won’t be ramped up early, otherwise this would be the perfect excuse to send single cars to dealerships all over.
Maybe he was just answering the question, but it sounded like the Volt being ready before November is a real possibility.
Let’s hope that’s the case, and they publicize to the masses right this time. But first..
LGTVWOTR! NPNS!! =D~~
May 5th, 2009 (6:18 am)Ok second! LOL
November is good. Right on schedule.
May 5th, 2009 (6:39 am)Saying “GM will not sell Volts before November 2010″ is not the same as saying “GM will have Volts for sale in November 2010.”
May 5th, 2009 (6:41 am)Surpassing some startups…wonder if he was talking about Tesla.
May 5th, 2009 (6:46 am)No need to use GM’s money inefficiently paying more for tooling to get it done ahead of schedule. November is fine and right on schedule.
May 5th, 2009 (6:46 am)You people in the USA might never have heard about the Renault Laguna II. The Renault Laguna II was “developed faster than any car in the history before! Just 18 months”… well, people who bought it did notice it, too…
Thus I rather wait until 2010…2011…or whenever the Volt finally turns up here in Europe. But I want a well-tested, well-built, preferably non-exploding car!
I’m sure GM will use its fleet of prototype cars in 2010 for all kinds of publicity stunts. I’m pretty sure Jay Leno will end up driving around in one. And Tom Hanks (wasn’t he the one who had an EV-1 before?). And perhaps even our own Lyle
May 5th, 2009 (7:03 am)Another big factor that many of us forget is that the Volt project is ambitious because GM is developing two major technologies concurrently; the car and the battery pack.
To simulate 10 years of battery life, GM is testing batteries 24/7 for 2+ years at accelerated degradation rates (basically testing at high temperatures in isolated chambers and extrapolating the results back to normal temperatures).
So even if the car and the assembly line were ready, would GM want to take a chance on selling the car before all the final battery tests were complete?
May 5th, 2009 (7:05 am)I don’t see anything wrong with this timetable. My only concern is that November is a cold month and this may not be very good for the Volt.
May 5th, 2009 (7:09 am)All I really want to know is what their rollout plan is. Or, more specifically, when would I have a chance of buying one in my local area?
May 5th, 2009 (7:17 am)Where’s the clock!?
May 5th, 2009 (7:51 am)yes the volt will come late but it will be latest.the volt will be a better option even better than a fisker karma
May 5th, 2009 (7:55 am)Well, at least we aren’t getting blind statements about making the deadline, we are starting to formulate and verbalize the excuses now:
–I don’t think we can get the assembly plant cranked up before that
–investment is available just in time to meet the schedule
–I think we’ve got other things to do. We need some time to do the development
The beauty moment, is of course, “Could I speed up all the tooling and pay four times as much for it? Sure.”
—No, no you can’t. You don’t have the budget or money to do anything right now…you don’t have the money to build the engines, you don’t have the money to give LG a production contract to start getting ready to actually make and deliver the cells, you can’t afford to build a assembly plant for those batteries, etc.
…and barring all those things, you don’t have the authority to ‘speed up tooling’, even Fritz doesn’t…because anything over a 10 million dollar investment has to go before the PTFoA.
I’m doubting Mr. Farrah wants to attempt to do anything that might put him in from of those guys…and I doubt his boss’ wants to hear about any ‘expenditures’ at all right now.
Anybody see GM going to the PTFoA to ask to spend money on this project while they are doing the GSB thing? Meanwhile the clock just keeps on ticking…year and a half to go. Right now the only thing that would convince me they can even sell a few copies in the first half of 2011 is they show me the money.
Spend GM…on anything, anything at all here. So far, all we have had was press releases that have been retracted later. Give LG the 100 million (or whatever) it wants up front to get started. Show us any progress on the domestic Family 0 engine. Heck, even pay some dudes at a local Michigan cleaning company to sweep out the Hamtramck line where the Volt is going to be, or buy a new fax machine for the office.
This is a great article Lyle, you did well to get it. This will be the first of the ‘I feel it slipping away in the back of my mind’ moment for most people. Good to ease people into it.
May 5th, 2009 (7:56 am)How far behind the Volt release will the Cadillac converj release be?
May 5th, 2009 (7:59 am)I agree with Neil @ #9!
Will I be able to buy one of the Gen-1 Volts in late 2010 or early 2011????
Youngstown, OH would be a great place to have the official red carpet sales event for the Volt!!!!
Statik, Statik, Statik….. Go get a jelly doughnut, and relax. It is too early for you to be so negative!
May 5th, 2009 (8:00 am)This isn’t good news, but it isn’t bad news, either.
***************************************************************************************
Joe says
GM has never deviated from their scheduled date.
Hey, let wait for GM to say something different before calling it news.
May 5th, 2009 (8:03 am)#14 Jim I says:
I agree with Neil @ #9!
Will I be able to buy one of the Gen-1 Volts in late 2010 or early 2011????
Youngstown, OH would be a great place to have the official red carpet sales event for the Volt!!!!
=======================
Well, if you believe in press releases, I have to believe if the Volt is launched in Canada in July 2011 (as they ‘released’), that would be the end of the limited rollout…at which time you would likely have one available in Ohio at that time too.
May 5th, 2009 (8:03 am)@ #8, Jim Mbongo:
November isn’t all that cold in California, from what I understand, and that is where most of the early cars will likely be sold, just based on population density if nothing else, and consequently where the Volt will likely garner much of it’s early attention.
I used to wonder why so many convertibles were launched late in the year. It seemed rather backwards from up here where we are buried in snow half the year, until someone mentioned “California”. Ah. Bigger market than all of Canada combined. Largest single state GDP in the entire US of A. Car crazy population. No snow. Silly me.
Just guessing.
May 5th, 2009 (8:16 am)Few people buy cars during the holiday quarter.
The best time to launch the Volt would be April 26th.
Most people will have received their TAX refund and the ones who paid on the 15th, would have had a two week breather to recover and forget.
NPNS!
May 5th, 2009 (8:25 am)I would have to agree with Statik and #18 Nelson. The release will slip because of one thing, Auto Show. GM will want to show this off at Detroit before it hits the show room.
Ah, April 2010 the last year of the Bush tax cuts that jump start the economy in 2003. Spend it now, because taxes will be climbing here in the USA due to a certain 10 trillion dollar debt…
May 5th, 2009 (8:37 am)#12 statik
Heck, even pay some dudes at a local Michigan cleaning company to sweep out the Hamtramck line where the Volt is going to be, or buy a new fax machine for the office.
————————————————————————-
Also, I would think that anyone doing business with GM would want their money “paid in full” before even starting a job. Or join the other debt holders with their hands out.
May 5th, 2009 (8:44 am)OFF TOPIC
tomorrow morning I am going to take a few days of holiday.
NOTE TO SELF——-DO NOT READ STATIC’S POST PRIOR TO STARTING A HAPPY TIME.
May 5th, 2009 (8:48 am)Lyle…your red X is much too small. The X should cover the entire month unless you know something that we do not.
May 5th, 2009 (8:52 am)21 Jeff
Also, I would think that anyone doing business with GM would want their money “paid in full” before even starting a job. Or join the other debt holders with their hands out.
—————
That would be nice, but that’s not how GM does business. For equipment suppliers they USED to give 90% AFTER delivery (no money upfront ever). Now they wont pay for several months after delivery (sure), and they still want there 3 year warranty crap. We basically told them F.U.
I like GM, especially the engineers. I just hate GM NA purchasing. They are awful, and everyone knows it.
May 5th, 2009 (8:57 am)#18 – Nelson Says:
“The best time to launch the Volt would be April 26th.”
I agree – only becasue April 26 is my Birthday and that would make a really nice Birthday gift to myself!!
BTW GM – My 10K Downpayment has grown to 12.5K….. Buy low sell high! If this market keeps up i will have my 35K when it is released in Iowa…
May 5th, 2009 (8:59 am)It is way more important to have a perfect car than it is to rush it to market.
GM has build junk in the past. The Volt has to be as close to perfect as possible. Don’t rush perfection. November 2010 will be here soon enough and most of us here won’t get one at that time anyway.
May 5th, 2009 (8:59 am)#21 old man says:
OFF TOPIC
tomorrow morning I am going to take a few days of holiday.
NOTE TO SELF——-DO NOT READ STATIC’S POST PRIOR TO STARTING A HAPPY TIME.
==============================
Good advice for anyone.
/have fun
May 5th, 2009 (9:04 am)My guess is GM will keep their schedule, but greatly reduce the scope. Maybe they will have a production line running in Nov. 2010, but the full supply chain will not be there. Probably won’t be able to get anywhere close to the “target” of 10,000 units the first year. There’s just not enough money / crazy investors to go around (unless you count the government as a “crazy investor”). It’s more important politically to say the Volt is “in production” than to have the full supply chain working efficiently. Oh well, its still a start, even if its a slow, ugly start. I can wait a couple more years to get mine.
May 5th, 2009 (9:06 am)#23 Kdawg
I am retired from the machine tool business and I assure you I would not accept a P O from GM unless it carried a full price guarantee by the government. [small knee mill--------maybe] but not any thing large with a long lead time or special to GM’s needs
#26 Statik
Thanks!! If I was going to be near you I would try to meet the man that can drive me up the wall in one post and then make me laugh with another.
May 5th, 2009 (9:12 am)Statik, IMHO you are reading far too much into the quote.
As I read it “Could I speed up all the tooling and pay four times as much for it? Sure” is just his way of saying “and pigs may fly;” for the reasons you lay out.
I don’t see anything here that makes me feel (more) like “it’s slipping away.” In the back of my mind, that fear has always been there to some extent. It’s still possible that GM might die with the first Volts half assembled on the Hamatrak line, but there’s no point in dwelling on things we can’t control.
Eat a doughnut for me, while you’re at it.
May 5th, 2009 (9:12 am)Is mid November the date they will be accepting orders for the Volt or the date they will be delivering the first Volts to customers?
When will I be able to place my order, and what color options will we have? Hoping for a nice Green for my Green car.
May 5th, 2009 (9:14 am)Won’t launch early, but otherwise still on track?
Nothing wrong with that. Go Volt!!
May 5th, 2009 (9:17 am)Let’s get back to reality. It does not matter what they say about any 2010 schedule or other events. Everything at GM is short term right now, waiting for what happens at the end of the month, whether it is bankruptcy or some other plan that emerges. Until that happens, no one at GM and probably no one from the White House is in a position to lay out realistic plans or a committed time line for the Volt or for any other new GM product that requires big money.
What I take Mr Farah’s comments as saying is that he knows the Volt will not happen prior to the original November 2010 dates. For the moment he is trying to get some integration vehicles underway sometime soon. Then he’ll see what happens next. That’s sensible. We are kidding ourselves to be thinking in terms of his going beyond that at this particular moment. There is no one who can commit.
May 5th, 2009 (9:22 am)Don’t act in haste only to repent in leisure.
stay on schedule
build them right
be successful
May 5th, 2009 (9:22 am)Is it so unbelievable that GM will stick to the announced schedule? One problem with the November 2010 schedule is that if any “real” problems crop up, the schedule is shot anyway. Let just let GM do the best job they can and hopefully hit the target as early in November 2010 as possible. GO GM. GO, GO Volt.
May 5th, 2009 (9:39 am)#8 Jim Mbongo
“I don’t see anything wrong with this timetable. My only concern is that November is a cold month and this may not be very good for the Volt.”
—————————-
Cold for some, but not for all. November is generally a mildly cold month in Mississippi and much of the South and Southwest. Florida and much of California have very nice Novembers. I know you were probably speaking of where you live. November is as good as any other month to launch a vehicle. We just want it to be “right”. All of us.
May 5th, 2009 (9:40 am)Sorry Tag. Looks like you’re not going to see your July 4th 2010 release! But hey, the revolution took a few years.
#25 Rashiid says “It is way more important to have a perfect car than it is to rush it to market.”
Let’s not delude ourselves that it will be perfect. No car is perfect, and a first generation Voltec will have its share of issues. But … you’ll be able to fill up in your garage.
#12 statik — When rolling out a new product you have a release date, quality, and features. You get two of the three. It’s amazing someone can be so negative about staying on schedule. I’ve always thought that being on schedule and rolling a new product out in an intelligent way were good things.
May 5th, 2009 (9:45 am)With all of the latest announcements of plant closures the tooling companies should have excess capacity. They should do the right thing for the American people and expedite the tooling without an extra fee. They are benefiting from the (Tax payer) stimulus funds and should give something back to us.
NPNS!
May 5th, 2009 (9:47 am)I wonder how everything was quickly retooled to produce armaments during WW II. It took just a year or so …
May 5th, 2009 (9:49 am)#12 Statik
I don’t know that I would want to be as pessimistic as you were in your comment, but I do think the schedule very well could slip due to the GSB. It is very possible to not see but a token shipment of Volts in November 2010. May not even see any until March or April 2011. As you know, I am quite sure, a lot depends on the GSB. Chrysler is the test bed for GM and what the government learns with Chrysler will be applied to GM’s GSB. Not much time separating the two GSBs to learn much, I would think. It all depends on the government finding a bankruptcy judge they can “bully” into doing the things they want to see accomplished. Kind of like how the government bullied banking officials with the TARP funds. Someone may very likely get to see the inside of a jail cell over some of the things that went down in the last three months. Change ………….. Yes…………
May 5th, 2009 (9:53 am)Does this timetable include the shutdown of most of GM for the next 3 months and a major bankruptcy soon? I’m thinking late 2011-early 2012 might be more realistic after all the shakedown is done.
May 5th, 2009 (9:55 am)#18 Nelson
“The best time to launch the Volt would be April 26th.
Most people will have received their TAX refund and the ones who paid on the 15th, would have had a two week breather to recover and forget.”
———————————-
Just joking, but if two weeks is made up of 11 days, how many weeks would there be in your year? lol.
May 5th, 2009 (9:57 am)#38 nataraj
Four reasons.
First, at that time we were the worlds largest builder of machine tools
Second, Orders were placed on a cost plus basis
Third, Defense orders were put ahead of all others
Fourth, All of the U.S.A. was behind the effort
May 5th, 2009 (10:00 am)#21 Old Man
tomorrow morning I am going to take a few days of holiday.
————————–
Have a good holiday and don’t even think about Statik while enjoying yourself. That’s what I do. Most of the time it works. Hehe.
May 5th, 2009 (10:04 am)#17 kgurnsey and #35 N Riley
I totally agree with you both guys. I live in Ottawa, Ontario (Canada), and Novembers are usually very cold. My point is that if he car does not peform accordingly at its launch, because of the cold weather, this may be catastrophic for GM and the future of the Chevu Volt. Like most of you, I have been following it since the first day and I want to see it succeds. This will be my next car.
May 5th, 2009 (10:06 am)We’ll just get Congress to change the calendar. It worked for Emperor Julius. Call and write your House representative and Senators now – we want November 10, 2010 to be in the past by law, effective immediatey.
How it’s done.
May 5th, 2009 (10:07 am)statik Says:
May 5th, 2009 at 7:55 am
Well, at least we aren’t getting blind statements about making the deadline, we are starting to formulate and verbalize the excuses now:
–I don’t think we can get the assembly plant cranked up before that
–investment is available just in time to meet the schedule
–I think we’ve got other things to do. We need some time to do the development ‘
————-
LOL – OK, Mister “glass is half empty ” ! Let’s see you put your money where your mouth is.
If GM begins producing saleable Volts by Novemeber 30, 2009, will you post a public apology to GM and Bob Lutz for your endless whining and poor-mouthing of GM over the last 18 months ?
On the other hand, if GM fails to do so, I will agree to post a sincere retraction of any doubts I ever had of your immense wisdom and foresight. I will also cede to you the title of Galactic Overlord, and heir to the throne of the Universal Overseer.
Do we have a deal ? I do believe you to be a gentleman, and a man of your word.
May 5th, 2009 (10:08 am)DonC@36 re Independence Day release
Ahh, they fooled you too. This is just a very cleaver misinformation program to lull the competitors to sleep and then POUNCE with the early release (g).
Well, maybe not, but I’m betting that I’m not the only optimist on this board. I’m just the terminally optimistic one.
Be well,
Tag
PS Statik is a mole (hee hee)(jk)
LJGTVWOTR!!! ********NPNS!******** (whispers) Independence Day release, 2010.
May 5th, 2009 (10:12 am)#24 Nike D
Buy low sell high! If this market keeps up i will have my 35K when it is released in Iowa…
—————————–
I wish you luck, but I would not count on it. You might better put that savings into something really solid. What that is, I don’t know anymore. Some real issues are going to arise later this year, but probably by mid-year 2010 with the stock market and the economy in general. We are going to start seeing the effect of the spending programs and it is not going to be pretty. We will have some mighty big bills to pay and no money to pay them with. Everything is going to take another major hit. The government is going to be “forced” to step in and take over much more of the economy and businesses. At least that’s the plan. At this point, everything is working as planned. No real road blocks on the horizon except possible legal troubles that are just now beginning to surface. Defensive tactics are now starting to be worked out to prevent those legal problems from interfering with the grand plan. It will be a new, wonderful world, my friend. Just you wait.
Oh, yeah! If you find that “safe” place for your investments, please, please let the rest of us know. If not, rest assured the government will have a sound plan to use your investments.
Now I am sounding as pessimistic as Statik. Oh, no!
May 5th, 2009 (10:24 am)I purchased a new car this past October because I believed it would be 2012 before I would be able to see one at my local dealership in quantity enough to supply demand. I don’t want to pay “through the nose” to some dealer or fight crowds trying to get one. So, I figured it would be a safe bet to purchase the new car and when I could get the Volt, let my wife have my 2009 car. Only problem with that is I had to use some of my money I had saved to pay down on the 2009 ($15,000 to be exact). I know that is a large down payment, but I am already over one-third of the way of replacing the down payment in new savings.
What I am trying to tell you is that if you need a new car, go ahead and get it. Don’t sit on the sidelines and wait for the Volt. I suspect that many of you will be disappointed with the wait time if you do try to wait it out. Buy now and enjoy that new car or truck while you wait. Plus, it helps our economy. And every one knows our economy needs just a little bit of help right now.
May 5th, 2009 (10:36 am)#49 N Riley
Totally agree with you. If I had to buy now I would buy a Ford Fusion hibred. In fact if there was no Volt I would purchase now even though my Buick is running great.
May 5th, 2009 (10:39 am)#38 Nataraj
I wonder how everything was quickly retooled to produce armaments during WW II. It took just a year or so …
————————————-
Different government/business climate. The relationship between business and government is much different today. Back then the government asked private industry to do a job and stood back while the job was being done. Private industry rolled up its sleeves and came out swinging. The government and business cooperated. Today the government tries to control everything and will not allow any joint cooperation. It has to be done the way the government wants or you are out of business. So many hoops to jump through and each hoop is a challenge that takes time and money. Government stands as an obstacle to business today. It is all politics and you have to play the game or lose. Many businesses don’t have the ability to play the game and are up against an entrenched foe. A foe that holds all the cards, I might add.
May 5th, 2009 (10:47 am)Much sooner than Nov 2010 GM (or the “new” GM) is going to have to make real adjustments in its struggle to sink or swim. They are going to have to make decisions based on real products with real performance and real price points that can really sell.
It is very late in the game for GM to still be completely mum about any performance results from the range extender portion of the volt (the only portion that matters). No doubt they are having all the same problems AC propulsion and anybody else that tried this route has had. And it doesn’t look like they’ve found any magic cures.
What we’re witnessing now is the legacy of Wagoner, Lutz and the like. They just couldn’t admit how bad they effed up with the EV1 Nimh fiasco and the Volt was their “moon shot” to try and blast past the whole mess. It’s a PR stunt gone bad, and it’s turning into a tar baby.
The longer this goes with out any real world data from GM . . the more likely it is that I’m right, and all the volt fans are in for a big letdown.
May 5th, 2009 (10:52 am)I’m thinking Jan 2011. Why? GSB and in mfgr, when you ramp up, you need to buy all your parts first, in home fabricate on some but first thing is first. You need your parts and NO vendor is going to deliver without payment first and NO $$$ will be available till after GSB.
OK, back to my Kahlua & Coffee
May 5th, 2009 (10:55 am)statik:
IMHO, you have done a great service for all of us over these past many months. Holding the mirror of reality up in front of those of us who do not wish to see it never adds to one’s popularity.
Remember the head of OMB who got fired for saying that the Iraq war might cost $200 billion? Or how about General Shinseki, the Army Chief of Staff, who got forced into retirement for saying that it might take 400,000 troops to secure Iraq after the invasion?
Stay with it. You are doing valuable work.
I read in yesterday’s paper that Ford is back at #2 in sales in the US last month, as Toyota sales have tanked, including the Prius down 69%. Gas prices temporarily down = high mileage car sales tank, LOL. We never learn. Maybe GM will time the Volt release perfectly to coincide with the next gas spike, LOL.
May 5th, 2009 (10:58 am)@carcus1 52
“Much sooner than Nov 2010 GM (or the “new” GM) is going to have to make real adjustments in its struggle to sink or swim. They are going to have to make decisions based on real products with real performance and real price points that can really sell. ”
I think the most real product should be a BEV version.
The most KISS version of the Volt should be selling now. This would be the non Genset version, a FULL BEV at 60AER. This is easily achievable by the simple omission of the genset and all its required gutts for the ICE, i.e. engine, generator, fuel tank, starter, etc…..
They have the product already and it’s been tested. Just call it something else like “Coulomb” or some sh|t like that. Or ‘Chrstopher “Coulomb” US’…Unchartered territory for GM…..getit?……..hello?
lol….. =oP
May 5th, 2009 (11:08 am)#39 N Riley:
“Kind of like how the government bullied bank officials with the TARP funds.”???
We gave them a few paltry tens of billions of dollars to save them from their own folly, and now we have the gall to tell them to do what we want? Poor babies. After all they have done for us.
#51 N Riley:
“It has to be done the way government wants or you are out of business.” ??
So that’s why AIG, Citi, Lehman Bros., Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, B of A, et al, were able to drag the economy into the biggest meltdown in 60+ years, right? Too much government supervision?
My friend, as you know, I agree you on the majority of issues discussed here, but these political statements just lower the level, again IMHO.
May 5th, 2009 (11:10 am)#55 CaptJack,
Agreed.
The BEV concepts from established and start ups are popping out so fast now it’s hard to keep up. Last week there was a full page add in the USA today for electric vehicles from some company I’d never even heard of.
If GM wanted to get a BEV going it would be a relatively quick process.
May 5th, 2009 (11:14 am)#50 Old Man
The Ford Fusion hybrid would be a great purchase, in my opinion. As a matter of fact, I think any Ford product would be a fantastic purchase at this time. And this comes from someone who has not owned a Ford since his very first purchase of a 1956 Ford car in 1964. I have always been a GM fan since then, but I am fast converting to a Ford fan. Depends on what happens with GM over the next 18 months. If Ford stays away from government and UAW ownership, I will convert completely. That is a promise.
May 5th, 2009 (11:14 am)Hey, I have a crazy question and it’s on SMOG tests again. You know how when the technician runs the test and you see him/her ramp the RPM up and matain it in a window? Exactly how are they going to test the Volt? The tail pipe will have nothing for it to read. How would that make it a valid test?
There will be no possible way for them to meet the RPM “Window”.
Just curious….
May 5th, 2009 (11:15 am)#46 Guido says:
(in response to Statik)
LOL – OK, Mister “glass is half empty ” ! Let’s see you put your money where your mouth is.
If GM begins producing saleable Volts by Novemeber 30, 2009, will you post a public apology to GM and Bob Lutz for your endless whining and poor-mouthing of GM over the last 18 months ?
On the other hand, if GM fails to do so, I will agree to post a sincere retraction of any doubts I ever had of your immense wisdom and foresight. I will also cede to you the title of Galactic Overlord, and heir to the throne of the Universal Overseer.
Do we have a deal ? I do believe you to be a gentleman, and a man of your word.
======================
If GM delivers even 1 Volt off the production assembly line at anytime in 2010. ie) VIN #0001 going to any customer I will offer my sincere apology for my, ‘endless whining and poor-mouthing’ without hesitation. Heck I want to buy it, so it is a apology with a great perk for me…although I don’t have a million-odd dollars lying around to bid on it at Barrett-Jackson (ala the $385K paid for the Camaro)
However, your apology is not needed if they don’t hit it. I claim no satisfaction in GM missing its goals, and I won’t be rubbing anyone’s face in it..or bringing up their conduct towards me or others. I understand people are very passionate about this subject and my posts (and some other’s as well) can be taken as a threat to what they hold close.
——
As for the event itself of car #1…generally they have a big show about it…like they did for the Camaro. I assume the same for the Volt.
You can watch Camaro VIN #0001 come off the line, driven by its owner Rick Hendrick here (as I mentioned earlier, he bought the right to have number 1 at Barrett-Jackson for $385K):
http://blog.al.com/blogoftomorrow/2009/03/rick_hendrick_drives_the_first.html
May 5th, 2009 (11:16 am)2010 or 2011… Either way we have a long way to go and a whole lot more of these stimulating conversations to enjoy.
May 5th, 2009 (11:18 am)Hey if your in Europe, we have a ‘good news’ talking head moment for you if your looking for a Volt!
Your ‘Ampera’…production is still on the way, and begins in late 2011.
First I have heard any recent confirmation…and I can’t remember them ever specifically saying when the Euro spec models were going to get built.
———
Earth2tech.com(whatever that is), has this to say:
The Ampera is being developed in the U.S., and GM remains firm on its plans to bring the Ampera to the EU. “We don’t expect any disruptions to our plans,” GM spokeswoman Natalie Johnson told us in an email today. Neither does the Opel team. Communications director Rene Kreis reiterated that Ampera production is on schedule to begin in late 2011.
According to J.D. Powers and Associates powertrain analyst Mike Omotoso, GM doesn’t have much choice in this. Referring to the Volt, he said, “They’ve pretty much staked their reputation on it.” And given that the Ampera is essentially a Volt with an Opel badge (plus some tweaks to the charging system to make it compatible with EU outlets), Omotoso said that as long as GM manages to go ahead with the Volt in the U.S., “they will sell it as the Ampera in Europe.”
http://earth2tech.com/2009/05/04/despite-opel-sale-gm-remains-committed-to-euro-volt/
May 5th, 2009 (11:21 am)Many think that corporate economics are the same thing as their personal kitchen-table economics. If that were true, we would all still be living in caves, and have big rocks as the kitchen table and chairs.
The companies who want to do business with GM, (including me, mine), come forward if the circumstances are right and the upper management of GM concretely believe that there is something of true value that I or my company can bring to GM. It is us that must proactively prove that we have something of critical value to GM, its employees, and the Voltec customer that is of clear and lasting value to GM.
Therefore, it is never the linear-logic of immediate kitchen-table economics regarding credit availability of GM which is the factor here whatsoever. Rather, it is whether or not the tens of thousands of companies that wish to provide GM their products and services IF and only IF it is GM’s sole election to accept those services and products. It is us who must take the risk to provide for GM as vendors, to constantly prove ourselves to be the very best in GM’s interest for whatever GM needs at the time. And, if there is at any time any other competing product or service that serves GM’s needs better than mine or theirs, then we are to respect that competitors advancements as more appropriate to GM.
We have plenty of other opportunities in our business plans, so, GM need not necessarily have all sorts of money up front. In addition, there is a compelling moral force to assist in the advancement of technologies however we are able, for the benefit and survival of future generations via carbon reduction technologies. And, ***very*** especially for voltec vehicles.
Dan Petit Austin TX.
May 5th, 2009 (11:22 am)“Galactic Overlord”, now that’s a cool title & offer!
In regards to delivery date, I believe the old commercial went, “We will sell no wine before it’s time”. Keep the delivery schedule as is & on time.
If the VOLT ships and doesn’t perform as promised, the remaining confidence customers still have will disappear forever!
Go EV!
May 5th, 2009 (11:23 am)There are REALLY a lot of negative people posting.
GM will not produce that car until they are satisfied the battery will perform.
They say their schedule is Nov. 2010.
What is wrong with that? A PERT chart has been prepared long ago that shows milestone dates and those dates have to be met to move ahead.
Part of that chart says “Buy sideframe R/H on XY date”. Those things have been done and it would cost great sums to advance that date.
Be patient-hope they can accomplish the programming so that it will satisfy 99% of those who write here and if they do, give them credit for having done so.
May 5th, 2009 (11:23 am)@CorvetteGuy 61
“2010 or 2011… Either way we have a long way to go and a whole lot more of these stimulating conversations to enjoy.”
11/2010 to 2011 is only 2 months. Long enough to complete GSB.
Server Error in Application “Default Web Site”
May 5th, 2009 (11:24 am)WTF?
May 5th, 2009 (11:26 am)#59 CaptJack,
” Exactly how are they going to test the Volt? ”
_______________
Purely a guess, but I’d venture that they run the battery down to customer depletion and then do all the normal tests. Some of the “white papers” on AC propulsions range extender VW notes that they had problems meeting emissions because of all the start/stops on the range extender engine.
p.s. I discovered my computer had memorized an erroneous mail entry (space in front, hard to notice) which was not letting me post (?)
May 5th, 2009 (11:29 am)#56 Noel Park
Maybe you read more into what I said than what I said. I was being somewhat pessimistic, I agree. It seems to be the general feeling for a lot of people in today’s world. The bullying statement is based on news reports currently being circulated about what some in the government did to force banks to take funds when they did not want them or even need them. Plus, stories about how the auto task force bullied Chrysler to bend them to their will. And I think some on the task force members may be facing some legal problems due to some under-handed (and illegal) dealings.
Maybe it is political to point out problems with the way the government is doing things. It all depends on whose bull is being gored, I suppose.
In another comment you mentioned Prius sales as being down until gas prices go back up. Well, they are certainly on the rise again. We have seen over $.30 in increased prices over the last couple of weeks from our suppliers. Prices are back to over $2.00 per gallon for regular gas at a lot of stations and the ones not there yet are close to it. In three months we will be back to $4.00 per gallon gasoline again, unless something changes to stop it. I don’t see anything anyone is doing to stop it. Of course, this bodes well for Toyota and Honda with their new hybrids on the market or nearly on the market. Good for the Volt if it keeps going like this. $5.00 per gallon could be here in a year or so. Maybe more. We can hope, can’t we?
May 5th, 2009 (11:33 am)#49 NRiley
“What I am trying to tell you is that if you need a new car, go ahead and get it. Don’t sit on the sidelines and wait for the Volt. I suspect that many of you will be disappointed with the wait time if you do try to wait it out. Buy now and enjoy that new car or truck while you wait. Plus, it helps our economy. And every one knows our economy needs just a little bit of help right now.”
Helping the economy or a struggling car company should be the last thing a family considers when looking at their finances. For the vast majority of people in this recession, buying a new car is probably the worst thing they can do. It is always cheaper to keep the car you have now, even if it needs repairs. The initial depreciation hit and rapid value decline is too much to take on right now for most Americans, and sitting on the sidelines is the best thing they can do for themselves.
May 5th, 2009 (11:34 am)#60 Statik
I would be happy to offer GM $100,000 for the Volt with serial number 00001. GM, are you listening?
Statik, I would like to echo Noel Park’s comments (#54). We know you are doing us a service. I thank you for that. If GM does make a customer delivery in 2010, I do not expect or want an apology for anything you have said. Now, what you say in the future may change my mind. Never can tell about you. Haha.
May 5th, 2009 (11:46 am)#55 Capt Jack,
“They have the product already and it’s been tested. Just call it something else like “Coulomb” or some sh|t like that. Or ‘Chrstopher “Coulomb” US’…Unchartered territory for GM…..getit?……..hello?
lol….. =oP”
___________
I got it.
Though I think I’d prefer latin over spanish, maybe something like “mea culpa”? Or for the more hip crowd, “my bad”.
(it’s got more flavor to it than “EV2″)
May 5th, 2009 (11:47 am)I heard we are still on track. I also heard a semi- sarcastic sure we could move it up… with a big bucket of money… That’s the kind of thing I’d say (Although sadly I only have a small pocket with some change on the bottom…)
We have repeated complaints about the range extender not being shown at this point, I still say that if I had any input on the project that I’d concentrate on the new technology that needs the most development. GM can build a good reliable fuel efficent gasoline engine. (I have one) Wait and integrate it into the final body style and don’t touch it in the mule. (A waste of time and money)
Fall 2010 works for me too.
May 5th, 2009 (11:51 am)@carcus1 72
How bout my favorite at H( . Y . )TERs…
“UNA MAS”
Or
……
How do you say “And One!” in Latin?
May 5th, 2009 (11:55 am)statik #62
Hey if your in Europe, we have a ‘good news’ talking head moment for you if your looking for a Volt!
Your ‘Ampera’…production is still on the way, and begins in late 2011
_____________________
Looks like the Ampera can be lined up to be the first version incorporating Gen II Volt features if they can get what they learned from the early Volt’s out of their laptops and onto the Ampera development critical path.
May 5th, 2009 (11:56 am)#62 Statik
If the Opel Ampera is still on schedule, what does it mean to it if Fiat buys GM’s European division? Is Opel part of GM’s European division? I don’t know the answer to these questions. Maybe you do.
May 5th, 2009 (11:57 am)CaptJack @ 74
“How do you say “And One!” in Latin?”
____________________________
That one’s tough to translate, but “more beer” is
“oremay, eerbay”
/i got skills
May 5th, 2009 (12:03 pm)carcus1 #72 “Though I think I’d prefer latin over spanish, maybe something like “mea culpa”? Or for the more hip crowd, “my bad”.
(it’s got more flavor to it than “EV2″)”
___________________________
Sorry can’t use that one! Since it’s taken directly from Latin to Spanish;
Enter a Spanish or English Word:
mea culpa
masculine noun
1. mea culpa
* entonó el mea culpa -> he acknowledged he had made a mistake
Copyright © 2006 Chambers Harrap Publishers Limited
Or in context as we often hear in Southern California – Mea culpa B###h, don’t sweat me or I’ll cut you!
May 5th, 2009 (12:03 pm)#77 carcust1
That is a translation Capt Jack can relate to. More beer. Right down his alley.
May 5th, 2009 (12:05 pm)#76 N Riley
Gm Europe includes Opel, Vauxhaul (England) and Spain as well as Russia and Poland.
I would think if Fiat bought Opel, there will not be an Opel Volt.
May 5th, 2009 (12:09 pm)GM has set November 2010 as the month for Volt production to start. Great, if it happens. If it does they will be able to deliver Volts to a dealership that is ready to start selling Volts. Both of these actions could happen during November 2010. But, and this is a big BUT, we don’t know the impact of the GSB on GM. We can only hope that they can keep working on the Volt development during the GSB. But, we don’t know. In my opinion, the schedule could slip by several months. I think it is very likely to slip. Makes no real difference to me if it does. I just want GM to get it right the first time. If they can do this and get it out on time or before the scheduled date, that is wonderful. Only time will tell. We just have to wait and see. Plenty of time for us to continue our little discussion group and sometimes get off target.
May 5th, 2009 (12:11 pm)@carcus1 77
Look, he’s “Polylingualistic” or whatever….
lol….
Serious theough, I want a BEV Volt. It’s 2009, where’s the big 2.2′s EV’s?
May 5th, 2009 (12:13 pm)#
N Riley #76
If the Opel Ampera is still on schedule, what does it mean to it if Fiat buys GM’s European division? Is Opel part of GM’s European division? I don’t know the answer to these questions. Maybe you do
___________________
I was wondering that too. Maybe GM wants to keep a stake in Opel, or even maintain control while Fiat only tries to inject cash. Any way a lot of wishful thinking is happening by auto execs trying to build empires with no cash into the deals. Time and, Government inclinations, will tell in the short term.
/just me speculating
May 5th, 2009 (12:13 pm)If they cancel the Volt and then bring it back, is it a Revolt?
May 5th, 2009 (12:14 pm)@ #67 CaptJackSparrow,
>> WTF?
Pwned!
@ #69 N Riley,
>>$5.00 per gallon could be here in a year or so.
>>Maybe more. We can hope, can’t we?
Hope for healthy Volt sales, yes. Hope for $5.00 (or +!) per gallon gas? So long as I’m still driving my GMC Sierra, ehhh, not so much.
May 5th, 2009 (12:15 pm)I don’t think GM will miss this target, since they would incur uber-wrath and embarrassment since they’ve talked about it so much.
PS. I am getting sick of one of my professors (a very important guy in the transportation analysis community) who seems to be on a personal crusade against plug-ins from an environmental utility standpoint and keeps using the crappiest possible performance numbers to back up his claims. For instance, he says the Volt’s battery will cost over $20,000. the battery is 16 kWh, which GM says will cost “well under $1000 per KWh”- this doesn’t work out to over 20k!!!! Worst of all, I think his thoughts are going to be part of a NY times article soon. Mostly he will be criticizing the Better Place Initiative (which I also think is quite unrealistic), but I’m sure he’ll take a shot at the plug-ins and especially the Volt. I’m writing my group term paper on plug-ins so hopefully we can convert him to at least PHEV agnosticism (although my group members are also somewhat skeptical of PHEVs). I think I’ll shoot him an email correcting him on the Volt battery cost claim. I hope he comes around!
May 5th, 2009 (12:16 pm)#80 Tex-Ari
Thanks. That is what I thought also. I suppose GM could continue development of the Ampera for Fiat and give it over to them at some point to complete. I am not real sure why GM is considering selling the European division, except money, of course. There might be some pressure being put on GM to sell off divisions in certain markets to reduce cost. This could be some undue pressure like what Chrysler has gone through. Not what I was hoping for when the government started to get involved with the auto companies. We all would be better off if GM and Chrysler had just gone through Chapter 11 this fall or early winter on their own. I know, some one will say that neither of them had the financial backing to make it through Chapter 11. Probably correct, but I still think we, as taxpayers, might just be better off.
May 5th, 2009 (12:19 pm)@carcus1
84
“If they cancel the Volt and then bring it back, is it a Revolt?”
No it’ll be “Recharged”
May 5th, 2009 (12:23 pm)#86 ccombs,
“I’m writing my group term paper on plug-ins so hopefully we can convert him . . . . ”
______________________________
I recall trying something like that once. Expect to do a lot of work, turn in something you’re really proud of . . . then get a C -.
but go ahead and do it. Maybe you can post it up here when your done.
May 5th, 2009 (12:24 pm)Jim Mbongo 44
I live in Waterloo, just a bit southwest of you, and I have family in Ottawa. I’m familiar with the phenomenon of stepping out the front door and not being able to breath for a second. That there’s some cold.
The point is that, as a global vehicle, the Volt will need ot compete in harsh climates, and it has been tested in both extreme cold and heat. That’s nothing to worry about.
However, since the biggest automotive market in the world is the USA, and the biggest US car market is California, even if it’s a total flop in the colder regions of the world I don’t expect that would have a great effect on it’s overall success. It needs to be a home run in Cali, then the other major US markets, then the world. The Great White North is (unfortunately) pretty small potatoes.
May 5th, 2009 (12:25 pm)#86 ccombs
It is a shame we sometimes have to put up with the nutty views of our professors. I had one in college that I put up with for as long as I could take it. One day I just unloaded on him and took him down one argument at a time. The rest of the class just sat there. No one tried to help me and I knew that was going to be the way it would happen. I figured I was toast in that class. Next time the class met, the professor apologized for his comments. I won’t say what the comments were. That was a long time ago and I want to move on. It was about national policy, nothing personal.
I don’t suggest you unload on your professor. They don’t seem like today’s versions would apologize. Just continue to beat you about the head with their views and make you suffer. A lot of people have strong opinions about environmental issues. I don’t know what type of subject you are taking with this professor, but maybe he is off subject when he does this. Your paper indicates he may not be. But, good luck with the paper. Be sure to be able to defend all the findings you present with authors, titles, etc.
May 5th, 2009 (12:27 pm)@N Riley 87
“I am not real sure why GM is considering selling the European division, except money, of course. There might be some pressure being put on GM to sell off divisions in certain markets to reduce cost. ”
The have to because our commander in chief the “Obamination” is going after US based companies abroad that manufacture and sell abroad to force them to pay US income taxes on the products they sold. At least that’s what I got out of his comments from the news.
May 5th, 2009 (12:29 pm)#86
ccombs “I don’t think GM will miss this target, since they would incur uber-wrath and embarrassment since they’ve talked about it so much.
PS. I am getting sick of one of my professors (a very important guy in the transportation analysis community) who seems to be on a personal crusade against plug-ins
_______________________________
Show your professor this and remind him that Fred Smith’s college paper on starting a Fed Ex like service received a terrible grade!
( http://www.environmentalleader.com/2009/02/26/fedex-ceo-ending-oil-dependency-will-save-money-fight-terrorism/ )
Unfortunately the professor has valid arguments until the Volt wheels are on the ground, w/o well to wheel analysis that is.
May 5th, 2009 (12:31 pm)#76 N Riley says:
#62 Statik
If the Opel Ampera is still on schedule, what does it mean to it if Fiat buys GM’s European division? Is Opel part of GM’s European division? I don’t know the answer to these questions. Maybe you do.
================
Yeah Fiat is trying to get all of GM’s EU assets, which include Opel. (also Saab, Vauxhell and some other stuff not worth mentioning).
If…(big if) somehow Fiat got its hands on Opel (and Europeon assets), I would assume the Ampera would be moved along as scheduled. It would work like fictional ‘HUMMER’ and Saturn deal we keep hearing about (that only existed in their minds).
That is that, GM contractually builds the products not built domestically in the new ‘Fiat-GM Euro zone’…Opel (nee Fiat) buys and resells that product from GM to keep the product line seamless.
As for Fiat getting the Europeon assets, specifically Opel, I don’t know if you have been following it at all…but, even the overatures went really (really) badly. German officals hate it, and Klaus Franz (Opel’s works council lead) has even more distain…and that is before getting to all the bitching about what the trade-off is for anyone taking Saab’s dead body off GM’s hands (Vauxhell is still a pretty good asset).
If anyone where to take over Opel, or lead a group to take over Opel and/or a share for itself, it would be Magna. Magna is a Canadian parts maker with a lot of Austrian in its blood, so they would have the easiest time of it…and they are ridiculously integrated into just about everything GM does now…they would have a lot of leverage.
There is some kind of weird Russian and Middle East company rumors floating around…but how many times have we heard that one? I’ll believe it when I see it.
Fiat has now (or is now) trying to hook up with Magna to try and do it, but I have feeling that Fiat is trying the ‘too big to fail’ trick now and Magna doesn’t want to get pulled into that situation….or maybe Fiat have just gone insane.
“Alright guys, we are a lousy car company what shall we do?
“Merge with Chrysler?”
“Cool…and what else?”
“Umm, really, you want to do something else? Ah, how about taking over Euro GM?”
“Nice…lets do it!”
“How do we buy them, we haven’t got any money to do that?”
“Hrm…promises, lots of promises?
“Like what?”
“Just tell them everyone will keeps there jobs in the US and Europe, oh, oh…and give out all kinds of fantastic press releases about our future success”
“Nice”
“Sergio Marchionne you a big tall glass of awesome”
/meeting over…high 5s al around
May 5th, 2009 (12:40 pm)GM is going to build my car ……………….YES
Cadillac Converj Hybrid gets green light
Volt spinoff to be built in 2011
By Staff, Canadian Auto PressApril 16, 2009
The Link
http://www.vancouversun.com/Cars/Cadillac+Converj+Hybrid+gets+green+light/1499460/story.html
May 5th, 2009 (12:44 pm)@Keith 95
The Converj is a nice car. It will have a premium BUT, if it can not rip off the line any faster than the production Volt 1.0 or 2.0 then IMHO, it’s not worth it.
However, If (BIG IF) GM sold it as a 20AER and rips the hell out of Volt 1.0 or 2.0, then yes, it’s worth it. Othr than that, appearnce is nothing without gutts.
May 5th, 2009 (12:45 pm)Time for a new topic. The cash for clunkers program details are now out. What the government will consider as “fuel efficient” for new vehicles purchased is 18 mpg for trucks, 22 mpg for cars, way, way, way worse than the 26 year old cafe standards.
Some new vehicles that qualify as “fuel efficient” are listed below. You can tell by the types and names (yes, that’s sarcasm – sorry but I’m deeply dissapointed in the automakers and Congress on this one).
full size SUVs:
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Dodge Nitro (the explosive compound)
GMC Acadia
full size pickup trucks:
GMC Canyon 4WD Crew Cab
Chevy Colorado 4WD Crew Cab
family sedans:
Dodge Avenger
Chrysler Sebring (the race circuit)
Pontiac G6
The above are supposedly “fuel efficient” vehicles.
The program is a joke. I call shenanigans and weak sauce. This is a thin attempt to offload oversupplied new gas hogs rotting at the dealers. If automakers and Congress aren’t careful they’re going to make taxpayers mad. I completely reject having my money wasted on such garbage (ok, the Canyon and Colorad aren’t garbage, but they’re full on heavy duty work trucks, not very fuel efficient relative to light personal pickup trucks), when there are alternatives that function just as well and get much, much better mileage, such as a Prius for family sedan, Ford Escape Hybrid for SUV and Ford Ranger for a pickup (top mileage vehicles in each of those classes).
At a minimum the minimum fuel efficiency to qualify as new vehicle eligible for a gas hog (oops, I mean clunker) voucher should be not less than the 26 year old cafe standard for each class. Rep. Dingleberry at work here, methinks.
May 5th, 2009 (12:47 pm)Capt Jack #74:
And One in Latin is quod unus
And FYI, I really hated Latin in high school……………
May 5th, 2009 (12:52 pm)#40 Brian
“Does this timetable include the shutdown of most of GM for the next 3 months and a major bankruptcy soon? ”
I’d like to know this too. I’m not sure you you stay on a timetable that was set before they decided to send everyone home for the summer at most of the plants. That has to delay the launch date significantly. My guess is they are sticking with the date now for PR purposes, but know full well internally that it won’t happen.
May 5th, 2009 (1:04 pm)@Electric Vehicle Owner 97
Do you have a link to that? Not that I don’t trust you but I want to see if I can go buy Julio’s old bucket down the street and use it for the clunker trade in.
May 5th, 2009 (1:04 pm)#99
Mark M
#40 Brian
“Does this timetable include the shutdown of most of GM for the next 3 months and a major bankruptcy soon? ”
I’d like to know this too. I’m not sure you you stay on a timetable that was set before they decided to send everyone home for the summer at most of the plants. That has to delay the launch date significantly. My guess is they are sticking with the date now for PR purposes, but know full well internally that it won’t happen.
_________________
There is no Volt Plant to send workers home from, there is no unsold Volt inventory piling up in storage that requires stopping one or more lines. There is no scheduled model year changeover that will need Last years Volts to stop production to tool up for the new models.Right?
May 5th, 2009 (1:05 pm)#94 Statik
Have I got a word for you today!!! G r e a t !!!! That was a really great response to my comment. I think you almost came across as a regular person with some knowledge on the subject. Now, whether that changes how others view you or not, I can’t (or won’t) say. But, good response. I liked it. It was along the lines I was thinking. Great minds think alike, they say. (I don’t know who “they” are, but could “they” be wrong sometimes?) I am not seeing Fiat being able to pull this one off, either. Maybe they are hoping for some of our taxpayer money to help the process along. All they have to do is talk to the right person on the auto task force. Or maybe they have an inside track at the White House. I expect neither, but I suspect both.
May 5th, 2009 (1:06 pm)@Jim I 98
“And One in Latin is quod unus”
Hey thanks bro!
OK, I don’t like it. It sounds like “4 anus’s”
May 5th, 2009 (1:11 pm)CaptJackSparrow # 101
Don’t even think about it. I have a signed intent to purchase that bucket from him, and one from his brother Chewy too. I was anticipating the bills ratification!
May 5th, 2009 (1:16 pm)@jeffhre 105
AHAHAHAH!!!!
dude you crack me up!!!
May 5th, 2009 (1:18 pm)#104 CaptJack,
“Hey thanks bro!
OK, I don’t like it. It sounds like “4 anus’s””
_________________
Ha. Too late anyway. Somebody’s already selling surf gear with it.
http://www.fourholes.com/main.php
May 5th, 2009 (1:25 pm)Some have ,at times, left posts that worry about the dealers having people capable of working on the Volt.
GM operates what are known as “GM Training Center” scattered all over the U.S. There is one in Dallas.
The dealers send their hotshot mechanics to be trained as a part of the introduction of new vehicle systems.
Opel as well as Vauxhall are important to GM. I cannot comprehend that they would leave the Volt engineering with Fiat.
The Opel Volt is engineered from the Volt in the U.S.
May 5th, 2009 (1:32 pm)Fiat apparantly has made quite the turnaround w/their new Prez. And they sold almost as many cars as GM Europe did.
Personally i dont ever see myself buying a Chrysler/Fiat, but never say never.
May 5th, 2009 (1:35 pm)Well, they’ve said November all along. I’m not sure if I believe them, but I’d rather they take a few extra months than put it out before it’s ready.
However, I doubt the financial situation is making a difference at this point. I can absolutely see GM going to the government for Volt development money. And, if they did, I’m pretty sure they’d get it. Obama wants American made electric cars. And so does congress. And the Volt is his best chance of getting them before 2012.
This is not meant as a criticism, by the way. If I were in charge, I would give GM whatever funds they needed to keep the Volt on schedule. As long as I was sure it was for the Volt.
May 5th, 2009 (1:35 pm)Here is my email in case anyone is interested:
Hi, I was just reading your comments on
http://newmobilityagenda.blogspot.com/2009/05/honk-brains-not-included.html
wondering where you were getting your numbers for the Chevy Volt battery costing $20,000.
Based on:
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=2&docid=48589
the Volt’s battery capacity is 16kWhr.
and based on:
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2009/03/our_real-world_learnings_differ_from_cmu_study.html
the cost is well under $1000/kWhr.
At least from what I’ve been hearing for a while, the Volt battery is supposed to cost closer to $10,000, although this may be a bit rosy estimating on the side of GM. Then again, they’re the ones paying LG for the battery cells. As well, with high volume and the development of economies of scale, it is reasonable to assume the battery cost will drop significantly in the future. This might mean that PHEVs will start to move closer to the cost premium of “clean” diesel, while offering higher mpg and less PM 2.5 emitted in areas with high concentrations of people. Actual GHG emissions savings are no doubt endlessly debatable, but vehicles running on battery power when around masses of people will certainly cause fewer direct health effects. As well, if fuel prices go up again the operating cost savings of PHEVs could be substantial.
I know you are not necessarily the biggest fan of PHEVs. Until recently, I had also been very skeptical of the actual benefits of hybrids and PHEVs, apart from greenwashing. However, advances in Li-Ion technology and falling cost has converted me to a proponent, especially of series PHEVs. Many of the problems with after-market jerry-rigged PHEVs like the plug-in Priuses in the NPR article you gave us (such as having to drive at very low speeds to realize their “100+ mpg” benefits) will not be a problem in series hybrids like the Volt. The Volt is electrically driven at all speeds (even highway speeds). Thus it will realize its benefits not just in slow city driving, but in highway driving as well. The Volt’s battery-powered range is stated to be 40 miles city on the new, accurate EPA cycle, but recent mule testing by GM has shown that highway cycle electric range is less than 1 mile lower than city range. The Volt doesn’t have to be driven by “hypermilers” to be effective. With 75% or so of Americans driving less than 40 miles per day, the Volt could be running off battery power the vast majority of the time. Even with our current power generation mix, this will result in substantial energy and emissions savings. While the battery does add a hefty price premium to the Volt, there are also cost savings over conventional cars, such as the fact that the Volt only needs a 1-speed transmission. You’ll also save quite a bit on maintenance costs since it is electrically-driven at all times. In sum, while GM has done just about everything wrong they possibly could in the past two decades, with the Volt they’re finally doing something stunningly right.
Imagine if the car mass and size reductions you have proposed occur in concert with implementing PHEV technology. This would mean even smaller batteries, greater cost savings, and greater efficiency. While I understand your opposition to people who think technological advances alone will solve our energy problems, I don’t think talking down PHEVs is necessary is order to emphasize the importance of other strategies. Both weight reductions and PHEVs can work symbiotically and be more effective than either strategy in isolation. It will be difficult to implement either strategy. People might fight tooth-and-nail to keep their high-performance heavyweight cars, just as they might balk at paying extra for a battery. Nonetheless, something has to change. I’m a mechanical engineer and definitely a transportation policy novice, so perhaps I am just getting unduly excited about innovative technology. However, I hope you’ll consider the possibility that PHEVs could play a major role in decreasing transportation energy usage.
May 5th, 2009 (1:36 pm)Noel Park @54 :
Maybe GM will time the Volt release perfectly to coincide with the next gas spike, LOL.
—————————————————————————————————————————
Or maybe oil taxes will be raised to coincide perfectly with the Volt release. This would actually be a very simple thing to do.
May 5th, 2009 (1:37 pm)@100 CaptJackSparrow,
>> this will be a “Global” change to your PC.
Not only that, but you will be hosing Lyle out of ad revenue. Are you going to mail him a check to cover his website expenses?
May 5th, 2009 (1:43 pm)@Mike-o-Matic 113
“Not only that, but you will be hosing Lyle out of ad revenue. Are you going to mail him a check to cover his website expenses?”
No, but is he sending me a check for my bandwidth?
May 5th, 2009 (1:45 pm)ccombs # 111 …However, I hope you’ll consider the possibility that PHEVs could play a major role in decreasing transportation energy usage.
___________________
Great post! If you haven’t sent the email yet, maybe you could phrase that last line as, “However, I hope you’ll consider the possibility that PHEVs could play a practical role in decreasing transportation energy usage.” so you don’t have to struggle to throw your professors entire obstructionist load of baggage over the fence all at one time.
May 5th, 2009 (1:58 pm)@ #114 CaptJackSparrow,
>> No, but is he sending me a check for my bandwidth?
Owww!! Stop it. That made me roll my eyes so hard, I pulled a couple of ocular muscles.
Geez, something’s gotta pay the bills — it’s not enough that Lyle built the place and volunteers (considerable!) time to this effort?
May 5th, 2009 (2:05 pm)#87 N Riley
GM is selling Opel because Opel needs cash to get through the economic downturn, and GM doesn’t have it.
May 5th, 2009 (2:09 pm)LauraM #117
GM is selling Opel because Opel needs cash to get through the economic downturn, and GM doesn’t have it
_______________
They’ve also been lobbying the German Govt. for help and I’m sure if Fiats proposals are rejected all around for lack of feasibility GM would feel that bolsters their case.
May 5th, 2009 (2:14 pm)statik Says:
May 5th, 2009 at 11:15 am
#46 Guido says:
(in response to Statik)
LOL – OK, Mister “glass is half empty ” ! Let’s see you put your money where your mouth is.
If GM begins producing saleable Volts by Novemeber 30, 2009, will you post a public apology to GM and Bob Lutz for your endless whining and poor-mouthing of GM over the last 18 months ?
On the other hand, if GM fails to do so, I will agree to post a sincere retraction of any doubts I ever had of your immense wisdom and foresight. I will also cede to you the title of Galactic Overlord, and heir to the throne of the Universal Overseer.
Do we have a deal ? I do believe you to be a gentleman, and a man of your word.
======================
If GM delivers even 1 Volt off the production assembly line at anytime in 2010. ie) VIN #0001 going to any customer I will offer my sincere apology for my, ‘endless whining and poor-mouthing’ without hesitation. Heck I want to buy it, so it is a apology with a great perk for me…although I don’t have a million-odd dollars lying around to bid on it at Barrett-Jackson (ala the $385K paid for the Camaro)
However, your apology is not needed if they don’t hit it.
————
Done ! You will have my apology as stated if they don’t make November 30th, regardless. I appreciate your tone and good humor. I also think you are going to be very pleasantly surprised at their response to this challenge. I also think that David Letterman will be eating his words ( which isn’t too difficult, given the enormous size of that melon on his shoulders), and I expect Maximum Bob to gracefully feed them to him! GO GM ! GO VOLT !
May 5th, 2009 (2:20 pm)“Obama wants American made electric cars. And so does congress. And the Volt is his best chance of getting them before 2012. ”
We already have American made electric cars.
http://www.teslamotors.com
May 5th, 2009 (2:31 pm)Mark M @ 120 :
“Obama wants American made electric cars. And so does congress. And the Volt is his best chance of getting them before 2012. ”
———————————————————————————————————————————–
I guess they meant “Obama wants affordable American made electric cars. And so does congress…”
Althought expensive, the Volt is still projected to be the most affordable in its class.
May 5th, 2009 (2:38 pm)#108
In my comment, I stated there was a GM Technical Training Center in Dallas. It is actually in Garland, Tx a suburb of Dallas.
May 5th, 2009 (2:38 pm)April 26th is the day of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant accident, the worst technogenic disaster in the history of humanity. Perfect day for the launch of a revolutionary electric vehicle, ha ha ha!
May 5th, 2009 (2:41 pm)Still waiting for Camaro SS models to roll in to Southern California.
I wouldn’t take that bet on November of 2010 for VOLT.
They’re always late to the party.
May 5th, 2009 (2:50 pm)#20 Mark M
You’re right. Let me rephrase that. The Volt is his best chance of getting more than a token amount of American Made electric cars on the road before 2015.
I’m not criticizing Tesla. But realistically, GM can mass produce a lot faster than Tesla. And the Volt is a lot more affordable than the roadster.
May 5th, 2009 (2:55 pm)@Mike-o-Matic 116
“Owww!! Stop it. That made me roll my eyes so hard, I pulled a couple of ocular muscles.
Geez, something’s gotta pay the bills — it’s not enough that Lyle built the place and volunteers (considerable!) time to this effort?”
I’ll tell you what though. If he decides to go test drive a BYD, I’ll donate some funds for the “Throw Lyle on the plane” tour.
May 5th, 2009 (2:58 pm)elecric vehicle owner @97 mentions the following:
full size pickup trucks:
GMC Canyon 4WD Crew Cab
Chevy Colorado 4WD Crew Cab
————————————————-
These are GM’s SMALL pickups. They are not full size pickups.
Check the size on the “Full size SUVs” you mention too. The Dodge Nitro, for example, is a small SUV, derived from the Jeep Liberty.
May 5th, 2009 (2:59 pm)#62 statik:
Fiat may have something to say about that. How do you think GM would cooperate with Fiat/Opel on the Ampera? Not to sound pessimistic or anything, LOL.
#69 & #71 N Riley:
Thank you for your statesmanlike comments. After I thought about, I said to myself “Oh, oh, he could probably go back to my # 52 and justifiably tell me to practice what I preach.” I guess it does depend on whose bull is being gored. Nice choice of words, BTW.
May 5th, 2009 (3:00 pm)#103 N Riley said:
“#94 Statik, Have I got a word for you today!!! G r e a t !!!! That was a really great response to my comment. I think you almost came across as a regular person with some knowledge on the subject. Now, whether that changes how others view you or not, I can’t (or won’t) say. But, good response. I liked it. It was along the lines I was thinking. Great minds think alike, they say. (I don’t know who “they” are, but could “they” be wrong sometimes?) I am not seeing Fiat being able to pull this one off, either.
—————-
Thanks….I think, hehe.
======================
======================
#119 Guido said:
Done ! You will have my apology as stated if they don’t make November 30th, regardless. I appreciate your tone and good humor. I also think you are going to be very pleasantly surprised at their response to this challenge….
—————–
I am happy to be wrong in the end…and for us to be cool, have a good one. (=
May 5th, 2009 (3:05 pm)@126 CaptJackSparrow,
>> I’ll tell you what though. If he decides to go test drive a BYD,
>> I’ll donate some funds for the “Throw Lyle on the plane” tour.
Now that, we can agree upon.
May 5th, 2009 (3:14 pm)CNN Video interview of BYD founder with test drive of F3DM
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/04/20/byd.wangchuanfu/index.html
(3 parts)
/don’t get too excited. They don’t talk much about specs. // Put me down for a fiver on Lyle’s extended test drive in China./// As long as I’m throwing big cash around, I’ll put a C-note on Statik’s side of the bet @ 60.
May 5th, 2009 (3:19 pm)@ CaptJack and Jeffhre
Here’s the local rag crowing at how watered down the cash for clunkers bill agreement is:
http://www.freep.com/article/20090505/BUSINESS01/90505060/1002/BUSINESS/U.S.+House+members+reach+compromise+on+cash+for+clunkers
It’s just the House/Admin version so far, but after the EPA corn ethanol scam debacle today, it seems that the upper midwest is getting everything they want from the admin. at the expense of taxpayers and consumers. So what do we get in return?
Hurry up with the Volt, GM!!!! While you’re at it, make every single vehicle you build contain an electric drive motor (no, the starter electric motor doesn’t count, nor the power window motors, etc., etc.) hooked up through whatever drivetrain you want to help the vehicle move and make ‘em plug ins. Then you’ll start to get a little street cred. After all, you are General Motors, not General Internal Combustion Engines. Please start living up to your name.
May 5th, 2009 (3:23 pm)#128 Noel Park
I knew all along there were many reasons why I like your comments on this site. I don’t always agree with you (as you have said about me), but I do respect your comments. Thanks for the “come back”. And I did not see anything to worry about in your other comment. Hey, I am guilty of saying a lot worse. Sometimes I have to slap myself after posting a comment. I have a great desire to edit the comment and replace everything with blanks. But, I do have a thing about saying what I think and throwing it against the wall to see what sticks.
May 5th, 2009 (3:29 pm)#131 carcus1
As long as I’m throwing big cash around, I’ll put a C-note on Statik’s side of the bet @ 60.
————————–
I sure would not want to bet against Statik being wrong at this juncture. The way things are going with GM and the government.
May 5th, 2009 (3:36 pm)Re: Fiat and Opel/Vaux/Saab
News out today on the subject…after Fiat talked to the German gov’t about backing their play to take over Opel, the gov’t came down with a list of conditions to win approval (which are hella-tough)
Some of the highlights:
–The company HQ would be in Germany, and thats where they pay taxes
–All the German plants remain open
–All future products stay online
–Acceptance of the majority of Opel workers
–A good business plan
(can’t link to the article of the financial times because it flags as spam)
…so basically Fiat has to put a man on the moon, then plant a flag there bestowing the virtues of David Hasselhoff, (probably with unusually long compound words), that loosely translate to something about ‘Hooked on a Feeling’ being the best song/video of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJQVlVHsFF8
while before they will get any Euros from the German gov’t
(and yes, I did all that just for a excuse to link to that video…who wouldn’t though?)
May 5th, 2009 (3:37 pm)@EVOwner 132
From link…
“The old passenger cars and trucks being traded in under the plan would have to get less than 18 miles per gallon in combined driving.”
And so are they going to put the clunkers on a treadmill to measure?
Just curious. Obviously it’s not completely ironed out. I wonder if you have to prove length of ownership? Hope not…..lol…..=oD
May 5th, 2009 (3:41 pm)#128 noel park said:
“#62 statik, Fiat may have something to say about that. How do you think GM would cooperate with Fiat/Opel on the Ampera? Not to sound pessimistic or anything, LOL.”
—————-
I mentioned how I figured it would shake out if lightning hit the building and Fiat got control of Opel in #94…but it might have got lost in the ramblings today (I’ll C&P it)
“If…(big if) somehow Fiat got its hands on Opel (and Europeon assets), I would assume the Ampera would be moved along as scheduled. It would work like fictional ‘HUMMER’ and Saturn deal we keep hearing about (that only existed in their minds).
That is that, GM contractually builds the products not built domestically in the new ‘Fiat-GM Euro zone’…Opel (nee Fiat) buys and resells that product from GM to keep the product line seamless.”
May 5th, 2009 (3:43 pm)#132
Electric Vehicle Owner – Thanks for the link!
#134
N Riley – There’s a big risk in siding w/ Statik. He was a gentleman and set the bar very low. Only one car delivered to a customer. Tesla was able to do this almost six months before they got their second car out. It was even difficult for the most rabid fans to say, so what if the first customer was Tesla CEO Elon Musk.
If someone with authority at GM wants to get just one car to a customer in 11/2010 it will happen. If there is a problem on the critical path that holds up the additional planned 9,999 you’d still lose that bet.
May 5th, 2009 (3:56 pm)#138 jeffhre
You may just have me on that one. You pointed out very correctly the odds against Statik being correct. I was not siding with Statik. I just said I would not like to bet against Statik. In my own view, stated previously on this posting, I am of the opinion that the schedule will slip by three to five months due to the difficulties encountered before, during and after the GSB. Any time a company gets rolled the way GM is going to get rolled by the government and the UAW, problems will arise. The “new GM” that arises from the dregs of the “old GM” may not function like anything we have ever seen before. We just don’t know, yet. We haven’t “gone there” before. This is new, uncharted territory for American capitalism. Some are hoping it will be the beginning of the end of American capitalism. And they may very well be correct. We just don’t know yet. We will know much more by November 2010.
May 5th, 2009 (4:02 pm)@CJS 136
No need for a treadmill. The information is already public, for those who bother to look it up. Some government entity does a huge amount of work compiling that information. Perhaps the government will use its own work.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
I’m glad it’s not purely age based, as I was imagining someone trading in a decrepid old last century Prius (41 mpg combined using the new hybrid dissing EPA method) for a brand new Chevy Trailblazer AWD (13 mpg combined).
May 5th, 2009 (4:06 pm)There’s also a significant chance GM won’t be around in 2010 to produce the Volt. I’d say at least a 30% chance. A good portion of Ch 11s fall into Ch 7s within a year or two… The odds of Nov 2010 are definitely stacked against the Volt. We shall see.
May 5th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Chapter filings don’t typically have the full faith and funding of the US Govt behind them.
May 5th, 2009 (4:12 pm)@Electric Vehicle Owner 132
From the link…
“The vouchers would apply to passenger cars, trucks and work vehicles. The old passenger cars and trucks being traded in under the plan would have to get less than 18 miles per gallon in combined driving. ”
Now how many passenger cars do you know that got equal to or below 18MPG? Hot Rods maybe but cmmon!!
May 5th, 2009 (4:13 pm)#119 Guido says “You will have my apology as stated if they don’t make November 30th, regardless”
That’s a terrible bet. Not because GM is behind schedule — I don’t think it is — but because we are way too far out from the release date. I’ve said this earlier in this thread: You have time, features, and quality and you get to pick any two of the three. It would not be a surprise if GM was forced at some point to opt for the latter two. Hopefully not but certainly no shame.
Note that money is absent from the critical elements. In new product development more money frequently doesn’t help. People who don’t know what they’re talking about invariably suggest that projects behind schedule will be helped along by adding people. This is almost always dead wrong. Adding people once a project is underway simply slows things down, sometimes way down, as new people have to be integrated into the team. Plus there is all this additional overhead as all the additional people have to co-ordinate their activities. (Years ago I violated my own rule against investing in single companies — and going short — when Al Dunlop announced on CNBC that while the company was in trouble because its new billing system was behind this would all be fixed because he had ordered more people be hired for the project. I immediately went short because I knew Dunlop was either a fool or a liar or both).
Counter intuitive though it may be, quadrupling the Volt’s development budget would be far more likely to delay production by six months than advance it. Projects have natural team sizes and natural time frames. Once the development team is right sized, throwing more money and more bodies into a project rarely helps. GM could spend a lot of money having the production facilities ready today, but that would simply be a waste because the car itself will not be ready to go until the fall of 2010. In this regard, as but one example, how would you accelerate battery testing given that the battery is already being tested 24/7? We live in a time space continuum, and there are only 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year. All the money in the world doesn’t change that.
May 5th, 2009 (4:28 pm)Sidenote to anyone actually still ‘holding’ onto their GM stock, hoping it comes around…. this has to be comforting:
—-
GM may seek 1-for-100 reverse stock split
DETROIT (AP) — General Motors Corp. says it may offer current shareholders a reverse stock split that would give them one share of new stock for every 100 shares they currently own.
The automaker says in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission that the deal would be part of an agreement with the Treasury Department to swap at least half of GM’s debt to the government for company shares. The filing says both sides are still negotiating the terms of the debt swap, but the government would own at least 50 percent of the company.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-may-seek-1for100-reverse-apf-15141645.html?.v=5
May 5th, 2009 (4:38 pm)Sorry, all, but I’m tired of holding back punches today.
@ factcheckguy 127
You said:
“These are GM’s SMALL pickups. They are not full size pickups.
Check the size on the “Full size SUVs” you mention too. The Dodge Nitro, for example, is a small SUV, derived from the Jeep Liberty.”
Right, the word Nitro (18 mpg) as do the other SUVs listed (18 mpg) really make me think of fuel efficiency. Not. A truck with a crew cab (it’s a sedan, no it’s a truck, aw, h@ck, we’ll just build both together) and 4WD and gasoline engine that gets 18 mpg is not going to be fuel efficient compared to a 2WD truck without a crew cab (especially with a small diesel) that’ll easily handle real hobby farm/ranch and household tasks, like a dump run once a month. Come to think of it, an efficient station wagon, like the Jetta Sportwagen TDI (34 mpg), could also do that work just fine, and has much better handling and is more fun to drive (diesel torque for low end oomph, turbo for high end punch and LeMans racing developed dual clutch (DSG)).
That I consider what I listed to be full size, which they are relative to what else is available in the same class, tells what obese, obscene, wallowing, 1940′s technology, unable to stay between the lines handling monstrosities I consider anything bigger in each class. With properly crowned roads in new developments and downsloped house siting, the largest SUVs now look much larger than the new houses that they sit in front of while blocking the street (they can’t fit in the driveways or garages and can’t negotiate the corner to get at either, anyway).
The ones I listed are in fact larger and get much worse gas mileage than many other models on the market. Fact. I mentioned the best fuel economy models in each class (Ford Escape hybrid (32 mpg) for SUV, Ford Ranger (23 mpg) for pickup truck, and Prius (46 mpg) for family sedan) as well, for comparison.
Sorry for the slapback, but in case you couldn’t figure it out, the domestic automakers decades long footdragging on vehicle efficiency is starting to get under my skin. Notice a correlation between model vehicle efficiency and how well each of the big three domestic automaker’s financial picture is? How many decades does it take to figure it out the obvious? Build more efficient vehicles for financial success (see Fiat).
Note that efficient, relative to its class, doesn’t have to be small. It maybe used to be that small, inexpensive and fuel efficient were pretty equivalent. Not any longer. There are three classes of cars smaller than the current leader in fuel efficiency, which is a midsize family four door sedan with lots of room and fold down flat rear seats (a bale of hay fits), and it’s neither the cheapest nor most expensive thing out there. Fact.
May 5th, 2009 (4:40 pm)GM better hurry up. Another electric car will be selling next year in California.
Miles Electric readies all-electric family sedan:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10233481-54.html
Relax everyone, it only goes 80 mph with a 100 mile range.
May 5th, 2009 (4:45 pm)#144 DonC
I agree. I have managed quite a few software projects. The best ones are the ones where there are fewer people working on the project. Money is great, but people causes problems. That is a big problem as companies or government grows. Too many people eventually will sink the project or business. The government is the only entity that I know that can just add people and not worry about that “sinking feeling” because they don’t operate under any know business rules. I am not sure there are any rules except spend all you allocated budget this year and ask for as much increase in the budget next year as you think you can get away with.
GM is smart to keep the project going along like they have been doing. If they are able to keep it going at all. We can only hope there.
May 5th, 2009 (4:46 pm)#144 DonC
I confess to having read your post a couple times, and each time have no idea where you were headed…hehe.
/it was a wicked good read though
At the end of the day he asked for the bet, and being a man who likes to gamble for amusement from time to time, I figured…why not? And who doesn’t want to be the ‘Universal Overseer’ if given the opportunity?
May 5th, 2009 (4:47 pm)#147 Mark Z
I could live with the 80 mph and 100 mile range, but at $45,000? No, that is just too much for what you are getting.
May 5th, 2009 (4:53 pm)@N Riley 150
#147 Mark Z
I could live with the 80 mph and 100 mile range, but at $45,000? No, that is just too much for what you are getting.
I agree.
Doesn’t it look like a more colorful BYD F3DM?
The specs I can deal with, as long as acceleration is good. The price however, that’s the deal killer.
May 5th, 2009 (4:59 pm)N. Riley #148 – It’s not that Govt doesn’t follow business rules, it’s that Govt isn’t a business. If your business was perceived as inept/corrupt and your products rejected in the marketplace you would clearly have to change, fast, or find some other work.
When Govt is operating at their lowest historical ratings, instead of folding under the weight of their mistakes with a chapter 7, they just come back again every July (after sticking it to us April 15th) and allocate their new revenues. Voting rearranges some of the faces, but the entity remains intact.
May 5th, 2009 (5:04 pm)Not having read the link, where does the $7500 credit factor in with Miles E?
/OK I guess I can actually read the link, er sumpin’
May 5th, 2009 (5:05 pm)CJS 143
There are a whole bunch. Here’s one, a GM product, no less. I’ll leave it to you to do the rest of the work to answer your own question, lazybones.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=541
What I care about is which new vehicles are available for a clunker voucher (almost all of them), regardless of the clunker, which pretty completely dilutes the incentive towards increased efficiency for automakers. It’s about moving (early) last century’s technology, inefficient heavy steel through failing dealers, not about high quality making and marketing of efficient products that consumers demand. The current mismatch between supply and demand is about 80%, according to independent reports.
May 5th, 2009 (5:07 pm)Why do these cars all look like 90′s Nissan Altimas with bad grilles?
May 5th, 2009 (5:12 pm)#86
Professor who apparently opposes plug-ins.
Here are some perspectives that might help.
1. Sometimes, professors take the antithesis of an increasingly held viewpoint (plug-ins) so that students are forced to think harder and harder. This is to convince them that students are “doing their own work”, and not just parroting others.
2. While this can easily “get to you”, the thing to remember that the objective is for you to do your own research. Research includes reading about the various practicalities of the subject matter that you have been assigned or that you pick for yourself, and then, coming to your own unique conclusions (as possibilities).
I am not sure if the internet works this way, but, the things that I happen to post (exclusively here) regarding plug-ins (so that hopefully researchers can locate them easier), and, especially E-REV technologies, I have designed from the beginning, as a compilation of perspectives from the independent automotive servicing field. This site has been kind enough to place my posts (sometimes off topic), regarding the critical importance to the environment and all our futures, of Voltec technologies, which I conclude are far superior to anything else out there, based on my 38 years of experience with all applied technical design strategies.
I can analyze any technology which comes out with the Genisys scan system in the most thorough manner. When I advise readers here that the Voltec technologies will make the biggest difference to the prevention of our planet from becoming a “toaster”, this representation is backed by my 38 years as an analyzing technician.
No other site can give you all the various perspectives that relate here.
You have investors whom think in terms of what *they* may gain or lose, (or have already lost), and that is all. You have readers who are just curious who want only to determine if Voltec technologies will be the wave of the future (I say, absolutely). And, there is the eclectic mix of everything else that is also really interesting to read.
If you only could know the serious financial repair difficulties of vehicle owners of extremely-processor-complex ICE vehicles face every day (as I teach shop techs by revealing these extreme costs for very stupid mistakes such as grease between battery posts and clamps), you would be astonished to learn how much of all these financially-dangerous situations are possibly going to go away with the rigorous testing GM is performing for Voltec vehicles.
So, your professor is likely just stating a (silly) antithesis (which he likely knows is false (but don’t say so)), in order to make you do your own research.
Just smile and research everything I’ve posted here, and, you might find that your command of the technical aspects of Voltec are likely to get you an A plus. If your professor really has some other underlying interest (such as being heavily invested in fossil fuels), then, still, do your work and publish a concise abstract right here.
That way, I will give you a grade on your abstract (about 7 paragraphs of overview) as an ASE L-1 Examined Educator, and, all other readers and posters here will have the opportunity also enjoy your scholarship.
Dan Petit Austin TX,
May 5th, 2009 (5:19 pm)@jeffhre 153
“Not having read the link, where does the $7500 credit factor in with Miles E?”
I think it’s the battery pack.
“Why do these cars all look like 90’s Nissan Altimas with bad grilles?”
AHAHAHA!!!!
I was just thinking the same thing.
May 5th, 2009 (5:20 pm)Mark Z 147
“$45,000? No, that is just too much ”
Right. ’cause paying $65,000 for a poor handling, top heavy truck frame vehicle with 1940′s (or older) technology is such a better deal.
grrr.
Not to worry – the only news is that they delayed their killer app for yet another year (it was supposed to be out in 2007, er 2008, wait, wait, in 2009, now 2010, …). No one wants to be first, everyone wants to get the pie. Anyone study game theory? It’s a first mover problem. There are solutions that result in actual new and improved products, if you’re fast and bright.
Be fast and bright, GM!
May 5th, 2009 (5:34 pm)@Electric Vehicle Owner 154
“There are a whole bunch. Here’s one, a GM product, no less. I’ll leave it to you to do the rest of the work to answer your own question, lazybones.”
Aw that’s BU||Sh|t!!!
My 97 Saturn won’t qualify!
“have to get less than 18 miles per gallon in combined driving. ”
Well, in that case most New off the line Trucks and SUV’s qualify!
I’m guessing the 8 year old stipluation was sh|t canned.
May 5th, 2009 (5:40 pm)Off topic…
Tata receives 203,000 bookings for Nano, twice what they can initially fulfill
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/05/tata-receives-203-000-bookings-for-nano-twice-what-they-can-ini/
“203,000 fully paid bookings”
OK if this car met NA standards, it would be worth buying then ripping out the gutts and slap in electric drive!!!!
May 5th, 2009 (6:08 pm)At what point will we see the real price? I seem to recall from an earlier discussion that other factors would bring the price down?
May 5th, 2009 (6:10 pm)#156 Dan Petit
Just to clarify, my professor definitely doesn’t like fossil fuels at all- he just thinks we are spending way too much time and money on advanced technology-based solutions to curb energy use. He would rather us transition to smaller, lighter, less powerful vehicles to save energy. He often says (and is correct) that more efficient technologies are often put to use in making vehicles have higher performance, rather than saving energy. He is of course right about all this, but I think there a huge cultural barriers toward such change. I think PHEVs are also critical to reducing energy use, since they will help even if people refuse to downsize their cars. He is certainly a reasonable person, I just feel that he is unnecessarily negative about PHEVs.
May 5th, 2009 (6:36 pm)CaptJack @ 160,
“OK if this car met NA standards, it would be worth buying then ripping out the gutts and slap in electric drive!!!!”
______________________________
First mod I’d make would be a stripper pole.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=4948747
May 5th, 2009 (6:41 pm)@carcus1 163
“First mod I’d make would be a stripper pole.”
AHAHAHAH!!!!!
So where do I get th silver Pole?
May 5th, 2009 (6:45 pm)# 138 jeffhre
So that’s how GM plans to meet its November deadline! I was wondering how they could be so certain. A couple of months either way doesn’t matter to me–I’d much rather they wait until the car is actually ready. But missing the deadline entirely could be a PR disaster at this point.
May 5th, 2009 (6:45 pm)CJack @ 164,
“So where do I get th silver Pole?”
_______________________
It could be any color, really. Stripper poles and tatas go together like peas and carrots.
Anything you want is on the net.
http://www.stripperdancepoles.com/
May 5th, 2009 (6:54 pm)@carcus1 166
“Anything you want is on the net.”
Yeah, the strippers you can find in Craigs List….
May 5th, 2009 (6:55 pm)@carcus1 166
I just hope the TaTa’s aren’t Nano…
AHAHAHAH!!!!!!
May 5th, 2009 (7:00 pm)CJack @ 168,
“I just hope the TaTa’s aren’t Nano…”
__________________________________
They might be small, but they’re USB powered!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqzVwuNKPmc
(I think I’m gonna get one a those.)
May 5th, 2009 (7:01 pm)#149 statik – You probably like the short part. Me not so much. I’ve done it maybe three times. Unlimited downside scares me to death. That aside, what you may find even more amusing is that Jim Cramer was on the show yelling about what a great buy Sunbeam was cause Chainsaw Al was a true business genius. You can’t make this stuff up.
Speaking of amusing, I see our “non-TARP” creditors in the Chrysler bankruptcy have stopped claiming they hold “over one billion” in secured debt and are now saying they they hold “nearly 300 million”. Should be interesting when we find out their identities tomorrow.
May 5th, 2009 (7:12 pm)# 139 N Riley
Government intervention on this level is hardly new to American capitalism. Conrail comes to mind. The first Chrysler bailout under Lee Iacocca. Then there was the government rescue during the Savings and Loan crisis of the late 80s. And the Air Transportation Stabilization Board monitored the airline bankruptcies after 911. I could go on…
But its very unlikely that any US president (or congress) would have ever let a company as big and important as GM go into bankruptcy without some sort of government monitoring (and dip financing if necessary.) One of GM’s biggest problems is that it failed during a credit crisis right after voters were already livid about AIG and the other bank bailouts.
May 5th, 2009 (7:17 pm)#162 ccombs.
Your prof is perfectly correct regarding ICE investment. There is still way too much investment going to ICE. I agree with his viewpoint entirely. However, the cost of technical purism, (no ICE whatsoever at all thank-you), would be too soon right now in an across-the-board changeover to BEV only, and would be a severe technical mistake at this point in time. This is because there would be no redundancy to prevent accidental damages to a very very large battery array by not having a range extender to prevent excessive and repetitive depletion of the pack in unexpected situations. This is because the public just wants (and expects and sometimes must be able to) get into a vehicle and keep on driving the pack nearly completely down with no regard to range limits.
You may need to interview some very up-front professionals in this regard in order to begin your research. You can contact me directly by looking me up in the Austin Texas directory (on Europa Lane), and, I will personally give you some names of very highly regarded and credentialed Electric Vehicle professionals who can provide you with the valuable insights you require for your paper.
Your paper ought to indeed be very accurate in addition to being unique.
Dan Petit Austin TX.
May 5th, 2009 (7:37 pm)#171 lauram
Yes, but no government ownership and no uaw ownership. As I have said before, loans are ok. Other than that I object to of. IMO…
May 5th, 2009 (7:44 pm)I’m gonna weigh in on the “most viable solution” thing real quick . . . .
Here’s the short version:
Aptera2e. Super slippery, super light. The most bang for your kwh buck.
Basically, it’s the only electric (BEV or Plug in Hybrid) at forseeale battery prices that competes with $2 gas. Mitsubishi imiev and electric focus run 2nd and third (assuming a 6 year battery life and 100+ mile range).
If the battery prices fall drastically (i.e. to the $300/kwh range) then all bets are off. It’ll be an electric car/ electric hybrid bonanza.
May 5th, 2009 (7:50 pm)#170 DonC
They used to hold over a billion before Parella (and others) left. Parella does a lot of consulting work for the US government, so I’m not sure if they can be considered a neutral party.
However, the only thing they’ve proved so far is that the creditors are worried about public opinion. Not that they don’t think they have a strong case. And now that the judge decided against them, the amount under consideration will probably go down further..
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aA1gBHS7oEMs
The only thing that proves is that Obama’s using his popularity and their lack thereof to force the bondholders into taking less than they’re legally entitled to in a liquidation.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=a6Zv4HFqjS3c
Otherwise, why not let the bankruptcy judge decide what Chrysler would be worth in a liquidation? That is his job. It’s called separation of powers.
That said, this will probably work. And Chrysler will “successfully restructure” very quickly Whether the Fiat deal has have any long term viability remains to be seen. And it will hurt GM and Ford’s chances. And I no longer consider them an “American car company.” So, I don’t consider this whole thing a “success.”
May 5th, 2009 (8:12 pm)# 173 N Riley
The government nationalized the railroads, and created Conrail in 1973. It became profitable 1981 (after several regulatory changes smoothed the way). They finally sold it to private investors in 1987. At the time, it was the largest IPO in history.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/business/16rail.html
By the way, there’s been a lot of discussion of the British government’s failed nationalization of Leyland. But the French takeover of Renault has been fairly successful.
Long term government ownership is obviously not the ideal solution. But it has been done before successfully. And, at this point, I don’t see much choice.
However, their chances would be a lot better if they didn’t include Chrysler. I really don’t see the point of saving them if they’re just going to hand all the upside to Fiat. And hurting the capital markets in the process.
May 5th, 2009 (8:20 pm)Well there is a $7500 tax credit, and the big savings in maintenance and fuel.. that should save you another $10,000..
Dont you want to give the finger to the arabs?
………………………….
#150 N Riley Says:
I could live with the 80 mph and 100 mile range, but at $45,000? No, that is just too much for what you are getting.
May 5th, 2009 (8:38 pm)144 DonC
Of course throwing more people at a problem helps. Just like adding more monitors to their desk will infinately increase production.
May 5th, 2009 (9:11 pm)#175
LauraM
However, their chances would be a lot better if they didn’t include Chrysler. I really don’t see the point of saving them if they’re just going to hand all the upside to Fiat. And hurting the capit175al markets in the process.
____________________
I agree 100%. Daimler paid a huge price and Chrysler was still gutted. If Fiat picks up a huge chunk for next to nothing, it’s safe to assume the company’s remaining North American assets will have a short shelf life.
If this proposed union even survives the current downturn, I can’t imagine it’s North American elements will have much utility in the next downturn, which may result in the culmination of giving Treasury dollars to an EU company for ultimately nothing in return.
May 5th, 2009 (9:28 pm)I don’t know who is interested in this kind of stuff, maybe LauraM and DonC, but Chrysler Financial (of all people) are mixing it up against it former self….which is amazing.
Basically Chrysler Financial is saying we own the books/loans on all the cars and all the dealers (who are not involved in this bankruptcy procedure)…oh, and we have a exclusivity deal with them all too, so we would kind of like GMAC to piss off already. And they also want to unseal the deal between GMAC and Chrysler that is in place.
/the longer this goes…the worse/more convuluted it gets
Sidenote: GMAC reported today…and blew their quarter (10th in a row). They lost 675 million. Which means they have won another government review, and the chance to go to the market to attempt to get more capital…which they won’t get. Hrm, I wonder where they can find more money? Hmmm. Dunno…that is a real tuffie.
May 5th, 2009 (9:37 pm)House of Cards.
there’s a lot more to come… just wait
This should indicate the Fritz Blitz bankruptcy isn’t going to work and should not be attempted. GM is a much bigger bear then Daifiacerb Chysler.
May 5th, 2009 (9:37 pm)carcus1
Thank – You . This was worth watching , all 3 parts.
CNN Video interview of BYD founder with test drive of F3DM
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/04/20/byd.wangchuanfu/index.html
(3 parts)
May 5th, 2009 (9:54 pm)that is a must see video!
May 5th, 2009 (10:05 pm)180mile all electric range, 72mph top speed and needs two days to charge with a normal household plug.
May 5th, 2009 (10:09 pm)oops.. 250 mile range and top speed 100mph
May 5th, 2009 (10:24 pm)Wang Chuanfu (BYD Chairman) “Yes we have a lot of government support and access to resources”
Build your dream (on the backs of Chinese slave labor)
May 5th, 2009 (10:40 pm)Everybody Wang Chuan tonight. My BYDDY investment’s been making huge gains recently. Time for a pull-back?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=1211.HK
May 5th, 2009 (10:45 pm)GM details plans to wipe out current shareholders!!!!!
GM to issue 60 billion new shares , in a move to wipe out share holders to a price = .015 After that GM reverse stock split that would give them one share of new stock for every 100 shares they currently own. The flood of new stock issuance that could be unleashed has been widely expected by analysts who have long warned that GM’s shares could be worthless whether the company restructures out of court or in bankruptcy. If gm does this I will never buy a GM product again .
May 5th, 2009 (11:01 pm)#187 jeff j
Should have swapped out of your GM into BYDDY.
May 5th, 2009 (11:21 pm)#187 Jeff J,
“GM to issue 60 billion new shares . . . ”
___________________________________
Admittedly, I don’t understand a whole lot about this GSB/bondholder/stockholder/defaultswap goat roap. But it does make me wonder if the shares weren’t just worthless to start with.
May 5th, 2009 (11:22 pm)#176 Herm Says, “…Dont you want to give the finger to the arabs?”
May I suggest that what we really want to do is to give the finger to trade deficits, foreign oil dependency, environmental damage, and terrorism, regardless of where these things come from?
May 5th, 2009 (11:50 pm)#70 Brian Says, “…For the vast majority of people in this recession, buying a new car is probably the worst thing they can do. It is always cheaper to keep the car you have now, even if it needs repairs. The initial depreciation hit and rapid value decline is too much to take on right now for most Americans, and sitting on the sidelines is the best thing they can do for themselves.”
Sitting on the sidelines and maintaining an old car is probably the safest and the most fiscally conservative thing to do, but saying that it is “best” is a bit presumptive.
Like any investment, with the car market risk and reward go hand-in-hand. Right now, it is risky to buy a car for many people because of uncertainty in their employment future and in the future of the automobile manufacturers ability to support the vehicle in the long term. But to balance that risk is the fact that it’s a buyer’s market, and there is superb value available like we may never see again in our lifetimes.
So if you are in the market for a new car, and you have reasonable job security (Over 90% are still employed.), I think now is the time to do it.
May 6th, 2009 (12:00 am)Whatever the schedule, my money can sit quietly waiting for the day I can drive my new Volt home. I really need a new car soon because the old one is 15 years old with 178K and it’s certainly not the prettiest 15 year old car on the road. Hopefully I can nurse it along for 2 more years…
May 6th, 2009 (1:17 am)#188
BYDDY have raise 100% start from April !!!!
May 6th, 2009 (6:06 am)We have said this before on this site.
Meeting the Nov. date seems to be a ridiculous proposition at this time. Maybe with 1 car as stated in 138, 139.
Well before GMs fortunes made the front pages, before our economic crisis wave actually hit the shores, GM and others were claiming that the schedule was very tight and that there was no room for error. The Volt was the equivalent of the moon shot.
WIth GM essentially bankrupt now and living only on Govt. handouts, how can they continue with a moon shot schedule?
GM is affected by this financial mess. They have two choices.
1. Cut corners on the Volt to meet schedule. Deliver a car that they could have or would have done a better job on if they were not bankrupt.
2. Delay the vehicle so that all testing and development can be accomplished in the way that the engineers want it to be.
May 7th, 2009 (10:44 pm)fourty five years ago ford motor company took the mustang from an idea to reality in eighteen months. here are the production numbers for the pony’s first three years
1966 – 607,568
1965 – 559,451
1964 – 121,538
i believe gm is much bigger now then ford was then the assembly line technology and robotics that exist today were absent back then, yet they produced these amazing numbers, imagine what half of these numbers would do for gm when the volt comes out
2013 – 300,000
2012 – 275,000
2011 – 60,000
i hope gm uses ford’s aggressive advertisement campaign and one night in November 2010 we will catch the same identical volt commercial on ABC, NBC, and CBS, heck maybe even FOX for good measure
the point is it can be done, if the desire is truely there
May 8th, 2009 (9:01 am)The company I work at has just received orders for building tooling for the Volt. This tooling is for smaller type brackets that go inside the vehicle that no one ever sees. Most of our tooling orders for the Volt have due dates from September 2009 to December 2009. Those due dates are with everything going fine and without changes. With changes in the parts I could see deliveries going out to October 2009 to February 2010. Then samples are run and then assembled to make sure everything fits and functions. (PPAP) It would be very difficult for GM to get the Volt out sooner than the mid November time frame, in my opinion, without paying a huge premium. Also, with some of the issues I am sure they are having, this gives them time to get those sorted out and fixed. There will be a lot of eyes on this project when completed and GM wants to make sure it’s right!
Not to get off subject, but Charles Lane article in the Washington Post was a joke. He knows nothing about the automotive industry. Look at his background. Why he was chosen to write such a terrible article is beyond me. He is part of that “eastern establishment” that hasn’t a clue how the world turns.
May 8th, 2009 (10:41 am)@6 Tibor
Quote:
(
You people in the USA might never have heard about the Renault Laguna II. The Renault Laguna II was “developed faster than any car in the history before! Just 18 months”… well, people who bought it did notice it, too…
Thus I rather wait until 2010…2011…or whenever the Volt finally turns up here in Europe. But I want a well-tested, well-built, preferably non-exploding car!
I’m sure GM will use its fleet of prototype cars in 2010 for all kinds of publicity stunts. I’m pretty sure Jay Leno will end up driving around in one. And Tom Hanks (wasn’t he the one who had an EV-1 before?). And perhaps even our own Lyle
)
- HELLO, wtf are you talking.. Yes we could notice it was the ” first” car who had 5 stars in euroNcap test… 18 months development yes.
They had troubles with engine yes.. they improved that later on.